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#1SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
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♦ Malan
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I


Please do not send me private messages unless you have found an error in this post or have a suggestion for an update. Do not ask me to a) rank your armory, b) read your WWS parse, c) validate some weird ass theory you have, or d) provide you "maths" to prove something. I have neither time, nor interest, in pretty much anything you're going to PM me about.

If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post and use the search tool before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked has been answered. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.


An Enhancement Shaman is an integral part of any melee group. Besides offering substantial personal DPS, an Enhancement Shaman brings group specific buffs through talents beyond those offered by a Resto Shaman. These include Unleashed Rage (an on-crit proc for 10% additional melee AP), Strength of Earth (+97 STR) Windfury (20% proc instant attack with extra AP), and Grace of Air (+88 AGI). Enhancement shamans are equally useful in a main tank group, offering increased dodge and armor, or increased threat generation.

An Enhancement Shaman is not a melee healer. While many will have a resto sub-spec and can certainly help top off a group after an AoE or step in to prevent an emergency, their gear's focus on melee stats makes them unsuitable healers in the endgame. An Enhancement Shaman should be dedicated to DPS, maximizing Unleashed Rage and totem coverage for his group.

Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:
  • Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
  • Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
  • Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
  • Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage
The vast majority (75-80%) of a shaman's damage comes from autoattack and Windfury. Shamans also have three on-crit procs: the aforementioned UR, Flurry (3 attacks at +30% speed) and a special clearcasting state for shocks.

Enhancement shaman are highly gear dependent, perhaps more so than any other DPS class. The 'skill' required to be effective at the class manifests in proper gear selection prior to combat; during combat the amount of 'skill' to produce respectable DPS consists mainly of staying in contact with the mob and maintaining totem coverage. This gives an Enhancement Shaman a great deal of latitude while DPSing since there are a limited number of actions that we can perform while waiting on Stormstrike and Shock cooldowns, allowing many possible global cooldowns to be used for purging mobs or removing poison/disease debuffs with no interruption of the DPS cycle.

Things we know about patch 2.4
(Or, Don't post this stuff again because we've already seen it)
  • Totem UI allows individual totems to be destroyed, and is accessible through the API for macros/mods.
  • Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons.
  • [Mounting Vengeance], drops off Sunwell trash, is the 2.4 Best in Slot OH weapon.
  • Ghost wolf will be insta-cast if you max the T2 talent (alternate place to spend the 2 pts in Anticipation)
  • The T6 belt/boots/bracers have had all stamina removed and replaced with Expertise. We will be able to cap expertise using these 3 items and the Shard of Contempt.
  • [Shard of Contempt] from heroic Magister's Terrace will be as good, or better than, the DST.
  • Shamanistic Rage in the latest build is no longer a magic effect and isn't dispellable
  • Stamina added back to the T6 belt/boots/bracers, they still have expertise

Contents
1 Major Abilities
1.1 Windfury Weapon
1.1.1 Weapon Speed Interaction
1.1.2 Windfury Proc Rate
1.1.3 Can Windfury Totem avoid the cooldown problem?
1.2 Flametongue and Frostband Viability?
1.3 Stormstrike
1.4 Elemental Shocks
2 Talent Builds
2.2 The Myth of Elemental Devastation
3 Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman
3.1 Enhancement Points (EP) Stat Weight System
3.1.1 Using EP - Examples
3.1.2 Hit Rating
3.1.3 Haste Rating
3.1.4 Intellect and Mp5
3.1.5 Expertise Rating
3.2 Weapons
3.2.1 Main Hand
3.2.2 Off Hand
3.2.3 TwoHand Viability
3.3 Relics
3.4 Gems and Meta Gems
3.5 Trinkets
3.6 Enchanting your Gear
3.6.1 Weapon Enchants
3.6.2 Agility vs Run Speed for Boots
3.6.3 Enchants for the rest of your gear
3.7 Consumables
4 Enhancement Shaman in a group
4.1 How to choose totems
4.1.1 Totem Twisting
4.2 Managing your threat
5 Notes for Raid Leaders
5.1 Group compositions that work
5.2 Evaluating with WoW Web Stats
6 Simulations
7 Useful Links and Addons
8 Changelog


1. Major Abilities
1.1 Windfury Weapon
Windfury Weapon was corrected in the 2.1 patch link Windfury on the main and off hands. At some point prior to that, a hidden/internal 3 second cooldown had been added to Windfury Weapon. As a result, OH procs now (correctly) trigger the cooldown on the MH. Despite this set back to shaman DPS (net loss of about 10-15% DPS for enhancement shaman), Windfury Weapon is still the best weapon imbue to use – former CM Tseric has stated that the devs have no plans to scale the other weapon buffs to match Windfury. [footnote]http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=102731970&pageNo=1&sid=1#0[/footnote]

1.1.1 Weapon Speed Interaction
Weapon Speeds play an important role in maximizing DPS from Windfury procs. The goal is to chain WF procs every 3 seconds, as soon as each cooldown ends. Both the OH and the MH need to be as slow as possible to achieve this(they do not need to be matched in speed, just as slow as you can get it). The idea is to reduce the number of swings made during the time that windfury is on cooldown. Since the cooldown is 3 seconds, weapons speeds are preferred to be close to that speed, generally this means 2.6 - 2.8 under current itemization. The idea is that a faster weapon would proc a WF, and then strike again within the cooldown window, which means that windfury would exit cooldown and your weapon would still be on some significant portion of its swing timer, unable to proc another WF.

Many shaman will correctly use a slow MH weapon but use a fast OH such as a dagger, generally because its easier to find fast OHs than slow ones. This combination however means that your OH is much more likely to be the first one to hit outside of a WF cooldown and will "steal" the potential chance to proc, placing your main hand on lockdown. In order to maximize the potential for MH procs the OH needs to be as slow as possible.

The image below courtesy of Yo! illustrates this principle. You can see that as the MH and OH approach 2.6 speed (arbitrarily chosen as the cut off point for the scale) that the number of WF procs lost to the OH become lower, at around a 45% predicted loss rate. A fast OH with a slow MH combination has a higher rate of loss to the OH, at nearly 55%.


1.1.2 Windfury Proc Rate
When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%, if and only if both weapons are imbued with Windfury. (Original findings were posted on the WoW forums by Disquette, the thread has been removed from the official archives)

Analysis of the combat log shows that if you sum all hits, the proc rate while DWing is 20%, but that includes hits you make while inside the 3 second cooldown, which cannot actually proc WF. When you remove the ineligible hits the observed proc rate from the eligible hits becomes 36%.

1.1.3 Can Windfury Totem avoid the cooldown problem?
While you may ~think~ it will help you avoid the WF cooldown problem, the totem isn't providing anywhere near the benefit you'll get from the weapon imbue.
WF Totem has the following issues: no elemental weapons bonus (40% multiple), only one extra attack (200% multiple), lesser AP bonus (scalar). Each MH WF Totem hit would be 100% extra damage or so compared to a normal attack, and has only one chance of proc'ing flurry, any weapon procs, and UR. Each MH WF imbue hit would be 280% extra damage or so compare to a normal attack, and has 2 chances of proc'ing those things.
In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.

1.2 Flametongue and Frostband Viability?
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1.3 Stormstrike
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1.4 Elemental Shocks
There are 2 possible rotations that an Enhancement shaman can use. Initially most shaman will assume that with the Stormstrike nature damage bonus Earth Shock spam will yield more DPS. However, Earth Shock is a binary spell and is susceptible to full resists, whereas Flame Shock has no binary component and will benefit from partial resist rates due to spell hit. Additionally, Flame Shock benefits from Curse of Elements and the Improved Scorch Debuff, while Earth Shock is only amplified by Stormstrike. (Both benefit from Misery)

In determining the ideal rotation, let us assume a sandbox environment with no crits and no resists to worry about. The mob will be fully raid debuffed with CoE and Malediction, Misery, and Improved Scorch Debuff. Assume that Earth Shock always has the benefit of Stormstrike, and that the Enhance Shaman in question has 2500 Attack Power, yielding 750 spell damage (approximate) with the Mental Quickness talent. Earth Shock has a spell damage coefficient of 0.42 and Flame Shock has a coefficient of 0.67.

Earth Shock Spam
This is a 6 second cycle.
\frac {0.42 \times 750 + 675}{6} \times 1.26 = 207.9

Flame - Earth Rotation
This is a 12 second cycle that begins with Flame Shock.
\left (\frac{0.67 \times 750 + 797}{12} \times 1.36\right) + \left (\frac {0.42 \times 750 + 675}{12} \times 1.26 \right ) = 355.2

While a single earth shock in 6 seconds is worth more than a single flame shock that is allowed to go its full 12 second DoT, the combination of the two in a single, 12 second rotation, provides superior DPS.

Finally as a third point of comparison, let us compare Earth Shock to Flame Shock directly, using only 6 seconds of the DoT component of Flame Shock. Earth Shock was computed above as providing 207.9 DPS every 6 seconds.
\frac {0.67 \times 750 + (377 + 0.5(420))}{6} \times 1.36 = 246.9
Therefore, you can see that Flame Shock over a 6 second period provides more DPS than Earth Shock.

2 Talent Builds
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2.1 Elemental or Resto sub-spec
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2.2 The Myth of Elemental Devastation
One of the more prevalent suggestions is that Enhance Shaman should optimize their DPS by speccing into Elemental for a 5 second shock cooldown, 5% increased shock damage, and of course the Elemental Devastation Talent, typically achieved by removing points from Mental Quickness and/or Improved Weapon Totems for an 18/43/0 build.

The logic of this build is fundamentally flawed. A properly geared Enhancement Shaman will have at most a 6% spell crit rate from Intellect. Under perfect conditions this will amount to a 1% crit gain from Elemental Devastation. Under not-so-perfect conditions, this talent would be negligible and worthless to an Enhancement shaman.
The probability of getting 2 crit shocks in a row at 6% spell crit, in order to sustain the extra melee crit bonus of Elemental Devastation, is 1-(1- 0.6)^2 = 0.118. That's about 12% uptime of an extra 1% crit from 3 talent points.

3. Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman
3.1 Enhancement Points (EP) Stat Weight System
Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Disquette, Pater, Tornhoof, and Yo! have led to the development of a system for determining the items which produce the highest DPS in a raid environment. The Enhancement Points (EP) system assigns weights or scores to each stat point. These EP weights can then be used by hand or in automated programs such as Enhancer, Pawn, LootRank and Thottbot to score items. Today, the best tool for determining these weights is to use the Crazy Shaman's DPS & EP Calculator produced by forums member Yo! For those who cannot run the simulator, are unwilling to do the legwork, or just want to check their own numbers, the following sets of EP values are provided:

Entry Raid (T4) EP Values
If you have just hit level 70 or have been running some heroics for a while but have not started raiding KZ and 25 mans yet, your EP stat weights will be significantly different from shamans wearing high-end gear. Use these values until you have progressed into SSC/TK beyond the first 1-2 bosses. These values were arrived at using simulation of a shaman wearing best of slot quest and instance blues, with some heroic loot. Buffs were limited to what a 10 man raid would normally have - no Kings, no LotP, no flasks, and assumed lower quality gems and enchants.

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP
Agility = 1.74 EP
Crit Rating = 1.97 EP
Hit Rating = 1.34 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.28 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.22 EP
Expertise Rating = see the Expertise section below for an explanation

Middle Raid (T5) EP Values
These values are a generally agreed-upon set produced by the average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations across the breadth of shaman gearing possibilities. They rapidly become less accurate as you accumulate more pieces of T5-level gear. As such, using Yo's simulator to obtain individualized EP numbers is strongly advised. Note that Blessing of Kings increases the contribution of Strength and Agility by 10% and thus their EPs when it is active.

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
Expertise Rating = see the Expertise section below for an explanation

High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)

Weapon DPS EP Values
Pitbuller and Rob have shown that it is possible to convert weapon DPS into EP values. This is useful to compute the total EP of a weapon in order to compare two weapons, as seen in this post (link to where you or someone compared Netherbane to MG Cleaver). The following values are only valid for a 2.6 speed weapon. EP would need to be recalculated for any other speeds. These are presented here because 2.6 is the most common speed for weapons.

1 MH DPS = 9.03 EP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 EP

Careful! Only use these numbers for comparing weapons; do not use them for drawing other conclusions. For example, these numbers do not mean that 9 AP = 1 DPS for enhancement shamans. Why? Note the distinction between EP and AP. 9 AP will in fact increase your DPS by more than 1; just as 1 weapon DPS will increase your overall DPS by more than 1. To understand why, imagine that 1 weapon DPS increases your DPS by exactly 1 after glances, misses, dodges, and crits are accounted for. Now throw in Flurry, WF procs, and Stormstrike and realize that the weapon is hitting more often than the tooltip says it is, so you gain more DPS from the nominal weapon DPS.
3.1.1 Using EP - Examples
First, you must make a decision whether or not to assume that you will have Blessing of Kings. As a general rule, Salvation and Might are superior buffs, so you can only expect Kings in a 25-man scenario. In this example, we’re comparing 25-man gear, so we’ll assume Blessing of Kings is active and use the T5 EP Values. Then, it’s a simple matter of looking at the stats available on each item, multiplying them by their attack power equivalence, and adding them all up:

[Valestalker Girdle]
+27 Agility (x 2 = 54)
+25 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Equip: Improves haste rating by 36 (x 1.4 = 50.4)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76 (x 1 = 76)
Total: 180.4 EP

[Girdle of the Tidal Call]
+35 Strength (x 2.2 = 77)
+30 Stamina
+20 Intellect
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 33 (x 2 = 66)
Total: 143 EP

So, Valestalker Girdle (180.4 EP) is a larger increase to melee DPS than Girdle of Tidal Call (143 EP); for our purposes, we’ll say that makes it a better item. Note that values are not assigned here to Stamina or Intellect; these stats do carry some value for raiding enhancement shamans, but any assignment of value to them would be arbitrary and is for each individual shaman to decide on her own.

Now lets compare two weapons using the weapon EP values.
[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]
97.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 880.4) (OH: x3.70 = 360.75)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10. (x1.4 = 14)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x2 = 38)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30. (x1 = 30)
Total MH EP = 962.4
Total OH EP = 442.75

[Netherbane]
96.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 871.4) (OH: x3.7 = 357)
+25 Agility (x2 = 50)
+21 Stamina
Equip: Increases attack power by 40. (x1 = 40)
Total MH EP = 961.4
Total OH EP = 447.05

Comparing the two weapons we can see that the difference in the MH for each weapon is relatively minor with a 1 EP difference, but in the OH the Netherbane performs better with a 5 EP difference.

3.1.2 Hit Rating
Hit Rating is a subject of much anxiety among Enhancement Shaman. Hit Rating is valuable, but beyond hit capping your special attacks it provides less benefit per point to our damage than an equivalent item budget amount of AP, Crit, Haste, or Expertise.

Since we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 40%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence. Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

A common misconception is that you "have to hit before you can crit." This is a fallacy and illustrates a misunderstanding of the attack table. (Note that this is in reference to white damage which uses a single roll system.) Your Hit Rating will not impact your Crit Rate in any way.

A second misconception is that a miss is a "missed opportunity for a WF proc" and that more Hit Rating will generate more WF procs. This misconception is generated from the flawed assumption that all swings are possible WF procs. However only swings that are outside of the WF cooldown are eligible to proc WF. A good portion of your autoattack hits will never be capable of producing WF procs. A 5 minute fight with no flurry would see 115 white swings with a 2.6 speed weapon. A Shaman might look at that and think that 0.36 * 115 = 41 possible WF procs, but that is incorrect since each successful proc locks out 1-2 hits that follow, shrinking the pool of actual eligible hits. It is actually quite difficult to calculate the number of attacks that you *should* have producing WF in a given amount of time, and that is why we rely on simulators to generate the EP value of Hit Rating.

There is no magic value of +Hit that an Enhance Shaman needs We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others. That does not mean that the goal is to have low hit rating either though. Rogues and Warriors require large amounts of +Hit to be effective because of their rage and combo point systems, and because they do not have talents that can hit cap their specials before considering hit on gear. Enhance shaman have no such feedback system and are able to hit cap specials through talents - therefore, hit rating above and beyond your talents is great to have, but is not a necessity.

3.1.3 Haste Rating
Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS. Prior to patch 2.2 Haste Rating became the superior stat, but the 2.3 patch reduced its EP value closer to that of Hit Rating.

Modeling at one time indicated weapons hasted between 1.51 and 1.41 speed will actually experience a sharp decrease in potential Windfury DPS. The range of 1.51- 1.41 speed was believed to cause the main hand to always finish a swing just before the end of a WF cooldown, making you wait longer for the next eligible swing that can proc WF. If hasted in this period for a long duration, you could expect WF DPS contribution to decrease. However, you'll also experience many more white swings during that time, and so the loss of potential WF procs should be offset by the increased white DPS. It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.

3.1.4 Intellect and Mp5
Intellect on gear is not a significant source of DPS contribution. Pater has a short writeup exploring this here.
Mp5 is almost universally agreed to be a hunter stat that is wasted on enhance shaman gear. Note that the more you decide to contribute in a "hybrid" manner (healing to top off yourself and others) the mana pool will become slightly more important, but not such that you should sacrifice significant DPS upgrades to hold on to 15 Int on another item. The combination of Judgment of Wisdom and Shamanistic Rage (use it early, use it often) should prevent you from running out of mana even in full rogue leather gear - unless you're having to spot heal.

3.1.5 Expertise Rating
Patch 2.3 will change all weapon skill rating into weapon expertise rating, which converts into Expertise skill at a rate of 3.95 expertise rating:1 Expertise, and reduces the chance for your target to dodge and parry by 0.25% per point of Expertise. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], which used to provide 10 dagger skill rating, will now provide 10 expertise rating (all weapons).

The parry reduction element of Expertise will have only marginal use in raid settings: mobs cannot parry attacks made from behind. Many bosses randomly turn to cast attacks and can parry while turning, but this possibility is too random to value significantly. Unlike parry, mobs can dodge attacks from behind and Expertise is currently the only way to reduce the number of dodges. The dodge reduction element of Expertise will vary from encounter to encounter: it will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian, Reliquary of Souls) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Expertise has been shown to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, so under the second circumstance it is actually more useful than hit rating for enhancement shamans.

We still don't know how Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll white attack table. For now, the community is assuming that it converts dodges and parries into hits that do not have a chance to crit. On the other hand, we are now confident that Expertise will allow yellow attacks to crit, since they are resolved through a two-roll system. Thus, we will estimate expertise rating to be similar to the weight of hit rating, with some exceptions.

First, expertise rating is only useful in chunks, because there is no concept of having 2.5 Expertise - the Skill values are all rounded down to whole integers. To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again. This gives you a "white hit rating" equivalency. Note that this makes expertise rating EP discontinuous. One expertise rating may be worth 0 EP because it is not enough to give you an extra skill point -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating -- while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have a surprisingly high EP -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction.

Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. Finally, we must multiply by the EP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into EP.

Our final expertise calculation is:
EP =  \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {\text {Yellow\%} \times (1 + \text{Crit\%}) + \text{White\%}}{\text {White\%}} \times \text {Hit EP}

Example Calculation:
Assume that we are examining a new piece of gear that will bring our total Expertise Rating to 17, Hit EP is 1.4, Crit% is 30%, White% of DPS is 50%, Yellow% of DPS is 40% and the remaining 10% is shocks and searing totem.

Expertise EP = \lfloor \frac {17}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {40 \times 1.30 + 50}{50} \times 1.4
Expertise EP = 45.12
Note that this value is not the EP stat weight of Expertise Rating, it is the total sum worth of the Expertise Rating on all your gear.
3.2 Weapons
Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes little difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.

3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Orcs should prioritize axes for the +5 Expertise racial bonus. This is believed to be applied per hand non stacking, so an axe/mace combo only applies expertise to the axe, and an axe/axe combo would apply 5 Expertise to each hand.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

3.2.2Off Hand
OH itemization is fairly poor early on, but recent changes in patch 2.3 have added several new options in KZ and ZA that will help fill the gaps. If you are not yet raiding, the best choices for OH in a WF/WF setup is a 2.6 speed Gladiator weapon from Arenas, a crafted Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) or a blue one-hand weapon available in several heroic instances (Auchenai Crypts last boss drops a 2.6 speed one-hand axe). Failing that, get yourself a green 2.6 speed off the Auction House.

An epic dagger with high dps (such as [Malchazeen] or [Guile of Khoraazi])and imbued with Flametongue can be used to temporarily replace a green or blue OH weapon. This comes at the cost of reduced Windfury procs, reduced Stormstrike damage, and a reduction in Flurry uptime. This should be seen as a stopgap measure only, not a weapon that you should commit to using for long periods of time.

Current best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]).
A [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] comprise the 2nd best options available.
Rounding out the list are [Netherbane] or [Fury] as your third choice options.

3.2.3 TwoHand Viability
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations, and reasonably poor for PvP as well. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. 9% +Hit while DWing through a 0/42/19 build allows all special attacks to be hit capped through talents alone, while a 2H will only receive 3% of the hit benefit. DW also scales better with AP. 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. The more +hit you have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base DPS of a 2H weapon over similar ilevel 1H weapons.

The second largest benefit you bring to your group is Unleashed Rage, and your Flurry and UR uptime will take a large hit from using a 2H, as strings of dodge/miss/non crits become compounded by a single, slower swing time. Threat concerns are even more problematic with a 2H because of large WF procs, requiring that you heavily pad your threat against a tank.

And finally, as mentioned in the Windfury Proc section, DW with WF on both weapons results in an increased chance to proc WF off either hand (36%). 2H weapons will not benefit from that increased proc rate.

To illustrate:

Note the differences here. 2H has a higher flurry uptime because DWing will consume the 3 charges faster, but the Uptime for UR is much higher for DW than 2H, leading to greater group synergy.

Derivation of the Unleashed Rage uptime:
UR Uptime = \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit\%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns}}{\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns}}{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry}))) \times \text {Windfury} + 1}

Windfury = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

Flurry Uptime = \left (1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})

3.3 Relics
The two best choices are [Totem of the Astral Winds] and [Stonebreaker's Totem]

A: Astral Winds EP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker EP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
B1: Stonebreaker EP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker EP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker EP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 4.8/16.8 = 0.286
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 2/16.8 = 0.119
Percent_of_white_Swings = 10/16.8 = 0.595
(This breakdown is conservatively in favor of the Astral Winds Totem. Many WWS parses from raids show the balance slightly shifted away from WF towards white swings)

A: 32
B1: 44
B2: 13
B3: 65 * (1 - Missrate)

A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
32 = Uptime * (44 + 13 + [ 65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Let Missrate = 19%
Then Uptime = 29%

As miss rate decreases, so does the required uptime to break even. An enhancement shaman with +9% hit from talents and no hit rating on gear would see a 19% miss rate against boss mobs, resulting in a required uptime of 29%.
Changing some values for more hit gear, we find that even if your miss rate is better than 2% the required uptime is 26.4%. This gives us a fairly good window of possible required uptimes for the Stonebreaker buff over a wide variety of gear, with a good conservative estimate being 30%.

Now what does it take to achieve a 30% uptime? Here’s a simplified formula for determining this.

(Seconds per Shock) = (Stonebreaker proc chance) * (1-Spell miss rate) * (Stonebreaker duration) * (1/Stonebreaker Uptime)

(Seconds per Shock) = (0.50)*(1-0.14)*(1/0.30) = 14.3

This means that on average, a shock every 14.3 seconds is the minimum needed to maintain 30% uptime on the totem buff and thus make it come out ahead of the Astral Winds totem.

Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown.

3.4 Gems and Meta Gems
In general, [Bold Living Ruby] should fill every socket unless there is a socket bonus that does not require using a Blue gem color, and where the socket bonus is worth more EP than what the loss of the dps stats on the blue gem would be.

If you are matching gems for socket bonuses, use the following:
Red socket: [Bold Living Ruby].
Yellow socket:[Inscribed Noble Topaz].
Blue socket: [Sovereign Nightseye].

The [Rigid Dawnstone] is always the wrong answer for enhance shaman.
The [Bold Living Ruby] will always be better then [Bright Living Ruby] in a raid environment due to Blessing of Kings.

Naturally the epic BT/Hyjal versions of these gems follow the same logic and you should be able to extrapolate which gems to use.

[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond], Best choice for a meta gem. This gem will scale with your crit rating. The 3% crit damage can be roughly approximated to raise your DPS by 0.03 * Crit Rate. At 30% crit rate this amounts to nearly a 1% gain in damage dealt.

[Thundering Skyfire Diamond] gives 240 haste rating for 6 seconds. This is your second choice for meta gems as it appears to have a 1 minute cooldown. Shaman with lower crit rates (20% or lower, geared in heroic/blue gear, just starting 25mans and KZ) will benefit slightly more from this gem over the RED.

[Swift Skyfire Diamond] will yield a very minor DPS increase - same for [Potent Unstable Diamond]

3.5 Trinkets
Trinket gains are converted using the EP formulas above in the itemization stat weights from above, and listed as greatest EP at the top.
  • [Dragonspine Trophy] 160.25 EP = ( 40 + ( 325 * HasteRating * 10 * 1.5 / 60 ))
    Assuming a 1.5 PPM
  • [Berserker's Call] New drop from Zul'Aman. 150 EP = 90 + ( 360 * 20 / 120)
  • [Madness of the Betrayer] 142 EP = ( 84 + ( 20 * HitRating ) + ( 2.4 * 10 / 60 * 300 * ArmorPenetration ))
    Using 2.4 PPM (see here) the uptime is 40% giving a passive -120 Armor
  • [Tsunami Talisman] 141 EP = (( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 38 * CritRating ) + ( 340 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
    Assuming a 0.9 PPM
  • [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] 137.5 EP = ( 275 * 10 * 0.5 / 10 )
    Corrected in patch 2.3 to have the listed 50% proc rate, and observed at this rate on the PTR.
  • [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 EP
    At a full stack, since this will take 10-15 sec to achieve, the EP might be considered less valuable.
  • [Bloodlust Brooch] 118.3 EP = ( 72 + ( 278 * 20 / 120 ))
  • [Hourglass of the Unraveller] 109 EP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
    Assuming a 0.9 PPM
  • [Abacus of Violent Odds] 96 EP = ( 64 + ( 260 * HasteRating * 10 / 120 ))
  • [Drake Fang Talisman] 84 EP = ( 56 + ( 20 * HitRating ))
  • [Kiss of the Spider] 79 EP = (( 14 * CritRating ) + ( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 200 * HasteRating * 15 / 120 ))
  • [Romulo's Poison Vial] 49 EP = ( 35 * HitRating )
    And some unknown value from the nature damage proc, which is usually 1-2% of your damage. Unless you're totally starved for +Hit this probably isn't a trinket for shaman. Especially as you become better geared the proc will become less and less of your total damage done since it cannot scale with your gear. This trinket was most certainly designed with warriors and rogues in mind, not shaman.
  • [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] The value of this card is low once your buffed crit rate is 30% or higher.

3.6 Enchanting your Gear
3.6.1 Weapon Enchants
[Enchant Weapon - Mongoose] 4.8% crit per proc (double procs stack) and 2% haste.
[Enchant Weapon - Crusader] provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency] is a constant +20 Strength (40 AP).

Clearly Mongoose is the preferred enchant, although Crusader can be a cheaper, but still effective alternative. Potency should be completely avoided.

[Enchant Weapon - Executioner] is roughly equivalent at high T5/T6 levels of gearing to a single enchant of Mongoose. However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.

Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended, since this deviates from how other weapon enchants function. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable.

Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%

3.6.2 Agility vs Run Speed for Boots
For PvE, either [Formula: Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Formula: Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Derivation:
Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds.
So for a 5 minute fight if you spend roughly 4 seconds moving between adds, running to the boss, etc, Run Speed provides a superior DPS benefit.

3.6.3 Enchants for the rest of your gear
Asked often enough that it ends up needing its own section. These are the enchants contributing the most to DPS. Stength is always preferred over AP due to the effects of BoK.

Helm - Glyph of Ferocity (34 AP, 16 Hit)
Shoulders - Greater Inscription of the Blade (15 Crit, 20 AP) or Greater Inscription of Vengeance (30 AP, 10 Crit)
Cloak - Greater Agility (+12 Agi) or Subtlety (-2% Threat) if you feel threat constrained
Chest - Exceptional Stats (+6 Str/Agi)
Bracers - Brawn (+12 Strength)
Gloves - Major Strength (+15 Strength)
Rings - (Enchanter Only) Stats (+4 Str/Agi)
Legs - Nethercobra Leg Armor (50 AP, 12 Crit)

3.7 Consumables
Translating the benefit of consumables using EP values we can assess DPS consumables in order of greatest benefit:
Potions on 2 minute timers:
4 Enhancement Shaman in a group
4.1 How to choose totems
In a 5-man party your DPS is generally limited by the threat that your tank can produce. The most efficient way to increase small party DPS is to provide the tank with more threat. Totems should be chosen that compliment the tank, rather than the rest of the party, even it if means only 1 player is receiving benefit from the totem. Priority of totems always goes to the tank in small groups.

Warrior and Paladin tanks should always receive Windfury, unless they are severely under-geared and need the extra armor/dodge just to survive. Rationale for using GoA for a Warrior or Paladin tank should never be to provide crit. Feral druids that are tanking should always be given GoA.

In a raid setting this becomes slightly more complicated as bastardized groups are thrown together. Recommendation is to follow this set of rules:

Rule 1 - If you are ever in doubt about which Air totem should be used, your raid leader has probably failed to put together a complimentary group. Reference the Group Compositions That Work section for details on putting groups together. Encourage proper group compositions for maximum benefit to the raid.

Rule 2 - If a DPS warrior is in your group, he needs Windfury for his rage feedback mechanism. Windfury provides a larger DPS gain to a DPS warrior than any other totem to any other class.

Rule 3 - If you are in the Main Tank group, the warriors should be given Windfury unless it is a non-threat limited fight where survivability is more important. Prot Paladin tanks will benefit more from Wrath of Air and Feral Druids that are tanking should obviously receive Grace of Air.

Rule 4 - If there is no Warrior, but 2 or more Combat Sword Rogues are in the group, they will benefit slightly more from Windfury from increased opportunities for Sword Spec procs, than from Grace of Air.

Rule 5 - If your group has no warrior, and 2 or more Feral Druids or Hunters, Grace of Air is the totem of choice.

4.1.1 Totem Twisting
Sometimes the best way to solve a conflict of interest in a group is to give everyone what they want. Note that Blizzard has stated that Totem Twisting is considered a bug, and plan to remove the ability to do this in a future patch.

Windfury Totem places a 9 second buff on party member's weapons to imbue them with the extra attack mechanic. This can be manipulated to allow Grace of Air or Tranquil Air totems to be placed "simultaneously" with Windfury Totem.

You'll most likely want a macro to do this if you so choose, and a mod to track the time remaining on the windfury buff. A common one looks like this:
/castsequence reset=8 [combat] Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem
Totem Twisting has both its advocates and its detractors, it is not an agreed upon mechanic or strategy.
Pros:
  • Party gains 88 Agility or extra threat reduction
  • Overall DPS of the party is increased
Cons:
  • The shaman increases time spent in global cooldown, impairing his ability to decurse or purge mobs.
  • The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds while Stormstriking is roughly 14,000 mana every 2 minutes. This will limit the ability to use shocks, and requires very careful timing of Shamanistic Rage, may require JoW from a paladin, and definitely requires 5 points in Totemic Mastery.
  • Until you are very practiced with the technique you will find your attention devoted to watching the timers which means you will be less attentive to changes in the game environment
  • Latency or simply being late to refresh the Windfury totem will cause the Windfury buff to run off your party's weapons, which means they are losing opportunities for a Windfury proc.

4.2 Managing your threat
Enhance Shaman are severely threat capped - not as badly as a Ret Paladin, but worse than a DPS warrior. With no active threat reduction we rely on buffs, items, and strategy to reduce our threat. Methods to reduce your threat are listed below in order of Most to Least effective. Remember that threat reduction is multiplicative, not additive.
  • Spirit Weapons - Enhancement talent that reduces melee threat by 30%. This is a staple talent for our spec. If you don't have this, you're walking the crazy line. Most effective since its always on and isn't reliant on a paladin.
  • Blessing of Salvation - 30% threat reduction. If you only have one paladin in your raid, this is the buff you need. If you don't have a paladin in your horde raid, you need to pressure your leadership to recruit one.
  • [Prism of Inner Calm] - until Blizzard changes this the item is worth around 10% threat reduction as long as your raid buffed crit rate is over 30% (and by the time you're killing Vashj it damn well better be). Keep an eye on this as Blizzard may buff it at some point.
  • Strategy - A lot of this depends on your tank and his TPS generation. If your tank can generate around 800 TPS you can give him a 10k threat lead and then unload without much worry of catching up. If you find yourself approaching the threat cap you should stop shocking first since they aren't affected by Spirit Weapons. A suggestion was made of "downranking" your weapons for a few seconds, allowing you to continue to provide Unleashed Rage to the group with lowbie weapons so that your threat isn't increasing.
  • Battle Ankh - the improved ankh talent can certainly come in handy when clearing raid zones. You need to be extremely careful about pulling aggro however - if you pull and die, the mob will pick the next highest threat target to attack, which may not be the tank. A much safer method is to allow yourself to die to AoE, and have buffers primed to give you DPS buffs when you ankh. At that point you'll be free to take Blessing of Might if you didn't have it before, since your tank will now have a hefty threat lead.

5 Notes for Raid Leaders
[u][b][size=+1]5.1 Group compositions that work[u][b][size=+1]
While building groups for Enhancement Shaman its important to remember that while we are a support class, we also require support from other group members to enhance our own DPS. Battle Shout is one of the most important buffs that Enhancement Shaman require, followed by Blessing of Salvation/Might.

There are three possible group configurations that can make use of an Enhancement Shaman, listed below in order of the magnitude of buff they would bring to your raid as a whole.

Melee Group
Enhancement Shaman (Windfury Totem)
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue/Feral Druid/BM Hunter/MM Hunter/Ret paladin
Fury or MS Warrior

The Melee Group is the top priority to receive an Enhancement Shaman, it is where we provide the most utility.

Tank Hybrid Group
Enhancement Shaman (Windfury Totem)
Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Prot Paladin or Feral Druid
Tree Druid

This group brings an increased threat window for the rest of the raid, allowing the DPS classes to attack earlier and at full force, and should be the second priority for an Enhancement Shaman if you're able to bring 2 to a raid. If the Warrior or Paladin is the Main Tank, Windfury should be used. If the Feral is the Main Tank for an encounter, Grace of Air should be used.

Hunter/Feral Hybrid Group
Enhancement Shaman (Grace of Air Totem)
Hunter
Hunter
Hunter
Feral Druid

This should be an extremely rare situation since very few guilds would ever have room in a roster for a third Enhancement Shaman, or it could be used for an encounter specific group setup. Regardless, a stacked hunter group benefits far less from Enhancement than any other physical DPS class since they cannot make use of Unleashed Rage. A Resto Shaman can actually benefit hunters more with the additional mana throughput. This group also places a strain on the Enhancement Shaman to maintain totems at the appropriate range for the melee and ranged in the group.

5.2 Evaluating with WoW Web Stats
Determining if an Enhancement Shaman is performing to his potential is tricky for a raid leader as the damage output can be very random from one raid to the next, and there are no clear indicators of "using the wrong ability at the wrong time" as with other classes. The following list is intended to assist raid leaders on where to focus their efforts.
  • First and foremost, familiarize yourself with this article so that you can talk the talk with the shaman. You need to understand what Stats benefit them and what sort of weapons they need, as well as getting a good understanding of just how random our DPS can be.
  • Examine your Enhancement Shaman on the Armory. Ensure that his gear meets the principles outline in this article. He should not have Hit gems, his gear should be properly enchanted for maximum DPS benefit, and he should be wearing the most appropriate gear for the spec. You may need to do some research on WoWHead or Thottbot to help make gear upgrade recommendations. He should not be trying to wear hybrid gear for spell damage or healing.
  • Group buffs are the primary reason you're bringing this shaman and so you should check to make sure he's fulfilling that role. Using WWS you can check to see how many times a totem was dropped on a fight by viewing the Shaman's record for that event. Check the "Performed" section and see how many times a totem was dropped. Multiply that by 120 seconds and compare to the length of the fight. The estimated uptime should be pretty close. If there are several minutes of uncovered time, your shaman is not keeping totems down and your melee group is suffering. Unleashed Rage should ideally have 100% uptime which approximately requires a 30% crit rate fully buffed.
  • Evaluating personal DPS contribution is tricky because it depends on armor level of the boss, your strategy on the boss, and the nature of the fight itself.

    His spread of damage should follow a general trend. Windfury attacks should account for 30-40%, Stormstrike for 10-12%. If its significantly less than that, the shaman may have forgotten to put Windfury on one or both weapons (or it ran out) or may not have been using Stormstrike on every 10sec cooldown.

    Shocks should be anywhere from 0-15% of his damage depending on the threat situation or magic immunities. His shock damage should come from a roughly equal number of Flame and Earth shocks, indicating a good DPS rotation of Flame-Earth-Flame. A perfect rotation would have 10 shocks per minute of combat, but given interference with stormstrike and using GCDs for consumables we could consider 7-8 shocks a minute to be an acceptable range.

    AutoAttack should make up the rest of his damage, normally 40-50%.

    There should be a minimal level of Parried attacks, indicating that he attacked from behind the boss. His Miss Rate on WWS is mostly irrelevant unless he hasn't hit capped his specials. Except for cases where debuffs cause loss of Hit %, no special attack should ever be Missed (only dodged/parried). The number of white attacks missed should not be used as an indicator of "needs more hit rating."
  • In the rare situation that you had two Enhancement shaman and need to compare their performance this becomes very difficult. You cannot simply say that they have 'similar gear', you will need to compare fully raid buffed stats including all group buffs for Hit, Crit, and Attack Power. Group composition is extremely important. If one shaman only had Trueshot Aura but the other had LotP and Battle Shout, the second shaman (all else being equal) should have a significant advantage over the other. Differences of 100 AP or 5% crit can easily explain large gaps in DPS output. Also check and compare Shock rotations and Stormstrike use. More often than not though, the culprit is group buffs or using an Elixir instead of a Flask.

6 Simulations
The nature of windfury and flurry interactions make closed form modeling extremely difficult and prone to a high degree of deviation. The Enhancement community turned to combat simulators as a way to model our DPS to make informed decisions. Currently the best utility for doing this is Yo!'s simulator.

To use Yo's simulator, load the armory or view your character paperdoll in-game. Make a note of which buffs you have active. Input your stats into the first panel, including your strength and agility for Blessings of Kings calculations. (You do not need BoK on your character for this) Your Hit% should be a sum of the paperdoll value and any from talents. (Nature's Guidance and Improved Dual Wielding do not show up in the paper doll)

Change the panel to the Procs and Buffs pages and enter things appropriately. Not all trinkets are represented, some things like the Bloodlust Brooch should be added as a static AP value to your stats. (Benefit * LengthOfBuff / Cooldown)

Yo's Sim is most accurate when its run for long periods of time, multiple times. If you want EP values, the recommended method is to run the sim for 5,000 - 10,000 hours between 5-10 times, taking the average of all the EP values as the result. If you want to simply compare DPS between item upgrades, multiple runs at 1,000 hours should be sufficient. The length of the sim run helps to smooth out the randomness of windfury/flurry in our DPS model.

7 Useful Links and Addons
  • DisqoDice - written by Disquette this addon will display nicely sync'd bars illustrating shock, stormstrike, and windfury cooldowns, and a new watershield timer to take advantage of the new watershield in 2.3.
  • Enhancer, available at WowAce. This in-game mod will display EP tooltips, can import personal EP values from Yo!'s simulator, and can show a wide variety of shaman data in-game such as WF cooldown, totem twisting timer, etc.
  • LootRank is useful for comparing gear based on statweights. This page includes all the new ZA gear as well as support for Haste, -Armor and Expertise.
  • Pawn Addon Latest version now supports haste, expertise, and -Armor, as well as having a GUI to fill in the stat weights. This will add a "rating" to your item tooltips that you can fill in with the EP values, allowing you to view the EP value of an item in-game.
  • ShamanFriend Provides a large number of shaman related alerts for missing weapon imbues, missing water shield, and can output results of purges, interrupts, bloodlust to your party/raid. Also features a totem timer.

8 Changelog
  • 13 Feb 08 - Changed prot paladins to wrath of air rather than windfury
  • 8 Feb 08 - Finished re-formatting the wiki stuff back into normal forum formatting
  • 6 Feb 08 - Complete restructuring and a decent rewrite of the post to match the upcoming wiki article

Last edited by Malan : 02/28/08 at 11:50 AM.
#2SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
Great post.
#3SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Bravo!

I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important.

I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good.

For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are:

Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.0
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7

In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all.

As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment.


I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically.
#4SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Aett
Very good post.

I would add the GM/HW one-handers in the list of available blue offhands. I use the axe currently because heroic bosses despise dropping weapons for me. (Got exalted with CE trying to get an offhand..)
#5SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
You can use the enchants to make up for deficiencies in your gear if you need it – Mongoose provides 4.8% crit per proc (and stacks with double procs on MH/OH), Crusader provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc, and Potency is a constant +40 Strength (80 AP).
Perhaps you were referring to having both weapons enchanted, but Enchant Weapon Potency is only +20 Strength (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22553).
OH itemization is fairly poor early on, with a few more choices available in TK and BT. If you are not yet in those zones the best choices for OH is a 2.6 speed Gladiator weapon from Arenas, a crafted Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) or a blue one-hand weapon available in several heroic instances (Auchenai Crypts last boss drops a 2.6 speed one-hand axe). Failing that, get yourself a green 2.6 speed off the Auction House.
Just to add to it, the 2.6 blue OHs drop in Heroic UB from Hungarfen, Heroic Old Hillsbrad from Lieutenant Drake, and Heroic Crypts like you mentioned; the level 70 blue HWL weapons are also 71.7 DPS.

Good post.
#6SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2The Dood
Thank the maker!

I was getting headache's trying to de-crypt the Itemization thread
#7SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ghando
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical.
--Haste Rating is not bad for Enhance Shamans. There was some comically faulty theorycrafting on Blizzard's Shaman forums a while back claiming that Haste Rating actually lowered DPS. This is not the case. At all. Haste Rating will increase DPS substantially, as for any melee class with a high % of damage being white. However, Haste Rating suffers from diminishing returns as it increases and pushes WF procs closer together.
#8SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Gwaihir
Some links to the only non-arena offhands until you hit Al'ar:

Bloodskull Destroyer
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28210

Boggspine Knuckles
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27747

and The Harvester of Souls
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27872
#9SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Malan
Oops on the Potency value. That was me copying from someone else's post.
Updating with some of this stuff now.
#10SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ghando
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical..
Well, the Windfury bonus AP is the same for each hand yes, but the procs are most definitely not the same since the OH weapon damage is reduced by 50%. I had already included a statement about this in the original post though, its in the WF section at the top.
Haste was mentioned already as well.

Edit - Can someone provide the data on Gems (8 Str and the 4Str/4Crit ones) and the meta gems of choice?
#11SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Phro
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?

If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile.
#12SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Phro
This may sound stupid but I thought I'd ask anyway; but ever since the WF-3second-cooldown nerf, has anyone tried not applying WF to their off-hand and using the WF totem to apply the WF to the off-hand? I know its less WF dmg, but maybe it out-weighs the internal cooldown of applying an off-hand self-WF?

If you cant even do this kindly disregard my post, I havent been enhance in awhile.
Oy. I totally almost put this into the post and then I thought. "nah, I think people are done asking this".

.... and so it shall go into the post.

No, do not use WF totem instead of WF Weapon. Its not nearly the same thing.
#13SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Phro
Haha, thanks! I haven't been reading the shammy-enh posts since I went resto at 70 and then ele eventually. Very good post none-the-less.

Btw im a retard...I thought WF totem buffed both weapons...stupid question! Having said that, if it was possible to self-imbued WF and totem OH WF, maybe it would be better...but who knows.

Thanks again!
#14SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Pater
Bravo!

I think Lootzor and Pawn work the same way: you give each stat a "weight" value; large weight means the stat is more important.

I'm more comfortable working with small numbers than with the 100s, but as long a the ratios are the same, I think you're good.

For someone at the Kara/Gruul/Mag level (2200 AP, 25% Crit, 22% Hit), I believe Tornhoof and I agree that the lootzor values are:

Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.0
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.0
HR = 0.7

In fact, here's a link to that search in Lootzor: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

Disquette's values were a little different, mainly because used a broader range of stats and averaged across them all.

As a matter of style/utility, I'd think you'd put these at the top of your post rather than at the bottom, but that's a pretty minor comment.


I'm not sure where it is, but you might want to add a sentence or two showing why INT and MP5 are wasted on our gear--the weakness of our DPM, basically.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean 1 CR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR?
#15SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Yeah, that's right. "Equivalences" are just inverted "weights." For equivalencies, you're just saying "I would be equally happy getting 1 CR or 1.43 HR." For weights, you're saying "HR is 0.7 times as good as [1.0] CR."

I really like the "weight" system myself, because it allows for quick input into lootzor, and it also conforms to the AEP paradigm. You can think of those weights as AEP for us (since Agi is 1.0 as well) or CritEP if you prefer. (Technically, AGI is 0.97 = 22.1*1.1/25, but I think 1.0 is close enough for simplicity's sake.) I believe pawn uses the same approach, to give each item a "value" in the tooltip.
#16SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tenu
I've got exported pawn strings for Pater and Disquette's values:

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Disq)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=1.51, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=1.47, HitRating=1.08, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

So you can use the /pawn import command and paste those in. I scaled both to use a baseline of 1AP, and assumed 8str gems in sockets, and 24AP gem in metasocket.
#17SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
That's pretty cool.

I have also added a link to Lootzor's top 10 results for every slot in my sig.
#18SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2♦ Sebudai
Yeah I wanted to make sure, because it seems some of Lootzor's items are out of date with the 2.1 changes and I was working on a list for myself. Now we need to figure out weighting and value for haste rating.
#19SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
I can (or a helpful helper can) put haste rating into my sim pretty easily. I don't have any procs yet, but I should make the top ones (mongoose and that haste hammer at least) a priority.
#20SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
Totem of the Astral Winds isn't exactly farmable, you can't reset heroic instances. It does take 15 minutes from zone in to the first boss though, should be worth doing it anytime you're doing any other Heroic in Auchindoun.
#21SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
We should also include int/mp5 in our weightings (perhaps in two minute chunks). Although alot of leather is quite rated quite highly in the lootzor link, I think my back of the envelope calculations showed that we shouldn't neglect Int/mp5 completely: http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1026 http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...postcount=1039

It may be that, at higher levels of gear, the percentage of damage that consists of Shocks will be so low that it's more worthwhile to just gear without thought to mana and reduce the number of shocks. But, at my level, with 0 spell damage, shocks are still a significant portion of my damage (~156 dps with debuffs). Since I am at the point where it is possible to run OOM during a full burn cycle, there must exist some equivalence between extra mana vs extra melee stats.

AP and +hit has the advantage of doing double duty of increasing melee damage while boosting mana gains, but relying on SR completely is also not always optimal. Timing SR with a trinket maximises mana gain, but you have to time it when you can be certain you won't waste SR procs. However, in many encounters, there exist damage windows where it's optimal to save your trinket for. These two scenarios don't always occur at the same time.

With a full burn DPS cycle being estimated at least ~13k mana per two minutes, we need to consider the question: What is the optimal ratio of intellect and mp5 to melee stats?

This will be a multivariable function which several critical points exist. Some things to consider:
-Does there exist any itemization points where the additional melee damage outweighs being able to shock every cooldown?
-If there is not, what is the minimum mana pool, mp5 and mana from SR required to sustain a full burn cycle.
#22SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Panny: I guess your mileage may vary. Some shaman have mana issues, others never do. It all depends on your gear, your raid composition, and the encounter.

It's impossible to have a realistic "dps weight" for mp5, int or stamina, because there is no direct connection between them and the other dps stats. At best, you should establish the amount of mana used in a 2 minute burn cycle, and develop a formula to express how much minimum mana a shaman would need, based on his AP (since AP directly feeds your mana regen with SR). mp5 is going to always, always, always be an inferior stat to Int for a decently geared shaman, since that shaman will be regenerating more mana with SR than he has room for in his small mana pool, and Int is a much cheaper itemization stat.

Furthermore, a 'full burn cycle' of mana consumption is nearly always constant, so there's not a lot of variables involved. Just determine the formula needed for complete sustainability based on buffed AP and weapon speed.

Personally, I raid with a Ret pally. <3 JoW
#23SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Zurgat
Curious, i wonder how big the difference is between the WF weapon enchant, and the WF totem (both talented).

Last edited by Zurgat : 01/04/08 at 11:13 AM.
#24SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Illundai
The biggest difference is that Windfury Weapon is 2 attacks. The totem is only 1.
#25SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2dwayna
so if i read this correclty . axe of the deepwoods with the flurry axe fails for lvling and i should get a slower weapon instead of the flurry 1 . im lvl 52 btw
#26SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tornhoof
As for further models you can add my EquipOptimizer, which includes my Enh model.
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

The other shaman models are just fine, they should give you correct results.
The holy priest model is fine too, the shadow model is not finished
The protection tank model is not completely finished, but the results should be ok.
Rogue isn't even started.

It has some certain problems with selecting the right gems and it has some problems if you actually lock too many item slots, you should always leave like 2-3 open, otherwise it might as well crash.
#27SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
#28SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Oprahwinfury
Nice Pater but don't forget to add the miniscule spell crit rating that a point of Int gives as well
#29SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
It seems to have some absurd droprate, which is a pity. I got mine on the first kill and I can't say I'm mad that I did :P.
#30SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Pater
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:

What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053

We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)

Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
#31SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ilmatar
I was under the impression that SR was PPM based, obviously no-cooldown.
#32SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Unaz
SS x 120/10 = 226*12 = 2712
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = 1107
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 460*10 = 4600
FS x 120/6/2, 5 seconds + 1 sec for gcd = 430*10 = 4300
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2712 + 1107 - 720 + 4600 + 4300 - 237 = 11762

With 2 extra shocks and the 5% extra damage adding up to a third extra shock in damage. With one out of the 20 proccing Elemental devastation for +9% crit as well on average.

With an Enhance/Ele spec of http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00000000000000

So it's a savings of only about 300 mana with 3 extra shocks of damage, and a solid chance at proccing +9% crit every two minutes.

SR in my experience seemed to be PPM, as with a two hander it was proccing almost every swing fairly reliably. However dual wield seems to be PPM per hand, so you end up with almost the same effect at about twice the rate. The description is also fairly typical of a PPM description on the tooltip.


Also keep in mind that once your attack power reaches a certain breakpoint the time frame changes. You'll be filling your mana pool and able to refresh all your totems inside the window of SR, and even get free shocks off as well.

With SR lasting 30 seconds and enough attack power, you can almost guarantee yourself full mana at the end of 30 seconds. With a full totem refresh.

So a full totem refresh is about 8 seconds with GCD I believe. Which leaves 22 seconds for other spells. Which is 3 shocks untalented, or 4 talented.

If we assume the enh/resto build and full mana at the end of SR we have:

SS x 90/10 = 236*9 = 2124
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = FREE (SHould be able to drop and recover during SR uptime)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720 (will be up during SR)
ES x 90/7/2 = 535*6 = 3210 (there's rounding here, but rounding down due to not being able to land a partial shock)
FS x 90/7/2 = 500*6 = 3000
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238 (Should probably not count as it will happen during SR?)
2124 - 720 + 3210 + 3000 - 237 = 7377

With Enh/Ele:

SS x 90/10 = 226*9 = 2034
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 288 + 312 + 115 + 196*2 = FREE
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 90/6/2 = 460*7.5 = 3450 (15 shocks, so one needs to be 8, averaging as it can go either way)
FS x 90/6/2 = 430*7.5 = 3225
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -237
2034 - 720 + 3450 + 3225 - 237 = 7752 (with 3 more shocks and 75% of the damage of another shock)

NOTE that these are only if you are able to maintain a shock rotation and re-drop all totems during SR, ending at full mana. If you are able to proc 400 mana/second, you can get 12000. 500 mana every two seconds (which is more reasonable at higher ends of gear) is 7500 mana during SR. The closer you can get to the end of SR with full mana without interrupting your shock/SS rotation, the closer to efficient you get. Right now I only ever seem to need the cheap combat mana pots to keep shocks going. Although I'm usually aggro capped before that, or have trouble keeping on the mob for the full duration.

Quick Conclusion
I have some overlap and rounding issues here, and will assume that hardly everyone keeps up a perfect dps rotation on every cooldown, or gets 100% uptime. These numbers are pointing at about 7400-7800 under optimum conditions and a certain level of AP. I'd say 8500 is probably the ideal amount of mana to allow for breathing room WITHOUT relying on pots. If you have pots you either can get more breathing room or a lower mana pool. Or save the cooldowns for non-mana pots.

I also hardly ever find myself using totemic call unless I'm moving away from my old totems, as I'd rather refresh them one at a time and not take the buffs off my group for sake of my mana efficiency. There's also water shield to consider, which procs off of many more conditions then Lightning Shield, so I usually keep it up all the time.

Last edited by Unaz : 06/20/07 at 4:04 PM.
#33SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Pater
My thought was that INT would have such a low weight in comparison to the other stats that it wasn't worth calculating. But I suppose we should back that up with some math.

My approach with "weights" is to answer the question, "If someone gave you 1 item point, what would you want it to be?" Right now, the answer is 1 Str (weight 1.1). If you couldn't get that, you'd want either 1 CR or 1 Agi (weight 1) or 2 AP (weight 0.5). If you couldn't get those, you'd say 1 HR (weight 0.7).

Where does INT fit in there? I'll do a super rough calc that perhaps other people could refine.

1 INT = 15 mana.

Converting mana into damage: ES spam is 675 dmg / 535 mana, or 1.26 DPM. (Not accounting for FS/ES rotations or SS debuff, rough numbers.)

So the 1 INT gives 15 * 1.1 (kings) * 1.26 = 21 damage. Generously, we can say that you get to reuse it every 2 minutes because of SR, making this 21/120 = 0.18 dps.

(I'm overlooking the ES cooldown, because the max number of shocks in a 2 min window is controlled by mana, not by that cooldown.)

Tornhoof's sim and my sim agreed earlier this week that 100 AP would add about 22 dps (to someone with approx. full kara gear). That's 0.22 DPS/AP, compared to 0.18 DPS/INT. Ratioing down from AP's weight, the weight for INT should be about 0.5 * 18/22 = 0.41.


These are really rough numbers and there might be errors. But if they're approximately right, INT is so weak that you'd prefer even 1 point of AP to 1 point of INT.
Not including CoE, imp. scorch, Misery or SS debuff is a mistake imho, ES+FS rotation is ~156 DPS. According to the simple maths I did comparing Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless vs Cyclone Spaulders, if you accept that it is possible to run OoM, there's definitely cases where going for the int is more advantageous.

I suppose creating a ratio isn't as useful as other stats, as after your mana pool is a certain size compared to your gains from SR, it stops contributing to your DPS. The fact that the question "how much int do I need" will vary for different encounters, your stats, and raid composition. With no gear changes, on one week of Gruul, I gained 3-4k mana per Shamanistic Rage. This week, with a Survival Hunter and two Warriors in my group (meaning I get Battle Shout for the entire fight rather than just the first half), I gained 7.5k mana.

Originally Posted by Rob
I like seeing this result. It makes me feel good about giving INT at least some weight in my Lootzor string. It raises a couple questions for me:

What's the maximum mana pool required for 2 minutes of SS, ES/FS, and totems between Shamanistic Rage (plus mana pot) cooldowns?
I think someone has done this work before, but it's easier for me to duplicate it than to search for it.
SS x 120/10 = 236*12 = 2832
SoE, WF, Mana Spring x 1 + Searing x 2 = 225 + 243 + 90 + 153*2 = 864 (note this is with Totemic Focus, adjust upwards by 25% if this doesn't apply to you... now that I explicitly see that this talent is only worth 288 mana/120 sec = 12mp5, I might get rid of it)
Mana gained from Mana Spring = 12*120/2 = -720
ES x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 535*9 = 4815
FS x 120/6/2, minus one lost to GCD = 500*9 = 4500
Totemic call with 5 seconds left on totem durations = -238
2832 + 864 - 720 + 4815 + 4500 - 238 = 12053

We can then safely say that any INT which raises our buffed mana pool above 12053 is going to be useless, if we can get a refill off of SR + mana pot. If one waited until their mana pool were depleted by the amount of a Super Mana Pot at the start of a fight, chugged one, and then continued chugging each time the CD was up, you would get a larger "effective" mana pool without any more INT. A Super Mana is at least 1800 and averages 2400 mana, so if you accept the average, you don't need INT which raises the buffed mana pool above 9653. (Do pots still crit?)
They can, but generally, Fel Mana Potions are a better bet (3.2k mana restored).

Also, don't forget that Bloodlust is 750 mana. Obviously, you don't cast it ever 2 minutes, it needs to be considered.

Originally Posted by Rob
Can we expect to fill that up with Shamanistic Rage?
Obviously, this is going to vary a lot with gear; and as most shamans know, it also depends on the fight (whether or not you can get a nice solid 30 seconds of attacking the ass end of a boss mob without having to move). We know that you get 15% of your AP back per proc. Do we have hard data on whether this is PPM or percentage-based?
I use WWS to give me an indication of how much mana will be restored in a given encounter. I believe it is PPM.

All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?

Last edited by panny : 06/20/07 at 9:44 PM.
#34SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Originally Posted by panny
All this theorycraft is irritating though. Surely with all the high-end raiders we have posting here, some would have a heavy leather gear setups they can post experience about using?
6k unbuffed mana. 1400 unbuffed ap.

I never go out of mana in raids. I spam stormstrike every cast, and shock every single opportunity when threat isn't a concern. During unleashed rage, I mana dump every chance that I can, even using Fire Nova Totem / Searing Totem rotations =X. Mana is just not an issue unless my unleashed rage is interrupted somehow. (Void Reaver is annoying for this reason. I usually save my healthstones for Unleashed Rage, and just eat a few ground poundings).

We frequently have JoW up however.
#35SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Well, I'm nearly 100% kara leather and have been avoiding anything with mana for a while. The only time I have mana problems is when I forget to use SR.
#36SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2panny
All accounts of JoW make me rather jealous.

Pater, is that with a full shock rotation?
#37SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)

Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
#38SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Panny -- occasionally I have mana problems when pushing shocks to the max. Most of the time the problems are SR-related, though: either forgetting to use it, or having some of it wasted because of shatter and the like.
#39SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rob
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all? If you do, and are not getting JoW, you need to yell at them. My paladins claimed they "couldn't keep judgments on" until I bitched about it non stop and made them do it. Now they keep it up all the time because they can see the huge returns we get from JoL and JoW.
Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night)
You can bring more melee than that - we did VR first time last night also, had 4 tanks and 5 melee in the pounding the whole time. 1-2 Shaman can chain heal the melee through the entire fight with no issues.
#40SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Maybe there should be a few lines in the OP about which pally buffs are best for enhancement. In an ideal world, you'd get all four (kings, might, wisdom, salvation), but in reality we usually only run with three paladins. I tend to prefer kings, might, salve as my combination, due to the fact that kings and might mean I gain a healthy amount of mana back from each SR proc.

These are the pros and cons of each based on my experiences:

Kings - Increases all stats by 10%.
Pros: Good in almost every situation.
Cons: Causes a decent increase in threat generation due to harder hits and more shocks.

Might - Increases AP by 220.
Pros: More AP means stronger attacks, more SR mana returns.
Cons: Threat generation when combined with kings. Paladins have to buff this separately and refresh during battle.

Wisdom - Returns 42 mp5.
Pros: Best blessing for mana regen, shines on long fights.
Cons: Not always necessary with proper use of SR.

Salvation - Decrease threat generated by 30%
Pros: Best blessing for threat problems, allows 30% more dps.
Cons: Useless blessing when not threat capped.

In general, the other shaman always want kings, wisdom and salvation. I usually have to coordinate with the wisdom pally to get the five minute version of might and have it refreshed during battle. I placed that under con because if the pally is dead or healing then you're out of a buff after the first five minutes.

It's also worth noting (perhaps under might?) that on nights where we have a fury warrior in the dps group I tend to need salvation more, due to battleshout.
#41SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Originally Posted by Malan
With that kind of unbuffed AP you should be getting pretty much an entire mana bar back on Mag. The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler.
This is slightly off topic, but proper placement of totems helps a lot during the first 2 minutes of Mag. With 30yd totems you can place them between the first and second channeler and not have to redrop until you move to the third one. I usually end up dropping totems twice after the pull, and it makes a noticeable difference in my mana pool going into phase 2. I also save SR and bloodlust till the 3rd channeler, but that's just my personal preference.

I've noticed a lot of fights where good totem placement can make mana management much easier, like Mag and Hydross. Just make sure your group knows where you're placing the totems so they can stay near them.
#42SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Khrashz
meta choices

One thing that seems conspicuously absent from the collected theorycraft is metagem choices.

EDIT: appears that relentless earthstorm is the best choice, after reading one of the source threads. Still -- would be an appropriate addition to this excellent summary.

Last edited by Khrashz : 06/21/07 at 1:42 PM.
#43SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
99% sure the math was done in the itemization thread proving 3% is better. It's nicer now that it also procs on yellow damage instead of just white.
#44SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Khrashz
Originally Posted by Malan
Its "farmable" for that exact reason, I've been running it every day for 2 weeks 20 minutes before raid time. Its my white whale.
You too? My condolences ... although I'm basically numb by now ... I think I'm up to 25+ runs without seeing it drop. Exalted with consortium, got all sorts of ethereum keys, a fel barrier, etc ... but that totem .... that totem ... why. Why. Why.

In other news, my other white whale, Skulker's Greaves, was harpooned, brought to port, and made into exceedingly expensive perfumes in the deep hours of the night yesterday.

PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.

Here's my armory, with me wearing them in all their unsocketed/unpatched glory:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...oroth&n=Khrash

Once I patch them later today, I'll be starting with a baseline of 1498 ap and 203 hit unbuffed. (If I push cap, I can change out edgewalker to rapscallion, and/or pick up a pendant of the perilous to replace worgen claw).

Advice on which 3 gems to stuff in them?
#45SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Grats!

I'd agree with your friend. I give STR a 1.1 weight and HR only 0.7.

Right now, I have 4cr/6sta in mine for the yellow slot, but that's because I just haven't gotten around to changing it since settling on the stat weights.


According to a few sims and other approaches, HR just isn't that hot above some level. You don't even need to be that close to the cap (25.5) before it starts giving diminishing returns. (As far as why this might be, I would guess it's because SS and WF only have 5% base miss rate.)
#46SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
The first 1-2 min of Mag are very mana intense because you (should be) redropping WF and SoE at each Channeler as you move. The last Mag kill we did I popped SR as soon as we started and just started burning mana down on the Channeler. After that just use it every time its up and you shouldn't have to use any pots. Do you not have paladins at all?
Yeah, I do redrop WF/SoE; I also drop Fire Elemental Totem for the first 2 channelers (we MD one onto the first tank and he tanks 2 in one spot), as well as earth shocking heals/shadow bolt volleys. I typically use my trinkets on the channelers but save my SR for Magtheridon, which lets me get a full bar back if I take a few seconds off of shocking. Heroism, I don't bother popping for the first 2 Channelers because I would just pull aggro, I usually save it for the 3rd or so. I'm going to assume that any difference left over is due to JoW; we usually carry 3-4 Holy paladins, maybe I can get one of them to start judging it for me.
Originally Posted by Khrashz
PS: A guildmate (and member of these forums) has been trying to talk me out of socketing those pants with 3 rigid dawnstones. He's been reading these forums closely and is insisting I go for triple +8 str.
Your friend is right. Go triple +8 str, or if for some perverse reason you want the +dodge rating bonus, use one of the purple +4 str/+6 sta gems.
#47SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jendryn
Rob, once you've had a pally judge wisdom in a fight like Magtheridon where you're essentially standing there the entire fight (minus any backup clicking duties you may have), you won't want to ever go back. In the case of Mag, JoW restores just about the same amount of mana SR does when using SR every cooldown (SR restores about 410 mana on proc untrinketed in raids).

In any event, I too have harbored the fear of losing too much Int due to wearing leather but the more my Int goes down, I can see that it truly has a very small effect. Now I just need this link handy when I bid on rogue gear.
#48SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jeht
The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is now extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit a mob again after a WF cooldown is up, and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. The OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH (any from KZ as an example) with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)

The attack power bonus from Windfury is not reduced by the 50% OH damage penalty from Dual Wielding.
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
#49SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Jeht
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
Offhand procs do less damage than main hand procs, and they share the same lockout timer. By minimizing the amount of offhand procs in comparison to main hand procs the theory is that you will generate more overall damage. This isn't quite as noticeable at earlier levels of itemization since it has been revealed that the AP from the Windfury proc applied to the offhand is not halved as you would expect, but once you reach SSC/TK/MGlad level gear it becomes much more pronounced as more of your damage is generated from AP.
#50SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
drats - Good idea on the totem placement, don't know why I didn't think of that.

Krashz and Negative - I went through the itemization thread like 3 times and somehow keep missing the couple of posts that debated meta gems, if someone can summarize it up for me to put in the OP or link it, I'd be obliged. Quite busy at work right now.
#51SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2drats
Originally Posted by Jeht
Can you elaborate on this point just a little bit? Since the WF bonus is not halved by dual wielding, why do you not want WF to proc on the off-hand? Is it because the WF bonus is applied to damage that's been reduced by the DW penalty? Or because itemization naturally lends itself to weaker off-hand weapons?
There's a whole thread on that here:
The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors)

The general idea is that the WF bonus isn't halved but the damage still is. Everytime your OH procs it's keeping your MH from proccing for 3 seconds.
#52SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jeht
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Offhand procs do less damage than main hand procs, and they share the same lockout timer. By minimizing the amount of offhand procs in comparison to main hand procs the theory is that you will generate more overall damage. This isn't quite as noticeable at earlier levels of itemization since it has been revealed that the amount of AP applied to the offhand is not halved as you would expect, but once you reach SSC/TK/MGlad weapons it becomes much more pronounced.
Yes I understand that much, but why do they do less damage? Is it just from the DW off-hand penalty?

IE- mainhand attack WF damage would be: x+WF AP, offhand attack WF damage would be: x*.6 (or whatever the penalty is)+WF AP?

edit: OK I think I got it thank you.
#53SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Jeht
Yes I understand that much, but why do they do less damage? Is it just from the DW off-hand penalty?
Yes. The offhand damage is halved from what it would be if it were a main hand attack, then the bonus AP from Windfury Weapon's proc is applied.
#54SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2mek
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but does this mean 1 CR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR?
Yeah. The original post is a little unclear on this, and it also has the consequence of CR being EQUAL to AP, after considering the item budget. Perhaps some clarification should indicate that AP and CR are equally good (approximately) due to their different itemization costs. It also means that Strength is superior to both, after considering Kings.
#55SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Is the goal of this thread for discussion, or only reference of 'confirmed' theroycraft? (The following seems out of place in the itemization thread.)

So, does anyone else juggle WF totem and AGI, trying to keep both up? I've got a hotkey for it (tied to stormstrike, to help time the WF Totem buff), but I really only use it in the "go nuts" portion of a fight - usually the low hp enrage portion where I'm trying to mana dump any way that I can.

For the record, my macro is:
/castsequence reset=6 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem;

It's bound to a more obscure place on my keyboard, due to it's infrequent use. It's pretty fun, although it really means you spend pretty much the entire fight in the global cooldown. I usually mix Fire Nova Totem in there too, since it's about the best mana dump I have.
#56SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Azaranth
So, does anyone else juggle WF totem and AGI, trying to keep both up? I've got a hotkey for it (tied to stormstrike, to help time the WF Totem buff), but I really only use it in the "go nuts" portion of a fight - usually the low hp enrage portion where I'm trying to mana dump any way that I can.
Its been suggested a lot and dismissed by most as a waste of mana and mostly a "oh gee isn't this neat" sort of thing that isn't really useful. It puts you on GCD pretty much the entire time and requires most of your attention focused on that instead of on the fight or maybe helping top someone off that's about to die (although I guess macro'd its easier).
#57SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Azaranth
Yar. I think that's why I tend to use it in the "Oh God, Leotheras is going to enrage in 20 seconds!" sort of situations

I wouldn't bother without a macro. It's pretty low maintenance as long as it's hotkeyed properly.
#58SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Negative
This post is a decent summary of metas and boot enchants. I tried finding the math as well that I thought was there but couldn't find it.

[Shaman] Itemizing Enhancement at 70

Basically the haste gem has the internal cooldown that makes it pretty terrible, while the change to Relentless making it affect yellow damage makes it by far the better choice.
#59SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
There's something that has been bugging me for a while. I always see people posting that you need a certain amount of hit rating to be effective, usually you see numbers around 20% or 200 hit rating. Or you see people concerned that they can't afford to lose hit rating. Is there really any truth to this though? I've been finding when using tools like pawn and lootzor that items lacking +hit often score very high. Since AEP ratings are designed to give a genuine value to items, are these ratings somehow broken? Or are players just clinging to the notion that hit is required out of habit?

My curiosity on this subject has led me to make myself a bit of a guinea pig. I've been taking items based solely on AEP style ratings for the last month or so, my hit rating has plummeted from around 220 to 111. My damage however feels like it's improved though I haven't been logging much data so I can't say with any certainty.

When Pater posted his sim one thing I checked right off was whether the relative value of hit rating changed depending on how much you had. I put in regular raid buffed values and lowered the +hit from gear to 0%, then I increased it by 5% and ran it again. I then did the same change again, going from 11% to 16%. The results came out as such:

0% -> 5% (9% -> 14%)
847.5 -> 875.8 = 28.3 DPS gained

11% -> 16% (20% -> 25%)
910.4 -> 940 = 29.6 DPS gained

Is there anything I'm missing? I'm trying find anything other than anecdotal evidence that a certain amount of hit rating is more beneficial than an equal amount of item budget spent on AP or crit stats. Certainly due to the non-linear cost you want items that have a balance of all DPS stats, but many pieces just aren't itemized that way. Should I be passing over items that score higher overall for ones that though scoring lower have a more even stat distribution?
#60SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Having high amounts of hit rating has the somewhat intangible benefit of guaranteeing lots of hits when you use SR, in addition to avoiding a situation where you are crit capped (not really a problem since 2.1). The magic number formula is purely in terms of DPS.
#61SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Unaz
The rule of thumb I've been using recently (now that I'm actually starting to have a moderate amount of socketed gear available to me) is any piece where the bonus is useful to me from a dps standpoint (typically AP/or +hit bonuses) and I can reach the bonus using purely +hit/str/ap gems, I'll match colors.

Everything else +8 str.

That being said I was finding myself lacking due to getting pieces of dps gear with no +hit and trying to stay above certain minimums, so threw in a little extra +hit.

Regarding the whole paladin thing, we've had bad luck keeping active raiding paladins (horde guild). After having 4 people reroll as pallys with BC, 3 of them stopped playing due to one reason or another, and we're only now back up to 3 pallys. Typically running with one, 2 if we're lucky. So I usually end up asking for might and getting the opportunity for kings maybe 20% of the time.
#62SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Having high amounts of hit rating has the somewhat intangible benefit of guaranteeing lots of hits when you use SR, in addition to avoiding a situation where you are crit capped (not really a problem since 2.1). The magic number formula is purely in terms of DPS.
True, however sacrificing some of that hit for for strength would go some way to compensating you. Just some quick numbers and my math is fairly poor so I may make some mistakes.

Lets assume 2200 AP and take 100 hit rating and exchange it for 100 str. We would lose 6.33% hit and I guess 6.33% SR procs? Our overall mana gain would go down by 6.33% as well if I'm correct. With kings and UR that 100 str would gain us 242 AP? Which would gain us an additional 36.3 mana per SR proc pushing them from 330 to 366.3 an 11% gain. So you'd get 6.33 percent fewer procs bu tthe procs would return 11% more mana, assuming no errors in my math which is a pretty big assumption. Either way it should be a small change.

You're correct as well that with the greatly reduced glancing rate the crit cap even without as much +hit is still quite high.
#63SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
if you lose 6.33% hit, you loose (white swings / total swings) SR procs.

Assume you have 10 white swings in 10 seconds (2.6 weapons, perma-hasted).

You would also have 2 stormstrike swings, and probably 4 windfury swings that are unaffected by your drop in hit (since they're maxed out by your talents hit-wise).

So, instead of losing 100% * 6.33% = 6.33% SR loss, you actually have
10/16 = 62.5% * 6.33% = 4.0% fewer SR procs.
#64SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Ulix
Originally Posted by Malan
StormStrike and Windfury are not normalized to weapon speed and are not impacted by haste effects. Haste is therefore an excellent way to increase Shaman DPS.
I think haste rating does in fact have an impact on WF, certain ammounts of haste rating can actually have a negative impact on DPS output. I dont know if this has been brought up on these forums already, but if it hasnt here is link to a fairly informative discussion about it http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1.

Edit: A different subject. We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group. Also, in the OP's analysis of WF and Agi totem, the dps increase of the shaman itself with GoA isnt added, it should be! :p

Last edited by Ulix : 06/22/07 at 7:29 AM.
#65SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
The bonus damage that the dps warrior in your group puts out using Windfury is much higher then the rest of the group combined using GoA. At least in my experience.

This was posted at the bottom of Compilation:

On why Windfury Totem is almost always the best totem to drop for any group that has a warrior DPSing in it, or pretty much any group that is not just hunters and druids:
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=40
A Fury warrior will gain 200-300 DPS from WFT, eclipsing any gains that other group, in total, would gain from GoA being dropped instead. A Mortal Strike warrior will gain even more from the totem due to 2H mechanics.
#66SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ulix
I think haste rating does in fact have an impact on WF, certain ammounts of haste rating can actually have a negative impact on DPS output. I dont know if this has been brought up on these forums already, but if it hasnt here is link to a fairly informative discussion about it http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....sid=1&pageNo=1.
Nothing in that link struck me as the poster having any idea whatsoever what he's talking about.
#67SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ulix
We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group.
The numbers are linked in my post. Why are people still coming and saying "I think GoA might be better...." when you can just try it out for yourself? Go do Magtheridon, use WF this week and GoA the next with the same setup. This isn't difficult to test.
#68SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Edit: A different subject. We usually have a GoA-dps group, it consists of a druid, enhancement shammy (me!), rogue, hunter and a warrior. I'd like to see some number-crunching on dps output of such a group with GoA or WF, I'd think GoA wins in such a group. Also, in the OP's analysis of WF and Agi totem, the dps increase of the shaman itself with GoA isnt added, it should be! :p
This is a stupid group if you're outside Kara and you shouldn't ever see it in 25 man raids. If your warrior is halfway competent he will see tremendous gains from Windfury that will likely eclipse the DPS gained by the rest of the group from GoA.
#69SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
I'd like to interject at this time that we have quite a few theories going on here, and I'm not sure how much they've actually been tested. This worries me.

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know about the Windfury offhand bonus being exactly what it is. (minor deviation from theory)

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't have discovered the 36% chance to WF when dual wielding . (major deviation from theory)

If we didn't test theories, we wouldn't know that we're getting more flurried attacks than we should. (major deviation from theory)

Even blasted lands tests are fine for testing these out, but until they are tested, I'm not very comfortable with treating the results from any of this as being worth much.

For blasted lands tests, back into your numbers - run recap and find out what your actual crit rate and hit rate are, then plug those into your sim or formula. Find out how many auto-attack swings you had, compare it to what your model suggests. Find out how many windfury procs you had, compare that to the model. You wont have any dodge/block/parry/glancing, but the models and formulas need to be able to account for this situation as well, so you might as well start on the scenario that's easiest to test.

I'm not saying that any of the formulas or stat valuations are wrong, I'm saying that we currently don't seem to be confirming that they're right.
#70SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ulix
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This is a stupid group if you're outside Kara and you shouldn't ever see it in 25 man raids. If your warrior is halfway competent he will see tremendous gains from Windfury that will likely eclipse the DPS gained by the rest of the group from GoA.
My guild is definately not the best out there, we've just started SSC 2 weeks ago, got 2 bossed down, and we are working on Tidewalker. But we seem to get the highest overal dps output with this GoA group thing. I dont see why anyone would deem this as a stupid group, 5% crit aura, battleshout, Ferocious Inspiration from the BM hunter (3% extra dmg), and totems + Unleashed Rage makes a damn fine dps group imo :p The druid also offtanks occasionally, and since their agro scales with dmg this group is also rather good for that, only thing he misses is an imp.

I understand perfectly well that the warrior's dps is WAY higher with WF, thats obvious. However, if the warrior uses stones on his weapons + GoA, the rogues uses poisons + GoA, and the other 3 dps get the benefits from GoA aswell... ah well, ill test it next Karathress, no holding back on that fight anyway. Sorry for asking
#71SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Do you not have a 2nd rogue? Only 1 in the entire raid? You'd get much more benefit from dropping the hunter out of that group and replacing him with a rogue. The DPS gain from giving Battle Shout to rogues is tremendous. And then get rid of the GoA and give the warrior and 2 rogues WF and you'll see far more DPS gains. And no, Stones + Poisons + GoA are not better than WF.
#72SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
• Nite_Moogle
I don't see why anyone would deem this as a stupid group, 5% crit aura, battleshout, Ferocious Inspiration from the BM hunter (3% extra dmg), and totems + Unleashed Rage makes a damn fine dps group imo :p
Unless you bring no other melees to your raid beyond one warrior and one rogue you can organize your groups better than this. As an enhancement Shaman you should have these people in your group in order of priority: DPS warriors, sword rogues, dagger rogues, LotP druids (LotP druids + BM hunters = happiness, so be nice and share them). If you use warriors for offtanks, having them in your group will allow them to build threat more easily with WFT and the extra AP, but they are usually better in the MT group for Imp/Tree buffs.

Having a hunter in the group for the BM bonus is not nearly worth the opportunity cost of having an additional melee gain the benefits of WFT. This is one of the most common mistakes that people make in organizing groups. Ferocious Inspiration is a flat 3% bonus to any sort of damage and it makes Hunters useful in any damage-dealing group, whereas the difference between GoA and WF for warriors and rogues is tremendous by the time you are in SSC. If you have a hunter in a mage group FI is roughly as effective as it is to a melee group, but that hunter will get far less benefit from shaman totems than a melee class would. If you have a rogue in the mage group when the hunter is in your group, you are crippling that rogue's DPS (no totems, no battle shout) and the hunter is not providing any real additional benefit (not affected by battle shout, WF does nothing, only receives half benefit from GoA/SoE). If you can provide WFT to four other melee classes you should absolutely be doing it, because nothing else will provide them with as big of a benefit as what you will.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 06/22/07 at 10:50 AM.
#73SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Ulix
Originally Posted by Malan
Nothing in that link struck me as the poster having any idea whatsoever what he's talking about.
Well, there have been more posts prior to that, and I'd suggest reading more than the OP only (check Aj, and Snorkle's replies). It truely seems like an interesting read. But to give small insight to what is being discussed there:

WF has a 3 second cooldown. Once it procs, it wont proc again in the next 3 seconds. With weapons of 2.6 speed, without flurry or anything, this means that WF *can* proc every other swing. So, WF, normal swing, WF, is possible. Now, what happens when flurry + haste-rating items make you swing faster than 1.5 seconds, lets say 1.49. To have a chance to proc WF after a WF you would need 2 swings instead of only 1. So in theory, when you get haste-rating items that make you swing faster than 1.5 seconds your WF proc rate *will* go down. Yes, your white damage will increase, but your WF dmg over time will go down. Your overal dps will be lower with 1.49 swing speed than with 1.5 swing speed.

The next question would be, how is the overal dps output when the swingspeed becomes 1.4, or 1.3, or even lower, it will be better than 1.49 thats for sure, but at what point will it be better than 1,5 speed.

The thread I linked discusses just that.

Note, this theory is about swing speed, NOT weapon speed. SLOW/SLOW is always the way to go when it comes to weapon speed.

But, if you feel that the original poster has no idea what he is talking about, please explain to me why that is the case. This thread was made by Aj and Snorkle, which are both well known on the european shaman boards for their theorycrafting.

I have always really apreciated these forums as a source of information, and tbh I'd expected a better response than "he just doesnt have a clue"

Last edited by Ulix : 06/22/07 at 11:33 AM.
#74SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ulix
Originally Posted by Malan
Do you not have a 2nd rogue? Only 1 in the entire raid? You'd get much more benefit from dropping the hunter out of that group and replacing him with a rogue. The DPS gain from giving Battle Shout to rogues is tremendous. And then get rid of the GoA and give the warrior and 2 rogues WF and you'll see far more DPS gains. And no, Stones + Poisons + GoA are not better than WF.
We usually dont have many rogues with us, or dps warriors for that matter. And my question wasnt "Is Stones + Poisons + GoA better than WF?". It was: Wont my group dps be better with goa, when it consists of a druid/hunter/warrior/rogue/me and the rogue and warrior use stones/poisons? :p

Anyway, lets drop this! Gimme your opinions on the haste-rating/swingspeed matter!
#75SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
The haste-lowers-your-DPS discussion was hashed out some time ago; there are certain hastes that will lower your overall DPS, but they are pretty difficult to come by in actual practice. Mongoose is probably the main culprit of this but it only occurs at certain very uncommon weapon speeds (1.5 or 3.0, etc). It's pretty hard for any item that generates at least 5% haste to lower your DPS.
#76SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Feorthas
Originally Posted by Ulix
We usually dont have many rogues with us, or dps warriors for that matter. And my question wasnt "Is Stones + Poisons + GoA better than WF?". It was: Wont my group dps be better with goa, when it consists of a druid/hunter/warrior/rogue/me and the rogue and warrior use stones/poisons? :p

Anyway, lets drop this! Gimme your opinions on the haste-rating/swingspeed matter!
If your warrior wishes to use a crit stone instead of windfury, find another warrior.

If the rogue wants to use a MH poison instead of windfury, and he's not mutilate + mob isn't immune to poisons, there are better rogues you can find.

If you have to explain it in simple terms to them, say it's like sword spec, except that it works on any weapon, doesn't use talent points, and procs 4 times as much; all they have to do is not buff their mainhand weapon. If they continue to be idiots, well, you can't help that; just request that other melee dps, that can not only hit their BS/Hemo/SS/S&D/MS/WW/BT/whatever on cycle but also is willing to keep an unbuffed mainhand, be found and put into your group. Or ask to be grouped with only hunters / ferals and drop GoA for classes that it'll actually help a good deal.
#77SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
#101SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by slant
I'm not convinced that's actually true. Please correct me if I've missed it, but I haven't seen any math, sims, or tests that showed any reason to have an offhand slower than your mainhand. You just want them both as slow as possible, and while you'll miss out on the extra flurried hit if they aren't the same speed, 2.7 main / 2.6 off is perfectly viable.
I'd tend to agree with this assertion, especially given how well haste procs treat Shamans in terms of itemization efficiency.
#102SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Mios
It makes sense to me that a mainhand that is slightly slower than your offhand would be detrimental to your dps. This is because your offhand will always be hitting slightly before your mainhand, which gives a good chance that your offhand will be eating significantly more windfury procs.

How does this effect two weapons with the same speed? If both of your weapons are always hitting
#176SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Hey!

As an enhancement shaman, I have problems often with my task being recognized (as a buffer).

So I have a petition tho whoever knows how to code, that would greatly help our spec.

Make an addon that calculates the DPS given to party by our buffs. This can be somewhat complicated, but at least some parts are easy.

By selecting Skill Details in swstats, you can get how many Windfury damage a player did. So, it should be easy to extract those numbers and summarize them up in a separate addon. I'm finding that rogues do an average 7% damage from my Windfury Totem, and warriors go up to 15%.

Now, this part was easy. How to calculate STR totem (or AGI if it's down instead of Windfury) and Unleashed Rage?

I'm sure the mats are not easy for certain classes considering instants and procs, but if Recap and SWStats can get so much accurate info about that data, it should not be hard for someone with enough knowledge on scripting and game mechanics to code something easy that can report at the end of the fight something like:

Tradewind's own damage: 340932.
WF given to party: +89023.
+STR given to party: +14932.
UR given to party: +40834.
Total damage added to the raid: 485721.
#177SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Vykromond
The problem with such an approach is that every other class will want to be recognized for its own "non-personal DPS contribution" and some are much more easy to quantify than others.
#178SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Kissmyaxe
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.

Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR.
#179SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2berg
Originally Posted by Kissmyaxe
Also keep in mind that an enhancement shaman is compared to a restoration shaman when boosting the melee group.

Your contribution is 13 extra strength for SoE totem, 133 AP for WF totem and 10% AP (we could average this to 200 AP I guess although it is scalable) from UR.
I agree that previously ele/enh shaman were competing with resto shaman. But this comparison was a lot better pre-expansion than it is now.

If you take one of the many generic melee dps powerhouse groups for example...
feral,
dps war,
rogue,
rogue,
<some shaman>

A resto shaman can still provide great buffs to this group similar to an enhancement shaman. However the resto shamans totems and the other members group buffs (Battle shout, lotp) will be entirely wasted on the resto shaman.

The enhancement shaman drops marginally superior totems but also takes advantage of his totems and the other melee buffs. Also Unleashed rage is a 300 AP buff in a raid setting which is certainly significant since it is almost always up. With these factors altogether, there is a very significant gap in the raid strength of a melee group with an enh shaman and one with a resto shaman.
#180SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
#181SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Malan
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
Sure, and you can sum all your damage lines in the Combat Log for the last 10 minutes fight and come up with your total damage.

Are you retard? I was speaking about something fight-specific, not some dumb and generalistic %'s everyone knows already.
#182SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
Are you retard?
Don't make posts like this please.
#183SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Shinok
Originally Posted by Sebudai
We stopped doing Magtheridon before I picked up my current weapons. This is from our last kill when I was using The Decapitator and Fel Edged Battleaxe. I wasn't in charge of clicking a cube: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...314/index.html

This is from our most recent Karathress: http://www.juggernautguild.com/wws/2...128/index.html
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
#184SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tenu
Originally Posted by Malan
You really don't need an addon to calculate this you can do it ahead of time with a piece of paper and a calculator.
Indeed. The percentage increases make a compelling case for an enhancement shaman in a melee group.

Whether you top some sort of "contribution" meter is pretty irrelevant, especially with all the synergistic effects that go on in a group/raid (ie how much of your UR uptime was from the crit buff you got from a feral druid etc etc).
#185SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Expigator
Originally Posted by Shinok
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
I was looking at the same thing. That's some pretty high dps for lacking that much hit. I guess when you hit something, you hit it hard. Those 2 weapons are super nice as well. I may be rethinking my hit scenario after seeing those WWS reports and your armory.

I think being a rogue before may have had something to do with my +hit lust.
#186SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Unaz
I've been running with an Enhance/Elemental build for a while now, and find it to be fairly effective overall. The 5 second cooldown on shocks especially (helpful on damage and fights where I have to help interrupt), and elemental devastation procs often enough to make the talents worthwhile - kicking my crit up to over 40% quite easily.

My main selling point for it is the ability to maintain a full shock rotation much without having to go to pots (beyond the occasionaly combat pot), on a faster cooldown, and for more damage.

The resto options are good, but you seem to have to put so many points in for that 3%. The totem range increase does help, but is usually not overly necessary with careful positioning.
#187SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
I'm also trying to go for AP and crit over hit, based on Disquette and Pater's simulation results; my gear's not as good as Sebudai's though. One thing that's not indicated by just a cursory glance at his character sheet is the haste rating he's got on his gear; note that his 2.60 speed weapon is dropped to 2.53 without Flurry. If the calculations thus far in the thread are correct, Haste should be very powerful.

Originally Posted by tha_bishop
question:
I use deathbringer (http://www.thottbot.com/i17068) and Mag'hari fury brand (http://www.thottbot.com/i25764) on my lvl 66 shaman.

I guess I should put deathbringer in my MH? It has a proc, is slower and has only a little bit less max dmg. Only reason why I am doubting is because mag'hari does have more max dmg and just more dps.
I'd put the higher DPS weapon in your MH and the lower DPS weapon in your OH. The speed differential doesn't matter so much, but in general I guess I'd rather have a slower weapon in the OH since it's getting fewer WF procs.
#188SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Shinok
Thanks for the WWS logs -- looking at your armory, you have about 4% more crit and 100 more AP than I do, yet deal about 10-15% more DPS. I wouldn't think the delta was that large, especially with some of that being made up by my 6-7% advantage in hit rating.

After seeing how high your DPS is on the WWS logs, I'm definitely interested in a high AP / high crit build, and lowering my hit substantially to that end. Any additional advice on your gearing philosophy is welcome. Would you prefer 1600 AP / 28% crit or 1800 AP / 24% crit?
One thing that might explain some of the 15% gap on Sebudai's dps from yours is that they're swapping other shaman into his group for bloodlust. He gets it 3 times on that fight, lucky bastard.
#189SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
Well, based on numbers found in this thread 1 CR = 2 AP. 4% crit is 88.4 CR so it would only take 176.8 AP to equal the benefit of 4% crit. Thus 200 AP is probably slightly better than 4% crit.

A few months ago I did some math based on my own WWS parses to assign a weighting to each stat. This is when I first discovered that +hit was overvalued, and that crit and attack power are normally a better use of item budget for us. The weightings I came up with a few months ago are very close to what you will find in this thread, and since these guys are probably better at math than I am, I just use theirs.

1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP. Decide how much you value stamina in comparison to those three stats and it will be very easy for you to figure out which items are upgrades for you.

Honestly it's best to not think in terms of stacking one stat. All three of these stats are good for us, and they all depend on eachother. You want all three of them, and what is important is the quantities involved. Yes, one of them might be the 'superior' use of item budget, but it's not like we get to design our own items. We have to use what Blizzard gives us. My hit rating isn't intentionally low because I think +hit sucks, that's just how it worked out for me by following the above stat weightings.

The randomness of drops had an impact aswell because I don't hold out for the statistically best upgrade. If an item is an upgrade, I'm sending on it, regardless of if there is a bigger upgrade out there.

Anyway, yeah we switch our Bloodlusts around like that a lot. Basically whoever benefits the most from it on any given encounter is going to get most, if not all of the Bloodlusts. Also, I've picked up quite a few upgrades very recently(bracer, ring, cloak and breastplate off the top of my head), so the gear in my armory profile is better than what I was using for those WWS parses I linked.

Last edited by Sebudai : 06/29/07 at 6:24 PM.
#190SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Tharas
Boot Enchants
For PvE, either Boars Speed or Cat's Swiftness are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE. Check the following archived posts for the math: (note that these were calculated pre-TBC)
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=20
http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=48
While I am leveling my Shaman (53 now) -- any comment on the utility of Figurine - Golden Hare (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21756)? -- a lot of Draenei Shaman are also going to be JC alts. Has anyone measured the passive runspeed of the trinket vs the boot enchant? (I'll do it tonight if not) I have some other random JC trinkets but nothing special yet, I think all good trinket drops are BRD and higher. +8 AP is the best "offensive" trinket thus far, and based on the math in those linked threads I think run speed trinket might be better than +8AP.

(I'll move this somewhere if it's appropriate, I just couldn't find a better place)
#191SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Myul
It provides the same bonus as any talent, metagem or enchant does - +8% running speed.

So it's just fine while leveling JC, having a third escape option beside stoneclaw + spirit wolf and [Nifty Stopwatch]. But it's not really better then putting Enchant Boots - Minor Speed on your feet or using [Defiler's Mail Greaves] (of any level).

But there are several trinkets, i would prefer over it:
Tidal Charm http://www.wowhead.com/?item=1404
Figurine - Truesilver Boar http://www.wowhead.com/?item=21763 (not because of the AP, but the boar is really strong for this level)
Rune of the Guard Captain - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=19120 (Horde)
Lifestone - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=833
Linken's Boomerang - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11905#00zc
Hand of Justice - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815
#192SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
#193SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Leachim
How would you value Haste Rating compared to CR/AP/HR - assuming your weaponspeed will remain over 1.5 with BL and flurry?
Probably something like 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 1 Haste Rating. According to math posted earlier in this thread it should actually only take 0.9 haste rating to equal the benefit of 2 AP/1 CR/1.43 HR, so I'm rounding up a little.
#194SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Beowolf
EquipOptimizer

Hey Tornhoof, GREAT WORK on setting up the filters! There's only one problem...when I import my armory profile, and lock the items and do an optimization for gems (your v12 did seem to indicate that different gems were more useful depending on gear)...the entire program crashes and has to be restarted. Any idea whats causing this?
#195SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tornhoof
You currently can not optimize Gems only, you shouldn't take the Gems too serious either, since they are only optimized locally (for each item individually), not globally for all the items combined.
#196SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
TradewindKlaatubarada
Few discussions I'd like to see:

Metagem choice?
Haste value as a stat?
T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
+4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 07/02/07 at 9:18 AM.
#197SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
Few discussions I'd like to see:

Metagem choice?
Haste value as a stat?
T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
+4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman of Valor
I'm sure you already know the answer to at least 3 of those questions by this point in the discussion.

Metagem - generally accepted as 3% Crit Dmg > Haste effect > soul shard gem > stam/stun resist

I believe we are treating haste as a 0.9 or 1.0 weight on stats.

The tiered bonuses I can't really speak of since I'm not up to that point yet, although the T5 2pc certainly has value for a player who plays to the hybrid/support style, less value to those who want to be a rogue in mail.

There is no detrimental effect that anyone is aware of from having an OH slower than the MH to the Windfury cycle, the only downside is that you lose the "bugged" flurry effect from having the same MH/OH speeds.

Str/Crit gems are always better than +8 Hit. No shaman should ever be using +8 Hit gems unless for some silly reason they chose not to grab the +9% Hit from talents.

The Ashtongue trinket was shown in the Itemization thread to have less AP bonus over time than the Bloodlust brooch did, so the Tsunami Talisman would likely be the better choice.
#198SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Wolflord
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
Few discussions I'd like to see:

a- Metagem choice?
b- Haste value as a stat?
c- T5 bonus VS T6 bonus?
d- 2.7MH/2.7OH vs 2.7MH/2.8OH
e- +4STR/+4CR better than +8HIT at wich +hit threshold?
f- Tsunami Talisman VS Ashtongue Talisman

a- As long as you happen to have 2 blue gems use Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, failing that Swift Skyfire.

b- One point of haste rating is worth about one point of strength (only 3 posts above yours).

c- T5 4piece is roghly 3-4% dps, T6 4piece is closer to 2%, though the gains from having 4 pieces of the superior tier 6 outweigh this.

d- Conclusions have been inconclusive.

e- The str/crit gem will ALWAYS be better for all levels of gear from zero hit rating to hit capped (unless youre not actually enh specced, just wanting to do some physical dps with your resto spec).

f- On a stand and deliver fight the Ashtongue Talisman looks like a 137AP which is far superior to the Tsunami Talisman. Edit:: or not. Depends on the uptime of the Tsunami AP buff, one proc every 70 seconds or more often would make the Tsunami better than the Ashtongue, any less would favour the Ashtongue (excuse my bad midnight maths).

edit:: Beaten by Malan.

Last edited by Wolflord : 07/02/07 at 9:30 AM. Reason: Bad midnight maths
#199SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Here's the original analysis done on the Ashtongue -
It's not that great. 50% to do 275 is basically 50% uptime, so a passive 137.5 AP. Compared to Bloodlust Brooch, which is a passive 72 that adds 278 for 20/120... 72+46.3=118.3ap. So it's actually only a 19 ap bonus over Bloodlust Brooch, and has the added downside of being less controllable; you can guarantee that the +278ap of the Brooch occurs during SR, boosting its output.

So actually... it's pretty damn bad for where it is in the game... barely an upgrade over a badge trinket.
Its an upgrade over the Bloodlust Brooch, but you lose the control over when the proc occurs.
#200SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Please, check this:



http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/5...izationry2.jpg

If you detect any flaw, tell me.
#201SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that the Tiered set items are meant to be the "best" available. Tiered sets are good, but often they're good because they work in conjunction with other items. I don't think its bad that non-set items are "better" or "as good" - for one thing it gives you more flexibility in upgrading so that you aren't waiting on that one drop forever. Besides, nobody wants to go back to the days of "guys when is it ok to break the Earthfury set bonus?"
#202SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
That time happened because T2 was poor compared to T1, even T2.5 was arguably worse.

The scaling of sets (in healing for example) is a reality now, and TX < TX+1.
#203SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Hehe - I'll reference you to this thread from just a couple weeks ago.
Shaman - Ten Storm - Set bonus
#204SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Unaz
Wait, so is Inscribed Noble Topaz considered the best gem over Bold Living Ruby now?
#205SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ralgarog
I have a question.

With full raid buffs i have 2650 attack power, 39% crit and 155 hit.
One time i placed Rockbiter on my 1.5speed offhand Use Bloodlust, Drums of battle(the one that gives you haste) The abacus of the violent odds and i also go a windfury proc. During that 30 seconds, i did roughly 20% more dps than i would of done with the same buffs and windfury weapon on my offhand.

Was that only because my weapon speed is so fast that windfury does not hit for as hard as it could?

I did a search for a question like this but i found no answers. Thanks in advance.
#206SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Wolflord
Originally Posted by Unaz
Wait, so is Inscribed Noble Topaz considered the best gem over Bold Living Ruby now?
The Living Ruby is only marginally better than the Topaz, so it is always worth considering when the chance comes along to meet a socket bonus.


Ralgarog: Yes, if you had a slow offhand with Windfury you would see a further dps gain.
#207SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ralgarog
I did a search for a question like this but i found no answers. Thanks in advance.
The first post in this thread answers this - do not use an off hand faster than your main hand, and do not use rockbiter on the off hand.
#208SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Stigmata
Any thoughts on these two items.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32746 vs http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30863

The cuffs are socketed with 4 crit 4 str gem.

The cuffs are so much better at first glance, but the haste stacking really draws me towards the swiftstrike, i'm at 105 haste rating atm (10%) and hopefully i will be getting another haste ring soon, but i'm trying to convince myself to go farm the primal airs for the bracers when im not convinced there will be any benefit from 27 haste rating.

So stick to the cuffs or make the swiftstrike?
#209SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Unfortunately Lootzor does not do haste rating yet. But manually adding in the haste rating, giving it equal weight with STR, the lootzor result I get is
Deadly Cuffs = 17.3
Swiftstrike = 17.4

So they're virtually identical. Each is better than Precise Flight and worse than Insidious Bands (though not by much).
#210SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ralgarog
Originally Posted by Malan
The first post in this thread answers this - do not use an off hand faster than your main hand, and do not use rockbiter on the off hand.
My question is not which weapon buff to use and which attack speed is the best.

My question is, "Is it possible for rockbiter to do more offhand damage with a .69 speed off hand than with a 2.6 speed windfury enchanted offhand."
#211SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
One answer to that is "possibly," but a better answer is "you'll probably do more damage with a green L70 2.6 speed offhand than with your 1.5 speed arena weapon." Nobody enjoys telling you that your hard-earned gladiator weapon is worse than a L70 green, but it's the sad truth that results from the 3-sec WF shared cooldown.
#212SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ralgarog
Thank you.
#213SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patrik
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Any thoughts on these two items.
does your guild already have needed amount of hearts of darkness for the sr gear? if not, then there's another thing to consider.
#214SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
I finally ran enough EOTS to pick up http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28944

It seems like the easiest OH to get through solo play, which makes up the vast majority of my time in game these days. The main hand for me that goes with it is of course the Drakefist.
#215SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Expigator
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Any thoughts on these two items.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32746 vs http://www.wowhead.com/?item=30863

The cuffs are socketed with 4 crit 4 str gem.

The cuffs are so much better at first glance, but the haste stacking really draws me towards the swiftstrike, i'm at 105 haste rating atm (10%) and hopefully i will be getting another haste ring soon, but i'm trying to convince myself to go farm the primal airs for the bracers when im not convinced there will be any benefit from 27 haste rating.

So stick to the cuffs or make the swiftstrike?
That's an interesting concern as I was looking at the Tier 5 gloves vs. the Fists of Mukoa. I believe hitting the 4 piece tier 5 set bonus and the added hit from the t5 gloves will push me over the top in that direction. I just don't know the benefits of haste over hit enough to entice me back across the line.

I recently upped my hit to around the 240 mark with a lot of added AP, and it really showed in my DPS output.

I think if you're not hurting on +hit, the swiftstrike look really nice, but the deadly cuffs also provide a lot of stam/crit/hit which can allow you more budget on other items.
#216SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Pater
Each is better than Precise Flight and worse than Insidious Bands (though not by much).
Deadly Cuffs has 28 crit rating, Insidious Bands have 28 agility and as far as I know crit rating > agility (without counting dodge). That means Deadly Cuffs is better for dps purposes.

I'm really interested in the 2.7/2.7 - 2.7/2.8 question. Maybe 2.6 (rising tide)/2.8 is better than both?
#217SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Expigator
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Deadly Cuffs has 28 crit rating, Insidious Bands have 28 agility and as far as I know crit rating > agility (without counting dodge). That means Deadly Cuffs is better for dps purposes.

I'm really interested in the 2.7/2.7 - 2.7/2.8 question. Maybe 2.6 (rising tide)/2.8 is better than both?
I recently picked up the Syphon (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=32262) as my OH and it really increased my total DPS. I'm using Dragonstrike as my MH atm, but plan on upgrading to Rising Tide axe as soon as I can. After seeing the power of the slower offhand, I am a believer.

With the proc rate this syphon has, and its non-uniqueness, i may pick up a 2nd one as a toy after the rogues have one for hemo. It procs a TON and i'm wielding it in my offhand atm.
#218SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ruzia
The syphon is the only thing slower than the hammer BS line of weapons. I know that I for one will never see the inside of black temple. Is the difference between 2.7/2.6 that big of a difference between 2.6/2.6 or 2.6/2.5? In order to get those last two speeds you have to use somewhat sub-par weapons to the hammer line I would think.
#219SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Deadly Cuffs has 28 crit rating, Insidious Bands have 28 agility and as far as I know crit rating > agility (without counting dodge). That means Deadly Cuffs is better for dps purposes.
Agility and crit rating are virtually identical, assuming kings. 1 AGI gives 97% of the benefit of 1 CR when buffed with Kings (22.1*1.1/25 = 0.97). Even weighting AGI at 0.97, Insidious Bands still win out, though it's a closer call: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5
#220SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Pater
Agility and crit rating are virtually identical, assuming kings. 1 AGI gives 97% of the benefit of 1 CR when buffed with Kings (22.1*1.1/25 = 0.97). Even weighting AGI at 0.97, Insidious Bands still win out, though it's a closer call: http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5
True, kings is almost always on me and I didn't notice the different socket bonuses. Thanks for pointing that out.
#221SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by Patrik
does your guild already have needed amount of hearts of darkness for the sr gear? if not, then there's another thing to consider.
We all have SR gear, just struggling to kill mother fu.....sharaz atm.
#222SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Omaris
The first post in this thread answers this - do not use an off hand faster than your main hand, and do not use rockbiter on the off hand.
I'm sorry if this question was already stated:

I realize that the best set up is slow/slower for MH/OH weapons, but if you have the Blacksmithing 1handers they are 2.7, the only weapon in the game slower than 2.7 is the Syphon of Supremus.

So my question is, will 2.7/2.6 be gimp for DPS? the reason I ask is because right now I use T2 Blacksmithing (2.7) and HWL cleaver (2.6) and my future upgrades are T3 blacksmith for MH, and Arena offhand or Netherbane off of Al'ar, which would keep me at 2.7/2.6 speeds.

Furthermore, I am also asking if I should scrap the whole blacksmithing weapon and not even spend the DKP for the nether vortex's.

if my set up is bad, what do you suggest I do? I guess I could go for Arena (2.6) and Netherbane (2.6) and then at least they would be even.

My main concern is that I won't be entering Black Temple anytime in the near future, my guild has yet to down Vashj or Kael and I don't know what my goals should be for weapons atm.
#223SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
You currently can not optimize Gems only, you shouldn't take the Gems too serious either, since they are only optimized locally (for each item individually), not globally for all the items combined.
Yeah but its also crashing if I have, well, anything locked :/
#224SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ruzia
Posted by Stepp on the wow forums:


Considering the lack of diversity of weapons out there, you want 2.6/2.6 MH/OH

Snorkle from the Euro forums posted this as proof:

Ok here's the deal.

There are two common mainhand speeds. 2.7 (dragonmaw, reflex blades, planar edge, etc) and 2.6 (demonblood eviscerator, fool's bane, gladiator's XXX, decapitator, etc etc).

There are 3 common offhand speeds: 2.2 (fel edged battleaxe), 2.4 (runic hammer), 2.6 (boggspine knuckles, gladiator's stuff, harvester of souls, bloodskull destroyer, etc).

If they are the same speed (aka 2.6/2.6) then in no case can one offhand procc cut off more than 1 mh swing (assuming no haste effects, obviously).

If they are of different speeds, the swing timer diverges. Here's what will happen (time when swings will go off, assuming no parry or haste):

2.7 - 0 -> 2.7 -> 5.4 -> 8.1 -> 10.8 -> 13.5 -> 16.2 -> 18.9 -> 21.6 -> 24.3 -> 27 -> 29.7 -> 32.4 -> 35.1 -> 37.8 -> etc,
2.6 - 0 -> 2.6 -> 5.2 -> 7.8 -> 10.4 -> 13 -> 15.6 -> 18.2 -> 20.8 -> 23.4 -> 26 -> 28.6 -> 31.2 -> 33.8 -> etc too bored to continue. They will meet after 70.2 seconds. In the meantime, the average disphasement between the weapons is 1.25 seconds.

Now, as you can see, there will be times where a offhand wf procc will prevent the two next MH swings from proccing WF. This never happens in same-speed situations. It happens in... 6 of the possible scenarios, making it a 23-24 extra % to cut off a MH procc. Considering this happens only if the offhand before it is not in cooldown and proccs wf, we get a total 3.84% less windfuries!!! (3.84% of 20%, so like... a 0.77% lower procc chance).

If we use the same reasoning with 2.6/2.5, then we get the fact that they will meet after 65 seconds, the average disphasement is 1.2, the offhand will prevent proccs from the mainhand in 8 of the swings, meaning a 32% extra % to cut off a MH procc, meaning 5.12% less windfuries or a total of 1.02% lower procc chance.

Same thing for 2.7/2.5 we see they meet after 67.5 seconds, average disphasement is 1.2, offhand can steal proccs in 7 of the swings, meaning a 26% chance to cut off mh proccs meaning which translates into 4.16 less windfuries or a 0.83% lower procc chance.

2.7/2.4 meet after 64.8 seconds, average disphasement is 1.15, 7 swings can cut windfury, meaning a 6% chance to cut off mh proccs meaning which translates into 4.16 less windfuries or a 0.83% lower procc chance.

2.7/2.2 meet after 59.4 seconds, average disphasement is 1.05, again 7 swings can deny mh proccs, meaning again 6% chance blah blah 0.83% procc chance.

2.6/2.4 meet after 64.4 seconds, 1.15 average disphasement, 9 swings can deny a procc of windfury (ignore my english, I've got a monstrous headache and I'm writing on autopilot). 5.5% less windfuries, 1.1% lower procc chance.

And I frankly won't continue. Conclusions: as we expected, the faster, the worse. Really, using weapons with different speeds WILL be ... eh... the opposite of beneficial to your DPS... detrimental that's it. So use 2.6/2.6 or 2.7/2.7.

Snorkle

Final statement: Oh... my FLUXING god, blizzard developers, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?!?! For <beep> sake, who in blazes has to calculate all this crap just to be able to optimize their DPS?! In the name of all that is good in this game, do something ELSE to windfury, this is ridiculous... Reduce the procc% and make the cooldown just weapon dependant... Or something, whatever... And now, off to bed...

Don't really know what to make of this. If you were to MH a 2.6 weapon you would be taking something way inferior to dragonmaw unless it was an arena weapon. I guess the issue here is if you take something 2.6 speed, does the lower quality of item (but better speed) make up for the missed WF chances?
#225SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Omaris
in that quote, snorkle says that using a 2.7/2.6 MH/OH will equal 5.12% less windfuries or a total of 1.02% lower proc chance.

So how much less DPS is that going to give me? and is it worth main handing an arena weapon, and offhand a HWL weapon (level 70 blue version) over T3 BS MH/Arena offhand (2.7/2.6).

My biggest concern is in the end will I have to farm out two arena weapons, because as it stands, I get obliterated in arenas. I was somewhat hoping after I bought my first arena weapon that I could then start working on armor so my team wouldn't have to play 4v5 rofl.

and like you said, does the lower quality weapon with better speed > better quality weapon with worse speed? And at what point do you say no? Should we all be walking around with Deathbringers in our offhand because its a 2.9 speed even though its an inferior weapon?
#226SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Using my mod. 2200/25%c/22%h/0haste. The usual disclaimers apply: this is just my best guess of the way combat mechanics work. Also note that I've ignored any stat differences between the weapons.

Black Planar Edge + Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2200, H=22.0%, C=25.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=172-320/2.7s, OH=177-330/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=159688 | M=(3.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(25.0%), H=(40.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=166198 | M=(3.4%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.1%), C=(25.2%), H=(39.9%)
MH WF: Swings= 63526 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(25.2%), H=(68.3%)
OH WF: Swings= 63338 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(24.8%), H=(68.5%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(24.9%), H=(68.5%)
OH SS: Swings= 33612 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(24.9%), H=(68.4%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 278713507 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.1%) | G=(17%)[345-454], C=(46%)[918-1212], H=(37%)[459-606]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(17%)[169-225], C=(46%)[451-600], H=(37%)[225- 300]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.4%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[1483-1894], H=(58%)[742-947]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.7%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[822-1030], H=(58%)[411-515]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.4%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[920-1212], H=(58%)[459-606]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.8%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[451-600], H=(58%)[225-300]

Flurried white swings:  MH=73.5%, OH=73.9%

DPS = 774.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A nonexistent weapon with the same DPS as Black Planar Edge, but 2.60 speed (ratioed down high end and low end damage by 2.6/2.7) + Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2200, H=22.0%, C=25.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=166-308/2.6s, OH=177-330/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=170880 | M=(3.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(24.9%), H=(40.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=170880 | M=(3.4%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.2%), C=(25.1%), H=(39.8%)
MH WF: Swings= 66966 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(25.0%), H=(68.5%)
OH WF: Swings= 62082 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(24.9%), H=(68.6%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(24.7%), H=(68.6%)
OH SS: Swings= 33585 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(25.1%), H=(68.4%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 282312912 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.7%) | G=(17%)[332-437], C=(46%)[885-1166], H=(37%)[443-583]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.8%) | G=(17%)[169-225], C=(46%)[451-600], H=(37%)[225- 300]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.4%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[1429-1823], H=(58%)[715-912]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.3%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[821-1030], H=(58%)[411-515]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.9%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[887-1166], H=(58%)[442-583]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.8%) | G=(never),        C=(42%)[451-600], H=(58%)[226-300]

Flurried white swings:  MH=83.0%, OH=83.0%

DPS = 784.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My initial take is that there's about a 1% dps penalty for wielding 2.7+2.6 instead of a same-dps 2.6+2.6.
#227SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2slant
More great data. Can anyone confirm in real-world testing?

You've got to love how much ammunition this long thread continues to provide against the windfury cooldown mechanic. It's just plain broken on so many levels.
#228SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Xoya
Could we get a calculation on 2.7/2.8 and 2.6/2.8?
#229SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
At this point, I'd prefer to answer questions on how to use my java sim so that people can run it for themselves, than to take run requests. There's a link in the OP and some instructions in the first lines of the file for folks who've never run java on their machine. It's not a finished product by any means, but I tried to make it easy to input and run your own data.
#230SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
If I have 4 piece t5 bonus shall I change this part of the code
	// Flurry
	if (flurryCount > 0)
		currentHaste = 0.30 + PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;
	else
		currentHaste = PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;
to this:
	// Flurry
	if (flurryCount > 0)
		currentHaste = 0.35 + PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;
	else
		currentHaste = PLAYER_HASTE_GEAR;
Am I right?
#231SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
I get this error when I try to run your mod:
"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: ESCS"
I have the latest JRE. Anything I'm missing?
#232SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
That looks like the correct haste fix.
The error you see is possibly due to not being in the correct directory, not having the right PATH setting, or not using the correct command lines.
Command lines should be:

> javac ESCS.java

> java ESCS


(You can replace the second step with "java ESCS > out.txt" if you wish to send it to a text file.)
#233SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Freyalis
Frankly, I'm pretty annoyed at the small speed discrepancies as well.

Due to bad luck in Kara and heroics I am still left with my Planar Edge, 60 HWL Cleaver combo (2.7 / 2.9) which performs well enough for my liking.

What annoys me is that, after dropping far to much gold than I wanted to to get my Blacksmithing to where it is now, My shiny axe is going to be potentially useless compared to a 2.6 / 2.6 set up ~_~.

Its enough to make me wonder if I should just leave it, spend my badges on a Bloodlust Brooch + something else and grind out S2 arena wpns or wait for Decap, Fools bane etc etc to drop.
#234SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Unless you're in Hyjal/BT, this discussion is really moot. You should be working on a Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver/Pummeler anyway... there's no better OH in game. Assuming you're using a Fool's Bane or better (e.g. T2 BS, Decap) MH and a blue 71.7 DPS OH, the Arena weapon will be put to better use in your OH. Then, you get to decide if you want an Arena weapon MH, or if you're close enough to a T3 or Hyjal/BT MH. That type of decision is just an opinion, not something someone else can answer for you.
#235SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Chemoshvt
Regarding +hit, I'm current at 238 with 228 Crit rating and 1352 attack power. Most if not all of my items are stuffed with +8 hit gems. My armory profile is on the left there, but should I -at this point- start filling up my gem slots with str gems? I was under the assumption I should be maintaining a balance between my crit rating and hit ratings...not sure if thats entirely accurate anymore. Our raid always has 3-5 paladins in it as well, so it's almost a gaurentee that I have Kings/Salv/Might on every raid.

I've heavily stacked haste with Dragonspine (not shown in profile due to whip), 2x Mongoose, Dragonstrike proc. The additional haste looks good, but in terms of maximizing my DPS should I change anything gem wise?

Here are a few WWS logs as well if that helps any:

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=3pedu4w5uslzi
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=bnxrixlmhkiha

Last edited by Chemoshvt : 07/03/07 at 2:39 AM.
#236SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Stigmata
I'm not convinced having 2 same speed weapons would increase my DPS, given that almost 65% of my dmg now comes from white hits why would 5% more WF's increase my dmg vs the loss of my weapon haste proc.

10% haste from a weapon = 10% more white dmg? Or am i missing something here.

Snorkles numbers look right and i'm not gonna dispute that, but WF is not the be all and end all of shaman damage.
#237SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Chemoshvt
Regarding +hit, I'm current at 238 with 228 Crit rating and 1352 attack power. Most if not all of my items are stuffed with +8 hit gems. My armory profile is on the left there, but should I -at this point- start filling up my gem slots with str gems? I was under the assumption I should be maintaining a balance between my crit rating and hit ratings...not sure if thats entirely accurate anymore.
Try reading the first post of the thread.
#238SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Pater
Originally Posted by Stigmata

10% haste from a weapon = 10% more white dmg? Or am i missing something here.
Yeah, this should be right. Because it doesn't give much (if any) boost to overall WF dps, my sim runs last week said that the 10% haste should give you net ~6.6% DPS boost, as long as it doesn't drop your weapon speeds below 1.50.
#239SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Chemoshvt
Originally Posted by Rob
Try reading the first post of the thread.
Done.. Dropped all my hit gems for Str and CR gems. At .612 HR to CR ratio now (as opposed to my 1.2 ratio before), but I still have that maulgar's warhelm to replace anyway.

Another thing that I'm not entirely sure of is the exact amount of haste before it starts giving an adverse affect to dps. Right now I have flurry up almost constantly, plus 2x mongoose, Dragonspine and Dragonstrike proc. It's an enormous amount of haste and it's definitely dropping my weapon speeds below 1.5 when it's all procing at the same time (which is quite often)

When everything is procing at once I'm running at about 51% off the trinket/weapon proc. That's not figuring in mongoose procs and flurry. Not sure if I should eventually drop my dragonspine trophy or the brooch when a Tsunamii Talisman drops. Is haste god forever or does it eventually have a diminishing return?
#240SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Stigmata
I dont think there is much way to test when it really has an adverse affect, dropping below 1.5 speed means less WF's but at the same time it means more white damage.

It is difficult to measure at what point it is bad, really bad and then better.

Presumably hitting with both hands at 1.0 speed would be a net gain over both hands at 1.5speed? Given this is probably possible with all haste modifiers active.
#241SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Pater
The error you see is possibly due to not being in the correct directory, not having the right PATH setting, or not using the correct command lines.
Command lines should be:

> javac ESCS.java

> java ESCS

(You can replace the second step with "java ESCS > out.txt" if you wish to send it to a text file.)
I don't have an english operating system so I can't tell you the exact error message what I get after giving "javac ESCS.java" command. It's someting about "javac" command not being recognized as a valid command.
#242SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Kletha
Before in the thread (I think it's page 4 or 5) there is a diagram with the different hastes and what happens at different %.

It's good up til (I think it was) 40%, then it acctually decreases your dps til you get up to 55% haste where it comes back again and the dps is good again.

For more/better info on it, check the post I referenced.

Edit; page 4, post #78.
(also corrected wording)
#243SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
I don't have an english operating system so I can't tell you the exact error message what I get after giving "javac ESCS.java" command. It's someting about "javac" command not being recognized as a valid command.
You need 2 things to do this. The JDK (Java Development Kit) in order to compile the class file. When you input the command "javac ESCS.java" you're telling the JDK to compile the code into a binary file. Then you need the JRE (Java Runtime Environment) in order to execute the java code, which is done by invoking the JRE through "java ESCS"

Originally Posted by Kletha
Before in the thread (I think it's page 4 or 5) there is a diagram with the different hastes and what happens at different %.
The direct link to that post is already in my OP on the first page.
#244SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
actual tested haste data in the bottom of the flurry thread now:

[Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?

weapon combos used:

2.6/2.6, 2.6/2.0, 2.6/1.4, 2.0/2.0, 2.0/1.4, and 1.4/1.4

see for yourself if same speed weapons make a big difference. It's post #69. Look at the line called "% extra attacks" for the relevant data for this discussion.
#245SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
I can't get Java Simulator to work. I get the following error:

"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: escs/java"

Can anyone post results with 2.7/2.7 vs 2.7/2.8? thanks.
#246SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
I can't get Java Simulator to work. I get the following error:

"Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: escs/java"
You must compile the java class first. Type "javac ESCS.java" and THEN type "java ESCS"
You can't skip the first step.
#247SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Malan
You must compile the java class first. Type "javac ESCS.java" and THEN type "java ESCS"
You can't skip the first step.
I couldn't compile either. I found out that "javac" application is not included in JRE (the one that file says you need to d/l) but it is on JDK (with dev tools).
#248SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2martin0641
I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?
#249SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2f1reburn
I also had some problems with getting the simulator to compile, it appeared to have something to do with the pathing, so that it can't find the "javac" command.

Manually adding the PATH to the system environment variables as described here solved it for me.
#250SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2TradewindKlaatubarada
At last I made it work. See the silly results:

93 DPS 2.7 weapon does the same dps as 100 DPS 2.8 weapon when compared to a 2.7 mainhand.

(Using Talon as an example of OH, altough it is MH).

So, 0,1 seconds of difference between MH and OH makes an increase of 7 DPS in the weapon completely worthless.

#251SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.
#252SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
According to theory at least. This all would require testing to verify.
A man after my own heart ;-)

No thoughts yet on the flurry testing linked near the bottom of page 10, anyone?
#253SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.
#254SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2martin0641
I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?
#255SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Hedin
If any1 is interested in 3 sec WF cooldown showing addon - try out my ACE2 WF3sec v0.4, btw lucky shamans with 1st tier5 set bonus will be surprised :-)

Last edited by Hedin : 07/04/07 at 1:49 AM.
#256SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?
#257SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
I could lie and tell you I understood your Flurry stuff Disquette but I wouldn't be very convincing.
The main thing it shows is that having 2 identical speed weapons doesn't show much (any) bonus over having weapons that are very different in speeds for the purposes of flurry uptime.
#258SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan
I don't like surprises, what's the surprise?
it just shows Invigorated cooldown in center of the screen when it's on
If you don't like the position try to edit core.lua
local x=0
local y=50

Last edited by Hedin : 07/05/07 at 3:47 AM.
#259SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
93 DPS 2.7 weapon does the same dps as 100 DPS 2.8 weapon when compared to a 2.7 mainhand.
Of course it's only a theory. The java script does not model procs like mongoose, dragonspine trophy, nor the proc of the 2.8 mace what is actually an increase in dps (stealing life does damage, not just healing)
But I wouldn't say the script is not useful at all. I'll try out a lot of weapon combinations.
#260SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by martin0641
I was comparing the new Vet boots with the weighted values and it seems one pair is worth 62 points and the other 64. I was aiming at 50% raid crit with 1900-2200 atk power between trinkets. I figured the massive amount of crits would outpace the seemingly small amount of damage gains from attack power, especially from WF damage. Especially when I gain so much attack from trinkets and buffs, I thought the crit itself during the 15-20 second trinket periods would be a really big boost. Is 28 attack power really worth .5 crit chance?
50% seems high, ofc no one would turn down having that much crit, but how can u get it even close to that without sacrificing all hit/ap ?
#261SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?

Btw I ran your sim today Pater and it matched EXACTLY the DPS I put out on Mag tonight. Well done sir.

Last edited by Malan : 07/03/07 at 8:20 PM.
#262SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
What is Mag's armor mitigation?
#263SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm somewhat curious, Disquette/Pater or anyone else, have we modeled the effect of hitting SS every 10 sec when its lit versus only hitting it when a WF CD is up?
I see u tried my addon? :-)

Last edited by Hedin : 07/04/07 at 1:49 AM.
#264SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Spooky
Thank you for posting this excellent source of information Malan and thank you for those who drafted and contributed to the theorycraft. My eyes were opened on several matters and I know my raid performance will improve as a result.
#265SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Magna_FA
Just wanted to put up some data from my testing I did today. I had the Syphon of the Nathrezim (2.8 speed 100dps) from BT and just received a Netherbane (2.6 speed 93dps) and after reading this thread started to wonder which would be better in my main hand, considering so many people saying that you should always put the slower weapon in your off hand to minimize wf procs. But in this case, there is a 7 dps difference in the 2 weapons as well as the speed difference.

So I took my fugly neon axe and went to the Blasted Lands and beat on those level 55 unkillable mobs. I did a run of .5 mill damage with the slower weapon in my main hand, then took the dps measurement from Violation (trying to keep both str and agi totems up at all times), then again but with the faster weapon as suggested in my main hand. Then repeated those 2 tests again to double check and average. I could have probably done it more to be more accurate, but I was already seeing a trend. In this case, it seemed the slower, higher dps, higher damage range weapon was best used in the main hand, rather than having the slow weapon in the off hand. I know it's probably not too accurate, but the difference was on average of the 2 tests, 34 dps difference in favor of the slow weapon in the main hand.

So to double check this, I used Pater's java simulator and put in my weapons and something along the lines of my gear (couldn't remember the exact in raid values, so I just guessed, none the less, no matter the values, it's close enough to illustrate the issue.) And this is what I got:

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=170-317/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=177151 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.1%)
OH Wh: Swings=164301 | M=(5.5%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(26.9%)
MH WF: Swings= 70270 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.7%), H=(57.8%)
OH WF: Swings= 58622 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.9%), H=(57.6%)
OH SS: Swings= 33654 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.2%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 342175512 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(34.5%) | G=(16%)[356-466], C=(61%)[948-1243], H=(23%)[476-622]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(16%)[195-258], C=(61%)[522-688], H=(23%)[261- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.9%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[1551-1963], H=(45%)[775-981]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.3%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[968-1202], H=(45%)[484-601]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.7%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[949-1243], H=(44%)[476-622]
OH SS: Dmg=(04.0%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[521-688], H=(44%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings:  MH=85.9%, OH=85.9%

DPS = 950.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------ ESCS -------------------------------------
-- INPUT DATA -- 
Player AP=2400, H=20.0%, C=36.0%, Haste=0.0%.  SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=196-365/2.8s, OH=170-317/2.6s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA -- 
MH Wh: Swings=164272 | M=(5.4%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(36.1%), H=(27.0%)
OH Wh: Swings=177137 | M=(5.6%), D=(6.5%), G=(25.1%), C=(35.8%), H=(27.0%)
MH WF: Swings= 63100 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(36.2%), H=(57.4%)
OH WF: Swings= 65392 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.3%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(36.0%), H=(57.4%)
OH SS: Swings= 33634 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(never), C=(35.8%), H=(57.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 344599700 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.0%) | G=(16%)[392-516], C=(61%)[1041-1375], H=(23%)[521-688]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.1%) | G=(16%)[178-233], C=(61%)[474-622], H=(23%)[238- 311]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.5%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[1698-2165], H=(44%)[849-1082]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.4%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[888-1092], H=(44%)[444-546]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.4%) | G=(never),        C=(56%)[1046-1375], H=(44%)[521-688]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.6%) | G=(never),        C=(55%)[475-622], H=(45%)[237-311]

Flurried white swings:  MH=85.8%, OH=85.9%

DPS = 957.2
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not the dps difference I saw in game on a level 55, but again, the slower weapon in the off hand did not win out. So this goes to show ya, do your own testing on your own circumstances before just throwing that slower weapon in your off hand. In this case, the dps difference out weighed the gain from the weapon speed difference.

I'd like to hear other people's responses and testing in this area, as well as any thoughts and ideas.
#266SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Freyalis
Well after running Pater's sim for a while it pretty much confirms what we postulated before in that Potency == Fiery for DPS.

Average over five runs Potency added 9.4 DPS (simulated by adding 40 AP)

Fiery averaged out to 9.52 DPS.

I simulated fiery by calculating proc chance (27% for a 2.7 speed weapon like Planar Edge)
then obtaining number of procs from total MH attacks

Fiery MH = 264552 Attacks @ 27% proc chance

[top] 71429 Fiery Attacks @ 48 avg dmg per for 3,428,592 dmg


9.52 DPS increase

Fiery average damage assumes
* +10% Coe
* +15% Imp Scorch
* +5% Misery
* 1.025 Crit modifier (5% for +50% dmg)
* 0.87 Resist rate modifier assuming Natures Guidance.

So Technically i would say that Potency is better as it doesn't rely on outside variables in order to perform. And of course either are stripped by Crusader or Mongoose.
#267SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Brum
Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.
#268SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Celetroll
Stacking haste for shaman

Got a question that I can´t quite seem to find answer. While we all agree that haste is good for shamans, then question - how good is exactly stacking different haste - remains bit unclear.

Source of my hesitation is item budget values. As haste does not stacks on 1+1=2 principle, wouldn´t we be better off not stacking haste? Let me explain.

Let´s imagine that we have two identical dps output equipment for the same slot. One with HR, other with CR/AP or what ever. Now, when we pick up another HR item and stack it up with our current one (don´t forget flurry as well), then would HR stacking formula render our previously equal HR item inferior in dps output to AP/CR/HR item, that stacks on 1+1=2 bases? Since you get full benefit from AP/CR/HR but only partial from HR stacks. So when we weight and HR item, it must have way superior dps stats when compared with a single item?

That question is becoming more and more important to me every day, since we are raiding BT. Atm i could apply for http://www.thottbot.com/i32749, but I cant really figure out, is it worth the dkp or not. As well as should I use battle drums while bloodlusted or wait until bloodlust wears off, what gives more overall dps?
#269SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Boro
Pater's Calculator

Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.
#270SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Magna, this is acknowledged in the "Itemizing Enhancement" thread. Having a slow main hand is important as well.

Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock... And that Mag, after any curses, fairy fire, sunders, etc, happens to have exactly the armor reduction that you have in the sim.

If you really want to show something cool, do the blasted lands tests (armor value = 23% mitigation) and match it up to the sim when using nothing special, then add more variables as you go (storm strike, windfury).
#271SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Brum
Might want to add that War Stomp and heals reset both swing timers, even if it's an invigorated LHW.
Well the war stomp I understand since its a cast time, but do we have combat log confirmation of the Invigorated reset?

Originally Posted by Boro
Sorry if I missed the link to this earlier in this thread but could somebody provide it for me please.
Its on the first post of the thread, down toward the bottom.

Originally Posted by Disquette
Malan, not to take away from Pater's sim at all, but about it matching your dps figures... This would assume you had 100% time on target for Mag, had 0 weapon procs, no Heroism, and never used earthshock/flameshock...
Oops forgot all about that.
#272SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Khlysti
Invigorated does reset swing timer, I can go out and get a log report if needed, but casting an invigorated lhw right before a mh swing is due results in me waiting ~2 sec (from when the lhw was cast) for the next mh swing.

As to the comment on stacking haste, the game simply adds the haste ratings together and then applies them, so it is indeed 1+1=2, were it to apply them sequentially (like it does with flurry/heroism over something hasted by rating) then it would actually give more dps not less.
#273SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
#274SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Malan
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
I had a 0/13/x build for a while and healing with NS definitely resets the swing timer.
#275SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
• Valoran
Originally Posted by Malan
What about the enhance shaman who take Nature's Swiftness, does using that reset the timer as well?
AFAIK, this is the normal behaviour when a global cooldown is used.

Last edited by Valoran : 07/04/07 at 6:14 PM.
#276SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
choble
How good would Darkmoon Card: crusade be when compared to other trinkets say the ones suggested in the first post?

Last edited by choble : 07/04/07 at 10:08 PM.
#277SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Jules_AA
Metagems?

Heya,

I was just curious into what meta gem would be the best choice for us atm.
the old +24 ap/crit rating one or one of the new haste increasing / agil+crit dmg increasing gems.
#278SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Khlysti
Originally Posted by Valoran <img class="inlineimg" src="/im
#301SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2slant
Parry doesn't cause an instant attack; it hastes your swing in progress. The wowwiki entry is current and correct, as far as I know. Instant spells for non shamans/paladins reset the swing timer, so if you attack at 3.0s, your next swing will occur 3.0s after you cast the spell.
#302SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Disquette
Well, I just looked at the wowwiki parry entry, and am a bit miffed that someone completely obliterated the additions I'd made to it indicating the results I'd found doing my own parry tests and the 40% pro-rating.

This is a downside to a wiki. Any old schlub can destroy any evidence s/he wants to. I feel no need to repost the data and analysis now that I know what is likely to happen to it again.

EDIT: this particularly rankles me
There does not appear to be a discernible pattern which determines the amount of swing-time reduction a player receives, and it may indeed be possible for the attack to be sped up even faster depending on the circumstance.
/barf.
#303SourcePosted onundefined
#326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
Its been discussed a few times. To be honest I'd never even heard of it (I think most people call it twisting) until the xpack and all the Alliance shaman were the ones pushing it forward. I've no intention of trying it out. I already feel like I'm waiting on GCD quite a bit and adding that twisting into a 10 second rotation is going to be crazy. Trying to fit 2 totem drops + 2 Shocks + SS into a 10 second period is going to fill the entire period with a GCD. The mana cost alone is enough to dissuade me without even thinking of the benefit - there's no way I could sustain dropping 2 totems every 10 seconds over a 10 minute fight.
I am on the same line of thought.
While it may be a boost, I cant see why I would ever be arsed to do it.

Last edited by Stigmata : 07/06/07 at 2:23 PM.
#327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ilmatar
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.

There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd).

The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic.
#328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
I get nervous if I get below 50% mana - I like to have a big reserve to spam heals on myself for when I inevitably pull something I shouldn't be pulling, and I am prone to throw heals at people to help out when I can.
#329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Aett
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
I am a non-totem weaver, but I tried it for Gruul last time (well for a little bit) just to see if it was as annoying as I thought it would be.

There was visible benefit (roughly judging by ktm), between the time I tried weaving threat/wf and the time that I just ran WF. However, dancing around the cave ins, trying to keep shocks going, and shatters, I gave this up after I hit my first Shamanic Rage. My mana was getting eaten up faster (No more 5s ticks), and I just wasn't comfortable with the mana levels I was sustaining, the delay on shocks due to GCD and the chaining effect that had on SS (when using SS to try to proc WF after wfcd).

The fight just felt more chaotic to me. Part of that was just, obviously, not having a bunch of experience twisting totems. The threat benefit was there, but I really only saw the Arms warrior get a real win from that, because early on in the fight she had some spikes. Overall, it wasn't something that I really think is a great tactic.
I only use tranquil air on very threat sensitive fights. I find I'm not really ever threat capped except when I'm using shamanistic rage, bugged judgment of light (320 healing procs), and heroism at the same time, in which case my treat sometimes spikes on omen up above 1300 tps; a number that I'm obviously not capable of generating with damage alone.

I did use TA on void reaver last night with a great deal of success, I was able to go all out the entire fight and came close pulling aggro at the very end. We have our melee dps stay in the entire fight instead of stepping out to avoid poundings. My dps warrior did unfortunately die to aggro with less than a minute left in the fight.

EDIT: Took the question to a more appropriate thread.

Last edited by Aett : 07/06/07 at 4:38 PM.
#330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Hedin
Hourglass of the Unraveller - +300 AP for 10sec, 10% proc on crit (3% chance to proc with 30% crit rate) 45sec cooldown
I am sorry but since i made addon for collecting cooldowns i newer got it to proc faster then 50 seconds, and i raid a lot...
#331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Well that's the official WoWHead.com data for it and it agrees with all of the other major data mining sites.
#332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Shabadu
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying. Using them for a week on Teron and such where I have a problem with coming close to the threat cap seemed to make a difference, but I didn't have any hard numbers on it. The single best time I've found to use them is in the first 20 or so seconds of a fight so you start at very low threat with a slightly higher ceiling to deal with WF's unpredictability.

As for my latest experiences, I was forced to twist TA/WF during the last 20% of our latest anetheron to bloodlust my group. I was pretty much capped, while my rogues and warriors were safely behind. Managed to keep DPSing through it coming very close to pulling aggro, and I probably would've without twisting it. I would never consider it for a long term solution, I felt really pressured by the GCD and watching Omen, enough so that it wouldn't be worth the marginal gains.
#333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malacort
Originally Posted by Aett
One thing I've been trying recently, and I haven't really seen it discussed anywhere, is totem weaving (not my name for it, but I like it). I basically use this macro:

/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem
I speced into both reduced totem cost and mental quickness and found that when everything is going right with procs and timing, I can sustain totem weaving + flame shock every 12 seconds indefinitely. If I run low on mana I can always just stop shocking or leave Windfury down until shamanistic rage is up again.

My group is almost always me, a warrior, and three rogues. Every so often we get a feral druid. I've gotten no reports of windfury going down while using this macro (when I started I asked my group to pay attention to it), and my group seems to like it quite a bit. I'm going off the assumption that the totem weaving alone would be more raid dps than me using that mana to spam shocks.

I was wondering if anyone had any insight into whether this is truly a good idea. Seems like a better alternative to the flame/earth shock rotation that seems to be the consensus.
I posted these 2 macros in the totem thread, I use them all the time instead of shocking, as I'm there to make the whole group's dps better, not just my own.

MACRO 14 "G/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
MACRO 15 "TA/WF" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=9/combat Windfury Totem, Tranquil Air Totem, stopmacro;
END
#334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Myul
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=28548

-800 Threat, sadly it has a 2 minutes cooldown. Seems not worthy like all the trinkets excluding [Prism of Inner Calm] (if/when it's working as intended).
#335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
I wonder if anyone can help me with the following:
I usually time my Shamanistic Rage in combination with Lust for Battle (278 ap from Bloodlus brooch trinket) and Blood Fury (orc racial, 282 ap). Now Id like to get these three actions into a single macro but failed in typing the proper macro for it so far.
Anyone here can give the right Macro for that?

Note: The order of actions = Blood Fury -> Bloodlust Brooch -> Shamanistic Rage
Bloodlust Brooch is equipped in my first trinketslot.

Thnx!
#336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2songah
the macro is

/stopcasting
/cast blood fury
/stopcasting
/use bloodlust brooch
/stopcasting
/cast shamanistic rage


you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order
#337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Kirion
Originally Posted by songah
the macro is

/stopcasting
/cast blood fury
/stopcasting
/use bloodlust brooch
/stopcasting
/cast shamanistic rage


you can use this same thing to insta trinket/em/ns/cl just use /stopcasting and use or cast whatever you want in order
Blood Fury starts gcd isnt it? this macro wont work.


i'd write something like this

/castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage

mash 3 times

note: this will not work if something on cd...

another version will be

/use bloodlust brooch
/castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage

again you need to mash it

Last edited by Kirion : 07/07/07 at 8:13 AM.
#338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
Originally Posted by Kirion
Blood Fury starts gcd isnt it? this macro wont work.


i'd write something like this

/castsequence reset=15 blood fury, bloodlust brooch, shamanistic rage

mash 3 times

note: this will not work if something on cd...

another version will be

/use bloodlust brooch
/castrandom blood fury, shamanistic rage

again you need to mash it
No, the macro he gave DOES work, as trinkets afaik dont start the gbc
So /cast Blood Fury
/use Bloodlust Brooch
/cast Shamanistic Rage

Thnx for the help!
#339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
#340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
I believe you can customize Scrolling Combat Text to show specific gains always as for example message or critical, making it easier to spot. The readme shows alot of information about this and how to do it.
#341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
If you use SCT, find sct_event_config.lua and writhe in this line:
[21] = {name="!!IMBA T5!!", search="You gain Invigorated", r=0/256, g=256/256, b=100/256, frame=SCT.MSG, class={"Shaman"}},
You need to enable custom events ingame:
/sct menu
find Animation/Misc. Options
#342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Originally Posted by Shabadu
What is everyone's experience with Shrouding Potions? After pulling aggro on VR a couple weeks back one of the guild alchemists sent me a couple stacks and told me to stop dying.
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
#343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Idioteque
I find they key to low threat generation is well timed shamanistic rage and totem weaving with it, also dropping traq at the start of the fight for 1-2 mins also helps.
#344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
I've had decent results with just ragging on our tanks till their TPS improves.
#345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Malan
Meh. My raid leader is now encouraging me to pull aggro and die so that I can just a get a threat wipe.
While my raid leader doesn't encourage me to pull aggro and die, often times, on fights like VR its the only thing that can be done. Have to love the Shaman's Feign Death.

Also, up until now I haven't played around with totem weaving, I think I am going to mess around with the Windfury / Tranquil Air mix a bit and see if that helps out at all. Honestly I think the mana could be better spent some where else, but lower DPS is better the no DPS I suppose.
#346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patrik
I used to have great problems with aggro as well of course, but I have to say, that after our recent nerf, our tanks are way ahead of me threat-wise. So if any of you is experiencing this kind of problem now, i'd suggest providing your tanks with link to some basic tanking mechanics forum (or some equip - I didn't believe Stigmata he has no threat problems at all on Maghteridon for example, but after our tanks got few items, its the same for me).

Of course things get nasty on Void Reaver for example, but Big5 combo (BoS, TA, Subtlety enchant, Fetish of the Sand Reaver and Prism of Inner Calm) still works like a charm and I can go full damage.
#347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Leachim
Theres no need to pull agro as an enhancement shaman fighting Void Reaver simply becouse that encounter isnt about enhancement shamans (or any meleeclass for that matter) maximising their dps - its about a raid surviving while doing a certain amount of stable, reasonable dps.
Threat rly isnt an issue any longer imo, except for a few fights (for example gruul, morogrim, magtheridon) where its there for a reason, namely preventing the fight from becoming even more easymode than it already is.
So for any encounter where you hit a threat-cap: just slow down your dps, its ok, its working as intended and theres no need for more of your dps to win the battle. The majority of current encounters however, does not suffer from any of these threat-issues - sadly enough they have other ways of capping our dps output to a level that is fitting for our role as support-dps.
#348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
I think out of our current killable bosses, Void Reaver is the only one I have any real difficulty with threat. While I can stay alive through 75% of the fight, the last 25% or so I usually start capping out and its harder for the tanks to push past me, not impossible, just harder. Usually at the 25% mark I either remove the Windfury enchants from my weapons or die.

As for fights like Morogrim and Magtheridon, I never have problems with threat, ever. I can push my dps to its max and don't have problems. Of course at the moment my weapons are a bit on the fast side, but even once I have the slower weapons I don't think it will be a problem. We have some pretty amazing tanks.

One thing I had completely forgot about, is the Subtlety enchant to cloak, going to have to get that.
#349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2ikillyouheal
I've glared through this whole thread, but I couldnt find any post(Maybe I'm just too tired for this at the moment) about 4p Gladiator gear(Mostly s2)?

(4) Set: Reduces the cooldown of your Stormstrike ability by 1 sec.

Wouldnt this result in 10% more total SS damage done? Would this be worth considering for a raiding shaman to use?

Anyone that's in a better shape to try to calculate how much DPS this would end up as (Keeping in mind that this would result in raid nature damage getting a bit more boost aswell.)
#350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Malan
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
#351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Malan
Off the top of my head I'd say you'd risk losing more DPS than you'd gain since there's a lot of itemization points spent on Resilience, and the 2pc bonus is providing little to no benefit in a raid.
I'd figured as much about the 2p bonus, I guess it's really a matter of where you are in gear progression, (T6 would not be worth switching out, but maybe Karazhan epics?)
#352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Patonus
ok, I've read this thread and read some of the player feedback and I just want to confirm what I did was the best choice.

I used to have 1446 AP, 212 HR and 24.45% Crit.

Since then I have changed my gems around to reflect 1472 AP, 188 Hit and 25.99 Crit.


Was this the right choices? (basically changed the +8hit gems to the +4crit/+4str gems) or did I make a mistake at understanding priority stats?
#353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Yes it was the right choice. I actually made the same change recently, I was sitting about 3 hit rating below the Hit Cap (25.6% I believe - with talents of course). Recently changed hit gems for 4crt/4str gems or 8 str gems.

I've had a few people on my server ask me about a certain Hit level they should be aiming for, generally tell them there isn't one but 170-180 is a nice number. Right around the 19-20% hit range. I can't say for sure this is the correct area, a lot of the enhancement shamans here raid with much less and are further progressed then I am, its just what I aim for and like.
#354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Brum
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
You can use Power Auras to display an image on any part of the screen while the buff is active
#355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
TotemLover
Removed.

Last edited by TotemLover : 08/08/07 at 5:03 AM.
#356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2songah
its been said wf on warrior/combat rogues are much much more beneficial than wrath of air. If you guys have a enhance sham, put them in the melee group if not i suggest you stay with melee for str and wf but switch out to another group just to drop mana tide.
#357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.

Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
#358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Hedin
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Does anyone have a good addon or suggestion how to notice that "Invigorated" has procced (instant heal, T5 2-set bonus). With all the raidbuffs beeing on (~15 total) its bit hard to notice, but really useful to top yourself or someone esle off without loosing more than a glc.
Have you tried my addon?
#359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tilley
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Your talent tree is a mess. You didn't pick up Unleashed Rage which means you are now a DW DPS shaman that offers little to a group over a resto shaman except that you still can't heal worth a damn because you don't have the deep Resto talents. You need to at a minimum pick up Unleashed Rage. I'd recommend dropping 2H Weapons and Healing Way and probably NS to make up the points you need for that. I can't even fathom raiding without Shamanistic Rage so I'm not sure how you're getting along without it.

Why is the Violet Eye badge the best trinket that you have for that slot? You didn't pick up the Bladefist trinket at least from Hellfire Peninsula?

+150 Health to Chest is a Tank enchant. You need to use +6 Stats instead.

Your weapon enchants are horrid - I'm hoping those are only because you're working on the mats for some real enchants.
#360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Wandre
Originally Posted by Tilley
Hi, i have browsed the 15 pages of this thread that i was linked and i am finding it Very informative. Thanks for all the hard work you fellas have done with this theory crafting and i am hoping it will help me more in the future.

Although before reading this thread i think i have made some bad choices in the way of gear.

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...issan&n=Tilley

If some one could take a browse over that and tell me where i should improve although i am pretty sure i know where, for example. 1.5 offhand is a bad idea and i will work for the 2.6 speed offhand. I replaced some gems with +8 str over +16 ap but kept some of the major ones like +20 AP because by my calculations it was better then +8 str. I have done this with a few gem slots, Also my trinkets need replacing but i think they are the main issues.

Any advice would be much appreciated and any item recommendations that are easily obtainable would also be much appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Adding to the above I'd look at switching up your offhand to a slow 2.6 speed weapon. You're in around the same boat as me right now having a nice high offhand DPS wep that's too fast. Slow down that offhand so you can stop eating your WF procs. It looks like you do a bit of PVP so I recommend picking up an arena one-hand wep. You'll probably do much closer to rogue DPS with just that.

I've only been enhance for 2 weeks now and my DPS is sorely lacking because of the wep in particular. It's really painful to see WF proc for around 2.5k-3k damage on main hand and a weak 1k-1.5k on offhand. And to see it many times over because of the speed is just that much worse.

Another thing is try gemming up your hit rating. AP is important only if you're actually connecting with your target. Pick up that hit rating to at least 150 through gems if you can and add some AP/crit after you hit that cap. It helped me a LOT.
#361SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2
Edited onundefined
Tilley
During Karazhan raid's i seem to be in the top 3 of the DPS at all times against opponents that out gear me by a mile. I am currently testing some DPS theory's in blasted lands on some mobs and i am hoping to pick up the PvP 1 hander before the Arena 1 hander to confirm these theory's.

And a reply to the above post, I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed which was my goal. Also the weapon enchants were for free i was helping someone level up while i get my mongoose. My talent tree is such a mess becouse im still required to heal in gruuls where as i DPS in Karazhan so its kind of a mix and match situation at the moment.

Last edited by Tilley : 07/08/07 at 2:23 PM.
#362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Wandre
try gemming up your hit rating.
You need to read a bit more of the testing presented in this thread regarding this.
#363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
I have read that +8 STR Is the most beneficial gem so when i could i tried adding that to my Armour.
#364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Running a test on some mobs in the outland using a DPS meter addon i discovered i did over a 70 second fight.

Gladiator's Left Ripper
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Fist Weapon
95 - 178 Damage Speed 1.50
(91.0 damage per second)
+21 Stamina
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 9.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15.
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 10.
Equip: Increases attack power by 28.

I sustained 919 DPS over the fight.

and with

Colossal War Axe of Power
Binds when equipped
One-Hand Axe
94 - 176 Damage Speed 2.60
(51.9 damage per second)
+38 Attack Power
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 63

I sustained 929 DPS.

All the variables used were the same each fight finishing in exactly 70 seconds.

Disappointing that i wasted my arena points on this weapon before i considered the mechanics of a shaman.

Also i do not have any solid math on the situation however, I noticed that i did roughly 20-40 more DPS on each fight by using stormstrike whenever the Windfury cool down was up instead of just button mashing it.
#365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2• Aeolian
Just a thought, I would have a discussion with your Raid Leader and officers about your roll in raids. If they are so short on healers that they need to make an Enhancement shaman heal they need to do something about it.

I personally will carry my healing gear around and if they are wiping on something because we are short just a little extra healing I will help out, but I do nothing more then throw an occasional small heal at someone if I see them low most of the time. Using that Hybrid spec, you suck as both a support healer and the support dps roll your suppose to fall into as an Enhancement.

You may be able to put out some great numbers for your own DPS, but not taking Unleashed Rage is just silly, not to mention Shamanistic Rage. Both those talents are pure gold for us, the first one being pure gold for the melee classes in your group.

As for the gems, Inscribed Noble Topaz is decent as well.

Edit: And your an Orc, get some Axes!
#366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.

Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday).
#367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tilley
I was informed by several raiders that its mandatory to have 8,000 health unbuffed
Not really. I have around 7k unbuffed and have no trouble, and there are shaman with less than that who raid just fine. Now as I understand it there are some fights in Black Temple that require everyone in the raid to have 9k health minimum, but looking at your gear right now you don't need to be so worried about that.

Your guild is doing no good by having you split your talents so badly between Resto and Enhance. You'd be better off going full Resto if you aren't picking up Unleashed Rage.
#368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Nemaa
I'm sure the best weapon to use in main hand and offhand is Syphon of the Nathrezim. There was an "Enhancement shaman lootzor" link somewhere to see the best 5 items in each slot.
#369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tilley
Thanks for all the great advice i guess its one of those. I am enhancement or i am not raiding situations.. I will begin warming the bench
#370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps
After looking over all this, there is some really great information here. What I am curious to see is some different ideas from people as to the "perfect" pve gear set up from all available gear. Rank maybe your top 2 items in each slot.

Talking all the way threw BT and HS. I'm sure people have a lot of different ideas and everyone says that you need x amount of hit, crit, ap. But how about compiling it all in a full set, make the gear work to actually achieve those perfect stats. Personally why my goals are is 1900ap, 29%crit and between 180-220 hit. ATM I'm sacrificing hit for strength and crit (also waiting on a decent offhand. Will most likely pick up the MerGlad mace on tuesday).
Here's the top 10 items in each slot.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there.
#371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Here's the top 10 items in each slot.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

I'm amazed of how many people reply to this post without reading the OP, almost all the info is right there.
Never said I didn't read this entire post and I've seen lootzor. Thats a pretty easy answer for what I asked. I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says. Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
#372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Xoya
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps
Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
.. we have .. what's wrong with it?
#373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Morelis
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps
Never said I didn't read this entire post and I've seen lootzor. Thats a pretty easy answer for what I asked. I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says. Sure that program may help a bit, but really take a look at some of that gear.
I don't think lootzor has any hidden agenda, it just scores items based on the stat values you give it. If there's something lacking in the gear that scores well, you need to look at what you were asking for and adjust your criteria accordingly.
#374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tidalclyps
I for one am not going to punch in some numbers into a program and blindly take what it says.
But you'll ask us and blindly take what we say? I'm not sure what the difference is, especially since a lot of guys will simply say "here's the lootzor values I use".
#375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.2Tidalclyps
No, I know what I want. I'm just curious what everyone else's top Items are. I don't see why this is causing an argument/discussion or confusion what I'm asking. Was hoping to start some sort of discussion as to x-item vs x-item and people's reasons for liking one thing over another. We aren't supposed to have all the exact same gear.
#401SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Leachim you are right, I never do things like dps-ing myself to death. Having 2 points in improved reincarnation is more like an opportunity to continue doing a boss if you make an error. I usually don't ankh up to resurrect people faster, only if I'm the last one who can do it. In overall I favorize putting 19 points to resto instead of elemental.

An other question: Do you really think 2% threat reduction to cloak is better than 12 agility? Someone mentioned it's good to have. 12 agility is almost 0.6% crit with kings, I don't think -2% threat matters a lot.
#402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Leachim you are right, I never do things like dps-ing myself to death. Having 2 points in improved reincarnation is more like an opportunity to continue doing a boss if you make an error. I usually don't ankh up to resurrect people faster, only if I'm the last one who can do it. In overall I favorize putting 19 points to resto instead of elemental.

An other question: Do you really think 2% threat reduction to cloak is better than 12 agility? Someone mentioned it's good to have. 12 agility is almost 0.6% crit with kings, I don't think -2% threat matters a lot.
Well, it depends on the fight. If you're extremly threat-limited, then the reduction means at least 1% more dam that you can do, which is better than 0.6% crit. But on the other hand, the reduction is always wasted, when you're not threat-limited, while 12 agi is not.

Sentinel
#403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Leachim
the main goal of an enhancement shaman is to SUPPORT the MAIN-dps - not to be nr 1 in dmg themselves.
While your first statement may be true its just as bad to ignore the fact that you have the potential to put out large amounts of damage. And I've never asked for buffs but after ankhing I normally receive them if its not a strain.

Dieing during an encounter isn't just about epeen. I've become threat capped to the point where even auto attacking is going to yank - forcing me to stop hitting the mob and dropping the Unleashed Rage buff from the group. Your post above makes it sound like we'd be out of the fight for minutes at a time. At most I've been out of the fight for 4-5 seconds and can then go full bore.
#404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Negative
Wolflord, you're not factoring in the hit you can drop due to your extra +3% hit talent. By dropping that extra 3% hit off your gear in favor of crit/str, you'll be increasing your DPS by more than your shocks would.
There is no such thing as hit that I can 'drop'. The correct amount of hit rating to aim for as an enhancement shaman is 'whatever happens to be on the gear'.


Panny: I definitely agree on the +spellhit side of things, if I ever find myself in a situation where the guild lacks primary interrupters then Ill gladly respec to resto. However for now the extent of my interrupt responsibility is 'whatever you want' on Aran, and as such 3% spell hit works out to be nothing more than a 3% increase on the tiny 10% of elemental damage that I do.


Nemaa: I definitely think its worth having a Subtlety enchanted cloak on hand. DPS cloaks are many and numerous, so I think it would be well worth enchanting every second cloak you get with 12agi, the alternate with Subtlety just to have that option.


Malan: I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
#405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Malan
I've become threat capped to the point where even auto attacking is going to yank - forcing me to stop hitting the mob and dropping the Unleashed Rage buff from the group.
Try changing weapons to two grey daggers to keep up unleashed rage but stop doing considerable threat. You can use itemrack or stancesets to bind a key for quick weapon swapping.

Wolflord: I have a Muck-Covered Drape enchanted with -2% threat but I never had the feeling that I should use it.
#406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by Rob
I'm really curious how you guys are managing to do it, since I know that, for example, on Magtheridon I can go all-out without worrying about threat, which means I can shock every CD, which means I need to chug at least 1 mana pot over the course of the fight -- even with 1494 unbuffed AP, 6.3k unbuffed mana. I can only assume that the difference is JoW? (Or are you on a clicking rotation for Magtheridon? That would also do it.)

Just to provide a contrary description of my experience on Void Reaver: I get to stay in through pounding (we brought a ridiculously low number of melee, like two, to our first kill last night) but I am threat-capped from just autoattacking + SS, so mana's not a concern there. (It might be if I had two piece Tier 5, as I would definitely take advantage of the instant-cast LHW on that fight. Even though it would increase my threat, I sometimes have to run out for pounding and/or pop a healthstone when I'm getting scared that I won't get healed.) I think if our 4th tank were better, I would not be quite so threat-capped, he really can't keep up with the first 3.
Dunno if you're still browsing Rob but I would highly suggest you just go balls to the wall on VR pull aggro die and ankh up, you pulling aggro on VR has no raid consequences at all, also tell your healers to keep you up because melee own the VR DPS :]
#407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Try changing weapons to two grey daggers to keep up unleashed rage but stop doing considerable threat. You can use itemrack or stancesets to bind a key for quick weapon swapping.
Keep in mind that I'm occupying what would otherwise be another DPS warrior or Rogue spot in a raid, so while I'm brought along to provide substantial buffs to the group, I'm also brought along because I smash face substantially well with the proper gear. If I threat cap halfway through a fight and then spend 20 seconds hitting with shit items, I'm now putting an increased DPS burden on the rest of the raid. A few seconds of lost buffs from my death seems like a better option than a large period spent with less DPS output because I'm waiting for a good threat lead. As long as it can be done safely there are virtually no repercussions.

Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.

Last edited by Malan : 07/10/07 at 11:09 AM.
#408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
I've never felt the need to use a death as a threat wipe, even on VR. I sustained 742 dps and had to slow down a couple times and forgo shocks, but I didn't feel like a waste of a raid spot because I chose to cut back instead of getting a threat wipe via a death.

Typically, it's the fights with frequent threat wipes (like Hydross) that are the worst for me, and a threat wipe won't help me much there.
#409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
Keep in mind that I'm occupying what would otherwise be another DPS warrior or Rogue spot in a raid, so while I'm brought along to provide substantial buffs to the group, I'm also brought along because I smash face substantially well with the proper gear. If I threat cap halfway through a fight and then spend 20 seconds hitting with shit items, I'm now putting an increased DPS burden on the rest of the raid. A few seconds of lost buffs from my death seems like a better option than a large period spent with less DPS output because I'm waiting for a good threat lead. As long as it can be done safely there are virtually no repercussions.

Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.
What fights do you find you are threat capped to this extent?

Pre 2.1 I could understand this being an issue, but now, surely not.

Originally Posted by panny
Typically, it's the fights with frequent threat wipes (like Hydross) that are the worst for me, and a threat wipe won't help me much there.
Don't you DPS the first add or two before moving back onto the boss?

I've never ripped on Hydross that i remember, infact in the last 2-3 months I don't recall ripping on anything but trash.
#410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Negative
Originally Posted by Wolflord
There is no such thing as hit that I can 'drop'. The correct amount of hit rating to aim for as an enhancement shaman is 'whatever happens to be on the gear'.


Panny: I definitely agree on the +spellhit side of things, if I ever find myself in a situation where the guild lacks primary interrupters then Ill gladly respec to resto. However for now the extent of my interrupt responsibility is 'whatever you want' on Aran, and as such 3% spell hit works out to be nothing more than a 3% increase on the tiny 10% of elemental damage that I do.


Nemaa: I definitely think its worth having a Subtlety enchanted cloak on hand. DPS cloaks are many and numerous, so I think it would be well worth enchanting every second cloak you get with 12agi, the alternate with Subtlety just to have that option.


Malan: I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
So what you're saying is that if my gear has a total of 50 hit rating on it, that that is the correct amount to aim for?

If people nowadays are running around with anywhere from 80-120 hit rating, I would say that's a pretty solid number to go off of. By removing your +3% hit from talents, you'd need to stack more on your gear to get the same +hit% as everyone else, thus lowering your other stats.
#411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Malan
Wolflord - Not sure about something being "canon" just yet. There's still plenty of enhance shaman out there using daggers and other fast off hands, and flametongue on their offhand. See the WWS thread for many, many examples of this. I don't think its a bad thing to reiterate the "obvious" stuff about the spec.

If you just mean there's a different way of wording it, I can certainly change it around some.
Thats exactly what I mean. From the post it sounds like you're saying 'for every 1str/1crit rating you also want 0.7 hit rating' ie that you want to maintain a 'golden ratio' of stats. Whereas in truth we just want every damned point of str/crit we can get our hands on.

ps. Its incredivly obvious how many shaman have yet to be enlightened. Im currently trying to change guilds and its somewhat hard to apply to another guild with the line 'your enhancement shammy is awful'.
#412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wolflord
ps. Its incredivly obvious how many shaman have yet to be enlightened. Im currently trying to change guilds and its somewhat hard to apply to another guild with the line 'your enhancement shammy is awful'.
Enlightened about what?

From all your previous comments it seems to me that you think you know best, and whatever anyone else says is wrong, when looking at your spec, your gear and comments you have alot to learn still.
#413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Pearl
a quick question.

is there a thread with links to usefull addons for shaman's/enh shamans in particular?
if so can some1 plz link it.

thx alot.

P.S.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

is this item order truly the best there is? can this list be trusted or is this some1's opinion.
#414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Enlightened about what?

From all your previous comments it seems to me that you think you know best, and whatever anyone else says is wrong, when looking at your spec, your gear and comments you have alot to learn still.
Very true, which is why I come here to learn. All I mean by enlightened is to have seen the depth of good theorycraft into the enhance shaman spec that goes on here. Generally Im only here to lurk and learn, the only thing thats inspired me to post is that I think Enh/Elem gets looked down upon without any real theorycraft to suggest Enh/Resto is any better.
#415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Acks
I think all mention of the 'golden ratio' of stats should be removed from your original post, it seems pretty much canon that hit rating should never be prioritised over or equal to strength and crit, regardless of gear levels.
Itemization - Gems
The +8 Hit gem is the wrong answer for enhance shaman.
Best bets are to use +8 Strength (never the +16 AP) or +4 Str/+4Crit.
Im a new raiding enh shaman (formerly resto). My stats are as follows: 1300 AP, 108 Hit, 22.5% crit. (EDIT: Here's my armory page. Disregard my World Breaker. I raid with Fool's Bane MH and Runic Hammer OH, both with mongoose on them.

Given my current gear, should I get my +hit to 150 first and then worry about AP? Should I get my AP to 1500 and then worry about hit? In my meager mind, it would seem that adding +56 hit (7 +hit gems) would increase my dps more so than 112 AP (7 AP gems).

The lion's share of conversation about stat valuation in this thread pertains to an already well geared Shaman (2200 AP, 25% crit). My question is, which stat first for those of us still in Karazhan epics? And specifically, which for PvE boss fights.. I just finished putting all +8 hit gems in my slots to get my hit rating up to a whopping 168 rating. Then I read the 2nd quote above and banged my head on my keyboard.

So 150 +hit is the benchmark Enh shaman should shoot for, but putting +hit gems in my gear sockets is a waste? Im having to resort to leather gear just to get my hit rating over 100, let alone 150-190.

Here are the 2 scenarios for my current stats:

A. All +hit gems in sockets
1238 AP
164 +Hit
23% Crit

B. All +8 str gems in sockets
1350 AP
108 +Hit
23% Crit

As an aside, this is my first post, so please forgive me if i've done something wrong
#416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Pearl
a quick question.

is there a thread with links to usefull addons for shaman's/enh shamans in particular?
if so can some1 plz link it.

thx alot.

P.S.
http://www.lootzor.com/index.php?c=7...u1hedu.7heeu.5

is this item order truly the best there is? can this list be trusted or is this some1's opinion.
This weighting is on the currently tested maximum contribution for each stat. Lootzor doesn't do haste rating, so you'll need to consider that as well. HasteR is pretty subjective based on your other gear, since you don't want too much haste, especially if you have a dragonspine or BS mace; ideally you don't want to drop your hasted speed below 1.50. For weapons it doesn't take speed into account, so always shoot for the slowest possible weapons you can get for each hand. These values don't consider set bonuses or sta/int, so you'll need to choose for yourself.
#417SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The gem choices are simply that choices, Crit, ap, hit, all have different values to different people. My preference at the moment is crit/ap, but my gear is pretty balanced for all 3 main stats.

The patchy dps of a shaman can never be consistent, some times my dps will be at 900 and others it will be at 1100 without changing a single piece of gear, the randomness of WF and which hand it procs on is always going to make it inconsistent.

@Acks, go with what you feel is best, the difference between the two choice will be marginal.
#418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Don't you DPS the first add or two before moving back onto the boss?

I've never ripped on Hydross that i remember, infact in the last 2-3 months I don't recall ripping on anything but trash.
We've tried a variety of ways, what worked for us was to Seed of Corruption Hydross and keep single target dps on him. Because the Shadow Priests would stay on Hydross anyway and he'd be fully debuffed already, DPS on hydross was higher than it'd be on an add meaning SoC would go off faster. When we tried focusing an add first, I'd get pull aggro on them anyway, so either way, I'd have to hold back.
#419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;
#420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
#421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;

Do you use KTM on Void Reaver or Omen? I haven't given Omen a shot yet but last night against Void Reaver I was #1 on KTM from about 40% -> 0% and I was waiting for him to hit me and kill me just so I could ankh, but it never happened. I've just stopped worrying about agro on Void Reaver as KTM is never right, heh.
#422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've used both Omen and KTM, neither are anywhere near being accurate on that fight.

Stigmata - there may be others, I've only just started getting into deep SSC with my new guild and we're starting on the rest of TK soon so we'll see how that goes. Those are just 2 fights in recent memory that I know for sure I am capable of ripping aggro pretty early in the fight, I'm sure there are others that I could do the same if I used a few more consumables (heroic/haste pots, drums).
#423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Yes, Void Reaver and Morogrim are encounters where threat for shamans is indeed an issue. And yes its always good to try to maximise your dps. But again I say encounters like that arent about dps, thats why blizzard made them so agro-sensitive. Furthermore, if were talking about morogrim and voidwalker were talking about 2 very easy encounters who dont require much effort at all (hes called Loot Reaver for a reason)... Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
Id be curious what the difference in your damageoutput is between a Morogrim kill where you suicide-ankh and one where you go fullout but keep your agro always just below that of the mt (getting watertombed is a great way of agro-reduction anyways). Is it realy worth the hassle?

I just get the feeling that some of the posts here claim that suicide-ankhing should be considered a 'standard procedure' for enhancement-dps, where imo its only suitable for a very limited number of encounters and even then it can hardly be labled as required.
#424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
I was pretty seriously threat capped on both Essence of Desire and Essence of Anger. When you put out a single WF crit of 5410 on Anger, it's pretty easy to see how. Likewise in Hyjal there are a lot of low armor bosses, Winterchill, Anetheron, Kazrogal and Archimonde are killer melee fights. I've had aggro issues on Anetheron, and I'd have issues on Archimonde except for the luck I've had with having to avoid shitty melee doomfires and air bursts at the same time as fear keeping me out of range of my tremor. The next cloak I get is getting subtelty, and I'm praying for a Prism of Inner Calm to drop.
#425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Erongg
Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on swapping WF/GOA or WF/Tranq (on threat limited fights). In principle it sounds great - how does it work in practice? Does anyone do it consistently in pretty much every fight? How do you manage your global cooldowns? How does it affect your own DPS? How annoying is it to keep up, and do you use any macros to help?

The upside to totem swapping is pretty great, so I'm curious about people's experiences with it.
#426SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Its discussed on page 14 of this thread.
#427SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
On a fight like Void Reaver you definitely do not want to be holding back a lot. This is something we learned back when we were working on Broodlord Lashlayer. Being more careful with your threat and thus killing the mob slower will just ensure that someone pulls aggro and dies, probably mutiple someone's.

Knock Away effects like VR's are percentage based, so the higher your tanks threat is, the more threat he loses each time he gets hit by Knock Away. What this means is eventually the threat of your tanks will plateau, and if the mob is still alive at this point you are about to have a bunch of people overaggro and die. The best way to not overaggro on VR is to kick the shit out of him before this happens.

Normally on Void Reaver I go all out, including haste pots etc, sustaining 1000+ dps for the duration of the fight. Sometimes I'll pull aggro around 10%, but I am certain this wouldn't happen if other people were doing slightly more damage instead of worrying about aggro, because if I can go all out for 90% of the fight without overaggroing, every other class can go all out the entire time.
#428SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
For void reaver, are people putting an enh shaman into the MT group for WF/UR? Our tank group usually has 3 warriors in it, and I'm thinking it might be more worthwhile for the tanks to get WF given that threat is all wacky. Another thing about VR I haven't had a chance to test yet, are tauren at the edge of melee range counted as melee threat or ranged threat? I routinely sit outside pounding but inside melee range.
#429SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Melee are good on VR so you want your enhancement shaman with the melee group. However, you definitely want to put a resto shaman in the tank group because Windfury is especially good against mobs that require multiple tanks.

Normally the MT doesn't benefit a whole lot from Windfury Totem because they will have a lot of rage(in some cases infinite rage) just from being hit by the mob. On VR you're going to have a couple of tanks that aren't currently being attacked, so the extra rage from Windfury is much more noticable to them.

As far as I know Tauren at max melee range are still considered in melee range. Also, be careful with outranging the Pounding, because he can target you with an Arcane Orb there.
#430SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
A question about hit rating:

So according to the formula, 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR. Does that always apply, or does that only apply if your % hit chance is at a high level?

The reason I ask is, I used a lot of Glinting Noble Topaz in my gear to get my hit rating up to the 204 it is now. The formula noted for those calculations was with a 22% hit chance, and I'm at that right now (9% from talents, ~13% from hit rating, so roughly 22% hit). Should I instead go back and socket with +8 STR or +4 CR/+4 STR?

I was always under the impression that I should focus on hit rating UNTIL I got to 200+ hit rating, but this seems to suggest that's incorrect.
#431SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
#432SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
That's just mind-boggling. It seems that since you get 1% hit increase from only 16 points of hit rating (thus more chances to proc WF) vs. 1% crit increase from 22 points of crit rating, that hit rating would indeed make a bigger difference until you got to the cap. Apparently I was wrong.

Also, I'm assuming Agility would be valued simply at 25/22 on that scale, correct? So:

1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.13 AGI = 1.43 HR

Is that right?

Last edited by Ilmater : 07/10/07 at 3:57 PM.
#433SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Originally Posted by Stigmata
25.5% is the hit cap against level 73 mobs.

As for what amount of hit to use, I'm still at 190ish + 9% from talents, others use way less, I'm comfortable with my present amount, and although I am tempted to drop more, I can't convince myself to do so...yet.
I'm about the same as Stigmata, running 200 with my current boots, waiting to get Rapscallion enchanted before switching to them which will drop me to 183 Hit. I just can't seem to force myself any lower then 180 and feel good about it.
#434SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Aeolian
I'm about the same as Stigmata, running 200 with my current boots, waiting to get Rapscallion enchanted before switching to them which will drop me to 183 Hit. I just can't seem to force myself any lower then 180 and feel good about it.
Stig also runs with tsunami/dragonstrike, so hit would be pretty important for procs as well no?
#435SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
- 5 minutes = 300 Seconds
- 2 second swing = 150 swings * 2 = 300 (assuming 2.6 second weapons but sped up a bit to around 2 on average for various reasons - to go more detailed would require a proper simulation)
- Average value of a swing = 350 hit/800 crit -> 2 hits per crit ~ 1500/3 swings
- 3% of 300 swings is 9 swings -> 4500 white damage -> almost 2 solid chances at a WF -> assume 2 crit 2 non crit on - average of 600 and 1200 = 3600 (this is high end assuming high chance of crit and 2 windfurys)

3% hit over 300 swings (150 per hand) =~ 8100 with VERY favorable conditions.

Earth Shock:

(From looking at a couple parses with my stats)
- 850 average non crit shock, 1000 on crit (these weighted slightly lower then average)
- 5% less damage would be 808 and 950? (I'm not sure how the 5% multiplier works on crits)

- 300 seconds untalented = 50 shocks
- 5% of 50 for crit is 2.5 -> assume 3
- 47 shocks, 3 crit untalented
- 83% base spell hit +3% from resto on a 73 mob -> 43 shocks
- Assume all 3 of our crit shocks crit.
- 40 shocks, 3 crit untalented with hit chance calculated

- 300 seconds talented = 60 shocks
- 5% of 60 for crit is 3
- 57 shocks, 3 crit talented
- 83% base spell hit on 73 -> 49.8 shocks
- 46 shocks, 3 crit talented

- Damage difference is 40*(850-808)+3*(1000-950)+6*850 = 6930


Now, this is assuming a 5 minute uninterrupted period under optimimum conditions.

- 300 white swings across both hands assuming optimimum windfury procs in the difference period.
- 50-60 Shocks by using every cooldown.

So optimum here is at about:
-- 60 swings/minute
-- 12 shocks/minute (5s), 10 shocks/minute (6s)


So here's the interesting part -

The closest high dps uptime fight I can think of off the top of my head is probably Morogrim or Void Reaver, so I grabbed the top EJ parses and took Shabadu as an example:

Morogrim: 342s presence (5.7m)
- 262 white swings (45.96 swings/min)
- 22 shocks (3.86 shocks/min)

Void Reaver: 298s presence (4.97m)
- 203 white swings (40.85 swings/min)
- 29 shocks (5.84 shocks/min)


This tells us that cooldown isn't necessarily an issue as much as either threat or other such conditions. Or it's just really hard to maintain a full shock uptime. My own numbers for fights aren't nearly as good on uptime as Shabadu's are, so I need to work on that, or wait till my tanks build aggro a bit faster.

I'm still thinking this needs more analysis, as the amount of extra damage from the shocks, along with the faster cooldown when you have limited dps windows can make a significant difference I imagine. Also, there are at least a couple fights where I'm on interrupt duty and it's made a noticeable difference.

Anyway I have some work to do, so if someone wants to tear this stuff apart a bit more (as msot of these numbers are pulled out of my nether regions), please do. This topic needs more discussion then off the cuff "resto is better because +hit", that's the same path people went down when we first got DW for gear in general. My main view right now is elemental hybrid is better up to a certain gear point, and then the 3% hit will win out from a dps standpoint over extended fights due to AP difference. Where that breakpoint is is the question. Elemental is a flat 140+ dps if used consistantly, but will never scale upwards with enh gear.
#436SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I run at around 120 hit and I know Sebudai does as well, he's posting impressive numbers on his guilds WWS parses that I've seen, and I'm certainly no slouch in my guild even with much less impressive gear.
#437SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Ilmater
That's just mind-boggling. It seems that since you get 1% hit increase from only 16 points of hit rating (thus more chances to proc WF) vs. 1% crit increase from 22 points of crit rating, that hit rating would indeed make a bigger difference until you got to the cap. Apparently I was wrong.

Also, I'm assuming Agility would be valued simply at 25/22 on that scale, correct? So:

1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.13 AGI = 1.43 HR

Is that right?
Every point in hit is wasted on your yellow damage (assuming you have a sane talent build).

Every point in hit is not going to proc windfury more when you're already inside the 3 second cooldown from the last windfury.

It's not as mindboggling as you think. Granted, there are other factors such as weapon procs and shamanistic rage procs which make hit more important that sims/calculations show. The thrust of the theory-born results *seem* to be correct, however, as people have reported good results by re-socketting from +hit gems to +ap/+str gems.

As far as the formula you quoted, if it is truly intended to be an equivalency formula (and it looks that way), then sure, 25/22. I'd probably edit it to assume you having kings, however, making it more like:

1 CR = .9 STR = 2 AP = 1.02AGI = 1.43HR

Again, assuming that was an equivalency formula.
#438SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Fathom Lords parse from last week after fully dropping as much +hit as possible, mainly my Romeo's Vial, and then swapping out a few sockets to Crit Rate/Strength.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=3961-4367&m
First time I've posted numbers that high, especially in a multi-mob fight.
#439SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
I run with an abnormally high hit, simply because of the gear wow has shown fit to have drop for me. I could easily get rid of 16 hit, since I still have 2 dawnstones gemmed, but I'm trying to repay the costs of my epic mount so I haven't had the cash to regem them. I'll lose more hit once I break 3 piece ebon netherscale as well, which I see coming as soon as I get one better in either of the slots since I can craft BT/Hyjal mail in those slots.

Shocking for me is pretty involved. I have to make sure not to eat Stormstrike charges so that the ele shamans we run with get the maximum benefit. Sometimes cooldowns sync up and you have to wait an extra second on a shock or stormstrike and that further messes with the rotation. I tend to give up Earthshocking entirely when I feel close on threat or am running low on mana waiting on SR.
#440SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
Fathom Lords parse from last week after fully dropping as much +hit as possible, mainly my Romeo's Vial, and then swapping out a few sockets to Crit Rate/Strength.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=3961-4367&m
First time I've posted numbers that high, especially in a multi-mob fight.
do you have any other WWS's from a Fathom Lord fight before changing up your gear?
#441SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
Fathom Lords parse from last week after fully dropping as much +hit as possible, mainly my Romeo's Vial, and then swapping out a few sockets to Crit Rate/Strength.

http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report...&s=3961-4367&m
First time I've posted numbers that high, especially in a multi-mob fight.
14.5 % of your white attacks missed, assuming you had the same hit% as me (21.56%) then you would have only missed 4ish %, this would add up to an extra 19k white damage and a 4% more total dmg.

The difference in my gear would probably be even more, give that more of my damage comes from white hits.

I'm probably missing something here.
#442SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Originally Posted by Disquette
do you have any other WWS's from a Fathom Lord fight before changing up your gear?
Sadly no that's the first time I'd done the fight.
Edit - closest thing I can do is a mag fight from a couple weeks prior. Problem is that I believe this was from before I got my Arena2 weapon as well.
http://www.warbound.us/WWS/wws-20070605-2010/index.html

For those who are still wondering what sort of gains Windfury gives a warrior, the previous kill that Beatdown Brigade did was a week prior to my joining the guild. With no Windfury totem on the previous week he did around 850 DPS. This week's kill with me in the group he did 1250 DPS for a gain of 400 DPS from totems, bloodlust, and Unleashed Rage.

Last edited by Malan : 07/10/07 at 5:52 PM.
#443SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Stigmata
14.5 % of your white attacks missed, assuming you had the same hit% as me (21.56%) then you would have only missed 4ish %, this would add up to an extra 19k white damage and a 4% more total dmg.

The difference in my gear would probably be even more, give that more of my damage comes from white hits.

I'm probably missing something here.
Yes, you are missing something here ;-)

Drill down into the melee section by clicking on it, and you'll see:
Misses (includes dodges/parries):
Misses 25 / 7%
Dodges 5 / 1%
Parries 15 / 4%

(rounding each to the whole number makes these not add up to 14.5%)

WWS misses does not = actual white misses. It's only about half as bad as it seems. His miss rate is only 3% worse than yours.
#444SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
And Stigmata has exactly 70 more hit rating than I currently do.
#445SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Ah of course. so ~5% less hit only equates to ~2% less total dmg in this sample?
#446SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Okay, i keep learning stuff by reading this, and the common said thing about needing 250 hit seems like not true at all.

My current char is like this, http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...nedar&n=Mextro

I'm still wondering what i need to improve, if i did make the right choise with the offhand (untill we can finally down al'ar and he drops netherbane, i think i'm pretty much stuck with this one since arena isn't exactly my favorite place to be)

I'm mostly build to improve my group's dps, but offcourse i need to have a high dps myself on fights that have a low enrage timer.

Any tips/suggestions?
#447SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
@Mextro, There isn't alot to be said really, just keep upgrading your gear, the belt and second ring are the worst items you have, so set those as a priority.

I recently dropped herbalism and took leatherworking, it cost me close to 2k gold but i eventually got it to 375 and crafted some of the BT/SSC items, if you can get hold of the plans (assuming guilds on your server are in there) that might be worth doing.

The items aren't cheap to make considering the price of the plans and a couple of the rarer parts, but will be nice upgrades.
#448SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ayb
How many of you guys that run with elemental shamans in your raid that let them eat up both stormstrike debuffs? Anytime we have one I don't bother shocking as I figure giving him a 15% boost is going to do a lot more than me ESing every cooldown.
#449SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
I normally try to do SS->Flame shock->Earth Shock. By the time you get to ES, they've eaten up your SS charges.
#450SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Can anyone recommend a good combat log tracker to track my hits, misses, dodges, parries, windfuries etc?

Thought it might be a good time to do it tonight since i'm doing an SSc clear tonight... cheers
#451SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Recount is a good one.


Recount - A Graphical Damage Meter/Raid Analysis Tool
#452SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Unaz
I normally try to do SS->Flame shock->Earth Shock. By the time you get to ES, they've eaten up your SS charges.
Same
#453SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
thanks heaps Ruzia just briefly tested it then and it's awesome can't wait to test it in the raid tonight
#454SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3songah
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
#455SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Acks
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.

I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
#456SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rob
Originally Posted by songah
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
Uhh, I don't think that the proc will be enough to balance out the fact that that axe does less DPS than a one-hander... but I don't have definitive math to prove that. You'd need to figure out the PPM on it. But if white damage is about 50% of your DPS, losing your OH means you're giving up at least 1/3 * 50% = 16.7% of damage, plus damage lost from keeping up UR for you and your group, plus the fact that this is only 2/3 of the DPS of a good MH, plus the fact this has 0 AP/crit/hit on it... I just can't see it working.
Originally Posted by Acks
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.

I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
Dear lord, try actually carefully reading the first page and/or previous two pages of the thread...

Last edited by Rob : 07/10/07 at 10:23 PM.
#457SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
So, finally got the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision, and while the energy surge (110 mana gain on lhw or lb) seems to be actually going off at 10% the power surge (ap bonus on ss) is well, definately not 50%.

Unfortunately eu servers just came down so I haven't had time to do more testing but from what I have so far of 210 stormstrikes which landed (so ignoring dodge/parry) 168 caused a power surge. This seems within acceptable distance for each weapon having a 50% chance to proc on ss, but I didn't have time to see if single wielding would result in much nearer 50% total procs or not.

As it is it seems including dodges (but not parries, lets hit the raid mobs from behind) the total uptime for the power surge will be ~75% and the trinket will be worth (275*0.75) 206 static AP, far higher than the expected of ~138AP.

I would love to see more data from anyone else who has this trinket, and will check to see if it is 50% with only 1 weapon equipped once servers are up tomorrow.
#458SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Acks
But at what +hit rating should one do this? I read someone saying the run with 120 hit, some with 190, some with 250. I suppose im just looking for a minimum amount of +hit that a raider should have before focusing on other stats.

I understand that its a toss up to some degree, but surely there's a line where you are missing so much that your WF isn't proccing enough, right? or where your +hit is so low that you hit your Crit cap?
I don't think we know a definitive answer to this. Well, other than that which either Stigmata or Sebudai offered earlier (I'm sorry I forget which, and I'm not finding it with the search function) - get gear that are upgrades. They'll often come with hit. If it's not that big an upgrade that you can tell if it is or not, it's probably best to let a guildy get the item for whom it would be a clear upgrade.

Or something along those lines.
#459SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
I can't seem to decide between abacus and hourglass. Currently I sit around 24.5% crit, 1520 ap, and 19.5% hit with abacus on =\. (trying not to derail your current topic, but you are talking trinkets!)
#460SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by songah
My guild officers just suggested that our two enhance shamans should use nightfall for the casters. Would the dps that I lose from using nightfall in single target fights be worth the nightfall proc? I have pretty decent enhancement gear with around 200 hitrating which will be wasted wielding a 2hander.
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.

The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
#461SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
That seems like a fairly well reasoned post Shalas. If the wielder has crit gear s/he could sub in for the hit gear he's currently using, it might not be a horrible idea.
#462SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Shalas
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.

The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
I may have missed it, but aren't you assuming the average caster's DPS is equal to the enhancement Shaman's DPS? Your calculations should take the relative dps differences into account instead of using pure percentages.

Also, I'm not sure if the figure of 25% dps loss for the shaman is accurate. When I've tried 2h DPS (with a level 70 epic), my damage seemed to drop more than that. However, that might be due to the fact I had to leave a larger threat buffer between me and the tank.
#463SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Originally Posted by Stigmata
@Mextro, There isn't alot to be said really, just keep upgrading your gear, the belt and second ring are the worst items you have, so set those as a priority.

I recently dropped herbalism and took leatherworking, it cost me close to 2k gold but i eventually got it to 375 and crafted some of the BT/SSC items, if you can get hold of the plans (assuming guilds on your server are in there) that might be worth doing.

The items aren't cheap to make considering the price of the plans and a couple of the rarer parts, but will be nice upgrades.
Yeah i know about the belt and ring, problem is prowler belt and garona never drops. Also, which shoulders should i go for, bladed shoulderpads of merciless, or the t4 ones? I already have 2 parts, but when i got the gloves i really needed to fix alot of my gems because i lost my meta bonus and 1% crit.
#464SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Hi guys,

ever since BC came out I compared all leather and mail items by (re-)calculating their base stats by hand. So here's just a quick question to see if I'm right or wrong.

Afaik 25agility = 22critrating = 1%crit. Since 22critrating equals 25agility doesn't that mean 1critrating equals 1.136agility and therefore making gems with critrating superior to gems with only str on them? For example, the 4critrating/4str gem actually translates into 4.5agi/4str making it better then the 8str gem used in many examples here?

Thanks in advance
#465SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
You have it a bit backwards. 1.136 agi = 1 CR, therefore a gem that gives you 4 crit rating would have to have 4.5 agi on it in order to be the same amount of crit% as a 4 crit rating gem.
#466SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kissmyaxe
Well if you use: 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating and take into consideration BoK then 1 STR=1.1 STR > 1 CR, else they are equal.
#467SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shalas
WF + Autoattack + Stormstrike is about 90% of a Enh Shaman's damage. By ditching the OH, you lose about 25-30% of that (down one third, but autoattack effectivly gains 5-10% hit and WF procs stop being eaten by the OH). In addition, your weapon is 20-30 DPS lower than it would otherwise be. As an asspull guess, I don't see a damage loss of 25% as unreasonable. If you have ten casters, each one needs to do 2-3% more damage from Nightfall to break even, which requires 20% uptime. WoWHead comments say it's about a 12% proc rate. With 80% Flurry uptime (and assuming WF/SS can proc it), you'd get about 30% uptime -- 50% higher than needed to break even with my rough guess of damage loss (or break even with only 7 casters, which is far more realistic). In addition, you'd be moving damage away from a character with significant aggro issues to ones that have fewer problems, and making the shadow priests return more mana. The second shaman would only add about 20% uptime though, so both using it at the same time probably isn't worth it.

The UR issues means it probably isn't worth messing around with, but the proc really is ridiculous enough that Nightfall isn't an entirely terrible idea.
The main reason for me to raid as enhancement is to bring respectable damage and more importantly buff my group with totems and UR, UR being the cherry on the cake.

Using a 2 hander I doubt UR would be up even 75% of the time on my group, my damage would undoubtably drop by way more than 25-30%.

Using the Kaelthas 2 hander my dps is around 550-600, DW on the same fight my dps is 1000-1200 depending on debuffs.

The Kaelthas 2 hander is more than double the dps and 3 times the top end damage, how any guild or player would think this can be viable is beyond me.
#468SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Disquette
You have it a bit backwards. 1.136 agi = 1 CR, therefore a gem that gives you 4 crit rating would have to have 4.5 agi on it in order to be the same amount of crit% as a 4 crit rating gem.
That sounds like I'm correct?! ;)

Originally Posted by Kissmyaxe
Well if you use: 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating and take into consideration BoK then 1 STR=1.1 STR > 1 CR, else they are equal.
Afaik CR gets buffed from BoK just like Str gets buffed making it better again. At least I read that in the Euro Forums.
#469SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Beroll
Afaik CR gets buffed from BoK just like Str gets buffed making it better again. At least I read that in the Euro Forums.
I don't think that is correct.
#470SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kissmyaxe
Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, Spirit are the only stats affected by BoK.
All the other stats like AP, any rating, health bonuses, etc are not affected.
#471SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
I'm sure that none of the ratings get buffed by Kings. You have a link to the thread on the Euro forums?
#472SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mindrila
So is BoK the only reason why Str > AP or am I missing something?
I'm leveling my shaman atm but its better to know how to equip him right before I'm actually gathering equip.
#473SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Aeolian
I'm sure that none of the ratings get buffed by Kings. You have a link to the thread on the Euro forums?
WoW Forums -> Mongoose or 20 strength?
I remembered wrong.
The thread doesn't say that CR gets buffed by BoK. It says that CR is always better then STR or AGI, even with BoK. That's only logical after thinking about it. 1 AGI/STR with BoK = 1.1 AGI/STR. 1 CR = 1.136 AGI. So CR always wins, especially when there's no Paladin around.
#474SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Kissmyaxe
Originally Posted by Mindrila
So is BoK the only reason why Str > AP or am I missing something?
I'm leveling my shaman atm but its better to know how to equip him right before I'm actually gathering equip.
1 Str gives 2 AP and some block value. But obviously block value is useless as for an enhancement shaman.
If you don't take BoK into account 1 Str = 2 AP.
But if you ever have a choice, like gems for example, I see no reason whatsoever to take AP over Str.

To Beroll:
I don't see the point of your argument. Noone is debating that CR is better than Agility point per point. But if you add Strength into the equation, that is a whole other discussion that has no "right" answer. As debated many times, CR vs Str is relative to your current stats. If you want to compare them, get a set of stats and work from there. But ofcourse that's what the various enhancement shaman threads have been discussing...

Edit: Added in the quote and reply to Beroll.

Last edited by Kissmyaxe : 07/11/07 at 7:22 AM.
#475SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3caladein
Yes, if you don't have BoK: 1 Str = 2 AP and they're perfectly interchangeable.
#476SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ caladein
Yes, if you don't have BoK: 1 Str = 2 AP and they're perfectly interchangeable.
#477SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Originally Posted by Mextro
Yeah i know about the belt and ring, problem is prowler belt and garona never drops. Also, which shoulders should i go for, bladed shoulderpads of merciless, or the t4 ones? I already have 2 parts, but when i got the gloves i really needed to fix alot of my gems because i lost my meta bonus and 1% crit.
Still wondering about this, also, was my offhand a good choise till netherbane (no i dont wan't/can't get gladiator axe)
#478SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Magna_FA
To those that keep asking, "what's a good hit rating to be at?", "what's a good crit rating to be at?" etc. I ran some simulations using the java sim posted in the op using a batch file to check for trends at the extremes. Basically, I ran it going from 9%hit to 25% hit at various attack power levels (one at my unbuffed attack power, one at my raid buffed attack power, and one at an absurdly high attack power just for giggles.) I did the same with crit, from 1% to 50%. Of course, I would add or subtract equivalent "pater" attack power per his formula, so that the total point values were always equal.

Here is what I found, at unbuffed attack power, from 9% to 20% hit, it was fairly flat, but after that, from 20% to 25%, I saw a steady drop in dps, for a total of 6dps drop. But then at raid buffed attack power, it was flat all the way across. But then as you add attack power, more the more %hit you have, the more gain in dps you get as you go up, which makes sense, since if you have more attack power, the more you hit, the more you multiply the damage. But you would need an unobtainable attack power level to see a noticeable difference in dps. But the point is, it doesn't matter how much %hit you have, as long as you replace it with equivalent attack power or crit in a raiding situation. You could have 9% with a lot of attack power, or 25% with less attack power, it doesn't matter. The end result is the same.

As for the crit sim, there was a noticeable curve, but I'd say it's fairly flat where it counts. At lower attack power levels, the optimum point to be is lower than at higher attack power levels. Once you go past that optimum point, you actually start to loose dps, but again, I'm not talking huge amounts here. Unbuffed, the optimum point seemed to be at 20% and when you dropped below about 12% is when you really saw a noticeable drop in dps (most likely due to not being able to keep UR and flurry up any respectable amount) Then when raid buffed, that "optimum" point moved up to about 25% with starting to see a sharp drop off below 17% and at the top end around 35%. And of course the higher attack power you start with, the more crit you need to be at the "optimum" point to where if you had 5k attack power, you would see a steady increase in dps all the way to 50% crit.

In general, what does this mean to you? Well, just stick to the formula with the gear available. You'll wind up with plenty of +hit, +crit, and attack power to up your dps. Any noticeable upgrades as per that formula is going to net you a gain, even if it drops you to seemingly low crit or hit levels or even high crit or hit levels but lower attack power. In general there is no real perfect place to be, just as long as the total number of points go up and you don't go to absurd extremes with crit.

Personally, I like to see about 20% hit, 25-30% crit, and as much attack power as I can get. I hate seeing when I pop SR a few misses knowing those could have been 450 mana procs, but at the same time, there is no need to hit the cap either. As for crit, I like to see that it never goes down and flurry is up as much as possible. I don't like to see my character swinging without flurry, that's just painful to watch. Also, if you have items like the hourglass, which procs off crits, you want your crit rating as high as possible to get the most out of that proc. So yes, there is more to it than the sims, but in general, stick to the formula, and you most likely can't go wrong.
#479SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
It has been said that 8 str is the best gem to go for, but I haven't seen the +20 AP gem being taken into consideration.... Wouldn't that gem be better?

[Bold Ornate Ruby]
Bought with almost 7k honor. So thats like 1 day of AV.
#480SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Capital
It has been said that 8 str is the best gem to go for, but I haven't seen the +20 AP gem being taken into consideration.... Wouldn't that gem be better?

[Bold Ornate Ruby]
Bought with almost 7k honor. So thats like 1 day of AV.
Yes but it is unique-equipped.
#481SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3calem
how much haste is too much haste?

I've read here that at some point, too much sustained haste lowers dps for us. I'm wondering what point that is? Getting ready to go weaponsmith and was gonna make drakefist, but the rogues in my guild have told me i'm probably next for the dragonspine trophy off gruul. would those 2, with mongoose and flurry be too much haste? and would it be considered sustained? if so, then should i go axesmith and make the planar axe thing.

thanks for any advice.
#482SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Regarding Nightfall, if I remember correctly it procs less post-70. There was some discussion on it a while ago where over the course of a whole Gruul fight people were able to get it to proc maybe once.

Nightfall was my introduction to enhancement, the guild made me the Nightfall bitch on C'Thun and it was awesome.

Also, memories.
#483SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Guys, most of the information that everyone is asking for is on the first post of this thread. I'm keeping it updated for a reason. Not to mention that a lot of people are asking the same questions that were answered 1-2 pages back.

And even if your question is not explicitly answered in the first post, a lot of information can be reasonably inferred from that post if you stop for a moment and think about it.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#484SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
To be fair, little mention of how Haste rating affects our DPS is made in the OP. I remember there being a statistical valley between 45-55% haste, but not for which weapon speeds. A good rule to follow is to try to not get your MH/OH under 1.5, since then you'll cut down on WF procs.
#485SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by calem
I've read here that at some point, too much sustained haste lowers dps for us. I'm wondering what point that is? Getting ready to go weaponsmith and was gonna make drakefist, but the rogues in my guild have told me i'm probably next for the dragonspine trophy off gruul. would those 2, with mongoose and flurry be too much haste? and would it be considered sustained? if so, then should i go axesmith and make the planar axe thing.

thanks for any advice.
Oh no! In the event that they're all active, yes, you'll be under the 1.5 windfury cap with your main hand (approximately 1.35 speed at that point). What's worse, is that if they're all proc'd, and you're also using Bloodlust, you'll be just under the 1.0 speed cap too - Three wasted MH attacks! (about .96 speed)

Enough "the sky is falling." The real question is do you want to plan your gear choices around combat that makes up approximately 90% * 33% * 33% ~ 10% of your time? Or gear choices for the other 90%?

(note assumptions - 90% = flurry uptime, 33% = dragonmaw haste uptime, 33% = dragonspine up time. The mongoose procs don't make any difference for this set up when it comes to falling under or over the 1.5speed barrier.)

I sense a falling sky.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#486SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by calem
I've read here that at some point, too much sustained haste lowers dps for us. I'm wondering what point that is?
Originally Posted by Shabadu
To be fair, little mention of how Haste rating affects our DPS is made in the OP
Au contraire. From the OP -
New modeling appears to indicate that when your weapon is hasted between 1.50 and 1.41 speed you will actually experience a sharp decrease in DPS.
http://elitistjerks.com/398309-post78.html
It may be hard in practice to actually achieve those speeds for long periods of time though.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#487SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Perfect, I was looking for its own entry, and completely glanced over it having read it so many times looking for stat comparisons, etc.
#488SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah I'm still trying to make certain areas stand out a bit more. I figured having emphasis on certain things like "USE A SLOW OFF HAND" and "DROP WINDFURY FOR WARRIORS" was more important though.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#489SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3calem
i had checked the first page yesterdy but didn't see anything more than "too much haste lowers dps", but i did not check it before my post, so my apologies on that. my question wasn't as dire as you make it seem with "the sky is falling". it's a good bit of time/money going one path of the weaponsmith, so if 2 sources of haste proc would be ineffecient, the dps increase with the axe's ap/crit would be of greater benefit than a redundant haste proc. but you did answer my question in that everything proc'ing at the same time would be too much but would be a minimum amount of time, so thank you. was an honest question in trying to direct my focus in the optimum direction.

i'll be sure to check the first page before posting again.
#490SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
From most of the armory profiles I've seen of enhancement shaman, they usually use bloodlust brooch and the hourglass. So while dragonmaw/abacus/flurry/mongoose might put you in a situation where you have too much haste, you'll probably replace the abacus with the brooch.

But then again, you might replace that with a DS trophy... =) Personally, I'll be going dragonmaw anyway even with the chance that excessive haste lowers my dps slightly. I just think it would be fun to be attacking that fast!
#491SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
To clarify, that post was not directed at Calem specifically and its not meant to be nasty. We've just had a LOT of people asking questions that are on the first page of the thread or even just 1-2 pages back.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#492SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mextro
Also, which shoulders should i go for, bladed shoulderpads of merciless, or the t4 ones? I already have 2 parts, but when i got the gloves i really needed to fix alot of my gems because i lost my meta bonus and 1% crit.

Still wondering about this, also, was my offhand a good choise till netherbane (no i dont wan't/can't get gladiator axe)
Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless are better for pure DPS than T4, but the helm and shoulders are the two strongest pieces of T4, so I would take those for your 2-piece set bonus and replace the gloves/legs/chest with something else. (Chest, off Magtheridon, comes in 3rd and is fairly decent, but the leather chest off Nightbane is equivalent and the Ranger-General's Chestguard off Hydross and the Bloodsea Brigand's Vest off Karadthress are superior.) Basically, the answer to your question about gear depends on what's available to you.

As for offhand, what you're using is good, in fact absolutely the best you have access to, but you are really unnecessarily gimping yourself by refusing to go for the Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver/Pummeler. Get a 2v2 or 5v5 group and lose 10 games a week, you'll still get enough points to get that axe or mace before you can get anything better in the OH.
#493SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
I have the +3 melee dmg meta gem in my T4. How does that equate in terms of AEPs? The Maulgar's War Helm has a higher AEP because I dont use the +24 ap one.
#494SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Thoricatha
First off, apologies for cross-posting. I posted this in the "Modeling Darkmoon Card: Wrath" thread, but I think this thread might actually be more fitting (and it seems like the cool hangout for Shaman theory). I've read through this whole thread, great info here, but I haven't seen anything on this trinket. Here are my questions:

I am an enhancement shaman and I am strongly considering getting this card (Darkmoon Card: Wrath). It looks like for most classes with decent crit ratings, this card is underwhelming, but I see the following benefits for endgame pvp scenarios and enhancement shamans specifically:

- A good crit trinket for endgame PVP, where many opponents will have 400+ resiliance and can lower your normally high crit rating by 10% or so. Of course, the lower your crit rate, the more benefit from this card.

- Enhancement Shamans cast shocks intermittently, which have a low (~5%) crit rating. Shocks will usually not crit and will thus inflate your crit rate more than just attacking with your "real" melee crit rate.

- The fact that Shamans do use physical attacks, shocks, and occasional heals gives us a greater benefit from the card, as we benefit from both the melee and the spell crit. This will result in a small but legitimate increase in damage from shocks and increase in healing from crit heals.

- As mentioned before, classes that get significant bonuses from critting will get a better benefit from this card. When I crit, my attack speed increases by 30% and my attack power increases by 10%. This card will help keep flurry and unleashed rage up.

- Last but not least, windfury attacks occur instantaneously, and therefore when windfury procs, both attacks will benefit from any +crit charged up from the card. In this sense, the +crit charges are applied to 2 attacks and even if the first windfury proc crits, the second simultaneous proc will still receive the benefit. I have no math or in depth knowledge of the game's programming to verify this completely, but it seems to make sense.

- Stormstrike is also 2 instant attacks, and theoretically could also be a similar case of both attacks benefiting from +crit charges from the card even if the first one crits.


I respect this site and it's inhabitants very much and would love some feedback on the above points. Could the PVP-oriented enhancement Shaman be the perfect fit for this card, due to resiliance, shocks, healing, and windfury/stormstrike mechanics?
#495SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Thoricatha
Malan I notice that Wrath is not mentioned in the OP either. Has anyone ran some numbers for this trinket, including regular shocks (at low crit rate) and both Stormstrike/Windfury attacks getting benefit from the +crit charges even if the first one crits?
#496SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah sorry trinket and gem stuff is rather lax right now since I'm only putting up stuff once there's some sort of a model for it, and I'm not mathematically inclined myself.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#497SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
So is the +24 AP meta gem the way to go? The relentless one seems pretty nice considering the secondary benefit also contributes to dps.
#498SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
I think you should go for relentless earthstorm diamond, 3% increased crit damage and 12 agility.
#499SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
How does the relentless equate in AEP value for Pawn/lootzor? 12 AGI is about 24AP but it doesn't take into consideration the increased crit dmg.
#500SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
I think that a good section to elaborate on in the original post would be the discussion held a few pages back (Around 13? I think) on the 2.6/2.7 mainhand + slower 2.8 offhands, (Or perhaps in the extreme case, a 2.9 speed level 60 GM/HWL weapon.)

Since the two major smithing weapons are 2.7, and the initial post emphasizes the primacy of 2.6/2.6 or bust, I'd just foresee many redundant "Well, what about using a slightly faster/slower OH with my 2.7 smithing mainhand etc etc?"
#501SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yah I'll go back and look at that, was there ever a real conclusion made on the 2.7 OH?
#502SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Khlysti
So, finally got the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision, and while the energy surge (110 mana gain on lhw or lb) seems to be actually going off at 10% the power surge (ap bonus on ss) is well, definately not 50%.

Unfortunately eu servers just came down so I haven't had time to do more testing but from what I have so far of 210 stormstrikes which landed (so ignoring dodge/parry) 168 caused a power surge. This seems within acceptable distance for each weapon having a 50% chance to proc on ss, but I didn't have time to see if single wielding would result in much nearer 50% total procs or not.

As it is it seems including dodges (but not parries, lets hit the raid mobs from behind) the total uptime for the power surge will be ~75% and the trinket will be worth (275*0.75) 206 static AP, far higher than the expected of ~138AP.

I would love to see more data from anyone else who has this trinket, and will check to see if it is 50% with only 1 weapon equipped once servers are up tomorrow.
I would love to hear more about this. Has anyone else built the trinket and tested it yet?
#503SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
#526SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Maybe some basic guide how to manage the threat level?
I'm curious what you know about [Prism of Inner Calm]? Is it viable to choose that trinket over the ones that are posted in the OP? All I know is that it's -150 threat on melee criticals and -1000 threat on spell criticals. What if I crit with rank1 earth shock?
When the trinket is working I think it will be great for enhancement if you have a high enough crit rate. From what I understand though people that are testing this trinket (over in the Omen/Threat thread in the UI forum) are saying it doesn't appear to be working correctly.

Regarding Rank 1 Earth shock, I'd say 2 things would prohibit that - loss of damage from only using rank 1 earth shocks, and the low spell crit rate enhance has.

Ashtongue Trinket stuff - is 200 Stormstrikes a large enough statistical sample size to use for analysis?

Last edited by Malan : 07/12/07 at 12:44 PM. Reason: changed wording so that I appear like I know what I'm talking
#527SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
Im doing some more testing today after the Raid to see if the 95% is really accurate.

Concerning the [Prism of Inner Calm], my Omen is not Calculating in the Trinket at all.
#528SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Khlysti
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
About the Ashtongue Talisman: It looks like the 50% chance works for every hit of a Stormstrike attack. Because of that, the uptime is around 75%.

And also a section about threat reducement would be nice.


Sentinel
Please don't quote things already proven false, its pretty damn clear you haven't properly read what was written or you wouldn't be signing that post either.

As I said before, at first I observed a proc rate of around 80% when dual wielding and assumed this was caused by 2 weapons each having a 50% proc (which would give 75% uptime, well within acceptable range of 80% for the number of stormstrikes I had time to do). However EU servers went down before I had time to test with just 1 weapon to see if it really was a 'dual 50%' proc or just plain high. The proc rate observed with 1 weapon was once again 80%+ showing it had nothing to do with dual wield and that the '50%' label on the trinket is false.
#529SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Hedin
I think this formulas are needed in the 1st post.

In full Enhance Build with Elemental Weapons (+40% WF Damage) and Weapon Mastery(+10% Melee Damage)
Put in an AP value that you will have when completely buffed with all procs and totems included (c) Disquette

MainHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%
MainHand WF
(<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%*140%

OffHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2*110%

OffHand WF 2.1 patch
((<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2+(WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>))*110%*140%

You may use my Online PHP Script to calculate damage.

And BTW Weapon Mastery makes only 12.73AP=+1DPS

Last edited by Hedin : 07/12/07 at 4:49 PM.
#530SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I'm confused, how are you relating 10% Weapon Damage to Attack Power?
#531SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Hedin, you should probably note that you don't plan on Unleashed Rage giving additional bonuses in that example. Or perhaps make it clear that you mean "put in an AP value that you will have when completely buffed with all procs and totems included". By the way, I like that you adjusted the formula properly for OH WF 2.1 :-)

Malan, I'm not sure where you're getting that. The only 10% I see in there is from Weapon Mastery, which does affect the overall swing.
#532SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
From his last statement
And BTW Weapon Mastery makes only 12.73AP=+1DPS
Am I reading that wrong or something? Isn't he saying that 10% Weapon Dmg = 12AP or 1 DPS?
#533SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Kegsta
A very interesting thread with a lot of good info in it, thanks to all those who have contributed so far.

I'm currently elemental, but the guild has no enhancement shamans so our melle do pathetic DPS, I'm currently collecting enhancement gear and will respec this tuesday when i get this weeks arena points for the mace.

I got the [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] and will give it a try, it looks promising, should be quite nice for my very low level gear.

I also have this weapon [Rivenspike], I plan to try in my offhand -600 AC raid wide buff would fit quite well with my role as enhancement, being one of very few 2.9 weapons, I'm hoping it will still produce resonable WF dps when my AP gets up. At level 60 this weapon proc didn't work because of the low debuff limit and 40 people it would just get pushed right off, at 70 my raid runs very low on shadow priests and locks. I also have the [Bashguuder] with any luck I will beable to duel wield them the first 10 seconds of the fight to get 3 procs, then just have the offhand keep the proc up.

Last edited by Kegsta : 07/12/07 at 4:00 PM.
#534SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by Malan
From his last statement

Am I reading that wrong or something? Isn't he saying that 10% Weapon Dmg = 12AP or 1 DPS?
AP is a buff to DPS but it is realized as addtional damage added to each swing so I believe what he is saying is that weapon mastery multiplies the damage of the swing and therefor multiplies the contribution of AP and therefor with weapon mastery 12AP is roughly equal to 1DPS instead of the unbuffed value of 16ishAP per DPS.

At least I hope that's what's going on otherwise I just embarassed myself by posting in a melee thread.
#535SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Kaubel
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg

Sentinel
There's no need to sign your posts. We know who you are by looking at your profile.
#536SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by tetracycloide
AP is a buff to DPS but it is realized as addtional damage added to each swing so I believe what he is saying is that weapon mastery multiplies the damage of the swing and therefor multiplies the contribution of AP and therefor with weapon mastery 12AP is roughly equal to 1DPS instead of the unbuffed value of 16ishAP per DPS.

At least I hope that's what's going on otherwise I just embarassed myself by posting in a melee thread.
Oh ok, that makes more sense. I thought he meant that Weapon Mastery was equivelant to 1 DPS, and that seemed pretty far fetched.
#537SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I misstyped the formulas for original swings... now thay are without WF *140% :-)))
#538SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
#539SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Malan
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
I've got a bit of money to burn, so I usually use Fel strength/Mageblood and then grab some Scrolls of Strength and AGI V.
#540SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
On consumables - is there a clear winner on which Pots/Elixirs to use? I know quite a few people use Flask of Relentless Assault, I was using Fel Strength until recently and then started using Agility pots instead. Whats the order of importance of the three?
Well using Pater's AEP values:

Flask = 120
Major Agility = 110
Fel Strength = 90
Major Strength = 77

I'd say the flask is the clear winner, especially for content where you will be wiping. For easier farm stuff agi gives better bang for the buck than the other pots.
#541SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
OK, i did 468 more SS Hits with Ashtongue Trinket resulting in 420 Proccs (leaving out Misses that cant procc) = 89,7% Procchance
#542SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Strange. Do you think its just bugged? Maybe checking to see if the other effects for elemental and resto are also the same higher proc rate would be a good idea.

Edit - added this info as a note to the trinket section to indicate that it might be bugged.
#543SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Nifty01
OK, i did 468 more SS Hits with Ashtongue Trinket resulting in 420 Proccs (leaving out Misses that cant procc) = 89,7% Procchance
Have you tested this against higher level mobs as well? Some procs are inflated by level difference.
#544SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
According to some comments on wowhead, the effects on darkmoon cards wrath and crusade stack on themselves, meaning you could use x2 wrath or crusade. That'd be pretty nuts with double crusade, a static benefit of 240 ap.

I don't do much math theorycrafting, but from reading the posts in this thread and others I would think the trinket hierarchy would be something like
Ashtongue > Tsunami > DST > Hourglass > Bloodlust Brooch > Abacus > Crusade/Wrath

Any thoughts? Maybe I'm way off, and I'm not sure where prism of inner calm would fit into there.
#545SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
The 468 Hits were all done during the Raid in Mount Hyjal, so the Mobs are rather Highlevel :P

Id say Trinket hierarchy is:

Ashtongue> DST > Madness o.t.Betrayer > BLoodlust Brooch > Tsnunami > Hourglass

Not sure about the Proccrate of Madness Trinket, could be better

:>
#546SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
If we apply AEP values to the trinkets we get:

Ashtongue = 234 assuming 85% uptime.
Dragonspine = 202.5 assuming 1.5ppm, I get higher ppm in testing but not in raids so this is probably a conservative estimate.
Betrayer = 112 + proc which I'm not sure how to value, someone on wowhead is claiming 2-2.5 ppm on a sword rogue which seems pretty significant.
Tsunami = 141 assuming 0.9 ppm.
Crusade = 120 once it's stacked up which should take 10-15s, so a bit less in practice.
Bloodlust Brooch = 118.3.
Hourglass = 109 assuming 0.9 ppm.
Abacus = 107.3.
Wrath = too hard for me to figure out, another thread came to the conclusion it was quite poor for anyone with a reasonable amount of crit though.
#547SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I don't have any numbers yet because the WWS hasn't been uploaded, but i can confirm similar results with the ashtongue trinket, i'd say 9/10 SS would result in me having the buff.

Running with 35-40% crit and 2700AP is damn nice.

I broke 1400 DPS on Akama and 1200 on teron this evening.

On the pot/flask debate, I prefer agility, flask has the benefit to not reapplying it, but 5 pots usually does me a full nights raiding since we don't have the learning part now.

Just need dragonspine now, killing gruul since 17th Feb 07, had only 1 drop
#548SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
I prefer flasking right now; depending on how cheap marks of the illidari are on your server it is actually rather cheap. I can get marks for ~15g on Malganis if I'm diligent in AH trolling. Another thing in flasking's favor is EJ pc's and internet connections are always terrible in the summer for some unknown reason, and until recently I had a <6 fps on many boss fights leading to my untimely demise more often than I would like.
#549SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Here is the Teron WWS Stigmata - WWS

I'm not sure what the ashtongue buff is showing as on there? possibly power surge?

Teron 18 procs out of 27, also 17/32 and 13/17 on two wipes
Bloodboil 18 procs out of 38

The sample is way to small, but I didn't get the trinket until after we killed akama, so looking at the full raid wouldn't give a better idea either.

Teron DPS was 1362, which I think is the highest i've had in BT so far on a fight that lasted more than 5 minutes.
#550SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Okay i just saw the new violet eye rewards, and the leather chest kinda caught my eyes, (http://www.worldofraids.com/news/new...ye-rewards.jpg) is it worth it to farm for it? I currently have the nightbane mail chest, but i seriously need more hit.
#551SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Trinklet

Note about trinklets: dont forget Drake Fang Talisman while you theorycraft best trinklets dps or best-to-worse order. Ppl who were ench pre-TBC still have them! IMO, the first trinklet will replace that in my case is Madness of the Betrayer (especially since we stopped raiding ssc to have more raiding days for MH/BT).
#552SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zurgat
With the risk of going slightly off-topic, has any of the enhancement shamans here noticed being targetted by the Void Reaver's orbs while in melee range?

We finally gave in to the persistant requests from one of our shamans to try Enhancement, but ended up sending him to the outside of the ring with his healing gear because the melee group was suddenly getting orb after orb for no clear reason.
#553SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
There's a post over in the WWS thread I believe that mentions it generally only happens to Tauren shamans because we're able to stand further outside the normal hit box range. Just tell your shaman to stand inside the targeting circle and he should be ok.

I've had it happen to me a few times, moving closer fixes it.
#554SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Zurgat
With the risk of going slightly off-topic, has any of the enhancement shamans here noticed being targetted by the Void Reaver's orbs while in melee range?

We finally gave in to the persistant requests from one of our shamans to try Enhancement, but ended up sending him to the outside of the ring with his healing gear because the melee group was suddenly getting orb after orb for no clear reason.
This is caused by cow range, he would have been out of range for the pound, so he gets orbs instead.

Make him stand closer or take a deviate.
#555SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Mextro
Okay i just saw the new violet eye rewards, and the leather chest kinda caught my eyes, (http://www.worldofraids.com/news/new...ye-rewards.jpg) is it worth it to farm for it? I currently have the nightbane mail chest, but i seriously need more hit.
Are those items real? I've never seen anything saying "Improves melee critical strike rating by x", it's always been "Improves critical strike rating by x"?

And up until now, it's been tailor's taking care of the cloaks?

Are those items in game yet or is it just a hoax?

Oh, when we're on Void Reaver anyway, are you guys moving in and out of pounding, or are you letting healers take care of it? I was told our healers would have a hard time keeping us up if we didnt move out, but we got a few orbs because of that since some of us were a little slow at times getting back into melee range after poundings.
#556SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Stigmata
This is caused by cow range, he would have been out of range for the pound, so he gets orbs instead.

Make him stand closer or take a deviate.
Ah, so there's only like a 2-3 yard area where you're 1: out of melee range, and 2: not in range of the orbs?
#557SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nifty01
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Here is the Teron WWS Stigmata - WWS

I'm not sure what the ashtongue buff is showing as on there? possibly power surge?

Teron 18 procs out of 27, also 17/32 and 13/17 on two wipes
Bloodboil 18 procs out of 38

The sample is way to small, but I didn't get the trinket until after we killed akama, so looking at the full raid wouldn't give a better idea either.

Teron DPS was 1362, which I think is the highest i've had in BT so far on a fight that lasted more than 5 minutes.
So why is my Trinket Proccing so much better? Are you counting Dodges as non-Proccs? Is it possible that it Proccs less good on Bossfights? (majority of my Data comes from Trashwaves in MountHyjal). And yes, Power Surge is the Buff.

I also did >1300 dps on Teron (and easyily >1600 on Akama ^^), but had to Stop shocking to not get Aggro :[
#558SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Zurgat
Ah, so there's only like a 2-3 yard area where you're 1: out of melee range, and 2: not in range of the orbs?
Yes, cow range is incredibly useful, on the arcane WW mobs in tk tauren can stand there and carry on hitting them without dieing, much to the annoyance of the rogues.

There are so many instances when its really good, I have been told that nelf also have an increased range.

@Nifty01 If you look at the WWS I linked its only "landed" SS i'm counting.

But like I said the results are inconclusive since its such a small sample.
#559SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Are those items in game yet or is it just a hoax?

Oh, when we're on Void Reaver anyway, are you guys moving in and out of pounding, or are you letting healers take care of it?
Yes those items are real, they're on the PTR for the 2.2 patch.
Melee running out on void reaver is a good way to get your tanks killed by dragging an orb on them and prevents melee from doing any significant DPS. The fact that its survivable by guilds who can't kill Mag is a good indication that you should just suck it up. A resto shaman chain healing can almost keep all the melee alive by himself.
#560SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes those items are real, they're on the PTR for the 2.2 patch.
Melee running out on void reaver is a good way to get your tanks killed by dragging an orb on them and prevents melee from doing any significant DPS. The fact that its survivable by guilds who can't kill Mag is a good indication that you should just suck it up. A resto shaman chain healing can almost keep all the melee alive by himself.
We've killed him a few times now, but yesterday we had way too much melee (vacation period for the mages/locks it seems) so we had to make do with what we had.
I can say,, 3 rogues, 4 warriors, 1 enhancement shaman, and a druid. Definitely doesn't work. Aside lower than usual dps, the healers were going oom pretty fast.

I wonder what his knockback value is though, KTM is nowhere near accurate on VR.
#561SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Lets keep fight mechanics out of this thread if possible, otherwise its going to derail pretty significantly.

Btw for the guy above, I added DFT to the trinket list, however its only valued at 70 AEP. You'd be better off with any of the new TBC trinkets over that one.

Adding to new items coming out in 2.2 are these new gems -

Now the only question is, what other mats do these need? Several of them just say the need things like a Noble Topaz or a Living Ruby... but surely there is some other mat that makes these an "epic" gem pattern?

Edit -and poop, they're all BoP. I hope that's a misprint on a tooltip and that these aren't just a perk for JCs.
#562SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malan

Edit -and poop, they're all BoP. I hope that's a misprint on a tooltip and that these aren't just a perk for JCs.
That could be the reason why they only require a Living Ruby etc.
#563SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dukes
Originally Posted by Zurgat
We've killed him a few times now, but yesterday we had way too much melee (vacation period for the mages/locks it seems) so we had to make do with what we had.
I can say,, 3 rogues, 4 warriors, 1 enhancement shaman, and a druid. Definitely doesn't work. Aside lower than usual dps, the healers were going oom pretty fast.

I wonder what his knockback value is though, KTM is nowhere near accurate on VR.
KTM has knockaway set as 0.5 when it's actually 0.75. Either start using omen, or set "knockaway default" to 0.75 (something like /ktm boss abilities set knockaway default 0.75).

I think the gems are just a perk for jewelcrafters. BoP, Unique-equip and the very easy mat requirements makes it all look that way.
#564SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by dukes
KTM has knockaway set as 0.5 when it's actually 0.75. Either start using omen, or set "knockaway default" to 0.75 (something like /ktm boss abilities set knockaway default 0.75).

I think the gems are just a perk for jewelcrafters. BoP, Unique-equip and the very easy mat requirements makes it all look that way.
Cheers, ill try that sunday.

Looks like JC got a little extra perk, not suprising since the trinket alone doesn't really make it worth taking.
4x4 extra stats (for rogues) is quite nice, but doesn't really compare to what enchanters can have on their rings, unless they add unique recipes for the BT/Hy jewels as well. It's mostly useful for melee dps, since most casters or tanks fill their sockets with just 1 type of gem.
Looks like they only have these for the pure gems (RYB) as well.
#565SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Wolflord
Originally Posted by Mextro
Okay i just saw the new violet eye rewards, and the leather chest kinda caught my eyes, (http://www.worldofraids.com/news/new...ye-rewards.jpg) is it worth it to farm for it? I currently have the nightbane mail chest, but i seriously need more hit.
The leather chestpiece compares nicely with the Ebon Netherscale breastplate (the leather has slightly more dps stats, but not enough to make it seriously better than the netherscale's stam/mana advantage) which definitely puts it as an upgrade over the nightbane chest.

I think the real gem is that cloak though, the same DPS as a Vengeance Wrap with 25stamina thrown in too. I guess thats why it costs four nethers (Im putting mine aside now in preperation).

Last edited by Wolflord : 07/13/07 at 11:08 AM. Reason: comparison fixed
#566SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
One thing we have still not addressed is the Stormstrike cycling. We need some modeling and/or testing to determine if the 'use it when its lit' or 'use it only when a WF cooldown has ended' is the best methodology. We'll need to know that the supposedly increased windfury procs are going to offset the 5% (or more) loss of Stormstrike damage by not using it every 10 sec.

Edit - to clarify, we've had many people talk about using the "wait till I'm off WF CD" method, but nobody has provide any sort of modeling or testing numbers to actually back it up. All we have so far is anecdotal stories.

Last edited by Malan : 07/13/07 at 1:06 PM.
#567SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Originally Posted by Wolflord
The leather chestpiece compares nicely with the Ebon Netherscale breastplate (the leather has slightly more dps stats, but not enough to make it seriously better than the netherscale's stam/mana advantage) which definitely puts it as an upgrade over the nightbane chest.

I think the real gem is that cloak though, the same DPS as a Vengeance Wrap with 25stamina thrown in too. I guess thats why it costs four nethers (Im putting mine aside now in preperation).
Mana isn't exactly my biggest problem, i need less mp/5 and more hit
#568SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
A couple new very solid craftable items of use to enhancement shamans coming in patch 2.2: http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...wvioleteye.jpg
From just an eyeball, that chest looks better than anything you can get before Hydross/Karathress. The cloak looks pretty solid too.

As already linked above, gemming's also going to get a bit more complicated, at least if you're a Blueberry JC like some of us are (http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...ly/newgems.jpg). Looks like the +24 AP, +12 Crit Rating, and +12 AGI gems are better than +8 STR. This actually gives me an incentive to finish leveling JC.
#569SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Yah a shaman JC gets a great benefit from those since there's 3 gems we can make use of. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a +12 Strength gem that wasn't put on the vendor yet though.
#570SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Here is the Teron WWS Stigmata - WWS

I'm not sure what the ashtongue buff is showing as on there? possibly power surge?

Teron 18 procs out of 27, also 17/32 and 13/17 on two wipes
Bloodboil 18 procs out of 38

The sample is way to small, but I didn't get the trinket until after we killed akama, so looking at the full raid wouldn't give a better idea either.

Teron DPS was 1362, which I think is the highest i've had in BT so far on a fight that lasted more than 5 minutes.

WWS only shows newly gained buffs, and with a decent latency you can easily refresh power surge before (by a fraction of a second) the previous one fades. In which case you never see a new 'gain power surge' message. For me it is similar, looking at wws events I get ~50% procs, looking at actual buff information and tracking manually its 80%+. If you want to use WWS to track it then always hit stormstrike slightly late to make sure the earlier power surge has faded.
#571SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Shabadu
I've noticed on some mobs, my cowrange is reporting my aggro on Omen as falling under the range buffer. I've never been close to aggro due to the nature of the fights; azgalor, archimonde, etc, but it'd be interesting to see if it's true.
#572SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Khlysti
WWS only shows newly gained buffs, and with a decent latency you can easily refresh power surge before (by a fraction of a second) the previous one fades. In which case you never see a new 'gain power surge' message. For me it is similar, looking at wws events I get ~50% procs, looking at actual buff information and tracking manually its 80%+. If you want to use WWS to track it then always hit stormstrike slightly late to make sure the earlier power surge has faded.
Never thought of that. Is there a mod i can run to track the procs?
#573SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ilmater
I apologize if this has been said and I just missed it, but I'm wondering where Romulo's Poison Vial ranks in the list of trinkets. Last night, in a bit of testing, the poison proc itself was counting for 2% of my damage (I wasn't using shocks, except to interrupt spells, as I was grinding). I wonder how that compares to other buffs.

Here is my armory to get an idea of where I am gear-wise, as that % would obviously be less if I was doing more damage otherwise:

Ilmaterr's Armory

Hope we can place this somewhere on the list.

EDIT: Also ran Heroic Mech last night, and again it was about 2% of my damage.

Last edited by Ilmater : 07/14/07 at 6:23 AM.
#574SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3anyakaschala
weapons

I've read mose of this, and am trying to get the gist of all of it. Currently I'm way way off balance. MH decapitator 2.6, OH stellaris 1.9, so my haste on OH goes below the 1.5 thresh. I've been looking for an AH green, but nothing even close to lvl 70 or even 65, only things there are 41dps healer maces or axes.

So I guess the main question I have is should I get a Runic Hammer for my OH since it's 2.4 or would I be better off with a 70 dps 2.6, like the heroics from mana tombs or crypts.
#575SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
The 70 dps 2.6 is likely to do better. with the OH penalty, you're only looking at a raw 5dps difference.
#576SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Could someone please explain to me, exactly how you think going below 1.5 speed weapons has a negative affect and show the proof that the loss in one type of damage is not equal to or less than a different damage type.

This theory is affecting everyone? when no one has any idea or has tested it my knowledge.

In the last 5 pages half the posters have been confused with weapon speed.
#577SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Pater posted something showing the possibility of a DPS drop between 1.44 and 1.50 attack speed area. The drop started at 1.50 and went back up to pre-1.50 areas at 1.44%. I'll see if I can find it again. Don't know if its been proven, but some interesting data. But it was done to show the effects of haste to our DPS.
#578SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ frotes
I believe it has to do with the fact that being inbetween 1.4-1.5 means that your 2nd hit will land just outside of the 3s WF cooldown. So if your both weapon speed was 1.49, you could only proc WF every 4.47 seconds since your first hit after procing a WF and triggering the cooldown would land at 1.49 then 2.98 then 4.47.
#579SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Right, it's a small window of attack speed that basically guarantees you'll be waiting the maximum amount of time possible for a chance at proc'ing windfury after the 3 second cooldown has expired.

Simply put, if your attack speed is 1.5 it is possible for you to proc Windfury every 3 seconds. If your attack speed is 1.49 a Windfury proc is only possible once every 4.47 seconds. See the problem? The extra white damage is not enough to overcome the delay in Windfury procs for this very specific window of attack speed.

It'd be even worse if your attack speed were say 2.9, in which case you could only proc Windfury once every 5.8 seconds. Luckily that's not possible unless you're using a two-handed weapon.

Anyway, as you get lower and lower below a 1.49 attack speed it gets better and better, until eventually it starts actually increasing your dps again instead of nerfing it. Like I said, it's just a specific 'window' of attack speed around 1.49 that is very bad. Generally faster is definitely better.

Last edited by Sebudai : 07/14/07 at 5:53 AM.
#580SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Right, it's a small window of attack speed that basically guarantees you'll be waiting the maximum amount of time possible for a chance at proc'ing windfury after the 3 second cooldown has expired.

Simply put, if your attack speed is 1.5 it is possible for you to proc Windfury every 3 seconds. If your attack speed is 1.49 a Windfury proc is only possible once every 4.47 seconds. See the problem? The extra white damage is not enough to overcome the delay in Windfury procs for this very specific window of attack speed.

It'd be even worse if your attack speed were say 2.9, in which case you could only proc Windfury once every 5.8 seconds. Luckily that's not possible unless you're using a two-handed weapon.

Anyway, as you get lower and lower below a 1.49 attack speed it gets better and better, until eventually it starts actually increasing your dps again instead of nerfing it. Like I said, it's just a specific 'window' of attack speed around 1.49 that is very bad. Generally faster is definitely better.
Yea I get that, but this is all reliant on the fact that you would proc WF as soon as its off CD, which is definitely not always the case.
#581SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
It's not really reliant on that fact at all. Over time, if you are attacking every 1.49 seconds, you will average less total damage than you would if you were attacking every 1.5 seconds with the same weapons. The slight gain in white damage is not enough to account for the delay to your possible windfury procs.

To put it another way, at 1.5 speed, it is possible for 50% of your attacks to proc WF. Basically every other attack atleast has a chance to proc. At 1.49 speed, it is possible for only about 33% of your attacks to proc WF. After we take into account WF's 20% proc chance, this means that over 100 attacks a 1.5 speed weapon will average about 10 WF procs, where as a 1.49 speed weapon will average about 6.6 WF procs.

The damage you get from the extra 3.4(on average) WF procs every 100 attacks will definitelty surpass the damage you gain by attacking .1 seconds faster. In the amount of time it takes a 1.5 speed weapon to make 100 attacks(150 seconds), a 1.49 speed weapon will have made 100.6 attacks. That's not even 1 extra attack per 100 attacks.

Last edited by Sebudai : 07/14/07 at 6:48 AM.
#582SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Some things about weapon speed, the next ideas only apply to high-end raiding gear probably, with a flurry uptime of >75%.

Let's consider two 2.6s weapons, without 100% flurry uptime (and no haste gear), with flurry we have an average swing time of 1.0 = (2.6+2.6)/(4*1.3)

F* = flurried swing
NF* = nonflurried swing
WF = windfury

NF+WF,F1,F2,F3

this means: "Windfury procced from an non flurried critical swing and we gain 3 charges"

NF: 0.0s
F1: 1.0s
F2: 1.0s
F3: 1.0s

in this case, our 3rd flurried swing will be still in the 3s CD for Windfury (assuming no lag).

Now if we have slower weapons, with an average flurried swing time of >1.0, let's say dual 2.8s with 6% haste gear (2.8+2.8)/(4*1.36) = 1.03s, the last flurried swing F3 is not in the 3s Cooldown anymore and can again proc flurry.

So the mathematical difference is basically:

1-(1-crit)^3 vs. 1-(1-crit)^(3+2*0.36)

For 40% crit the values are: 0.784 vs. 0.850

Simply spoken, as soon as we reach a certain crit level, where the above example is true more often than not (37% crit -> 75% flurry uptime), there will be a jump in the flurry uptime if your weapons are slower than 2.6s in combination.

The above problem just increases the weight of slow weapons in both hands.

The above swing time problem, is the only problem, I am aware of for weapon speeds which can be shown with every model currently in use.

The bottom line is:
You should be aware, that with high levels of crit you might not see a linear increase of dps, just because your average swing time is below 1.0s now and the above example holds true.
The dps difference is not much, maybe in the 1.5% range


How often the example "wf cd ends at the same time as your flurry" is true, is more complicated to say, there is certainly a crit rate where it will be above 50% (~37% crit).


Edit:
As for the 1.50s/1.49s discussion, there are no realistic weapon combinatins to reach that with dual wield, your average attack speed is well below and the attack speed for your mh is above, if you want to reach the optimal mh wf count.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 07/14/07 at 6:58 AM.
#583SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Is it possible to get to 1.49 speed with the current available items?

I tend to be at 1.6/1.54 and with bloodlust 1.12 MH (I think) DST would drop it to bloodlust speed. Would that be an overall increase in dps? Might have done the math wrong there.

2.7 speed - 30% (flurry) = 1.89 - 20% (dragonstrike) = 1.50 - 30.95% (dst) = 1.04

I'm sure the above must be wrong, since it doesn't tally with what I notice on the character screen.
#584SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Is it possible to get to 1.49 speed with the current available items?

I tend to be at 1.6/1.54 and with bloodlust 1.12 MH (I think) DST would drop it to bloodlust speed. Would that be an overall increase in dps? Might have done the math wrong there.

2.7 speed - 30% (flurry) = 1.89 - 20% (dragonstrike) = 1.50 - 30.95% (dst) = 1.04

I'm sure the above must be wrong, since it doesn't tally with what I notice on the character screen.
assume flurry+dragonstrikeproc+dst = 30%+20%+30.95%

= 2.7/(1+0.3+0.2+0.3095) = 1.492



Note: this does not mean dst is a bad item, the gain in white dmg is greater than the loss of wf procs for that moment, the damage will be on average just less thant having a hypothetical 2.8s weapon with dragonstrikeproc in the mh.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 07/14/07 at 7:06 AM.
#585SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
assume flurry+dragonstrikeproc+dst = 30%+20%+30.95%

= 2.7/(1+0.3+0.2+0.3095) = 1.492
Thanks.

Any thoughts on at what point dropping below 1.5 speed becomes better?
#586SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Thanks.

Any thoughts on at what point dropping below 1.5 speed becomes better?
Hmm, let's see, assume flurry uptime of 85%, dst uptime of 40%, dragonstrikproc uptime of 20% (dunno the exact value here), the probability that all three are up at the same time is, simplified, just the individual rates multiplied.

so we have a 7% probability of getting below 1.5s, so just forget it, the individual worth of the different haste procs is superior than the loss of a bit wf damage for the rare case that all 3 effects are up at the same time.
#587SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Nifty01
I have a 2.6 offhand (Netherbane) hasted to 2.51 by passive hasterating.

When flurry is up (80%+ in Raids), DST procc is up (>34%) and mongoose is up (1 of 2 is enough) the speed is 1.46. With dual mongoose up even my 2.7 MH is hasted to 1.49.

What would be the best to do now? Take off the 36 hasterating from my belt ( 1.55 /1.5 with FLurry/DST/1 Mongoose) or try to stack more hasterating? Wouldnt the procc from Dragonstrike make things even worse?

I know the best would be to have 2.8 speed weapons, but syphon doenst drop :[

Last edited by Nifty01 : 07/14/07 at 8:49 AM.
#588SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Thanks.

Any thoughts on at what point dropping below 1.5 speed becomes better?
http://elitistjerks.com/398309-post78.html
If you follow Pater's haste model, you'd see an increase in DPS at 1.41 speed, at a 55% haste speed. (Sorry if I've missed if this has been proven to be incorrect)

Though as Thornhoof says it's a rare scenario to have all effects up at once.
#589SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Nifty01
I have a 2.6 offhand (Netherbane) hasted to 2.51 by passive hasterating.

When flurry is up (80%+ in Raids), DST procc is up (>34%) and mongoose is up (1 of 2 is enough) the speed is 1.46. With dual mongoose up even my 2.7 MH is hasted to 1.49.

What would be the best to do now? Take off the 36 hasterating from my belt ( 1.55 /1.5 with FLurry/DST/1 Mongoose) or try to stack more hasterating? Wouldnt the procc from Dragonstrike make things even worse?

I know the best would be to have 2.8 speed weapons, but syphon doenst drop :[
Stack haste, there is nothing bad about haste, even though there are certain speed combinations which are less useful than other ones. But they just apply to passive haste basically. As I wrote above, the probability is very small that all your trinkets and stuff will proc at the same time. Generically spoken, get as much haste as you can get, since it will increase your white dmg drastically. As long as you don't approach the 1.5s range with passive haste buffs only, the variation of procs will be large enough, that it won't affect your average windfury time.
#590SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malacort
Hello,

I would just like to get a quick 2nd opinion to make sure my math is right regarding gems, [Bold Living Ruby] vs [Bold Ornate Ruby] I did the math, and with motw+kings the 20 ap gem still yielded more ap overall raid buffed, is this correct?

(I added strength totem before adding kings if it even makes a difference)

493 str x2 = 987.58 ap (3x 8str gems)
467 str x2 = 994.78 (3x 20ap gems)

Last edited by Malacort : 07/14/07 at 2:50 PM.
#591SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Unique?
#592SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malacort
Hello,

I would just like to get a quick 2nd opinion to make sure my math is right regarding gems, [Bold Living Ruby] vs [Bold Ornate Ruby] I did the math, and with motw+kings the 20 ap gem still yielded more ap overall raid buffed, is this correct?

(I added strength totem before adding kings if it even makes a difference)

493 str x2 = 987.58 ap (3x 8str gems)
467 str x2 = 994.78 (3x 20ap gems)
What you want to do is to figure out the actual AP value of each gem, you're complicating things a great deal when you're adding MOTW and Kings and your AP, when you can just add Kings to the [Bold Living Ruby].

[Bold Living Ruby]: 8x1.1x2=17.6AP
[Bold Ornate Ruby]: 20AP

So yes, it would be better with 3 [Bold Ornate Ruby], but they're "Unique-Equipped", meaning your gear can only have one of those gems in it.
#593SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malacort
wow totally missed that, thanks

haha
#594SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dukanull
Liking the work you guys are doing with the Haste rating, definetly lots of food for thought.

The question I have, since my guild is currently working on Kael, is which legendary should I be using?

Devastation vs. the infinity blade MH. Seems like I do HORRIBLE dps with the two-hander, and almost seems worth it to just use my regular set-up (Wicked Edge/2.6 S2 Axe) or switch the wicked edge for an infinity blade. The speed boost seems useful for running from Sanguinar to Telonicus, then to Kael to interrupt that potentially lethal first fireball, as well as running to eggs. On the other hand, I'd be running slower, but doing more consistent and reilable damage.

I have heard Stig say on multiple occassions he uses Devastation, thoughts?
#595SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
assume flurry+dragonstrikeproc+dst = 30%+20%+30.95%

= 2.7/(1+0.3+0.2+0.3095) = 1.492
I don't think this is how haste effects are added, it differs from what I actually see in game.

I just did a quick test and with Flurry + Mongoose + DST + 31 passive haste rating, my weapon speed showed 1.52.

With that formula it should have been 2.7/(1+0.3+0.02+0.3095+0.0295) = 1.63

What I actually saw matched ((((2.7/1.3)/1.02)/1.3095)/1.0295) = 1.51

If we apply that to the original example we get (((2.7/1.3)/1.2)/1.3095) = 1.32 Which is well under the "dead zone".
#596SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Morelis
I don't think this is how haste effects are added, it differs from what I actually see in game.

I just did a quick test and with Flurry + Mongoose + DST + 31 passive haste rating, my weapon speed showed 1.52.

With that formula it should have been 2.7/(1+0.3+0.02+0.3095+0.0295) = 1.63

What I actually saw matched ((((2.7/1.3)/1.02)/1.3095)/1.0295) = 1.51

If we apply that to the original example we get (((2.7/1.3)/1.2)/1.3095) = 1.32 Which is well under the "dead zone".
Yes apparently you are correct, that different sources of haste stack multiplicatively and not additive, thanks for pointing that out.
#597SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Morelis
I just did a quick test and with Flurry + Mongoose + DST + 31 passive haste rating, my weapon speed showed 1.52.

What I actually saw matched ((((2.7/1.3)/1.02)/1.3095)/1.0295) = 1.51
This is also wrong, correct method is...

1) add together all currently active items which apply haste rating (in this case 325+31 = 356)

2) convert total haste rating to a speed multiplier. (here its 356/10.5 = 33.905 ->1.33905)

3) apply all speed multipliers which are active (here its 2.7/1.3/1.02/1.33905 = 1.52)

Your method was very nearly right here, but if you have quite a few seperate haste rating items then applying them seperately will give an answer further away from the truth. There is also no need for that number of brackets when dividing, order is not relevant so it can be all done in one.
#598SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
I would like to ask something about the 1Str = 1CR equation:
Given that 1Str=1CR, 1% Crit would be equal to 22 Str or 44 AP.

As of my current gear, I have 1250 Ap, 28% Crit and 21.75% Hit; Black Planar Edge MH. My avarage hit would be 536 (MH only for simplicity reason, mainly for me) without migation, at least that's what my charscreen says.

In 100 hits, that would make 53600 + 28x536 = 68608 dmg, but I guess I would miss about 4 hits, so it's 66464.
That is if crit is unaccected by misses, in the way that even with 0 hit and 20% crit, out of 100 hits you would still hit 75 times and crit 20 times.

So
adding 1% crit would give me 53600 + 29x536 = 69144 or 67000 with the misses.
adding 44 AP would give me 44/14 = 3.142 DPS or ~8.4 dmg per hit.
This would result in 544.4 average hit and 54440 + 28x544.4 = 69683.2 or 67505.6 dmg after 100 hits.
That would mean a 500 dmg difference, which is almost 1%.

That is as far as my math skills reach, don't know if this is even worth mentioning, but it seemed strange to me that AP would help me more than crit, as I thought crit would be better. Maybe I just make a mistake and all that is obsolete; but as a result, I would stack AP over crit now.


I would like to ask another thing, as I have no idea how to calculate that:
I have Maulgar's Warhelm and the Desolation Helm. I wonder which one would be better if I had the critdmg meta gem in the desolation piece.
#599SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Khlysti
This is also wrong, correct method is...

1) add together all currently active items which apply haste rating (in this case 325+31 = 356)

2) convert total haste rating to a speed multiplier. (here its 356/10.5 = 33.905 ->1.33905)

3) apply all speed multipliers which are active (here its 2.7/1.3/1.02/1.33905 = 1.52)

Your method was very nearly right here, but if you have quite a few seperate haste rating items then applying them seperately will give an answer further away from the truth. There is also no need for that number of brackets when dividing, order is not relevant so it can be all done in one.
Are haste rating added up and then applied, while flurry\mongoose\bloodlust are applied as their own multiplier then?

I did a quick test with a twohander for a warrior today, and I ended up going from 3.60, flurried to 2.77 and then bloodlusted to 2.13.

I thought at first it would be 3.60/(1+0.3+0.3), but this didnt match the numbers so I did
3.60/1.3=~2.77
2.77/1.3=~2.13

Can we safely say that percentage-based haste buffs are added seperately from the haste rating buffs then?

So it'll end up as

(((((Weapon speed/flurry)/bloodlust)/mongoose)/mongoose)/haste rating + haste rating + ..) = new speed?

Last edited by Ardonomus : 07/14/07 at 6:22 PM. Reason: Tidying up
#600SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Ujai
I would like to ask something about the 1Str = 1CR equation:
Given that 1Str=1CR, 1% Crit would be equal to 22 Str or 44 AP.
You can not use simplified single hand formulas to argue about these values, for example each crit also affects flurry and unleashed rage and also the offhand, while each additional strength (or 2 ap) also affects unleashed rage and the offhand. Additionally these values are for raidbuffed equipment, they do not necessarily apply to unbuffed equipment.

A few values the ideal equipment of my current model calculates:

normal 1377,98
+44 AP 1392.62
+22.1 CR 1392.11
+15.8 HR 1387.48
+10.5 HasteR 1386.98

increase:
+44 AP 14.64 DPS
+22.1 CR = 14.13 DPS
+15.8 HR = 9.5 DPS
+10.5 HasteR = 9 DPS

1 Str = 2 AP = 1 CR = 1.06 HitR = 0.75 HasteRating

HasteRating probably changes to certain degrees with the equipment, as for the other values you can easily ignore the +0.06 for the HitRating. For this equipment each Rating is of equal value, while HasteRating is superior.

I will add equivalence calculations to my model soonish.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 07/14/07 at 7:09 PM.
#601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Can we safely say that percentage-based haste buffs are added seperately from the haste rating buffs then?
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
#602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Yes, anything with a rating is added together to give a total % haste that comes from rating. Anything that has a flat % effect is applied on its own as a multiplier.
What about DST, does it have it's own buff icon etc, while still being haste rating? Is it added up with the passive haste rating, or applied on it's own?
#603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
#604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3 = 1.9962736/1.5 = 1.3308 = 347.39 rating, -212 for dragonstrike = 135 passive haste needed.

You then get 2.7/1.02/1.02/1.3/1.3305 = 1.5004 speed.

valestalker + mukoa + 2x band of devastation = 36+37+31+31 = 135 passive haste, its almost like its planned :P
#605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Igniter
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
#606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Igniter
I would love to see a model (or numbers) showing the perfect amount of passive haste along with with x2 mongoose, dragonstrike, and flurry to hit a 1.5 speed on the nose.
I hit 1.5 pretty regularly in raids, I however do not have any of the passive haste items yet. Cataclysm flurry (1.35), 2x Mongoose(1.02, 1.02), Dragonstrike, and Drums of Battle(1.278) = 1.504.
#607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Morelis
Assuming haste is handled the way Khlysti described you would need 135 passive haste rating to hit almost exactly 1.5 with the items listed. It's really not useful to know though since you'd be optimizing your gear for a situation that will only happen rarely. Any compromises you made to reach that goal would almost certainly hurt your DPS overall.
Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion
#608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Igniter
Flurry and dragonstrike proc are not a rare occasion
Probability isn't a strong area for me and this is probably oversimplifying but given 80% uptime on flurry(pater's sim @ 30% crit) and 2ppm for dragonstrike(what I've observed in testing), the likelihood of both buffs being up at the same time is roughly 27%. Throw in 2 mongoose procs at 2ppm and you'll only spend about 7% of your time with all those buffs active.

These are pretty rough numbers though because I don't take into account buffs refreshing themselves or any changes to proc rates due to the extra haste. Still, the numbers should be in the ballpark and I'd maintain that optimizing your gear choices for a very small amount of time is not the best way to plan your upgrades. I know for myself I'll just pick the items that offer the best individual stats and try to make sure my average haste doesn't put me between 1.5 and 1.41.
#609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?
#610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata
The 2 ppm from dragonstrike doesn't seem right, I'm certain its up more than that. On a slightly different note, I had 8 back to back procs a while back, the druid tanking was like, why do you have a permanent sprint animation.

edit: after looking at some WWS it would seemt he proc rate may be below 2 ppm, this seems strange because I tend to look at my character screen alot during raids, to see weapon speed, ap and crit (just to see what it spikes too) And the weapon speed are often hovering around 1.5 or lower, which I dont think would be the case without the dragonstrike proc.

Another thought, does wws pick up a refresh of dragonstrike if i dont lose the buff?
No, it doesn't. It's really quite annoying for tracking Flurry uptime. Also, if you have a Dragonspine Trophy, the buff is called "Haste" as well, so it's quite hard to actually tell how often they proc.

2 PPM sounds okay to me, are you factoring in the fact that all those haste procs increases the chance for further haste procs?

Last edited by panny : 07/16/07 at 7:53 AM. Reason: clarity
#611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Addon for weapon speed tracking?

Is there any addon to track the MH/OH weapon speed over time? Can someone do it?
I'm thinking about a simple addon that summarizes weapon speed data like this:
"Time spent in combat: 300 seconds
Weapon speed, seconds, % of time spent
2.6, 45, 15%
2.0, 240, 80%"
and so on...
I think it would help us a lot to get real tested data.
#612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent!

WWS

WWS

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up!
#613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.
#614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Gwaihir
Something seems odd with those logs.. In the first one you clocked in 22% white crit, while in the second you hit 38% white crits???

Same for other skills, WF went from 18% to 32% crit, while stormstrike seemed the most normal at 24% -> 28%.

Was your group setup radically different, or something? That seems like an awfully large difference in crit to chalk up to WoW RNG streaks.
The first one is the old one, and I had way more hit rating there then I'm using now. I think I was close to hit capped. I suppose that would lead to more white hits, and I had 2 rogues, warrior and a feral druid in my group on the last one. Compared to a warrior+3 rogues last attempt.

So okay, it wasn't only the OH weapon change, but I'm sure that contributed aswell!
#615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Ilmater
I apologize if this has been said and I just missed it, but I'm wondering where Romulo's Poison Vial ranks in the list of trinkets. Last night, in a bit of testing, the poison proc itself was counting for 2% of my damage (I wasn't using shocks, except to interrupt spells, as I was grinding). I wonder how that compares to other buffs.

Here is my armory to get an idea of where I am gear-wise, as that % would obviously be less if I was doing more damage otherwise:

Ilmaterr's Armory

Hope we can place this somewhere on the list.
Sorry to quote myself here, but I haven't seen any responses. I have been watching this very closely, and even with an elemental shaman in my group last night to eat up the SS buff, I'm still seeing this trinket's procs making up 2% of my damage (though Recount doesn't give me 1/10th of a %, so that's as detailed as I can tell).

On Netherspite, with the Elemental Shaman in the blue beam, I used a different trinket to give him the full SS buff, so I can see that making a difference as far as usefulness, but I still would like to see the difference.
#616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets, to match up with the other ones I posted they would have values of:

DFT = 84
KotS = 92
Romulo's = 49 + proc. This might not be a terrible trinket after all. Assuming 2ppm which I think is a bit conservative with WF it would add on average 9.3dps. You could argue that is equivalent to 129ap, of course it doesn't synergize with our yellow damage(except for possibly stormstrike by a small amount) so it would roughly only add 1/2 the value of straight attack power. I would say a conservative estimate gives it an AEP of 113.5 which is about right for where it drops.
#618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
Oh right sorry missed the vial completely. 35 Hit Rating valued at 35/1.44 = 24.30 AEP with some sort of value from the proc... unless you're starved for +Hit this has just really turned out to be a poor trinket for shaman.
I understand the hit rating being low value (and I'm not hurting for HR at all), but if it's making up 2% of my damage, rounded up, simple math would say that this is at least a 2% increase in my damage output. I'm wondering how that compares to an item with an AEP of, say, 107 or 118.

Part of this is my ignorance, but I wouldn't think that 83 AEP (the difference between what the proc'd ability would have to get me vs. using the Abacus) would mean a 2% increase in my damage. Am I wrong? I could be, just asking.
#619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Morelis
Just noticed we're not using the same scales for the trinkets
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
Uh oh. Well that explains why I couldn't figure out how you had valued one of the haste trinkets. Can you check the first post real quick and make sure I didn't make any other slip ups?
They all look good.
#621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
berg
Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff.

If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get...
- 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing.
- 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff.

4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75%
93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate.


I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%.

Our class is so weird.

Last edited by berg : 07/16/07 at 3:29 PM.
#622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
More evidence that the itemization team is not working very closely with the mechanics team?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dragonreaper
First off thanks for gathering all this up into one thread, it has helped me alot in dicideing what to do. I do however have a few questions.
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one. So that leaves me with the two crafted weapons. From a stat point I like the stats of the Fel Edged Axe better, I saw a post a while back that showed 2.7/2.2 and 2.7/2.4 have the same chance to steal wf's so the advantege of the Runic Hammer is it's 8.5~ more dmg to wf's and ss, I then ran into another peice of info, I hear the drakefist procs alot, and adding it's proc with flurry the runic hammer goes to 1.43speed, with mongoose it's still at 1.414 but a 2nd proc puts it at 1.38, compairing it to the fel edged which goes to 1.32 is this loss enough of a difference to make up for the 8.5~dmg loss to ss and wf's?, Also I seem to see don't use under speed 2.4 alot, is there a specific reason for that vaule or is it just a general good vaule to tell people to stay slow/slow?
#624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Thanks for the help on Romulo's Poison. That is more what I was expecting. I'm going to try to test out Abacus versus it (IF THE ABACUS WOULD EVER FREAKING DROP!!!!) and I'll let you know what it shows.

I have a few more questions I'm hoping someone can answer:

- If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?

- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP, and secondly, it seems against your point right after that:
Shaman need all stats in as large of quantities as possible. The above is not a rule, there are no magical numbers that we can point to of "you need this much hit/crit/AP." You need lots of each, probably more Crit than Hit according to models, but still lots of each.
My question is, has there been any work done to see what a more equal distribution of stats would give for the benefit of each incremental point? Though I would have a hard time believing that AP could be UNDER-valued in that model, I would be very curious to see if these weightings were constant for every level of gearing.

- Ring Enchants: +2 weapon damage or +4 to all stats? The mats for +4 to all stats are INSANE for how small the buff is, and I'm not sure +2 weapon damage, with flurry, SS, and WF wouldn't add up to more over time. Any thoughts? With slow weapons preferred for Shaman, I would think that would especially de-value this enchant.

- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.

Thanks for the help, sorry for all the questions.
#625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Dragonreaper
First off, whats up with flurry?, I see alot of math here use flurry as 30%, but in game, while duelwielding, it is more around 23%. Is this some kind of tooltip bug I missed or am I just missing something?
Flurry is a 30% attack speed increase, but the way attack speed increases work are like this: Weapon speed = Weapon Speed * 1/(100% + 30%). That's the same thing as multiplying by 0.769, which is why you're observing a 23.1% decrease in weapon speed.
In that regard that brings me to my current problem, after a long time of thinking it out I have dicided to choose the Drakefist over the Planar Edge. I can't seem to choose an offhand though, I ruled out the blue weapons as they are all faster then the drakefist but have less dps then the two crafted weapons, and the arena weapon should be an option next season but not this one.
Why would you rule out the blue offhands just for having less DPS? The first post of this thread goes into a lot of detail explaining that slow offhands are necessary, regardless of DPS. Anyway, your only realistic option besides blues is the Runic Hammer (again check main post). That said, there's absolutely no reason the arena weapon shouldn't be an option this season. At 300 points a week (easily attained by a mediocre 2v2 team or a horrible 5v5 team) you'll end up with the Cleaver or Pummeler in 9 weeks.
#626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ujai
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Going from [Fel Edged Battleaxe] to [High Warlord's Cleaver] in the OH added 136DPS for me on our last Tidewalker kill.
I've only received some minor upgrades and dumped some +hit for more crit and AP. Needless to say time spent reading here is time well spent!

WWS

WWS

Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread, keep it up!
As you mentioned the HWL Cleaver...I'm really interested in how this does against a 71.x 2.6 blue offhand or the FEB. Mainly because I PvP now more than I used to to get either the epic lvl 60 or blue lvl 70 weapon, yielding FEB at the moment.
I don't really know which PvP weapon is better, though; arena offhand will still take a while to accomplish.
Especially as I've read among the official forums that HW Cleaver is supposed to be better than the S1 arena offhand...


/edit:
@ Ilmater: These values are raidbuffed and are in no way off. 380 BS, 220 BoM, 196 SoE, +10% UR and you will probably be over the said 2200 AP.

Last edited by Ujai : 07/16/07 at 3:47 PM.
#627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Azide
Originally Posted by Ilmater
.. - Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS??? First off, I'm not sure how an enhancement shaman gets to 2200 AP ..
I'm just under 1500 AP unbuffed. Screenshot from last night's raid shows 2323 AP. (No flasks/potions.) My crit is ~25% unbuffed, my hit is lacking but is a lower priority than other stats.

My gear is far from good (nothing SSC/TKE yet) but my point is that its easy to get a lot of AP from raid buffs.

Last edited by Azide : 07/16/07 at 3:27 PM. Reason: typo
#628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Ilmater
If I were to get Decapitator, would it increase my dps to use that and put my MG Cleaver in my OH, or should I stick to using MG Cleaver in my MH and use this green lvl 70 fist weapon in my OH (it's 2.6 speed, of course)?
Do the math yourself, it's easy. (DPS of MG - DPS of Decap < 50% * (DPS of MG - DPS of green); you'll find the MG Cleaver goes thus goes in the OH by a wide margin.)
- Tornhoof's calculations (50 crit vs. 100 AP vs. 50 hit rating) use a base of 25% crit chance, 2200 AP, and 22% hit chance. WHO HAS THESE STATS???
Plenty of shamans can hit those stats in raids. BoM is good for 220 AP untalented, MotW 28 AP untalented, SoE 200 AP talented, Battleshout 305 AP untalented... meaning you only need 1447 unbuffed AP to hit 2200 buffed, and that's without Kings or any elixirs/flasks/scrolls/food, and before Unleashed Rage (I believe that Tornhoof's calculation did not include UR in the 2200 figure). I hope this result also answers the rest of your questions on this point.
- What reliable tools can I use to judge my dps? How do you test it? I'm trying to test it using recount and SWS, but they give VASTLY different results, and they're not always different in the same direction (sometimes recount is higher, sometimes it's lower), so it's hard to judge which is right.
Our DPS varies highly from encounter to encounter based on random luck on crits and WF procs, whether we're behind the mob or not (and thus being parried/blocked), our buffs, and the level of the mob, so you should expect to see variance; SWS and Recount should both be relatively accurate but all in all I prefer a good WWS parse to either one.
#629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Grundar
Hi, this is my first post here, been reading awhile. I enjoy and learn from the posts. Unfortunately I have a long way to go gear wise to get where most of you guys are.

The question on ring enchants reminded me of a something I had searched for but not found regarding meta gems.


I have pre kara gear but DW fel edged battleaxes. AP is about 800 depending on where I am and what I am doing, crit about 20% to hit gear about 5%. So I am nowhere near where you guys are and my concerns are different but I hope to have those concerns in the future.

Anyway I figure I hit about 1 time a second in combat.

That means a ring enchant would be adding 2dps each or 4 dps for 2 rings. My meta gem is +3 damage and chance of stun. I looked but could not find information on the chance of stun on this site or information on the way the +damage on this gem compares to other meta gems.

If I recall correctly about 14 AP is equal to 1 dps. Each ring enchant is equivalent to 28 ap or 14 strength. The meta gem leaving aside the stun would be 42 AP or 21 str. This seems pretty strong to me but I have not seen anything about them.

I am an enchanterer but use the +spell damage since we have not been able to get that far into kara yet.

Last edited by Grundar : 07/16/07 at 5:14 PM.
#630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Azide
I'm just under 1500 AP unbuffed. Screenshot from last night's raid shows 2323 AP. (No flasks/potions.) My crit is ~25% unbuffed, my hit is lacking but is a lower priority than other stats.

My gear is far from good (nothing SSC/TKE yet) but my point is that its easy to get a lot of AP from raid buffs.
Ignore
#631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Factor in food an an elixir or flask buff and you only need 1300 AP to reach 2200 in a raid, probably closer to 1100-1200 when Unleashed Rage and talented buffs are considered.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
I would wager that most if not all groups have DPS warriors, certainly. Who is going to battle shout the rogues? (You have those, right?). Blessing of might is another hefty chunk. If you can only get one blessing, in general I would go with might. The exception being Hydross, lootreaver, and Leo, where salv would be a must. If you are pulling agro off your tank on things like mag, karathress, tidewalker, or lurker, I would take a serious look at your tank's threat generation before questioning yourself. (Or to make it a no brainer, use a druid.).

You can and should also pick up AP buffs from food (20 STR food) and a Flask, depending on what you are raiding. You can also keep in mind that your enchants are a place to make up for lacking stats. If you need more AP, get crusader. It procs like mad on a shaman, and double procs are quite frequent. I checked the WWS from the last morogrim I did with double crusader, and I show myself gaining Holy Strength 24 times during the fight. It could be slightly higher due to refreshing procs, but that still puts it at 3 PPM. (The fight was 8 minutes.) But, I use Crusader to make up for a slightly lower (1400 ish unbuffed) AP because I have higher crit from gear (About 30%), and because I'm cheap- I specced enhance for a few weeks since we were long on healers and short on DPS. If your stats are the other way around, get mongoose.
#633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Liking the work you guys are doing with the Haste rating, definetly lots of food for thought.

The question I have, since my guild is currently working on Kael, is which legendary should I be using?

Devastation vs. the infinity blade MH. Seems like I do HORRIBLE dps with the two-hander, and almost seems worth it to just use my regular set-up (Wicked Edge/2.6 S2 Axe) or switch the wicked edge for an infinity blade. The speed boost seems useful for running from Sanguinar to Telonicus, then to Kael to interrupt that potentially lethal first fireball, as well as running to eggs. On the other hand, I'd be running slower, but doing more consistent and reilable damage.

I have heard Stig say on multiple occassions he uses Devastation, thoughts?
I use the dagger simply because the axe is the last weapon we kill whereas the dagger is generally the second. ( It's supposed to be the third but the rogues and I would rather kill the dagger than the healing mace.. >_> ) I've been really satisfied with my dps output with it. Although we're still learning the fight so I find myself throwing a ton of heals during the hectic transition from the weapons to the advisers so I lack the mana to dps at full.

Boy would I love to see the big numbers that axe could generate. Every once in a while I run around in raids with my Gorehowl out just to see big numbers, it puts a big smile on my face But that is for after we get the fight down pat.
#634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
If I am remembering the post from Stigmata correctly, he said he tried out the two hander, but that he lost at least 400+ dps using it compared to DWing.
#635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
Factor in food an an elixir or flask buff and you only need 1300 AP to reach 2200 in a raid, probably closer to 1100-1200 when Unleashed Rage and talented buffs are considered.
Yeah, Rob's post answers that question. Sorry, I completely forgot about SoE and UR, and was just looking at character sheet AP. Ridiculous. That's why I don't figure these things out for myself... keep missing things. :P
Originally Posted by Rob
Do the math yourself, it's easy. (DPS of MG - DPS of Decap < 50% * (DPS of MG - DPS of green); you'll find the MG Cleaver goes thus goes in the OH by a wide margin.)
No, it's not that easy at all... since they're the same speed, the MH should proc WF much more often, and thus its dps becomes favored. Then you have to factor in the gain from SS. I'll try to do this on my own:

169 avg dmg of green OH attack
253.5 avg dmg of MG Cleaver attack
239.5 avg dmg of Decap attack

So every SS, that's:

253.5 + 169/2 = 338
239.5 + 253.5/2 = 366.25
28.25/10 = 2.8 increased dps on SS

Increase from MG Cleaver in OH, Decap in MH: 10.85 flat dps, * some increase for flurry.

Now, given that the MH procs WF more often, that's 28 more damage every WF proc (14 average damage difference every hit, x2 hits). Since it can't possibly proc more than once every 3 seconds (obviously that's over-rated), that is less than 10 dps increase, so you're right, I'd say there's no way it could be better than Cleaver/green combo.

But I was also kind of curious how close it was, because if it's a couple of dps difference (not scalable), then I'll let someone else have it. Also, I'm wondering if I'm accounting for everything (so many freaking procs on chance with shaman that I always for get things) so I can make the same calculation for a 71.7 dps OH. Assuming my math was right above, then you would even prefer Decap/Cleaver to Cleaver/Harvester. The math comes out to 1.9 dps increase from SS, 7.5 dps from the greater added dps, and I doubt the 28 extra damage from every WF proc on the MH (and lower dps from every WF proc on the OH which I left out above), it's still a good dps increase.

So unless I missed the Decap/Cleaver combination would be prefereable to anything short of two Cleavers.
Plenty of shamans can hit those stats in raids. BoM is good for 220 AP untalented, MotW 28 AP untalented, SoE 200 AP talented, Battleshout 305 AP untalented... meaning you only need 1447 unbuffed AP to hit 2200 buffed, and that's without Kings or any elixirs/flasks/scrolls/food, and before Unleashed Rage (I believe that Tornhoof's calculation did not include UR in the 2200 figure). I hope this result also answers the rest of your questions on this point.
After adding everything out and factoring UR, I realize where I missed the ball. I was assuming that the calculation was using pre-UR calcs, and that would make a big difference.
Our DPS varies highly from encounter to encounter based on random luck on crits and WF procs, whether we're behind the mob or not (and thus being parried/blocked), our buffs, and the level of the mob, so you should expect to see variance; SWS and Recount should both be relatively accurate but all in all I prefer a good WWS parse to either one.
I keep hearing about WWS... I'll get it tonight. Hope I can figure out how to view its results.
#636SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Gwaihir
If I am remembering the post from Stigmata correctly, he said he tried out the two hander, but that he lost at least 400+ dps using it compared to DWing.
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)

With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
#637SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
If the equilibrium values include raid buffs, wouldn't that dramatically increase the value of hit relative to AP/crit? Getting over 2200 AP and 27% crit with consumables, iBS, LotP, and BoM is easy, but there's not a single class or potion that can give me more hit. No matter how I change up my gear, with a DPS warrior and a feral druid in my group I'm over equilibrium on AP and crit, and at least slightly under on hit.

The equilibrium values suggest that I should be worried most about hit for maximum raid-buffed DPS, but anecdotal evidence from other shamans on this board says otherwhise. Am I missing something?
#638SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
You don't need hit to increase your rage generation, you will only need hit to have more white damage/windfury proccs.
That are big differences from warrior (rage) and rogue (combat potency talent) points of view. It might only be more important if you can achieve a dragonspine trophy.

All three stats scale well, but attackpower gives you the best reward (check the linked thread for further details and formulas) at this certain point. You will hit over 9/10 attacks with 22% hit (including 5% dodge), but crit will help you further with flurry uptime and attackpower with manaregen from your shamanistic rage talent.

To the 2200 ap discussion, Malan added some explanation, maybe you should reread posting #1 from time to time or have a quick look at this quotation for finally clarification:

Originally Posted by Malan
But 2200 AP is a *lot*, how can I achieve that?
Well lets take a look at buffs.
  • MotW (w/o Talent) - 28 AP
  • Strength of Earth (w/ Talent) - 200 AP
  • Blessing of Might (w/o Talent) - 220 AP
  • Battleshout - 305 AP (w/o Talent)
  • Strength Food - 40 AP
  • Elixirs/Flasks - 110 AEP (Agility elixir) or 120 AP (Relentless Assault)
2200 - 28 - 200 - 22 - 305 - 40 - 110 = 1297 AP that you would need on gear, and this isn't even accounting for unleashed rage! Its not hard to achieve 2200 AP in a raid, and once you factor in Unleashed Rage, Blessing of Kings and people putting talents points into these buffs, you will easily exceed 2200 AP.

That said, Shaman need all stats in as large of quantities as possible. The above is not a rule, there are no magical numbers that we can point to of "you need this much hit/crit/AP." You need lots of each, probably more Crit than Hit according to models, but still lots of each.

Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. Reference this thread around pages 12-14-ish for discussion of hit rating. Many of us are running with significantly lower levels of hit rating and seeing very large DPS gains.
#639SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
They don't suggest you should be worried about Hit at all, the complete opposite in fact.

Oh and as for the quote above, I only just added that this afternoon after this page of discussion came up.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#640SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
Ah, just read your last edit was yesterday, didn't realised it's right after midnight here.

But i've got two another questions:
1. Doesn't that difference between hwl cleaver and feb does result only from the non-existing speed normalisation on several instant attacks, does it?

138-207 dmg (172 avg) High Warlord Cleaver
128-239 dmg (183 avg) Fel Edged Battleaxe

2. I'm confused about that (maybe i missed the discussion in this or the other thread about it?) passage:
Originally Posted by Malan
But what about Main Hands and Off Hands in Black Temply/Hyjal that are 2.7 and 2.8 speed?
Jury is still out on the most effective way to place a 2.7 and 2.8 in your MH/OH (especially if you still have a 2.6 in the other hand) and I'll update when we have more conclusive evidence. For now, go test it yourself!
Should'nt we use them on the offhand instead of the mainhand? The slower your offhand is, the smaller is the chance to consume your mainhand windfury charge. The upgrade to a [Rising Tide] is only 2 dps, but your mainhand should only have 2.6 (arena) or 2.7 (blacksmith) speed. Or is this only true for the procc of [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and you missed out the axe?

Last edited by Myul : 07/16/07 at 5:47 PM. Reason: grammar
#641SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
No, it's not that easy at all... since they're the same speed, the MH should proc WF much more often, and thus its dps becomes favored. Then you have to factor in the gain from SS. I'll try to do this on my own:

169 avg dmg of green OH attack
253.5 avg dmg of MG Cleaver attack
239.5 avg dmg of Decap attack

So every SS, that's:

253.5 + 169/2 = 338
239.5 + 253.5/2 = 366.25
28.25/10 = 2.8 increased dps on SS

Increase from MG Cleaver in OH, Decap in MH: 10.85 flat dps, * some increase for flurry.
If Decap MH + Cleaver OH is better on white DPS it will also always be favored for yellow DPS -- there's no reason why the MH will proc WF much more often -- you said yourself that they're the same speed. Similarly, if Decap MH + Cleaver OH is a bigger pair of white swings than Cleaver MH + Green OH, it will always be a bigger pair of yellow swings (Stormstrike). See why it's easy now?
Originally Posted by Lujaar
If the equilibrium values include raid buffs, wouldn't that dramatically increase the value of hit relative to AP/crit? Getting over 2200 AP and 27% crit with consumables, iBS, LotP, and BoM is easy, but there's not a single class or potion that can give me more hit. No matter how I change up my gear, with a DPS warrior and a feral druid in my group I'm over equilibrium on AP and crit, and at least slightly under on hit.

The equilibrium values suggest that I should be worried most about hit for maximum raid-buffed DPS, but anecdotal evidence from other shamans on this board says otherwhise. Am I missing something?
They are not "equilibrium" values, they are values at which the formula 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating holds true. So, no, hit is not dramatically increased in value relative to AP/crit.
#642SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Myul
Should'nt we use them on the offhand instead of the mainhand? The slower your offhand is, the smaller is the chance to consume your mainhand windfury charge. The upgrade to a [Rising Tide] is only 2 dps, but your mainhand should only have 2.6 (arena) or 2.7 (blacksmith) speed. Or is this only true for the procc of [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and you missed out the axe?
As Malan said, the jury's still out -- nobody's yet developed a convincing closed-form model, and nobody's tested this in practice. If you'd like to simulate this, you can download the Java sim and try it yourself.
#643SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I really need a better way of wording that whole "equilibrium" bit, I don't think the point of the values is really explained very well.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#644SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Mmm maybe Im missing out on something here, but wouldnt 2 x Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft be the weapon combination to go for in BT content, outperforming the combo with Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft as mh?
#645SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)

With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
I assume you're using the dagger offhand then?
#646SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
Originally Posted by Leachim
Mmm maybe Im missing out on something here, but wouldnt 2 x Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft be the weapon combination to go for in BT content, outperforming the combo with Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft as mh?
The axe has better stats in my opinion (allmost 2% hit and a bunch of stamina), which you might also want to weight into your comparison. For you, as an orc shaman, your racial with +5 axe weapon skill comes into account, to.
It should really depend on the ppm of the mace weapon procc (it's only 120 damage per applying, not counting resists).
We could really need some data mining from Stigmata, Sebudai or another fast progressing shaman or fury warrrior here. Eg can two proccs stack like lifesteal enchant?

The mace should be harder to get (rogues could also want it, but the axe it not really interesting for hunters).

I guess, your upgrade from an arena weapon to the axe on your mainhand might be noticeable, but shouldn't be a clear jump. "Upgrading" from a blacksmith weapon to the axe could be a downgrade in the worst case (losing 0.1 attack speed). But i think, from our knowledge point nowadays, the mace should allways be superior in your offhand then the axe and any other choice do.

Is a combination of 2.8/2.8 really better then 2.6/2.8 regarding stealing wf proccs from your mainhand will need further ingame testing (or java simulations, but those data should be taken carefully).
Chosing between weapons with same statpoints would be an easy decision (the slower one of course!), but in this special situation, it will really depend on the mace procc.

Last edited by Myul : 07/16/07 at 7:07 PM. Reason: typo
#647SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
Sorry if this has been posted already, but has an analysis of the Crystalforged Trinket been done? Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft
#648SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Correct, I dont use the 2 hander other than for about 1 or 2 mionutes for the run speed buff while pinging about between adds/weapons (and to see 10k instant damage is always amusing.)

With the bow debuff and DW'ing the damage output is insane, waiting for 2+ seconds between attacks is horrible in my opinion, so using the 2 hander is not an option.
Who wants to start a petition to change the 1h sword into a mace :P

Originally Posted by Beowolf
Sorry if this has been posted already, but has an analysis of the Crystalforged Trinket been done? Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft
Do a search instead of being sorry :P [Shaman] Itemizing Enhancement at 70

Also, something amusing but completely unrelated: last Lurker, my crit rate for white damage and Windfury were 33% and 32%. For Stormstrike it was 18%.
#649SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Azaranth
I assume you're using the dagger offhand then?
No, my dagger skill is like 320ish so I stick with my normal weapons.

Originally Posted by Myul
We could really need some data mining from Stigmata, Sebudai or another fast progressing shaman or fury warrrior here. Eg can two proccs stack like lifesteal enchant?
Getting the weapon first would be nice :p
#650SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Maltesers
Been in the same boat with deciding between 2x syphon, or a rising tide mh with syphon oh. I attempted to run the sim a little while ago to help decide, here are the results I got:

------------------------------------ ESCS -------- RISING TIDE 2.6 and SYPHON 2.8
-- INPUT DATA --
Player AP=2400, H=28.0%, C=30.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=208-313/2.6s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA --
MH Wh: Swings=169292 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(25.0%), C=(29.9%), H=(38.6%)
OH Wh: Swings=156901 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(30.0%), H=(38.6%)
MH WF: Swings= 70228 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(29.8%), H=(63.8%)
OH WF: Swings= 58632 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.7%), G=(never), C=(30.0%), H=(63.3%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(29.8%), H=(63.8%)
OH SS: Swings= 33702 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.3%), G=(never), C=(30.0%), H=(63.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 327636547 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.0%) | G=(16%)[378-464], C=(51%)[1007-1237], H=(33%)[503-619]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.5%) | G=(16%)[195-258], C=(51%)[521-688], H=(33%)[260- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.9%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[1600-1922], H=(52%)[800-961]
OH WF: Dmg=(11.9%) | G=(never), C=(49%)[934-1167], H=(51%)[467-584]
MH SS: Dmg=(07.8%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[1007-1237], H=(52%)[503-619]
OH SS: Dmg=(04.0%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[521-688], H=(52%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings: MH=80.5%, OH=80.4%

DPS = 910.1

------------------------------------ ESCS ------ AND SYPHON 2.8 with SYPHON 2.8
-- INPUT DATA --
Player AP=2400, H=28.0%, C=30.0%, Haste=0.0%. SScooldown=10.0s
Player Weapons: MH=196-365/2.8s, OH=196-365/2.8s
Monster Level=73, Armor Mitigation=30.0%
Combat duration: 360000 seconds

-- SWING OUTPUT DATA --
MH Wh: Swings=161203 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(24.9%), C=(30.0%), H=(38.5%)
OH Wh: Swings=161203 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.5%), G=(24.9%), C=(30.1%), H=(38.5%)
MH WF: Swings= 64608 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.6%), G=(never), C=(30.1%), H=(63.3%)
OH WF: Swings= 60434 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.3%), G=(never), C=(29.8%), H=(63.8%)
MH SS: Swings= 35992 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.3%), G=(never), C=(30.3%), H=(63.4%)
OH SS: Swings= 33719 | M=(0.0%), D=(6.4%), G=(never), C=(29.9%), H=(63.7%)

-- DAMAGE OUTPUT DATA: 334966267 Total --
MH Wh: Dmg=(35.1%) | G=(16%)[391-516], C=(51%)[1041-1375], H=(33%)[521-688]
OH Wh: Dmg=(17.6%) | G=(16%)[196-258], C=(51%)[521-688], H=(33%)[260- 344]
MH WF: Dmg=(23.2%) | G=(never), C=(49%)[1664-2130], H=(51%)[831-1065]
OH WF: Dmg=(12.0%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[934-1167], H=(52%)[467-584]
MH SS: Dmg=(08.3%) | G=(never), C=(49%)[1042-1375], H=(51%)[521-688]
OH SS: Dmg=(03.9%) | G=(never), C=(48%)[521-688], H=(52%)[260-344]

Flurried white swings: MH=88.9%, OH=88.9%

DPS = 930.5
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously this doesn't take in to account the syphon's proc but at least from this data syphon came out above regardless.

Last edited by Maltesers : 07/17/07 at 3:38 AM.
#421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan
Stigmata - I've been severely threat capped on Void Reaver and Morogrim recently. Although on Void Reaver its mostly a "I think I might be capped" since no threat meter is accurately calculating the knockback yet. At around 50% though it just feels pretty dangerous. 2-3 weeks ago I was sitting just under the tanks on the meter and a rogue who was listed as 40k under me suddenly got spattered by Void Reaver, followed by the Fury Warrior who was also below me. That left me in a scary place. :;

Do you use KTM on Void Reaver or Omen? I haven't given Omen a shot yet but last night against Void Reaver I was #1 on KTM from about 40% -> 0% and I was waiting for him to hit me and kill me just so I could ankh, but it never happened. I've just stopped worrying about agro on Void Reaver as KTM is never right, heh.
#422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've used both Omen and KTM, neither are anywhere near being accurate on that fight.

Stigmata - there may be others, I've only just started getting into deep SSC with my new guild and we're starting on the rest of TK soon so we'll see how that goes. Those are just 2 fights in recent memory that I know for sure I am capable of ripping aggro pretty early in the fight, I'm sure there are others that I could do the same if I used a few more consumables (heroic/haste pots, drums).
#423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leachim
Yes, Void Reaver and Morogrim are encounters where threat for shamans is indeed an issue. And yes its always good to try to maximise your dps. But again I say encounters like that arent about dps, thats why blizzard made them so agro-sensitive. Furthermore, if were talking about morogrim and voidwalker were talking about 2 very easy encounters who dont require much effort at all (hes called Loot Reaver for a reason)... Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
Id be curious what the difference in your damageoutput is between a Morogrim kill where you suicide-ankh and one where you go fullout but keep your agro always just below that of the mt (getting watertombed is a great way of agro-reduction anyways). Is it realy worth the hassle?

I just get the feeling that some of the posts here claim that suicide-ankhing should be considered a 'standard procedure' for enhancement-dps, where imo its only suitable for a very limited number of encounters and even then it can hardly be labled as required.
#424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Well VR is one on its own, no other fights are like that, and similar to you other people below me on threat have ripped, but saying your threat capped for 1 or 2 boss fights out of 20-30 isn't really a fair reflection on the class as a whole.

Morogrim is a funny one, the tank gets a attack slowing affect, and I'm always close, but no more so that the rogues/dps warriors, to an extent the rogues even more, the best rogue can vanish and still get back to the top of the threat meters in no time, especially when he is churning out 1600-1800 dps.
I was pretty seriously threat capped on both Essence of Desire and Essence of Anger. When you put out a single WF crit of 5410 on Anger, it's pretty easy to see how. Likewise in Hyjal there are a lot of low armor bosses, Winterchill, Anetheron, Kazrogal and Archimonde are killer melee fights. I've had aggro issues on Anetheron, and I'd have issues on Archimonde except for the luck I've had with having to avoid shitty melee doomfires and air bursts at the same time as fear keeping me out of range of my tremor. The next cloak I get is getting subtelty, and I'm praying for a Prism of Inner Calm to drop.
#425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Erongg
Its like totemweaving: sure its 'a way' to impriove your dps a little, but why bother?
I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on swapping WF/GOA or WF/Tranq (on threat limited fights). In principle it sounds great - how does it work in practice? Does anyone do it consistently in pretty much every fight? How do you manage your global cooldowns? How does it affect your own DPS? How annoying is it to keep up, and do you use any macros to help?

The upside to totem swapping is pretty great, so I'm curious about people's experiences with it.
#426SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Its discussed on page 14 of this thread.
#427SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
On a fight like Void Reaver you definitely do not want to be holding back a lot. This is something we learned back when we were working on Broodlord Lashlayer. Being more careful with your threat and thus killing the mob slower will just ensure that someone pulls aggro and dies, probably mutiple someone's.

Knock Away effects like VR's are percentage based, so the higher your tanks threat is, the more threat he loses each time he gets hit by Knock Away. What this means is eventually the threat of your tanks will plateau, and if the mob is still alive at this point you are about to have a bunch of people overaggro and die. The best way to not overaggro on VR is to kick the shit out of him before this happens.

Normally on Void Reaver I go all out, including haste pots etc, sustaining 1000+ dps for the duration of the fight. Sometimes I'll pull aggro around 10%, but I am certain this wouldn't happen if other people were doing slightly more damage instead of worrying about aggro, because if I can go all out for 90% of the fight without overaggroing, every other class can go all out the entire time.
#428SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
For void reaver, are people putting an enh shaman into the MT group for WF/UR? Our tank group usually has 3 warriors in it, and I'm thinking it might be more worthwhile for the tanks to get WF given that threat is all wacky. Another thing about VR I haven't had a chance to test yet, are tauren at the edge of melee range counted as melee threat or ranged threat? I routinely sit outside pounding but inside melee range.
#429SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Melee are good on VR so you want your enhancement shaman with the melee group. However, you definitely want to put a resto shaman in the tank group because Windfury is especially good against mobs that require multiple tanks.

Normally the MT doesn't benefit a whole lot from Windfury Totem because they will have a lot of rage(in some cases infinite rage) just from being hit by the mob. On VR you're going to have a couple of tanks that aren't currently being attacked, so the extra rage from Windfury is much more noticable to them.

As far as I know Tauren at max melee range are still considered in melee range. Also, be careful with outranging the Pounding, because he can target you with an Arcane Orb there.
#430SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
A question about hit rating:

So according to the formula, 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR. Does that always apply, or does that only apply if your % hit chance is at a high level?

The reason I ask is, I used a lot of Glinting Noble Topaz in my gear to get my hit rating up to the 204 it is now. The formula noted for those calculations was with a 22% hit chance, and I'm at that right now (9% from talents, ~13% from hit rating, so roughly 22% hit). Should I instead go back and socket with +8 STR or +4 CR/+4 STR?

I was always under the impression that I should focus on hit rating UNTIL I got to 200+ hit rating, but this seems to suggest that's incorrect.
#431SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
#432SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes, remove all your +Hit gems. Hit is not nearly as important as we thought.

I'll be editing the original post a bit later when I have more time.
That's just mind-boggling. It seems that since you get 1% hit increase from only 16 points of hit rating (thus more chances to proc WF) vs. 1% crit increase from 22 points of crit rating, that hit rating would indeed make a bigger difference until you got to the cap. Apparently I was wrong.

Also, I'm assuming Agility would be valued simply at 25/22 on that scale, correct? So:

1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.13 AGI = 1.43 HR

Is that right?

Last edited by Ilmater : 07/10/07 at 2:57 PM.
#433SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Originally Posted by Stigmata
25.5% is the hit cap against level 73 mobs.

As for what amount of hit to use, I'm still at 190ish + 9% from talents, others use way less, I'm comfortable with my present amount, and although I am tempted to drop more, I can't convince myself to do so...yet.
I'm about the same as Stigmata, running 200 with my current boots, waiting to get Rapscallion enchanted before switching to them which will drop me to 183 Hit. I just can't seem to force myself any lower then 180 and feel good about it.
#434SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Aeolian
I'm about the same as Stigmata, running 200 with my current boots, waiting to get Rapscallion enchanted before switching to them which will drop me to 183 Hit. I just can't seem to force myself any lower then 180 and feel good about it.
Stig also runs with tsunami/dragonstrike, so hit would be pretty important for procs as well no?
#435SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
- 5 minutes = 300 Seconds
- 2 second swing = 150 swings * 2 = 300 (assuming 2.6 second weapons but sped up a bit to around 2 on average for various reasons - to go more detailed would require a proper simulation)
- Average value of a swing = 350 hit/800 crit -> 2 hits per crit ~ 1500/3 swings
- 3% of 300 swings is 9 swings -> 4500 white damage -> almost 2 solid chances at a WF -> assume 2 crit 2 non crit on - average of 600 and 1200 = 3600 (this is high end assuming high chance of crit and 2 windfurys)

3% hit over 300 swings (150 per hand) =~ 8100 with VERY favorable conditions.

Earth Shock:

(From looking at a couple parses with my stats)
- 850 average non crit shock, 1000 on crit (these weighted slightly lower then average)
- 5% less damage would be 808 and 950? (I'm not sure how the 5% multiplier works on crits)

- 300 seconds untalented = 50 shocks
- 5% of 50 for crit is 2.5 -> assume 3
- 47 shocks, 3 crit untalented
- 83% base spell hit +3% from resto on a 73 mob -> 43 shocks
- Assume all 3 of our crit shocks crit.
- 40 shocks, 3 crit untalented with hit chance calculated

- 300 seconds talented = 60 shocks
- 5% of 60 for crit is 3
- 57 shocks, 3 crit talented
- 83% base spell hit on 73 -> 49.8 shocks
- 46 shocks, 3 crit talented

- Damage difference is 40*(850-808)+3*(1000-950)+6*850 = 6930


Now, this is assuming a 5 minute uninterrupted period under optimimum conditions.

- 300 white swings across both hands assuming optimimum windfury procs in the difference period.
- 50-60 Shocks by using every cooldown.

So optimum here is at about:
-- 60 swings/minute
-- 12 shocks/minute (5s), 10 shocks/minute (6s)


So here's the interesting part -

The closest high dps uptime fight I can think of off the top of my head is probably Morogrim or Void Reaver, so I grabbed the top EJ parses and took Shabadu as an example:

Morogrim: 342s presence (5.7m)
- 262 white swings (45.96 swings/min)
- 22 shocks (3.86 shocks/min)

Void Reaver: 298s presence (4.97m)
- 203 white swings (40.85 swings/min)
- 29 shocks (5.84 shocks/min)


This tells us that cooldown isn't necessarily an issue as much as either threat or other such conditions. Or it's just really hard to maintain a full shock uptime. My own numbers for fights aren't nearly as good on uptime as Shabadu's are, so I need to work on that, or wait till my tanks build aggro a bit faster.

I'm still thinking this needs more analysis, as the amount of extra damage from the shocks, along with the faster cooldown when you have limited dps windows can make a significant difference I imagine. Also, there are at least a couple fights where I'm on interrupt duty and it's made a noticeable difference.

Anyway I have some work to do, so if someone wants to tear this stuff apart a bit more (as msot of these numbers are pulled out of my nether regions), please do. This topic needs more discussion then off the cuff "resto is better because +hit", that's the same path people went down when we first got DW for gear in general. My main view right now is elemental hybrid is better up to a certain gear point, and then the 3% hit will win out from a dps standpoint over extended fights due to AP difference. Where that breakpoint is is the question. Elemental is a flat 140+ dps if used consistantly, but will never scale upwards with enh gear.
#726SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#727SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
berg
Edit: Removed some unsupportable data.

Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade.

Which sim used is irrelvant I am sure they all have code like this

If (ssCD < ssDelay) // ssDelay usually 10.0, ssCD is time since last ss.
{
//reset ssCD
//do the swings.
}

turn this into
if (ssCD < ssDelay)
{
if (bWfCd == false) // add this line with whatever var they are using to track the wfcd.
{
//reset cd
// do the swings
}
}

and rerun the sims. Then everyone can use whatever sim they prefer. I think they would all show a greater than 1% gain just by waiting for the cooldown to expire every time.

Last edited by berg : 07/20/07 at 1:33 PM.
#728SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
I've lost a bit of steam... the problem with flurry makes me think that it's a pointless exercise. Until I have a good model for that, I'm pretty much disgusted with the whole thing.

I only like models where I can test game against reality and say "look, they match!"

edit - Berg - if you have a whole armory, including talents, how well does your sim match actual dps tests? If you know something I don't, I'm all ears.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue
Disquette - shaman
#729SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nanahanna
I'm looking for a few opinions here. There has been an argument between a few members in my guild over twisting GoA and WF totems or keeping WF down in melee heavy groups. One side says the DPS gained from buffing the party by twisting overweighs the gains of a full shock rotation and holding SS for the WF cooldown, the other side says the opposite is more total DPS. I'm leaning more towards a full shock rotation & waiting for the WF cooldown. Anyone dug deep into this?
#730SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important
- it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing
- watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently.

I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#731SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Knocksville
Originally Posted by Malan
I tried this out using some of the macros people had posted last week. I wasn't even in combat, just sitting in Shattrath dropping totems. I gave it about 5 minutes of use before I concluded that:
- it requires a lot of concentration on a button in your UI instead of whats going on the game world, which is probably a lot more important
- it used a hell of a lot of mana which means no emergency healing
- watching the WF buff on my weapon I noticed that unless you drop the WF totem earlier than the 9 seconds it lasts on the weapon that you ran the risk of the buff running off someone and missing an opportunity for a proc while you were refreshing the totem. If you're late on the drop, or have a decent amount of latency, you could have this happen quite frequently.

I didn't give it a lot of testing time, and didn't even try it in combat, but to me it personally felt incredibly clunky and took my attention away from anything other than the macro. Not something I'll be doing in a raid.
It is entirely possible to have 100% WF uptime and ~90% GoA uptime if your macro is bound with stormstrike (cast sequence SS - WF - GoA, spammed heavily). Use WF rank 1 if you can't sustain a higher rank, the benefit of simultaneous GoA is greater than the increase in AP on only WF procs, especially for yourself and if you have a feral druid DPSing in your group (with 34.44% unbuffed crit, 55+% crit is attainable for me with double goose, LoTP, and GoA).

If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC).

__________________
Male Enhancement.

Last edited by Knocksville : 07/20/07 at 2:16 PM.
#732SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Knocksville
It is entirely possible to have 100% WF uptime and ~90% GoA uptime if your macro is bound with stormstrike (cast sequence SS - WF - GoA, spammed heavily). Use WF rank 1 if you can't sustain a higher rank, the benefit of simultaneous GoA is greater than the increase in AP on only WF procs, especially for yourself and if you have a feral druid DPSing in your group (with 34.44% unbuffed crit, 55+% crit is attainable for me with double goose, LoTP, and GoA).

If you check my armory, note that I have a Shattrath flask on but it is not affecting my stats (I'm logged outside of Hyjal/BT/TK/SSC).
So do people actually try this in raids? I can't imagine trying to do totem twisting on any encounters that require decent mobility and interrupting from shocks. If anyone has had success with it, I'd like to know.
#733SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
I've been totem cycling during raids, it's quite simple with castsequence macro (/castsequence reset=10, Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem). Sustaining shocks is nearly impossible unless you get JoW on your target. You can do a shock once per "rotation" of totems until you've used your first rage, then you have to stick to stormstrike and totems almost exclusively, the 2 minutes feels like an eternity when you're dropping mana that fast. I would definitely say it's worth it to totem cycle, it's a definite dps loss (~6% if you count the GoA you are gaining) but the additional agility for your group outweighs your small margin of dps loss.
#734SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Knocksville
It is only really effective in situations where the following parameters are met:

1. You aren't moving, and if you are, it isn't very far.
2. You have extremely high DPS rogues in your group.
3. You need to burn something down.
4. The fight doesn't punish you for having low mana.

I run the SS-WF-GoA macro on Teron Gorefiend where, unless I get ghosted, my job is to stand there and DPS. WWS for Teron in which no DPS classes had to kill constructs.

__________________
Male Enhancement.
#735SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaladian
Originally Posted by Malan
Upgrading your off hand is a huge huge deal. Your DPS will increase by leaps and bounds by using the season 2 arena weapons in your OH.
Glad to read this because i was planning to make Drakefist MH and S2(2.6) axe OH. It is very hard to think of putting the higher DPS weapon in my OH vs the T2 drakemaw hammer in your MH. Shaman are in the same position hunters were before and somewhat still slower is just always better.
#736SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
Although it took a bit getting used to, totemweaving has become second nature to me. I totemweave WF & GoA all the time now even in 5 mans. I have the macro set up independent of my SS however and I like it that way. I've also found weaving WF & TA helpful when beginning a fight or to help lower the TPS of my group if they're getting too high.

Although I have a general idea of when I need to recycle the totems, I'm going to try and set up a custom timer using the Ace2 mod Quartz. I already use it as a castbar and GCD timer.

Depending on the fight, I'm also finding that I need to be more conservative with my shocks but most of the time, a SR + mana pot is enough to keep me going. Talents to reduce mana cost on totems is a must (Mental quickness & Totemic Focus). My biggest concern right now is sometimes the totem cycling coincides exactly with my SS CD and GCD screws me into either delaying my SS or delaying the totem cycle. I wish totems were on a seperate GCD or had no GCD at all.

I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
#737SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Corripio
I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
I was going to post this exact sentiment earlier but figured I'd be accused of beating a dead horse. They really cannot have intended people to do this type of totem stacking given how the totem elements work.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#738SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Corripio
I hope blizzard doesn't catch wind of this and nerf it. They put WF and GoA on the same totem for a reason.
Well, it's a possible mechanics bug that works in the favor of the player, so we can expect a fix sooner rather than later probably.
#739SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Areus
I have been toying around with using the Totem Twisting method for my 2 rogue, 1 arms, feral druid group, and they love it. Malan, in order to not have WF expire change the text in the Macro that was posted here to "reset=8" instead of the default 9 that was originally listed in the post.

I did the same trials in Shat that you mentioned and that was an issue that I noticed as well. It really does not take as much concentration to Twist as you think. You get into a mindset after about a week and it becomes natural about knowing when you click the Twisting Macro twice to relay the totems.

I ussually run with 8.7k Mana buffed, and in order to sustain this the order I use is WF->GoA -> SS -> FS. By using Flame Shock it lowers the mana requirement cause it is only required every 12 seconds. If I get down to 1/4 mana and have no UR or Pot timer up, I just resort to the totem twist and SS until one timer comes up. If you can convince your paladins to keep JoW up on the Mob, mana will almost never be an issue.
#740SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
I was using a SS->WF->GoA cycle and that was just not working for me since it was dependent on getting that SS off before the rest of the cycle. I think I'll try switching to a WF->GoA->SS cycle, or WF->SS->GoA. Overall tho, I hate doing it. I find it hard to focus on what's going on around me when I'm stressing over making sure the totems go down when they have to. I'm mostly hoping it gets "fixed" so I don't feel guilty for not doing it.
#741SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hyan
Where would I go about finding the simulator to check what items optimize my dps?
#742SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
The first post of this very thread.
#743SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Locovaca
Im curious as to peoples thoughts on the effect of using a higher dps, fast weapon with another weapon buff in the offhand.

At some point, Slow/Fast(Purple) WF/FT has to be better than Slow/Slow(green) WF/WF.

I know the OP says to move to an AH green rather than an epic dagger, but I find it hard to believe that the dps difference cant be made up by sheer DPS on the offhand with Flametongue helping as well. Not to mention the MH will now be unencumbered by off hand WFs...
#744SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gwaihir
I think we are starting to get to the point of going in endless circles with this post. There are only so many times that someone can do the math on fast offhands with our horrible imbues like FT and rockbiter- It's already been tested in the numerous other threads that gave birth to this one, and the answer is still WF/WF with slow weapons.
#745SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
I think people who say "I use Flametongue because my dagger is fast!" don't really understand how Flametongue works.
#746SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.

I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested.
#747SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dakashi
Originally Posted by Malan
Disquette et al - is it possible to modify these simulations to model the 2 stormstrike methods? (hit when lit vs save till after WF CD)
I downloaded Pater's java sim, and changed the lines that fired off SS to the following:

		
if (t >= SSLastT + SS_COOLDOWN_DURATION) {
    if(SPAM_SS || !(t < WFLastT + WF_COOLDOWN_DURATION)) {
        Stormstrike();
        UpdateStats();
    }
}
Then I made a SPAM_SS constant, which can be true or false. If it's true, it SS's whenever it's lit. If it's false, it waits until WF is off cooldown.

I used the standard stats that come with the Java sim, and the standard equipment (gladiator OH, Decapitator MH). All I changed was the SS latency to 10.5 for a little more realism.

I ran a few sims, and my results were:

Spamming SS whenever it's lit: Avg DPS = 772
Waiting on SS until WF is off cooldown: Avg DPS = 791

So, according to Pater's sim (which, by the way, is pretty sweet), waiting for WF to be up before firing SS seems to be a decent DPS increase. Would be interesting to see if this is true in real life as well.

__________________
The world can't end today because it's tomorrow in Australia
#748SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Corripio
Originally Posted by oogg
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.
There is probably only 1 fight that I can think of where I'd actually need to do this - void reaver. In other cases, our tank has enough TPS where I will never catch up to him. And on void reaver, its a 100% agro wipe to battle anhk so you can continue to go full steam on it.
#749SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by oogg
Thank you all for a sane discussion and an excellent collection of valuable enhancement shaman information.

After reading 30 pages, I have noticed that there is no mention of down shifting. Twisting is mentioned (TA & WF), but I think down shifting is also a useful tactic instead of dying to wipe aggro.

Down shifting - Changing weapons/items in the main hand, off hand, or both so as to achieve a reduction in aggro, but not lose the benefits of buffs from talent and item procs.

An example is to equip [Blackout Truncheon] in your off hand to dramatically decrease your DPS while still keeping UR and totems down for the group. Not only does it seem like a more realistic solution than suicide-ankh, it maintains the synergy of the raid and allows you to shed hate. Granted, it is at the cost of personal DPS, but you can just as easily up shift back to the slow offhand when your aggro cools off.

I realize this is a tactic and not a further exploration or clarification of mechanics or itemization, but it is a tactic only possible by the existence of many of the mechanics that you have theorized and tested.
If you need to drop aggro and "shaman vanish" isn't a reasonable option, you're much better off to stop shocking than to reduce your melee DPS, due to the 15% threat reduction from Spirit Weapons. Ankhing up is quite reasonable on Void Reaver which is really the only fight where this is a severe problem. (Hydross is very aggro-sensitive too, but that's because of the constant drops... I don't see weapon swapping as effective there.)
#750SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg
Long story short though you do gain dps by waiting for the cooldown to fade.
On what are you basing this? waiting for up to 2.9 seconds in bettween each stormstrike _CANNOT_ possibly be better, without doing the nunbers each second you have to wait is 10% longer time in between your SS, over a long fight that is massive.
#751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stander
Originally Posted by Corripio
There is probably only 1 fight that I can think of where I'd actually need to do this - void reaver. In other cases, our tank has enough TPS where I will never catch up to him. And on void reaver, its a 100% agro wipe to battle anhk so you can continue to go full steam on it.
The problem I find with Battle Anhking is that you lose all your buffs which for me is like 800 AP which pretty much gimps my dps hardcore for the rest of the fight. Downgrading looks great, never thought of it.
#752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?
#753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Back to the totem twisting, I use this macro:
MACRO 16777255 "AGI" INV_Misc_QuestionMark
/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
END
-Question mark icon helps a lot, the icon of the macro will be replaced to the spell what's next
-reset=8 helps to put down windfury in time (before the effect goes off from the weapons) but it works only if you don't spam the macro. It resets only after 8 seconds of the last push.
-If I can't use stormstrike in time I press "alt" and the hotkey of the macro so I skip a stormstrike and jump to the first spell: Windfury Totem

This works quite well for me, I've been using this for like two weeks. My melee group is very happy and it is an upgrade to my party's dps, though my dps goes lower. Of course I can't use totem wtisting on every fight, but there are quite a lot where it's a big boost.
Malan: if you keep spamming this macro and you can cast stormstrike every time it has cooled down the wf effect will be always up on the weapons of your group, I tested it and it's working fine.
#754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3syrixx
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
#755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Originally Posted by syrixx
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
1 Strength is 2 AP without buffs, so for points considered, Strength will be considered double as valuable as AP. It makes absolutely no sense for strength to be half value for AP. I think you might have been thinking in reverse in terms of math.
#756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zure
Originally Posted by syrixx
I have been looking at the Lootzor links that people have come up with for enhancement shaman, and many of them seem to be wrong to me. Shouldn’t strength be half the value of attack power? Shouldn’t agility be .884 compared to 1.0 crit rating(25agi=22.1cr)?

A.
1.0(CR) 0.7(HiR) 0.5(AP)
So would that mean also that> .25(STR), 0.884(AGI) ?

B.
1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 HR = 0.9 HasteRating
1.0(CR) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)
So would that mean also that> 0.884*(AGI) ?

So putting these on top of each other to make them easier to compare>
A. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) .25(STR) 0.5(AP) 0.7(HiR) ??(HaR)
B. 1.0(CR) 0.884(AGI) 1.0(STR) 2.0(AP) 1.43(HiR) .9(HaR)

So which is right, A or B?

I could be completely wrong about all of this, but if I am right then could we please update the first page? Lootzor doesn’t allow me to enter haste rating, is there something else I could use to find gear based on the above values?

Thanks in advance!
Just offhand, STR can be modified by Kings, AP can't. If you haven't included that, I'm sure there are 100 other variables that are also left out of these formulae.
#757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Pretty much, after modified by kings, you only need 22 effective agility (24.2 after) to almost reach 25 actual agility. As a result, its easier to view 1 agi as 1 crit rating. If you want to be really precise, its slightly worse
#758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3syrixx
No I hadn't thought about kings, and yes I got my str/ap backwards. Thank you

__________________
#759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by rava
Out of curiosity, does anyone happen to know if dodge/miss/parry/crit/hit/block/glance are all calculated at the same time, or are they all independent of each other?

The answer is: Attacktable, that means for non special attacks they are all dependent.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
Originally Posted by Stander
The problem I find with Battle Anhking is that you lose all your buffs which for me is like 800 AP which pretty much gimps my dps hardcore for the rest of the fight. Downgrading looks great, never thought of it.
First time posting heh. Our first VR kill last night, first night of us wholeheartedly attempting him, seemed people had issues dodging giant balls of electricity our actual first night :P

With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals.

Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro.

Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents
#761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
On VR I hold back shocks and Shamanistic Rage for the first 30 to 60 seconds, then go all-out; last time I popped heroism at like 20%, pulled aggro at 10%, died, ankhed up and finished it off. Besides 1 prot warrior we used 2 ferals, which helps IMO, they have better threat gen when they don't have aggro since they do more white damage. Parse if anyone cares.
#762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Serrano
First of all I must say reading this thread has been very interesting... all the discussion of weaponspeed now lead to this question:

My weapons at the time are Black Planar Edge (2.7 attackspeed)in the MH and the Season2 Arena weapon (2.6) in the OH. Today I got myself the Mace "Fool´s bane" (2.6) from Illhoof and now I am wondering if the 4 dps deficit to my Black Planar Edge is compensated by the 2.6 attackspeed which better matches my OH so my MH WF proccs are not eaten by my OH. Or is the little slower attackspeed of my MH of no importance and I have leveled blacksmithing for a reason?

Please let me know what you think...
#763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zure
Originally Posted by Hulkling
First time posting heh. Our first VR kill last night, first night of us wholeheartedly attempting him, seemed people had issues dodging giant balls of electricity our actual first night :P

With the tank threat on that fight, I swapped to rockbiter just to see if it made a difference. While I had windfury up, I hit the threat cap very rapidly and jsut stood there. Rockbiter seemed to work better because not only could I control my threat generation to a much finer degree, but I was able to just keep swinging if for nothing else than the Light heals.

Horrible threat cap on that fight, but that is how I crept around it. I believe i swapped my offhand to windfury midfight to get more light procs, but eventually threat was too much, and had to battle ankh just to stay alive (ironic huh), swapped windfury on both weapons, and went balls out till he died without pulling agro.

Seemed that maximizing my damage only maximized my threat. Figured I'd throw in my two cents
Wouldn't it make much more sense to either:

a) sub in some arcane resist gear,
b) periodically drop a few heals (terokk's gavel!),
c) twist WF/Tranq Air

and continue to use optimal weapon imbues?

This way you add some extra value while keeping your dps at its maximum.
#764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
On VR I:
1) Pull aggro
2) Put on my shield
3) Dodge, dodge (double Mongoose)
4) Eat the knockback for a free deaggro!
#765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
I've managed to do that with Gruul, but not Void Reaver, yet. Just stopped attacking on Gruul when I reached 2nd aggro, dodged 4 hateful strikes before the next warrior in line caught up. Void Reaver I usually just "vanish" and keep going after. Our Paladins are pretty good about rebuffs, especially Salvation on myself and our Elemental shaman.

__________________
~ Aeo - Level 70 Draenei Shaman ~
~ Guild: Reclaimed / Realm: Skywall ~
#766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Why would you want salvation after battle rezzing? Best thing to give you at that point is Might and Wisdom so you can catch up in DPS a bit.

__________________
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm gonna come at this fool like a math-crazed spider monkey.
[18:56] <Yabden> i dont want to live in a world where goa is better
#767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Stigmata
On what are you basing this? waiting for up to 2.9 seconds in bettween each stormstrike _CANNOT_ possibly be better, without doing the nunbers each second you have to wait is 10% longer time in between your SS, over a long fight that is massive.
See Dakashi's post - a modified version of Pater's sim shows more damage by waiting for the WF cooldown.

This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up.

I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary.
#768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vice
Has anyone else tried out the Cystalforged Trinket from the Ogri'la Rep?

I think its a good trinket, but after reading all of this for the first time, Im really not sure how it stacks up to the other trinkets listed which I dont really have access to before the other melee classes in my raids

Im definately a sucker for a fast offhand as well...gotta change that asap.

Crystalforged Trinket - 1min CD.
#769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Lujaar
See Dakashi's post - a modified version of Pater's sim shows more damage by waiting for the WF cooldown.

This is one of those problems that can't be properly simulated though, because sims don't screw up. They react much faster than human players do. Actually gaining DPS by this method would probably take some practice. If you delay hitting WF waiting for the cooldown, and then a white hit procs WF and puts you back on cooldown before you can get the stormstrike in, you're going to do less DPS than you would have if you'd just hit SS as soon as it was up.

I've been playing around with using a WF monitor and delaying stormstrike, and I like it so far, but individual results may vary.
The rule I generally go by is if I think there is more than 1.5 seconds left I just go ahead and SS, otherwise I wait. I've gotten pretty good at guessing the lag on the windfury timer. As long as the little ball that I go by turns red as I SS, I'm happy

I think there is a line between the loss of SS dps caused by waiting and the increased DPS from more windfury procs due to guaranteeing that the SS has a chance to proc windfury. 1.5 seconds seems like a good compromise.
#770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Galeyra
Concerning hit

Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss:

I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it?

an example one many i can't explain to myself:
It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about
WWS link
looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents

so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard.
but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%.
How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there?
Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS.
and sorry for the bad english.
#771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Galeyra
Hello, I've been reading here in these Forums for some days now. That's because I'm a Resto-specced Shaman and i want to try out Enhancement, and here is so much information about it.
Now my questions regarding hit and miss:

I got many different views about it, some say 100 hit rating is enough, some would swear going to the cap of 261 is best.(I'm not sure if its really the cap, this is what i've been reading here most). So could you clarify what hit percentage is now really the cap and if it's worth to reach it?

an example one many i can't explain to myself:
It's from WWS, an i always see high miss percentages, i'm wondered about
WWS link
looking into his armory(Link), he got around 10% hit from gear and 9%from talents

so he should miss aroung 5-6% on white hits, depending on how much you need to reach the cap. on yellow he should miss at all from what i've heard.
but if you look at WWS his white hits miss around 17% and wf at 8,7% and SS 1,8%.
How do you explain that? Does void reaver dodging counts as "miss" there?
Please explain me this. Note that this high miss percentages appear on almost every enhancement shaman i see on WWS.
and sorry for the bad english.
Anything that isn't a hit, crit, or glance, is considered a "Miss" for the total miss category. If you expand the melee attacks you can see a breakdown of the actual misses, dodges, and parries.

I've recently dropped about 90 hit rating and haven't looked back. Sadly some bad gearing choices were made before I tried this out.
#772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
For quite a while now we have worked with the concept that 'small haste effects which take weapon speed from just above 1.5 to just below it will decrease dps'. This is due to interaction with the WF cd timer, and was shown via sims, but I have not seen any ingame tests done to see the actual effects.

So, out I went to do a bit of testing on blasted lands mobs. I used 2 'Sergeant's Warhammer of ***' (2.1 speed, and level 12 greens, hence low dps numbers) as the weapons and first used 104 haste rating, the second set was done with 73 haste rating. The 104 haste rating set had a ring and trinket slot empty, the 73 had some green items in them to make sure no AP was lost when the Band of Devastion was removed. I also did not use my helm, as it has a haste proc meta gem. Total change in stats between the 2 sets - first set has 31 more haste rating than second, all other stats equal.

First set, 42 minutes 8 seconds (2528 seconds), damage done: 1000054 of which 59.5% white, 40.5% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.47.
Total dps: 396 of which white dps: 235, wf: 160

Second set, 43 minutes 17 seconds (2597 seconds), damage done: 1000194 of which 59.3% white, 40.7% WF. Speed with flurry = 1.51.
Total dps: 385 of which white dps: 228, wf: 157

Now clearly, as we all know, just dealing 2 million total damage is not enough to really conclude anything with the extreme randomness of shaman dps, however this does seem to show one thing, even when crossing the '1.5 speed barrier' with a small gain in haste rating we still see a gain in dps. WF dps was close enough to call as no change, clearly not the drastic loss the sims had lead us to believe, and if there is a loss it would then need a less than 31 haste rating change, basically a value so small as to be of no consequence (smallest single haste gain I could find was 26 rating).

The white damage however is clearly boosted by the presence of the haste, a 3.07% gain in white dps from 2.95% of haste looks to be a correct value. Total dps went up by 2.86% when going from 1.51 speed (flurried) to 1.47 speed (flurried). It would be nice to see some more data collected, but from this atleast it seems there is no point at which haste is bad at all, and it is infact a very strong stat for us no matter what our current flurried weapon speed is.
#773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Heya Khlysti, thanks for the great testing!

I personally think that lag has something to do with weapon hit times, so it might be a slightly better test to have something like 1.4 flurried speed versus 1.65 flurried speed.

In any case, those results are very interesting - thank you for them.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue
Disquette - shaman
#774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Roonie
Offhand choices.

Hello everyone =)

I was wondering if there was any reason I should get the [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] over the [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] for my new OH.

I only ask because the axe gets mentioned alot, and the mace does not - someone please enlighten me if there is actually a reason that the axe is better?

Also I would appreciate it if someone could have a look at my armoury page and see if I'm doing anything wrong? Personally i'm pretty happy currently - Bare in mind we're about to kill Gruul, So thats about the the level of loot I have access to. Planning on swapping out +Hit trinket with the Bloodlust Broach soon, and also the Hourglass trinket with the Dragonspine Trophy when nubcakes drops it.
Currently also grinding heroic mana tombs for the uber totem.

Thank you all in advance!

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...aenor&n=Roonie Here's me!! please don't be too mean!! ~Hides~
#775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Kaubel
It's possible to add that to your profile.

- User CP (top of this page)
- Edit WoW Profile
- Character Profile URL
#776SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
The axe isn't intrinsically better unless you are an orc.

HOWEVER, you should most likely get the fist weapon main hand (not off hand, as it's fast). As I do not believe you can disarm fist weapons.

The flip side of that is you can't switch the Fist weapon to your Off Hand when you get a better Main Hand
#777SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Galeyra
Originally Posted by Aett
Anything that isn't a hit, crit, or glance, is considered a "Miss" for the total miss category. If you expand the melee attacks you can see a breakdown of the actual misses, dodges, and parries.

I've recently dropped about 90 hit rating and haven't looked back. Sadly some bad gearing choices were made before I tried this out.
Thanks, i didn't even know, you could expand the melee statistics. That clearifies most.

Another thing i notice everytime:
Most enhancement shamans got parried and partially blocked some of their attacks. I always thought, that you could avoid all parries/blocks as long as you stand behind the mob.
So, am i wrong or did they probably stand wrong?

Last edited by Galeyra : 07/23/07 at 1:54 PM.
#778SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Unaz
The axe isn't intrinsically better unless you are an orc.

HOWEVER, you should most likely get the fist weapon main hand (not off hand, as it's fast). As I do not believe you can disarm fist weapons.

The flip side of that is you can't switch the Fist weapon to your Off Hand when you get a better Main Hand
Also be aware that the Axe hides the mongoose enchant. Not sure about the mace but I seem to remember someone saying that it doesn't.

Looks are totally like, 100 dps.
#779SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Disquette
Heya Khlysti, thanks for the great testing!

I personally think that lag has something to do with weapon hit times, so it might be a slightly better test to have something like 1.4 flurried speed versus 1.65 flurried speed.

In any case, those results are very interesting - thank you for them.
Yeah, I plan to run some more tests, with both more and less passive haste, just need a few more spare hours to do them in.
#780SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Originally Posted by Aett
Also be aware that the Axe hides the mongoose enchant. Not sure about the mace but I seem to remember someone saying that it doesn't.

Looks are totally like, 100 dps.
LOL true. But is the mongoose enchant visual on the mace better than the axe and its own glow visual?

Can anyone parse the information and do some modeling to see which look adds more dps? =)
#781SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Originally Posted by Ruzia
LOL true. But is the mongoose enchant visual on the mace better than the axe and its own glow visual?

Can anyone parse the information and do some modeling to see which look adds more dps? =)
Looks > DPS =P

Right now, i plan on shooting for a Dragonstrike (working on Dragonmaw, guild is going to start SSC so vortex will soon be readily available) and a OH 2.6 Arena Season 2 Axe. In terms of gearing, it seems that Cyclone set is pretty lacking on the leggings, and the gloves somewhat. So i'm thinking about shooting for the Chest and Helm for the 2 piece set bonus (24/26.4 AP boost personally, varied boost to group). And im just wondering if there are better choices out there for these 2 slots that outweights the set bonus.
#782SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stander
Originally Posted by Aett
Also be aware that the Axe hides the mongoose enchant. Not sure about the mace but I seem to remember someone saying that it doesn't.

Looks are totally like, 100 dps.
The axe does hide it, I cried inside.
#783SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
The T4 shoulders are probably the best piece of the set, especially if you're looking for a way to maintain 2pc T4 while working on T5. (The T5 shoulders suck.)
#784SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Lujaar
The T4 shoulders are probably the best piece of the set, especially if you're looking for a way to maintain 2pc T4 while working on T5. (The T5 shoulders suck.)
I'm not sure where you get that T5 shoulders suck, they do come out as better according to the itemization values in this thread. And additionally, continuing on the curent topic of discussion, they are some of the best looking shoulders in the game.

You're also going to have access to the T5 shoulders as one of your first pieces of the set, so you'll be wearing those over T4 for a while until you get another piece.
#785SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Unaz
I'm not sure where you get that T5 shoulders suck, they do come out as better according to the itemization values in this thread. And additionally, continuing on the curent topic of discussion, they are some of the best looking shoulders in the game.

You're also going to have access to the T5 shoulders as one of your first pieces of the set, so you'll be wearing those over T4 for a while until you get another piece.
I personally wouldn't break the two piece t4 if I wasn't picking up the four piece t5 from getting the shoulders. Too many of the item points were used up on MP5 to make it more than a very marginal upgrade over t4.
#786SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Unaz
HOWEVER, you should most likely get the fist weapon main hand (not off hand, as it's fast). As I do not believe you can disarm fist weapons.
Is this true?

(BTW, I was also disappointed to find the Cleaver's glow hides Mongoose as I like the Mongoose glow better, I'd go 2x Pummeler if I could do it over again... anyone able to confirm that Pummeler doesn't hide Mongoose?)

Originally Posted by Aett
I personally wouldn't break the two piece t4 if I wasn't picking up the four piece t5 from getting the shoulders. Too many of the item points were used up on MP5 to make it more than a very marginal upgrade over t4.
I have to agree that it's not worth breaking T4 2-piece until you can get the T5 helm (assuming you're going from Cyclone Helm + shoulders or chest to Cataclysm helm + something else), since that's the only huge step up as far as DPS stats are concerned. However, I wouldn't say I'd go for four-piece T5 unless I had a real hard-on for mail items; too many of the T5 items are comparable to or worse than other easily available items (Magtheridon gloves, Void Reaver Greaves, Hydross or Karathress chest, Shoulderpads of the Stranger or Mantle of the Tireless Tracker).
#787SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
I think this screenshot is double mongoose..

Mongoose on Pummeler, wowhead
#788SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Vice
Has anyone else tried out the Cystalforged Trinket from the Ogri'la Rep?

I think its a good trinket, but after reading all of this for the first time, Im really not sure how it stacks up to the other trinkets listed which I dont really have access to before the other melee classes in my raids

Im definately a sucker for a fast offhand as well...gotta change that asap.

Crystalforged Trinket - 1min CD.
Do a search, this question was posed 3 pages back.
#789SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ryley
Originally Posted by Rob
Is this true?
No it isn't, you can disarm fist weapons unfortunately.

Would rock if you couldn't be disarmed with a fist weapon though, have a reason to use one weapon over another. Heck, also be nice to have weapon masteries like rogues and warriors do =\

Last edited by Ryley : 07/24/07 at 12:30 AM.
#790SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
I think I prefer not having weapons specialization talents. Our suitable weapon choices are restricted enough. Maybe if there was a greater spread of items with the right speeds, WF damage was no longer tied to weapon speed or if we could use swords.
#791SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Pearl
Has anyone considered the libram of rapidity as a possible helm/leg enchant?

It provides 10haste rating (1%).
The current helm enchant being 34atp/16hit and the leg enchant being 40atp/10crit (50/12), i would think that it is not worth putting on legs. But is it viable for helm enchant or not?

If haste rating is calculated as 1haste = 1atp then surely not, but it could provide a cheeky solution for those that are looking to optimize their haste rating.
#792SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
We have 1 haste rating = 0.9 AEP right now so the AP Enchant would win out on that one.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#793SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Brum
From the OP:
Originally Posted by Malan
Swing TimerIt has been confirmed that the Invigorated proc will reset your swing timers. Natures Swiftness will also reset your swing timer when you use up the buff for a cast.
The proc itself doesn't reset your swing timers. Using the buff to heal does. Wording seems ambiguous to me. Maybe change it to "...using the Invigorated buff...".

__________________
Carpe Viam
#794SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Righto changing that now.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#795SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Luciellena
I haven't had time to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned already please just point to the page.

Anyway, I am still a pretty big noob when it comes to playing my Shaman as I am not 70 yet, but I have heard of totem twisting involving WFT and GoA. I know how it works and all that, but I am more curious about it being more beneficial to the group than just dropping WFT and using your shocks.

Basically I am asking, does totem twisting make up for the loss of personal DPS?
#796SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
I did a quick search of the threat (advisable to do before posting questions =P )

I personally use twist and my group loves it, it has been discussed some in this thread. I haven't seen any conclusive math saying that group dps is higher with twisting, but I haven't seen anyone make the argument that it wouldn't be.

The primary arguments against it were pretty well stated by Malan here.

The mana consumption issue is addressed here.

EDIT: The totem twisting issue is worth of a section in the OP in my opinion. Just a quick list of the pros and cons of doing it. Also mention the possibility of this ability being removed by Blizzard in the future.
#797SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Well the foremost argument is that its clearly not intended by the developers since you're only supposed to have on totem per element (and therefore the effect of only one totem) down, and will likely be changed when they see widespread use of it.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#798SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
Well the foremost argument is that its clearly not intended by the developers since you're only supposed to have on totem per element (and therefore the effect of only one totem) down, and will likely be changed when they see widespread use of it.
This argument really boils down to personal preference though. I didn't see many people not using WF 4/5 when that workaround was still there just because it was a bug.
#799SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
In a raid melee DPS group, yeah. GoA is probably a 5% DPS increase for each recipient. Your shocks are depending on gear, 10-15% of your DPS. 5% for 5 people > 15% for one person. You can even get away with some shocking if you twist WF1/GoA, which reduces the personal DPS loss.

There's no reason to totem-twist pre-raiding though, unless you find yourself in a 5-man group with 4 melee.

I hate twisting totems. On any fight where I have to do anything interesting it just doesn't seem worth it. Focusing on totems and constantly putting myself on global cooldown means I'm more likely to screw up whatever else I'm supposed to be doing. To me it's worth doing on long, stationary fights where melee just stands there hacking away (Tidewalker, Magtheridon, et al), but I can't see myself totem-twisting on a fight that requires mobility, interrupts, or spot healing.
#800SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Luciellena
I haven't had time to read this whole thread, so if this has been mentioned already please just point to the page.

Anyway, I am still a pretty big noob when it comes to playing my Shaman as I am not 70 yet, but I have heard of totem twisting involving WFT and GoA. I know how it works and all that, but I am more curious about it being more beneficial to the group than just dropping WFT and using your shocks.

Basically I am asking, does totem twisting make up for the loss of personal DPS?
On a typical fight for me I'm losing about 40k damage sacrificing shocking for totems. This number is going off the average 5 minute fight in BT/Hyjal, so somewhere along the lines of 45 shocks (these numbers are generous, I don't think I ever reach that # of shocks when I don't cycle my totems). 40k/5min = 130 dps, so you wonder if 5 group members getting 88 agi > 130 dps. My groups general make up is Rogue, Rogue, Rogue, Warrior, and myself. I suppose that this is where the confusion comes in, figuring out how to value that added agility. The way I go about it is checking out WWS to see what % of physical attacks make up their damage, divide their "new" DPS by the %, then multiply it by the added crit value of GA. Some rough numbers here, but I'm looking at 35 added dps per rogue (105), 32 dps for the warrior, and 42 dps for myself. 35+35+35+32+42 = 179 dps gain over 130 dps loss, nets you 49 raid dps. It's this level of gear as well, as it improves so will the yields of GA.
#801SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Or look at it as rogues get 1 AP per agility, so they get 88 AP and 14 AP = 1% DPS. 88/14 = 6 DPS.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#802SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
Edit: This actually did get discussed a fair bit and I missed most of the responses. Verdict seems to be that the axe isn't too important. Nevermind.


I know this got touched on earlier, but it never really got discussed. For those of you who have done Kael, would you recommend using the 2h axe, or the dagger? Or possibly some combination of both - use the axe until it procs, then switch to the dagger?

I don't have any firsthand experience with the fight aside from a couple testing-the-waters pulls last night, but if I need to be able to equip the axe, I need to respec and put a point in that stupid talent beforehand.

Last edited by Lujaar : 07/24/07 at 3:42 PM.
#803SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata has stated several times in this thread that he only uses the 2H for the run speed buff and continues to DPS using his normal weapons.

I've updated the front page with some notes on the totem twisting stuff.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#804SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3The Omen
thanks for this post I'm glad it has seen so much attention /cheer for you Malan
hopefully those shaman using fast off-hands will read this

i put this link in a thread on my forums and gave you credit /bow

__________________
Http://Shamanusa.informe.com
My Shaman Forums- Gold Ad Free
#805SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Luciellena
Thanks for the info everyone, this has been a very helpful thread.
#806SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Modeling stat target for optimal raid buffs

Has anyone attempted to model the minimum stats needed to keep UR up 100% of the time? It seems as if some of the data and ideas presented may increase personal DPS, but raid DPS is not considered. For example, stacking +crit over +hit, as some have started to do, may increase personal DPS, but may not keep UR up as much.

Has anyone found a "sweet spot?" I'm looking for data, not theory. I'd like to plan my loot path, and I don't necessarily agree with lootzor since it leans heavily towards warrior and rogue itemization which will give me pure DPS, but does nothing to consider a loss of 5% UR uptime.

Is there any tool like Tornhoof's WoW Equipment Optimizer that does this in addition to optimizing personal itemization?

Thanks in advance.
#807SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
oogg - take your crit rate, hit rate, and your number of expected attacks within a 10 second period, and it should give you an idea of what this number is. For example, let's say i have 2 2.6 weapons.

I'll conservatively say I have 25% crit chance, and will only windfury once in a 10 second period. I'll also conservatively say that in that 10 seconds, each weapon only auto attacks 4 times.

So, in a 10 second period, i have:
8 auto attacks
4 yellow attacks

Expect 6 of the auto attacks to connect (misses/dodges)
Expect 3 of the yellow attacks to connect (dodges)

I have been extremely conservative.

We thus have 9 hits landing in the span that UR could be refreshed. What are the chances that UR will fade then?

that's
3/4^9
= 7% downtime.

Same thing, assuming a 30% crit rate = 4% downtime.

You can take the above numbers (which are pretty conservative), modify them to your own situation, and make your own decision based on that.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#808SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by oogg
Has anyone attempted to model the minimum stats needed to keep UR up 100% of the time? It seems as if some of the data and ideas presented may increase personal DPS, but raid DPS is not considered. For example, stacking +crit over +hit, as some have started to do, may increase personal DPS, but may not keep UR up as much.

Has anyone found a "sweet spot?" I'm looking for data, not theory. I'd like to plan my loot path, and I don't necessarily agree with lootzor since it leans heavily towards warrior and rogue itemization which will give me pure DPS, but does nothing to consider a loss of 5% UR uptime.

Is there any tool like Tornhoof's WoW Equipment Optimizer that does this in addition to optimizing personal itemization?

Thanks in advance.
'Unleashed Rage Rank 5

Causes your critical hits with melee attacks to increase all party members' melee attack power by 10% if within 20 yards of the Shaman. Lasts 10 sec.'

Stacking +crit is the ONLY way to increase uptime, and it is a fairly basic proof to show you need 100% crit to produce 100% uptime. You will tend towards 100% at a much lower crit level however.

Lootzor gives you the loot you ask for, if you want mail with int/mp5 then give those stats a value, if it tells you rogue loot is the best option when you don't want rogue loot then you put in the wrong stat values.

As to stat levels, my current in game tests are still at early stages (posted some early haste stuff a page or so back). But at my gear level atleast it seems (with kings):

haste > strength > crit = 2AP > agi > hit.

Haste gear is (basically) only available in teir 6 zones, and is probably of lower value at lower gear levels anyway. Crit is pretty much only worse than strength on the grounds of kings, so an 'optimal' set will include quite a bit of crit, which is what keeps UR up. I therefore fail to see how you could end up trying to increase your own dps and decrease crit rate by any significant amount.
#809SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Lootzor gives you the loot you ask for, if you want mail with int/mp5 then give those stats a value, if it tells you rogue loot is the best option when you don't want rogue loot then you put in the wrong stat values.
That reminds me. I previously had stam at a .5 value, and mp5 and int on there at like .2 just to keep them around. But recently changed my link to this, which lowered the value of some shaman gear and raised up a few pieces of rogue gear a bit.

I did notice when looking closer that some of their items have the old stats, and they are even missing some pieces of T4 and 5 gear in my searches, which threw off my little list'o'bosses-I-need a bit.

I also probably value strength very slightly less then others, as I rarely have the luxury of kings on raids. Typically I'll only have one blessing available, and I go with Might in that case. But it's still very slightly higher then the equivilent AP in my search just in case.
#810SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I'm using this valuation - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I think I have this right based on the values I've been going off of from Tornhoof's example. I assign no value to stam/int.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#811SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm using this valuation - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I think I have this right based on the values I've been going off of from Tornhoof's example. I assign no value to stam/int.
(From the link)
Melee Crit 1
Melee Hit 0.69
Atk. Power 1

Those are *very* different numbers from Disquette and Pater's sims. I don't trust them. I'd expect Hit ~1 - 1.5 and Crit ~1.5 - 2
#812SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Hmm. I made AP worth 1, Str worth 2.2 (with kings) and then for hit I did 1AP/1.41 hit.
If I'm wrong on that, I suck at ratios.

In other news though, we just finished FLK for tonight -

The melee are very well geared, no slouches in that raid. I'm not sure why this fight is so well tuned toward enhance shaman, I'm always top 3 on this one.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#813SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Hmm. I made AP worth 1, Str worth 2.2 (with kings) and then for hit I did 1AP/1.41 hit.
It's 1 hit = 1.41 AP, not 1.41 hit = 1 AP, so hit should have 1.41 in the little box (and crit should have 1.5 or 2 depending on if you're using Disquette's or Pater's values)
#814SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yavon
Hey guys.. quick question.
Which potions do you use in your DPS rotation. I usually use Haste Pot.. every time they are up. And even with heroism. But I am thinking of trying Insane Str Potion..when I pop Heroism.. and haste for everything else. Thoughts?

Also, I know the first page touches on it. However, could someone explain to me why Flask for 120 AP beats Elixir of Agi.. for 2.3% (total).

Thanks in advance.
#815SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
Haste Potion's are much better than Insane Strength Potion's. Just use the stat ratios that have been posted in this thread. 1 Strength = 0.9 Haste Rating, so Insane Strength Potion's would need to give 360 Strength to equal the benefit of a Haste Potion. That's 3 times the amount they actually give(plus they reduce your defense!)

Haste Potion's are kind of overpowered in comparison to the other options, actually. It's like a personal mini-Bloodlust with a shorter cooldown.

You can use the same ratio's to figure out which is better between the agility elixir and the flask. The flask comes out slightly ahead as far as dps is concerned. The fact that it also lasts through death is a big deal too, though.
#816SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Malan: What mod is that that you're using to graph out damage and threat vs time like that? It looks kindof like SWstats but I've never seen that functionality in it. On fights where you're threat capped do you ever get your tanks to post their graphs for comparison?

Sebudai: Shouldn't insane strength potions have an advantage due to the WF and SS procs that happen while you're using them? You can theoretically get 2 SS and 4 WF procs with extra AP during the potion duration. Or is the extra damage from those procs plus your normal swings significantly less than the damage from extra attacks over 15 seconds?

edit: late-night posting causes stupid mistakes
#817SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Retta
Drats I believe that mod is recount, theres a post about it in the UI section of the forum.
#818SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by drats
Sebudai: Shouldn't insane strength potions have an advantage due to the WF and SS procs that happen while you're using them? You can theoretically get 2 SS and 4 WF procs with extra AP during the potion duration. Or is the extra damage from those procs plus your normal swings significantly less than the damage from extra attacks over 15 seconds?
Unless my understanding is way off, it doesn't matter. Those factors are all taken into consideration when we came up with the stat weightings. They're not something we have to re-calculate here.
#819SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yavon
Figure I use the post since it has the attention of so many valued members of shaman community.

Question: How many of you shaman aim for MAX hit cap, and if you do not.. what is your goal... Do you aim for highest AP possible, or crit for a certain amount. I keep flip flopping on what I want to aim for considering my current gear and what is available.

We are in SSC cleared to Vash and working on Al'ar next.. take a look at my armory let me know what you think i should aim for.
#820SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Yavon
Figure I use the post since it has the attention of so many valued members of shaman community.

Question: How many of you shaman aim for MAX hit cap, and if you do not.. what is your goal... Do you aim for highest AP possible, or crit for a certain amount. I keep flip flopping on what I want to aim for considering my current gear and what is available.

We are in SSC cleared to Vash and working on Al'ar next.. take a look at my armory let me know what you think i should aim for.
As said in the thread, you aim for whichever item gives you the highest overall value according to the ratio of stats. Hit doesn't come out to be overly important by itself beyond the first 6% (That you get from talents). Your other melee stats scale your damage at about the same rate, whether you're at an 80% white hit or 100% white hit.

More is certainly better, but not at the detriment of other stats. I personally don't like to dip below 15% total +hit though. Which is around a 90% white hit rate(although there's some info as to 24% not being the actual cap any more).
#821SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Yavon
Figure I use the post since it has the attention of so many valued members of shaman community.

Question: How many of you shaman aim for MAX hit cap, and if you do not.. what is your goal... Do you aim for highest AP possible, or crit for a certain amount. I keep flip flopping on what I want to aim for considering my current gear and what is available.

We are in SSC cleared to Vash and working on Al'ar next.. take a look at my armory let me know what you think i should aim for.
I run around 150 or so. For a short while I ran with 240+, but after reading a bunch of stuff here I dropped a ton and was really satisfied with the results. Makes itemization a lot easier too when you can actually pick up pure-stat pieces that warriors generally won't touch. Just pray your feral druids don't get pissed off.. >_>

EDIT: I don't know how the desolation chest got equipped in my armory profile, I must have been really sleepy or something. I normally run with the revered LC chest, which thank god I'm upgrading really soon.
#822SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yavon
Originally Posted by Unaz
As said in the thread, you aim for whichever item gives you the highest overall value according to the ratio of stats. Hit doesn't come out to be overly important by itself beyond the first 6% (That you get from talents). Your other melee stats scale your damage at about the same rate, whether you're at an 80% white hit or 100% white hit.

More is certainly better, but not at the detriment of other stats. I personally don't like to dip below 15% total +hit though. Which is around a 90% white hit rate(although there's some info as to 24% not being the actual cap any more).
So then how would u use that ratio with an item with multiple stats on it.. Like Ring of the Shadow Deeps verse another ring.. sorry if I am being short bus.. just want a firm understanding.
#823SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Yavon
So then how would u use that ratio with an item with multiple stats on it.. Like Ring of the Shadow Deeps verse another ring.. sorry if I am being short bus.. just want a firm understanding.
I dont use any of the ratios posted on here, I just look at the available upgrades and wait for them to drop.

I'm currently at 1506AP, 160 Hit rating and 30.27% crit and 10% passive haste, this equates to about 2700-3100 AP in a raid environment and 40ish % crit. (LotP and kings, might etc)

I think i'll have about 1700 AP unbuffed when I have all the items Im hoping to get, while maintaining the other stats in a similar position.
#824SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
I use the ratios posted in this thread to determine if a particular item happens to be an upgrade. That's it. When an upgrade drops, I send on it. My guild happens to get a lot of the non-set mail, so that's what I have(rather than a lot of T6.)

My current stats are the result of just sending on upgrades as they drop. We don't hold out for the best possible options in Juggernaut.

So then how would u use that ratio with an item with multiple stats on it.. Like Ring of the Shadow Deeps verse another ring.. sorry if I am being short bus.. just want a firm understanding.
Easy. I'll give you an example by totaling up the difference between two belts.

The ratios are 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste. This means, for example, 1 crit rating is worth 1 'point' while 1 hit rating is worth 0.7 'points'. We just use this ratio to assign each stat on an item a value and then add those values up to get a total that we can compare against other items. A higher total is better.

Valestalker Girdle
556 Armor
+27 Agility (26.25)
+25 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Equip: Improves haste rating by 36 (32.4)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76 (38)

Total: 96.65

Girdle of Tidal Call
506 Armor
+35 Strength (38.5)
+30 Stamina
+20 Intellect
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 33 (33)

Total: 71.5

So, Valestalker Girdle is pretty clearly better than Girdle of Tidal Call.
#825SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai
The ratios are 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste. This means, for example, 1 crit rating is worth 1 'point' while 1 hit rating is worth 0.7 'points'. We just use this ratio to assign each stat on an item a value and then add those values up to get a total that we can compare against other items. A higher total is better.
That's exactly how I was calculating my values in my post above, which Rob said was incorrect. So ... was I correct after all? ie, 1 AP / 1.43 HR = 0.6999 ~ 7 AEP.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#826SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
That's exactly how I was calculating my values in my post above, which Rob said was incorrect. So ... was I correct after all? ie, 1 AP / 1.43 HR = 0.6999 ~ 7 AEP.
1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste

2 AP / 1.43 HR = 1.40 AEP
#827SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Finally had a syphon drop, so i'm happy for now!

Boneweave Girdle
Binds when picked up
Waist Mail
556 Armor
+38 Agility (39)
+26 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17. (11.9)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 24. (24)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (38)

Total 112.9

Is that right by these numbers? Seems alot higher than Valestalker Girdle.
#828SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rob
[Valestalker Girdle]
+27 Agility (x1.7 = 45.9)
+25 Stamina
+18 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves haste rating by 36. (x2.2 = 79.2)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (76)
201.1

[Boneweave Girdle]
+38 Agility (x1.7 = 64.6)
+26 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17. (x1.25 = 21.25)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 24. (x1.75 = 42)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (76)
203.85

By my valuations*, yes, Boneweave is a bit better than Valestalker. [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] is the next best choice:
+29 Agility (x1.7 = 49.3)
+37 Stamina
Red Socket (x8x2.2 = 17.6)
Yellow Socket (x8x2.2 = 17.6)
Socket Bonus: +4 Stamina
Durability 40 / 40
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x1.75 = 33.25)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (76)
193.75


* Based on averaging Pater and Disquette's AEP calculations, since I don't know which is right and the true value likely lies somewhere between the two. I do assume Kings 100% of the time since that's what I'm getting these days. This also uses the current "best guess" for Haste, which values it identically to Strength with Kings or slightly better than Strength without Kings.

Last edited by Rob : 07/25/07 at 8:10 PM. Reason: explain rationale, fix item links
#829SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ketrew
Currently, my MH is the Drakefist Hammer (Speed 2.7) and my OH is the Runic Hammer (Speed 2.4). Before I read this thread I fully intended to upgrade my Drakefist Hammer to the Dragonmaw (Speed 2.7) and eventually replace my Runic Hammer with the Arena OH. Now that I've ready this thread though I'm questioning having a MH that is slower then my OH. I'd love some advise on if its still worth it to make the Dragonmaw and if not what weapon should I look to replace my Drakefist Hammer with.

Tenion
Silverhand Shaman
#830SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Short answer: yes, it's worth it (unless you have easy access to 100 DPS weapons from BT).
#831SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sintor
Would this be correct then? Reasoning behind the numbers is 1/stat-value + 10% for kings on agi/str; using thousands instead of decimal points.

Used these equations:
1 / 1str = 1, moved up to 1000 + 10% = 1100
1 / 0.97agi = 1.031, moved up to 1030 + 10% = 1133
1 / 2AP = .5, moved up to 500
1 / 1.43HR = .699, moved up to 699
1 / 1CR = 1, moved up to 1000
Allowing purple gems to be slotted seems to change the lineup a bit, most noticeably things like Liar's Tongue Gloves coming out near the top. I think this should be fairly accurate, barring the value of haste rating, which should only change the relative positions of a few items.
#832SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
At a glance, there's nothing glaringly wrong with those numbers, except that agi shouldn't be coming out higher than CR or STR
#833SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Finally had a syphon drop, so i'm happy for now!

Boneweave Girdle
Binds when picked up
Waist Mail
556 Armor
+38 Agility (39)
+26 Intellect
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 17. (11.9)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 24. (24)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76. (38)

Total 112.9

Is that right by these numbers? Seems alot higher than Valestalker Girdle.
I have the agility totalling to 37, but otherwise I think that is correct. Even though Boneweave might be slightly better for dps, I still think Valestalker is the better item because it has stamina.
#834SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sintor
Originally Posted by Rob
At a glance, there's nothing glaringly wrong with those numbers, except that agi shouldn't be coming out higher than CR or STR
I guess I don't understand how that's possible if the given comparison is:

To put it another way, 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 Hit = 0.9 Haste
That's essentially saying that less than one point of agility is equal to one point of strength/cr, albeit by a very small (.03) margin. Right?
#835SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Originally Posted by Sintor
I guess I don't understand how that's possible if the given comparison is:

To put it another way, 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR = 2 AP = 1.43 Hit = 0.9 Haste
That's essentially saying that less than one point of agility is equal to one point of strength/cr, albeit by a very small (.03) margin. Right?
Agi gives less crit % per point than crit rating -- even with kings -- your comparison is off somewhere. I'm guessing you are mixing "valuation" and "equivalency" formulas. For example you might have
STR = 1
CR = 1
AGI = 0.97

If you mix that up and say 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR you get an incorrect result.
#836SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Sintor
Originally Posted by Rob
Agi gives less crit % per point than crit rating -- even with kings -- your comparison is off somewhere. I'm guessing you are mixing "valuation" and "equivalency" formulas. For example you might have
STR = 1
CR = 1
AGI = 0.97

If you mix that up and say 0.97 AGI = 1 CR = 1 STR you get an incorrect result.
So what would the proper weight be, given that example?

Edit: Looking at your above post with the two belt values, ignoring the one with haste rating (lootzor can't compute), it looks like they came up with nearly the same conclusion.

Last edited by Sintor : 07/25/07 at 9:52 PM.
#837SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ketrew
Originally Posted by Rob
Short answer: yes, it's worth it (unless you have easy access to 100 DPS weapons from BT).
Thanks Rob!
#838SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Ok clearly some of the numbers problem is my fault due to "lost in translation" of some of pater/tornhoof/disquette's posts on this stuff.

So - Rob/Someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, help us out and tell me exactly what I need to change the first post to read to clear all this up.

Oooh big news from the Blue posts -
WoW BlueTracker: Blue Response plz to Meta gem question.
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond
+12 Agility & 3% Increased Critical Damage

It's a crit damage modifier, which means it's increasing the damage your crits do, not the chance they have to happen. It isn't specific to any school or damage type, it works for spells, melee, and ranged.

Instead of getting a 100% damage bonus with a crit, you would be getting a 103% damage bonus with a crit using that meta gem.
He then tells another guy that its a 3% bonus on the base crit damage bonus - so if a spell through talents is modified to 150% damage, the 3% is applied to the base crit damage.
Yes. It's an increase of the base.

Last edited by Malan : 07/25/07 at 10:56 PM.
#839SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.

edit: AP being 1, I have sta=0.8 and int=0.25. These small amounts really do skew around a few of the "best" pieces.
#840SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.

edit: AP being 1, I have sta=0.8 and int=0.25. These small amounts really do skew around a few of the "best" pieces.
The problem with int is any item that has it is going to be worse than a similar item without it. Since our shocks don't scale as our gear improves, over time the contribution from shocks just gets lower and lower. Realistically you'll never have such a small mana pool that you can't do SS+totems so anytime you can spend item points on a melee dps stat rather than int it's going to be a net gain.
#841SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
So - Rob/Someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, help us out and tell me exactly what I need to change the first post to read to clear all this up.
We have 3 different sets of formulas bouncing around. To the best of my knowledge, here's what we have been given:

Disquette's sim:
STR=2 AEP (2.2 w/Kings)
AGI=1.33 AEP (1.47 w/Kings)
CR=1.51 AEP
HR=1.08 AEP
AP=1 AEP
Equivalency formula without Kings:
1 AP = 0.50 STR = 0.75 AGI = 0.66 CR = 0.93 HR
Equivalency formula with Kings:
1 AP = 0.45 STR = 0.68 AGI = 0.66 CR = 0.93 HR

Pater's sim (numbers based on Pawn string in your first post):
STR=2 AEP (2.2 w/Kings)
AGI=1.8 AEP (2 w/Kings)
CR=2 AEP
HR=1.4 AEP
AP=1 AEP
Equivalency formula without Kings:
1 AP = 0.50 STR = 0.55 AGI = 0.50 CR = 0.71 HR
Equivalency formula with Kings:
1 AP = 0.45 STR = 0.50 AGI = 0.50 CR = 0.71 HR

Tornhoof's sim
2200 AP, 25% crit, 22% hit = 763.3 DPS
+100 AP = 21.5DPS increase
+50 CR = 21 DPS increase
+50 HR = 15 DPS increase
so:

50 STR = 21.50 DPS (23.65 w/Kings)
50 AGI = 18.56 DPS (20.42 w/Kings)
50 CR = 21 DPS
50 HR = 15 DPS
50 AP = 10.75 DPS
Equivalency formula without Kings:
1 AP = 0.50 STR = 0.58 AGI = 0.51 CR = 0.72 HR
Equivalency formula with Kings:
1 AP = 0.45 STR = 0.53 AGI = 0.51 CR = 0.72 HR

In each case, the first set of numbers is what you'd use for Lootzor, or Pawn strings. The second set of numbers is only presented as an item of interest, not as a practical means of deciding what gear is best to use.

What about Haste?
Preliminary numbers indicate that each point of haste rating is worth approximately the same amount as 1 Strength with Kings; i.e. 2.2 AEP. This only holds true as long as your attack speed is not pulled below 1.5 hasted: at that point, the average value for each point of haste drops, even if you are brought below the speed at which overall DPS picks up again (~1.35* flurried hasted weapon speed). Thus, optimal DPS will probably require that no combination of your passive haste plus any haste effects (Mongoose, Dragonspine, Dragonmaw, Haste pots, etc.) will bring you below a 1.5 weapon speed hasted unless they also drop you below 1.35* speed. Because Dragonspine Trophy, the Dragonmaw proc, and Heroism grant such large amounts of haste, they will almost certainly drop you below 1.5 speed if the rest of your gear doesn't drop you into the "valley" between 1.35 and 1.5 -- make sure that Flurry, your passive haste, and a mongoose proc doesn't put you in that zone.

* This figure is from memory and NOT canonical by any means, please do correct it if it's wrong.


Edit:
This isn't really done yet, I would like to round up all the relevant links and create some useable Lootzor links, clean up all the text -- but I wanted to have something for you in the meantime. I'm going to bed now and I'll come back to this tomorrow.

Last edited by Rob : 07/26/07 at 2:23 AM.
#842SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
Ok clearly some of the numbers problem is my fault due to "lost in translation" of some of pater/tornhoof/disquette's posts on this stuff.

So - Rob/Someone who knows what the hell they're talking about, help us out and tell me exactly what I need to change the first post to read to clear all this up.
The ratios are 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP = 0.9 Haste. This means, for example, 1 crit rating is worth 1 'point' while 1 hit rating is worth 0.7 'points'. We just use this ratio to assign each stat on an item a value and then add those values up to get a total that we can compare against other items. A higher total is better.
This kind of statement is probably the source of the confusion. It's correct, but it starts out with equivalences then uses weights to describe the items. If someone wasn't already familiar with the difference between the two or just wasn't reading close enough they might miss the conversion and come to the wrong conclusion.
#843SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I have the agility totalling to 37, but otherwise I think that is correct. Even though Boneweave might be slightly better for dps, I still think Valestalker is the better item because it has stamina.
The stamina doesn't really matter for me, I'm at 9.1k unbuffed and in a raid environment its at 11.1k.

Originally Posted by Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.

edit: AP being 1, I have sta=0.8 and int=0.25. These small amounts really do skew around a few of the "best" pieces.
I don't think any of us ignore int, it is just alot less important, with AI/motw I have about 7.5k which is easily enough for anything i've encountered so far. SR is the single best regen ability in the game now (roughly 10k mana regen in 40 seconds)

That said I would never be concerned if any item doesn't have int on them.

Last edited by Stigmata : 07/26/07 at 3:58 AM.
#844SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shalas
Originally Posted by Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int.
Using sta as anything other than a tiebreaker for numerical item comparisons nearly always gives fairly bad results. You pretty much either need more health, or you don't -- going from 11k to 12k hp is beneficial, but not very. You'll still die if you pull aggro, and in many cases it won't even let you survive another aoe without getting healed. Once you're past the stage where items with no sta exist in significant amounts, you can pretty much just treat it like resistances on gear -- you wouldn't give up a single point of agi for fire resist on a fight that doesn't deal fire damage, and similarly you shouldn't give up any dps stats for sta once you aren't dying due to a lack of sta. Even if you do need more sta, boosting it's lootzor value is rarely the right way to do it. Lootzor is mainly for comparing items in one slot, but in the case of sta you want to give up the lowest amount of dps stats for a certain amount of sta.

For example, you have three slots that you could swap out for sta-heavy gear. Slot 1 has a 100 AP dps item or a 70 AP, 35 sta item. Slot 2 has a 115 AP dps item or a 100 AP, 15 sta item. Slot 3 has a 50 AP dps item or 40 AP, 20 sta item. If you need 25 more sta, the correct choice is to switch slots 2 and 3 to sta items (240 total AP), rather than switching slot 1 (235 total AP). However, no lootzor value of sta will tell you to do this -- the only possible sets of best items are: All DPS; Sta in 3 only; Sta in 1 and 3; All Sta.
#845SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
I would highly recommend NOT to overlook stamina nor dont look at agility as only source of crit rating.

There are many fights ahead that require certain ammount of stamina to survive: at High Warlord Naj'entus (BT 1) eveyone gets 8k damage as part of enocounter; at Rage Winterchill you want to have enough to survive 2 icebolts + initial blast (10,5k i think); at Archimonde survive 3-4 ticks of grip/doomfire or forget it etc etc. Its NOT only about pulling aggro. 9k or 11k makes acually a life or death difference (for example. we combatressed a mage at Najentus, only to find out that even with fortitude, his max hp was lower than 8k... oneshot).

Same way I do rate agility higher than CR. While 25 agi is 1% or 21 CR, having agility instead of CR gives you dodge. I have unbuffed 17% dodge. This does help vs random damage in many occasions, Mount Hyjal trashpacks to name a few and belive me, its very nice to dodge a soulshard at Archimonde...

I am not trying to say, that sacrifice dps for stats, but do not go full out dps without any health, dodge nor INT. Your a shaman, hybrid, afterall. If you dont want to utilize that hybridness, benefit of mail armorclass, defences, together with some healingpower... reroll a rogue?
#846SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Hey Rob,

while my initial numbers were OK enough to show that hit wasn't as important as everyone had thought, they're not good numbers (because i know that flurry is modeled wrong). You can take mine out of there until I finally get a better set of numbers up.
#847SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Nemaa
Back to the equivalencies, I'm using this formula:
1CR = 1STR = 2.2AP = 1.43HR = 0.9 Haste = 1.02 AGI

This means 1 crit is better than 1 ap, 1 hit rating and 1 agility, worse than 1 point of haste and equal to 1 point of strength. If I want to determine which item is better, I divide the stats with the numbers like this:

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator
38 agi / 1.02 = 35.294
26 critr / 1 = 26
76 ap / 2.2 = 34.55
Total value = 95.84

Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes
27 agi / 1,02 = 26.47
37 haster / 0.9 = 41.11
74 ap / 2.2 = 33.64
Total value = 101.22

Last edited by Nemaa : 07/26/07 at 8:08 AM.
#848SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Sebudai, I see you are using Rising tide in MH and Syphon on OH. I used to do the same because I tought Rising Tide would eat more wf procs and it lowers my DPS. Yesterday I tried out and swapped them and I saw much bigger white hits/crits. I never saw 3400 wf crits before... I think its better to have this 0.2 slower weapon in MH and have Rising Tide proc a bit more wfs than having the faster but lesser end damage axe in MH. My white hits are 50-55% of my damage, windfury attacks are only about 30-40%. Anyway I'll go to blasted lands and test it on the weekend.
#849SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Same way I do rate agility higher than CR. While 25 agi is 1% or 21 CR, having agility instead of CR gives you dodge. I have unbuffed 17% dodge. This does help vs random damage in many occasions, Mount Hyjal trashpacks to name a few and belive me, its very nice to dodge a soulshard at Archimonde...
This is the exact reason why I'm not afraid at all to get agility. It's not that far off from crit rating and offers other, tangible benefits. Granted I tend to stay away from the hunter/rogue items where agility is obviously designed to be a source of attack power.
#850SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
I am assuming that when you guys keep saying Arena OH, they are referring to One Hand and not the Off Hand. Am I correct in saying this? Because shaman typically want the slowest possible OH weapon.

And also, my guild had asked me about getting dual Battle Master enchants for the raid. But I read that the group heal generates threat.
Is this true, and have any shaman had experience with BM enchants?
#851SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ambika
Originally Posted by Malus
I am assuming that when you guys keep saying Arena OH, they are referring to One Hand and not the Off Hand. Am I correct in saying this? Because shaman typically want the slowest possible OH weapon.

And also, my guild had asked me about getting dual Battle Master enchants for the raid. But I read that the group heal generates threat.
Is this true, and have any shaman had experience with BM enchants?
I'll be honest, your raid leader should be shot for thinking like that.

Not only does it

A. generate 50hp or some ridiculous low amount
B. It's a proc that doesn't go off all the time and very sporadic
C. Generates increased threat to you
D. Doesn't increase your dps in the slightest in fact it hinders you because you could be using Mongoose or +20STR enchants on 2 weapons.

BM is a cute enchant but you'd want it on a FAST weapon so it would proc ridiculous amounts to make it even quasi useful (which it isn't) but since you are going with 2 SLOW weapons it's a waste.

Smile, nod your head, and put mongoose on your weapons and throw down a healing totem. There you just did one better.
#852SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I used a BM enchant for kicks during KZ to test it out, the proc rate is horribly low. In my previous guild the MT was using it on his tanking weapon and over the course of a boss fight he'd have maybe 2 or 3 procs. It heals around 200 to each player I think. But as noted, definitely not the preferred enchant for someone filling a DPS/Support role.
#853SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
Those are both precisely what I thought and countered to his request, thank you guys for verifying this for me before I wasted mats on a "trash" enchant.

I planned to go with crusader until I could get 2xPotency.
#854SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ambika
Originally Posted by Malan
I used a BM enchant for kicks during KZ to test it out, the proc rate is horribly low. In my previous guild the MT was using it on his tanking weapon and over the course of a boss fight he'd have maybe 2 or 3 procs. It heals around 200 to each player I think. But as noted, definitely not the preferred enchant for someone filling a DPS/Support role.
I had that enchant on my Grim tor's axe for a while on my tanking warrior. Really didn't do much for me or the group as a whole. When I slapped on mongoose, worlds collided, the angels sung, and tanking got a heckuva lot easier.
#855SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ambika
Originally Posted by Malus
Those are both precisely what I thought and countered to his request, thank you guys for verifying this for me before I wasted mats on a "trash" enchant.

I planned to go with crusader until I could get 2xPotency.
Why not Mongoose? Has that been discarded as a 'good' enchant after all?
#856SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ambika
Why not Mongoose? Has that been discarded as a 'good' enchant after all?
No, mongoose is pretty much the best enchant. Crusader is nice and cheap, and slightly better than potency.
#857SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
Originally Posted by Ambika
Why not Mongoose? Has that been discarded as a 'good' enchant after all?
Well, quite honestly unless my guild can provide most of the mats - I can not afford it on one weapon, no less x2.

And honestly to some extent I have been slightly confused about haste benefits on shaman, I read one place it says haste is great for shaman, but then it also says when we are hasted - that we actually have a dps lose because of the WF cooldown.

And, I also read that while mongoose x2 can stack, but I read the haste will not stack on top of flurry.

So if this is incorrect, please set me straight.
#858SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Haste effects always stack, and unless you have lot and lots of haste modifiers it will always be good.
#859SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Azide
Why do people ignore sta/int in lootzor? I understand the point for maxing the DPS stats, but I can't imagine going after all the "best" pieces, which happen to be leather with no int. 4-5k mana has to blow.

Sta isn't really an issue (most pieces have a reasonable amount) but for my own lootzor comparisons I include it along with int
I used to include sta/int in my lootzor, but there are two problems. First, it's a very subjective valuation, not at all objective like the calculated numbers we're working with from sims and modeling. Second, as has been said, it's often irrelevant. When I started boosting my AP more (as a result of the modeling in this thread) I found I could easily refill from Shamanistic Rage and maybe an Unstable Mana Potion (which I have plenty of from daily questing). Once you have enough mana to drop totems and shock for two minutes until Shamanistic Rage is back up, more mana is worthless. Similarly, if you have enough stamina to survive random AOE ability #34, if your healers are decent, more stamina isn't providing you with additional value -- and, like you said, almost every piece, rogue or hunter, has stam on it anyway.
Originally Posted by Malus
Well, quite honestly unless my guild can provide most of the mats - I can not afford it on one weapon, no less x2.

And honestly to some extent I have been slightly confused about haste benefits on shaman, I read one place it says haste is great for shaman, but then it also says when we are hasted - that we actually have a dps lose because of the WF cooldown.

And, I also read that while mongoose x2 can stack, but I read the haste will not stack on top of flurry.

So if this is incorrect, please set me straight.
If your guild is decent it should provide voids from disenchanted epics -- the rest would be up to you. Farm ore/herbs, start mailing all your greens to an enchanter friend and have him mail back dust/shards. That said, Mongoose does stack on top of Flurry, Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, though for very specific values of passive haste (which nobody has unless they are in BT gear) I would actually expect that Crusader > Potency > Mongoose.

PS. Yes we are referring to one-hand, not off-hand, when we talk about arena OH. However, it so happens that most shamans with access to Karazhan purples or crafted T2/T3 will actually use this weapon in their off-hand initially.
#860SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malus
Originally Posted by Rob
If your guild is decent it should provide voids from disenchanted epics -- the rest would be up to you. Farm ore/herbs, start mailing all your greens to an enchanter friend and have him mail back dust/shards. That said, Mongoose does stack on top of Flurry, Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, though for very specific values of passive haste (which nobody has unless they are in BT gear) I would actually expect that Crusader > Potency > Mongoose.

PS. Yes we are referring to one-hand, not off-hand, when we talk about arena OH. However, it so happens that most shamans with access to Karazhan purples or crafted T2/T3 will actually use this weapon in their off-hand initially.

I just don't think we have the void's, my shaman's guild has been a revolving door of sorts and not alot of epics have been able to be busted - the rest I can get.


As far as the Arena OH, that is what I expected - because that is what I am saving my current points for atm. Because I am one nether shy of my Drake-> Dragonmaw upgrade for my MH.

Thanks for the response.
#861SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malus
I just don't think we have the void's, my shaman's guild has been a revolving door of sorts and not alot of epics have been able to be busted - the rest I can get.
Go for 2x Crusader in the meantime, then.
#862SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Well if you do 8-10 daily quests every day you should be able to afford (depending on AH prices on your server) 2x mongoose in a week or less.
#863SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Sebudai
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Sebudai, I see you are using Rising tide in MH and Syphon on OH. I used to do the same because I tought Rising Tide would eat more wf procs and it lowers my DPS. Yesterday I tried out and swapped them and I saw much bigger white hits/crits. I never saw 3400 wf crits before... I think its better to have this 0.2 slower weapon in MH and have Rising Tide proc a bit more wfs than having the faster but lesser end damage axe in MH. My white hits are 50-55% of my damage, windfury attacks are only about 30-40%. Anyway I'll go to blasted lands and test it on the weekend.
I haven't gotten around to figuring out which way is better yet. The main reason I had Rising Tide in my MH is because of the orc racial. I don't know which way is better. I'll probably try switching it to Syphon MH in the near future.

On a different note, I just realized that I've been doing the math incorrectly for haste rating. The 36 haste rating on Valestalker Girdle comes to 40 'points', not 32.4.

-Edit-
Oh yeah, I forgot one of the reasons I've been puting Syphon offhand is in my current gear setup when I have Flurry and Bloodlust active it puts the Syphon at 1.47 speed. On a lot of fights I get Bloodlust multiple times, so I figured it might be best to put the axe MH. I don't know for sure, though. I'm just guessing.

Last edited by Sebudai : 07/26/07 at 8:23 PM.
#864SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Lootzor seems to be a bit off, its not displaying much of the T4/T5 pieces and even some T6 is missing. "Missing" as in, it goes from epics to blues but not Tiered items.
Used these values - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
#865SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Lootzor seems to be a bit off, its not displaying much of the T4/T5 pieces and even some T6 is missing. "Missing" as in, it goes from epics to blues but not Tiered items.
Used these values - lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
No value assigned to strength, of course it won't show tiered items (which have lots of STR)
#866SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Whoah how'd that happen. Thanks.
#867SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Aett
This is the exact reason why I'm not afraid at all to get agility. It's not that far off from crit rating and offers other, tangible benefits. Granted I tend to stay away from the hunter/rogue items where agility is obviously designed to be a source of attack power.
Yes, and also one reason I dont like T6. T5 has agility and also a much better distribution of the valuepts. Damn, I really dont understand why enhancement T6 must suck so much.
#868SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Yes, and also one reason I dont like T6. T5 has agility and also a much better distribution of the valuepts. Damn, I really dont understand why enhancement T6 must suck so much.
The set really doesn't suck, its better than T5 even though it has wasted points in mp5.
#869SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Stigmata
The set really doesn't suck, its better than T5 even though it has wasted points in mp5.
But it has the potential to be so much better. Sad how the old T4/5 problems are creeping up again. Although, T6 gloves still rock.
#870SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Stigmata
The set really doesn't suck, its better than T5 even though it has wasted points in mp5.
It's just sad there are non-set items that are superior for every slot. At least T5 had a great helm and gloves, T6 is consolation prizes across the board. Hopefully at some point they'll go through and re-itemize without the mp5, it's frustrating that they haven't learned from the mistakes with T4 and T5 though.

On an unrelated note, Thottbot now has pawn/lootzor style item scoring. The item search also gives you the option of only listing high scoring items, it's nothing new but since lootzor still doesn't include haste rating it's useful. The scores it gives are pawn style rather than the normalized values lootzor gives.
#871SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Magna_FA
On that subject, I threw in all the best of slot mail pieces I could find into excel and calculated the difference between non-set pieces and Skyshatter including the 4 piece bonus. What do you guys think? If you take the formula at face value, it's better to get the non-set pieces and forget about Skyshatter. However, when I plotted it out like this, I noticed that the non-set pieces, being obviously hunter gear (they even look like hunter gear from what I gather) they have very little +hit. Now I know +hit has a relatively low value, and I've proven earlier in this thread that dropping really low isn't bad as long as you replace it with other stats. On the plus side though, going with non-set means more agility vs. crit rating, which means you will gain dodge too. Also, the non-set pieces are easier to get as they are sooner in progression and you would have to compete with less people (hunters only vs. warriors and other shaman specs)

So what do you all think? Is it better to go with the non-set? Or is there some reason to try and get the Skyshatter at least to the 4 piece (probably go with non-set legs still, as they are the most gain)?

BTW, I used epic gems in the gem slots for the calculations, so 10 str for red, 5str/5crit for yellow, and 5str for blue.

				Str	Agi	CR	HR	Atk Pwr	Haste	Points	
Top Non-Set								
Forest Prowler's Helm		10	42	32		100		133.74	
Shoulders of the Hidden Predator		38	26		76		100.86	
Skyshatter Grips			46		26	13			85.7	
Bow-stitched Leggings		20	42	29		100		141.74	
Mail of Fevered Pursuit			49	29		108		130.53	
Set Bonus								0		0	
Total										592.57	

Skyshatter								
Helm				58		45	20			122.8	10.94
Shoulders				45		34	11			91.2	9.66
Gloves				46		26	13			85.7	0
Leggings				53		39	21			112	29.74
Chest				65		32	15			114	16.53
Set Bonus								70		35	
Total										560.7	31.87
Edit: Sorry, forgot the conversion I used. Str=1.1, Agi=.97, CR=1, HR=.7, Atk Pwr=.5
#872SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Eland
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Back to the equivalencies, I'm using this formula:
1CR = 1STR = 2.2AP = 1.43HR = 0.9 Haste = 1.02 AGI
So I think taking the ratios (ie dividing them all into 1) of these numbers would give the the associated weights for plugging them into lootzor?

So then weights are:
CR = 1
STR = 1
AP ~ 0.456
HR ~ 0.699
Haste ~ 1.11
Agi ~ 0.98

Giving this lootzor. Well unfortunately without the haste rating as of yet. Sorry if this is obvious to everyone, I'm just putting it down as I found the equivalencies confusing for a bit as my gear choice process basically revolves around finding weights to put in lootzor.

I'm starting to think personally that assigning some weight to stam is worthwhile. While I think that stuff like fel leather is a good gearing up option there aren't many boss fights (nor trash clears) I can think of where I would be happy to be kited out in items that haven't spent some of their item budget on stamina. I quite often find myself swapping for example gauntlets of the dragonslayer for fel leather gloves to boost my survivability in trash clears and aoeing boss. While armor can in almost all circumstances be considered useless I'm not so sure about giving stamina a weight of 0 or not including the dodge component of agility in it's item weighting.
#873SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Post 872 -
My opinion is to always take an upgrade when its available. If that means that a Tiered Set item is better than what you have, even though there is 'better' available, I'd still take the upgrade. I never wait for a drop and take things when I can. Look at the lootzor item listing for our currently accepted stat weights. T5 and T4 are at the very bottom, right next to each other. I think that Blizzard may have just declared set items to be the easiest item to get and therefore should be the least beneficial. That's contrary to how most players feel though - set items are "cool" and have bonuses and a unified look to them.

Post 873 -
I think all you've done is normalized the values to 1, its still the same ratio as if you hadn't done that. I just edited the front page with some material that Rob gave me and things should make more sense now. It also has a correct lootzor link on it finally.

Last edited by Malan : 07/27/07 at 9:53 AM.
#874SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Eland
I'm starting to think personally that assigning some weight to stam is worthwhile.
It's worthwhile until you're through Karazhan I believe. As you need to prioritize stam gear until you can sit over 8500 or so buffed. After that you don't need to look at it any more. All the gear you'll get from 25 mans will have enough stam on it to keep you in safe territory.

I wore blue 'of the bear' legs that had ~60 stam and about 40 strength on it, with the 40 stam armor patch for a long time. That filled out most of my HP needs by itself.
#875SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Oh hey Malan. I'm not sure if it's been taken into account in the ratios, but seeing as Strength is weighted slightly higher then AP due to Kings, is Agility getting that same consideration? Trying to dig up the Agility to crit ratio now.
#926SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Was the Ashtongue talisman nerfed recently? I got it a few days ago and every WWS I look at it is hovering around 50% uptime. Of course if I managed to get a Stormstrike off before the buff expired it wouldn't accurately display on WWS, but I find it hard to believe with latency it is possible to keep Power Surge up.
#927SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by rava
Was the Ashtongue talisman nerfed recently? I got it a few days ago and every WWS I look at it is hovering around 50% uptime. Of course if I managed to get a Stormstrike off before the buff expired it wouldn't accurately display on WWS, but I find it hard to believe with latency it is possible to keep Power Surge up.
You could download this mod: Flurry Uptime Meter | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com

Open flurrymeter.lua and change:

if (arg1 == "You gain Flurry.") then
to
if (arg1 == "You gain Power Surge.") then
and
if (arg1 == "Flurry fades from you.") then
to
if (arg1 == "Power Surge fades from you.") then
Then go beat on some blasted lands mobs and see what it shows.
#928SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Me spamming stormstrike for 15 minutes : http://i10.tinypic.com/4ptaqex.jpg

I changed the lines like you had said and I'm assuming that the top right % = surge uptime?
#929SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by rava
Me spamming stormstrike for 15 minutes : http://i10.tinypic.com/4ptaqex.jpg

I changed the lines like you had said and I'm assuming that the top right % = surge uptime?
Yup, 85% uptime is pretty good, equivalent to 234 passive ap, can't beat that.
#930SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
question about weapon speed

hello guys 1st time i see this kind of forum and for long time i am searching for shaman melee advices or so

anyway i use dragonstrike as mh and netherzim on oh (supremus weapon)

i wanted to know if this combo is fine as for the 3 sec wf c/d
and ofc if its worth it to lose the stats on other off hands like the 1 from nejntus



thanks alot !
#931SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Read the OP thoroughly and maybe some pages of the discussion and you should have your answer.
#932SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
Originally Posted by Ruzia
Read the OP thoroughly and maybe some pages of the discussion and you should have your answer.
well cant realy find it ;[
searching for like 20 min now ;d
#933SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
T.K.
Sup all. I've read all this thread from start to end. Read all the Flurry thread. Read the other Itemization thread and so on. All the stuff about gems and so i'm going forward to it, like going for the crit/str gems into yellow slots, str gems into red and so on...

I'm currently farming the S2 arena weapon to use as off-hand. Trying to get the T4 chest and shoulder. I really think i understand and know all the mechanics that was discussed in here forth and back into all these threads.

What i can't undestand is my actual DPS in the current level of gear i am. I really think i'm doing low damage, with the level of gear i am. My guild have some nice DPS, that hit hard and constantly, mantaining high DPS most raids. (Well geared rogues, mages, locks for our current level).

We are at the moment wiping on 50% on Morogrim and already killed loot Reaver and trying Al'ar. Right now when i'm typing this my guild is trying Morogrim, but they don't allow me in, as our ret pally is already in. They aways bring to the raid either of us, and no way both can be in, as they think that would be most...hybrid.

They really think my DPS is higher and my buffs are higher than his buffs, but they left him in to tank the murlocs and so. I Still needed the loots from it, but as we didn't killed it yet, i can't go in until we perfect the strategy.

That said, i want to post some screenies to show u guys my performance at Gruul and Mag. Those fights i was using a Fool's bane and now i'm already with my Dragonmaw, as u can check on my armory. i'm going for screenshots because is the only thing i got, if it's not allowed or unpleasant because of the higher bandwith i apologize in advance.

I'd like to know what your opinions would be, if that level of DPS is normal or not, as i'm kinda lost as i saw people reporting higher numbers.

The Mag fight i had clicking duty as i do all the time.

Gruul Fight ------

Total DPS
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalgruul.jpg

Total Damage
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalGruul.jpg

Heal performed
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...totalgruul.jpg

My DPS total Breakdown
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...nGruulRyla.jpg

Warrior DPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ulWarrior1.jpg

Rogue 1 DPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue1.jpg

Rogue 2 DPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue2.jpg

Rogue 3 dPS Breakdown into my group
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...ruulRogue3.jpg


Mag Fight ---------

Full Damage Mag
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u.../Danototal.jpg

DPS Mag
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/Dpstotal.jpg



Here's my armory so u can quick check it. I know my trinkets sucks and i'm trying to get the badges for the Bloodlust and drop the Hourglass. My rings are not the best for the level, but couldn't get the unique prince drop ring we got.

The Armory

Sorry again for all the screenshots, but was all i had from these fights...

Last edited by T.K. : 07/31/07 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Trying to get a sequence into my script...
#934SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Having the Runic OH with a 2.7 MH is going to mess up your DPS a little bit regardless since its going to inevitably eat some WF cooldowns. You can do a bit better on a few items - for example on your Rip Flayer leggings you put in a Blue gem in order to get a +6 Stam socket bonus. That bonus isn't helping you DPS any harder though, and you'd likely be better off putting in a full DPS gem instead. On your gloves you skipped the +3 crit rating bonus though, which is worth getting since Crit Rating and Str are equivalent AEP values before BoK is taken into account, but the crit rating from the gem/bonus would likely make up for it.

Given your weapons and gear I'd say you should be doing closer to 600 DPS on Gruul, not 470. I was doing 400 DPS at the start of KZ in blues in comparison. The arena axe will give you a huge boost, and so would getting the Totem of Astral Winds. On your gruul fight it looks like you cast Healing Wave at least 3 times, maybe as many as 6. Thats a minimum of 12 seconds not DPSing, and as high as 18 seconds. That accounts for part of your DPS drop, and that's also time that you are not providing Unleashed Rage to your group.

On Mag you need to fight to not be a clicker. Ranged are able to stand right at the cube and DPS full time, putting a melee on it makes you pretty worthless in Phase 2.

On a wholly separate note, try to arrange your post into some more logical paragraphs next time. (I realize you said you're in a raid right now) Its really hard to read when ever line is separated out like that.
#935SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3T.K.
Thankx for the input and i'll try to tell why of some stuff i'm using:

First of all, the Runic Hammer was the best available offhand i could get with a decent level. I sure think it's too fast for what i want, but didn't want to get a 2.6 speed weapon as although the number of eaten procs will be fewer, the DPS dif won't be THAT great. So i forged it and working slooooowwwwlly onto my arena S2 weapon.

The blue gem into my pants where socketed because i had so little HP, and healer kept complaining that in fights like VR they had to zomghealhim!! so much that was a pain in the ass. So i stick it in to be on 9-9.5k HP buffed on raids. I understand i could have some better dps-oriented gem into that slot, but put that on purpose.

The gloves, if i'm not mistaken and didn't forgot anything, had the best rating into lootzor.com with double str gems. One of those slots is blue, so might be it...dunno.

I rerolled from my holy pally to this shammy, so i might be a little juiced into healing when things go a bit mad. I like to top myself most of the time too so i can save some healer's mana.

At Mag, most of the time i'm clicking on cube because other retards can't click a floating cube in front of them at the right time O.o And our ranged DPS aways complains that they can't stop DPSing to click it. So most of the time we have rogues, DPS warrs or me clicking it. But we do have ranged clicking too...go figures...

I basically did all this reply because i expected a dPS closer to what u said, 600, and i'm continualy getting closer to 450-485 range.

Really dunno what i'm doing wrong.
#936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Since you're taking a dps spot, plus buffing your dps group, you need to focus on dps. Healing should be something you do in emergency situations or at times when you can't get in melee range. Every time you leave Mag to go click, that's time your group isn't getting unleashed rage.

On Void Reaver, it's possible for you to take next to no damage at all. Stand in pounding range, then back out right before the pounding, then step back in so you aren't in arcane ball range. Deadly boss mods is great if you need decent timers.

You should try to pick up the 2p t4 and a helm with a meta gem. I'd suggest chest and shoulders for t4, since they're your weakest slots. That combined with the upgrades you already have planned should put you in a great spot for gear. The 2.6 offhand is a must, missing main hand windfury crits is devastating to your dps.

Also, if you're crazy like me you can drop your points in resto and put them in elemental.
#937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Only thing that really catches my eyes is that your pants are unenchanted (an easy 40 AP/10 crit rating). Are you keeping behind the target, making sure you have maximum contact time, using cooldowns appropriately (damage windows), and making sure you have the right buffs (Battle Shout, SoE, Salv, etc) maintained throughout the fight?

On a different note, after some recent upgrades (Dragonspine/Merciless Offhand), I'm having some real issues with threat, especially on trash. Part of it can be explained with half the raid using outdated threat meter mods, but not all. How do you deal with the fact that you can get this kind of uncontrollable burst at almost any time:

11:08'52.140	Magtheridon's Blast Nova hits Hortez for 2407 Fire damage
156	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2350
468	Hortez's Earth Shock hits Magtheridon for 1655 Nature damage
890	Hortez's Improved Leader of the Pack heals Hortez for 462
11:08'53.171	Hortez gains 12 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
250	Hortez gains Flurry
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 3593
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 4171
546	Hortez's Melee hits Magtheridon for 501 (glancing)
11:08'54.406	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2196
I believe it's been awhile since the main tanks have had a decent upgrade, but does tank threat scale much anyway? I try to keep a larger threat buffer between me and the tanks, but on trash, this isn't really feasible unless I want to start attacking when mobs are on 30% health. I am getting Salv (except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it).

How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat?
#938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shadow4089
here is a quick question. Shammies can use 2H weapons obv if they spec it, but how useful it is compared to duel weapons? With WF proc better with slow weapons and stuff, whats the vs. between the two or is it just more of a leveling up spec?
#939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by panny
I am getting Salv [b](except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it)[b].

How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat?
Salv. Always. If you can only get 1 pally buff it should be salv, on any fight where threat matters anyway which is just about all of them. If you're getting salv and still having consistent aggro trouble you'll probably need to look at what your tanks are doing(or not doing).
#940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3seminarca
Originally Posted by panny
does tank threat scale much anyway?
Druid threat scales well with AP and crit. Warriors will stack block value for threat.

Originally Posted by panny
I am getting Salv (except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it).
Ya there were a few attempts where it was rocky on threat even well after the last Channeler was down and the raid moved to Mag (no crits, lots of miss/dodge/parry) and I guess 1 Channeler worth of threat wasn't enough (misdirect will be useful here). No Salv would also help explain it.

Originally Posted by Shadow4089
here is a quick question. Shammies can use 2H weapons obv if they spec it, but how useful it is compared to duel weapons? With WF proc better with slow weapons and stuff, whats the vs. between the two or is it just more of a leveling up spec?
DW for PvE dps, 2h for PvP and playing around. I'm leveling a Shaman alt, and quite enjoyed the move from 2h to DW, stuff just dies so much quicker. Flurry uptime seems better (though I could be imagining it) and WF procs more consistently. 2h was way to bursty, like 2 shotting one mob then slogging at the next for 45 seconds. DW is also bursty, but not quite as much.
#941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by seminarca
Ya there were a few attempts where it was rocky on threat even well after the last Channeler was down and the raid moved to Mag (no crits, lots of miss/dodge/parry) and I guess 1 Channeler worth of threat wasn't enough (misdirect will be useful here). No Salv would also help explain it.
I think you got a Misdirect anyway? Or was that during the next go? I vaguely remember calling for it.

Originally Posted by Morelis
Salv. Always. If you can only get 1 pally buff it should be salv, on any fight where threat matters anyway which is just about all of them. If you're getting salv and still having consistent aggro trouble you'll probably need to look at what your tanks are doing(or not doing).
The channelers are really the only hard part of the fight (not including getting five people to click cubes), and since the first channeler tank usually just burns all his taunts and all the other channerler/mag tanks have lots of time to build threat, I didn't think threat would've been an issue as I really didn't expect to get a ~10k threat spike in 2 seconds. Anyway, bosses aren't that big a problem, it's trash/adds that's the biggest issue.
#942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3seminarca
Originally Posted by panny
I think you got a Misdirect anyway? Or was that during the next go? I vaguely remember calling for it.
That was on subsequent attempts.
#943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
T.K.
At Mag i have no agro issue at all. My gear is not that great, but we got 2 bears tanking first adds, so i just pop Heroism as soon as they hit em and i can go all out from that.

My legs enchant is already bought and into my bag. I really don't like those legs, so i didn't want to use the enchant on them, cause is aways was like "Today i get x legs" and kept like that for 10 days by now...meh, think i should enchant it anyway. Was hoping for a Skulker or even my T4 legs anyway...

I already have the T4 head slot into my bag, just waiting to change it once i get another set part.

About the nuke, i aways look for mob back to nuke and try to keep aways at range the fastest i can. Maybe it was just the clicking duty at that time...but i can't understand why a so low DPS on Gruul...i do the shock rotation everytime, SS and so on...dunno why is that.

So u guys think my off-hand is eating that much procs and that's why my dps is so low?

Forgot the VR arcane balls. I said to my Raid leader i was going to do that move waving and he said i wouldn't be able to avoid all them and could kill all melees, so he obliged me to stay absorving all the pouncings.

Last edited by T.K. : 07/31/07 at 4:03 AM. Reason: VR balls O.o
#944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bai
Greetings.

Finally got around to setting up my EJ profile tonight, so I only thought it proper to finally poke my head up from behind the fence and greet all my fellow Shamans-in-Arms. =)

I have been reading the boards for some time now, and have been very interested in the math and formulas everyone has been bringing to the table in helping to understand our wonky-style of DPS.
As some (to most) have been helpful, to the ideas and clearifications that I myself have come to the realizations of now; I am thankful. Keep doing the hard stuff so I can just lead my raids, and throw my farm animals at bosses.

Mushy stuff aside - I bring myself in light to the Shaman discussions to do my best to help further the understanding, and growth of our class. Do what you will with me. *bows*
And on that note: I apologize in advance for my trinkets being total suck. There are probably 4 DSTs on Lothar as a whole, and Heroics are a thing of the past which has me snuffed out shy 3 Badges for the Brooch. (Soon my darling...soon!)

note: All you leather Shamans make me giggle. ^_^*

ps: WTB Blizzard fixing Epic Gems showing up in the armory. /sigh

---

Now, to acctually be on topic. I pose this question that I may not have understood if it was discussed in earlier posts.
But it is something that I feel kind of goes against normal melee fuction.

Slower Offhand than Mainhand? ei; Dragonstike MH - Syphon of the Ninnies OH?
(Mainly; How does this effect Windfury? Swing Timers? Flurry?)
#945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3PaPa
Originally Posted by Malan
Having the Runic OH with a 2.7 MH is going to mess up your DPS a little bit regardless since its going to inevitably eat some WF cooldowns.
I'm currently gearing up for Kara and this has caused me a certain amount of consternation. Getting the arena points together for the Gladiator's axe will take me some weeks, so I've started gathering mats for a Runic Hammer in the meantime after reading the OP of this thread where it states that this is the second best OH outside of BT.

However, I'm currently using the Drakefist Hammer in my main hand, and I'm curious to know whether or not I'll get a higher overall DPS out of using one of the blue 71.7 dps heroic/battleground OHs than a Runic Hammer. Will the slower speed compensate for the 10 less dps on the weapon and the loss of AP?

I don't really want to spend any more time or gold on something that could turn out to hurt my DPS. :/
#946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I was using Dragonmaw and Runic hammer up until i got netherbane off Al'ar, so I wouldnt worry to much about using it.
#947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
@bai - Just out of curiosity, why did you put 2 points in convection instead of imp ankh?

@TK - There's a baddass leather feral druid legs that drops from the final boss of heroic mana tombs. If you're farming for your WF totem you might as well go for it. I keep trying to justify taking them off (my only leather piece), but I probably won't replace them till T6.
#948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myrhar
i posted a comment about the wrath darkmoon card then found oodles of information more than i had thought of. My biggest problem with it is that you have to not crit in order to crit....what class/spec/living being wants that? now if only we could somehow fuse the crusade card and the wrath card so there was one card that increased crit rating with each crit, stacking x amount of times over x seconds and crits renew the effect and spell and melee crit is effected individually. it would scream enh shammy. oh to dream....
on a side note thanks to all of you for the excellent work of pulling all this together. always nice to know others actually think about how they play and how to play better after playing with so many noob filled pugs.

Last edited by Myrhar : 07/31/07 at 2:52 PM. Reason: edited to not be redundant
#949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ketrew
PvP for Enhancement Shaman

*EDIT* I've moved this to the PVP thread

I'm just starting to use my Shaman for an arena team and some of my team mates are asking me to use a two handed weapon. I'd love some feedback on Two handers Vs. Duel Wield when its comes to pvp.

Tenion
Shaman - Silver Hand

Last edited by Ketrew : 07/31/07 at 5:55 PM.
#950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Two handers are good for bursting down people with healers. I usually start out with a two hander, and then switch to DW when there are no more healers.
#951SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Ketrew
I'm just starting to use my Shaman for an arena team and some of my team mates are asking me to use a two handed weapon. I'd love some feedback on Two handers Vs. Duel Wield when its comes to pvp.

Tenion
Shaman - Silver Hand
There's an entire thread devoted to this subject already over in the pvp forum.
#952SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ketrew
Originally Posted by Malan
There's an entire thread devoted to this subject already over in the pvp forum.
Thanks Malan, I'll move the question there.
#953SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by panny
Only thing that really catches my eyes is that your pants are unenchanted (an easy 40 AP/10 crit rating). Are you keeping behind the target, making sure you have maximum contact time, using cooldowns appropriately (damage windows), and making sure you have the right buffs (Battle Shout, SoE, Salv, etc) maintained throughout the fight?

On a different note, after some recent upgrades (Dragonspine/Merciless Offhand), I'm having some real issues with threat, especially on trash. Part of it can be explained with half the raid using outdated threat meter mods, but not all. How do you deal with the fact that you can get this kind of uncontrollable burst at almost any time:

11:08'52.140	Magtheridon's Blast Nova hits Hortez for 2407 Fire damage
156	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2350
468	Hortez's Earth Shock hits Magtheridon for 1655 Nature damage
890	Hortez's Improved Leader of the Pack heals Hortez for 462
11:08'53.171	Hortez gains 12 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
250	Hortez gains Flurry
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 3593
281	Hortez's Windfury Attack crits Magtheridon for 4171
546	Hortez's Melee hits Magtheridon for 501 (glancing)
11:08'54.406	Hortez's Melee crits Magtheridon for 2196
I believe it's been awhile since the main tanks have had a decent upgrade, but does tank threat scale much anyway? I try to keep a larger threat buffer between me and the tanks, but on trash, this isn't really feasible unless I want to start attacking when mobs are on 30% health. I am getting Salv (except on that Mag attempt because I assumed I wouldn't need it).

How do you better geared Shaman deal with threat?
Jesus christ! How do you get that kind of numbers with your gear (looking at the unbuffed values in your armory)? I understand it could be a rare spike, but still, I've never seen myself crit for more then 2.5k with WF, and that's with 2.8-3.2k AP raid buffed\procced.

Our last Magtheridon where I was not a clicker: WWS
(Yes, I died. I bounced straight into a cleave, but I ankhed just after and continued the fight till the end half buffed)

I have roughly the same stats as yours (my current armory profile is of my PVP stuff, so disregard that), yet I've never seen crits as high as 3000+. What am I missing?

I have the usual raid buffs and self buffs, so I'm really surprised that you manage to put out these numbers, and I'd really love to know how you do it!

Last edited by Ardonomus : 07/31/07 at 6:00 PM. Reason: Cleanup
#954SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Magtheridon takes double damage when banished. Note the Blast Nova at the top of the log.
#955SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
aiaeu
While this question has been asked in this thread it does not seem to have been answered. What value of AEP is the Crystalforged Trinket? Wowhead says that the cooldown is 1 minute although I cannot confirm myself at this point. Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft

I attempted math myself but have failed :<

I found some information on the other enhancement thread..

Bloodlust Brooch - Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft
278*(20/120) = 46.3 + 72 passive = 118.3 ap


Crystalforged Trinket - Crystalforged Trinket - Items - World of Warcraft
216*(10/60) = 36 + xxx depending on your weapons. Doing very quick math it would add at least another 5dps. 60 sec, 2.7 speed weapon, so 22 attacks per minute x 7 dam = 155 dam/60 sec = 2.59dps (if 1dps=14ap) or roughly 36ap. Using 2 weapons close to the same speed = 70ap. So approximately 106ap total.
Are these numbers correct?

Last edited by aiaeu : 07/31/07 at 7:16 PM.
#956SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaeius
I've read through all the information and I wanted to post about Romelo's Poison Vial. I'm not really the best person in the english department but I've been using the Vial for a few months now and most of the information is saved on my guild's WWS. So if someone wants to go through and try to collect the information about the vial. We have time frames, how much damage it's doing, etc if someone wants to do the math.

My character is Xaeius if you wanna check it out, so i'll go back to the shadows now and continue reading posts that are posted.

Fair warning, i'm forced to go between resto and enhancement. so i don't know what times i was resto or enhancement but it should easily tell. Also, some adviced about my gear would be pretty cool. I'm interested in obtaining better ideas of what to obtained for damage + survival.

Thanks guys

Wow Web Stats
#957SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
The vial is pretty much a known factor - it adds somewhere between 1.5-2% of your total damage, but that's dependent on the length of the fight as well. Its hard to say if we could assign a value to it.

Re: Crystalforged Trinket - there's a post somewhere in this thread or the itemization one that Nite_Moogle made I think, that did the math on the T4 4pc bonus, it would probably work in a similar sense to the +7 weapon damage. As I recall though the stormstrike benefit only amounted to around 1-2 DPS.
#958SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Krushh
Originally Posted by Malan
The vial is pretty much a known factor - it adds somewhere between 1.5-2% of your total damage, but that's dependent on the length of the fight as well. Its hard to say if we could assign a value to it.
Here's my stab at the vial:

Lets say the enh shaman does 700 dps, then 1.5 to 2% of that is 10.5 to 14 DPS.
It takes 14 attack power to equal one DPS. It should equal to 147 to 196 equivalent AP.

Hit rating is being valued at 1.4 times attack power, so that is simply 49 attack power equivalent.

When combined, the vail should be as good as 196 to 245 AP.

edit: I havn't modeled how it would change overall dps by stealing SS procs. That is a project for later time.

Last edited by Krushh : 07/31/07 at 10:43 PM.
#959SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I'm not sure that's accurate. Your equation above sets the proc up as variable dependent on your DPS, but that's not the case. It always does the same range of damage when it procs. As you become better geared the proc will become less of your total damage %, not more.
#960SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Lujaar
Magtheridon takes double damage when banished. Note the Blast Nova at the top of the log.
Aha, right. Thanks for pointing that out.
#961SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Teirz
Just wondering if anyone concerns with the weapon skills for shaman?

For slow weapon, it would normally be axe/mace/fist. If weapon skill gave a great boost on taking away the parried and dodge, how would its rating be compare to crit/ap etc?

Last edited by Teirz : 08/01/07 at 2:07 PM.
#962SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sintor
Originally Posted by Teirz
just wondering if anyone concerns with the weapon skills for shaman?

for slow weapon, it would normally be axe/mace/fist. If weapon skill gave a great boost on taking away the parried and dodge, how would its rating be compare to crit/ap etc?
Without even doing the math on it, I can tell you that there aren't really any items worth picking up that have skill rating on them, outside of one pair of gloves in Kara. Truthfully, the only time I would see it coming into play would be if you were deciding what smithing spec. weapon you wanted as an Orc Shaman.
#963SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
I think I'm fairly close to a working flurry closed form expression.

There are three attacks which can proc flurry, white crits, stormstrike crits and wf crits, the latter two don't consume charges.

So if we assume an already flurried attack, we modifiy the 3 swings to add wf and ss

The attack speed is basically

attackspeed = (ws1 + ws2) / (4 * 1.3f * (1 + haste / 100));

for two 2.6s weapons and 0 haste this is obviously 1.0s (e.g. we swing each second)

Now we do two SS attacks each 10s, so during our flurry time of 3 swings, we basically have:

ssinthree = 3 * attackspeed / 5;

wfprocprob = 0.36f

Our percentage of time, in which we can actually proc wf is defined as:
The expected time to proc WF (which is attackspeed/0.2f basically) divided by the expected time + cooldown:
wftime = (attackspeed / (wfprocprob / 2f)) / ((attackspeed / (wfprocprob / 2f)) + 3);

This basically means, that faster weapons actually increase the percentage of time, in which we can't proc windfury, basically if we expect a wf proc every 3s and have a 3s cooldown after each wf proc, the percentage is 50% (should be fine so far)


Now we add to our 3 flurry swings, the probability not to have no wf proc at all (1-(1-0.4)^(wftime*3) and our percentage of stormstrike swings in 3 normal swings.

flurryprob = (float)Math.Min(1 - Math.Pow(noncrit, 3f + 1 - Math.Pow(1 -wfprocprob, wftime * 3) + ssinthree), 1.0);

So for two 2.6s weapons, no haste = 1.0s attackspeed and a 20% wf proc rate (simplified in this example), we expect a wf proc every 5s, so the actual time we spent in "trying to get wf" is 62.5%, our ss percentage of swings is 0.6, together with 30% crit this results in:

1-(1-0.3)^(3+1-(1-wfprocprob)^(0.625*3)+0.6) = 0.77%, e.g. our flurry probability is 77%

Technically this is still not 100% correct, since stormstrike is actually more a spike (discrete) value, than a continous value. But it should do fine for now.

Some real life values I gathered:
Two 2.6s weapons, 28% crit I had on the ptr an uptime of 73%, the algo calculates (with reduced 0.36f wfprocprob) of 74.7%. Most of the difference is probably that I didn't spam Stormstrike properly

It is still not 100% perfect, but is fairly correct for usage in closed form expressions.
#964SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shikka
have 2 merciless glad and 2 syphon.

Any1 tested or have an idea whether is best to use MH/OH?

2x Syphon? 2,8speed mh/oh.

or 2,6 glad MH and 2,8 OH? In case this should do more dps?.

(Gonna test it myselv soon i guees).

But if any1 had an idea or have tested i would like to hear it.

Edit: When people do DPS They usually do it in Blast Land?.

Wondering: Why in Blasted Land? And on What Mobs?.

Seeing that the mobs dies rather fast wont that interfear with the "epxeriment"?

Last edited by Shikka : 08/01/07 at 4:14 PM.
#965SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
very cool Tornhoof, glad to see you've made significant headway on this!
#966SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Shikka
have 2 merciless glad and 2 syphon.

Any1 tested or have an idea whether is best to use MH/OH?

2x Syphon? 2,8speed mh/oh.

or 2,6 glad MH and 2,8 OH? In case this should do more dps?.

(Gonna test it myselv soon i guees).

But if any1 had an idea or have tested i would like to hear it.

Edit: When people do DPS They usually do it in Blast Land?.

Wondering: Why in Blasted Land? And on What Mobs?.

Seeing that the mobs dies rather fast wont that interfear with the "epxeriment"?
I'd suggest using the Firefox spell checker, first of all. Specific mobs in Blasted Lands don't die unless you destroy an item near them, meaning it's the best place for testing (longevity wise).
#967SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shikka
Found the mob. Weird mob xD

Now im just wondering how do u kill it?

2x Syphon with heroism/Flurry/Duel mongoose up -> 1,51speed mh/oh. Awesome.

Last edited by Shikka : 08/01/07 at 9:04 PM.
#968SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ulthan
Been linked to this thread from the EU forums.
Some damn good info here so far ^^

Since most of you seem to be around SSC-BT Raid level, and a lot of the stats i'm seeing seem quite ambitious for a Kara raider, could you take a look at my Armory (should be in the profile right) And point out where i might be going wrong?

The +6 Hit rating gems are gonna be replaced like... now. Omw to the AH now to pick up some +4 Str, +4 Crit Rating ones to fill the slots.

My main concern is my crit. Right now i have around 23%, but when i can, i plan to drop my 2 trinkets i currently have for the Bloodlust Brooch/Abacus of Violent Odds.
I've seen that the Abacus rated a little low on the AEP values, but it serves as an almost-bloodlust to push your weapon down to near 1.5 when BL is on Cooldown, and when BL isn't on cooldown, popping both at the same time can throw you down to about 1.2 (little quicker factoring in my single mongoose)
Not to mention that when you pop Bloodlust to burn the boss down quicker, such as a Curator Evocation, Bloodlust + Abacus + Bloodlust Brooch + UR + Flurry + SR. That's gotta be some nice regen for if i run dry.

Problem is, dropping both my trinkets would replace the Equip: Crit Rating bonuses with Equip: AP bonuses. Dropping my crit to a measly 20%. Using 4CR/4Str Gems would cancel this out a little, i have 4 gem slots currently, so there's a total gain of about 1% crit.
Any suggestions on how to fix that eventual problem are welcome. Also note that my cloak and boots still need Agility/Cat's Swiftness Enchants, so that should hopefully put my crit up by another 1% or so.
Still, 22% Crit unbuffed is...well, disappointing. I feel i'd need more to have UR constantly up.

Edit: I recently stopped using Romulo's Poison Vial, in favor of Bladefist's Breadth as i rarely noticed RPV proccing at all.

Edit 2: I've noticed that UptimeMeter shows only a 65% Flurry uptime. What sort of crit% should i be working towards to get this closer to 100%?

Last edited by Ulthan : 08/02/07 at 4:56 AM.
#969SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
22% crit unbuffed is fine, when I was in TK I think I only had about 23%.

Admitedly my gear went from blue -> Kara -> SSC -> BT/Hyjal.

Can someone link me the flurry uptime meter? Can't remember which page it was linked on. On that note I would be surprised if the uptime wasn't close to 95% for me.
#970SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I think it was tornhoof's addon, might just search for posts by him.
#971SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ulthan
Uptime Meter | World of Warcraft @ Curse.com

You can change the effect it tracks the uptime of by typing something like

/um effect Unleashed Rage

Glad to know my crit's not as bad as i thought it was. But the 65% flurry uptime concerns me a little nontheless. Current AP is 1148, which i plan to improve with the bloodlust brooch and Abacus. According to the info on the front page the Brooch gives equivalent to +118 AP or so. Should bump me up nicely to about 1300-1350 with the Abacus too

Last edited by Ulthan : 08/02/07 at 8:25 AM.
#972SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
belrain
I'm reading the whole thread (post 255 now :S) and I know that this thread is for high lvl shamans, but I'd like to ask you a pair of questions if you don't mind, ofc. Lots of thanks in advance.

I'm leveling a troll shaman [alt] without too much posibilities of joining raids and my guild is now begining with SSC or even make an arean team.

I'd like to know where to point my gear when I reach 70. I'm leveling blacksmithing and I've not problems to spend money in crafted items like Fel Edged Battleaxe, Runic Hammer or Vengeance Wrap.

What is a good gear for a new lvl 70?

Thank you very much.

EDIT: I've removed inet abreviations.

Last edited by belrain : 08/02/07 at 9:49 AM.
#973SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
fyi, there's a new simulator out, which has a nice GUI, and nice reporting options, but the dude has so much stuff just plain wrong in there. I'm hoping he asks for help on it (he's european, so i can't talk with him directly on forums), because it could be the nicest sim yet in terms of useability.

But the understanding of some aspects of shaman mechanics is pretty dismal.

Shamulator: DPS Sim for Enhance Shammies
#974SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Gah, why do people insist on programming with .NET. It kills platform portability.


Originally Posted by belrain
What is a good gear for a new lvl 70?
Click the Lootzor link on the first post and set it for the Low raid setting and it'll give you KZ epics and blues from instances.
After you've done that I'd suggest editing your post so that it doesn't have things like "u" "thx" and other internet abbreviations.
#975SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3belrain
Originally Posted by Malan
Gah, why do people insist on programming with .NET. It kills platform portability.
java for the win

Originally Posted by Malan
Click the Lootzor link on the first post and set it for the Low raid setting and it'll give you KZ epics and blues from instances.
I tried to use when I readed the 1st post but I was not too much focused, I'll try again. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Malan
After you've done that I'd suggest editing your post so that it doesn't have things like "u" "thx" and other internet abbreviations.
I'm Sorry, I'll edit the previous when I post this one.
#1001SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Morelis
I just can't see the Syphon proc as being any good, judging from a WWS of our last BT, out of 5,740,397 damage it contributed just 23,606, 0.4%. As far as I know because of WF we get fairly equal MH/OH proc rates so even with 2 of them it would still likely be <1% of your total damage. I'd wager the extra hit rating on rising tide or the haste proc on Dragonstrike both easily outweigh it.
I think the .2 additional speed makes it worthwhile. Harder WFs and SS's add up.
#1002SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
I have 1 Syphon and I never saw the proc happening while the leech was active, but I had it proccing right after the leech ended. I think it has a 6sec internal cooldown / hand.
#1003SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3The Omen
Hedin I love you thanks for the mod keep us updated

Cheers


~Omenx
#1004SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Hedin
Now my WF3sec addon can be downloaded from Ace2 site
It has some new stuff:
- SS cooldown timer next to WF timer
- Some DPS Buff timers
- Realtime Melee Stats showing
- OMG, you can now move bars by /wf3sec command
- I added a fix for a high ping WF cooldown overlapping


PHP >> all
Is there a way to either a) remove the melee stats/buff window, or b) just remove the buff portion of the window? I don't mind seeing the melee stats, but as it is right now I'm not interested in the buff timer.
#1005SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Not sure if its possible on this forum, but it may be worth asking for one of the mods to merge in a new blank post under the 1st one, i've done it on one of old guild forums so I would assume its still possible.
Its kind of "hush hush" so I can't talk much about it yet, but in the next week or so you'll see the results of a new project here on EJ that won't make this thread necessary anymore

@Hedin - yah all those other bars really need a way to get turned on/off though since 99% of the population already have their full buff list displayed somewhere else on their UI. I really don't need to see the exact same info right smack in the middle of my screen. Otherwise your addon adds some decently useful info. The things like the stormstrike debuff (and presumably flameshock?) are also available through the Quartz cast bar options. Basically you should make every single facet of that mod able to be turned off individually.
#1006SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I think the .2 additional speed makes it worthwhile. Harder WFs and SS's add up.
Even over Dragonstrike? Since it's only a .1 additional speed, 50AP and 3.6dps over Dragonstrike, and you'd lose the 212 haste rating proc.

Originally Posted by Morelis
I've measured the uptime for the Dragonstrike proc at about 40%, which would give it value equal to 85 passive haste rating. A weapon would need 170 ap worth of stats to match it. The +3 dps would cancel some of that out, but not enough.
In my eyes that looks like one nice mace if this is true..
#1007SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dakashi
I've been using the mod WFCooldown to track my windfury cooldowns. It displays the 3 second cooldown and nothing else - pretty simple.

I think Hedin's mod has more going for it with the DPS stats window. I'd like to have that up to see the variation in my weapon speeds, as well as how high my AP spikes. Now if I could only turn off everything else... =)
#1008SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaanix
Originally Posted by Malan
It took me 6 weeks to get the Astral Winds, running it every single day. Hang in there.
11% drop rate my ass.
Ouch.. i got mine on my second attempt..
#1009SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
Its kind of "hush hush" so I can't talk much about it yet, but in the next week or so you'll see the results of a new project here on EJ that won't make this thread necessary anymore
You mean the wikipedia style thing you already mentioned in a thread?
#1010SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I said its hush hush, jeez!
#1011SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Even over Dragonstrike? Since it's only a .1 additional speed, 50AP and 3.6dps over Dragonstrike, and you'd lose the 212 haste rating proc.
Sorry for being slightly vague, I was referring to Syphon over Tide.
#1012SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Magna_FA
I got my second syphon this week as well and I saw a significant dps boost. There is something to be said about having 2 of the same speed weapons, and them being 2.8 speed is a bonus. And no, they just refresh the buff.
#1013SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Socratez
been reading this thread for a while now and i check it for updates almost everday, tnx all for ur input. learned some very usefull stuff. still have a few questions i've had to ask "to make sure" and would appriciate some replies.

- my raidleader(s) always put me in our tankgrp so i can use goa for our tanks (i am the only enh-shammy in our guild atm) i will talk to em about this soon, coz imo it would be better to put me in a (melee)dpsgrp. allthough i must say it mostly consists of: ret-pally,1/2rogue(s), 1/2 bmhunter(s), sometimes druid/fury-warr. so maybe i should talk to em about that as well, so we can get a more effictive dpsgrp (always: me, furywarr, druid, 1/2 rogues, ret-pally?). i've read some things about this and i think that i have quite a good view about it, but its not rly clear, so i would love to hear some thoughts about this plz.

-Should hunters/rogues/enh-shammys get pref over some drops or let all just roll on items they think r a upgrade? we dont use dkp since tbc..

- hit%? i've read all about it here and dropped some +hit for ap (had "enough" crit anyway)
I tested it (not like some ppl here did, i just did some raids with a bit diff-gear) from 215 thil 150, and around 175 rly seemed the best dps for me (have +9% from talents ofc).
am i just wrong about this or is there some explanation?


btw i have kara/gruul-gear atm, may be usefull to know (or not), also: armory may show pvp/arenagear, coz sometimes i switch between arena/pve-spec...

also: this is my 1st post on a wow-forum oO

Last edited by Socratez : 08/03/07 at 2:40 AM.
#1014SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
The only reason I could see to have a enhancement shaman in the with MT, is because he has poor threat gen and needs the extra AP, that said its still not very useful, and WF totem for the tank would still be better imo.

As for your group, any dps warrior should always be with you, likewise all the rogues and if their is still space a feral.

Ret palas, I dont know, we have never used one other than pissing about in SSC, and he isnt geared to the best standard, they don't bring anything to a group setup, similar to rogues but with a hell of a lot less damage. BM hunters are good, but again rogues/warriors will gain far more from you.

As for loot, do you /random on all loot? If so that must be a horrible system, we dont use dkp, but our loot is assigned by a loot council according to upgrade size, attendance and ability.
#1015SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Ok ok, I'll make an option to disable Buffbars and Melee frame, and maybe add some switches for adding/deleting buffs for my Buffbars :-)
#1016SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I looked at WFCooldown and didn't find high ping correction of WF cooldown...
#1017SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
WF3sec update:
After next sinc from dev to files.wowace.com there will be 2 toggles for MeleeFrame and Buffbars :-)
Requests for new features and bugfixes are welcome...
#1018SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Bai
My Tide...

Naj finally dropped the Rising Tide for me tonight.
As updated to my Armory; I'm using Dragonstrike and Rising Tide.
When I get some new WWS posted with it, I'll throw it up for y'all to see. Overall, it's only going to be about a 4-6dps increase and a nice "ssschllluch" slicing sound. I can't argue with it though. It just looks so damn pretty.

@ Earlier Question: I have 2/5 Convection because I've been in debt and unable to spec into Imp Ankh. But I am going to very soon. When I was less geared I was running some numbers on shock dps and efficiency.
Thusly, trying to get them as cheap as I could but keeping my Resto points.
Honestly, I'd rather put 2 more into Dodge. - I end up (on purpose) dodge tanking Necromancers in Hyjal, or random mobs in BT tend to love aggroing me.

@Hedin : Gonna give your addon a whirl. =)

Last edited by Bai : 08/03/07 at 6:56 AM.
#1019SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Belt of Hundreds Death, which drops from Lady Vashj, have 25 weapon rating for mace.
I find this useful esp for troll/tauren shaman who has innately no additional weapon skill point. And from what i know, the first 5 point of weapon skills benefits the most, which seems like giving at least 3% additional dps from reducing miss, dodged, and increased crit.

Does anyone bother to pick up this item and test it out? For e.g. compare to Belt of the black eagle or any belt that's SSC/TK equivalence.
#1020SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Anyone know if this mob Haalum - NPCs - World of Warcraft in ShadowMoon valley is immune to hits if you don't kill the totems, or will it still register the damage done?

Edit - nvm found a screenshot that shows he's immune.
#1021SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Hedin
WF3sec update:
After next sinc from dev to files.wowace.com there will be 2 toggles for MeleeFrame and Buffbars :-)
Requests for new features and bugfixes are welcome...
Thanks Hedin, you're a peach. Keep up the good work.
#1022SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Teirz
Belt of Hundreds Death, which drops from Lady Vashj, have 25 weapon rating for mace.
I find this useful esp for troll/tauren shaman who has innately no additional weapon skill point. And from what i know, the first 5 point of weapon skills benefits the most, which seems like giving at least 3% additional dps from reducing miss, dodged, and increased crit.

Does anyone bother to pick up this item and test it out? For e.g. compare to Belt of the black eagle or any belt that's SSC/TK equivalence.
Didnt they change the weapon skill mechanism in TBC to only work as a percentage based increase to hit and crit?

Oh, and to Hedin, when I downloaded your addon I just commented out the buffs I didn't want to show.
#1023SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
There's a thread on the weapon skill stuff, I believe the conclusion they reached was that the blue post that supposedly clarified the new weapon skill was not very accurate.
[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
#1024SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Ret palas, I dont know, we have never used one other than pissing about in SSC, and he isnt geared to the best standard, they don't bring anything to a group setup, similar to rogues but with a hell of a lot less damage. BM hunters are good, but again rogues/warriors will gain far more from you.
The improved Sanc aura gives the party 2% more damage done! The Imp JoC gives the whole raid +3% crit.

If it's a good player, I'd say it's OK to use one(This can be said about most "offspecs").
#1025SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Oh, and to Hedin, when I downloaded your addon I just commented out the buffs I didn't want to show.
Thats the easy way :-)
Maybe I'll add to commands...
#1026SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Socratez
Originally Posted by Stigmata
The only reason I could see to have a enhancement shaman in the with MT, is because he has poor threat gen and needs the extra AP, that said its still not very useful, and WF totem for the tank would still be better imo.

As for your group, any dps warrior should always be with you, likewise all the rogues and if their is still space a feral.

Ret palas, I dont know, we have never used one other than pissing about in SSC, and he isnt geared to the best standard, they don't bring anything to a group setup, similar to rogues but with a hell of a lot less damage. BM hunters are good, but again rogues/warriors will gain far more from you.

As for loot, do you /random on all loot? If so that must be a horrible system, we dont use dkp, but our loot is assigned by a loot council according to upgrade size, attendance and ability.

Thanks for the response. I will make sure i will be in a dpsgrp soon. As for the ret pally, he is very well geared compared to other ppl, so he does very decent dps (yes really).

Yeah our loot is assigned by a council as well, i was mostly just curious if generally u guys get equal chances to get leather gear, because rogues get pref over me most times ( and i want gruul-belt, maggy-gloves..)

Last edited by Socratez : 08/13/07 at 3:17 AM.
#1027SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Morelis
I've measured the uptime for the Dragonstrike proc at about 40%, which would give it value equal to 85 passive haste rating. A weapon would need 170 ap worth of stats to match it. The +3 dps would cancel some of that out, but not enough.
This reply to an earlier post I made got me thinking today, how would you convert an increase in weapon dps to ap values? Just a simple 3 times 14 leading to a roughly 42 ap worth of stats or am I off on this?

Something tells me it should be lower then this, and dependant on if the weapon will be main handed or offhanded, considering weapon dps only applies on the hand the weapon is wielded in. Not being much of a math genius doesn't help for this
#1028SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Standard conversion from total attack power to weapon bonus is 14 AP yields 1 DPS. It had been proposed in this thread that the Weapon Mastery talent actually reduces this to around 12.5 for enhance shaman. So to add 3 DPS to a weapon would require about 37.5 AP.
edit - to clarify, this is simply to add +3 DPS on the char screen for the weapon

Last edited by Malan : 08/03/07 at 1:16 PM.
#1029SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Weapon characteristics are hard.

AP gets shared with a variety of factors, it's affected by crit, hit, haste, offhand weapon, and has special characteristics for windfury attacks.

Also, you couldn't convert mainhand dps into AP, because AP increases affect both hands.

Probably the best thing to do would be run the simulators for a weapon of constant speed, but higher and higher dps, and see what happens.
#1030SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I think i'll split my addon on WF3sec, MeleeFrame and MeleeBuffs :-)
#1031SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Anyone want me to add Shamanistic Rage next to SS cooldown timer? ^-)
#1032SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I think you're really just duplicating info that's already readily available at this point. You've got a winner with the WF cooldown bar, a bar that shows the WF totem effect perhaps for the totem twisting guys, and the weapon stats. Everything else is very likely in someone's addon list already.
#1033SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Disquette
Weapon characteristics are hard.

AP gets shared with a variety of factors, it's affected by crit, hit, haste, offhand weapon, and has special characteristics for windfury attacks.

Also, you couldn't convert mainhand dps into AP, because AP increases affect both hands.

Probably the best thing to do would be run the simulators for a weapon of constant speed, but higher and higher dps, and see what happens.
Aye, I figured as much. My main concern was more if a weapon like Netherbane with superior stats would make a better offhand then a Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver/whatever the mace was called for instance due to the stat buff affecting the main hand as well. (Well until a say, Syphon is acquired).

Considering offhand damage is halved the damage loss shouldn't be overly big when wielding a Netherbane, and the Gladiator stuff having stats wasted on pvp stuff, it just makes me wonder. If any is better I doubt the difference to be huge, but any difference for the better is good in my book.
#1034SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Actually that reminds me. Let's address for a moment which weapons in SSC/TK one should replace the Season 2 weapons with? I have the Netherbane in my offhand, but passed up a second one last night to retain the Gladiator in the MH. I hope I didn't make a mistake.
#1035SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan
I think you're really just duplicating info that's already readily available at this point. You've got a winner with the WF cooldown bar, a bar that shows the WF totem effect perhaps for the totem twisting guys, and the weapon stats. Everything else is very likely in someone's addon list already.
It's realy helpfull to have SS cooldown next to WF cooldown when you DPS in raids and I love It more and more...
#1036SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Hedin
It's realy helpfull to have SS cooldown next to WF cooldown when you DPS in raids and I love It more and more...
It's all about playstyle. Personally I have all my cooldown-abilities on a bar (SS, Trinkets, SR, BL etc) with a cooldowncounter addon. I liked your addon due to the WF cooldown bar, most of the other things just cludder up my screen, and in the version I was using (at work for two weeks now) I couldnt move the buff bars in-game which was annoying. As Malan says, the other things are most likely covered by some other addon that's already in the game.

Let's get back on the topic of the thread though. Has anyone checked the 12.5AP = 1DPS by swapping out something with 6str or 12 AP to see the ~1DPS difference, (I'm at work as stated, can't check myself, sadly) or is this just speculation? Shouldn't it be easy to verify this, or am I missing something?

That weapon skill topic confuses the hell out of me. Meh.
#1037SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Hedin the Stormstrike cooldown bar is triggering whenever I cast Water Shield.
#1038SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
That weapon skill topic confuses the hell out of me. Meh.
Well cause it did bothers me a lot too.
I did read thru that rogue/warrior weapon skill thread, which is why it bothers me a lot esp when i'm a tauren shaman with only 350 weapon skill instead of an orc shaman who has innately better weapon skill on axe.

That belt i mentioned before, will increase mace weapon skill by ard 6.3 point, which will put you as if you are attacking a level 72 mob if it's a boss, resulting in a huge boost on dps as it is the first 5 point of weapon skill. And as far as i know that first 5 weapon skill point really worth a lot. But when we are trying to factor in that first 5 point, how would each point worth compare to AP/crit/Str etc?

And if it really improve the hit rate just like rogue/war, i would see that this belt from vashj is even better than boneweaver girdle.
Just my thought, still pushing my guild at morogrim then vashj thou :S
#1039SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan
Hedin the Stormstrike cooldown bar is triggering whenever I cast Water Shield.
Yep, it's because of the Global Cooldown (1.5 sec) after each spellcast :-)
#1040SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gulvan
I dont want this to seem like a "hey im new tell me what i should do post", but after reading the theory craft I am really interested in the syphon. I would have been able to pick it up when it dropped for us, but I thought that it wouldnt be a good replacement for rising tide or my dragonstrike. However if it drops again, im going to grab it and do some tests on it as a OH and MH.

Also, I have a armor penetration neck. I used to have the pendent of the perliess, but i have seen my dps increase with the new neck on some hits it has increase by 50-150 dmg. Now I dont know what the other raid factors where like sunders expose etc. But I have seen my dps increase overtime by a noticeable margin. Just like to share my experience(sorry no raw numbers).
#1041SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Gorlek
There is some amazing new info for Enhancement straight from Blizzcon (I almost wet my pants when reading these!!!). Note that none of this is official, so don't take it to the bank, just yet.



1. Two-handed weapons appears to be trainable, and its old talent slot has been replaced by:

"Shamanistic Focus (one point)
After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a focused state. The focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%."

DSC00104.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

DSC00112.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



2. Mental Quickness has been changed to read

"Reduces the mana cost of your next instant cast spell by 6% and increases your spell damage and healing by an amount equal to 30% of your attack power."

DSC00106.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



3. Spirit weapons now reduces threat by 20%, up from 15%.

Screenshot was too blurry on this one.



4. For you PvP Shaman, I saved the best for last:

"Shamanistic Rage (1 point)

Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to generate mana equal to 15% of your attack power. Lasts 30 secs."

DSC00105.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting








If all this is true and is coming soon, I am extremely excited to see the outcomes!!!! A fully raid-buffed enhancement Shaman should see anywhere from 600-1000 +dmg, making those previously non-scaling shocks hit significantly harder (and they will be much cheaper, to boot!!!)


For the pvp scene (and in many, many raid scenarios), the change to Shamanistic Rage will be pure awesome insanity, much like Rogues popping Evasion and Cloak of Shadows.



With all the added spell damage, we could be looking at a total change to Enhancement raiding mechanics. Where dual WF slow/slow was king, Flametongue and Frostbrand might be making an exciting comeback, allowing us to not be pigeonholed into extremely slow weapon choices!!! Healing stream and searing totem will also be much more powerful, perhaps making many of us switch over to Elemental for our off-talents for the extra shock and fire totem ownage.

Last edited by Gorlek : 08/04/07 at 7:20 AM. Reason: Needed to tidy things up a bit
#1042SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
Wow. I didn't expect anything close to those changes.
#1043SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I want them!!! I want them NOW, not in the middle of the Winter :-(
Rage buff was expected, but we still don't have a CC or antiCC...

WF3sec update:
- MeleeFrame and MeleeBuffs deleted
- Added Shocks and Rage cooldown timers
- You can now toggle all cooldowns by /wf3sec cmd.
#1044SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
With grounding totem and eartshock I'd say we are the kings of anti-cc. Not to mention we kite better than any hunter.
#1045SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Aeolian
Well those changes are definitely interesting looking. Shows some promise.

I'd be interested to see how much it effects Frostbrand and Flametongue and if its enough for us to start using it over Windfury. For some reason I doubt it.
#1046SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Capital
With grounding totem and eartshock I'd say we are the kings of anti-cc.
Say that to rogues :-)
#1047SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaro
Originally Posted by Teirz
But when we are trying to factor in that first 5 point, how would each point worth compare to AP/crit/Str etc?
Here is something from my guild forums.

So in terms of reducing the miss chance, this is how much HR and WSR is needed to achieve the same result in relation to each other.

Weapon Skill <='+5'
3.9 WSR = 9.48 HR

Weapon Skill >'+5'
3.9 WSR = 1.58 HR

If you consider dodges just as bad as misses then it would come down to.

Weapon Skill <='+5'
3.9 WSR = 10.744 HR

Weapon Skill >'+5'
3.9 WSR = 2.844 HR

Now you should also consider that WSR also increases your critical strike chance and reduces the parry rate. Giving WSR even more value then I have written so far.
I know it doesn't quite answer your question entirely and I can't really vouch for how accurate this is either. But, I believe it to be good information anyway.
#1048SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Wow those changes are amazing. o.O
By just swapping weapon an enh shaman can get to 1.2k healing with that buff!

Thanks Xaro for the info, which is quite align with my thoughts .
And yes i would consider dodged is as bad as miss. As it doesn't only affect your white dps, WF can also be dodged and parried etc. By raising your weapon skill, each AP will worth even more value compare to other stats.

Hope that i can get the belt soon and test it out.
#1049SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Wow. I didn't expect anything close to those changes.
My thoughts exactly.
#1050SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
It will be very interesting to see if flametongue is now a viable offhand enchant. maybe I'll update the mod.

I would use flameshock on crits, but never earth shock (still need to provide the earthstrike bonus to the elemental shammies). However, in pvp, the reduced mana and up'd dps from shocks will be really nice.

Shamanistic rage... I'm not sure about when you'd use it? Maybe during an earthquake from doomwalker, aoe dmg mobs, or other predictable damage source?

I'm very happy with these updates, but i'd love them now instead of later. Perhaps I should have grabbed a karazan dagger :-)
#1051SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
It will be very interesting to see if flametongue is now a viable offhand enchant. maybe I'll update the mod.

I would use flameshock on crits, but never earth shock (still need to provide the earthstrike bonus to the elemental shammies). However, in pvp, the reduced mana and up'd dps from shocks will be really nice.

Shamanistic rage... I'm not sure about when you'd use it? Maybe during an earthquake from doomwalker, aoe dmg mobs, or other predictable damage source?

I'm very happy with these updates, but i'd love them now instead of later. Perhaps I should have grabbed a karazan dagger :-)

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#1052SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Disquette
It will be very interesting to see if flametongue is now a viable offhand enchant. maybe I'll update the mod.

I would use flameshock on crits, but never earth shock (still need to provide the earthstrike bonus to the elemental shammies). However, in pvp, the reduced mana and up'd dps from shocks will be really nice.

Shamanistic rage... I'm not sure about when you'd use it? Maybe during an earthquake from doomwalker, aoe dmg mobs, or other predictable damage source?

I'm very happy with these updates, but i'd love them now instead of later. Perhaps I should have grabbed a karazan dagger :-)

You'll probably find a better level 80 blue quest reward, I wouldnt worry too much about it

Let's hope the information is true..
#1053SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gorlek
My guess would be that these changes aren't going to wait for the expansion, but were in Blizzard's latest build when they connected to the expansion realms for Blizzcon. We can only hope that they would ship with 2.2, after the testing for in-game voice chat is complete.
#1054SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Yah, exactly Gorlek. I felt like I got the shaft a little bit when AQ and other items were updated with better stats after I'd passed on them because they didn't fit my rogue with their initial stat composition.

I'd like to avoid a similar situation this time around. With most of my guild in Hyjal/BT gear, getting a nice dagger from heroic rewards or karazan doesn't seem to be a horrible idea for the "just in case" scenario.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#1055SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ frmorrison
Originally Posted by Disquette
It will be very interesting to see if flametongue is now a viable offhand enchant. maybe I'll update the mod.
30% of AP turning into damage seems to be really nice, especially if it makes Enh Shaman not locked into just using slow off-hands (more choices are good!), and to have a reason to use something other than Wind fury.

The PTR is not updated, so I wonder when this is going to happen.


The use of Shaman Rage would be just to use it like you do now, I don't think waiting to use it (like during Earthquake or before a Shatter) would be worth it in the long run.
#1056SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
I think the threat aspect might get seriously out of hand with 30% AP -> +dmg when shocking.
I rather would have liked some active thread reduction, like that -30% Dmg with Sham Rage, just with threat instead.

Anyway frostbrand or flametongue on OH might be a working alternative with these talents, for MH I don't think it will do more dmg than WF

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#1057SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Wow. These changes will be awsome. Inc theorycraft!!!! Maybe these changes will make them take MP/5 off T6 and put on something useful... Find a T6 vendor!

Hoping they tweak elemental/resto as well. Maybe convert ToW to plain 6% crit.
#1058SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Ok, I updated an older (but probably 90% accurate) version of my code, since I ran over my laptop that has the most recent versions with my truck. oops.

Here's the setup:
Test 1 and 2
AP 2500 (before UR, but after totems, etc)
Crit 32%
Hit 16% (inc talents)
Glance 24% @ 24% reduction
Dodge 6%
Test 1
MH - 97.5 2.6speed Gladiator Cleaver w/WF
OH - 97.7 1.5speed Galdiator Bonecracker w/FT
Test 2
MH - 97.5 2.6speed Gladiator Cleaver w/WF
MH - 97.5 2.6speed Gladiator Cleaver w/WF


Test 3 and 4 - Heroics Gear
AP 1500 (before UR, but after totems, etc)
Crit 26%
Hit 16% (inc talents)
Glance 24% @ 24% reduction
Dodge 6%
Test 1
MH - 97.5 2.6speed Gladiator Cleaver w/WF
OH - 97.7 1.5speed Galdiator Bonecracker w/FT
Test 2
MH - 97.5 2.6speed Gladiator Cleaver w/WF
MH - 97.5 2.6speed Gladiator Cleaver w/WF

Great Gear
Test 1: 787dps
Test 2: 830dps
Heroics Gear
Test 3: 587 dps
Test 4: 586 dps

So we've learned what we already know - WF scales. The new MQ talent for flame tongue weapon scales nicely with AP, but it doesn't scale with melee crit. The Great Gear tests would probably look a lot more like the Heroics Gear test if I didn't increase the crit rate at the same time I upped the AP level.

I don' t have any FT resists modeled in here, but I do have the 30% MQ bonus and elemental weapons factored in. Also, since I don't have resists, I also put the crit rate for FT at 0% in order to make up for that a little. Also of note, with the new MQ bonus, you make up 20dps from flame shock (800 dmg * 30% / 12 seconds).

This sim is not the latest and greatest, but it's pretty close probably. We'll have to see if real world testing bears this out.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#1059SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
I think the threat aspect might get seriously out of hand with 30% AP -> +dmg when shocking.
I rather would have liked some active thread reduction, like that -30% Dmg with Sham Rage, just with threat instead.

Anyway frostbrand or flametongue on OH might be a working alternative with these talents, for MH I don't think it will do more dmg than WF
Threat reduction is going from 15% to 20%, but I very rarely have issues with threat, tank threat gen is really good, if yours isn't sort him out.
#1060SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
WF3sec is now cut in 3 pieces: WF3sec, MeleeBuffs and MeleeFrame.
Working on WFtotem...

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
#1061SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3slant
We still don't know how spells and abilities will be changed in the expansion patch. For example, flametongue's coefficient may be raised. But it's definitely a nice start. Synergy with elemental/resto was really lacking before. Also I didn't expect them to buff enhancement's actual damage, that's a nice surprise.

Hopefully some of those unknowns will help out enhance shamans in heroics and 10mans, which is where we're truly lacking in 2.1.
#1062SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Ryjaek
Does Elemental Devastation trigger from Flametongue? I cant test it on my shaman (low level=no gold for respecs), but if so, it might add a lot to the viability of an Ele/Enh build.
#1063SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Weem
I know there has been some talk about modeling armor penetration effects in this thread. World of Raids is reporting a new enchant from Zul'Aman with that efffect:
New Enchant: Executioner -- Zul'Aman
- Armor Penetration proc (proc rate similar to mongoose)
Use: Learn how to permanently enchant a Melee Weapon to occasionally ignore 840 of your ennemy's armor. Requires a level 35 or higher item.

I'd be interested to see from those who are much smarter than I how this stacks up against mongoose.
#1064SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
I just want to go on record as saying that I called the AP -> Heal conversion months ago.

__________________
[Castille] I WOULD HEAL BUT IT RESETS MY SWING TIMER
#1065SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I just want to go on record as saying that I called the AP -> Heal conversion months ago.
Yeah, that's amusing. on short burst heal fights you'd want might instead of Wisdom :-)

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#1066SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Igniter
I'd be interested to see from those who are much smarter than I how this stacks up against mongoose.
Too early to speculate.

I'll be using a WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator spec lujar. I find the second/third tiers to be quite unimpressive for dps. Using all the necessary enh talents, you only get a single point into elemental devastation. Although, I'd be interested to see how it fairs when you remove two points from the new mental quickness to devastation. We all dismiss elemental because of the 3% hit (including spell) from resto, but considering the gear level is ramping up (and draenei have 1% spell hit passive) I could see an elemental spec being viable. This could be especially true if the -ac enchant is as good as it's being hyped up to be, losing one or possibly two mongoose enchants hurts the crit chance.

Last edited by Igniter : 08/04/07 at 7:47 PM.
#1067SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
Disquette - If your test includes a 24% glance rate, and doesn't include spell crits or spell resists, your sim probably shows flametongue performing better than it would in actual play. Against a raid boss an enh shaman can expect spells to resist a lot more often than they crit.

I think we can conclude that slow/slow WF/WF is still best in epic gear, as you said. I'd be interested to see how slow/fast WF/FT performs against slow/slow-but-crappy WF/WF though. For example, WF/FT Decapitator/Emerald Ripper vs WF/WF Decapitator/Boggspine Knuckles.

Is the version of the sim you used publicly available?



Also, about the AP => spell damage conversion, a shaman with 2200 AP could expect to gain 284 damage on each shock. It seems like that, combined with increased mana efficiency from Shamanistic Focus, would make a 16/45/0 build worth re-evaluating. Thoughts anyone?

Last edited by Lujaar : 08/04/07 at 6:29 PM.
#1068SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Let's set a couple ground rules from here on out for this thread, in a gentleman's agreement fashion:

We should avoid speculaton about changes we'd like to see or how things will be at level 80 since we have no information about those aspects of our class/talent tree yet.

Theorycrafting about the talent changes shown at blizzcon should focus on right now at level 70, with current itemization.

Also, continue to keep the PvP stuff in the PvP forum.

Can we all agree to that?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"

Last edited by Malan : 08/04/07 at 11:35 PM.
#1069SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Ryjaek
Does Elemental Devastation trigger from Flametongue? I cant test it on my shaman (low level=no gold for respecs), but if so, it might add a lot to the viability of an Ele/Enh build.
Unfortunately no. I tested that out a while ago when I got my darkmoon fairy card. I was hoping that I could offhand FT and use it to proc ED to boost my crits, but it didn't work. I can understand blizzards reasoning for this, though. A fast offhand with FT and haste effects could give almost a permanent 9% crit bonus.

I'm hoping since they're releasing a new 25 man raid dungeon before xpac2 comes out, we'll see these changes sooner and not later.

19/42/0 is a good spec already. I have no clue where I'm going to pull the points for mental quickness from and still get elemental devastation. I'm liking these changes more and more, it's been a long time since I had a hard decision about where to use talent points. Kudos to blizzard.

PS. Hedin, I just started to use wf3sec and I'm never looking back. You're my hero.
#1070SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
We can expect better itemized gear I think, this is a statement from a dev at the itemization panel.
[i] now play a shaman to work on their itemization

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1071SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
Hmm, that is interesting though. At least there is an alternative to WF in the offhand. Even though we lose out on a little dps, it might outweigh the effort in getting the arena mainhand as our only viable upgrade from runic hammer till A'lar or hyjal.

These changes surprised me a lot, showing that Blizzard is at least understanding our core issues and seeing through the drama and stupidity of their forums. I thought these changes were rather intelligent. Im still waiting to wake up from this dream of shaman lovin :P
#1072SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Disquette - did your sim test above include an assumption that Curse of Elements and Improved Scorch debuffs are on the mob?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1073SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Replica
What are people's thoughts on spell crit now for raiding? I've been playing around with a sort of a 24/37 suicide spec, i guess, for shits and giggles in pvp and i quite like the extra damage potential, despite the mana issues (i refuse to pot in pvp!). With the new changes i'm seeing spell crit being potentially more useful as people might (unless i'm severely undervaluing Nature's Guidance) switch to 18/43 builds or some variant.

Obviously we're gonna lack a little by choosing Shamanistic Rage over Elemental Fury in terms of valuing spell crit and thus shock DPS. Or will we? If our shocks are consistently cheaper by a large amount, and a lot bigger, will we even need SR to keep our mana up if we're still chugging mana pots? If not, then 21/40 might be the way to go, and dare i say it but perhaps a little MP5 wouldn't go amiss.

At the same time though i know all too well that a lot of my shocks do get resisted. I'll admit ignorance on spell resist mechanics and whatnot, but if we're gonna be seeing a lot of resists on our shocks (it feels as though every other shock i cast on Aran is a resist) then this might be in vain.
#1074SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Relwin
Shaman scaling in multiple directions is always the way I thought it just should have been. (AQ Stormcaller set will back me up on this) It lets use such a varied amount of itemization that we can tailor our DPS to come form multiple sources and eventually equal out to a similiar value with some quick gear swaps or a slight change in skills used. All in all, it makes us just feel more 'hybridy' when we can get meaningful contributions from basically all stats.


fake edit: they should make spell damage scale all of the weapon enchants in some way to encourage use across the board (and maybe make rockbiter into an armor penetration enchant for hits from that hand since they can do it ala that new enchant)

__________________
Dear Blizzard, Please to be fixing my shaman. Thanks in advance.
#1075SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Nah, my test didn't include the debuffs on the mob which would make flametongue look better. I considered it, but as Lujaar pointed out, I already have it performing higher than it should due to resists. Also, I assumed a 23% dmg reduction due to armor, which is probably on the high side, so I'm undervaluing the melee aspects (probably) a little already.

I'm pretty sure testing at this point would show that wf/wf slow/slow is still the way to go.

I really do like the changes though, and hope they're put in the game sooner than later.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#1076SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Relwin
Madness of the Betrayer proc if I'm remembering rightly.

edit: nope, just the red skull thing

Last edited by Relwin : 08/05/07 at 3:33 AM.
#1077SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kegsta
wow, great changes for enchancement, attack power = spell damage is exactly what was needed. Searing totem and healing stream will actually be useful, and shocks scaling with AP, flametounge might actually be useful aswell. Trainable 2 handers could open the door for some intresting caster/healing 2 handers aswell.

Going for the elemental / enhance build will be much more viable aswell, although i would like a subtlty for all damage in low resto much like druids get.

I hope the rest of the class gets similar treatment (% of your spell damage added to totem of wrath, healing to mana spring)
#1078SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
The new -60% mana to shocks after a melee crit talent seems odd to me..

At present it's not needed for pve (except maybe on kaz'rogal :p), and it's sorta nice for pvp, but still, most of my mana goes to purge spam and totems there.

So what exactly is the point of it? Perhaps I'm being optimistic but could it perhaps be the first step in changing itemization for enhancement shamans? Removing the need for int/mp5 on gear as a precursor to giving us mail gear with fully melee dps oriented stats and no wasted points on int/mp5?

I'm probably being too hopeful though ><
#1079SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
The new -60% mana to shocks after a melee crit talent seems odd to me..

At present it's not needed for pve (except maybe on kaz'rogal :p), and it's sorta nice for pvp, but still, most of my mana goes to purge spam and totems there.

So what exactly is the point of it? Perhaps I'm being optimistic but could it perhaps be the first step in changing itemization for enhancement shamans? Removing the need for int/mp5 on gear as a precursor to giving us mail gear with fully melee dps oriented stats and no wasted points on int/mp5?

I'm probably being too hopeful though ><
It will most likely be incredibly useful for me, as our Paladins never put up JoW, as I can run OOM very fast if I go full out on shocks. Which is what they might be aiming for here.
#1080SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Rob
Anyone know any other items/procs that cause the red glow that shamans can equip?
The [Ogre Mauler's Badge]. The /use makes you all red as well. Not that its a particulary good trinket but yeah.
#1081SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
Unless my math calculations are all messed up, with the new MQ talent FT with a fast OH weapon can outdamage WF in some cases. Here are the numbers I used for the calculation.

AP= 2000
+600 Spell Damage (Mental Quickness 30% * 2000)

FT on Malcheezeen (1.8 speed) does 72 damage per hit.
WF on Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) does 453 damage per proc

The damage coefficent for FT is 10%. So the +600 spell damage from MQ gives an additional 60 damage per FT hit. The grand total from FT is +132 fire damage (72+60).

It takes 5 autoattacks to get 1 WF proc for 453 damage. The 5 autoattacks with FT is 660 points.

So unless my math is incorrect, FT on a 1.8 speed OH weapon would seem to be a better choice than WF on a 2.4 speed OH weapon. Aside from more damage, it allows removes any chances of the 3 sec WF cooldown kicking in from an OH WF proc. It also allows you to not have to worry anymore about having too much +Haste.
#1082SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
WF should be hitting for a hell of a lot more than that with 2000 AP.
#1083SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan
WF should be hitting for a hell of a lot more than that with 2000 AP.
If thats an offhand hit it seems just about right to me.
#1084SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Why would you put WF on the OH though, FT gets no dmg reduction on the OH whereas an OH with WF will take a 50% dmg reductioin. His post said "FT with a fast OH weapon", which leads me to believe that's what he meant. Regardless of what changes they make to FT, WF is going to continue to be the best source of MH damage. Putting it on the OH and the comparing that to FT on the MH would be a bit silly.

Last edited by Malan : 08/05/07 at 2:30 PM.
#1085SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Unless I'm terribly confused, which is likely, it seems he did a test with WF on a Runic Hammer, which was in his OH, and FT on a Malch which he put in his OH. That would explain the low WF #'s, and he was seeing which was better, no?
#1086SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Well according to the formula that Hedin broke down to calculate windfury damage on the OH, a windfury with the Runic hammer should hit for (((246 + ((2 000 / 14) * 2.4)) / 2) + (((445 + 80) / 14) * 2.4)) * 1.10 * 1.40 = 592.02 non crit.
#1087SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ulthan
Surely there must be ahrd 'threshold' of AP. where FT becomes undeniably better than WF (Also remember than FT favors fast weapons once you actually have spelldamage, since the spelldamage coefficient doesn't scale with speed, only the initial base FT damage)

Can anyone try and figure this out? Also, 592 non crit is stil less than 660, (the 660 would be even higher if the dagger was 1.3, rather than 1.8)
#1088SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
Hedin's website: Untitled Document

I plugged in Runic Hammer data:

Min damage 140
Max damage 261
Speed 2.4
AP 2000
WF5 AP 475
After armor 100%

and this is what it produced:

OH WF 2.1 Proc damage
Min 497
Max 590
Crit min 994
Crit max 1181

Average OH WF proc damage non-crit should be 543 ((497+590) /2). That is with WF5 on a 2.4 speed OH weapon. With a 15% proc rate (3 sec cooldown factored in), it takes roughly 6.66 autoattacks for the OH WF proc to go off once. With a 2.4 speed weapon that means you should get one WF proc from your OH weapon every 15.94 seconds.

With +600 spell damage from MQ, FT7 on a 1.8 speed OH weapon is +132 fire damage. In 15.94 seconds a 1.8 speed weapon gets 8.88 attacks. 8.88 * 132 equals 1172 damage from FT.

So in the time it takes for one WF proc to occur with a 2.4 speed weapon, FT7 on a 1.8 speed weapon can do 1172 damage. According to Hedin's website, the max crit value is 1181. The average WF proc damage will be much lower. So unless I am completely screwing up my theorycrafting, FT7 on a 1.8 speed OH weapon is clearly better than WF 5 on 2.4 speed OH weapon. If I a making a mistake somewhere please point it out.
#1089SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Again, why would we even consider FT/WF in a MH/OH fashion? The FT dmg is not reduced by the OH, it is best served for DW by placing FT in the OH. Considering FT on the MH is a bit silly.

As far as your math above, roughly 16 seconds to proc 1 windfury on the OH? Call it an anecdote but I've *never* had to wait that long for a proc.

Edit - I am certainly not trying to downplay the idea that FT could work its way in as a useful weapon buff now, but I think the manner that you're going about this is counter to what we know about windfury DPS. You aren't even considering that putting a dagger in the MH with the runic OH is going to push stormstrike DPS into the negligible level.

Last edited by Malan : 08/05/07 at 4:04 PM.
#1090SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rescorla
Originally Posted by Malan
Again, why would we even consider FT/WF in a MH/OH fashion? The FT dmg is not reduced by the OH, it is best served for DW by placing FT in the OH. Considering FT on the MH is a bit silly.

As far as your math above, roughly 16 seconds to proc 1 windfury on the OH? Call it an anecdote but I've *never* had to wait that long for a proc.
Malan,

I have been theorycrafting using FT7 on the OH weapon instead of WF5. No idea where you are getting the idea that I am suggesting putting it on the MH. Using WF5 on the MH is still the no brainer option. With the change to MQ talent, FT7 may now be the better choice for your OH weapon than WF5. That is what I was trying to point out.

The one WF proc per 16 secs is pure math. Take 100 and divide that by your proc rate %. That is how many autoattacks on average it will take to get one WF proc. I consistently have a 15% proc rate with a 2.6 and 2.4 speed weapon combo. 100/15 is 6.66. The Runic Hammer has a 2.4 speed. 6.66 * 2.4 = 15.984. The actual number of seconds for one proc is lower than 15.984 once Flurry is factored in but I didn't factor that in since Flurry benefits FT as well.

EDIT: Further clarification. I currently use Decapitator/Runic Hammer as my weapon combo. I have a Malchezeen collecting dust in my bank. I'll continue using the Decapitator when these talent changes go live. What I am trying to figure out is if the Malchezeen with FT7 will be better than the Runic Hammer with WF5.

Last edited by Rescorla : 08/05/07 at 4:19 PM.
#1091SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
The new -60% mana to shocks after a melee crit talent seems odd to me..

At present it's not needed for pve (except maybe on kaz'rogal :p), and it's sorta nice for pvp, but still, most of my mana goes to purge spam and totems there.

So what exactly is the point of it? Perhaps I'm being optimistic but could it perhaps be the first step in changing itemization for enhancement shamans? Removing the need for int/mp5 on gear as a precursor to giving us mail gear with fully melee dps oriented stats and no wasted points on int/mp5?

I'm probably being too hopeful though ><
Unless you're lazy/selfish it's a considerable pve dps boost. Totem cycling is beyond taxing on mana and dropping shocks to <200 mana will let you sustain shocks for quite some time while keeping up your ~600 mana/10 sec totem faggotry.
#1092SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Peechka
Weapon question...

Now I know that most of this discussion is soley based around the idea of the shaman in an "end game" type environment and min maxing etc...

What I have a qustion about is my 64 shaman which I recently dusted off to level to70. You guysmention using some 2.6 speed weapons as the sweet spot, DPS wise, for an enhancement shaman. Now I do have a green 2.6 speed axe (Lv62) which dropped for me and a blue 2.7, main hand only, mace from the Citadel Ramparts which dropped and I won. So using these 2 weapons I dont do nearly the same damage as I do with my 2 daggers which are both 1.8 speed. Using the 2 slower weapons I seem to do about 150-250 dps and the dagers get me to 250-350. This is melee only with no shocks or anything applied. What am I doing wrong if you guys say that slower weapons should yield me more DPS than my fast ones.

Here is my armory link...


The Armory
#1093SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by rava
Unless you're lazy/selfish it's a considerable pve dps boost. Totem cycling is beyond taxing on mana and dropping shocks to <200 mana will let you sustain shocks for quite some time while keeping up your ~600 mana/10 sec totem faggotry.
I find it *very* unlikely that blizzard are trying to promote totem twisting. But yes, if you're totem twisting constantly it is tough on mana and nerf to shocks mana cost would make it possible to do a few more than normal.
#1094SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
a) totem twisting worked great for my group in my last kara run yesterday. It is undeniably more taxing on the shaman doing it, but the benefit to a melee group seems worth it to me.

b) as for WF v FT, please consider the following:

AP may scale nicely with FT, but AP also scales with WF. More importantly, WF scales with melee crit chance. Now that some of us are to the point where we near 35 or 40% when buffed in raids, this is very far from a trivial difference. So, as I see it, the "543" dmg on a WF OH = 543 * .94 (for dodge chance) * 1.35 (for crit chance) = 689

Secondly, even though your offhand is no longer eating MH procs, please dont forget the incredibly important point that your WF chance to proc (outside the 3sec rule) with 2 weapons is 36%, and when you only have one weapon with WF imbue, you fall to 20% chance.

I am very willing to be wrong, but both because of the simulation that I ran, and what I consider to be common-sense back of the envelope math, WF/WF slow slow I think will continue to be the reigning king.
#1095SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rescorla
Hedin's website: Untitled Document

I plugged in Runic Hammer data:

Min damage 140
Max damage 261
Speed 2.4
AP 2000
WF5 AP 475
After armor 100%

and this is what it produced:

OH WF 2.1 Proc damage
Min 497
Max 590
Crit min 994
Crit max 1181

Average OH WF proc damage non-crit should be 543 ((497+590) /2). That is with WF5 on a 2.4 speed OH weapon. With a 15% proc rate (3 sec cooldown factored in), it takes roughly 6.66 autoattacks for the OH WF proc to go off once. With a 2.4 speed weapon that means you should get one WF proc from your OH weapon every 15.94 seconds.

With +600 spell damage from MQ, FT7 on a 1.8 speed OH weapon is +132 fire damage. In 15.94 seconds a 1.8 speed weapon gets 8.88 attacks. 8.88 * 132 equals 1172 damage from FT.

So in the time it takes for one WF proc to occur with a 2.4 speed weapon, FT7 on a 1.8 speed weapon can do 1172 damage. According to Hedin's website, the max crit value is 1181. The average WF proc damage will be much lower. So unless I am completely screwing up my theorycrafting, FT7 on a 1.8 speed OH weapon is clearly better than WF 5 on 2.4 speed OH weapon. If I a making a mistake somewhere please point it out.
I might be missing something here, but after looking at that site to calculate WF damage I'm fairly certain it's showing per-swing damage not a total for both WF attacks. The numbers do look high for indvidual attacks, but keep in ming there isn't any armor mitigation with those settings. At the very least the numbers are too small to be a total of both attacks since they have min OH WF < 2*min white OH, which with the additional WF ap just isn't possible. If it is per-swing you'd need to double the results of the WF damage to compare it to FT accurately.
#1096SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
Originally Posted by Disquette

Secondly, even though your offhand is no longer eating MH procs, please dont forget the incredibly important point that your WF chance to proc (outside the 3sec rule) with 2 weapons is 36%, and when you only have one weapon with WF imbue, you fall to 20% chance.
The 36% proc rate you discovered versus the 20% proc rate is immaterial to the discussion at hand IMO. Even with the 36% proc rate when outside the 3 sec window, your MH proc rate % is still below 20%. The best I can ever get up to with 2.6 and 2.4 speed weapon is 16% on a good day. 15% is my average. I know that proc rate % goes up if I had a 2.6 speed OH weapon but it never reaches 20% With a WF/FT combo, your MH will proc the intended 20% of the time which means it will proc more than if you use the WF/WF combo.
#1097SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Rescorla
With a WF/FT combo, your MH will proc the intended 20% of the time which means it will proc more than if you use the WF/WF combo.
No, it will still be a little under 20%, unless your MH is hitting over 3secs between swings after hastes/flurry..
#1098SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
True. You still end up with more overall MH WF procs using WF/FT than WF/WF, which was the point I was trying to make.
#1099SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Disquette, there are several factors your simulation did not seem to take into account.

-How WF is effected by both avoidance and mitigation from armor assuming level 73 MoB with 5 Sunders
-Flametongue ignoring armor
-Flametongue with Nature's Guidance +3% spell hit
-Flametongue doesn't proc when you miss, possibly leading to hit rating gaining some importance in a WF/FT set up? I don't know
-Flametongue benefits from any fire debuffs stacked on the MoB
-Flametongue always scales well with haste whereas too much can negatively effect WF
-Stormstrike DPS, higher with WF/WF Slow/Slow, but by how much?
-Could using WF/FT versus WF/WF possibly land a net increase in MH WF procs, which could help scew the results in favor of FT? (I know you get a net loss in WF proc rate, but would you gain more overall MH procs that if the OH was "stealing" some of those procs, resulting in a bit more MH WF dps?)

I don't claim to be the experts you guys are, but I know when something isn't thorough enough to come to a solid conclusion. The setups really need to be modeled with everything in mind to gain a better understanding of how they compare.
#1100SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Disquette
And the point that I was making is that there is so much stuff that happens to counteract the benefits of FT on the offhand that WF/WF is probably still (significant) benefits to sticking with it.

As for the AP bonses and its scaling, consider the following:

100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)

100 increase to AP used on OH WF:
100/14 = 7.14 (inherent AP scaling, NOT affected by OH penalty we now know)
7.14 * 1.1 = 7.85 (weapon mastery)
7.84 * 1.4 = 11 (elemental weapons)
11 * 1.35 = 14.85 (good crit rate)
14.85 * 80% = 11.88 (20% armor reduction)
11.88 * 2 = 23.76 (2 WF attacks per proc)
23.76 * 94% = 22.33 (6% of WF will be dodged)

In neither case have I factored in white hits/dodges, because neither of these can proc when the base attack doesn't land.

So...

From AP scaling alone, you have 3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 22.33 dmg/proc increase for WF. Put another way, for AP scaling only, you break even in damage between the two when you get more than 6 OH swings per 1 OH WF proc.

Now add in crit scaling, base weapon damage scaling as you get gear, increased flurry uptime, and (this is minimal) increased UR uptime, and WF still looks more attractive to me. Maybe I've missed something significant (such as main hand extra procs due to OH not eating any), but I think Slow/Slow will rule onwards.

I'd love to be proven wrong in RL testing, however, because high dps fast offhands are (so far) much easier to obtain than slow ones.

====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT: Thanks to aroma for catching this - I was wrong in that the AP bonus from gear does indeed get halved by the OH penalty. This then becomes much more in favor of FT than it originally was. The actual comparison should be:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================

Last edited by Disquette : 08/05/07 at 6:42 PM.
#1101SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette

100 increase to AP used on OH WF:
100/14 = 7.14 (inherent AP scaling, NOT affected by OH penalty we now know)
I think you're wrong here. Only WF-AP does not get the OH penalty, the regular AP from gear still gets the OH penalty (and if i understood you correctly, thats the AP you use in this example).
So the actual AP bonus on your OH is only half the amount you were using.
Sorry if i misunderstood your post, might as well be the case.
#1102SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Well, if you only have windfury on a single one-handed weapon, it won't have a 20% proc rate either. The hidden cooldown will still render one swing after every WF proc unable to proc windfury, which will give you a 16.6% proc rate.

Mainhand Proc Rates: 2.6/2.6 WF/WF vs 2.6/whatever WF/FT:

Assume permanent flurry and no other haste buffs, so those Merciless Gladiator's Lolarenaweapons drop to 2.0 speed.


WF/WF: If each hand has a 36% proc rate, each hand will proc WF every 2.77 eligible swings. Figure in 1 mainhand swing locked out from a mainhand proc, and 1-2 mainhand swings locked out from an offhand proc, and you have your mainhand proccing windfury once every 4.77-5.77 swings.

WF/FT: WF procs every 5 eligible swings, and you lose 1 swing per proc to lockout. WF procs every 6 swings.


Theoretically, enchanting WF on a slow offhand should actually increase your mainhand proc rate, although anyone who can prove my math is bad is welcome to do so.
#1103SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rizelu
There are lots of pages here and lots of discussing going on so...
What are the values I should put into pawn? and what is intellect / stamina / spirit in this all?

Person #1: 2500HP
Person #2: 2800HP
Both get hit for 40-80 (average) and 90-120(crit)
Rest of the stats is all the same.

Won't the person with the most HP be able to deal more dps as he will most likely stand longer?

Intellect and spirit seem useless damage-wise unless you count in the amount of heals you can squeeze in, the longer you stand... the more damage you are able to produce.

If I am dead, I can't do dps .. simple lol.
#1104SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujin
I think you are right in that WF/WF will be more procs of windfury in a given amount of time compared to single WF, but you are sill stealing MH procs every once in a while and lowering the average damage of WF by a lot, so its hard to judge without detailed theorycrafting if you can make up the lost damage by less WF procs with FT on offhand if you are increasing the average damage done by WF and adding in the damage done by the FT proc on your offhand.
#1105SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Rizelu
There are lots of pages here and lots of discussing going on so...
What are the values I should put into pawn? and what is intellect / stamina / spirit in this all?

Person #1: 2500HP
Person #2: 2800HP
Both get hit for 40-80 (average) and 90-120(crit)
Rest of the stats is all the same.

Won't the person with the most HP be able to deal more dps as he will most likely stand longer?

Intellect and spirit seem useless damage-wise unless you count in the amount of heals you can squeeze in, the longer you stand... the more damage you are able to produce.

If I am dead, I can't do dps .. simple lol.
In a fight where you get constant damage end don't get healed you might be right.
Stamina is a stat to consider when you're way below 10k hp fully buffed, but after that point it just isn't important anymore. Bosses will onehit you regardless of your HP, and anything else has to be healed anyway.
Your manapool works simmilarly. All you need is a manapool that is sufficient to keep up constant shocking and also big enough so that your manaregen with SR is never wasted. Beyond that point you don't have to care abaout intellect anymore.
Spirit as a stat is worthless for every shaman, if you need manaregen get items with mp5, but as an enhancement shaman you should always be able to reg enough mana with SR alone.
#1106SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Disquette
I don't claim to be the experts you guys are, but I know when something isn't thorough enough to come to a solid conclusion. The setups really need to be modeled with everything in mind to gain a better understanding of how they compare.
Let's go through point by point, shall we?

-How WF is effected by both avoidance and mitigation from armor assuming level 73 MoB with 5 Sunders

I assume a 23% damage reduction. That is more than fair to FT, considering most people are claiming an average of 20% damage reduction after sunders. I included dodges, so there goes the the avoidance issue.

-Flametongue ignoring armor

My sim does indeed use melee mitigation through armor, and allows flametongue not to be affected by armor.

-Flametongue with Nature's Guidance +3% spell hit

I modeled this with ZERO resists. I essentially gave natures guidance a 16% spell hit boost. If that's not more than fair to flame tongue, I don't know what is.

-Flametongue doesn't proc when you miss, possibly leading to hit rating gaining some importance in a WF/FT set up? I don't know

And guess what - the sim doesn't proc FT when the attack is avoided or missed. Pretty neat, eh? ;-)

-Flametongue benefits from any fire debuffs stacked on the MoB

Fair point, but I think the nature's guidance part more than covers this. However, to be complete, I just looked at the FT number, divided by 1.13 (16% resists, but 13% after natures guidance), multiplied by 109% (imp scorch), then multiplied by 110% (Curse of elements), then multiplied by 105% (crit rate), and the difference comes out to be 7dps. So, Those two numbers should be closer by 7dps due to resistances, nature's guidance, curse of elements.

-Flametongue always scales well with haste whereas too much can negatively effect WF

Another good point. I have no answer to this other than to say, it's a corner case most of the time, and the simulation I used took it into account. It'd be different for a person with lots of passive haste or item-based haste procs. My model never had the OH (with WF) dropping below 1.5 speed.

-Stormstrike DPS, higher with WF/WF Slow/Slow, but by how much?

The model shows takes this into account too. I use a 10.5 second delay between stormstrikes due to an assumed lag.

-Could using WF/FT versus WF/WF possibly land a net increase in MH WF procs, which could help scew the results in favor of FT? (I know you get a net loss in WF proc rate, but would you gain more overall MH procs that if the OH was "stealing" some of those procs, resulting in a bit more MH WF dps?)

This is all covered in the simulation, and was part of the testing. Here's the breakdown since you're interested:
WF Dps Slow/Fast: 124 WF MH Seconds per Proc: 7.81
WF Dps Slow/Slow: 128 WF MH Seconds per Proc: 8.06 (if you caught an early revision of this, i copy/pasted the wrong numbers from excel, hence the stealth edit)
So, even though the OH was stealing some, the increased flurry uptime, and the 20% to 36% jump was enough so that you had *more* MH WF in the same time period when OH'ing a WF weapon.

================

So, does this cover most of the concerns to the point where you consider it to be closer to reality than you originally thought?

Last edited by Disquette : 08/05/07 at 5:48 PM.
#1107SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by aroma
I think you're wrong here. Only WF-AP does not get the OH penalty, the regular AP from gear still gets the OH penalty (and if i understood you correctly, thats the AP you use in this example).
So the actual AP bonus on your OH is only half the amount you were using.
Sorry if i misunderstood your post, might as well be the case.
Aroma, you are absolutely correct. I'm going to leave up my original post, but edit it at the end to correct my (rather colossal!) mistake. Luckily, this mistake is not in my simulator, so it doesn't affect the tests that I did earlier.
#1108SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette
Luckily, this mistake is not in my simulator, so it doesn't affect the tests that I did earlier.
That's good to hear, because im rather fond of WF and would be almost sad if i had to switch to a different enchantment for maximum damage
#1109SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
Originally Posted by Disquette

From AP scaling alone, you have 3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 22.33 dmg/proc increase for WF. Put another way, for AP scaling only, you break even in damage between the two when you get more than 6 OH swings per 1 OH WF proc.
Assuming those values above are correct, when the denominators are equalized the values are pretty close. The variable that needs to be determined is how many weapon swings are required to generate a proc. That number will vary based on OH weapon speed, haste, etc. Take that number and multiply it by 3.74, and then compare it to 22.33. For example, if it takes 6 autoattack swings to generate an OH WF proc, then you end up with FT having a value of 22.44 (6 * 3.74) compared to 22.33 for WF.
#1110SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Rescorla
Assuming those values above are correct, when the denominators are equalized the values are pretty close. The variable that needs to be determined is how many weapon swings are required to generate a proc. That number will vary based on OH weapon speed, haste, etc. Take that number and multiply it by 3.74, and then compare it to 22.33. For example, if it takes 6 autoattack swings to generate an OH WF proc, then you end up with FT having a value of 22.44 (6 * 3.74) compared to 22.33 for WF.
Yes, "Assuming those values above are correct" :-( Unfortunately I made a large mistake in it (see my post above). However, I don't think those numbers are anywhere near the be all / end all of the debate though, as weapon damage, crit scaling, flurry scaling, etc, are all in favor of windfury.

However, if you had your current stats, but had 10 000 AP instead of your current AP, FT would almost definitely win out.

I really wish I had my updated sim available though, because I don't remember what I changed in it between 2 months ago and today. I know the today version is more correct, but crushing my laptop with a truck prevents me from seeing how much of a difference it makes.
#1111SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette
====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT:
3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================
One more thing I noticed:
the AP bonus for the OH WF procc gives an increase of 11.16 DPS, not damage itself, so for a 2.6 OH you would actually get 29.016 extra damage per procc, which is most likely way ahead of the increase FT gets from the same amount of AP.
#1112SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rescorla
I just saw your edited values:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
Assuming 6 autoattack swings required to generate an OH WF proc, equalizing the denominators results in FT adding 22.44 damage per 100 AP and WF5 only adding 11.16 (your corrected value). That is a fairly substantial differenct isn't it? At first glance it would seem to indicate that FT7 is clearly the way to go. Like you said however, weapon damage, crit scaling, flurry scaling, etc may allow WF to close the gap.
#1113SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by aroma
One more thing I noticed:
the AP bonus for the OH WF procc gives an increase of 11.16 DPS, not damage itself, so for a 2.6 OH you would actually get 29.016 extra damage per procc, which is most likely way ahead of the increase FT gets from the same amount of AP.
hah, aroma, you should be doing this instead of me!

This is one reason I wrote my sim - it's easy for me to get confused when I'm not building everything and checking it against in-game values. I make careless mistakes sometimes when I don't have a reference like in-game-testing upon which I can verify and correct.
#1114SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Disquette
hah, aroma, you should be doing this instead of me!
No way, all I can do is some nitpicking, I better leave the brilliant theorycrafting to the pros.
#1115SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Originally Posted by Disquette
And the point that I was making is that there is so much stuff that happens to counteract the benefits of FT on the offhand that WF/WF is probably still (significant) benefits to sticking with it.

As for the AP bonses and its scaling, consider the following:

100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)

100 increase to AP used on OH WF:
100/14 = 7.14 (inherent AP scaling, NOT affected by OH penalty we now know)
7.14 * 1.1 = 7.85 (weapon mastery)
7.84 * 1.4 = 11 (elemental weapons)
11 * 1.35 = 14.85 (good crit rate)
14.85 * 80% = 11.88 (20% armor reduction)
11.88 * 2 = 23.76 (2 WF attacks per proc)
23.76 * 94% = 22.33 (6% of WF will be dodged)

In neither case have I factored in white hits/dodges, because neither of these can proc when the base attack doesn't land.

So...

From AP scaling alone, you have 3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 22.33 dmg/proc increase for WF. Put another way, for AP scaling only, you break even in damage between the two when you get more than 6 OH swings per 1 OH WF proc.

Now add in crit scaling, base weapon damage scaling as you get gear, increased flurry uptime, and (this is minimal) increased UR uptime, and WF still looks more attractive to me. Maybe I've missed something significant (such as main hand extra procs due to OH not eating any), but I think Slow/Slow will rule onwards.

I'd love to be proven wrong in RL testing, however, because high dps fast offhands are (so far) much easier to obtain than slow ones.

====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT: Thanks to aroma for catching this - I was wrong in that the AP bonus from gear does indeed get halved by the OH penalty. This then becomes much more in favor of FT than it originally was. The actual comparison should be:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================
This, I think, is starting to get much closer to an accurate model. However, I have to ask if this takes into account the 100% proc chance on hit of FT versus 15-18% proc chance on hit (average) of WF? And there is still the question of lost DPS from Slow/Fast when it comes to Stormstrike, and the potential gain in DPS from more MH WF procs from OH FT.

Also, the (minimal) loss of Flurry and UR up time from losing the extra attacks that WF provides would almost certainly be more than made up for by the increased number of crits / unit of time being landed by the now (much) faster OH weapon.
#1116SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Forgive me if I missed of those items in your simulation. As I stated in my first post I don't claim to be an expert and its entirely possible I didn't fully understand the original model enough to notice some of those variables being factored in. I'm just trying to do my part to help.
#1117SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
No time yet to put the FT/FB changes into my code, just some ideas...
1.) UR uptime isn't affected much at all, we're 95% uptime anyway
2.) Flurry uptime is a slightly more complicated case but not that much different
expected wf proc time while flurried is: wspeedflurry/0.2 (for mh only), for a 2.6 weapon this is 10s, so the wf cd percentage is actually 1- (10/13), which is 23%.
so we actually can assume that 2*(1-(1-0.2)^((10/13)*3)) = 0.80 swings are expected to be added to our flurry uptime calculation, for DW the value for two 2.6s weapons would be: 1.16
for 35% crit the difference in uptime is: 85% vs. 87%
3.) Stormstrike as a haste factor is a difference of maybe 10% between a fast weapon and a slow weapon

Anyway I can say more about this, as soon as I've modelled it into my code.
#1118SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Does shadow priests Misery debuff (5% spell damage while dots are ticking) also effect FT? If so another 1.05 multiplier is needed.
#1119SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bloodwitch
crusader is not better than potency in any way shape or form at level 70. Crusader is equivalent to a +15str permachant in terms of autoattacks. unlike a warrior, we cannot artificially pump up the proc rate by spamming instant attacks since we only have the one, and its on a cooldown. in all the testing and parsing i did (both real combat, and blasted lands servants), with ss spamming and WF buffs up, crusader only barely managed to match the constant +20str when it got ungodly proc strings in a row, and that happened only very rarely.

potency > crusader.
#1120SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Sorry, but you're wrong on that one. The calculations for potency vs crusader were figured out ages ago. You're not suddenly discovering something we didn't know.
#1121SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Disquette
====================================
IMPORTANT EDIT: Thanks to aroma for catching this - I was wrong in that the AP bonus from gear does indeed get halved by the OH penalty. This then becomes much more in favor of FT than it originally was. The actual comparison should be:

3.74 dmg/swing increase for FT, and 11.16 dmg/proc increase for WF when you give a flat 100 AP bonus to each set up.
====================================
So as aroma said, it's 11.16 dps not dmg per proc.
Assuming optimal (unrealistic) 20% proc rate, that's 11.16/5 = 2.226dps added over time.
FT is 3.74 dmg * 1.05 (shadow priest misery) giving 3.927 dmg per swing.

Assuming a fast offhand of 1.4spd (I actually never looked at fast OHs, do they go faster than this? if so FT is better..) that's 3.927dmg every 1.4sec or 2.805 dps.

FT seems to scale significantly better then (at the 35% crit rate)?

Any other factors that have yet to be included?

EDIT: Also -target armor items would be useless with FT, while WF would scale nicely from them.

Last edited by Malevolencia : 08/05/07 at 10:11 PM.
#1122SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Freyalis
crusader is not better than potency in any way shape or form at level 70. Crusader is equivalent to a +15str permachant in terms of autoattacks. unlike a warrior, we cannot artificially pump up the proc rate by spamming instant attacks since we only have the one, and its on a cooldown. in all the testing and parsing i did (both real combat, and blasted lands servants), with ss spamming and WF buffs up, crusader only barely managed to match the constant +20str when it got ungodly proc strings in a row, and that happened only very rarely.

potency > crusader.
This holds true purely for white attacks untalented only. After taking into accounts extra attacks from Stormstrike and Windfury Attacks and also the semi constant 30% speed increase from flurry you come a lot closer to double the expected number of procs. Hence its a lot closer to +30 STR than +15 which is alot better than potency.

Like Malan said the math has been worked out before and you should be able to find it easily with a search.
#1123SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yavon
Currently using a Dragonstrike in MH working on Dragonspine. I want go for a haste type of build. Would I need to increase hit rating to max (24.5 I think) to max my dps output. Or does current scale for str crit hit rating hold true for shamans that want to value haste as well?
#1124SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
full stack of improved scorch debuff gives 15% bonus :-)
And BTW for OH WF it's 11.16*speed dmg/proc
#1125SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Ujin
I think you are right in that WF/WF will be more procs of windfury in a given amount of time compared to single WF, but you are sill stealing MH procs every once in a while and lowering the average damage of WF by a lot, so its hard to judge without detailed theorycrafting if you can make up the lost damage by less WF procs with FT on offhand if you are increasing the average damage done by WF and adding in the damage done by the FT proc on your offhand.
What I wrote out above covers mainhand windfury only, and should account the offhand "stealing" mainhand procs.

I'm not just saying you should get a windfury proc every 4.77-5.77 mainhand swings; I'm saying you should get a mainhand windfury proc every 4.77-5.77 mainhand swings. (You'll also get offhand procs at about the same rate, but that's not what I'm interested in.)

To put it another way, you will see more than twice as many total WF procs using slow/slow WF/WF compared to WF/FT, and half of those procs will be mainhand.
#1151SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Although I did notice a 568 SR tick the other day, not sure exactly what I had at the time. 568 would be like 3800?
Was probably on Jaina trash/rage/aneth in Hyjal, I think it's the footies that do a Rallying Cry for ~200 ap, I've had some pretty ridiculous ap numbers as a result.
#1152SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
This is incredibly encouraging. WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?

Or would be if they were posting about the worthless talents in Enhance. Christ. Can one of your Euros post some good stuff about the first 2 tiers of Enhance being utterly stupid? Ancestral Knowledge in particular.
#1153SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Windfury Totem 19

Gotta love Teron.
#1154SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Puretide
First off, I'd like to thank all of you guys for putting together this thread, its been an amazing and incredibly informative read.

However, I come with a few questions, that I hope some of you more experienced players can help me out with.

[Just as a heads up, my guild is still pretty new to the raiding world, we only just downed Gruul last week. Otherwise, Karazhan is on farm (except for Netherspite, which tends to get left out in our casual raiding schedule) as well as High King)]

As you can tell from my armory page, my gear isn't exactly spectacular in some cases.

Now I've been having some difficulty keeping up with my guild's DPS in 25 mans for some reason. I know I'm not shooting for First, or even second, but sometimes I'm in like 8th or 9th on damage, and I feel that I could be doing better. At times my raid doesn't have a fire mages so I tend to just keep with Earth Shock (Since my charges aren't getting eaten up, since most of my guild's rogues run with Deadly Poison in their OHs and I keep up WF for them), is this a good idea? Or should I still consider using a Flame Shock/Earth Shock Rotation?

Another thing, somethings before I ask for some suggestions with my gear. First off, my two primary trinkets are Romulo's Poison Vial and Core of Ar'kelos, I know that neither are particularly good, but the only other trinket I've been able to get is Bladefist's Breadth and Uniting Charm, so I figure those two are my best bet till I can get my hands on Abacus of Violent Odds and the Hourglass. Also, with some of the gems (and in some cases lack of enchants), right now I'm pretty pressed for gold since I'm powerleveling Leatherworking for the set and from repair costs from learning Gruul. I'm hoping to get my leatherworking set soon (or at least my chest), but its really slowing down recently, but thats another issue.

Now, I know that my neck, legs, trinkets, chest, helm and one of my rings are my weakest items. Right now I'm grinding honor for the PvP neck, which I'll throw in an Inscribed Noble Topaz. Is this probably my best bet for upgrades from the PvP world? (Not arena, I'm still 2 or 3 weeks from my season 2 helm which is the item I'm gonna get next) Or should I upgrade my Ring of Umbral Doom? I've had absolutely terrible luck when it comes to necks, I'm exalted with Violet Eye and have honestly never seen any of the epic karazhan DPS necks. Also with my totem, I know its not the best. I've been trying to get Astral Winds, but so far my luck has been dry. Should I pick up the Zangermarsh totem with the additional shock damage until I get luck with Heroic Mana Tombs?

Also, with my Girdle of Treachery do you think I should switch out my Hit/Agi gems for Inscribed Noble Topazes? I already plan on changing my Helm of Desolation's gem after reading through the topic.

Is it just a gear problem? Otherwise I'd greatly appreciate any other suggestions you guys could give me to help up my DPS.

On a sorta side note; on trash I die a lot. Mostly from lack of rage on my tanks since they aren't getting hit that hard, so I tend to pull aggro (this is mostly Karazhan, Gruul's Lair trash isn't very extensive). Should I just wait till a certain percentage to DPS on trash, not use Windfury (so that I can keep up UR), or something else?

For comparison sake, here are some of the DPS that consistently beat me by wide margins (so you can get a grasp of any gear differences)
Kitna
Mewt
Stings
#1155SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Mod for twisting WF/GoA:

http://www.discofiend.com/wow/Shaman...Totem_Time.zip

If you use NabuFiveSecond cast bar, you cannot use it.

I totally used that mod as the skeleton for the WFTotem timer code. It has all the same commands as nfs does. I'll clean up all the commands and language later, but this is all I can do today.

What it does:

cast windfury totem, it puts up a bar that is 10 seconds long. It will keep refreshing the windfury totem buff every 5 seconds (since that's how WF works).

This is canceled as soon as you use Grace of Air totems. Yes, I should put the other air totems in there, but i didn't. feel free to mod it up yourself.

It starts out as a blue bar while WF is active, then changes to a green bar (but doesn't alter the location) when GoA is up.

Eh, if you try it you'll see what I mean.

To repeat tho - I totally just worked within the NabuFiveSecond code - the author did a nice job on making that easy to read and use. If you use NabuFiveSecond, DO NOT use this mod.

Anyway, here are a couple screenies of it in action so you can see what I mean. The first is with WF Totem up, but not GoA. The second is showing what happened when i dropped GoA totem. Your goal is to redrop WF totem by the time the green bar runs out. That's all there is to twisting.

Sorry the rest of my interface sucks. For this mod, it's just that blue then green bar in the center.
Attached Thumbnails
wftotem_mod_1.jpg  wftotem_mod_2.jpg  

#1156SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Iol
@ Puretide

Rogues will always be way ahead of you if they have similar gear and are inside your group. I'd try to replace your OH by a 2.6 speed green just to see... the non-sync'd weapons could mean you get more OH wind fury. Also, at your gear level, i'd gem and enchant for Crit instead instead of Hit. (mongoose instead of crusader, and +crit rating gems.) Reason being, more UR uptime, and more Flurry. WF adds a good chunk of AP to your WF'ed strikes and WF is a good % of your total dmg.
#1157SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Puretide --

Some of the easiest and cheapest things you can do to greatly improve that gear are:
* Run Heroic SP for Midnight Legguards (not 100% sure off the top of my head that it's worth breaking 2-piece Deso until you get Cyclone Helm, but when you do, it is.)
* Enchant said Legguards with +40 AP/+10 crit, not 30 STA/10 AGI like your Desolation has.
* Save Heroic badges for Bloodlust Brooch.
* Spend the 90g on the helm enchant from Revered CE (this is a much better cost-benefit ratio than regemming and it should be your first priority).
* Use your arena points to buy a Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler or Cleaver for your OH instead of arena armor.
* Keep working on your Heroic MT totem.
#1158SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aroma
Originally Posted by Malan
This is incredibly encouraging. WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?

Or would be if they were posting about the worthless talents in Enhance. Christ. Can one of your Euros post some good stuff about the first 2 tiers of Enhance being utterly stupid? Ancestral Knowledge in particular.
Yes sir <o.
#1159SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Puretide
Alright thanks for the help.

Also, I think Runic Hammer was better than everything but the Arena MHs, at least thats what it said in the main post?

With Arena gear, and the desolation legs, its for pvp, if I could get some better PvE leggings I could easily get the leg enchant on them. Also right now, Mongoose is just too expensive for me. I can probably start running Heroic SP too, I could use neck and healing boots.

Edit: I know I'm not supposed to be at rogue DPS levels, but I'm pretty damn far away from them at times. Is that something I should be worried about? Every melee in the guild absolutely love me, so I'm not worried about losing my raid spot, but I just felt like I could be doing better.
#1160SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Puretide - you're pretty heavy on +Hit. Drop all the Hit gems, and strongly consider dropping the Vial for the brooch.

@Disquette - damn you and your spiffy space totem skins.
#1161SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Puretide
Originally Posted by Malan
Puretide - you're pretty heavy on +Hit. Drop all the Hit gems, and strongly consider dropping the Vial for the brooch.
For some reason I thought the more hit the better so I just whored it up, but now after reading this thread I see that it was a bad idea. I'm in the process of regeming as best I can. Probably just a legacy from my rogue days.

In regards to the Brooch, its been difficult getting heroic groups running for me (barely been able to setup heroic Pande runs for the totem), so getting the 41 tokens I need for my brooch will take a very long time. I was contemplating getting the ring first (due to its lower cost in tokens), and shoot for the two blue trinkets I mentioned earlier (since getting in a normal mech and/or BM run is a lot easier for me.)
#1162SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaanix
Originally Posted by Puretide
Probably just a legacy from my rogue days.
Another rogue turncoat eh? Good to know i'm in good company
#1163SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malan
This is incredibly encouraging. WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?

Or would be if they were posting about the worthless talents in Enhance. Christ. Can one of your Euros post some good stuff about the first 2 tiers of Enhance being utterly stupid? Ancestral Knowledge in particular.
I just wrote a lengthy reply and as I hit preview... it showed nothing and I forgot to copy it before I hit preview. >.<

Here it is again, reply 39 on page two of the thread.
Build: 0\45\16, Endgame PVE.
World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents


What, in your opinion, is the key talent to your build and why?

Enhancement:
Thundering Strikes
Enhancing Totems for the strength bonus only, Grace of Air is very rarely used in a raiding situation.
Flurry
Improved Weapon Totems for the windfury totem buff, I don't use the flametongue totem - ever.
Spirit Weapons for the 15% reduction in threat, the parry 'bonus' isn't of much use in a raiding situation, as I'm not supposed to be hit in the first place.
Elemental Weapons for the personal windfury buff, I don't use the other weapon enchants.
Weapon Mastery
Stormstrike for the little extra damage, but mostly for the chance to proc an extra windfury attack and the debuff.
Dual Wield
Dual Wield Specialization
Unleashed Rage
Shamanistic Rage


Restoration:
Improved Reincarnation to a lesser extent.
Totemic Focus
Totemic Mastery
Nature's Guidance



What talent, in your build, would you replace if you could and with what?

Ancestral Knowledge
5% extra mana isn't really suitable in a melee-damage oriented talent tree. Something like 5%\10% extra strength would be much more attractive and useable for us. This is currently just a filler talent to get further down.
Shield Specialization
Again I'd like to see something more melee-damage oriented, as we can't tank at all regardless of spec and in a deep-enhancement build you won't be using a shield anyway.
Guardian Totems
Stoneskin and Windwall totem are the two least used totems in my user interface (read: never used) next to Flametongue totem. The reduced grounding totem cooldown isn't worth two points in a build like my own (or in any other build in my opinion).
Two-handed Axes and Maces
This should be trainable from the trainer, and replaced with something more attractive. I like the looks of the new talent that was shown at BlizzCon to replace this, it looks interesting.
Toughness
I have never ever seen the use of this talent, as we're mail-clad and we can't tank regardless of spec, this is just a joke as it stands now.

Generally it's the top tiers of enhancement that needs a review. Personally I think the lower tiers are mostly good talents and I'd love to see some new talents to replace the top ones, so we'd have to debate ourselves on what we'd want to keep and what we'd have to let go.

Let me know if I should change and\or add anything, please.

Last edited by Ardonomus : 08/07/07 at 7:14 PM. Reason: Reworded a little.
#1164SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Puretide
Also, I think Runic Hammer was better than everything but the Arena MHs, at least thats what it said in the main post?
That's true, perhaps my post wasn't specific enough. As I said, you should buy a MG's Pummeler or Cleaver -- those are the 2.6 speed one-hand weapons that cost 2625 arena points. Your best DPS will come from using that in your offhand (since you have a Decapitator MH).
#1165SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Puretide
Originally Posted by Rob
That's true, perhaps my post wasn't specific enough. As I said, you should buy a MG's Pummeler or Cleaver -- those are the 2.6 speed one-hand weapons that cost 2625 arena points. Your best DPS will come from using that in your offhand (since you have a Decapitator MH).
I do plan on getting two of these, if possible, but my arena team would like it if I get some better gear first. I have pitiful resilence and hp, and I need all that I can as enhancement.

But as far as raw Honor, is the neck the best bet? I should have enough honor for that or the ring (or the belt even) in a day or two.
#1166SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Yes. the PvP neck is very solid for PvE when socketed with +4STR/+4 Crit.
#1167SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Timmervargen
Just dropped a line to say that I think more of the EU people from EJ that frequent this thread should go and post their views:

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build - Discussion

Our useless talents are unlikely to change if we just sit quiet. The more people that make their voices heard and present our case in a calm and logical fashion the more likely it is someone will listen. I posted my views just a few minutes ago. Some of it is probably wishing for a bit much, but one can dream!

On a slightly related note, I've given up on trying to find out if Thundering Strikes is indeed bugged or not. Gut instinct says that it is, but I can't replicate circumstances that will prove it. Most of data to go on comes from guild raids these days. Lack of time is evil. Only red thread in them is that Stormstrike and Windfury often seem to end up just a little short relative to the Auto Attack crit rate. Never more than 1-2% or so though. Which in turn would indicate that the circumstances provoking the bug are not consistent, occuring substantially less than half of the total dps time.

Or it means that I've been chasing a ghost, and it's just probablility messing with me. :p
#1168SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yah its long been believed that Thundering Strikes is either not working, or that its working and the tooltip is wrong (should state white dmg only if thats the case).

Be sure and make that remark in that thread if possible.

Someone please make the suggestion that Imp Lightning shield should affect ALL shields. Anticipation and Toughness should be totally reworked, nobody takes both talents. Tier 1 talents are remnants of the WoW beta or something and should be totally redone.

The point should be hammered in that with Resto and Elemental the thought is "fuck I don't have enough points to get all this good stuff!" whereas with Enhance its "fuck, how do I get to the bottom of the tree with the least points spent on this shit"
#1169SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3joelpt
Understanding WF timing

Hi all,

I'm developing an enh shaman dps simulator called Shamulator which you may have heard of. I am currently preparing the next version, but work has come grinding to a halt because of a specific WF issue I have run into.

The common view on the forums is that same-speed weapons are the best choice for enh shamans, because they give you the best odds of proccing WF from the MH instead of the OH.

Well, in my simulations, I am finding same-speed weapons result in a big DPS penalty vs. a slightly faster OH. Let me give you an example.

For the purposes of this example, assume a 100% WF proc rate (i.e. it goes off as soon as it can every time), a 100% hit rate (no misses), and no SS/Flurry.

Take a pair of 2.8/2.8 speed weapons. With a WF cooldown of 3.0 seconds, by my understanding this means that you will get to proc WF once every 5.6 seconds (2.8x2).

Now consider 2.8/2.7 speed weapons. Again due to the WF cooldown, by my calculations you will get to proc WF once every 4.2 seconds on average.

This is because with 2.8/2.8 weapons which always strike at the same moment (simultaneously), you'll get a chance to swing exactly every 2.8 seconds. Since WF cooldown is 3 seconds long, that means you can proc WF exactly once every 5.6 seconds.

With 2.8/2.7 weapons, one or the other hand will always get a chance to proc WF sooner than every 5.6 seconds (average every 4.2s). For instance, the first three WF procs with these speeds will occur at 0.0 (MH), 5.4 (OH), and 8.4 (MH again) seconds. Since the weapon swings are not synchronized, the time between swings will tend to be shorter (moreso at certain points than others, but always proccing WF more often than 5.6 secs).

So, the end result is that comparing these two speed-pairs, WF can proc 25% more frequently with 2.8/2.7 than with 2.8/2.8. (5.6 * 0.75 = 4.2)

Now, this being the case (as I currently understand it), using 2.8/2.8 still yields a better MH:OH WF Proc ratio than 2.8/2.7 -- 50.0% versus 47.3% in my tests. Furthermore, a 2.7 OH means slightly lower DPS from OH WF (& SS) hits.

However this benefit is outweighed by the higher overall number of WF procs that can occur with the different-speed OH. By my calculations, taking all this into account, 2.8/2.7 results in an overall ~10% increase in DPS vs. 2.8/2.8.

Adding Flurry/SS back into the mix reduces this disparity a lot, but the relationship still exists, with same-speed weapons at most speed points suffering a big drop in DPS compared to a slightly faster OH.


Now I understand that this is decidedly the opposite of the prevailing opinion regarding same-speed weapons for enh shammies. So can anybody clue me in on what I might be failing to understand about this?

Thanks
Foozga aka Joel
#1170SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Etelmo
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah its long been believed that Thundering Strikes is either not working, or that its working and the tooltip is wrong (should state white dmg only if thats the case).
I was talking with a priest in guild, and he reminded me that your crit is based on all attacks, not just hits.
You should be comparing the CritOnZeroDamage(for SWS) for both Windfury/Stormstrike/White damage, rather than CritOnHit. CritOnZeroDamage includes dodge/parry/miss, CritOnHit is just attacks that land.
Loading past raids, they are allmost identical for me.
#1171SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malovent
Weapons

Hi everyone

Most interesting thread and I found it very useful. I currently have 2 of these equipped

[Fel Edged Battleaxe] and I would like to hear your thoughts on this combo. Is it a good combo or would it be better to get something like the [Runic Hammer] in both hands or maybe keep one Fel Edged axe in MH and a Runic hammer in OH?

Last edited by Malovent : 08/08/07 at 4:06 AM. Reason: fixed links
#1172SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jameseh
Originally Posted by Malovent
Hi everyone

Most interesting thread and I found it very useful. I currently have 2 of these equipped

[Fel Edged Battleaxe] and I would like to hear your thoughts on this combo. Is it a good combo or would it be better to get something like the [Runic Hammer] in both hands or maybe keep one Fel Edged axe in MH and a Runic hammer in OH?

You want something slower than what you currently have equipped in your offhand. If you can, try and acquire a [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver].

Infact, quoted from the opening post of this thread:

Originally Posted by Malan

In short:
OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Runic Hammer] > heroic drop/battlground weapons > green 2.6spd > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4
Non arena OH drops from heroics are:
#1173SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Ok, so i finally ventured past Kara last night, and went on a guild clear of SSC and TK.

To get it out of the way, oh my god melee range is punishing when you don't know what all the mobs do, or forget exactly what "you're standing in pyro" means for kael :-(

But, back on topic. In kara I'd tried twisting totems using just the standard timers you get with yata / totemus / whatever. It was rather difficult, and I know I botched it sometimes. Using the mod tonight, however, knowing when to refresh was never a problem. I feel pretty good about that aspect of it, and think that if I get to go back again, and know where tthe tank spot are, they can be twisted just fine (on non aoe-silence) fights.
#1174SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malovent
Hi everyone

Most interesting thread and I found it very useful. I currently have 2 of these equipped

[Fel Edged Battleaxe] and I would like to hear your thoughts on this combo. Is it a good combo or would it be better to get something like the [Runic Hammer] in both hands or maybe keep one Fel Edged axe in MH and a Runic hammer in OH?
If you read the original post you'd know the answer to your question. FEB is too fast.
#1175SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Post 69, and i quote you Malan, since you have some ideas.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?
#1176SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Disquette
Ok, so i finally ventured past Kara last night, and went on a guild clear of SSC and TK.

To get it out of the way, oh my god melee range is punishing when you don't know what all the mobs do, or forget exactly what "you're standing in pyro" means for kael :-(

But, back on topic. In kara I'd tried twisting totems using just the standard timers you get with yata / totemus / whatever. It was rather difficult, and I know I botched it sometimes. Using the mod tonight, however, knowing when to refresh was never a problem. I feel pretty good about that aspect of it, and think that if I get to go back again, and know where tthe tank spot are, they can be twisted just fine (on non aoe-silence) fights.
Yes, Yata has no support for totem twisting, probably I will never include it. I will probably only add some basic support for ticks, but not yet sure.
#1177SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Well, I greatly prefer good mods to do specific things instead of one that tries to do everything. I didn't know you did yata. That's pretty cool :-) I switched to that from totemus due to big freezes (maybe .5 to 1 sec) anytime I used a totem that wasn't the default.
#1178SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
By the way, since the lead itemization designer is now playing a shaman, someone needs to figure out how to point him to this thread so he can see how jacked up it is.
#1179SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I assume he is in the US which means if/when he posts it will be on the US forum, so one of you guys will have to point him.
#1180SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Itzelsnitch
Could it be possible that WF cooldown would be reset when switching weapons, so that switching weapons in between attacks would provide a DPS increase? :P
#1181SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Itzelsnitch
Could it be possible that WF cooldown would be reset when switching weapons, so that switching weapons in between attacks would provide a DPS increase? :P
Even if that were the case you'd incur a GCD every time you swapped, and I'm sure that would be just one more thing they'd fix like the WF 5/4 workaround.
#1182SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
I doubt weapon swapping will "reset" WF proc timer due to the fact that windfury cooldown are tied to your offhand even when your main hand procs it.

Assuming that it does reset the cooldown, doesn't swapping weapon incure not only a global cooldown, but also reset your swing timer? By the time you get the next swing off, isn't the 3 second cooldown already over, AND you lose out on your next (or next couple) of white swings?
#1183SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
That's true, it would reset your swing timer as well.
#1184SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Disquette
Ok, so i finally ventured past Kara last night, and went on a guild clear of SSC and TK.

To get it out of the way, oh my god melee range is punishing when you don't know what all the mobs do, or forget exactly what "you're standing in pyro" means for kael :-(

But, back on topic. In kara I'd tried twisting totems using just the standard timers you get with yata / totemus / whatever. It was rather difficult, and I know I botched it sometimes. Using the mod tonight, however, knowing when to refresh was never a problem. I feel pretty good about that aspect of it, and think that if I get to go back again, and know where tthe tank spot are, they can be twisted just fine (on non aoe-silence) fights.
One thing I've noticed as far as totem twisting goes is that using the macro in the OP really, really helps in Hyjal for trash. The Crypt Fiends have this annoying habit of eating totems as soon as they go down and it really helps to not have to think about whether windfury is up or not. Plus the totems sort of move with you too
#1185SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Post 69, and i quote you Malan, since you have some ideas.

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Shaman: Key talent in your build?
Just for the record, reduced time on grounding totem is an essential PvP talent for me. Combined with 5s shocks and proper positioning, I can avoid over half of a casters damage. I'm honestly saddened by the number of shaman in the post that claim to be PvP oriented but then say they don't need this talent. Guardian totems should probably look more like : Extends range of totems to 25/30 yds, decreases cooldown of grounding totem by 1/2s.

I must be the only person in the world that likes Elemental Devastation. Combined with the Darkmoon: Wrath card it's a pretty neat talent. However, it would probably be more useful if it increased the raids damage instead of just the shamans. That would make it useful for elemental shaman also.

Edit: If we only get the tier 1 talents changed and nothing else, I'll still consider this a victory.
#1186SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Drats - that's fine, but since Kaplan stated that Enhancement is not a PvP spec (of course he also said we're not a raid spec ) and since most shaman that are PvPing are elemental or resto, the grounding totem talent probably doesn't need to be a Tier 2 Enhance talent. Not to mention that nobody in their right mind gives a shit about Stoneskin totem or Windwall.
#1187SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
When I pvp'd with my raid resto spec, I took 5/5 ancestral and 2points imp grounding. Taking 3/3 elemental warding would save just about as much damage and be more important in pve too.
#1188SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by drats
Just for the record, reduced time on grounding totem is an essential PvP talent for me. Combined with 5s shocks and proper positioning, I can avoid over half of a casters damage. I'm honestly saddened by the number of shaman in the post that claim to be PvP oriented but then say they don't need this talent. Guardian totems should probably look more like : Extends range of totems to 25/30 yds, decreases cooldown of grounding totem by 1/2s.

I must be the only person in the world that likes Elemental Devastation. Combined with the Darkmoon: Wrath card it's a pretty neat talent. However, it would probably be more useful if it increased the raids damage instead of just the shamans. That would make it useful for elemental shaman also.

Edit: If we only get the tier 1 talents changed and nothing else, I'll still consider this a victory.
My post is based PURELY from a PVE perspective.
#1189SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata
My post is based PURELY from a PVE perspective.
If it seemed that I was specifically talking about you, then I apologize. The devs are obviously still a little confused about exactly what they want each spec of shaman to do. All of our information is valuable, but it's apparent that some of the talents that I like aren't as appealing to others. I hope they improve on the lesser used talents rather than remove them completely (With the exception of shield spec. I'm going to send them a case of beer when they remove that pos talent.)
#1190SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I'm ashamed to say that when I was but a wee shaman on my way to 60, I had 5 pts in Shield spec.
#1191SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm ashamed to say that when I was but a wee shaman on my way to 60, I had 5 pts in Shield spec.
That was back before DW, I'll wager, and it made sense to increase block over a pittance of mana. I did the same thing, since I found quality 1 handers easier to come by than 2 handers on my way to 60.
#1192SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm ashamed to say that when I was but a wee shaman on my way to 60, I had 5 pts in Shield spec.
I used it when I was resto at 60, as Ancestral Knowledge was almost completely worthless then (it finally became viable when we hit 10k unbuffed mana), It definitely helped a little bit on some of the big pulls in AQ40 (Twin Emps trash with the spawns zerging the raid and usually going for healers in between fears).
#1193SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Handratty
I read the first pages or so and could not find an answer to my question. So, I apologize if this has been covered and would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction.

How does Stormstrike (SS) affect your sustained dps?
Moreover, when is the best time to use stormstrike?

To this point, I have just been mindlessly spamming SS whenever the cooldown is up. However, it occured to me that this strategy might not be the best idea with all the different factors that affect Windfury.
#1194SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I believe that some sim runs that Tornhoof (maybe?) might have posted in the last 10 pages or so concluded that waiting for the cooldown before using SS would in theory increase dps by 1-2% or something like that.
#1195SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
General consensus (and my personal practice) seems to be that if there's less than about 1.5-2 seconds left on CD, you should wait, but if there's more, you should fire it off. I'd probably also lean towards SSing earlier if we had an elemental shaman or boomkin in our raids (we don't).
#1196SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
And I think, roughly speaking, SS generally accounts for 10% of overall damage output.
#1197SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
I agree with Rob.

I do run with a Boomkin (sometimes two, we like our druids) and so I try to get my FS->ES rotation timed so that I don't use Stormstrike charges. I find the WF cooldown bar is a really good 'hint' for when to SS before shocking, or when to shock before SS. It's not like an auto-shot bar, though, where you need to look at it. For a while I was delaying SS too frequently with it, and my DPS suffered.
#1198SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
My WFtotem is almost ready :-)
#1199SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Rob
I'd probably also lean towards SSing earlier if we had an elemental shaman or boomkin in our raids (we don't).
Yah that's the real kicker. If you're in a raid with someone that can make use of the debuff than you need to have it up there every 10 seconds on the dot. If not, waiting to boost your DPS a bit is a good idea.
#1200SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I slap SS when WFCD or flurry is off...
#1201SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Handratty
Yea the only people using the charges for my raids are rogues currently. I downloaded the WF3sec addon. Hopefully that will help a little.

Thanks.
#1202SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Revdarian
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah its long been believed that Thundering Strikes is either not working, or that its working and the tooltip is wrong (should state white dmg only if thats the case).


Thundering Strikes was fixed on the 2.1 patch, the first big iteration, and as others have said already all you need to do is to check your total crit %, it will be spot on the same.

Use an addon like Combat Stats to check that btw, it is more accurate as it does count all swings.

Prior to that patch you would see that WF and SS would have also a notorious 5% less ammount of crits total than auto attacks.
#1226SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Weapon totems get on mob aggro lists because of the way the buffs are applied. Aran/Dorothee and other secondary target bosses would target my weapon totems for their bolts all the time. It didn't bother me too much, because every one ate a few thousand damage.

I believe it's due to the stat totems being more of an aura, and the weapon totems being an applied buff. The only other issue is I kow Healing Stream generates aggro (dropping it at the beginning of a boss pull when you aren't topped off makes for some interesting wipes), but don't think it gets on aggro lists in the same way as the weapon totems, as I never see it targetted in the middle of a fight.

I've also had bosses and other mobs just randomly turn around and smack a relatively freshly dropped WF totem in the middle of a fight. And I have no idea what's up with that other then people being briefly out of melee. I've gotten in the habit on some fights of dropping WF out of melee range due to that.
#1227SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
What sort of percentage of the player base is pvp focused vs pve focused?

All balancing issues seem to be based on pvp now, there is no pve related reason I can think of that would warrant this change.
#1252SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
drats
Originally Posted by Hidden
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] also increases your Spell Damage by 80 when shocking every time when cooldown is up, so it's slightly underrated.
Unfortunately, this isn't quite the case. I've found that the resist rate for boss mobs is high enough that I never see the full stack of this spell.

.... They couldn't just ruin WF for shaman. They had to go ruin it for other classes too. My raid spot is doomed.

re-edit: I'm a moron.

last-edit: It would be nice if we could figure out a way to record damage absorbed by our totems. All things considered it's probably a good thing for healer mana.

Last edited by drats : 08/09/07 at 7:03 PM.
#1253SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Natali3
Originally Posted by Ujin
Windfury totem just got nerfed again apparently.

WoW Forums -> 2.1 Windfury Is Still Bugged!
This makes me angry.

It also makes me wish they'd expand more on what they plan to do with the totem system as a whole.

Bit sick and tired of the crypt spiders in hyjal, Teron, the flame of Azzinoth from Illidan, etc. all deciding to make ANY of my totems number one priority targets over and over and over again.
#1254SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Does anyone know if some guild was somehow abusing a windfury totem mechanic that this needed a hotfix?
#1255SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Murderbot
Now that Windfury Totem is less effective, what is the magnitude of this change? How much less overall DPS will rogues/warriors see? The dead horse has been resurrected: At what gear threshold is WF Totem better than Grace of Air for rogues?

Most importantly, in a raid group with a limited number of shamans to go around, is putting the shaman in the melee group still significantly better than giving it to casters or hunters?
#1256SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Natali3
Originally Posted by Malan
Does anyone know if some guild was somehow abusing a windfury totem mechanic that this needed a hotfix?
I'd laugh if it was "totem twisting".

Edit: Raiding now, so lets see this "hotfix" in action on my groups dps.
#1257SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Roflobster
Originally Posted by Malan
Does anyone know if some guild was somehow abusing a windfury totem mechanic that this needed a hotfix?
Spamstring!
#1258SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rhaal
I'd guess that this is an intentional nerf to the ever more popular 2x warrior + some kind of shaman 5v5 arena teams.

They're doing their best to balance out the classes - having it evolve into double warrior teams is clearly against that.
#1259SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Klixx
Originally Posted by Murderbot
Now that Windfury Totem is less effective, what is the magnitude of this change? How much less overall DPS will rogues/warriors see? The dead horse has been resurrected: At what gear threshold is WF Totem better than Grace of Air for rogues?

Most importantly, in a raid group with a limited number of shamans to go around, is putting the shaman in the melee group still significantly better than giving it to casters or hunters?
Its a 6% nerf for sword (accounting for the sword spec nerf coming in next patch as well)/fist rogues give or take (25% damage coming from Sinister Strike, 25% of that comes from WF, 6% of my overall damage comes from WF proccing off sinister strike. Completely based off my last wws report). It doesn't seem like much on paper, but its a sizable chunk. It'll be better viewed in a raid.
#1260SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dukanull
Raiding atm. right now have a dagger rogue, sword rogue, arms warrior, and a feral druid. I'll let you know how things pan out.
#1261SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I've got about the same setup right now, feral, sword rogue, fist rogue, MS warrior. The warrior said that for 2 trash pulls he got zero WF procs.
#1262SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• frmorrison
Originally Posted by Natali3
I'd laugh if it was "totem twisting".
Having less attacks proccing WF totem doesn't affect totem twisting.


The only reason I see for this hotfix is a Warrior/Shaman Arena teamups.


Because of the horrible agility to crit ratio for Warriors, WF should still be better for them. However, some WWS parses are needed to really see what is happening.
#1263SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Klixx
Seeing some WWS parses will be really nice.

And if the change was made because of arena groups ill be rather upset. WoW has been a PvE based game from the beginning, but with recent pvp changes and this balancing act crap that they've been doing, has started hurting pve, their primary focus.
#1264SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dukanull
Phase 2-4 Kael our sword rogue was doing 1300ish dps, maybe 100-150 lower than usual. Arms warrior took a pretty big hit from regular performance.
#1265SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by frmorrison
Having less attacks proccing WF totem doesn't affect totem twisting.
What he meant was the the possibility that since people were using both they would tone down Windfury as a response.
#1266SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3joelpt
Originally Posted by Malan
Who is the author of that sim? Does he frequent EJ?
Hey Malan,

Yep I'm here. I'm the author of Shamulator.

There are indeed some significant changes coming in the next version which can affect the results. Specifically,

- Dualwielding should grant a 36% WF proc chance (in current version it's 20% no matter what)
- When weapons swing simultaneously, randomly choose which hand gets to swing first
- OH 50% damage penalty was incorrectly penalizing the WF Bonus AP portion of that damage
- Attempts to make Flurry better mimic ingame Flurry behavior
- If MH SS swing misses, OH SS swing should not be attempted

The last 2 have a pretty minor impact on final overall DPS, but the first 3 can change things up significantly. I'm not sure if these changes would affect the relative DPS you are seeing when varying +hit/critchance.

FYI I will be releasing the next version soon (and will post here when it's ready).

I'm currently hung-up on a possible error with same speed weapons lowering DPS compared to using a slightly faster OH weapon. Look back in this thread (page 49) if you'd like to read about it and illuminate me.

Foozga
#1267SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bain
If things end up working out for the worse; ie WF only ends up being a marginal benefit. I guess i'll end up having two free talent points when i login next.

Imp Wep totems just doesnt look that appealing anymore.
#1268SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by joelpt
I'm currently hung-up on a possible error with same speed weapons lowering DPS compared to using a slightly faster OH weapon. Look back in this thread (page 49) if you'd like to read about it and illuminate me.

Foozga
Link the post, you must be using a different number of posts per page than I am.
#1269SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
i do not want to wait for joelpt to do it as i am really interested in that topic
#1270SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Bain
If things end up working out for the worse; ie WF only ends up being a marginal benefit. I guess i'll end up having two free talent points when i login next.

Imp Wep totems just doesnt look that appealing anymore.
This talent was weak none or less even before the nerf. Actually I'm not really suprised about the change. They already tried it two times in 1.06 (?) test and tBC Beta. Somehow the change vanished in tBC release, maybe even unintented (earthbind anyone? :P). In some way, it helps enhancement shamans, because it will close the dam gap between us and the other melees.

And as someone, who also plays a warrior, I always found harmstring spamming a bit strange. ^^
#1271SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3slant
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
In some way, it helps enhancement shamans, because it will close the dam gap between us and the other melees.
That's a shortsighted silly viewpoint. If our individual DPS approaches rogues, we'll be nerfed again to fit, as we should be. Otherwise why bring rogues?

I agree that improved weapon totems was always a weak talent, though.
#1272SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by slant
That's a shortsighted silly viewpoint. If our individual DPS approaches rogues, we'll be nerfed again to fit, as we should be. Otherwise why bring rogues?

I agree that improved weapon totems was always a weak talent, though.
I didnt think of really approaching rogue level. Because of how they scale with haste and their itemization advantages, they still will leave us behind with every item tier. But it will close the gap a bit and not just between us and them, but also between ferals, casters, hunters and them. And for warriors, they shouldn't get past us, both classes should be at around the same level.
#1273SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Stigmata
What sort of percentage of the player base is pvp focused vs pve focused?

All balancing issues seem to be based on pvp now, there is no pve related reason I can think of that would warrant this change.
I thought the performance of a hybrid PvP/PvE MS Warrior in raids was a bit excessive compared to Fury considering how good they are in arenas. This is a fairly huge damage nerf for 2H warriors (somewhere around 10% from what my guild worked out), but less for Rogues/Fury Warriors.
#1274SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3forge
Comparing 2 weapons

Hello, i've been reading a lot of information from here to educate myself on the wonders of Enhancement shaman and i'm still missing a lot of information and i'm extremely uncertain of my gear about how to maximise the dps.

I'm trying to keep something like 130-150 hit rating, aiming to keep 25% crit and going for 1500AP now after that going for more crit and more crit as it comes. I've been doing some testing on lowering my hit and so on but i'm not sure if it helps a lot or am i just gimping my stats by going all the wrong ways.

So, my current stats are:
AP 1463
Hit 123
Crit 26.04%

If i change my gear a bit i can go:
AP 1404
Hit 157
Crit 27.32%

Which one would you as the experts think be more benefitting since i'm really having a hard time finding a real solution to this as to which one would be better DPS wise or are they both almost equal and that's why i'm not seeing anything magnificient.

And another, the main idea that i wanted to ask from the people in here. I'm currently using The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft and Boggspine Knuckles - Items - World of Warcraft as my weapons, and since Decapitator has only crit as a pure stat and offers the funny use stat. I've been thinking if using Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft would be more benefitting ?

If i gem it with 8str i get +44AP -3CR, where as 14AP is 1DPS i would gain 3.1DPS from the AP and the crit would be quite meaningless in this case i think. Now the Decapitators use hits for a medium of 500, has a cooldown of 3min so this something like 2.7DPS.

But the Fool's Bane has roughly 6DPS difference in theyr initial weapon damage. So because the AP etc would be almost equal i'm thinking would it be better to use Fool's Bane rather than Decapitator since the AP gain would also go directly to WF and thus give me a nice buff in that department also.

I know i'm probably micro-managing a bit too much but i'm just wondering if i should use it since i believe i wont get the Netherbane that fast from Al'Ar just yet.

Hopefully this isn't too big of a post or something, cheer for everyone and thanks very much for all your theorycraft
#1275SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by forge

So, my current stats are:
AP 1463
Hit 123
Crit 26.04%

If i change my gear a bit i can go:
AP 1404
Hit 157
Crit 27.32%
I would suggest the difference between the two is very marginal, I'd be tempted to go for the second, but I'm sure others on here would choose the first.
#1276SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hidden
The second for sure, it's around 29.5 Strength vs. 34 Hit Rating and 28 Crit Rating.
#1277SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Just thought on the WF totem fix, The change is due to warriors spamstringing in pvp.

Wouldn't a simple fix have been to put spamstring on a CD?
#1278SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
#1301SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Mirken
I'd like to work on my leatherworking to eventually obtain the ebon netherscale set, but I don't want to waste my time with this if leather is going to be a better option.
Ebon Netherscale is still pretty solid, but personally, I'd say the most useful profession would be Blacksmithing for Dragonstrike (and if you enjoy PvP, a Stormherald would probably make you pretty nasty.) The Ebon Netherscale stuff is all replaceable by SSC, the Blacksmithing MH isn't replaceable until BT.

Lastly, I fully understand the theoretical "valley" of weapon speeds when factoring in haste. According to posts that I have been seeing, 45-50% haste is the range to avoid. Is this range including flurry, or is the 45-50% just referring to additional haste from items, enchants, etc. I'm considering using Drakefist Hammer (2.6 speed, 212 haste rating increase) with Runic Hammer (2.4 speed) once I hit 70. With this combination, dual mongoose, and all the other typical attack speed increases for a shaman, will I still be outside of the "valley" and ok on DPS?
When your hasted, flurried weapon speed drops below 1.5, it is theoretically possible to do less damage than if it was above 1.5 due to the fact 3 swings will not be eligible for WF to proc instead of 2. However, if haste drops you below 1.4 your damage should pick back up again. As far as applying this theory to current itemization, this appears to mean that you primarily just need to be sure that passive haste + flurry + Mongoose doesn't push you under 1.5, because large haste procs like DST and Dragonstrike, and large haste use effects like Bloodlust and Haste Potions will be large enough to increase your DPS no matter where you are on the Haste curve (for example, if your weapon speed is 2.0 and Heroism pushes you down to 1.43, that's still going to be a net DPS increase even though you may lose some WF damage).

--

Sadly, the totem nerf probably wasn't really about shamans, but about Arms warrior effectiveness in PvP and PvE. (Blizzard probably didn't forsee spamstring in PvP or Arms warriors passing Fury warriors in PvE DPS.) Hopefully we will get some changes to compensate us for this nerf, since I don't feel that anyone would say Enhancement Shamans were overpowered in PvP or PvE. (And of course, the Warrior/Paladin and Warlock/Druid duos go unnerfed, while I still have to respec for arenas since my team doesn't have a paladin. )
#1302SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
#1326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malovent
So I did some heroics. I had 2 x [Fel Edged Battleaxe]'s and I now got a [Boggspine Knuckles]. I now got [Boggspine Knuckles] in my OH and my [Fel Edged Battleaxe] in my MH.

From what I read in this thread, I should be better off with my new combo?
#1327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Simply put, windfury gives rouglhy 60% more damage to your weapon if you just take the procs into account (in fact it gives much more because it increases the time you stay in flurry, as well as everything that can proc : mangoose or crusader enchants, various trinkets, chamanistic rage, etc....) so just do the math and you'll see that even with very crappy gear windfury is always far better than flametongue.

This is for the mainhand, things are a bit different for the offhand because it gets only 50% of the physical damages, but flametongue -as well as frostband- being magical damage are not affected. Anyway windfury is still the best because it scales with your melee stats, while flametongue scales with spell damage, and you usualy don't have spell damage in your enhancement gear.

Even with the upcoming talents which will provide us with a fair amount of spell damage windfury will still be better if you're wearing epic gear (but it may become a good choice for leveling i guess)
So, until I can replace the Malchazeen with the Fool's Bane or something similar, would you say it would be better to put, say... Rockbiter on the offhand?
#1328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
No. Put Windfury on both of them, and then read the first post in this thread a bit more thoroughly where all of this is explained.
#1329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LazyJoe
Rockbiter is physicakl damage, so it is also affected by the 50% malus. It also generates a lot of aggro so it is always a bad choice. Dual windfury is always the best choice whatever you are using as weapons.
#1330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Rockbiter is physicakl damage, so it is also affected by the 50% malus. It also generates a lot of aggro so it is always a bad choice. Dual windfury is always the best choice whatever you are using as weapons.
Rockbiter hasn't been generating extra threat since the pre expansion TBC talent patch...

But other then that, forget there are such things as other weapon enchants, use windfury, end of story.
#1331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ralgarog
I have a question. What would be the best combination?
Crystalweave Cape - Items - World of Warcraft + Thundering skyfire Diamond + Dragonspine trophy + Abacus of the violent odds

or

Blood Knight War Cloak - Items - World of Warcraft + Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - Items - World of Warcraft + Bloodlust Brooch - Items - World of Warcraft + Hourglass of the Unraveller - Items - World of Warcraft ?
#1332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aurvandil
Originally Posted by Ralgarog

well, you don't have to stack haste you know? If you had access to all of those items

Blood Knight + Relentless + Bloodlust Brooch + dragonspine, infact besides the cloak thats what I'm using.
#1333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Hey, amazingly Lootzor and/or Pawn, or hand calculating the worth of those items based on the itemization weights in the first post would tell you everything you wanted to know about those combinations!
#1334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malan
Hey, amazingly Lootzor and/or Pawn, or hand calculating the worth of those items based on the itemization weights in the first post would tell you everything you wanted to know about those combinations!
Perhaps if you enlarge the font size of the already-perfectly visible and readable red text to say 6 or 7, people might spot it easier and actually bother to read the OP before asking questions.

I feel your pain, Malan.
#1335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Noted and implemented.
#1336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Just wondering about the -enemyarmor stat AEP calculations. Sorry about any spelling errors or obvious mistakes, my point with the reply is the theory if it would work or not, I'm going home tomorrow after two weeks of 12 hour days + overtime, so bear with me please.

x armor gives y% mitigation, right?

So, could you run a simulation of a mob with 75% mitigation, 50%, 25% and last 0% (perhaps more steps then that too),
then implement the DPS increase graph into this: Image:Armor.JPG - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

Shouldnt in theory the DPS graph be inverse proporsional with the armor graph, and isnt there then some way to figure out the DPS increase in relation to armor from that, thus figuring out how much -1 armor increases our DPS (or how much 1 armor decreases our DPS I dont really know how to mathecraftican it), and then add that value to the x that's on the items, especially when we know that the armor cap (I assume for players) is that value (provided it's correct).

I'm fearing it wont work if perhaps mobs have different armor values and cap% then players, but would it be possible to figure out the value of armor penetration versus players like this? I dont know, just a tired after-16-hours-at-work-thought as I haven't seen many suggestions to how to model this stat.

Thanks for the read.
#1337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I spoke to quite a few people about the -Armor effect and the conclusion is that while we could indeed chart some values and say that "for this value X, -Armor is worth Z AEP", but the problem is that it would be worth different AEP for every mob/boss you run into. Because of the varying amounts of armor that bosses have its impossible to assign it a strict conversion value.
#1338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
I spoke to quite a few people about the -Armor effect and the conclusion is that while we could indeed chart some values and say that "for this value X, -Armor is worth Z AEP", but the problem is that it would be worth different AEP for every mob/boss you run into. Because of the varying amounts of armor that bosses have its impossible to assign it a strict conversion value.
I did a bunch of my own speculation on the value of -armor and came to a few conclusions.

1. I couldn't find any established item costs for -armor, but from comparing items with and without the stat then measuring the ilevel difference between them using the item calculator from wowwiki( Talk:Formulas:Item Values - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki ) I came to the conclusion that 1 point of item budget will buy approximately 7 -armor. That value works well for every ilvl141 item with -armor, the ring from Illidan seems to be overbudget using that value but maybe they just wanted his loot to be extra good.

2. I've been using the TargetArmor mod( TargetArmor | Downloads ) for the last few weeks to get an estimate of how much mitigation bosses have. Most are in the 3k-5k armor range (after sunder + ff but no CoR) according to the mod. I have no way of knowing what differences there might be between player mitigation formulas and the ones used for bosses, so I assume they're the same.

3. Using Pater's sim and a scale that matches my buffed stats (2600ap, 35crit, 6.6hit, 32.32haste), with the armor formulas on wowwikiw ( Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki ) I estimated the change in DPS from adding and subtracting 50 item points spent on -armor(same value I use for the other stats) it came out to a value of 2.03 on a target with 4k armor. Which compares favorably with the rest of my scale: Str-2.2 Haste-1.97 CR-1.93 HR-1.83 Agi-1.87 AP-1(to enter the stat in thottbot's thingy divide the scale value by 7, so 2.03 become 0.29).

For other armor values the results do change (5k gives 1.9 and 3k gives 2.18) but not by as dramatic a margin as I thought they would. Keep in mind though that this involves a ton of speculation and with my mediocre math skills this could be completely wrong, but as far as I can tell it makes sense at the very least.
#1339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Hm. So more testing required but we could possibly value it between 1.5-2.0 depending on accuracy.
#1340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
Noted and implemented.
That first post is beautiful, Malan. I haven't looked at the first page of this thread since it was a mere child at 12 pages long or so. I'm very impressed with what you've done with it.

Just a public "thank you"
#1341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackpatch
Echoed. I don't even have anything to do with Enhancement Shamans, I'm just a curious observer, and you've done an amazing job of collecting, organizing, and presenting information.

GG, sir.
#1342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Malan
I spoke to quite a few people about the -Armor effect and the conclusion is that while we could indeed chart some values and say that "for this value X, -Armor is worth Z AEP", but the problem is that it would be worth different AEP for every mob/boss you run into. Because of the varying amounts of armor that bosses have its impossible to assign it a strict conversion value.
Due to varying mob armor, it will ofcourse be very difficult to determine a set AEP for the stat, how about a graph saying with x armor, -armor is worth y AEP? Then we could determine at what armor value of the boss it would be preferable to use the -armor items instead of the 'oldskool' items.

Personally I used MobMitigation to check up on mob\boss armor, but I'll try the other addon suggested and see the results, roughly I think I came up with the same as Morelis with 2.5-5k armor.

In conclusion it's definetly worth having the stat for fights where the mob\boss has alot of armor, while in the typical cloth-mob fights you should go for the 'old' stats?
#1343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Back on the topic of twisting...

(I am aware this uses the old non-nerfed version of WF Totem)

I just used the rogue dps spreadsheet (incredibly nice, btw) from the thread in the class mechanics forum, and inputted almost exact values of one of the sword rogues in my guild. Here's his armory:

The Armory

According to the spreadsheet, the following values are true:

Just poisons: 1466
Just GoA + poisons: 1561
Just WF/Poison: 1594
Twisting WF/GoA: 1633
(Assume WF 100%, GoA 70% (to account for lag, imperfect redrops))

In other words, with pretty darn good, but still imperfect, twisting, your combat sword rogues should gain about 40 dps from twisting in the old system. Once the spreadsheet is updated, I'll try this again. Worst case I'd assume 1/2 of the WF dps goes away.

One thing confuses me though - I'd heard that with the WF "fix", WF would still be a better totem than GoA. I might have used the sheet wrong, because that is not at all consistent with the results I gave above (in which I assume not having specials proc WF would be more than a 30% drop in WF damage, which is what it would take to equal the GoA + poisons buff).

Just something to chew on, or for someone more rogue-knowledgeable to investigate.

I guess the big question is, assuming you're in a 5 melee group, and conservatively guess that each person gets about 30dps from twisting, is it worth it in the loss of either global cooldowns for the shaman, and/or in the loss of shock dps? How much utility is 150 raid dps worth...?
#1344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Disquette
Back on the topic of twisting...

(I am aware this uses the old non-nerfed version of WF Totem)

I just used the rogue dps spreadsheet (incredibly nice, btw) from the thread in the class mechanics forum, and inputted almost exact values of one of the sword rogues in my guild. Here's his armory:

The Armory

According to the spreadsheet, the following values are true:

Just poisons: 1466
Just GoA + poisons: 1561
Just WF/Poison: 1594
Twisting WF/GoA: 1633
(Assume WF 100%, GoA 70% (to account for lag, imperfect redrops))

In other words, with pretty darn good, but still imperfect, twisting, your combat sword rogues should gain about 40 dps from twisting in the old system. Once the spreadsheet is updated, I'll try this again. Worst case I'd assume 1/2 of the WF dps goes away.

One thing confuses me though - I'd heard that with the WF "fix", WF would still be a better totem than GoA. I might have used the sheet wrong, because that is not at all consistent with the results I gave above (in which I assume not having specials proc WF would be more than a 30% drop in WF damage, which is what it would take to equal the GoA + poisons buff).

Just something to chew on, or for someone more rogue-knowledgeable to investigate.

I guess the big question is, assuming you're in a 5 melee group, and conservatively guess that each person gets about 30dps from twisting, is it worth it in the loss of either global cooldowns for the shaman, and/or in the loss of shock dps? How much utility is 150 raid dps worth...?
I'd say it all depends on the fight and your 'duties' in that fight (decursing, purging etc), but I'm going to test this once I get back home, surely with shocks etc we wont output 150 more DPS either way, so for raid buffing this would be the best choice?
#1345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
panny
The flat dps gains across the party seems to be worth it considering spammed shocks are about 130 dps (off the top of my head, I calculated it earlier somewhere). I tried it myself recently, and though it was a bit of a pain, I usually managed a rotation of Stormstrike -> WF totem (rank 1) -> GoA -> Shock, though I didn't have perfect buff uptime, it seemed to work out alright. I essentially lost 50% to 30% of my Shocks across a fight.

The main, personal benefit was that I had less threat due to shocks not getting the benefit of Spirit Weapons. This was pretty good, especially on trash. I'm usually in a hybrid tank/melee group, so that meant the tank got a bit of extra dodge, crit and armour too. On Hydross I twisted with Nature Resist Totem, which worked out well because I can't use every shock cooldown anyway.

I didn't use it on fights where I had to interrupt after I missed ESing some heals due to GCDs, but other than that it was okay.

Once the talent changes go in, it might not be worth doing anymore. Rough figures are 700 spellpower (~2300 AP), which means the new DPS for Earth Shock and Flame Shock being hit every cooldown, including standard debuffs are:

ES: (((.42 * 700)+675)/12)*1.25 = 100 dps
FS: (((.67 * 700)+797)/12)*1.3 = 137 dps

And with the new talents, I'll try switching into an Elemental minor with 10% boosted damage and 5 second cooldown on shocks.

ES: ((.42 * 700)+675)/10)*1.25*1.1 = 133 dps
FS: (((.67 * 700)+797)/12)*1.3*1.1 = 150 dps (I've kept FS cooldown to 12 seconds for dot ticking)

For a total of 288 dps. Granted, there will be a few dropped shocks due to conflicts with the SS timer, but it seems to be a reasonable estimate. You can probably still fit twisting in between shock cooldowns. Along with the lowered mana costs of shocks, watching WFtotem pulses and WF cooldown timers, we might actually have something close to interactivity DPS-wise.

Edit: Amusingly enough, with the +8% Lightning Shield PvP gloves, the +15% Lightning Shield talent, 700 spellpower, and the Stormstrike debuff, each Lightning Shield charge will go off for ~733 damage.

Last edited by panny : 08/13/07 at 3:20 AM.
#1346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Brum
Syphon/Tide MH/OH comparison

Nemaa mentioned some testing back in post 910. He had better results main handing Tide over two 30-minute segments of combat. Just did two one-hour segments myself

Gear was:
1532 AP
11.89% Haste (125)
6.53% Hit (103)
28.32 % Crit

Other buff stuff: RED meta gem, Tsunami Talisman, Ashtongue trinket, and 2x mongoose on weaps

About the runs: I hit the Servant of Raz till Recount's displayed dps stopped moving more than +/- 1 over the course of about 20 secs. Hit stormstrike as soon as it was off cooldown. Each test had three heal breaks lasting about 10 secs. MH Tide test was about two minutes longer. The SoE totem from the main hand Tide run was the result of a misclick, it was down for two seconds so it's neglibile.

Tide MH:

Syphon MH:

Discussion: MHing Syphon came out on top by a scant 11 dps. Of note - my trinkets activated more frequently in the Tide MH run (as evinced by the higher average white hits and crits from that run and the number of buffs applies in the buff gains table). Even with fewer ap procs to go on, however, the average wf hits and crits were higher while main handing Syphon. This is significant because it implies that the higher dmg range on Syphon more than makes up for the increased % of off hand windfuries. However, I am not sure what % of the windfuries in each run were performed by which hand, so this isn't a reasonable conclusion to draw.

Sadly, even though it seemed like I'd reached stable dps levels in both runs, the crit rates for wf and ss between the runs don't match, meaning they weren't long enough to reach the the mean crit rate on those abilities.

Conclusion: Not really satisfied drawing a conclusion and will perform longer runs later on. For now I'll be main handing Syphon. I'm curious to see if others have performed their own tests and what their results are.

P.S. If anyone could point me to an app/mod that parses combat logs and shows the % and # of MH vs OH wf procs that'd be swell for drilling deeper. Thanks
#1347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Interesting results Brum. I've been wondering about this ever since I ran the sim test and it showed MH being slow was more important than OH being slow (to a degree). Since we've sort of migrated over the past couple months to thinking that the most important thing is for the OH to be slower than the MH, I figured my sim had just missed something.

From your tests, it's looking more likely that the "MH needs to be slow" directive still may be the case. Thanks much for the data.

As for the parsing app/mod, during my tests I always just did it 'by hand' in excel, based on the damage of each attack. It's a real pain, to tell the truth, but if you really want the data, you can get it that way.
#1348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wichtel
I got an idear while reading the discussion about the new WF vs GoA. You had a debate up there about FT vs WF on our Offhand and FT might be as good up to a point. But what about the FT-Totem will it scale with Spelldamge too? If thats the case it could be better to put down FT and GoA instead of WF.
#1349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jerem
Originally Posted by Disquette
Since we've sort of migrated over the past couple months to thinking that the most important thing is for the OH to be slower than the MH.
My guild currently faces a shortage of shamans.
I have to admit that reading threads like this one made me eager to discover the class, and I started levelling a shaman.

I think I pretty much understood the logic and mechanics of the class described here, but I am still puzzled about itemization, especially about MH/OH speeds.
The quote above, as well as the original post, both go in the "an OH faster than your MH will hurt your DPS", and suggest "for the OH to be slower than the MH" so that most WF procs occur on the MH.
If I am correct, the Runic Hammer and Arena mace (best pre-BT recommended OH) both are faster than the Blacksmithing mace.

Does it mean that, considering that the Blacksmithing mace is the best (easiest to obtain) MH pre-BT, the current itemization just does not allow any OH slower than your MH until the Black Temple ?
This leads me to wonder if the speed actually matters, or if it is just the difference between them that is the most important ?
I have been trying to use the different tools and simulators described here to verify how a 2.7/2.4 combination would compare to a, for instance, 2.0/2.1 combination. But I sure could use some input from experienced theorycrafting shamans, who are most likely to have tested this already.
#1350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Jerem
Does it mean that, considering that the Blacksmithing mace is the best (easiest to obtain) MH pre-BT, the current itemization just does not allow any OH slower than your MH until the Black Temple ?
I would go as far to say that dragonstrike is _THE_ best weapon available for a shaman. With syphon in OH.

On the note of the syphon I was expecting the proc to be alot better, I'm really disapointed that instead of some uesful stats We get the proc.

The weapon proc accounted for 17784 out of 4 million damage and 12371 out of 3.5million damage in the last 2 raids. Less than 0.5% of my damage.

I was trying to think of a way to improve it, I thought maybe having it proc on every melee hit, but maybe that would be overpowered?
#1351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Disquette
That first post is beautiful, Malan. I haven't looked at the first page of this thread since it was a mere child at 12 pages long or so. I'm very impressed with what you've done with it.

Just a public "thank you"
Bah, I just steal all the info you guys write and reword it

I'd like to get some more graphics up like the one I made to illustrate the windfury cooldown lockout for a fast OH with slow MH. Any thoughts on what concepts would be good to illustrate?
#1352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
USE /wf3sec


MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
USE - /mb


MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
USE - /mf


WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
USE - /wftotem
#1353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kagu
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.

I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats.

Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me.
#1354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Kagu
Amazing thread you guys have here with a lot of interesting theories.

I've been reading through many of these pages but I'd like to know your all opinions on whether the 4 piece t5 is worth getting (no access to chest just yet) by using the legs and shoulders. I myself find the shoulders to be a terrible piece and the legs to be mediocre with a lot of the item level used on stats.

Having Vashj finally drop a shaman token after much saving of dkp I have been able to obtain the helm and I just wondered how you guys would weigh the 5% flurry speed against the possible 1 to 2% crit and 30 or 40 ap from the other possible items I have available to me.
I am going for chest, but t5 shoulders sux - try to get t5 hands.
#1355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Morelis
I did a bunch of my own speculation on the value of -armor and came to a few conclusions.

I came to the conclusion that 1 point of item budget will buy approximately 7 -armor.
Just FYI this is the same conclusion I came to. The trash neck from BT with -175 armor seems to be valued the same as if ithad been +25 rating points.

As far as the value of this stat, it varies from boss to boss which is an annoying answer but it is true. From a distance though it is easy to see how this is a good stat for us as it directly helps roughly 90% of our damage, which cannot be said for anything else except for AP/Str.
#1356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Wichtel
I got an idear while reading the discussion about the new WF vs GoA. You had a debate up there about FT vs WF on our Offhand and FT might be as good up to a point. But what about the FT-Totem will it scale with Spelldamge too? If thats the case it could be better to put down FT and GoA instead of WF.
No.

The only time you should even consider putting FT-totem down is if you have to drop Tranquil Air. Given proper raid buffs (specifically blessing of salv) that should never happen. WF totem is a 20% chance for an extra attack with more AP, flametounge will probably never be able to compete with that for damage due to WF's scaling nature.
#1357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Wichtel
I do know that it sucks right now. But i was talking about FT with the new mental quickness and failed to mention that. We will have up to 700 spell damage and if FT-Totem scales with it i think GoA + FT could be better than wf alone.
#1358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.
#1359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nikiyaki
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.

However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have.

My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle.

Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that.

On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls).

Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up.


I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal)
#1360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Nikiyaki
Hey, I've been a reader of this thread since it began and have been shifting my gear to match the conclusions drawn by data as it becomes available, usually with very positive results. I feel my dps has been steadily increasing over time as I acquire and change gear and so I was happy with this.

However I have some questions I'd like to ask now and I think after browsing they haven't been asked so I apologize if they have.

My first question is, when I first start attacking a mob, for the first 30-60 seconds my dps is very good, and very high, but after that point, even though I don't actually do anything different, it starts to sort of dwindle, sometimes down by as much as 200 on my meter(!) Is this the effect of my OH starting to steal WFs? (I have a 2.6 offhand) I do have the Invigorate set bonus, should I use the proc every now and then to attempt to reset the WFs back to my main hand? Or, is this decline simply natural for our dps in some way? I generally try to pop trinkets/minor cooldowns early so I can use them as many times as possible during a battle.

Secondly, is there anything really particularly good for ekeing out the most dps possible? I use a WF cooldown mod to cast SS at the best time, rotate ES and FS, use haste potions, and pop my trinkets with my shamanistic rage. Does anyone know if mana potting if I start to have mana troubles to continue shocking be more dps than the haste potion? I have the suspicion it would but, I don't really want to start chugging potions to test it out, and testing during raids is too irregular. So I'm curious if anyone has any personal experience with that.

On the same note is it better to drink a wisdom elixir for the mana regen over a fortitude elixir for the health? 1920 mana over a 10min fight or, roughly 4-6 more shocks. I use all other buffs I can think of (agility elixir or flask/20str food/sometimes scrolls).

Are there any other little tricks like that you can use to squeeze out the last drop of damage from your shaman? I've been playing a shaman for nearly two years now but an enhance one for only about 5 months - I'm sure there's little things I've missed picking up.


I'm really, really desperate to increase my damage, it's generally around 800-900 dps (on average, on most fights) at the moment with my set-up (On Armory here) and I need to increase that at least 100 I think to be a consistent raider for my guild. (Which is in BT/Hyjal)
I don't use trinkets with rage anymore. The amount of buffed AP I have on raids more than fills up my mana bar without the added 30 mana per hit with brooch up. Instead I use them as early as possible to squeeze in another use at the end. You are also much better off using relentless assault than you are using any other pot combination. Consider picking up mental quickness and dropping healing focus, it helps a bit.

Otherwise, um.. You have a ton of hit rating. Read the formula and see if any of your banked gear is superior to your stuff with a ton of hit rating (kara ring/moroes cloak for example).
#1361SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Hedin,

I hate to be overly picky about things, but is there any way (perhaps by editing of lua files) I could change the text on the timer bars? I currently use WFCooldown which is a small, unobtrusive yellow bar with just "wf" in the middle of it as opposed to "WF 3 sec cooldown" on yours. Also concerning the melee stats window, is it possible to just show weapon speed? I think that may have been asked before but I'm not sure.

I'd like to use the various facets of your addon but I'm kind of particular about my UI =/
#1362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
Originally Posted by Malan
Flametongue Totem does not scale with spell damage. If it did, yah it'd probably be pretty good. But it doesn't.

If I'm not mistaken, FT imbue and totem both scale with + damage, but with FT totem its the +damage of the person with the buff on their weapon.

So if you drop FT totem, sure you will get your +dmg bonuses but rogues/warriors/melee dps in your group i highly doubt will have any + spell damage gear on and would not recieve it. And I doubt you will have any melee locks/mages/spriests/ele shamans.
#1363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
Originally Posted by Hedin
Small summary on my addons.
WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
USE /wf3sec

MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
USE - /mb

MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
USE - /mf

WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
USE - /wftotem
Not the best place to be asking this, but I once disabled this mod, using the command, and now I can't turn it back on. I've tried deleting the mod and the related wf3sec.lua files in my WTF folder, then put the mod back in. It's enabled and everything but it wont apear or respond to the /wf3sec command. It's not giving lua errors either, might just my game being funny.
#1364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Hello,
I've been reading this thread for quite a while now, been a great help to me!
But i've been wondering something for some time, is the Dragonstrike really that good?I do not have acces to Syphon, but i can get a Dragonstrike, if i manage to raise Blacksmithing
Now, i am an orc, so i'm curious, is the Wicked Edge not better?Also how good is Dragonstrike in comparsion to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver(as an orc) ?

Appreciate any answers!
#1365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ruzia
Originally Posted by Capital
Not the best place to be asking this, but I once disabled this mod, using the command, and now I can't turn it back on. I've tried deleting the mod and the related wf3sec.lua files in my WTF folder, then put the mod back in. It's enabled and everything but it wont apear or respond to the /wf3sec command. It's not giving lua errors either, might just my game being funny.
I looked in the lua file and saw where to edit the bar text. Is there a way to drag the bar or are there only x/y coords?
#1366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
I want to take up the discussion about windfury versus flametongue for the offhand again.

At first, some improvements of Disquette's numbers
Originally Posted by Disquette
100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.15 = 2.967 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.967 * 1.13 = 3.35 (improved Curse of elements ->Malediction talent)
3.35 * 1.05 = 3.52 (Shadowpriest's Misery)
3.52 * 1.05 = 3.70 (5% spell crit rate)
3.70 * 1.15 = 4.25 (elemental weapons)

But i really miss a point, the partial resists. If i remember correctly, flametongue is a non-binary spell and that's why it can be partially resisted and that should lower the damage remarkable (especially on higher level differences), because the -resistances from curse of elements seems not to work for the second roll.
I'm sorry i can't find exactly numbers, but asking your warlocks spamming shadowbolts on lvl 72-73 mobs should confirm this, despite there is allways a curse up.

--

Ok, let's ignore the partial resistsfor the moment. What's about the offhand weapon speed?

Flametongue damage = (35 * weaponspeed + spellpower / 10) (from WoW Wiki

Using 2500 AP = 750 spelldamage, it's

(1.4 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shiv: 126.1 dps raidbuffed
(1.5 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Hacker: 120.4 dps raidbuffed
(1.8 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Shanker: 109.1 dps raidbuffed
(2.6 speed) Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver: 90.7 dps raidbuffed

With higher AP (=spelldamage), faster weapon will even scale better with flametongue.

But please remember, that you have to simulate your flurry and unleashed rage uptime with your weapon combination and use all this numbers for an accurate over all dps.

Last edited by Myul : 08/14/07 at 12:45 AM.
#1367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
That's a decent amount of dps, but I think the main advantage of WF on the offhand is to increase your procrate for both hands to 36%. I can't wait for 2.3!!
#1368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Yesss!!!
Kael down, now I have 4/5 t5!!!
#1369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tataka
Specialization Flaw?

Forgive me if I missed this aspect, as there was a lot to read and I could have possibly skipped over it, but in checking out a good majority of the posters specs I saw that all of them went 20 points into Restoration in order to get that 3% increase chance to hit.

Now, assuming you have plenty of +hit gear wouldn't it be more viable to go with a spec that was Elemental/Enhancement rather than Enhancement/Resto ?

A spec that included the 4 Elemental talents ( Convection / Concussion / Elemental Focus / Reverberation) could theoretically put out more DPS as long as you don't have to be spot healing in 10-25 man raids. In the end it allows you to shock whenever it is offcooldown and have those shocks come 1 second faster every hit. Add that up over a long period of time and thats a lot of extra shocks / extra damage. In a ten minute Vashj fight, assuming you are fighting the entire duration (which is unlikely) you would get roughly 15 extra shocks in. Assuming they hit for around 700 - 1400 dmg each (high end on a crit) thats 10,500 dmg you weren't doing right there on the low end.

I currently use a 16/45/0 spec and have no trouble going OOM and am able to put out a good deal of DPS while still having relatively 'bad' gear.

I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main.

Last edited by Tataka : 08/14/07 at 10:35 AM.
#1370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
#1371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Varag
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?

Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option.
#1372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Yuma
Is the Itemization - Gems list on the main page still the best option for each socket?

Based on stat weighting in lootzor, and the formulas on the main page, it would seem to suggest that unless you have a strong need for the socket bonus, or desire to satisfy a metagem set of requirements, you'd likely want 8 Str gem over any other option.
I think it comes down to personaly preference, but i have got the socket bonus on all my gear that has sockets available.

I guess i'm at the point where my damage isn't really an issue now, I provide the buffs now and put out competative damage (top 3-7) switching gems to all +str would not be of much benefit, as would dropping all hit items, I firmly believe that at this point with my level of gear hit is now close to being as important as other crit/ap/haste.

Miss rates on this weeks raids. (White damage) This is misses only (no dodges)
9% - Teron
7% & 8% - Gurtogg
9% - Azgalor
7% - Archimonde
10% - Najentus

Missing the WWS from the rest of clear for some reason.

Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%.
#1373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?

If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with.

Malan:

This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much.
#1374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Kombinat
I've finally gotten myself into a raiding guild, and Kara is tomorrow. What I'm wondering is this: Can I hope not to embarrass myself in a 10 man situation with my gear? What gear should I have in order to even go into kara?

If you look at my armory, please let me know if there's anything failing in my gear. I've done the best that I can, given what I've had to work with.

Malan:

This is my bible. Please, keep up the good work. Thanks very much.
You really should update your profile so it links to your armory, having to open the page then search, then switch server area to find someone who wants our help is kind of annoying.

I'll edit this when i've had a look.

EDIT: Your gear isn't that bad, its worse than mine was when I first got to 70 though, Have you done all the quest that give rewards? I don't recalll having many of those items and I didn't have any lvl 60 enhancement gear.

The netherstorm/smv chain quests have some nice rewards and the desolation set comes from 5 mans, midnight legs from heroic slave pens.

If your going to kara though, and the other people are geared better or have the leather/mail gear already in there, you can probably skip all the above and go straight for kara epics.

Last edited by Stigmata : 08/14/07 at 11:44 AM.
#1375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Tataka
I could possibly be overlooking something very important (and I'm going to assume that I am and would like to be corrected/enlightened) but maybe I'm just too tired to put my finger on it at the moment. Let me know whether you agree or not. My enhancement shaman is still a baby level 70 but I am very interested in getting him as geared as my main.
I ran with 19/42/0 for a while, but it's actually not as good as I had hoped. The high cost of shocks with relatively low damage returns ended up not being worth it. I can get more dps from going improved totems, mental quickness and then totem twisting WF/GoA than I do from an extra shock. Just to throw some numbers out, my WF hits against Vashj were around 700 and my crits were around 1400. So 1 WF crit does more damage than a shock, and I don't have to put 15 points into elemental to get it.

Long story short, resto talents + totem twisting gives a much higher personal and group dps than putting points into elemental does. I don't think that will change before the new talents come out. Decreasing the cost of shocks and giving us more spell damage will go a long way towards making the first 20 points of elemental much better.
#1376SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Durigen
Kombinat -

Your gear isn't that bad for starting Karazhan. Though you could really use to socket some +hit gems. Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits.

Don't be afriad to wear leather! Prior to Karazhan, there is some great feral leather out there that will give you really nice additions beyond the mail armor you have (particularly a good lucky drop from the rare spawn dragon in Blade's Edge, near Ogri'la, Hematiphus or something like that).

Bet on your tank not being geared up either, if that's the case get KTM Threat Meter (if you don't already) and be very very careful of your threat. Until the tank get's some really nice gear your going to be a strong contender for pulling aggro.

Other than that, just enjoy. Karazhan is really much more about technical aspects of raid performance than gear. Keep your totems up, and your DPS really won't matter as much as you think (even with the WF totem nerf).
#1377SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would suggest using the Lootzor link from the first post and setting the instances to "normal" which will show you a lot of Reputation, quest, and normal mode instance loot that you could work toward. Unfortunately for you, you picked the mail helm instead of the leather one from the quest, which would have been a lot better.
#1378SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Durigen
Get your hit rating up alittle over 100, and then start focusing on crit. Otherwise your likely to be missing a good share of those possible critical hits.
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
#1379SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
Thanks very much for the feedback, It's most appreciated. (I've updated my profile here as well, so should the question come up again it won't waste more of other's time.)

This guild had cleared kara before, it's on farm for the most part. Last night they gave the decapitator to a pally tank, just so he could use the on use effect while pulling when solo.

Given the non-homogeneity of 10-man raiding I'd honestly prefer to be better geared, given that there's more than likely to be group members who gain little to no effect from my buffs. That said, I'd like to think that the buffs I do give would be more beneficial than the lack of synergy with one to two party members. I've got the DPS warriors and rogues fighting over who gets to group with me in gruul attempts already, I'm just a little concerned about the actual viability of my own DPS in a 10 man situation.

I picked the helm before I knew about lootzor or stat weighting. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but thanks for pointing me towards something that would have taken up less of all your time. I often feel terrified while posting on here, lest I be hit with an infraction for being a tool, had I followed the links this mightn't have been necessary.

(I run Omen right now, and I'm very careful not to pull aggro. Thanks for the heads up though.)
#1380SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Besides using omen, I'd recommend that the number one thing you do is stay alive.

You don't have the get out of jail free card that many other classes do (ice block, evasion, cloak of shadows, shield wall, bubble, etc). Resultantly, you need to pay attention to your environment so you don't die. Besides the gentle (or not so gentle) ribbing you'll get for dying a lot, there's a feeling of nastiness you can get if you're dead and the melee suddenly lose a couple hundred AP, extra hit procs, etc..

Concentrate on staying alive until you're comfortable with all the encounters. If they're clearing Kara already, you're not going to be dps-competitive. That doesn't mean not to try your best to dps, it just means that your contribution is going to be even more skewed than normal by your buffs as opposed to personal dps.
#1381SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Another thing which is bothering me, the dodge rate of bosses, I was under the impression it was a flat 5% chance to be dodged, but i'm getting roughtly 7-10%.
Sorry to quote myself, but any thoughts on the above?
#1382SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Stigmata I just checked a few of my WWS parses and I'm showing a 7% dodge on many fights as well. Seems to vary though, other parses are showing as low as 3%.
#1383SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Strange, on the 6 I checked all were above 5%
#1384SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
#1385SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Igniter
I'm really torn between what pants to shoot for, I really like the -ac on azgalor's, bow stitch seems the best stat wise, but skyshatt has the set bonuses and such =\. I also don't like lootz0r, sue me. (since -ac is still pretty iffy)

Last edited by Igniter : 08/14/07 at 2:28 PM.
#1386SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Malan
I had a 3% dodge rate on Leotheras. I attribute that to blind men can't dodge.
Stupid question, but can mobs dodge while casting spells?
#1387SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Disquette
While ignoring the hit gems statement, do you understand how the attack table works? Do you truly think that adding hit = adding crit?
Just wondering if the following thread has been proven wrong. I know it's very old but was just curious as I still see it mentioned from time to time.
#1388SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
I was using ele/enh as well. But after swap over to enh/res, just like others you would be getting almost as much dps, but with better survivabilities. Being able to throw yourself a healing wave that can top you up in a lot of situation making yourself not being a liability to the raid. The rest of the point has been mentioned so i won't repeat. Things might change in patch 2.3 thou.

Just review some of my wws, was having dodge rating hover ard 5%, ranging from 3%-7% as well, and the last blindman fight was at 6%.
#1389SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
That thread seems so misleading.
As far as i know, by adding a 30% crit (imp backstab) it converts 30% of your hit% to crit%. and leaving your miss chance untouch.
So if you are left with 25% hit buffer, the extra 5% crit is not going to convert your miss to hit nor crit but just wasted.
#1390SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Ryley
Stupid question, but can mobs dodge while casting spells?
They can dodge yes, and can even parry if you attack them from the front or if they do the "rotate to face the guy I'm casting at" animation.
#1391SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
Originally Posted by Malan
As has been mentioned before, there are other less tangible benefits to putting points into the resto tree. If all you're concerned about is your personal DPS, than yes, by all means spec into Elemental. The resto tree offers a number of talent points that are beneficial to your raid. Increased totem area of effect, cheaper totems (so that you can continue to DPS and drop totems), improved Ankh (can't drop totems if you're dead!), and a chance at uninteruptable heals (spam heal yourself to stay alive when you pull aggro).
That's part of the reason I'm so interested in seeing how the coming changes affect things. On the one hand, 18 elemental may be sustainable. On the other you still have all of those intangibles. For me I just don't see myself going elemental as my secondary although it should be stated that having to go 45 into Enhancement makes the Resto tree a little less appealing with only 16 to spend in it.

Firm numbers will tell of course. I just think about that Maulgar run where an errant Blast Wave caught a couple healers and my healing literally was the difference between success and failure, light as a no +healing geared guy's healing is.
#1392SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
They can dodge yes, and can even parry if you attack them from the front or if they do the "rotate to face the guy I'm casting at" animation.
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
#1393SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by rava
I'm 99% positive that they can't. If a mob flips to instant cast they can parry, but if it's an actual cast bar they can't; otherwise Reliquary would be ridiculous.
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
#1394SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
You can just spend 14 point in resto.
- 5 point for Imp Healing Wave.
- 2 point for Imp Ankh, 3 point in Totemic Focus
- 3 point for Nature Guidance, 1 for Totemic Mastery

Well this is my preference as i am playing as a dpser/off healer quite frequently.
An Enhancement/Resto Shaman will normally have around 45-50% white dmg, 35-40% windfury, 10% stormstrike, and the rest on misc like shocks.
An Enhancement/Ele Shaman will normally have around 45% white dmg, 30-35% windfury, 8-10% stormstrike, and around 10-15% shocks.

So spending 15-18 point to improve shocks wouldn't help you that much compare to Nature guidance, esp when Enhancement shaman faced threat problem as a major issue. Being able to self sustain and giving the raid more utility (totem range) is more useful.
#1395SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
I know a lot of people are intrigued by the possibilities of Elemental Devastation with the coming changes. Are we able to project out what sort of damage boost we're looking at if you went 18/43 or are we going to have to wait for some ingame parses?
#1396SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Viator, check this post
#1397SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Viator
Whoopsy!

That'll teach me to actually work when I'm in the office.

Even still, losing the 3% to hit from Resto seems too big to lose to me in comparison. I'm also a horrible twister.
#1398SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
I searched EJ before my first response, and just now searched again to verify and have found at least 10 seperate posts by members of the community that say that mobs can dodge and parry while casting.
Take a look at the reliquary thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing.
#1399SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Remember that Ele Devastation only proc when you have a spell crits. For an enh shaman you will probably have around 5-6% spell crit (unless you trying to get spell crits from gem or gear other than int).

Here we assume:
- Taking 6% spell crit for theorycraft
- 9% of melee crit, last 10sec of Ele Devastation
- With 5sec shock non stop spamming

In an IDEAL case:
Ele Devast up time = 6% x 2 shock = 12% (Assuming the shock crit & land nicely)
12% x 9% = 1.08% avg melee crit

Compare to Nature guidance which is 3% melee& spell hit, is truely a big difference. I might be wrong in the ideal calculation. But i think it gives you an idea on how Ele Devastation is currently bad for enhancement shaman.

The incoming changes is not going to do anything to your spell crits but only spell damage. Unless they change it such that FT, FB crit proc for elemental devastation, else it is still not a good talent afterall.
#1400SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Originally Posted by rava
Take a look at the reliquary thread.

http://elitistjerks.com/432404-post186.html for example. There are many others stating the same thing.
That's referring specifically to interrupt abilities though. Another post by Quigon also states that mobs such as Vaelstraz would turn to cast and would proc strings of parries on rogues.

Here's the Quigon post - http://elitistjerks.com/438652-post681.html
I could be wrong on the doge bit, but the parry seems to hold true, even if its a bug in the mechanic.

Last edited by Malan : 08/14/07 at 4:30 PM.
#1401SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sinmul
Originally Posted by Viator
Whoopsy!

That'll teach me to actually work when I'm in the office.

Even still, losing the 3% to hit from Resto seems too big to lose to me in comparison. I'm also a horrible twister.
You'll get used to it with some practice. On my very first Kara run with my alt-Shaman it just happened to be the day of (or close to?) the hot-fix nerf to WF totem. I was a little distraught by that so I decided to totem twist and I felt it turned out pretty well. I wish I would have had a Kara run prior to the nerf just to see number wise where everything fell.

From what I could see graphically, it appeared to proc a good number of times for the Rogue and Prot-warrior in my group. And the stats showed 283 procs for the Rogue and 381 for the Prot-warrior over the course about 3 hours and 15 minutes. So roughly about 1.5 procs per minute for the Rogue and 2.05 per minute for the Warrior. OK ... It doesn't look so good that way, but again, I wish I had before-nerf stats to compare the results. From everything I've read though, it's a drop, which is a shame as WF totem doesn't benefit me at all.

And if you can ignore my low DPS numbers (I wasn't shocking near as much as I should have) and my sub-par gear, I thought I did alright. What was really impressive to me was the speed we took out some of the bosses. Aran was dead in just over 2 minutes ... and that's something I haven't even done with my main.

First Kara Run - wws log.

All I know is my melee group loved having WF and GoA. And towards the end I was even tossing in WoA for the hunters scorpid pet at the beginning and then going into totem twisting.

It's probably just a matter of time before they 'fix' totem twisting. But you know, I had a lot of fun doing it.

-sin
#1402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Sinmul
It's probably just a matter of time before they 'fix' totem twisting. But you know, I had a lot of fun doing it.
That's the word I was looking for. Totem twisting makes raiding as enhancement fun again. The normal auto-attack + shock + SS rotation was boring as hell for me. But that's a bit off-topic, so I'm done talking about it.
#1403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
AEP system

I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form because it may state something that you used to think different about.
I am really impressed by the knowlege collected here and would like to contribute.
Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm:
Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Disquette (post), Pater (post), and Tornhoof (post) have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the items which produce the highest DPS in a raid environment. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of attack power equivalency valuations (AEP), for use in manual calculations or programs such as Lootzor or Pawn: Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1
Here goes my key statement that I will defend bellow:
AEP system’s use is so limited that it can not be used in answering the question which piece of armor will boost dps more.
I will provide simple examples with numbers later but let’s start with the following absurd statement “Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Dr.Lee, Dr. Ivanov and Dr. Jones show that an average clicnic-wide temperature is 35,6 C (while normal is 36,6 C) and blood pressure = 110 systolic (normal being 120). These tests have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the pills which produce the highest positive effect. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of temperature equivalency valuations (TEP), for use in pills selection: 1 TEP =1 C = 10 pulses. Every patient in the clinic will be given any mix of pills that increases their TEP by 2, including those with boiling blood and those at morgue.”
Here are chosen data values from empirical testing by Disquette (post).
Example 1.
2400 AP, 190 HR, 18% crit produce 776,62 dps
100 AP increase results in 789,75 dps, that is 0,1313 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 812,54 dps, that is 0,7184 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 5,4714 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
Example 2.
800 AP, 340 HR, 31,5% crit = 531,4 dps
100 AP increase results in 556,7 dps, that is 0,253 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 539,52 dps, that is 0,1624 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 0,6419 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
From the function analysis pov AEP is “gradient” and it should be different at every point. Replacing non-linear cross-dependent arguments with their linear combination with static weights is not allowed – that is exactly what AEP is doing. Simply put the function dps = function (AEP) can not exist.
So, instead of believing that Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1 for everyone, it is in fact true for only one combination of Str, CR, Agi, Haste, etc. and in a very close vicinity around that combination. Furthermore, even in that vicinity any combination of the above attributes having the same total AEP may provide better or worse DPS than just one attribute value worth of the same AEP.
You can safely replace CR with Agi and AP with Str because they are dependent linearly, but replacing any of Str, Agi, HR, Haste with each other is not possible with static ratio.
Here is an example of non-linear cross interaction.
Think about assigning static AEP value to the item with chance-on-hit. It is obvious that haste will result in item working more, even with possible hidden cooldown that complicates haste-proc dependence. Up to 6 times faster given all available haste buffs. So, depending on haste, stat increase provided by item that is supposed to be measured by AEP can be rather different while the static item always provides same stat benefit . Same goes to haste – increasing haste by set amount will produce different results depending on how many “chance on hit” items you carry in complex non-linear way. As a side note, several items similar to dragonspine trophy can provide something similar to a “time horizon effect” of “black holes” increasing chance on hitting again while the proc lasts to almost 100% effectively making procs last forever.

So, what is the correct answer to the question “what is the best upgrade?” ?
There are several possible solutions.
1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…).
You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps.
Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting.
So far it was not found.
2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement.
So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin.
3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps.
So, my answer would be:
1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps
2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap
3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs.
#1404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
@ Yo, you may want to clean up that wall of text a little.
#1405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Originally Posted by Yo!
I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form because it may state something that you used to think different about.
I am really impressed by the knowlege collected here and would like to contribute.
Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm:

Here goes my key statement that I will defend bellow:
AEP system’s use is so limited that it can not be used in answering the question which piece of armor will boost dps more.
I will provide simple examples with numbers later but let’s start with the following absurd statement “Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Dr.Lee, Dr. Ivanov and Dr. Jones show that an average clicnic-wide temperature is 35,6 C (while normal is 36,6 C) and blood pressure = 110 systolic (normal being 120). These tests have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the pills which produce the highest positive effect. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of temperature equivalency valuations (TEP), for use in pills selection: 1 TEP =1 C = 10 pulses. Every patient in the clinic will be given any mix of pills that increases their TEP by 2, including those with boiling blood and those at morgue.”
Here are chosen data values from empirical testing by Disquette (post).
Example 1.
2400 AP, 190 HR, 18% crit produce 776,62 dps
100 AP increase results in 789,75 dps, that is 0,1313 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 812,54 dps, that is 0,7184 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 5,4714 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
Example 2.
800 AP, 340 HR, 31,5% crit = 531,4 dps
100 AP increase results in 556,7 dps, that is 0,253 increase per point of AP
50 hit rating increase results in 539,52 dps, that is 0,1624 increas per point of HR
This provides HR = 0,6419 AP instead of suggested “for everybody” HR = 1,4 AP
From the function analysis pov AEP is “gradient” and it should be different at every point. Replacing non-linear cross-dependent arguments with their linear combination with static weights is not allowed – that is exactly what AEP is doing. Simply put the function dps = function (AEP) can not exist.
So, instead of believing that Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings) Crit Rating = 2 Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings) Hit Rating = 1.4 Attack Power = 1 for everyone, it is in fact true for only one combination of Str, CR, Agi, Haste, etc. and in a very close vicinity around that combination. Furthermore, even in that vicinity any combination of the above attributes having the same total AEP may provide better or worse DPS than just one attribute value worth of the same AEP.
You can safely replace CR with Agi and AP with Str because they are dependent linearly, but replacing any of Str, Agi, HR, Haste with each other is not possible with static ratio.
Here is an example of non-linear cross interaction.
Think about assigning static AEP value to the item with chance-on-hit. It is obvious that haste will result in item working more, even with possible hidden cooldown that complicates haste-proc dependence. Up to 6 times faster given all available haste buffs. So, depending on haste, stat increase provided by item that is supposed to be measured by AEP can be rather different while the static item always provides same stat benefit . Same goes to haste – increasing haste by set amount will produce different results depending on how many “chance on hit” items you carry in complex non-linear way. As a side note, several items similar to dragonspine trophy can provide something similar to a “time horizon effect” of “black holes” increasing chance on hitting again while the proc lasts to almost 100% effectively making procs last forever.

So, what is the correct answer to the question “what is the best upgrade?” ?
There are several possible solutions.
1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…).
You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps.
Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting.
So far it was not found.
2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement.
So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin.
3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps.
So, my answer would be:
1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps
2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap
3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs.
Yo, this community seems to be working within the solution space that you have indicated. We have not found the holy grail and it may be even more difficult than you indicate considering the ever changing nature of mechanics, talents, and itemization due to patches. Please understand that some of us comprehend the nonlinear nature of the stat interactions and take the tools, data collection, and theories at face value. There are simply no better tools offered at this time. The fact that this is a sane discussion of enhancement shaman theorycraft after 57 pages is an accomplishment itself. I'm willing to accept some non "doctoral" theory and tool development since it is freely provided. If you would like to offer your services as a statistician or data specialist, I'm sure one of the "tool" developers would be happy to use your services.
#1406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
I'm fairly certain everyone here understands that the values listed in the first post are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the ones used to determine the values.
Originally Posted by Yo!
1) the very best one is analytical – finding the exact formula dps =function(ap, crit, hit,…).
You simply put your ap, crit, hit, etc. values and get the probability distribution of expected dps.
Finding analytical solution is very impressive achievement and a holy grail of theorycrafting.
So far it was not found.
2) simulation – creating sim that behaves exactly like in game is considerable achievement.
So far several sims were created, none of them covering all game mechanics such as ppm trinkets, etc. and some of them are not corresponding with the in-game tests by a big margin.
3) matrix-method – uses data, mined during in-game tests directly. It looks up your values in the spreadsheet and returns corresponding recorded dps.
1) Doesn't exist, not worth worrying about.
2) Best source of info we have right now probably why it's used so widely.
3) Such a matrix doesn't exist to my knowledge and the number of variables that would need to be accounted for in producing one is staggering to imagine.

So, my answer would be:
1) try searching available collected raw data for your values, find corresponding dps, search for the new values with planned upgrade and compare the new dps
2) if you can not find your combo recorded – try entering your values into simulating programs that possibly can fill the gap
3) use Lootzor and AEP weights from first page as “poor man’s” last hope, do not use it at all if you are experimenting with alternative gear such as with a lot of +haste and chance-on-hit procs.
1) Search where exactly?
2) Certainly, however doing so is a challenge to less technically inclined users.
3) For those unable/unwilling to simulate for themselves it's certainly better than just guessing at what values are useful.
#1407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Ok, when you start with this:
Originally Posted by Yo!
I am new to this forum, this is my second post only, please do not consider it as a personal assault in any form
but then follow it up with this:
let’s start with the following absurd statement
which makes a satire of the work that several people on this board have accomplished. When you do that, you leave little room for it to be taken as anything other than a personal assault.

That said, your argument is somewhat baffling to me since the quotation you listed states that the AEP are values "generally agreed upon" by the community. Nowhere are claims made that these are perfect and infallible values. While the front post does contain references to the 3 posts that you took some info from, those are there to provide credit to those 3 simulation authors, not to be used as authoritative sources for everything else in the post. Much of the information as we know at has changed quite a bit from the 3 links you're disputing. Further, your solutions fly in the face of the very problem you said you would set out to disprove. You begin by saying that the AEP values are wrong, and then conclude by telling everyone to just use the simulations which are exactly where the AEP values were derived from!
#1408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bufford
Yo! seems a bunch of people are jumping on you for your post, I will only a little...

Let’s take a look of what is a typical answer that one will receive upon asking questions “what is my expected dps given the following gear?” or which is the same, “what is the best upgrade?” That person will be forwarded to the first page for the following algorithm:
Despite the variances those formulas will generally give that person the correct answer. If it does happen to be off it will only be so by a very small margin. When people ask this they want to generally know what item is better for my guy Item A or Item B. They are not asking "Which item will result in 12.5676 dps increase where the exact hard numbers would completely matter. Most people know that it is not going to be the definitive end all answer 100% of the time, but are looking for a little help deciding.

An extreme example I know but if +hit is valued at 1.4 do you think people are really going to wonder why they just added +50 hit and their dps didn't go up if they are already at 500 +hit? No of course not.

People that come and post here are expected to have some base knowledge about their class. These are not the WoW general forums where complete idiocy runs so rampant. It appears you put a lot of work into your numbers, most people here apprecieate hard work so long as you present it with the right attitude, in short welcome to the community.
#1409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Originally Posted by Malan
That's referring specifically to interrupt abilities though. Another post by Quigon also states that mobs such as Vaelstraz would turn to cast and would proc strings of parries on rogues.

Here's the Quigon post - http://elitistjerks.com/438652-post681.html
I could be wrong on the doge bit, but the parry seems to hold true, even if its a bug in the mechanic.
Mobs can parry while casting but they definitely cannot dodge while casting. Otherwise encounters like Illidari Council and Reliquary of Souls would be pretty ridiculous.
#1410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sudoxe
I am a long time reader of the EJ forums and have always loved the ability to find intelligent and mature discussion about relevant topics here. This thread has been a especially good source of information for me in the last while. Thank you Malan for starting this thread and constantly updating that first post as discussion brings out important findings. I have read most of this thread, but I have to admit I have probably missed some as occasionally it gains pages so fast. I have never posted before, but wanted to see if I could direct some discussion towards some things I have been thinking about.

When BC came out this character was a alt and his professions weren't a big deal to me. He currently has Alchemy (Transmute) and Jewelcrafting, with very few patterns. Since then I have switched guilds and he has become my main. I am thinking about switching professions and am wondering if there is a opinion on how much it is worth starting from scratch on some of them or how good they are overall.

Blacksmithing. I am currently running Decapitator MH and Merc Gladiator OH. My guild is in the middle of SSC in content. Is it worth leveling Blacksmithing to get the Dragonstrike or should I just wait until we get to BT to get a Rising Tide and or Syphon? I have been planning on trying to get a second Arena weapon, but no one seems to want a Enhancement Shaman on their Arena Team. I haven't been willing to respec for Arena cause my healing or elemental gear isn't that good either. Just wondering some opinions.

Leatherworking. Is it worth leveling this up fresh? Some of the craftable gear seems really good, the leather more so then the mail. It would also provide another person in our melee group with Drums of Battle.

Enchanting. The ring enchants are very unique and something I leveled on my paladin at the start of BC cause I felt they were a great personal buff from my profession. Is the +4 stats per ring worth it?

Just wondering if anyone has any overall opinions on what professions are the best for a Enhancement Shaman. Please feel free to make any other comments on my gear. I am always looking to improve in any way I can.
#1411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Sudoxe
I am a long time reader of the EJ forums and have always loved the ability to find intelligent and mature discussion about relevant topics here. This thread has been a especially good source of information for me in the last while. Thank you Malan for starting this thread and constantly updating that first post as discussion brings out important findings. I have read most of this thread, but I have to admit I have probably missed some as occasionally it gains pages so fast. I have never posted before, but wanted to see if I could direct some discussion towards some things I have been thinking about.

When BC came out this character was a alt and his professions weren't a big deal to me. He currently has Alchemy (Transmute) and Jewelcrafting, with very few patterns. Since then I have switched guilds and he has become my main. I am thinking about switching professions and am wondering if there is a opinion on how much it is worth starting from scratch on some of them or how good they are overall.

Blacksmithing. I am currently running Decapitator MH and Merc Gladiator OH. My guild is in the middle of SSC in content. Is it worth leveling Blacksmithing to get the Dragonstrike or should I just wait until we get to BT to get a Rising Tide and or Syphon? I have been planning on trying to get a second Arena weapon, but no one seems to want a Enhancement Shaman on their Arena Team. I haven't been willing to respec for Arena cause my healing or elemental gear isn't that good either. Just wondering some opinions.

Leatherworking. Is it worth leveling this up fresh? Some of the craftable gear seems really good, the leather more so then the mail. It would also provide another person in our melee group with Drums of Battle.

Enchanting. The ring enchants are very unique and something I leveled on my paladin at the start of BC cause I felt they were a great personal buff from my profession. Is the +4 stats per ring worth it?

Just wondering if anyone has any overall opinions on what professions are the best for a Enhancement Shaman. Please feel free to make any other comments on my gear. I am always looking to improve in any way I can.
Smithing is definitely worth it. Dragonstrike is an amazing weapon that I am unable to replace in the current raid zones. I leveled up leather working for the sole purpose of Drums of Battle, but I haven't paid much attention to the craftable gear. I wouldn't worry about enchanting; +4 stats is revered scales of the sand, something that I think a half dozen guilds that have been killing Archimonde for a while have accomplished.
#1412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
If I weren't shackled to Alchemy for the rest of my life I'd do Leatherworking and Blacksmithing for sure. Get out while you still can!
#1413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Sebudai
If I weren't shackled to Alchemy for the rest of my life I'd do Leatherworking and Blacksmithing for sure. Get out while you still can!
I'm already a leatherworker, but I'm scared that leveling blacksmithing will be extremely expensive to do without mining. I get the impression that it costs about 5000G or more to get blacksmithing from 0-375 these days, anyone got any information about that?
#1414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
Further, your solutions fly in the face of the very problem you said you would set out to disprove. You begin by saying that the AEP values are wrong, and then conclude by telling everyone to just use the simulations which are exactly where the AEP values were derived from!
Nothing wrong here. These sims helped to find AEP values as average over huge range of possible stat combos. What I am saying is that using these average values for the whole spectrum of these combos is wrong. Sims can be used to find real AEP at any given point (which is what gradient is) that can be used at lootzor for first-hand comparison with careful understanding that the further you get from starting point (the more items you are going to change) the more different results will be from what AEP score suggests leading to a possible mistake in choosing items. It is much more accurate to use sim for one set of items, get expected DPS 1, use sim for another set, get expected DPS 2, compare, continue if needed.
#1415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Aeolian
Ardonomus, see if some of your guild members will help you out. The three other shamans in my guild contributed a lot of the ore needed to level blacksmithing from 300-375. Pre-300 is actually fairly inexpensive if your server has a decent economy. I spent roughly 700g to get to 300, after that I spent another 1000g or so on my own materials. Added to that the large chunk I had given to me it would probably total 2500g or so. Its definitely not cheap, and I had to put off getting my epic mount to power level Leatherworking as well as Blacksmithing.

But with all that said, Dragonstrike is very much worth it. Its unlikely that I will replace it any time soon. Even once my guild is into Black Temple I'll probably run with it along side Syphon.
#1416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Bufford
Yo! seems a bunch of people are jumping on you for your post, I will only a little...
Despite the variances those formulas will generally give that person the correct answer. If it does happen to be off it will only be so by a very small margin. When people ask this they want to generally know what item is better for my guy Item A or Item B. ...
It all comes down to the question how much "a very small margin" is
My examples with data that is not way different from what can happen in a game show that AEP values are several times off of what they should be at the given situation. If put into Lootzor it will provide the list of possible upgrades in the wrong order, some of the items will actually lead to decrese in DPS.

Originally Posted by Bufford
It appears you put a lot of work into your numbers, most people here apprecieate hard work so long as you present it with the right attitude, in short welcome to the community.
Thanks!
#1417SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo!
Nothing wrong here. These sims helped to find AEP values as average over huge range of possible stat combos. What I am saying is that using these average values for the whole spectrum of these combos is wrong. Sims can be used to find real AEP at any given point (which is what gradient is) that can be used at lootzor for first-hand comparison with careful understanding that the further you get from starting point (the more items you are going to change) the more different results will be from what AEP score suggests leading to a possible mistake in choosing items. It is much more accurate to use sim for one set of items, get expected DPS 1, use sim for another set, get expected DPS 2, compare, continue if needed.
This is what I was worried about. There is definitely some of the gradient effect (to use a coarse term), but when I went through the output of the sim after running the one called "big test", the gradient effect wasn't nearly as pronounced as I thought it would be.

Yeah, as your crit% went up, so did the effect of each AP increase. However, when looking at it in dps% increases per increases in hit/crit/AP, it was much closer to linear than I thought it would be.

That's on a relatively old version of the sim - I really need to get my laptop back from the shop so I can do more sim v. real-life tests to tune it right.

That's my biggest concern right now. I want to be able to look at a recap/wws of a fight, find out what my crit%, hit%, dodge%, parry% was, put them into the sim along with my base AP, and come within 1% of the observed dps for a variety of gear. (assuming I know the mob armor). I don't really care who's sim does this - joe's, pater's, tornhoof's closed form. It'd just be nice to have any one of them mirror game mechanics close enough so that we can say "here it is, that is all".
#1418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis
I'm fairly certain everyone here understands that the values listed in the first post are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the ones used to determine the values.
This hits the nail! This is exactly what has to be written before introducing AEP numbers.
However they are only to be used as a general guide if your stats are similar to the only one "perfect" combo - not all the ones used to determine the values. Sims cover very different combos and than simply round up all the results producing average AEP values that are several times different from the AEP values for some of combos covered.

Originally Posted by Morelis
1) Doesn't exist, not worth worrying about.
2) Best source of info we have right now probably why it's used so widely.
3) Such a matrix doesn't exist to my knowledge and the number of variables that would need to be accounted for in producing one is staggering to imagine.
1) Search where exactly?
2) Certainly, however doing so is a challenge to less technically inclined users.
3) For those unable/unwilling to simulate for themselves it's certainly better than just guessing at what values are useful.
1.1 Let's hope Blizzard has one
1.2 Agreed
1.3 It is of course far from perfect - provides data through set intervals (discrete), runs through combos of only few stats, may be collected from too short samples, some unaccounted events could affect data while being recorded, etc. But they are still better for the large spectrum of possible combos than AEP that is perfect for only one and good in the small vicinity. So, that being said, if you happen to find your stats being recorded - use it, if not use sim.
2.1 Data sets mentioned on first page can be used better than AEP system for the values they cover.
2.2. Certainly.
2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful?

Last edited by Yo! : 08/14/07 at 8:32 PM.
#1419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful?
Yes, it is much better than just guessing. I suspect you're overestimating the difference in values. I know that for myself my stats have gone from very close to the numbers the original scales are based on to very different. I've gained lots of ap, some crit, tons of haste and lost lots of hit, but when I make a scale today using the same sim the original one was created with the values have only changed by 0.2-0.3. This means that putting them into lootzor results in a nearly identical order for item rankings, the best items are still the best. It's not exactly the same but it's so close as not to matter.
#1420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
2.3 Using AEP+lootzor will definitely provide wrong order of possible upgrades for some stat combos that players may have with some items leading to decrese in DPS. Is it better than just guessing at what values are useful?
Show us which items are wrong then, because it sure as heck seems accurate to me, once you consider that Lootzor doesn't have haste rating enabled.
#1421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Show us which items are wrong then, because it sure as heck seems accurate to me, once you consider that Lootzor doesn't have haste rating enabled.
I agree, I'd like to see an example where there's an appreciable upgrade in Lootzor rating but sims say that the item would be a downgrade.
#1422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3xereva
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then...
#1423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by xereva
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then...
The extra 16dps on the weapon will more than compensate for the 0.1 difference.
#1424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
@Yo, I wrote a program to specifically tackle the "problem" you wrote about in your long post. See page one under models/simulators etc. While the actual result dps migh be too high (ideal encounter and stuff) the change in dps based on equipment changes should scale linearly too.

On the other hand while the calculated AEP values are only valid for one exact build, the deviation for other builds/equip values is not that great, without considering the extreme values, it is around 0.1 for each value. So simply spoken, if you have no crit to keep UR/flurry up to a certain extent, +crit is more valuable for you by a small amount.
If you have no +hit to even get 9% +hit, +hit is more valuable etc.

But for a common raidbuffed enh shaman the calculated aep values are as valid as they can get without considering each equipment individually, which my program does, the results are fairly identical, though.
#1425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hexxus
Originally Posted by xereva
I'm following this thread for quiet some time already and i love it. This is my first post here.
I'm using two 2.6 speed blue weapons at the moment ([Demonblood Eviscerator] and [Boggspine Knuckles]). We only just started to do kara every now and then and yesterday [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] dropped and i got it. Now i know that slower weapons are better and that it's also good to have the same speed main and offhand. But you think i could better use the wolf paw then the eviscerator? At least my offhand is slower then...
I currently use [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] in my main hand.
Throw Crusader or Mongoose on that badboy and you'll be in good shape.
#1426SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Ok, so I've been thinking of tweaking my spec a little. Right now I'm 2/2 into Guardian totems. I've seen some use in pvp but more importantly and the primary reason of my post: During Lady Vashj fight I switch myself in the MTs group to give him grounding totem effect to eat her Shock Burst on phase 1/3. I'm wondering if any other shaman that's been in charge has done this with or without this talent as sometimes I put it down and gets absorbed right away and I shit myself as I watch my CD tick away slowly. The timing is supposedly "random" was just wondering if anyone has ever experienced it more than once every fifteen seconds.
#1427SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Zorak
A bit offtopic, sorry.

Hello. This is my first post, but ive been reading this forum for quite some time now,
especially this thread as i am playing a shaman myself. Thanks all you guys for
working out all these facts. I am particularly taken with the AEP calculations. Because
of that, i created a small app that allows me (and you) to compare items based on
those values without being in the game (pawn) or calculating.

I do not know if such a program already existed and if so, it will most likely be better
than mine. But well, give it a try if you are curious. Note that I created the program for
me mainly, i know that it works for me (shaman) on my pc, but i did not really test the
other template features (it allows you to create aep values for nearly every stat, not only
those relevant for us shamans.) and yea, the code is sloppy. if you want it to crash,
it will crash. but normally it should work. if not, tell me.

I currently do not update the program as it suits my needs. However, if some of you guys
(more than 3) like it, tell me what to change, tell me about bugs, suggestions and
i will see what i can do. does anyone need a good xml itemdatabase btw? thats the
main problem currently as the allakhazam database does not support haste (i think).



If you are curious, you can find further facts, a small howto and more screenshots here.

i can not create a new post because i do not have enough posts. if some of you guys
think that it is worth it, you can do so (but link to this post please).

oh yea and: USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! (the program does not do anything fancy and
it will not try to open or alter any file except the templates.xml file.)

Last edited by Zorak : 08/15/07 at 9:30 AM.
#1428SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by falonub
Ok, so I've been thinking of tweaking my spec a little. Right now I'm 2/2 into Guardian totems. I've seen some use in pvp but more importantly and the primary reason of my post: During Lady Vashj fight I switch myself in the MTs group to give him grounding totem effect to eat her Shock Burst on phase 1/3. I'm wondering if any other shaman that's been in charge has done this with or without this talent as sometimes I put it down and gets absorbed right away and I shit myself as I watch my CD tick away slowly. The timing is supposedly "random" was just wondering if anyone has ever experienced it more than once every fifteen seconds.
I was under the impression the CD was 15 seconds, I've never done it myself since we have a resto shaman in the with tank for this, but I dont recall them ever complaining the CD was shorter than grounding.
#1429SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Since I recently got a chance to grab [Icon of Unyielding Courage], I've been wondering if anyone has yet found an AEP value for -armor. (And yes, I know that +hit isn't the best stat I can get )
#1430SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by drc
Since I recently got a chance to grab [Icon of Unyielding Courage], I've been wondering if anyone has yet found an AEP value for -armor. (And yes, I know that +hit isn't the best stat I can get )
There's too many uknowns and its too dynamic since it depends entirely on what the enemy's armor is at the time that you decide to ignore some more. The best we can tell is that 1 point of - Armor seems to be worth 7 item budget points (this was stated 2-3 pages back) and that its AEP value would be something between 1 and 2.2. Not very conclusive, but it would seem to indicate that its a decent stat to have.
#1431SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Crax
I'm new, so forgive me if this is obvious.

The only potential drawback to -armor is that on very low armor mobs, it's possible for it to be worthless since -armor has no effect once a mobs armor is reduced to zero. However, I don't think this is currently an issue for any significant raid bosses.

In fact, the recent testing information in the Hemo thread would seem to indicate that we (the theorycrafting community) have underestimated the value of -armor for quite some time.
#1432SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Can a mob have negative armor? Or once it is at 0 there is no further reduction available?

I'm currently trying to work out future gear options, stormrage signet, BT trash neck, madness of the betrayer and soul cleaver.

What I'm thinking is, if reducing X mob Y armor then the minimum benefit would be Z additional damage, something like Morogrim has pretty high armor, where as Solarian seems to have very little, possibly none?

Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this?
#1433SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Zorak
Hello. This is my first post, but ive been reading this forum for quite some time now,
especially this thread as i am playing a shaman myself. Thanks all you guys for
working out all these facts. I am particularly taken with the AEP calculations. Because
of that, i created a small app that allows me (and you) to compare items based on
those values without being in the game (pawn) or calculating.

...
stuff
...
Very cool, thanks!

On the topic of grounding totems on vashj, I was charged with the same responsibility. I have guardian totems in my build because I pvp occasionally and like them for that purpose. It just happened to be useful in raiding too. I never encountered an instance where grounding was needed and I wasn't able to place it in time.
#1434SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
The problem as described to me was that the calculations do not hold true between the various ranges. -800 armor when the mob only has 2000 armor will lead to a much higher damage increase than if the mob has 20,000 armor and you remove 800. Its not a linear curve.
#1435SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Gwaihir
I think I saw a post in the DPS warrior thread that investigated this specifically.

Yea, this post:
http://elitistjerks.com/442876-post49.html concluded that -armor stops giving any benefit at all once the boss is at zero armor.
#1436SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Here is the prove, that shows that "average" AEP’s use is wrong for the majority of stat combos possible in game by a big margin.

I took data from empirical testing by Disquette and used following algorithm:
For each Hit/AP combo with given crit remember recorded dps.
Find combo that is the previous one with +100 ap and get new dps.
Find the difference and divide it by 100 to get dps increase per point of AP.
Do the same for +50 hit rating step (these are minimal steps presented in collected data) and find dps increase per point of HR. Divide dps per HR by dps per AP to find local AEP ratio for the initial Hit/AP combo.
Here are the results:




The first graph shows actual AEP numbers. Look at how big standard deviation (expected difference from the mean) is = 0.77. Mean = 1.1, it is not surprising that it is different from “generally agreed upon” 1.3 as the later can be easily obtained with another covered range of stat combos. It proves again that these general “average” AEP values provide nothing for specific stat combos that players come up with. Second graph shows probability distribution function for AEP. Each column is 0.2 range – that is a significant change for the weight value. 43% of combos fall into range where actual AEP is below mean by 10% and more, 41% are above mean by 10%, only 16% of combos are within 10% difference from mean. So, there is 84% chance over the whole range of covered combos, that average AEP will be different from your actual AEP by more than 10%. There is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%. That is for one pair Hit-AP only. If same holds true for other pairs, one can speculate, that the probability of at least one weights being wrong by 30% or more is 1-0.455^(number of non-linear dependant attributes). There are 4 such major attributes (AP, Hit, Crit, Haste) so it becomes 96% chance that at least 1 of the weights will be more than 30% wrong.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/15/07 at 12:00 PM.
#1437SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Statistics to the rescue, nice work.
#1438SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
You state that 0.77 is a large standard deviation, but large compared to what? What is the agreed upon variance in standard deviation for this data?

If I'm understanding this correctly (and given my record there's a good chance that I'm not), you're stating that there is a 96% chance that when comparing Item A to Item B using Pawn or Lootzor, that Item B will incorrectly appear to be an upgrade, because at least one of the stats is valued incorrectly for the particular stats that the player has *at that moment in time*?

If that's the case... does it even really matter? Essentially if a guy with 800 AP, 50 Hit Rating and 15% Crit looks at an item that was valued using AEP that came from a guy with 2200 AP, 150 Hit, 30% Crit - why should he not value that item as an upgrade against a "meta set" of itemization that represents what he would eventually have? ie, I base my upgrades against the expected outcome of all my upgrades, my final set of expected gear.

Last edited by Malan : 08/15/07 at 12:23 PM.
#1439SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this?
According to the theories mentioned above the effectiveness of Sunder Armor depends on the enemy's armor. Found something interesting on wowwiki (quoting Sunder Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki) regarding those theories, though:

Sunder Armor is equally effective against any amount of armor, assuming that the armor of a target is at least equal to the armor reduction of a stack of Sunder Armors. This is counter-intuitive, as the amount of damage reduction % decreases with each armor point. However, the effectiveness of each 1% damage reduction increases the more you already have.
That article, if I'm not totally mistaken, suggests -armor is a very valuable stat against any enemy regardless of its armor. And, by the way, implicitly claims that negative armor does not exist, which confirms the result of a quick ingame test.
#1440SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Can a mob have negative armor? Or once it is at 0 there is no further reduction available?

I'm currently trying to work out future gear options, stormrage signet, BT trash neck, madness of the betrayer and soul cleaver.

What I'm thinking is, if reducing X mob Y armor then the minimum benefit would be Z additional damage, something like Morogrim has pretty high armor, where as Solarian seems to have very little, possibly none?

Sunder is 520 per sunder applied, Would it be possible to work it out from this?
You can get TargerArmor to get an "idea" of how much AC your target has, but it doesn't seem to take into account armor penetration or it's entirely inaccurate. I just use the BT neck while a warrior uses all of the -armor jazz and we're showing nearly the same numbers for our targets ac value.
#1441SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oogg
Regression Analysis?

Yo,

Can you do some regression analysis on the variables (AP, crit, hit, etc) and derive a set of variable functions for us to use in our simulations? Barring that, we will have to stick to the linear models we have. You seem to have the mathematical prowess to accomplish this.

On another note. Even if you derive variable functions, they will still need to be applied from the gear backwards as in the lootzor or Tornhoof's model. The reason is that although you may discover the optimal combination of stats at specific values (maximums), the gear may not exist to accommodate that specific maximum. This is one of the reasons that I liked Tornhoof's closed simulation so much. It removed all of the uncontrolled variables and tested existing gear combinations to discover the optimal combinations of gear available to you at that time. I'm speculating, but I think a combination of variable functions and a closed model like Tornhoof's will be the closest we can come to our goal.
#1442SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Juice
Statistics to the rescue, nice work.
Look at the pretty line I get when I look at AP in steps of 400, against larger steps of the increased hit and crit rate



Out of the 36 datapoints, we had:
Mean: 0.23 Dps/AP
StDev: 0.02 (9% of the mean)

It looks like we have a really great model for AP, over a huge range of hit/crit values! Furthermore, since 30% is being accepted as the "close enough" barometer for values by Yo!, I'll use that to test the 36 datapoints I have. Exactly 0 of them fall outside 30% of the mean, so I guess I have a perfect data set.

It even works out like we'd expect, with increasing returns on AP as our hit and crit rate increase (shown by the upward trend in the graph).

Statistics to the rescue indeed.

Now, back to the big_test.xls sheet that i'd uploaded so that people could review it, did everyone just ignore the lines on the bottom of my data set where I included:



I specifically put in those calculations in the big results test so that people would know how widely varied the data points were.

So, let's look at those big hit rating swings. My biggest mistake, probably, was making the steps too small. If you use larger steps, you get nicer numbers to look at. They make pretty graphs like the one above. It has so much variation between runs (that's how shaman work), that sometimes you get flukey things. When you were going through the result data, did you really think that increasing hit rating should decrease dps?

I really hope not. Yet running the sim, there were instances of that. It's yet another thing I specifically pointed out in a separate column so that people would know what they're looking it. So, instead of wallowing through the minutae just so you can exclaim "it's all wrong and worthless", how about you take some time and figure out if, in a broader context, it's meaningful?

Here's an example. I took three of the AP levels (I chose 900, 1700, 2500, because they're evenly spaced and are WAY out of each other's range, so they should satisfy your complaint about gear levels resulting diff APE ratings). I then eliminated half of the hit rating steps (increasing them by 100 instead of 50). This should give me a better picture, and again, should address your notion that APE are not valid across gear ranges.

Now let's look at the pretty picture:


No, it's not nearly as nice as the AP graph, but it's still pretty consistent. Much more than the 70% variability you were discussing. In this case, the average dps/hitrating = .275. The stdev = 0.084 (for a stdev 31% of the mean). This time, using your "30% variation is ok" concept, 71% of data points fall into the acceptable range. If I look across all gear levels, and say that each hit rating is worth just a little bit more than one AP, I'd be pretty accurate, based on the two charts I have posted above, which cover almost the entire range of gearing choices.

Statistics can say what ever you want them to, pretty much. I could probably argue on Yo!'s side and say that all this theorycraft in here is utter garbage, at best meaningless to the shaman community, and at worst ill-advising people. I just need to find the right data that makes graphs that appear horrendous or beautiful.

That's why I'm glad that the theorycraft has been born out in actual game scenarios, with multiple people of varied gear-levels saying "i changed out my hit gems for AP or crit gems, started focusing more on crit and AP, and my dps went up significantly".

I don't know how shaman dps works in many instances. There's all sorts of things that are hard to account for. But just like looking for a coin at night, the first places you check is where it's already light, and you hope you find it there.
#1443SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
When looking at the armor range on bosses it really isn't that large a spread, just about every boss I've seen using targetarmor falls between 3500 and 5500 armor - 25% to 35% mitigation.

As for hitting 0 and -armor losing it's value the lowest I've seen is Essence of Suffering which seems to average about 1700 after sunder and FF, add in CoR and you'd still need -900 to hit 0. Since the most a shaman can equip right now is -301(-601 with MotB procced) it's really not an issue.

As for AEP values I was hoping to get some feedback on my speculation here: http://elitistjerks.com/447956-post1339.html It seems to me that we know how much -armor changes our dps since we know the armor mitigation formulas. The only variables are how much it costs in the item budget, which we don't know but can estimate and what are good values for boss armor which we have a pretty decent idea of. So if we assume 7 -armor for 1 item point and bosses around 4500 armor, I think it's safe to say that on a shaman with T6ish stats(I use my own) it's worth about 1.9(1.8 for 5500 and 2.04 for 3500, 2.34 on EoS btw).
#1444SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aramund
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.

I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same.
#1445SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Aramund
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.

I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same.
That is the way I understood theory so far. The wowwiki article I mentioned earlier supports that, too. That'd make -armor valuable not only against targets with just enough armor left to reduce after Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire (which is pretty obvious), but also against high armor targets.
#1446SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Aramund
Maybe its a bad assumption, but I always assumed armor penetration would work in the exact opposite way that gaining armor works. When you gain 1,000 armor you gain a set amount of damage reduction. In other words, even though you get a larger percentage of mitigation going from 1,000 armor to 2000 armor than you do going from 10,000 armor to 11,000 armor, the actual amount of damage reduced by that 1,000 armor class gain remains the same.

I always assumed that armor penetration would hold true to this, just backwards. In other words, 300 armor penetration would increase damage by the same amount against a target with 10,000 armor as it would against a target with 1,000 armor. The 1,000 armor target would lose a larger percentage of mitigation obviously, but the increase in damage done to the targets would remain the same.
I remember a lengthy thread on the conquest forums a couple years back basically said the same thing, and at the time it was probably true, but it doesn't appear to be anymore.

The formula on Armor - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki show a non-linear curve on armor mitigation. You can check it plugging random armory profiles into that formula and you'll see the mitigation % matches it exactly.

As an example using that formula if you assume a 1000 hit and then a 1000 armor reduction we'll get the following results:
10000 armor = 513.56
9000 armor = 539.82
Difference = 26.26

2000 armor = 840.73
1000 armor = 913.48
Difference = 72.74

So unless I've missed something(which is very possible), the armor the mob starts with is a large factor in determining the value of -armor.
#1447SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Iol
Originally Posted by Morelis
So unless I've missed something(which is very possible), the armor the mob starts with is a large factor in determining the value of -armor.
The thing you missed is that you based your example on a static 1000 damage hit.

Lowering the Armor makes the % of reduction go down, just like adding armor makes it go up. The value of -armor will go up as your base dmg go up.

For example:

If your target has 50% DR and you can push it to 48% with -armor then thats a 4% increase in dps.

So if you push at 800 dps, then you'd be at 832, for the duration of the -armor. So as your base DPS will go up, so will the value from -armor.

Last edited by Iol : 08/15/07 at 6:12 PM.
#1448SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Iol
The thing you missed is that you based your example on a static 1000 damage hit.

Lowering the Armor makes the % of reduction go down, just like adding armor makes it go up. The value of -armor will go up as your base dmg go up.

For example:

If your target has 50% DR and you can push it to 48% with -armor then thats a 4% increase in dps.

So if you push at 800 dps, then you'd be at 832, for the duration of the -armor. So as your base DPS will go up, so will the value from -armor.
The numerical difference will increase with an increase in the base damage, but the percentage change in damage will always be the same, and will always be larger for the lower armor target. Right?
#1449SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Since you are using x to value the increase/decrease for both cases, it will allways be the same.

I want to add some numbers to the armor penetration discussion to support Morelis claim.

Using the same formula from wowwiki

Levels 60+ DR% = Armor / (Armor+400+85*(Level+4.5*(Level-59)))

x / (x+400+85*(70+4.5*(70-59))) =
x / (x+10557.5) =

you: lvl 70, hitting for 1000 damage, attackspeed 1.0
enemy1: lvl 70, 30.000 armor = 73.97% reduction or 260.3 dmg/hit
enemy2: lvl 70, 20.000 armor = 65.45% reduction or 345.5 dmg/hit
enemy3: lvl 70, 10.000 armor = 48.64% reduction or 513.6 dmg/hit
enemy4: lvl 70, 05.000 armor = 32.13% reduction or 678.7 dmg/hit
enemy5: lvl 70, 02.000 armor = 15.93% reduction or 840.7 dmg/hit
enemy6: lvl 70, 01.500 armor = 12.44% reduction or 875.6 dmg/hit


Debuffing the mob with sunder armor, expose armor, fearie fire or wearing armor penetration gear for an amount of -1000 armor will net you those numbers:

enemy1: lvl 70, 29.000 armor = 73.11% reduction or 268.9 dmg/hit
enemy2: lvl 70, 19.000 armor = 64.28% reduction or 357.2 dmg/hit
enemy3: lvl 70, 09.000 armor = 46.02% reduction or 539.8 dmg/hit
enemy4: lvl 70, 04.000 armor = 27.47% reduction or 725.3 dmg/hit
enemy5: lvl 70, 01.000 armor = 08.65% reduction or 913.5 dmg/hit
enemy6: lvl 70, 00.500 armor = 04.52% reduction or 954.8 dmg/hit

enemy1: 3.3% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy2: 3.4% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy3: 5.1% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy4: 6.9% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy5: 8.6% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration
enemy6: 9.0% dmg increase from 1000 armor penetration

Bossarmor is about 5.000 to 8.000 on average defore debuffs are applied, that's why a missing fearie fire will hurt your melee close as much as a missing pot or minor attackpower buff. Armor penetration could help here a lot and it's a decent pvp stat while fighting cloth wearer with 500 resilence. But there's no way you could say 1 AP = -12.5 armor pen on general or average.
#1450SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Well we certainly could do an average and work an AEP from that, but it would be pretty damn inaccurate.
#1451SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
Well we certainly could do an average and work an AEP from that, but it would be pretty damn inaccurate.
I wouldn't say an average between 1.8 and 2.04 would be that big of a deal, it would certainly be more accurate than just ignoring the stat or treating it as some mysterious voodoo that can't be quantified.
#1452SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aiaeu
I understand that the windfury totem is still the best totem to use for melee groups BUT my group recently has been shaman, rogue,druid, hunter and usually an OT protection warrior. This particular rogue usually is the highest dps'r in the guild and I drop windfury for him. I was wondering if the dps of the singular rogue outweighs the rights of the others in the group. I usually twist the totems in the raid anyway but I want to know if windfury or agility should be the totem to drop in this type of group if i am unable to twist for a few seconds.

Also if i do get a fury warrior in the group how can i educate them on the windfury change. I've looked at the totem change page and I get lost in the details of rogues and warriors and conflicting information.
#1453SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
In the group you described I'd probably say GoA unless that prot warrior is particularly rage/threat starved. If you're getting a fury warrior he won't need to change too much, I believe the totem change thread mentioned using heroic strike a lot more.
#1454SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
I have a question as far as crafted weapons go.

I currently have t3 Mainhand axe, i was wondering if its worth the effort to switch over to the tier3 mace.

My guild is working on kael'thas with SSc on farm. So theres an idea on loot available to me.

Not sure if the t3 mace with the haste proc is worth getting when there are things like syphon in my sorta-near future.

Any other gear advice would be greatly appreciated (besides getting merc offhand lol)
#1455SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
Originally Posted by Kreltok
I have a question as far as crafted weapons go.

I currently have t3 Mainhand axe, i was wondering if its worth the effort to switch over to the tier3 mace.

My guild is working on kael'thas with SSc on farm. So theres an idea on loot available to me.

Not sure if the t3 mace with the haste proc is worth getting when there are things like syphon in my sorta-near future.

Any other gear advice would be greatly appreciated (besides getting merc offhand lol)
from a raiding stand-point, the mace's proc makes it much better than the stun from the axe, not to mention looking better.

I think if you'll read up on previous posts in here or just do a search, you'll nab some answers.
#1456SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Kreltok
I have a question as far as crafted weapons go.

I currently have t3 Mainhand axe, i was wondering if its worth the effort to switch over to the tier3 mace.

My guild is working on kael'thas with SSc on farm. So theres an idea on loot available to me.

Not sure if the t3 mace with the haste proc is worth getting when there are things like syphon in my sorta-near future.
I'm not sure, but I reckon that that decision is up to you.

If you have all the cash in the world I'd say that you should go for it since that weapon will last quite a while.


(besides getting merc offhand lol)
No
#1457SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ikillyouheal
Originally Posted by Suazo
from a raiding stand-point, the mace's proc makes it much better than the stun from the axe, not to mention looking better.
What axe are you speaking of? I assume you thought he was talking about the 2handed mace?
#1458SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
I've been doing some reading but no clear answers really.

i dont have all the money in the world but if it will improve my performance and last well into BT then I will put forth the farming effort to get it.

and I'm actually planning on getting rod of the sun king for my offhand.

Just not sure how often the mace procs and if it's often enough to make it worth my while to farm up the mats.
#1459SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Kreltok
I've been doing some reading but no clear answers really.

i dont have all the money in the world but if it will improve my performance and last well into BT then I will put forth the farming effort to get it.

and I'm actually planning on getting rod of the sun king for my offhand.

Just not sure how often the mace procs and if it's often enough to make it worth my while to farm up the mats.
It's not replaceable in current end game.
#1460SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Brum
Ashtongue trinket

Info taken down, based on skewed data

Last edited by Brum : 10/08/07 at 10:08 PM. Reason: Inaccurate data
#1461SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Has anyone got to exalted with The Scale of the Sands yet?

I was thinking that maybe the people who have been clearing Hyjal for a few weeks more than I have might already, the reason I ask is.

Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft

Just wondering what sort of proc rate is on this ring, I think im still about 8 full clears from getting it, due to slackness in hyjal over the last few weeks.
#1462SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lolwhat?
My Gear and Stats, Better then average or no?

Hey everyone, im new here to EJ forums but I've been browsing them for a few weeks now. My guild isn't very progressed(Only downed Mag a few days ago >.<) so I only have limited resources, but here is my gear / stats:

Cowl of Defiance - 34 AP / 16 HR Enchant

Necklace of Trophies

Cyclone Shoulderpads - +8 Str / +4 Str +4 Crit gems - 26 AP Enchant

Scaled Breastplate of Carnage - +6 Stats Enchant (This is until I can grab the leather one or t4 if I get lucky)

Stalker's War Bands - 24 AP Enchant (Getting the Enchant changed to 12 Str soon)

Gloves of Centering - +4 Str +6 Stam / +20 AP Gems - 15 Str Enchant

Archery Belt of the Broken

Skulker's Greaves - +8 Str x2 / +4 Str +4 Crit Gems - Soon to have 50 AP / 12 Crit Leg enchant

Veteren's Linked Sabatons - Boar's Speed Enchant

Kaylaan's Signet

Band of Ursol

Core of Ar'kelos

Hourglass of the Unraveler

The Decapitator - 20 Str (Im getting mongoose when I can get back on WoW, I also intend on replacing this with Dragonstrike when I get my blacksmithing up, hopefully within the next few weeks.

Runic Hammer - 20 Str (Until I get my Merc Gladiator Axe in 2 weeks, Axe will have mongoose on it)

With that gear my AP / Crit / HR is around 1500+ / 24 or 25 / 125 HR

Im not on a computer able to run WoW atm so I couldn't tell you my exact stats but they are somewhere around there spec'd enhancement. I just wanted some of your guys input on how good or bad my stats are before I actually do respec.

Thanks in advance to all that do respond, I do intend on checking back here later on in the day.

EDIT: I could also swap my Violet Ring of the Grand Restorer for of the Master Assassin gaining some hit that I don't need from what I've seen and a few AP, while losing some crit.
#1463SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Has anyone got to exalted with The Scale of the Sands yet?

I was thinking that maybe the people who have been clearing Hyjal for a few weeks more than I have might already, the reason I ask is.

Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft

Just wondering what sort of proc rate is on this ring, I think im still about 8 full clears from getting it, due to slackness in hyjal over the last few weeks.
Interesting ring. It seems that more and more they've settled on using procs as a way to differentiate PvE from PvP gear. That way they can boost the stats on PvE without having it effect the way PvP plays out, due to usually having to spend extended amounts of time in an attack cycle to get all your procs up.

I'd imagine the proc is enough to make it worthwhile, as shamans usually make 1 PPM items (Crusader) proc at 2, and going off of dual wield, probably almost 4. Which would point at about a 50% uptime, as there's very few things less then 1 PPM.
#1464SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette
Look at the pretty line I get when I look at AP in steps of 400, against larger steps of the increased hit and crit rate
Out of the 36 datapoints, we had:
Mean: 0.23 Dps/AP
StDev: 0.02 (9% of the mean)
This is dps/AP not (Dps/HIT)/(Dps/AP) wich is local AEP value.
Dividing something with a trend by something with another trend will yield you interesting result

Originally Posted by Disquette
It looks like we have a really great model for AP
Good, but how it is making static AEP good? This model can be used to calculate AEP values at different stat combos and that result should be evaluated. Furthermore, this graph shows (which is logical) that the more AP one has, the more important hit becomes, not static ratio hr= 1.3 ap. In other words, at every given AP value the worth of adding Hit instead of further adding AP is different.

Originally Posted by Disquette
Furthermore, since 30% is being accepted as the "close enough" barometer for values by Yo!, I'll use that to test the 36 datapoints I have. Exactly 0 of them fall outside 30% of the mean, so I guess I have a perfect data set.
Again - you are referring to the wrong data (dps/ap). This is not AEP.
30% is too much by my sense, I used it specially to show how many points are way off, not just off. Even 90% confidence is bad because it becomes (1 - 0.1^(attributes)) if used as an input of several weights, by for one by one comparisons 10% is ok with me.... almost

Originally Posted by Disquette
It even works out like we'd expect, with increasing returns on AP as our hit and crit rate increase (shown by the upward trend in the graph).
Exactly - which proves that static AEP value can not be used.

Originally Posted by Disquette
Now, back to the big_test.xls
My biggest mistake, probably, was making the steps too small. If you use larger steps, you get nicer numbers to look at. They make pretty graphs like the one above. It has so much variation between runs (that's how shaman work), that sometimes you get flukey things. When you were going through the result data, did you really think that increasing hit rating should decrease dps?
There is nothing wrong in taking small steps - you can always smooth them later. There were of course, some numbers that were negative, that should not happen at all. They occurred when AP was so small that increase of it by some percentage was providing not enough increase to dps to overcome random nature of the test. It did not happen at big numbers of AP and AP increase always resulted in dps increase (so if you are nude get big bad weapon first dont worry about gear with hit or crit). From the look at histogram you could see that there were about dozen of such negative points out of 600+.

Originally Posted by Disquette
Here's an example. I took three of the AP levels (I chose 900, 1700, 2500, because they're evenly spaced and are WAY out of each other's range, so they should satisfy your complaint about gear levels resulting diff APE ratings). I then eliminated half of the hit rating steps (increasing them by 100 instead of 50). This should give me a better picture, and again, should address your notion that APE are not valid across gear ranges.
Smoothing (increasing steps) is ok but too some extant, in order to calculate local AEP small steps are needed. Too much soothing resulted in creating static AEP that is evil.
Originally Posted by Disquette

Now let's look at the pretty picture:
No, it's not nearly as nice as the AP graph, but it's still pretty consistent. Much more than the 70% variability you were discussing. In this case, the average dps/hitrating = .275. The stdev = 0.084 (for a stdev 31% of the mean). This time, using your "30% variation is ok" concept, 71% of data points fall into the acceptable range. If I look across all gear levels, and say that each hit rating is worth just a little bit more than one AP, I'd be pretty accurate, based on the two charts I have posted above, which cover almost the entire range of gearing choices.
Again, you are referring to the wrong data. AEP is NOT dps increse/per hit increase. It is "AP equivalence" and there is no AP at dps increse/per hit increase formula. You should use (dps increase from increasing hit/ by what number hit was incresed)/(dps increase from increasing AP/by what number AP was increased)

Originally Posted by Disquette

Statistics can say what ever you want them to, pretty much. I could probably argue on Yo!'s side and say that all this theorycraft in here is utter garbage, at best meaningless to the shaman community, and at worst ill-advising people. I just need to find the right data that makes graphs that appear horrendous or beautiful.
That's why I'm glad that the theorycraft has been born out in actual game scenarios, with multiple people of varied gear-levels saying "i changed out my hit gems for AP or crit gems, started focusing more on crit and AP, and my dps went up significantly".
I don't know how shaman dps works in many instances. There's all sorts of things that are hard to account for. But just like looking for a coin at night, the first places you check is where it's already light, and you hope you find it there.
I am not saying theorycrafting is garbage in any way. I addressed very specific question "usefulness of static AEP values for gear choice" and showed that it is so limited that should be avoided because AEP is not static by it's nature - it is different for every possible combo.
#1465SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3everwatch
I may have missed this somewhere... I just finished catching up on all of the posts, due to the recent change to the WF totem.

While raiding my typical group consists of 3 rogues and a feral druid (sometimes subbing a Rogue for a Hunter). Very recent developments actually allowed for 3 rogues and a dps war, but that is infrequent at best.

With these recent chanegs to the dps a Rogue and a Warrior recieves, what is better now? I saw one model earlier showing a Rogue with Poisons + GoA being very very close to a WF combo. And it seems that warriors gain nowhere near the benefit they once did. Which if you then add in my extra dps and the extra gained by a hunter or a druid...it may very well be possible it is no longer the correct answer to place a WF totem down.

I understand the basic mentailty to not using a WF totem is, "OMFG the world is ending!!!" but I'd like to be able to look past that and explain to my my GM and my melee dps'ers why I'm changing my totems up. And from some things I'm seeing, changing them up is the right way to go now. In the most recently posted model/example in this thread, it seems that if you have 2 class who do benefit from GoA, but cannot from WF, that GoA is now the superior totem in an Enhancement Shaman's party.
WF Totem or GoA? When to use in what combos?

1) 2 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham
2) 3 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham (this happens in my guild the most often)
3) 3 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Sham
4) 2 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Hunter, 1 Sham (this is the 2nd most common makeup in our raids)

Thanks!
#1466SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
The real answer would be for them to make flametongue totem's damage for the party scale in a reasonable way with the shaman's spell damage in conjunction with the upcoming changes to enhancement spell damage.

There would be a really nice synergy of another group buff that scales with the Shaman's gear there. Then you could do GoA+Flametongue totem and hopefully have comparable damage to windfury.

But then again, I've learned to stay away from "I wish" theorycraft because it's too painfull.

It would be nice if they provided an alternative outside of all windfury all the time for melee though.
#1467SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo! can you please give us an example of some items that you think are being valued wrong across the board for all shaman? I'm just not understanding this - to me its like your saying that the Liar's Tongue gloves off Mag are only good if you're sitting at certain values of hit/crit/ap, and otherwise you should take item X - even though item X might be worse later on?

Maybe you just need to simplify what you're saying a bit.
#1468SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
I feel like I understand the gist of Yo!'s argument:
1) AP equivalencies are not 100% accurate.
2) Doing two simulations is theoretically a more accurate way to compare items.
3) Therefore, AP equivalencies should not ever be used.

I don't think he's getting disagreement on points #1 and #2. But point #3 is where he's getting disagreement from. Frankly, even though we are min-maxers, simulations still exhibit errors on individual runs. In fact, looking at the info Yo! referenced above, 2% (12/600) sims showed a decrease in DPS when increasing AP. Now, I'm far from an expert on statistics, but this would cause me to believe that there is a significant standard deviation on DPS when comparing multiple simulations at a single AP value. For comparison, Disquette's info showed a standard deviation of 9% for the DPS-value of AP. Unless we know that the comparison of any two sims will have a standard deviation of less than 9%, #3 is not supported; indeed, even if the standard deviation of those sims is far less than 9%, say 1%, AP equivalencies still are valuable for the sole fact that they make it very easy to compare two items.

And finally, Malan and I have requested an example of a case where an item is an "upgrade" by AP-equivalency metrics but a "downgrade" by either simulated or in-game testing. Such an example has not yet been produced, so until it is, I will continue to support AP equivalency evaluation.
#1469SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by everwatch
1) 2 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham
2) 3 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham (this happens in my guild the most often)
3) 3 Rogue, 1 Fury War, 1 Sham
4) 2 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Hunter, 1 Sham (this is the 2nd most common makeup in our raids)
I feel comfortable giving these answers:
1) WF
2) Questionable, needs math and/or further testing to back up an answer
3) WF
4) GoA
#1470SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob
4) GoA
Assuming dagger rogues I'm guessing.


Everwatch, you may want to look into totem twisting if your group is that much into goa. All in all the WF nerf cries have been a little exaggerated. I see two combat fist/sword rogues in your guild, so for them WF would certainly still be worth it.

Last edited by Igniter : 08/16/07 at 7:40 PM.
#1471SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malacort
according to the rogues I normally group with, poisonx2 and GoA out damages WF now.
#1472SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Well, I was actually assuming Combat Swords...
Rogue = 1% crit/40 AGI, 1 AP/AGI -> 2.3% crit, 92 AP, can apply Instant Poison. Probably less than the benefit of WF. But:

Hunter = 1% crit/25 AGI, 1 AP/AGI -> 2.3% crit, 92 AP, ~2% more Kill Commands and Feral Inspiration or Expose Weakness applications (unknown to me: crit/AGI and AP/AGI for pet; I here assume it scales consistently with the Hunter's)
Cat = 1% crit/25 AGI, 1 AP/AGI -> 3.68% crit, 92 AP
Shaman = 1% crit/25 AGI, 0 AP/AGI -> 3.68% crit, increased Flurry uptime by roughly 3.68% * 25% Flurry downtime = ~1% increased damage? (WF and white should both scale with Flurry uptime.)

If hunter DPS = 1x rogue DPS, cat DPS = 0.75x rogue DPS, and shaman DPS = 0.75x rogue DPS, then we have 2.3% + 2.76% + 2.76% = 7.82% rogue DPS (crit contributions) + some constant DPS from aforementioned AP contributions + some intangible DPS from increased Kill Commands and Ferocious Inspiration or Expose Weakness applications... if we estimate this as 2.18% (yes, chosen for convenience, but on the surface seems reasonable supposing the power of FI and EW) then Rogue DPS with Windfury must be at least 5% greater than Rogue DPS with GoA and Instant Poison.

Any testing with the new WF to show that still holds true? From the anecdotes I have seen on these boards, GoA/IP is nearly a wash with WF now for rogues. The other thread is mostly focusing on the fact that it's a huge nerf to 2H 33/28, and a reasonable nerf to DW... which are true but not useful for this particular investigation.

Last edited by Rob : 08/16/07 at 8:25 PM. Reason: forgot to include our increased Flurry uptime
#1473SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Btw speaking of AEP, can someone verify that I'm not crazy, lootzor keeps saying a pair of blue crafted gloves are some of the best available. Agree/Disagree? [Fel Leather Gloves]
#1474SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
Yo! can you please give us an example of some items that you think are being valued wrong across the board for all shaman? I'm just not understanding this - to me its like your saying that the Liar's Tongue gloves off Mag are only good if you're sitting at certain values of hit/crit/ap, and otherwise you should take item X - even though item X might be worse later on?

Maybe you just need to simplify what you're saying a bit.
Sure. Lets look at a guy with 5 empty gem slots, 2400 AP, 12% + hit, 18% crit.
Such guy performed 776 DPS that was recorded in big_test.xls
He is given an option to choose between 2 gems: +20 AP and +10 Hit rating assuming that color bonus does not matter for him (+1mana/5 sec). "Average AEP" says that 5*20 AP is much more favorable: 100 points against 70 points assigned to 5*10 hit rating. However, in a big_test.xls this guy with 2400+100 AP, 12% hit, 18% crit scored 790 DPS (3% increase), while the same guy with 2400 AP, 12% hit + 50 hit rating, 18% crit scored 813 DPS (4,7% increase). So, by choosing what average AEP suggested, he lost 1,7% of his initial total dps on gems alone.

So, yes, "the Liar's Tongue gloves off Mag are only good if you're sitting at certain values of hit/crit/ap, and otherwise you should take item X - even though item X might be worse later on".
#1475SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
@ Malan:
Seems reasonable because those gloves don't have any item budget invested in STA or INT so they have a comparatively large pool of points for AP, Crit, and Hit; additionally, the stat allocation is spread out between these three statistics and a red and yellow socket, so they aren't penalized as much by the rule that raises statvalues to the power of 1.5. (Item Values on WoWWiki for the uninitiated.)

@ Yo!:
OK, but what's the margin of error for each of those tests? Maybe the one at 2500 AP, 12% hit was under by 5% while the one at 2400 AP, 14% hit was over by 5%. Then the 20 AP gems would still be better. Focusing on the error in AEP while ignoring the error in simulations strikes me as odd.

I will also note that your example considered a person with high AP (2400) and very low hit rating (12% = only 47 hit rating), which is far from what the majority of shamans operate at. Does resocketing to hit gems still make sense at 100 hit rating? 125 hit rating? 150 hit rating? These are values more commensurate with a value of 2400 AP (even raid buffed -- and remember that you should not include UR when figuring how much base AP is needed to obtain 2400 raid AP since UR was modeled as a proc in Disquette's sims).

Last edited by Rob : 08/16/07 at 8:33 PM. Reason: point out how far situation is from typical
#1476SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malacort
according to the rogues I normally group with, poisonx2 and GoA out damages WF now.
Look at this positive way - it frees 2 talent points and provides AGI for you to boost your DPS
#1477SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
#1478SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
OK, but what's the margin of error for each of those tests? Maybe the one at 2500 AP, 12% hit was under by 5% while the one at 2400 AP, 14% hit was over by 5%. Then the 20 AP gems would still be better. Focusing on the error in AEP while ignoring the error in simulations strikes me as odd.
That is why I made a post on page 58 running through 600+ data points with main conclusion being " there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote).

Does resocketing to hit gems still make sense at 100 hit rating? 125 hit rating? 150 hit rating?
No. It is not constant, otherwise new static AEP value would be born.
" there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote 2).

Yah but Yo! that makes very little sense - if an item is an upgrade it should be an upgrade regardless of the rest of your kit. How can something be good now, but after 2 upgrades to other slots, be worse off?
2 minor upgrades will be not enough for the guy in the example in order to change AEP from 5.5 (that is what local AEP is for him) to 1.3. He happened to be way off from stat combo that values hit rating as 1.4 AP, namely he has too much AP and not enough Crit/Hit.
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that.

Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 9:17 PM.
#1479SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Of course it does, Malan.

[Cataclysm Gauntlets]
77 AP
1.056 % Crit
1.52 % Hit
(374 HP + 396 Mana and ~ 0.3% Spellcrit)

[Fel Leather Gloves]
62 AP
1.08 % Crit
1.07 % Hit

[Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation]
77 AP
1.52 % Crit
0 % Hit

and compared to eg [Cyclone Gauntlets] (those aren't even on the list!)
59 AP
0.924 Crit
1.20 % Hit
(286 HP + 396 Mana + ~ 0.3% Spellcrit and 5mp5)

Conclusion: There is no huge range between all of them (beside set boni and a bigger mana- and healthpool).

To the "Yo! Discussion",
You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime.
I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit.

Malacort
What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up.
#1480SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Myul
To the "Yo! Discussion",
You are using 12% hit instead of 22%, that's a large difference. It's around hitting only 8 of 9 out of 10 attacks and should result in heavily lower ur/flurry uptime.
I still believe, that 22% hit is a little too highly set for a good aep comparison, it's to close to the hitcap (that's around 25.5 to 27.5 if i remember correctly) while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit.
Sure, that is why I got expected different AEP value from what would be with more hit.
And that is exactly why "average AEP" provided poor test guy with wrong suggestion for choosing gem. And that is why it should not be used by him. And you feel right that it is not worth reaching hit cap while you can "easily" obtain 1000 more ap and/or 10% more crit because local AEP (true AEP for the specific stat combo) will favor AP and Crit much more than "average AEP". So, following what average AEP suggests is evil. I said it before, did not I?
#1481SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo!
That is why I made a post on page 58 running through 600+ data points with main conclusion being " there is a solid 54.5% chance that actual AEP is different from the suggested by more than 30%" (soory for self-quote).



2 minor upgrades will be not enough for the guy in the example in order to change AEP from 5.5 (that is what local AEP is for him) to 1.3. He happened to be way off from stat combo that values hit rating as 1.4 AP, namely he has too much AP and not enough Crit/Hit.
It does not mean that he has to change his equipment towards the combo where there is 1.4 ratio to improve his DPS, however boosting his DPS by choosing +hit instead of +ap will drift his local AEP from 5.5 towards 1.4 and at some point beyond that.

Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have (still with a big downfall at the end). Hope this helps.
This and Yo!'s last post are things I agree with. I think of it as building a square, in many respcts. If your objective is to creat the maximum area, and your choices are to lengthen side x or side y, generally you're going to increase the area more by increasing which ever one is already shorter.

Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear.

My problem with Yo!'s initial posts were that they made it seem like you got nothing out of assigning the average AEP values. Personally, I agree that AEP changes as you gear up differently. However, my original reason for writing the sim and finding results was to confirm that hit was the be all and end all of enhance shaman statistics - it was the conventional wisdom, but I hadn't seen it proved anywhere, so I wanted to see why. It was quite the shock to find it so underwhelming at certain gear levels.

I still think that it has valid uses - and for a starting shaman with average gear, it gives you a direction to aim for. Once you get to the boundary cases where you've used it to the point that you have 0 hit rating and 1800 AEP, I think it's certainly very worthwhile to re run the sims (or just comprehend it internally) to the point where you have to realize that you're going to get much more of a return on hit than you initially did.

back to the rectangle. Here's how I see shaman decision making 4 months ago based on the gear available then: It's H wide by AP tall.

When H and AP = 10, the area is 100.

It turns out that for $5, you can increase H by 2 or AP by 5. At that point in the general shaman world, people were choosing to increase H by 2 units instead of AP by 5.

Fast forward to the current day, when that rectangle is 8H wide by 20AP tall, for an area of 160 square units.

Now for the same $5, increasing AP to 25 gives you an area of 200. If you were to increase the H dimension by 2, however, you'd have a total area of 200 also - they've normalized.

AEP is good for shaman over a very wide variety of gear. However, when you get to the extremes that AEP will lead you, you will indeed start making sub-optimal gear choices. This is confounded more by the fact that the higher AP goes with raid buffs (people are now raiding with 3k+ AP often with buffs) that hit is going to become more and more important (as will crit, for that matter).

I don't disagree with Yo's statements taken by themselves. What I have disagreed with is that for the vast majority of shaman, the current AEP ratings would misguide them. Gear up through kara, when using AEP, won't let you neglect hit, so shaman have been ok. Accordingly, when I ran the sims, note that AP stopped at around 2500 and crit around 31%. Now that times have changed, and we can see where gear is, a new version should probably be done (esp with haste gear, which was unforseen by me, which would more strongly value +hit). It's impossible to use a constant set of values that is good for everyone, but I think that the ones that have been used to date have helped a lot of shaman from sinking into a trap of "Max +hit first, and then worry about your other stats".

As I've said repeatedly, if tornhoof can get a closed form of parameterized attributes working, that would be my preferred solution.

Yo! - I hope you realize that if I've sounded harsh, it's not because I disagree with the notions you have set forth. I just don't want people thinking that as they grow from dungeons to heroics to SSC/TK, they have been making bad choices. I think the AEP are ok up through that level. Now that we are beyond that, there probably does need to be a rejiggering of values (and preferably in a parameterized way).
#1482SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Originally Posted by Malan
Btw speaking of AEP, can someone verify that I'm not crazy, lootzor keeps saying a pair of blue crafted gloves are some of the best available. Agree/Disagree? [Fel Leather Gloves]
Agree, since they are pure damage. You're giving up a lot of stamina and armor (and int, but...) using these though, as Myul pointed out. "My" rogues still use these for their damage sets and while I don't want to compare shamans to rogues, the stats both classes long for are basically the same.
#1483SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malacort
Originally Posted by Myul
Malacort
What weapons are your rogues wielding? With S2/T3+ weapons, doesn't matter if they are sword/mace/dagger your rogues should get better results from Wf with a combat specc. Only a multilate rogue could really prefer grace of air over windfury for reaching ~ 45-50% crit raidbuffed with the ashtongue trinket buff (that result in a lot more cp from seal fate and ruthlessness/relentless strikes talents) and deadly poison allways up.
they do use s2/t3+; we have 1 mace spec rogue using bt weapons, 2 sword rogues with s2/hyjal/bt weapons. They were telling me to use goa over wf since their poisons did more dmg than wf was giving them.
#1484SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo!
No. It is not constant, otherwise new static AEP value would be born.
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
Look at this another way - how valuable additional +hit rating is when person reaches hit cap? Is it 1.4 ap? Or is it more like 0.0? And it is not changing suddenly like 1.4, 1.4, 1.4 1.4 oops 0. It is drifting towards 0 the more + hit rating you have given AP remains the same (still with a big downfall at the end).
I think most of us understand and concede this point, but it doesn't follow that AEP is therefore not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans -- or even the majority of enhancement shamans with a min-max raiding mindset who read this thread.

I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.)
#1485SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette
This and Yo!'s last post are things I agree with. I think of it as building a square, in many respcts. If your objective is to creat the maximum area, and your choices are to lengthen side x or side y, generally you're going to increase the area more by increasing which ever one is already shorter.

Now, we're not dealing with a square, but the attributes (hit/crit/haste/ap) can be seen analagously to one for the purposes of qualitative but not quantitative comparison. If you're really low on hit compared to the other dimension, you're going to get more bang for the buck increasing hit. This is a lot like what stigmata said in a recent post about his gear.
Disquette - it is a honor to talk the same theorycrafting language with you
Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Squre example was something that I wanted to post next!
Total damage = (1 + haste%) * (raw damage from weapon + damage from AP*upkeeptimeofunleashedrage(crit)) * (total chance to land an attack including Crit with x2 weight) * 7/5 * upkeeptimeoffurry(crit) * etc.. is a greatly simplified analytical model of Shaman's damage. Saddly, it can not be used instead of step-by-step simulations because the mathematical expectance Mf(x,y) is different from f(Mx,My).
But it is a good illustration that damage can be viewed as multidimensional cube or square if only 2 arguments are being compared.
So lets do it now

Lets assume Damage =f(Ap,Hit)= Ap*Hit*K(unknown static coefficient K that absorbs all other attributes).
If ap = 100, hit = 1 damage will be 100, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 100, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 1. Guess what - these are called derivatives, and the pair of these derivatives forms gradient (100, 1), wich is also known as AEP weights, 1 hit is worth 100 points and 1 ap is worth 1 point
If ap = 50, hit = 50 damage will be 2500, 1 point of additional hit will increase total damage by 50, 1 point of additional ap will increase total damage by 50. Weights are: 1 hit is worth 50 points and 1 ap is worth 50 points which equals to 1:1.
If one starts nude with 1 hit and 0 ap and has a budget of 100 Drgagon kill points that he can spent somehow 1 DKP per one stat point - he will achieve max damage output by spanding 49 points towards Hit, 50 points towards AP and the remaining point towards any stat. This will result in 2500 damage. If, for some reason this person thinks that AP is always better he will spent all 100 points on AP scoring 100 damage.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:03 PM.
#1486SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kaubel
Originally Posted by Lolwhat?
<lots of stats and crap>
Dude, just edit your profile and stick in an armory link.

Originally Posted by Yo!
!!!QUOTE SPLITTING!!!
This is dumb. Just say what you have to say without turning your post into a mountain of words.
#1487SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob
Sure. But you neglect to address the thrust of my argument: static AEP values are useful at "reasonable" gear combinations. Sure, if you just have 2800 AP and 0 hit rating, that won't be as good as 2600 AP and 100 hit rating even though the AEP values say otherwise. But there's no set of gear which would allow you to obtain 2800 AP and 0 hit. So why pretend that there is ever going to be a shaman running around with 2400 AP and 47 hit when trying to invalidate the use of AEP figures?
What is "reasonable" gear combinations for you? Please take a look at big_test.xls - all of the combos recorded there were taken in-game. There are no 2800 AP 0 hit combos in there. AP runs from 800 to 2500 in 100 ap steps, hit changes from 12% to 25% in 50 hit rating steps, crit changes from 18% to 31.5%


... it doesn't follow that AEP is therefore not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans -- or even the majority of enhancement shamans with a min-max raiding mindset who read this thread.

I will finally end by noting that I still haven't seen any number for the standard deviation of simulated tests at a given AP/crit/hit number -- unless it's lower than 9%, AEP is actually a better measure (given that the standard deviation of AP across all of Disquette's tests was 9%.)
If you will accept combos recorded in big_test.xls as "reasonable" than AEP is not useful for the vast majority of enhancement shamans that have such combos in game... Average AEP may provide worst suggestions to the most non-average geared players such as Elitist Jerks raiding BT . Especially with availability of +haste items. It will be actually possible to count exactly how many shamans will not benefit from "average" AEP if projects such as Armory Musings... will provide database for free download.
Each test at a given AP/crit/hit number was run for 1 hour, there were no repeated tests for the same AP/crit/hit combo. Disquette knows more about it as he is the one responsible for that test

Last edited by Yo! : 08/16/07 at 10:38 PM.
#1488SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
I allmost understand your cube/square example, but shouldn't you try to fit it to our certain problem?
By only comparing hit and ap, there is some point (0% hit), when ap won't benefit you something, to.
But we are not talking about the minimum stats, we are talking about some much more common stats. The extremes might happen once in a blue moon and are a mathematical phenomenon, but aren't important in this case.

No person will spend all his dkp to gain 100 other ap, the margin is so much smaller..
He maybe lose 1-2% hit or crit of 15-30%, but shouldn't drop under some minimal stats.
Maybe we should describe them in the beginning post, to.

Every shaman will need x% hit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons.
Every shaman will need y% crit to keep up ur & flurry with two z speed weapons.

Using x=15%, y=25% and z=2.6 while proofing this with any of the simulators should be enough.
Of course, the set aep might not be true for some data examples somewhere far away from this, like x=5%, y=50% and z=4.0 ..

edit: to your last post, you are saying the average aep aren't right because the people don't have the same average stats after farming karazhan? Of course, there will be differences. But i really doubt, for adding 2% crit and 100 ap from better gear your stats would change to something odd like

Haste Rating = 3.7
Strength = -4
Crit Rating = 7
Agility = 5
Hit Rating = 3
Attack Power = 24

All what happen is, that it might change to something like

Haste Rating = 2.3
Strength = 2.1
Crit Rating = 1.9
Agility = 1.7
Hit Rating = 1.6
Attack Power = 1.05

---

Lootzor could need some updates, i think. There's no season 2 gear listed except the shoulders and some items have still not updated their socket boni.
Because of the high value of some leather helmet's (ignoring the far better agi/critdmg meta gem) and the fel leather gloves, i started valueing stamina a little bit, too.
You won't want to play with raidbuffed 8.000 hp at trash or other bosses than ebonroc, so it's not that important.. ->

lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

(assuming bok and using the exactly numbers for hit & agi, no rounding issues).

You will notice, that allmost all good items still stay on top of the list, so it won't matter with your choices for t4+ gear.
#1489SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lolwhat?
Originally Posted by Kaubel
Dude, just edit your profile and stick in an armory link.
Like I said, I wasn't on a comp that could play wow and im not spec'd enhance atm so posting my armory wouldn't have done anything but linked my resto gear. I'll log out in my enhance gear when I log tonight though.
#1490SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
Hi guys, first of all i'd like to say thanks for the glut of helpful information here. I switched to enhancement about 2 weeks ago and am currently trying to gear up to be useful in raids, your compilation has helped immensely.

On to my question and i hope it hasn't already been asked (i've read as much as humanly possible, but didn't spot this specifically anywhere.

I'm currently using [Reflex Blades] Main hand, and am struggling to find anything offhand thats slower. My current off hand isn't showing on the armory, but its a 2.60 green axe (65.6dps if i remember right) and i'll be picking up the High Warlord axe this weekend, but even that is only 2.60.

Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly.

How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority?
#1491SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
I actually don't understand the whole AEP discussion at all, we have several more or less valid models of shaman enh dps. Each and every model has a certain weighting towards one or more stats, my model is more fond of hitrating and hasterating than of critrating.

My current model rates the attributes at a 2.2k AP,22% hit, 25% crit gear for:
1CR = 1.18HR
1CR = 1.045Str (incl. BoK)
1CR = 0.794 HasteRating

Actually I don't know why anyone should care about AEP values for unbuffed non raid envionments, there is no reason to use AEP if you never have BoM, BoK, Battleshout and Elixir/Flask.

Now to the mathematical finer points of the whole discussion.
your attributes/stats are not linearly independent, +crit increases +ap to a certain degree and +haste (if you take flurry as a haste rating (which is a valid assumption)) etc, the only
stat which is practically independent of everything else is AP. Other than that I do agree that the calculated AEP values are only valid for a fairly small window.

To me it is kinda obvious that it is not possible to compare two individual items on your equipment based on AEP, it has to be obvious for me, otherwise writing my program would have been lost time
#1492SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Blackmoon
Given the problems with fast OH, do i want to just ditch reflex blades altogether and grab another high warlord axe? its .10 speed diff but from what i'm reading it'll still gimp me badly.

How do the strike mechanics work for weapons with matching speeds? is having 2 2.60 speed weapons a problem for windfury or does the main hand weapon always take priority?
Keep your MH, a 2.6 OH is fine. You'll be able to pick up a 2.6 MH in KZ. With matching speed weapons the MH should swing first but there's some situations where it can get out of sync, but neither hand has a 'priority' for procs.
#1493SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
I assume you are referring to [Fool's Bane], which i must admit i'd not seen before
What i meant by priority was swing order from the start of an attack, rather than procs, as in both weapons don't strike simultaneously even if the speed is the same. If this is the case then MH would have the first chance to proc windfury, even though both are the same speed.

I assume? In either case thanks for your advice, i look forward to forcing my guild to fight Terestian (oh they are going to love that...).
#1494SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Blackmoon, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] or [The Decapitator] are good weapons, too. So if your guild doesn't like Illhoof, go for one of them.

Regarding weapon swing order: When you start combat in melee range, the mainhand will always strike first.
#1495SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Blackmoon
Yeah i checked out the paw, and decided to go for the slower hitters if i could. Of course if it drops i can always adapt Plus it will make it easier to find a off hand thats slower...
hmm...
methinks you might have thrown a monkey in my carefully balanced plan.
#1496SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krom[Fenris]
# Crypt Fiends around Azeroth and at Hyjal Summit are now more totem friendly.
#1497SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
I'm thinking of rolling a Shaman but I'd like a little bit different gameplay from my Rogue so I'm wondering if 2-handers are viable for an Enh Shaman and what the spec might look like? I've tried searching a couple of times but never found anything, all the talk is about dual wielding and comments would be much appreciated.
#1498SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Disquette, Yo! et al - perhaps what we need are 3 (or more) sets of AEP that establish some baselines. ie, while leveling 1-70 with pretty minimal AP/Hit/Crit available, here's the AEP you need. For 70 normal/heroic/KZ instances, use these other values. Once you hit XYZ values of stats, roughly SSC/TK time frame, use these. After you've geared in SSC/TK and you're at the extreme top end of stats, now use these other AEP for Black Temple and Hyjal.

@Jelu - 2H is relegated to PvP for the most part, and even in PvP it may not be the clear winner anymore. DW is superior for PvE purposes. The days of shaman swinging big huge 2H's is pretty much over. It varies enough from a rogue either way.
#1499SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Severjanin
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
#1500SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Severjanin
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
The use on the decapitator is fucking awesome and I wish we had a talent to throw our weapons. I use it on transitions and it was pretty fun for the 1 week I was using it in pvp.
#1501SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Originally Posted by Severjanin
This is my first post so hi everyone.

@Blackmoon: I just started again in July and I've been 70 for about a month now gearing up so i feel I'm on the same level as you and my little advice is to get the level 60 High Warlord 2.9 speed weapon as it's still serving me since around lvl 64 .
Just yesterday I managed 735dps according to wws so it is indeed a more than viable weapon and above all very easy to get. I think it would out-damage the level 70 version assuming you get Battleshout in the raid.
It's so good I don't feel I'm working towards an upgrade in Runic Hammer but rather I'm working just to test if it's better.

On the Karazhan weapons, get what drops first. I was lucky enough to get the Paw almost as soon as I dinged 70 and it helped alot for farming and grinding to gear up (skill up leatherworking). To be honest, I don't really find much difference between the Paw and the Decapitator.
735 dps on a servant? On hogger? On what time length, with what buff?
Today i managed to deal 5000 dps according to wws while slaying two rabbits.. you got it?

I my opinion it's not worth getting the gm weapons since you will have to spend 15.300 honor each. The time wasted in bgs you can easily spend on leveling to 70, leveling professions or running instances for reputation, since the blue heroic drops listed on page 1 are all equal or slightly better then those purple 59 dps toys.
Even with an instant queue you will have to spend 3 full days of playing to get them, and with no instant join option it will be even more difficult.
#1502SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LemmingRus
Stupid questions.. as things have changed

I leveled as Enhancement.. but back then 2 forms of WF would stack.

I switched to Elemental and have 4/5 T5 and 3/3 Netherstrike, which left nothing to really upgrade as we are having trouble with Kael atm. (LW obviously)

So, I decided to pop back to my Enhancement gear I have been collecting (2 days ago, ie the lack of rare gems/enchants) and would like to ask a few questions:

1). I have been using the link to lootzer to upgrade my gear as needed. Should I only use that after I have more hit? I checked my WWS and had a horrid 22.5% miss rate on Kael. I think my hit was 34 and was in elemental (so, no +3% from resto). Obviously I will change that, but what hit rate should I go for? I see some saying 100, 150, and other saying max.
I am hoping to finish the Ebon Tunic for the +20 hit set bonus and exchange my gems with matching colors.

2). As both my weapons are 2.6, should I be placing WF on both? I was running WF/FT.

3). What can I do to drop lower my threat more? Was planning on the threat red from cloak and was debating the gloves. (sure the Vash trinket would be great, but it needs to drop already)

Thanks for reading and helping if you ca
#1526SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sashiel
Weapon choices

Hi, first post here.

I've been trying to absorb all the advice regarding weapon choices, but I'm having some difficulty, so maybe someone can help me with my specific situation.

I just made a Drakefist Hammer for my Shaman, and I'm thinking about getting a Runic Hammer made for my OH. Is this a good idea since the Runic is faster than the Drakefist? Also, if I do use the Runic Hammer, is 2xMongoose worse than Mongoose/Crusader, since flurry+drakefist+2xMongoose will (I think) bring my Runic into the 1.5-1.41 speed valley?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
#1527SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3T.K.
I'm a draenei, so i'll basically stick with my Dragonstrike once i'm able to chose from that weapons. Might get one to test once the people interested in them get's their.

On a side note, i just quit my old guild and i'm applying to a new guild. This one is already on Vashj and killed Al'ar while my old guild just downed Morogrim and was wiping on Al'ar yet.

My real problem is that i'm basically on Karahzan gear, and as such, my stats and my life are lower than it should be to this level of raids. First raid i did with them, i died quite often because of too much damage and becauz my old guild kept pissing me off, flooding me, nocking me on instant messenger and even some people i trusted before kept disconnecting me while in the raid as they had my password.

I'm gonna be allowed a new test, but i'm really concerned how i could improve my survivability into Fathom-Lord, Al'ar and trash mobs into all this as such they see i cant withstand their raiding level? Buffed i get to 9.8-10k life if i get a imp, wich is not aways, while their rogues get around 11-12k life with their current gear and buffings.

This guild understand enhance and really think that a enhance pushs his weight on raids, contrary to my previous guild. I can't allow to lose this opportunity and as such, all hints would be very appreciated^^
#1528SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
You can actually find all your answers in the OP.
Unless you are able to kill Al'ar or have sick arena ratings, runic hammer will last you quite some time even though it's faster.
2xMongoose is the best choice if you can afford it, and about the valley, it seems that in-game testing is proving it wrong, atleast from what i gather in the OP.
#1529SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Wouldn't the new value of haste be 1.54? Only seems logical if it's a 33% nerf.
#1530SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
Originally Posted by Sharmania
.. regarding orc weapon skill ..
Research:Effects of Weapon Skill - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

It should be around
1.0% less chance to miss
0.5% less chance to be dodged
3.0% less chance to be parryed(Wich shouldn't happen with you being behind mob though)
0.5% chance to crit

That should be a net 2% increase in your damage while dual wielding axes, but i think guess, the mace is still scaling a little better.
But then again, another author claims
"Note that this creates a "sweet spot" when attacking a mob 3 levels above the player (including "skull" bosses). Equipping an item that grants 5 extra weapon skill will effectively increase the player's chance to hit by a full 2%. 4 weapon skill would only grant 0.8% to hit, while 6 skill would give 2.1%." (Source)
That's different from the table above...

Originally Posted by T.K.
.. lack of healthpoints ..
Without an armory link we can't give you detailed hints on improving your equipment, but there are some things you could look at:

a) Try revalue stamina in comparision to the other stats as you lack enough hp to substain the dps (lootzor)
b) some detailed advices based on your current reachable itempool
- getting veteran's gear should help a lot, eg. [Veteran's Pendant of Triumph] with an [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Veteran's Linked Bracers] with stamina enchant, [Veteran's Linked Girdle] and [Veteran's Linked Sabatons] with boar's speed. If you're wearing a kazzak (or other stamina lacking) ring, switch it for [Veteran's Band of Triumph] or [Band of the Exorcist]
- [Vengeance Wrap] is high dps, but lack stamina. Use on of the karazhan cloaks or the badges one.
- abuse some socketed items, eg. [Skulker's Greaves] and gem them with 3 [Solid Star of Elune] and a [Nethercleft Leg Armor] enchant.
- use stamina trinkets like [Commander's Badge], [Gnomish Poultryizer], [Argussian Compass], [Darkmoon Card: Madness], [Violet Badge] or [Spyglass of the Hidden Fleet].

You won't need the best dps gear on the trash and on heavy aoe bosses you will really want 10.000 hp buffed, skipping some damage gear can be necessary.

Consumeable advice: instead of using a flask get some [Elixir of Major Fortitude] + [Elixir of Major Agility] and eating [Talbuk Steak] instead of ap/str food should help, too.

Originally Posted by rava
Wouldn't the new value of haste be 1.54? Only seems logical if it's a 33% nerf.
Before: 10.518 haste rating = 1% haste
After: 15.7 haste rating = 1% haste
So it's acutally a 33% nerf.

Originally Posted by Sashiel
.. regarding weapon choice ..
Runic hammer is still the best offhand avaible for you until you can save enough arena points for getting the cleaver or pummeler.
Mongoose is the enchant you should be looking for, it's an remarkable positive difference to 20 strength or crusader.

Last edited by Myul : 08/18/07 at 3:18 PM. Reason: added some points
#1531SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Hi, back again with 1 more question... I just left my raiding guild for various reasons, and I'm now essentially unable to get into anything beyond Karazhan. Should I pick-up the Midnight Leggings until my guild progresses into Gruul's or keep the Blue Mail Leggings I've currently been wearing? :-\ I'm very uneasy about shifting to Leather, so I thought this would be a good place to gain info.
#1532SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Sharmania
How doese it have 70 passive haste rating?Where was the PPM calculated?
I was guessing in a way i thought would be conservative. Just landed in blasted lands, so i'll let you know in a bit.
#1533SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
When I build a scale using Pater's sim and my current stats with the change to haste it has dropped from 1.9 to 1.24. It basically makes any of the passive haste items next to worthless dropping most of them down to be inferior to SSC/TK items. I can only hope it's an honest mistake on their part otherwise haste will be regarded as worst of the melee dps stats by a large margin.

If the change is intended it's another prime example of a knee-jerk "balancing" done by people who really don't seem to understand the mechanics of their own game. I had been impressed that things like haste and -armor had slotted in so evenly with other stats I guess it was too good to be true though.
#1534SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Sharmania
I was under the impression this particular blue post had been shown to be incorrect.
#1535SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
Originally Posted by Tambard
.. itemisation questen ..
The only reachable upgrades to the leather leggings from slave pens are [Skulker's Greaves] (from karazhan) or the [Void Reaver Greaves] (the eye).

(i skipped kazzak and the craftable legs, because they have no stats)

For farming, leather isn't that good. But on raids, you could wear cloth if it has better stats, since there's no encounter where you will have to do some tanking.

Next time, you should use lootzor as mentioned in the start post to check out for gear upgrades.

Morelis
I think, haste rating will still have their benefits, but not that much for the shaman.

Warrior gain more rage, rogues more energy ticks and hunter could reach new breakpoints for their cycles, but since we have that odd 3s cd on wf and beside that maybe only dst - so not that much on hit=procc items, it's allready only an alternative, not superior.

Maybe that will change again with the 2.3 patch and a faster hitting flametongue on your offhand, but that's unimportant for now.

--

If i calculated it correclty, despite that nerf to haste rating, mongoose still the way to go!?

Last edited by Myul : 08/18/07 at 3:48 PM. Reason: woha so many posts in such a short time
#1536SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
About the BS mace, i found on wowhead someone who had tested it to be 1.4PPM, and it seems to be the only one who tryed this with proc watch.
Unless i'm wrong, and that's a distinct possiblity :P, the hammer would avrg 50Haste Rating.
So with the haste nerf, and takeing 1.6AEP value for haste, it would be worth 80AEP.
In comparsion, the stats on Syphon alone(not counting proc) would be 50AEP this ofcourse also haveing superior speed and dps

As for the weapon skill, i think it's hard to test it out so for now i'll take the blue's word on it;Either way, it is deffineatly worth it to wear axes over other weapons, specially since Glad axe is so easy to get.
#1537SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
Those values are determined for a a karazhan geared shaman and not a bt/mh raiding

3000 ap 35% crit 25% hit

beast with dst. I hardly doubt, that haste has such a low benefit for those stats.

Dragonstrike has a roughly 1.5 PPM*, that's (212+212/2)/4=80 haste rating on average.
Using 1hr=2.0 aep, it's worthy 160 aep.

* = was tested on this board, but can't find it for the moment with the search function, i'm sorry.

Imho, syphon is to slow for your mainhand (while not dual wielding it) and i would prefer [Rising Tide] slightly over it (for your offhand).

---

Regarding AEP, i was looking at the thread "Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - melee only?" and since it's unquestionable one of the better meta gems, shouldn't we value crit & agi higher?

[top]It makes your crits go from 200% to 209% crits, the bonus goes from 100% to 109%.
This makes crit 9% more useful than it is right now for damage, so if you had 1 crit rating
Raidbuffed scenario (including assumed haste changes from patch 2.2) for the 2200/25/22 setup.

Haste Rating = 1.69
Strength = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2.18
Agility = 2.12
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1

-> Lootzor

Last edited by Myul : 08/18/07 at 5:41 PM.
#1538SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Disquette
Ok, i hadn't seen testing of the drakefist / dragonmaw proc before, and I'd always taken for granted they were right.

I just did testing to confirm/deny the 1.4 or 1.5 proc rate.

I used a blasted lands mob and tested for 1998 seconds, stormstike ever time it was up, windfury on both weapons. I did not have any other haste effects (procs, on use), and I have no passive haste gear.

I then paired up each "You gain haste" and "Haste fades from you" line, subtracting the first from the second (because you can rehaste while already hasted - it doesn't stack, but there's no internal cooldown). This gave me a total uptime, in time, not in terms of attacks.

Results:
Time in Combat 1998
Time in Haste 421
% uptime 26.6%
Base Haste Rating 212
Effective Avg Haste Rating 56.45

Is 33.3 min an acceptable amount? I don't know, but it is the only test I've seen so far. I'd love a link to the other tests if people can find it?

I suppose this doesn't say much about the base PPM, but using WF/Stormstrike and having the flurry talent is how we play, and I'd rather test for the actual uptime instead of trying to calculate it.

Last edited by Disquette : 08/18/07 at 6:59 PM.
#1539SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Myul
Those values are determined for a a karazhan geared shaman and not a bt/mh raiding

3000 ap 35% crit 25% hit

beast with dst. I hardly doubt, that haste has such a low benefit for those stats.

Dragonstrike has a roughly 1.5 PPM*, that's (212+212/2)/4=80 haste rating on average.
Using 1hr=2.0 aep, it's worthy 160 aep.

* = was tested on this board, but can't find it for the moment with the search function, i'm sorry.

Imho, syphon is to slow for your mainhand (while not dual wielding it) and i would prefer [Rising Tide] slightly over it (for your offhand).

---

Regarding AEP, i was looking at the thread "Relentless Earthstorm Diamond - melee only?" and since it's unquestionable one of the better meta gems, shouldn't we value crit & agi higher?



Raidbuffed scenario (including assumed haste changes from patch 2.2) for the 2200/25/22 setup.

Haste Rating = 1.69
Strength = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2.18
Agility = 2.12
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1

-> Lootzor
Then would this math be correct in saying the T6 gloves pass the naj'entus ones?

+25 Agility (24)
+24 Stamina
+17 Intellect
Equip: Improves haste rating by 37 (22.2?)
Equip: Increases attack power by 76 (38)
total: 84.2?

+46 Strength (50.6)
+45 Stamina
+30 Intellect
Equip: Improves hit rating by 13 (9.1)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 26 (26)
total: 85.7?
#1540SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Thanks for testing this Disquette, this has been bugging me for quite a while now!
Anyway it seems the Dragonstrike is about 13AEP better than Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, but the cleaver has more sta on it and dps plus if you're an orc like me it's a clear winner.

Seems i don't have to get BS afterall.

A readjusment of the DST value is in order though, wonder how close to Tsunami it is now!
#1541SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Using Disquette's testing (~60 avg haste, see Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I) and the new AEP value (~1.6, see Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I and Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I) for haste:

[Dragonstrike]: 96 AEP (using the above mentioned values)
[Rising Tide]: ~74 AEP + ~3 DPS more (since 12 AP increase your damage by 1 DPS, that makes 36 AEP extra), total of 110 AEP, 14 AEP more than Dragonstrike
[Syphon of the Nathrezim]: 50 AEP + Proc + ~3 DPS more (36 AEP), total 86 AEP (not including the proc), 10 AEP less than Dragonstrike
[Rod of the Sun King]: 50 AEP + ~1 DPS more (12 AEP), total 62 AEP, 34 AEP less than Dragonstrike

The total value is only valid when comparing those weapon to Dragonstrike.
Those values do not take higher avg damage (meaning higher WF and Stormstrike damage) into account.
Am I totally wrong with this stuff (especially my DPS-AEP-equation)?
#1542SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sharmania
Thanks for testing this Disquette, this has been bugging me for quite a while now!
Anyway it seems the Dragonstrike is about 13AEP better than Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, but the cleaver has more sta on it and dps plus if you're an orc like me it's a clear winner.

Seems i don't have to get BS afterall.

A readjusment of the DST value is in order though, wonder how close to Tsunami it is now!
As it stands now now (2.12):
[Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP assuming a 0.9 ppm
[Dragonspine Trophy] 202.5 AEP assuming a 1.5 ppm

Now, since DST has 40 passive AP, 40 AEP of the total will not change.. The haste AEP would then be 162.5. Assuming haste is 33% less effective, that would make the hasted AEP component weigh in at ~108.33. Unless I'm crazy, that would mean the new value would be 148.33 AEP, assuming a 1.5 ppm.

So for patch 2.2:
[Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP assuming a 0.9 ppm
[Dragonspine Trophy] 148.33 AEP assuming a 1.5 ppm

DST is still slightly better overall, but not by much.

Last edited by Beowolf : 08/18/07 at 8:48 PM.
#1543SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Disquette
25% uptime is actually 1.5 ppm (but with wf & ss) in your example, isn't it?

Igniter
You should run the simulator to revalue the stats for your current (raidbuffed) gear.

But for those stats it is:
[Fists of Mukoa]
76 (AP) + 25*2.12 (Agi) + 37*1.69 (HR)
76+53+63=192

[Skyshatter Grips] with [Inscribed Pyrestone]
(39+5+2)*2.2 (Str) + (21+5)*2.18 (CR) + 13*1.4 (HR)
101.2+56.7+18.2=176

drc
I really doubt, you can simply add the 3 extra dps (1 dps = 14 ap) with aep, but what's more important, you got higher min/maxdmg. And it's 0.1 speed faster, since wf is not normalised, you will lose some dps there.
Syphon is 0.1 slower with higher min & maxdmg, what add some extra ss dps. And i miss the gladiator weapons in this comparison.

But i can just say again, you should really revalue the aep for that point of gearlevel (beginning of even at the end of the t6 niveau).
At least, you will have 5% more crit, but i think it's even more (hit, crit & ap).
#1544SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Do we know if there's any plans to release new blacksmithing weapon patterns for upgrades?
#1545SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Malan
Do we know if there's any plans to release new blacksmithing weapon patterns for upgrades?
Thats the only question thats keeping me form going Blacksmithing
#1546SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah that was why I started leveling up LW today since I haven't seen a good indication that there will be a BT/Hyjal version of the weapons.
#1547SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Beowulf
[Tsunami Talisman] scales bad with crit, let's see:
regarding to Procs with/without internal cooldowns it has a 45s cooldown,
with 30% crit it's 49s to activate
with 40% crit it's 47s to activate
with 50% crit it's 46s to activate
So, you can safely work with 50s, resulting in a 1.2 ppm (6 proccs in 5 minutes, what really differs from the main page claim of 0.9 ppm). That's +68 aep on average (340 ap for 10 seconds, 40 seconds of no buff -> 340/5=68).
Add 10 hit, that's 10*1.4 = 14 aep
Add 38 cr * 2.18 = 83 aep
83 + 14 + 68 = 165 aep if i've not done a mistake.

[Dragonspine Trophy] scales very well with better gear, what's not considered in the aep calculation.
40 ap = 40 aep
325 ap for 15s/minute is 81.25 hr on average, or 137 aep.
177 aep for a karazhan geared shaman.

--

Regarding BS patterns. Nothing mentioned about that until now, wheter on blizzcon nor on any fanpage. I doubt you will see tier 4 weapons until the next 25 mans.

--

We could really need some revalued AEP's for a) t5 b) t6
#1548SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
Well if you want to get technical, DST technically has a proc rate of 1.7 ppm, according to wowhead and my own WWS buffs when compared to the known 2.0 ppm for mongoose. That would make the DST have an average HR of 92.08, or 141 AEP. So around 180 AEP overall?
#1549SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
What we really need right now are sims that are usable on platforms besides just windows ie, not written in VB or .NET, and ALL of which really need some sort of GUI or command line input that allows someone to easily change values to be used for multiple runs of the sims.

I actually started to write a Java Swing gui for Pater's sim at work the other day but then I decided it was a huge pain in the ass to basically recode a bunch of stuff to work with that.
#1550SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Myul
Well i can't help you on that mission, but i can collecting some numbers for your sim.

Buffs & Consumeables
Blessing of Might, Rank 8 +220 AP
Mark of the Wild, Rank 8 +14 Strength, +14 Agility
Battleshout, Rank, Rank 8 +305 AP
Smoked Desert Dumplings, +20 Strength
Strength of Earth Totem, +99 Strength
Flask of Relentless Assault, +120 AP
Blessing of Kings, 10% Stats

Using this profile, we have
314 AP, 97 Str -> 120 Base AP
2.44% Crit, 57 Agi -> 0.16%* Basecrit

Gear T5 (full mail & set, feel free to swap in some random drops or leather items)
Head [Cataclysm Helm] (12agi/3%critdmg, 4str/4 crit +4agi socket bonus) +34 AP +16 HR
Neck [Pendant of the Perilous]
Shoulder [Cataclysm Shoulderplates] (4str/6stam, 4str/4crit +3 cr socket bonus) +15 CR +20 AP (Scryer)
Back[Razor-Scale Battlecloak] +12 Agility
Chest [Cataclysm Chestplate] (4str/6stam, 4str/4crit, 8str +4 cr socket bonus) +6 Strength +6 Agility
Wrist [Bands of the Celestial Archer] +12 Strength
Gloves [Cataclysm Gauntlets] +15 Strength
Waist [Belt of the Black Eagle] (4str/6stam, 4str/4crit +3 agi socket bonus)
Legs [Cataclysm Legplates] (8str, +2 socket bonus) +50 AP +12 CR
Feet [Cobra-Lash Boots] (8str, 4str/6stam +3 agi socket bonus) +6 Agi
Finger [Ring of Lethality]
Finger [Band of the Ranger-General]
Trinket [Tsunami Talisman]
Trinket [Bloodlust Brooch]
Weapon [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]
Weapon [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]
Totem [Totem of the Astral Winds]

2647 AP (without UR)
31.0% Crit
19.7% Hit

----

Geat T6 (full mail & set, feel free to swap in some random drops or leather items)
Head [Skyshatter Cover] (12agi/3%critdmg, 5str/5 crit +6agi socket bonus) +34 AP +16 HR
Neck [Choker of Endless Nightmares]
Shoulder [Skyshatter Pauldrons] (5str/5crit, 5str/5crit +3 str socket bonus) +15 CR +20 AP (Scryer)
Back[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] +12 Agility
Chest [Skyshatter Tunic] (5str/7stam, 5str/5crit, 5str/5crit +4 str socket bonus) +6 Strength +6 Agility
Wrist [Wraps of Precise Flight] +12 Strength
Gloves [Skyshatter Grips] (5str/5crit +2 str socketbonus) +15 Strength
Waist [Boneweave Girdle]
Legs [Skyshatter Pants] (5str/7stam, +2 str socket bonus) +50 AP +12 CR
Feet [Softstep Boots of Tracking] +6 Agi
Finger [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
Finger [Ring of a Thousand Marks]
Trinket [Tsunami Talisman]
Trinket [Madness of the Betrayer]
Weapon [Rising Tide]
Weapon [Rising Tide]
Totem [Totem of the Astral Winds]

2760 AP (without UR)
31.2% Crit
25.3% Hit

Note:
a) There is no weapon buff actually included, i first want to check my ppm of mongoose at home and want to compare it to beowulf's - since i claim it was only around 1 procc like crusader. Do you have double mongoose? Or was only one weapon equipped for testing?
Anyway, should be somewhere between 1.32% crit (1 ppm) and 2.64% crit (2 ppm).
b) Choices have been made on the values for a 2200/25/22 shaman, but i think i wouldn't differ that much, so that some of those items just drop behind all other.
c) Setbonus are ignored (5% flurry haste should beat 70 ap with ease any day, shouldn't it?)

* if i remember correclty it's higher with maxed weapon skill, will check this at home
#1551SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Freyalis
So if old Haste rating was 2.22 AEP and Haste is now only 66% as valuable as it was previously then that makes the new Haste Rating AEP = 1.48. Slightly better than hit Rating.


Wicked Edge of the Planes = 23 Crit Rating + 48 AP = 94 AEP.

Minimum Uptime required for Dragonstrike to have an equal AEP value is

94 / 1.48 = 63.51 Average Haste Rating = 63.51 / 212 * 100 = 29.96 uptime%.


Therefore as long as your averaging a 30% uptime with the Haste proc from Dragonstrike you are at least equal to a Wicked Edge of the Planes.

As most players are reporting 40% uptime rates we can determine that it is still a clear winner over the axe even in its nerfed state.

A relief for me as I actually just switched over from axesmithing to macesmithing yesterday, and find out about this change this morning heh.

Last edited by Freyalis : 08/19/07 at 3:24 AM.
#1552SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3everwatch
Originally Posted by everwatch
2) 3 Rogue, 1 Feral Druid, 1 Sham (this happens in my guild the most often)

So does anyone have any ideas on this combo? WF or GoA?

Thanks
Hashassasin is a Combat Sword Rogue.
Darip is a Combat Fist Rogue.
Veneno is a Combat Sword Rogue.
Polymer is the Fury Warrior we run with.


We've been doing some testing with totems so far. Polymer typically has a HUGE deal of threat issues because of his DPS and has to hold back even with Salvation. We've tried some fights with Tranquil Air instead and the amount it's allowed him to open up has had him doing more total dmg than he's ever done before in any of our raids. Plus it's allowed me to open up significantly more as well doing more total raid dmg.

The rogues say they have some threat issues sometimes, however that is more fight dependent. For them it's not as big of a deal, however they've said they'd like to try out Poisons with GoA/TA totems for a while because initial raid runs have allowed everyone to do more total dmg.

If anyone has any numbers to back up or deny this it would be appreaciated. I do realize my specific guild's makeup may have different results than the statistical norm.

Thanks for the help.
#1553SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Disquette
Ok, i hadn't seen testing of the drakefist / dragonmaw proc before, and I'd always taken for granted they were right.

I just did testing to confirm/deny the 1.4 or 1.5 proc rate.

I used a blasted lands mob and tested for 1998 seconds, stormstike ever time it was up, windfury on both weapons. I did not have any other haste effects (procs, on use), and I have no passive haste gear.

I then paired up each "You gain haste" and "Haste fades from you" line, subtracting the first from the second (because you can rehaste while already hasted - it doesn't stack, but there's no internal cooldown). This gave me a total uptime, in time, not in terms of attacks.

Results:
Time in Combat 1998
Time in Haste 421
% uptime 26.6%
Base Haste Rating 212
Effective Avg Haste Rating 56.45

Is 33.3 min an acceptable amount? I don't know, but it is the only test I've seen so far. I'd love a link to the other tests if people can find it?

I suppose this doesn't say much about the base PPM, but using WF/Stormstrike and having the flurry talent is how we play, and I'd rather test for the actual uptime instead of trying to calculate it.
I was one of the people claiming a higher uptime than that and was surprised to see such a low result from your testing. I headed down there tonight to get some testing in and though my results weren't as good as the 40ish percent I remembered getting previously they were pretty close.

I spent just under an hour whacking on one of them and wound up with a 38.09% uptime according to uptime meter. I do however have gear that probably influences it. I was wearing my regular raiding gear with the exception of DST swapped for bloodlust brooch so I had 2 mongoose enchants and 141 passive haste rating. Do you think the other haste stuff would have that much of an effect on it? Or are our two tests just on opposite ends of the probability spectrum?

Screenshot from the end:
http://grig.shackspace.com/dstest.jpg
#1554SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oglas
After reading the first few and last 10-15 pages of thread (quite good "book" y'all wrote there ), I was wondering how my numbers are, compared to other (more) end-game shamans.

Currently my gear is T4 with some bits and pieces from SSC/TK. 4/5 T4, PVP bracers :S with +hit gem (soon those haste craftables from BT/MH), Void Reaver Greaves, some Kara belt+boots, Dragonspine Trophy and Bloodlust brooch trinkets and rings from Karazhan+Lurker. Well, it's on Armory, just might be PVP gear at the moment.

So, STR+AGI+ManaSpring totems, no elixirs or food, only selfbuffs and procs. Target was Servant of Razelikh ofc (poor guy). Was popping BBrooch and ShamRage on every CD together, also a Major Mana Pot on every CD. Did Bloodlust twice, whole fight lasted 12 minutes give or take 10s. Ended up with 1130 constant DPS. Only other thing I got is Windfury proc screenshot, click link.

So, what I want to know is what DPS numbers are other Shamans getting? Especialy those geared in T5/T6 with a slightly better offhand than mine (wrong speed )...

Here's a screenshot of a part of my WF procs, only useful data i got besides DPS meter (will try to get some decent addon for analysis for next run). It's quite obvious how many of my windfury procs are made by the damn slower offhand, since the numbers match up quite nice (1.3-2.1 offhand procs vs. 2.5-4+k mainhand procs).
#1555SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by oglas
Here's a screenshot of a part of my WF procs, only useful data i got besides DPS meter (will try to get some decent addon for analysis for next run). It's quite obvious how many of my windfury procs are made by the damn slower offhand, since the numbers match up quite nice (1.3-2.1 offhand procs vs. 2.5-4+k mainhand procs).
What mob/boss are you hitting to get these numbers?

I dont recall getting anywhere near 3k without a mob being weakened by a proc/no armor.
#1556SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aggromedon
He said in his post he was testing the procs on Servant of Razelikh.
#1557SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
Its from windfuryfu, so is giving total for a proc, not for a hit (ie its 2 hits added together).
#1558SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Its from windfuryfu, so is giving total for a proc, not for a hit (ie its 2 hits added together).
Ah that makes sense then.
#1559SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oglas
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Its from windfuryfu, so is giving total for a proc, not for a hit (ie its 2 hits added together).
Actualy, it's Hit + 2xWF extra hits together. So for example, if WindfuryFu says 4.8k, it's actualy one crit for 1.5k that procced 2 extra WF crits for 1.7k each.
#1560SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Maybe I'll make my own sim in PHP :-)
Can someone sum all procs ppm in 1 post please?
#1561SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
oglas
Originally Posted by Stigmata
What mob/boss are you hitting to get these numbers?
I dont recall getting anywhere near 3k without a mob being weakened by a proc/no armor.
Was hitting Servant of Razelikh. Still havent done a 3k crit tho , maybe some day. My best single crits on "cloth" mobs raidbuffed with all the juice turned ON are around 2400 mark. Ofc, those are crits made by extra attack with windfury AP bonus. Best WF proc (hit + proc + proc) combined was 6221 on the humanoid guy before Attumen.

Last edited by oglas : 08/19/07 at 8:10 AM.
#1562SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
Originally Posted by oglas
Was hitting Servant of Razelikh. Still havent done a 3k crit tho , maybe some day. My best single crits on "cloth" mobs raidbuffed with all the juice turned ON are around 2400 mark. Ofc, those are crits made by extra attack with windfury AP bonus. Best WF proc (hit + proc + proc) combined was 6221 on the humanoid guy before Attument.
Some proper windfuryfu numbers:




And for a slightly more sensible bit, been doing some testing on Madness of the Betrayer. Uptime for me is at 40% Giving it an average of 120 armour penetration.

Using the numbers from my post on armour penetration this (for me) will on average be worth (120x0.364) = 43.68aep, add in the 20 hit and 84 ap and we get 156aep, even with lower armour targets this wont get much above 160aep.
#1563SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oglas
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Some proper windfuryfu numbers:
How much extra damage in % does he receive? My best was 12700 WFFu on Curator. Still low.
#1564SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by oglas
How much extra damage in % does he receive? My best was 12700 WFFu on Curator. Still low.
The pic is with Fel rage on bloodboil.
#1565SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Razputin
Hi, I know the interactions between different slow weapons havent really been tested, but hopefully some1 has tried this combo.

Im currently using [The Decapitator] and [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] my guild is working on Al'ar so pretty soon I could either get [Netherbane] and use it as OH with the arena one as MH or go for [Talon of the Phoenix]

The stats from the fist weapon are better, but its speed is 2.7 and my OH would be 2.6, would this cause my OH to always have first dibs on WF and decrease my total DPS?

Thanks for any help with this
#1566SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Glad MH and Netherbane OH
But with loot being so random, i'd say you go for what drops first
#1567SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Morelis
I was one of the people claiming a higher uptime than that and was surprised to see such a low result from your testing. I headed down there tonight to get some testing in and though my results weren't as good as the 40ish percent I remembered getting previously they were pretty close.

I spent just under an hour whacking on one of them and wound up with a 38.09% uptime according to uptime meter. I do however have gear that probably influences it. I was wearing my regular raiding gear with the exception of DST swapped for bloodlust brooch so I had 2 mongoose enchants and 141 passive haste rating. Do you think the other haste stuff would have that much of an effect on it? Or are our two tests just on opposite ends of the probability spectrum?

Screenshot from the end:
http://grig.shackspace.com/dstest.jpg
First of all, the amount of passive haste you have sickens me, and makes me jealous!

I don't know if it's the probability, or the passive haste, or what. I'm guessing that with the kind of gear you have, you also have a higher crit rate, so you'd spend more time in flurry (that's the major affect of your mongoose procs, i'd guess).

I've never used uptime meter, but I like the concept. I'll try that for my next test. Thanks a bunch for the data - I'm always a bit squeamish when I dont know the source. Now that I know it's you, I can at least know the numbers are coming from decent testing.
#1568SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Malan
Worst case scenario of Windfury with a fast OH, assuming that the first weapon to hit will always trigger Windfury when able to do so:
I got curious about this and decided to check with my friend Excel what happens when the off hand is not evenly divided by the Windfury cooldown.

I used the following speeds:
Main Hand: 2.7 speed ([Drakefist Hammer])
Off Hand: 2.6 speed ([Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler])

After 351 seconds (roughly 6 mins) all three would meet again (ie main hand + off hand would hit and Windfury cooldown be down again).

During that period I got 62 times where the main hand was first inline to get a hit after Windfury cooldown and only 55 for the off hand. Did anyone else count on this and are my numbers wrong? I didn't take into account Stormstrike nor haste and I assumed WF proced at the first hit.

Perhaps the numbers aren't wrong but the info is useless since Windfury only procs on 1/5 and it should somehow count during 5 next hits how many strikes each weapon has after a Windfury cooldown wears off?
#1569SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
So if it used to be 0.9 Haste Rating = 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP, am I correct in assuming after the haste nerf it will be 1 CR = 1.35 Haste Rating = 1.43 HR = 2 AP?
#1570SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
@Tristan - I took Pater's sim the other day and ran about 10 tests of a 2.7/2.6 vs 2.6/2.6 combo, and each run of the sim had the 2.7 combo lower in DPS by a slight margin. (about 10-20 DPS for my gear level)
#1571SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Sebudai
So if it used to be 0.9 Haste Rating = 1 CR = 1.43 HR = 2 AP, am I correct in assuming after the haste nerf it will be 1 CR = 1.35 Haste Rating = 1.43 HR = 2 AP?
If you're modeling haste rating on a kara geared shaman then yes.
#1572SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Malan over what timeframe?
#1573SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Pater's sim runs for 360,000 seconds as I recall.
#1574SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
Mainly @ Yo!

Your wall of text crit me so hard I had to spirit rez

A Problem -> Solution style would be much more effective in getting your point across.

For example: Haste rating on the front page is rated at X. With the coming changes, I feel it should be valued at X because <insert your voodoo/math/divination/drug-induced-fantasy here>

Our current AEP system is just fine with me. It gives me exactly what I needed, a down and dirty quick look at "What is best when hitting things in the face"

Nobody took it as the gospel, just as a good model to follow. It gives us something that we can all take as a general guide instead of using quantum physics to figure out the exact benefit of X agi versus X hit, which we all had to do independantly beforehand.

If that model is significantly off, tell us what is wrong, and what you would change to make it right. Like multiple AEP values for different stages in progression or something. I dont know, but it seemed like you put a lot of work in to tell us AEP wasn't 100% accurate which is something most of us assumed from the beginning anyway.

Sorry to dredge up those posts, and for the negativity. There is so much good in this thread that I link it to every shaman i see running around with a 1.4 speed offhand. Thanks again Malan for keeping this updated!
#1575SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
Morelis:

Did you use an alt to farm the mats for your tradeskills? Or did you buy it up off the AH? I'm currently enchanting and JCing *was mining*, but I've been itching to get the Dragonstrike and that leather shoulder pattern. Should I bother?
#1576SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Morelis:

Did you use an alt to farm the mats for your tradeskills? Or did you buy it up off the AH? I'm currently enchanting and JCing *was mining*, but I've been itching to get the Dragonstrike and that leather shoulder pattern. Should I bother?
Post-nerf Dragonstrike is still pretty decent, the shoulders aren't worth it anymore though. I had mining on an alt for BS and when I decided to do LW I took skinning first and farmed everything I needed to get to 375 then dropped it to pick up LW.
#1577SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Disquette
Ok, i hadn't seen testing of the drakefist / dragonmaw proc before, and I'd always taken for granted they were right.

I just did testing to confirm/deny the 1.4 or 1.5 proc rate.

I used a blasted lands mob and tested for 1998 seconds, stormstike ever time it was up, windfury on both weapons. I did not have any other haste effects (procs, on use), and I have no passive haste gear.

I then paired up each "You gain haste" and "Haste fades from you" line, subtracting the first from the second (because you can rehaste while already hasted - it doesn't stack, but there's no internal cooldown). This gave me a total uptime, in time, not in terms of attacks.

Results:
Time in Combat 1998
Time in Haste 421
% uptime 26.6%
Base Haste Rating 212
Effective Avg Haste Rating 56.45

Is 33.3 min an acceptable amount? I don't know, but it is the only test I've seen so far. I'd love a link to the other tests if people can find it?

I suppose this doesn't say much about the base PPM, but using WF/Stormstrike and having the flurry talent is how we play, and I'd rather test for the actual uptime instead of trying to calculate it.
Another thing to consider is the fact that more haste/hit will give you a higher uptime on the buff. Particularly, the [Dragonspine Trophy] procs alot. However, the buff from the mace and the DST both have the same name ("haste"), so even with logs, you can't check exactly which is proccing. This makes the exact uptime in the optimal case difficult to test. Here's a comment about these items and the haste nerf.

As an aside, I've been swapping in and out my AP gear for my +hit gear, and my DPS has been fairly consistant across attempts, possibly due to the affect my procs are having. My guild isn't up to BT yet, so if a Shaman with both Dragonstrike/DST can test their damage on Teron with a +hit set and an AP set, I'd be fairly interested.

Last edited by panny : 08/19/07 at 9:20 PM.
#1578SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by forge
I'm trying to keep something like 130-150 hit rating, aiming to keep 25% crit and going for 1500AP now after that going for more crit and more crit as it comes. I've been doing some testing on lowering my hit and so on but i'm not sure if it helps a lot or am i just gimping my stats by going all the wrong ways.

So, my current stats are:
AP 1463
Hit 123
Crit 26.04%

If i change my gear a bit i can go:
AP 1404
Hit 157
Crit 27.32%
Your best bet with any gear decision, provided your stats are well rounded (which they seem to be), is to simply do the AEP math and go with what's rated best. The AEP values are designed to eliminate guesswork.

Here's an example of where they're useful (excluding the complex dynamics of WF and SS, under the assumption that at this level they scale AP/HR & Crit the same as white damage). In your example here, you've essentially sacrificed about 4% of your absolute damage. In exchange, you're gaining 1.28% crit and 2.15% to hit, for a grand total of 3.43% more damage by chance. So you've nerfed yourself slightly. If you don't drink Major Agility, drop GoA or group with druids, you may need that extra 1.28% crit chance to keep up Flurry and Rage, and that may be worth a loss of .6%.

Get Pawn and Outfitter going and just compare your gear. It may be there's a real good combination in your bank already, just waiting to be discovered. I gained about 40 dps the first time I did this, re-equipping well rounded gear I otherwise might have sharded.
#1579SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I think a good target to aim for is 1500AP/150Hit/25% crit unbuffed, from there you can decide what you prefer and what you think is better for you.

There does not seem to be a right and wrong, If I drop more hit for AP, my DPS does not increase, likewise if I get more hit at the cost of AP my dps does not change.

My next target will be 1700AP/200Hit/30%Crit. The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever.
#1580SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Hmm ok so I was testing this in 5-mans (Fist weapon MH and OH out of Arc/Bot)

It seems I get more DPS consistently using the WF/FB combo whereas the first post said WF in the OH will substantially have more DPS.

I'm not getting something behind the theorycraft behind the weapon imbues maybe?
#1581SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
#1582SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by drc
An armory link would have been helpful, but I take from your post that you are using [Reflex Blades] and [Stormreaver Warblades]. If so, there's your mistake. Fast offhands "steal" the mainhand's WF procs and thus lower your overall damage.
Right. Which is why I use FB on my OH
#1583SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Stigmata
The one thing that sticks out for me that people dont mention, is raid buffed stats, you cannot gain hit by any buff, so having a really low amount cannot be made up for with pots/flask or whatever.
Improved faerie fire can give you +3% hit on a target though.
#1584SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem
Right. Which is why I use FB on my OH
In which case you have an entirely different set of problems that we need to discuss...


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Pro Tip: Don't use Frostbrand. Ever!
#1585SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan
In which case you have an entirely different set of problems that we need to discuss...
That's what I was asking, if someone could clarify something for me, because in all honesty...I'm not getting something.

I was NEVER into theorycrafting for Shamans until now.

Should I use WF/WF for Slow MH/Fast OH or Slow MH/Slow OH.

I don't know how to maximize DPS with certain weapons (Slow or Fast weapons) with certain weapon imbues.

Pre BC, it was easy. Grab a 2H (It's slow), put WF on. You're set.

So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds?

I'm so confused atm.

Last edited by Usernaem : 08/20/07 at 7:21 AM.
#1586SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3scrub
I am really hoping that at level 80 an enchancement shaman will have more than 2-3 buttons to push, because at the moment I find shamans an incredibly boring class to DPS as.
#1587SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem
So again, can anyone clarify what the best combos to use for certain weapon speeds?

I'm so confused atm.
It is all spelled out on the first post of the thread - slow/slow, WF/WF.
#1588SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan
It is all spelled out on the first post of the thread - slow/slow, WF/WF.
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
#1589SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Usernaem
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
WF/FT
#1590SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
Improved faerie fire can give you +3% hit on a target though.
What % of guilds use boomkins?

I dont know of any top guilds using them (not to say that they dont)
#1591SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Originally Posted by Usernaem
And if I so happen to use Slow/Fast?
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?

Last edited by Malan : 08/20/07 at 8:27 AM.
#1592SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Malan
Accept the fact that your numbers are going to be terrible I guess? I'm not really sure what you're looking for here, you're using a sub-optimal OH with a sub-optimal imbue on it, and you somehow expect it to work out for the better?
Not exactly, until I replace it.

I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH.

I got that, thanks though.

I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH.

You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it. Thanks to the other guy btw for answering my question perfectly.
#1593SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
LiteSabre
A question to enhance shaman in endgame guilds: How much DPS do you normally put out?

A resto shammie I know recently respecced to enhance after we got Illidan down; he'd been gathering enhance loot on and off and wanted to try out being DPS. I tried to help him out as much as I could through this thread (he doesn't speak English), and we managed to whip his gear into a rough approximation of what I think might be normal. He is a bit low on hit though, but higher on crit than I think most enhance are. Dunno if the link will work, but here's the armory (dragonstrike/nathrezim instead of the 2hander, normally). Pants are Bow-stitched Leggings with +10 str in all 3 sockets. He hasn't gotten the totem of astral winds (is that right?) to drop yet.

Anyway, he was really pumped up, but he was only able to put out 600 to 700 DPS or so and got depressed when he compared himself to the other DPS, especially the elemental shaman who were putting out well in excess of 1200 DPS. I don't know if there's something he's doing wrong as I can't play for him, but I was wondering if there's some crucial something I'm missing and haven't told him. Is there some kind of secret DPS cycle that you guys use? :P

Last edited by LiteSabre : 08/20/07 at 9:15 AM.
#1594SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Enhance DPS is pretty dependent on group buffs - he needs to make sure he's getting BattleShout, maybe LotP, and definitely needs to be using consumables (food, pots). I can't read Korean so I can't comment much on his gear, but his AP/Crit/Hit totals seem to look ok - the only thing I'd question is that he seems to be wearing a Drake Fang Talisman? If so, replace that ASAP. There's no secret cycle, depends a lot on what fight you're saying he's getting that DPS on.
#1595SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Usernaem
I understand the fast OH will lower my DPS as compared to a slow OH.

I got that, thanks though.

I was asking which imbues would be best for what speed of weapons of OH.

You could of simply answered the question instead of trying to be a little bit rude about it.
He was rude because the answer to your question is pretty much spelled out in the bumper post:

You will get better dps RIGHT NOW by dropping that fast OH and picking up a crummy green OH with 2.6 speed and putting WF on it. I can vouch for this, because I made that EXACT trade and saw a hefty boost.

If you insist on using a fast OH, by all means use WF/FT, but realize you're nerfing yourself. Hey, I think that weapon combo looks awesome too -- but it didn't help my raid much.
#1596SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LiteSabre
The only party buff he gets is battle shout, and he uses major fortitude+major agility with the strength food.

Yeah, that's a DFT. I told him to scrap it but he insists that he needs it or he loses too much hit. Bah. I assume I'm not mistaken that a bloodlust brooch would be more effective than the talisman?

The fight in question was Anetheron, but he achieved similar numbers on Morogrim, Teron and Rage Winterchill. Basically near-tank'n'spank fights. The highest I ever saw him go was 730 or so.

The thing is, I (and most of our raid) was under the impression that enhance shaman were masters of 'winning the threat meter'. At least then it's be a question of threat cap and not of DPS. So when he wasn't even visible on the threat meter, it seemed to hit him pretty hard.

Oh, and another question: for weapons, he has access to one Merc. Gladiator's Cleaver, Syphon of the Nathrezim, Dragonstrike and an assortment of daggers/fast OHs that I promptly said no to after reading this thread. I'm assuming that the best possible combination would be MH Dragonstrike/OH Nathrezim; is that correct?
#1597SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
I understand why melee haste was changed. It was such a bargain that it was the preferred stat for almost every physical dps build.

That said, they did not perform an adjustment. It was outright nerfed it to hell. It appears that they more or less just decided to remove this mechanic from the game which is a shame because it was a good one in my opinion.
#1598SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
/edit: Nevermind, should refresh this page before replying.
#1599SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
#1600SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Iol
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
Without impractical sacrifices, the hit cap is unattainable for Shaman. Also if end game gear is assumed, I think it is really important to consider 'Ingores Armor.' This stat will never be modeled well but it applies to 90% of our damage same as Str/AP do and is reasonably priced.
#1601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Originally Posted by Iol
I'd need some clarifications on the +hit value scaling with Crit / AP. I mean, we want to hit the +hit cap someday, when our AP and Crit is pretty high as well. But it's unclear what + hit to aim for depending on your overall gear level...

For a 1600 AP 30% crit, what's a healthy +hit
For a 2100 AP 36% crit, does the healthy +hit value increased in a linear way.
Without impractical sacrifices, the hit cap is unattainable for Shaman. Also if end game gear is assumed, I think it is really important to consider 'Ingores Armor.' This stat will never be modeled well but it applies to 90% of our damage same as Str/AP do and is reasonably priced.
#1602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
A Euro CM this morning on the boards seem pretty damn surprised at the Haste change, so maybe there's a chance it was not intentional.

@Litesabre - yah he'd be better off dropping the DFT and getting a Brooch. Dragonstrike/Syphon is a good combo if he's got access to it, otherwise the Cleaver fills in on either hand nicely. Make sure he's got his gear properly enchanted, the leg enchant is a big boost. Also make sure he's not trying to do WF5/WF4 on his weapons.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"

Last edited by Malan : 08/20/07 at 11:56 AM.
#1603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tenu
Originally Posted by LiteSabre
Is there some kind of secret DPS cycle that you guys use? :P
Well, nothing particularly secret. Stormstrike when it comes up, and if you want to get advanced use wfcd mod or similar to wait a moment if you're still in the WF cooldown. Interleave with Flame Shock for the best DPS, or Earth shock if Flame shock is already up or you can't use it due to the debuff limit.

Since he's new to melee DPSing it might be worth checking that he is positioned correctly. It could be that he is drifting out of range, or into a position where he will start getting parried etc.
#1604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
I changed my model for the new melee haste value and 1 HasteRating is now as good/bad as 1 HitRating:

Base: 989.519653 = 2200 AP, 22% Hit, 25% Crit, 0 Haste, 2.6s Weapons
+ 1% Hit: 997.479431
+ 1% Haste: 997.417542
+ 1% Crit: 1002.89575
+ 50 AP: 1003.89355

Obviously they changed it, because hasterating was superior to any other rating, now all 4 ratings are fairly consistent, even though for an enh shaman Strength is slightly superior to CritRating.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#1605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
I'd be happy if they brought spell haste into line without neutering the whole melee haste dynamic. As it is, I've passed on a number of "best in the game" items in favor of haste items that are currently better. I've been waiting for a long time to upgrade my Ebon Netherscale belt with neither boneweave or valestalker dropping, and passing on boneweave to a hunter since it's more optimal for him while valestalker is pretty poor for him. Now this makes the dropped physical haste pieces inferior to stuff that hunters also want.
#1606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by Tenu
Since he's new to melee DPSing it might be worth checking that he is positioned correctly. It could be that he is drifting out of range, or into a position where he will start getting parried etc.
I can't really stress this enough. Give him time before getting all sad, learning to melee takes a significant amount of practice if you haven't done it before.

On the other hand having to do things like heal, run out of range, avoid cleaves, etc will change your damage output by hundreds of dps. For example, while we were learning Gorefiend my dps would vary from anywhere near 600 to above 1100 depending on how much mana I had available and how often I had to throw out spot heals. By the time we got him down, and the entire raid knew how to do the fight, I was pushing towards 1300 dps because I was able to focus on just that.

This was also probably assumed, but make sure he's getting BoMight. Took me a while to get our pallies used to maintaining 5 minute buffs.
#1607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Aett
This was also probably assumed, but make sure he's getting BoMight. Took me a while to get our pallies used to maintaining 5 minute buffs.
MACRO:

/w "paladins in raid" WISDOM-------> MIGHT
/y WISDOM---->MIGHT
/raid WISDOM------> MIGHT

Spam this before every boss and eventually it'll train them into an automatic response.
#1608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
He was rude because the answer to your question is pretty much spelled out in the bumper post:

You will get better dps RIGHT NOW by dropping that fast OH and picking up a crummy green OH with 2.6 speed and putting WF on it. I can vouch for this, because I made that EXACT trade and saw a hefty boost.

If you insist on using a fast OH, by all means use WF/FT, but realize you're nerfing yourself. Hey, I think that weapon combo looks awesome too -- but it didn't help my raid much.
Still no reason to be rude unless his wrists are bleeding over the desk from his wife cheating on him at 4 AM.

Then that's understandable...or he has a small penis.

I would be rude 24/7 as well. Meh, thanks again.
#1609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Usernaem
Still no reason to be rude unless his wrists are bleeding over the desk from his wife cheating on him at 4 AM.

Then that's understandable...or he has a small penis.

I would be rude 24/7 as well. Meh, thanks again.
Did you really have to post this?

Malan had all the right in the world to be rude. He explains perfectly what you should do in a post he put hours and hours of work in, only to see people ignoring it.

Back on topic, does one of the simulators has the option to use the 'new' (lets hope its just a bug..) haste values?
#1610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ulix
Dont know for 100% if its true, but haste rating seems to be nerfed on PTR:

Dragonspine Trophy

Live 30.9% haste
PTR 20.7% haste


And apparently this applies to ALL haste items.. kinda sucky!
#1611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Ulix
Dont know for 100% if its true, but haste rating seems to be nerfed on PTR:
This has been posted several times in several places over the last few days. I went to a wedding over the weekend and I don't have an active account right now and even I already knew this.

__________________
[Castille] I WOULD HEAL BUT IT RESETS MY SWING TIMER
#1612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This has been posted several times in several places over the last few days. I went to a wedding over the weekend and I don't have an active account right now and even I already knew this.
Blue post:
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Haste Rating Nerf - WTF blues?

Wow, hot topic.

Firstly the moderator part of me has to say: let's keep it civil, guys.

Secondly, concerning the 'nerf': I have heard nothing about it.

I'll take note of this and look into it for you.
It could be a mistake. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

Has anyone on the PTR noticed if mongoose was effected by the haste nerf?
#1613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Has anyone on the PTR noticed if mongoose was effected by the haste nerf?
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Lightning Speed

The mongoose 'haste' effect is a fixed %, not influenced by ratings. Thottbot World of Warcraft: Spell Effect: Apply Aura: Haste - Melee
#1614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by vorda
Did you really have to post this?
Yes.

Originally Posted by vorda
Malan had all the right in the world to be rude.
No.
#1615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
WF 3 sec hidden cooldown

Some pictures for you to look at:
1) Percentage (z axis) of main hand WFs lost due to hidden cooldown
Rights axis is MH speed, left - OH speed


2) Same thing, another angle, red is bad, blue is good
Please notice that while speed range is 0.5s(lots of haste) - 3s, there are some non-existent combos such as 3 MH + 0.5 OH. These correspond to left and right corners.


3) OH's WFs lost due to hidden colldown


4) Another angle


Now I noticed that while slower speed is better for both MH and OH there was an unusual behavior when both weapons had same speed. For MH same speed yielded better results than if OH had just slightly different speed. For OH it is opposite.

5) Here is the combined graph where you can see total WF damage reduction from hidden cooldown. I used MH vs OH weights 5:4.



6) Take a closer look at spikes along the diagonal (same speeds)


7) Much more accurate simulation was taken to investigate these spikes


8) Closer look of "mountain ridge":


The difference of these spikes form nearby points is about 5% of total WF damage.

Here are the conclusions:
1) Use slow weapons (nothing new here)
2) Best combo - good slow MH and good slow OH with different speed. If they have the same speed - you will perform slightly less than similar pair of weapons with different speeds.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/20/07 at 3:49 PM.
#1616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Kaubel
Originally Posted by Usernaem
Still no reason to be rude unless his wrists are bleeding over the desk from his wife cheating on him at 4 AM.

Then that's understandable...or he has a small penis.

I would be rude 24/7 as well. Meh, thanks again.
He wasn't rude and you're being dumb. Feel free to argue with me on this.
#1617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Yo!
2) Best combo - good slow MH and good slow OH with different speed. If they have the same speed - you will perform slightly less than similar pair of weapons with different speeds.
I'm interested in knowing why you believe this is the case, given that if you synchronize your swings you'll be getting 4 swings per flurry and your main hand will always be considered to be striking 'first' when both hands swing at the same time. I understand that there are ridges in your graph, but I don't understand why unless the only thing you're doing is modeling WFs lost to the timer, in which case you aren't taking the full gamut of mechanics in to consideration.

__________________
[Castille] I WOULD HEAL BUT IT RESETS MY SWING TIMER
#1618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
I have read almost all of this, but I don't think I've seen an answer to the one question I most want answered:

When the MH and OH hit at the same time, which weapon gets preference? There is no way that there is no preference. If that was the case, then both could proc and I've never seen that happen.
#1619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Iol
Originally Posted by Ilmater
I have read almost all of this, but I don't think I've seen an answer to the one question I most want answered:

When the MH and OH hit at the same time, which weapon gets preference? There is no way that there is no preference. If that was the case, then both could proc and I've never seen that happen.
It's been discussed.

Testing seems to show that if you start Autoattacking while being inside Melee range, the MH hits first even though both hands swings at same time. Though if you start autoattacking outside of melee range the OH gets the first hit.

Go some place with Lots of Critters, run up to one in melee range, and press autoattack. Your MH will kill it and your OH won't swing. But if you start autoattack and run up to it after, your OH will kill it and your MH won't swing.

Once cycle has started, it seems to only get out of sync if you "miss" a swing cycle due to being out of range.
#1620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Wow those graphs mean absolutely nothing to me. Thanks for the added confusion.

@Ilmater, I thikn the answer to your question is no one knows for certain.
#1621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kurthe
I was wondering if my itemization was going in the right direction. I've been focusing primarily on crit raiting.

The upgrades I'm working on:

Neck: Mithril Chain of Heroism or Adamantine Chain of the Unbroken
Belt: Veteran's Linked Girdle or Girdle of the Prowler or Girdle of the Endless Pit
Ring: Ring of a Thousand Marks or Violet Signet of the Master Assassin
Cloak: Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings
Trinkets: Dragonspine Trophy and Bloodlust Brooch
Feet: Fiend Slayer Boots or Ferocious Swift-Kickers
Relic: Totem of Astral Winds

Thanks in advance for any advice given.
#1622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
New poster here. I'm a huge fan of these works, thanks for keeping them going. On to the meat.

I didn't know about that autoattacking problem - that's great info. Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
#1623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
2) Best combo - good slow MH and good slow OH with different speed. If they have the same speed - you will perform slightly less than similar pair of weapons with different speeds.
Someone else had mentioned this observation a week or so ago, looks like you found the data to really back it up. So the question I still have though is what direction should the speed difference be - slighly slower or faster OH?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Morninglory
New poster here. I'm a huge fan of these works, thanks for keeping them going. On to the meat.

I didn't know about that autoattacking problem - that's great info. Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
Yes. OH will hit first everytime if you started out of combat range.
#1625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Iol
Originally Posted by Morninglory
Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?
When I tested that, it showed the one hand that started the cycle to keep hitting first. Unless, like I said, I missed a cycle by moving out of range with auto attack still turned on, when that ocurred I had random behaviors.

So now, I just use the toggle auto attack button more. When I know I have to move out of range or get a knockback I turn it off and turn it back on only when I re-establish melee range.
#1626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
I heard that it will just give 4 immediate strikes in that case.
It does, but imo its better to hold SS for a second to check if your initial swings didnt proc WF, in which case I try to time SS for when the WF cooldown is over. (no idea if that actually improves my dps, since we'r talking about a full 3 second pause?)
#1627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
Someone else had mentioned this observation a week or so ago, looks like you found the data to really back it up. So the question I still have though is what direction should the speed difference be - slighly slower or faster OH?
Can not answer it with my sim as it appears now.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:25 AM. Reason: Wrong answer
#1628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Originally Posted by Morninglory
I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
There is no Panel mod I know of, but there are a few good mods available.

I use this one for tracking my attack speed.
Anavar's Attack Speedometer | Downloads

It basically shows the attack speed percentage and what the individual weapon attack speeds are. Its basic function is just the percentage, mess around with it a bit, the individual attack speeds can be turned on.

Another mod to check out is Index of /WF3sec/ .

This was designed by someone here on the forums. It shows attack power, crit and hit. Believe it also shows Attack Speed, but I have that function turned off. But it also shows cool down bars for the internal 3 sec Windfury timer and Stormstrike among other things.

I run both, with certain things turned off to suit my needs.
#1629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
Slower.
I went digging back to find some posts related to this. Around page 50 or so someone had posted some WWS parses with testing between Rising Tide and the Syphon to see which made the better MH/OH combo. The WWS parse showed that having the slower weapon in the MH resulted in a 10-12 DPS gain over having the OH be the slower of the two. Disquette followed up that post by stating he'd seen the same indications in his sim. Thoughts on that?
#1630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
I personally SS every 10 seconds to keep up the SS debuff as often as possible since we run with an elemental shaman. Seems like a miniscule dps increase for a potentially larger one from a few more 20% lightning bolts per fight.
#1631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm interested in knowing why you believe this is the case, given that if you synchronize your swings you'll be getting 4 swings per flurry and your main hand will always be considered to be striking 'first' when both hands swing at the same time. I understand that there are ridges in your graph, but I don't understand why unless the only thing you're doing is modeling WFs lost to the timer, in which case you aren't taking the full gamut of mechanics in to consideration.
4 swings per flurry is exactly 1 swing from MH, 1 swing from OH, 2 extra from WF from the hand that triggered it with the MH having the priority (this was explained somewhere before). There is no hidden benifit for using same speed weapons implented by Blizz.
#1632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Aeolian
There is no Panel mod I know of, but there are a few good mods available.

I use this one for tracking my attack speed.
Anavar's Attack Speedometer | Downloads

It basically shows the attack speed percentage and what the individual weapon attack speeds are. Its basic function is just the percentage, mess around with it a bit, the individual attack speeds can be turned on.

Another mod to check out is Index of /WF3sec/ .

This was designed by someone here on the forums. It shows attack power, crit and hit. Believe it also shows Attack Speed, but I have that function turned off. But it also shows cool down bars for the internal 3 sec Windfury timer and Stormstrike among other things.

I run both, with certain things turned off to suit my needs.
Fantastic! I'll grab the both of them.

On another note, I'll be grabbing a merc. gladiator weapon tomorrow. I'm probably going to get the 2.6 axe even though aesthetically I really would like the Right Ripper. (MH only, doh....) I will be moving my current MH, netherbane, to my OH as well. I'm still tossed up on which enchant to put on my new weapon. I know this has been covered before, but I can't help thinking that I'll see a bigger gain from putting Crusader or Potency on my new weapon since Netherbane has mongoose on it already. It's not a question of money, I have the mats for either. Someone reassure me that Mongoose will really help and not push me towards some kind of diminishing crit returns while raid buffed!
#1633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
I went digging back to find some posts related to this. Around page 50 or so someone had posted some WWS parses with testing between Rising Tide and the Syphon to see which made the better MH/OH combo. The WWS parse showed that having the slower weapon in the MH resulted in a 10-12 DPS gain over having the OH be the slower of the two. Disquette followed up that post by stating he'd seen the same indications in his sim. Thoughts on that?
Run bigger test, the answer of what is the better MH/OH combo is unclear. Probably it is outside of the game mechanics covered in my sim.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:21 AM.
#1634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
I changed my model for the new melee haste value and 1 HasteRating is now as good/bad as 1 HitRating:

Base: 989.519653 = 2200 AP, 22% Hit, 25% Crit, 0 Haste, 2.6s Weapons
+ 1% Hit: 997.479431
+ 1% Haste: 997.417542
+ 1% Crit: 1002.89575
+ 50 AP: 1003.89355

Obviously they changed it, because hasterating was superior to any other rating, now all 4 ratings are fairly consistent, even though for an enh shaman Strength is slightly superior to CritRating.
Have you even redone your model to reflect the stats of people who actually have haste rating? Seeing how it stacks up on a Kara geared player who won't have access to any is pretty pointless.
#1635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Yo!
4 swings per flurry is exactly 1 swing from MH, 1 swing from OH, 2 extra from WF from the hand that triggered it with the MH having the priority (this was explained somewhere before). There is no hidden benifit for using same speed weapons implented by Blizz.
That isn't what I said. Normally you get 3 charges of flurry, but if your MH and OH are synchronized then they will both receive the benefit of the last charge of flurry since the debuff isn't stripped fast enough. It's the same principle as WF5/4 during the 2.0 patch. It has nothing to do with Windfury. Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
#1636SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
I'm at work right now, but if i wasn't i'd be out testing how Flurry react with same speed weapons... Someone's gotta be faster than me to this test though.
#1637SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
If only there were an entire topic devoted to flurry.
#1638SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Morelis
Have you even redone your model to reflect the stats of people who actually have haste rating? Seeing how it stacks up on a Kara geared player who won't have access to any is pretty pointless.
Yeah, some values would be nice for BT shamans. Lets say as a starting point: 2500 AP, 30% Crit, 19% Hit, 6% passive haste, 2.8 spd weapons.
#1639SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Morninglory
I know this has been covered before, but I can't help thinking that I'll see a bigger gain from putting Crusader or Potency on my new weapon since Netherbane has mongoose on it already. It's not a question of money, I have the mats for either. Someone reassure me that Mongoose will really help and not push me towards some kind of diminishing crit returns while raid buffed!
Double mongoose is so good that I'm forced to use 2.2/2.6 weapons until I get a better MH. I did some blasted lands testing on my 2.2/2.6 mongoose/mongoose vs my 2.6/2.6 mongoose/potency and the mongoose pair came out ahead every time. With a netherbane and arena weapon, it's well worth the dps increase to put mongoose on both.

I would enchant my pvp weapon so I could 2.6/2.6, but I refuse to put a 600g enchant on a blue weapon.
#1640SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Yeah, some values would be nice for BT shamans. Lets say as a starting point: 2500 AP, 30% Crit, 19% Hit, 6% passive haste, 2.8 spd weapons.
I'd suggest something closer to 2600-2700 ap, 35% crit (to approximate mongoose uptime, or lotp) 15-16% hit (around 100 rating) 8-10% haste (a few items + mongoose). It's been annoying me a bit lately that we keep referring back to baselines that just aren't very representative of good enhancement gear anymore.
#1641SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3akan
I'm currently leveling BS and was wondering is Dragonstrike still gonna be best MH in BT or will Syphon be the better upgrade since the haste nerf.
#1642SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
vorda
Originally Posted by akan
I'm currently leveling BS and was wondering is Dragonstrike still gonna be best MH in BT or will Syphon be the better upgrade since the haste nerf.
That math is a few pages (less than 5 ) back here, iirc, Dragonstrike still wins.

edit: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I , but be sure to read a few posts after that one aswell. Also, dont forget that AEP are based on certain stats which might be too low for well geared shamans. The post I linked doesnt take into account that haste increases ppm procs amongst others aswell.

Last edited by vorda : 08/20/07 at 5:40 PM.
#1643SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sollertree
Sorry if the question has already been asked and answered, but how much does ignore armor increase enhancement shaman DPS? For example, would [Choker of Serrated Blades] be a bigger DPS boost than [Choker of Endless Nightmares]? Anyone have any data on this?
#1644SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
I have done no testing since the Choker of Serrated Blades won't drop for me, but I highly doubt it will increase your dps by more than Choker of Endless Nightmares considering it has 37 stamina attached to it. Still, I prefer Serrated Blades.
#1645SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khlysti
Originally Posted by Sollertree
Sorry if the question has already been asked and answered, but how much does ignore armor increase enhancement shaman DPS? For example, would [Choker of Serrated Blades] be a bigger DPS boost than [Choker of Endless Nightmares]? Anyone have any data on this?

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Basic result, -armour is good but not insanely so, endless nightmares is more dps simply because it lacks stam, serrated blades is good dps with stam, its a trade off.
#1646SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Basic result, -armour is good but not insanely so, endless nightmares is more dps simply because it lacks stam, serrated blades is good dps with stam, its a trade off.
also with us being able to lower our hit 21 hit doesn't hurt and you're not hurting your other stats, just losing stamina so the trade off is your preference.
#1647SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Morninglory
Fantastic! I'll grab the both of them.
I wrote wf3sec, and now It is split in 3 - see my Signature.
#1648SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Anghren
Hi guys, I've been lurking around here for quite a while, and I'd first just like to say that this thread is absolutely fantastic, please keep it up!

Recently someone informed me of an apparent anomaly he'd noticed during windfury testing. After looking over his stats, I was at first skeptical, but I recently did some testing of my own and was very surprised at what came up. I wanted to throw this out here in case I missed some detail that is causing my calculation and/or reasoning to go wrong.

The fundamental assumption I'm making is that due to the 3 second built-in cooldown on windfury, you would expect (at least using non-ideal weapons) that you would generate less procs of windfury overall than if this cooldown didn't exist, and therefore you want to minimize the hits you lose from this cooldown to reach the maximum potential proc rate (which according to the tooltip is 20%).

So, assuming the cooldown didn't exist, and you strike 1000 times, you would expect 20% of that to proc windfury hits (200 procs, 400 windfury hits). With the cooldown you would expect less than that amount.

However, recent testing by me and from my friend, is showing something different. What we think we are seeing is that for some reason, when you dual wield 2 weapons, you still end up with a 20% proc rate.

My friend's test saw
1335 hits.
271 procs (20% proc rate)

And my own testing using a [Terokk's Nightmace] and [Mag'hari Fury Brand] showed:
655 White Hits
270 Windfury Hits (135 procs)
= 20% proc rate.

Those weapons are far from ideal, and I was counting (using the excellent WF3sec mod) an average of 3 hits hitting during each windfury cooldown period. The only explanation I have of this anomaly is that somehow the proc rate for my weapons have gone UP as a result of dual wielding so that they are no longer proccing at 20% per hit.

I uploaded the log to WWS, feel free to look it over (I dunno why everyone is listed as a mob, sorry about that. I am doing the attacking, Braelarne is doing the tanking):
Anghren - WWS

I also did a test using a single 3.4 speed weapon just to make sure the proc rate isn't bugged for a single weapon, and I obtained a 20% proc rate there as well.

So my question is, what am I doing wrong? Is the reasoning that you should expect less procs not correct? I am hoping others here may enlighten me as to how this can happen, or simply doing more tests to make sure that it isn't just a sample size issue. I was very resistant to this idea initially, but I can't think of any way of explaining this except that the proc rate changes with 2 weapons.

I hope someone can clear this up, or vindicate the data.

Oh, I should add that my tests were conducted via a duel against a level 70 healing druid, though I believe my friend's test was conducted using normal mobs.

Last edited by Anghren : 08/21/07 at 5:59 AM.
#1649SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
You're making a bad assumption. Just because there's a cooldown doesn't mean that over time the average procs won't work out to be the expected rate. I don't recall where the math for this is hidden but DW has some strange interaction that is actually expected to be about a 36-38% proc rate for WF.
#1650SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Vorda, the math I did on Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I has yet to be proven. Since I don't have access to those weapons (my guild has killed Gruul, but that's it so far) and I don't know of any sim that includes all relevant aspects (e.g. more procs with more haste), everything mentioned in that post is pure number crunching and just a theory.

And by the way, I still wonder if anyone has thoughts on my 1 DPS ~ 12 AP equation. Malan mentioned those 12 AP increasing our damage by 1 DPS in his OP for a while, can't find that passage now, though. Has there been any new information?

Since somebody asked for the math on the Merciless Gladiator's Weapons, here it is. Again, this is just number crunching and not proven:

Originally Posted by drc
[Dragonstrike]: 96 AEP (using the above mentioned values)
[Rising Tide]: ~74 AEP + ~3 DPS more (since 12 AP increase your damage by 1 DPS, that makes 36 AEP extra), total of 110 AEP, 14 AEP more than Dragonstrike
[Syphon of the Nathrezim]: 50 AEP + Proc + ~3 DPS more (36 AEP), total 86 AEP (not including the proc), 10 AEP less than Dragonstrike
[Rod of the Sun King]: 50 AEP + ~1 DPS more (12 AEP), total 62 AEP, 34 AEP less than Dragonstrike
[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]: 82 AEP, 14 AEP less than Dragonstrike (ignoring those .1 DPS Dragonstrike has more)

And once more: This does NOT take higher max damage due to speed differences into account, since I don't know how to value those.
#1651SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Anghren
stuff about wf proc rate
April 17th...

WoW Forums -> WF Proc (same rank MH/OH) is still > 20%

I've done repeated tests, and going through the combatlogs, I was pretty much shocked to see that WF is actually proc'ing on about 34% of eligible hits.
This was back before I thought of EJ as my home board ;-)

Malan, I just checked through the initial post, doing a search for 34%, 35%, or 36%, and didn't see any mention. It might preempt a couple questions if you include something like:

Windfury Proc Rate: When you are wielding a two handed weapon, or are using a sword and shield, your chance to proc windfury on any landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is 20%. When you dual wield weapons, the chance on each landed attack outside the 3-second cooldown is approximatedly 36%.
#1652SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Yah that one slipped by me, I realized this morning we were missing that bit of info. I'll add it now.

@Drc - the 12 AP = 1DPS was proposed by Hedin, it was a result of simplifying the weapon damage formulas once Weapon Mastery was included. I removed it from the OP because it was a confusing issue. People thought it meant that every 12 AP meant their DPS should go up by 1, but the DPS was referring strictly to the weapon's physical damage per second.

Last edited by Malan : 08/21/07 at 10:21 AM.
#1653SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
True, the sim covered percentage of WFs lost due to hidden cooldown with static speeds. Storm strike was added on top of normal swings.
No cross-interactions from items and abilities with ppm, on-use, flat % proc were modeled.
#1654SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Hedin
I wrote wf3sec, and now It is split in 3 - see my Signature.
Great, how do I move the melee frame around?
#1655SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
#1656SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
vorda
Originally Posted by Jelu
There's much talk about the [Dragonstrike] and this is obviously a fantastic Shaman weapon but I'm wondering if that with the haste nerf and the Orc bonus to axes if [Wicked Edge of the Planes] isn't the better weapon for Orc Shaman? I think there was a post about this previously but I can't seem to find it and I don't recall any corroboration to that assertion.
Took me one search in this topic on 'orcs': Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

edit: and following posts. (obviously..)

Last edited by vorda : 08/21/07 at 12:48 PM.
#1657SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strygwyr
Originally Posted by vorda
Took me one search in this topic on 'orcs': Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I Post 1651 states Dragonstike at 98 AEP,


Wicked Edge of the Planes
Binds when picked up
UniqueMain Hand Axe
184 - 343 Damage Speed 2.70

(97.6 damage per second)
Durability 105 / 105
Requires Level 70
Requires Master Axesmith
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 23.
Equip: Increases attack power by 48.


23 CR = 46 AEP
48 AP = 48 AEP

Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
#1658SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Wicked Edge of the Planes can be valued at 94 AEP, add the small benefit from +5 weapon skill, which I am almost sure exceeds 4 AEP, and it is a better weapon for orc shamans.
Afaik, the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)

I wonder how the comparison would be for someone with double mongoose and a dst.

On the other hand, we still dont know almost anything about the new values/effect of weapon skill, right?
#1659SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Normally I would test this myself, but it's maintenance day so I'll ask here instead:

Does FT calculate it's damage based on hasted or unhasted weapon speeds? I'm wondering in anticipation of the 2.3 talent changes.

I see: http://elitistjerks.com/298540-post81.html
Flametongue gets only 10% of spell damage with no modifier for weapon speed.
But that statement was made before people had the access to passive haste that they do now.
#1660SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Morelis
I'd suggest something closer to 2600-2700 ap, 35% crit (to approximate mongoose uptime, or lotp) 15-16% hit (around 100 rating) 8-10% haste (a few items + mongoose). It's been annoying me a bit lately that we keep referring back to baselines that just aren't very representative of good enhancement gear anymore.
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.

Lemme show you some other values:

1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1327.6145
+1% hit: 1328.61462
+1% crit: 1333.174
+50 AP: 1335.03015


1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1370.10718
+1% hit: 1370.75488
+1% crit: 1375.48389
+50 AP: 1377.67334

Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.

Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
#1661SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strygwyr
I havent come accross any extensive research pertaining weapon skill for shamans.
im sure it functions the same as any other class but a specific AEP value for 1 weapon skill for a shaman hasnt been concluded.

As you said "the haste AEP doesnt include factors such as trinkets without internal cooldowns and certain ppm's (like mongoose). (which obviously would be extremely hard)".
If you were to Average the uptime of a Dragonstrike and set it to a "permanent" haste effect, it would equivalent to about 60-70 haste rating, in our terms for valueing gear, thats between 91.2-106.4 AEP.

You claim that there is addition value for haste because it increases procs and and trinkets ithout internal cooldowns, well so does crit due to flurry.
you could be extensive and say that theoritcaly with a 33% crit rate you would be in a constant flurry state due to 1 in every 3 attacks being a crit.

My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
#1662SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
My point is that extensiver theorycrafting and tests have concluded these values for items based on how that stat increases our DPS, AP = 1 AEP, Crit = 2 AEP etc...
to say that the value someone assigned to haste rating on dragonstike is to say our AEP system is wrong, it may very well be wrong, but it is the system 90%~ of this thread is based on. I only find it fit to base these weapons on that same system.
Average AEP system is wrong. The deeper you go into theorycrafting the more you will realise this.
Here are AEP values for Tornhoof example few posts above (2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon):
1 AP = 1
1 Haste rating = 2.675
1 Hit rating = 1.965
1 Crit rating = 2.014

Compare it to the values from first page that people continue to use:
Haste Rating = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
#1663SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.

Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
#1664SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
Yo!, the values are not wrong they're just averages as you said. Being an average doesn't make it wrong. Flipping a coin 10 times produces an average of 5 heads, 5 tails. If you get 2 heads, 8 tails, that does not make the average wrong.

Tornhoof's values from a few posts ago was for a different model, he was modeling values in BT gear. The values on the front page were modeled from SSC/TK/KZ gear levels.
The example with coins is wrong. You will not get average AEP values for the stat combo that Tornhoof posted no matter how many times you will flip a coin. SSC/TK/KZ gear levels is too wide, inside of that gear levels local AEP values are significantly different from average for most stat combos. For explanation and data proof refer to my previous posts.

Here is what should be written on first page instead of average AEP values:

"AEP is system that compares stats by assigning value to each stat that shows how much DPS will increase by increasing your stat by 1. Please notice that AEP values are not stable and may vary a lot from one stat combination to another . To get AEP values for your current/desired gear - use sim. Here is a list of stat combos with their corresponding AEP values:
Tier 4 -
Tier 5 -
Tier 6 -
Crafted with haste -
etc...
AEP system's use is further limited by non-linear cross-dependance of stats. If you to make a choice between 2 gear upgrades that benefit several stats the one better in-game may be different from the one suggested by AEP. For better grounded choice - use sim. Using average AEP values is no better than using built-in-game AEP system called "item level". "
#1665SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
that information is incorrect, it is based on Weapon skill value pre-nerf, if you read a little further down the thread that is linked in post you linked to.
The question at hand still remains, for an orc Shaman, would Dragonstrike or Wicked Edge of Planes be better? this question was not valid pre-haste nerf due to dragonstrike being much better, it is a valid question now though.
No, unless you will do the testing and prove the blue wrong, i will take his word on it seeing as noone else can provide some info on it.
I value axes at around 30AEP atleast, so i'd take Wicked Edge over Dragonstrike any time.
#1666SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Afaik the +haste value was pre 2.1 too (not sure though)
#1667SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
To quote you, It's been annoying me a bit lately, that apparently people don't understand/read the previous pages of this thread. Asking for higher attack power won't change the factors much, since AP is comparison wise always the best attribute, since it is a fairly linear dps increase.

Lemme show you some other values:

1318.10645 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 15% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1327.6145
+1% hit: 1328.61462
+1% crit: 1333.174
+50 AP: 1335.03015


1360.20471 = 2500 ap, 35% crit, 19% hit, 10% haste, dw syphon
+1% haste: 1370.10718
+1% hit: 1370.75488
+1% crit: 1375.48389
+50 AP: 1377.67334

Obviously the values increase a bit (which is expected, since they influence values which are multplicative factors to the dps), obviously 15% +hit is not the ideal hit value, 19% +hit is closer to the ideal +hit value.

Strength with BoK is still the superior attribute, +crit following shortly behind and haste/hit having fairly identical values.
Wouldn't it make more sense to use an equal amount of item budget as the increasing factor? As it stands there you have them lined up in the order of how much you spent on the difference, which really isn't very meaningful. By the way I wasn't suggesting that just AP be increased, I was suggesting that the baseline stats be modified to match what a shaman in T6ish gear will have, I'm sure you can see the relevance of that. Also, plugging the updated stats into Pater's sim does produce changes worth noting, if your model doesn't then we can assume one of them has gone astray.
#1668SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Aurvandil
2 Questions

1. I'm an enchanter and I almost have access to the +4 stats to ring, would that be better to use than +2 weapon damage?

-I figure the +4 stats is worth 4 agi * 2 + 4 str * 2.2 = 16.8 AEP, but also gives the modest benifit of the other stats being boosted

-obviously the +2 weapon damage will depend on your weapon speed. I use 2 2.6 speed, but when you count in dual mongoose, dragonspine, and 73 passive haste(6.94%) the speed becomes much lower. With just flurry and passive haste my weapon speed is 1.84

-it appears that on the character sheet it shows the +2 weapon damage being applied to both hands, and isn't affected by the offhand penalty.

-given the above, +2 weapon damage should be +2 weapon damage * 2 weapons / 1.87 speed = 2.139 dps

+2 weapon damage > +4 stats

2. WorldofRaids says that on the PTR haste for melee has changed from 10.5 haste rating per 1% to 15.7 haste rating per 1%. What would be the new AEP value of haste?
-On my pawn string I had haste rated at 2
-I noticed the link in this thread rating it at 2.22
-so the new rating would be (10.5 / 15.7) * old rating right? so 1.48 if its rated at 2.22, 1.33 with my rating of 2(though I'm probably going to change that.

can someone check my math on this? am I calculating #1 and #2 correctly?

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/21/07 at 5:10 PM.
#1669SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Yo already rewrote my DPS values into AEP, I prefer DPS values over AEP because you can convert them to whatever equivalency model you like and especially compare them to other results from other models.

My model probably overrates +haste a bit.
#1670SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Aurvandil
fine

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/22/07 at 2:07 AM.
#1671SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Aurvandil
Oh yeah I have a 3rd question, at blizzcon...
Edit: I'm an asshole.. Sorry.
#1672SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Aurvandil
Another benifit of the 1 second off your shock cooldown is that you should never run(not counting lag) run into the problem of having both your shock cooldown and stormstrike cooldown up at the same time.(currently when this happens, we stormstrike which triggers the gcd and wastes 1.5 seconds of our shock timer), but technicly if the shocks were on a 5 second cooldown it should never overlap?

They will overlap more often of course
#1673SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yo, if you provide the values for some reasonable AEP steps, I'll gladly put them in a table on the first post. I'm hesitant to label them as "T4, T5, T6" etc, as that puts arbitrary limits on gear to an unexperienced shaman reading the values. (ie, they might discard huge upgrades from lower lvl zones because its not in their "tier") I think a more reasonable way of doing it is describing it in reasonable steps of AP/Crit/Hit. So a lvl 70 entry-level shaman would have X AP, a mid-level shaman would have X+A AP, and a high-level shaman would have X+B AP, etc etc.

To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
#1674SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Malan
To throw some random numbers out there, we might as an example say that an entry lvl should have 1000 AP, 20% Crit, 12% Hit, a mid level might have 2000 AP, 26% Crit, 17% Hit, so on and so forth.
Assuming, but should be stated, these would be Buffed Values?
#1675SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
I'd say, without hard numbers to back it up, going for elemental shock talents is probably worth it until about halfway through SSC in progression. At that point your melee damage will be scaling fairly rapidly. You also get far more benefits from things like increased totem range and quicker ankhs around that point with larger/longer fights.

The elemental talents are good, but currently do not scale at all with gear. So after a certain point, your elemental damage won't be scaling along with the extra damage the 3% hit gives you.
#1676SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Iol
Assuming, but should be stated, these would be Buffed Values?
Yah of course, I think talking about anything outside raids is silly. We're not discussing solo play in here.
#1677SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Hulkling
Yo, FFS either give an alternative or stop posting. WE KNOW AEP ISN'T 100% ACCURATE. Anyone with half a brain isnt going to take it as gospel, simply a good model.

Edit: Please re-read the post as well, especially regarding your trinkets. You are arguing the validity of AEP set at the Kara level which you're not completely at yet. All I know is that I went for +hit off the bat, thought that shamans just had mediocre damage, took this thread's advice and now sit between 3-6th on our meters consistently. Stop trying to discredit good advice just because you dont want to take it.

Last edited by Hulkling : 08/21/07 at 7:58 PM.
#1678SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Yo!
Using average AEP values is no better than using built-in-game AEP system called "item level". "
Personally I find that simply using item level is way worse then using AEP.

Item level is based on all stats on the item aswell as the slot and quality. There are plenty of gear getting a high item level but with some stats that you might not care very much for. Spirit for example has the same "cost" as strength. AEP is atleast only taking into account the stats you feed it, thus ignoring things like spirit. [Helm of Narv] springs to mind, wich I never felt like buying when I leveled and ran with a lower level blue item in the head slot. AEP would've rated my piece higher then the Helm just as I did.

When I rewrote ShammySpy into Enhancer what I did as a compliment to AEP was adding in lack of a better name [Enhancement ItemLevel] to tooltips as well that is a calculation of an item level of sorts with the stat modifiers/"costs" from WoWWiki. However I ignore modifiers for things like the slot and quality, since when comparing rings the slot modifier is the same anyway and quality modifier is just a way of craming more stats onto an item while keeping it usable in lower levels.

Only caring about stats I want to use and ignoring others it gives me a relative number that I can use to get an idea of how many itemization points was spent into my favorite stats. Enhancer isn't 100% complete but a work in development and I'm still working on including stuff that are [Use: ...] [Chance on ...: ...] though.
#1679SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Yo! has valid points that's he's brought up, lets not get harsh about it. I don't necessarily agree with some of his solutions, but he's got a valid point that we should establish several AEP baselines to work off of.

Last edited by Malan : 08/22/07 at 9:02 AM. Reason: typo
#1680SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Hulkling
Yo, FFS either give an alternative or stop posting. WE KNOW AEP ISN'T 100% ACCURATE. Anyone with half a brain isnt going to take it as gospel, simply a good model.

Edit: Please re-read the post as well, especially regarding your trinkets. You are arguing the validity of AEP set at the Kara level which you're not completely at yet. All I know is that I went for +hit off the bat, thought that shamans just had mediocre damage, took this thread's advice and now sit between 3-6th on our meters consistently. Stop trying to discredit good advice just because you dont want to take it.
The alternative was available here long time ago. It is called sim aka simulation aka math model aka Monte Carlo method. If you are too lasy to use it instead of AEP use AEP but do not advise it to newcomers. The feedback showed that many did not understand how non adequate it was while many felt it was bad but had no prove and many understood it naturally. You, as an example - still think that it is a good model.

Tristan:

Thank you for the polite post. AEP as a measurement of how much of budget is allocated to useful stats is good.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 10:10 PM.
#1681SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Oh Malan, just noticed on the first post:

------------------------------

But 2200 AP is a *lot*, how can I achieve that?
Well lets take a look at buffs.

* MotW (w/o Talent) - 28 AP
* Strength of Earth (w/ Talent) - 200 AP
* Blessing of Might (w/o Talent) - 220 AP
* Battleshout - 305 AP (w/o Talent)
* Strength Food - 40 AP
* Elixirs/Flasks - 110 AEP (Agility elixir) or 120 AP (Relentless Assault)

2200 - 28 - 200 - 22 - 305 - 40 - 110 = 1297 AP that you would need on gear, and this isn't even accounting for unleashed rage!

------------------------------

The agility elixir shouldn't be there, as it's about getting to 2200 AP not 2200 AEP. Should be fel strength elixir instead I think.
#1682SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Aurvandil
personally I found quicker ankhs pretty useless. Tank aggro generation seems pretty good at this point, and if I pull aggro I have the potential of screwing over the raid(ie everyone getting seethed on reliquary of souls phase 3, or X random aoe in the healers general direction, or healers using their mana/time rebuffing me). Really I think battle ankhing in most cases does more harm than the good of being able to wipe threat.

Last edited by Aurvandil : 08/22/07 at 2:23 AM.
#1683SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
The agility elixir shouldn't be there, as it's about getting to 2200 AP not 2200 AEP. Should be fel strength elixir instead I think.
I removed the agility reference and just left it as the flask.
#1684SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Is the goal of AEP to provide a convenient mechanism with which to compare gear, enchants and procs quickly, or to mathematically predict DPS?

I always assumed it was the former, and for my gear level (half T4) it's yet to steer me wrong, suggesting a piece of gear was better only to bring my dps down.

Nothing's ever going to be perfect. The goal here is back-of-the-matchbook calculations, so we don't need to run a sim for every gear decision, especially with the loot window up, deciding whether to spend valuable DKP on something that may or may not be worth it. AEP fills that role nicely -- at least until somebody writes an accurate, efficient gear simulator in Lua and turns it into a mod.

(Yes, that's an invitation.)

Quick side note: have you guys checked to see that the random number generators your sims have the same distribution as the ones used by Blizzard?
#1685SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Quick side note: have you guys checked to see that the random number generators your sims have the same distribution as the ones used by Blizzard?
AEP was originally a method to compare gear, but as damage modelling evolved it reached its limits fairly quickly, especially for melee, due to the complex models.

You can not use the simulation models in lua, they would run forever, you can just use the closed form expressions, which are valid up to around +/- 5%, atleast my model is valid with that error range. Anyway with the closed form expression, an item producing higher dps will be better for your current equipment, but might perform worse when you upgrade another item. It is not really possible to compare updates for your equipment by comparing single items (atleast not for small updates for the medium level gear). The only valid method imho is to compare your current gear to a certain target gear, which is better by a certain degree, let's say 5% (see error margin above) and collect equipment up to that target gear and simply try if one single item is better than another item.
For high end gear the difference is more obvious, because the impact of upgrades increases and usually the ilvl difference is larger.

There is simply no way knowing if an item with the same ilvl with the same amount of useful stats (not necessarily aep) is better than another item. You should always consider multiple upgrades at the same time, e.g. it might be preferable to lose one percent of crit and gain one percent of +hit, if your next upgrade will replace some old, bad item with much +hit by some new shiny +crit item. (trinkets for example).

Example:
You're gear evaluates to 1300 DPS with my equipoptimizer.
Let's assume you reach 85% of that value ingame (non optimal positioning etc.)
You select 5 new items and it evaluates to 1400 DPS.
Even though each new item should get you on average 15 (ingame) more DPS, the actua result ingame might vary and the increase might be less or a bit more.
But as soon as you have more items of your targeted equipment you will see the changes.

Obviously for this method you actually need to do some homework before you go raiding, and do some planning for your equipment, if you don't like planning and homework, go use the AEP values provided in this thread, they will do just fine for you.
Personally I would never upgrade my equipment with previous planning, just because melee dmg is no linear function of a few independent attributes.

On a side note: pseudo random number generates have an even distribution, you actually want each number to have a probability of 1/p.
#1686SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kalince
Originally Posted by Aurvandil
personally I found quicker ankhs pretty useless. Tank aggro generation seems pretty good at this point, and if I pull aggro I have the potential of screwing over the raid(ie everyone getting seethed on reliquary of souls phase 3, or X random aoe in the healers general direction, or healers using their mana/time rebuffing me). Really I think battle ankhing in most cases does more harm than the good of being able to wipe threat.
You don't just die to pulling aggro. No one is perfect and it is very nice to have a healthy base of mana and health after ankhing because of some boneheaded thing you did.
#1687SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Yo!: Atleast it shows wich item gives the bigger bang for the buck so to speak. Where you get most itemization points spent into the stats you want.

Of course as with any way of item valuation it leaves you to maintain a healthy ratio between all them stats yourself .
#1688SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Not that it can't be changed but it's in the patchnotes for PTR now.
  • Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.
Source: WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes
#1689SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Avair
Originally Posted by Yo!
If you are too lasy to use it instead of AEP use AEP but do not advise it to newcomers.
Yo!, what you are suggesting flies in the face of time tested teaching methods. Simplified models like AEP are exactly what new players need to start with.

Ever heard of the crawl, walk, run philosophy for learning? When you teach new students a subject/concept/skill, you start with extremely simplified examples and models, so that the student get their head around the basics. Once they master those, then you can move on to more complex concepts. It's not only pointless, but counterproductive to explain to a brand new player all the exceptions about what stat is better at what particular gear level. You are just going to confuse them, and they will learn nothing.

When a fresh faced 70 comes to this forum, they have a very simple question in mind. Is piece of Gear A or B better? You could point them to a simulation, which might answer their question, if (a big if) they could figure it out. And they won't have a clue how it arrived at the answer.

Or you could tell them:
1 Str = 2 AEP
1 AP = 1 AEP
1 Crit = 2 AEP
...

Then they can answer their own questions.
#1690SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I like the idea of having maybe 3 sets of AEP based on reasonable levels of stats. I would do this myself but Pater's sim is the only one I can use, (and only at home, some of the calls your sim makes are incompatible on ubuntu at work) but my time to do this stuff is pretty limited in the evenings. I run OSX at home so I can't use Tornhoof or Disquette's sims.

So we need 2 things from some guys who have some time on their hands:
  • 3 sets of raid buffed AP/Crit %/Hit Rating/Haste Rating averages that estimate the amounts an enhance shaman would have for: Just starting KZ, Entry level SSC/TK after farming KZ/Mag/Gruul, and entry level BT/Hyjal after farming SSC/TK.
  • The expected AEP from simulator runs for each of those 3 sets

Please consider this an official request for help from the community to provide these things.
#1691SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Maikel
Originally Posted by Malan

So we need 2 things from some guys who have some time on their hands:
  • 3 sets of raid buffed AP/Crit %/Hit Rating/Haste Rating averages that estimate the amounts an enhance shaman would have for: Just starting KZ, Entry level SSC/TK after farming KZ/Mag/Gruul, and entry level BT/Hyjal after farming SSC/TK.
  • The expected AEP from simulator runs for each of those 3 sets
i'm interested in seeing the values from the "just starting kz" area since a lot of this thread seems to be people who have been raiding for quite some time, and are all pretty well geared. and although i'm not thankful for these values knowing to what's possible down the road, i am hoping to get some good information to consider the validity of an enhancement shaman in raiding just starting out in KZ. maybe even gear that is outside of KZ?

right now they're pretty anti-ret paladins and anti-enhance shamans since they don't think they can bring anything to the raid. it boggles my mind as to why they reason this, but i'm hoping with enough information and experience backing me up i might sway them one way or the other.

this is my first post and i read the disclaimer i swear! ::closes eyes and waits for endless taunts::
#1692SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
it seems to me that it is quite obvious that the DPS function is a multiplicative one in the cobb-douglas format (Cobb-Douglas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and that deviations from the set that maximizes dps lead to situations where you will disproportionately more points in one stat to make up for losses in another (in relation to item budget...).

As someone trained in stats, I am in favor of going the opposite route and estimating these things empirically first, instead of theoretically. There is an addon that measures the mobs's armor, and there is hedin's addon that measures and reports a number of melee stats. If we could combine both addons and make it so that they generate reports of the average value (and resulting dps) of each stat say, every 30 seconds, I could get that data and easily create a non linear model that specifies for a given level of gear what the optimal set up is.
#1693SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
I am in favor of going the opposite route and estimating these things empirically first, instead of theoretically.
Tell you what, you farm the gear needed to do this and find sufficient mobs to test it on and let us know how it works out.
#1694SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Tell you what, you farm the gear needed to do this and find sufficient mobs to test it on and let us know how it works out.
you dont need to do that.

all you have to do is get AP, crit, hit, haste, mob armor and dps values for a number of time periods and you can get the non linear coefficient for each stat. And then with some simple math it is easy to achieve the maximizing point. Economics 101, but with ap/crit/hit as inputs and dps as outputs.

edit: and getting an addon to report those things should be quite easy, as the addons that measure them are already out there. there is one that estimates the mobs armor and another that will show you your dps, ap, crit, hit, haste...
#1695SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Avair
I am in favor of going the opposite route and estimating these things empirically first, instead of theoretically
all you have to do is get AP, crit, hit, haste, mob armor and dps values for a number of time periods and you can get the non linear coefficient for each stat. And then with some simple math it is easy to achieve the maximizing point.
Huh what? We are going to empirically test this by doing math theorycrafting? Last dictionary I checked, empirical means testing by experiment and observation.
#1696SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Guestimates:
Kara 1300/75Hit/20%Crit/0% Haste
SSC/TK 1400/120Hit/24%Crit/0%Haste
BT/Hyjal 1500/150Hit/26%Crit/5% Haste
BT/Hyjal endgame 1700/200Hit/30%Crit/10%Haste

I would say those are roughly what i had and what I am aiming for. Although in Kara gear I had close to 200 Hit and only 1100AP at the time.

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Tell you what, you farm the gear needed to do this and find sufficient mobs to test it on and let us know how it works out.
Originally Posted by Diogo
you dont need to do that.

all you have to do is get AP, crit, hit, haste, mob armor and dps values for a number of time periods and you can get the non linear coefficient for each stat. And then with some simple math it is easy to achieve the maximizing point. Economics 101, but with ap/crit/hit as inputs and dps as outputs.

edit: and getting an addon to report those things should be quite easy, as the addons that measure them are already out there. there is one that estimates the mobs armor and another that will show you your dps, ap, crit, hit, haste...
Interesting contradiction
#1697SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Did you start those numbers as raid buffed and end them as not raid buffed or something?
1300 AP walking into KZ and 1700 in BT? I have almost 2400 buffed in SSC, so I'd assume the BT number is unbuffed, but 1300 in blue gear doesn't match up with what I recall having at that level.
#1698SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
It wasn't too long ago that I was walking around in all blues and greens, maybe one epic (pre-Kara style gear), and I had about 1200 AP, 23% crit, and 100 hit. Now I'm in partial epics (from Kara), some blues, and I've got 1434 AP, 25.5% crit, and 136 hit (17.43% hit after talents). I'd say my gear is a pretty good representation of good Kara-level gear.

Last edited by Xoya : 08/22/07 at 12:14 PM.
#1699SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Ok, I may have been underestimating myself, I thought I was closer to like 1000 AP, but maybe that was before running 70 instances.

Xoya can you update your profile? The armory isn't showing a character by that name.
#1700SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
Yeah, I think if we wanted to be thorough we could even include a pre-heroics level, to help people recognize that things like Midnight Legguards are superior to, say, Desolation Leggings or whatever they're called.

Edit: and sorry about that, profile is fully updated. I guess when I transfered servers I updated the server but not the character name.

Last edited by Xoya : 08/22/07 at 4:19 PM.
#1036SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Hedin
It's realy helpfull to have SS cooldown next to WF cooldown when you DPS in raids and I love It more and more...
It's all about playstyle. Personally I have all my cooldown-abilities on a bar (SS, Trinkets, SR, BL etc) with a cooldowncounter addon. I liked your addon due to the WF cooldown bar, most of the other things just cludder up my screen, and in the version I was using (at work for two weeks now) I couldnt move the buff bars in-game which was annoying. As Malan says, the other things are most likely covered by some other addon that's already in the game.

Let's get back on the topic of the thread though. Has anyone checked the 12.5AP = 1DPS by swapping out something with 6str or 12 AP to see the ~1DPS difference, (I'm at work as stated, can't check myself, sadly) or is this just speculation? Shouldn't it be easy to verify this, or am I missing something?

That weapon skill topic confuses the hell out of me. Meh.
#1037SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Hedin the Stormstrike cooldown bar is triggering whenever I cast Water Shield.
#1038SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
That weapon skill topic confuses the hell out of me. Meh.
Well cause it did bothers me a lot too.
I did read thru that rogue/warrior weapon skill thread, which is why it bothers me a lot esp when i'm a tauren shaman with only 350 weapon skill instead of an orc shaman who has innately better weapon skill on axe.

That belt i mentioned before, will increase mace weapon skill by ard 6.3 point, which will put you as if you are attacking a level 72 mob if it's a boss, resulting in a huge boost on dps as it is the first 5 point of weapon skill. And as far as i know that first 5 weapon skill point really worth a lot. But when we are trying to factor in that first 5 point, how would each point worth compare to AP/crit/Str etc?

And if it really improve the hit rate just like rogue/war, i would see that this belt from vashj is even better than boneweaver girdle.
Just my thought, still pushing my guild at morogrim then vashj thou :S
#1039SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan
Hedin the Stormstrike cooldown bar is triggering whenever I cast Water Shield.
Yep, it's because of the Global Cooldown (1.5 sec) after each spellcast :-)
#1040SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gulvan
I dont want this to seem like a "hey im new tell me what i should do post", but after reading the theory craft I am really interested in the syphon. I would have been able to pick it up when it dropped for us, but I thought that it wouldnt be a good replacement for rising tide or my dragonstrike. However if it drops again, im going to grab it and do some tests on it as a OH and MH.

Also, I have a armor penetration neck. I used to have the pendent of the perliess, but i have seen my dps increase with the new neck on some hits it has increase by 50-150 dmg. Now I dont know what the other raid factors where like sunders expose etc. But I have seen my dps increase overtime by a noticeable margin. Just like to share my experience(sorry no raw numbers).
#1041SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Gorlek
There is some amazing new info for Enhancement straight from Blizzcon (I almost wet my pants when reading these!!!). Note that none of this is official, so don't take it to the bank, just yet.



1. Two-handed weapons appears to be trainable, and its old talent slot has been replaced by:

"Shamanistic Focus (one point)
After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a focused state. The focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%."

DSC00104.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

DSC00112.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



2. Mental Quickness has been changed to read

"Reduces the mana cost of your next instant cast spell by 6% and increases your spell damage and healing by an amount equal to 30% of your attack power."

DSC00106.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



3. Spirit weapons now reduces threat by 20%, up from 15%.

Screenshot was too blurry on this one.



4. For you PvP Shaman, I saved the best for last:

"Shamanistic Rage (1 point)

Reduces all damage taken by 30% and gives your successful melee attacks a chance to generate mana equal to 15% of your attack power. Lasts 30 secs."

DSC00105.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting








If all this is true and is coming soon, I am extremely excited to see the outcomes!!!! A fully raid-buffed enhancement Shaman should see anywhere from 600-1000 +dmg, making those previously non-scaling shocks hit significantly harder (and they will be much cheaper, to boot!!!)


For the pvp scene (and in many, many raid scenarios), the change to Shamanistic Rage will be pure awesome insanity, much like Rogues popping Evasion and Cloak of Shadows.



With all the added spell damage, we could be looking at a total change to Enhancement raiding mechanics. Where dual WF slow/slow was king, Flametongue and Frostbrand might be making an exciting comeback, allowing us to not be pigeonholed into extremely slow weapon choices!!! Healing stream and searing totem will also be much more powerful, perhaps making many of us switch over to Elemental for our off-talents for the extra shock and fire totem ownage.

Last edited by Gorlek : 08/04/07 at 6:20 AM. Reason: Needed to tidy things up a bit
#1042SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Wow. I didn't expect anything close to those changes.
#1043SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
I want them!!! I want them NOW, not in the middle of the Winter :-(
Rage buff was expected, but we still don't have a CC or antiCC...

WF3sec update:
- MeleeFrame and MeleeBuffs deleted
- Added Shocks and Rage cooldown timers
- You can now toggle all cooldowns by /wf3sec cmd.
#1044SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Capital
With grounding totem and eartshock I'd say we are the kings of anti-cc. Not to mention we kite better than any hunter.
#1045SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Well those changes are definitely interesting looking. Shows some promise.

I'd be interested to see how much it effects Frostbrand and Flametongue and if its enough for us to start using it over Windfury. For some reason I doubt it.
#1046SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Capital
With grounding totem and eartshock I'd say we are the kings of anti-cc.
Say that to rogues :-)
#1047SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xaro
Originally Posted by Teirz
But when we are trying to factor in that first 5 point, how would each point worth compare to AP/crit/Str etc?
Here is something from my guild forums.

So in terms of reducing the miss chance, this is how much HR and WSR is needed to achieve the same result in relation to each other.

Weapon Skill <='+5'
3.9 WSR = 9.48 HR

Weapon Skill >'+5'
3.9 WSR = 1.58 HR

If you consider dodges just as bad as misses then it would come down to.

Weapon Skill <='+5'
3.9 WSR = 10.744 HR

Weapon Skill >'+5'
3.9 WSR = 2.844 HR

Now you should also consider that WSR also increases your critical strike chance and reduces the parry rate. Giving WSR even more value then I have written so far.
I know it doesn't quite answer your question entirely and I can't really vouch for how accurate this is either. But, I believe it to be good information anyway.
#1048SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Wow those changes are amazing. o.O
By just swapping weapon an enh shaman can get to 1.2k healing with that buff!

Thanks Xaro for the info, which is quite align with my thoughts .
And yes i would consider dodged is as bad as miss. As it doesn't only affect your white dps, WF can also be dodged and parried etc. By raising your weapon skill, each AP will worth even more value compare to other stats.

Hope that i can get the belt soon and test it out.
#1049SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Wow. I didn't expect anything close to those changes.
My thoughts exactly.
#1050SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
It will be very interesting to see if flametongue is now a viable offhand enchant. maybe I'll update the mod.

I would use flameshock on crits, but never earth shock (still need to provide the earthstrike bonus to the elemental shammies). However, in pvp, the reduced mana and up'd dps from shocks will be really nice.

Shamanistic rage... I'm not sure about when you'd use it? Maybe during an earthquake from doomwalker, aoe dmg mobs, or other predictable damage source?

I'm very happy with these updates, but i'd love them now instead of later. Perhaps I should have grabbed a karazan dagger :-)
#1751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
xereva
I'm just starting kara (and am not visiting it that often, since i'm more a casual player), but my unbuffed stats are now (and only using one kara item, [Big Bad Wolf's Paw]):
1248 AP
218 hit rating
26.15% crit

I think i don't have very much pre-kara upgrades available, maybe a few heroic items and something like the trinket buyable by badges... (or pvp gear, but not pvp-ing)

Oh, and even while not really raiding, i really love this thread. It's helping me a lot! Helps me to decide which item i want to upgrade, and how to maximize dps.

Last edited by xereva : 08/23/07 at 3:26 AM.
#1752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Aikillju
Flametongue and Frostbrand

Just curious, but has there been any discussion about using flametongue or frostbrand in the offhand over windfury after 2.3?

I'd imagine since they're adding a talent to increase spell damage by 30% of our Attack Power that those two imbues might have some sort of potential for enhancement? I'm not sure myself since i don't know the numbers behind how the enchants would scale and match up with the spell damage we would have, and of course compare to windfury imbued on the OH.

So, anyone looked into it?

Last edited by Aikillju : 08/23/07 at 3:51 AM. Reason: Fixed a spelling mistake
#1753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Please search the thread before posting your questions. What you are asking has been discussed semi-recently.
#1754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aikillju
Ah, my mistake ... will do
#1755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Aurvandil
I think the BT/Hyjal endgame values are unattainable, but the rest look close. A lot of the gain in stats has been due to procs. IE dragonspine, ashtongue, and eventually hyjal melee ring.

Off the top of my head rounded up to 50 ap/1% crit,hit,haste

->Kara I had 1250 ap/200 hit/22% crit/0% haste
->SSC/TK 1400 ap/200 hit/25% crit/0% haste and dragonspine trophy
->Now I have 1500 ap/ 200 hit/ 29% crit/7% haste and dragonspine + ashtonge trinket procs
->If I got everything I wanted right now 1600 ap/180 hit/30% crit/10% haste and dragonspine + ashtonge + hyjal exalted ring procs
Unbuffed im sat at 1622/161/~30%/5.90% Haste

If I was to get the items i'm after, I would sacrifice all the haste items (pending nerf) in favour of the increased stats on other items. I did not consider the haste when I wrote the values you quoted.

Choker of Endless Nightmares - Items - World of Warcraft
Stormrage Signet Ring - Items - World of Warcraft
Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft
Madness of the Betrayer - Items - World of Warcraft

I think this would give me a gain of 80AP, 61Hit, 18 Crit and I would lose 5.9% Haste.

1702/222/31%Crit, In the next patch the haste I would lose is actually only ~4%

Probably a couple of mistakes in there, but I dont have time to check it right now.

Last edited by Stigmata : 08/23/07 at 4:50 AM.
#1756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by panny
Doesn't that kind of suggest that +hit would be undervalued by your sim then?
Well no, apparently you don't miss the blastend lands mobs with around 15-16% hit anymore, so the value of +hit can not be evaluated on these mobs. On the other hand, since you usually attack from the front, the attacktable gets parry, which isn't handled in my model at all. Since I still get parries once in awhile, these aren't fully mitigated (if at all) by weaponskill, my crit chance does not increase much (if at all), dodge gets reduced.
I think parry&dodge combined are around 5% for this mob, so with my original 19% +hit gear i still miss 5% of my swings (ignoring the parry speedup). This is atleast 5% less than against a lvl 73 mob from behind (5% miss from dw atleast + 5% from dodge).

I think it should be higher than 5% on the blasted lands mobs tbh, but they might have more armor than a sundered boss mob.

For real boss mob action, I would always remove another 10-15% from the output of my model (besides the 15% armor already accounted for) to cover for totem twisting, movement etc. That does not affect attribute comparisons with AEP or similar methods though.
#1757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Usernaem
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Please search the thread before posting your questions. What you are asking has been discussed semi-recently.

Or you could flat out just tell him the answer he's looking for.
#1758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Usernaem
Or you could flat out just tell him the answer he's looking for.

If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked recently has been answered in this post. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.
and from the forum rules for you:
Don't troll. - If all you're doing is trying to irk someone's taters, you're going to get banned lickety split. Trust me.
Infraction for Usernaem: Useless Post

edit: has anyone checked if the ashtongue trinket is still working the same on PTR as it does on live now?
#1759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tristan
Originally Posted by Rob
Yep. Well, kind of. We know that the values are raised to the power of 1.5 when calculating item level. So using that theory we could say 20 STR would be 2^1.5 = 2.8 times as valuable as 10 STR. We know that's not the case, so we should be careful in using this information to determine values for items or stats. These figures are what Blizzard thinks the relative values of these stats should be across all classes, but not what they actually are across any one specific class/spec combination.
The formula is according to Formulas:Item Values - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki that you say are confirmed by blizz:
Values are multiplied by the stat mod and taken to the 1.5 power.
These new values are summed up and taken to the (2/3) power.

ItemValue = [(StatValue[1]*StatMod[1])^1.5 + (StatValue[2]*StatMod[2])^1.5 + ...]^1/1.5

Lua code you can execute and test
local STR = { value = 10, mod = 1 };
print( math.pow(math.pow((STR.value*STR.mod), 1.5), (2/3)) ); -- 10
STR.value = 20;
print( math.pow(math.pow((STR.value*STR.mod), 1.5), (2/3)) ); -- 20
Edit: Removed C# escape codes and replaced them with lua escape codes, soz

Last edited by Tristan : 08/23/07 at 8:09 AM.
#1760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tonkan
TK/SSC/BT gear

Originally Posted by Stigmata
Guestimates:
Kara 1300/75Hit/20%Crit/0% Haste
SSC/TK 1400/120Hit/24%Crit/0%Haste
BT/Hyjal 1500/150Hit/26%Crit/5% Haste
BT/Hyjal endgame 1700/200Hit/30%Crit/10%Haste


I find the values for entry level BT/Hyjal to be kinda low actually, for unbuffed stats.
My guild have 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and I'm already at 1520AP, 29.16% Crit and 223 Hit rating. And I still have some uppgrades to get from those instances aswell :P

So my estimates for BT/Hyjal entry would be like 1600/30/200, or something similiar, but without the haste.

Oh, and this is a really informative thread, so please, continue with all the good work, so that everyone that doesent have your impressive skills in math / programming can atleast get a little more understanding on how everything works.
#1761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Blah. We're at the point that I can only remove text from the OP in order to add new stuff. =\
#1762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Tonkan
I find the values for entry level BT/Hyjal to be kinda low actually, for unbuffed stats.
My guild have 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK, and I'm already at 1520AP, 29.16% Crit and 223 Hit rating. And I still have some uppgrades to get from those instances aswell :P

So my estimates for BT/Hyjal entry would be like 1600/30/200, or something similiar, but without the haste.

Oh, and this is a really informative thread, so please, continue with all the good work, so that everyone that doesent have your impressive skills in math / programming can atleast get a little more understanding on how everything works.

Like I said, they were guesses from memory of roughly what I had.

I also never picked up any T5, you have all the items from SSC/TK I never got, baring in mind we did so few clears (I think I have been to 3 Kaelthas kills and missed maybe 2 or 3) before entering BT/Hyjal. And you mention you have no haste, but haste is high on the item budget, so 5% haste would decrease your other stats by a considerable amount.

One other thing to note, you have very low HP, when I was at your level I valued stam quite high, and rightfully so in my opinion.

Even fully raid buffed you have what, about 8.5-9.0k?

On our first venture into BT i had 10.4k which is very useful for Najentus amongst other things.

Originally Posted by Malan
Blah. We're at the point that I can only remove text from the OP in order to add new stuff. =\
Like I suggested earlier in this thread, ask one of the mods to add a single post directly below the first or create a new topic then get them to merge the post in there.

Its definitely possible in some forums so I cant see why it wouldn't be in this one.
#1763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Yah I'll ask Boe about it. The Wiki is going to be a bit slower of a project than I initially expected, I had been holding off to see if I could just convert this into a full article.

We've added over 20 pages of discussion in the last 2 weeks, this is getting hard to find things. I wish this forum had a 'tag' mechanism so I could tag posts that I needed to reference later.
#1764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I often think that when someone asks a question and is refered to read somewhere between page 50-65, sucks to be so vague.
#1765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've turned on the GoogleNotebook firefox plugin in the meantime and I'm going to start collecting important posts in it. Then I can whip it out when someone says something stupid.
#1766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gremm
Hi,

I don't know if this thread is still alive and under discussion but I think the following is wrong:

MainHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%
MainHand WF
(<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110%*140%

OffHand Damage
(<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2*110%
OffHand WF 2.1 patch
((<Weapon Damage>+AP/14*<Weapon Speed>)/2+(WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>))*110%*140%
Correct me if I am wrong but I think the 140% comes from the WindFury 20% proc statistics: in average, we need 5 strikes to proc the WF which gives 2 free additional strikes, so by average its (5 + 2)/5 = 1.4 = 140%

This is correct for the average number of strike but not for the damage calculation. Indeed only the two addtional stikes benefit from the WF attack power bonus. So the correct formula should be :

MainHand WF =
MainHand Damage + (<Weapon Damage>+(AP+WFAP+<Totem of the Astral Winds>)/14*<Weapon Speed>)*110% *40%

The same goes for the off hand
#1767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
berg
Nope. Contratry to what you would expect the improved wf talent in the enhance tree improves the overall damage of wf swings by 40%, not the AP contribution.

This is why you will notice that your maximum wf crit is far in excess of your maximum white crit, much more than the AP could provide. I wf crit one of those little channeler guys on akama last night for 3180 and I had an agi pot, not an ap flask. Such a number is nowhere near attainable without that 40% modifier.


I am sure this talent is a bug. I mean wf is roughly 35% of my damage on most bosses so those 3 talent points are each worth almost 5% of my overall dps which is far too powerful.

Just like dual windfury procing ~35% is doubtlessly a bug.

The entire shaman combat system is a complete mess. The problem is that the whole thing was balanced with these bugs in place. If the bugs get fixed the whole thing collapses.

Last edited by berg : 08/23/07 at 10:08 AM.
#1768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Gremm
Hi,

I don't know if this thread is still alive and under discussion
This is somewhat amusing since my post above yours was made at 9:22 EST today
#1769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tonkan
Hmm, regarding my HP:pool, I actually have roughly 9.3k fully raidbuffed, and I can always use Major fort and STA food aswell to boost it to 9750:ish. Though I never do it, since I find 9.3k to be sufficient for atleast SSC and TK.

I dont really know anything about the HP requirements in Hyjal / BT though, so when I get there, I might have to exchange a couple of gems / pieces of eq I guess

And well, yes, I know you had 5% haste on your Hyjal / BT entry level, but with the incoming haste nerf, I dont really think it's worth to go for the random pieces with passive haste anymore. That's why I calculated my entrylevel withouth any haste at all.
Although I might be wrong XD I'm kinda blindly following the AEP values atm, which will put haste to roughly the same lvl as Hit Rating, which is the least valuable / ItemLevel for us, so to say.
And I know that the AEP points given in the beginning of this thread are supposed to be used for a bit less geared shamans than myself, but I still find them to atleast show me some items which are clear uppgrades.
Though I might miss better uppgrades due to not modifying my values

Last edited by Tonkan : 08/23/07 at 10:50 AM.
#1770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I didn't realise that buffs increased HP by that much.
#1771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Stigmata's Guestimates:
Kara 1300/75Hit/20%Crit/0% Haste
SSC/TK 1400/120Hit/24%Crit/0%Haste

I'm currently 2/5 SSC in progression and I clock at 1150ish AP, 109 Hit, 26ish% crit, unbuffed. I can trade 40ish AP for 2% haste (Crystalweave Cape and a switch of gloves.) Are these Guestimates what you had during those tiers of progressions... or values to be aimed at?
#1772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Raigore
BS: Axe spec, and the 2.7/2.6 combo

Hi there, this was just to ask about 2 questions, first:

Is it worth using a Planar Edge/BPE MH along with a Glad 2.6 OH? Or should I just aim for a decapitator until I get a Syphon?

Then, Is Dragonmaw really the best option? Should I ''respec my BS'' to maces to do it now? or is the axe way still a doable way?

Thanks in advance
#1773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Dragonmaw is very good and I am quite jealous of those who have it.

Also from above Stig made a point that I think was lost. Since Hyjal and BT were released I think you will find very few people who really come close to a full T5 level set.

It does not make much sense, but Kael really is the most challenging encounter in the game. Any guild that can kill Kael will kill Illidan and there is really no reason to hang out in SSC and TK once Hyjal and BT are available. I think we have done 3 Kael kills and then never went back.
#1774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tonkan
Oh, if he meant that, then yes, it went completely over my head. "blush" :P
#1775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Khatib
K... this might be covered somewhere in here, but this thread is so deep I'm not seeing it.

I know this *isn't* optimal... but I need advice on what to enchant a 2H with.

I'm using Gorehowl right now for dps, and don't know which enchant would be best for it... Should I pony up for mongoose, or just throw savagery on it for cheap since it's a 2hander?


Basically our guild's geared enh shaman transferred out to join RL friends, so I stepped onto an old unused character to fill the gap. The char only had lvl 60 HWL axes for weapons. I have yet to get a MH drop... and OH availability is just a joke.. We clear Kara, Gruul, Void Reaver, and are under 10% on Lurker, he'll prolly go down this week... But yeah, my weapon choices are middlin.. I have a few weeks to go before I get an arena offhand, and maybe another week or two til I get a better MH even. So I'm just going to use Gorehowl as filler, and then for PvP situations on into the future.

What's the best way to go for this enchant? Is mongoose worth it in an arena situation? Or should I just save my money and go with savagery, and save Mongoose cash/mats for my DW weapons?

And is Gorehowl really a bad filler option? I don't see how it couldn't be better than weak DW weapons... but I haven't had a chance to raid with it since I picked it up.

Last edited by Khatib : 08/23/07 at 11:31 AM.
#1776SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Khatib
K... this might be covered somewhere in here, but this thread is so deep I'm not seeing it.

I know this *isn't* optimal... but I need advice on what to enchant a 2H with.

I'm using Gorehowl right now for dps, and don't know which enchant would be best for it... Should I pony up for mongoose, or just throw savagery on it for cheap since it's a 2hander?


Basically our guild's geared enh shaman transferred out to join RL friends, so I stepped onto an old unused character to fill the gap. The char only had lvl 60 HWL axes for weapons. I have yet to get a MH drop... and OH availability is just a joke.. We clear Kara, Gruul, Void Reaver, and are under 10% on Lurker, he'll prolly go down this week... But yeah, my weapon choices are middlin.. I have a few weeks to go before I get an arena offhand, and maybe another week or two til I get a better MH even. So I'm just going to use Gorehowl as filler, and then for PvP situations on into the future.

What's the best way to go for this enchant? Is mongoose worth it in an arena situation? Or should I just save my money and go with savagery, and save Mongoose cash/mats for my DW weapons?

And is Gorehowl really a bad filler option? I don't see how it couldn't be better than weak DW weapons... but I haven't had a chance to raid with it since I picked it up.

Last edited by Khatib : 08/23/07 at 12:31 PM.
#1777SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LazyJoe
My 2 cents about the stats :

Currently farming Gruul, working on Magtheridon and Void Reaver
1330 AP
163 hit
29.15% crit

I am full T4-like stuff, with the LW set as well as the BoP craftable mail boots from TK.
#1778SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Khatib
I know this *isn't* optimal... but I need advice on what to enchant a 2H with.
I'd enchant it with 70AP. Mongoose is pretty expensive and works best on two weapons. That being said: Do not use a two hander for enhancement pve. All of our talents and buffs are designed around DW. UR and flurry uptime take a huge hit with a 2hander, and that decreases damage for your whole group.

Gearwise, there's a lot you can do to upgrade. If you have the time and money, I'd suggest farming up a fel edged battle axe for MH and the Heroic Underbog offhand. I'd also suggest hitting up heroics for key upgrades like the WF totem(Mana Tombs) and bloodlust broach(badges). If you have atlas and statbuster, take some time to look through instances and find which pieces of gear are easily attainable upgrades.

PS. Your crit is really really low. At the minimum you'd want it high enough so that UR has a good chance of proccing within 10 seconds.

Edit: Oh, you might want to hold to the HWL axe for an offhand till you get something better.
#1779SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Khatib if you are acting as an emergency fill in then they are really only bringing you for improved totems and unleashed rage which you will have a hard time providing with a 2 hander.

The old HWL is a good enough offhand and just take an evening to go plow regular arcatraz and get the 2.6 speed fist weapon (or some other weapon of your choice) and you will be able to atleast buff your group properly while you close the gear gap over time.
#1780SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
On a side not, it is possible to obtain 1750 AP, 32% Crit, 11% Haste and 20% +hit unbuffed (which is pretty much the maximum attainable gear, including Cursed Vision of Sargeras and Midnight Chesguard)

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#1781SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Good news, Boe increased the size limit on the OP. Crisis averted.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1782SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Beroll
Sta = 0.75
Int = 0.25
Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.1
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.13
HR = 0.25
Originally Posted by Rob
HR way undervalued unless you are extremely close to cap and adding an item's worth of hit would cap you or something.
I thought all Shaman nowadays agree that ~100 HR is the way to go? With a HR weigthing only 0.25 you will see only a few items on top of the lists with HR on them - but that's the trick. These few items provide enough HR to stay at ~100 HR and above.
I hope my point is understandable :/
#1783SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Aerioch
First off, I wish to extend my thanks to Disquette, Tornhoof, Pater, and all the others for their work in the realm of Enhancement Theorycrafting.

With all the various inputs surrounding what the correct baseline stats for each level progression are (AP, Crit, Hit), I'd like to recommend just turning to one of the tools we already have at hand for determining appropriate thresholds -- Tornhoof's Wow Equipement Optimizer. For pre-Karazhan, I recommend taking mean between Normal and Heroic 5-man instances. For Karazhan, use the mean between Heroic 5-man and Karazhan itself, and so on. At least this approach would be slightly more scientific that someone's anecdotal commentary.

Edit: I'm at work on an Ubuntu machine, otherwise I crunch some numbers myself.

Last edited by Aerioch : 08/23/07 at 2:23 PM. Reason: Disclaimer
#1784SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Beroll
I thought all Shaman nowadays agree that ~100 HR is the way to go? With a HR weigthing only 0.25 you will see only a few items on top of the lists with HR on them - but that's the trick. These few items provide enough HR to stay at ~100 HR and above.
I hope my point is understandable :/
That's not quite it. The issue was that many of us were stacking +Hit to the exclusion of AP/Crit during KZ and early SSC, when AP/Crit would have benefited us much much more. Basically don't use Hit gems, don't sacrifice Crit or AP just to gain more Hit. That's all it really boils down to. Hit Rating is still important, and I'd take all I could get as long as it didn't mean sacrificing other stats at the same time.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1785SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Beroll
I thought all Shaman nowadays agree that ~100 HR is the way to go? With a HR weigthing only 0.25 you will see only a few items on top of the lists with HR on them - but that's the trick. These few items provide enough HR to stay at ~100 HR and above.
I hope my point is understandable :/
Depends on your gear, if you get to 1700AP and 30% crit you are gonna want alot of hit.
#1786SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaay
Hello I have a problem that I feel you would be able to resolve. In our gruild we have a shamy who refuses to believe that WF>GoA. I know you have posted this many times and in there 70ish pages of theory theres plenty of proof but hes well....he wont read it. So I need an answer directed at him so he cant ignore it. Anyway after bringing this up with him he came up with this:

"Some calculation would be nice instead of pulling it out the air somewhere, it would also mean that without shaman dropping a totem for you, you would drop to the lowest spots dps wise.
The exact wf damage can;t even be read from the stats, but you can do a small gues, taking that you rogues do 75% damage with your offhand, and wf can only proc on white damage (will be atleast in 2.2, not sure now in 2.1). If you look at the stats normal white hits is around 55% average of your total damage (already including the wf you had yesterday, but ok). So 31% of the your damage is done by your main hand (55% / 1.75 = 31.4%), that damage will get the 20% boost of WF, giving your 6.3% extra total damage. Saying you did 800 dps it would boost your dps to 850 a nice 50 dps boost. Anyway if would drop goa you would gain something like 2.x% crit 88 ap and you could use a sharpening stone/poison or flametongue totem. The ap would only give 12 more dps and 2% crit another 16, FT totem should give another 20 dps if used. Also my unreleashed rage would proc more, give you 10% attack power extra more often. So the difference you are quoting are completly wrong, and btw i moved myself to the other group yesterday, was sick of the whining."

All I ask is for some simple numbers to back up WF>GoA. If this is pointless spam and just delete the post.

Edit: Ah yeh group setup is nearly allways 3 rogues and a warior along side the shamy. (4 rogues in the guild 1dagger, 2 sword and one fist)
#1787SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Here's the best way of dealing with a shaman like that. Stop bothering trying to convince him (unless he's the guild leader/officer, which case this doesn't work). The guy is basically doing this to justify why he should get the totem that he wants. You rogues and the warrior need to bitch non-stop to the raid leader and guild leader about it until someone in a leadership position tells him to drop the correct totems or not to raid. Bottom line is that he's wrong, he doesn't understand the mechanics he's talking about.

Also my unreleashed rage would proc more, give you 10% attack power extra more often.
This is pretty funny because unless his buffed crit rate is lower than 20%, this shouldn't even be a consideration.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"

Last edited by Malan : 08/23/07 at 3:25 PM.
#1788SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaay
Well he is an officer:P So chalenging him like this may not have been the greatest idea. Anyway ill try and direct him to this post.
#1789SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
You can tell him I said he's a bona fide idiot if it helps.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1790SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
I guess what he meant is with Dual wield spec, you get to increase the offhand weapon dmg to be 0.75 multiplier of MH instead of 0.5. So a combat rogue will have 1.75 as a multiplier.
Therefore 55%/1.75 = 31.4% as his overall white dmg done by mainhand.
#1791SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
I've had it pointed out that I may be reading his statement incorrectly, but I'm not so sure. Either way, he's still wrong.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"

Last edited by Malan : 08/23/07 at 3:25 PM.
#1792SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Shaker
No, he's saying 55% of total dmg is white dmg - which is comprised of 1*MH + .75*MH = TotalWhite (which isn't strictly true for sword spec rogues) - this assumes exactly equal DPS weapons, but for rough calcs its close enough. So he can take TotalWhite = 1.75*MH, then TotalWhite (55%) / 1.75 = MH contribution to damage.

But yeah, his math is a bit off since it doesn't value extra rage for warriors, extra procs of powerful items like DST, and if his UR uptime isn't damn near 100% then what the hell kinda gear is he wearing?

The 31% number is "total contribution to overall damage by mainhand white attacks" remove that 31% from the 55% total white attack damage and his math is saying that 24% of total damage comes from offhand white attacks.


And I'm just clarifying the 75% thing - WF is still better than GoA - this guy's just being selfish. Trust me, as a raid leader, I'd prefer if GoA was better - I want to down bosses, not top damage meters.
#1793SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3adversary
so what are the new values for the haste rating nerf? would str be better then?
#1794SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Shaker
They're equal (with kings) right now, and Haste is getting a > 0% nerf. I'm going to hope that's enough clues.
#1795SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
How about this, I think he's a horrible shaman if he's in a group with a warrior and not dropping Windfury. If he really wants the personal DPS boost then he should weave totems. Cool?

Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste
PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste
Haste is thus now worth worth ~2.22 * 10.5/15.7 = 1.48
#1796SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Kaay
Hello I have a problem that I feel you would be able to resolve. In our gruild we have a shamy who refuses to believe that WF>GoA. I know you have posted this many times and in there 70ish pages of theory theres plenty of proof but hes well....he wont read it. So I need an answer directed at him so he cant ignore it. Anyway after bringing this up with him he came up with this:

"Some calculation would be nice instead of pulling it out the air somewhere, it would also mean that without shaman dropping a totem for you, you would drop to the lowest spots dps wise.
The exact wf damage can;t even be read from the stats, but you can do a small gues, taking that you rogues do 75% damage with your offhand, and wf can only proc on white damage (will be atleast in 2.2, not sure now in 2.1). If you look at the stats normal white hits is around 55% average of your total damage (already including the wf you had yesterday, but ok). So 31% of the your damage is done by your main hand (55% / 1.75 = 31.4%), that damage will get the 20% boost of WF, giving your 6.3% extra total damage. Saying you did 800 dps it would boost your dps to 850 a nice 50 dps boost. Anyway if would drop goa you would gain something like 2.x% crit 88 ap and you could use a sharpening stone/poison or flametongue totem. The ap would only give 12 more dps and 2% crit another 16, FT totem should give another 20 dps if used. Also my unreleashed rage would proc more, give you 10% attack power extra more often. So the difference you are quoting are completly wrong, and btw i moved myself to the other group yesterday, was sick of the whining."

All I ask is for some simple numbers to back up WF>GoA. If this is pointless spam and just delete the post.

Edit: Ah yeh group setup is nearly allways 3 rogues and a warior along side the shamy. (4 rogues in the guild 1dagger, 2 sword and one fist)
Part of the original post had numbers with "unideal" group makeups comparing WF to GoA (3 dagger rogues and a dw warrior I think?) and it came out to be something like 2xx raid dps with GoA vs 5xx with WF. As far as the totem nerf goes; well it isn't that big of a deal for rogues and fury warriors. Glancing at a WWS I'm seeing 417 white swings to 59 specials, take out the 28 wf procs, 389 white(66% oh hits for simplicity sake)=128, so you're losing around 30% of your possible WF procs taking out the MH hits. I guess the number was a bit bigger than what I had originally thought it was, with 60 more attacks you're looking at 12 more WF procs in a perfect world and that's near a 50? dps loss? I suppose the totems are a bit closer now, but even assuming the 200 goa vs 500 wf values you're looking at 200 vs 300 still.

He sounds like he's pretty ignorant about the class and probably a crotchety old man.

As far as the 55%/1.75=31.4% it seems correct, just worded poorly. 31.4 done by MH and 23.6 done by offhand.

edited for poor math

Last edited by rava : 08/23/07 at 6:15 PM.
#1797SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by rava
The nerf was pretty much aimed at arms warriors whom have seen a more significant loss due to their high special vs white # of attack output.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the nerf was almost purely to kill the viability of MS warriors in PvE. Everything else was a side effect that they were able to live with as it had the added benefit of tightening up the difference in DPS classes a bit more. I'm finally seeing some die hard raiding MS warriors spec to DW Fury now, which is what Blizzard has been pushing for warrior PvE dps for a while.
#1798SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by rava
Part of the original post had numbers with "unideal" group makeups comparing WF to GoA (3 dagger rogues and a dw warrior I think?) and it came out to be something like 2xx raid dps with GoA vs 5xx with WF.
Yah I removed it after the WF totem change because it was misleading, need to link to a better discussion of it now. There's some talk of it in the WF Totem Change thread, but its broken up in various places and nobody really did the math for a warrior, only for rogues.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1799SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3akan
Kaay,

If 99% of the shaman community know and say WF is better...then i'm about 99% sure they are right. Sadly if he doesn't get that he's a waste of a raid spot for someone willing to work with a team to raid.
#1800SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
From WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

Haste: Haste has been rebalanced. It has returned to the ratios from the launch of Burning Crusade. Melee attacks and spell casts will now benefit at identical rates from haste. This change results in a reduction in the benefit of haste for melee attacks and an increase in the benefit for spellcasters.
Guess it's official now, I don't feel like I got fucked at all.
#1801SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Morelis
From WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes



Guess it's official now, I don't feel like I got fucked at all.
This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )
#1802SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
I agree -- stop trying to convince the guy that WF is better.

Instead, put him in a group with hunters, druids, poison rogues and warriors who still use sharpening stones, where he can do no harm.

Ignoring AP for a second, Windfury is an extra 20% to white melee damage. GoA is at maximum + 3% to all melee damage. Windfury is therefore always better than GoA when white damage is more than 15% of total melee damage.

In groups, assuming everybody's dps is equal and white damage accounts for at least 40% of overall damage, Windfury is superior if only two members pick up the buff off it.
#1803SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by vorda
This was posted on page 69 already. ( http://elitistjerks.com/456866-post1689.html )
Sorry I guess I missed it, doesn't seems there's been much outcry though so I guess no one is concerned. Apparently the key to good nerfs is getting them in while they only affect a minority of the playerbase.
#1804SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kaay
Well hes still very reluctant to give us it. I think its time to give up theres no chaging his mind.
#1805SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Hedin
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.

Last edited by Hedin : 08/24/07 at 4:23 AM.
#1806SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)/10=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?
I can't figure out why you are dividing by 10, but I think that it's 43% of 116 = 49.88x1.1(coe)x1.15(scorch)x1.05(misery)x1.15(elemental weapon) giving you 76.191 extra damage per hit with full crusade stacks.
#1807SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Originally Posted by rava
I can't figure out why you are dividing by 10, but I think that it's 43% of 116 = 49.88x1.1(coe)x1.15(scorch)x1.05(misery)x1.15(elemental weapon) giving you 76.191 extra damage per hit with full crusade stacks.
It's because only 10% +spd goes to FT :-)
And I didn't count all the buffs...

__________________
Hed Military EU-Stonemaul - Draenei Shaman 70lvl 0-46-15
Unbuffed
AP 1672
Crit 30,92%
Hit 20,29%
Haste 1,71%
I Sense Demons.

WF3sec Ace2 - Shows WindFury and Stormstrike cooldowns.
MeleeBuffs Ace2 - Shows usefull DPS buff timers for Enhacement Shamans.
MeleeFrame Ace2 - Shows AP, Crit, weapon speed and damage in a movable window.
WFtotem Ace2 - Shows WF totem timers.
#1808SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin
It's because only 10% +spd goes to FT :-)
And I didn't count all the buffs...
Wow, that's a pretty weak coefficient; I had assumed it was 43% like the other instant spells.
#1809SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tshonka
Hello,

my first post here.
Thanks you very much for the info in this thread, it rules.
It is good reading material in the morning here at work and it really helped improve my performance.

I have some questions (and yes i have read the previous 70 pages)

1) does tranquility stack with salvationi. I ask this because on some fights our dps warrior has problems. I dont think they do but i want conformation of smarter people .

2) does totemtwisting improve your own dps also? And by how much it increases it the dps of the others if you dont totem twist.
Our group setup is a pve dualwielding fury warrior, 2 (or 3) swords rogues, and sometimes one feral druid.

3) my own performance should improve I heard. We run with 2 enhance shamans, one in MT group and one in melee group. Normally i go in the melee group and try to improve the dps of our group to the max. For me this is the most important. Therre are some complaints though that my own dps is not as high as the other enhance shaman.
He is a bit better geared but I think it has to do with our task though.
So this is my armory link The Armory can you give me some good tips.
This are our wow web stats overview Wow Web Stats.

I know my trinket is not that good but i hope to get the hourglass and the bloodlust brooch this weekend (bloody things never drop and I made a mistake in heroic badges once).
I hope to get the tsunami talisman soon also.
Good boots seems to have dissappeared in the loottables when I am arround but i keep clearing KZ every week for it .

Normally i use SS when i can (trying not to be in the wf cooldown, thanks for the maker of this addon ), and a rotation of Flame shock and earth shock.
My SS is used up last runs by our elemental shaman.

Our guild has killed 3 bosses in SSC and 2 in the Eye. Loot in our tier 5 instances has been poo and i have loads of dkp to spend (if something usefull would drop)

Any other tips to cycles, gear or other stuff. Should i play more "egocentric" to upper my dps?

4) is the trinket for alchemy any good for us? Did not see it in the thread and i am not sure.
For me it helps when using mana pots on fights where shamanstic rage is difficult to use.
What would be the value of it comparing to other trinkets. Should i keep using it?

5) we have lots of theocrafting how much dps a shaman brings to a melee group but i did not see any theocrafting how much a enhancement shaman brings to threat.
In the MT group we have a prot warrior, a feral druid, an enhancement shaman and then 2 out of a resto druid, prot pala, affliction warlock.
How much extra threat and dps he brings in that group. We ran a farmrun yesterday to gruul without a shaman in the MT group and i heard people complain that threat was much lower.
So any theocrafting on this one?

Already thanks for my difficult questions and keep up the good work Malan and the others.

__________________
"Emocow"
#1810SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Tshonka

1) 44% threat reduction with (only) Blessing of Salvation and Tranquil Air. Kenco: A Guide To Threat.

2) From the OP: The shaman is placed on constant global cooldown. The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds is enormous. Raids that do not have paladins using Judgment of Wisdom will be unable to sustain this method. The shaman will have very little mana available for shocks and will likely only be able to sporadically use flame shock.
(In summary I doubt it'll improve your own DPS but it'll increase the DPS the group gain from you )

3) Personally I'd say no to playing more egoistic but ultimately it's your choice of course.

4) For the few times you need to chug a pot sure it's great but I have no doubt other trinkets (DPS ones) will benefit you more overall.

5) Haven't played my prot warrior for a while now but I used to see a significant increase in my KLH TPS with Windfury totem at the time.

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#1811SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
1) It stacks.

2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking.

3) There is no technique to playing a shaman imo, you dont have to keep up certain things (s&d, Mangle etc) so simply always being behind the mob, using your CD's effectively and keeping down your totems will provide you with pretty reasonable DPS.

4) The trinket blows, bloodlust brooch, hourglass, abacus, crystal forged, are all easily attainable.

5) Having 2 enhancement shamans imo is a waste. Your tank should not need a shaman to be able to generate enough threat.

Finally you've wearing all mail, any reason why? I think up till BT i was wearing 50% leather.
#1812SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tshonka
raason why i wear mail is because of history earlier

1) i had a serious dislike for a shaman who ran around healing in cloth, he died just by looking at him. This was of course in vanilla wow but still now if i can get the mail stuff i would rather have that then leather.
But i checked the lootzor link and maybe i should go for more leather then

2) dont want to "steal" the stuff from our rogues and feral druids but maybe i should begin with that .

3) i will replace the trinket then

All thanks for the info already, if you have more advice just let it flow

__________________
"Emocow"
#1813SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drc
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.

1400 AP
203 Hit
25,84% Crit

__________________
Think of how stupid the average user is. Now realize half of them is even dumber than that.
#1814SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hulkling
@Hed

Just tested, because frankly i've never used Flametongue since getting Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Nope, it doesnt proc from FT. Interestingly enough, it doesnt even proc from windfury, something I submitted a petition about months ago. WF being a physical attack you'd think it should activate the trinket. The GM thought so as well and told me it was a bug, but then again, hes a GM not a Dev. the latter seem to have funny notions of... well pretty much anything.
#1815SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Tshonka --
You need better trinkets, my man. The Brooch, Abacus or Hourglass to start (easy farms), even the Skyguard trinket (since you're probably already exalted with them, it's 3g for 68 AEP without the proc), but you should really fight for the Dragonspine if it drops.

Don't worry too much about dumping mail for some leather. It's nowhere near the same as wearing all cloth. I have a few leather pieces and much lower class gear than yours, and yet only have about 6% less DR. Is 6% really going to save you from being one-shotted?

If you're worried about threat & survivability, here's a suggestion: get a nice gear mod like Outfitter. Find a high armor, high block shield and set it up as a key binding. The second your threat mod tells you you've exceeded 90% of the tank you're standing behind, switch to the shield, and the second you drop below 80%, switch back to DW. This gives you survivability way beyond what a few pieces of mail can give you. The AEP values of some of those leather pieces are just insane. You could use some extra +crit!
#1816SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Hedin
Was thinking about [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] it gives 120ap and 80spd with full stacks, will it be good using this trinket after 2.3 buff with a fast OH+FT?
(120ap*30%+80spd)*10%=+11,6 fire damage before COE+Scorch+Spriest and (maybe) Elemental Weapons.

Does FT proc this trinket?
No, FT does not proc this trinket. Neither do frostbrand, or totem crits. :-/ Also shocking to max buffs is kinda difficult, in practice I found I was only able to stack 3 or 4 buffs before one of my shocks was resisted. I suppose you could drop a lightning bolt or something to keep it going, but that would be a horrible decrease in melee damage.

On a side note, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath] might become a decent combo again once 2.3 hits due to FT since the Wrath buff doesn't get consumed by FT crits. I'll probably have to do PTR testing on this to find anything conclusive.
#1817SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Edit nevermind that was silly.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1818SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
So, to bring something new into the thread...

Here they are discussing the effect of Weapon Skill. While it was previously believed that weapon skill grants 0.1% hit and 0.04% crit per point (not to be confused with weapon skill rating), it now appears that it's actually better than that for the first 5 points of weapon skill. This is a big deal for Enhancement Shamans because we have no way of getting Weapon Skill from talents like Rogues.

In fact, the only item I'm aware of that grants weapon skill to non-daggers that we can equip is the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Theoretically, this should give me an extra 2% hit and 0.24% crit with my Main Hand from the Weapon Skill rating, so I picked it up last night. (Sadly, my offhand is an axe and is not affected by this item... back of napkin math, 900 DPS 50% white 66% of which is MH, extra 2% hit = 900*.5*.66*.02 = 5.94 DPS; extra 0.24% crit 900 DPS 90% physical 66% of which is MH = 900*.9*.66*.0024 = 1.28 DPS, total contribution 7.22 DPS.... anyone want to carry this the rest of the way and convert that to AP?)

BTW, if this proves to be correct, then I would have to suggest that any orc aim for the Arena axe if they weren't already, and any non-orc aim for the mace as I'm not aware of any items we can equip to boost axe weapon skill.
#1819SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1820SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Stigmata
2) Totem twisting improves the groups dps and increases your melee dps while reducing your ownoverall dps due to not shocking.
I'm not so sure I agree with this anymore.

Using Disquette's Totem Twisting bar, I've started using WF totem but waiting to GoA until right after the first WF refresh. Over the long run it gives less GoA but it gives a 10s window for shaman to dps and refresh shocks/SS etc. More importantly, it gives more chances for WF crits, which cause significantly more damage than shocks. Since one MH WF crit does more damage than a shock, I can stop and start auto attacking to try and get the MH to proc WF.

I don't have any fancy graphics, but my pattern goes something like this:
0s Flame shock (on approach)
1.5s WF totem (on approach)
(get in melee range)
3.0s Storm Strike
4.5s Wait for WFT refresh
5.0s GoA
6.5s Earthshock
(turn off/on auto attack to proc MH WF)
12s Flame shock
13.5s Storm Strike
15s WF totem

Then rinse, lather, repeat. Sometimes I wait for a second or two so the first SS is inside the GoA time.

Long story short, my DPS skyrocketed. It takes a retarded amount of keybinds and practicing to get it working, but the results are well worth it. Is anyone else doing something like this?
#1821SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
@Tshonka
5) You can always have a resto shaman drop WF in the MT's group, that is a fairly large increase in threat for him.

Originally Posted by Malan
In theory if FT is as viable as we'd hope you'd get a hefty bonus from that with an Axe/Dagger combo.
Axe/dagger if you're orc, mace/mace or mace/dagger if you're anything else.
#1822SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3evale
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3.
Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more.


Also, you should at least put a little bit of thought into sta/int/mp5.
Sta: can't do dmg if you're dead can you?
Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro.
#1823SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by evale
Int/mp5: Shamanistic rage generates bucketloads of aggro and let's face it, the biggest thing holding you back from rockin the dps charts is your threat. I'm happy to mana pot on CD but mana is still an issue, especially as BC instances are no longer 5-minute-Naxx. You're likely to need to shammy rage 3 times in one encounter! That is serious aggro.
So drop TA or twist WF+TA while you're Shamanistic Raging on aggro-touchy encounters. (Or get your tank lessons/a better ping/WF totem.) MP5 is WAY over-budget for the amount of extra potential damage it gives us. Blizzard needs to take the MP5 off our T6 so I can wear mail as my end-game set; right now it looks like it will be mostly leather.
#1824SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3washe
Originally Posted by drc
Those are my current stats (more precise, would be if I had socketed pure damage, which I will be doing someday soon). The gear is maxed out from Karazhan and Heroics.

1400 AP
203 Hit
25,84% Crit

Well first post here, and damn lots of good info here, I will start to regear my shaman with some leather, altought Rogues will hate me a bit more for stealing his stuff.

Question are you getting double mongoose proc using those cleavers?

I read somewhere and I can be uniformed tought that Mongoose went into cooldown if the weapons had the same name, basically you wouldn't be able to have Mongoose x 2.... asking because Im working on the second merciless weapon.

What options I have for Helms?, looks like the best helm its the one that drops from Doomwalker, but he its out of my hands for the moment due that we dont have enough raid force atm to do 25 mans.

Also Im gemming the Midnight Legguards today and switching my desolation legs, Im aware I will lose like 30 hit, lowering my current 183 I got... I understand that at the moment I don't need that high hit number until later on.

Thanks for sharing all the info guys!
#1825SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by evale
+hit/crit/str ratings:
How much crit and hit are worth is completely dependant on how much you already have!! How much ap you have means nothing if you don't hit the mob in the first place. And if you don't hit it, you can't get a WF so you are easily delaying your WF proc greatly which is not just missing 1 hit, you're missing 3.
Also, how much crit is worth to you depends on how much you crit for. If you have tons of AP already, the amount being doubled by your crit is greater, thus the crit is worth more.
.
Isn't this the same misconstructed logic that has been repeatedly squashed down before?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#1826SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khatib
This may be another question that's been raised... I tried search and didn't spot it though... sorry if it's a repeat.


As a shaman who's working on getting DW weapons and is below the TK/Hyjal weapons...

Would say a Malchazeen OH with one of the other weapon buffs, FT or RB, be better than one of the heroic blues with WF for dps? I know it would be horrible with WF cause it would steal your MH procs, but what about without WF? Would the +20 dps on the weapon make up for the difference between WF and FT output?
#1827SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Straight off the first post of the thread, with bolded emphasis:
The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit again after a WF cooldown and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)
#1828SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by evale
explain to me how not having + hit is supposed to allow you to hit the mob.
Even with 0 +hit, you still hit the mob. You won't miss 100% of the time. Having more AP / Crit early on will make up for more damage even if you miss a bit more. Good rule of thumb is don't go out of your way for +hit, it'll come on the gear as your progress and gear normally..
#1829SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Khatib
Originally Posted by Malan
Straight off the first post of the thread, with bolded emphasis:
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I read that to only concern WF on both hands, not a non-WF buff on the offhand... and I didn't see numbers saying just how much of a difference there is between the buffs, so I was just thinking perhaps the weapon DPS itself could overcome that gap.

I see the equations on WF damage... if you have the numbers for FT dps, I'd be glad to do my own math and compare I just didn't see those listed at all.
#1830SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Squidfury
It seems to me that +hit beyond ~5% or so ( from gear, 8% with natures guidance) only affects your DPS by the same ratio of your dps that comes from white damage. So if your white damage is 50% of your DPS, you only get 50% of the benefit from +hit once you are no longer missing with yellow attacks ( WF and SS).

While it is true to some degree that +hit will cause more WF procs, the 3 sec cooldown mitigates that benefit greatly. It seems rare, with only 84 hit, that WF does not proc almost immediately after the cooldown is up, assuming you save SS for when WF is on cooldown.
#1831SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
Isn't this the same misconstructed logic that has been repeatedly squashed down before?
No, it's innovation at it's finest. I'm amazed that nobody ever brought up this argument before, I really am. You have to hit a mob to proc WF, of course.

As far as the flametongue thing, it's inferior. Your mainhand will almost never use WF every time possible and your OH randomly picking up the CD outdps's flametongue. I use flametongue on one thing and that's Hyjal waves with necros simply due to the fact that I'm hovering around .3 attack speed with both weapons.
#1832SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Khatib
Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I read that to only concern WF on both hands, not a non-WF buff on the offhand... and I didn't see numbers saying just how much of a difference there is between the buffs, so I was just thinking perhaps the weapon DPS itself could overcome that gap.

I see the equations on WF damage... if you have the numbers for FT dps, I'd be glad to do my own math and compare I just didn't see those listed at all.
After 2.3 it has been calculated, elsewhere in the thread, to be comparable to Windfury, given passive haste, but not superior. I think that the main advantage of the 2.3 patch will be filling in "gear gaps". Prime example: There are no Enh usable off-hand upgrades from heroics->halfway through TK, and none in SSC. I've been using my lightning-squid off-hand for...man, a long freaking time.

The weapon DPS has no hope of overcomming that gap. You are, just like I did, underestimating the advantage of even a single extra hit, let alone two extra hits. As your gear level increases, Windfury becomes so much more powerful than any other option because it gains a direct benefit from all of the stats you are focusing on, while (currently) FT/FB are getting no benefit.

To put it simply, until 2.3, the only viable option for Enh DPS is slow/slow, WF/WF.
#1833SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nabbig
Sorry if someone already asked this, but is there a crit cap for shaman?
#1834SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
Illidan dropped that 110 dps 1.9 speed dagger last night and no one in the entire raid wanted it. Daggers are currently busted for every class, not just enhance shaman.
#1835SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Nabbig
Sorry if someone already asked this, but is there a crit cap for shaman?
I thought the term 'crit cap' was only relevant for backstabbing rogues?

Just so I get it right: an attack has to hit before it can crit, so in case you manage to get your crit higher then your hit%, you'r wasting crit. Which I can only imagine for backstab, which only needs +7% hit (give or take?) as it is yellow dmg?
#1836SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Althir
Originally Posted by Nabbig
Sorry if someone already asked this, but is there a crit cap for shaman?
After the glancing blow changes, "crit cap" is functionally a non issue. It takes enormous amounts of crit to be "capped" (with no +hit at all, you would still not be capped at 40% crit chance). Now, if you attack from the front of the mob in addition to having no +hit, you may experience a crit cap. But why would you do such a thing?
#1837SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by vorda
I thought the term 'crit cap' was only relevant for backstabbing rogues?

Just so I get it right: an attack has to hit before it can crit, so in case you manage to get your crit higher then your hit%, you'r wasting crit. Which I can only imagine for backstab, which only needs +7% hit (give or take?) as it is yellow dmg?
No, crit% is part of the attack table, which contains hit, crit, miss, dodge, and parry. So if you have 30% crit then 30% of your attacks will crit even with 0 hit rating.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
#1838SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by vorda
I thought the term 'crit cap' was only relevant for backstabbing rogues?

Just so I get it right: an attack has to hit before it can crit, so in case you manage to get your crit higher then your hit%, you'r wasting crit. Which I can only imagine for backstab, which only needs +7% hit (give or take?) as it is yellow dmg?
Just to add in some number for the sake of being direct and concret the 'crit cap' for any dual wielding class on white damage will be aproximatly 49.5% against a boss level mob assuming attacks from the back. The number goes up when you add hit rating via talents, weapon skill, and hit rating on gear and caps out at aproximatly 75% at which point adding any of the above does nothing.

On yellow attacks the crit cap starts at 91.36% when attack from behind and also goes up when adding hit rating via talents, weapon skill, and hit rating capping out at 100%.

A 50% crit rate is theoretically possible given buffs, gear, and talents but I'm not even sure it's possible to stack that much crit without picking up at least a little hit somewhere just on accident. As far as I know the crit cap was only ever an issue for white damage before the change to the frequency of glancing blows raised the number of white attacks eligable for crit. It has never been an issue for yellow attacks outside of exceedingly rare buffing situations.
#1839SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Althir
Originally Posted by drats
No, crit% is part of the attack table, which contains hit, crit, miss, dodge, and parry. So if you have 30% crit then 30% of your attacks will crit even with 0 hit rating.

Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
This is not exactly correct. Crit chance will not push the mob's avoidance off the attack table. So if you have 30% crit, and by some means the mob has 75% avoidance, you will crit with 25% (all) of your successful attacks, while 5% of your crit is "wasted" (This is what crit cap means).
#1840SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
So has anyone crunched the numbers fully for Slow/Fast WF/FT vs. Slow/Slow WF/WF in 2.3?

Is there a break point where one will be better than the other?

I was also looking into seeing if it was possible to get call of flame in 2.3 and keep nature's guidance. Would that be a better DPS increase than just sticking more points into enh?

7/41/13 or something.
#1841SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Why HR isn't the bees knees for Shamans:

An Enh/Resto shaman starts out with a lower miss chance than any other class, 2% with one weapon and 15% with two weapons.

For white damage, 1% hit roughly equals 1% crit in terms of dps, but only crits can proc flurry/u. rage, which adds weight to crit.

Much of an Enh shaman's damage comes from WF and SS, which have a lower miss chance and thus won't benefit much from +hit. These will benefit greatly from +crit.

Why HR is actually kind of nice:

No buffs will increase your HR; there are a number of buffs for crit chance.

Pretty cheap: only takes 15.8 HR for 1% hit, versus 22.1 CR for 1% crit

Fights that have a DW shaman moving in and out of melee often put a greater stress on each hit and thus benefit more from + hit (a theory of mine, slap me with a clue stick if it's wrong).

How to tell if you have too much crit and need more hit:

Get the mod Recount.
Look at the pie chart for melee damage.
If you see a ton of misses, and a ton of crits, but no hits, up your HR.

Keep in mind: this will never happen.
#1842SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Why HR isn't the bees knees for Shamans:

An Enh/Resto shaman starts out with after talents has a lower miss chance than any other class, 2% with one weapon and 15% with two weapons.
Just to alleviate confusion.
#1843SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Morninglory
So has anyone crunched the numbers fully for Slow/Fast WF/FT vs. Slow/Slow WF/WF in 2.3?

Is there a break point where one will be better than the other?

I was also looking into seeing if it was possible to get call of flame in 2.3 and keep nature's guidance. Would that be a better DPS increase than just sticking more points into enh?

7/41/13 or something.
The math has been done. The question has been asked 2 times per page since the math has been done, just search and read back- 8 posts above yours someone replied with this same response. I'm really amazed at how many times the same exact questions are asked.

Here, I found them:

http://elitistjerks.com/440275-post1058.html
http://elitistjerks.com/440939-post1095.html
http://elitistjerks.com/440974-post1101.html
http://elitistjerks.com/440998-post1107.html

I have no idea what you expect to gain from call of flame, it increases fire totem damage.

Last edited by rava : 08/24/07 at 4:45 PM.
#1844SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Althir
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Fights that have a DW shaman moving in and out of melee often put a greater stress on each hit and thus benefit more from + hit (a theory of mine, slap me with a clue stick if it's wrong).

This isn't really an issue. Your chance to hit/crit/miss whatever-and-etc are not altered by whether or not you're standing in place or running in and out of range. While moving may alter the size of the data set, this isn't an issue. The size of the data set is only relevant when you're using it to support claims, not vice-versa. You already have your statistics in place and can use them to predict results (i.e. 27.15% chance to crit is known before hand, not something you must determine through a data set).

FYI: Law of large numbers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Last edited by Althir : 08/24/07 at 4:39 PM.
#1845SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Morninglory
Apologies on that.

But in regards to call of flame - I looked at talents again and it's sort of impossible to get this without sacrificing hit% somewhere else. I crunched the numbers anyway, since I had time to do so.

Despite the minimal dps gain, I still use searing totem in raids since there is nothing better to do with your fire totems. With 2.3 changes, we might see some decent dps gains with call of flame.

2800 raid buffed ap = 840 spell damage. Searing totem recieves 8% of that, so 67.2 per strike, putting the each tick at 125.2 average. The totem gets 30 ticks per use, for a total of 3765 damage over its lifespan. A 15% boost from 3 points in call of flame will thus add damage to that, for a total of 4330, at a cost of 182 mana with both mental agility and totemic mastery. That's 23.7 dpm. This is also ignoring crits, which you could safely estimate would add 5% damage/efficiency on top of that.

Of course, you could pop trinkets/procs and get your AP much higher before dropping, in which case the totem would be even more powerful/efficient.

EDIT: I also neglected to add bonus damage from CoE, Scorch, and Misery. I went ahead and factored crit and resists in too for a dmg output of 4633.

Anyway, talents make this possible only if you disregard hit somewhere else, so I guess it's moot.

But are many of you considering taking imp lightning shield in 2.3?

Last edited by Morninglory : 08/24/07 at 4:45 PM.
#1846SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by berg
Illidan dropped that 110 dps 1.9 speed dagger last night and no one in the entire raid wanted it. Daggers are currently busted for every class, not just enhance shaman.
Eh, to be fair, that dagger has a horrible proc taking up a lot of the item budget, imo. If you had the same item, but with the stats of *any* of the top 10 dps daggers below it, it would be a great weapon.

I'll echo one of the comments in wowhead - The worst proc since Perdition's Blade
#1847SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
IMO, no spell shield is all that great in a raid. I get hit too rarely for water shield to generate much mana, and when I do I certainly don't want the extra threat caused by lightning shield!

Gone are the days when lightning shield was my DPM favorite; these days, I only light it up for PvP. Imp. LS, even with the new lighnin' reflexes, is just points better wasted on Anticipation. Who doesn't want a 3% chance to not get one-shotted for stupidly drawing aggro?
#1848SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Originally Posted by Rob
BTW, if this proves to be correct, then I would have to suggest that any orc aim for the Arena axe if they weren't already, and any non-orc aim for the mace as I'm not aware of any items we can equip to boost axe weapon skill.
Yup i did mentioned too before about weapon skill in my previous post. I believe DW shaman should be having the same attack table from weapon skill compare to rogue/warriors. And having the first 5 weapon skill point would boost your dps on boss mob by at least 2-3%, consider if the theory is correct. And so far beside orc, the rest of the shaman are all sitting at 350 weapon skills, while this belt is a one goal solution to push your weapon skill above 355 without sacrificing too much on other stats.

For the lazy one who don't bother to read the other thread on weapon skills, it is believe that lvl73 mob have a 9%/28% miss chance if you are having 350 weapon skills, which would gives your hit cap at 300 after talent, and a hit cap of 253 if 355 weapon skills.

These are pure deduction at the moment. I haven't got a chance to get hold of this belt. But if you do, i would like to see some interesting result from WWS parse if possible.
#1849SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
IMO, no spell shield is all that great in a raid. I get hit too rarely for water shield to generate much mana, and when I do I certainly don't want the extra threat caused by lightning shield!

Gone are the days when lightning shield was my DPM favorite; these days, I only light it up for PvP. Imp. LS, even with the new lighnin' reflexes, is just points better wasted on Anticipation. Who doesn't want a 3% chance to not get one-shotted for stupidly drawing aggro?
My water shield goes off all the time, its too good *not* to use. I refresh it constantly in raids.
#1850SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Teirz
Most aoe will consumes your shield, esp when you are force to take that damage sometimes. e.g. Gruul's cave in DOES proc your shields so i had to agree that it's a waste not to refresh your shield.

However there are certain attack that doesn't proc your shield at all e.g. Void reavers's pounding. So i'm not sure how does blizz actually decide which attack will procs the shield.
#1851SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kalamadea
Hammer vs Axe

I've been pouring over pages of this thread and wowhead reading everything I can on this topic. Atm I'm 300 smithing and trying to decide for raid dps, which specialty will be better. With that being said, I'm a draenei (no +weapon skill =/ ).

Is it safe to make the following statements (based on reading)?

1. Orcs best weapon is axe post haste nerf.
2. For the rest, Axe is a better weapon at KZ/Gruul/SSC/TK lvls.
3. Once higher SSC/TK and BT/Hyjal is reached, the mace's scaling > axe's raw stats.

Finally, for PVP does the stam on the 2H mace and stun proc provide a better pvp weapon then DW with BS mace or axe?

Thank you for all the info to date!
#1852SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
My water shield goes off all the time, its too good *not* to use. I refresh it constantly in raids.
Heh, Strange you should say that, I dont think I have ever cast it once, not since TBC came out anyway.
#1853SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Ashtongue Trinket

Current theory stands that Ashtongue Talisman of Vision has 89% proc rate. But it think it is less. Let me explain.

As I understand from Bergs math, he assumes that buff is applied when ever SS hits. But in practice i have seen many SS hits that does not apply the buff. And reading the tooltip, it makes perfect sense - "Stormstrike has a 50% chance to grant up to 275 attack power for 10 sec." - each weapon has 50% chance to apply buff on SS hit.

That would mean 50% x 50% = 25% miss chance?
Following the same assumption that Berg made about parry/dodge, 5% of SS does not land at all. Doesnt it mean that proc rate is rather 71% not 89% that would bring AEP down to 195? In this case this trnklet would be more in line on other trinklets, still a clear winner (with melee haste nerf inc), but not an overpowered (nor bugged) one.

Did some testing on ogres above Aldors (level 71 non-elites).

Out of 50 SS i got:
- 3 lost to ether parry/dodge/miss
- 7 ss hits, but no buff applied

I know that its not enough testing for solid statistics, but does show the pattern.

Comments?
#1854SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Rob
So drop TA or twist WF+TA while you're Shamanistic Raging on aggro-touchy encounters. (Or get your tank lessons/a better ping/WF totem.) MP5 is WAY over-budget for the amount of extra potential damage it gives us. Blizzard needs to take the MP5 off our T6 so I can wear mail as my end-game set; right now it looks like it will be mostly leather.
Couldn't agree more. The 35 Mp5 at T6 could also be around 85 (!) agility.
#1855SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Heh, Strange you should say that, I dont think I have ever cast it once, not since TBC came out anyway.
I use LS mostly for the extra damage. The way I look at it is the amount of mana restored by WS is insignificant compared to shamanistic rage, but the damage caused by LS is so mana efficient that I can't not use it. And it's just going to get so much better in 2.3.
#1856SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3funshinebear
During raids I use Water Shield pretty regularly. I just did a quick check of our last TK run and mana gained from Shamanistic Rage was 58.5k and Water Shield was 11.5k.
#1857SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Durigen
Water Shield is quite possibly one of the more powerful tools given to an enhancement shaman. While your shield may procc some extra damage for a piddly investment of mana, you get (I think) 4x the amount back. In long fights (>3 minutes) that can really add up to alot of mana. And one Shock or one good SS will out damage an entire LS - and cost less mana.
#1858SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Water shield? Camoon, I´ll remind you, ench shaman is not a (prime) healer. Your DPS. IT is only good at Kaz'rogal in MH when you do not want to gimp yourself with shadowres. If you ever ever run into manaproblems, use manaspring totem. And tbh, if you have mana problems, you screwd up your rage timing. And if you didnt and you are still oom, check your gear - need to have more AP. Easy fix is bloodlust brooth you should only use together with shamanistc rage. Also, make sure you get battleshout + bom, and ola - 7k manaback becomes reality during 1 rage.

(my unbuffed AP is ~1500, raidbuffed @ shamanistc rage time ~3300, that makes rage tick me for 500+ mana )
#1859SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Kalamadea
I've been pouring over pages of this thread and wowhead reading everything I can on this topic. Atm I'm 300 smithing and trying to decide for raid dps, which specialty will be better. With that being said, I'm a draenei (no +weapon skill =/ ).

Is it safe to make the following statements (based on reading)?

1. Orcs best weapon is axe post haste nerf.
2. For the rest, Axe is a better weapon at KZ/Gruul/SSC/TK lvls.
3. Once higher SSC/TK and BT/Hyjal is reached, the mace's scaling > axe's raw stats.

Finally, for PVP does the stam on the 2H mace and stun proc provide a better pvp weapon then DW with BS mace or axe?

Thank you for all the info to date!
I would agree with 1 but just say that the mace is better at just about every gear lvl for non orcs.

Theres a topic about 2h vs DW in pvp on the pvp forum (cant miss it), I personally prefer DW. If you were to go 2h, out of the BS weapons, I'd pick the mace aswell.
#1860SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Durigen
Water Shield is quite possibly one of the more powerful tools given to an enhancement shaman. While your shield may procc some extra damage for a piddly investment of mana, you get (I think) 4x the amount back. In long fights (>3 minutes) that can really add up to alot of mana. And one Shock or one good SS will out damage an entire LS - and cost less mana.
One shock will not out-damage an LS for less mana, and I don't think it does now either.

Let's look at scenario again with 2800 AP, which equals 840 spell dmg.

LS receives full spell damage / 3 per charge.

Base dmg is 287 per charge + (840/3)280 = 567

Talents add 15% = 652 dmg per charge

652 * 3 = 1956 dmg for one cast of LS

Now factor raid effects - Misery, (no SS since it is likely being eaten), chance to resist - averages to 1766 dmg

1766 / 460 mana (base cost with Mental Quickness) = 3.8 dmg per mana


compared to Flame Shock


377 initial with 420 over the dot, the initial burst receives 15%, the dot 52% of spell dmg.

at 840 this equals 503 and 856.

The initial shock can crit, so we'll ave that at 528, for a total of 1384.

Raid effects - misery, scorch, coe, resists = 1475 dmg. Assuming you have concussion, that brings it to 1549

Mana cost is 470 with mental quickness, for a dpm of 3.3


LS will beat FS by .5 dpm in this type of raid situation. Now at that point, you have to say, is it worth it to regen 297 mana over the course of X time, or to do 1766 dmg over that X time. ? You'd have to consider the frequency with which the charges would be consumed, the length of the fight, and whether time will be a factor in the use of that mana. Since you can assume you'll be able to regenerate your mana to full every 2 minutes, it may also depend upon the size of your mana pool and how fast you can use it up within that time.

Then there's the consideration that I can pop a mana pot every two minutes and more than make up for using LS instead of WS, and thus I'm doing more damage. Assuming I'll never be completely oom, I opt to do more damage. It's the same reason that I ask for Blessing of Might instead of Wisdom.
#1861SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Water shield? Camoon, I´ll remind you, ench shaman is not a (prime) healer. Your DPS. IT is only good at Kaz'rogal in MH when you do not want to gimp yourself with shadowres. If you ever ever run into manaproblems, use manaspring totem. And tbh, if you have mana problems, you screwd up your rage timing. And if you didnt and you are still oom, check your gear - need to have more AP. Easy fix is bloodlust brooth you should only use together with shamanistc rage. Also, make sure you get battleshout + bom, and ola - 7k manaback becomes reality during 1 rage.

(my unbuffed AP is ~1500, raidbuffed @ shamanistc rage time ~3300, that makes rage tick me for 500+ mana )
It's not a matter of a poorly timed rage, it's a matter of burning through 7k+ mana in <120 seconds. It's very possible and takes some realization of what all you can do in those 120 seconds to get the most out of your mana and anything added (mana spring, jow, water shield) is an extra shock that I don't have to skip.
#1862SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Teirz
Don't forget lightning shield do 100% threat while your melee damage is 85% threat. So at threat sensitive fight you would wanna reduce threat as much as possible instead.

Althought enh is not a prime healer, you might be saving a raid if happen that you go out from dps and heal the MT for a moment while your druid brez the dead healer. Don't forget that enh although weak in healing efficiency, able to swap weapon and gain +600-700 healing will still helps you to put out some good emergency healing, and it will just get better when 2.3 comes.

Last edited by Teirz : 08/25/07 at 2:43 PM.
#1863SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Malan
My water shield goes off all the time, its too good *not* to use. I refresh it constantly in raids.
I'm also very skeptical that things like teron's shadow bolts, or naj'entus' shield will make the bosses HIT by the shield, instead of just eating a charge. Then again, I've never put in the effort to look much.
#1864SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Viper
Originally Posted by Igniter
I'm also very skeptical that things like teron's shadow bolts, or naj'entus' shield will make the bosses HIT by the shield, instead of just eating a charge. Then again, I've never put in the effort to look much.
I could see Naj'entus's tidal shield doing it, but the shadow bolts from Teron are performed by those "Doom Blossoms" and not even him.
#1865SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Igniter
I'm also very skeptical that things like teron's shadow bolts, or naj'entus' shield will make the bosses HIT by the shield, instead of just eating a charge. Then again, I've never put in the effort to look much.
This is why I stopped caring about Lightning Shield, even at the entry raid level, you have Gruul, Shatter eats LS charge but doesn't do any damage. Too many boss abilities are like that, so I'm also in the camp of "3% chance to dodge a game-ending cleave/stay alive long enough for a taunt/heal to hit".

I always drop Mana Spring anyway unless a resist or cleansing totem's needed (as well as Searing every 2m, and Fire Nova if I'm too threat-capped to shock). It's a minimal improvement, but if you're not twisting you should have GCDs to spare, so...

Last edited by Rob : 08/25/07 at 3:12 PM.
#1866SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob
This is why I stopped caring about Lightning Shield, even at the entry raid level, you have Gruul, Shatter eats LS charge but doesn't do any damage. Too many boss abilities are like that, so I'm also in the camp of "3% chance to dodge a game-ending cleave/stay alive long enough for a taunt/heal to hit".

I always drop Mana Spring anyway unless a resist or cleansing totem's needed (as well as Searing every 2m, and Fire Nova if I'm too threat-capped to shock). It's a minimal improvement, but if you're not twisting you should have GCDs to spare, so...
Don't forget bosses with a pulse sort of thing; archimonde and hydross come to mind.
#1867SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Brum
Deleted, linked to post with inaccurate data

Last edited by Brum : 10/08/07 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Linked to poor post
#1868SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Chutoi
I'm afraid I'm a little behind the times. I was under the (apparently) mistaken impression that frostbrand was actually superior to fire on our weapons. Could someone help unconfuse me?

I'm guessing I should be switching to fire instead of frost for fights. I'm currently using the merciless gladiator main hand and offhand fist weapons. That means my offhand is faster than my main hand. Would I be better off using dual WF? I'd expect, given the analysis here, that I'd be better off using WF and fire (vs frost?) unless I choose to use a slower weapon in my offhand.

Has the analysis between frost and fire already been run?

Thank you, guys!
#1869SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
To my understanding, you'll still be better off using windfury on your offhand. The analysis of Flametongue Weapon was done with the upcoming talent changes in mind (and these won't be coming till the expansion I think).
#1870SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
I think the theory suggests you're better off choosing a slower weapon NOW -- just go to the AH and buy any green 2.6 OH, regardless of its stats and what you're replacing. I replaced [Guile of Khoraazi] with some 61 dps Of The Owl axe and saw a modest dps gain. Even if you don't replace your weapon, there's still a decent gain to be had by using WF on your fast OH.

A shaman I used to guild with swears by WF and Frostbrand for PvP, says the slowing effects of the proc are more than worth the drop in dps. I use a 2H in PvP and I'm no good, so IDK.

As for shields -- I do use water shield but i'm not religious about keeping it up because I don't see that big of a gain in most fights. I know it can be measurable in some raid situations -- that's why i put it up -- but overall it's not going to make or break a fight, just push off the need to down a pot.

And any way you look at it, +15% to LS is 2 talent points better wasted elsewhere.
#1871SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Late reply as I was out all day registering for wedding gifts.

For those saying water shield doesn't tick in any fight, every SSC/TK parse that I've got shows it going off 19-25 times per boss fight - That's between 6-9 refreshes of the shield during the fight and around 2k mana returned.

I'm just gonna lay it all out here - if you're claiming otherwise, you're being damned silly and defending a really stupid point. Water Shield is a fantastic raid ability for enhance shaman, period. Lightning shield is great too, I've started using it recently and it procs just as frequently I've found.
#1872SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Paradox
hi, i'd like some opinion on belts.

I currently have the option of getting belt of the black eagle or belt of deep shadow crafted, i'm currently using the epic lv70 honour-bought belt.

unbuffed I have 1436 AP, 155Hit, 29.28% crit, I think the deep shadow belt is the superior option (mostly for the extra +hit), but i'd like some input before I dump 20 primals into it.

thanks, also great thread.. read it every day. (apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this, I just don't know where else to go)

black eagle
crit: 0.68 + 0.12 + 0.77 + 0.18 = 1.75%
AP: 66 + 8 + 8 = 82

deep shadow
crit: 1.28 + 0.12 = 1.4%
AP: 66 + 8 + 8 = 82
Hit: 1.14%

(this is including the suggested gems in the first post)

Last edited by Paradox : 08/26/07 at 12:27 AM.
#1873SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Deep Shadow is easily superior to Black Eagle. The question at this point for SSC/TK level gear would be Deep Shadow vs. One-Hundred Deaths. We're pretty much waiting for some research to finish up on the effect of weapon skill.
#1874SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gulvan
I currently use the ashtongue rep trinket and I can verify that it procs around 75-85%. If a SS is dodged or missed the rate lowers. During a sharaz attempt I checked the buff, and it was up all the time except once over a 3min(or so) attempt except of course when it was dodged, parried(lol sharaz) or missed. Just letting you know my experience.
#1875SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3mek
Originally Posted by Malan
For those saying water shield doesn't tick in any fight, every SSC/TK parse that I've got shows it going off 19-25 times per boss fight - That's between 6-9 refreshes of the shield during the fight and around 2k mana returned.
Water shield is fickle, and there's no rhyme or reason as to what will or will not proc it. Some fights with heavy scripting (eg. Kael) will proc it randomly and constantly, even when you're not being hit; other fights, like Lurker, will completely refuse to proc it, despite all the AOE damage you're taking. It's damn random, but it definitely procs frequently enough to be worth casting, regardless of the instance you're in.
#1876SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Desall
I agree with water shield (and the others by association) being fickle.

I personally much prefer a fight like Vashj, Bloodboil where you clearly notice getting hit and can replace the shield accordingly.

On fights like Kael'Thas or Illidan I am not starving for mana yet charges get consumed all the time for no apparant reason. Often without me needing the mana.
Then there is Shahraz who drains all my mana but seldom procs the shield.

I'd love the shield if it wasn't so annoying to track.
Earth shield is a bit nicer in that it has sufficient charges to not require constant monitoring.
#1877SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I use PowerAuras (and when its done, the next version is Avion on Ace2). When I'm in combat and do not have either lightning or water shield active, I get a pulsing blue shield icon that appears under my char, alerting me to refresh the shield. Useful for all sorts of other things too - I also have it set to show a timer for the remaining time on SR and Bloodlust.
#1878SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Malan
I use PowerAuras (and when its done, the next version is Avion on Ace2). When I'm in combat and do not have either lightning or water shield active, I get a pulsing blue shield icon that appears under my char, alerting me to refresh the shield. Useful for all sorts of other things too - I also have it set to show a timer for the remaining time on SR and Bloodlust.
Yeah, if you can't keep track of it mods will do it for you. But it's just as easy to pay attention to the balls spinning around your toon. :-P

At least we can agree that no matter what shield you choose, you should at least be keeping a shield up. It's silly not to.
#1879SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
unbuffed I have about 1436 AP, 155Hit, 29.28% crit, and even on fights like morogrim i'm coming last on dps and the most in threat, see screenshot here.

i'm doing SS+flame shock+earth shock+fire nova totem rotation as suggested in the first post.. but I just can't seem to do anymore damage.. really what's wrong? Im starting to think the "low hit' thing really isn't true cause maybe with more i'd be doing much more damage?

i'm on EU if anyone wants to check my armoury...any advice would be appreciated.
#1880SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Imaril
Originally Posted by Paradox
unbuffed I have about 1436 AP, 155Hit, 29.28% crit, and even on fights like morogrim i'm coming last on dps and the most in threat, see screenshot here.

i'm doing SS+flame shock+earth shock+fire nova totem rotation as suggested in the first post.. but I just can't seem to do anymore damage.. really what's wrong? Im starting to think the "low hit' thing really isn't true cause maybe with more i'd be doing much more damage?

i'm on EU if anyone wants to check my armoury...any advice would be appreciated.

A lot of this on Morogrim is ueually AE effects from the Murloc stages (The main reason your rogues are probably so high up is Blade Flurry). Try filtering your meter to only damage done to Morogrim, you'll probably see quite different results. I'm usually top 5 at the very least when sorted that way, though 11-13th counting in the casters' aoe and warrior/rogue WW/BF/etc.

The same will be true for any fight where there are multiple targets. If you have a focus target, filter your meters for that to see your overall performance vs others on the same mob.
#1881SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Imaril
A lot of this on Morogrim is ueually AE effects from the Murloc stages (The main reason your rogues are probably so high up is Blade Flurry). Try filtering your meter to only damage done to Morogrim, you'll probably see quite different results. I'm usually top 5 at the very least when sorted that way, though 11-13th counting in the casters' aoe and warrior/rogue WW/BF/etc.

The same will be true for any fight where there are multiple targets. If you have a focus target, filter your meters for that to see your overall performance vs others on the same mob.
thanks for that, I put what you said on SWstats.. and I was suprised by the results

and all this time I thought I wasn't contributing anything and doing very poor damage..

thanks, I feel a lot better now
#1882SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hidden
Originally Posted by Imaril
A lot of this on Morogrim is ueually AE effects from the Murloc stages (The main reason your rogues are probably so high up is Blade Flurry). Try filtering your meter to only damage done to Morogrim, you'll probably see quite different results. I'm usually top 5 at the very least when sorted that way, though 11-13th counting in the casters' aoe and warrior/rogue WW/BF/etc.

The same will be true for any fight where there are multiple targets. If you have a focus target, filter your meters for that to see your overall performance vs others on the same mob.
The whole damage in a fight counts as it needs to be done. Filtering to only damage done to your target you filter away half the boss fight and/or raid and I wouldn't be too proud of being top 5 when I filter away every caster in the raid because they have different targets in the boss fight.
#1883SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Hidden
The whole damage in a fight counts as it needs to be done. Filtering to only damage done to your target you filter away half the boss fight and/or raid and I wouldn't be too proud of being top 5 when I filter away every caster in the raid because they have different targets in the boss fight.
Nobody is asking what you are 'proud of', the guy needs to be able to compare himself against other melee DPS.
#1884SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Hidden
Originally Posted by Malan
Nobody is asking what you are 'proud of', the guy needs to be able to compare himself against other melee DPS.
So cutting your data to the parts you're good at only makes a fair comparison? If the Rogues deal damage with Blade Flurry, you can't just cut it out as it's part of their class.

However I wouldn't care too much about fights as Tidewalker anyway, Watery Graves are totally random and can have a big influence on total damage done.

Last edited by Hidden : 08/26/07 at 5:25 PM.
#1885SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Timmervargen
Originally Posted by Hidden
So cutting your data to the parts you're good at only makes a fair comparison? If the Rogues deal damage with Blade Flurry, you can't just cut it out as it's part of their class.
What Malan is trying to say is that, in order to gauge how well one does on a particular fight one needs to compare with someone doing the same task. In the case at hand, melee against other melee. Meters are a good thing, if you analyze the data correctly.
#1886SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sashiel
Of course this is all ignoring your buffing contribution to those same melee dps you're being compared to.
#1887SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
To those who say water shield is useless because we have plenty of mana and don't need more:

Unless you can sustain shocking every cooldown while doing a fire nova/searing rotation, or shocking every cooldown while twisting WF/GoA. you are not spending mana at your full potential. Barring some theoretical gear level at which you're casting every GCD and still not running oom, you always have ways to convert more mana into more damage.



I use water shield because of abilities that trigger shields but don't return a mob as the source. Pre-nerf Gruul used to trigger my shields a couple seconds before every hurtful strike. Presumably the script checking to see if I was in range constituted a hostile action against me. If I had water shield up, I regained mana. If I had lightning shield up, I lost a lightning shield charge without dealing any damage to Gruul.

This seems to happen frequently with scripted environmental damage. I don't think I've yet seen a "void zone" type ability (Smoldering Earth, Flame Patch, Toxic Spores, or whatever) that shows up in the combat log as coming from the boss.
#1888SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Hmm.. fire nova/searing rotation? Explain please?
(I mean, I get the rotation. Explain the benefit of such for dmg per mana)
#1889SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Malan
Explain the benefit of such for dmg per mana
There isnt any DPM advantage, just consider it the shaman's 'arcane blast'. He just saying that you should never have 'too much mana', just 'exactly enough' mana. Though we all know reality is different. (a lot of factors cant be predicted)
#1890SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan
Hmm.. fire nova/searing rotation? Explain please?
(I mean, I get the rotation. Explain the benefit of such for dmg per mana)
Well, a fire nova/searing rotation does more damage per time than just searing totem, not that that's really news to anyone reading this thread.

I'm not trying to make a case that a fire totem rotation is better damage per mana than shocking or totem twisting or whatever else. I'm just saying you can use it as a way to convert excess mana into more damage, such as, possibly, the mana you might gain from water shield.

Edit: poster above me hit the nail on the head.

Last edited by Lujaar : 08/27/07 at 2:20 AM.
#1891SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Hedin
Originally Posted by Paradox
unbuffed I have about 1436 AP, 155Hit, 29.28% crit, and even on fights like morogrim i'm coming last on dps and the most in threat, see screenshot here.

i'm doing SS+flame shock+earth shock+fire nova totem rotation as suggested in the first post.. but I just can't seem to do anymore damage.. really what's wrong? Im starting to think the "low hit' thing really isn't true cause maybe with more i'd be doing much more damage?

i'm on EU if anyone wants to check my armoury...any advice would be appreciated.
1. Hey, you had about 40K aggro to go just get some [Haste Potion]
2. Try to use Tranq and [Prism of Inner Calm] if you are close to tanking :-)
PS. Last night on Anetheron (only boss) I got 1200DPS and was 1st in Damage just because I used [Haste Potion] and [Drums of Battle] every 2 min and Tranq+Heroism for last 20% hp.

Last edited by Hedin : 08/27/07 at 3:22 AM.
#1892SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
fire nova is just a mana dump. It is not efficient in any way, but it does do more damage.
#1893SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Is [Prism of Inner Calm] really worth a trinket slot for us? I might have a chance to get it since we have Vashj on farm now, but I don't know if I can justify it to the raid?
#1894SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
If your buffed crit rate is over 30% (can't imagine why its not) the Prism is worth a 10% threat reduction. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to justify it, hunters and rogues won't want it, and mages/locks probably won't be super excited about it.
#1895SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by Paradox
Is [Prism of Inner Calm] really worth a trinket slot for us? I might have a chance to get it since we have Vashj on farm now, but I don't know if I can justify it to the raid?
If there are any fights where you can pull agro, void reaver for example, it is better to drop a DPS trinket for agro reduction than it is to stack more DPS. If you can DPS full out without ever having to worry about pulling agro on a fight then it is better to stack as much DPS as possible.

So, to answer your question, sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. So pick it up if you can.
#1896SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nevryn
+hit

I was just curious as to why the Rigid Dawnstone(+8 hit rating gem) is "almost always the wrong answer for enhancement shamans". I was under the impression that our hit% cap was the same as rogues at 24.8%. Because of that assumption the majority of my gear is loaded with +hit gems. I was just hoping that you could explain the reasoning behind it, or if it has already been covered in this thread, point me in the right direction. Thanks.

~Nev
#1897SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hidden
The [Prism of Inner Calm] is a pure Fury Warrior and Enhancement Shaman item and should go to the one of them that usually has the most aggro problems in the guiild.
If other damage dealers think they need it they must be doing something terribly wrong.

Edit: @Nevryn: A quote from the original post:
Itemization - Stat Weights
Extensive modeling, simulation, and empirical testing by Disquette (post), Pater (post), and Tornhoof (post) have produced a generally agreed-upon set of numbers for determining the items which produce the highest DPS in a raid environment. The average of the most reliable closed-form model and iterative simulations have produced the following set of attack power equivalency valuations (AEP), for use in manual calculations or programs such as Lootzor or Pawn:

Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings)
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings)
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Hit rating is much worse than Crit rating and/or Strength so the Hit rating gem is much worse than the Crit rating and/or Strength gem.
#1898SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
You are going to get killed for asking something answered in the 1st post.

However I am going to try to help because it seems like we are not doing a good job of educating people on the mechanics.

Our damage can crudely be estimated as
50% white auto attack
30% windfury yellow
10% stormstrikes yellow
10% shocks.

Strength and AP are great stats because they directly improve 90% of our damage (all but shocks.) Furthermore these stats can be acquired on the cheap.

Crit also improves 90% of our damage but requires~ 22 rating points to improve 1%. The benefit is similar to AP but the cost is marginally higher (reference this thread for evidence here) making crit and agility our second preferred stat.

+hit only directly improves our white damage (and in a greatly diminished capacity wf damage) If you approximate 1% hit as improving ~55% of our damage it costs 16 rating points for that benefit. Or 16 rating points for a 0.55% baseline dps gain. Those same 16 rating points converted to crit rating = 16rating pts /22 rating pts per crit = .727% crit for 90% of our damage = .727 * .9 = .65% gain. So the same rating points put into crit yielded a 0.65% gain as opposed to 0.55% for hit.

This is very crude but you can how breaking our dps into types shows pretty quickly which stats work best for us.

Also for demonstration previously haste was similar to hit. It only directly improved white damage but it was very cheap. 10 rating points for 1% haste on 50% of our damage. So 10 rating points = 0.50% baseline damage increase. Those same 10 into crit yielded 10/22 = .454 * 90% of our damage = 0.4% gain per 10 crit rating points. So clearly haste was great because it was an amazing bargain. Now though haste costs the same as hit and is a 3rd rate stat for us.

Again these numbers are CRUDE. But this methodology can help you work your way through how the stats affect your character. You should still consult all of the data in this thread but it is very easy to ballpark estimate some of these stats as they have very different impacts on our character.
#1899SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
That's a good summary berg, I'll reference that in the OP.
#1900SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nevets_69
Thanks for the explanation, I've been wondering a little bit exactly why hit was so undervalued. That helps a lot.

The one thing I do notice though, is that you don't consider the effect that +hit has on increasing your chance to proc WF. A missed attack can not proc WF. I know this was the original thinking that a lot of poeple had, and lead to many people stacking +hit up to the cap. But is there not a threshold of hit rating where the excessive misses start to affect your WF damage as well as just your white damage?

Would appreciate an answer if someone has already looked at this.
#1926SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Rob, I believe the oft quoted 36% is a remnant of having 2 weapons with a 20% chance, minus the chances lost due to cooldown. I seriously doubt that a different test number is used when dual wielding.
Nope, a different test number is used when dual wielding AND both weapons are enchanted with the same rank of Windfury, according to Disquette and other testers. Any eligible swing outside of CD has a 36% chance to proc WF which leads to an overall proc rate of ~17-18% with appropriately slow weapons.
You seem to misunderstand the hit table a bit, too. There is a single roll per attack and it is compared to a table of all possible outcomes. Crit is merely a special case of hit on this table.
I assure you, I'm very familiar with the attack table. Are you familiar with the fact that rogue special attacks (and it is commonly assumed therefore all "yellow" attacks such as Stormstrike and Windfury) use a two-roll system, completely separate from the normal "white" attack table, which first rolls to determine if the attack hit and then rolls to determine if it crit? I'm asking if we have shown that WF uses a two-roll system, or if we have shown that it uses a one-roll system (attack table).

Last edited by Rob : 08/27/07 at 8:05 PM. Reason: clarity
#1927SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Rob
I assure you, I'm very familiar with the attack table. Are you familiar with the fact that rogue special attacks (and it is commonly assumed therefore all "yellow" attacks such as Stormstrike and Windfury) use a two-roll system, completely separate from the normal "white" attack table, which first rolls to determine if the attack hit and then rolls to determine if it crit? I'm asking if we have shown that WF uses a two-roll system, or if we have shown that it uses a one-roll system (attack table).
Pretty sure I've seen a WF crit partially blocked, so that makes it a 2roll system. Stormstrike hmmm.. as far as I can recall, either the first hit misses/dodge/parry, or else both hit and I've never seen any partial mitigation on it, which makes it a rather unique mechanic, since it appears to have a single attack table-like decision for if it hits, then the 2 hits that result from that single attack table roll both have a chance to crit independantly (a second roll each?) and yet appears unable to be partially blocked on a crit (I may be wrong on that, but can't recall ever seeing it happen)
#1928SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Assumption so far has been that SS works like Mutilate since it's basically the same mechanic albeit with different bonuses. I'm not a rogue so I don't know if Mutilate has the same "one miss roll" mechanic, but I think it does, and this seems like a fairly safe assumption, so really I'm only interested in WF insofar as I saw people questioning whether or not WF was a two-roll attack.
#1929SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I just checked a random WWS parse (including trash for a 4 hr raid) and while I have a number of WF attacks "partially blocked" I had zero Stormstrikes partially blocked.
Here's the parse I looked at. 17 WF partial blocks, no SS blocks.
#1930SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ayror
First time poster here

Great information. I have learned more than I could imagine about an Enhancement Shaman through this thread.

I did notice the little graph of the MH 2.6 OH 1.5 and how it affected windfury. I found myself in a bind when I was reading up on the Syphon of Nathrezim and could not find any information on shamans that wielded a Dragonstrike in their MH with this in their OH. For those that wonder how the 2.8 OH affects windfury, I made this little graph up comparing the MH2.7/OH2.8 and the MH2.7/OH2.6 set-ups. This is based on which weapon will hit the mob first after the 3 second windfury cooldown. Also note this is scaled down to 1 second.

Edit: Graph down due to major flaw don't listen to me yet!

I'm fairly sure I got everything right. Please correct/criticize me on this!

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 11:43 AM.
#1931SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Was that based on actual in-game test results?
#1932SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Timmervargen
One thing that I noticed which strikes me as odd. In the 2.7/2.6 graph, shouldn't the main hand still get the first chance to proc, since there is no swing delay for the very first swing of combat? Provided that you start auto attacking after you enter melee range.

Edit: Same thing in the 2.7/2.8 one, First hit comes after a full swing timer. It should start with the first swings at 0 seconds.
#1933SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Originally Posted by Timmervargen
One thing that I noticed which strikes me as odd. In the 2.7/2.6 graph, shouldn't the main hand still get the first chance to proc, since there is no swing delay for the very first swing of combat? Provided that you start auto attacking after you enter melee range.
True. But I modeled my graph off the 2.6/1.5 graph in the first post. He started the WF cooldown on the 1.5 second strike.
#1934SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Probably my fault. The graph I made wasn't necessarily to illustrate from the beginning of combat, just showing how the cycle ends up. I can fix that later I suppose.
#1935SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Originally Posted by Malan
Was that based on actual in-game test results?
This is based on theory if windfury were to proc after every 3 second cooldown. Truthfully what is shows is what weapon would strike next after the 3 second cooldown is up.
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
I'm gonna go model it with WF procing right off the beginning and see if the results change any. brb lol
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
If you want to make a better one to replace the one I made, be my guest.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
If your talkin about reworking your 2.6/1.5 set-up I think I could whip somethin up for ya :P. But in no way am I tryin to out-do you good sir :P
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
I didn't get to see the first one but how do you plan to account for Flurry? The 3 charges vs 2 swing cycle may makes all this futile... Are you assuming Flurry is always UP (or always down)?
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is probably best to model it with flurry since flurry will up most of the time.
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ayror
I'll make up a formula right now that will calculate Flurry with the model I just reworked.

Edit: The formula is proving to be more work than I first thought. This will take a little more time.

Edit2: Just doing some quick math and unofficially checked numbers, I'm showing that for every first strike cycle (cycle = the time between when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit at the same time until the next time when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit toghther again) that for every time 1 MH hit turns into an OH hit, an OH hit in the cycle turns into a MH hit. More calculations show that you would need over 13 mins of straight, non-intueruppted melee dps to have a cycle that only switches a MH hit to an OH hit. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty boring to me!

To show what I mean by a cycle, I'll put up one reworked graph...so I don't confuse anyone.



Don't worry about the 7.7, that graph isn't totally finished.

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 3:09 PM.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
Head Enchants

Hey, great stuff in here.

I was browsing some other shaman around and I noticed one of them went with the Glyph of the Outcast (37.4 AEP) over the Glyph of Ferocity (56.4 AEP).

I didn't see mention of head enchants in the itemization portion of the OP. I'm sure it boils down to preference but from a pure DPS standpoint I'd go with Ferocity.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would tend to agree with you on that. The intellect on the Outcast enchant isn't really value added, whereas the Hit rating on the Ferocity is.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Maybe he wasn't CE Revered, because Glyph of Ferocity is straight-up better.

Also, it might just be me, but I don't understand that graph. Are you saying that it takes 13m to get an extra MH attack in eligible to proc WF? Wouldn't this vary based on randomness due to WF procs?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Ayror, I'm not getting your graph.. I think your legend isn't complete / good enough.. Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get the difference of tones in the 2 color per hands.. So I have trouble getting when is it that your hand swings.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
The 2 different shades are alternating reset timers for the swings i.e. At the line between the bright color and shaded color is where the swing occurs. The 1st swing reset of each weapon is bright, the 2nd reset is shaded, the 3rd is bright, the 4th is shade, etc.

The red lines are the end of the 3sec hidden cooldown on WF counting from the 1st swing to land after the previous WF CD is gone.

The little squares on top just show which hand is the one that procs WF.

@Ayror, I have 2 comments
1. It is hard to see the color difference of the small squares indicating 'Possible WH hit'. Maybe use the bright versions of the colors instead of the shaded ones
2. The internal cooldown for the swing between the red lines 1 and 2 is 9 squares instead of 10 like all the others. This will mean the OH will be the 1st swing after red line 2.

EDIT: reworded some sentences
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Yea like I said that graph isn't complete at all, and I understand how you guys can be confused.

@Apsalar-
That's is definately one mistake about the red lines, but it's not 9 it's 11 squares ><. Again, it's not fully complete!

@Iol-
The legend is not fully understandable. I'll switch up the colors and such to make it more understandable.

I plan on making a new graph that includes flurry is up the whole time. Not using the graphs, my math has been showing that a MH will hit more than the OH with the syphon in the OH. I'll fix it all up when I can.

Thank you for the feedback, it's helpin me figure out the flaws and pointing me in the right direction in my calculations
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is 11 from the last red line, but 9 from the 1st swing to land after the red line All the others are fine.

Kudos to you for your effort!
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Cele, I bet you lost ~1% of your total dps because your elemental shaman was eating your debuffs. Which is fine; I guarantee he put them to good use.
Not worth to mention. I dont see that as being "ninjad", ele shaman gets much more out of that 20% than my lousy shock. Actually, if there would be some way to make sure that its ele shaman who gets to eat thoes buffs, Id be happy. But currenty rogues poison eats majority of them. Anyone has done some workaround on it? Is there, group-DPS wise, alternative, like shaprening stones or something?
#1951SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Not for the off hands, poisons are all they've got.
#1952SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
I guess rogues could use stones on their OH, but poisons do account for ~4% of their total damage. So that would affect their dps quite a bit.

The question is does how much does the dps of an ele shaman increase if he were the only one to use up SS debuff? Does his damaged gained outweight ~4% loss of the rogue dps?
#1953SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sharmania
Deadly Poison doese not eat SS debuffs
#1954SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hotiedraenei
Where would the Figurine - Felsteel Boar fit in on the different trinkets available? For those of us that are 375 skill Jewel Crafter's and have Revered with Lower City?

Figurine - Felsteel Boar
#1955SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Apsalar
I guess rogues could use stones on their OH, but poisons do account for ~4% of their total damage. So that would affect their dps quite a bit.

The question is does how much does the dps of an ele shaman increase if he were the only one to use up SS debuff? Does his damaged gained outweight ~4% loss of the rogue dps?
If you assume a SS every 10 seconds exactly and the elemental chain casting 2 sec LBs, he'll get 5 casts, 2 of which get a 20% bonus, so an increase of 8% in the long run I think?

@Hotiedranie - wowhead says the boar does about 25 DPS on lvl 69 elites in AV, 30 seconds with a 5 min cooldown. I'd say there's better trinkets available.
#1956SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hotiedraenei
Originally Posted by Malan
If you assume a SS every 10 seconds exactly and the elemental chain casting 2 sec LBs, he'll get 5 casts, 2 of which get a 20% bonus, so an increase of 8% in the long run I think?

@Hotiedranie - wowhead says the boar does about 25 DPS on lvl 69 elites in AV, 30 seconds with a 5 min cooldown. I'd say there's better trinkets available.
What I was mainly asking for was the Equip 68 Attack Power effect on the trinket. I currently have the following Trinkets and I wondering what would be the best pair to use when not PVP or in an Arena.

Trinket - Felsteel Boar
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
[Darkmoon Card: Wrath]
#1957SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Apsalar
The question is does how much does the dps of an ele shaman increase if he were the only one to use up SS debuff? Does his damaged gained outweight ~4% loss of the rogue dps?
If he were the only one to eat the debuffs, definitely. 20% on 2k+ lightning bolts is definitely a significant gain over 20% on instant poison or whatever. Normally that's why you try to flame shock right after storm strike. By the time you get around to earth shock, the debuff should be gone.
#1958SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
Of course 20% extra on a LB is insanely better than 20% extra on poison proc, but looking over a complete fight. Is it worth it to have the rogue not use poison (losing 4-5% total damage done) so that an elemental shaman gets all the debuffs for himself?

i.e. is the damaged gained by an elemental shaman more than 4-5% of a rogue's total damage?
Yes? have the rogue stop using poison
No? keep things as they are

Anyway this is something that should belong in the elemental shaman thread
#1959SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
A: Deadly poison >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instant poison
B: Deadly poison doesn't eat SS charges
C: Scorpid pets poison doesn't eat SS charges

The only thing you have to worry about eating SS charges are horrible rogues using envenom or someone using Romulo's deal for some odd reason.
#1960SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Hmm well that's odd then, I'm looking through some WWS parses and most of my rogues seem to be using Instant on their OH.

WWS lists both Instant and Deadly as being nature dmg, how are we certain that it doesn't eat charges?
#1961SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Pretty sure it's the dot aspect doesn't eat the charges (deadly, scorpid, serpent sting, other random things?). Whereas the direct (instant poison, poison vial, shock, yadda yadda) do**.

I'm not entirely sure why rogues are using instant, it hasn't been better since that new rank of deadly (granted only 1 rogue could use it back then) was released back in aq20.

Last edited by rava : 08/29/07 at 1:55 PM.
#1962SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Deadly is a ticking DoT rather than an instant-damage like Instant. It doesn't eat charges (I see Deadly stacks up all the time and my SS debuff doesn't go away.)
#1963SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Guess I'll ask the rogues whats up with that then =\

Edit - hehe ok so I asked on my guild forum and I'm told that before I joined the rogues apparently could not stop breaking sheep with Deadly so they were told to use Instant as punishment.

Last edited by Malan : 08/29/07 at 1:53 PM.
#1964SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Areus
From what I have noticed, If they are starting a new stack of poision Deadly/Scorpid, it will eat the SS charge and let the overall stack tick for a larger amount until it falls off. At least the hunters in my guild were commenting on liking my SS due to the damage increase they noticed from thier DoT ticks.
#1965SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Jelu
Originally Posted by Areus
From what I have noticed, If they are starting a new stack of poision Deadly/Scorpid, it will eat the SS charge and let the overall stack tick for a larger amount until it falls off. At least the hunters in my guild were commenting on liking my SS due to the damage increase they noticed from thier DoT ticks.
This is probably true, and infact would be pretty awesome as deadly poison can be maintained through an entire fight. If you're lucky enough to get that to happen it's probably the single best use of SS over long fights.

Deadly on the off hand and Instant on the main hand is considered optimal. Deadly on both is wasteful as it suffers from significant diminishing returns once all you're doing is refreshing the stack. There's no point in having Deadly proc every couple of seconds when you only need it to proc once every 12 seconds to keep the timer refreshed.
#1966SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Areus
From what I have noticed, If they are starting a new stack of poision Deadly/Scorpid, it will eat the SS charge and let the overall stack tick for a larger amount until it falls off. At least the hunters in my guild were commenting on liking my SS due to the damage increase they noticed from thier DoT ticks.
Out of curiosity I had one of the rogues come test it with me. With 5 charges of deadly up (no SS debuff on while applying) it ticked for 261, when SS debuff was applied the poison began to tick for 313. So there is no debuff primer requirement for dots to gain the benefit from SS. I also checked to see if having the SS debuff up before poison was applied ate charges, and it did not.

@Jelu, this is an enhancement shaman thread :P You should never have to worry about a MH weapon buff with a shaman in your group.
#1967SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Interesting. So Deadly is getting the benefit of SS but not eating the charge.
#1968SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
Sorry, I should have been clearer earlier.

I know Deadly poison doesn't eat SS charges. However once rogues start getting full T5+ gear with MH/BT weapons they'll start using Anesthetic poison due to threat problem. These do eat up SS charges.
#1969SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
You are silly.
#1970SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Unaz
Originally Posted by Apsalar
Of course 20% extra on a LB is insanely better than 20% extra on poison proc, but looking over a complete fight. Is it worth it to have the rogue not use poison (losing 4-5% total damage done) so that an elemental shaman gets all the debuffs for himself?

i.e. is the damaged gained by an elemental shaman more than 4-5% of a rogue's total damage?
Yes? have the rogue stop using poison
No? keep things as they are

Anyway this is something that should belong in the elemental shaman thread
Well, it is applicable to the use of stormstrike and who we should yell at or try to let eat it.

The thing with rogues or elemental shamans taking it isn't the % of their damage, as SS isn't a scaling buff. It's a fixed amount of charges over a fight, so you have to look at it as essentially the damage per charge. You need to find the hard number of what you're getting out of each stormstrike charge.

So say over a 5 minute fight, you are able to apply stormstrike 30 times. That's 60 charges.

Tossing numbers out the top of my head for easy math:
Instant poison = 200 damage
Earth shock = 600 damage (rounding down, resists etc)
Lightning Bolt = 1200 damage (on the very low end, especially with the crit bonus and such)

You have 60 charges and want to use them for maximum damage to the boss, not maximum damage for whoever's meters:

Instant Poison = 40*60 = 2400
Earth Shock = 120*30 = 3600 (assuming you'll only ever get one charge off of most of yours)
Lightning Bolt = 240*60 = 14400 (assuming no crits)

So you really, really don't want your rogues eating stormstrike. Not ever, even with the shaman shocking they're taking away from damage.

The deadly poison thing is probably worthwhile though over the course of a fight, need to figure out exactly how it works. On application, or do the ticks actually increase/decrease in damage while the buff is on/off?

Edit: Woops, did 10% instead of 20%.

Last edited by Unaz : 08/29/07 at 5:33 PM.
#1971SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Unaz
The deadly poison thing is probably worthwhile though over the course of a fight, need to figure out exactly how it works. On application, or do the ticks actually increase/decrease in damage while the buff is on/off?
Look up 3 posts?
#1972SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
If rogues switch from poison to sharpening stones, that is not 4% damage lost - sharepening stone does also add dps But will monitor their use of deadly then.

Our ele shaman LB average is 2,5k damage, 20% of that is 500. Having hard times believing that anything else could get 1k extra dps per 10 sec from that buff.
#1973SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Unaz
So if the stormstrike debuff being applied any time over the duration of the dot effects the damage while the buff is active, should nobody eat the last stormstrike debuff?

If the difference on a 5 stack is 313-261=52, then over that same 5 minute period you would have 100 ticks on a 3 second cycle (is it a 3 second dot tick?)

52*100 = 5200

Which would put it at:
Instant Poison = 40*60 = 2400
Earth Shock = 120*30 = 3600 (assuming you'll only ever get one charge off of most of yours)
Deadly Poison = 52*100 = 5200 (per rogue)
Lightning Bolt = 240*60 = 14400 (assuming no crits)

So three rogues with full deadly stacks would outweigh a low end elemental shaman.

Edit: Wow I'm terrible at math today.

Last edited by Unaz : 08/29/07 at 5:43 PM.
#1974SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Unaz
If the difference on a 5 stack is 313-261=55 (although I get 52.2 from adding 20% to 261...), then over that same 5 minute period you would have 100 ticks on a 3 second cycle (is it a 3 second dot tick?)
He had 4/5 vile poisons, my bad for not mentioning it in the first place. 225 base x 116% vile = 261, 261 x 120% stormstrike = 313.2. For a rogue lacking the talent it's 225x120% = 270 (45 extra damage) per tick.
#1975SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Toots Hepcat
Last night I took a trip to Karazhan with a lot of melee. We had a prot warrior, an arms/fury warrior, a feral druid, two rogues and myself. Remains were a hunter, two priests and a paladin.

After some well-played nagging, I got the RL to push the paladin out of the melee group (c'mon, what good is Devotion Aura when you're likely to get one-shotted anyway). We wound up with the druid, myself, the rogues and the prot warrior in the melee group. I decided not to push my luck, but I felt kind of bad for the arms/fury warrior in the ranged/healing group. He's pretty well geared and with group buffs he probably could have been at the top of the DPS list. Instead, he was towards the bottom.

How much threat do you suppose the prot warrior was gaining by being in our group and gaining windfury, SoE and 5% crit? Does this outweigh the DPS we missed by not buffing our arms warrior (and gaining Battle Shout)? And am I wrong about the use of auras?

As it stands, we had no DPS or tanking issues, but considering this group is going to be together again in Kara tomorrow it'd be good to know.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 08/29/07 at 6:01 PM.
#2001SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
It's 96 aep average. I think it used to be assumed 30% uptime, if you look at 26.6% it's 313.76x.266=83.46 average aep.
#2002SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Zerath
I built a basic spreadsheet to help me see the AEP for items, but, how do you factor in procs? I.E. Dragonstrike = 212haste rating*1.48 = 313.76aep, right? The issue with that - it's not constant. If you use the search tool (NO WAY!) there are several references to Dragonstrike being 96AEP... how are people getting this? Dragonstrike has a rough 26.6% proc from a 33.3 minute testing (this factors in some where but not sure where).

Everything else is simple for getting AEP, straight constant numbers are simple but procs are where I'm getting confused. If anyone could help, that would be great. Please and thank you.
You get those values by factoring in the proc uptime, there's an older thread with some equations for it if you search for "uptime".

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2003SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Thank you Rava and Malan.

Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:

If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
#2004SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Zerath
Thank you Rava and Malan.

Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:

If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
I wouldn't assume 30%, I think that is just what original testing showed. If someone actually tested for 33 mins and saw a 26.6% uptime that's about as accurate as you can get. As far as the Wicked Edge vs Dragonstrike argument, I really don't know. The haste nerf sucks and I'm probably going to be dropping Dragonstrike if/when they buff BT weapons as they did SSC/TK.
#2005SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Zerath
Thank you Rava and Malan.

Now, back to the awesome Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge of the Planar:

If Dragonstrike is really ~25% proc rate, wouldn't it be better to push for Wicked Edge instead? It being almost 11aep more. Granted, the proc on DS is insane and would increase white damage....Should I just assume 30% proc rate as Rava explained from here on out?
It is not proc rate, it is proc upkeep time. Proc rate for Dragonstrike is 9% = 2ppm*2.7speed/60sec. AEP value of Dragonstrike was calculated as (2ppm * 10 sec / 60) * 313.7AEP = 33.3% upkeep time * 313.7 AEP = 105 AEP but this is not taking overlapping procs into account. It was assumed that overlapping leads to 30.6% upkeep time that leads to 30.6%*313.7 = 96 AEP. If you have 26.6% upkeep time - it becomes 83 AEP for you. If you will put on some haste items the upkeep time will be higher and AEP value of the item for you will be higher.

This happens to all items with procs - their AEP value depends on how much haste you have. Similarly, AEP value for 1 haste rating depends on how many items with procs you have.
#2006SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?

My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall.
#2007SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Unless your weapon speed + passive haste gear + flurry falls between that theoretical dps loss range, I wouldnt be worried.

Of course you can speed yourself up with temporary buffs to that range and even way beyond, fastest i have seen my 2.60 weapons hit was 0.78, (I´m troll with berserking), but its just temporary buffs and that gap is way too narrow to worry about with temporary buffs.
When I get my double mongoose up with the Haste proc off DST combined with flurry I sit on like 1.41 atk speed :o
#2008SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
Haste + Armor Stacking

I have been trying to determine whether stacking haste + armor reduction is the way to go once you hit 33% crit unbuffed... trying to formulate an excel sheet but I am finding it terribly random for each boss encounter.

The main Problems is that each creature will have it's own armor value in which ignore armor (IA) & we won't know the exact armor value until extensive formulating of the each creatures armor type.

I will post more once I did finishing my research (1 week off college = More time spent theroycrafting).

Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit?

__________________


You never know, If you never try.
#2009SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Bragor
Main concern is... Is it worth it stacking haste & armor reduction after reaching a certain amount of AP/Crit?
Haste is definitely worth increasing if you already have a lot of AP/Crit. Refer to cube/square examples several pages back. Armor reduction - well, it depends not only on what stats you already have but what boss you are fighting against.
#2010SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
Here's a thought on how to calculate a value (something we can at least input into Pawn) for -armor on items. We all know that the actual value of the stat scales higher as the base armor of the boss/mob in question decreases. We could just find the lowest possible value of the stat (i.e. highest armor bosses/mobs) and just use that, at least to give us a baseline for consideration of how good the stat is. Thoughts?
#2011SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Keisos
First time post here, I was wondering what the benefits / mechanics behind using two 2.8 speed weapons would be, I looked through the topic for a while, but after spending some time doing so, I realized the chances of me finding what I was looking for was going to be a needle in a haystack.

I've seen a lot of information regarding the use of a 2.6 - 2.8 speed weapon together in different combinations; but haven't seen much regarding the use of two weapons of identical speed, to be more specific, Using x2 Syphon of the Nethrezim vrs. Using 1 and a Rising Tide together.

It would make a lot of sense, the ability to get both weapons to be as close to 1.5 speed using haste, the extra flurry tick from Identical Speed, and the maximum damage from Stormstrike, but I was wondering, all the posts I've seen that mention using identical speed weapons never have it as their focal point, I was wondering if their was a conversation on it regarding shamans specifically (I read the flurry post, but this forum hasn't talked about it at all from what I've seen) Maybe I'm missing something obvious, are there any hidden side effects to using them as opposed to mixing weapon speeds (Less Mainhand flurry consumption from using a faster weapon, wf desyncing your weapon speeds?)

I guess what I'm asking is, between another syphon or rising tide, which should I pick up as my next weapon and why, any help with this is extremely appreciated.

Shikka asked this question in post #914, but it only had one or two directly corresponding replies, and I didn't grasp why matching weapon speed seemed like such a bad idea.
#2012SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Zerath
So, in the situation of not having any Haste items to be able to increase the upkeep percentage, would it be better off going with the Wicked Edge?

My situation - working towards either Planar Edge or Dragonstrike. The equipment on my toon consists of Greens/Kara/high end blues. I may never see Hyjal or BT, but getting vortexes shouldn't be an issue in the coming month(s). Trying to break down each of the main blacksmithing weapons to see which is better overall.
For my decision, I looked at the alternatives to each weapon. Dragonstrike's haste proc is fairly unique, with no other available mainhand for Shaman. Meanwhile, Wicked Edge of the Planes has competition from any weapon with comparable stats/DPS, such as a Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver.

I'm not sure how much the proc will be worth after the haste nerf, but I've found the maces to be superior to weapons with higher DPS/better stats (memory's a bit hazy, but I think it was [Drakefist Hammer] vs. [Fool's Bane]).

Also... I love procs. When I pop Bloodlust, I'm almost guaranteed to get my mace to proc, which almost guarantees my DST to proc, which almost guarantees double Mongoose. Then I trinket, pop a trinket, haste pot and get a friendly LWer to pop drums of battle, all of which get additional gains from being active at the same time.
#2013SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
has anyone done any calculations for the upcoming haste nerf as far as trinkets go?

Our guild is currently progressing through SSC/TE (Al'ar first kill tonight!) and i'm wondering if I should still be saving DKP for that possible Dragonspine drop or if I can move onto Tsunami Talisman.

Also wondering where [Dragonstrike] will rank after the haste change, as well as OH comparison's since all of SSC/TE weapons are getting buffed soon as well.
#2014SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I was thinking about how the haste nerf will affect my weapon choice, There is no way im switching to axes for wicked edge, for a start I cant be arsed to do 10 heroics for badges, then there is the little matter of going into ssc/tk which there is no point to do so for my guild.

So im at the point where I think perhaps I would change my MH (Dragonstrike) to a 2nd syphon if it ever drops. But givent he lack of stats on the syphon I thought about Rising tides, how does the difference between top end range (313 vs 365) and the 0.2 slower speed compare.

The stats on rising tide are obviously very nice and would give me an extra 42 hit and 88 if I was duel wielding them, with the loss of the syphon proc (pretty poor imo) and whatever the difference is between the speeds and top end.

Is this even measurable? (is that even a word?)
#2015SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Dukanull
@stig- rising tide is unique, i would kill to dual wield them as an orc.

My GUESS would be two syphons beating out pretty much any other weapon combo post 2.2, but just a guess.

__________________
Vindication-wow.com

Last edited by Dukanull : 08/31/07 at 5:37 AM.
#2016SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Dukanull
@stig- rising tide is unique, i would kill to dual wield them as an orc.

My GUESS would be two syphons beating out pretty much any other weapon combo post 2.2, but just a guess.
Hmm, has it always been unique?
#2017SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strawberry
A specific question

Hey guys,

I suppose i'm the equivalent of a long time listener, first time caller here

I've been keenly reading the discussion of relative weapon speeds for shamans, which has really helped push my DPS up. Now, i've run into a specific issue which confuses me, as I'm bloody awful at maths.

My guild's got to the point where Khara is a farm-fest, where the people going are only looking for maybe one item from one boss. Thus, the other night, despite a total lack of Fool's bane and Decapitator, I walked away with Malchazeen in my trousers. Exciting. A 91 DPS dagger with a 1.8 speed. You'd think that would be good for a Melee DPS person. But, as I read the forum, apparently not.

My question is this - if i put Malchazeen in my MH, and my Boggspine knuckles in my OH, will my DPS go up from my current MH - Stormreaver warblades?

The whole weapon speed thing leaves me deeply confused I must say. As far as i can tell slow = best for OH & MH. But will a fast MH be per se bad? Especially if it's replacing a blue with 15 less DPS?

Also, i'm on the cusp of getting a Runic Hammer - Would Malchazeen MH/Runic Hammer OH be better than Malchazeen/Boggspine or Stormreaver/Boggspine?

Btw, thanks in general for all the hard work on the maths guys. You've done a great job of not only doing the calculations, but also making them easily accesible to the layman. You've enabled me to beat the two other shamans in my guild who insisted flametounge, GoA and + hit were all the best for shamans. They can't argue with being lower down the DPS charts time and again.

Basically, you're great

Strawbs
#2018SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Touf
Your answer's in the first post...read it. It's nicely sectioned for you. I wish all threads had quality maintenance like this.
#2019SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gnus
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Hmm, has it always been unique?
Yes, otherwise two Rising Tides just smash Syphons to dust from DPS side due to poor Syphon proc.
#2020SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strawberry
Touf,

i assume what you mean is the phrase in the first post; "As noted above, damage from WF and SS are not normalized to weapon speed. Slow/Slow will always outperform any combination of Fast/Slow, Slow/Fast, or Fast/Fast when both weapons are imbued with WF."

Presumably, "always" means "always" but it's so incredibly counter-intiutive that I thought I would ask the question. If it does mean "always" then is a 2.6 green better than an epic 1.8 as a Main Hand? for that matter, if "always" means "always" is a 2.6 speed grey mainhand I buy from an anvilmar vendor better than an epic dagger? The posts are very clear on OHs - but MH is a little opaque.

I understand that a slow MH is better for a variety of reasons; Yes, i did read carefully before posting. My question was - in a situation with a 20 DPS difference between a fast weapon and a slow weapon, is it still advantageous to use the slow weapon?

I know this is true for OH, having read the posts but what about for MH? An advanced search for topics on MH speed on the thread reveals little. I'm only asking because I think it's something that is genuinely confusing.
#2021SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
@Strawberry - hold onto the Malchazeen in your bank until the spell dmg talent change comes in 2.3, then if you don't have a better OH by then you can put FT on the dagger and use it. By using the dagger MH you'd gain 15 Weapon DPS, but you'd lose a lot of instant attack damage from WF and SS.

You can always do a 5-10 min test on the blasted lands mobs with each combination to check, I'd put my money on the 2.6 still outpacing the malchazeen though.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2022SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Strawberry
Ah, thanks.

I'll do a test and we'll see. Part of me was hoping someone had already done the legwork, but, meh, i'll have to do some work rather than just be told i'm wrong

Two things -

1.) Is there any reason to test specifically in the blasted lands? Or is that just a long standing joke?

2.)I'll be pleasantly surprised it if the shaman spell damage talent appears in it's hinted at form, but by then a hotfix will mean we'll probably be buffing melee holy priests with GoA and arguing that sentry totem has better synergy with holy fire
#2023SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
The mobs in the blasted lands near the crystals cannot be killed, thats why we use them. Other option is to get a tank and a healer and use a Halaani guard, but that's a bit risky (PvP) and you need to have some nice people willing to help you out.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2024SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?

Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%.
I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots.

What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit?

Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you.
#2025SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Touf
Malan answered most of it.

Basically, if you use a faster weapon, your extra attacks from WF are weaker. With no cooldown, you would get more procs to compensate. However, with a cooldown, you're basically getting a few more procs that are much weaker. The exact dps point a fast weapon would be better is unknown, especially since calculating the effect of the cooldown is...hard.

The OH thing was mentioned because there are already a lot of choices for the MH, but an uninformed shaman might want to use Malchazeen because it feels like an upgrade when OH drops aren't coming from heroics.
#2026SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Paradox
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?

Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%.
I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots.

What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit?

Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you.
Ditch the +hit. It is worth 1.4 AEP per point, and it is worth more in item budget than it is worth to us.
#2027SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Strawberry
Ah ha,

ran the test in the blasted lands -

It went Reflex blades>2.6 speed green>Malchazeen>2.6 Lvl 11 grey hatchet...

The 2.6 speed Lvl11 grey hatchet was behind malchazeen by about 50DPS; alot less than you'd think, looking at the stats, especially when you factor in the Attack power and the little bit of hit Malchazeen should give you.

So Fast weapons = suck

You were absolutely right Malan - if this was a bet you'd have won

Thanks

Last edited by Strawberry : 08/31/07 at 2:18 PM.
#2028SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Its a sad sad reality that we live in.
#2029SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
I think a good addition to the OP would be ring enchant info regarding enhancement; I know for rogues and hunters +4 stats tops +2 weapon damage, after a good half hour of searching I'm still wondering the best one.
#2030SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I'm not an enchanter so I've little personal insight into that, although my hunch would be +4 stats as well.
#2031SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
If +4 Stats is better for Rogues who get comparatively little benefit from the INT and STR and have a faster attack speed to take better advantage of the +2 Weapon Damage, then +4 Stats will be better for Shamans as well.
#2032SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob
If +4 Stats is better for Rogues who get comparatively little benefit from the INT and STR and have a faster attack speed to take better advantage of the +2 Weapon Damage, then +4 Stats will be better for Shamans as well.
That was my initial conclusion, but I wanted to avoid making that assumption right off the bat. I was also hoping to find a conversion of +2 damage into ap, but I'm still searching.
#2033SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
#2034SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Igniter
I was also hoping to find a conversion of +2 damage into ap, but I'm still searching.
It's weapon speed dependent, so it's not a straight conversion.

+weapon damage amount / weapon speed = equivalent DPS
2/2.6 = .75
equivalent DPS * 14 = equivalent AP
10.5 AP

With BoK and UR, 4 stats is a little over 9 AP so the difference is very minimal in terms of raw AP, but there's also benefit from the other stats (namely some crit) that makes +stats a better ring enchant.

Originally Posted by s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
Are you threat capped? Get threat reduction. If you aren't, get Agility.
#2035SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hadera
Originally Posted by s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
I think it depends on your aggro situation. If you're having to sit back on fights so that you won't pull aggro, go for the -2% threat. Malan said in a prior post concerning threat reducing trinkets that a trinket slot is essentially empty if you're having to 'throttle back'. I would think that the same principle applies here.
#2036SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Here's something to ponder: is 1% haste a better glove enchant that +15 STR?

2.2 Haste Rating = 2.2 STR

15.8 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
#2037SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Here's something to ponder: is 1% haste a better glove enchant that +15 STR?

2.2 Haste Rating = 2.2 STR

15.8 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste
It is a very misleading tooltip: it adds enough rating to have been 1% at 60, so it adds 10 haste rating. It's not a percent scalar like Mongoose is.
#2038SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Malan
Itemization - Hit Rating
Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. A good explanation of why can be found here. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
You guys sure do put a lot of thought into this stuff, way more than I ever will. But, I have to say, I've tried running with pure STR/Crit/AGI gear over a heavy hit rating suit and I have not been impressed with the results. Berg postulates that hit rating only effects White damage, and Windfury damage to lesser degree. But, you also can't crit if you miss. As I recall, against targets 3 levels higher than the player, the base chance to miss while Dual Wielding is roughly 24.5%. And correct me if I'm wrong there, it's been a while since I had this all explained to me. given 5% chance to miss, that could potentially reduce damage dealt that was derived from UR and Flurry procs, in addition to missed Windfury procs and crits. Granted, you would have more chance to crit, and do more damage per hit, but unless you can get more crit % increase than you lose in hit % increase, I dont think it would be worth the change.
#2039SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
Well, if you'd like months of actual results instead of theorycraft you're welcome to review my guilds WWS parses. I have possibly the lowest total hit rating of any of the endgame shaman. Also, I don't think anyone is saying to ignore hit rating. You definitely want some. The higher your other stats get, the more important hit rating becomes by comparison.

Strength is the most efficient stat for us, but that doesn't mean it's the only stat we want to focus on. The stat weightings do not tell us to focus entirely on strength. I like to think of it in pie-chart terms. The stat weightings tell us that 40% of our pie should consist of strength, 35% crit rating/agility, and 25% hit rating/haste rating, if that makes sense.

Last edited by Sebudai : 08/31/07 at 7:34 PM.
#2040SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Abrax
But, you also can't crit if you miss.
Assuming you have 9% hit from talents, adding hit rating on your gear will never, ever, EVER* cause you to gain a crit you would not have previously had. I stopped reading after this point, because the rest of your analysis was based on this idea and it's wrong.




* Assuming you are not crit-capped, which nobody is, because Glancing Blows are now only 25% of the hit table, you would have to have something like 60% critical strike chance.
#2041SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
I just noticed the Dragonstrike I was crafting is 2.7 speed, and the Merciless Gladiators Pummeler I have in Offhand is 2.6 speed, how will this difference affect my damage? I currently have Decapitator in main-hand, which is 2.6 speed also. Isn't it very bad to have an offhand faster than the main hand?
#2042SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hadera
Originally Posted by Paradox
I just noticed the Dragonstrike I was crafting is 2.7 speed, and the Merciless Gladiators Pummeler I have in Offhand is 2.6 speed, how will this difference affect my damage? I currently have Decapitator in main-hand, which is 2.6 speed also. Isn't it very bad to have an offhand faster than the main hand?
It is, but 2.6 speed is still considered under the blanket term 'slow'. A 2.7 speed MH and a 2.6 speed OH is a perfectly fine combination; the speed difference is pretty marginal
#2043SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Rob
Assuming you have 9% hit from talents, adding hit rating on your gear will never, ever, EVER* cause you to gain a crit you would not have previously had. I stopped reading after this point, because the rest of your analysis was based on this idea and it's wrong.




* Assuming you are not crit-capped, which nobody is, because Glancing Blows are now only 25% of the hit table, you would have to have something like 60% critical strike chance.
Care to qualify that? Because I fail to see how a 9% increase in hit chance wipes out a 24.5% chance to miss. Seriously, if you know why, then let me know.
#2044SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Abrax
Care to qualify that? Because I fail to see how a 9% increase in hit chance wipes out a 24.5% chance to miss. Seriously, if you know why, then let me know.
It's cos of how the attack table works.. Attack table - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki Basically, if your char sheet says 30% crit, you will crit for 30% of your attacks, not 30% of your hits. if you missed 70% of the time somehow, then you would always get a crit and never see a single non crit hit . The only time you need more hit to improve crit is when you have say 75% miss and 30% crit rat.. you will then crit on 25% of attacks, and miss all the rest. If you added 5% more hit in this case, you would rise to 30% crit rate. (if you added 10% hit, you'd rise to 30% crits, 5% hits, 65% misses).. With a roughly 25% base miss rate while DWing, a 6% dodge rate by bosses and a 25% glancing blow rate on bosses (you can't crit on a glancing either) you have 100 - (25+6+25) = 44% hit rate. Thus without talents you need over 44% crit before you start to need hit to improve your number of crits. With talents, you have +9% more hit already, so you need 53% crit before you require hit to get more crits.

Last edited by Malevolencia : 08/31/07 at 9:42 PM.
#2045SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Abrax
But, you also can't crit if you miss.
When are people going to stop claiming this.

No. That's not how the hit table works. Go to WoWwiki and search for Attack Table. Come back when you've educated yourself on it.
#2046SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ewichern
Originally Posted by Strawberry
Ah ha,

ran the test in the blasted lands -

It went Reflex blades>2.6 speed green>Malchazeen>2.6 Lvl 11 grey hatchet...

The 2.6 speed Lvl11 grey hatchet was behind malchazeen by about 50DPS; alot less than you'd think, looking at the stats, especially when you factor in the Attack power and the little bit of hit Malchazeen should give you.

So Fast weapons = suck

You were absolutely right Malan - if this was a bet you'd have won

Thanks
Another way you can get some quick feedback without a flight to the blasted lands is to use one of the simulators listed in the first post of the thread. According to the sim, as a MH the Malchazeen produced ~20dps less than the Reflex Blades using my stats (for convenience). It wasn't *quite* as bad in the OH, but still a 18-19dps decrease from Boggspine.

It's unfortunate. Would be nice to be able to choose from a wider variety of weapons.
#2047SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
Is the current 202.5 AEP the DST is listed at in the OP taking into account the coming nerf to haste rating? If not, what will the new DST come out to? 148ish? I searched the thread but I couldn't find an answer. Hopefully I'm not a stupid.
#2048SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Is the current 202.5 AEP the DST is listed at in the OP taking into account the coming nerf to haste rating? If not, what will the new DST come out to? 148ish? I searched the thread but I couldn't find an answer. Hopefully I'm not a stupid.
Pretty sure that is the old value. Some quick math 325x2.2x15/60+40=old value (unless I'm doing something wrong? I think I am because my total is coming out at 218.75) where new would = 160.25
#2049SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
That's what my total came out to aswell, so I figured I must be calculating it wrong. I ended up just reducing the haste portion of the total AEP by 33% to account for the nerf, that's where my total comes from.
#2050SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is the old value for DST was a bit on the low side, with 40% uptime(I'd used 1.5 ppm since we didn't have uptime meter) and valuing haste at 2.2(I'd used 2.0 originally) the current version scores a whopping 300 AEP.

The bad news; I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

If my results are an accurate assessment of the proc rate then the new score using 1.48 for haste(which I think is a bit high) would be about 150 AEP. If the lower proc rate had been noted elsewhere I apologize in advance for not seeing it.

ps. The new windfury graphic is terrible.
#2051SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is the old value for DST was a bit on the low side, with 40% uptime(I'd used 1.5 ppm since we didn't have uptime meter) and valuing haste at 2.2(I'd used 2.0 originally) the current version scores a whopping 300 AEP.

The bad news; I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

If my results are an accurate assessment of the proc rate then the new score using 1.48 for haste(which I think is a bit high) would be about 150 AEP. If the lower proc rate had been noted elsewhere I apologize in advance for not seeing it.

ps. The new windfury graphic is terrible.
#2052SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Idioteque
With regard to the weapon choice discussion after the new patch,
would the best bt/hyjal weapon combo be Rising tide main hand and Syphon off, as you gain the benefit with a very marginally faster main hand and you gain the stats from the rising tide.

Any one have any ideas?
#2053SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Idioteque
With regard to the weapon choice discussion after the new patch,
would the best bt/hyjal weapon combo be Rising tide main hand and Syphon off, as you gain the benefit with a very marginally faster main hand and you gain the stats from the rising tide.

Any one have any ideas?
The difference between RT/Syphon, Syphon/RT and Syphon/Syphon is marginal at best, different people achieved different results for the combos.
Technically having the Rising Tide in MH and Syphon in OH is superior over Syphon in MH.
Dual Syphon is fine too. The difference is well below 1% DPS, we're talking ~5 DPS max.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/01/07 at 7:24 AM.
#2054SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
And what is the consensus on DS/Syphon vs Rising tide/Syphon after the patch.

I would have thought the difference marginal but I don't recall any number crunching.
#2055SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Looking for options on the Dragonstrike Mainhand now. After the Haste nurf would it be worth it to get a MainHand that offers Stats ?? More AP/Crit and some hit over the Haste proc on the weapon?
#2056SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
I finished reading the last 20 pages I missed during my vacation and I have some questions/ideas about what Yo! bring up (The AEP value of stats are different in each stat setup).

I'm thinking about an addon what calculates AEP values for every stat based on your current stats and prints the summary in each item's tooltip like Pawn's addon does. Is it possible to create a formula for the values of each stat based on the summary of the character's stats?
#2057SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3ewichern
Originally Posted by jamesf8604@yahoo.com
Looking for options on the Dragonstrike Mainhand now. After the Haste nurf would it be worth it to get a MainHand that offers Stats ?? More AP/Crit and some hit over the Haste proc on the weapon?
I'd be interested in opinions on Drakefist/Dragonmaw/Dragonstrike post-patch as well. I was enhancement up until we started Kara, respecced Resto for a few months of raiding, and I'm back to enhancement trying to get my gear up to snuff.

I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
#2058SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Makesha
Originally Posted by ewichern
I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
I'm really interested in this as well. We sort of had a huge discussion about this in my guild today, and the end result was that we agreed to disagree. Passive stats of Wicked Edge of the Planes vs. Haste proc of Dragonstrike, which is better after the patch? And is it a margin that matters hugely? (I mean, is one like 100 DPS better than the other on average, or are they both good bets for specialization?) I'd figure it out myself, but I'm not good enough at the math to do it..
#2059SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Recently hit 375 BS and just finished making my Dragonmaw today, soon to be a Dragonstrike. I'd be interested in this aswell, *roughly guessing* the haste will just give a bit less haste right? Down to about 15% from 20%? Which is still pretty good I think.. but would be interested in what the number crunchers have to say about it.
#2060SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
hey guys-

I'm lookin for a link that shows the dps increase in group with a shaman in group. Either I'm blind or it isn't in the OP anymore. I think it was the chart that compared the GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can point me in the right direction of the post I'm seeking, it will be greatly appreciated
#2061SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
Originally Posted by Paradox
Recently hit 375 BS and just finished making my Dragonmaw today, soon to be a Dragonstrike. I'd be interested in this aswell, *roughly guessing* the haste will just give a bit less haste right? Down to about 15% from 20%? Which is still pretty good I think.. but would be interested in what the number crunchers have to say about it.
13,45% (new) (2.2)
20,17% (Old) (before 2.2)

i got dragonstrike for long time now and 13.45% haste is enough for me to keep dragonstrike as MH and syphon as OH. no one actully gave answers about how good slower OH is vs slower MH, i think slower OH . tested it myself around 50-100dps more with slower OH in a 10 min mob bashing but again you cant be 100% sure this is why u need alot of shamans to test it
#2062SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Morelis
I've got good news and bad news.

The good news is the old value for DST was a bit on the low side, with 40% uptime(I'd used 1.5 ppm since we didn't have uptime meter) and valuing haste at 2.2(I'd used 2.0 originally) the current version scores a whopping 300 AEP.

The bad news; I just finished testing DST uptime on the PTR(then on live for comparison) and according to my 30min test the proc rate has been lowered substantially. I measured 22.79% uptime over the 30mins. That seemed pretty startling so I repeated the test on the live realms and with identical gear and testing as close to the same as I can manage it scored 41.88%. I 'm sure the sample is small enough for there to be some pretty significant variation, but I'd be surprised if that much of a difference came down to chance.

For the testing I swapped out all my passive haste and haste-proc gear so the haste nerf itself should have a fairly minimal impact in the results. Here's the screenshots:

PTR - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-ptr.jpg
Live - http://grig.shackspace.com/dst-live.jpg

If my results are an accurate assessment of the proc rate then the new score using 1.48 for haste(which I think is a bit high) would be about 150 AEP. If the lower proc rate had been noted elsewhere I apologize in advance for not seeing it.

ps. The new windfury graphic is terrible.
I'd suggest you mention the DST change in Dragonspine Trophy Analysis as well (if it wasn't already mentioned there).
#2063SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drewkrodleman
If you guys find time, I need some advice... For the longest time I stayed with a slow mainhand and a fast offhand for two reasons:
1) Fast offhands were all that were available to me (good ones at least)
2) I did not honestly believe the math

Well my first week of kara I got emerald ripper and was pleasantly delighted. Put mongoose on it and stayed with that for 5 whole weeks. I then realized that my dps was barely scaling with my gear, so I came to these forums saw all the math and theorycrafting and decided to give it a go. So I bought a 2.6 speed LVL 67 63dps mace on the ah for a few gold, and I was absolutely SHOCKED at what happened. I began out damaging people in our guild who are FAR better geared and have much better weapons then me, consitantly (before it was random but I would always be fairly close to the #1). So then I started looking around for better offhands, and I realized that I am basically screwed. Ive become fairly apathetic to really putting a lot of effort into this game, so I realized that arenaing for 10weeks just to get a 97dps offhand, although worth it, may be too much work. I also looked at having runic hammer made, but saw that it was 2.4 speed, and dont really know if itll work well with a 2.6 speed mh.

Any suggestions? Should I just suck it up and try to scrap a decent arena rating and play 10 matches a week for that long just to get it (my guild wont be progressing to The Eye anytime soon), or should I just farm for a week or two, grab enough cash to have someone make runic hammer?

Also, thanks to you guys, I am basically 100% guaranteed a raiding spot as long as I show up because of my mad dps. I like humbling our decently geared fury warrior with my 2 not-as-amazing-weapons-as-his <3
#2064SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Aeolian
To the poster above me, there is a list of off hands in the original post, read it.

And if anyone comes up with some information on the Dragonstrike please post it, personally I'm taking the time before the patch to gather the materials for Wicked Edge. Don't know for sure yet, but I think I may make the switch. Going to play around with Dragonstrike on the PTR and see what happens.

Edit: Blizzard made my off-hand smaller. lol

Last edited by Aeolian : 09/01/07 at 6:28 PM.
#2065SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drewkrodleman
Oh yeah Didnt see that this weapon > this > that > these > those the first time i read the first page.

So I would do well just to quickly make the money and have someone make Runic hammer? Or would it be better to just truly grind out the arena points to get the merc glad one hands?
#2066SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
I'm still asking myself if Rod of the Sun King's slightly increased damage (and 20ap) is worth sacrifing the stats on Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver? I'm not only talking about 19crit- and 10hitrating but also about losing 33stamina.

While I see why Rising Tide and Syphon of the Nathrezim are upgrades (also even Rising Tide is giving me a hard time compared to Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver) Rod of the Sun King looks way weaker to me. Has this been discused yet?
#2067SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Well the main problem with the Rod of the Sun king is that it has a proc that is utterly useless for shamans (Unless blizz changes the proc chance to provide mana).

Would like taking it over the fury warriors then ?

Also, If you have the option of getting the Rod... You have both the rising tide & syphon (Which are both better) Seeing that It's only 2 bosses diffrence & both bosses are easier then kael.

Last edited by Bragor : 09/01/07 at 6:36 PM. Reason: Clarfiying
#2068SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Just did some quick testing on the PTR and Live for overall DPS for a 10 minute period (basically a boss fight) for the Dragonstrike haste proc.

DPS on live showed 995.7 dps with a 27.47% uptime.
DPS on the PTR showed 944.1 dps with a 26.88% uptime.

This cant be taken as a perfect example of the nerf, but it shows it.

- Crit rate was right around 36% for both tests.
- Attack power was the same, no modifiers with the exception of Unleashed Rage.
- Unleashed Rage, Flurry and Lightning Speed proc rates would effect the outcome.
- No shocks were used.
- Grace of Air was the only totem used.

Used Recount, Uptime Meter and WF3sec for tracking purposes. Tried to follow the same "wait for the WF cooldown" rules for Stormstrike that I do during raids, but used it every time it was up.
#2069SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Whoah whoah... what's this about a new windfury graphic?
#2070SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Get on the PTR and play with it. =P

Basically its a darker vortex, its more black then gray, a bit more transparent and swirls up higher.
#2071SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
Hey... Just got back from checking it.

It's like saying "HEY I GOT A WF PROC HERE".

Think I am gonna miss "Hey.. how the hell did you kill me ?" looks in pvp now ;/
#2072SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
So now that I've downloaded Pater's simulator and configured it, I am wondering how exactly I could utilize this to create my own Pawn string based on my gear level and buffs I typically have. Any advice, or in my following of this thread did I miss a how-to at some point?
#2073SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Wowzers
Originally Posted by Aeolian
Get on the PTR and play with it. =P

Basically its a darker vortex, its more black then gray, a bit more transparent and swirls up higher.
The graphic also disappears in the middle of the animation, it looks horrible becuase of that.
#2074SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Kurisu
I'm uploading a video of it at the moment, ill link it in a second.

Windfury.avi - FileFront.com

Last edited by Kurisu : 09/02/07 at 3:47 AM.
#2075SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Freyj
+hit?

I am having a small issue here. I recently got asked by my guild to switch from resto to enhance (yay!), and I found this thread. Its excellent, but I am looking for a hard number answer. What is the minimum +hit for a shaman in MAG\SSC? I have about 153 (dont check my armory ATM, I had to heal for kara this weekend LOL), but thats because I put alot of those Rigid Dawnstones in my gear. About where should I be?
#2076SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Xoya
So now that I've downloaded Pater's simulator and configured it, I am wondering how exactly I could utilize this to create my own Pawn string based on my gear level and buffs I typically have. Any advice, or in my following of this thread did I miss a how-to at some point?
I don't remember it being covered before. What I use is a really simple spreadsheet which I've uploaded:

OpenOffice: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.ods
Excel: http://grig.shackspace.com/enh-pawn.xls

Pretty much just fill in the gray boxes across the top with the stats you want to use then run each step through the sim and record the results in the gray column on the right. It doesn't spit out a properly formatted pawn string and it might have errors but it seems to work. A couple notes, it has the new value for haste, and it doesn't actually calculate the change in mitigation dynamically so the armor stuff is only accurate if you start at 30%. Also, if you don't use any passive haste you'll probably want to ignore it in there.
#2077SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by ewichern
I'm in the process of levelling up blacksmithing, I'm not an Orc, and I'm wondering whether I should go with Axesmith over Hammersmith after the haste (and apparent proc %) changes... any speculation/opinions?
Based on the apparent value of weapon skill (first 5 points = 2-3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-dodge/anti-parry) and the availability of Mace/Axe skill (Mace found on at least one belt right now, Axe on nothing unless you've got the Orc racial), I'd have to say you should go for the mace. (The other advantage here is you can craft a Skillherald for PvP.)
#2078SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3oldmandennis
Originally Posted by Freyj
What is the minimum +hit for a shaman in MAG\SSC?
READ THE MOTHER FUCKING FIRST POST, THE SAME DAMN ANSWER ITS BEEN THE LAST 40 TIMES THAT QUESTION HAS BEEN ASKED
#2079SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
...

I'm thinking about an addon what calculates AEP values for every stat based on your current stats and prints the summary in each item's tooltip like Pawn's addon does. Is it possible to create a formula for the values of each stat based on the summary of the character's stats?
Believe that creating the formula is to much of a hassle atm, there was someone who wanted to try Cobb-Douglas a few pages back if I recall correctly, no idea how that turned out so far. If someone do create a formula that holds it's water to Tornhoofs sim and Blasted Lands I'd stick it in Enhancer for sure though.

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#2080SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
A couple questions:

Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?).

Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this?
#2081SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Malan
When are people going to stop claiming this.

No. That's not how the hit table works. Go to WoWwiki and search for Attack Table. Come back when you've educated yourself on it.
I'm sorry. I said up front that I didn't really know this stuff that well. Probably the reason people keep claiming that is because it is logical.

So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to?
#2082SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Wowzers
Originally Posted by Abrax
I'm sorry. I said up front that I didn't really know this stuff that well. Probably the reason people keep claiming that is because it is logical.

So, if I was rolling with 1250 AP, 24.5% crit, 9% hit from talents and 196 Hit rating, how much hit rating should I drop down to?
Don't worry about a set amount of hit you need to have. The best thing to do is to start upgrading to items that give you more AP/crit. These items will also usually have hit rating on them. That alone will be enough.
#2083SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
A couple questions:

Been trying repetively to reset autoattack with T5 bonus but it doesn't seem to work at all. Next swing happens randomly (?).

Still, been trying to press autoattack when I'm already in melee range of the mob (so both weapons can hit since second 0) and still can't seem to get hits at the same time for same speed weapons. There has been any conclusion on this?
If I'm not mistaken (I could be, still trying to sober up) this was talked about a few pages back, or something similar to it. Even with weapons of the same attack speed, your main hand is going to swing first. The numbers will pop up one right after the other, but your main hand will hit first. Thats if you are running up to the mob, getting inside melee range and then hitting attack.

If I'm wrong someone please correct me.
#2084SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)?
#2085SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Ujai
just one quick question concerning t4 (and yes, i know it's not the best pieces of gear):
am I right to see the 4p bonus as a 8 dps increase at 30% crit (with 40 extra damage per weapon and ss swing)?
I've never tested it, but I'd guess that the dps increase would be:

40dmg/weap * 1.5 (dual weilding) * 1.30 (crit) * .94 (dodge) = 73.32 dmg/10sec
= 7.3 dps

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2086SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
It's an extra 30 damage per weapon, isn't it? Also, I don't think the offhand reduction applies to the bonus damage.
#2087SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
I can't test because I don't have the gear. If anyone could do so, that'd be nice. Grab 2 1.2 or 0.9 dps weapons, and it should be easy to see exactly how it works.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2088SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Tristan
Believe that creating the formula is to much of a hassle atm, there was someone who wanted to try Cobb-Douglas a few pages back if I recall correctly, no idea how that turned out so far. If someone do create a formula that holds it's water to Tornhoofs sim and Blasted Lands I'd stick it in Enhancer for sure though.
I was (am) the one trying to do that. The good news so far is that the sort of lin-log model necessary to create such a function has shown some great promise, with the r2 (or variability in dps explained by the model) above .9 (or 90%). The bad news is that so far the sample size has been kind of restricted and just barely enough to give satisfactory degrees of freedom, which means that I am still far from creating something "representative" enough for distribution (and, given time constraints, will not be able to do so in the near future).
#2089SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
#2090SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Giske
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
Is he attacking from behind?

Is it in Hyjal and he isnt being decursed?

Can you submit a WWS parse to look at?
#2091SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
He is attacking from behind (standing next to rogues), its consistent in every instance.

I'll post some of our recent WWS:

Kael'thas, Vashj, Rage, Anetheron
Full TK clear
Full SSC clear

And yes, we suck at SSC.
#2092SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cesar2000
Everything seems right... over the full SSC parse he's got 6% miss, 5% dodge, and 1% parry.

With 18% hit and a 24% cap, 6% miss is spot on. 5% dodge is of course also what it should be.
#2093SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Mano
hmm, I'm not totally sure how WWS works in this regard.

But I see he dropped some searing/magma/fire elemental/fire nova totems but there's no damage recorded for them.
IIRC I've recently seen SCT/SCTD float the searing totem's damage as "attack", which might lead to WWS parsing this damage as normal melee damage. But as it is spell damage it would probably suffer from the normal spell hit penalty against higher level targets, which might explain the miss rate.

Edit: or not (see next post).

Last edited by Mano : 09/03/07 at 11:20 AM.
#2094SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Giske
Its not really feasible to record damage from those since there are several shamans in the raid, the values would be all wrong.

And omg, I cant believe I didnt notice that WWS sums up miss, dodge and parry into one %. I feel really stupid now. ><

Sorry for the idiot question.
#2095SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cownoris
Has any analysis been done of the new WF totem mechanic?

Now that it can only proc on white attacks or special attacks that use your normal attack (e.g. heroic strike) how does it compare to Agi totem?

If anyone has solid numbers of how much dps it provides to different classes/specs I'd appreciate it.
#2096SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ vank
You do not have to read but a few pages back to find the answers you seek.
#2097SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mr Tazza
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.

I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this:

- 1st mark: super mana pot
- 2nd: SR
- 3rd: both on cooldown
- 4th: super mana pot just in time
- 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded

I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up.

How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark
#2098SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Mr Tazza
Hey guys, I got Kaz'Rogal down for the first time today, but experienced some really serious mana problems.

I have about 7500 mana raidbuffed, and I went like this:

- 1st mark: super mana pot
- 2nd: SR
- 3rd: both on cooldown
- 4th: super mana pot just in time
- 5th: couldn't keep up and exploded

I wasn't using any shock during the fight to conserve mana, and JoW was up.

How do you do it? I don't think Demonic Runes are enough to keep up anyway, the only thing I can think about is running out and suiciding after 4th mark
Post a WWS to see if your paladin was keeping JoW up full time. Another thought is to wear a piece or two of shadow resist, I just wear the BT neck and I sometimes resist up to 3 mana burns a fight.
#2099SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
I wear a couple pieces of SR gear. Using the Super Mana Potion after the first unresisted mark is correct, but I wouldn't use SR until you've taken two more unresisted marks after the first. SR is a full mana bar for me, easily, and using it when you're down only 3000-4000 mana is a waste.

Lastly, make sure you're using Mana Shield and getting JoW.
#2100SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Patrik
I'm wearing few sr items (even ±120sr makes this fight quite a different experience) and I personally am using fel mana potions, which work just great.

Last edited by Patrik : 09/04/07 at 2:47 AM.
#2101SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dukanull
For kaz'rogal you really just need to save SR till your way low. One mana potion is enough for me personally. I just leave full dps gear on for that fight as well, no ShR, sometimes swapping in mail gear with a lil int on.

__________________
Vindication-wow.com
#2102SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Gulvan
I have a question. Wouldnt 4 piece t5 be actually better than stacking up haste gear in the patch? because 5% haste = 5% haste and with the rating normalized wont it be better to load up on stat items in those slots that normally would be haste? Or because its linked with flurry, that unless you have a good crit % it would still be better to use haste gear?
#2103SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Giske
Sorry if this has already been answered in this thread, but I have a question regarding hit chance for enhancement shamans. Our resident enhancement shaman has 18% hit, 9% from talents and 9% from gear. We are however getting WWS parses of him having 14-15% miss on his white damage which we cant quite explain when rogues with equal hit% are getting 9-10% miss. And yes the rogue in question is made of suck for having so low +hit.

Has anyone else seen this and is there an explanation why?
This thread seems to indicate something is very different with Shamans. It may be that Weapon Skill rating gives alot more +hit against boss level mobs that first thought.
#2104SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I haven't worn SR for any of our kills, even the first time I killed it it wasn't really a problem.

I dont use shock btw.
First do nothing, second do nothing, third use mana pot, fourth use SR, fifth SR still on, sixth should be dead.

This said last week I went all out spamming shocks and used SR after the third (we have JoW) and the boss died before i'd lost any of the mana from SR.
#2105SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Originally Posted by Dukanull
For kaz'rogal you really just need to save SR till your way low. One mana potion is enough for me personally. I just leave full dps gear on for that fight as well, no ShR, sometimes swapping in mail gear with a lil int on.
Well what I've been doing and to some success is wearing full BT shadow resist gear + priest buff. Last kill I resisted 10/11 marks. Yeah, my DPS goes down but I'm able to stay alive longer(than I had been) and give my melee group WF + SoE + UL a lot, lot longer. That's what I've been doing, call it what you will I see it as useful =X
#2106SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Patrik
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I haven't worn SR for any of our kills, even the first time I killed it it wasn't really a problem.

I dont use shock btw.
First do nothing, second do nothing, third use mana pot, fourth use SR, fifth SR still on, sixth should be dead.

This said last week I went all out spamming shocks and used SR after the third (we have JoW) and the boss died before i'd lost any of the mana from SR.
I believe, Stigmata, you have to have certain level of raid dps/equipment in order to fight the boss like that. Since Tazza killed Kaz'rogal just once, I think he has a few more weeks of MH/BT farming ahead of him, before he can switch to your aproach.
#2107SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Patrik
I believe, Stigmata, you have to have certain level of raid dps/equipment in order to fight the boss like that. Since Tazza killed Kaz'rogal just once, I think he has a few more weeks of MH/BT farming ahead of him, before he can switch to your aproach.
As I said, what I posted was our first kill, granted we have always had good dps, but the more dps you do, the faster he goes down, if you try to scrimp and save mana on your casters and have your shaman in gimp res gear its going to take alot longer.

If you go all out from everyone it will be dead long before you get to the point of having people blow up.

This is a link to our 2nd or 3rd Kaz'rogal kill, I dont think we uploaded any of the earlier ones, even so I know I didn't blow up on our first kill and it quite easily avoided.

Wow Web Stats

3 minutes 6 seconds and 6 Marks being cast (Highest I could find in the raid) Of which I took 4.

On the note of gear, people who are in BT/Hyjal now are way way better geared than my guild was when we first entered, you could count the number of times we had entered TK on one hand when we began BT.
#2108SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mr Tazza
Ability : Innervate

Buffs & gains	Total	Ticks	Avg	Max
Stigmata	2


I'll try saving my SR and maybe bringing a demonic rune next time.

Was already wearing SR neck but didn't resist any of the marks
#2109SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dukanull
I'm rofl'ing at stig getting innervates.

I couldn't imagine doing a kaz'rogal where he got off 11 marks, I'd probably have ran out and chilled out to not blow up the melee group myself.

__________________
Vindication-wow.com
#2110SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by panny
This thread seems to indicate something is very different with Shamans. It may be that Weapon Skill rating gives alot more +hit against boss level mobs that first thought.
To clarify, Rogues get 10 weapon skill from talents (Weapon Expertise) which would equate to perhaps 2-3% hit as well as anti-parry and anti-dodge. And don't forget that a rogue will be specced into Precision for 5% hit outside gear, so we only get 4% more hit from talents, modified down to maybe 2% from Weapon Expertise.
#2111SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Mr Tazza
Ability : Innervate

Buffs & gains	Total	Ticks	Avg	Max
Stigmata	2


I'll try saving my SR and maybe bringing a demonic rune next time.

Was already wearing SR neck but didn't resist any of the marks
hah, never noticed that before. Ill have to check the rest see if i've had them on recent kills.

edit: Stigmata - WWS and Stigmata - WWS

No innervates on those 2, although the fights only lasted 2 minutes 34 seconds.
#2112SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mr Tazza
Originally Posted by Rob
To clarify, Rogues get 10 weapon skill from talents (Weapon Expertise) which would equate to perhaps 2-3% hit as well as anti-parry and anti-dodge. And don't forget that a rogue will be specced into Precision for 5% hit outside gear, so we only get 4% more hit from talents, modified down to maybe 2% from Weapon Expertise.
Afaik now weapon skill only gives a small additional % crit vs mobs which are higher level than you.
#2113SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Mr Tazza
Afaik now weapon skill only gives a small additional % crit vs mobs which are higher level than you.
There's an ongoing thread discussing this, and what you describe is not what testing has shown.

__________________
[Castille] I WOULD HEAL BUT IT RESETS MY SWING TIMER
#2114SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Whodi
Weapon Enchants
Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, generally. None of them are wrong, it comes down to personal choice and what your gear favors. Mongoose provides 4.8% crit per proc (and stacks with double procs on MH/OH), Crusader provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc, and Potency is a constant +20 Strength (40 AP).
Quick question, IF the new changes come out with Ap converting to 30percent healing and Damage, would it be better to have crusader on both weapons again? I believe it can double proc (stacK) and we would get both the AP and also the extra spelldmg.
#2115SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Are people just skipping pages? Pertaining to the last 5 or so questions about Dragonstrike Vs. Wicked Edge, check back 5 pages where I asked the question. There was some theorycrafting after that. Even with the +haste nerf, broken down to AEP the Dragonstrike is still several points in front of Planar.

If a few points of AEP doesn't bother you - it breaks down to whatever looks cooler... >_>

*EDIT*

This is for Whodi:

You'd need to factor in your mana pool, when Mongoose procs it's a passive increase in DPS costing you no mana. With Crusader and *hoping* for a double proc (which is possible, yes) in order to make sure SS is on the mob followed with a FS or ES. You'd need to be very active with watching your proc buffs and make sure you always have enough mana for those shocks. The Crusader procs might not work with your cycle, too, thus wasting mana on more shocks or proc at the wrong time letting you only cast 1 shock.

I'm rather busy at work (can only type, no math) today so, can't theorycraft with numbers, sorry.
#2116SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mr Tazza
Afaik now weapon skill only gives a small additional % crit vs mobs which are higher level than you.
[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion
#2117SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Recently added a few pieces of high crit leather to my raid set which has me pushing 28% crit with the same AP (~1200), which when raid buffed leads to an awesome Flurry uptime.

This required asking my guild's Rogue class leader to do some leatherwork for me. While doing so, he remarked that my health was really low -- about 40% less than his. Then he kicked sand in my face.

I realize armor & stamina have 0 impact on dps...but I've also noticed certain healers who I used to group well with are having difficulty keeping me up on the odd chance that I pull aggro. I'm needing to use my shield more. Given that I'm threat capped anyway with many of our tanks, I'm thinking of adding a few pieces of arena gear to my set for heroics.

What level of health do you consider to be the baseline beyond which you wouldn't add a piece of gear no matter how much strength it had? And at what raiding tier?
#2118SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Whodi et al:

I use double Crusader...a dual proc is not only possible, it's common -- happens about every five minutes, I'd say. Sometimes I get a triple proc with the Hourglass or the Skyguard Trink for a momentary rush of several hundred AP. When it does I always take that as a cue to pop SR, to make use of the extra AP -> mana. If it also meant an extra rush of +damage...well, I might just kick off a Fire Nova, Healing Stream and a Flame shock prior to SR.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/04/07 at 1:23 PM. Reason: Spelling
#2119SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
question regarding enhance tier 5 vs 6

Hey,

I've reached the point where I have to choose whether to get tier 6 or not, but I really don't know if its even a worthwhile upgrade.

If we assume I'll use say chest/shoulders/helm/legs of tier 5 and the tier 6 gloves you get 239 str (socketed) + the 4 set bonus of 5% attack speed (flurry is up almost always so say constant 5% inc).

With full tier 6 you have 269 str (socketed) and the 4 set of 70 constant AP (using Stormstrike everytime cooldown is up).

So upgrading from tier 5 to tier 6 you gain effectively 100 AP, crit gains are marginal and ignoring stam for the dps comparison.

Surely the 5% attack speed is better than 100 AP? As long as it doesn't take you below the sweetspots for WF of course, or am i missing something?

Would appreciate some thoughts on this, and sorry if its been posted before but couldn' find any info on this in the posts i read.

Thanks.
#2120SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
stuff about hp
Looking at your profile, you're extremely low on the HP unbuffed. 5.6k is much closer to pre-TBC and with your threat capping there are two things to do:

1. Work on getting Subtlety enchanted on your cloak, also, get Recount/KTM/Omen to show you where you fall in the threat race against your tank. If need be - hot key your Auto Attack (mine is 2 now-a-days) and press it once you get even with the tank in Threat. Stand there for about 10 seconds then press Stormstrike (SS) to start the cycle again.

2. Get better tanks. We have very similar gear (my stuff isn't socketed or scrolled yet due to just getting 6 epics last week from Kara) and I pull aggro frequently with tanks that aren't... efficient at what they do. If I get one of the 25man tanks that run a 5man all the sudden or Kara - I cannot pull aggro from them even if I try.

An enhancement shaman can only do so much before we rely on our tank to up their threat.

I would push some more +stam from random items out of 5mans/Kara if you can. Aran can do bursts of 5-7k and Mag does 5-8k during a cave-in (it can be less, of course). You'll be getting one shot, no doubt about it. My life used to be around your level until recently. My goal is 8k hp unbuffed before I'm sitting comfortably for those random instances where I end up tanking.
#2121SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Mox
Surely the 5% attack speed is better than 100 AP? As long as it doesn't take you below the sweetspots for WF of course, or am i missing something?

Would appreciate some thoughts on this, and sorry if its been posted before but couldn' find any info on this in the posts i read.

Thanks.
Let's break it down like this:

Haste Rating: 10.5 = 1%
T5 4/4 adds 5% haste (right?) so: 10.5*5 = 52.5 haste rating
Convert that to AEP: 52.5*1.48= 77.7 AEP

This could be wrong, would some one look over it, please?

Now, 100attack power is a flat 100AEP. So, we're looking at a difference of 22.3AEP from the numbers you gave in your post. I'll look over your post again to make sure nothing was missed.

From a mathematical point of view- upgrading will increase your damage but you won't look as cool.
#2122SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Mox
Hey,

I've reached the point where I have to choose whether to get tier 6 or not, but I really don't know if its even a worthwhile upgrade.

If we assume I'll use say chest/shoulders/helm/legs of tier 5 and the tier 6 gloves you get 239 str (socketed) + the 4 set bonus of 5% attack speed (flurry is up almost always so say constant 5% inc).

With full tier 6 you have 269 str (socketed) and the 4 set of 70 constant AP (using Stormstrike everytime cooldown is up).

So upgrading from tier 5 to tier 6 you gain effectively 100 AP, crit gains are marginal and ignoring stam for the dps comparison.

Surely the 5% attack speed is better than 100 AP? As long as it doesn't take you below the sweetspots for WF of course, or am i missing something?

Would appreciate some thoughts on this, and sorry if its been posted before but couldn' find any info on this in the posts i read.

Thanks.
You are stretching it by saying you gain a constant 5% haste with the 4 piece. Zerath is using old/new haste rating conversions for some reason, it's 15.76x5x1.48xwhateverflurryuptimeis. I don't know how your guild runs things but with the addition of t6 you're looking at 1/1/2 sta/crit/ap extra per slot(gemmed), as well as gaining an extra slot in gloves.

With that being said, t6 is lackluster. I don't know why you are using it as a basis of comparison when there are better items for every slot available. Crused Vision/Akama Shoulders/Midnight Chestguard/Bow Stitched absolutely dominate t6, the gloves aren't all that bad; probably one of the better pieces. Why is everyone trying to hold on to their t5? I broke it once I had 2 of the "ideal" pieces of gear, all it took was using uptime meter and converting haste into a value, and then seeing if the gain from the items outweighed the haste.
#2123SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Zerath -- I'm already a huge Omen fan and I've gotten very good at threat management, to the point that I can dance between 90 and 100% no matter who's tanking. I don't turn off autoattack, though -- I switch to a high block shield and fast dagger to keep up UR.

We have some very, very good tanks for our raids, including a Druid with ungodly health and armor and threat generation in the 1000 TPS range. The main reason I've been pimping out my DPS is to make use of this buffer.

The problem is multiple mob situations and second line tanks -- the sort who only put out 600 TPS. If one of these tanks pulls his target off the focus fire mob for more than one or two swings, I usually wind up with aggro. When I had >6k, I could take three hits from a heroic mob...now it's only two. That's a lot of stress for for the group -- me having to watch the tank and switch off autoattack when he moves targets, the tank having to watch me and pull off mobs I've angered, and the healer having to set off a preemptive heal at a time when he's probably got a mob breathing down his neck.

I'm going to put a hold on more DPS gear for now, and try to replace what I have with similar mail. For heroics, I may need a second set. Of course, there's really only a handful of great heroic rewards for shamans, and I've got a nice helm and decent rings already. It's just the Brooch -- and I'm only 2 badges away. Of course, that shield might be nice, too.
#2124SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by rava
You are stretching it by saying you gain a constant 5% haste with the 4 piece. Zerath is using old/new haste rating conversions for some reason, it's 15.76x5x1.48xwhateverflurryuptimeis.
What is the 15.76 in your equation?
#2125SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
Originally Posted by Zerath
Let's break it down like this:

Haste Rating: 10.5 = 1%
T5 4/4 adds 5% haste (right?) so: 10.5*5 = 52.5 haste rating
Convert that to AEP: 52.5*1.48= 77.7 AEP

This could be wrong, would some one look over it, please?

Now, 100attack power is a flat 100AEP. So, we're looking at a difference of 22.3AEP from the numbers you gave in your post. I'll look over your post again to make sure nothing was missed.

From a mathematical point of view- upgrading will increase your damage but you won't look as cool.

After the haste nerf it'll be worth 15.76 per, so thats 78.8 * 1.48 = 116.6 AEP which makes it better than T6.

As for the random pieces being better.. yes some are, but the leather pieces you listed are also highly sort after by other classes.
#2126SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mox
After the haste nerf it'll be worth 15.76 per, so thats 78.8 * 1.48 = 116.6 AEP which makes it better than T6.
Yeah, but how much better is T6 in terms of other stat increases as compared to T5? You also need to multiply by the level of Flurry uptime (unless you have 100%, you won't be hasted 5% more constantly). You also need to take into account the improved AP, hit, and crit that T6 gives over T5.

However, realistically, in this case, your numbers are going to be so different with each set, that I would start to question how effective an AEP calculation would be for you. I'd probably try running Tornhoof's sim on the two sets and seeing what DPS each gets you (assuming his sim can account for 4-piece T5 and 4-piece T6).

Overall, though, I think this is a moot question... who is honestly going to collect 4-piece T5 or 4-piece T6 with all the great off-set loot? You can certainly build a set that's 100 AEP better than T6 by including some offset items so the bonus is not worth it to me. Until Blizzard pulls their heads out of their asses and put armor ignore like Rogues and Warriors instead of MP5, anyway; it's no coincidence that the only really good piece of T6 is the gloves which have no MP5. And for that matter, what's up with the horrible 2-piece set bonus and no red sockets?

Compare to rogues:
(2) Set: Increases the haste from your Slice and Dice ability by 5%.
(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Sinister Strike, Mutilate, and Hemorrhage abilities by 6%.
Druids:
(2) Set: Reduces the energy cost of your Mangle ability in Cat Form by 5 and increases the threat generated by your Mangle ability in Bear Form by 15%.
(4) Set: Increases the damage dealt by your Rip, Swipe, and Ferocious Bite abilities by 15%.

OK, now I'm getting a little bit too high on the podium/QQ train. Sorry.

Last edited by Rob : 09/04/07 at 3:28 PM.
#2127SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Mox
After the haste nerf it'll be worth 15.76 per, so thats 78.8 * 1.48 = 116.6 AEP which makes it better than T6.
Except not really. Look at Stigmata's WWS, with ~30% unbuffed crit(not sure what neck he uses) + lotp flurry was reapplied nine times, meaning that he had at least 9 hits without flurry. 9/85 = 10.6% downtime with 35 crit. The value with his gear would be at best around 104, but quite lower for well, anyone using t5.
#2128SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Zerath
I'm thick headed today, instead of 10.5 haste rating = 1%, they are upping it to 15.76 haste rating = 1%, correct?
You can use either the PTR value of 15.76 haste = 1% and the value of 1.48 AEP, or the live value of 10.5 haste = 1% and the value of 2.22 AEP.
#2129SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Rob
You can use either the PTR value of 15.76 haste = 1% and the value of 1.48 AEP, or the live value of 10.5 haste = 1% and the value of 2.22 AEP.
Thank you so much. I looked past the 15.76rating = 1% in this thread. Updated my spreadsheet. ^_^
#2130SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
Yeah the current T6 set bonuses are very very weak, and the set is kinda crappy itemised in terms of stats/sockets.

Noticed the resto t6 set has been changed today on PTR so hopefully maybe enhance one will too.

Out of interest, what are the "better" non set people are using then because personally I think the mail with haste on is very crappy and seriously hunter itemised (agility + AP), which leaves leather and bah rogues cry :/
#2131SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Your rogues shouldn't cry, considering they are getting your WF totem and/or GoA, UR and SoE. Cursed Vision of Sargeras (rogue), Shoulders of the Hidden Predator (hunter), Midnight Chestguard (rogue), and Bow-Stitched Leggings (hunter) would be the choices I'd replace 4/5 of T6 with:
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I haven't done the math on the haste items post-PTR (Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes, Fists of Mukoa) but it's possible that they are better than the above.
There are also the armor ignore items to consider, jury is still out on this mathematically so I'm not sure where to place them in the grand scheme of things.

If they are genuinely upset, gently remind them that they have well-itemized T6 and we don't.

Last edited by Rob : 09/04/07 at 3:59 PM.
#2132SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob
Your rogues shouldn't cry, considering they are getting your WF totem and/or GoA, UR and SoE. Cursed Vision of Sargeras (rogue), Shoulders of the Hidden Predator (hunter), Midnight Chestguard (rogue), and Bow-Stitched Leggings (hunter) would be the choices I'd replace 4/5 of T6 with:
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character
I haven't done the math on the haste items post-PTR (Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes, Fists of Mukoa) but it's possible that they are better than the above.
There are also the armor ignore items to consider, jury is still out on this mathematically so I'm not sure where to place them in the grand scheme of things.

If they are genuinely upset, gently remind them that they have well-itemized T6 and we don't.
The only haste item that remains competitive are the gloves, which come out about even with T6 after the change. The rest come out behind bt/hyjal alternatives, some even behind ssc/tk alternatives.

I think we can make a pretty educated guess on the value of armor penetration and doing so shows the ring to be a great item, the pants and the neck though are inferior to alternative items.
#2133SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Looking at the Tiered gear, it's fairly obvious to me that Blizz did not expect the Shaman class to be played the way most of us are playing it. They see us as standing up front with our totems, doing some decent damage but taking time out to splash the raid. In short, they think we're using more spells and thus need more mp5, free healing waves, etc.

And I'd wager most enhancers are playing that way (the ones who haven't read this thread, anyway). That used to be my play style -- prior to BC & DW, I used to be about even between Enh and Resto. My damage was minuscule, but measured in terms of Damage Given + Damage Taken + Healing Done I was highly effective.

Of course, now fights have gotten so technical and wipes so easy to trigger that being a hybrid isn't as important as being able to effectively play your role. And being able to give Rogues a run for their money while tying together a highly effective melee group is a lot of fun. I think Bliz could stand to go to school with a really great enh. shaman and learn that hey, MP5 is great but we could use some more STR, and an instant cast heal is lovely but we'd prefer a threat reduction proc that didn't reset the swing timer.

I'll say this, though: if I were looking for a new guild, I know it'd be easier to find one in full Cyclone than in my current set, even if I'd put out more damage as a Shamrogue.
#2134SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
TradewindKlaatubarada
Definitely random agil pieces are better than T6. Too bad there are no equivalent gear with STR instead of so much AGI.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/04/07 at 5:43 PM.
#2135SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
So, question. Has anyone come up with a definite answer for whether the Wicked Edge of the Planes is better then the Dragonstrike after the coming patch? I posted my little test, just wondering if anyone has been able to learn anything else.
#2136SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Aeolian
So, question. Has anyone come up with a definite answer for whether the Wicked Edge of the Planes is better then the Dragonstrike after the coming patch?
Wether it's one or the other that end up being the better of the 2, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be worth switching Blacksmithing speciality. That's also probably the underlying question: is one so much better than the other that it's worth switching? My guestimate says no.
#2137SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Well I already have Blacksmithing, Im currently using the Dragonstrike. Im just wondering if I should even bother switching to Axesmith to get the Axe or just grab something like Talon of the Phoenix after its buff until I can get Syphon. As it stands right now, Im just going to grab a Talon and not bother with Axesmith.
#2138SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
i have the axe now and after reading that the mace is so much better, i wanted to switch. but given that i'm an orc, i will just stick to my axe and save my time and gold.
and i would guess that it's rather hard to get ingame testing results. on the other hand, i did not even take a look into one of the sims (mainly because i can't get them to work), maybe you can compare the weapons there.
#2139SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
Originally Posted by Morelis
I think we can make a pretty educated guess on the value of armor penetration and doing so shows the ring to be a great item, the pants and the neck though are inferior to alternative items.
Where would you place the armor penetration neck in comparison to, say, the heroic badge neck? I ask because I have both and they're my only two options at the moment. I'm pretty low on hit, even as far as shamans are concerned (70 hit rating), so I have been thinking of equipping the heroic badge neck in its place.
#2140SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Xoya
Where would you place the armor penetration neck in comparison to, say, the heroic badge neck? I ask because I have both and they're my only two options at the moment. I'm pretty low on hit, even as far as shamans are concerned (70 hit rating), so I have been thinking of equipping the heroic badge neck in its place.
The trash neck is better than the badge one, even with low hit. The only one that's really better is the one off Supremus since it spends all of its budget on dps stats at the expense of stam.
#2141SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Boratz
I have a question, which is probably more directed at Sebudai than anyone else, but I'd still appreciate anyone's thoughts.

I have been taking a look at Juggernauts WWS logs, and tended to notice that your (Sebudai's) dps in general with the raid group has increased as your guild has progressed. I have also assumed that with progression comes an improvement in your gear. I find myself in similar spots on the damage meters as you were back when you were clearing SSC/TK (around 5th on Void Reaver for eg, but lower down on average probably around 8-10th) and now you're in a position where you are frequently towards the top end (top 5 usually).

My question is, do you agree with how I have interpreted this information - do you feel that your dps has also increased over time with an improvement in gear? Do other informed readers of this thread also feel that perhaps Enhancement Shaman dps increases over time because the gear scales more favourably at end game than other classes?

Put another way, do people think (as I do) that the gear increases from drops in BT and Hyjal increase an Enhancement Shamans dps more than 'equivalent' gear for a lock, or hunter does?

My guild has a spot for only 1 Enhancement shaman unfortunately, and there are two of us. So I find myself in a position where accruing DKP is quite difficult and as such I'm always last to get any kind of item, be it cross class or class specific. So I feel that I'm always lagging behind and struggling to catch up as a result. This also lends itself to people in my guild not necessarily believing that Enhancement Shaman dps is viable, considering my spots on the meters at present. My armory link should work if anyone would like to have a look (Bloodlust brooch incoming within a week or two).

We have cleared Vashj and are about to put in attempts on Kael, so my hope is that when we are all in Hyjal/BT I'll see a more favourable increase in my dps as I acquire gear from those instances.

Would Sebudai or anyone else care to share their thoughts on this matter?

Edit: Grammar.

Last edited by Boratz : 09/05/07 at 1:49 AM.
#2142SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
I would say yes, at ssc gear level you might see a bit of drop in dps meters relative position that should even up in MH/BT, since you will be not aiming for T6 for a while and mail dps loot should go for you without much of a struggle.

Also, switch your relic asap! Put the most effort into manatombs, that should help with your bloodlust brooch at the same time. And why not use karazhan rep ring? Your just a bit too low on +hit. And if your are still experiencing low relative pos in dps meters, make sure that you get salve > bom > kings on you, warrior with battleshout and if possible a feral druid to the same group.
#2143SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Celetroll
And why not use karazhan rep ring? Your just a bit too low on +hit.
His hit rating is fine (look at Sebudai's), but he needs to ditch his chest, gloves, and belt in favor of gear without MP5, because his AP is suffering. (Hint: GO LEATHER.) The Bladefist's Breadth also really needs upgrading, at least a Bloodlust Brooch is easily attainable.

I would definitely say we scale better with gear from Kara->SSC->TK->BT than locks and mages, for a few reasons: 1) they start out with FSW or Spellfire which is comparable to T5 for the most common builds (affliction lock, fire mage); 2) there are more melee unfriendly encounters in SSC/TK and more magic unfriendly encounters in BT; 3) our class innately scales fairly well. Compared to hunters, warriors, and rogues I'm not so sure that we really scale better, though. Currently, nobody's scaling better than rogues -- though the haste nerf may mitigate this somewhat or entirely.

Last edited by Rob : 09/05/07 at 3:50 AM.
#2144SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Boratz, in a way, you've got the opposite problem from me: you have plenty of stamina and could stand some higher dps! I doubt you're ever out of mana, so do replace that totem with something more useful...and don't aim for hit, or crit, or AP. Just fire up lootzor, plug in the AEP values, compare your gear with available upgrades, and go after the biggest upgrade first. If you aim to increase any stat by itself you'll invariably miss out on some of the secret treasures, such as the Fel Leather Leggings (which, believe it or not, are ever so slightly an upgrade for you, albeit at a loss of 52 stamina and a ton of int).

And remember: one of the reasons we're called enhancement shamans is we enhance our entire group. It may be tough to compete with other dpsers but if they're only beating you by 10% or so, remind them that this is 10% they wouldn't have had if you weren't grouping with them. Not to mention the benefits from SoE, Windfury, Grace of Air, etc...
#2145SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
I don't know if we scale with gear better than other classes. If I had to guess, I'd probably say that we don't. I don't really know though.

I think when I was working through Gruul's Lair/SSC/TK my gear was of a slightly worse quality than the gear our other dps classes were using at the time. The enhancement theorycrafting was really just getting started, so for the most part I was winging it. I thought hit rating was the best stat, I was using fast weapons etc. Nowadays the quality of my gear has caught up and thanks to threads like this I have a much better idea about what I should be doing.

Looking at your armory the most obvious upgrades are your relic, trinket, and a few enchants. Cyclone Shoulderplates are worth an exalted enchant once you can get that, +6 stats on your chest is better than +150 hitpoints, Cataclysm Legplates are good enough for an epic enchant, and you're using the agi/crit damage meta gem so you could really use some form of runspeed on your boots. You're also an enchanter so you can enchant your rings, right?
#2146SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Put the most effort into manatombs...
I really dislike the first boss in Heroic Mana Tombs. I have run 37, quick 20 minute runs into that place trying to get the totem off him, and nothing. Very annoying.
#2147SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I don't know if we scale with gear better than other classes. If I had to guess, I'd probably say that we don't. I don't really know though.

I think when I was working through Gruul's Lair/SSC/TK my gear was of a slightly worse quality than the gear our other dps classes were using at the time. The enhancement theorycrafting was really just getting started, so for the most part I was winging it. I thought hit rating was the best stat, I was using fast weapons etc. Nowadays the quality of my gear has caught up and thanks to threads like this I have a much better idea about what I should be doing.
I agree pretty much with everything here, we dont scale any better than anyone else, I think the main reason why I have cemented a permanent place in the top 5 is simply down the raid designs, hyjal is incredibly melee friendly, Najentus, Akama, Teron, RoS and Shahraz are all very good for melee.

With regard to T6 vs random pieces discussion, the drop rates on many of the random pieces sucks in comparison, of the items available, we have had no cursed vision, 1 bow stitched (went to a hunter) midnight chestguards we are going to be disenchanting because everyone has them and our rogues all want T6, mantle of darness - none.

We are gaurenteed to get T6 everyweek and difference is not massive so ignoring the items and waiting is counterproductive to the guild.

I think we had 2 healing paladins take Ret items this week because no one else needed the T6 as a main piece. I suppose that is the benefit of having a raiding team of less than 35 people.
#2148SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Boratz
Firstly thanks very much all for all the info, it confirmed everything I suspected. I've been quite unlucky with the relic, trying very hard to get it. I am getting a bloodlust brooch as soon as possible as well, had to use badges to buy nethers to upgrade my t1 mace --> t2, so I had none left after that.

My plan is to get the chest from either Hydross or from Karathress, to be honest which ever drops first. Get the belt of the deep shadow crafted, which should happen fairly soon as well. I was hanging onto the gloves for the 2 piece bonus of t4, extra AP from the improved SOE totem though. My gems also need some tweaking, but I can't do that until I get a chest with sockets, otherwise I lose my meta gem bonus.

Sebudai thanks for the tips. Again these were things I suspected. I'm almost there with consortium rep to enchant my rings, so that'll be wonderful when it comes. As for +6 stats to chest, I am waiting for a new chest before putting that on there, which should be in a week or two. Also not quite exalted yet with Scryer, chose to buy my epic mount first, that's on the priority list heh.

Also, thanks Stigmata - I had wondered if perhaps Hyjal/BT were more melee friendly and that accounted for much of why Shaman who were further towards endgame than myself were higher on the charts.

From what I can gather I'm much better sticking to random pieces/drops to make up my gear (also based of course on what I am able to get a hold of) than tier pieces as a generalisation. I know there are of course some tier pieces that are nice, but in general I have found from my position that I've very much had to make do with what I can get my hands on for the moment, and wait my turn for the things everyone wants. I quite literally only have the T5 legs, because I was the only person in raid who had yet to receieve them of all the rogues/shams/palis.

Last edited by Boratz : 09/05/07 at 8:30 AM. Reason: Grammar
#2149SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Boratz
Do other informed readers of this thread also feel that perhaps Enhancement Shaman dps increases over time because the gear scales more favourably at end game than other classes?

Put another way, do people think (as I do) that the gear increases from drops in BT and Hyjal increase an Enhancement Shamans dps more than 'equivalent' gear for a lock, or hunter does?
What I think is the opposite. We scale with gear worse than other classes. Take Mother Shahraz for example, I'm always 2nd or 3rd on that fight and everybody is in bad gear because of the needed shadow resistance. On other fights (either melee friendly or not) everyone in my group does better damage than me.
#2150SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I've been a bit short on time lately with some travel, are there any changes or additions to the first post necessary? Anyone care to summarize them if so, and I'll insert them in?
#2151SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Here is yet another Java simulator.
[Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
It has to run on any comp that has Java virtual machine installed.
You can calculate your expected DPS and find your own local AEP values.
It covers the following mechanics:
1) Normal (white) damage with appropriate 1 roll attack table
2) Windfury with hidden cooldown and 2 roll attack table
3) Flurry
4) Unleashed rage
5) Storm Strike with its own unique 2 roll attack table
Checked random wws logs and found it corresponding.
What it does not simulate:
1) Armor penetration, need someone to point to the list of boss's armor and what usual - armor debuffss are
2) Procs from items - need to know what procs you would like to add first
Any feedback welcome.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/05/07 at 4:19 PM. Reason: removed unreliable link
#2152SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kombinat
Originally Posted by Malan
I've been a bit short on time lately with some travel, are there any changes or additions to the first post necessary? Anyone care to summarize them if so, and I'll insert them in?
Minor english type quibbles:

the best thing weapon imbue to use (Dump thing, confuses the issue)

or a Romeo's Poison Vial (Romulo's Poison Vial)

asses DPS consumables (Um.... I think you mean assess)

I don't mean to be a totally anal retentive cock-up, but this is a bloody useful reference, cleaning up the wording and grammar in spots is bound to make it timeless.
#2153SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
Ah thanks, correcting those now.

@Yo! - I'm unable to load your java applet at work on Ubuntu using Firefox. Java Console says its an "unsupported Class version Error", and I'm using java 1.5.0_11.

Last edited by Malan : 09/05/07 at 1:31 PM.
#2154SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
The 2.2 nerfs to haste, PPM while hasted, and DST would be worth mentioning in the original post. See the Dragonspine Trophy thread and the new Haste/PPM thread in general discussion on this board for more info.

At the very least, the stat weight for haste and the AEP value of Dragonspine Trophy on the front page are out of whack now. Mongoose and the haste metagem might need to be re-evaluated too.

It looks like haste will have the same value as hit now, as 1% haste and 1% hit will have the same item budget value (15.8 rating), and both have the same effect (1% more white damage, 1% more WF procs).


EDIT: The hasted-PPM nerf may not actually exist. Tested it tonight and it doesn't seem to for flurry/mongoose. Nevermind about mongoose and the haste metagem I guess.

Last edited by Lujaar : 09/06/07 at 5:06 AM.
#2155SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan

@Yo! - I'm unable to load your java applet at work on Ubuntu using Firefox. Java Console says its an "unsupported Class version Error", and I'm using java 1.5.0_11.
Try version 1.6.0_02 (Java Runtime Environment Version 6 Update 2)
Sun Microsystems
#2156SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
Originally Posted by Yo!
2) Procs from items - need to know what procs you would like to add first
First of all, I like it a lot. My AEP values seem really odd, though -- at least, they're quite different from what's in the OP! I ran it on 10000 hours, so hopefully that was long enough.

Edit: I should mention I was using 2350 AP, 32.46% crit, 12.45% hit, and 2.5% haste.

AP: 1
Str: 2.2
CR: 2.93
Agi: 2.85
HiR: 2.46
HaR: 2.47 (I assume this is with the pre-patch value for haste rating?)

How realistic do those seem to you?

As for procs:
* Mongoose, definitely
* Ashtongue Talisman of Vision (though I suppose you could just add this as a static +AP, though it wouldn't be quite as accurate)
* Dragonspine Trophy (with the new 20 second internal cooldown and reduced haste changes).
* Tsunami Talisman
* Hourglass of the Unraveller
#2157SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
Try version 1.6.0_02 (Java Runtime Environment Version 6 Update 2)
Sun Microsystems
I'll try it out at home in that case, my work projects depend on an older java version and break with anything newer.

@Xoya - considering that your Hit Rating is *super* low right now, that might be fairly accurate.
#2158SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Do I put buffed or unbuffed stats in? The default value of 2500 seems very high for unbuffed, obviously, but when I calculate AEPs I get unexpectedly high values for crit/hit (on the order of 1 crit = 3 AP). It's even high for buffed given those hit/crit values. Is hit with or without talents?

Running the sim again with my unbuffed stats (1700AP, 27 crit, 17 hit) I got negative AEPs (values like -1545.04 haste = 1 AP). Something is clearly going wrong.

I would suggest doing unbuffed and then putting checkboxes for GoA, BoM, BoK, MotW, BS, FoRA, etc.

Progress bar doesn't seem to work for me.

Besides the procs Xoya mentioned I'd add 4 piece T4 bonus, 4 piece T5 bonus, 4 piece T6 bonus.
#2159SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
Originally Posted by Malan
@Xoya - considering that your Hit Rating is *super* low right now, that might be fairly accurate.
I was considering that as well, hence my wondering whether the heroic neck is better for me right now than the BT trash neck. Curiously, though, this AEP makes all the usually-considered-subpar gems better for me now than Bold Living Rubies, even 8 hit gems! I'll wait to hear more feedback from others before switching up all my gems, though.
#2160SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Xoya -- I dunno, I wouldn't really trust this sim yet over Tornhoof's... have you ran your numbers through that?
#2161SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Lujaar
At the very least, the stat weight for haste and the AEP value of Dragonspine Trophy on the front page are out of whack now. Mongoose and the haste metagem might need to be re-evaluated too.
The haste metagem was never the right gem for shaman (due to the cooldown on the proc), the 3% crit damage is what people should be using.

I think mongoose is a flat 2% speed increase, not calculated through haste effects. Either way, mongoose will still be the best enchant, due to the added AGI on proc. I think I get around 4% crit from it per proc, with both weapon procs overlapping regularly.
#2162SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Unless I'm reading that haste/ppm thread wrong, the conclusion seems to be that the PTR behavior is the same as what we have on live.
#2163SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Xoya
Originally Posted by Rob
Xoya -- I dunno, I wouldn't really trust this sim yet over Tornhoof's... have you ran your numbers through that?
I've run it through Pater's sim, but not Tornhoof's. Does Tornhoof's give AEP values I could compare against?
#2164SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Xoya
First of all, I like it a lot. My AEP values seem really odd, though -- at least, they're quite different from what's in the OP! I ran it on 10000 hours, so hopefully that was long enough.

Edit: I should mention I was using 2350 AP, 32.46% crit, 12.45% hit, and 2.5% haste.

AP: 1
Str: 2.2
CR: 2.93
Agi: 2.85
HiR: 2.46
HaR: 2.47 (I assume this is with the pre-patch value for haste rating?)

How realistic do those seem to you?

As for procs:
* Mongoose, definitely
* Ashtongue Talisman of Vision (though I suppose you could just add this as a static +AP, though it wouldn't be quite as accurate)
* Dragonspine Trophy (with the new 20 second internal cooldown and reduced haste changes).
* Tsunami Talisman
* Hourglass of the Unraveller
1) Check what expected DPS it provides you with. If it is about the same that you can achieve at 100% performance against boss with almost 0 armor and if the % break-up of attacks is similar to yours - use these AEP values safely.
2) 10,000 is enough for finding AEP values , 1,000 is enough for comparing gear directly via DPS. I can add dispertion/probability borders if needed. For example display not 2.46 but 2.46 ± 0.03.
3) It is assumed that BoK is on (affects Str and Agi AEP values)
4) Used new haste ratio 15.76 = 1% Haste

Thank you for procs roadmap - I will use it.
#2165SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Xoya
I've run it through Pater's sim, but not Tornhoof's. Does Tornhoof's give AEP values I could compare against?
Not directly, but it gives you a DPS value, so you can add some block of AP (e.g. by changing out the gems) and then compare that to the impact of adding some block of Crit/Hit/etc, or directly compare two pieces of gear.

I have tried to run Pater's but I can't get it to compile... it doesn't like System.out.format (I guess my Java version must be old).
#2166SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob
Do I put buffed or unbuffed stats in? The default value of 2500 seems very high for unbuffed, obviously, but when I calculate AEPs I get unexpectedly high values for crit/hit (on the order of 1 crit = 3 AP). It's even high for buffed given those hit/crit values. Is hit with or without talents?

Running the sim again with my unbuffed stats (1700AP, 27 crit, 17 hit) I got negative AEPs (values like -1545.04 haste = 1 AP). Something is clearly going wrong.

I would suggest doing unbuffed and then putting checkboxes for GoA, BoM, BoK, MotW, BS, FoRA, etc.

Progress bar doesn't seem to work for me.

Besides the procs Xoya mentioned I'd add 4 piece T4 bonus, 4 piece T5 bonus, 4 piece T6 bonus.
Buff stats to put with all your possible buffs including +hit from talents, +weapon skill from racial, etc. except for your own temporarry buffs such as UR.
For AEP calculation you have to increase Hours - look at how unstable the results are and increase Hours untill they do not change. 10,000 should be ok.
Again - compare the DPS result first, if it realistic - work on AEP.
#2167SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
OK, I'll try 10000 and see what I get -- I was using an hours of 1000 before. It was very confusing that with 2500 AP I got "reasonable" AEP values but with 1700 AP I got clearly "unreasonable" values.
#2168SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Fluffiez
@Yo!

I know this may not be the intended purpose for your calculator, as its main use would be to evaluate higher end values and assume proper gearing. But I noticed a very minimal DPS change when simply switching the offhand weapon speed from 2.6 to 1.5. Does not seem right.

Last edited by Fluffiez : 09/05/07 at 3:04 PM.
#2169SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Fluffiez
@Yo!

I know this may not be the intended purpose for your calculator, as its main use would be to evaluate higher end values and assume proper gearing. But I noticed a very minimal DPS change when simply switching the offhand weapon speed from 2.6 to 1.5. Does not seem right.
Thanks for the report. Let's name it "beta" Do not use it as gospel - it is very possible to contain bugs at the moment, however please use it as your reports will help to correct it.

Small changelog:
1. Corrected critical bug that used MH speed for SS's hit with OH. Thanks Fluffiez.
2. Corrected funny java rounding that produced number*1.1/1.1 not equal number leading to AP gradually decreasing when UR ends. This affected AEP dispertion the most - now should produce much more classic AEP weights.

Sorry for releasing unfinished program.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/05/07 at 4:28 PM.
#2170SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
The Weapon Skill discussion seems to be settling down:
Originally Posted by Olgas
When Def Skill - Weapon Skill <= 10:
5% + (Def Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

When Def Skill - Weapon Skill > 10:
7% + (Def Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%
For those who don't want to do the math,
With 0 weapon skill, you'll have a base miss rate of 7% + 2% = 9%.
With 5 weapon skill, you'll have a base miss rate of 5% + 1% = 6%.
(Base miss rates are increased by 19% as penalty for dual-wielding.)

Thus, 5 weapon skill = 3% hit. According to Blizzard, we also gain 0.1% crit per point of weapon skill, so that's 0.5% crit.
So 5 weapon skill = ~47 hit rating and ~11 crit rating.
We also gain some anti-dodge, anti-parry, and anti-block (as opposed to hit, the anti-miss)but under ideal raiding situations the only valuable one of these is anti-dodge since mobs can't parry or block from behind. That seems to be 0.2% anti-dodge which should be equivalent to at least 3 hit rating (possibly more worthwhile since hit rating should only increase white damage while anti-dodge would cancel out dodged WFs and SSes).

Under any type of valuation, if you are using maces or fist weapons that definitely makes [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] very attractive (over 256.4 AEP vs 223.8 AEP for [Boneweave Girdle] using the valuations on the first page).

Last edited by Rob : 09/05/07 at 3:55 PM.
#2171SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Am I right in thinking that, you are saying [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is 15% hit rating, 30% hit rating if you are dual-weilding a mace and a fist?
#2172SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Paradox
Am I right in thinking that, you are saying [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is 15% hit rating, 30% hit rating if you are dual-weilding a mace and a fist?
No way. 25 weapon rating = 25/3.9 = 6.4 weapon skill.
6.4 weapon skill is what will push you through magical spot of 10 weapon skill difference with boss mobs. It equals to having 3.14 (Pi!) Hit and 0.64 Crit. That is if both your weapons are daggers/fists/maces. If not - roughly half of that.
#2173SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by drats
The haste metagem was never the right gem for shaman (due to the cooldown on the proc), the 3% crit damage is what people should be using.

I think mongoose is a flat 2% speed increase, not calculated through haste effects. Either way, mongoose will still be the best enchant, due to the added AGI on proc. I think I get around 4% crit from it per proc, with both weapon procs overlapping regularly.
Mongoose is hands down the best weapon enchant. 120 agi = 5%. Shamans get .04% crit per agi.

As far as the speed goes, it may just be a coincidence, but I get .05 seconds wiped off my attack speed for both weapons when Mongoose procs.
#2174SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Paradox
Am I right in thinking that, you are saying [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is 15% hit rating, 30% hit rating if you are dual-weilding a mace and a fist?
No. Sorry for the confusion.

The weapon skill on it is equivalent to over 3% hit if you are using a mace and a fist, a pair of maces, or a pair of fists. If you are using only one of {mace,fist}, multiply that by 2/3 for MH and 1/3 for OH (in other words, if you MH a mace like me, the weapon skill is equivalent to over 2% hit i.e. over 30 hit rating).

My AEP calculation includes ALL the stats on it, not just the weapon skill.

Yo! rightly also mentions that daggers are included, this may be relevant when/if the FT buff hits (i.e. wielding a mace MH/axe OH might be inferior to wielding a mace MH/dagger OH).
#2175SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Yo!
Here is yet another Java simulator.
[Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
It has to run on any comp that has Java virtual machine installed.
You can calculate your expected DPS and find your own local AEP values.
It covers the following mechanics:
1) Normal (white) damage with appropriate 1 roll attack table
2) Windfury with hidden cooldown and 2 roll attack table
3) Flurry
4) Unleashed rage
5) Storm Strike with its own unique 2 roll attack table
Checked random wws logs and found it corresponding.
What it does not simulate:
1) Armor penetration, need someone to point to the list of boss's armor and what usual - armor debuffss are
2) Procs from items - need to know what procs you would like to add first
Any feedback welcome.
Looks good, but I can't run it. I'm getting this error message:

Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from
C:\...\JavaLibrary1.jar
(I've downloaded jre1.6.0_02)
#1306SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Originally Posted by Malan
Latest PTR change -
* Ankhs now stack to ten.

Game breaking mechanic right there folks.

Does anyone carry that many ankhs with them? I never take more than a 5 stack.
I'm guilty of carrying 10 on me =( I do pop a lot in bgs though XD. But having 20 on me will be nice as I do forget to re-stock
#1307SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
I just did some 2hours of testing / farming...

i started auto attacking from range on the first mob, then starting auto attack after i get hit 1 time on the second mob.. and back and forth each mob.

I can pretty much confirm that starting from range start the OH attack first, and starting in range start the MH attack first. WF procs are also skewed a lot more on the first swinger of each avaible swing set.

OH WF procs could only happen if the MH failed, so 20% of 80% of the eligible time, when i started auto attacking inside melee range. The variation of DPS was pretty significant, depending on wich hand i had going first.

- I didn't use heals during battle so i don't know yet if casting can de-sync or re-sync this.
- Stormstrike looked like it was processing first wichever hand is going first in auto attack.
- Didn't test shock, but since it doesn't reset swing timer i assumed it not changing anything. (i'll try throwing shocks in the mix later)

Anyone else has similar results?
#1308SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I tested it a few times in heroic mech a little bit ago, same results as you. Definitely appears to make the OH swing first if you autoattack out of melee range.
#1309SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Also from the updated notes:

* Crypt Fiends around Azeroth and at Hyjal Summit are now more totem friendly.
#1310SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lorven
two handed weapons?

Is there any circumstances where an enhancement Shaman would use a two handed weapon instead of dual weild, like against a not purgable DS. I dont think there is but thought Id ask. By the way thanks for the great info making me rethink a lot on my gear, tactics and a minor twink to my enhance build.

Lorven
#1311SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Lorven
Is there any circumstances where an enhancement Shaman would use a two handed weapon instead of dual weild, like against a not purgable DS. I dont think there is but thought Id ask. By the way thanks for the great info making me rethink a lot on my gear, tactics and a minor twink to my enhance build.

Lorven
Well, in pve for kael'thas you may use the legendary 2h axe but that'd probably only be for the speed buff it has.. in general, I don't think in pve you'd ever want to use 2h besides that. For pvp however, 2h can give you some quite nice burst potential and could possibly be the right choice. However you need a completely different set of gear than in pve (since all that +hit you probably have should be replaced with more stamina/resilience/str/crit etc)
#1312SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Mirken
Is it really advisable to heed lootzor and take mostly leather gear for a shaman and lose the extra armor? Secondly, from what I am seeing, intellect and mp/5 are generally not deciding factors on gear. How much attention do I need to pay to intel? I'd like to work on my leatherworking to eventually obtain the ebon netherscale set, but I don't want to waste my time with this if leather is going to be a better option.
For T4 loot (heroics/Kara/Gruul/Mag), the leather pieces are almost always better. If you have the choice between a leather and a mail piece from T4, the leather piece is going to have superior melee stats, and the mail piece is going to have int/mp5. Two-piece T4 is worthwhile because of the set bonus, but other than that leather is the way to go.

Past T4, the difference isn't as clear. Comparing T5 hunter gear vs T5 rogue gear, the rogue gear typically has hit and more stamina, whereas the hunter gear has int and more crit. Crit is a better use of item budget for shamans than hit, so the melee DPS loss from wearing mail over leather is minimal to nonexistant. By this gear level your mana pool also starts becoming more important, as you actually have enough AP to refill a larger mana bar.


To further illustrate the point, compare Chestguard of the Conniver - Items - World of Warcraft vs Scaled Breastplate of Carnage - Items - World of Warcraft, both Nightbane drops. The leather piece is solid; the mail piece is garbage. Now compare Swiftstrike Shoulders - Items - World of Warcraft vs Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes - Items - World of Warcraft, both BoP craftables from BT patterns. The two are so similar that my choice came down to which one I thought was less hideous.
#1313SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
Originally Posted by Rob
When your hasted, flurried weapon speed drops below 1.5, it is theoretically possible to do less damage than if it was above 1.5 due to the fact 3 swings will not be eligible for WF to proc instead of 2. However, if haste drops you below 1.4 your damage should pick back up again. As far as applying this theory to current itemization, this appears to mean that you primarily just need to be sure that passive haste + flurry + Mongoose doesn't push you under 1.5, because large haste procs like DST and Dragonstrike, and large haste use effects like Bloodlust and Haste Potions will be large enough to increase your DPS no matter where you are on the Haste curve (for example, if your weapon speed is 2.0 and Heroism pushes you down to 1.43, that's still going to be a net DPS increase even though you may lose some WF damage).
--


flurry+2 moongose procs + dragonstrike proc >1.51 its around 1.6~ i go under 1.51 speed only with bl on which ofc happen once every blue moon

i use dragonstrike on mh and netherzim on oh and dragonstrike tbh isnt proccing alot (less then 10%)but its the best pve mh no item can replace the haste proc unless you have dragonspine from gruul ( never drop for me )
nothing is better then 1.2 mh and 1.3 oh its just crazy dps if u leave the wf for sec if u doing over 1k dmg in 1 crit with mh and like 500+ with oh( if u have like 40% crit buffed) can cover any wf that doesnt proc
#1314SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Wondering a few things...

Excellent post! I learned a lot from reading it, and I'm very appreciative that you took the time to write this. I do still have a few questions. I attempted to search the forums for information, but I wasn't able to find anything...

Why do many Enhancement Shaman spec into Restoration with their extra points? I believe it was originally for the Hit Rating and possibly enhanced Ankh, but this guide reveals Hit Rating to be less important than originally thought, is that still the best way to spec? If so, why?

And I saw a lot of theory (which makes a lot of sense) on why a faster OH is a poor choice when applying Windfury to both weapons... But I am currently using the Runic Hammer with Flame Tongue in my Main and Malchazeen with Windfury in my offhand... How much of an increase would I be looking at if I slid the Runic Hammer to my offhand and got say... Fool's Bane in my main hand?
#1315SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Originally Posted by Tambard
Excellent post! I learned a lot from reading it, and I'm very appreciative that you took the time to write this. I do still have a few questions. I attempted to search the forums for information, but I wasn't able to find anything...

Why do many Enhancement Shaman spec into Restoration with their extra points? I believe it was originally for the Hit Rating and possibly enhanced Ankh, but this guide reveals Hit Rating to be less important than originally thought, is that still the best way to spec? If so, why?

And I saw a lot of theory (which makes a lot of sense) on why a faster OH is a poor choice when applying Windfury to both weapons... But I am currently using the Runic Hammer with Flame Tongue in my Main and Malchazeen with Windfury in my offhand... How much of an increase would I be looking at if I slid the Runic Hammer to my offhand and got say... Fool's Bane in my main hand?
1.3% hit and spell hit are good. Hit is not the optimal way to increase DPS over Str or Crit, but it still increases dps by a good margin. In addition, improved Ankh helps as a "aggro wipe", and Healing focus allow you to actually toss out a couple of spot heals. Of course, all these might change with the new Enhancement Talents

You'll see a pretty decent chunk of DPs increase if you go with the later setup, the damage will be more spikey, however. So you need to test extensively to see accurate results
#1316SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Originally Posted by david0925
1.3% hit and spell hit are good. Hit is not the optimal way to increase DPS over Str or Crit, but it still increases dps by a good margin. In addition, improved Ankh helps as a "aggro wipe", and Healing focus allow you to actually toss out a couple of spot heals. Of course, all these might change with the new Enhancement Talents

You'll see a pretty decent chunk of DPs increase if you go with the later setup, the damage will be more spikey, however. So you need to test extensively to see accurate results
Ah! Thank you very much.
#1317SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Prism of Inner Calm was buffed to -150 threat per crit somewhat recently. I still can't pull aggro on bosses even if I try though; so I can't see a reason to use it anywhere but on trash.
#1318SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Recently? Its been 150 ever since the last patch. It was -50 when TBC was released.
#1319SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Do people actually use Reincarnate as a poor man's Vanish? I have never once actually overaggrod on purpose just so I can Reincarnate and start over threat-wise. There isn't really a fight in which I'm threat capped anyway, let alone enough of them to singlehandedly justify putting points into this talent.

Reincarnate is one of the huge advantages of our class. I put points into this talent because being able to Reincarnate more often and coming back with more hp and mana has been the difference between winning and losing on a lot of encounters for us over the years. I'm pretty sure all five of our shaman spec into this talent.
#1320SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Tambard
But I am currently using the Runic Hammer with Flame Tongue in my Main and Malchazeen with Windfury in my offhand... How much of an increase would I be looking at if I slid the Runic Hammer to my offhand and got say... Fool's Bane in my main hand?
Doing the switch for WF on both hands, with Fool's bane and Runic Hammer would give you a pretty huge boost. Specially considering you don't put WF on your main hand, i must say, i really don't see why you'd ever want to use the combo you are using, with these choices of weapon imbue..

Mind enlightening me on why you chose to wield this combo?
#2201SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Hedin
I have a little question about SS...
I know that:
if MH SS is dodged/parryed then there is no OH hit
MH and OH can crit separately

What I don' know - can OH be dodged/parryed if MH hits? (I don't remember)
In this case using Attack Table we will get a much bigger chance for OH not to hit than for MH...
Yes, I believe this has been understood for a while to be actual stormstrike behavior.

__________________
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"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2202SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
What I noticed in Yo's source is that he multiplies the WF AP with the UR factor.
I'm not completely sure that this is correct, as far as I know, the WF AP is just a static value added to the windfury swing, always 475 AP. Back when I wrote my alpha windfury plugin I found no evidence that wf ap is increased by UR, but I never tested explicitely for this, 47.5 AP (UR gain) are obviously not that simple to verify.

__________________
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#2203SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Can we get a support for [Totem of the Astral Winds] as well?
#2204SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Neithan
Hello guys,

Just one question. Are BT LW haste mail pieces (bracer and shoulder) still worth getting after the coeficient change?

Edit: Just woke up, edited for clarity
#2205SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Neithan
Hello guys,

Just one question. Are BT LW haste mail pieces (bracer and shoulder) still worth getting after the coeficient change?

Edit: Just woke up, edited for clarity
Shoulders of the Hidden Predator or Mantle of Darkness (and I think even the T6 shoulders) will be better after the haste nerf. Same goes to Insidious Bands, Deadly Cuffs and Wraps of Precise Flight for the wrist slot. I don't think I'll ever use haste items after 2.2
#2206SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Yo: Your AEP calculator is really good, this is what I was thinking about in one of my previous posts. You said "It is assumed that BoK is on" so when I enter stats I should sum all buffs/potions/food/etc except unleashed rage and blessing of kings, am I right?
#2207SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Wizkid
1) In my humble opinion the weapon section in the first post is still a bit lacking. There really arent that many epic options for us (less than trinkets and those are all listed) and you are only listing the 100+ DPS weapons for MTH/BT. Most players will (want to) start with a MH weapon from Kara or the BS option and try to get one of the MH upgrades from TK or even another Arena2 for the MH.

2) I recently switched from Decapitator (Mongoose) + Arena2 (Crusader) to Arena2 (Crusader) + Netherbane (Mongoose) and am wondering about two things:

First, with two different proc enchants it should not matter if they are on the MH or the OH weapon, or does it ? Maybe add the answer to the Enchanting section.

Second, with the upcoming buff to SSC/TK weapons it seems rather pointless to replace Netherbane or Talon of the Phoenix with a second Arena2 weapon ? The Lootzor link already lists the Talon as the best MH even above the 100 DPS drops from MTH/BT, which frankly irritates me a bit (yes, I noticed the proc on the Syphon). Should that be fixed or is it true ?

3) Which weapon does an Enh Shaman pick up on Kael ? The dagger although it is rather fast or the 2h axe because it has the speed proc ? Or just your regular weapon set, because it is slow/slow aka optimal ?

Last edited by Wizkid : 09/06/07 at 10:30 AM.
#2208SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wizkid
1) In my humble opinion the weapon section in the first post is still a bit lacking. There really arent that many epic options for us (less than trinkets and those are all listed) and you are only listing the 100+ DPS weapons for MTH/BT. Most players will (want to) start with a MH weapon from Kara or the BS option and try to get one of the MH upgrades from TK or even another Arena2 for the MH.
Do people really need a complete list of every possible item they could ever get, the original post is a guide, not a complete instruction manual.

Originally Posted by Wizkid
3) Which weapon does an Enh Shaman pick up on Kael ? The dagger although it is rather fast or the 2h axe because it has the speed proc ? Or just your regular weapon set, because it is slow/slow aka optimal ?
None.
#2209SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette
Ok, going to pull out interesting lines from the code as I see them...


Why a 32% chance to proc windfury on an attack instead of the tested and empirically determined 36% chance?

How is MissMH determined, and why does it have a different rate than the OH miss rate? I see you did something similar with crit. Is this for Orcs or other people who have +skill ratings who use non-similar weapon types between hands?

*** editing out my WF dmg thing - this is referred to later on, but I can see where I made a mistake in analysis ***

the following stuff I still don't get, however:



I assume you mean to have WFap/14 in the "hit" statement for the MHWf hit case.

Also, now that I think of it, is Windfury Actually hitting twice? Again, I'm pretty good at being dumb, so I hope this isn't s stupid question, but how do you have the code proc'ing 2 windfury attacks? I'm only seeing one. I'm not so familiar with the array coding, however, so maybe you take care of it somewhere in there.

I assume that when you say that adding Hit wasn't capped, the result in the sim is that you end up pushing dodge off of the table? I'm not sure how you determine MissOH and MissMH, so I can't be sure. I still don't get why having 60% Hit was better than 50% hit, but as long as you say you're fixing it, I'm happy with that.

Also, I'm not sure what's happening here:

This part in particular:
if (R1>(0.05+Dodge))
{ // landed

is the 0.05 supposed to be the default miss rate? If so, then why don't you have +hit reducing that 0.05 result off the table? I know you mentioned a two-roll system for yellow attacks, but I don't see that anywhere in here - Is this somehow related to that?

Other than those things, I don't see any glaring mistakes (either on your part in the code, or mine in understanding it). Not to say that these mistakes might not explain the huge dps gaps seen - If you're not granting the WF AP bonus to MH WF hits, and if you only have WF hitting once instead of twice, that could easily explain the 200dps delta between your and tornhoof's models. But, if these are the only problems with it...

Then this, in fact, is by far the cleanest code I've seen, and makes the step by step versions (like mine ) look really ugly in comparison. Your method of finding the minimum value of the "next event" is so much more efficient - now I'm starting to understand why your sim runs so much quicker than mine ever could as I check every x milliseconds for an event.

I'm really impressed man :-) The only thing that I haven't mentioned so far that I'd like to see, that I haven't requested yet, is more detailed reporting - how many main hand hits were there, for how much damage. How many off hand glances, etc etc. That sort of thing really helps us compare the code results against empircal or theoretical examination.
You spotted alot, thank you! The only part not being a bug is second attack from WF - it is covered by this code:

if(WF){WF=false;}
else {Time[1]=inf;}
WF is boolean variable that shows if seond attack needed

Also Miss is different for MH and OH because of weapon skill.
MissMH = 0.24 + Miss(MHskill)-Hit
now I changed it to
MissMH = Math.max(0.24 + Miss(MHskill)-Hit,0)
What I noticed in Yo's source is that he multiplies the WF AP with the UR factor.
I'm not completely sure that this is correct, as far as I know, the WF AP is just a static value added to the windfury swing, always 475 AP. Back when I wrote my alpha windfury plugin I found no evidence that wf ap is increased by UR, but I never tested explicitely for this, 47.5 AP (UR gain) are obviously not that simple to verify.
Will fix it. Thanks.

Did you miss Weapon Mastery?, I can't find any 1.1x factor to the dps
Yes I did

Can we get a support for Totem of the Astral Winds as well?
Your AEP calculator is really good, this is what I was thinking about in one of my previous posts. You said "It is assumed that BoK is on" so when I enter stats I should sum all buffs/potions/food/etc except unleashed rage and blessing of kings, am I right?
1) Totem of the Astral Winds is on by default - yet another checkbox to be able to switch it on/off is needed.
2) Sum it all up with BoK but without UR. UR is Shaman's buff with random behavior that is modelled.

I'd recommend you not require people to hand-jam BoK onto their stats, adding it as an optional buff would be great. Ideally people want to see a sim match up closely with their real world DPS so they can see that its accurate, and for people in 5mans or KZ, they're not going to BoK anyways. Hell, I don't get Kings all the time in a raid even
Basically the fact that BoK is "on" affects only AEP values of Agi and Str by flat 10% increase.
Put your stat totals buffed just as how you are going to be buffed in raid (with or without BoK) and divide AEP values for Agi and Str that it finds by 1.1.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 11:27 AM.
#2210SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Wizkid
First, with two different proc enchants it should not matter if they are on the MH or the OH weapon, or does it ? Maybe add the answer to the Enchanting section.

Second, with the upcoming buff to SSC/TK weapons it seems rather pointless to replace Netherbane or Talon of the Phoenix with a second Arena2 weapon ? The Lootzor link already lists the Talon as the best MH even above the 100 DPS drops from MTH/BT, which frankly irritates me a bit (yes, I noticed the proc on the Syphon). Should that be fixed or is it true ?

3) Which weapon does an Enh Shaman pick up on Kael ? The dagger although it is rather fast or the 2h axe because it has the speed proc ? Or just your regular weapon set, because it is slow/slow aka optimal ?
1 - Doesn't matter which hand.

2 - The lootzor link for weapons is garbage, don't refer to that. I'm not sure about the Talon vs Gladiator, I ran Pater's sim using both with my gear and the Talon did *not* perform as highly as the Gladiator weapons, which was pretty disappointing to me. However, I'll probably try to pick one up next time it drops just to try the combo.

3 - Stigmata has elaborated many times in this thread that he grabs the 2H, uses the proc, and then uses his normal weapons.


@Yo - I'd recommend you not require people to hand-jam BoK onto their stats, adding it as an optional buff would be great. Ideally people want to see a sim match up closely with their real world DPS so they can see that its accurate, and for people in 5mans or KZ, they're not going to BoK anyways. Hell, I don't get Kings all the time in a raid even.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.

Last edited by Malan : 09/06/07 at 10:51 AM.
#2211SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
For what it's worth, on Kael this week I was toying around with using the dagger in the mainhand. It has approximately the same range as my arena season 2 weapon but much higher dps. The windfuries were slightly lower (1.8k to 1.9k compared to 2.1k to 2.2k) but I'm wondering if the extra dps from the fast weapon (combined with the fact you'll actually get more windfuries from the fast weapon on the maindhand) makes up for it.

I do remember the long discussion that was had back in June or so when Stigmata discussed all this, but I don't remember whether he ever tried it in the mainhand.
#2212SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
@Yo:
Did you miss Weapon Mastery?, I can't find any 1.1x factor to the dps

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2213SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I'm half wondering if it might be time to start a Volume II of this thread.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2214SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Xoya
I do remember the long discussion that was had back in June or so when Stigmata discussed all this, but I don't remember whether he ever tried it in the mainhand.
I can't remember the last time I entered TK, let alone fought Kael, i certainly never picked up the dagger, so there would be no chance of me using it MH.
#2215SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Hmm I compared Yo's values to my most recent model and I'm a bit surprised, even after reducing some caps to his values (miss to be 24% etc.)

Stormstrike DPS is fine, even though we're using different methods for SS, I can reproduce his values (e.g. ~120 DPS for the default values)

WhiteDPS is a tad on the lower end for his model, even if I multiply the missing Weapon mastery (which I think is missing) to his value. His result is 517 DPS, mine is 628 DPS.
We're missing some 50 DPS there.
Now my white mh dps is calculated:
float mhwhitedps = 0.01f * (hitwhite + crit - glancing - dodge) * (wdps1 + ap / 14);
which is straightforward.
I'm using 25% glancing probability and 25% glancing reduction.
This whitedps is further multiplied with haste effects, common factor is 1.25 (flurry uptime around 70% here + 5% haste).
This formula is certainly correct, but 50 DPS can not be just explained by bad luck.

YellowDPS is obviously carrying those missing DPS from the whitedps over to yellow dps. I'm missing around 50 DPS there again.
Similar formula as above, again hasted:
float mhyellowdps = 0.01f * 0.01f * (hitwhite - dodge) * (hityellow + crit - dodge) * 2 * wfprocmh * 1.4f * (wdps1 + wfap / 14);
(we can only proc wf if we actually hit the target, so we need to hit with white first, than we can crit/hit with yellow )
This value is again hasted, the wfprocmh probability is corrected to cover the 3.0s cooldown:

Example: two 2.6s weapons, 5% haste, we assume the 25% overall haste effect (incl. flurry)
Each weapon swings with 2.08s now (on average), so we swing every 1.04s.
With a wf proc chance of 36% we expect our wf to proc every 2.08/0.36 = 5.777s
So even hasted we are way slower than the wf cooldown of 3.0s.

Basically I'm missing 100 DPS, 50 DPS in white and 50 DPS in yellow, probably the missing yellow dps is already accounted for by Disquette's bugsearch. So I'm pretty much still missing a fair amount of normal white DPS.

The current model in c++ is here: Pastey.net - paste bin

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/06/07 at 1:17 PM.
#2216SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
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A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2217SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.
Flurry is something that I can not code fully because I am not convinced on how it has to work... So far it is "haste the next x attacks".

New version of sim is released with basic FAQ and changelog.
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

Now about the difference with math expactation approach:
The main fundamental reason is that math expactation for function of some random values is not equal to function of math expactation of these values.
Example - on crit you have both UR and Flurry activated leading to all flurried attacks being made under effect of UR - something that math expactation approach is not counting as Flurry is assumed to be x uptime, UR y uptime so there is possibility when Flurried attacks are not affected by UR.
Sims potentially are more correct while formulas are very fast. For AEP calculation derivatives can be found out from formula while sims have to use brute-force approach: increase something by z, calculate dps and divide result by z afterwards and the accuracy/time depends on z choice greatly.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 2:07 PM.
#2218SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Disquette
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.
Are you accounting for Windfury procs and Stormstrike generating flurry charges but not consuming them? I am guessing that you are but this is the easiest way to get way out of whack on uptime.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#2219SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Disquette
Tornhoof, there's something that I don't like talking about because it reveals a fundamental lacking of my part, but perhaps it will help figure out the white dps difference. Your closed form value for # of flurried attacks is a lot closer to the game-tested values than the ones produced in a sim. I can't for the life of me figure out why. The sims use the logic "haste the next x attacks", and when you put 3 in for x, you get lower flurry uptime (in my experience) than using the closed form (1-crit)^3

Maybe it's a bug in coding the sims? Maybe it's a fundamental lack of understanding on my part? I don't know. Once the flurry uptime portion is operational on Yo!'s page, and assuming it's attack based instead of time based, we can look into it.
Hmm I have no idea, as far as I've seen Yo's sim has a working and correct flurry calculation.


On a side not, I'm not even considering a full stormstrike cycle in my model (no haste effect for wf currently), so it's probably even missing some more dps

As for my program, It's on hold until atleast 2.2 and probably until I port it on c++, since I'm running into serious performance issues currently.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2220SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm half wondering if it might be time to start a Volume II of this thread.
Make the next one The Enhancement Shaman Omnibus: SLOW WEAPONS WF ON BOTH
#2221SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
As for Flurry works:
- Every melee attack can proc it (e.g. white, stormstrike, wf)
- only white hits consume a charge

So you'll need to change your model to reset your flurry counter to 3 for every crit in your switch case (since every melee attack can crit and proc flurry) and only decrease the counter for a successful white melee hit.

__________________
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#2222SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
As for Flurry works:
- Every melee attack can proc it (e.g. white, stormstrike, wf)
- only white hits consume a charge

So you'll need to change your model to reset your flurry counter to 3 for every crit in your switch case (since every melee attack can crit and proc flurry) and only decrease the counter for a successful white melee hit.
It was done exactly this way from the start as can be seen in code above - whenever any attack crits Flurry = 3, and Flurry-=1 only on hasted white hits.

What I do no model is the effect of Flurry affecting more than 3 attacks sometimes for some unclear reason.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 2:32 PM.
#2223SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3MrProcrastin8
Question on if these daggers are better.

I know, I know. Daggers make us all cringe. I understand how the calculations work of how we want to have the slowest weapons possible. But I find myself in a pickle as of last night.

First of all, I'm very much so undergeared. Like, pre-Kara undergeared. Time constraints, as well as helping the girlfriend level, has hindered my ability to run the dungeons to get the good gear. However, I found some time last night to run Karazhan with my guild. They have been running it for months now, so the group I was running with had a good bit of the gear that drops there already, so I ended up getting some easy loot:

Emerald Ripper
Blade of the Unrequited

They are fast items, yes, but, damage-wise, they are arguably better than my previous two:

Reflex Blades
Mag'hari Fury Brand

My question is probably one that gets asked often... will using the daggers give me an overall dps increase? When I happen to obtain slower, higher damage items, obviously I will make the switch, but I don't know when I will be able to obtain one, and it may be a long time coming. So, until then, what do I do?

Armory Link
for if my crit/ap/whatever is needed to help me figure this out.

Thanks.
#2224SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Actually Strawberry (I think?) asked about this a few pages back with the Reflex blades, and after testing he found exactly what I told him - that the Reflex in MH and an AH green 2.6 was better than either of the epic daggers. I'd hang onto them for whenever those shaman talent changes come out just in case though.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2225SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3SardonicJoe1
Originally Posted by Malan
Here's a more updated version of the math that I linked on the first post from pre-TBC. I just took the equations used and substituted in values appropriate for level 70.

Dexterity Enchant = 12 Agi = 12 x 1.8 = 21.6 AEP = ~1.6 DPS (if 12.73 AP = 1 DPS because of Weapon Mastery)
Length of fight = 6min = 360 seconds
Shaman DPS = 800 (fairly achievable value)

Contribution of Dexterity enchant to damage in a 360 sec fight
360sec * 1.6dps = 576
The run speed enchant would need to make up 576 damage by allowing you to reach your target faster.

576 = 800*[x-x/1.08]
576/800 = x - x/1.08
576/800 = x(1-1/1.08)
Simplifies to x = 9.72

So at level 70, for a 6min fight where your average DPS is 800, a run speed enchant beats out an agility enchant if the fight forces you to move between targets for more than 9.7 seconds. Note that the math above doesn't even account for the 6 Agility on the Cat Swiftness enchant, which would further this as such:

If the DPS contribution of the Dexterity enchant is 576 damage over 360 seconds, than the Agility from the Cat Swiftness enchant (0.8 DPS) would be worth 288 damage in the same fight. Therefore you really only need to beat out 576 - 288 = 288 damage over the fight.
This would lead to the equations above simplifying to x = 4.85, so you really only need to have less than 5 seconds of movement on a 6 minute fight for the Cat Swiftness enchant to be come superior to the Dexterity enchant.
this is completely wrong. in your first equation, you set the wrong quantities equal to each other. you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done. hence your incorrect conclusion. the following is the correct derivation...


A = dps offered by 1 agility
T = total dps time for a boss fight (this does not include times where melee must stop dps, like running out of RoF on azgalor, but it DOES include the time you spend outside of melee range when there is no fire)
t = total time spent outside of melee range, during which you COULD have been dpsing (see above example)

over the course of the fight, dexterity will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

12 A (T - t)

over the course of the fight, cats swiftness (6agi+minor speed) will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

6 A (T - t') = 6 A (T - t/1.08)

so lets suppose that cats swiftness is better than dexterity and see what conditions T and t must satisfy for that to be true...

6A(T-t/1.08) > 12A(T-t)

...now you cancel out the A (so it really doesn't matter how much dps 1agi gives, just the assumption that 1agi gives a static amount of dps), and do some algebra to obtain...

T < (2-1/1.08)t ===> T < 1.074 t

so cats swiftness is better than dexterity if and only if the total time of the fight is LESS THAN 1.074 times the time you would normally spend outside of melee range. clearly, this condition is never satisfied on a normal boss fight. for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.

please correct this on the front page for those thinking that minor run speed is worth getting.
#2226SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1
you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done.
I'm fairly certain that's not what I did, not to mention that the derivation used is simply a copy of a formula derived pre-TBC that was widely accepted.
#2227SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ekto
Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1
this is completely wrong. in your first equation, you set the wrong quantities equal to each other. you set the damage done by dexterity equal to the damage GAINED by the minor run speed, NOT the actual damage done. hence your incorrect conclusion. the following is the correct derivation...


A = dps offered by 1 agility
T = total dps time for a boss fight (this does not include times where melee must stop dps, like running out of RoF on azgalor, but it DOES include the time you spend outside of melee range when there is no fire)
t = total time spent outside of melee range, during which you COULD have been dpsing (see above example)

over the course of the fight, dexterity will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

12 A (T - t)

over the course of the fight, cats swiftness (6agi+minor speed) will be responsible for the following amount of damage...

6 A (T - t') = 6 A (T - t/1.08)

so lets suppose that cats swiftness is better than dexterity and see what conditions T and t must satisfy for that to be true...

6A(T-t/1.08) > 12A(T-t)

...now you cancel out the A (so it really doesn't matter how much dps 1agi gives, just the assumption that 1agi gives a static amount of dps), and do some algebra to obtain...

T < (2-1/1.08)t ===> T < 1.074 t

so cats swiftness is better than dexterity if and only if the total time of the fight is LESS THAN 1.074 times the time you would normally spend outside of melee range. clearly, this condition is never satisfied on a normal boss fight. for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.

please correct this on the front page for those thinking that minor run speed is worth getting.
apologies...in my haste i also made a grave error. it should read...

i should consider the total dps and not just the incremental changes. let D be your dps without a boot enchant. then for the minor run speed to be better we need the following...

(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)

which simplifies to


T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)


where k = 1/1.08. my model, for example, gives A = .16286, and so we have

T < (.07581D + 1.074) t

so i was off by that extra term - 0.07581D. so lets use some actual data. i believe i do between 900 and 1000 dps on azgalor. so for that fight, we have

T < 76.88t

the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor.

so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation.
#2228SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ilmater
Leather, leather, leather. Period. The armor mail gives you is minimally better than leather, and not worth it. If you were resto or elemental, then your shield makes it worth sticking with mail, but as enhancement, you don't need the INT or MP5 that your gear gives you, so go with leather in almost EVERY situation.

And I agree with what others said... there is no one stat to increase, just get items with the most AEP.
I prefer mail for one simple reason: Rogues get far more out of their gear than we do. A rogue and an enhancement shaman in the exact same leather gear, the rogue will come out better on top every time. If a leather piece drops and a rogue needs it, they get first crack. If a mail piece drops, screw hunters. Seriously. Many mail pieces are also actually superior to the equivalent tier leather for us. Right now I'd consider wearing only 1 piece of leather from Black Temple: Cursed Vision and one piece from SSC: Belt of One Hundred Deaths.

You're also going to be fighting with rogues for trinkets, especially Dragonspine Trophy. It's worth laying off their leather to keep equal footing for some trinkets, cloaks and jewelry. The whole thing is really dependent on the way your guild handles loot and the players involved anyway.
#2229SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by SardonicJoe1
the fight lasts for about 5-6 minutes i think. so for 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds, which are conditions certainly met on azgalor.

so the original poster on this topic has a correct conclusion but slightly flawed derivation.
I can't think of a fight that its not met for. KZ maybe not so much. But a 25 man boss? Every one of them involves movement to some degree greater than 4 seconds.
#2230SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3MrProcrastin8
Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it. I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands. I'm just putting on autoattack while having healing stream and stoneskin down to help survive the 5 minutes. I'm not stormstriking, because I don't think my mana can sustain for that long. So far, I'm getting better results with the two daggers. I know not stormstriking may have something to do with that, but not sure how to figure that in without going oom. Also, I figure I have to do each test more than once, I'm thinking 3 of each should be sufficient.

There's obviously something I'm missing. Help
#2231SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
I can't think of a fight that its not met for. KZ maybe not so much. But a 25 man boss? Every one of them involves movement to some degree greater than 4 seconds.
Reliquary of Souls, Anetheron, and ideally Na'jentus and Teron require zero movement. You shouldn't have to move on Naj since you should be in click range of the people next to you for spines, and running out on Teron is very infrequent, it's better to be safe when you get shadow and get out with enough time to spare than to risk staying in too long and dying too close to him.

Originally Posted by MrProcrastin8

There's obviously something I'm missing. Help
Water shield returns enough mana for a Stormstrike in roughly 10 seconds. Between spirit ticks and Water shield, you'll never run out of mana just SSing.
#2232SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
More attacks = more chance to proc. Meaning that by excluding 2 attacks every 10 seconds via Stormstrike it is possible that you are seeing better results with the faster weapons (judging by your crit rate flurry is probably up 50%?, pretty unfair to exclude SS in this kind of test). It's been tested more times than people have asked, "WILL FT BE BETTER OH LOLZ????", but each person needs to do the tests themselves to be satisfied. Good luck to you on your endeavors!
#2233SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by MrProcrastin8
Sorry to still be the forum noob, but, to help convince my guildies, I'm going to do the tests myself. But I need help on exactly how to do it.
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#2234SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hozzer
Originally Posted by Malan
Actually Strawberry (I think?) asked about this a few pages back with the Reflex blades, and after testing he found exactly what I told him - that the Reflex in MH and an AH green 2.6 was better than either of the epic daggers. I'd hang onto them for whenever those shaman talent changes come out just in case though.
When I saw this I immediately went to the first post to make sure one of the mantras of enhancement itemization I'd been sticking to steadfastly hadn't changed:

The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. The fast OH is more likely to hit again after a WF cooldown and therefore has the first opportunity to proc a new WF and trigger the cooldown again. OH interference prevents MH WF procs and thus reduces your DPS. It has been shown that this cooldown interference is so severe that replacing an epic dagger OH with a green or blue 2.6 speed OH will actually increase your DPS. (Again, despite this problem, it is still preferrable to have WF on the OH. Any WF proc, even on the OH, will result in more DPS over time than FlameTongue or Rockbiter on the OH.)
The only reason this immediately came to mind is that when Reflex Blades dropped for me, I immediately set about to find an oppropriate offhand, ideally something 2.7 or 2.8 speed. I found, I'm sure to no one's surprise, that a suitable weapon did not exist before BT/MTH, so I stuck with Mag'hari Fury Brand MH/2.6 Green OH. Was this a mistake?

I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok?
#2235SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by hozzer
When I saw this I immediately went to the first post to make sure one of the mantras of enhancement itemization I'd been sticking to steadfastly hadn't changed:



The only reason this immediately came to mind is that when Reflex Blades dropped for me, I immediately set about to find an oppropriate offhand, ideally something 2.7 or 2.8 speed. I found, I'm sure to no one's surprise, that a suitable weapon did not exist before BT/MTH, so I stuck with Mag'hari Fury Brand MH/2.6 Green OH. Was this a mistake?

I've been adhering to the premise that the offhand must be as slow as or slower than the mainhand slavishly. Should this be tested further? If an offhand weapon that is .1 or .2 seconds faster is not appreciably detrimental to our DPS, but one that is 1 second or more is, does that mean that any combination of weapons above 2.0 speed (or rather above 1.5 speed when hasted) probably ok?

You do not need to find OH that is slower than MH. You need to find OH as slow as possible - feel the difference Out of 3 weapons that you have the best combo is Reflex MH + Mag'hari Fury Brand OH.
Go to Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo put your stats in and change weapon speeds - you will see how it works.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/06/07 at 8:47 PM.
#2236SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).
#2237SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Ayror
(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this right, but I think you might be trying to find justification to have GoA in your group?
#2238SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ayror
Hey all...I can't seem to find the chart that shows group gains from a shaman. I believe there was a chart that compared GoA vs. Windfury. If someone can link me a chart that shows dps gains from shaman buffs, I'd love that. Ty in advance.

(I'm trying to show raid leader that having the druid in my group is more dps than another rogue while putting the druid in a group with 2 hunters lol).
War/rog/rog/rog or war/sham and hunter/hunter/X/X/feral will out perform war/feral/rog/rog/sham and hunter/hunter/x/x/x 9 times out of 10. Time 10 is when you're doing Gurtogg and a hunter/hunter/shadowp/resto sham/x group is an excellent bloodboil group and having a feral with your shaman means higher threat. Enhancement shamans should NEVER BE DROPPING GOA IN RAIDS realistically, leave that for the resto shamans.
#2239SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
lol i would never drop goa in raid. I was just referencing that chart cause it had the stats on it.
#2240SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.

At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed?

Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones.

Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be.
#2241SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
for example, on a 5 minute fight, you would have had to spend 4 minutes and 39 seconds outside of melee range for cats swiftness to be worthwhile.
I am really impressed that you thought this could possibly be the correct answer with this kind of an example.

I'm doing 5 minute tests in the blasted lands.
Don't do this. The Blasted Lands NPCs will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever return accurate results when doing DPS comparisons involving Windfury. Try it on real bosses or at least even level mobs.
#2242SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Muj
Hey I was browsing over my atlas loot last night checking out the tier 6 pieces in more detail and it occured to me that the itemization on tier 6 is quite different to tier 5. Tier 6 pieces drop a bit of hit rating and pick up more on crit and for some very odd reason, mp5. Is this possibly because blizzard has not changed it like they did with tier 4/5 earlier on in the year? And if so I wonder when they are going to change it.

At the moment I have 4/5 tier 5 and the 4 set bonus is just so good I can;t get over it, looking at the t6 set bonuses makes my eyes burn, like what do I need 10% off the shock costs with the up coming changes to shaman talents? And why would 70 more attack power be better than 5% more attack speed?

Tier 6 just seems somewhat inferior to tier 5 in regards to itemization, the only piece I am going to want is the legs as they are vastly superior to the tier 5 ones.

Has anyone else taken note of this yet? I am just wondering if my thoughts are correct because I am trying to get my head around what my end game raiding set will be.
The exact same question was asked a few pages ago.
#2243SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Teirz
I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.

It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself.

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

Last edited by Teirz : 09/07/07 at 2:55 AM.
#2244SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
The only fight I can drop GOA is Illidari Council. I get 2 hunters, a rogue and a tanking druid in my group. All other melee is tanking or interrupting heals so they don't really need WF because their damage is low anyway.
#2245SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kaubel
Originally Posted by Ayror
lol.
Don't do this.

Ever.
#2246SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
TradewindKlaatubarada
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:

AP=3200
Crit=32%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=2,16%
HR=1,83%
HaR=2,15%
STR=2,2
Agil=2,1
AP=3400
Crit=40%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=1,97%
HR=2,12%
HaR=1,13%
STR=2,2
Agil=1,91
Weird behaviour? hit over crit in value?
AP=3600
Crit=45%
Hit=23%

AP=1
CR=1,56%
HR=1,39%
HaR=0,54%
STR=2,2
Agil=1,52
I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/07/07 at 9:57 AM.
#2247SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Teirz
I wouldn't say NEVER drop GOA, but is situational for some mobile fight. For example for lurker fight my guild is using rouge/enh shaman to tank the adds so basically our melee group are all spread out beside maybe a rogue/war will be near me. Overall dps would be better by using goa than wf consider that for most time wf only benefits 1 rogue and while goa push both yourself and the rogue resulting a better dps output overall.

It's really depends on grouping and the fight itself.

A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.

Nope, we haven't been back to Vashj in months. Thank god I got the prism when I did.

For lurker we have 2 prot warriors and a feral, so the melee are always in the center platform dpsing the male nagas. On council we go with myself, a rogue and a dps warrior on gaithos full time and the veras feral or warrior, and a PoH priest who deals with gaithos tank healing and group healing for the melee. Being on Gaithos full time I often have to twist tranquil so GoA would be non-viable. The hunters in our guild have a campaign to get the resto shamans to spec Imp GoA, since they only get them.
#2248SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Teirz
A question to Shabadu, have you tested on belt of one-hundred death for the weapon skill thingy? I assume it should be the best belt for non-orc enh shaman in my earlier post but i will need some testing to make sure it is true.
I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?
#2249SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Nemaa
I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?
It is, from my experience.

Edit: remember not to use axes tho
#2250SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Nemaa
I'm interested in this question as well. Is it better than [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] and [Boneweave Girdle]?
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I from 2 pages ago. I use double Syphon in most circumstances so it'd be pretty huge for me. Talon of Alar/Syphon with the belt would be a decent combo after the patch too I suppose.
#2251SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
A chance for you (yes, You!) to help improve this thread!

I'm working on converting this thread over to the theorycraft wiki, and I need some information. There's a few things that we've discussed that have been lost to the ages but are "common knowledge" that I need some actual math/testing to backup the reasoning for. I've been trying to locate this stuff but I'm failing at searching and having a general lack of time between work/raiding/writing.

So, if people can PM me or post here if they have a link to the info, or if they can rework it here for us, it'd be much appreciated. (Please don't just tell me "its a few pages back" as that could mean anything these days)

Info I need:
  • Do we have some better reasoning for the crit dmg meta gem, other than the rudimentary reasoning I have in the OP right now? Theoretical dps value or something?
  • I have the math showing the new WF as still good for rogues, lacking such evidence for Warriors.
  • Anyone still have a link to Flametongue vs WF for OH?
  • And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.

Last edited by Malan : 09/07/07 at 12:04 PM.
#2252SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:


I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.
Can not reproduce these results in my sim for second and third quote. What were other stats? Haste, weapon speed, weapon dps and weapon skill? Remember to set Hours to 1000+, 10000 is recommended. Hit should be close to Crit in second quote with Crit still better. Haste is way too small in third quote (maybe you copied armor penetration instead?)
#2253SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Malan
  • specific reasoning on DW vs 2H for PvE - I know its largely because of flurry/UR uptime, but I lack the specifics, ie - impossible to maintain greater than X flurry uptime with Z crit rate, etc
Well not just that, but DW benefits more from AP than 2h. Since 2h gets it benefit from 1.0 times AP, which Duel Weild gains benefit from 1.5 times AP (since ap affects both MH and OH -- this is if you have capped +hit however). With 0% hit, 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. As you can see, the more +hit we have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base dps of a 2h weapon over similar ilevel 1h weapons.

So uh, in other words, as well as improved uptime of UR, you'll also have higher white dmg while DWing.
#2254SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Thanks that's good info.
#2255SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
[*]I cannot locate the original evidence of the 36% proc rate for DW windfury.
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#2256SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
I dual wield because it allows for two weapon imbues, two weapon enchants and gives 1 dps per 10.5 AP rather than 1 dps per 14.

Increased flurry and UR uptime is just icing on the cake.
#2257SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Disquette - so it was not a mathematical conclusion, rather, an observed behavior.
#2258SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
[dual wield] gives 1 dps per 10.5 AP rather than 1 dps per 14.
This is a pretty gross oversimplification. The amount of AP needed for 1 DPS scales with the amount of +hit you have, and the ratio at which it scales changes based on whether or not your special attacks are hit capped or not.

Well not just that, but DW benefits more from AP than 2h. Since 2h gets it benefit from 1.0 times AP, which Duel Weild gains benefit from 1.5 times AP (since ap affects both MH and OH -- this is if you have capped +hit however). With 0% hit, 2h effectively gains (1.0 * 0.95 hit rate) = 0.95 from AP and DW gains (1.5 * 0.74 hit rate) = 1.11 from AP. As you can see, the more +hit we have (until we reach cap) the greater the difference between the two is. At a certain point (easily reached when raid buffed), this difference in gain from AP will outweigh the bonus base dps of a 2h weapon over similar ilevel 1h weapons.
This is more or less correct. Another major reason is that you must heavily pad your threat when using a 2Her since a single Windfury is a tremendous amount of threat, which cuts in to your total DPS time. Additionally, it is basically impossible to escape some amount of +hit that inevitably goes to waste when you are using a two-handed weapon, and there is no talent that offsets the extra 6% hit from dual wielding [i.e. you can't spend points elsewhere if you wanted to use a two hander, there are just no other useful points to spend at that point in the tree]. The talents that a Shaman gets are good enough for dual wielding that DW (up to 9% hit) is automatically more sustained DPS than using a 2H weapon (up to 3% hit). The ratio described above is .94:1.245 with a 0/42/19 build, and dual wielding also allows all special attacks to be hit-capped through talents alone.
#2259SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
That's correct Malan. Other people, I found out later, had mathematical/theoretical reasons for the 36% being the right number, as opposed to a different number 34 to 37%. I found them compelling enough, and in line with the data enough, that I've used 36% ever since.
#2260SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok I've added in all the stuff from above.
#2261SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR.
How on earth are you getting nearly 2000 AP from raid buffs? The highest I've gotten consistently (and granted, I don't have Ashtongue Talisman of Vision) is 2800-ish, AFTER unleashed rage, and I've only got ~50 AP less than you unbuffed.

Edit: Oh, er, you're wearing a Wavemender's Mantle in your armory profile. What do you usually wear?

Last edited by Xoya : 09/07/07 at 12:59 PM.
#2262SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Yo!
Can not reproduce these results in my sim for second and third quote. What were other stats? Haste, weapon speed, weapon dps and weapon skill? Remember to set Hours to 1000+, 10000 is recommended. Hit should be close to Crit in second quote with Crit still better. Haste is way too small in third quote (maybe you copied armor penetration instead?)
Dragonstrike MH (current dps), Rod of the Sun King OH (with 100 DPS new value).

Both hasted to 2.61 (so I didn't introduce haste but just put the actual speed value that I get from Fists of Mukoa).

356 Weapon Skill Rating (Belt of One Hundred Deaths).

4400 armor on boss (default I think).

23% hit (I assumed it works like 12% from talents + 9% from hit rating in my gear)

The rest as you know. All tests were done at 1000 swings.

EDIT: I think it counted as if I had T6 bonus on tho, obviously I don't. Neither Ashtongue, wich is always up. With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry

Valyra, we have same AP when you have flask up :p

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/07/07 at 1:35 PM.
#2263SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
The maths behind the 36% proc rate is that both hands have 20% chance to proc WF after the CD is over. This can also be written as an 80% chance to not proc WF. Since both actions (weapon swings) can separately start a single event (WF) you can say

0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 chance for neither swings to proc a WF = 36% proc chance.
#2264SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan
  • And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.

The idea of offhand procs "stealing" mainhand procs came from the Blizzard forums, and I think all the threads about it have been pruned by now. I don't recall any serious evaluation on this forum.

"OH eating MH problem" brought up here, and discussed sporadically over the next 2 pages (earliest post I could find on this forum that mentioned OH swings stealing MH procs): The Change to Windfury and You! (does not apply to warriors)


I posted test results related to this problem on page 11 of that thread. The conclusions I drew from the test at the time were flawed for a number of reasons, but the data is useful at least. I don't think anyone else has posted test data on this problem.

Don't want to quote the entire thing here, but it's on page 11 of the thread. I was using Black Planar Edge/Malchazeen and logging my number of mainhand vs offhand procs to see how it comapared to my mainhand vs offhand white swings.

White swings: 40% mainhand / 60% offhand
WF procs: 43.36% mainhand / 56.64% offhand


As far as I can tell, a fast offhand interferes with your total windfury damage by keeping you on 3-second cooldown a greater portion of the time. It does not interfere with mainhand windfury specifically (i.e. it interferes with MH and OH windfury equally). Several times people have referred to the offhand "eating" or "stealing" mainhand procs but I've never seen any data supporting that and I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean.
#2265SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yah I dislike the eating/stealing wording as well, and also the notion that it "lowers" your DPS. Its not really lowering anything by using a faster OH, its just capping you at a lower potential DPS.
#2266SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
Dragonstrike MH (current dps), Rod of the Sun King OH (with 100 DPS new value).

EDIT: I think it counted as if I had T6 bonus on tho, obviously I don't. Neither Ashtongue, wich is always up. With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry
Tabs with procs and details are not working (no item proc was modelled) - they are for show of what I am going to do. If you think something is missing in design - please point to it.
If you have an idea of better add-free hosting somewhere - I will use it.

Important: If you do not put haste directly but put hasted weeapon speeds instead - the AEP value for haste will be higher than real one.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/07/07 at 2:42 PM.
#2267SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
[*]And the big one, I could use some links the original discussions where we illustrated how the WF cooldown makes fast OHs interfere with the procs, I'm lacking a more detailed explanation of it.[/list]
Originally Posted by Lujaar
The idea of offhand procs "stealing" mainhand procs came from the Blizzard forums, and I think all the threads about it have been pruned by now. I don't recall any serious evaluation on this forum..... Several times people have referred to the offhand "eating" or "stealing" mainhand procs but I've never seen any data supporting that and I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean.
You may want to use first or fifth picture from this post Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Originally Posted by Nisall
The maths behind the 36% proc rate is that both hands have 20% chance to proc WF after the CD is over. This can also be written as an 80% chance to not proc WF. Since both actions (weapon swings) can separately start a single event (WF) you can say

0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 chance for neither swings to proc a WF = 36% proc chance.
We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/07/07 at 2:23 PM.
#2268SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
EDIT: Pff, this whole "eligible swings," proc chance per hit stuff is corroding my brain's already poor statistical ability. I've removed possible disinformation until such time that I can better organize it.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/07/07 at 2:45 PM.
#2269SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Malan
Disquette - so it was not a mathematical conclusion, rather, an observed behavior.
The theoretical explaination is that when you have double Windfury enchants, both enchants have a chance to proc on each swing. This gives a (.8 * .8) 64% of no proc, or a 36% chance of proccing per swing. This also explains why quad procs happened with staggered ranks, as there would be a 4% chance of both windfuries proccing on the same swing.

One thing I've never seen mentioned or tested is if WF buffing both weapons applies even if the other weapon has an enchant other than windfury. It seems unlikely, but is theoretically possible.

(source: WoW Forums -> 2.1 Windfury Is Still Bugged! )
#2270SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?
#2271SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
But a 36% proc chance per HAND would result in an in-game proc rate of around 59%.
Why?
#2272SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Been thinking, with the incoming 60% mana reduction to shocks and potential +1000 spelldamage raidbuffed, switching from Water Shield to Lightning Shield in raids will be mana viable, and I suspect very very damage viable also.

There has been any maths on it?
#2273SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Yo -- my error here was confusion over the term "eligible white hits." I think I have just about purged it from my brain, but I do need to go over my WWS data to convince myself of that fact.
#2274SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Is it realistic to expect over 1k spell damage from enhancement shaman, even with the new buffs to the talents?
#2275SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
That would require 3,330 AP at the 30% conversion rate. I'm not sure how many people would be seeing that. 700 spell damage is a more reasonable expectation, requiring only 2330 AP.
#2276SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Do we have some better reasoning for the crit dmg meta gem, other than the rudimentary reasoning I have in the OP right now? Theoretical dps value or something?
Judging by AEP, the stat bonus for the meta possibilities are about equal:
[Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond] - 24aep
[Potent Unstable Diamond] - 24aep
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 24 aep w/ kings
[Swift Skyfire Diamond] - 24 aep

The [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] +3% crit damage bonus works for all crits, spell and melee. So, (pure theoretical) this should result in an increase in your DPS of + ( ( 0.03 * melee_crit% * dps_from_melee ) + ( 0.03 * spell_crit% * dps_from_spells ) )

The advantages of the other meta gems are either PvP related, or gains which can be had in other slots (run speed). This is the only equipment slot where we can add +3% crit damage.
#2277SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan
That would require 3,330 AP at the 30% conversion rate. I'm not sure how many people would be seeing that. 700 spell damage is a more reasonable expectation, requiring only 2330 AP.
I don't have that consistantly, but with trinkets and raid buffs, I hit 500+ SR ticks. Which is around that number. And we're just on vashj/solarian as far as progression.
#2278SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
Originally Posted by Yo!
We are talking about 36% proc chance for each strike to proc WF, not for 2 strikes. It is believed that Blizz uses different proc chance (not 20% but 36%) when dual-wielding for each strike.
The problem lies in the fact that both hands proc the same event. The statement that implies that when dual wielding your proc rate is 36% is saying that there is a 36% chance one of your weapons will proc a windfury.

Just to simplify things;
WF1 = windfury (rank 5) proc from your mainhand
WF2 = windfury (rank 4) proc from your offhand
WF3 = windfury proc from either (doesn't differentiate between MH and OH procs)

various scenarios
-Only equipping a MH you would have a 20% chance to proc WF1
-Only equipping an OH you would have 20% chance to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, pre-WF rank change, your MH has a 20% chance to proc WF1 and your OH has a 20% to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, post-WF rank change, you have a 36% (0.8*0.8) chance to proc WF3

EDIT: Blizzard hasn't changed the proc rate for single vs dualwielding. The confusion just happens when people use the same word to mean different things. Sometimes "WF proc" is used for a specific hand which procs and sometimes "WF proc" refers to any proc that happens.
#2279SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
I like the idea of using that image Yo, but it may be confusing to some people. When examining the graph, combos such as a 3.0/1.0 are in the same region as the 3.0/3.0 combo. Maybe its the scale of the graph - if you were to isolate the ranges of weapons that we're really interested in here (2.8 - 1.4) maybe it would show the effect more clearly?
Hope this helps



Originally Posted by Nisall
The problem lies in the fact that both hands proc the same event. The statement that implies that when dual wielding your proc rate is 36% is saying that there is a 36% chance one of your weapons will proc a windfury.

Just to simplify things;
WF1 = windfury (rank 5) proc from your mainhand
WF2 = windfury (rank 4) proc from your offhand
WF3 = windfury proc from either (doesn't differentiate between MH and OH procs)

various scenarios
-Only equipping a MH you would have a 20% chance to proc WF1
-Only equipping an OH you would have 20% chance to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, pre-WF rank change, your MH has a 20% chance to proc WF1 and your OH has a 20% to proc WF2
-Dualwielding, post-WF rank change, you have a 36% (0.8*0.8) chance to proc WF3

EDIT: Blizzard hasn't changed the proc rate for single vs dualwielding. The confusion just happens when people use the same word to mean different things. Sometimes "WF proc" is used for a specific hand which procs and sometimes "WF proc" refers to any proc that happens.
EDIT: This explains it (each hit has 2 chances to proc WF when dual-wielding)... but why each hit has 2 chances to proc remains unknown (is it intended by Blizz or it is a bug).

Last edited by Yo! : 09/07/07 at 6:38 PM.
#2280SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yo - much better, now we can see the sharper curve on the left side of the graph, illustrating the rising % of OH procs.
#2281SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmater
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I prefer mail for one simple reason: Rogues get far more out of their gear than we do. A rogue and an enhancement shaman in the exact same leather gear, the rogue will come out better on top every time. If a leather piece drops and a rogue needs it, they get first crack. If a mail piece drops, screw hunters. Seriously. Many mail pieces are also actually superior to the equivalent tier leather for us. Right now I'd consider wearing only 1 piece of leather from Black Temple: Cursed Vision and one piece from SSC: Belt of One Hundred Deaths.

You're also going to be fighting with rogues for trinkets, especially Dragonspine Trophy. It's worth laying off their leather to keep equal footing for some trinkets, cloaks and jewelry. The whole thing is really dependent on the way your guild handles loot and the players involved anyway.
I understand wanting to give good leather gear to rogues because it enhances them more than us, but the fact remains that leather gear is the best gear for enhancement shaman. So, if you're coming along to buff all the melee dps, then you should be allowed to roll on leather gear and increase your dps as well as the rogue's.
#2282SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ilmater
I understand wanting to give good leather gear to rogues because it enhances them more than us, but the fact remains that leather gear is the best gear for enhancement shaman. So, if you're coming along to buff all the melee dps, then you should be allowed to roll on leather gear and increase your dps as well as the rogue's.
I only see leather as the best in 4 slots at T6. Helm, bracers, belt and chest. The difference elsewhere is so incredibly marginal as to have intellect and AR tip the favor towards mail.

Sure in Karazhan you have Bladed Shoulderpads and Cowl of Defiance and Edgewalker, and Skulkers greaves being better than many T5 items. But when you consider a 25 man setting, a Rogue brings the best single target dps, scaling better than any other dps class bar none. You are doing your raid a disservice by not allocating items to where they do the most good. You are brought to raids precisely to buff your rogues and warriors, the dps you do in order to buff is considered bonus.

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/07/07 at 5:36 PM.
#2283SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I only see leather as the best in 4 slots at T6. Helm, bracers, belt and chest. The difference elsewhere is so incredibly marginal as to have intellect and AR tip the favor towards mail.
Mignight Chestguard, Insidious Bands, Cursed Vision of Sargeras and Belt of One-Hundred Deaths.
#2284SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
Originally Posted by Yo!
This explains it (each hit has 2 chances to proc WF when dual-wielding)... but why it happens remains unknown.
First of all, a very nice graph showing the relation of MH and OH speeds

The 'why' is normal statistics.

Take a coin and flip it. Each flip has a 50% chance to be heads or tails.

Lets take 2 flips. The 4 different combinations are
heads - heads
heads - tails
tails - heads
tails - tails

[math; h=heads, t=tails]
1. The chance that both flips are heads is 25% [math; 0.5h*0.5h= 0.25h] (you can compare this to the 4% chance to get a dual proc pre rank fix)
2. The chance that at least one flip is heads is 75% [math; 0.5h*0.5t + 0.5t*0.5h + 0.5h*0.5h = 0.75 with at least 1 h] (you can compare this to the 36% chance to any WF proc)
3. The chance for one coin to get heads is 50% (you can compare this to the 20% chance to proc WF from a single weapon)
#2285SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
So we can tell that the best gear for enhancement shamans is listed on THIS link except for gloves what is [Fists of Mukoa] (still best after the haste nerf) and waist what is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Am I right about this?
#2286SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
With Ashtongue up I average 34xx AP. But still, AP shouldn't modify much those values. Btw, could you post the sim somwhere else? All those popups make my Firefox NoScript cry

Valyra, we have same AP when you have flask up :p
Yes, I realized you had a resto piece on after the fact, but I still don't get how you're getting 34xx with raid buffs (which I now realize you mean all average AP including unleashed rage, which you shouldn't be inputting into the sim; sim calculates unleashed rage itself). If you remove the extra AP from ashtongue talisman & unleashed rage, that's about 600 less AP, so let's say 2800 with raid buffs. That's a little more believable, since I think I've calculated that I get about 1100 AP from raid buffs, not including unleashed rage.

The confusion was in the term "raid buffed". I thought it was generally accepted that the term "raid buffed" meant everything but proc effects, so for us, things like unleashed rage, ashtongue talisman, average added crit and ap from mongoose/other trinkets, etc.
#2287SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Nemaa
So we can tell that the best gear for enhancement shamans is listed on THIS link except for gloves what is [Fists of Mukoa] (still best after the haste nerf) and waist what is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Am I right about this?
Lootzor is missing a few important pieces of gear (or was the last time I looked), but generally it'll point you in the right direction.

I've been using Thottbot World of Warcraft: Customize Item Score Multipliers and doing searches on each slot lately though. Unfortunately it assigns values to gem slots directly instead of assigning points based on actual gems/bonuses though.
#2288SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Unaz
Lootzor is missing a few important pieces of gear (or was the last time I looked), but generally it'll point you in the right direction.
It's actually missing the -armor and the haste items. After 2.2 haste items will be way worse (except for the gloves) so it does not really matter. There are not too much armor penetration items for us and we don't really know it's value, thus we can ignore them as well. (By the way I use 1 armor penetration = 0.27 AEP value in pawn)
#2289SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Nemaa
So we can tell that the best gear for enhancement shamans is listed on THIS link except for gloves what is [Fists of Mukoa] (still best after the haste nerf) and waist what is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Am I right about this?
I guess it's up to you and the values you like/use. In my list both items do not even make it into the top3.
#2290SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Beroll
I guess it's up to you and the values you like/use. In my list both items do not even make it into the top3.
Thats because your list doesnt give any value to +skill and +haste. The +skill makes the belt by far the best in the game currently. (and thats with most formulas possibly even underestimating +skill if I'm not misinformed)
#2291SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).

Also, I would like to lose some words about specc. I recently read a post in the official forum (please don't laugh at me for reading it) who claimed to have the "agreed on best talent build", but it had Imp. Ghostwolf for example. I don't see how such a build could be the best there is.
#2292SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Ujai
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).
Crit gives the expected damage increase plus damage through increased flurry/UR uptime. The more you gain though the closer those uptimes get to 100% and the smaller the return on each additional % is.
#2293SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ryley
Originally Posted by Ujai
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).

Also, I would like to lose some words about specc. I recently read a post in the official forum (please don't laugh at me for reading it) who claimed to have the "agreed on best talent build", but it had Imp. Ghostwolf for example. I don't see how such a build could be the best there is.
Imp. Ghostwolf is useful for running between Air Elementals in SMV, but that's about it, though for a raid DPS spec I don't see where else you would put those points, mental quickness maybe?
#2294SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Ujai
Maybe I'm dumb or blind, but what's the math behind crit getting worse the more you have? I don't remember reading that in this thread (although this might be due to reading it some time ago).

Well, the complete math behind it would depend on whose model you are using. You can check all the excellent sims and calculators here to see for yourself. As far as the intuition goes, its because a large part of our dps is determined by a multiplicative function that includes all relevant stats.

Let me give you a couple of examples:

say you do 100dps, but you have 0 crit. Then you add about 5% crit. That is a 5% dps increase (105/100). Now consider that you have accumulated gear to the point where you have 30% crit, all else constant: all of the sudden, an additional 5% crit will not get you a 5% dps increase (135/130=~3.8%)

Alternatively, think of it this way: item stats cost the same, but give uneven benefits depending on how much you have of them. if you have 100 crit rating and 0 attack power, you'd be better off switching some crit out for ap. So its not that crit gets "worse," just that, depending on your stat allocation, you see different benefits from each stat. The goal, then, is to get to that point where you get the most out of a given stat budget.
#2295SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
smokey
I'd like to know what is the ultimate combo of weapons for DW, i just got the Syphon (/w axe arena S2) from supremus, and i guess the best options are :

- 2xsyphons
- rising tide + syphon
- dragonstrike + syphon

I know all those options are very viable, but i'm looking for the very best optimisation, and i can afford respec forge. So if someone know about it, tell me plz.

sorry for my newbish question and my english p

edit : I did some test with the servant in the blasted, it apears that the syphon gives best DPS when its MH equiped (/w axe arena S2 in OH) :

500k sample, auto attack, no SS :

syphon + axe S2 = 875 DPS
axe S2 + syphon = 887 DPS

Last edited by smokey : 09/07/07 at 10:51 PM.
#2296SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
I liked the sim. I found interesting that at higher level gear, crit gets it's value down. AP is a safe addition all the time. I've socketed all my BT/MH gear with red gems (ignoring +agil bonuses) and then socketed Belt of One-Hundred Deaths with green/blue gems, since I'll keep it for a long time. Altough I could've switched it with a red gem somewhere else, I'll keep the blue/green requirements for metagem there since I doubt I'll change that piece in a long time, whilst socketing +10 STR gems all over other parts.

Interesting data:







I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit) and looking forward putting all my gems into STR. I'm hoping to get 45% crit soon when I loot some more agility items and switch some other stuff over, while maintaining 3500 AP due to gems.

Always choosing best AEP gear + socketing STR gems no matter what seems the way to go. Also looking forward to +damage/heal from AP. Definitely STR rocks the charts.
I'm confused. Are you wearing tier 12?
#2297SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I'm confused. Are you wearing tier 12?
Was thinking the same thing here.

Theres no way having 3500 AP while maintaining 45% constant crit with the current itemzation.

I remember reading once in my old fury warrior days that Crit go into diminishing returns once you go over 33% crit unbuffed. However, From what I can fathom it's pretty darn easy reaching this once you reach BT/MH.

Btw, Good job on the number crunching peeps.. it makes my days in college run much smoother crunching numbers
#2298SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
He probably means raid buffed with UR, Rallying Cry, and Power Surge up! Hyjal is the only place I've been able to reach those numbers. 38% crit with.. a feral druid and retadin maybe?
#2299SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bragor
He's saying 3500 AP with 45% Crit. Crit alone will be on a short duration timer which will be attained when you have EVERYTHING procing at the same time.

Now add him having 3500 AP at the same time... I want a screen shot if possible
#2300SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vokzhen
Glancing through here to reduce my ignorance, and just thought I'd point out your Shock calculations are incorrect in the opening post. Multipliers are multiplicative.
Earth Shock - 1.05*1.2 = 1.26%
Flame Shock - 1.05*.1.15*1.13 ~ 1.364%
#2301SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
T.K.
Sup all,

Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not.

I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this?

Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway...

Numbers?

Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH?

Last edited by T.K. : 09/08/07 at 3:13 AM. Reason: Wrong name of OH
#2302SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by T.K.
Sup all,

Hey, we've been discussing the relation between Syphon/RT and such, but i didn't see any numbers with Strike/RT - Strike/Syphon in the way to point us if we should swap the Strike (for those BS out there) for the RT when we get the chance to it or not.

I know the RT get's a higher AEP value than the Strike, but the proc now, before nerf, seems very overhealming to me. So, as people asked that and got no real focused answer on it (threads own minds, anyway), could we stick with this?

Like, once u get the chance to grab RT, Syphon, should we change MH Strike for any of them or not or use Strike MH and RT OH or Syphon OH, anyway...

Numbers?

Edit: Just saw Stigmata armory and saw he's still using Strike in MH with Syphon OH. I was thinking about using the RT at offhand, but i'm in doubt as the Syphon speed is just lewt. any of u guys tried for RT OH compared to Syphon OH both with Strike at MH?
I am having a hard time understanding why people refuse to read, or at least skim through pages to find that their questions have been asked and responded to over and over again. All of the weapon combos have been tested pre haste nerf, the information is all here; just look for it.
#2303SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beowolf
/wave *just showing off new sig :P*
#2304SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
I was curious, is haste rating on items stil as important after the patch ?, i mean item's like Bindings of Lightning Reflexes or Valestalker Girdle wouldend it be beter to replace them with others?
#2305SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
I believe this has been posted in this thread already, but haste rating after the patch is about as valuable to us as hit rating is now.
#2306SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).

I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)"

Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4...idbuffssj0.jpg
#2307SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
Yes I was taking into account UR (100% uptime) and Ashtongue Talisman (80-90%).

I never stated to have 45% crit whilst having 3500 AP, those were stats I made out to point how crit decreased damage when stacked too much (using Yo's sim). I said: "I'm in this last situation, just reached 3500 AP raid buffed (altough around 38% crit)"

Here's the screen; discount both mongooses, add flask and str food. That's the 34xx AP and 38-40% crit I was talking about. And the screen is missing Bow Stitched Leggings with x3 +10 STR gems btw.

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4...idbuffssj0.jpg
3131+120+40+16= 3307, not quite 3500. I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that AP is the best scaling stat, so I'm having a hard time grasping what the original intent of your post was.
#2308SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by rava
3131+120+40+16= 3307, not quite 3500. I was under the impression that it was common knowledge that AP is the best scaling stat, so I'm having a hard time grasping what the original intent of your post was.
No, I reached 34xx. Something's wrong on your math, or you are not taking into account something.

My original post was all about how agility (or crit rating) loses value at some point, then regains it. It was specifically about Yo's sim that shows some weird behaviour. Yes, agility is expected to lose value the higher crit gets, but no, it is not expected to go down then go up again (afaik).

EDIT: on a sidenote, regarding Ashtongue Talisman. It doesn't affect Stormstrike at all (procs after, ends before) but does affect a WF triggered by Stormstrike? Haven't been able to determine this via combat log.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 09/08/07 at 7:29 AM.
#2309SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by vorda
Thats because your list doesnt give any value to +skill and +haste. The +skill makes the belt by far the best in the game currently. (and thats with most formulas possibly even underestimating +skill if I'm not misinformed)
No list is perfect. I did not even try to give a value for weapon skill, haste or reducing armor for example. I see these lists only as a personal help to see what pieces might suit your current need and what alternatives there are.

As long as you are wearing Axes the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths is not very interesting for example. And with the upcoming haste nerf I probably won't wear a single haste rating item. Most lists are also not taking stamina into account even though you need a lot of it in HS/BT.
#2310SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Guldkrull
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.

Last edited by Guldkrull : 09/08/07 at 8:01 AM.
#2311SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Guldkrull
I was wondering if you guys consider it worth to get the merciless gladi helm instead of t4 helm or is it just a waste of points? And if the veteran bracers is better compared to the stalker bands from attumen in kara? This is probably 2 shit questions but i'm trying to get a gear together so i can start raid as an enhancement shaman.
On the first page, you have values for every important stat for an Enhancement shaman. Go there, take those values and do some maths on the items you're trying to compare. You can easily answer yourself.
#2312SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Guldkrull
I think it's more of a matter of opinion. What i rly want to know is if you guys think it's worth to spend the arena points for the merciless helmet or just wait for the t4 head to drop and if it's worth to spend the honor points on the veteran bracer or just keep the bracers from attumen. It's not rly what i said but it was what i meant.
#2313SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Farnite
So has anyone modeled the [Crystalforged Trinket]? Just curious, not sure how I should value + weapon damage.

Thanks
#2314SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3LazyJoe
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.

If you wear a 2.6 speed weapon, you get :

7 / 2.6 = 2.69 dps

2.69 * 14 = 37.36 attack power
#2315SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Well it's really easy, just divide the amount of +damage by your weapon speed, you get the corresponding dps gain, multiply this by 14 and you will get the equivalent in attack power.

If you wear a 2.6 speed weapon, you get :

7 / 2.6 = 2.69 dps

2.69 * 14 = 37.36 attack power
Yous should also multiply it with a certain haste factor, like 1.2x for common flurry uptime.
#2316SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Yous should also multiply it with a certain haste factor, like 1.2x for common flurry uptime.
Uh why? :o I don't think you should, he's trying to compare it to AP which is effectively a flat damage increase on your weapon based upon base weapon speed, AP doesn't change how much dmg it adds per hit when you haste your weapons..

However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea..

E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both).

This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:

So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.

Avg dps added * 14 = AP.

If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.

avg dps added * 14 = AP
#2317SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:

So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.

Avg dps added * 14 = AP.

If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.

avg dps added * 14 = AP
Yes you're right. I'm sorry for the confusion, for a pure aep comparison you do need to weight it with anything.
#2318SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mordinm
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
Uh why? :o I don't think you should, he's trying to compare it to AP which is effectively a flat damage increase on your weapon based upon base weapon speed, AP doesn't change how much dmg it adds per hit when you haste your weapons..

However, you have to take account of the Offhand too. If both weapons are the same speed, the calculation given would be correct however if they aren't it's slightly different. Also, is the bonus halved on the offhand or not? I have no experience on that so have no idea..

E.g. if you have 3.0speed MH and Offhand, and the dmg bonus was +3 (to make math easier :p) then you're adding 1dps on MH and on OH, which is 14 AP.. Which is fine.. However, if it were 3.0 MH and 1.5speed OH. Then 14 AP has the effect of 3 dmg on MH and only 1.5dmg on OH. Thus a +3 dmg boost from item, is now better than 14AP. (since it gives +3 on both).

This then is probably equal to AP according to the formula:

So the correct formula for it is possibly:
If the +7 dmg is halved on OH (this is likely the case):
((7 / MH-speed) + (3.5 / OH-speed) ) / 2 = avg dps added.

Avg dps added * 14 = AP.

If the +7 dmg is not halved on OH:
((7 / MH-speed) + (7 / OH-speed)*2) / 2 = avg dps added.

avg dps added * 14 = AP
It should be weighted to account for unleashed rage which will add 10% AP but will not buff the + weapon damage stat

Avg dps added * 14 /1.1 = AP would be closer to the mark I think.
#2319SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3T.K.
Originally Posted by rava
I am having a hard time understanding why people refuse to read, or at least skim through pages to find that their questions have been asked and responded to over and over again. All of the weapon combos have been tested pre haste nerf, the information is all here; just look for it.
Well, for me it's DAMN STUPID HARDER than, why people only reply without paying attention to questions.

I've been reading this since page 1 started. Even before Malan made the piece of art that's in the front page. I've discussed stuff with Disquette by PM waaaaay before we reached so detailed discussion or even that his simulator was as know or good as it's now. i've read every single post or every single page of this thread and others AND there's no anwser to that question.

ALL the comparisons between weapons were almost all the time made between RT and Syphon. And basically, if i wanted a comparison to AEP values i'd just sum the up and don't waste people's time and my time. What i asked for was people feelings about the weapon. We already now that the AEP of RT is higher than Strike, we already know that after patch haste will have a lower value, pretty close to what +hit equal for us now. What i'm saying and was asking, is that if people feels that the mace is and will still be better with the increased procs because of the haste proc and such. i think i saw like 2 or 3 posts with people saying that with some haste and Flurry up the uptime in Strike was basically the same in PTR.

To me, saying that it has lower AEP than RT and that's it is like saying Flurry hastes the next X atks and that's it. We know it's not stone carved like that.
#2320SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by T.K.
I've discussed stuff with Disquette by PM waaaaay before we reached so detailed discussion or even that his simulator was as know or good as it's now.
Is this the same Disquette who started the rumor that Sunstrider Axe provides more Windfury DPS than epics, in this thread? WoW Forums -> Horde Enhance Shammy - raiding EZ mode
#2321SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Leveret
Is this the same Disquette who started the rumor that Sunstrider Axe provides more Windfury DPS than epics, in this thread? WoW Forums -> Horde Enhance Shammy - raiding EZ mode
Yes, and he's also the guy who's made a large number of contributions to our understanding of shaman mechanics, to include the first simulator we had access to. He fully states in that thread you linked that he goofed up in adding DPS instead of multiplying. He made an error and admitted it, who cares?
#2322SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Leveret
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes, and he's also the guy who's made a large number of contributions to our understanding of shaman mechanics, to include the first simulator we had access to. He fully states in that thread you linked that he goofed up in adding DPS instead of multiplying. He made an error and admitted it, who cares?
I'm just surprised, because I wouldn't expect those to be the same person.

Actually, the fundamental problem in that post is not that he added DPS instead of weapon damage. That was just a small problem compared to the other issue with that calculation: he didn't take into account the number of times Windfury would proc. The beauty of Windfury is that a slower weapon would have harder hitting procs, and a faster weapon would have more procs in a given time, such that the two factors balance each other out, resulting in a flat damage increase without needing normalization at all. Towards the end of that thread he admitted to the error of adding DPS to damage, but he never realized the error of failing to take into account the proc rate. In the last post he still believes that given a high enough attack power the Sunstrider Axe would overtake the epic in damage. But if he took into account the proc rate, he would see that the weapon speed actually drops out completely in the correct calculation for Windfury DPS, so a lower DPS weapon could never overtake a higher DPS weapon regardless of weapon speed.

Last edited by Leveret : 09/09/07 at 2:00 AM.
#2323SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aezoc
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
#2324SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Leveret
Originally Posted by Aezoc
Or maybe he knows more about WF mechanics than you do. Seriously, read the first post. You really have no business commenting on enhancement mechanics if you don't understand something as fundamental as the 3 sec cooldown on WF.
The 3 second cooldown is irrelevant in this simple calculation. Ironically enough, it is actually him who found out that despite the 3 sec cooldown Windfury is still proccing at around 20% rate when dual-wielding. I think it may very well be that those posts are made by a friend of his or something without his permission. Because he clearly knows too much about Windfury mechanics to be making such a fundamental mistake.

Last edited by Leveret : 09/09/07 at 2:22 AM.
#2325SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Spamy
I was looking for some advice on which gear to choose so any help would be appreiated

My armory page with enhancment gear (will change back to elemental some time today so I'll list the gear etc)

I have 1320 ap, 153, 27.19 crit unbuffed

I'm using the Desolation Shoulders (w/ 2 6 str gems) with the Desolation Leggings that gives me 67 hit rating along however in an attempt to increase my ap I was thinking of getting the Forestwalker Kilt from MT and Cyclone shoulders from Maulgar this would give me 128 ap .20%ish more crit at the cost of 50 hit rating, I could also instead of putting either str/ & crit/str sockets use hit/str or hit sockets to try and make up for the loss of hit.

What I really want to know is 103 hit too low or should I go for it, I used to be a guy who thought 200 hit was vital because that's what I had been told (I'm not very good at maths) and was rather confused when everyone started going on about not needing 200 anyway ;p
#2326SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
128 attack power (x 1 = 128 AEP)
4.42 crit rating (x 2 = 8.84 AEP)

total: 136.84 AEP

50 hit rating (x 1.4 = 70 AEP)

total: 70 AEP

If you don't know what AEP is, the first post in this thread has all of the information you need. It will make your gear decisions much easier.

I currently have 82 total hit rating, and at one point it was a lot lower. 103 is just fine. Hit rating gems are never the correct choice.

Last edited by Sebudai : 09/09/07 at 9:12 AM.
#2327SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Spamy
I'm not completely enhancement-braindead but I was wondering if 103 was too low causing me to miss more than I should be, thanks though
#2328SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Has there been any theory crafting on ignore armor stats? I picked up a choker of serrated blades tonight from Bt and I like the look of it so far while being on Gorefiend.. if there has been some speculation could someone point me towards a post or a page number, thanks.
#2329SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hephaustus
As far as I understand, armor penetration isnt a "linear progression" as is attack power, crit, or hit. This makes modeling it very difficult because the value gained from armor pen is based on the armor of the mob you are attacking. Against a mob with lower base armor, armor pen increases your damage a lot more then against a mob with higher base armor. This is because of the way that armor scales (i.e. as you get more armor the amount of mitigation per point of armor decreases.)

This presents a problem because armor isnt universal or available client-side, and it is difficult or impossible to accurately calculate a mobs armor without a LOT of data. That being said, i'd love to see some models/math for it, but sadly im not the man to do it.

Also I do not know whether or not mobs are allowed to go into negative armor.
#2330SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bullworth
On the main page there is a link for Pawn, a customizable item calculator that helps in a weighted item decisions. I for one enjoy a GUI interface for my UI and looked for an alternative for Pawn and ran across ItemValue an ACE2 add-on (forum discussion), which for me wasn't working until a recent patch by the author. It has a simple input for flat values calculations, i.e. linear strings similar to Pawn equations. In addition this add-on has the option of non-linear equations for calculating stat values, which some stats seem to have.
#2331SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Hephaustus
As far as I understand, armor penetration isnt a "linear progression" as is attack power, crit, or hit. This makes modeling it very difficult because the value gained from armor pen is based on the armor of the mob you are attacking. Against a mob with lower base armor, armor pen increases your damage a lot more then against a mob with higher base armor. This is because of the way that armor scales (i.e. as you get more armor the amount of mitigation per point of armor decreases.)

This presents a problem because armor isnt universal or available client-side, and it is difficult or impossible to accurately calculate a mobs armor without a LOT of data. That being said, i'd love to see some models/math for it, but sadly im not the man to do it.

Also I do not know whether or not mobs are allowed to go into negative armor.
Here you go Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
And, no - mobs are not allowed to go into negative armor. So if your raid somehow manages to bring boss to 0 armor -armor will produce 0 benefit.
#2332SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Looking through Rogue DPS Thread I found a link to post [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion where new Miss % and Weapon skill explained. It could be added to the 1st post.
We get 28%(!!!) misses on bosses.
#2333SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
With the upcomming haste nerf, is Dragonstrike still n1 mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH?
#2334SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Hedin
Looking through Rogue DPS Thread I found a link to post [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion where new Miss % and Weapon skill explained. It could be added to the 1st post.
We get 28%(!!!) misses on bosses.
I'm glad this matches up with observered results - It was a bit disconcerting that rogues and shaman seemed to have different hit caps. It's pleasing to know that this (weird) formula explains the odd effects of weapon skill producing effects that explain the discrepencies.

And yes, I'll be keeping my belt of 1000 deaths :-)
#2335SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Krish
Having some trouble with Yo's simulator.

Yo,

The simulator you've put together should prove quite a bit more useful for quick calculations and adjustments than was previously available, so a big thanks. I am having one small issue which is preventing me from using it to its fullest. I currently use a Mac, and the default text for the Java applet is perhaps larger than the Windows default. This is pushing much of the text (and especially the resulting AEP values) outside the visible bounds of the Java frame. It also means the text boxes into which stats are entered do not show the whole number. I don't seem to be able to figure a way around this on the client side, but if you have a suggestion or could fix the server side, that would be a fantastic help to us Mac users.

Thanks so much,

Kresh
#2336SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Muj
Originally Posted by hellraiser
With the upcomming haste nerf, is Dragonstrike still n1 mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH?
Why would you consider that? Honestly it amazes me why people don't want to go for double Syphons, it has 365 top end damage, the proc rate is about 15 ppm in a raid and it would allow for the best possible stormstrike and windfury crits in the game for us as a class...
#2337SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Krish
Yo,

The simulator you've put together should prove quite a bit more useful for quick calculations and adjustments than was previously available, so a big thanks. I am having one small issue which is preventing me from using it to its fullest. I currently use a Mac, and the default text for the Java applet is perhaps larger than the Windows default. This is pushing much of the text (and especially the resulting AEP values) outside the visible bounds of the Java frame. It also means the text boxes into which stats are entered do not show the whole number. I don't seem to be able to figure a way around this on the client side, but if you have a suggestion or could fix the server side, that would be a fantastic help to us Mac users.

Thanks so much,

Kresh
Thanks for this info. Can you post a screenshot so I will see how it appears on Macs?

Originally Posted by Disquette
And yes, I'll be keeping my belt of 1000 deaths :-)
I modelled it using this shaman (applied raid buffs to him too) and it looks so that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Items - World of Warcraft would benefit him more (1061 dps) than his Valestalker Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft (1059 dps) even though his off-hand is an axe. If he would wear mace in off-hand his expected dps would be 1069.

By the way - all critical switches and detailed report are available now in Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo in hope that you will come and play with it for some time Disquette as your other bug-report helped greatly

Last edited by Yo! : 09/09/07 at 8:13 PM.
#2338SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kreltok
Originally Posted by Muj
Why would you consider that? Honestly it amazes me why people don't want to go for double Syphons, it has 365 top end damage, the proc rate is about 15 ppm in a raid and it would allow for the best possible stormstrike and windfury crits in the game for us as a class...
Even with the +23 top end damage over dragonstrike and the proc, is that enough to make up for the loss of the haste proc from dragonstrike?
#2339SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I still can't get your sim to run on my Mac G5 Yo, even after updating to the absolute latest java stuff from Sun/Apple, in either Firefox or Safari.
#2340SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Krish
Malan,

I had this same problem. The fix is to go to Apple Developer Connection and download the beta of Java 6. You'll want to read the file that describes how to go into java prefs and drag Java 6 to the top of the list for loading. Took me a good 20 minutes to figure out that solution, so I hope it helps. As for a screenshot the site seems to be down at the moment, but I'll try to provide one soon.

- Kresh
#2341SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shamif
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?

I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace.

Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT?

Armory link
The Armory

I have a malca rotting in my bank for skillups
dont gimme the get a epic offhand thing we are working on al'ar

Last edited by Shamif : 09/09/07 at 9:04 PM.
#2342SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Shamif
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?

I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace.

Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT?

Armory link
The Armory

I have a malca rotting in my bank for skillups
dont gimme the get a epic offhand thing we are working on al'ar
DO NOT SPEAK OF FLAMETOUNGE HERE.
#2343SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I don't even understand what that question means. It looks like a thinly veiled request to rationalize the use of FT.
#2344SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo!
I compared your most recent version of your sim against my model. They pretty much match the DPS now, difference is in the ~3% range with the default values, which is well in the expected range of assumed ideal distributions on my end.
You're UR & flurry uptime is very close to mine (again ~2%) compared to my most recent flurry model (which basically ignores the stormstrike "help" for now, since I'll probably change the stormstrike modelling a bit).


So as far as I've seen it, you're sim is looking real nice from the modelling point of view.
#2345SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok Yo, got your sim finally working on my mac, here's how it looks on a mac in firefox.
You can see that all the stuff on the right is getting cut off.
Attached Thumbnails
picture_1.png  
#2346SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Shamif
Is there a point where your mainhand can outgear your offhand to a point where you should switch to a fast offhand with FT?

I am asking because I am currently using dragonmaw (soon dragonstrike) and the 2.6 blue pvp mace.

Is there a point where your 70somethin dps offhand stealing WF procs from your 100ish MH Can cause lower dps than a slow/WF fast(20+ dps higher)/FT?
The basic problem with your question is that you are assuming that the MH proc rate is significantly lower with double WF than with MH only WF, but with a 2.6 speed OH this is not true due to that the proc rate per swing goes from 20% to 36% with double WF. If you are using a slow OH, it doesn't "steal" MH procs in the first place.
#2347SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stekespade
Yes, it's one more of those who haven't bothered looking through 90~ pages and 2,3k~ posts having a question!

I have failed to find a searching mechanic on the forum and I couldn't find anything about it on the main page. What about 2xSyphon for a shaman?
#2348SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo!
By the way - all critical switches and detailed report are available now in Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo in hope that you will come and play with it for some time Disquette as your other bug-report helped greatly
I think that your sim is working a lot better now. I am seeing values more in-line with what I expected. At 2650 AP, 33% Crit, 17.37% Hit, 0 Haste/-AC I got:
AP = 1
CR = 2.08
HitR = 1.65
HasteR = 1.1
-AC = 0.27
STR = 2.2
AGI = 2.02
These all seem like fairly reasonable values, I am surprised that Haste is so low but I also think that was the least-well-supported AEP we created initially. My initial reaction was to think that was a high value for -AC but that means the -175 AC on [Choker of Serrated Blades] is worth 47 AP, so Blizzard may have the item budget for this stat in about the right spot, comparing to [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. We'd expect the former to be worth 35+37*2/3+47/2 = 83 item budget points and the latter to be worth 21+27+36 = 84 points (ignoring the effect that stat stacking has on item budget). My DPS does come out a little low (997), so perhaps the default value of 4400 mob armor is a little high.

Last edited by Rob : 09/10/07 at 1:41 AM.
#2349SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Thanks for all the updates guys. I'm sorry if this counts as a "useless post", but I believe in public thanks ;-)
#2350SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Krish
Fixed my own issue.

Last edited by Krish : 09/10/07 at 5:55 AM. Reason: Resolved my own issue... nothing to see here.
#2351SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hedin
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-(
#2352SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Hedin
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-(
According to tests, its same as on live, no?
#2353SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Hedin
Anyone know anything about PPM nerf? http://elitistjerks.com/471929-post525.html
Is proc chance going to be calculated on current speed not the base one? Thay are killing haste in every way :-(
I thought I had read that the ppm is same on live as on test, can't seem to find the post, but i'm sure it was in this thread.
#2354SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dukes
Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste
#2355SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Winfurae
alright, I see.

Last edited by Winfurae : 09/10/07 at 8:59 AM.
#2356SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
If you have being keeping track of this thread for weeks how can you possibly ask about hitrating? It only gets asked twice per page of this thread.

Never ever socket hit gems

You get enough hit through your talents + the hit rating alot of items have.
#2357SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
People don't really like posts like this (when you ask for advice, especially when it was asked many many times before) and "lol" is what you should not use here.

Generally hit rating is a useful stat but I don't really have a goal to get x amount of it. I take items that are upgrades and consider hit rating as a bonus.
#2358SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Misanthrope
Good day everyone.

I'm a rogue captain in my guild and we don't have a lot of shaman, so currently we're aligning them with their roles rather than a specific class captain. As such, the enhancement shammies are under my watch.

I currently have one shaman who is, putting it plainly, a complete pain in the arse. We essentially have to badger him for several minutes to get him to use WF over GOA.

Our Melee DPS group usually includes:
3 Rogues (all combat daggers - thanks Karazhan for that total lack of OH swords!)
1 DPS Warrior or BM Hunter
1 Feral Druid in cat form

What I don't understand is:

How much is he gimping his personal DPS here to use WF over GOA? I know how much of a gain it is for a rogue, but I know next to nothing about shammie DPS (hence my consulting you wise folks).

Thanks.
#2359SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Malan
@Misanthrope - His personal DPS gain from GoA is nowhere near what the Warrior is losing by not having WF.

Now, on the days where you have no warrior, and your group is Hunter/Feral/Rogues/Shaman, I would recommend GoA. But if the warrior is there? WF, hands down, no excuse.



@Yo! - Whatever you changed to your sim recently, I am unable to view the AEP values on both Linux and OS X in Firefox, the applet cuts off the portion of the display where the AEP values should be. DPS values for my gear seem pretty damn reasonable for a high level armor mob.
Attached Thumbnails
screenshot_yo_sim.png  

Last edited by Malan : 09/10/07 at 10:27 AM.
#2360SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Misanthrope
Our Melee DPS group usually includes:
3 Rogues (all combat daggers - thanks Karazhan for that total lack of OH swords!)
1 DPS Warrior or BM Hunter
1 Feral Druid in cat form.
How are you fitting 6 people in the melee DPS group? :P

GoA is only worth a few % of crit for the shaman. He'll lose maybe 4% of his damage (and that's extremely generous) for a 20% increase in main hand damage for all the rogues and warriors. If you have 3 rogues or a warrior and two rogues in the group, Windfury is still the best option by quite a lot.
#2361SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
As of next patch haste rating is being nerfed, so my simple qeustionis, would Dragonstrike still the best mainhand for a enhancement shammy?
or would it be beter with Rising Tide in MH and Syphon of the Nathrezim in OH? or 2xSyphon of the Nathrezim?
#2362SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I think we've now asked that question twice per day, once per page for the last 10 days.
#2363SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Misanthrope
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
How are you fitting 6 people in the melee DPS group? :P
Errr. Alliance-only secret. OK, maybe it's 2 rogues, 1 shammie, warrior, and kitty.

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
GoA is only worth a few % of crit for the shaman. He'll lose maybe 4% of his damage (and that's extremely generous) for a 20% increase in main hand damage for all the rogues and warriors. If you have 3 rogues or a warrior and two rogues in the group, Windfury is still the best option by quite a lot.
His argument was more due to the fact that his personal Windfury Weapon + GOA is far superior to the WF totem. That's the part I'm having trouble rebutting due to lack of knowledge.
#2364SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
vorda
If you have 3 rogues
Cant back this up with math atm, but I'm fairly confident that this isnt true anymore post nerf. Iirc, the combat dagger spreadsheet already had a very small difference between GoA and WF (because combat dagger has less yellow hits than combat sword), now with rogue yellow hits not proccing WF at all, GoA should be very very close.

edit:
His argument was more due to the fact that his personal Windfury Weapon + GOA is far superior to the WF totem. That's the part I'm having trouble rebutting due to lack of knowledge.
For him personally it obviously is, since WF totem does nothing for HIM. But you bring an enhance shaman to buff his group mainly, everything extra (personal dps) is less important.

As said, GoA is at best 4% of his dps, while its ALOT more for warriors alone. Once you have just 1 warrior in a group, WF totem will add more dps for just that warrior than GoA would for the entire group probably.

Last edited by vorda : 09/10/07 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Living in the past.
#2365SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
He's wrong. His personal DPS is sure as hell not going to improve as much as *only* the warrior would gain from WF Totem, and definitely not as much as 2 rogues + Warrior with WF.
#2366SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
So what you are saying, Malan, is that Windfury is the right totem under the right circumstances, but not others?
#2367SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
vorda
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
So what you are saying, Malan, is that Windfury is the right totem under the right circumstances, but not others?
Did you read the first post?

Windfury vs GoA in a raid group?
Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group

Grace of Air should be considered for use only if the above are false, and under these conditions:
A feral druid tank is in the group (ie, bear... not kitty)
A prot warrior is in your group on a non threat limited fight with high damage components
Any combination of more than 2 hunter/druids is in the group

Last edited by vorda : 09/10/07 at 12:31 PM. Reason: typo
#2368SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Originally Posted by vorda
Cant back this up with math atm, but I'm fairly confident that this isnt true anymore post nerf. Iirc, the combat dagger spreadsheet already had a very small difference between GoA and WF (because combat dagger has less yellow hits than combat sword), now with rogue yellow hits not proccing WF at all, GoA should be very very close.

edit:


For him personally it obviously is, since WF totem does nothing for HIM. But you bring an enhance shaman to buff his group mainly, everything extra (personal dps) is less important.

As said, GoA is at best 4% of his dps, while its ALOT more for warriors alone. Once you have just 1 warrior in a group, WF totem will add more dps for just that warrior than GoA would for the entire group probably. (and this is ignoring the fact that for rogues, even with the upcomming nerf, WF will still be very good.)
What upcoming nerf? they're nerfing it again?
#2369SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Paradox
What upcoming nerf? they're nerfing it again?
Nvm, I was living in the past
#2370SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
OK, maybe it's 2 rogues, 1 shammie, warrior, and kitty.
The damage from WFT procs will easily beat out the DPS gained from another chunk of agility. If he doesn't drop WFT for that group, he isn't worth bringing over another DPS class.

Cant back this up with math atm, but I'm fairly confident that this isnt true anymore post nerf. Iirc, the combat dagger spreadsheet already had a very small difference between GoA and WF (because combat dagger has less yellow hits than combat sword), now with rogue yellow hits not proccing WF at all, GoA should be very very close.
Windfury is still better by the end of Kara, and the gap widens as gear improves. Poison damage is static; Windfury will do more damage as weapons improve and AP increases, and simply by virtue of having the enhancement shaman in the group, the Rogues will have 10% more AP.
#2371SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3hellraiser
Originally Posted by Malan
I think we've now asked that question twice per day, once per page for the last 10 days.
Well if i knew the anwser i wouldend of asked, i'm sorry the last 10 pages back i visit i see is full of calculations i cant seem to understand it hence i'm asking it the easy way
#2372SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Using Yo!'s sim and my stats: 2xSyphon > Syphon/RT > RT/Syphon but the difference is about 0.5-1% in DPS. I know it's not the answer for the viability of Dragonstrike.
#2373SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
Since the WF totem nerf rogues in my grp have been getting between 4.5-6.5% of thier total damage from WF (they are mace/sword rogues), never paid any attention to the warrior in grp but I'd guestimate 10%ish (MS spec). So 3x rogue + warrior = maybe 25% more dmg for them vs 3-4% personal gain from GoA.

Doesn't take a genius to see which is better.
#2374SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tambard
Hi, I'm currently using the Dragonstrike... I have all the mats for the Dragonmaw and 4 Vortexes (but only 1 mongoose)... Should I just wait to see if I get a Vortex tonight in SSC or upgrade now and slap a +20 STR on it?
#2375SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Sebudai
Your shaman also has the option of 'twisting' both Windfury and GoA and gaining the benefits of both of them!
#2401SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Leveret
Windfury Totem (Rank 5): Summons a Windfury Totem with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem enchants all party members main-hand weapons with wind, if they are within 20 yards. Each hit has a 20% chance of granting the attacker 1 extra attack with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 2 min.

Windfury Weapon (Rank 5): Imbue the Shaman's weapon with wind. Each hit has a 20% chance of dealing additional damage equal to two extra attacks with 445 extra attack power. Lasts 30 minutes.

Elemental Weapons (Rank 3): Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%.

Improved Weapon Totems (Rank 2): Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Windfury Totem by 30% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Totem by 12%.

According to the description, it seems Elemental Weapons is supposed to be adding 40% to the attack power bonus of Windfury Weapon, not to its damage. But it appears from all the calculations in this thread that Elemental Weapons is treated as a 40% bonus to Windfury damage, not a 40% bonus to the attack power bonus. I assume that this was shown through testing? In any case, if Elemental Weapons is indeed providing a 40% bonus to Windfury damage rather than 40% bonus to the attack power bonus, then Windfury Totem is actually providing more AP bonus after talents than Windfury Weapon. Or is it possible, since the description of Elemental Weapons is apparently inaccurate, that Improved Weapon Totems is also really providing a 30% bonus to Windfury Totem damage rather than a 30% to the attack power bonus?

Where it says"your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%," its referring to the damage, not ap, so he is right that it increases damage by 40%, as opposed to increasing the base AP of the proc. 40% of the damage (which means it scales with every single melee stat you have) is much, much better than 30% of 445 AP.

Ignoring the slight difference in AP, and ignoring the differences between white attacks (through windfury totem) and yellow ones (i.e., lower miss rate, glancing blows, etc), you'd have to lower your attack speed to almost 0.1 seconds to have a similar dps increase from windfury totem.
#2402SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator

Yo! is there any chance you'd consider using unbuffed values for stats and a tab to select wich buffs/pots to add?
#2403SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Tristan
Yo! is there any chance you'd consider using unbuffed values for stats and a tab to select wich buffs/pots to add?
This would be really nice to have.
#2404SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Are all of these commonly asked questions covered in the OP? It's much easier if we can just quickly reply with "read the OP".
No, not all of them. The Blacksmithing stuff is probably one of the most often asked questions (I'm not a smith so I usually just skip over those posts to be honest), and the 2nd most frequent is probably "hey my DPS sucks please look at my armory and tell me why."

If people have an idea of something to add, please post it here and I'll add it. Kindly provide a link to the original posts/discussion so that I can provide references though.

Edit - I've added in the AEP evaluation of the stats on the weapons from the previous page.

Last edited by Malan : 09/11/07 at 9:38 AM.
#2405SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by Diogo
Where it says"your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%," its referring to the damage, not ap, so he is right that it increases damage by 40%, as opposed to increasing the base AP of the proc. 40% of the damage (which means it scales with every single melee stat you have) is much, much better than 30% of 445 AP.

Ignoring the slight difference in AP, and ignoring the differences between white attacks (through windfury totem) and yellow ones (i.e., lower miss rate, glancing blows, etc), you'd have to lower your attack speed to almost 0.1 seconds to have a similar dps increase from windfury totem.
The description is definitely referring to the bonus attack power, not the damage. If it's referring to the damage, it would say something like this instead:
"Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, and increases the damage caused by your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%, and your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%."

However, it would appear that that description is incorrect.

It's curious, I found this bit in WoWWiki:

"Also in 2.01, Windfury received a huge buff by way of elemental weapons. Elemental weapons now adds a flat +40% damage to your two Windfury occurances, as opposed to +40% to the attack power bonus. This buff adds a flat +16% damage increase, furthering Windfury's effectiveness to add +56% additional melee DPS!"

So it looks like Elemental Weapons used to do what the tooltip says, but was later changed in a huge buff to it. But I checked the patch notes and can't find anything about this. And they never bothered to actually change the text of the talent. So I'm wondering if anyone here remembers when this change was made? And more importantly, if a similar buff was made at the same time to Improved Weapon Totems? Since Improved Weapon Totems and Elemental Weapons were providing similar buffs to Windfury bonus attack power initially, it may be possible that they were both buffed at the same time.
#2406SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Evilgrin
So I was searching the forums and I keep seeing people say that Toughness and Anticapation are worthless. In that case what should we be using. I am normally a solo shaman that joins PuGs and don't want to "gimp" myself. I know my gear is still low, but I am working towards my Kara/Arc keys now. If this is the wrong thread to ask about builds, then please point me in the right direction.
#2407SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yo! - what does the "Shocks + ST" value mean in the sim? And why does it have a text entry box?

@evilgrin - It just falls in line with the idea that you shouldn't be getting hit, and we aren't tanks. Those talents aren't really contributing to DPS or group buffs. You didn't take Imp Weapon Totems for instance, which would directly benefit the warriors you group with. I only take a few points in Anticipation just to fill my required number of points.

Hopefully some day blizzard will change Imp Lightning Shield to benefit ALL of the shaman Shields, and then we can shift points into that.
#2408SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Diogo
Where it says"your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%," its referring to the damage, not ap, so he is right that it increases damage by 40%, as opposed to increasing the base AP of the proc.
No. Not at all. There would be a colossal (I mean fucking huge) difference between your normal hits and your WF hits if this were the case.
#2409SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rhaal
I haven't been following up on replies for this thread for a while, and this might have been pointed out before, however I'll still say it :P

I have Dragonstrike as well as 2 x Syphon of the Nathrezim, and wondered what the best DPS setup would be, went unbuffed to Blasted Lands with a healer bot, and tested only with windfury, storm strike and whatever item procs.
Each test lasted for about 26-27 minutes of undisturbed DPS on the "immortal" mobs, result was:


Dragonstrike + Syphon
DPS : 1140.1

Normal :         56.0%   average hit : 563    max hit : 1246
Windfury :       34.1%   average hit : 954.3  max hit : 1995
Storm Strike :    9.2%
Siphon Essence :  0.7%

Total damage : 1.790.932

2 x Syphon
DPS : 1122.2

Normal :         54.9%   average hit : 586.6 max hit : 1327
Windfury :       34.7%   average hit : 983.2 max hit : 2123
Storm Strike :    9.5%
Siphon Essence :  0.9%

Total damage : 1.824.024
Observation : 2x syphon of the nathrezim procs does not seem to stack, the buff just gets renewed.


And if anyone is at all interested, my unbuffed stats are :

Attack power : 1586
Crit chance : 30.85%
Hit rating : 176 (resulting in a total of 20.16% crit, including talents)
Haste Rating : 37
Armor ignore : 0

item procs :
Ashtongue talisman of vision : 275 ap
Dragonspine Trophy : 325 haste rating
Dragonstrike : 212 haste rating
Syphon of the Nathrezim : 20 point lifedrain on hit
Mongoose enchant : 120 agi, 2% haste

Conclussion : For now Dragonstrike is better in mainhand than Syphon, however after the 2.2 haste nerf the scales should tip the other way.
#2410SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Rhaal do you think you could hop on the PTR and do the same test just for completeness?
#2411SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Leveret
It's curious, I found this bit in WoWWiki:

"Also in 2.01, Windfury received a huge buff by way of elemental weapons. Elemental weapons now adds a flat +40% damage to your two Windfury occurances, as opposed to +40% to the attack power bonus. This buff adds a flat +16% damage increase, furthering Windfury's effectiveness to add +56% additional melee DPS!"

Elemental Weapons has never increased AP, since implementation it always has increased the damage by windfury by 40%.

This was integrated shortly after the AP reduction of Windfury back in 1.10 or something, to counter the lower dps.

The tooltip was changed in 1.12 or something to actually cover this behaviour.
#2412SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Elemental Weapons has never increased AP, since implementation it always has increased the damage by windfury by 40%.

This was integrated shortly after the AP reduction of Windfury back in 1.10 or something, to counter the lower dps.

The tooltip was changed in 1.12 or something to actually cover this behaviour.
Do you know if the same applies to Improved Weapon Totems?
#2413SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3smokey
@Rhaal

Thx man ! This is exaclty what i needed, it helps much more than "read the freakin 97 pages"
#2414SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malevolencia
Originally Posted by Leveret
The description is definitely referring to the bonus attack power, not the damage. If it's referring to the damage, it would say something like this instead:
"Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, and increases the damage caused by your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%, and your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%."
The initial quote of the tooltip is incorrect. What it actually says is "Increases the damage caused by your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%".

And that's exactly what it does.
#2415SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Thargaull
Help with lv 70 enhancement

Hi,

I'm new to this place and I wanted to ask about what possible gear upgrades exist for an enhancement shaman given: The Armory

... I don't like raiding, I pvp off and on, and run heroics fairly regularly. I was wondering if one of the veterans might have an idea or two regarding gear/gem selection and possible upgrades

Regards,
Thargaull

PS: I am planning to get the season 2 pvp one hand wpn (2.6 spd, 97 dps)
#2416SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Leveret
Originally Posted by Malevolencia
The initial quote of the tooltip is incorrect. What it actually says is "Increases the damage caused by your Rockbiter Weapon by 20%, your Windfury Weapon effect by 40% and increases the damage caused by your Flametongue Weapon and Frostbrand Weapon by 15%".

And that's exactly what it does.
It looks like they did change it at some point...but it wasn't even a good change, it now says "increases the damage caused by..." twice.

I still wonder if anyone tested to see what Improved Weapon Totems does? It seems that it is such an unpopular talent that nobody has done any testing on it.
#2417SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
I want to confirm what I believe everyone is on board with now - the 40% is of the whole hit.

If my Windfury was going to do 100 damage (after including an extra 445ap), it will now do 140. This is one of those things I confirmed doing all the damage tests when building my mod.
#2418SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Pawn has a new update just posted yesterday -

http://vgermods.com/Documents/Pawn-0.6-beta1.zip

Version 0.6 beta 1

* Weapon stats have been overhauled! Old scales will work, but now advanced users have a variety of new options for assigning values to weapons.
* New stats: MeleeMinDamage, MeleeMaxDamage, MeleeSpeed, MeleeDps, MainHandMinDamage, MainHandMaxDamage, MainHandSpeed, MainHandDps, OffHandMinDamage, OffHandMaxDamage, OffHandSpeed, OffHandDps, OneHandMinDamage, OneHandMaxDamage, OneHandSpeed, OneHandDps, TwoHandMinDamage, TwoHandMaxDamage, TwoHandSpeed, TwoHandDps, RangedMinDamage, RangedMaxDamage, RangedSpeed, RangedDps. Generally, you'll only use a few of these, and not give values to all of them.
* New stats: MinDamage, MaxDamage, Speed. If you don't care about which slot or weapon type it is, just use MinDamage, MaxDamage, Speed, and/or Dps. Dps is now calculated to full precision (say, 41.333 instead of 41.3) instead of rounded to one decimal place.
* Added support for weapon damage enchantments (Striking and Impact).
* Added support for ranged weapon scopes.
* Fixed a problem where certain items with suffixes would show unusually low unenchanted values (their stats would be read as 0). For example, Chimaerascale Legguards of the Bandit exhibited this problem.
* Added support for Black Morass instance-bound items (beacons).
Weapon support has been added, we can now examine things based on speed, min/max dmg. Anyone willing to take a stab as to how to value those?
#2419SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Krish
For Mac users out there that want to run the sim, it's pretty simple if you follow my instructions from P94. If you're still having trouble at that point, I suppose I could detail the instructions (though the readme included in Apple's download are pretty clear.

Yo, I see the changes you made to the overall frame's width and height, but the inner frame that seems to be defined for the tabs is still blocking the AEP values. Here's a screenshot, hope it helps. Thanks for your continued work on the sim.
Changed some sizes again...
Hope this works.

Originally Posted by Disquette
I want to confirm what I believe everyone is on board with now - the 40% is of the whole hit.

If my Windfury was going to do 100 damage (after including an extra 445ap), it will now do 140. This is one of those things I confirmed doing all the damage tests when building my mod.
I am with it.

Originally Posted by Tristan
Yo! is there any chance you'd consider using unbuffed values for stats and a tab to select wich buffs/pots to add?
This is on my what-to-do list.
I was going to model trinkets - something that is fun from my pov, but will add buff tab before as it will benefit usability.

Originally Posted by Malan
Yo! - what does the "Shocks + ST" value mean in the sim? And why does it have a text entry box?
That is your DPS that comes from shocking and fire totems (ST = searing totem).
It is not modelled in sim that's why you have an option to input it directly.
It is gear-independent mostly as you don't have spell crit, +spell, spell hit, etc. so it should be the same for almost everyone depending only on how fast your reflexes are in shocking and renewing ST.

Originally Posted by Bain
I'm sorry to bring this up again, but the previous few posts have me confused again.

With those changing AEP values, doesn't it really suggests that its more of a certain preference to particular stats over other stats? Ie, if in endgame gear, you hope to achieve a certain amount of haste in opposition to higher AP and Crit, then your Haste Rating will have a substantially higher AEP than your AP/Crit AEP.

But to achieve max dps, we're aiming for the best loot combination, and this loot combination will be the same everytime as stats on loot don't change (subject to Blizz actually changing it).

So shouldn't AEP values be a static value, and shouldn't we be aiming for the best loot that drops in each instance?
The fact that there is one best loot combination in WOW does not mean that local AEP values achieved with this combination are the best for you. What AEP values are showing is that "you have very low +haste - it is becooming of increased value for you" or "you can trade this much of +hit for that much of +ap". AEP values are not static. Now about the "best loot that drops in each instance". There is defintely some loot that falls into category - "go for it" (an example - Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft and your local AEP will score it the same way but even without knowing AEP value of that loot you know that it is an upgrade. But how about the choice between say Surestrike Goggles v2.0 - Items - World of Warcraft and Cataclysm Helm - Items - World of Warcraft? Sebudai will do better with first while Tsalrioth will do better with second. If Tsalrioth would use Sebudai's AEP values he will do wrong choice resulting in few dps loss that could possibly push his DPS just bellow Sebudais that can make their guild leader choose Sebudai for the next raid (if they were in the same guild and only one vacancy). If both of them use "average" and not local AEP values they both risk to not choose the best gear that is available for them while they still will of course choose such upgrades like Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft. This being said do not rely on local AEP values entirely when comparing very close items - you better use sim.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/11/07 at 2:50 PM.
#2420SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
I was also curious about the input for Shocks/Searing Totem.

I assumed it was for choosing not to shock/totem incase you were twisting WF/GoA and didn't have the mana to shock.

Anyone have an idea of what the general average DPS you would normally see from those two?
#2421SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rhaal
Originally Posted by Malan
Rhaal do you think you could hop on the PTR and do the same test just for completeness?
I'm not sure if i'll have time for it, if I do, I'll make sure to post it here at least
#2422SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nazgull
dunno what to use

hello guys
well with the upcoming haste nerf i dont know what to use :
true-aimed stalker bands with 8 hit gem
or
binding of lightning reflexes

0.22% crit and 8 hit vs 6 ap and 2.57% haste

well with the nerf i still think haste is good source of dps
but i gotta ask to be sure
#2423SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
You should probably be more concerned with finding the missing period and shift key from your keyboard.
I'm also guessing that this is you? The Armory
Which means your profile could probably use an update too.

After that, I'd suggest you check the first post in this thread which clearly outlines how you can value those items all on your own, either in or out of the game.

Edit - I'm not trying to be a dick (well maybe a little) but its gotten stupid silly how many posts are cropping up lately that could be easily answered based on all the information in the first post - its why we compiled all this stuff in the first place.

Last edited by Malan : 09/11/07 at 4:58 PM.
#2424SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Windfury totem is included in the sim.
Suprisingly - there is the point of haste where it is better than WF imbue that may be achieved but not upkeeped constantly - you need 300% haste from haste rating and bloodlust combined. However Rockbiter seems to outperform WF totem with almost any wepon.
#2425SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bain
Originally Posted by Yo!
The fact that there is one best loot combination in WOW does not mean that local AEP values achieved with this combination are the best for you. What AEP values are showing is that "you have very low +haste - it is becooming of increased value for you" or "you can trade this much of +hit for that much of +ap". AEP values are not static. Now about the "best loot that drops in each instance". There is defintely some loot that falls into category - "go for it" (an example - Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft and your local AEP will score it the same way but even without knowing AEP value of that loot you know that it is an upgrade. But how about the choice between say Surestrike Goggles v2.0 - Items - World of Warcraft and Cataclysm Helm - Items - World of Warcraft? Sebudai will do better with first while Tsalrioth will do better with second. If Tsalrioth would use Sebudai's AEP values he will do wrong choice resulting in few dps loss that could possibly push his DPS just bellow Sebudais that can make their guild leader choose Sebudai for the next raid (if they were in the same guild and only one vacancy). If both of them use "average" and not local AEP values they both risk to not choose the best gear that is available for them while they still will of course choose such upgrades like Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft. This being said do not rely on local AEP values entirely when comparing very close items - you better use sim.

Thank you profusely! I've been having a few tough gear choice decisions of late, and this explanation made it crystal clear!

Thanks once again, and thank you everyone for your hard work! Keep it up!
#2426SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bain
Originally Posted by Yo!
The fact that there is one best loot combination in WOW does not mean that local AEP values achieved with this combination are the best for you. What AEP values are showing is that "you have very low +haste - it is becooming of increased value for you" or "you can trade this much of +hit for that much of +ap". AEP values are not static. Now about the "best loot that drops in each instance". There is defintely some loot that falls into category - "go for it" (an example - Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft and your local AEP will score it the same way but even without knowing AEP value of that loot you know that it is an upgrade. But how about the choice between say Surestrike Goggles v2.0 - Items - World of Warcraft and Cataclysm Helm - Items - World of Warcraft? Sebudai will do better with first while Tsalrioth will do better with second. If Tsalrioth would use Sebudai's AEP values he will do wrong choice resulting in few dps loss that could possibly push his DPS just bellow Sebudais that can make their guild leader choose Sebudai for the next raid (if they were in the same guild and only one vacancy). If both of them use "average" and not local AEP values they both risk to not choose the best gear that is available for them while they still will of course choose such upgrades like Cursed Vision of Sargeras - Items - World of Warcraft. This being said do not rely on local AEP values entirely when comparing very close items - you better use sim.

Thank you profusely! I've been having a few tough gear choice decisions of late, and this explanation made it crystal clear!

Thanks once again, and thank you everyone for your hard work! Keep it up!
#2427SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Yo!, thanks for your work -- it looks like your sim is quickly becoming the best tool around for gear selection. Anyway, I noticed that in the changelog you have added WFT/Rockbiter/Mongoose/Crusader but these options aren't yet selectable from the "Procs & Stuff" menus.
#2428SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
They're fully selectable for me Rob.
#2429SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob
Yo!, thanks for your work -- it looks like your sim is quickly becoming the best tool around for gear selection. Anyway, I noticed that in the changelog you have added WFT/Rockbiter/Mongoose/Crusader but these options aren't yet selectable from the "Procs & Stuff" menus.
Hit refresh button in the browser. If it is not helping - delete applet from cash. It is called JavaLibrary1.jar

Originally Posted by Malan
They're fully selectable for me Rob.
How about AEP values - are they properly shown now on Mac?
#2430SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Yah everything is displayed fine for me in the sim after the last couple of fixes you made.
#2431SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krish
Yo,

I can now actually see the AEP values, which is much appreciated. Thanks so much for making the changes for us mac folks. One small remaining improvement would be if the text boxes for input and also AEP results were about 1 character width wider. As it stands right now, I have to place the cursor in the boxes and arrow left and right to see the whole value.

On another related note, I am seeing DPS numbers that are about 300 short of actual raid performance results in WWS. Is this due to buffs like drums of battle, bloodlust, etc? Am I underestimating my raid buffed numbers? I've left crit/hit at their unbuffed values and put in AP at 2600 instead of my unbuffed 1560. If anyone could shed some light on how to optimize this approximation, I would be most grateful.

Thanks,

Kresh
#2432SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Fermenator
Spec help.

This is my first post on Elitist jerks, however in the past I have often come here for help regarding the math and mechanics of my classes.

before I ask my question, let me point out that I have just recently begun playing this enhancement Shaman. I am comfortable with the obvious math and mechanics, it is the selection of finer points that I am more concerned with. I desire to maximize the character to the best of my ability, because that is the goal of raiding is it not?

I realize the important of hit rating, especially in the dual wielding sense. I am also aware of an enhancement shamans raid survivability being somewhat hindered and sticky at times.

Without further delay, my question is simple.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


My question is the following. Would Spec 1 not clearly out DPS spec 2, however be less raid friendly? Can the hit gained from Nature's guidance, not be overcome by gear and the 9% to crit off of shock crits not be more desireable. I am also aware of the shamans Threat problem, however if the shocks cost less, would you not then have that mana recycled to drop tranquil air totem for additional threat reduction?(assuming you were dropping windfury)
#2433SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Krish
Yo,

I can now actually see the AEP values, which is much appreciated. Thanks so much for making the changes for us mac folks. One small remaining improvement would be if the text boxes for input and also AEP results were about 1 character width wider. As it stands right now, I have to place the cursor in the boxes and arrow left and right to see the whole value.

On another related note, I am seeing DPS numbers that are about 300 short of actual raid performance results in WWS. Is this due to buffs like drums of battle, bloodlust, etc? Am I underestimating my raid buffed numbers? I've left crit/hit at their unbuffed values and put in AP at 2600 instead of my unbuffed 1560. If anyone could shed some light on how to optimize this approximation, I would be most grateful.

Thanks,

Kresh
Obviously enter your buffed values:

2600 ap is a bit on the low end for 1560 AP, you can usually add 1200 AP (flasked)
hit is fine, just make sure you actualy add the 9% +hit from talents.
You can also easily add 9% crit if you have a feral and goa.

Again, the easiest way is simply to look at your stats while buffed
#2434SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Change the Crit rates to your buffed values.

I see values that very close to my raid DPS.
#2435SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Fermenator
This is my first post on Elitist jerks, however in the past I have often come here for help regarding the math and mechanics of my classes.

before I ask my question, let me point out that I have just recently begun playing this enhancement Shaman. I am comfortable with the obvious math and mechanics, it is the selection of finer points that I am more concerned with. I desire to maximize the character to the best of my ability, because that is the goal of raiding is it not?

I realize the important of hit rating, especially in the dual wielding sense. I am also aware of an enhancement shamans raid survivability being somewhat hindered and sticky at times.

Without further delay, my question is simple.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft


My question is the following. Would Spec 1 not clearly out DPS spec 2, however be less raid friendly? Can the hit gained from Nature's guidance, not be overcome by gear and the 9% to crit off of shock crits not be more desireable. I am also aware of the shamans Threat problem, however if the shocks cost less, would you not then have that mana recycled to drop tranquil air totem for additional threat reduction?(assuming you were dropping windfury)
What's your spellcrit rate? I'm lucky to see more than 2-3 crits per fight on my shocks (granted I just keep flameshock up unless the mob is <5% and my mana is >20%). So, you're looking at ~6% spell crit raid buffed? So on a 10 minute fight and by some miracle you get a shock off every cd you get 120 shocks, 6% crit -> 7 crits. Go for another miracle and say that your crits are perfect and you regain Devastation as it fades; you have 70 sec uptime in 6000 seconds, grats on 11.6% uptime, or 1.044% crit. Going on main page aep #'s you are at 44.2 with Devastation and 66.36 + whatever 3% spellhit = with Nature's Guidance.

Going to negate the mana reduction from Convection because Mental Quickness is all spells, so now you gain 5% shock damage; 39.85 for flame and 33.75 for earth = 7.97 dps for flame and 6.75 dps for earth in the perfect world where you get 12 shocks per minute. Also, you are not even going to be saving mana with that build because you're throwing around an extra 2 shocks (perfect world) at ~460 mana a pop or an additional 76.6 mp/5.

You're looking at 1.044% crit(not realistic), 7.97(see previous) dps, and a 920 mana per minute extra mana sink(see previous previous) vs. 6% mana reduction to all instants(gets better the more you cast), reduced totem cost(I'd call this a necessity, honestly don't know why anyone wouldn't have it for air totems at this point), 3% melee/spell hit, and another 10 yards to totem range.

Last edited by rava : 09/12/07 at 6:21 AM. Reason: natures guidance + late night math
#2436SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Patrix
Hi, I wrote my own simulator, you can download it here.

Any help/suggestion/bugreport will be appreciated.
#2437SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Could you give us some more info on it? ie, language written in, any requirements for use, what makes yours different/unique?

Edit - if that's just the binary in that zip than you really need to provide the source as well, otherwise nobody is going to want to run it.

Last edited by Malan : 09/12/07 at 10:23 AM.
#2438SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Personally I'm not comfortable with downloading exe files from users with 1 post that I know nothing about.

How does it compare to the other sims listed on the front page. Considering the testing those have gone through coming close to them feels like a good start.
#2439SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Can a few other people do some testing on Yo's simulator with various gear and values of -Armor and see if you get an AEP value of around 0.25 per point of -Armor?

I've profiled several shaman into Yo's sim and get values for -Armor between 0.25 and 0.27 for pretty much any combo of stats and -Armor value, as well as varying the amount of armor on the boss. If we can confirm that, I'll add that into our "agreed" AEP values.

@Yo! - any way to add some sort of alert as to when the sim is complete? Sometimes the values don't change and the only way to determine if its done is whether or not the Theorycraft! button is stuck down or not. Adding in a drop down for some common weapons would be another huge plus.

Last edited by Malan : 09/12/07 at 10:57 AM.
#2440SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Patrix
I wrote it in Visual Basic 6. The requirement is Windows XP or maybe a Windows emulator. Early Windows versions may need additional VB DLLs, didn't checked yet.

You can test it for virus/trojans, but I think the size is too small for today's average trojan. :P

About the differences, maybe is the most complete, but I only checked 2 or 3 of the current sims listed here. I try to simulate an entire melee fight with combat log and I put several modificators for items, tier bonus, future mechanics like 30% ap to spelldamage or haste nerf.

You can choose your weapons over a mini database and do simple test, try the AEP calc function or a bench with a mini table of results. Too many things to explain with my low english level, just check this screenshot to get an idea.

I tried to be the most precise possible with the info obtained here and wowwiki and my currently major issue is the flurry mechanic, I can't find a detailed description with all the exceptions and rules so I coded a simple 3 hit flurry mechanic meanwhile.

You can check the combat log on screen or dump to a file for a better read, i hope this will help finding bugs.
#2441SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Looks pretty complete, too bad I'll probably not have a chance to use it. Mac/Linux user.
#2442SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
The set bonuses aspect is nice, as is the AP to spell damage, as are all the options for selection and parameters (attack table and target stats!), and the switch weapons button.

Any chance of seeing the source code of the damage calculations? Every time someone has shown their source code, we've found bugs in it, ranging from trivial to sim breaking.

The "dump to combat log" check box is also very nice.

I'd also be very interested in seeing how well your dps values match up, given the same paramaters, to Yo!'s and Tornhoof's. Maybe the three of you could match up a set of gear to test.

And... and this has been my issue for months now, are all of you willing to take "the real challenge"? In which I give you my stats, my actual crit rate, my actual glance rate, hit rate, a mob's armor mitigation, and avoidance, and calculate what my dps should be? If that matches up to the run's actual values for a few different tests, I'll be pleased.

The only notes about the test setup are:
I have mongoose on one weapon
I have dragonstrike
I use Hourglass of the unraveller
I use (but won't activate, so it shouldn't matter) bloodlust brooch
I won't use heroism for the test
I do know exact armor values and parry/block/dodge rates
I will stromstrike when it's cooldown is up
I will NOT earthshock (unless you tell me that's good to go too)
I will NOT totem twist like I usually do in a raid environment

Let me know who thinks their sim is ready for it ;-)
#2443SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I was trying to work out what my theoretical maximum AP was, and i'm struggling to get the correct number from what I recall seeing on my character screen recently.

1702 AP with food
120 Flask
70 4 Piece T6
275 Ashtongue
194 SoE
340 Tsunami
450 Battle Shout?

Equals 3151 + UR 3466

I'm almost certain I saw 39xx the other day, I think I may have SS'ed it.

have I missed something?
#2444SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Blessing of Might and Kings
#2445SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Kings/Might/MoTW? (assuming you are talking about raid situations since you added BS)

edit: malan beat me, but I took the trouble to calculate if his SoE AP was correct! (which it isnt, should be 197)
edit2: battleshout should be 381
#2446SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
With [Solarian's Sapphire] it's 450.
#2447SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I was trying to work out what my theoretical maximum AP was, and i'm struggling to get the correct number from what I recall seeing on my character screen recently.

1702 AP with food
120 Flask
70 4 Piece T6
275 Ashtongue
194 SoE
340 Tsunami
450 Battle Shout?

Equals 3151 + UR 3466

I'm almost certain I saw 39xx the other day, I think I may have SS'ed it.

have I missed something?
Blessing of Kings,
Blessing of Might,
Gift of the Wild

These buffs will increase your AP as well, not sure if you included them into your original math.

Additionally, how is t6 treating you? I've been trying to figure out whether or not the stat gain is more beneficial than the 5% haste bonus from 4 piece T5.
#2448SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Patrix
Originally Posted by Disquette
Any chance of seeing the source code of the damage calculations? Every time someone has shown their source code, we've found bugs in it, ranging from trivial to sim breaking.
Of course, the main 3 functions of damage calculation:

Function Hit(min As Long, max As Long, apower As Long, speed As Long) As Long
If URage > 0 Then
power = apower * 1.1
Else
power = apower
End If
Hit = ((min + (Rnd * (max - min)) + ((power / 14) * speed / 100)) * 1.1) * (1 - Mitigation / 100)
If StormStrikeHit Then Hit = Hit + SSDamageBonus 'T4 Bonus
End Function

Function WFMain(min As Long, max As Long, apower As Long, speed As Long) As Long
If URage > 0 Then
power = apower * 1.1
Else
power = apower
End If
DWeapon = min + (Rnd * (max - min))
DPower = (power / 14) * speed / 100
DWFPower = (WFBonusAP / 14) * speed / 100
WFMain = ((DWeapon + DPower + DWFPower) * 1.1 * 1.4) * (1 - Mitigation / 100)
End Function

Function WFOff(min As Long, max As Long, apower As Long, speed As Long) As Long
If URage > 0 Then
power = apower * 1.1
Else
power = apower
End If
DWeapon = (min + (Rnd * (max - min))) / 2
DPower = ((power / 14) * speed / 100) / 2
DWFPower = (WFBonusAP / 14) * speed / 100
WFOff = ((DWeapon + DPower + DWFPower) * 1.1 * 1.4) * (1 - Mitigation / 100)
End Function

Bug report will be appreciated.

The only notes about the test setup are:
I have mongoose on one weapon
I have dragonstrike
I use Hourglass of the unraveller
I see 2 main issues here.

First, our damage is toooooooo random, just check several results with 5 or 10 m. of fight.
Second, how this items PPM works? and the hidden cooldown? how you tested it?

I can code a moongose/Hourglass simulator with %X chance to proc on normal/crit attack with an Y hidden cooldown, np about that, but, do we know the exact proc mechanic and the X/Y values?

Let me know who thinks their sim is ready for it ;-)
If you can avoid to use PPM items, I think my sim is ready.
#2449SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Suazo
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
Blessing of Kings,
Blessing of Might,
Gift of the Wild

These buffs will increase your AP as well, not sure if you included them into your original math.

Additionally, how is t6 treating you? I've been trying to figure out whether or not the stat gain is more beneficial than the 5% haste bonus from 4 piece T5.
Couldn't you just convert 5% haste into haste rating and then use your own AEP to compare between the two, or is this haste added/multiplied differently than normal haste rating on account of it being tagged along with Flurry.
#2450SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Suazo
Couldn't you just convert 5% haste into haste rating and then use your own AEP to compare between the two, or is this haste added/multiplied differently than normal haste rating on account of it being tagged along with Flurry.
That's where I'm stuck. Additionally, since its is 5% "Haste" increase, I am not sure if this will be affected by the haste changes in 2.2
#2451SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Patrik
Originally Posted by Malan
Can a few other people do some testing on Yo's simulator with various gear and values of -Armor and see if you get an AEP value of around 0.25 per point of -Armor?
Actually it shows me values from 0.29 up to 0.36 per point, but it's because I'm trying different -armor items and I'm not using 4400 as boss armor value. I was trying to measure bosses armor with TargetArmor addon few days back and in showed values from 5000 (Gurtogg) to 2500 (Reliquary of Souls), with average value being around 3300-3500 (Illidan for example). These values are after Sunder Armor, CoR and Faerie fire. Of course that addon is not accurate, but I've tried it with few friends in duels and it seemed not to differ for more than 15% from actual values.

Originally Posted by Stigmata
have I missed something?
I believe WF procs also show on your Character pane for a split second? If the difference is around ap bonus of WF, then it might have been that too.
#2476SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Anywho, still waiting on a response to my earlier question. On KT what would best weapon to use be?
#2477SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
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#2501SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by dzer
btw stigmata, uhave 34% crit with a feraldruid/kings/motw or am i seeing something wrong, thats terrible :p
I think I had only just got (30 minutes before) the helm and was playing around with the 4 Piece, so I was missing 5 crit rating and 12 agi, but other than that that about normal I guess.

I've got 30.36% on armory with motw/kings.

I dont recall seeing many people with higher than ~30% unbuffed crit?
#2502SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Malan
@Tristan - what's Enhancer? No wowace.com/wiki entry for it.

Yah I'd like to return to this, I'm wondering if anyone has ideas on how to weight weapon stats, or if its even needed.
It's the successor of ShammySpy wich started out as a Totem Timer. I wanted timers that I could put in the midst of my screen that wouldn't interfere with the mouse (simply be click-through).

After reading this thread and getting a few requests from friends etc playing shamans it became a little more and included things like AEP, Reincarnation, Windfury cooldown tracker, Earth Shield tracker, Healing Way tracker etc.

I had wowace-wiki entries for most of my stuff but during the accident a while back most of it was lost. I've not yet put one up for Enhancer as I'm not 100% finished with everything.

As for your other request, I tried in an early version to include weighting of weapon speed aswell as min/max damage wich turned out poorly just skewing the totals and gave up.

Recently I've been thinking about min/max again though and decided as my next thing to assign a value to the difference in min/max damage. Assigning a small value that adds a little or removes a little based on max damage I think will be better then my other experiment.
#2503SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
This is pretty counter-intuitive Yo!, can you not have it calculate the +10% stats after accounting for the other buffs? Would also request that you add the +AP food to the Buffs.
Sim calculates all buffs from buffs tab with added 10% if BoK is on but it does not calculate 10% bonus to str and agi from gear as I have no input for str and agi. So, the one way is ask pally for BoK and write down your stats and than select additional buffs from buffs tab or write down your stats while raiding and input them directly and disselect buffs except for BoK that has to be on if you have it on. Yes, sounds complicated.

Edit:
To simplify - if you are expecting BoK - turn it on and proceed filling other stats and buffs as usual.
#2504SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Edit - bah nvm I see what you mean now by not having a Str/Agi input.

I think the *absolute best* thing to do here (to simplify for the user, not really going to simplify it on your end unfortunately) is just to get the Armory import functional and just read all the values straight from there.
#2505SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Yo!
To simplify - if you are expecting BoK - turn it on and proceed filling other stats and buffs as usual.
Anyway we can come around it? like entering Strength/Agility aswell into the form?
#2506SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm not really understanding that - in order to apply buffs and BoK your sim simply needs follow the logic of:
// fetch inputs from the Tracking Screen
// If buffs were checked, add buffs to the stat values
// if BoK Checked, add a 1.10 scalar to the stat values
The problem is if you enter your AP you are including AP from Str aswell as from Attack Power bonuses multiplying the total with 1.10 won't be correct as only the AP from strength will increase. Same ofc with Agi/Crit.
#2507SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Yah I realized a moment after that we didn't have Strength as an input.
#2508SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Yo: Really nice work, thanks for all the stuff we requested!
-Can I ask an other buff: [Elixir of Major Agility]? It could be a "radio button" for either flask or this one.
-What about 2 more input fields near the kings buff switch for agility and strength?
-I don't really agree with the armory import unless you can fully import the buffs that my character had when logged out. I mean I can have differend AP for example with full buffs than with no buffs at all.

About the [Madness of the Betrayer]:
We can use an average AEP for the proc (0.25 for each armor penetration point). The trinket has a 40% uptime as I remember so the proc would be 0.25 x 300 x 0.4 = 30 AEP.
The value of the trinket should be 112 + 30 = 142 AEP for an average user.
#2509SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by dzer
i've been pondering a bit bout what to wear in pve

im using 3x t6 with illidan head+archi chest and was considering switchin the chest with t6 for the bonus

it'd basically be 19crit 14hit 14AP vs t6 70ap proc... cant really make up my mind.
someone got math behind that?

btw stigmata, uhave 34% crit with a feraldruid/kings/motw or am i seeing something wrong, thats terrible :p
Read the first post. But, damnit, I had a great night last night so you get an answer from me.

19 crit =2*19=38
14 hit =1.4*14=19.6
14 ap =14
total = 71.6 aep

T6: 70ap =70aep

(This is just from the numbers you gave me. Excluding everything else.)
#2510SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Tristan - thanks so much for enhancer. I'm having some trouble understanding the command syntax though. I read through the help menus in game, but a readme.txt would be super if you have an old copy lying around. Pretty much, what I'd really like to do is take Yo!'s output string, and import it into enhancer.

What is the specific syntax for doing so, and which of the lines in blue text on the tooltip reflects this? I'm sorry for being a dolt, but I feel a bit better now that I know why I haven't found the documentation yet.
#2511SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Shabadu
I started using enhancer a couple weeks ago. I absolutely love the internal WF cooldown button, I stick it right next to my action bar and it helps having it near my SS to know when to hold off the extra second. The gear comparison part is great.

My only problem is that it seems to be inaccurate on tremor pulses, and there didn't seem to be any support for just a plain ole totem timer as it didn't cover my fire totems. If I had the option to time all totems in a simple 4 button row and add a little pulse cooldown in the middle, I'd get rid of gotwood completely. I'd roll the WFtotem mod into it too, since I use that to time twisting.

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/13/07 at 11:58 AM.
#2512SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
* I have the math showing the new WF as still good for rogues, lacking such evidence for Warriors.
Well, Warriors have a mediocre Crit:AGI ratio, gain 0 AP from AGI, and WF strikes grant extra rage. So if WF is better than GoA for Rogues, it is safe to assume that WF is better than GoA for Warriors.

That said, math quantifying the exact percent difference would be nice so we could answer questions like "I've got two rogues, a feral druid, a hunter, and me, what's better to drop?"
#2513SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3falonub
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I think I had only just got (30 minutes before) the helm and was playing around with the 4 Piece, so I was missing 5 crit rating and 12 agi, but other than that that about normal I guess.

I've got 30.36% on armory with motw/kings.

I dont recall seeing many people with higher than ~30% unbuffed crit?

I think it was you, I was admiring your crit but did you drop some recently? I seem to remember you having more. I have 30.08% unbuffed now. I had 31.something% but then dropped I believe 2 of the +8crit gems I had for +4str/+4crit as I figured I could shoot for 30% unbuffed then focus on AP and keep my hit reasonable. I'm half way through revered with the Ashtongue Deathsworn, so I have a side question: Would you guys replace Hourglass of the Unraveller or Bloodlust Brooch for the Ashtongue trinket? I lost the Tsunami to a hunter that quit about 5 days after(and we've stopped doing SSC) and I never got a DST to drop. So for my end game trinkets I've been thinking about Madness of the Betrayer and Ashtongue trinket, but for now which of my two current would you guys replace, what are your thoughts?
#2514SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Tarnop
Originally Posted by Yo!
Sim calculates all buffs from buffs tab with added 10% if BoK is on but it does not calculate 10% bonus to str and agi from gear as I have no input for str and agi. So, the one way is ask pally for BoK and write down your stats and than select additional buffs from buffs tab or write down your stats while raiding and input them directly and disselect buffs except for BoK that has to be on if you have it on. Yes, sounds complicated.

Edit:
To simplify - if you are expecting BoK - turn it on and proceed filling other stats and buffs as usual.
Alternatively, you could add inputs for Agility and Strength, then work out their contribution to the input AP and crit. Then, if BoK is selected, increase that contribution by 10%.

So the AP formula with BoK active would be: Input_AP + (2 * Str * 0.1) + contribution from other buffs

and crit would be: Input_Crit + (1/25 * Agi * 0.1) + contribution from other buffs

I realise this seems like making the user input duplicate data, but it keeps the rules for stat input a lot simpler.
#2515SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by falonub
I think it was you, I was admiring your crit but did you drop some recently? I seem to remember you having more. I have 30.08% unbuffed now. I had 31.something% but then dropped I believe 2 of the +8crit gems I had for +4str/+4crit as I figured I could shoot for 30% unbuffed then focus on AP and keep my hit reasonable. I'm half way through revered with the Ashtongue Deathsworn, so I have a side question: Would you guys replace Hourglass of the Unraveller or Bloodlust Brooch for the Ashtongue trinket? I lost the Tsunami to a hunter that quit about 5 days after(and we've stopped doing SSC) and I never got a DST to drop. So for my end game trinkets I've been thinking about Madness of the Betrayer and Ashtongue trinket, but for now which of my two current would you guys replace, what are your thoughts?
I dropped Hourglass for Ashtongue. Right now I either use Bloodlust/Ashtongue or Prism/Ashtongue. Prism has been invaluable for me, many fights I'm pretty harshly threat capped for one reason or another.
#2516SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Shab, since you've been using the Prism extensively, I had previously done some envelope calculations when its value was tweaked and estimated it as a 10% threat reduction for anyone sitting at around 30% crit. Do you find this to be reasonably true?

@Rob - I agree, but you know how it is, people will want to know the *exact* theorized gain for each class for each totem.
#2517SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by falonub
I think it was you, I was admiring your crit but did you drop some recently? I seem to remember you having more. I have 30.08% unbuffed now. I had 31.something% but then dropped I believe 2 of the +8crit gems I had for +4str/+4crit as I figured I could shoot for 30% unbuffed then focus on AP and keep my hit reasonable. I'm half way through revered with the Ashtongue Deathsworn, so I have a side question: Would you guys replace Hourglass of the Unraveller or Bloodlust Brooch for the Ashtongue trinket? I lost the Tsunami to a hunter that quit about 5 days after(and we've stopped doing SSC) and I never got a DST to drop. So for my end game trinkets I've been thinking about Madness of the Betrayer and Ashtongue trinket, but for now which of my two current would you guys replace, what are your thoughts?
Forest Prowler's Helm for T6.

I'd drop hourglass over BB personally.

And endgame trinkets will be ashtongue and madness if we ever get a madness drop.
#2518SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
Shab, since you've been using the Prism extensively, I had previously done some envelope calculations when its value was tweaked and estimated it as a 10% threat reduction for anyone sitting at around 30% crit. Do you find this to be reasonably true?

@Rob - I agree, but you know how it is, people will want to know the *exact* theorized gain for each class for each totem.
I'll have to try out the fights I've been using it on without it. I definitely feel a 10% difference on Naj'entus vs when I don't use it though. I've never NOT used it on gurtogg or council though, so I'll have to give it a try. I ride the threat cap on those with the prism as it is, so it'd be a pain.
#2519SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tristan
Originally Posted by Disquette
Tristan - thanks so much for enhancer. I'm having some trouble understanding the command syntax though. I read through the help menus in game, but a readme.txt would be super if you have an old copy lying around. Pretty much, what I'd really like to do is take Yo!'s output string, and import it into enhancer.

What is the specific syntax for doing so, and which of the lines in blue text on the tooltip reflects this? I'm sorry for being a dolt, but I feel a bit better now that I know why I haven't found the documentation yet.
Your best bet would be to get DeuceCommander or the Waterfall-1.0 library from wowace which will provide you with a GUI instead of slashcommands making it immensly saner to toy with settings

The specific command to import a string would however be: /enh EPNumbers AEP CrazyShamanImport AP:10;STR:20;AGI:18;STA:0;CR:20;HR:14;HsR:15;RS:0;IA:10 if you are using a Revision prior to 48834 you'll have to remove the last semi-colon from the string created at Yo!'s simulator or you'll get an error. Last uploaded version on wowace has a check for it and will remove it automatically.

If you allready have Waterfall-1.0 present (from another addon for example) you can type: /enh Waterfall to open a waterfall GUI, personally I prefer DeuceCommander as it presents the menu in the order it was supposed to be but taste differs.

Unfortunatly I have no readme.txt neither (once I completed my current pieces I'll prio the wiki entry though) but here's a screenshot of Equivalence Points:

AttackpowerEP (inc BoK) would be the string that will change after an import from Crazy Shaman's DPS Calculator.

Last edited by Tristan : 09/13/07 at 1:25 PM.
#2520SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Requesting a math check here since I screw this stuff up so often.
[Madness of the Betrayer]
Wowhead comments state a 1.5 ppm on Servants, 2.0-2.5 ppm in a raid environment using instants.
From the Uptime thread, calculating the passive value of the proc, assuming a 2.0 ppm and using -Armor as a 0.25 AEP value, should be done as:
2ppm * 10/60 = 0.3333 uptime * 300ArmorPenetration = 100 * 0.25AEP = 25 AEP for the proc.
If that's correct, then the trinket has a net AEP of 135. Still slightly below the Tsunami Talisman.

Did I do that correctly?
(Disclaimer: I fail at math and have illustrated that many times before on this forum)
#2521SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Your math is correct, but I don't know that just doesn't look right to me. I'm stuck behind the mental barricade thinking it should be better than Tsunami since it's Illidan loot.
#2522SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I was surprised as well. Might be more accurate if a shaman did the ppm testing. If I use the 2.5 value that the wowhead comment indicated was the upper end that he observed, the value becomes 143 AEP, which would put it more on par with the Tsunami.

Then again, DST is still worth a lot even after the haste change and its from Gruul.
#2523SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Ugh, DST is very good at eluding me. It has never dropped for my guild. I've pretty much given up on it.

When you calculated the value for Tsunami what were you using as the base players crit percent?
#2524SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I believe Rob did the calculation on that and provided it to me, so I'm not certain.

That's actually one thing I really need to do for the Wiki article is to actually show all the calculations for these things. Anyone want to help break them down?
#2525SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Did Rob run the math on all the trinkets? Because I'm getting different values when I try, then again I'm still kind of new to this.

Edit:

For example, here's what I got for DST:

Assuming a 1.5 ppm,

1.5ppm * 10/60 = .25 uptime * (325 * 2.22) = 180.375 AEP from procc +40 AP = 220.375 AEP

Did I mess up somewhere?
#2526SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Malan does this wiki entry exist somewhere yet?
#2527SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
The Theorycraft Think Tank wiki exists, its just hidden from users at the moment. Boethius will open it up later this month hopefully. Its not going to be a traditional wiki, the whole project got started when I was complaining that this thread was a pain in the ass because the forums don't make the formatting of the article very user friendly. (Things like the table of contents, links to sub sections, etc) The idea was that we should have wiki articles that are owned by authors but have discussion threads attached to them, because the "open edit" method at wowwiki.com has led to rampant stupidity on the wiki entries with blatantly incorrect information.

I've been rewriting the enhance post here as a better article for it, its probably 75% done. Like I said though, one thing I want to do is expose the facts/theory of where we got all this data from, so I really need people to help cough up some calculations, links, graphics, etc to help out.
#2528SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Actually, it was somebody else who ran numbers on the trinkets, I don't remember who.

Math illustrating how these numbers would have been derived (unit analysis FTW):
* [Dragonspine Trophy] 202.5 AEP (2.1 haste value) assuming a 1.5 ppm, ~150 AEP (2.2 Haste value)

40 AEP + 325 Haste*1.48 AEP/Haste*10 Seconds*1.5 PPM/60 secs/min = 40 + 120.25 = 160.25 AEP (2.2 Value)

The added 20-second cooldown probably lowered the PPM of this item, so we would need to check out what a reasonable PPM figure is now. Additionally, the AEP of haste is very-poorly defined. This is probably the weakest number we have. Really, we want someone with DST to go on PTR and run Procwatch with WF imbue on both weapons, autoattacking+SS every 10s for 30m or so against a servant of razelikh. This could probably be accomplished with a keyboard macro (note that this may be against Blizzard TOS, like AFKing in AV with a keypresser).

* [Tsunami Talisman] 141 AEP assuming a 0.9 ppm

10 Hit * 1.4 AEP/hit + 38 Crit * 2.0 AEP/crit + 340 AP*10 sec*0.9 PPM/60 sec/min = 14 + 76 + 51 = 141 AEP

Last edited by Rob : 09/13/07 at 3:38 PM.
#2529SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Additionally, I did some math on other trinkets such as Abacus of Violent Odds (Sorry haven't learn how to insert item links.)

Due to the two minute cooldown, it can be assumed that this trinket can have a maximum of .5ppm.

2.1 Value:
.5ppm * 10/60 = .0833 * (2.22 * 260) = 48.08076 + 64 AP = ~112 AEP

2.2 Value:
.5ppm * 10/60 = .0833 * (1.48 * 260) = 32.05384 + 64 AP = ~96 AEP
#2530SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
That's not how you calculate On Use effects like that.

Example: Bloodlust Brooch
72AP + [278 (On Use AP) * 20 (duration)]/120 (cooldown) = 118.3

Abacus after the 2.2 haste value change would be
64 + [(260 * 1.4)*10]/120 = 94.3

Stuff with no hidden cooldown and not a proc is about the only thing I know how to calculate.
#2531SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob
Really, we want someone with DST to go on PTR and run Procwatch with WF imbue on both weapons, autoattacking+SS every 10s for 30m or so against a servant of razelikh. This could probably be accomplished with a keyboard macro (note that this may be against Blizzard TOS, like AFKing in AV with a keypresser).
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#2532SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Well, Malan, the way Shawndreya chose to show it is confusing, but that is the correct result.
(Your & my way: Abacus: 64 + 260*1.48*10/120 = 64 + 32 = 96 AEP)

Morelis: Thanks. That is perfect.
To spell out the math, based on your link:
DST = 40 + .2279 * 1.48 * 325 = 40 + 109.62 = ~150 AEP

And not to beat a dead horse, but we could use a more robust definition of haste's AEP.
#2533SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Even using your method I get the same results.

64AP + [(2.22 *260) * 10 (duration)]

[top]5772 /120 (cooldown)


112.1 AEP
#2534SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Sorry, didn't mean to make it confusing. I'm still new to this so I converted use effect into a PPM formula since that was the only formula I had to work with.

I'll make a mental note to clarify what each data entry represents in the future to help you understand what I'm saying.
#2535SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Oh mine must have been off from using 1.4 instead of 1.48 as the haste AEP.
#2536SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Took care of Kiss of the Spider:

28 + 14 + [(1.48 * 200) * 15]/120 = 79 AEP in 2.2
#2537SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
What do you still need data on? I have 1 ½ hours left till I get off work haha.
#2538SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Khlysti
Originally Posted by Malan
Requesting a math check here since I screw this stuff up so often.
[Madness of the Betrayer]
Wowhead comments state a 1.5 ppm on Servants, 2.0-2.5 ppm in a raid environment using instants.
From the Uptime thread, calculating the passive value of the proc, assuming a 2.0 ppm and using -Armor as a 0.25 AEP value, should be done as:
2ppm * 10/60 = 0.3333 uptime * 300ArmorPenetration = 100 * 0.25AEP = 25 AEP for the proc.
If that's correct, then the trinket has a net AEP of 135. Still slightly below the Tsunami Talisman.

Did I do that correctly?
(Disclaimer: I fail at math and have illustrated that many times before on this forum)

If you search the thread for madness you will see I did tests with it and posted weeks ago, the uptime is 40% not 33%.
#2539SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
I took care of Haste Potion AEP since I didn't see it in OP.

2.1
[(2.22 * 400) * 15]/120 = 111 AEP

2.2
[(1.48 * 400) * 15]/120 = 74 AEP
#2540SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
Took care of Haste Potion AEP since I didn't see it in OP.

2.1
[(2.22 * 400) * 15]/120 = 111 AEP

2.2
[(1.48 * 400) * 15]/20 = 74 AEP
Nice one, defenitly worth adding in the OP/Wiki imo!
#2541SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Two of my guildmates have [Madness of the Betrayer]. Both are really excited and happy with the trinket. They say it's refreshing 1-5 seconds after it expires. I talked them about the measured (?) 40% uptime and they said it's way more. Can anyone find a reference about the 40% uptime?
#2542SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
Originally Posted by Khlysti
And for a slightly more sensible bit, been doing some testing on Madness of the Betrayer. Uptime for me is at 40% Giving it an average of 120 armour penetration.

Using the numbers from my post on armour penetration this (for me) will on average be worth (120x0.364) = 43.68aep, add in the 20 hit and 84 ap and we get 156aep, even with lower armour targets this wont get much above 160aep.
Thanks, not sure how we missed that one.

So a 0.40 Uptime yields a ppm of about 2.4. [10/60 * ppm = 0.40]

2.4ppm * 10/60 = 0.40 uptime * 300ArmorPenetration = 100 * 0.25AEP = 30 AEP for the proc. 143.6 Total AEP when stats included.

That makes the Madness ever so slightly better than the Tsunami.

Last edited by Malan : 09/13/07 at 5:35 PM.
#2543SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Speaking of Wowwiki -- Malan, would you mind terribly if I slapped their ridiculous "Enhancement Equivalency" article with a clue stick and a link back to this thread?

It will certainly attract goons, but also help spread around this excellent resource.
#2544SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Guns
I was reading the previous post about the threat trinket from Lady Vashj and it got me thinking. I was in a lesser progressed guild for some time and often found myself threat capped, wishing I had that trinket, but for the past several months in my current guild, I have found that I have almost no issues with threat. I am wondering if my tank is just incredible at TPS or if it is possible that I am doing something wrong.

Since threat is such a small issue for me I really have stopped paying attention to the finer points of my threat meter... If I am remembering correctly I generated ~700 tps normally, and ~1000+ going "all out". That was a long time ago, and I have since obtained a 100 and 97 dps weapon (upgraded from Fool's Bane and the original Glad Mace) along with many significant other gear upgrades. I would imagine that my tps has gone up a bit since then as a result.

I just check in here and am reminded of the fact that we are considered a threat nightmare, but I can't recall very many situations in recent memory that I am truly threat capped. The last incident that I can think of is on Teron Gorefiend, I let the tank get about 20k threat and then began pushing the dps, and I was "riding" his threat for the rest of the fight. Most of the time, I let the tank get misdirected and get several swings in and don't have to worry about pulling threat.

Our mt uses the Brutilizer with a Battle Master enchant, which he raves about, saying it increases his tps significantly. He generates ~1100-1300 tps. I am wondering if this is an unusual situation. Is our tank great, am I falling short, is it both?

edit:
note: I am always BoSalved, but I never have to drop Tranquil Air.

Last edited by Guns : 09/13/07 at 5:54 PM.
#2545SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
I wouldn't link to here but carrying over a lot of the information might be valuable, and deleting any links to that awful "EEP". About the only thing it gets right is the ratio between STR and AP, and it's just incredibly outdated.

Edit: I just figured out how to mark it as an "outdated" article... I think I'll remove the EEP link from the main Shaman article.

Last edited by Rob : 09/13/07 at 6:00 PM.
#2546SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Your new tank is very good.

In my guild, tank choice is pretty much the deciding factor over my ability to pull out all my tricks and thus my overall DPS. Really it all comes down to their gear and play style. We have epic tanks who put out 800 tps and i have to switch to knife and shield about once every minute or so. We have others that exceed 1000 by a wide margin and I can go all out after a slight lead.

In Kara on Tuesday we experimented with a paladin tank (our really good druid tank was having internet issues). I have never seen TPS like this guy put out. Going all-out on Attumen, I was in second place with threat, well higher than the off-tank, with less than HALF the threat of the paladin (Man I wish WWS listed threat; this guy was amazing). Out-DPS'd our mage first-timer as well.

He did so good, I asked him to stop giving us Salv and give us Kings instead. But of course a paladin tank (especially one with very little mitigation and stamina gear) is murder on your healers, requiring in our case almost four times as much healing as a comparable warrior.

I've been told by good tanks that Battle Master is a decent enchant, but that Crusader is much better. Getting an enh. shaman in the tank's group for Windfury totems is also a decent boost.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/13/07 at 6:02 PM.
#2547SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I've implemented all the stuff discussed about trinkets here.
#2548SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Two of my guildmates have [Madness of the Betrayer]. Both are really excited and happy with the trinket. They say it's refreshing 1-5 seconds after it expires. I talked them about the measured (?) 40% uptime and they said it's way more. Can anyone find a reference about the 40% uptime?
Using it myself for three days of raiding now I have experienced a uptime of about 25-30%.
#2549SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
@Tornhoof, when you rip the armory page in WoWEquipOptimizer do you remove buffs manually (or add missing) etc that the player logged out with/without?

From what I can see on the armory page there is only two values being passed (based and effective):
<baseStats>
  <strength attack="528" base="103" block="13" effective="274"/>
  <agility armor="538" attack="-1" base="61" critHitPercent="12.43" effective="269"/>
</baseStats>

<melee>
  <power base="668" effective="1068" increasedDps="76.0"/>
</melee>
As I read it 103 is the strength base without additions from items/buffs and 528 is with items/buffs included. Otherwise wouldn't the program suggest very different when I logout with resp. without buffs?
#2550SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Ashtongue Talisman of Vision

Originally Posted by Malan
I've implemented all the stuff discussed about trinkets here.
[Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] info remains still wrong.

It does not have 89% uptime. You can do successful SS but no buff is applied.

It does exactly what tooltip says - 50% chance on hit to proc. So two times 50% chance per stormstrike since both weapons get a new roll. That gives 75% proc chance. Add to this dodge/parry on stormstrike, and it goes even lower.
#2551SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Empirical evidence from people that have the Talisman says otherwise. Stigmata and several others who have the trinket and have been using it for some time have all said that they have tracked between 85-89% proc rates.
Berg presented his reasoning on this here.

If you believe otherwise, and have the trinket, go perform the test that Berg suggested and use a 2H weapon to SS and track the proc rate.

@Tristan - I'm looking at my armor XML page and its saying my base strength is 107, not 103, and my base agility is lower. Where is the difference coming from?
<baseStats>
        <strength attack="776" base="107" block="19" effective="398"/>
        <agility armor="636" attack="-1" base="59" critHitPercent="14.39" effective="318"/

Last edited by Malan : 09/14/07 at 9:44 AM.
#2552SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3forge
Originally Posted by Malan
@Tristan - I'm looking at my armor XML page and its saying my base strength is 107, not 103, and my base agility is lower. Where is the difference coming from?
<baseStats>
        <strength attack="776" base="107" block="19" effective="398"/>
        <agility armor="636" attack="-1" base="59" critHitPercent="14.39" effective="318"/
I did a bit of grabbing of stuff and this is what i found out, purely from the armory which might be an armory bug or a real bug in the game. So this could be a nice idea to confirm from real game stats ?

Orc Shaman
base str 105
base agi 61
base sta 116
base int 105
base spi 123

Tauren Shaman
base str 107
base agi 59
base sta 116
base int 103
base spi 122

Troll Shaman
base str 103
base agi 66
base sta 115
base int 104
base spi 121

Draenei Shaman
base str 103
base agi 61
base sta 113
base int 109
base spi 122
#2553SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
#2576SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
AEP of Dragonspine has been updated for 2.2. ~150
#2577SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Yuma
Is it possible to add a changelog to the first page of the thread, or some sort of dating so that its easy to identify at a glance what's changed recently for those of us that prefer to just watch that page vs. the entire thread?
Hah.

We'll be switching over to the wiki soon to contain all this stuff and so yah, as long as I remember to enter what I changed before I hit the submit button, there will be a log.


@Rob - I updated the DST based off the discussion 2 pages back where we had a value of 146 AEP I believe, its already up on the OP.
#2578SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yuma
Originally Posted by vorda
It has been, alot of times. I suggest you use the search function.

edit: nice edit..
I try.
#2579SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Tristan
So you parse through all gear and download them pages (couldn't find any item info in the base page but I might be just stupid) for each item and then add them to the total?
Actually they are already saved and processed in the itemdb.xgz (gzipped xml) for distribution, but basically I've downloaded all the item-info.xml files and other related xml files for every item from id ~18000-33000 and parsed them to a database.

The only data I take from the character xml file is talent build, to decide which model to load and the individual item ids from the slots.
Sometimes in the future I hope I can parse the enchant ids too, they are not cross referenced anywhere.
#2580SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Ashtongue Talisman of Vision

Did more testing. Namely 100 stormstrikes with 2-handed weapon and then 100 stormstrikes with dualwield. Heres what I got:

2-handed:
Stormsrikes - 100
Parry - 2
Dodge - 3
-------------
SS hits - 95
Buffs gained - 69
---------
No buff hits - 26


DualWield
Stormstrikes - 100
Parry - 3
Dodge - 2
----
SS hits - 95
Buffs gained - 85
---
No-buff hits - 10


Buff uptime 85% with dw, 74% with 2-hander.
#2581SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Excellent, that seems to confirm the mechanic that Berg suggested.
#2582SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Cowstriker
I am new to the archimonde fight and have been worried about how to avoid being feared constantly in a doomfire.

Since enhance have no way to avoid fears beside trying to time the tremor totem wich is really uncertain (correct me if i am wrong). There is always that 3-4 seconds where you might run straight in a doomfire.

I have my pvp trinket every 2 minutes but between but there are many fears in the cooldown time.

(might not be a class mechanic post if so, just tell me i will erase that post)
#2583SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Not sure if it's fitting here, but... I'll answer anyway.

Archimonde's fear is on ~40 second timer. This is pretty accurate, my usual approach is to realize I'll take the first fear. Due to human reaction time, this means I will be feared for approx 1-2 seconds. This is convenient, just use your pvp trinket to break the fear and instantly put down tremor totem. Due to the mechanics of the totem, this means that you will have a pulse just after the next fear, since tremor pulses every 5 (he will fear again after 40 seconds, which means that you will break the fear with the 8th tick [his fear has a 1.5 seconds cast]).

By the time he will fear again, your totem will save you once more. Then for the next one, you have your trinket again.

This seems to work for me, maybe I'm bad at explaining it, but hey.
#2584SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
I was really going for this less hit more AP/crit business but when I see things like this: Wow Web Stats -> Stigmata - WWS

The Armory

I just don't know what to believe.
#2585SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• frmorrison
Originally Posted by Paradox
I just don't know what to believe.
That Armory shows he has nearly the best gear for each slot, and turns out he has quite a bit of hit rating on all that gear as well. Shaman without 5 weapon skill have a 28% chance to miss on DW white attacks.
#2586SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Notice how he never gems or actively looks for hit rating though.
#2587SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aett
Originally Posted by vorda
Notice how he never gems or actively looks for hit rating though.
And that really isn't much hit rating at all compared to what you can achieve at that gear level. Waaaay back, when the research on hit vs. crit wasn't conclusive, I hit capped myself with blues. The mana regen was nice, but my dps went up when I dropped about 100 hit rating.

Look at the top rogue, Melde, in the earlier WWS; he has 238 hit rating. Suddenly 181 doesn't seem like much
#2588SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tolsmir
Hey there guys!

I am new to the forums so I will try to not sound like too much of a noob. I have one question about raiding as enhancement; How much + hit rating do I really need to aim for?

I know its not valued very highly but at my current hit rating, I am seeing a lot of misses.

Thanks in advance for the help guys!
#2589SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
For the most part, hovering in the 80-120 range for hit rating until you get to t6+ gear is pretty common and acceptable.
#2590SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Is there an official thread for enhancer somewhere? I'd like to have some questions about the addon.
#2591SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Is there an official thread for enhancer somewhere? I'd like to have some questions about the addon.
This is the official thread for enhancement Shaman. Just don't expect an answer if you are not asking about formulas, calculators and simulators. ;)
#2592SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Beroll
This is the official thread for enhancement Shaman. Just don't expect an answer if you are not asking about formulas, calculators and simulators.
He's talking about the addon 'Enhancer'

I suggest you PM your questions to the developer.
#2593SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Sebudai
Tremor Totem pulses every 4 seconds, not every 5. Make sure you adjust your melee position based off of where the closest Doomfires are, and only use your pvp trinket if you're being feared directly in to one.
#2594SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Phabyum
Edit: Nvm :p
#2595SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yasuhiko
A new(b) challenger appears!

Well, I've been looking over your posts and have a few questions/things to point out.
First would be: yellow damage attacks don't gain the 5% crit strike from Thundering strikes or threat reduction from spirit weapons, correct? Therefore, it is safe to assume they do not get anything from Dual wield specialization. I need to perform some tests on this, but I'm no good at making tests. If someone would be willing to help out in this regard, it would be appreciated.

Also, we agree that there is a wide berth for hit rating with 9% talented, but what would you think is proper for those without guidance? Should we just aim for an extra 3% worth of hit rating? Should we just cap at 120 and live and let be? If anyone has info on this, it would be much appreciated.

----------------------------------------------------
And I'm new to proofs and the like, so my madness may be pure madness, but again, fi someone could work with it, maybe we can model the syphon.

Lastly, the Syphon should be relatively easy to model if you can find the PPM. It wouldn't add AEP, but DPS based on weapon speed, neh?
For example, if it had a 1.5 PPM rate, you would be getting an extra 20 damage per hit for 9 seconds of a minute. Assume you're equipping two and have the attack speed down to two seconds. For 3/10ths of a minute (1.5 PPM of 6 seconds *2, or 18 seconds/min), you're doing an extra 10 DPS per hand (20 bonus damage every 2 seconds). That's a net DPS gain of 3 DPS per hand at a 2 second attack speed (10DPS *3/10min). As you go faster, this DPS increases (exponentially?). At 1.5 second attacks, you make 13.33 DPS per hand, and at 1 second, you get 20 DPS per hand. Conversely (let's use common sense and not model 3 seconds), above 2 seconds, you take a hit, because you can only do 40 bonus damage per hand, and 40 damage over 6 seconds is 6.66 DPS. 6.66 DPS* 3/20ths of a min will give you 1 DPS average.


Put simply (in my addled mind): A syhpon is worth 1.5 DPS in each hand if you're between 1.5 and 2 seconds. Between 1.5 and 1, you get 2 DPS, and at 1 second, you get 3 DPS. However, at 2+ seconds, you're getting an average of 1 DPS.

Again, I apologize if that came out like gibberish. I'll try to work on it more.

Edit: fixed a couple discreancies (worked with two syphons at some points, 1 with others.)
#2596SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Etelmo
Originally Posted by Yasuhiko
First would be: yellow damage attacks don't gain the 5% crit strike from Thundering strikes or threat reduction from spirit weapons, correct? Therefore, it is safe to assume they do not get anything from Dual wield specialization. I need to perform some tests on this, but I'm no good at making tests. If someone would be willing to help out in this regard, it would be appreciated.
Originally Posted by Etelmo
You should be comparing the CritOnZeroDamage(for SWS) for both Windfury/Stormstrike/White damage, rather than CritOnHit. CritOnZeroDamage includes dodge/parry/miss, CritOnHit is just attacks that land.
(What it means is, since SS can't miss and white attacks do, the crit rate will seem inflated when compared to eachother... Depending on the damage meter used)
#2597SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
1) Yes, you want 9% hit at least - that does indeed take priority if you don't have it from talents.

2) We don't know that Thundering Strikes doesn't grant the crit bonus to yellow attacks. I'm currently of the thought that the observed discrepancy is an effect of the 2-roll system for yellow damage. Some day I or someone else could test this.

3) I'll leave the Syphon stuff to someone else, I'm so tired currently.
#2598SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette
2) We don't know that Thundering Strikes doesn't grant the crit bonus to yellow attacks. I'm currently of the thought that the observed discrepancy is an effect of the 2-roll system for yellow damage.
I agree.
#2599SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shawndreya
You've also got to count in the effect that the leeching effect of syphon is amplified by shadow weaving, misery, and curse of shadows. Unless you're in some magical realm where Syphons drop off mobs you farm for gold, you can assume these debuffs will be on a mob most of the time while you are raiding. Additionally some guilds, like my own, use two different ranks of CoS with malediction which causes it to stack.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 8:46 AM.
#2600SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
I wanted to start by thanking everyone for contributing to such an active enhancement shaman community. The sims and discussions are fantastic.

So I've been lurking for a while now and I am trying to bring myself up to respectable and am just not satisfied. I realize I have some gear upgrades to go, but I am noticing just wide variance in my performance from fight to fight. Is that just the nature of enhancement?

My main concern is that my Crit rate on WWS parses are always much lower than what's on my character doll (especially WF). I would expect that I should at least be hitting my ~28% crit rate w/ Kings (that's not counting dual Mongoose procs).

Attached is a parse from a VR last night
VR Kill

Or a Morogrim with about 100 more DPS, but still crappy WF crit totals:
Tidewalker Kill

My gear in the armory is current, I did swap out the abacus for the Prism of Inner Calm. I apologize in advance for the shameful belt/cloak I am using (praying the rogue take pity on me and let have the belt off of Vashj ifit drops)

Is there something more I could be doing (I haven't embraced totem twisting yet) do get my WF crits up to where they should be? Or is this just more argument for the two roll system for WF?

Finally as an aside I realize I'm probably an idiot for passing on the Talon yesterday from Al'ar to a hunter. My thinking is holding out for Netherbane or just waiting until BT to upgrade is fine and I can get along with my Fool's Bane. I just don't see much press for the Talon in here, so I assumed that I just bide my time and stick with something that is good enough despite the DPS loss.
#2601SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Crit rate is taken as a percentage over ALL swings, not just the ones that hit. WWS will show crit rates as #Crit/#Hits.

I'd recommend the Bloodlust Brooch over the Abacus. Remove all your hit gems.

I say again....

REMOVE ALL YOUR HIT GEMS.
#2602SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• fangar
Wow first post and I get yelled at by Malan. Thanks.

One hit gem no less. I have been hoping to replace those gloves so I didn't bother regemming them (I had them an exceptionally long time from when I was hardcore resto and gemmed up all the hunter gear I got with +8 hit before I knew any better).

Working on my badges for the brooch, I am just exceptionally lazy.

Regarding the crit rate. Thanks for the clarification. I assumed that the WWS tallied in the same manner as what actually happens in the combat table. Shame on me for assuming.

Last edited by fangar : 09/17/07 at 12:07 PM.
#2603SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shawndreya
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 12:15 PM. Reason: Spelling error
#2604SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.

I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.

Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism?

Thanks again for the responses and the help.
#2605SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
To be honest, the only time I totem twist is when we are clearing trash just to make it go faster. I don't use the prism, although I have one. Just keep an eye on your threat meter and you will be fine. When you get about 80% of tank's threat stop shocking and just auto attack to let your aggro gradually drop. On fights like VR, I generally drop tranquil air until he is at 70% anyways.
#2606SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Oh. Well honestly all I did was mouse over a few items and the first one I saw had a +Hit gem on it, so I just stopped there and figured you probably had more.
#2607SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Silverspring
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job


Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it
#2608SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bigity
When does DPS > speed on a weapon

I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.

However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers). I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, disregarding stats, when is a faster weapon a better choice than a slower, lower DPS weapon?

My armory link in case it's useful to the question:
The Armory
#2609SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
We're just trying to help you. Totem twisting, although beneficial, is a huge mana burner. So I would not recommend doing it in long fights like Tidewalker. Especially if you end up having to heal yourself.
If you ever have to heal yourself there's something wrong. Healthstone & healing potion is all you should ever need with any competent healers.

Originally Posted by fangar
I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.
I've done it from blues/Karazhan gear up to my current gear; I'll endorse it fully. Initial TA's are amazing, it not only lowers your threat ceiling but your party's as well. I generally switch out TA for GoA once aggro is well established (ie 10-15ish% below tank threat), and it's simple math from this point on sustainability and overall dps increase. With mental quickness and totemic mastery TA/WF is 173.5/5 mana to keep up, GoA/WF is 218.5/5 or 20820/26220 mana on a 10 min fight. This isn't even that much mana, it's when coupling it with shocks every CD that it gets intensive and unsustainable- think about it, 7xxx mana raidbuffed, full mana bars every rage excluding your first, it's a maximum of needing 4 rages to keep up cycling when you are allowed 5 rages in a 10 min fight, you're looking at 7xxx+leftover mana from your 4th rage for shocks, something like 17 flame shocks + whatever you can do to burn down your mana before your first early/subsequent rages.

Cycling totems requires a small portion of awareness because your SR's are what let the build do what it does, so you need to make sure various abilities have gone off before you hit your rage(ie graves, iceblock, roots, whirlwind, whirl, tomb, meteor timer, port timer, flamestrike, spine, bloodboil, fa, sleep, rain of fire, burst, fear, ect), although I suppose this is true even if you are just a shock person!
#2610SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Re: yellow damage crits: I am seeing a lot of variation of the crit percentage between white damage, windfury and SS. WF and SS are ALWAYS lower than white damage, and in long parses (~1M damage overall) WF and SS seem to approach the same percentage. But it's not as simple as being 6% less, as might be expected...it's more like 3-4% less?

Strangely, the crit percentages between WF and SS were as out of whack as I've ever seen them on my Gruul's raid last week, where I spent about half the time in a group with the feral druids. SS was about 2% higher than WF.

(There were also some turning issues...I don't SS when a mob's front is to me because that usually means one of the rogues has drawn aggro and if I don't scale back I'm next. Sure enough, my WF hit rate is about 5% lower than my SS hit rate, so it could be as simple as that)

Disco, can you dream up a test of the two roll-theory?
#2611SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
edit: @ fangar. Wow you guys post fast.

I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW.

For VR, are you being put in the tank group? The added WF/GoA/UR buffs usually mean I don't have to worry about threat at all. Also, I try to save lust for when I'm sneaking up on threat. You're getting Salvation, right?
#2612SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
bigity: I've found empirically that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand. You can predict which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post, they're usually quite close.

I don't know that anybody's researched the exact relationship between weapon speed and damage, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. Remember, you want high swing damage for WF and SS procs -- you'd need a 2.0s weapon with at least 78 dps to match your current hammers in terms of swing damage, and by then you're talking L70 epics.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/17/07 at 2:15 PM.
#2613SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3bigity
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
bigity: You can prove to yourself which weapon is better by running one of the great simulators posted in the topic post. I've found that green 2.6s (~60 dps) were much, much better than epic 1.8s (~80 dps), even in the offhand.

I don't know that anybody's researched the relative values of weapon speed and dps, but it's going to be pretty high in favor of slow and low. I did a sim of the Runic Hammer (2.4s, 83.5 dps) vs. my Boggspine Knuckles (2.6s, 71.7dps) and I kept the knuckles. Whether that's because they were always better, or because the difference didn't outweigh the cost, i don't remember.
Ah ya know I didn't even think about the calculators. How retarded of me Thanks.
#2614SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by rava
If you ever have to heal yourself there's something wrong. Healthstone & healing potion is all you should ever need with any competent healers.
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
#2615SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
I prefer to heal myself when invigorate is up rather than pot. I tend to save pots/healthstones for emergencies only. That way when such an emergency occurs, my cooldowns are up.
You reset your swing timer and use a global for 1500 healing?
#2616SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Ya, I'd rather have the my potions up for those moments whne its like "Oh damn, I only have 10 hp!" so I can top myself off asap. Situations like that are more important than losing a few swings IMO. Besides, I don't like having to rely on healers all the time.

But everyone plays differently. If you feel safe relying on your healers, more power to you.
#2617SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by fangar
Yeah I know you are trying to help, which is why I edited in the smiley because I laughed when I saw Malan's reaction. I even knew it was coming when I paniced and rechecked my armory to see that lone +8 hit gem sitting there. I knew what was coming so it made me laugh.

I am still undecided on totem twisting TBH. I struggle from time to time on mana and I know some people use it extensively and others don't touch it. I'll have to pull down a mod and see what i can do with it on the next relatively static VR.

Although my issue with VR is threat, which is why I was using TaT. Would it just be better to die from the pounding, anhk up and go full bore? Thus negating the need for TaT and the prism?

Thanks again for the responses and the help.
This is something I found out, and apparently only shaman can do it (warriors and rogues tried and did not have the range): on VR, if you stand at the maximun range of your stormstrike, you will not get hit with the pounding. More importantly, it will consider you to be out of melee range, so you will have to accumulate 130% to pull it. The down side is that it will occasionally lob orbs at you, so stay far away from tanks
#2618SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
Originally Posted by Silverspring
First of all thanks for an awesome thread. You guys have done a great job


Fangar just a tip, you could try to use a FS and ES rotation donno if you have thought about it
Yeah I did (I have read this entire thread at least once and most posts twice). My raids run against the debuff cap so my simple flame shock was the first to go and I just ES exclusively. I'm actually surprised that that issue is not mentioned here.

Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots.
#2619SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by rava
You reset your swing timer and use a global for 1500 healing?
I do the same thing. When specific healers aren't there, melee tend to not get healed, so those "emergencies cooldowns" are the difference of doing dps or laying on the ground and grabbing a drink while the raid finishes.

2 second heal, global cooldown is done when the heal goes off, you can continue. Does it stop dps? Yes, but, it's winning situation, imo.
#2620SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Diogo
This is something I found out, and apparently only shaman can do it (warriors and rogues tried and did not have the range): on VR, if you stand at the maximun range of your stormstrike, you will not get hit with the pounding. More importantly, it will consider you to be out of melee range, so you will have to accumulate 130% to pull it. The down side is that it will occasionally lob orbs at you, so stay far away from tanks
It only works for cows, you can out range kaz'rogal's stun and a few other things with the cow hit box.

I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose!
#2621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Well on fights where everyone is taking damage, I can't assume that I will be healed in priority to say the tanks, or other healers. On nights when our resto shamans don't show up, taking the time to heal myself can be life saving. Aside from that, healing yourself when able takes stress off healers, allowing them to focus on the critical players. We have the ability to heal ourselves, there's no reason we can't utilize it.
#2622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by rava
I really can't imagine not having faith in healers to do 1500 healing half a dozen times per fight, to each their own I suppose!
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
#2623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by bigity
I'm leveling up my horde enhancement shammy, and I'm aware of the fact that slow/slow with dual WF is the best DPS.

However, how much speed is worth how much DPS? Do I upgrade to a weapon with 5-7 more DPS but that is .7 speed faster (specifically talking about the Grunt's Waraxe vs Pneumatic hammers).
A 65 DPS green 2.6 is more damage than a 85 DPS 1.8 (Emerald Ripper) when matched with the same main hand weapon, so chances are pretty good that you'll be better off sticking with the hammers.
#2624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Malan
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
Spoken like a champion Malan.

Oh, and thanks for the Kael'thas tips a few days back. We killed him last night, congrats to me on T5 chestpiece.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/17/07 at 3:40 PM.
#2625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3BoinKlasik
Mana issues.

Originally Posted by drats
I'm a big proponent of totem twisting, but in moderation. Doing it for a whole fight is kinda rough, esp if you don't have BoW.
one of the biggest differences i see between my use of mana while totem twisting and other guilds is that we use a prot paladin in most of our fights. Since tidewalker is the most typical fight for guilds to use a prot paladin i will use that as an example. TW WWS you will note from this parse that JoW accounts for 13 thousand mana in that fight. (although, this is a terrible parse, I was tombed 5 times in a row.)

What I would recommend doing for those of you that seem to have mana issues, is ask your healadins to throw up JoW sometimes. It is up for 20 seconds it is up if they don't refresh it. Even that short time can return a decent amount of mana even in the very long fights.
#2626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
Malan,

I believe the weight for Haste Rating still needs to be updated in the Pawn string, near the bottom of the first post.
#2627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tqq
I'm a little surprised by how low crit% some people on here have considering they are better geared than myself. I am currently at 27.87% with a couple blues left to replace and wearing my more balanced gear with hit, etc. I should break 28% today when I find a damn leather worker to make my Thick Netherscale Breastplate.
#2628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
So when you find yourself below the health threshold of a mob ability you just continue to DPS and wait for someone to heal you? Even rogues and warriors know to stop and bandage themselves.
That statement was in direct regard to invigorate. Look at what was posted,
Regarding Invigorate. I tend to heal myself when I notice the buff is up and I need it. I eat HS constantly and generally save my potion timer for haste pots.
Take any quote out of context and you can make it sound like whatever you want.

There are two fights I can think of when I actually reach a point where I have to bandage and that's Mother and Council, simply due to the spiky nature and randomness of abilities. Any other boss where it matters has set times when they use abilities, or they use them frequent enough that you are lucky to get 1 tick of a bandage, let alone an uninterrupted heal. Everything is a judgment call, different situations call for different timers, and I'm honestly surprised you'd say something so condescending.
#2629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yasuhiko
Originally Posted by Disquette
2) We don't know that Thundering Strikes doesn't grant the crit bonus to yellow attacks. I'm currently of the thought that the observed discrepancy is an effect of the 2-roll system for yellow damage. Some day I or someone else could test this.
My thoughts were that the 6% to hit with DW specialization does not effect Stormstrike and WF, but since we have enough hit (be it from gear or guidance) that we never see it miss anyway.

Last edited by Yasuhiko : 09/17/07 at 7:54 PM.
#2630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Incorrect. The 6% and 3% in resto will hit cap you on specials vs a boss mob.
#2631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant.

Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
#2632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai
I recently changed to Enhancement (and guild, but that doesn't really matter :P) and due to randomness of loot and being unlucky, neither [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or [Rising Tide] have dropped so I decided to pick up Blacksmithing for [Dragonstrike]. I don't have it yet and I will most likely end up with not enough vortexes this reset meaning I have to duck it out with what I have at the moment. However, we won't go back to t5 for another week, so I was thinking whether [Dragonmaw] was a significant enough upgrade over [Talon of the Phoenix] that would justify enchanting the Dragonmaw with 20 str. Any rough numbers in how much dps the proc from Dragonmaw is worth?
In short, enchant Dragonmaw or continue with what I have? I'm definitely not going to put Mongoose on it, since that's just wasting gold, but 20 strength isn't THAT expensive and if my DPS is going to see a significant enough improvement from the difference in between Dragonmaw and Talon, albeit for only a week I would gladly pay mats for an enchant.

Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
I don't see how you can gimp your AP going for crit, unless you're using the improper gems. And no I can't see, since the armory is down.
#2633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai
Oh and by the way, lately I have been struggling... I was of the opinion like most Shamans that Crit Rating was just awesome, so I kind of gimped my AP/Str a little... I ended up with 29% crit and 1543 AP (Unbuffed, of course). Way to go, or should I focus a little more on AP again?
That's about the same I'm sitting at so if you're a mix of T4/T5 level items, you're fine.
#2634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Malan I've got a couple of questions for you. First is about haste. First you say its worth 2.22, but then when you talk about the Haste Potion you say it's only worth 1.42 per point. Could you please clear up which it's supposed to be (maybe its calculated at post nerf value, while other is at pre nerf? I really don't know). Also you might want to add the Insane Strength Potion to that list for those wanting to know. Its (120*2*15)/120=30, with 33 with kings/UR or 36 with both.

My other question is about WF totem and rogues. I know that it's better for sword/mace/fist rogues, but what about dagger rogues? Pre nerf the post I saw where they used the Malch dagger it was only slightly better, but I haven't really seen anything convincing showing if thats still true post nerf, and I couldn't find anything about it when I searched the forums here. Also could you link the thread showing that WF is still good for rogues that you make mention to in the first post. A link to math is always more helpful in an arguement than just saying its better w/o anything to back it up.
#2635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rajni
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.

The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab.

Last edited by Rajni : 09/17/07 at 10:52 PM. Reason: grammar, go!
#2636SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Originally Posted by Rajni
In regards to the windfury totem on rogues, since the change, it actually provides a slightly larger bonus to daggers than to swords/fists, as it's a static ap bonus, and daggers will proc the chance more often, leading to more damage.

The reason fists/swords were better before the change, was that the SS spam could proc windfury, which is used a lot more than backstab.

I understand that its less of a nerf to dagger than other rogue specs, but its still a nerf to them since backstab, mutilate, and w/e else they might use (I don't know too much about rogues if you couldn't tell) can't proc it anymore. Given how close WF vs GoA was for dagger rogues thats why I'm wondering if it was enough to make GoA better. Generally our group makeup is me, 2-3 dagger rogues, feral druid, and a warrior and I'm trying to figure out if GoA would be better when the warrior isn't in the group. Hell I would like to see the new numbers for warriors post nerf as well so that I could determine if WF for one person is better than GoA for five.
#2637SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
The haste values are just an oversight that I need to correct. It should be 1.48 I believe once 2.2 hits Live.

As far as WF Totem, Disquette is organizing some testing for the next PTR that will provide some final numbers on it.
#2638SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Alright thanks. I'll be sure to check back later then to see the final results.
#2639SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Originally Posted by Igniter
I don't see how you can gimp your AP going for crit, unless you're using the improper gems. And no I can't see, since the armory is down.
Originally Posted by Malan
That's about the same I'm sitting at so if you're a mix of T4/T5 level items, you're fine.

I specced resto for some PvP, so you wouldn't be able to see anyway. My gear is t4/t5 indeed, with a few items from t6. Bracers from Supremus, class trinket, boots, just little bits and pieces. We farm t6 content, so I'm getting gear fast.
As for gems, I think I went a little too nuts on the +8 crit and +10 crit gems. Oh and I have one hit gem, need to replace that one when I get around it :P and yes the gemming in my chest is horrible, but I was kind of waiting for an upgrade, in retrospective I should just regem that a little.
I logged out in my Enhancement gear and spec, so you can see as the armory just updated my page. Hopefully. Mind you the stats will be a little off, as I can't dual wield and I think I was a little drunk when I last checked my stats as Enhancement :P.

Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?

Last edited by Illundai : 09/18/07 at 12:22 AM.
#2640SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?
That would entirely depend on your own stats/buffs. Why not run Yo!'s sim to compare the weapons?
#2641SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Ok I think I've corrected all occurrences of Haste Rating to be 1.48, and I added the Insane Strength Potion value.
#2642SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
roknir
WF vs GoA

This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank?

Last edited by roknir : 09/18/07 at 5:15 PM.
#2643SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Lunaps
Originally Posted by roknir
This might have already been posted in this thread, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

I'd like to poke the bear in the cage about WF vs GoA. We know about how warriors, druids, and rogues get benefits from each, which is better and why. But, what do you do in the situation that you have a paladin tank?


I usually go with either WoA or GoA, but it depends on the rest of the group makeup. The one pally tank I run with usually asks for WoA.
#2644SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zertenia
Hi there, I am new to the forum and I have been reading this thread with much interest.

I noticed the debate regarding hit rate that you do not need to attempt to cap the limit as hit rate only effect the melee damage and not WF, SS. But although I understand that hit rate does not directly affect the windfury hit, but the original WF triggeriing attack surely is and if an attack misses, would that not be missing an opportunity for WF proc?

I currently have mid-kara gear with approx. 240 hit, 24% crit and 1200AP but is all this hit rate a waste? I do have a lot of hitrate gems.

I'm sorry if this has been talked about already but I could not find it as I did a search.

Thank you!
#2645SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Lose all the hit gems, they are not needed. I raid with around 150-170ish, and I've heard people going even lower than that. You should get some more AP, follow the gem guide on OP for socket itemization.
#2646SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
T.K.
Zertenia, the table for atks don't work that way you think.

You won't miss a chance to proc WF because of low hit. We already discussed this in here, but i'm on a rush now and can't explain it to you again. But trust us, drop hit gems, use the gems we suggest and you'll see a higher deeps.

Last edited by T.K. : 09/19/07 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Rushing grammar
#2647SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zertenia
Shwandreya, T.K,

Thanks for your replies, I was just reading through the 'combat table' and I think I figured something out... So crit hit is determined before the normanl hit on a separate probability determination... I think I have got closer to the secret! but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction! hehe.

Thank you people, I love this thread!
#2648SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Zertenia
but really, how are 'casual' players menat to know all this... it was definitely not on the instruction!
http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t15648-i...yers_informed/
#2649SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3fjour
Hi i am new here and i am a enhance shaman as well in Jubeithos.
however my guild does not progress so well, and i was thinking how to get more ap.
The question is anyone use or test the
Darkmoon Card:Wrath
and
Darkmoon Card:Crusade?
Which one would be more useful or better in terms of pvp and pve(raid)???
I currently standing at 130 hit rating is that enought for 25 man raid???
I ty for reply and guidance.
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
#2650SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by fjour
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
The least you can do before you post is read the first page (which answers your questions) and use the search function.
#2651SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by fjour
And i apologize in advance if theres post of above statement before that i overlook, please do let me know the page

regards
The least you can do before you post is read the first page (which answers your questions) and use the search function.
#2652SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai
I specced resto for some PvP, so you wouldn't be able to see anyway. My gear is t4/t5 indeed, with a few items from t6. Bracers from Supremus, class trinket, boots, just little bits and pieces. We farm t6 content, so I'm getting gear fast.
As for gems, I think I went a little too nuts on the +8 crit and +10 crit gems. Oh and I have one hit gem, need to replace that one when I get around it :P and yes the gemming in my chest is horrible, but I was kind of waiting for an upgrade, in retrospective I should just regem that a little.
I logged out in my Enhancement gear and spec, so you can see as the armory just updated my page. Hopefully. Mind you the stats will be a little off, as I can't dual wield and I think I was a little drunk when I last checked my stats as Enhancement :P.

Anyway, does anyone have a number to put on how much DPS the proc on [Dragonmaw] is worth?
By making your blues str/stam, and the yellows all 5 crit/str (assuming your guild is low on spinels like everyone else) you can gain what, 80 ap? Thats a pretty decent boost.
#2653SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Fluffiez
**EDIT** Found some Info... running my own numbers.... **EDIT**


Heyas, I have run a search for this... and I hope I have not overlooked it, but I am curious as to how Darkmoon Card:Crusade may be worth a little bit more (if and when) we get the attack power > spell damage changes. Granted this is all in theory right now with the prospective 30% conversion making flame tongue offhand on a fast weapon a potentially viable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.


From waht I understand FT Imbue will proc the spell side of the trinket... which should stack quickly to the 80 spell damage (**edit ignore this i am dumb**. In addition to the 120 attack power when the melee side stacks (30% of 120ap = 36 spell damage). For a potential of 116 total spell damage bonus.

Does anyone know the % benifit our shocks get from spell damage, as well as the % thats FT Imbue would recieve? I would looks these up, but am "working" so I cant surf to much.

This + the changes to ?mental quickness? for the 60% mana reduction to our shocks after melee crits just gets my brain turning....

regardless I am still getting my Merc Gla 2.6 for my offhand today


** EDIT 2 **

From 08/05/07, 4:02 PM Post #1101 Disquette
As for the AP bonses and its scaling, consider the following:

100 increase to AP used on OH FT:
100 * 30% * 10% = 3 dmg per swing.
3 dmg * 86% = 2.58 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
2.58 * 1.09 = 2.81 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
2.81 * 1.1 = 3.09 (Curse of elements)
3.09 * 1.05 = 3.25 (5% spell crit rate)
3.25 * 1.15 = 3.74 (elemental weapons)
Soooo.... for the card only....

120 increase to AP + 80 spell damage used on OH FT:
(120 * 30% + 80sp.d) * 10% = 11.6 dmg per swing.
11.6 dmg * 86% = 9.976 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
9.976 * 1.09 = 10.87 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
10.87 * 1.1 = 11.96 (Curse of elements)
11.96 * 1.05 = 12.55 (5% spell crit rate)
12.55 * 1.15 = 14.44 (elemental weapons)

So.. 14.44 dmg/swing increase for FT.


Unless I have overlooked something... thats pretty decent.

Last edited by Fluffiez : 09/18/07 at 4:07 PM.
#2654SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Fluffiez
Heyas, I have run a search for this... and I hope I have not overlooked it, but I am curious as to how Darkmoon Card:Crusade may be worth a little bit more (if and when) we get the attack power > spell damage changes. Granted this is all in theory right now with the prospective 30% conversion making flame tongue offhand on a fast weapon a potentially viable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.


From waht I understand FT Imbue will proc the spell side of the trinket... which should stack quickly to the 80 spell damage. In addition to the 120 attack power when the melee side stacks (30% of 120ap = 36 spell damage). For a potential of 116 total spell damage bonus.

Does anyone know the % benifit our shocks get from spell damage, as well as the % thats FT Imbue would recieve? I would looks these up, but am "working" so I cant surf to much.

This + the changes to ?mental quickness? for the 60% mana reduction to our shocks after melee crits just gets my brain turning....

regardless I am still getting my Merc Gla 2.6 for my offhand today

Earth shock = 28.6% spell efficiency
Frost shock = 27.2% spell efficiency
Flame shock = 21.5% + 4.2% spell efficiency

Flametongue Imbue = 10% spell efficiency
And for finding flametongue you do:
( 35 * weaponspeed + spellpower / 10 )

That will tell you the damage flametongue will do per hit.
#2655SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Fluffiez
**EDIT** Found some Info... running my own numbers.... **EDIT**


Heyas, I have run a search for this... and I hope I have not overlooked it, but I am curious as to how Darkmoon Card:Crusade may be worth a little bit more (if and when) we get the attack power > spell damage changes. Granted this is all in theory right now with the prospective 30% conversion making flame tongue offhand on a fast weapon a potentially viable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.


From waht I understand FT Imbue will proc the spell side of the trinket... which should stack quickly to the 80 spell damage. In addition to the 120 attack power when the melee side stacks (30% of 120ap = 36 spell damage). For a potential of 116 total spell damage bonus.

Does anyone know the % benifit our shocks get from spell damage, as well as the % thats FT Imbue would recieve? I would looks these up, but am "working" so I cant surf to much.

This + the changes to ?mental quickness? for the 60% mana reduction to our shocks after melee crits just gets my brain turning....

regardless I am still getting my Merc Gla 2.6 for my offhand today
Flametongue procs don't proc the spell damage side of the trinket. There is a post already up about this 20ish? pages back.
#2656SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Flametongue weapon does not proc the trinket, only shocks, lightning bolts and chain lightning. If one of your shocks is resisted the spell component of the trinket expires before you can shock again. I had this trinket and it is very rare to have it stacked up to 10.
#2657SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Fluffiez
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Flametongue weapon does not proc the trinket, only shocks, lightning bolts and chain lightning. If one of your shocks is resisted the spell component of the trinket expires before you can shock again. I had this trinket and it is very rare to have it stacked up to 10.

Ahh I see that now... sorry, I was pulling info from the wow public forums (big mistake)... So getting the full 10 stack would be far more difficult (rank1 LB spam anyone... jk). I have edited my origional post based on Disquette's math from way back.

120 increase to AP + 80 spell damage used on OH FT:
(120 * 30% + 80sp.d) * 10% = 11.6 dmg per swing.
11.6 dmg * 86% = 9.976 (resist rate, mitigated 3% by nature's guidance)
9.976 * 1.09 = 10.87 (full stack of improved scorch debuff)
10.87 * 1.1 = 11.96 (Curse of elements)
11.96 * 1.05 = 12.55 (5% spell crit rate)
12.55 * 1.15 = 14.44 (elemental weapons)

So.. 14.44 dmg/swing increase for FT.

and about 31-32 damage to shocks (ONLY based on spell efficiency % from a couple posts up)

Last edited by Fluffiez : 09/18/07 at 4:29 PM.
#2658SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Restrepo
Correct AEP Values for sockets?

I'm having some difficulty wrapping my head around the AEP values provided in the OP for sockets. Everybody seems to be valuing sockets at 17.6 AEP, regardless of color. My problem with this is that you can't get the same value out of a blue socket that you can out of a red or yellow socket.

If we use the best possible rare gems as a base, and use our accepted AEP values, we end up with this:

Red Socket = [Bold Living Ruby] (8 * 2.2 = 17.6 AEP)
Yellow Socket = [Inscribed Noble Topaz] (8 + (2.2 * 4) = 16.8 AEP)
Blue Socket = [Sovereign Nightseye] (4 * 2.2 = 8.8 AEP)

Now, I realize that your mileage may vary on exact AEP, some of use Use Bold Living Ruby's, and some of use [Bold Crimson Spinel]; But the overall result should remain the same. There is no gem combination that fits a blue socket that will generate as much AEP as a red or yellow socket. What am I missing here??




*****************


Afterthought - Right about the time I was finishing my typing, getting ready to hit the 'Submit' button, I remembered that there is nothing stopping me from putting a [Bold Living Ruby] in that Blue Socket. I just won't get my bonus. I've decided to post anyway, afterall, I did do some math....
#2659SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
You're not missing anything, we just assume that every socket is filled with max DPS contribution.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2660SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Restrepo
There is no gem combination that fits a blue socket that will generate as much AEP as a red or yellow socket.
[Shifting Tanzanite]
#2661SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
For future reference if anyone wants to do some fancy schmancy math here, you can use some limited LaTeX markup with [latex].

Observe!
x = \frac {1-p} {2p !}
x = \frac {1-p} {2p !}

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2662SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Restrepo
Yeah, that's what I realized as I posted... Now, I'm not a BT / Hyjal level Enh Shaman. I'm a Kara Shaman. Do those of you who raid Enh at the BT / Hyjal level need to run with max contribution gems to remain competitive on DPS charts?


EDIT** [Shifting Tanzanite]

I didn't want to count this gem, Unique-Equip would make it a little hard to base general calculations around it...
#2663SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Originally Posted by Zertenia
Hi there, I am new to the forum and I have been reading this thread with much interest.

I noticed the debate regarding hit rate that you do not need to attempt to cap the limit as hit rate only effect the melee damage and not WF, SS. But although I understand that hit rate does not directly affect the windfury hit, but the original WF triggeriing attack surely is and if an attack misses, would that not be missing an opportunity for WF proc?

I currently have mid-kara gear with approx. 240 hit, 24% crit and 1200AP but is all this hit rate a waste? I do have a lot of hitrate gems.

I'm sorry if this has been talked about already but I could not find it as I did a search.

Thank you!

In order to get one extra WF proc from 1% +hit it would take an average of ~300 swings to get an extra WF proc since you would be gaining 1 extra attack per 100 swings and it takes on average 3 swings (because of the 36% proc rate when DWing WF). Assuming a 2.0 weapon speed with flurry and being perma flurried (from what I've seen when running shamulator you won't be perma flurried even with 35% crit rate but we will use it for the math) it would take on average 300 seconds to get a WF proc from that +1% hit, but that could be an MH or OH proc, and then when you do get that "proc" from hitting that extra 1% of the time you have to hope that it's then not blocked by the 3 second CD. Or you could get more crit and ap and not have to worry about all of this while still increasing both your white hits and yellow hits damage.

Thats why Crit/AP>hit in a nutshell. I'm sure someone could explain it better than I can but I don't see anyone attempting to (probably because they are tired of explaining it)

__________________
#2664SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Just to keep you folks updated wit my latest project:

As I've written previously, I started a complete rewrite of my equipoptimizer in c++, since I ran into a few performance problems after adding some new functionality.

http://wowequipoptimizer.googlecode....es/weo2tp1.zip

is a Technology Preview of the next version:
  • Console only
  • No enchants
  • No relicts
  • hardcoded enh shaman
  • No on-use items modelled

Besides that, the new version is between 6-10 times faster, even in this highly pre-alpha preview version, but it already includes the new BT gems and the previously missing meta gems. Gem-handling is not yet complete though, but will be soonish.

The Technology Preview uses an external garbage collector library by Hans Boehm/HP, TinyXML and the boost libraries (heavy use of the boost libraries).

After finishing the few missing basic functions, I will have to write an UI for it, obviously it should be platform-independent. Suggestions for an UI toolkit are welcomed
(And no QT is not a choice, due to the fact that the open source version does not support MS visual c++).

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#2665SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3VinnieJones
Ok, sorry to post this here but I just beat my head against the wall on the search engine and couldn't come up with anything. My second set of gear that I spec to weekly is an enhancement set for farm content and 5 man stuff.

My question is, I just got a Decapitator and I want to make sure that even with the general lack of stats other than the crit it is still better than Fool's Bane before I drop a mongoose on it? And again, sorry for having to ask this.

Also, a main hand gladiator weapon isn't a possibility for me, before anyone tells me to just grab that. It's been decided my elem spec is better for the team so my points are going towards that gear for the near future.
#2666SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
Get a Gladiator weapon Vinnie.

My hunch would be that the DPS increase is better, but I would recommend that you run YOs simulator and that would tell you pretty quickly which specs out better.

BTW Hi Vin
#2667SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Guns
Originally Posted by Restrepo



*****************


Afterthought - Right about the time I was finishing my typing, getting ready to hit the 'Submit' button, I remembered that there is nothing stopping me from putting a [Bold Living Ruby] in that Blue Socket. I just won't get my bonus. I've decided to post anyway, afterall, I did do some math....
On this note, the meta gem requirements for the 3% crit gem are generating a lot of stress for me... I have re socketed probably 5-6 gems in the same gear to get it to stay active and I keep finding myself dropping more 'useful' gems such as bold living rubies for nightseye. I would love to throw all rubies or maybe a few crit(+str) gems (to activate some bonuses) but I find myself compromising for the gem.

This is making me think about switching to the (pretty lame and sub-par) ap and run-speed gem. I am on my way out otherwise I would do the math, but is the 3% extra damage beneficial enough to warrant the hassle of activating it?
#2668SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aefos
I just don't get it.

/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike

/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Tranquil of Air Totem, Stormstrike

Lets do the math...

Cost of ES = 535 x .06 = 535 - 32.1(talented 6%) = 503

Windfury Totem = 325 x .75(talented) = 244 for 20% WF proc.

Cost of ES = 535 x .06 = 535 - 32.1 - = 503 (6% from talents) I know the math is funky.

GOA 310 mana x .75(talented) = 232 mana for 88 agility talented.

TOA .06% base mana x .75(talented) = (Can't log in ***** baggers) for 20% threat reduction.

All I am saying is that the crying over the "high" mana cost is pretty stupid which is usually coming from someone who is spamming SS and both shocks when they are up.

If the cost of the GOA totem and TOA totem + WF totem are a lot higher then the cost of a single shock that is fine. I don't have the math on ToA but lets use WF + GOA...

WF 224 mana + GOA 232 mana = 456 mana. That is LESS then the cost of one ES and I can almost guarantee that TOA will cost roughly the same. You just gave your group an extra 20% threat reduction (14% if you already have salvation) or 88 agility at the sacrafice of 1 shock every 10-12 seconds which can easily be resisted by a mob that has a base resist chance of 17% against us.

Using math some more (When you are using max damage rotations) which I am messy at...

ES math 17% chance to resist = 3% from talents = 14% resist rate (not counting partials because all bosses have a base resistance to every school of magic that are above our level I am going to the bar I will add that in later) that gives you 1 shock every 12 seconds (one of your shocks is likely to hit a global cooldown but I will give you the bene) for 658 to 692 Nature damage averaging 675 damage at a 5% chance to do double damage which = 709 damage over 12 seconds. Then factor in 14% resist rate = This turns into 610 damage every 12 seconds. THAT OMG this is getting epic! turns into 50 dps when divided by 12 seconds.

Moving on

hmmm give my ENTIRE group 14% threat reduction or 88 agility (not doing the math on agi... too many class differences) at the cost of 50 dps... And you might not even be able to use your shocks because the boss does not allow it, such as SSC and nature resist.

Can someone help me redo the math so it looks cleaner? I can do it in my head and with a calc but typing it out is a B. I will try to redo it after I had a few beers then it will look epic even then some!



This is mainly to get people to see that if you are going to spam... spam totem twisting and help out the raid
#2669SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
1 Shock every 12 seconds? I dunno about you, but my cooldown says 6 seconds. Interlacing ES and FS is a lot more DPS than what you've just accounted for.

As far as the "crying" and "omg this is epic" statements, leave that crap elsewhere please.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2670SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Disquette
One thing to add to the calculations, minor though it may be, is that with Twisting you not only lose the mana costs of the totems, but you reset the global cooldown one additional tick. It's only 40 mana or so, but if you're calculating it out, why not.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#2671SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
*shrug* I totem twist a lot as well and it really does cost less mana by itself than shocking. I also tend to throw in an earth shock just before I stormstrike (since stormstrike has been used by then), and if I am getting low on mana for some weird reason I can just stop shocking or stop twisting. His complaint is that people are using "but it costs so much mana!" as an excuse not to totem twist, when really, it costs less. If it's less personal dps, that's a different (and much more valid) excuse to use.
#2672SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
My Earth Shock averages 785 damage (other classes sometimes eat SS charges) while my Flame shock averages 473 on the initial hit and ticks for 132 on average. So assuming a max damage rotation thats (785+473+(132*4))/12=148.83 repeating DPS. Then lets factor in SS damage since it's also part of the damage rotation and depending on the shaman could also have to be given up for totem twisting. I average 307 per hit or 614 for damage (since the average counts in both MH and OH hits). Now divide that by 10 and you get 61.4 DPS from that for a total DPS gain of 210.23333 at a cost of 535+500+250=1285mana per 12 seconds or 107.08 mana per second untalented. The cost is probably slightly off because I forget how much SS costs untalented and I'm currently not logged in. Also this DPS doesn't include resists or crits.

Now the cost of Totem Twisting is 325+310=635mana over 10 seconds, or 63.5 mana per second untalented. Granted most people take -25% to totem costs, but since I didn't include Mental Quickness or Convection in the other rotation I didn't think it fair to include the cost reducing talents here.

Of course these numbers are all hypothetical and ignore lag and the GCD which I'm sure you would run into. Given GCD and lag both numbers would go down slightly you would end up with WF sometimes falling off of people's weapons (even moreso on mobile fights where you might not be able to lay the totem when you need to to refresh it). Also I highly doubt you could sustain either of these at their max potential w/o JoW and BoW in addition to SR since the SS+shock rotation would eat up 38548 mana in a 6 minute fight, and Totem Twisting would eat up 22860 mana in a 6 minute fight.

Another thing is that I would lose 20% of my damage if I cut out the SS and shock rotation (would be more if i would remember to cast FS more). Also if you try to add in dps moves to totem twisting then you start having to juggle even more GCDs and start eating up more mana (assuming 250 mana for SS, adding just it into the 6 minute fight ups the total mana spent to 31860), and once the AP to Spell Power change goes live you will be losing even more DPS.

So in short, yes it can be good if you can support the mana that it costs, but your going to be either giving up a good chunk of DPS to do this, or have a pally keep JoW on the mob at all times (and you will be juggling GCDs and timers)

__________________
#2673SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3flipcanon
on totem twisting
if you are totem twisting you would losing an opportunity to chug a health/shrouding potion that would either save you in a tight aoe situation or make you lose dps due to being at the aggro roof more due to the fact that you need to constantly drink mana potions to maintain totem twisting unless your mana regen/total intelect/ap counterproductively high
#2674SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
I need to make sure that I've got a multiplier in a calculation correct - which raid debuffs affect Earthshock damage?

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2675SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
I need to make sure that I've got a multiplier in a calculation correct - which raid debuffs affect Earthshock damage?
Misery: 5%
Stormstrike: 20% 2 charges of course
NIGHTFALL: 15% for 5 sec, roughly 2PPM.

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/19/07 at 10:27 AM.
#2676SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shawndreya
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:25 AM.
#2677SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using nightfall. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
I was nothing if not comprehensive.


VVV Yeah I wasn't being serious at all. VVVV

Last edited by Shabadu : 09/19/07 at 10:29 AM.
#2678SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
I understand that, nothing against you. I'm just trying to make sure we get things as accurate as we can.
#2679SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using nightfall. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
Oddly enough, endgame guilds on our server use Nightfall on certain boss fights. I've read around the WoW forums that other guilds use it to. Read some applications to endgame guilds from warriors and paladins some time, some say "I am willing to swing Nightfall if that's what helps the raid out.".

Crazy, I know.
#2680SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shawndreya
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/19/07 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Sticky keys
#2681SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
#2682SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Malan
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
I've been under this impression for some time, but, then again, I could be wrong, too. (Lots of comas, w00t!)
#2683SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Added procs of the following trinkets:
+ Dragonspine Trophy
+ Ashtongue Talisman
+ Madness of the Betrayer
+ Hourglass of the Unraveller
+ Tsunami Talisman
Remember to add their static bonuses manually
Added procs granted by 4 pieces of the following sets:
+ T 3.5 (+160 AP for 15 sec)
+ T 4
+ T5
+ T6
+ PVP (-1s SS cooldown)
#2684SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yakout
Yo!,

Is there any hope of getting Flametongue Weapon support (along with necessary accompaniments like Spell Damage) at some far-off point in the future? Either as a serious point of inquiry, or at least as a means of demonstrating empirically to lazy skeptics that WF/WF is better?

(Again, request for when more useful stuff is all done, at some point in the future.)
#2685SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
Hmm, how odd. To me that five second gap doesn't seem like much. But if you say end games are using it, might as well make a secondary calculation for that scenario.
We use one on our OT for fights like lurker. Not like he can do anything usefull otherwise anyway.
#2686SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
#2687SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by kojimoto
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
You have the weapons, test them yourself? Otherwise, look at Yo's sim for a decent take on what the different weapon combinations will do.
#2688SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by kojimoto
so i finally got my hands on both the syphon of nathrezim, rising tide, and dragonstrike. i know a few pages back there was some discussion that there is only a *minor* dps increase depending what you put on your mainhand, offhand first, but with no actual data or straight answer and with alot of disagreeing.

what im looking for is actual tests with data thats been done, and using the syphon on the OH, and Dragonstrike on the MH, and so on with the rising tide as well. as you guys know, syphon is 2.8, dragonstrike(mh only) 2.7, rising tide 2.6

this also might make a difference, but im sitting at 132 haste rating (12.56%).


I know on the very first post there was info about this as well, where someone would use rising tide on MH and syphon on OH and got more MH wf procs as well as syhpon on MH tide on OH but got more OH procs, but it was removed and i was curious to why?
There is data a few pages back with some one that used DS-MH/Syphon-OH then daul Syphons. Broken down in to dps and how much increase/decrease it was. Might be 10+ pages ago.
#2689SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by rava
You have the weapons, test them yourself? Otherwise, look at Yo's sim for a decent take on what the different weapon combinations will do.
if i had the time i would, i work 9 hours a day, raid for 5 hours as soon as i get home 5days a week, then spend time with the wife etc.

all i can really do is switch weapons during trash and see how big my wfs are, but i wont be able to really count numbers how much wfs my mh gets, vice versa, and even loading these data addons. il play around with that sim, doesnt seem to be what im looking for though
#2690SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
I pulled it out because it was inconclusive, one test said Syphon was best MH, the other said Rising Tide was.

You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'.
#2691SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by Malan
You might want to figure out why your shift key works for things like 'OH' and 'MH' but not for the first letter of a sentence and 'I'.
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
#2692SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by kojimoto
i dont see any significance in that, i seperate my capitals so people dont think im saying "OH MY GOD YOUR A DOUCHE" or even yet, im MHISSPELLING. as far as making my "I" i didnt think i joined english jerks forums.
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
#2693SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
I think moral here is that Dragonstrike, the Syphon and Rising Tide are all really good. The tests I've seen (both empirical and simulated) imply that there isn't a heckuva lot of difference either way, so just use the ones you want and don't break the DKP bank for one of the three if you already have the other two.

Dragonstrike is going to get nerfed with the next patch, so I say main hand it while it's still worth it.

There might be a secondary moral about how the constraints of your chosen lifestyle don't induce imperative on others, but considering my chosen lifestyle is trolling forums, I should probably just clam up. Also, that "English Jerks forum" comment was damn funny.
#2694SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3kojimoto
Originally Posted by rava
I do believe it is more about proper forum etiquette! Easier on the eyes to read proper grammar and such! Otherwise, it's like: and they were like woosh, and i was like woah, and they were like pewpewpew and then we all went out for pancakes to celebrate and i was like numnumnum
Understood, I'll work on my grammer since it seems to have an affect to gather answers, and as well as getting flamed for it.
#2695SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Silmeria
Originally Posted by Malan
Also just to verify what someone had corrected me on earlier - the effects of something like Scorch Debuff and Misery and CoE are applied multiplicatively and not additive, correct? ie, Bonus = 1.15 * 1.05 * 1.10
Correct.
#2696SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by kojimoto
Understood, I'll work on my grammer since it seems to have an affect to gather answers, and as well as getting flamed for it.
http://elitistjerks.com/misc.php?do=cfrules

Put some effort into your posts. Don't spam, don't type mindless drivel and hit Post without hesitating — this isn't a chat room. Do take a moment to look over your post before you hit post. I recognize that many posters here don't speak English as their first language, and that's obviously understood and respected. Usually those posters make more comprehensible and well-constructed posts than so-called native speakers. If your post is riddled with typos and grammatical errors, we're going to assume you're an idiot with nothing worthwhile to contribute, so you're wasting your time by posting. You will be warned and banned if your posts, by virtue of their incoherence, consistently contribute nothing to discussions in which they appear.
Emphasis added.
#2697SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3aefos
I was not trying to direct the QQ comment about twisting sorry if I sounded like that. Most people I talk to in game QQ about it when asked not you guys it was just a general statement.

As of the 12 seconds you do 1 ES then 6 seconds later you do 1 FS that is 12 seconds between each ES and that isn't even counting if you catch a global here and there. I was mainly stating that you can drop ES out of your SS / FS / ES rotation and losing one shock out of the 3 rotation you can replace it with totem twisting which IMO GREATLY out weighs the dps from the shock. Let alone the debuffs that could be used on someone else IE if your guild has an bird I can guarantee he will offer lap dances to any enhancement shaman who doesn't use ES on his rotations.
#2698SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
I hardly doubt someone at 70 would be using [Nightfall]. So we shouldn't really add that into the calculation.
I have it on my weaponswap macro and throw it on when it looks like i'm going to pull aggro. No point in stopping my dps completely, and the buff really helps since we tend to run caster heavy.
#2699SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Hmm, that's an interesting strat, drats -- I suppose you'd want to avoid those nasty 2H WF procs; do you use any imbues at all?

I now know of three or four weapon/inbue swap macros for decreasing threat -- swapping for a weapon and shield (for the additional defense should aggro be pulled), swapping in fast daggers (to keep up UR), downranking Windfury and now whipping out Nightfall. All of these seem more useful than simple turning off auto-attack -- anybody else got a weapon swap strategy?
#2700SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3drats
The WF procs aren't really a problem since max damage for nightfall is so small. I prefer to keep WF on the nightfall, since the added hits increase the proc rate.
#1621SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
New poster here. I'm a huge fan of these works, thanks for keeping them going. On to the meat.

I didn't know about that autoattacking problem - that's great info. Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
#1622SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
2) Best combo - good slow MH and good slow OH with different speed. If they have the same speed - you will perform slightly less than similar pair of weapons with different speeds.
Someone else had mentioned this observation a week or so ago, looks like you found the data to really back it up. So the question I still have though is what direction should the speed difference be - slighly slower or faster OH?
#1623SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Morninglory
New poster here. I'm a huge fan of these works, thanks for keeping them going. On to the meat.

I didn't know about that autoattacking problem - that's great info. Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?

I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
Yes. OH will hit first everytime if you started out of combat range.
#1624SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Morninglory
Does that screw up your cycle so that OH will hit first everytime, or only on the initial attack?
When I tested that, it showed the one hand that started the cycle to keep hitting first. Unless, like I said, I missed a cycle by moving out of range with auto attack still turned on, when that ocurred I had random behaviors.

So now, I just use the toggle auto attack button more. When I know I have to move out of range or get a knockback I turn it off and turn it back on only when I re-establish melee range.
#1625SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Yo!
Yes. OH will hit first everytime if you started out of combat range.
So, does it pose any problems to just walk into melee range and go directly to stormstrike to start your autoattacking? I heard that it will just give 4 immediate strikes in that case.
#1626SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
I heard that it will just give 4 immediate strikes in that case.
It does, but imo its better to hold SS for a second to check if your initial swings didnt proc WF, in which case I try to time SS for when the WF cooldown is over. (no idea if that actually improves my dps, since we'r talking about a full 3 second pause?)
#1627SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
Someone else had mentioned this observation a week or so ago, looks like you found the data to really back it up. So the question I still have though is what direction should the speed difference be - slighly slower or faster OH?
Can not answer it with my sim as it appears now.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:25 AM. Reason: Wrong answer
#1628SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aeolian
Originally Posted by Morninglory
I also wanted to ask if anyone knew of a mod where I could track any of the following - AP, weapon speed, crit - in a panel or fubar addition as opposed to opening my character panel during raids. I'm trying to mainly keep track of weapon speed to see if I'm falling into any wells at particular times.
There is no Panel mod I know of, but there are a few good mods available.

I use this one for tracking my attack speed.
Anavar's Attack Speedometer | Downloads

It basically shows the attack speed percentage and what the individual weapon attack speeds are. Its basic function is just the percentage, mess around with it a bit, the individual attack speeds can be turned on.

Another mod to check out is Index of /WF3sec/ .

This was designed by someone here on the forums. It shows attack power, crit and hit. Believe it also shows Attack Speed, but I have that function turned off. But it also shows cool down bars for the internal 3 sec Windfury timer and Stormstrike among other things.

I run both, with certain things turned off to suit my needs.
#1629SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
Slower.
I went digging back to find some posts related to this. Around page 50 or so someone had posted some WWS parses with testing between Rising Tide and the Syphon to see which made the better MH/OH combo. The WWS parse showed that having the slower weapon in the MH resulted in a 10-12 DPS gain over having the OH be the slower of the two. Disquette followed up that post by stating he'd seen the same indications in his sim. Thoughts on that?
#1630SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
I personally SS every 10 seconds to keep up the SS debuff as often as possible since we run with an elemental shaman. Seems like a miniscule dps increase for a potentially larger one from a few more 20% lightning bolts per fight.
#1631SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'm interested in knowing why you believe this is the case, given that if you synchronize your swings you'll be getting 4 swings per flurry and your main hand will always be considered to be striking 'first' when both hands swing at the same time. I understand that there are ridges in your graph, but I don't understand why unless the only thing you're doing is modeling WFs lost to the timer, in which case you aren't taking the full gamut of mechanics in to consideration.
4 swings per flurry is exactly 1 swing from MH, 1 swing from OH, 2 extra from WF from the hand that triggered it with the MH having the priority (this was explained somewhere before). There is no hidden benifit for using same speed weapons implented by Blizz.
#1632SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morninglory
Originally Posted by Aeolian
There is no Panel mod I know of, but there are a few good mods available.

I use this one for tracking my attack speed.
Anavar's Attack Speedometer | Downloads

It basically shows the attack speed percentage and what the individual weapon attack speeds are. Its basic function is just the percentage, mess around with it a bit, the individual attack speeds can be turned on.

Another mod to check out is Index of /WF3sec/ .

This was designed by someone here on the forums. It shows attack power, crit and hit. Believe it also shows Attack Speed, but I have that function turned off. But it also shows cool down bars for the internal 3 sec Windfury timer and Stormstrike among other things.

I run both, with certain things turned off to suit my needs.
Fantastic! I'll grab the both of them.

On another note, I'll be grabbing a merc. gladiator weapon tomorrow. I'm probably going to get the 2.6 axe even though aesthetically I really would like the Right Ripper. (MH only, doh....) I will be moving my current MH, netherbane, to my OH as well. I'm still tossed up on which enchant to put on my new weapon. I know this has been covered before, but I can't help thinking that I'll see a bigger gain from putting Crusader or Potency on my new weapon since Netherbane has mongoose on it already. It's not a question of money, I have the mats for either. Someone reassure me that Mongoose will really help and not push me towards some kind of diminishing crit returns while raid buffed!
#1633SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
I went digging back to find some posts related to this. Around page 50 or so someone had posted some WWS parses with testing between Rising Tide and the Syphon to see which made the better MH/OH combo. The WWS parse showed that having the slower weapon in the MH resulted in a 10-12 DPS gain over having the OH be the slower of the two. Disquette followed up that post by stating he'd seen the same indications in his sim. Thoughts on that?
Run bigger test, the answer of what is the better MH/OH combo is unclear. Probably it is outside of the game mechanics covered in my sim.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/21/07 at 9:21 AM.
#1634SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
I changed my model for the new melee haste value and 1 HasteRating is now as good/bad as 1 HitRating:

Base: 989.519653 = 2200 AP, 22% Hit, 25% Crit, 0 Haste, 2.6s Weapons
+ 1% Hit: 997.479431
+ 1% Haste: 997.417542
+ 1% Crit: 1002.89575
+ 50 AP: 1003.89355

Obviously they changed it, because hasterating was superior to any other rating, now all 4 ratings are fairly consistent, even though for an enh shaman Strength is slightly superior to CritRating.
Have you even redone your model to reflect the stats of people who actually have haste rating? Seeing how it stacks up on a Kara geared player who won't have access to any is pretty pointless.
#1635SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Yo!
4 swings per flurry is exactly 1 swing from MH, 1 swing from OH, 2 extra from WF from the hand that triggered it with the MH having the priority (this was explained somewhere before). There is no hidden benifit for using same speed weapons implented by Blizz.
That isn't what I said. Normally you get 3 charges of flurry, but if your MH and OH are synchronized then they will both receive the benefit of the last charge of flurry since the debuff isn't stripped fast enough. It's the same principle as WF5/4 during the 2.0 patch. It has nothing to do with Windfury. Your simulation apparently does not consider this to be a factor so your results are incomplete.
#2726SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Yakout
@Malan

The OP's list of top 5 MHs has "Wicked Edge of the Plains" instead of "Wicked Edge of the Planes". Not at all a big deal for anyone with two wits to rub together, but it does break the item link.
I blame Rob, I think I copied/pasted that from him.
#2727SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis
What ppm/uptime are you using to model these procs? The sim is giving me results that are not consistent with our theorycrafting up to this point.
Dragonspine - 1.5 ppm
Ashtongue 75% per hand on SS.
Madness - 2.4 ppm
Hourglass - 0.9 ppm, crits only
Tsunami - 0,9 ppm, crits only
T3.5 - 1% of any hit
Please be more specific - what exactly looks odd to you?
Did you "add their static bonuses manually"?

Last edited by Yo! : 09/19/07 at 9:54 PM.
#2728SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
I blame Rob, I think I copied/pasted that from him.
Maybe, but I corrected it in the TTT

Anyway, perhaps this will end the weapon selection discussion...

For non-orcs
You will want to choose maces or fist weapons since current itemization gives bonus skill to these but not axes. The first 5 weapon skill is worth 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge. Consider picking up a [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] to gain this 5 weapon skill; it's better than the best BT belts because of it.

If you have access to [Syphon of the Nathrezim], dual wield it. (Put your first one in your OH if you have an MH-only weapon like Dragonstrike, otherwise it doesn't matter which hand you choose.)
If you don't have access to a Syphon, mainhand a [Dragonstrike] and offhand a [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
If you don't have access to a Dragonstrike, you can mainhand a [Dragonmaw] and offhand an MG Pummeler, or dual-wield MG Pummelers.
Everything beneath this should be clear.

For orcs
You will want to choose axes since your racial gives you 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge if you equip an axe. (You will thus have the luxury of being able to select the best belt available to you, ignoring the weapon skill on Bo100D.)

If you have access to [Rising Tide], use it. (Put it in your OH if you have an MH-only weapon like Wicked Edge of the Planes, otherwise MH it.)
If you don't have access to a Rising Tide, mainhand a [Wicked Edge of the Planes] and offhand a [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] or dual-wield MG Cleavers.
If you only have one or even none of the above, [Black Planar Edge] is the next-best MH choice. (OH a MG Cleaver if you can.) A [Dragonstrike] or MG Pummeler would also be acceptable substitutes for the Black Planar Edge.
Everything beneath this should be clear.

Assumptions/Rationale:
Dragonstrike/Dragonmaw uptime is ~25% or less*. With the proc equal to 12% haste rating in 2.2, this is at most a 3% increase to white damage -- i.e. equivalent to 3% hit rating. It is thus not worth selecting a Dragonstrike over a Wicked Edge of the Planes for an orc; they gain the 3% hit from weapon skill and the larger statistics on the axe.

No test comparing wielding Syphon/Rising Tide combos has ever shown >3% increase to white damage, and many have yielded conflicting results, so we should defer to theory here, which says that slow weapons will tend to be better ceteris paribus.

Everything else should follow fairly clearly from this.

* This may be an inaccurate assumption; more to come on this point.

Last edited by Rob : 09/20/07 at 2:40 AM. Reason: Boratz' correction, Morelis' data
#2729SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
Dragonspine - 1.5 ppm
Ashtongue 75% per hand on SS.
Madness - 2.4 ppm
Hourglass - 0.9 ppm, crits only
Tsunami - 0,9 ppm, crits only
T3.5 - 1% of any hit
Please be more specific - what exactly looks odd to you?
Did you "add their static bonuses manually"?
I measured the performance of the trinkets in your sim using the stats from my armory profile and my usual raid buffs, I added and subtracted static bonuses as necessary. I then ran the sim again putting in the static bonuses of each trinket as well as the approximate passive contribution of each proc based on observation and the results were a bit off. For haste stuff I assumed 2.2 values as well as reduced uptime on DST.

DST:
1203 - Sim
1151 - Passive 5.14% haste (325 haste rating with 25% uptime)

MotB
1152 - Sim
1143 - Passive -120 armor (300 with 40% uptime)

Ashtongue
1175 - Sim
1160 - Passive 220 AP (275 with 80% uptime)

I don't have any empirical data for uptime on the hourglass and TT but using 0.9 ppm returned values that were about 25dps lower than the value from using the sim option for the trinkets.

The results seem to consistently over-value the trinkets especially the DST, is there something else that might be accounting for it? I also wonder if the same thing might be happening with the weapon enchant options.
#2730SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Boratz
@Rob

Rising Tide is unique, thus can't dual wield.

Otherwise that's a top breakdown analysis.
#2731SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob
Dragonstrike/Dragonmaw uptime is ~25% or less. With the proc equal to 12% haste rating in 2.2, this is at most a 3% increase to white damage -- i.e. equivalent to 3% hit rating. It is thus not worth selecting a Dragonstrike over a Wicked Edge of the Planes for an orc; they gain the 3% hit from weapon skill and the larger statistics on the axe.
For what it's worth, after I noticed the lowered uptime on DST on the PTR I tested Dragonstrike right away. I was relieved to find that it hasn't had any kind of internal cooldown added and the proc rate appears to be unchanged. I've gotten uptimes from 35-40% whenever I've tested it which would be 4.5-5% haste.
#2732SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
everwatch
Begging a few answers on the topic of GoA vs. WF totem again. And please, listen to my explantion.

Before the WF totem nerf I ran WF totem exclusively and was spec'd into it. After the nerf, my rogues (3) and fury warrior (1) wanted to test some things out. The main reason why we decided to test this was because we had one rogue who regularly put poisons on his MH weapon even if WF was out. Regardless, we ran several runs with WF and then several runs with GoA with poisons/sharpening stones. The melee players in my guild unanimously all told me that they wanted me to run GoA while they used sharpening stones/poisons. I was spec'd into both of the totems at this time, and this occured after the WF Totem nerf. In addition, keep in mind that at several occasions I will swap out the current air totem for Tranquil Air. This is more to benefit our Fury warrior who has severe threat issues. And I'm not a big fan of totem twisting myself. I tried it. I've decided to not use that tactic.

Now on to the question.

Are my boys just seeing what they want? Or are they right? Is it possible their results are specific to our guild/group makeup with gear/specs/playstyles? I did not track their numbers myself. I simply told them on the specific days what I was running for them, and to then tell me which one netted them more dps in the long run. Is someone planning on doing extensive testing on the new results of using GoA with poisons over WF? Their standpoint is that GoA is superior, at least for them. I saw mention of Disquette organizing some tests on PTR, but did not see any details.

I listed below some of the WWS reports from Boss Kills so you can look at the rogues/warrior if you like: Hashassasin, Veneno, Polymer, and Darip. These are using GoA for them. I don't have any with WF totem because we only recently started using WWS within the last few weeks. I wish we had used it sooner so I could compare some fights. The Officers of my guild typically always run 1 druid in our party even if all 3 rogues and the 1 warrior are there. This is an extreme rarity btw. Usually one of the 4 is not in the raid. So standard makeup is either:

1 Feral Druid, 1 Fury Warrior, 1 Enhance Shaman, 2 Rogues
1 Feral Druid, 1 Enhance Shaman, 3 Rogues

The party members, and my guild officers have made a few decisions (totem use and party makeup) that drastically difffers from some commenly held "truths". But the issue that I come to is I find their arguements and their positions solidly argued and made. I've read every single page of this thread. However considering my guild mates found results that differ from the commonly held truths, I was asking for opinions/reasons on why they may be right or wrong. Thanks again.

This thread taught me just about everything I know about Shaman. You have no idea how much I appreciate the hard work all of you have put in to make the information available to other Shaman like myself.


Anetheron Kill
Rage Winterchill Kill
Teron Gorefiend Kill
High Warlord Naj'entus Kill

P.S. Before you rag me about spec'ing into Imp Ghost Wolf, I'm the Totem/Kite/Puller for Trash Mob waves in BT. We're not 100% to speed on every wave, so sometimes I'm hauling ass to make it out past the NPC's and to drop totems, and get all of the Banshees and Shadowy Necromancers casting on me and my totems while I run like hell so no one gets alpha striked. For the role my guild has me perform there, I find it amazingly useful. The 1 second cast changed the situations from me dying some of the time, to never dying.

Last edited by everwatch : 09/20/07 at 2:39 AM.
#2733SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
@ Boratz -- thanks, I will edit to reflect this.

@ Morelis -- Hmm, other posts I had seen said 25% uptime (perhaps the proc rate changes between incarnations of the weapon and I was looking at the wrong one).

Does anyone else have uptime figures on Dragonstrike proc?
#2734SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3GamingManiac
Concerning Belt of a Thousand Deaths

Just picked up Belt of a Thousand Deaths off Vashj thing today (was using Belt of Deep Shadow). However, I have several issues. Right now I'm MHing Big Bad Wolf's Paw MH, Merciless Gladiator Axe (bought it months ago) OH, while Rising Tide/Syp are in the near future (missed them both dropping when I would have had prio since I was gone the nights they've dropped).

First off, the belt only benefits my main hand. My rogue friend (who theorycrafts pretty heavily) is pretty sure that if the MH is benefitting from the belt and the MH alone, it's still the best belt in the game (ahead Boneweave Girdle). If it was OH and not MH, it wouldn't. Is he correct in one or both assumptions? I know that the belt is conclusively the best one if you can get the appropriate weapons (as has been mentioned many times over), but my question's relevant to if I only have one weapon slot that's of the right type.

Secondly, the same question as above, but if I was running with Rising Tide/Syp. I apologize if these specific questions have been answered before but I'm positive they haven't, and I'd run simulators, but I have a Mac and no apple ID to download Java 8 for Yo!'s sim. Thank you very much.
#2735SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by everwatch
Begging a few answers on the topic of GoA vs. WF totem again. And please, listen to my explantion.

Before the WF totem nerf I ran WF totem exclusively and was spec'd into it. After the nerf, my rogues (3) and fury warrior (1) wanted to test some things out. The main reason why we decided to test this was because we had one rogue who regularly put poisons on his MH weapon even if WF was out. Regardless, we ran several runs with WF and then several runs with GoA with poisons/sharpening stones. The melee players in my guild unanimously all told me that they wanted me to run GoA while they used sharpening stones/poisons. I was spec'd into both of the totems at this time, and this occured after the WF Totem nerf. In addition, keep in mind that at several occasions I will swap out the current air totem for Tranquil Air. This is more to benefit our Fury warrior who has severe threat issues. And I'm not a big fan of totem twisting myself. I tried it. I've decided to not use that tactic.

Now on to the question.

Are my boys just seeing what they want? Or are they right? Is it possible their results are specific to our guild/group makeup with gear/specs/playstyles? I did not track their numbers myself. I simply told them on the specific days what I was running for them, and to then tell me which one netted them more dps in the long run. Is someone planning on doing extensive testing on the new results of using GoA with poisons over WF? Their standpoint is that GoA is superior, at least for them. I saw mention of Disquette organizing some tests on PTR, but did not see any details.

I listed below some of the WWS reports from Boss Kills so you can look at the rogues/warrior if you like: Hashassasin, Veneno, Polymer, and Darip. These are using GoA for them. I don't have any with WF totem because we only recently started using WWS within the last few weeks. I wish we had used it sooner so I could compare some fights. The Officers of my guild typically always run 1 druid in our party even if all 3 rogues and the 1 warrior are there. This is an extreme rarity btw. Usually one of the 4 is not in the raid. So standard makeup is either:

1 Feral Druid, 1 Fury Warrior, 1 Enhance Shaman, 2 Rogues
1 Feral Druid, 1 Enhance Shaman, 3 Rogues

The party members, and my guild officers have made a few decisions (totem use and party makeup) that drastically difffers from some commenly held "truths". But the issue that I come to is I find their arguements and their positions solidly argued and made. I've read every single page of this thread. However considering my guild mates found results that differ from the commonly held truths, I was asking for opinions/reasons on why they may be right or wrong. Thanks again.

This thread taught me just about everything I know about Shaman. You have no idea how much I appreciate the hard work all of you have put in to make the information available to other Shaman like myself.


Anetheron Kill
Rage Winterchill Kill
Teron Gorefiend Kill
High Warlord Naj'entus Kill

P.S. Before you rag me about spec'ing into Imp Ghost Wolf, I'm the Totem/Kite/Puller for Trash Mob waves in BT. We're not 100% to speed on every wave, so sometimes I'm hauling ass to make it out past the NPC's and to drop totems, and get all of the Banshees and Shadowy Necromancers casting on me and my totems while I run like hell so no one gets alpha striked. For the role my guild has me perform there, I find it amazingly useful. The 1 second cast changed the situations from me dying some of the time, to never dying.

I'm sorry, but I dont know what you want us to tell you. From what you describe (no wws from when you used to drop WF) we really have no useful information to impart other than what has been stated time and time again: for rogues and warriors, windfury is much, much better than GoA. Nothing else scale with gear as it does. You've given us no information to try to understand why your melee classes feel like that, and, from your statement that you do not have the data from your wf runs, they dont seem to have that info either.

Now, I dont mean to sound like I am flaming you, but this has been asked time and time again.

As to why your melee classes do not realize how good WF is, one can only guess. Maybe they dont have sct and therefore do not notice when they get the extra attack, whereas the extra agility is right there in the tooltip. In any case, WF is still better than GoA.
#2736SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Dacora
Got ya Rob, thank you. Lets say though that the only OH weapon I have is faster then 2.6, maybe an epic dagger or something. Would I then want to put WF MH and FT/RB on OH? I only want to know this for general purpose. My Shaman is an Orc and I plan on dueling Gladiator axes unless I come across a better one.
#2737SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis
I measured the performance of the trinkets in your sim using the stats from my armory profile and my usual raid buffs, I added and subtracted static bonuses as necessary. I then ran the sim again putting in the static bonuses of each trinket as well as the approximate passive contribution of each proc based on observation and the results were a bit off. For haste stuff I assumed 2.2 values as well as reduced uptime on DST.

DST:
1203 - Sim
1151 - Passive 5.14% haste (325 haste rating with 25% uptime)

MotB
1152 - Sim
1143 - Passive -120 armor (300 with 40% uptime)

Ashtongue
1175 - Sim
1160 - Passive 220 AP (275 with 80% uptime)

I don't have any empirical data for uptime on the hourglass and TT but using 0.9 ppm returned values that were about 25dps lower than the value from using the sim option for the trinkets.

The results seem to consistently over-value the trinkets especially the DST, is there something else that might be accounting for it? I also wonder if the same thing might be happening with the weapon enchant options.
Thank you for the test. My sim is not assigning dps value to trinket directly - it is a real simulation in that it runs step-by-step just like in game though much faster (Hours value represent it). Your uptime values are "plain ones" - if you are using "uptime" you have to include cross-interactions between game mechanics. Did you include flurry, mongoose, winfurry, SS to come up with those uptimes? How did you account for interactions between theese mechanics? Anything that affects speed will affect uptime. Furthermore - benefit of this uptime will be different for each stat combo. This is exactly what sim solves - shows benefit for your gear with your set of procs.

EDIT: Regarding DST - sim uses post 2.2 value of haste raitng but pre 2.2 value for ppm. I did not see new ppm values for all the trinkets yet.

EDIT: Regarding Hourglass and TT - it procs on crits only!

Last edited by Yo! : 09/20/07 at 8:15 AM.
#2738SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nanaho
Hello. Just wanted to ask if I should replace my Fel edged axe with blue pvp reward in offhand ofc. In mh I have Drakefist hammer and in the morning I was planning to put mongoose on Fel edged axe but after reading this thread im not sure if I it is a wise thing to do.
#2739SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
@Yo, I think you can remove the dragonslayer buff from your sim, it does not work with level 70 anyway. Sunflower Serenade does not work either.
#2740SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Nanaho, please you the simulator linked on the front page (do a search for "Yo!" to find it), put in your stats, and compare the weapons.

Everwatch - we're going to have much cleaner data on this soon, hopefully. You could even be part of the testing crew that shows it! Please check the thread linked below, and sign up if you have the time/inclination:

PTR 2.3 (not here yet) testing issues / signup
#2741SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
@Rob - I'm incorporating the weapon discussion into the OP.

@Everwatch - without a WWS for identical groups, on identical fights, using WF and then GoA, there's no comparison to be made. All you provided were WWS of GoA groups with several different class makeups, on several different fights.

Originally Posted by GamingManiac
I'd run simulators, but I have a Mac and no apple ID to download Java 8 for Yo!'s sim. Thank you very much.
You can sign up for the Apple dev site regardless of whether you have an appleID or not, its open to the public as long as you register for it.
#2742SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Zerath
Originally Posted by Malan
I blame Rob, I think I copied/pasted that from him.
That was my mistake, sorry.
#2743SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Dacora
I'm not so sure I am fully understanding the Windfury Weapon topic. Are you saying it is still better to put WF on both weapons, as long as the OH weapon is 2.6 or slower, or that putting WF on your MH with Flametouge (if the target is not immune to fire) on your OH, or even put WF on your OH and FT on your MH?
WF/WF is better than every other weapon combination, as long as you are using slow weapons.

Also, with the subject of haste, you say there may be a valley between 1.5 and 1.41 that may lower our dps so try not to get that fast. What if our haste makes use go faster then 1.41?
It gets even worse in terms of WF procs, but by then your autoattack DPS will have skyrocketed and you'll still be doing oodles of damage.
#2744SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It gets even worse.
No, the theory about that valley said that at 1.41 - 1.51 you drop WF DPS (although you gain a lot of white DPS) and then once at 1.40 or lower you gain all that WF DPS again.

Oh you ninja edited, I saw that.
#2745SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
0.5 MH/OH in Hyjal with the necromancer buff last night, that was 12 swings for every available WF proc, insane dps and alot of fun for the melee.

The term "gets worse" is a bad one, your dps gets better, that is the main thing to remember, and even with this theoretical "valley" it has been proved to not be the case in some very limited testing.
#2746SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
I don't think it gets even worse. Theorycally 1.49 is bad, because you'll need 3 more hits after a WF proc to proc it again "wasting" 1.47 seconds after the WF internal cooldown ((3x1.49)-3) . Let's say you are at 1.01 weapon speed, you still need 3 more hits after a WF proc to proc it again (3x1.01=3.03) But you "waste" only 0.03 seconds so you just filled the WF cooldown with 2 good hits.
#2747SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
I haven't had a 2 stack of Necro buff in a while, either our priests have given up on me, or more likely, they're double and triple stacking the feral tanks for threat.
Attached Thumbnails
wowscrnshot_091807_220107.jpg  
#2748SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I no longer use the phrase "lose DPS" as its totally inaccurate. I prefer to say that its a "drop in potential WF output" or "increased delay between leaving the WF cooldown state and having an eligible hit for a WF proc." Both of those are much more descriptive of what the problem is.

Edit - btw, just how common of a drop is the Syphon and the Rising Tide? Every shaman in BT seems to have 2 Syphons and a Tide to play with.
#2749SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
From what I've read, Syphon is one of Supremus' most frequent drops.

So obviously, I'm pretty psyched that soon I may have them.

-Edit- I had read that the syphon effect was amplified by warlock and shadow priest debuffs, yet in your SS it shows it being a stable 20. Are these rumors not true? Or were your casters targeting something else?
#2750SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
We killed Supremus and Naj'entus 16 times and only 2 syphons and 3 rising tides dropped. The syphon effect is amplifyied by every debuff the mob has (misery, cos, etc). The bad side is that mechanical mobs like Crystalcore robots, Void Reaver in The Eye are immune to lifesteal what means no extra damage from the proc. Reliquary of Souls is immune as well.
#2751SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dzer
What do people think about enhance shaman cape choices?
Cape of darkreavers or vengeance wrap?

we've killed teron maybe 15times and never dropped the cape :/
#2752SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Right now i'm using darkreavers, but my goal is [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape].

I've heard good things about the cape that Moroes drops... [Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings]
#2753SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3dzer
yes i am using darkreavers as well, vengeance wrap is easily crafted tho and provides;
72ap 23crit 2hit (with epic gem)
vs
34ap 24agi(crit) 17hit

its a shame to loose the stamina tho
#2754SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Malan -- in your "Why 2H isn't viable" section, you neglected to mention that dual wielding with two WF imbues raises the WF proc chance to 36% for either weapon, which is another good reason to dual wield.
#2755SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Malan: You write this in the trinket section:
[Madness of the Betrayer] 113.6 AEP from stats. Using 2.4 ppm (see here) the uptime is 40% giving a passive -100 Armor, valued at 0.25 AEP = 30 AEP. Total value is 143.6 AEP.
Would be good to correct "-100" to "-120". 120x0.25=30
#2756SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Gotcha, thanks!
<---- See my custom title for explanation.

Also added a small note in the 2H weapon area about the 36% proc rate.
#2757SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Shabadu
I'm using a [Cloak of the Inciter] right now. Better than the Moroes cloak I feel, but worse than Dark Reavers. Probably going to get the VE craftable cape come the patch, since that'll be a Vengeance Wrap with Stamina.

As to weapon drop rates, we've seen a silly amount of Tides drop, and only 2-3 syphons. I got priority on the Syphons since it's our end game combo, while rogues have the Kael Mace and any number of swords and daggers; same for warriors.
#2758SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
I kick myself for trashing my cloak of the inciter after I got the cloak off of Moroes (which i still use and think is trash). This was before I learned about the AEP values and was still full resto.

I'm just going to craft a Vengeance Wrap and deal with the sta loss for most fights and swap it out where were appropriate.

Same thing I do with my Celestial Archer bracers and my backup pair.

P.S. Malan I resocketed the one hit gem I had. Of course it cost me a ruby and a topaz to do it as I forgot about my RED requirement. So you owe me 70g
#2759SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
Edit - btw, just how common of a drop is the Syphon and the Rising Tide? Every shaman in BT seems to have 2 Syphons and a Tide to play with.
I'm pretty sure it's just due to luck and the fact that Najen'tus and Supremus are the first two bosses in the zone. We've had 2 Syphons and 1 Tide drop after 100 years of killing the zone, it's all tankadin boots and frog hand shoulders.
#2760SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
My guild's only killed Doomwalker once (nobody wants to get a raid together for it outside of just to say we killed him), and I lost his cloak to a hunter. :/

I have these as the top few enhancement cloaks for us though according to the values I use (included extras past top 5 for reference as to how far down each was):

[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (148 - Gorefiend)
[Thalassian Wildercloak] (126 - Kael'Thas)
[Black-Iron Battlecloak] (120 with no extra stats like stam - Doomwalker)
[Razor-Scale Battlecloak] (117 - Morogrim) <- I use this currently
[Vengeance Wrap] (114 - BoE from a world drop recipe)
[Cloak of the Pit Stalker] (109 - Magtheridon)
[Drape of the Dark Reavers] (107 - Aran)
[Blood Knight War Cloak] (96.1 - Heroic Badges)
[Cloak of the Inciter] (91.4 - Inciter from SL)

With [Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings] from Moroes way down the list at 83.2.
#2761SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shabadu
As to weapon drop rates, we've seen a silly amount of Tides drop, and only 2-3 syphons. I got priority on the Syphons since it's our end game combo, while rogues have the Kael Mace and any number of swords and daggers; same for warriors.
We have been killing supremus and najentus for 3 and a half months and have seen 1 Tide and 2 Syphons, luckily for me I got the priority on Syphons.

A slightly off topic whine is the loot available from Najentus and supremus, 14 and 13 available items respectively from bosses that drop 2 items max, it just seems stupid to have so many possible variances from bosses who only drop 2 items. Come to think of it all the bosses drop 12-15 items and only 2 at once, makes it so you can end up with the same shit everyweek.

We have had the same shitty pala healing chest for the last 3 or 4 weeks, each week being taken as incase it gets improved.

End rant, sorry for the OT.
#2762SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Well at least loot table is increasing it from 2 to 3. Or is that only for SSC/TK bosses?

Regardless, Shamans in most scenarios will have priority on syphons. Seeing as how we benefit most from dual wielding them.
#2763SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Vengeance Wrap is great considering how simple it is to get. Given my guild's progress, I put the PvP award gem in it...I won't be trading it in until Lich King.

Big fan of Shard Bound Bracers for the same reason.
#2764SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krish
Malan and Rob,

One item worth adding to the list of weapons for orcs: Netherbane - Items - World of Warcraft . As you probably know, it's getting a buff in 2.2 as well, and certainly seems better than one or two of the lower items on your existing list.
#2765SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Edit - wait, that's pretty much covered. There's better MHs than Netherbane and the OH section is a list of available OHs from outside of SSC/TK.
#2766SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
Thank you for the test. My sim is not assigning dps value to trinket directly - it is a real simulation in that it runs step-by-step just like in game though much faster (Hours value represent it). Your uptime values are "plain ones" - if you are using "uptime" you have to include cross-interactions between game mechanics. Did you include flurry, mongoose, winfurry, SS to come up with those uptimes? How did you account for interactions between theese mechanics? Anything that affects speed will affect uptime. Furthermore - benefit of this uptime will be different for each stat combo. This is exactly what sim solves - shows benefit for your gear with your set of procs.

EDIT: Regarding DST - sim uses post 2.2 value of haste raitng but pre 2.2 value for ppm. I did not see new ppm values for all the trinkets yet.

EDIT: Regarding Hourglass and TT - it procs on crits only!
The uptimes I'm using are what has been observed by testing in game, so yes all those other interactions are taken into account. The uptimes are also almost certainly a little inflated since they've been tested against lower level mobs which means the difference between the sim and reality is even larger than my testing would show.

It would be very useful if on your stats page you also reported uptime on the various procs that are being modeled. That would make it easy to see if something were either up too much or not enough according to the sim.

One thing to keep in mind on the hourglass and TT is that 0.9 ppm is the observed proc rate, meaning it already takes into account that it can only proc on crits.

Edit: Thinking more on the hourglass and TT you should be able to just model them since I believe we know how they function internally. According to the spell details they're both a 10% chance on any crit (outside of the observed 45s cooldown on the proc).

Last edited by Morelis : 09/20/07 at 2:22 PM.
#2767SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
From what I've read, Syphon is one of Supremus' most frequent drops.

So obviously, I'm pretty psyched that soon I may have them.

-Edit- I had read that the syphon effect was amplified by warlock and shadow priest debuffs, yet in your SS it shows it being a stable 20. Are these rumors not true? Or were your casters targeting something else?

I haven't seen it once in 2 months. Loot is random. Heh.
#2768SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Krish
Malan and Rob,

One item worth adding to the list of weapons for orcs: Netherbane - Items - World of Warcraft . As you probably know, it's getting a buff in 2.2 as well, and certainly seems better than one or two of the lower items on your existing list.
It's a good point that Netherbane, Talon of the Phoenix, and Rod of the Sun King are getting buffed in 2.2. But my list only covers the most commonly asked questions, and we don't usually see any questions about these weapons. (Talons tend to go to rogues and Rod of the Sun King has a proc that only rogues and warriors can take advantage of.) Netherbane would certainly be a good addition to the list for orcs -- preferable to a Black Planar Edge or a Dragonstrike* -- but an MG Cleaver is still equivalent for orcs and an MG Pummeler is still preferable for non-orcs.


* Pending further data on Dragonstrike proc uptime, and even with a 40% uptime = 5% passive haste I still feel 3% hit + ~1% crit + some AP on the Netherbane and/or the MG Cleaver is very comparable.
#2769SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Krish
Malan and Rob,

I agree that the Netherbane and MG Cleaver are almost identical. For many of the Orc Shaman who either don't have 2625 Arena Points to grab one, or 5250 to grab two, and may have acquired or have access to a Netherbane, it seems worth mentioning. If one were to read that list of preferred MH weapons, you would currently get the impression that Black Planar Edge, Dragonstrike, and MG Pummeler were all better choices than the Netherbane for a MH. To my understanding, this is a false impression, and seems worthy of rectifying for those who are using that first post as a basis for their gear considerations (I know I did, and it has been a tremendous help).
#2770SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
Those weapons *are* better for the Main Hand. When I picked up a Netherbane I put it in my OH and moved my Gladiator weapon to my MH. I'll be using my Gladiator until I get into BT.
#2771SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis
The uptimes I'm using are what has been observed by testing in game, so yes all those other interactions are taken into account. The uptimes are also almost certainly a little inflated since they've been tested against lower level mobs which means the difference between the sim and reality is even larger than my testing would show.

It would be very useful if on your stats page you also reported uptime on the various procs that are being modeled. That would make it easy to see if something were either up too much or not enough according to the sim.

One thing to keep in mind on the hourglass and TT is that 0.9 ppm is the observed proc rate, meaning it already takes into account that it can only proc on crits.

Edit: Thinking more on the hourglass and TT you should be able to just model them since I believe we know how they function internally. According to the spell details they're both a 10% chance on any crit (outside of the observed 45s cooldown on the proc).
How much crit observers had? How many attacks were hasted by Flurry resulting in more hits resulting in more procs? Did they SS on cooldown or not (for "clean" testing)? Same goes with windfury - testers switch it off so that special attacks do not increase "base" ppm that they want to find. How about mongoose - was it on? How about raid buffs that testers had NOT on and you selected for the sim? Plug this info (their stats and what mechanics they used while performing the test) into sim and than we can compare the results. I prefer ppm concept over uptime because uptime depends on stats while ppm does not.
Thank you for suggesstion of procs uptime to be displayed - I will do that.
I will also change Hourglass and TT since they were modelled using 0.9 ppm on crits indeed.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/20/07 at 3:54 PM.
#2772SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
I'd be interested to hear your opinions on which is the better setup (A or B). I'm about two weeks away from earning the Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver and am pondering whether to MH or OH it, given the other two weapons I have. I'm inclined to go with Setup-B, but I find myself wondering how much difference there might be between the two .. given the discrepancy in DPS, the contribution of MH versus OH, and orc racials. I'll probably run some comparison tests, just for fun, but until then .. what do you think?

Current Setup
Big Bad Wolf's Paw – MH Only
The Harvester of Souls – 1H

Potential Setup A
Big Bad Wolf's Paw – MH Only
Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver – 1H

Potential Setup B
Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver – 1H
The Harvester of Souls – 1H

I tried running Yo's simulator, but unfortunately, I was unable to load it.

Thank you!
#2773SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
It would be appropriate to link your Armory profile since any answer to that question would depend on how much AP you have from gear.
#2774SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
As requested...

The Armory - Delenda
#2775SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Rob
Yo's sim predicts setup B to be the superior option.
#2776SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
Yo's sim predicts setup B to be the superior option.
#2777SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
Thanks for running that for me! I'm not sure why I wasn't able to run it myself .. tried IE and Mozilla .. on two different computers. It's entirely likely that I'm just being a nub, though.
#2778SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Try installing Java from this link, it helped me.
Yo's post
#2779SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Unaz
My guild's only killed Doomwalker once (nobody wants to get a raid together for it outside of just to say we killed him), and I lost his cloak to a hunter. :/

I have these as the top few enhancement cloaks for us though according to the values I use (included extras past top 5 for reference as to how far down each was):

[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] (148 - Gorefiend)
[Thalassian Wildercloak] (126 - Kael'Thas)
[Black-Iron Battlecloak] (120 with no extra stats like stam - Doomwalker)
[Razor-Scale Battlecloak] (117 - Morogrim) <- I use this currently
[Vengeance Wrap] (114 - BoE from a world drop recipe)
[Cloak of the Pit Stalker] (109 - Magtheridon)
[Drape of the Dark Reavers] (107 - Aran)
[Blood Knight War Cloak] (96.1 - Heroic Badges)
[Cloak of the Inciter] (91.4 - Inciter from SL)

With [Royal Cloak of Arathi Kings] from Moroes way down the list at 83.2.
Regarding cloaks, has anyone looked at the http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...wvioleteye.jpg
Cloak of Darkness?

I couldn't check the PTR at the moment for it, so I can't verify if it's legit or not. But if it is, it looks like a pretty good cloak considering the mats?

With a Bold Living Ruby you're looking at 31 strength, 25 sta, 24 crit rating. Seems like a very nice cloak for anyone pre-MH\BT.
#2780SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Delenda
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Try installing Java from this link, it helped me.
Yo's post

You get a gold star for the day. That worked like a champ .. thanks!
#2781SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
The Violet Eye cloak is what Shabadu was referencing a couple posts ago.

What a royal PITA getting a LW 4 nethers though. Other mats are fairly reasonable, but the nethers suck. I was all set to craft a Vengeance Wrap, but may just hold out for this come Tuesday.
#2782SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vim
I started out as enhancement and went to resto to help my guild progress into SSC (Yeah, back when it was "OMG I need more +hit!!"). I understand that an enhancement shaman is very nice to have the farther into endgame you get, so I was looking around for the best gear to have. I have picked up a lot of what I thought was good enhancement gear, but according to lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character none of the t4 etc gear I have is worth crap. Is this AEP chart correct. Is fel leather gloves really better than my t4 /cry?

On another note, haveing a faster OH gimps my DPS by stealing more WF procs, so Is my runic hammer any good, or should I ditch it for a blue that is slower?
#2783SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
AEP values are roughly correct, fel leather gloves are insanly good in terms of pure dps yes.

Your second question is very clearly answered in the OP.
#2784SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
The Fel leather items are good, sure. But wearing all of them at once would be like a priest wearing the entire Primal Moon Cloth set all at once - you'd be unlikely to survive any of the AoE effects in SSC and TK. Stamina may not improve DPS directly, but I'd sure as hell not take more than 1-2 items that had none.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2785SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Akkron
I've been running some tests to try and figure out what the best two endgame trinkets to shoot for would be. I have access to both Dragonspine and Tsunami Talisman at the moment. I plan on having Ashtongue as one of these for sure in the future, but for now I would like to just acquire one of these two trinkets.

So far it seems like Dragonspine would win over over the Tsunami Talisman, and from what I've seen of how some of our DPS'ers damage has scaled once they aquired a Trophy, it seems quite effective.

However I have one question, does anyone know if Yo's calculator uses the current haste rating value for Dragonspine Trophy, or 2.2's haste values?

*BTW I would like to thank everyone here for all the hard work they have put into discussing and discovering so much about our class. This thread has been a great guide to improving my dps. :-)

Last edited by Akkron : 09/21/07 at 12:02 AM.
#2786SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
He uses 2.2 values for his sim.
#2787SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Akkron
Originally Posted by Xoya
He uses 2.2 values for his sim.
Seems like Dragonspine just wins hands down at least by the values on the sim. I don't know how accurate it is, not much of a way to test it in game until I get a trinket :-P

Has anyone run some comparisons on the two trinkets in game? Would be very intested to hear if anyone has compared them or has a personal opinion on which trinket is better.

Last edited by Akkron : 09/21/07 at 12:01 AM.
#2788SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Originally Posted by Akkron
Seems like Dragonspine just wins hands down at least by the values on the sim. I don't know how accurate it is, not much of a way to test it in game until I get a trinket :-P

Has anyone run some comparisons on the two trinkets in game? Would be very intested to hear if anyone has compared them or has a personal opinion on which trinket is better.

Thanks,
~ Akkron
Thats exactly what the sim is for, so you dont have to get every possible combination and test it out ingame. If the sim says DST is better, it is.

Also, I managed to refrain mysef in your previous post, but now you'r asking for it : STOP SIGNING YOUR POSTS
#2789SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Akkron
Originally Posted by vorda
Thats exactly what the sim is for, so you dont have to get every possible combination and test it out ingame. If the sim says DST is better, it is.

Also, I managed to refrain mysef in your previous post, but now you'r asking for it : STOP SIGNING YOUR POSTS
Sorry haha, I'll go ahead and edit those out. Thanks for letting me know, I'm in the habit of signing my forum posts.

Going to cross my fingers for a DST to drop this weekend when we hit up Gruul, been nearly 2 months since we've seen one.
#2790SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
Originally Posted by Akkron
Going to cross my fingers for a DST to drop this weekend when we hit up Gruul, been nearly 2 months since we've seen one.
Speaking of which, I just helped put together a pug Gruul's Lair run, and it dropped, and I won! Holy crap I can't begin to explain how excited I am right now. What are the odds? Like 7 people rolled, hah.

Just to clarify, the best possible combination for endgame trinkets is currently Ashtongue Talisman of Vision + Madness of the Betrayer, possibly replacing the latter with DST if you don't get a Madness to drop, correct?

Last edited by Xoya : 09/21/07 at 3:17 AM. Reason: Spelling
#2791SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Akkron
Originally Posted by Xoya
Speaking of which, I just helped put together a pug Gruul's Lair run, and it dropped, and I won! Holy crap I can't begin to explain how excited I am right now. What are the odds? Like 7 people rolled, hah.

Just to clarify, the best possible combination for endgame trinkets is currently Ashtongue Talisman of Vision + Madness of the Betrayer, possibly replacing the latter with DST if you don't get a Madness to drop, correct?
Hmm I seem to be getting better numbers after a certain amount of base AP/Crit is obtained with the Dragonspine than with Madness.

I honestly believe that maybe the Dragonspine is still better. The reason being typically about 50% of our DPS is white and once your base stats hit a certain point, those extra attacks you get from the haste rating outweigh the armor penetration proc on Madness.

I could be wrong though. But it does make sense that the Dragonspine would scale up as the rest of your gear scaled up whereas other trinkets provide a more static increase.
#2792SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ ikillyouheal
I've recently starting leveling a shaman, planning on raiding as enhancement.

One thought struck me while looking at specs, what if you specced for Elemental Devestation( Your offensive spell crits will increase your chance to get a critical strike with melee attacks by 9% for 10 sec.) ?
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Assuming an unbuffed spellcrit of 7%, adding a ret-paladin for 3% additional crit and Winter's Chill for an extra 10% Frost Crit (Assuming you're not capped by the threat), you would reach 20% spellcrit while Frost Shocking.

Using a shock every 5 sec with 20% crit would result in a 40% uptime of Elemental Devestation? Someone who is a bit better on math could perhaps elaborate this thought.

__________________
[04:04:29] <Malan> Kaubel just laid the smack down in the the blizzcon thread
[04:05:07] <Kaubel> fucking idiots. i need to go on a banning rampage and put things right once and for all.
[04:05:20] <Kaubel> our forums are infested with pussy.
#2793SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3everwatch
If you'd read most of the posts you'd find that most Enhancement shaman spec into Resto for the sheer viability, utility, and versatility. +3% hit, faster reincarnations, cheaper totems, and 30 yard range totem effects of note. In the end whether you go Ele or Enhance is up to you, however most Shaman found that the bonus dmg you receive from Ele tends to be outweighed by the benefits from Resto.

__________________
[Raid] [Aslowfatboy]: when I pvp, I roll my forehead across my keyboard and the entire battleground dies
#2794SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Assuming an unbuffed spellcrit of 7%, adding a ret-paladin for 3% additional crit and Winter's Chill for an extra 10% Frost Crit (Assuming you're not capped by the threat), you would reach 20% spellcrit while Frost Shocking.
I laughed while reading this and consequently had to explain why to my fiancee, who didn't find this nearly as amusing as I did.

If you weren't threat capped to begin with (unlikely) you sure as hell would be when you started frost shocking.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2795SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Ok, i've got a big upgrade yesterday in tempest keep (loot pinata leggings, trash bracers and solarian boots), and i was wondering what to up for now.

Cause i'm still kind of confused if i have enough hit rating for these stats.
#2796SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Mextro
i was wondering what to up for now.
You're going to need to explain that one.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#2797SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mextro
Well in a way of stats, do i need to keep upping attack power, or do i need more hit for the current gear i have?
#2798SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I've recently starting leveling a shaman, planning on raiding as enhancement.
Using a shock every 5 sec with 20% crit would result in a 40% uptime of Elemental Devestation? Someone who is a bit better on math could perhaps elaborate this thought.
just for your math, the logical failure of your idea was explained previously.

the probability to crit with two shocks and 20% crit is 1-(1-0.2)² = 0.36, so you would be expecting a 36% uptime.

As for now elemental devastation is crap, especially since you can't use frostshock anyway.

In a far, far away future we might reconsider it, if and only if flametongue/frostbrand can proc it and those ap->spelldmg changes will be integrated. Then it might be possible to dual wield flametongue with ultrafast daggers and 15+ hits (incl. flameshock) in 10s to achieve an >80% uptime with 10% crit. This is purely theoretical though.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/21/07 at 8:45 AM.
#2799SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by fangar
The Violet Eye cloak is what Shabadu was referencing a couple posts ago.

What a royal PITA getting a LW 4 nethers though. Other mats are fairly reasonable, but the nethers suck. I was all set to craft a Vengeance Wrap, but may just hold out for this come Tuesday.
My bad that I missed that reference.

I just took up BS next to LW and after getting 8 nethers for my Dragonmaw I dont think it'll be that hard to get 4 more

It's an excellent cloak for someone who has cleared Kara and is just starting off in SSC\TK though, which is why I think it should be considered like the other cloaks.

Most likely if you're at that level you're running a few heroics while not raiding, so for a cloak you wont upgrade until you've killed KT, it's definetly worth getting those four nethers.
#2800SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
Heh. I have been a bored 70 for quite some time now and while my guild only raids 3 nights per week i still don't find myself ever inside of a heroic. It was painful enough running Heroic Mana Tombs 21 times to get the totem.
#2801SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
Originally Posted by Malan
You're going to need to explain that one.
Yeah I was scratching my head, but since the underlying question was "how much hit do i need" I stopped reading.
#2802SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ghazkull
This is the first time I've tried to find out more about the shaman through theorycraft and that for I find your guide very impressive.

I've always thought you need 250+hit rating for an dw-shaman to increase your max dmg, since you lose too much dmg by missing your target. After reading your guide i can only come to the solution u don't need the 250+hit and now my question is how much +hit I can replace with AP?

My guild is clearing Karazhan and Gruul and we want to start Voidreaver and Magtheridon.


Ghazkull
#2803SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
I hope someone starts auto banning anyone who asks "how much hit do I need" or the other "how much hit can I drop".

This thread is getting out of control, of people who fail to read any of the posts and just ask the most retarded questions, that have been answered on EVERY single page for the last 50 or so.

I can only assume this is down to the thread being linked everywhere for the masses to see, its almost no longer enjoyable to read.
#2804SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
how much +hit I can replace with AP?
All of it, and don't sign your posts.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#2805SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I hope someone starts auto banning anyone who asks "how much hit do I need" or the other "how much hit can I drop".

This thread is getting out of control, of people who fail to read any of the posts and just ask the most retarded questions, that have been answered on EVERY single page for the last 50 or so.

I can only assume this is down to the thread being linked everywhere for the masses to see, its almost no longer enjoyable to read.
Basically I ignore posts that don't have avatars or usernames that I recognize.
#2806SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ghazkull
Then please,please add to the Hit-Itemization an conclusion that you can drop off all +hit items since AP,Crit,AGI ar far more better!
Because from the text itself it wasn't plausible enough to me and for that I am sorry.
#2807SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ghazkull
Then please,please add to the Hit-Itemization an conclusion that you can drop off all +hit items since AP,Crit,AGI ar far more better!
Because from the text itself it wasn't plausible enough to me and for that I am sorry.
From the FIRST POST:

Itemization - Hit Rating
Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. A good explanation of why can be found here. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
#2808SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
As of now there is no "specific" hit rating number you should aim to achieve. Most of us that actively raid SSC, TK, MH, and BT pick up hit rating as we gain gear. My hit has shifted between 100 and 150 several times over the past couple of months as I have picked up new pieces of gear. A lot of shamans have personal preferences as well, and thats basically what it comes down to. Do what your comfortable with. For example, I usually try to maintain 18% hit, which is 9% from talents and 9% from gear.

But as Shabadu pointed out, the information was right there in the first post. People seem dislike taking the time to actually READ the original post. They skim through it and hope that they spot what they want and then post if they don't. Unfortunately now, this post is cluttered with useless posts that do absolutely nothing to further enhancement theorycraft.
#2809SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
I think malan should link Wowwiki's attack table for reference. Some people still think "you can miss an opportunity to crit if you don't have enough hit" or "you can miss an opportunity to proc windfury if you don't have enough hit".
#2810SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Well, you CAN miss a chance to proc WHATEVER if you don't hit -- that's part of the reason HR has a value in the AEP in the first place -- but the simple fact is it doesn't matter if you "miss" every now and then if the rest of your hits are that much better/faster. Besides, with flurry/hast/etc, you're not going to be waiting very long for your next WF or crit.

Incidentally, Yo's simulator has been suggesting a higher priority for hit rating (1.5 AEP at 18% hit with 28% crit). This has only caused me to assume the simulator is flawed
#2811SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
Yo's simulator suggested I value crit at 1.84 the other day, which I found a little odd (19% hit, 28% crit, 1550 AP).

What I PMed the other day was that I would love if certain people could just prune all the random useless posts in this thread.

I don't think most people really embraced what the item weights mean and how to use em, and quite honestly if you can't figure it out then the members here shouldn't be in a position to help you.

But it may be helpful for Malan to just write that there is no preferred amount of hit to run with and that people have success with low and high hit and just use the static items weights or the ones from YO's calc.

Not that most people read the first post, but it may cut down on the spam a bit. I know when I just discovered this thread i read the OP and still wasn't sure whether there was a minimum hit requirement. It was only after I read most of the posts here that I realized that I just needed to trust in the AEP and all would be well.
#2812SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Toots Hepcat: That's true, but I was talking about wf and crit opportunity. Since every proc has a ppm number or internal cooldown it does not really matter if you have 14% hit or 19% as you say. The problem is that some people think they miss a chance to proc wf if they have 5% lower hit (but have the minimum 9% from talents) and they miss a chance to crit if they have lower hit.

About Yo's sim: I noticed that the AEP of the armor penetration is getting higher and higher as you gain more and more of the stat. It's logical but it's controversial with the other stats, the value of which gets worse as you gain more of them. Any toughts of this "problem"?
#2813SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by fangar
But it may be helpful for Malan to just write that there is no preferred amount of hit to run with and that people have success with low and high hit and just use the static items weights or the ones from YO's calc.
I vote he changes it to say that Sebudai has extremely good results with no +hit that isn't on the tiered gear and anybody who disagrees has to beat him in a duel.

That might not be all that practical.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#2814SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mox
I've been trying to decide what combo of RT/Syphon to use (MH/OH etc), after afew raids switching around it's hard to find big differences.

Altho I'm alittle confused about Yo's sim results (using 10000 hours, default boss armour/shock dps), with RT/Syphon (MH/OH) I get 1163 DPS then with Syphon/RT I get 1163.... yeah exactly the same. How does Yo's sim account for wep damage? Guessing it just uses average wep dmg based on DPS x speed?

I guess it basically comes down to Higher MH WF dmg + more OH procs vs Less MH WF dmg + More MH procs. Altho seems like beating a dead horse atm, browsing the thread seems no one can decide :P
#2815SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Unaz
Originally Posted by Nemaa
About Yo's sim: I noticed that the AEP of the armor penetration is getting higher and higher as you gain more and more of the stat. It's logical but it's controversial with the other stats, the value of which gets worse as you gain more of them. Any toughts of this "problem"?
Well, it's not really a problem per se. That's exactly how the stat works. Similiar to resistances, Armor Penetration gets more valuable on a curve as you get more of it. The only thing to do to get a static value out of it is maybe taking the 80th percentile or so of attainable armor penetration against an average armored boss and using that as your static value. Otherwise, the more you have, the better it gets in comparison to other stats. Sure, there's some cloth mobs where you'll be at zero anyway, but that's rare enough to attain that it's not worth considering.

And the difference between a mob at 1% armor and a mob at 0% armor (which that last bit of armor penetration will possibly do) is probably one of the largest dps increases we can get.

Basically, you will just have to re-evaluate more often when you are looking at attaining more (or removing some) armor penetration gear, as your overall AEP will shift varying amounts depending on the other armor penetration available.
#2816SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
Anyone has an idea to make all the Rising Tide/Syphon junk stop? Seems like the crystal clear OP isnt enough for some people and I'm about to bleed from my eyes if I see 1 more post about it.
#2817SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Shawndreya
Originally Posted by vorda
Anyone has an idea to make all the Rising Tide/Syphon junk stop? Seems like the crystal clear OP isnt enough for some people and I'm about to bleed from my eyes if I see 1 more post about it.
So anyways, I was wondering about the differences between RT and syphon.... haha just kidding.

What really gets to me are the people who are like "Thanks for a great post, it's been really helpful. One quick question, is a fast OH better than a slow one?" Or some other post like that pointing out that they are thanking us for a post they didn't even bother completely reading.

Regardless, back to the hit rating topic. We should probably incorportate something into the OP in the form of a raw number to get people to stop asking. Simply saying "We don't need to be near the hit cap" apparently isn't sufficient for them. Perhaps something along the lines of "With 9% talented, you will only need about 100-125 hit rating before it begins to lose AEP value," maybe that will satisfy them.

Last edited by Shawndreya : 09/21/07 at 1:04 PM.
#2818SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3david0925
Thanks for a great post, it's been really helpful. One quick question, is a fast OH better than a slow one???

On a more serious note, 100 hit rating is pretty easy to acheive even when you're stacking AP and Crit and reactively avoiding hit.

On the crit subject, does it make more sense to stop stacking it after reaching theoretical near-permanent flurry? at that point stacking strength/ap seems to be a better option
#2819SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Personally, I try to maintain between 25-30% unbuffed crit.
#2820SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
+ Added selection of flask/battle elixir
+ Added selection of potion
+ Remodelled Hourglass of the Unraveller and Tsunami Talisman procs according to Procs with/without internal cooldowns

__________________
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
#2821SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
For the hit people, I started off with 200 hit rating from gear or something stupid. Then I dropped *all* my hitgems. I did about 200 more dps :P.

__________________
What resulted was an increased power of the rogue class as a whole which was unintended. (c) Eyonix, 12/12/2007 10:28:34 PM.
The next day...
* Preparation now resets the cooldown of Shadowstep and no longer resets the cooldown of Adrenaline Rush. (c) 2.3.2 Patchnotes
#2822SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
The massive influx of stupid questions comes from some jerk posting this link in the shaman forums, which as we know is a rotting cesspool of repeated questions and uninformed instant-gratification types.

WoW Forums -> Enhance Shaman Theorycraft - [ ElitistJerks ]

Worse yet, they're trying to get this stickied. Expect the stupid questions to continue. Maybe we need a new thread for further 'crafting.
#2823SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Samschoice
A bit confussed

OK so i read the windfury section and im still a bit confused about whether I should use a fast OH or just have the OH faster than the MH or would it even be benificial to have both weapons the same speed. I am extremely new to this whole melee dps, cause I have played a resto druid since I started wow. so any tips are well accepted.
-Thanks-

Maniq edit: Greetings everyone from the WoW forums, it is good to see you! Please don't behave like this poster.

-Thanks-
#2824SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Daidalos
LOL great follow up to Azaranth's post. You sure you read the part on WF?

"The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS. "

Last edited by Daidalos : 09/21/07 at 5:11 PM.
#2825SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Shawndreya
Originally Posted by Samschoice
OK so i read the windfury section and im still a bit confused about whether I should use a fast OH or just have the OH faster than the MH or would it even be benificial to have both weapons the same speed. I am extremely new to this whole melee dps, cause I have played a resto druid since I started wow. so any tips are well accepted.
-Thanks-
Read the entire OP, the answers to your questions are in there. Additionally, you might want to read the forum rules as well.
#2826SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Well, in his defense there's been some up and down about having main hand faster than off hand (by like .1) or vica versa or having them the same. It culminated with that headache inspiring series of graphs from Yo! back around page 61 or so.

But I think the most important thing to remember is that even on Yo's graphs it doesn't make THAT much difference, provided both weapons were slow (which the man himself confirmed above as I was typing thise). As in all other cases, SLOWER = better, and SLOWER means at least 2.4, preferably 2.6, and hey sure slower than that is great too.
#2827SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
If two weapons have same dps, slower is always better because WF and Stormstrike damage is not normalized like the instant attacks of the rogues and warriors. Yo, could you add strength and agility input fields next to the BoK buff checkbox so we don't have to add extra ap and crit chance manually?
Thanks for this magnificent simulator, your work is greatly appreciated!
#2828SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nemaa
If two weapons have same dps, slower is always better because WF and Stormstrike damage is not normalized like the instant attacks of the rogues and warriors. Yo, could you add strength and agility input fields next to the BoK buff checkbox so we don't have to add extra ap and crit chance manually?
Thanks for this magnificent simulator, your work is greatly appreciated!
I understand that you are asking for this 2-nd time (implemented your other suggestion about potions), but I am afraid that adding Strength and Agi will be confusing in that users will assume that those stats will be taken into account as a whole not only 10% benefit from BoK. It looks like there is no way to avoid making fully functional paperdoll
#2829SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Yo!
I understand that you are asking for this 2-nd time (implemented your other suggestion about potions)...
Yes, sorry about that, I tought you missed that post of mine. Just a suggestion: STR and AGI input fields would be greyed out if BoK was not checked
#2830SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3everwatch
Question about consumable pots with Unleashed Rage.

Heroic Potion = 70 Str for 15 secon (or 154AP)
Haste Potion = 400 Haste Rating for 15 seconds (or 592 AEP)

Now of course the Haste Potion (using 2.2 numbers) blows away the Heroic Potion for AEP, but I'm not exactly sure if it's better because I don't know if there is a hidden cooldown on UR procs, or if it can happen every hit. Also, I don't understand if more total hits (ie more total proc chances) would cause a greater mana return than would a higher AP total (from Heroic Potion).

So in short, does more attacks with Haste Potion, or does a higher AP total with Heroic Potion net more total mana regeneration while UR is up? I didn't see this covered in the OP, and can't remember it being discussed. If it has been, I apologize.

My current strat is to pop Haste Potions every UR cooldown. With the incoming nerf, I thought I should look over that usage again. Sometimes I need the mana in my pool more than I need the extra dps.
#2831SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Azaranth
When bloodlusting, frenzied, LWdrummed, and with my Dragonstrike proc up, I popped a haste pot and got under 0.9 weapon speeds yesterday. I saw several "back to back" SR procs... so no, there's no internal cooldown on Shamanistic Rage.

Therefore, Haste Pots > Heroic Pots, even during (and especially during) SR.
#2832SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Also Insane Strength Pots>Heroic (although haste is better than both of them)
#2833SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ujai
Maybe I am just dreaming, but isn't it even possible for WF to proc SR twice or even thrice in one swing?

Maybe you should just capslock something like "For the lazy ones: WF/WF slow/slow no hitrating with 9% from talents needed - if you ask nevertheless, you get banned".
#2834SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Aknazer
Originally Posted by Ujai
Maybe I am just dreaming, but isn't it even possible for WF to proc SR twice or even thrice in one swing?

Maybe you should just capslock something like "For the lazy ones: WF/WF slow/slow no hitrating with 9% from talents needed - if you ask nevertheless, you get banned".

I'm almost positive that WF attacks can proc SR. There have been times where I've had so many SR gains floating up from SCT that I couldn't read them all and in the combat log everything is pretty much within the same second.
#2835SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
WF procs SR. you also get the increased AP from the WF return as mana.
#2836SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Nisall
Originally Posted by Stigmata
WF procs SR. you also get the increased AP from the WF return as mana.
Are you sure about that? I have paid attention to it lately, but I did look at it a while back and didn't noticed a difference. I think SR only takes into account the AP your character sheet says. I'll pay attention to it the next time to see what really happens.

EDIT: I just did some testing on my alt


Here you can see that both normal hits and WF generate nearly the same mana return. The difference of 1 is probably due to averages.



With a different AP the mana return is exactly the same.

Last edited by Nisall : 09/22/07 at 7:15 AM. Reason: screenshots
#2837SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
600+ procs of SR, my max AP is about 3900 with all procs and buffs and hyjal battle shout.

The highest proc should be about 585, but I have had some that are in excess of 600, which leads me to believe that the AP from WF is counted. Can't think of any other explanation for it.
#2838SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
The highest proc should be about 585, but I have had some that are in excess of 600, which leads me to believe that the AP from WF is counted. Can't think of any other explanation for it.
Stuff like expose weakness and imp Hunters Mark probably. I also did notice any changes in SR mana return while soloing (when those kind of debuffs are not present).
#2839SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nisall
I was abit slow it seems, but I editted my previous post with screenshots. Now i realise i'm only lvl 67, but i can't imagine WF procs relations to SR suddenly changes when you are raid buffed
#2840SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Bai
Improved Hunters Mark, and a Survival Hunter raid buffed with bookoo Agi adds alot more AP.
Stig has probably spiked to over 4300ap,(not including the +AP from WF attacks.) if he gets Imp Hunters/Expose Weakness.

@Yo. The calculator is great. Keep up the amazing coding. =)
#2841SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kytrarewn
What are your thoughts on this Shaman's build?

The Armory

Given the fact that he's pretty good at keeping up totems and moving them with him, and he never has mana problems due to SR, the gain of searing totem/fire nova totem (we don't raid with a dedicated elemental shaman) might prove very useful.

The lack of 10 yards extra range on totems might prove to be a concern on some fights that we're coming up against shortly (Next three will be Leotheras, Solarian and Vashj), but maybe not as big as I think it is if he stays with melee (if we use him as a dedicated melee DPS on Vashj, for example, taking care of his own add, it could prove to be a big limiting factor).

In any event, he swears that he does significantly more DPS with his current build.

Thoughts?
#2842SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Revdarian
Heya all, just wanted to get a couple folks over at the PTR to help test the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond metagem, as from a bit of testing i just ran, it isn´t working correctly for melee either.

Link:
WoW Forums -> [BUG] Relentless Earthstorm Diamond MELEE
#2843SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3vorda
If he has so much mana he can spam fire nova (only situation in which I see that talent doing anything at all), he should be totem twisting and adding a ton more dps.


He'll also want mental quickness with the upcomming buff.
#2844SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Shabadu
Basically I ignore posts that don't have avatars or usernames that I recognize.
Theres a direct link on the shaman forums to this thread, which is probably why we've been having higher levels of 'hi first post' and 'hows my hit rating?' posts.
#2845SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
+ Added upkeep time for Enchants on Forensic tab
+ Added upkeep time for Trinkets on Forensic tab
+ Added Heroic potion to Buffs tab
I foresee many questions "why the upkeep time is more than ppm suggests".
The answer is - ppms were found with white attacks only, not by shamans in most cases. We have windfury and flurry that increase number of strikes. You may turn off those mechanics..
#2846SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
+ Added upkeep time for Enchants on Forensic tab
+ Added upkeep time for Trinkets on Forensic tab
Thanks for adding this, the only one missing is Dragonstrike.

I foresee many questions "why the upkeep time is more than ppm suggests".
The answer is - ppms were found with white attacks only, not by shamans in most cases. We have windfury and flurry that increase number of strikes. You may turn off those mechanics..
With no other passive haste/haste procs your sim shows DST as having 60% uptime. This is directly contrary to the in game testing on the PTR which showed up time less than 25% with windfury and stormstrike being used. Any uptimes I've mentioned in the past have always included both WF and SS use.
#2847SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis
Thanks for adding this, the only one missing is Dragonstrike.



With no other passive haste/haste procs your sim shows DST as having 60% uptime. This is directly contrary to the in game testing on the PTR which showed up time less than 25% with windfury and stormstrike being used. Any uptimes I've mentioned in the past have always included both WF and SS use.
Use search to find where from I took ppms and how DST was modelled.
Referring to ppms/upkeep that already take flurry/ss/windfurry into account is wrong as it depends on crit too and our class, while ppm mechanics is universal and is believed to be what Blizz uses.
#2848SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
Use search to find where from I took ppms and how DST was modelled.
Referring to ppms/upkeep that already take flurry/ss/windfurry into account is wrong as it depends on crit too and our class, while ppm mechanics is universal and is believed to be what Blizz uses.
I'm assuming you want your sim to be as accurate as possible so when it's producing nonsensical values you should want to fix that right? You've also mentioned the value of crit on procs before but I'm sure you're aware that the slight increase in flurry uptime a few percent of crit will add is not going to double or triple proc uptime.
#2849SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
@Yo, how do you model your Armor reduction?

Do you assume the common %Reduction vs. 70 = (Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)) * 100 formula or a different one?

Do you assume 4400 Armor sundered or unsundered?
#2850SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Apok
@Yo!

Nice simulation but there are 2 Inputs missing to calculate the effect of BOK.

Strength and Agility

Do you plan to add it ?

Last edited by Apok : 09/25/07 at 4:03 PM.
#2851SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Apok
@Yo!

Nice simulation but there are 2 Inputs missing to calculate the effect of BOK.

Strength and Agility

Do you plan to add it ?

Last edited by Apok : 09/25/07 at 5:03 PM.
#2852SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Apok
@Yo!

Nice simulation but there are 2 Inputs missing to calculate the effect of BOK.

Strength and Agility

Do u plan to add it ?
Immediately below the simulator is an FAQ. Please find:

Q: What about BoK?
A: If you are expecting BoK - use fully buffed values with BoK and turn BoK on on Procs&Stuff tab
#2853SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Atren
Reading first post i noticed the counter to the 1.41-1.5 speed not lowering dps is testing based on identical speeds weapon. Problem with that counter is that both weapons go below 1.5 at same time which does not change anything really. Very interesting would be to see something like 1.45/1.55 vs 1.55/1.45 vs 1.55/1.55 comparisons in that matter imo. No random haste effects (including Mongoose if possible) , just flurry (i know its somewhat random :P).
#2854SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Xoya
I know this might take a bit of testing, but I currently have ~10% haste rating and a DST. When I am flurried + DST is procced, I sit at 1.54/1.42 weapon speeds (2.8, 2.6 base). I could try doing some testing on blasted lands mobs but it might be difficult since I have double mongoose as well. Any suggestions for amount of time spent dps'ing to get conclusive results?
#2855SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Is Yo's sim down at the moment?
#2856SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
I can load it just fine . Nevermind the question :P, found it already -_-.

Last edited by Illundai : 09/23/07 at 4:50 AM.
#2857SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Band of the Eternal Champion

Does anyone already have exhalted version of MH ring: Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft

It has a proc, "Chance on hit to increase your attack power by 160 for 10 sec". How often does it proc? Even i am still at least a month away from it myself, would be useful to know how good this ring will be - spend DKP on other rings or not.
#2858SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Does anyone already have exhalted version of MH ring: Band of the Eternal Champion - Items - World of Warcraft

It has a proc, "Chance on hit to increase your attack power by 160 for 10 sec". How often does it proc? Even i am still at least a month away from it myself, would be useful to know how good this ring will be - spend DKP on other rings or not.
I'm still 11k away

I know Forte have exalted members so maybe someone in that guild could tell us.
#2859SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
I might have it next Tuesday, depending on how much the patch improves reputation gain in the zone, but most likely it'll be a week from then. I need like 4850 I think. I'll try to post when I get it if somebody else hasn't by then.
#2860SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I might have it next Tuesday, depending on how much the patch improves reputation gain in the zone, but most likely it'll be a week from then. I need like 4850 I think. I'll try to post when I get it if somebody else hasn't by then.
I was under the impression the rep gain would be the same as it is now, just with the rep split between the trash and bosses rather than just the bosses.

Is the patch coming this week or is that just speculation?
#2861SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Sebudai
I'm pretty sure the rep gain will increase at least slightly. Something around 4k total for a clear without any wipes is what I remember guild mates quoting me.

And yeah it certainly appears that the patch will be coming this Tuesday. They took the test server down recently and CM's seem to have confirmed it'll be out Tuesday. But with this patch, who knows for sure? =p
#2862SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Speaking of reputation rings, I used to be Resto so I have the healing ring, anyone know if you get to change it at Exalted?
#2863SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
On the Procs with/without internal cooldowns thread they say the exalted ring's proc lasts actually 15 seconds and has a 60 second internal cooldown. Maybe they will fix it in tooltip or duration to match them.

Edit: yes it can be swapped for 75 gold at exalted.
#2864SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
TheSorcerer
Where do I find proof on the "WF enchant for both weapons > any combination that uses any other weapon enchant"-thing stated in the summary post?
This guy on a german board says, that any other enchant on the offhand is better than wf, yes he claims that even no enchant on the oh would beat wf. He backs it up with some numbers, but I'm not really into the whole thing and I dont understand his math.
So I'm curious on where those facts from page one come from. For whoever is interested and understands some german, his numbers on wf weapon can be found here: ttp://wowforum.gamona.de/showthread.php?t=94593

Edit: I followed some of the FT links and do believe now, that most of the data on how WF imbue on the offhand affects the total damage outcome comes from simulations, am I correct on that? But where is the flaw on the theory that german dude made, where is his mistake? I suppose some of you guys here are capable of understanding the math and the german language.

Last edited by TheSorcerer : 09/23/07 at 8:57 AM.
#2865SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Atren
I do not understand german, but what is his AP and crit vs Spell damage in his long post? For WF dps and speed are important as well.Also how does he use WF proc rate? Steady over time or each time when cooldown over? And what is it?
#2866SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Astro
The Maelstrom's Fury

The Maelstrom's Fury - Items - World of Warcraft

What do u think about this dagger in offhand AFTER 2.3 patch?
#2867SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Aeolian
Its an Elemental weapon, which would not be something to be used as an Enhancement Shaman.
#2868SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Astro
The Maelstrom's Fury - Items - World of Warcraft

What do u think about this dagger in offhand AFTER 2.3 patch?
Please read the first post in this thread. There is a section specifically devoted to the 2.3 patch and a fast offhand. There are links to 4 posts which discuss this topic as well.
#2869SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Astro
Originally Posted by Mbuzi
Please read the first post in this thread. There is a section specifically devoted to the 2.3 patch and a fast offhand. There are links to 4 posts which discuss this topic as well.
Thats posts not discuss that weapon, but what we know - after 2.3 fast offhand with FT will be as good as slow with WF. I think that weapon in offhand with FT in 2.3 will be better because it will benefit a large bonus for FT and shocks and will not loose much damage because offhand dps halves.

Also I didn't see in thats posts a little feature about better ppm from mongoose with fast offhand because it have MH chance ppm but faster then MH
#2870SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Morelis
I'm assuming you want your sim to be as accurate as possible so when it's producing nonsensical values you should want to fix that right? You've also mentioned the value of crit on procs before but I'm sure you're aware that the slight increase in flurry uptime a few percent of crit will add is not going to double or triple proc uptime.
Sure. Something is wrong with simulation of some of the trinkets - their uptime is not matching what is seen in game. The only reason being - ppm's that I used to model it were recorded by someone in raid environment with buffs and special attacks. I don't know who was that person (roque, shaman, war...?) so it is quite difficult to get "base" ppm of the trinket (that can be achieved by warrior with 2-hander without talents in flurry and without special attacks). So if you point to trinket that is definetly way off (DST) I hope that someone will post its "native" ppm that I will be happy to use. If you are willing to provide uptime - it is possible to get "native" ppm out of it with a series of uptimes corresponding to different crit levels (2 at least).

RE: armor
I use
Mitigation = 11960.0/(Math.max(Armor,0)+11960)
, assuming that boss is level 73. Damage is multiplied by Mitigation after that.
4400 is default value armor that boss has after all penetration affects - you have to change for each fight depending on boss. Why 4400? I saw someone's post that they fought boss with 7000 armor and had 3 debuffs: Sunder (5), Faerie Fire, Curse of Recklessness that brought Armor down to 4400.

__________________
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

Last edited by Yo! : 09/23/07 at 2:33 PM.
#2871SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Using Yo's simulator, I get an AEP value of 2.01 for hit rating. If I uncheck the Dragonspine Trophy box, hit rating becomes 1.77. If I uncheck Dragonstrike, I get 1.87. Without both, 1.62. Seems like the value of +hit is highly correlated to whether you have these two items, something I've always suspected, but couldn't support (switching between my AP set and my +hit set was fairly inconclusive). Has anyone had any similar results?

I realise the PPM aren't exactly right and the results aren't conclusive, so I'm pretty curious if anyone has any thoughts on this ---especially from experience.
#2872SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Flame tongue only receives 10% damage increase from spell damage as far as i remember.

So using that caster weapon in your offhand would mean you would gain about 23 per offhand hit. Really not worth even considering.
#2873SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
If you were dead set on using FT on your offhand, you'd want the fastest weapon possible to get the maximum payoff on your spell damage. Using FT doesn't change the fact spell damage is a really horribly way to add to your enhancement damage.
#2874SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by TheSorcerer
Where do I find proof on the "WF enchant for both weapons > any combination that uses any other weapon enchant"-thing stated in the summary post?
This guy on a german board says, that any other enchant on the offhand is better than wf, yes he claims that even no enchant on the oh would beat wf. He backs it up with some numbers, but I'm not really into the whole thing and I dont understand his math.
So I'm curious on where those facts from page one come from. For whoever is interested and understands some german, his numbers on wf weapon can be found here: ttp://wowforum.gamona.de/showthread.php?t=94593

Edit: I followed some of the FT links and do believe now, that most of the data on how WF imbue on the offhand affects the total damage outcome comes from simulations, am I correct on that? But where is the flaw on the theory that german dude made, where is his mistake? I suppose some of you guys here are capable of understanding the math and the german language.
I can't figure out how to register there, and use an english to german translator, though I'd love to. Apparently no one over there has figured out that your proc rate when dual wielding wf imbued weapons goes up to 36% outside the 3 second cooldown.

Without that increase, yes, other imbues are better. With it, they don't come close (though they will after the talent patch).

Edit - i registered and tried to write a simple response. I have no idea how good the translation is. Also, after posting, I saw that the thread is relatively stale, so it may not matter anyway.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

Last edited by Disquette : 09/23/07 at 3:05 PM.
#2875SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
Sure. Something is wrong with simulation of some of the trinkets - their uptime is not matching what is seen in game. The only reason being - ppm's that I used to model it were recorded by someone in raid environment with buffs and special attacks. I don't know who was that person (roque, shaman, war...?) so it is quite difficult to get "base" ppm of the trinket (that can be achieved by warrior with 2-hander without talents in flurry and without special attacks). So if you point to trinket that is definetly way off (DST) I hope that someone will post its "native" ppm that I will be happy to use. If you are willing to provide uptime - it is possible to get "native" ppm out of it with a series of uptimes corresponding to different crit levels (2 at least).
You may want so check out this post: http://elitistjerks.com/480092-post121.html as well as the thread it's contained in. From skimming it basically testing is showing that things like flurry, passive haste and haste procs do not increase the proc rates on ppm items(other than some pre-bc enchants, including crusader). The only thing that does appear to boost them is just using more special attacks. This should mean flurry uptime has little to no bearing on proc item uptimes.

As for native ppm, nobody really knows since Blizzard doesn't make that information available. Your best bet is probably to just tweak your sim ppm values until it gives results that are close to what is seen in game. If I get some time I'll try just auto-attacking for an extended period of time to record some ppms that are unaffected by special attacks.

On an unrelated note I noticed something strange in the sim, it takes +9 hit to cap out WF on misses which is fairly close to the current thinking on +3 mobs. It only takes +5 to cap out Stormstrike though, is there a reason for this?
#1726SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
As for the correctness of models/sims. As previously stated my model is correct with a 5% error margin. Depending on gear and buffs the results of fights against the blasted lands mobs are around 5% higher than my model, but that is because you don't miss that mob at all etc.
Not sure how/why I missed this earlier. Nice job on that TH :-)
#1727SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Toots Hepcat
Malan et al:

I believe gear levels -- when you're only talking about gear -- should always be stated unbuffed, even if sims are run with buffs considered. Talking about buffed gear is what leads to the "How do U get 2xxx AP" questions; a newcomer never knows if those numbers only include raid buffs (and which buffs) or buffs/food/some wierd combination of procs. Besides, buffs at the Kara and heroic level are hard to predict. You'll often have a warrior or a feral druid but rarely both, and a grab bag of paladin buffs.

My gear had evolved a lot since I came up to 70 with 1.8s weapons, 900 AP, 0 HR and nearly 30% crit. When I read about hit tables, I revised my gear to have 1.6s weapons, 1000 AP, 110 HR, and about 22% crit and was shocked to see my damage go down. Revising my gear AGAIN thanks to the theorycraft (and a few pieces of Kara gear), I'm now at 1200 AP, 135 HR and 26% crit and doing top five dps in raids.

I've actually been considering writing up a Wowwiki page on preparing an endgame shaman for maximum effectiveness in heroics and Karazhan: what quests to do, what instances to run and what rep to farm. There's some surprisingly good stuff to be had with minimal effort...last night I did a pair of easy group quests in Netherstorm and walked out with 2 rings with the same AEP as the Kara exalted ring.

Suggestion: at this gear level, the AEP for slots may be lower than it is for 25 man gear. It seems silly to socket epic gems in a pair of leggings that will surely be replaced within the month; a waste of gold which could be invested in 'chants, potions, primals and crafting better gear.

Finally, a question: how much emphasis should be placed on weapon DPS when plotting upgrades, e.g. how much AEP loss is an additional 10 dps on worth? MH vs OH? Forgive me if it's been discussed to death, I've had bad luck picking keywords on searches w/r to this issue.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 08/22/07 at 4:53 PM.
#1728SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Finally, a question: how much emphasis should be placed on weapon DPS when plotting upgrades, e.g. how much AEP loss is an additional 10 dps on worth? MH vs OH? Forgive me if it's been discussed to death, I've had bad luck picking keywords on searches w/r to this issue.
While I don't know the exact answer to this, consider that in some sim runs, AP had a fairly constant 1AP = 0.25 dps effect.

I will not at all stand behind that comment, because:

a) it's from memory
b) the sim was a bit old
c) i never checked it against raising the weapon damage to see how much it'd take to get to the same dps.


Since tornhoof's model is accurate within 5% of game data, he should be able to tell you better than anyone else how much it's worth.
#1729SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by everwatch
I have a question about the concept of using Item Levels for comparisons against AP Equivalency formulas. Does anyone know how Blizzard spends the item budget? Meaning how many points = Stamina, Armor, Int, AP, etc...? If so you could easily deduct those point from the Ilvl budget and then compare the dps ilvl points vs. a AEP right? I mean, I have no idea how efficiently Blizz spends the points, or if it would match up. But it seems to me that you could form a baseline for comparison.
The link I posted to wowwiki would've answered it for you but anyway.
Confirmed by a presentation at Blizzcon: Blizzard uses a formula to calculate item level from the items stats. The real formula as far as I know is only known by Blizzard.

Rather then deducting Enhancer will sum those costs but only for certain stats (same ones used in the AEP models pretty much) and come up with how many Itemization Points was spent into "usefull" stats and then show it in tooltips. It's not true Itemization Points but when comparing two numbers for the same slot they are atleast relative to eachother assuming the reverse-engineering of the formula is correct .

Not sure how you mean you would compare those points with AEP?
Edit: I should refresh the page before posting when I hit reply and go watch Tintin with the daughter since Yo! allready answered you.
#1730SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Yo!
It is not a Cobb-Douglas multiplicative function because of cross-dependencies such as Disquette posted and special game mechanics. Try to fit UR upkeep time and flurry into the formula and do not forget that you can not use averages - you need to use their specific random distribution instead, because of Mean of f(x,y) is not equal f(Mx,My). Non static speed is hardest to include probably alongside with ppm items with hidden cooldowns. This is something that Tornhoof is doing and he is stuck with these effects as far as I know. However, if You manage to get the formula - that would be godly.
Well, its not supposed to precisely describe reality, but to approximate it. Same thing could be said about the Gross Domestic Product, and yet Robert Solow won a nobel prize in economics for that (and, to be honest, was precisely my inspiration here.)

In any case, and in reply to Tornhoof's thoughtful post:
where the data comes from is of secondary importance, and it might well be that it is easier to simply pick out numbers from your excellent model. My point was precisely that it is possible, using regression, to come to a non linear that might not be extremely precise but will be close enough so that people can plug in their current values and figure out for themselves what marginal improvement to their gear will yield the best dps increase without having to run an enourmous amount of sims. But enough on my part. Im going to play around with your model and Tristan's (again, many thanks) addon and come back (time permitting, as my job is time consuming - perhaps I will convince the dean that I should teach a class on WoW and then he will give me all the resources and RAs to run with this) with something more concrete.
#1731SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I believe gear levels -- when you're only talking about gear -- should always be stated unbuffed, even if sims are run with buffs considered.
Have to say I agree very much with this. Trying to find my buffed values outside of a raid usually means I have to beg every class in Shattrath to buff me no I don't raid much atm.

Stating values as totally unbuffed and then adding the appropriate buffs in the simulation would be much much better in my opinion.
#1732SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo!
This is something that Tornhoof is doing and he is stuck with these effects as far as I know. However, if You manage to get the formula - that would be godly.
Yeh closed form flurry expressions are the problem, the only way to properly do this is imho a higher order markov chain for a full weapon model. UR is not that great a factor, we're talking 99%+ uptime anyway. Flurry uptime difference is larger, my current model has an error margin for flurry of 0-10%, highly dependent on gear and procs.
#1733SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Diogo
Well, its not supposed to precisely describe reality, but to approximate it. Same thing could be said about the Gross Domestic Product, and yet Robert Solow won a nobel prize in economics for that (and, to be honest, was precisely my inspiration here.)

where the data comes from is of secondary importance, and it might well be that it is easier to simply pick out numbers from your excellent model
There is some serious flaw in your idea from the start.
Building a model from data generated by another model will never give you the better model. At best you are going to replicate Toornhoof's formula with such aproach.
You can build better model by combining better math skills and correctly parsed in-game data. If you are going to research "How Cobb-Douglas multiplicative function can help simulating Shaman's DPS function" I have to discourage you - Toornhoof's formula is better from the start because it is not limited to that specific class of functions. And you won't get Noble Prize - no economy here, only math.

Last edited by Yo! : 08/22/07 at 6:36 PM.
#1734SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Boro
A quick question on Totems and groups and although I have been a reader of this thread and others, I am not sure of the answer to this question. Even in practice it seems I can see little difference. So I thought I would try and get some opinions of readers of this thread:

Scenario is:

In our guild we normally have what I would call a pretty standard Rogue/DPS Warrior mix; with me of course. However, occasionally I may find myself in a group with two rogues (a Swords and Dagger Rogue) and two Hunters.

My gut instinct tells me Windfury will still give an overall higher DPS for the group. But there is an argument that Grace of Air which would benefit all the group may be better. I worry sometimes that Hunters will be out of range of the Agility totem if I drop it anyway, especially on bosses when I am close to a Boss (max range for them is 36 I believe).

The links on Page 1 show examples for all but Hunters(or they did may have changed now).

Any thoughts or suggestions as to which way I should go?

Last edited by Boro : 08/22/07 at 7:15 PM.
#1735SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Beroll
Since I really don't like comparing items withouth taking stamina and/or intellect into account what do you guys think about the ratings I use for comparing items?

Sta = 0.75
Int = 0.25
Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.1
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.13
HR = 0.25

The question is not if you like my weights for stamina and intellect, that's up to you. For me stamina and intellect are very important. You just want a big amount of HP for most Bosses in BT.
The question is if there's something wrong in my maths or if my stats are correct as long as I like them. Sorry for my english, I hope you understand what I'm asking for.

Thanks in advance.
#1736SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Chunk
syphon > wicked edge?
#1737SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3rava
Originally Posted by Boro
A quick question on Totems and groups and although I have been a reader of this thread and others, I am not sure of the answer to this question. Even in practice it seems I can see little difference. So I thought I would try and get some opinions of readers of this thread:

Scenario is:

In our guild we normally have what I would call a pretty standard Rogue/DPS Warrior mix; with me of course. However, occasionally I may find myself in a group with two rogues (a Swords and Dagger Rogue) and two Hunters.

My gut instinct tells me Windfury will still give an overall higher DPS for the group. But there is an argument that Grace of Air which would benefit all the group may be better. I worry sometimes that Hunters will be out of range of the Agility totem if I drop it anyway, especially on bosses when I am close to a Boss (max range for them is 36 I believe).

The links on Page 1 show examples for all but Hunters(or they did may have changed now).

Any thoughts or suggestions as to which way I should go?
/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
#1738SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Disquette
Originally Posted by Diogo
Im going to play around with your model and Tristan's (again, many thanks) addon and come back (time permitting, as my job is time consuming - perhaps I will convince the dean that I should teach a class on WoW and then he will give me all the resources and RAs to run with this) with something more concrete.
I believe the key here, Diogo, is to make people take ownership of their own projects. If you give people students the freedom and plant the seed, they'll do it for a term project.

"Everyone needs to complete a real-life project involving the concepts learned in this class by the end of the semester. If you need help finding a topic, see me in office hours. Please pick something that interests you! Your project will be much more enjoyable for you. I've heard from others that aspects of this class are relevant in fields such as equity valuations, genetics, traffic patterns - even video games such as World of Warcraft. Again, see me if you need help picking out a project - I'm here to help"

yeah... something like that ;-)
#1739SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Rob
I'll try running that mod tomorrow -- I don't know if I can hold back shocking, could we run a command-line utility to remove all lines with "Shock" in them to fix the problem?

I also don't know how far the Cobb-Douglas function will take us, but if it can be used to get within 5% just like the sims can, that would be a step forward. It's good to see another Econ mind here, but just remember that Solow didn't win a Nobel because his models were super-accurate predictors of economic growth (for example, steady-state growth = 0), but because they contributed to the understanding of economic growth. In this case we may end up with a similar situation.
Originally Posted by Beroll
Sta = 0.75
Int = 0.25
Str = 1.1
Agi = 1.1
AP = 0.5
CR = 1.13
HR = 0.25
HR way undervalued unless you are extremely close to cap and adding an item's worth of hit would cap you or something.

Last edited by Rob : 08/22/07 at 9:46 PM.
#1740SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Originally Posted by Boro

In our guild we normally have what I would call a pretty standard Rogue/DPS Warrior mix; with me of course. However, occasionally I may find myself in a group with two rogues (a Swords and Dagger Rogue) and two Hunters.
If you're in a group with 2 hunters and yourself, drop GoA. At that point WF for 2 rogues is probably not going to beat out GoA for 3 people. On the other hand, if your hunters are lousy at their class I'd drop WF anyways.
#2901SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3berg
I tend to agree that having secondary points in resto will still be the best (especially for totem twisting.) That said I guess it is a good thing that we are atleast talking about elemental. Though I still think any talk of Elemental devastation is absurd.

One thing I think that is being missed though is the following. Everyone is thinking purely offensively because currently that is all an enhancement shaman is. If the proposed changes go in, we will all be sitting at 700-1000 dam/healing and a quick swap to a healing weapon and healing shield will put that in the 1200+ healing range. Still not a raid healer by any means but miles ahead of where we were. The largest benefit will easily be to our healing and then searing totem and healing stream totem.

The boost to shocks will be nice but realistically our + damage is still getting butchered by the damage coefficient and cooldowns on shocks.

It is going to be pretty exciting. I have access to a rogue and already consider my shaman the best mob grinding class in the game. Give me big healing stream, and big healing waves and 30% damage reduction...
#2902SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Yo!
No, it depends on Boss' level only. From wowwiki:
Original post - Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki
Yes the formula is for incoming damage, so you need to calculate the armor as being a level 73 boss and you're fighting level 70 enemies.

Your armor is more effective against lower level enemies obviously.

Example:

Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 67 mob, the reduction is 68.6%.
Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 70 mob, the reduction is 65.5%
Your tank has 20k armor, he's fighting a lvl 73 mob, the reduction is 62.6%

Currently you're calculating the reduction as if the boss is getting hit by same-level enemies (aka lvl 73 enh shaman), that is obviously wrong.
#2903SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3panny
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I find living without healing focus very difficult. Elemental or Enhance, it's the real dealbreaker for me. Another thing to consider about resto vs elemental, is that Nature's guidance is actually 6 points of hit: 3% melee and 3% spell. I won't consider speccing elemental secondary until I never want to pvp or farm on my shaman again.
The spell hit is really nice (especially since it's essentially free) and when I specced out of Healing Focus, getting a few adds was horrible when I was playing solo.

I will try an Ele minor once 2.3 goes through though. The added shock damage is nice, but I'm especially curious about how the extra spell damage will play with Improved Fire Totems (does anyone know if this affects Greater Fire Elemental?). 10% less elemental damage will be great for both raids and pvp.
#2904SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Malan
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory
#2905SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
According to the WoW shaman forums, 30/31 is the new raiding paradigm according to shaman with a grand total of 250 Neutral Rep for Violet Eye.
The Armory
Haha nice.
#2906SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
I apologize if this has been covered earlier in the thread, but it's not in the OP.


How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose?

With Flurry alone My attack speed with Dragonmaw is 2.08.

Maybe it's the wording of the tooltip that's confusing me, but in my world, increasing the attack speed by 30% would mean an attack speed of

2.70*0.7 = 1.89.

2.08/2.70 = ~.77

which brings me to the question, does the Haste from flurry diminish like the haste from haste rating as your progress from 60 to 70? Does the same degradation affect Bloodlust?

With Flurry and Bloodlust, my attack speed drops to 1.60.

2.08*.07 = ~1.46

1.6/2.08 = ~.77

throwing Abacus of Violent Odds in the mix,

260 Haste Rating(pre 2.2) = 24.73% haste.

That alone brings me down to 2.18 attack speed

2.70*0.7527 = 2.03

All together, I get down to 1.28 attack speed.

1.60*0.7527 = 1.2

So my question is: how do these effects apply, and in what order?
#2907SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
How does Haste Rating Stack with Flurry stack with Bloodlust stack with Mongoose?
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/10.52)))
#2908SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/10.52)))

So...

2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed?

>>>

2.7/ (1.003*1.003*1.45) = 1.85

Maybe I fail at math, it's been a long time since college.

What's that 10.52 from?
#2909SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.

2.7/ ((1+(0.3/100)*(1+(0.3/100)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52))) = Hasted Weapon speed?
You're actually doing the 30/100 part of converting Flurry to decimal form already by plugging it in as .3. You should have

2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52)))

Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly.
#2910SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
10.52 is the current haste rating conversion to 1% haste. That will change with the next patch.


You're actually doing the 30/100 part of converting Flurry to decimal form already by plugging it in as .3. You should have

2.7/ ((1+(0.3)*(1+(0.3)*(1+(((212+260)/100)/10.52)))

Plus 2% haste from each mongoose proc, if you really want to get silly.


oooo.

ok.

so, 1.1, which is what I get with all the buffs.

Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%?
#2911SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Abrax
What's that 10.52 from?
It's the amount of haste rating it takes for a level 70 character to have a 1% haste increase on melee attacks.
#2912SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Abrax
Ok, so why does 30% haste from flurry really only come out as 23%?
What? If you're talking about its actual effect on your swing time (reducing it by 23%), consider that you can get over 100% haste. What happens at 101% haste as you're considering it? Negative swing time?
#2913SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Khlysti
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
#2914SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3◊ Kasi
I would love to get points in healing focus as an elemental shaman, but there is so much less wiggle room in an elemental spec then there is in enhancement. If I take more than 1 point in focus, it means losing totem range, spell hit or spell crit. All of which to me are pretty big no nos. If I could get full focus with only sacrificing 1 or maybe 2 points, than it might be plausible. but not when it means sacrificing 4 points.
#2915SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Vim
When applying AEP values to items, is there a way to weigh the value of Stam as well, or is it more of a personal preferance? Since you can easily compare strength to AP, for stam it seems to me its like comparing apples to oranges since increasing stam does not impact DPS directly, but a "dead shaman does no DPS". Some items that score high on AEP are low, or have nil stam which is less appealing to melee IMO. If there is no way to weigh it directly, is there a minimum HP suggestion for BT/Hyjal?

Last edited by Vim : 09/24/07 at 5:10 PM.
#2916SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Deck
Hello fellow Enhancers!

First time poster, long time reader (as much as possible anyway!).

I am currently applying for a pretty serious raiding guild on Executus and have found that my inappropriate "upgrades" have ended up hurting my overall DPS for end game raids. The main issue I have always had is judging which stats actually translate into the highest overall DPS gains. Anyway, whoever broke down the AEP values, thank you so much, it has helped me tremendously and with the addition of the Pawn mod, it's easy mode now on choosing upgrades.

However, on the subject of Pawn strings, I think I may found an error with the first post, which states:

Sample Pawn string to use (uses Pater and Tornhoof's AEP values):

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1 )

Technically - shouldn't the socket values be as follows?

RedSocket = 17.6 (same) 8 x 2.2 - 17.6
BlueSocket = 8.8 (+4 str - +6 stam gem) 4 x 2.2 = 8.8
YellowSocket = 16.8 (+4 str - +4 crit gem) 4 x 2.2 + 4 x 2 = 16.8

Maybe I am missing something; some additional clarity would be welcomed. Thank you.
#2917SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Toots Hepcat
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.

In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6

Value of various exceptions can be calculated pretty easy...f'rexample, check out my leggings...i'm missing about 3.2 AEP by using two +8 crit rating gems, but the +8 AP offsets that. And I'm losing a handful of AEP from the bracers and gloves, a tradeoff made to gain a teeny bit of stamina (which obviously i need).
#2918SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Deck
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Deck -- you are missing something, namely that you don't need to match colors in gem slots UNLESS you really want the socket bonus or need a certain setup for meta gems.

In most cases, you'll get more benefit out of slotting Bold Livings everywhere, which have an AEP of 17.6
Oh duh! Jesus, how stupid on my part! That should have been blatantly obvious. Thanks for the clarification Toots.
#2919SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Ahh, the Stamina thing.

Strictly speaking, the AEP of stamina is 0, because it does not contribute directly to DPS. If you can guarantee you'll never get hit, you don't need any extra health -- and if you're going to get one shot anyway, it doesn't matter what your health was before it happened. Many fights definitely have a minimum value due to AoE or cleave effects, which change depending on your raid makeup. If you group with two warriors, for example, you can effectively shave 100 +STM off your gear thanks to commanding shout.

Stamina shouldn't be in the AEP numbers, but enhancers should pick up stamina gear whenever possible. That way we can stack just enough of it to form a baseline contoured to the fight and the group, and have the rest of our gear devoted to that which maximizes our DPS.

I currently maintain two sets of DPS gear: one with a health goal of 6500 (which is a nice buffer for those bosses that have 3000 damage AoE pulses), and my high DPS set with no lower limit (and thus around 5500 health). As I push into higher tiers of raiding, I expect to push up my "survival" set's baseline to match the tougher raid bosses.

I think all of this applies to int as well. I currently have no problems with mana, but I will if I keep trading hunter/shaman/druid gear for rogue leathers.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/24/07 at 5:40 PM.
#2920SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Khlysti
30% haste means you get 30% more attacks in any unit of time, not that your swing time goes down by 30%.
Thanks, that's what I needed to know.
#2921SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3djaehns
Hi Shaman friends,

first of all a big THANK YOU to all of you guys. I've learned so much about my char by goings through this whole post.

But at the moment I've still one question. A few days ago, I had a discussion with my raidleader about the setup of the melee group. We had 2 rogues, 1 offwarrior and me.

The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group.

Are there any calculations? Especially in connection with all my melee buff?
or is it a really stupid question and the answer is very easy?

thx

Miuntar
#2922SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Vim
Originally Posted by djaehns
thx

Miuntar

Uh oh
#2923SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Illundai
Bah, for quite a while I was Restoration, so I was a bit lagging behind in theorycraft about Enhancement. I didn't think much of it, but I've always socketed my gear for a LOT of crit. I checked just now and I have 32% crit unbuffed, but only 1452 AP. I started looking into my personal performance a little and I remain unsatisfied for now, really. Would my performance improve by regemming anything of my gear? I know for a fact Crit is nice, but maybe I overdid it a little. I'm not too sure anymore :E.

The Armory

Any suggestions on whether I should keep on going for this approach or not? Should I re-evaluate my sockets and value Strength a lot higher then what I do now? It's not like I completely ignored Strength, I just have a damn lot more crit :P.
I know the OP states I should gem yellow with 4 str 4 crit, but I kindly ignored that for quite a while since in the tier 5 region of gear I was in, there was quite a lot of AP/Str on the items already. Now that I've gotten some tier 6 quality gear I seem to be dropping in attack power every day :/
#2924SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• Juice
Originally Posted by djaehns
The question: Is it better to take a BM hunter (3% more damage) or a feral druid to optimize the DPS output of this group.
So you're asking which is better: 3% increased damage or 5% increased damage?
#2925SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3• fangar
To Illundi.

Well +8 crit is 16 AEP and 8 Str is 17.6 AEP (with BOK). So from a pure min max perspective +8 Str is just better. I have always viewed 30% crit as a good breakpoint, but honestly I just go with whatever is the highest AEP return.
#2926SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ fangar
To Illundi.

Well +8 crit is 16 AEP and 8 Str is 17.6 AEP (with BOK). So from a pure min max perspective +8 Str is just better. I have always viewed 30% crit as a good breakpoint, but honestly I just go with whatever is the highest AEP return.
#2927SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Paradox
Hey again guys.

I currently have Void Reaver Greaves, and Bloodsea Brigands Vest, T5 Gloves, T4 Helm and Shoulders.

From what I can tell, the Void Reaver Greaves and Bloodsea vest are better than the T5 Chest and Legs... but I need to replace one of them if I want the T5 4 peice set bonus... my question is, is it worth it? Is the T5-4peice worth it in itself? Is the upgrade from T4 (losing the 2-peice bonus) worth the stats on the T5?
#2928SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Multane
Originally Posted by Juice
So you're asking which is better: 3% increased damage or 5% increased damage?
Not really.

The higher your crit %age, the lower the returns from adding more crit. That 5% crit Aura may very well end up as a <3% increase to an individuals DPS.

That said: A Feral should get in the group in this case. The hunter's buff may be slightly better, but the hunter doesnt benefit from the rest of the groups buffs. The Feral has way more synergy.
#2929SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nemaa
Illundai: Maybe a sim could help you finding out if it's better to trade some crit to ap.

My problem is that we lack red epic gems, because it's the most wanted one. We made a queue for [Crimson Spinel]s and it's like 2-3 full BT clears till I could get mine so I decided to use orange ones for 5STR 5Crit instead of 10STR. I wish Blizzard implemented some kind of gem trades with npcs.
#2930SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Multane
Not really.

The higher your crit %age, the lower the returns from adding more crit. That 5% crit Aura may very well end up as a <3% increase to an individuals DPS.
Care to back this up?

Way my feeble mind computes it, the returns from adding 5% crit would be 5% per melee member up to the crit cap (in which every hit is a crit), no matter what your previous crit percentage was.

Are you guys crit capped? If so, let me just say I'm envious, I rarely even break 40% crit!

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 09/24/07 at 8:36 PM.
#2931SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3seminarca
5% crit only increases your overall damage output by 5% if you're sitting on 0% crit to begin with. Suppose you hit something 100 times for 1 dmg per swing, that's (100 * 1) = 100 dmg total at 0% crit. If you now add 5% crit, you do (95 * 1) + (5 * 2) = 105 total damage for a 105/100 = 5% increase in damage.

If your base crit is 30% you do (70 * 1) + (30 * 2) = 130 total damage. Adding 5% crit changes your damage to (65 * 1) + (35 * 2) = 135, that's only a 135/130 = 3.846% increase in damage.

But it's not quite as simple as that, things like Flurry, on crit procs (Tsunami, Hourglass etc) and no doubt other stuff I'm likely forgetting will complicate it a lot more than that. For classes other than Shaman, crit might have other implications too (e.g. Lethality for Rogues etc).
#2932SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3♦ Rob
5% crit converts 5% of your hits into crits.

Since ~30% of your hits were already crits, this means that you are not gaining 5% of your total damage. The actual damage gained is approximately (100-30)% * 5% = 70% x 5% = 3.5%.
#2933SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nigil
I was just thinking about how you could work with the 3 second cooldown on windfury and I came up with the idea of having your offhand swinging at different timing with 2 same speed weapons. I tested it this morning and if you equip an offhand weapon while you are swinging with the main hand it starts its own swing timer rather then resetting the mh so.... here is what I have come up with so far, this is without flurry but I would assume it would be possible to figure that into it as well. Here is a chart I have made to demonstrate using this with the 2.6 speed gladiator weapons. Over 30 seconds you get an extra windfury proc in the best case scenario.
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/5...occhartmd8.png

im not sure if it would be possible to write a mod to either do this or tell you when to equip a weapon to make the swing cycle perfect but its just a thought, neither storm strikes nor shocks seem to reset the swing timers so that’s good, im not sure about totems though and any interruption would reset them both to hitting at the same time.
#2934SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Oscarvil
I just did these calculations about this after reading that post.

First case: 0% unbuffed crit, damage should look like

100% * 1 + 0% * 2 = 1 total damage

Buffed with LotP

95% * 1 + 5% * 2 = 1.05 total damage, a 5% increase.

Second case: 95% unbuffed crit, damage should look like

5% * 1 + 95% * 2 = 1.95 total damage

Buffed with LotP

0% * 1 + 100% * 2 = 2 total damage, percentage increase of only 2.6%

The break point of a 3% damage increase is 2/3 crit (66.666%), if you are over this the 3% damage increase is better for you, under this the 5% crit is. I think it is safe to say at current levels of itemisation that a druid is superior to a hunter in a melee group from a synergistic point of view.

Seems like I'm a bit slow off the mark, and I also neglect class mechanics but I hope it was a clear demonstration.
#2935SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0panny
Also, I don't think FI would have 100% uptime like LotP. Give the hunters their own groups.
#2936SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
drats
Originally Posted by Paradox
Is the upgrade from T4 (losing the 2-peice bonus) worth the stats on the T5?
4p T5 is 5% increase to flurry, which is definitely better. Until you pick up all your pieces, use the AEP values in the OP to figure out when it's good to upgrade an item.

Last edited by drats : 09/25/07 at 3:48 AM. Reason: i before e, even in the morning
#2937SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Tristan
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Yes the formula is for incoming damage, so you need to calculate the armor as being a level 73 boss and you're fighting level 70 enemies.
You are both correct in a way, what confuses me in your post was that you brought up level 73 since it in this case is unrelated, the formula (atleast according to wowwiki) is:
%Reduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Enemy_Level)) * 100
As Yo! said the only thing that matters is the enemies level when calculating reduction. What he did wrong is that he took the boss as the enemy which arguably is natural, but in this case the boss is who we want to calculate reduction for and the "enemy" for which we want to calculate his reduction is the Shaman, so like Tornhoof said the correct value to use is 10557.5 assuming boss mitigation works like player mitigation.

Best bet would probably be to use the entire formula above but since we want to calculate how much mitigation the boss get when the shaman is hitting him I'd alter it to something like this for clarity in the code:
%BossReduction = (Armor / (Armor - 22167.5 + 467.5 * Player_Level)) * 100

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#2938SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0xereva
Don't think it's mentioned, but i think [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (coming next patch (2.2)) will be a pretty good chestpiece for an enhancement shaman? (using [Thick Netherscale Breastplate] now and don't have acces to after-kara items). You think i should upgrade?
#2939SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
I don't want to be an asshole, but did you really need to ask whether Shadowprowler's would be better then Netherscale? Its an upgrade no matter how you socket it, whether your follow the gem types or put all 8str gems or whatever it may be you decide to do.
#2940SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0sarf
Originally Posted by xereva
Don't think it's mentioned, but i think [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (coming next patch (2.2)) will be a pretty good chestpiece for an enhancement shaman? (using [Thick Netherscale Breastplate] now and don't have acces to after-kara items). You think i should upgrade?
Yes, as long as you slot it up with good gems, I think it should be a good DPS upgrade (especially if you get BoK, as str is affected whereas AP is not). Do note that you will lose some sta and int, though.

Really, though, just measure it from the perspective of your own raiding group (if you have a regular one) or just use someone else's values. Personally, I see the breastplate as better for Hunters due to stat/AP weights... but everyone knows that all items are Hunter-items, right?
#2941SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
[Shadowprowler's Chestguard]
<br />
32 \text { strength} \times 2.2 + 40 \text {agility} \times 2 + 8 \text {hit rating} \times 1.4 + 8 \text {socket} \times 2.2 \times 3 = 214.4 \text {AEP}<br />

[Cloak of Darkness]
<br />
23 \text { strength} \times 2.2 + 24 \text {crit rating} \times 2 + 8 \text {socket} \times 2.2 = 116.2 \text {AEP}<br />

Both items are amazingly good.

By comparison, the Bloodsea Brigand chest is 254.6, the Ranger General chest is 240.8 and the T5 chest is 233.6.
For cloaks, the Vengeance Wrap is 115.6, the Razor-Scale Battlecloak is 118.6.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.

Last edited by Malan : 09/25/07 at 9:54 AM.
#2942SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Atren
Merciless Gladiator's Linked Armor - Items - World of Warcraft is not bad either, altough not upto the Shadowprowler i guess.
#2943SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dukanull
Anyone know if the AP-> spell damage thing made it into the patch or no?

__________________
Vindication-wow.com
#2944SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nisall
Isn't that for patch 2.3?

EDIT: Just checked the 1st post. It should indeed come in the 2.3 patch
#2945SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Xochi
I believe those changes were slated for patch 2.3 or after.
#2946SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shawndreya
Ya, that is 2.3 that we get the spell damage and shamanistic focus. This patch I believe the only impacting thing to enhancement shamans is the haste changes.
#2947SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Atren
Merciless Gladiator's Linked Armor - Items - World of Warcraft is not bad either, altough not upto the Shadowprowler i guess.
Resilience and the Mp5 drag down the item budget. It might be a good item, but for its Ilvl its wasting points.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2948SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Toots Hepcat
Hey -- due to the haste nerf, will [Black Planar Edge] now outshine [Dragonmaw] ?

I have just picked up blacksmithing, and would like to know if I should alter my primal farming plans. (PS: yes, leveling blacksmithing was very expensive, but I could not imagine going through another x-pac as a tailor)

Edit: Hey what do you know, this debate's already been had on the FP. I'm kind of confused by the maths, but Dragonstrike's AEP is quoted as 98 and I can only assume its "little brothers" are the same. So, another simple minded Toots Hepcat post.
#2949SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Sweet jesus are you really asking that?

Edit in response to your edit - keep in mind that the AEP values for those weapons are *only* for the stats (not the proc I think? It might have been included, I'd have to re-read the wording on that section). Not a smith myself so I've never bothered looking at those weapons, I'd assume they have the same DPS/min/max values so if you're an orc, take the axe, if not, take the mace. Easy.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.

Last edited by Malan : 09/25/07 at 1:26 PM.
#2950SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shawndreya
Haha, well Malan, we wouldn't need threads like these at all if there weren't people who needed educating.

Back on topic, yes [Dragonmaw] is a better choice than [Black Planar Edge] even after the haste changes.
#2951SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
This is a complete digression and entirely OT, but then again it break up the monotiny of seeing the same questions asked 60 times. The sad thing is now they are being answered vs the happy rude response usually given of "go look it up".

Shawndreya you do know that a Riding Crop and Skybreaker Whip do not stack, right?

Was bored and trolling through armory profiles and noticed that.
#2952SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shawndreya
Originally Posted by fangar
This is a complete digression and entirely OT, but then again it break up the monotiny of seeing the same questions asked 60 times. The sad thing is now they are being answered vs the happy rude response usually given of "go look it up".

Shawndreya you do know that a Riding Crop and Skybreaker Whip do not stack, right?

Was bored and trolling through armory profiles and noticed that.
Yes I am aware of that, but I'm too lazy to redo my itemrack sets.
#2953SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
darist
I had heard that [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] was bugged on the PTR, in that the effect was additive instead of multiplicative, and the 3% bonus only applied to specials. Has that made it into the patch? Asking because I had been pondering leveling Engineering for [Surestrike Goggles v2.0], but if the RED has been nerfed then I might as well just stick with [Malefic Mask of the Shadows]. Sorry if this has been answered already.

[edit] Also, assuming no change to the RED, how would you equate it in terms of AEP? I read an earlier post detailing that the RED alone accounted for a 1.788% increase in Malan's damage, or a 21 DPS increase. I'd guess this would be kind of a tough calculation to make, but it would be pretty awesome if a rough AEP value could be assigned to the RED, perhaps working off your crit rating. [/edit]

Last edited by darist : 09/25/07 at 2:32 PM.
#2954SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Surestrike is a clear upgrade regardless of whether or not the meta works.

That said, I'd expect them to fix it if it's broken.
#2955SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0darist
Yeah, I just did the math again and realized that not even accounting for the RED the Engi helm is better. When I did the AEP calcs on a bunch of helms available to me at my progression level (Kara/Gruul's) I must have forgotten to account for the blue gem, the agility from the RED, and the socket bonus for this one. I'm actually not even sure if I'll get the opportunity to go Enhance for raids (guild short on healers and I'm the best geared atm, now that our premiere Paladin and Priest quit the game) any time soon, but I'm building up a set anyway. Guess it's time to level Engi in my spare time. Thanks for the response.
#2956SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Kuosi
engi goggles are rly good choice if u got a profession slot to spare, I spent like 500g on 1-350skill + goggles on my rogue, took less than a day.
#2957SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0slant
Originally Posted by Shawndreya
Back on topic, yes [Dragonmaw] is a better choice than [Black Planar Edge] even after the haste changes.
That's the common knowledge, but it depends on Dragonmaw's PPM. I've never been able to find any solid verified information on it. I've seen 1PPM thrown around a lot, so assuming 1.5PPM (with flurry, its own haste, and WF) and using the 2.2 rating values from the first post in this thread, I get the axe winning by a bit.

Dragonmaw
212 haste rating active 15s per min = 53 static haste * 1.48 = 78.44 AEP
Total = 78.44 AEP

Black Planar Edge
21 crit rating = 42 AEP
44 AP = 44 AEP
Total = 86 AEP
#2958SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ sordee
Originally Posted by Malan
[Shadowprowler's Chestguard]
<br />
32 \text { strength} \times 2.2 + 40 \text {agility} \times 2 + 8 \text {hit rating} \times 1.4 + 8 \text {socket} \times 2.2 \times 3 = 214.4 \text {AEP}<br />

Both items are amazingly good.

By comparison, the Bloodsea Brigand chest is 254.6, the Ranger General chest is 240.8 and the T5 chest is 233.6.
Anyone else seem it strange that on a pure dps level, comparing two crafted items: [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] is better then [Ebon Netherscale Breastplate]. (80AP + 31CR*2 + 8socket*2.2*3 = 194.8)
Granted it has ok non-pure dps stats of Int and MP5, and with the set bonus it pulls ahead.
#2959SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Toots Hepcat
See, this is why I was confused -- and why I posted. It looks like the uptime used to determine the AEP for Dragonstrike on the first post was around 30%. I don't dispute that value -- I'm just wondering how it was arrived at (I can't find it in searches on this thread).

And it doesn't seem strange to me that a crafted mail item with high stamina, int and MP5 would be worse for DPS than a crafted leather item with just stamina. That's the sort of item valuation we should expect -- there is very little pure Enhancer gear.
#2960SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
The 30% wasn't arrived at, its what was provided to me by the people that have the item.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2961SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
And it doesn't seem strange to me that a crafted mail item with high stamina, int and MP5 would be worse for DPS than a crafted leather item with just stamina. That's the sort of item valuation we should expect -- there is very little pure Enhancer gear.
And thats what you get when you compare ilvl 105 with ilvl 120 items.
#2962SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Revdarian
OK, now the patch is live and RED IS BUGGED.

It only works on melee special attacks (AKA Windfury//Stormstrike), and the % increment isn´t exactly 3% but more like 2.5-2.6% (so it does 200*2.56 or so dmg on yellow crits).


Can we remodel to see if the haste meta is better now?
#2963SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Why would we do that? If its bugged, it'll be fixed. If they make a statement that its working as intended, than yah sure we'll redo the optimal meta gem. Otherwise, why the heck would someone re-socket to to the haste gem, only to re-socket it back to the RED when its fixed?

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2964SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Revdarian
Well as you please, btw the haste meta gem got changed too, it is now 10sec duration to overcome the haste nerf.
#2965SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0GamingManiac
I'm getting massive framerate issues inside TK right now and I think it has something to do with the new windfury animation. Pre-pull, it's fine and then when we pull and 5 people are popping off cyclones all the time it just plummets. Anyone else getting this problem or is it just me?

Note: I'm not sure it is windfury, but SOMETHING in 2.2 completely makes raids unbearable for me.

__________________
#2966SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
You'll get better feedback in the UI sub forum.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#2967SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Anyone having Ferals report that WF is proccing for them? One of ours is and I'm sort of skeptical. He doesn't have SCT, so I think it's just Omen of Clarity had an animation change when it procs or something.
#2968SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0benvegas
There's reports that flurry now scales with the Windfury Cooldown in the WoW Shaman forums. Cant miss the thread, it's about 13 pages long. Any thoughts?
#2969SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by benvegas
There's reports that flurry now scales with the Windfury Cooldown in the WoW Shaman forums. Cant miss the thread, it's about 13 pages long. Any thoughts?
It's wrong. I've watched my combat log for the last hour and I have 0 WF procs overlapping a 3 second window.
#2970SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Yeah, I don't see any WF procs overlapping either using the WF3sec addon. However, it does seem like some are proccing immediately after, so maybe they are being "cached" if they occur within the 3 second cooldown as some have suggested. I could probably chalk this up to placebo effect though, since I was closely looking for WF hits and at the 3s timer. Either way, it didn't seem to have a substantive effect on my DPS.
#2971SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Kardiz
I been hearing rumors that like someone mentioned a few posts up that either WF is overlapping or the 3 sec cooldown on it is gone?

Can anyone confirm or deny this since the 2.2 patch?
#2972SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by Kardiz
I been hearing rumors that like someone mentioned a few posts up that either WF is overlapping or the 3 sec cooldown on it is gone?

Can anyone confirm or deny this since the 2.2 patch?
Confirm/Deny reading the two posts above yours.
#2973SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0seminarca
Originally Posted by Kardiz
I been hearing rumors that like someone mentioned a few posts up that either WF is overlapping or the 3 sec cooldown on it is gone?

Can anyone confirm or deny this since the 2.2 patch?
Did you read Rob's post, right above yours? 0o

I'm more interested in further information/testing on:

Originally Posted by Rob
Anyone having Ferals report that WF is proccing for them? One of ours is and I'm sort of skeptical. He doesn't have SCT, so I think it's just Omen of Clarity had an animation change when it procs or something.
Won't be back home to try myself for another ~4 hours =x
#2974SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Rob
Anyone having Ferals report that WF is proccing for them? One of ours is and I'm sort of skeptical. He doesn't have SCT, so I think it's just Omen of Clarity had an animation change when it procs or something.
http://i23.tinypic.com/ao96du.gif

WWS output of a feral in my group for a majority of the night, no WF.

Last edited by rava : 09/26/07 at 2:15 AM. Reason: ss'd the wrong thing
#2975SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Thanks. I knew he was crazy, but he was really insistent. Probably just shifted forms and saw a proc then noticed the buff icon which has always been there. Our WWS parse from tonight shows no Windfury Attack and confirms he was full of shit.
#3001SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
I don't think this is true. If there is an overpowered situation created by the new Enh changes, I don't believe it will be due to mana efficiency. Mana has never been the limiting factor on our DPS.
If anything, we'll be much better in 2v2 against teams without dispel or purge with the SR change.
#3002SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Yeah, this seems like it will be an advantage in small-format PvP (1v1, 2v2, 3v3). Any 5v5 team should have some type of offensive dispeller and you'll probably be CCing a healer, not the purgebot. However, I could see popping this allowing me to survive a large burst before the opposing team is able to get a purge off. (Or possibly forcing them to purge this + say, Mana Shield, before they purge BoP, or BoP & Mana Shield before this.)

I'm excited to try it out.
#3003SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Sashiel
Originally Posted by Delita
rocketboots + FS? :p I am a little concerned that the proposed talent increases to enhancement will get a nerf eventually, the mana effecieny introduced in the 11 point talent shamanistic focus (?) will effectively reduce my mana consumption by ~30%, as I will almost always have this buff up. (30%ish crit unbuffed) Add raid buffs and my suicide spec and I could potentially be around 50+% crit with all the procs running. (I know it's redundant, but it makes the rogues cry).

Maybe they'll take out/rework/reduce the mana effeciency further up the tree?
My guess is the increased mana effeciency is intended to make it easier for us to go full out dps, then stop in the middle of a battle and have enough mana to throw some heals around (heals improved by the mental quickness buff.)
#3004SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Pitbuller
"Spirit Weapons will also reduce melee threat by a total of 30% rather than 15%."

Then we are same line with dps warriors when talking treath issues. This is just what i have ever wished for.
#3005SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0slant
Warriors have only 20% reduction, but it applies to all of their damage, not just melee. But given that shocks are ~10% of our overall damage and likely more once we get the AP->SP in 2.3, I agree. It'll put us on par with warriors.
#3006SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Ilmatar
I didn't see this posted, so I'll quote it:
We're adding new relics to support all talent trees in patch 2.3 for Shaman, Paladins and Druids. In addition, (not that this will sweep you off your feet), most of the arena-system relics have been renamed so there is a more consistent naming convention.
I remember some rumors about the Trials of the Naaru questline yielding something, but it looks like you are going to get a title from that (forgot exactly where I saw that blue post) and Eyonix was pointing to ZA for filling in some of our gear gaps.
#3007SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0drats
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
I didn't see this posted, so I'll quote it:

I remember some rumors about the Trials of the Naaru questline yielding something, but it looks like you are going to get a title from that (forgot exactly where I saw that blue post) and Eyonix was pointing to ZA for filling in some of our gear gaps.
If people are looking for specifics, here's the blue tracker link:

WoW BlueTracker: Enhancement shaman - Low blow
#3008SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Ilmatar
Err, doh, meant to post the link, thanks.
#3009SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
WoW Forums -> Enhancement shaman - Low blow
You heard it here first, Eyonix confirms slow weapons are best with Windfury!
#3010SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Malan
You heard it here first, Eyonix confirms slow weapons are best with Windfury!
This can only mean one thing: they are planning on changing the mechanics of Windfury to make it better with faster weapons in a future patch.
#3011SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0slant
Don't bet on it. She truly doesn't understand what that implies, despite everybody rolling over themselves trying to explain it.
#3012SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
No, Eyonix went on to say that true min/maxers will continue to use slow weapons, and that its totally ok if AverageJoe uses a dagger but doesn't know better.
#3013SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Cross posting this from the Elemental thread:
The second change impacts water shield. This spell will no longer cost any mana to cast (which also means the five-minute rule will not be affected) and the mana granted per globe has been substantially increased. Additionally, the spells duration has been shortened to one minute and at the end of its duration it now grants mana for any remaining globes.
WoW Forums -> Upcoming Elemental Shaman Changes
Outstanding change that all but ensures you'll have an elemental shield up at all times. More mana to use is never a bad thing.

Also, I was being completely sarcastic slant :P Once clueless people start understanding things, it's time to change it!
#3014SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Lets not change the focus of this thread, but to clarify, though I've already made a follow-up explaining that I wasn't stating those were by any means "good" enhancement stats, but rather discussing with a player that in my personal opinion and in my experience those stats are better than spirit and spell crit.
Also, you may not fully understand statification and item budgeting. Those values would convert to an extreme minimal amount of enhancement preferred stats.
All I can really do is laugh about that. Yeah, taking 11/5 off of an item would give you minimal values elsewhere when mp/5 is one of the most overbudget stats.
#3015SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Stander
Del.

Last edited by Stander : 09/27/07 at 12:05 AM. Reason: Wrong thread
#3016SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nemaa
Reading that bluetracker post I found this (regarding the new mental quickness talent):
"Okay, right. Sorry guys. I've had quite a bit to keep track of as of late. That change is going into patch 2.3. But instead it will convert from spirit rather than attack power."
WoW Forums -> Enhancement shaman - Low blow

I tought it gets a nerf. 30% AP to spellup is way more that we should get.
#3017SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Stander
Dont know if this applies but does anyone use Wicked Edge of the Planar and notice the fiery trail is gone? That trail was sweet, anyone know if this was a mistake or intended?
I think you were looking for this thread - http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t16245-2...nted_features/


Nemma - wrong. Re-read the post. He was joking. It will be 30% of AP.
#3018SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Ilmatar
Malan got it.

Last edited by Ilmatar : 09/26/07 at 9:03 PM. Reason: Duplicate info.
#3019SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Grogzor
Edit - Beaten to the Punch
#3020SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nemaa
Ah sorry about the confusion, that post scared me. So it's going to be 30% of attack power, thank god

Yo: today I acquired quite lot of good loots and I was curious how the AEP values changed using your sim again. The results were surprising:
Crit Rating=2.02
Agility=1.96
Hit Rating=2.06
Haste Rating=1.9
Armor Penetration=0.29

Is this supposed to be true? Hit rating is better than crit rating? Is this some kind of bug in the sim or it's again theory < simulation? My base stats are:
AP: 1678
Crit: 33.02%
Hit Rating: 140 (+9% talents)
Haste: 2.35%
Armor Penetration: 175
#3021SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
What were your values prior to that so we have a comparison?

Oh and also, its been said that when you hit high values of AP that your Hit rating becomes a lot more important, so maybe you're just seeing that dynamic.
#3022SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Nemaa
Originally Posted by Malan
What were your values prior to that so we have a comparison?

Oh and also, its been said that when you hit high values of AP that your Hit rating becomes a lot more important, so maybe you're just seeing that dynamic.
As far as I know hit improves only white damage what means ~50% of my total damage. Also crit rating gets worse as you gain more, this was discussed when we talked about feral 5% crit or 3% all damage (hunter buff). Maybe I'm at the point where 50% of my damage improved by 1 point of hit is better than 90% of my damage improved by 1 point of crit?

The old values were:
Crit Rating=2.16
Agility=2.1
Hit Rating=1.91
HasteRating=1.62
Armor Penetration=0.28
This was calculated with an older version of the sim what did not include trinkets but had mongoose and buffs working. I was in a 16.36% passive haste gear that time, maybe that's the difference? Today I dropped my passive haste to 2.35% to improve my AP and Crit.

Last edited by Nemaa : 09/26/07 at 9:22 PM.
#3023SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Shabadu
With unholy frenzy I was often waiting 4-5 seconds after the wf cooldown was up to proc. Bad luck, but I sincerly doubt it was queueing.

I saw a pretty harsh drop off in DPS on Anetheron, I lost about 200dps compared to last week with the same gear. I didn't get a good check on my other benchmark fight, Teron, since I got the second shadow of death. We'll see how it is on Council and Reliquary later.

Hm, I didn't notice anything of that sort. My gear isn't as great as some of you here, but I did a nice 1436 DPS on Anetheron, which is more than last week (which is no surprise, considering the amount of upgrades I get whilst farming tier 6 content) but still, it's a number close to what you would expect from my gear (-shoulders and chest, which I got today).

Wow Web Stats
#3024SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
About FS coming off of DR. Currently it's the ONLY snare on DR. Hamstring, frost bolt, Cone of Cold, Blast Wave, that warrior yell (forget the name), Wing Clip, Earth Bind, Curse of Exhaustion, Slow, and any other ability that slows you down isn't on DR. Now actual CC is, but not snares.

Also I hope they make SR a non magic ability, but I don't think they will sadly. At least not until there is a lot of crying about it not doing hardly anything in PvP (which really is what it's meant for) due to getting removed by one of the the various removal abilities.

Oh and just to confirm what the other people have been saying, WF is still on the 3 second CD. I have time stamps and Shaman's Friend and Shaman's Friend never reported a WF within 3 seconds of another WF last night in TK.
#3025SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
+ Changed armor functionality slightly (uses Mitigation = 10557.5/(Math.max(Armor,0)+10557.5 now)
+ Changed SS chance to miss to MH yellow attack chance to miss (0 effect in 99% cases)
+ Added Outland zone pvp buff to Buffs tab (input increased elemental damage manually)
+ Changed procs' ppms of Dragonspine Trophy and Madness of the Betrayer to be unaffected by speed. This is still experimental - if it will prove to be game-like - several other procs will be changed as well
+ Added 20 s hidden cooldown to Dragonspine Trophy (huge nerf)

Originally Posted by Nemaa
As far as I know hit improves only white damage what means ~50% of my total damage. Also crit rating gets worse as you gain more, this was discussed when we talked about feral 5% crit or 3% all damage (hunter buff). Maybe I'm at the point where 50% of my damage improved by 1 point of hit is better than 90% of my damage improved by 1 point of crit?

The old values were:
Crit Rating=2.16
Agility=2.1
Hit Rating=1.91
HasteRating=1.62
Armor Penetration=0.28
This was calculated with an older version of the sim what did not include trinkets but had mongoose and buffs working. I was in a 16.36% passive haste gear that time, maybe that's the difference? Today I dropped my passive haste to 2.35% to improve my AP and Crit.
Yes - theoretically it is possible that there is a point when Hit (applying to only 50% of your damage but increasing on-hit procs uptime such as most trinkets and windfury) is better over Crit (applying to 90+% of your damage but not increasing UR -already 100% and increasing flurry only slightly). This highly depends on trinkets and other on-hit procs and is achievable with the end-game gear with extreme crit levels.

Last edited by Yo! : 09/26/07 at 11:06 PM.
#3026SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Well, all of our mages are arcane now, bye coe/scorch . I don't really feel right earthshocking simply due to larger benefits from other classes, so gimp flameshock rules on.

RED nerf getting undone also!
#3027SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Atren
Personally i would expect WF mechanics rework along with new expansion. I doubt they will be doing it earlier.

Last edited by Atren : 09/27/07 at 3:11 AM.
#3028SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I'm thinking they might have buffed Anetheron's armor. I noticed a 1-200 dps drop for our rogues on that fight as well. While the haste and RED changes add up, I doubt it's for that much. If I had the same rogues as last week I'd be able to tell for certain.

Wow Web Stats vs last week's:Wow Web Stats
I scored my highest DPS on Anetheron this week, so I dont believe the armor of this boss has changed.

My gear has had 1 change in the last 3 weeks as far as I recall, which was the Gurtogg ring, I also switched to Band of Eternity this week, but didnt do that until after Hyjal (brain lag)

Here is the link to last nights Anetheron and the one 2 weeks before, didnt post last weeks since we had 3 rogues/warrior in group vs 2 rogues/warrrior/druid in the other two.

13th Sept Stigmata - WWS

26th Sept Stigmata - WWS

The problem for compairing the two is vast difference is crit, one week I get 31% white/30%WF and the next I get 39% white/40%WF.

Edit: I was making a poor job of totem twisting this week vs not doing it previously, which may also have skewed the results.

Last edited by Stigmata : 09/27/07 at 6:26 AM.
#3029SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
Blizzard has fixed the tooltip of ashtongue talisman with the 2.2, anyone noticed if they changed the procrate too ?
#3030SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Stigmata
Originally Posted by smokey
Blizzard has fixed the tooltip of ashtongue talisman with the 2.2, anyone noticed if they changed the procrate too ?
Ive got 314 Procs out of 618 Suscessful Stormstrikes, but I dont think WWS records refreshes.
#3031SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nemaa
What is fixed in the tooltip?
I don't see any changes (searched armory, thottbot and wowhead)
#3032SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Hotiedraenei
New JC Designs for Red, Yellow, Blue Sockets

What is the thoughts on the new Epic Jewel Crafting designs for the Bind on Pickup gems available to the Jewel Crafters?

Crimson Sun

Stone of Blades

How would those compare Red Socket to the Bold Living Ruby and Yellow Socket Inscribed Noble Topaz
#3033SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0syrixx
2.3 Changes and unofficial patch notes
(Goto the above link for other changes/updates/and to click sources)
Shamans

* New Talent replacing the 2 Handed weapons one - Elemental Focus: Puts you in a "focused state" after landing a melee critical strike, reducing the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60% (Source)
* All shaman can equip 2-Handed Axes and 2-Handed Maces without spending talent points. (Source)
* Frost shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns. (Source)
* Shamanistic rage also reduces all damages taken by 30% for the duration of the ability (30 seconds) in addition to its current effect. (Source)
* Spirit weapons reduces melee threat by 30% instead of 15%. (Source)
* Mental Quickness adds 10/20/30% to spell damage and healing bonuses based on your total Attack Power in addition to it's current effects. (Source)
* Lightning Overload now has a 4/8/12/16/20% chance to proc (Source)
* Lightning Overload damage has been decreased by 50% (Source)
* Lightning Overload now causes 0 threat (Source)
* Lightning Mastery reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds (Source)
* Mana Spring Totem now restores mana at a rate of 20 mana every 2 seconds (Source)
* Water Shield now costs 0 mana to cast, and the mana per globe has been substantially increased (Source)
* Water Shield's duration has been reduced to 1 minute, and grants mana for each globe left upon ending (Source)
* Elemental Focus will now reduce the mana cost of your next two damage spells by 40% (Source)
* Lightning Bolt casting time reduced to 2.5 seconds, and mana cost decreased (Source)
* Chain Lightning casting time reduced to 2 seconds, and mana cost decreased (Source)
Looks like they are really trying to help out our longevity. Reduced shock cost, better mana spring, and improved water shield.
#3034SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Hotiedraenei
What is the thoughts on the new Epic Jewel Crafting designs for the Bind on Pickup gems available to the Jewel Crafters?

Crimson Sun

Stone of Blades

How would those compare Red Socket to the Bold Living Ruby and Yellow Socket Inscribed Noble Topaz
Edit: I should have politely said there was a post on AEP on page 1 of the thread instead of flaming or not said anything at all. Sorry I flamed

Last edited by Mbuzi : 09/27/07 at 6:07 PM. Reason: I was rude
#3035SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Shabadu
I noticed a push on my Council DPS this week, under pretty much exactly the same circumstances, 3 haste pots used. I only got #1 this week because a rogue ate envenon/flamestrike/blizzard. I'm thinking my shitty Anetheron dps was a fluke.

Shabadu - WWS, last week

Shabadu - WWS, last night
#3036SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Avair
* New Talent replacing the 2 Handed weapons one - Elemental Focus: Puts you in a "focused state" after landing a melee critical strike, reducing the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60% (Source)
* All shaman can equip 2-Handed Axes and 2-Handed Maces without spending talent points. (Source)
* Frost shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns. (Source)
* Shamanistic rage also reduces all damages taken by 30% for the duration of the ability (30 seconds) in addition to its current effect. (Source)
* Mental Quickness adds 10/20/30% to spell damage and healing bonuses based on your total Attack Power in addition to it's current effects. (Source)
I know this thread does not have a PvP focus, but all of the above changes seem like a huge boost in usefulness to an enhancement shaman who might want to PvP. In particular, the Frost Shock now being a reliable snare (like Hamstring and Crippling Poison + Shiv), means an enhancement shaman should be able to stay on target.

The biggest question will be about the ease of dispellablity for Shamanistic Rage. This statement by Eynonix here:

WoW Forums -> Enhancement shaman - Low blow
Okay, sorry everyone I may have made an error. I've only been doing arenas with my shaman recently, and I've been elemental for some tim. The end result is I may have just made a total shammy Noob statement. I'm not at work to verify, as I'm off today. Is shamanistic rage currently dispelable?

Please clarify for me.
seems to imply that at least someone is aware of how, much like Pain Suppression and Bestial Wrath, a long cooldown powerful ability that can be 1 shot purged is less than desirable in PvP.

The main question will be, does this make Enh shaman viable in Arena? Time will tell I guess.
#3037SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by rava
RED nerf getting undone also!
Well hey, look at that. We didn't need to re-calc meta gems, just like I predicted.
#3038SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Atren
Avair, unfortunaly in pvp perspective we are worse after 2.3 possibly. Rogues blind no longer poison (meaning we cant dispel it) and hunters getting dispel to their arcane shot. Also paladins seals are no longer dispellable if talented right. Overall if SR does not become immune to dispel then i would say we are clearly off worse.
#3039SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0siaheed
I've been reading through the posts about slow/slow WF/WF being "the best". I've looked at the simulations I noticed that none of these simulations include FT. I been raiding with another shaman that uses slow weapons (talon of the pheonix / runic hammer) versus my slow fast (Decap / Tracker's blade) I'm coming out on top most of the time. If possible I'd like to see a simulation that includes current WF/FT.

Sims I found that look reliable yet lacked an FT option.
crazy shaman's dps & AEP calculator

shamulator
#3040SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
WWS parses and Armory links for both shaman to back that up, otherwise you're pretty much just posting hot air.
#3041SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0siaheed
Originally Posted by siaheed
I've been reading through the posts about slow/slow WF/WF being "the best". I've looked at the simulations I noticed that none of these simulations include FT. I been raiding with another shaman that uses slow weapons (talon of the pheonix / runic hammer) versus my slow fast (Decap / Tracker's blade) I'm coming out on top most of the time. If possible I'd like to see a simulation that includes current WF/FT.

Sims I found that look reliable yet lacked an FT option.
crazy shaman's dps & AEP calculator

shamulator
mine

The other shaman

I will get the WWS parses as soon as possible, as our guild had a fallout and and disbanded.
#3042SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Seems to me that Evenia should be coming out on top by gear alone, but you're probably more skilled than he, or getting better party buffs. (e.g. LoTP, BS, GoA, FI?)

It's also worth noting that you're using one of the best fast OHs and he's using one of the worst slow OHs.

Last edited by Rob : 09/27/07 at 12:50 PM.
#3043SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
What you really need to tell us is whether you swapping in a slow weapon with WF on the same fights with same conditions produces better results. Comparing yourself to another shaman is going to be difficult - especially since right now we don't even know what fight you're talking about.

Edit - you're also going to need to provide pretty detailed consumable use and group structure to back up any claim like that. If you're getting Battleshout or LotP, and he's not, that's a huge frigging deal. Also as Rob said above, you're using a 100 DPS dagger and he's using one of the least preferred 80 DPS slow off hands.

Last edited by Malan : 09/27/07 at 12:57 PM.
#3044SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0wocket
Im just wondering, will the Mental Quickness change coming in 2.3 have any effect on the current AEP numbers or cause any significant change in the relative values of certain stats?
#3045SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0siaheed
I don't switch weapons at all I'm using WF on my MH and FT on my OH, through trash and bosses. The only time I'm seeing a drop in Dps is on the banshee's in Hyjal when they put up anti-magic aura.

It's also worth noting that you're using one of the best fast OHs and he's using one of the worst slow OHs.
This alone may be the difference causing me to do more, however I'm still trying to track down some WWS, maybe tonight I will have them.

another thing, has anyone tried a Lightning capacitator with FT? does it work?
#3046SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Nope.

How big of a DPS gap are you talking about here anyways?
#3047SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Stick with what you like, but if when get a chance for a 2.6s offhand drop, try it out.

I've tried swapping my WF [Boggspine Knuckles] for FT [Guile of Khoraazi] and it's about a 20 dps falloff with the faster weapon.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing an options to try ANY imbue in simulators, in part because it would help prove theories. I sometimes use Rockbiter when helping out new tanks, as i then get the Spirit Weapons reduction over 80% of my damage, instead of merely 50%.
#3048SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0fatforprom
Originally Posted by siaheed
another thing, has anyone tried a Lightning capacitator with FT? does it work?
Yes it does work. It's a neat idea but with such an awful spell crit rating in Enhancement gear, i don't see how it would be effective.

Back to lurking I go ...
#3049SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Multane
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Stick with what you like, but if when get a chance for a 2.6s offhand drop, try it out.

I've tried swapping my WF [Boggspine Knuckles] for FT [Guile of Khoraazi] and it's about a 20 dps falloff with the faster weapon.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing an options to try ANY imbue in simulators, in part because it would help prove theories. I sometimes use Rockbiter when helping out new tanks, as i then get the Spirit Weapons reduction over 80% of my damage, instead of merely 50%.
Can you elaborate on those %ages please? I've seen other people claim that the spirit weapons threat reduction doesn't apply to WF and Stormstrike attacks, but i've never seen any proof.

If that is indeed what you are saying, and you have proof, would you please share it with me?

Last edited by Multane : 09/27/07 at 1:58 PM. Reason: spelling
#3050SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
Originally Posted by Nemaa
What is fixed in the tooltip?
I don't see any changes (searched armory, thottbot and wowhead)
Ok maybe it was just a bug with the located french version, it was like "Stormstrike has a 5246qs@% chance to grant up to 413433s$ attack power for 10 sec." Now it shows the correct numbers.

Glad they havent changed the insane proc rate ^^
#3051SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
CM posts in the Shaman forum yesterday stated that the QA team reported back that Spirit Weapons affects *all* melee damage not just white attacks.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#3052SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Toots Hepcat
Multane -- I assumed it was already proven, which is why I switch to Rockbiter when the tank has low TPS. I'd love to get evidence of this theory for you, but I have no idea how to test threat other than eyeballing Omen. (Those percentages come from Recount, btw...~50% is my white damage when using WF and ~80% when using Rockbiter)

I can only say that when I use Rockbiter, I am able to do more DPS when I am extremely threat capped. And when a tank doesn't have a threat meter, it's pretty much the only way I survive.

Folks who have been shamans since before BC may pick up on the irony of using Rockbiter to REDUCE threat.
#3053SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by GamingManiac
I'm getting massive framerate issues inside TK right now and I think it has something to do with the new windfury animation. Pre-pull, it's fine and then when we pull and 5 people are popping off cyclones all the time it just plummets. Anyone else getting this problem or is it just me?

Note: I'm not sure it is windfury, but SOMETHING in 2.2 completely makes raids unbearable for me.
I'm having trouble as well in Hyjal/BT. Bosses it's fine, but on trash (mainly aoe) my frame rate is down to 7 from 20 in all previous weeks. It makes it hard to dps overall when I have lag delay, and it really doesn't help my trial process. Guess I'm buying dual a core this week.
#3054SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Nite_Moogle
~50% is my white damage when using WF and ~80% when using Rockbiter
This is due to the fact that Rockbiter sucks like a 500 horsepower sump pump and your yellow damage is going to crap. It's got nothing to do with Spirit Weapons.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#3055SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I can only say that when I use Rockbiter, I am able to do more DPS when I am extremely threat capped. And when a tank doesn't have a threat meter, it's pretty much the only way I survive.
.
Well of course it is lower threat, you're generating fewer hits overall. Dropping WF because your tank has low TPS isn't exactly the right answer, your tank should be picking up his game. As I said above, Eyonix stated that Spirit Weapons is working for ALL melee hits, Stormstrike and Windfury included, according to the QA team.

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#3056SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
The new sound changes are causing the FPS to drop. Specifically the reverb and additional sound channels. WF animation has nothing to do with FPS changes.
#3057SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by fatforprom
Yes it does work. It's a neat idea but with such an awful spell crit rating in Enhancement gear, i don't see how it would be effective.
Screenshots or it didn't happen. (Last time we discussed this, someone showed that it didn't proc on FT crit.)
#3058SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Illundai
Anyone did Reliquary yet? I was seeing some ABSURD numbers on my crits throughout every phase, we're still inside, so I'll upload WWS later on, but I'm talking about 12k windfury crits when both attacks on my MH procced. I most definitely didn't see numbers even remotely close to that last week. This was in phase 2, with Deaden ofcourse. Still, last week that was maybe 8k maximum.
#3059SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by fangar
The new sound changes are causing the FPS to drop. Specifically the reverb and additional sound channels. WF animation has nothing to do with FPS changes.
Yep. Uncheck 'Enable Sound' in the sound options and you'll notice a big increase in FPS, or at least I did. I run on a low end machine, so I have to squeeze all I can out of things. I don't like not having any sound since I'm used to listening to many audio cues when certain things happen, but my performance in a raid situation is much better with less video lag.
#3060SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Audrix
Hi, I wanted to ask if any shamans that currently have Dragonspine Trophy still consider it one of the best trinkets after the haste nerf in 2.2 or we are better off going after the Tsunami Talisman now. A guildie of mine did the math but he is a rogue and this is what he posted in our forums:

Well, after the haste nerf, DST is no longer as godly as it once was. For those who were curious how godly, before the nerf, DST was worth 215 agility equivalent points. (AEP) That means it was roughly the equivalent of giving a rogue 215 agility buff.

After the patch, DST is now worth 101 AEP. And that means it's still the best trinket in the game for rogues. By comparison, the second best trinket in the game for rogues is the Tsunami Talisman (Dropped by Leotheras the Blind, btw) at 82 AEP.

So for those of us who had done the math, it was pretty obvious DST was getting nerfed. Very few items in the game are twice as good as the next best item in the game. But even after the nerf, there's still no better trinket. So while I'm usually first on the line of protest when rogue items get nerfed, in this case, I can kinda understand why.

Please note that I've only done the theorycrafting for rogues. I'm not sure how the change would affect hunters or warriors.
Thx
#3061SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
I'm ignoring things that have answers in the first post from now on.
#3062SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Audrix
Originally Posted by Rob
I'm ignoring things that have answers in the first post from now on.
Maybe my question have been mis understood. Yes you are correct the information is on the 1st post but it makes reference to PTR testing. So maybe the question would be if it holds true currently on a live server or have Blizzard tweak it even more or less and the the math done is incorrect. I notice Malan has edit his post on the bottom but its hard to tell what has been change or if he has address the subject on his post yet.
#3063SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Yakout
Originally Posted by Rob
Screenshots or it didn't happen. (Last time we discussed this, someone showed that it didn't proc on FT crit.)


It most certainly does generate charges off of FT crits. Not saying you want to try to rely on that for melee DPS, but it is there...
#3064SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Juice
Originally Posted by Yakout
It most certainly does generate charges off of FT crits. Not saying you want to try to rely on that for melee DPS, but it is there...
If you're talking about LC firing or stacking charges on FT crit - it most certainly does.
#3065SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Audrix
Yes you are correct the information is on the 1st post but it makes reference to PTR testing. So maybe the question would be if it holds true currently on a live server or have Blizzard tweak it even more or less and the the math done is incorrect.
It was on the 2.2 PTR, thus it's now what's on live. This should be obvious.

Originally Posted by Yakout
It most certainly does generate charges off of FT crits. Not saying you want to try to rely on that for melee DPS, but it is there...
Interesting.

Actually, I think I remembered wrong. Someone said that SS crits were generating LC charges, and that's what was proven incorrect. I apologize!
#3066SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0forge
So, i finally got my DST last night, hurray for that, our third DST drop with roughly 6months of gruul kills i think.

But what got me intrested is, we went to VR after that i could have swore to seen haste procs almost immediatly after each other.

So i did a manual scan of last nights combatlog and this is what i found:

9/27 22:56:07.433  You gain Haste.
9/27 22:56:51.604  You gain Haste.

9/27 23:12:28.206  You gain Haste.
9/27 23:12:55.918  You gain Haste.
Wasn't the cooldown suppose to be 60 seconds ? As i see it's even less than 30 second, anyone else finding anything like this ? I'm not raiding for a while now but after i am next week again i'll try to see again if i can get get some test samples of what the real cooldown is.
#3067SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0BoinKlasik
Just thought I would drop by and point out something I found out today. Many people com here asking what Kael weapon they would use. The response generally has been use the 2h and use the proc with your normal weapons.

However, it turns out the proc goes away if you take off Devastation anyway. So you are better off sticking with one or the other since swapping them doesn't make much sense and gets kind of confusing anyway..
#3068SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Stigmata
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
Just thought I would drop by and point out something I found out today. Many people com here asking what Kael weapon they would use. The response generally has been use the 2h and use the proc with your normal weapons.

However, it turns out the proc goes away if you take off Devastation anyway. So you are better off sticking with one or the other since swapping them doesn't make much sense and gets kind of confusing anyway..
I don't think anyone ever said they switched weapons after getting the proc did they?

I could be wrong, but months ago when I used it a couple of times, The switch to normal weapons was usually when I was in place at the next boss.
#3069SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I don't think anyone ever said they switched weapons after getting the proc did they?

I could be wrong, but months ago when I used it a couple of times, The switch to normal weapons was usually when I was in place at the next boss.
I guess i was going off of this post, because it sounded like a great idea at the time, the potential combination of 20% haste and my normal weapons was too good to pass up. I was simply surprised when you could not do it.

edit: stig your gear never ceases to scare me.
#3070SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0blitzkriegss
Hi,

Very very nice post. love it. ty!
But you might want to add this weapon to top5(6) weapons to have, cause it is now updated too on 2.2. [Talon of the Phoenix]
If you calculate this weapon same way that you calculated those top5 weapons this give u 111AEP

Edit:

Link to that weapon do not show new correct values.
New values are:
182-339 Damage
96.5 DPS
2.7 Speed
15 Hit Rating
19 Crit Rating
52 Attack Power
#3071SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Stigmata
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
edit: stig your gear never ceases to scare me.
Only 3 items left before sunwell is realesed that would be an upgrade/sidegrade.

Makes famring BT/Hyjal alot less enjoyable I can tell you.
#3072SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Boro
I have to admit to being more of a lurker on these forums. However, I like most people who have taken on board this information have hopefully used the information wisely.

Doing the numbers and understanding the mechanics allow you configure your character in order to achieve the best from a DPS perspective. Eventually, upgrades in gear make only small changes in potential DPS.

I followed the progress and gear selection of many people (particularly Stig) looked at countless WWS parses including my own. Spent hours swithching gear around; even during raids. I got so lost in what I started with, the figures became meaningless with very little net gain in DPS. I learned that whilst DPS figures in WWS parses showed the art of the possible.....the biggest revalation for me was DPS time. I always had lower DPS time than other melee (and yes the boss you are on will have a major effect on this) accounted for by Totem planting, the odd heal here and there but primarily in my case it was over caution. I needed to be bolder get in earlier, be faster anticiapte totem dropping during phases when i could not DPS and most of all trust my healers. Having being the over healing champion of the world in my days as a resto Shaman, I found myself watching my green bar too much and healing myself too often. I did good DPS but never great; I knew it wasn't just gear....rather how I was playing.

Learning encounters and understanding the limits of my DPS time combined with gear selection and the countless simulator runs brought the whole thing together for me from a DPS perspective and more importantly in my uptime of unleased rage for others in the melee group.

This most probably seems like common sense; but it took me some time to figure out the obvious. Many factors can determine the your DPS time but figuring out what works for you will have very positive results in your DPS contribution either personal or your group. It didn't happen over night either, it took me months to figure it out.

Finally, Haste Pots are still the Daddy !!!
#3073SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shabadu
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I guess i was going off of this post, because it sounded like a great idea at the time, the potential combination of 20% haste and my normal weapons was too good to pass up. I was simply surprised when you could not do it.

edit: stig your gear never ceases to scare me.
I use the 2h axe on Sanguinar to be able to quickly run away from Thaladred and get into place for Kael. I have a weaponswitch with the dagger for purging MC on melee next to me, but otherwise I just use the 2h or my normal weapons depending on my mood and whether I want to see a big windfury or not.
#3074SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
MalgorTB
<Message Deleted>

Last edited by MalgorTB : 09/28/07 at 12:07 PM.
#3075SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by MalgorTB
Hi guys!

I'm a resto shaman currently, and am currently gathering gear to switch to enhancement.

I currently have the Reflex Blades banked (2.7) and am grinding honor for the High Warlord's Cleaver (2.6).

I am worried, however, that having my offhand slower than my main hand will gimp my DPS. Has anyone done any simulations/theorycrafting comparing your DPS with your mainhand slightly slower than with your offhand?

If the answer is in one of these pages (so many pages!), please link me!
Why don't you look yourself? There is a lot of information on weapon speeds.
#3076SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
I want to ignore it, but like a car accident I just can't look away.

Read the original post, carefully. Very very carefully. You may, if you look close enough, find a java simulator that you can use.
#3077SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Jerem
Originally Posted by MalgorTB
If the answer is in one of these pages (so many pages!), please link me!
There unfortunately are so many pages because of the same questions being asked over and over again, even though the answers are on the very first post of this thread.

EDIT : beaten to it - feel free to delete my post
#3078SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Tornhoof
I've posted my second Technology Preview for the second version of my equip optimizer.

Major changes are:

Reduced memory usage to ~25%, thanks to google's sparse hash library
Speed increase by ~50%.

The engine is now practically finished, including enchants, gems, metagems and stuff.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#3079SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aerioch
Along the lines of Boro's post, one of the things that hasn't really been documented in much detail in both this thread and the previous iteration is general combat mechanics for Enhancement Shaman. Specifically tips for increasing overall DPS time, which seems to be my problem. Admittedly, the main role of an Enhancement Shaman in raids, and something I try to adhere to, is to provide buffs for fellow melee classes in my group. But still, it's a little disheartening to see some 1.8 wielding "noob" to constantly both out DPS and out-damage me, especially when I have what would be considered the more optimal gear and talent build and the same general set of raid buffs and pot usage. (Azerbaijan modeled at a base, sell-buffed only, 604 DPS vs. my profile armory link modeled at base 684 DPS for those curious -- And yes, I know I need upgrades, don't we all).

There are some basics that I try and take into account; attacking from the rear whenever possible, a Flame Shock -> Earth Shock x 2 rotation, dropping totem refreshes during shock cool downs, judicious use of Shamanistic Rage + Bloodlust Brooch, timing Storm Strike outside of the Wide Fury cool down. What am I missing here in the translation of simulation to real-world performance (knowing that simulation numbers should always be higher that real-world)? I'm almost tempted to do the unthinkable to pull out my Malchzeen on the next Kara farming run and see how it compares just for kicks.

Trying not to turn this into a "stroking my e-peen" message, are there any other tips to basic combat mechanics that would warrant additional discussion in this thread and possible inclusion to the OP?
#3080SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
I'm certainly not an innovator when it comes to enhancement shaman play.

Much to the delight of the rogues in my group I have started twisting based on some of the discussions more recently in this thread. This has lead to my crit rate bumping up as one would expect, but I lament the loss in shock damage. Being undergeared and wildly inconsistant I hate to lose DPS because I am constantly challenging and berating myself to do better, generally chugging in around 800-900 DPS (SSC/TK).

I have been using the Totem Twisting macro in the OP to good success even if it means I am hitting the same key over and over again in rapid succession in 5 second bursts.

The last raid I modified it to burn even more mana and added Earth Shock in the rotation.

/castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Earth Shock, Stormstrike
Mana burn was fun to deal with, but the pallies were good with JOW, so with well timed Shamanistic Rage is wasn't an issue most of the time. Has anyone else experimented with this?

Granted this isn't an appreciable increase in DPS (shocking once every 10 seconds, but on lurker it added about 3% of my DPS).

I'd recommend that if you are bored and have about 7k mana, to give it a shot and see if it works. Gave me something to do in terms of managing my mana and still use haste instead of mana pots.
#3081SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Aerioch
Along the lines of Boro's post, one of the things that hasn't really been documented in much detail in both this thread and the previous iteration is general combat mechanics for Enhancement Shaman. Specifically tips for increasing overall DPS time, which seems to be my problem.
I'm not really sure what you're asking to be added. This isn't really a play-by-play guide covering 100% of all aspects of the game. As an example, people keep asking 'why isn't weapon X in your list of good OHs or MHs?' They're not there because you should be able to reasonably infer where those stand in comparison to the others. Same reason why there's no section on "Why you should enchant your gear with +Strength," why would I need to do that when you can already figure out the AEP value of each enchant on your own?

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#3082SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aerioch
For Fangar -- I'll give twisting a try next run and see how it pans out. I had attempted it when it was first discussed a couple months ago, but with the lack of tools at the time to provide insight on timing, I gave up after the first raid. In theory, Enhancer, along with the better macros now available should give me a better level of comfort in attempting this technique.

For Malan -- It may sound like I asking people to "help me play WoW", but I'm really just trying to pick the collectives mind on play techniques specific to this spec. As the group has found when it comes to determining AeP formulas and methodologies for gear selection, the process of optimizing performance is an extremely deep one. This is probably the only place where one can find such a concentrated group of excellent and skilled players at this spec, thus the original intent of this query. If deemed inappropriate though, I'll drop the discussion since such a topic is much more speculative in nature than the quantifiable work that's been the focus of the threads to date.
#3083SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
I'm not saying its inappropriate, I just really don't know what else would be added. Attack from behind, drop totems, gear yourself correctly... what else is there?

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#3084SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0kojimoto
To Aerioch:

Enhancement shaman as you may know, do not have alot of special abilities. Like the original post says, a good cycle is flame shock initially, stormstrike, earth shock, rinse and repeat, there's not alot of technique behind it.

If you want to get more in depth, it really depends on what fight or what instance your in. For instance i keep my shock rotation and hit stormstrike when the 3sec cooldown is up. I dont totem twist, but if I have to (i.e. Void Reaver for tranq), i make sure i dont twist during my shock rotations or when stormstrike is down, due to the global cooldown, but its a very minor dps increase. I use "WF3SEC" to time my stormstrike, it can be found on files.wowace.com

Why your're lacking in dps, im not sure. Haven't bothered to check your armory, but if you read the post i hope your using two slow weapons.
#3085SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Xoya
For me, my low DPS time on some fights comes from not having Cloak of Shadows, and not entirely trusting my healers to be able to heal me through random AOE. This generally means I'm use health pots, absorb pots, and healthstones at most applicable opportunities, which increases my DPS time, but on fights where the AoE damage comes often and hits hard (Rage Winterchill + Decay, Azgalor + Rain of Fire -- those are the first two that come to mind), not having Cloak of Shadows really hurts my DPS time. My job on those fights is to stay alive and provide totems and Unleashed Rage to my melee. Especially on a fight like Azgalor, if I can stay alive the whole fight, I'm still going to be 4th or 5th in damage even if my damage is quite a bit lower compared to the melee I am buffing.
#3086SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0wocket
hey, I was wondering if someone could check my math for me. I was thinking about verifying that as of 2.3, the flame shock, earth shock will still be the optimal rotation even if you spec into Mental Quickness. All coefficients and suchlike are ripped from wowwiki.

earth shock: 658-692 damage (avg 675). 42.86% spell coefficient.

flame shock: 377direct 420/12 sec. 15% coefficient on direct and 52% on DoT.

I tried to do the math for 3 different rotations; ES ES, FS ES, and FS FS (just for shits and giggles). All rotas are based on 12 seconds, instead of just 2 casts. X=paper doll spell power.

ES ES (using average hit):
2(675 + (X*.4286))=
1350 + .8572X

FS ES:
675 + (X*.4286) + (377 + 420) + .15X + (X*.52)=
1472 + 1.0986X

FS FS (This rota assumes that the DoT never runs full term):
2(377 + 420*.5 + .15X + .5(X*.52))=
1174 + .82X

These numbers verify that FS ES will still be the best rota for dps at all amounts of AP. Anyone see problems with my math?
#3087SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Stigmata
What really puzzles me as I read through the latter pages is how people seem to think there is some art or skill to playing a shaman.

It is a simple fact that there is no skill involved, we stand there hit 5 keys every 10 seconds and rinse and repeat.

its not complex, there is no magical formula, just be in there at the right time and always dps when it is appropriate.

I guess it may be easier for me to say at the very top of shaman gear, but really, everyone of us knew when we started this and the old thread some 6 months ago that slow/slow was better (pre nerf CD I used blackout, which was fast) just by the WF numbers that were available.

I will end my rambling here.
#3088SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Stigmata
What really puzzles me as I read through the latter pages is how people seem to think there is some art or skill to playing a shaman.

It is a simple fact that there is no skill involved, we stand there hit 5 keys every 10 seconds and rinse and repeat.

its not complex, there is no magical formula, just be in there at the right time and always dps when it is appropriate.

I guess it may be easier for me to say at the very top of shaman gear, but really, everyone of us knew when we started this and the old thread some 6 months ago that slow/slow was better (pre nerf CD I used blackout, which was fast) just by the WF numbers that were available.

I will end my rambling here.
Depends on how you define 'skill'. I consider participating in this topic a version of skill aswell. Because of how WoW works, playing a DPS class requires a minimal amount of effort while actually raiding, but alot more theorycrafting and work beforehand. For me, a Mage who knows how to gear, builds different sets for trash/bosses, uses stopcasting macros, etc is at the top of what he can achieve in terms of DPS. How much of this is actually effort during raids? A minimal amount.
#3089SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Kurisu
Originally Posted by Stigmata
What really puzzles me as I read through the latter pages is how people seem to think there is some art or skill to playing a shaman.

It is a simple fact that there is no skill involved, we stand there hit 5 keys every 10 seconds and rinse and repeat.

its not complex, there is no magical formula, just be in there at the right time and always dps when it is appropriate.

I guess it may be easier for me to say at the very top of shaman gear, but really, everyone of us knew when we started this and the old thread some 6 months ago that slow/slow was better (pre nerf CD I used blackout, which was fast) just by the WF numbers that were available.

I will end my rambling here.
I even remember people in the beginning of TBC (Kalman maybe?) was discouraged because we are so simple to play. People even quit their shamans because of it.

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed
#3090SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
Or maybe it's just better to only ES to keep debuff slot for real DOT's ? p
#3091SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0wocket
Originally Posted by smokey
Or maybe it's just better to only ES to keep debuff slot for real DOT's ? p
correct me if im wrong, but didnt they eliminate the debuff limit?
#3092SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
vorda
Originally Posted by wocket
correct me if im wrong, but didnt they eliminate the debuff limit?
You'r wrong. They buffed it to 40 debuffs, and then added a ton of usefull raid debuffs in TBC (well, added/made more usefull/..)

Last edited by vorda : 09/28/07 at 11:04 PM.
#3093SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
yep 40 is the limit, Debuff - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

Thats why our locks whine when they see a FS on a target^^
#3094SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Squigg
Originally Posted by smokey
yep 40 is the limit, Debuff - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

Thats why our locks whine when they see a FS on a target^^
get more destruction locks.

i dont know how many affliction locks your using, but you should really be using FS
#3095SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Use pDebuffList and you can see quickly if there are under 40 debuffs up. If there are, it's save to use FS. (You also can call for CoR if the locks are being lazy about applying it, which is common.)

When we were raiding Mag I had to use ES/ES but now that our locks have access to T5 they are going destro and I'm safely able to ES/FS.
#3096SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by smokey
yep 40 is the limit, Debuff - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

Thats why our locks whine when they see a FS on a target^^
That should only ever been an issue if you're running with 2 or more Shadowpriests + 3 or so Warlocks. If someone is going to whine about a debuff it would probably be Deep Wounds or something... how are you going to whine about a DoT that actually does decent DPM?

__________________
Originally Posted by Praetorian
I once pointed out that the proper Roman numeral for 500 was D, so they should really rename themselves <Clan DIX>.

That didn't go over too well.
#3097SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Sebudai
You can easily run into the debuff limit with as few as four warlocks/shadow priests.
#3098SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
I've always done a Stormstrike/ES/ES rinse repeat cycle, our rogues use deadly poison and don't have any moonkin or elemental so I always get both stormstrike charges. My ES averages prolly in the region of 850-900 then critting upto 1300-1400ish need to check some WWS logs (I have concussion 5/42/14 spec). We don't run with any scorch spec mages either so never saw any point.

Is the 20% extra damage from stormstrike applied after or before +dmg? Will make a big difference in 2.3 so would like to know.

Last edited by Mox : 09/29/07 at 8:28 AM.
#3099SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Is the 20% extra damage from stormstrike applied after or before +dmg? Will make a big difference in 2.3 so would like to know.
Didnt exactly test it, but I'm almost 100% certain its after damage. Like imp Scorch, Nightfall, etc.
#3100SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
Originally Posted by Stigmata
What really puzzles me as I read through the latter pages is how people seem to think there is some art or skill to playing a shaman.

It is a simple fact that there is no skill involved, we stand there hit 5 keys every 10 seconds and rinse and repeat.

its not complex, there is no magical formula, just be in there at the right time and always dps when it is appropriate.

I guess it may be easier for me to say at the very top of shaman gear, but really, everyone of us knew when we started this and the old thread some 6 months ago that slow/slow was better (pre nerf CD I used blackout, which was fast) just by the WF numbers that were available.

I will end my rambling here.
I couldn't agree more about this sentiment. It's mind numbingly easy to play, which is why I started twisting, because well it gives me something else to do and manage.

The real differences in damage I notice from fight to fight are going to your WFs. Are you getting most of them on your MH or your OH. When your MH WF procs are you getting crits.

That's a large determination of damage and unfortunately apart from gearing the right way and staying on target there is not much else you can do and there will be an element of randomness to enhancement shaman a bit more than some of the other classes, just due to the WF mechanics.
#3101SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0PSGarak
Just a random thought I got: with the new mental quickness giving several hundred spell damage for free, and considering the WF cooldown, would it be better now to use Flametongue on the offhand instead of windfury in 2.3?
#3102SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by PSGarak
Just a random thought I got: with the new mental quickness giving several hundred spell damage for free, and considering the WF cooldown, would it be better now to use Flametongue on the offhand instead of windfury in 2.3?
Let me guess, you didnt bother to read anything of the previous 5-15 pages before sharing this amazing random thought with us?
#3103SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Raziel
I have a problem, i have 1510 ap/135 hit rating/26.70 crit (weapons:dragonmaw and arena s2 mace)and my dps sux in raids vs rogues, locks, sp if i try to nuke more i make to much threat and i must slow down alot(even if i use tranq/wf combination). Any tips?
#3104SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by Raziel
I have a problem, i have 1510 ap/135 hit rating/26.70 crit (weapons:dragonmaw and arena s2 mace)and my dps sux in raids vs rogues, locks, sp if i try to nuke more i make to much threat and i must slow down alot(even if i use tranq/wf combination). Any tips?
Figure out what your tank is doing wrong to put out such terrible TPS and talk with him about it.
#3105SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Skiace
Originally Posted by vorda
Let me guess, you didnt bother to read anything of the previous 5-15 pages before sharing this amazing random thought with us?
Not only has it been discussed in the thread already, but FT in the offhand is actually the FIRST section of the OP now.
#3106SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Maax
I have 2 questions about flametongue, I was dissussing it with a guildy and he didn't know the answer to either question:

1. At what weapon speeds do you reach the minimum and maximum value of the damage range for flametoungue?
2. Do haste effects changing the speed of the weapon change the flametongue value to be based on the new speed? or does it use the original speed to determine it?

Sorry if this is answered earlier in the thread, I looked for it in the OP and tried the search function but no dice.

__________________
Devs: Our nerfs will block out the sun!
Druids: Then we will tank in the shade.
#3107SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Nite_Moogle
1. 1.0 and 4.0 (the base value listed is DPS).
2. It uses the original speed.
3. It's still not worth using over Windfury, stop thinking about it.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#3108SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0everwatch
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
1. 1.0 and 4.0 (the base value listed is DPS).
2. It uses the original speed.
3. It's still not worth using over Windfury, stop thinking about it.
It will be interesting to see the results of actual in game use when it hits PTR, and to then see the actual dps difference.

__________________
[Raid] [Aslowfatboy]: when I pvp, I roll my forehead across my keyboard and the entire battleground dies
#3109SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by everwatch
It will be interesting to see the results of actual in game use when it hits PTR, and to then see the actual dps difference.
It really won't. Flametongue only gets 77 DPS from 1000 spell damage, and only half in the offhand, and if you aren't getting 40 DPS on your offhand Windfury procs then you are doing it wrong. There is simply no competitive alternative to Windfury until they change the mechanics of the other weapon buffs.

__________________
en·hance –verb: to raise to a higher degree; intensify; magnify. —Related forms: en·hance·ment, noun
"Enchance" is not a word; therefore "Enchancement" is not a word. "Shammy" is also not a word; it is a phonetic pronunciation of the cloth you use to dry your car.
#3110SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
PVP cape S3 WoW Forums -> Tom Chilton owned my face!

[Melee DPS Cloak]
+34 Stamina
+20 Critical Strike rating
+20 Resilience rating
+46 Attack Power
+112 Armor Penetration (0,30 aep)

= 119,6 AEP

Not bad at all if u ask me :

[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] = 143,8 AEP
[Thalassian Wildercloak] = 124 AEP


Very nice cape, easy to get. All melee PvP set will have penetration armor and their 4/5 bonus will be changed (bye -1s with SS), I wont be surprised if our S3 set is better for PVE than our T6, unless this one is changed.

WoW Forums -> Season 3 shoulders 2000 rating is stupid
#3111SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Bullworth
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It really won't. Flametongue only gets 77 DPS from 1000 spell damage, and only half in the offhand, and if you aren't getting 40 DPS on your offhand Windfury procs then you are doing it wrong. There is simply no competitive alternative to Windfury until they change the mechanics of the other weapon buffs.
Since when is Flametongue damage reduced due to the offhand penalty? I might be wrong but I thought the only weapon imbue that suffered from DW off-hand penalty was Rockbiter.

PS. At least when I did a simple test on the live servers, there was no penalty.
#3112SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It really won't. Flametongue only gets 77 DPS from 1000 spell damage, and only half in the offhand, and if you aren't getting 40 DPS on your offhand Windfury procs then you are doing it wrong. There is simply no competitive alternative to Windfury until they change the mechanics of the other weapon buffs.

Uhh you're wrong. While WF on a slow weapon will still be better given same dps on the weapons but different speeds, FT on a fast weapon (ideally 1.5 or faster) will be viable. Something like the dagger from prince with FT WILL outdps a lvl70 2.6 speed green (and probably even 71dps blues and runic hammer) with the change. When you factor in Misery, lock curse, and imp scorch FT gets a pretty decent bonus. Of course everything is just theorycrafting right now and will require ingame testing, but it has shown that it will be viable, though slow with WF will be best for min-maxing.

__________________
#3113SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0smokey
Maybe they changed the coef of 10% applied from spell power too, anyway we have to wait for the PTR for test.
#3114SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Bullworth
I thought the only weapon imbue that suffered from DW off-hand penalty was Rockbiter.
Well, WF obviously does aswell. If I had to guess, all imbues do.
#3115SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nisall
I'm not sure about the magic damage imbues. Looking at rogue poisons they don't suffer from OH penalties.
#3116SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Nisall
I'm not sure about the magic damage imbues. Looking at rogue poisons they don't suffer from OH penalties.
Just tested, you'r correct. Frostbrand and FT dont suffer OH penalties. (should'v just done this when we started this subject ).
#3117SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by vorda
Well, WF obviously does aswell. If I had to guess, all imbues do.
Windfury does not suffer the offhand damage penalty. The weapon itself does but you still receive full bonus for the Windfury buff.
#3118SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shery
First of all I would like to thanks the effort made to explain a lots of interesting facts about the shaman Enhancement build in this thread.

I would also like to apologise if the simple doubts im exposing were already answered before... but the thread is quite long and i cannot seem to be able to find it :s

Basically I have 2 question. In the OP its said for the non-orcs Shamans that "You will want to choose maces or fist weapons since current itemization gives bonus skill to these but not axes. The first 5 weapon skill is worth 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge. Consider picking up a [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] to gain this 5 weapon skill; it's better than the best BT belts because of it.". As I understand that... Should we get [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] even if we aren´t using Axes? Are we talking about the five points that go from 350 skill to 355 skill?

Currently I have Fool´s Bane as MH. Lots of ppl has been saying to me lately that I should get The Decapitator... beeing it an axe; is this true?

Thx a lot in advance
#3119SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Br0k3n
Hit cap.

I saw that we may not need as much hit rating as a rogue, but what would be considered the red-line of it? I am currently trying to ween myself away from hit rating (I'm still at 220+), but I am afraid to break my Desolation set and lose the +35 Hit Rating that comes with it, plus the hit that's on each piece. My guild is just preparing to do Gruul, so my gear options are basically do I stay with desolation, or move for Ripflayer Leggings and the Beastmaw Pauldrons? Apologies if this was asked already.
#3120SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Br0k3n
I saw that we may not need as much hit rating as a rogue, but what would be considered the red-line of it? I am currently trying to ween myself away from hit rating (I'm still at 220+), but I am afraid to break my Desolation set and lose the +35 Hit Rating that comes with it, plus the hit that's on each piece. My guild is just preparing to do Gruul, so my gear options are basically do I stay with desolation, or move for Ripflayer Leggings and the Beastmaw Pauldrons? Apologies if this was asked already.
You didnt read the first post. Go do it.
#3121SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Hamilburg
Originally Posted by Br0k3n
I saw that we may not need as much hit rating as a rogue, but what would be considered the red-line of it? I am currently trying to ween myself away from hit rating (I'm still at 220+), but I am afraid to break my Desolation set and lose the +35 Hit Rating that comes with it, plus the hit that's on each piece. My guild is just preparing to do Gruul, so my gear options are basically do I stay with desolation, or move for Ripflayer Leggings and the Beastmaw Pauldrons? Apologies if this was asked already.

The Armory

His raid numbers are also *quite* competitive.
#3122SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Br0k3n
Originally Posted by Hamilburg
The Armory

His raid numbers are also *quite* competitive.
Wow, really low hit, but if the math works why question it? Alright, thanks much.
#3123SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by Shery
First of all I would like to thanks the effort made to explain a lots of interesting facts about the shaman Enhancement build in this thread.

I would also like to apologise if the simple doubts im exposing were already answered before... but the thread is quite long and i cannot seem to be able to find it :s

Basically I have 2 question. In the OP its said for the non-orcs Shamans that "You will want to choose maces or fist weapons since current itemization gives bonus skill to these but not axes. The first 5 weapon skill is worth 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge. Consider picking up a [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] to gain this 5 weapon skill; it's better than the best BT belts because of it.". As I understand that... Should we get [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] even if we aren´t using Axes? Are we talking about the five points that go from 350 skill to 355 skill?

Currently I have Fool´s Bane as MH. Lots of ppl has been saying to me lately that I should get The Decapitator... beeing it an axe; is this true?

Thx a lot in advance
If you have it available to you, you should get the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] because you are not using Axes. The belt gives +skill ratiing to every one hand weapon with the exception of Axes. So the fact your using Maces is good, you can also use Fist weapons. And yes they are talking about 5 points that will take you from 350 to 355. As far as the Decapitator and Fool's Bane go, I was actually much happier using the Fool's Bane over the Decapitator, but I had very high Crit for a long time so I was gaining more from the Fool's Bane overall. Pick it up and play around with them, see which one works best for you.

Another item that goes along with the belt decently, although I believe the Tier gloves are better ( I haven't run the numbers yet ), are these: [Gloves of the Searing Grip].

Last edited by Aeolian : 09/30/07 at 12:24 PM.
#3124SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Tqq
Anyone think I sacrificed a little to much armor to get my crit so high?
#3125SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0onibox
Hi guys is my first post here.. I have a NOOB question.. whats is the best Cycle to get my DPS max on raids? I was a rogue but i reroll to shamy, i already have a nice gear and all right enchants, but i cant do dps with my shamy. Someone can help me? Here is my armory: The Armory

Thank for your help and best regards



Irontaker/Hatebringer
#3126SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by onibox
Hi guys is my first post here.. I have a NOOB question.. whats is the best Cycle to get my DPS max on raids? I was a rogue but i reroll to shamy, i already have a nice gear and all right enchants, but i cant do dps with my shamy. Someone can help me? Here is my armory: The Armory

Thank for your help and best regards



Irontaker/Hatebringer
Yeah, that defenitly is a 'noob' question.

First: read the first post of this topic.
Secondly: Give me a list of all the spells you use as enhance shaman when dpsing
Finally: Notice how all of them (besides totem twisting) are on a cooldown. What does this tell you about 'cycles'?

Dont go post stupid questions here if you are not going to take the time to think about the problem yourself abit.

Also, dont sign your posts.
#3127SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Onibox: I'm pretty sure its all in the first post, but generally its Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock rinse and repeat. This is if your not twisting.

Don't sign your posts, and try reading the first post of threads you decide to 'contribute' to.

Tq: No.
#3128SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nobunda
Had a interesting run in with I guess a fellow shaman (makes me cringe cause this guy was... well just one of those people that scare you when you think "There are really people out there like that").

Dont know who he was, a troll for sure cause he wouldn't bother to give me his Mains name. Nonetheless this person gave me the complete rundown on how to play a shaman using this place as his bible of course. Used my armory as a basis of his discussion (I guess armory is the best way to see what people are rolling with every minute of the game... learn something new everyday /sigh ) and to top it off, was very unprofessional about it. Now not being professional about the conversation wasn't a big surprise cause its World of warcraft, epeens can get stretched to there finest here. But nonetheless I figured a lil definition was in order... since some people lose site of people that believe everything they read... and those that actually see for themselves.

Theory - The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In common usage, people often use the word theory to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis. This common usage of theory leads to the common but misguided statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory."

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behavior are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.
Now heres my question, I understand the fact that patch 2.3 isnt here yet. Am I the only one in this world currently testing different weapon/gear combinations to see if WF/FT or WF/FB is gonna be viable? I know you cant actually see the numbers for yourself but other things play into the effects like FT (weapon speed effects the amount of dam, etc.. that kinda stuff)

On a added note, because I really enjoyed the lude conversation I had with this person. He ran down everything that can be read here. I would like to say... awesome compilation of stuff and its all a very good read. It has helped my dps tremendously. Great job to those that have made this information viable by testing it and for putting it all in one place. Thank you. As well sorry for posting the definition... just kinda felt it was necessary in my own mind.
#3129SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Your not the only one currently testing (or at least considering testing when the PTR comes on line) the viability of WF/FT or WF/FB or whatever other combination you care to come up with, but as of right now WF/WF will continue to offer the best overall DPS in most raid situations. Granted there are several debuffs available in raids that would increase the damage output of Flametongue, fast weapons would allow for constant procs and with the increased spell damage it could become a starting point, but I very much doubt it will overtake Windfury in pure DPS out put. Yes, these are mainly my own assumptions and observations, when the test realm comes online I will be doing my own testing to see what works.
#3130SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nobunda
Originally Posted by Aeolian
Your not the only one currently testing (or at least considering testing when the PTR comes on line) the viability of WF/FT or WF/FB or whatever other combination you care to come up with, but as of right now WF/WF will continue to offer the best overall DPS in most raid situations. Granted there are several debuffs available in raids that would increase the damage output of Flametongue, fast weapons would allow for constant procs and with the increased spell damage it could become a starting point, but I very much doubt it will overtake Windfury in pure DPS out put. Yes, these are mainly my own assumptions and observations, when the test realm comes online I will be doing my own testing to see what works.
By no means am I using wf/ft, etc in raids... just on various mobs elsewhere. I have seen first sight that WF/WF is the best combo and still continue to use it. You have answered my question.. thanks.
#3131SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Shery
Originally Posted by Aeolian
If you have it available to you, you should get the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] because you are not using Axes. The belt gives +skill ratiing to every one hand weapon with the exception of Axes. So the fact your using Maces is good, you can also use Fist weapons. And yes they are talking about 5 points that will take you from 350 to 355. As far as the Decapitator and Fool's Bane go, I was actually much happier using the Fool's Bane over the Decapitator, but I had very high Crit for a long time so I was gaining more from the Fool's Bane overall. Pick it up and play around with them, see which one works best for you.

Another item that goes along with the belt decently, although I believe the Tier gloves are better ( I haven't run the numbers yet ), are these: [Gloves of the Searing Grip].
Thx a lot for the help Aeolian; I´ll try messing around with both and boost a little my crit for the Fool´s bane.

I had my eyes on those gloves too... in fact I think they are a great way of getting that +5 skill on maces before I can get my hands on the belt (my Guild hasnt killed Vashj just yet but we´re nearly there ). A shame they are a random trash drop form Kara :p

Pd: its a shame this itemization thing doesnt let us use Axes if we arent Orcs... i really love the way the axes look on my Shamy

Last edited by Shery : 09/30/07 at 1:30 PM.
#3132SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
NM, the problem is the 1.5/1.51 calculation.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/

Last edited by Tornhoof : 09/30/07 at 2:12 PM.
#3133SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by Shery
Thx a lot for the help Aeolian; I´ll try messing around with both and boost a little my crit for the Fool´s bane.

I had my eyes on those gloves too... in fact I think they are a great way of getting that +5 skill on maces before I can get my hands on the belt (my Guild hasnt killed Vashj just yet but we´re nearly there ). A shame they are a random trash drop form Kara :p

Pd: its a shame this itemization thing doesnt let us use Axes if we arent Orcs... i really love the way the axes look on my Shamy
Searing Grip are from Al'ar, I don't recall what the trash gloves are called.
#3134SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shery
You´re right rava, my mistake. I was confusing them with this ones Grips of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft

Quite similar anyway ^^
#3135SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Shery
Currently I have Fool´s Bane as MH. Lots of ppl has been saying to me lately that I should get The Decapitator... beeing it an axe; is this true?
The Decapitator's definitely an upgrade from Fool's Bane. Get one, but keep your Fool's Bane banked in case you pick up +mace skill itemization. (Keep in mind we don't know what will be in ZA.)
#3136SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ fangar
I know a friend of mine ran a few sims with Decap vs Fools Bane and Fools Bane came out a tiny bit better using Yo's Sim. I didn't question it at the time and just figured the stats from FB outweighed it.

I'll have to model it, but it was interesting and unexpected.

Can we just ignore the questions clearly asking about stuff that has been discussed?
#3137SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Pitbuller
You have to calculate +3dps from [ The Decapitator ] use effect.
#3138SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Can people please stop sending me PMs about whether X or Y item is better? I honestly don't give a shit about your armory, and 90% of you that are asking me questions are way ahead of me in progression anyways.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3139SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
Poor Malan, thats what you get for starting a legendary thread.

Anyways, like I said, the Decapitator would be an upgrade, but my personal stance is that the Fool's Bane offers much more to you then the Decapitator and you don't lose out on much not using the Decapitator.
#3140SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Shery
My intent wasnt about asking if X weapon was better than Y weapon. it was merely a doubt about the +skill as I didnt fully understand it in the OP. My apoligies if I brought up something already discussed in the thread and thx a lot for the help
#3141SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Shery
My intent wasnt about asking if X weapon was better than Y weapon. it was merely a doubt about the +skill as I didnt fully understand it in the OP. My apoligies if I brought up something already discussed in the thread and thx a lot for the help
I wasn't referring to you, you didn't send me a PM.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3142SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Aeolian
And he wasn't referring to you Malan. He was talking to me, and I believe that the Decapitator and Fool's Bane discussion was referring to something else. So.. everyone is confused.
#3143SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Chutoi
I'll apologize in advance for this next post, but I'll ask it anyway.

I have 2 very fast weapons (bad I know). I understand that a slow offhand will increase dps as it eats fewer windfuries. However, I don't understand why a slow mainhand is good, unless it's to increase the size of the windfury crits (ie, large damage on slower weapons). Is that the thought process? Does a fast offhand really do all that badly? It seems like it would be more likely to proc a windfury once you're out of the 3 second internal cooldown.

At any rate, while I'm working on a new 2.6 speed arena weapon for my offhand, which would be more effective:

Runic Hammer: 83.5dps, 16 stam, 50 AP, and 2.4 speed

or

High Warlord's Cleaver 71.7 dps, 18 stam, 8 hit rating, 26 ap, 13 crit strike, 9 resiliance, and 2.6 speed?

Does the additional .2 speed offset a 12 dps difference? I just don't understand the model.

Sorry for the dumb questions, guys. I apologize for being slow!

Chutoi
#3144SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
The reason is that with flurry, haste procs, instants, etc, you can be pretty certain you'll proc WF very fast once you'r out of the CD. Do you want that WF proc to come from a weapon with a 170-330 dmg weapon or a 100-190 dmg weapon?

About the weapons, my money is on the runic hammer, but just run Yo!'s sim (linked in the first post).
#3145SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
Its not just the damage range on the weapon that matters for why a slow weapon is better, it's also because of the AP multiplier. 2.6 is a better multiplier than 1.8 is in terms of converting the AP into actual damage, which is another reason why slow weapons are better.

__________________
#3146SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
Originally Posted by fangar
I know a friend of mine ran a few sims with Decap vs Fools Bane and Fools Bane came out a tiny bit better using Yo's Sim. I didn't question it at the time and just figured the stats from FB outweighed it.

I'll have to model it, but it was interesting and unexpected.

Can we just ignore the questions clearly asking about stuff that has been discussed?
Yeah, the decap came out 1dps lower than Fool's Bane in the sims I ran not counting the use function. That being said I just can't see using the throw function all that often, and it is on a three minute cooldown.
#3147SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
Why would you not use the throw function every single time it's up? It's like an earth shock with no mana cost.
#3148SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
To be honest, I had the decap for about a day before I decided I was tired of respeccing so often and decided to finish my second shaman as enhancement with blacksmithing and keep Vinnie as elemental. So I just didn't have time to figure out if the use would reset the swing timer, cause a gcd, or some other goofiness. That and it just never occurred to me to use it point blank. Curses for my first character being a hunter, and their dead zone.
#3149SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0david0925
I'm actually a bit curious about how good the 5 piece Cataclysm set is (5% extra to Flurry haste). Since aside from the Helm and the gloves, there are alternatives to the other 3 slots that are better, so I am wondering about a value (intuitive or quantative) of this bonus, then I can calculate to look at whether its worth it to go for it or not?
#3150SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Unaz
Originally Posted by VinnieJones
To be honest, I had the decap for about a day before I decided I was tired of respeccing so often and decided to finish my second shaman as enhancement with blacksmithing and keep Vinnie as elemental. So I just didn't have time to figure out if the use would reset the swing timer, cause a gcd, or some other goofiness. That and it just never occurred to me to use it point blank. Curses for my first character being a hunter, and their dead zone.

The use is instant, and I never noticed it resetting my swing timer. I macroed it to my Stormstrike like thus:

/use The Decapitator
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
#3151SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0rava
Originally Posted by david0925
I'm actually a bit curious about how good the 5 piece Cataclysm set is (5% extra to Flurry haste). Since aside from the Helm and the gloves, there are alternatives to the other 3 slots that are better, so I am wondering about a value (intuitive or quantative) of this bonus, then I can calculate to look at whether its worth it to go for it or not?
5*15.76*1.4*flurryuptime% for rough numbers.
#3152SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Galeyra
I got a beginner's question.
I know shocks dont reset your swing timer, but a friend of mine recently told me, that if you shock when your swingtimer is ready, you just shock, and the autohit doesnt hit and is lost.
I tried to reproduce this by shocking exactly when i would be hitting, but the attacks hits always, just the swing animation often got lost.
So, is my friend wrong? And please help me to disprove him, because he insists on his opinion.
Thanks for your reply
#3153SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Sounds like you already solved the problem. Show him a combat log.
#3154SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Nisall
I think you are correct in saying that only the animation gets lost. It is very easy to prove to your friend just take a screen shot of your combat log with timestamps showing that your swing and shock damage happen at the same time

EDIT: Too slow
#3155SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Can anyone provide the math for Unleashed Rage uptime in terms of Crit Rating, for both DW and 2H scenarios?
#3156SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Rob
For DW it's something like 97%+ in any raid buffed scenario so it's pretty irrelevant.

For 2H I would think it would be something like:
% Up = 1 - (1-Crit Rating)^(10/Weapon Speed)

So for WS 3.8 and CR 30%
% Up = 1 - (1 - .3)^(10/3.8) = 1 - .7^2.63 = 1 - .39 = 61%

You know, I just realized this is wrong since I didn't consider Flurry in the Weapon Speed term -- and this is why closed-form models are so hard to create for Shamans. I'll post it anyways as a starting point.
#3157SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0VinnieJones
Originally Posted by Unaz
The use is instant, and I never noticed it resetting my swing timer. I macroed it to my Stormstrike like thus:

/use The Decapitator
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
Hey, that is excellent. Thank you.
#3158SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0
Edited onundefined
oogg
No Text.

Last edited by oogg : 10/03/07 at 5:17 PM. Reason: removed post since someone else clarified formulas
#3159SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Areus
One thing that may need to be fixed as well, is that for DW, the WF proc% is 36% outside the 3s rule. The 2h would still have a 20% proc rate though.
#3160SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dyamito
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.


Thanks,
The Resto Shaman
#3161SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0vorda
Originally Posted by Dyamito
Ring enchants, was wondering what is best for dps. I see some enhancement shamans with 12 spell damage to rings, with 2.3 coming out and upping our spell damage, I have a feeling that isn't the best. 2 damage to rings seems good, but for some reason I think having an altogether 8str, 8agi, 8stam, etc would just be overall better for dps in pve. Just was wondering your thoughts.


Thanks,
The Resto Shaman
Use the search function, dont sign your posts.

(I should make that my signature)
#3162SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Dyamito
Originally Posted by vorda
Use the search function, dont sign your posts.

(I should make that my signature)
Yeah didn't see search till just now, are we not allowed to sign our posts?
#3163SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0♦ Malan
Its discouraged. You have a big huge profile to the left of the post content that tells us who you are.
#3164SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.0Aknazer
WF totem and warrior...WTF

Alright now I know that this has been beat into the ground and WF>GoA for warriors and non dagger rogues (am yet to see anything convincing saying WF>GoA for dagger rogues post nerf), but I was flipping through WWS reports of Lurker and this is what I found

Bood - WWS - 516 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 630 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 652 dps with WF

Now that first attempt was our first time to down Lurker which is why I think its so much lower than the other 2, but in that last attempt he even had a Bloodmoon as opposed to the Lunar Cresent version for the first 2 kills. I would have expected his DPS to be much higher with WF over GoA. Sadly the rogues didn't take off their poisons even though I told them I wanted to test out WF to see the dps differences so I can't compare their dps of GoA vs WF, but Conobum (our best dagger rogue) did lose about 50dps by not having GoA.

And the reason I normally have GoA down is because our group makeup is normally a feral druid, the war (he's a 33/28 2h slam spec), 2 dagger rogues, and me. Has anyone else seen things like this or have WWS reports of a war using GoA and then using WF on the same boss to compare the difference?
#3165SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Couple random WWS report dont proof anything but bad fluke. In second try he did more slams(42) and less autos(53) than third try slams(37), auto+wf(63). Some how he have lots of misses at last try 7-10% vs 3% misses at second.
#3166SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.

Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better.
#3167SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2evilution
Originally Posted by Malan
One thing we have still not addressed is the Stormstrike cycling. We need some modeling and/or testing to determine if the 'use it when its lit' or 'use it only when a WF cooldown has ended' is the best methodology. We'll need to know that the supposedly increased windfury procs are going to offset the 5% (or more) loss of Stormstrike damage by not using it every 10 sec.

Edit - to clarify, we've had many people talk about using the "wait till I'm off WF CD" method, but nobody has provide any sort of modeling or testing numbers to actually back it up. All we have so far is anecdotal stories.
Has anyone (Yo! perhaps) built this into their modeling programs? I have tried to search through the thread and could not find an answer.

It would be interesting to have a switch to turn this on and off within the model.
#3168SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
He's planning to do so, its a grayed out option on one of the panes. Just not implemented yet.

Simulator stuff is great, but we really need to grab the "why" of it so that I can present it in the article. Telling someone 'its better because the sim says so' will still generate a lot of responses of "well I do it this way, and its better."
#3169SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
Makes perfect sense to me that you're not seeing the gains you'd think you would. He's an Arms warrior and they took a heavy hit from the totem change, and most importantly he didn't use any "On next hit" attacks (Heroic Strike) and used Slam instead. Slam will not proc WF, and neither will Mortal Strike. So basically you put WF down and he got his procs only from his auto attacks.

Summary - your warrior needs to learn to use Windfury better.
Correct me if I'm wrong but Heroic Strike consumes your auto-attack? So the number of chances to proc windfury stays the same.

Also, many warriors don't use heroic strike because it has a strong, positive threat modifier on it. So if he's threat capped (which I can't imagine he is with that dps number) then it would make sense for him not to be using it.
#3170SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Sure but Slam resets the swing timer, consumes rage, and does not proc WF.
#3171SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ fangar
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.

It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like:

Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam

As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse.

Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal.

Last edited by fangar : 10/02/07 at 11:08 AM.
#3172SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2ryakaz
Can [Fel Edged Battleaxe] be better than [Runic Hammer] for DPS because I can put [Bold Living Ruby].
#3173SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
Read the first post.
Figure out if there are ANY tools linked there that may be able to answer your question.
#3174SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
Originally Posted by fangar
It's an interesting conversation and probably edges into the Arms warrior discussion thread. Prior to the WF Nerf Slam was without a doubt the best use of rage and effective DPS an arms warrior could do. If timed properly (just like a hunter rotation because of swing time resets) it far outshone using heroic strikes.

It would be interesting to see if there is any appreciable difference now with the WF nerf when working in HS. My thinking would be that Slam would still win out and the rotation will probably look like:

Slam, Auto, MS, Auto, Slam

As for the logs up top. You will notice differences in the set-ups that would tell an incomplete story. If you look at the parse where the warrior had WF you will see that he Deathwished just once vs 2 in the second parse and 3 in the third parse.

Extra attack + more rage (for more damage) will always beat a couple percent more crit and sharpening stones IMO all else being equal.

That is about the rotation that is used only with WW worked in when MS is on CD and I think an extra reg attack when both MS and WW are on CD (happens every third rotation). Also he went with this spec for the extra 4% physical damage talent which helps all phyiscal damage dealers
#3175SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Some napkin math on that follows using the average hit values from Loading...

No slam, no HS:
Per 3.7 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) = 945.6
255 dps

Slam, assuming .8 average swing timer disruption (improved slam):
Per 4.5 seconds: 788 + (788*.2) + 979 = 1924.6
427 DPS

Heroic strike:
Per 3.7 seconds: 988 + (788*.2) = 1145.6
309 DPS

Slam is still superior by quite a bit if it's used correctly, and it is considerably less threat, and doesn't take away the rage generated by the white hit.
#3176SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Redanger
Re: Ashtounge Talisman of Vision

In response to what the OP has written:

Originally Posted by Malan
[Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] Update - Theory on why this happens! This appears to be either bugged or have a bad tooltip, its actually having nearly an 89% proc rate, which would make the benefit closer to +245 AP over time, making it a clear winner for your trinket slot.

Since stormstrike hits with both weapons, this will probably casue it to proc almost every time you use stormstrike assuming the following: It probably counts each weapon's hit as a chance to proc the trinket (a stormstrike going off for each of the weapon's swings).
#3177SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Redanger
In response to what the OP has written:
Since stormstrike hits with both weapons, this will probably casue it to proc almost every time you use stormstrike assuming the following: It probably counts each weapon's hit as a chance to proc the trinket (a stormstrike going off for each of the weapon's swings).
Thanks...? If you followed the link where it says "theory on why this happens" you pretty much get the answer to this.

Edit - btw, 2 melee swings does not add up to an 89% proc rate, but if you follow that link you'll understand whats really going on.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"

Last edited by Malan : 10/02/07 at 12:39 PM.
#3178SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Disquette
I think I found another interesting thing about that, based on some playing around with a mod I'm writing. When you look for the event "Unit_Spellcast_Succeeded" with "Stormstrike" as the spell name argument, I see that it registers three times to your game client.

Apparently one event is for the casting of stormstrike if you're in range, on an attackable mob, facing the right way, etc, and then one event for each of the actual melee attacks.

Edit - I know this doesn't change anything, but I thought it was interesting that Stormstrike is a 3-event action instead of 2.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#3179SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
Originally Posted by Redanger
In response to what the OP has written:

Since stormstrike hits with both weapons, this will probably casue it to proc almost every time you use stormstrike assuming the following: It probably counts each weapon's hit as a chance to proc the trinket (a stormstrike going off for each of the weapon's swings).
Welcome to a month ago. Go re-read the OP and click on the link he references in "Theory on why this happens"

Edit: Dammit - Malan you are fast...

__________________
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
#3180SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by fangar
Edit: Dammit - Malan you are fast...
My job at the moment requires very little time out of my day at the office so I troll heavily to stay awake. Anyways I reworded that trinket description so that its clear that its 4 chances to proc on every SS.

Edit - Disquette, would that not be true for pretty much any special attack? I'd wager that Mortal Strike is a 3 event as well, one for the range check, etc, one for the hit and one for the debuff.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3181SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2T.K.
Ok, so...as new people is flooding over and over again the foruns with questions crystal-clear answered at the front page, i made what i'm trying to model as the Enhance for Dummies. All this info IS at the front page into some or other way, and i'm just trying to make it into a more obvious way to people read and stop asking what is already answered. Malam, Disquette, Thornhoof, Yo and so many others put effort and time developing what we have today, so please, take your time to read at least a summarized version.

WF – Short term for Windfury. Most of the time used as Windfury Attack. If you can't recognize it, quit now and create a warlock. The BEST, by all means, over Flametongue, over Frostband, over Rockbiter, weapon inbue in-game at current 2.2 patch and future 2.3 patch, due to proccing mechanics of itens and game itself. That means that although Flametongue could come close to WF dps in 2.3, WF proc mechanics and cheer AP compression makes it far better desirable to use into high-end content.
A point should be made, though, if you feel good using Flametongue, even in 2.2 knowing you're gimping your own dps doing so, that's ok. Yes, that's ok. You pay for your game and for your fun time. Stick with it and be happy, because that's what the games goes for, but don't go in theorycraft foruns with people taking their time to test over and over again stuff to reach the finest and most close to reality class mechanics and knowledge, bitching how we would be wrong about praying about WF or forbiding the use of something like flametongue.

WF cooldown – Internal WF cooldown. Means that no WF proc can happen twice or more into a 3 sec interval. In other words, means that once WF procs, you have to wait 3 seconds so it can proc again. This is shared with both weapons (if Dwing), wich means if one hand procs it, the other will have to wait together with the hand that procced it for 3 secs so it can proc again.

Flurry – Core haste ability of shammies. Haste the next attacks after a crit. That means that the more up, the more attacks you output and so the more dps you do. DUH! This makes a link to a very often question: “How much crit do i need?” Enough for Flurry uptime higher than 90%. PERIOD.

UR - Short of Unleashed Rage. The aura we provide after a crit that increases melee AP by 10% and should be up all the time.

Weapons – Slow/Slow with duo-WF = MAX dps possible for an enhancement shaman.
Slow/Slow with WF/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Fast with WF/FT = Sucky dps
Fast/Fast with WF/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Slow with FT/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Fast with FT/FT = Sucky dps
Fast/Fast with FT/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Slow with WF/RB = Sucky dps
Slow/Fast with WF/RB = Sucky dps
Fast/Fast with WF/RB = Sucky dps
Pos 2.3
Slow/Slow with duo-WF = MAX dps possible for an enhancement shaman.
Slow/Slow with WF/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Fast with WF/FT = Usable, but not optimal
Fast/Fast with WF/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Slow with FT/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Fast with FT/FT = Sucky dps
Fast/Fast with FT/FT = Sucky dps
Slow/Slow with WF/RB = Sucky dps
Slow/Fast with WF/RB = Sucky dps
Fast/Fast with WF/RB = Sucky dps

Armor – Equivalency Points are ratings or weights given to each atribute so you can calculate the item power or level. This is an all around value and can differ a bit. Do note that this may vary based on the level of your gear:

STR – 2,1 points
AGI – 2,0 points
STA – 0,35 points (This is totally personal and once you hit the min health for bosses it shouldn't matter anyway)
Crit Rating – 2,0 points
Hit Rating – 1,43 point
Haste Rating – 1,48 point
Armor Penetration – 0,30 point
My ratings may differ because as i said, depends on gear and personal preference.

Breakdown:

STR – Increases the cheer power of the attacks. Get as much as you can considering the AEP equivalence. Rate -> 1 STR to 2 AP;
AGI – Increases crit rating and dodge rating mainly. As the actual crit cap, this should be stacked as much as possible, considering the AEP values. Repeating, there is NO set value for AGI . Get as much as u can considering the AEP values for your gear. Rate -> 25 AGI to 1% crit;
STA – Increases Health. If you die you can't dps. Get as much as you need to stay alive and that's it. Rate -> 1 STA to 8 Hit Points (Check please);
Crit Rating – Increases crit chance. NO set value to achieve. Get as much as you can to increase Flurry and UR uptime. Considering AEP values for your gear, get as much as possible. RATE -> 21 crit rating to 1% crit;
Hit Rating – Don't get mislead into this. We DO need it, but should NOT look after it. Contrary to rogues, we should approach this as a bonus stat in the way that the amount you get of it is the amount that your gear comes with. “WHAT?!?!” I'll explain: Try to gear yourself looking for the other stats, like STR, AGI, Crit and such, and if the gear you spent your dkp on or win the roll or whatever has hit rating, much better. Do not look after this, but don't refuse to use something that have it. THERE IS NOOOOOO, and i mean NOOOOOOOO set value of hit you should aim. Again, there is NOOOOOOOO such thing as a set value of hit to be aimed at. We have plenty of well succeded shammies with as low as 70 hit rating at end gear and of shammies with close to 200 hit rating, so just don't plan your gear around hit. It will come by anyway. RATE -> 15,8 hit rating to 1% hit (?). Just to make sure people understand: THERE...IS...NOOOOOO...SET...VALUE...OF...HIT...TO...AIM...AT!!!!!!
Haste Rating – This used to be very decent at shammy dps, with some high-end geared shammies replying very good results stacking haste gear BUT after 2.2, melee and spell haste were normalized and balanced around and melee haste got nerfed. It is still a powerfull stat and can improve your dps depending the level of your gear, but is no more the ancient god it was once was. Currently, it is valued at quite the same as hit rating. Considering it's AEP value, you should not look after this trying to maximize your gear around this anymore. Once again, gear up with the other main stats as STR, AGI, Crit rating and such and if this come together much better. RATE -> 15,8 haste rating to 1% haste;
Armor Penetration – Our gear don't have it and as such the only pieces that would give us that will be trinkets, necks and some off-tier gear (quite don't remember all them right now). This is yet not fully and extensively discussed and tested, mainly due to it's rare and dificult aspect for shammies to get it compared to warriors and rogues that most gears come with. There's a level of how much stacking this is still worth points, as once the boss/mob reaches 0 armor, it does nothing more to your dps. Somewhat personal choice on this, as some people prefer raw stats than this, while others feel good using it. Once you have access to gear with this you should more than enough be able to judge if it's good or not to you anyway.


Mail Vs. Leather
Being hybrids at WoW means that Blizz doesn't quite know what we really need as gears stats. Period. People could scream at me, yell, post thousands of thousands of paragraphs saying how i'm so retardly wrong about this, but it is like that. If this were not true, we wouldn't have Mp5 into out enhance set, nether would have our T5 shoulders averaging lower than T4 shoulders and so on. This is true again, when we consider the ammount of shammies that uses or used any leather piece because there's no better mail for the slot at that level of gear he was at.
This is, and by no means i'll fight to make people change their minds, totally personal choice, but a few considerations should be made:

Mitigation: Some players don't roll on leather saying that mail increases their mitigation and so their chance to survive. Most of the time, if not all the time, AoE unavoidable damage of all bosses are element-type based, and as such, wouldn't matter how much armor you got. If you're being hit frequently in raids by armor-mitigated damage and mail/leather dif is making a diff for you, you're doing something wrong. Very wrong. Almost all bosses after Karahzan will one shot one character not in plate-like gear, so, being a dps class, your focus should be on dps and as such, sometimes mail may be not the best case for this.

Hybrid role: Once again, players may choose to get mail gear sometimes, even not being as close to leather pieces dps-wise, because of the INT/MP5 on it. Depending on their style of play, they prefer to have larger pools of mana, saying they need it to heal their raid and such. Not getting into if this should or should not be our focus, INT/MP5 gets points spent into it that are spent into strictly dps-oriented stats into leather pieces, and as such, most of the time, a leather piece of the same level of a mail will provide higher AEP than a mail counterpiece. I should add that many shamans have being using leather gear succesfully, even while shocking and totem twisting, as long as a decent mana rotation is performed.

Competition: Sometimes, shammies can't roll or don't like roll on mail, because of the feeling of them stealing the rogue's gear. This does not hold true, doesn't matter at what level of progression we're talking about. As a raid, the shammy provides much more to rogues than they could provide to the shammy. That alone should be enough reason to let it equaly be rolled. There's the argument that rogues can only use leather while shammies can go mail. They don't realize, though, that as far as current itemization goes, there's no specific gear for these speccs, and as such, they have an even smaller amount of gear possible to choose from. Specifically the shaman needs gear to keep at least the minimum competitive dps and survivability, be that using leather from rogues or mail from hunters.

Weapons – Slowest weapon with WF on BOTH weapons = highest dps. If you don't care for min-max, use whatever imbue you like, even Rockbiter in OH (O.o). WF in both hands IS and WILL STILL BE at 2.3 the BEST weapon inbue available. This was already close modeled, tested, calculated, simulated, agreed by Blizz and theorycrafted about. If you don't agree don't post it, please. We know that there're people that still want to use other imbues. It's fine, you pay your game and play as you want. We pay our game and look for max usage of our class and skills and so play like this. I'd like to point people not to post examples, in any foruns or whatever, of how they beat another enhance shammy using fast OH with FT when his weapon or gear is freaking higher level than other shammy. The opposite goes true, as it's annoying to have shammies doubting of these mechanics saying that he get's beated to death in dps meter all the time by other shammy using FT when his gear is much lower than the other one. Please, before posts like that, make sure you're comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.
- End-game Weapons – If you got to end-game content without buying your acc, you should have a pretty decent insight of your class and should not need advice on that kind of stuff. Off course the knowledge is to be used and that's it's purpose, but try to answer for yourself questions like “Is weap X better than Y?” or “Is weap X combined with W in OH better than Z with H at MH?”. Try it, test it, model it, simulate it. Get it and go hit mobs. The game is to be played at.

I already made some colored tables explaining WF cooldown that can visually be followed through it to see WF cooldown with dif speeds. Should post it when i get back home if i find a place to host it O.o Btw, Malan, if u think this does not add anything to the post in the way of minimizing people not understanding what's in front page, just delete it, i really don't mind as it's all in OP already much better written and explained.
#3182SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
@oogg - thank you for the updated table. I'll work that into the post and wiki later.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3183SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Malan
Edit - Disquette, would that not be true for pretty much any special attack? I'd wager that Mortal Strike is a 3 event as well, one for the range check, etc, one for the hit and one for the debuff.
that just means that each of the melee attacks is only one spell cast not two as implied by Disquette (range, hit, hit, debuff vs range, 2xhit, debuff). However i don't really think its very important to the mechanics of the class overall, so ill just drop it.
#3184SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Disquette
I think I found another interesting thing about that, based on some playing around with a mod I'm writing. When you look for the event "Unit_Spellcast_Succeeded" with "Stormstrike" as the spell name argument, I see that it registers three times to your game client.

Apparently one event is for the casting of stormstrike if you're in range, on an attackable mob, facing the right way, etc, and then one event for each of the actual melee attacks.

Edit - I know this doesn't change anything, but I thought it was interesting that Stormstrike is a 3-event action instead of 2.
Or maybe one of them is the debuff being applied? :P
#3185SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Aknazer
Alright now I know that this has been beat into the ground and WF>GoA for warriors and non dagger rogues (am yet to see anything convincing saying WF>GoA for dagger rogues post nerf), but I was flipping through WWS reports of Lurker and this is what I found

Bood - WWS - 516 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 630 dps with GoA

Bood - WWS - 652 dps with WF

Now that first attempt was our first time to down Lurker which is why I think its so much lower than the other 2, but in that last attempt he even had a Bloodmoon as opposed to the Lunar Cresent version for the first 2 kills. I would have expected his DPS to be much higher with WF over GoA. Sadly the rogues didn't take off their poisons even though I told them I wanted to test out WF to see the dps differences so I can't compare their dps of GoA vs WF, but Conobum (our best dagger rogue) did lose about 50dps by not having GoA.

And the reason I normally have GoA down is because our group makeup is normally a feral druid, the war (he's a 33/28 2h slam spec), 2 dagger rogues, and me. Has anyone else seen things like this or have WWS reports of a war using GoA and then using WF on the same boss to compare the difference?
4 pre nerf drums of battle in GoA group > Lotp in WF group at that crit rate, there are a few subtle differences in the abilities/quantity; 5 less slams means he was off of the rotation for a while even with added rage from WF on identical fight lengths.
#3186SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
I am not understand either Malan or Boin at this point in time.

I agree with Disq in that SS would have three actions. Presumably the first one if it lands and applies the debuff as I imagine this is where the binary hit/miss comes into play.

Then you would see two more actions which are each of the weapon swings to determine the total damage.

I would wager that the same thing comes into play with something like MS. You would have an initial debuff added hit event and then another message for the damage calc.

The only difference with SS is that there are two weapon swings.

__________________
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
#3187SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Kurisu
Originally Posted by Malan
Edit - Disquette, would that not be true for pretty much any special attack? I'd wager that Mortal Strike is a 3 event as well, one for the range check, etc, one for the hit and one for the debuff.
Most should be 3 because of the way the combat system works, it should be 4 so the offhand hits still if the main hand attack is dodged/missed/parried but thats another story. If you consider procs then it actually goes higher since they go into the series of "if statements".

[e]
Originally Posted by fangar
I am not understand either Malan or Boin at this point in time.

I agree with Disq in that SS would have three actions. Presumably the first one if it lands and applies the debuff as I imagine this is where the binary hit/miss comes into play.

Then you would see two more actions which are each of the weapon swings to determine the total damage.

I would wager that the same thing comes into play with something like MS. You would have an initial debuff added hit event and then another message for the damage calc.

The only difference with SS is that there are two weapon swings.


Stormstrike works this way:
If attack hits
--apply damage from main hand
--apply Stormstrike Debuff
if first attack works
--apply damage from offhand if not missed


Mortal Strike works this way:
If attack hits
--apply Mortal Strike debuff
--do damage/make babys cry

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed

Last edited by Kurisu : 10/02/07 at 1:43 PM.
#3188SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
Originally Posted by Kurisu
Most should be 3 because of the way the combat system works, it should be 4 so the offhand hits still if the main hand attack is dodged/missed/parried but thats another story. If you consider procs then it actually goes higher since they go into the series of "if statements".
Stormstike is all or nothing. It's one hit/miss roll for both attacks. Either they both hit or they both miss.

__________________
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
#3189SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by fangar
Stormstike is all or nothing. It's one hit/miss roll for both attacks. Either they both hit or they both miss.
I don't believe this is correct. The offhand can miss independently of the main hand -- you just never see it because of the 9% hit that most Shamans have. The offhand attack can certainly be dodged or parried, why can't it miss?
#3190SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Kurisu
Read my edit Fang, I changed it while you were posting to give a better idea of it.

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed
#3191SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Hmm, I think you're wrong on that Moogle. I know for certain that if your MH is parried/dodged, your OH will never hit. I believe that to compensate for this, there is not an check for the OH.

If you were only referring to "Miss" as printed in the combat log then I apologize, but I'm guessing that parries/dodges were what the previous poster was referring to.
#3192SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I don't believe this is correct. The offhand can miss independently of the main hand -- you just never see it because of the 9% hit that most Shamans have. The offhand attack can certainly be dodged or parried, why can't it miss?
What about Dodge or is that a different mechanic?

Is your premise that one attack can hit and one attack can be dodged/parried or that there are two rolls and if either roll gets missed/dodged/parried both attacks would be missed?

__________________
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
#3193SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by fangar
What about Dodge or is that a different mechanic?

Is your premise that one attack can hit and one attack can be dodged/parried or that there are two rolls and if either roll gets missed/dodged/parried both attacks would be missed?
Kurizu's explanation above is correct.

If the main hand hits, the debuff will be applied and damage will be done based on the MH weapon -- the offhand weapon will then make an attack roll. If the main hand doesn't hit or crit, the offhand never gets a chance to make its attack roll.
#3194SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mengus
I suspect that all MH SS hitting gives you is a 'non miss'

Per the attack table, that still subjects you to the possibility of dodge, parry, block, glancing blow, regular hit, or crit.
#3195SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I don't believe this is correct. The offhand can miss independently of the main hand -- you just never see it because of the 9% hit that most Shamans have. The offhand attack can certainly be dodged or parried, why can't it miss?
I think the miss in what you quoted was talking about miss as dodge, parry, miss. Not just a missed hit. On top of that, you will not see your offhand SS hit be dodged, parried or miss in any case. the SS either hits with both hands, or misses with both hands, but only produces one combat event log:

569 Amyrllia's Stormstrike hits Giant Infernal for 485
569 Amyrllia's Stormstrike crits Giant Infernal for 515

04:55'42.991 Amyrllia's Stormstrike dodged by Banshee

thus
Amyrllia's Stormstrike hits Giant Infernal for 485
Amyrllia's Stormstrike dodged by Giant Infernal
cannot happen.

it is easier to think of a SS as a single attack rather than both weapons, I would bet that Devastate works in exactly the same manner (for all those DW prot wars out there)

edit: just to make it clear I did actually go through and try to find an instance where the first SS hit and then the 2nd part was dodged, I'm not just making things up, though I'm fairly certain this has been proven before.
for those interested (WTB better filtering in WWS )
For about 4 or 5 single event dodged SS, there were no hit/dodge events.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/02/07 at 2:02 PM. Reason: clarity
#3196SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mengus
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I think the miss in what you quoted was talking about miss as dodge, parry, miss. Not just a missed hit. On top of that, you will not see your offhand SS hit be dodged, parried or miss in any case. the SS either hits with both hands, or misses with both hands, but only produces one combat event log:

I'm pretty sure I've seen only one of the two SS's land, basically only getting report of one yellow attack from SS... Unfortunately, I have no combatlogs to back this up. I might try and test this at some point, just to see if it's possible. Then again, I think if it did happen, it was in PvP... not sure if that changes the mechanic.
#3197SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Kurisu
Same here I could have sworn I have seen it too, I am going over WWS logs for shamans right now and only finding single misses and not any OH misses so far.

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed
#3198SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Mengus
I'm pretty sure I've seen only one of the two SS's land, basically only getting report of one yellow attack from SS... Unfortunately, I have no combatlogs to back this up. I might try and test this at some point, just to see if it's possible. Then again, I think if it did happen, it was in PvP... not sure if that changes the mechanic.
whoops you posted too fast, please see my edit, that combat log is from 3ish hours of clearing hijal trash so I figure if it was possible it would have shown up there.
#3199SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aett
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I think the miss in what you quoted was talking about miss as dodge, parry, miss. Not just a missed hit. On top of that, you will not see your offhand SS hit be dodged, parried or miss in any case. the SS either hits with both hands, or misses with both hands, but only produces one combat event log:

569 Amyrllia's Stormstrike hits Giant Infernal for 485
569 Amyrllia's Stormstrike crits Giant Infernal for 515

04:55'42.991 Amyrllia's Stormstrike dodged by Banshee

thus
Amyrllia's Stormstrike hits Giant Infernal for 485
Amyrllia's Stormstrike dodged by Giant Infernal
cannot happen.

it is easier to think of a SS as a single attack rather than both weapons, I would bet that Devastate works in exactly the same manner (for all those DW prot wars out there)

edit: just to make it clear I did actually go through and try to find an instance where the first SS hit and then the 2nd part was dodged, I'm not just making things up, though I'm fairly certain this has been proven before.
for those interested (WTB better filtering in WWS )
For about 4 or 5 single event dodged SS, there were no hit/dodge events.
This is how I always believed it to work and have never witnessed otherwise. I went through about four minutes worth of one of the Lurker WWS's posted above before my mind started going numb reading hit/hit, hit/crit blah blah over and over again. It would be quite unfair to subject the offhand attack to two combat rolls instead of one.

If the offhand indeed has it's own combat roll, would we then see a noticeable skew in the dodge/parry rate of stormstrikes compared to that of windfury attacks?

It's been a while since I've taken a statistics course so I might be going down a dead end here, but it seemed like a worthwhile thought.
#3200SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Slothrop
Use of Enhancement Shamans for PvP

I know I am joining late, but can anyone can point me to posts/threads that have discussed the use of Enhancement Shamans, their builds, itemization, etc. for PvP?

On the first page, it says:
Is a 2H weapon viable for Enhancement DPS?
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. ...
Can someone point me at a proper theorycraft discussion of weapons and specs for Enhancement for PvP? For instance, I've seen many recommendation of a 2H build for PvP, BG, Arena, etc. (e.g. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft).

(In addition to weapons and specs, I'd be interested in being directed to any other theorycraft discussions of Enhancement for PvP also.)
#3201SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
There's an old thread talking about it in the PvP sub forum. Title was something like "enhance and group/weapon choice" or some such combination.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3202SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Hm, another thought about the Ashtongue thing -

First, thanks Malan, Nite and others for bringing up the debuff portion. That makes sense.

Moreover, I think that could tie into the 89% explanation. If we have 3 events that each have a 50% chance of proc'ing the talisman, then 1 - (1/2)^3 = 87.5%.

Granted, it doesn't take into account the dodge/parry mechanics, which would make the other explanation, with a base chance of 94% work better. I do like simple explanations though, when available.

Edit - check this out:
http://elitistjerks.com/418420-post541.html

From that post listed which gets the 89% uptime, he calculates it over only attacks that landed. Looks like parries/dodges weren't an issue then. If there's no other information that has different parameters, I'd venture a guess that it's a 3 roll system that corresponds to what I found when testing my mod.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
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A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan

Last edited by Disquette : 10/08/07 at 12:44 PM.
#3203SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Visionnaire
Introduction and questions.

Hello,

This is my first time posting here, and so, I would just first like to introduce myself. I am an enhancement shaman, who has progressed up to and including Gurtogg in BT.

I understand the rating system, as outline on the first page, for strength, agility, haste, etc.
Always assuming Kings
Strength = 2.2
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 2
Haste Rating = 1.48
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.25 (low estimate)

My armory that I logged out is my maximum DPS gear. Unbuffed, I have 8399 health, which I consider a problem. Most melee have upwards around 9100 health unbuffed. The thing is, rogues have cloak/vanish/sprint/etc, DPS warriors have high armor/gear has HP, while I really have very little in any of those departments. This is being an enhancement shaman, and I deal with it by putting on more stamina gear, such as merciless pieces, and trinkets with stamina (like Spyglass out of SSC).

Please note that I included all of my current gems and enchants in the AEP and stamina calculations.
My slots that I often switch out for stamina gear are:

Shoulders
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes]
AEP = 232.76
Stamina = 19

[Cyclone Shoulderplates]
AEP = 201.40
Stamina = 31

[Cataclysm Shoulderplates]
AEP = 191.60
Stamina = 43

Helm
[Cyclone Helm]
AEP = 236.80 (not including +3% bonus crit damage)
Stamina = 40

[Merciless Gladiator's Linked Helm]
AEP = 193.80
Stamina = 96


Neck
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
AEP = 155.40
Stamina = 0

[Worgen Claw Necklace]
AEP = 105.80
Stamina = 21

[Mithril Chain of Heroism]
AEP = 105.60
Stamina = 22


Trinket
[Hourglass of the Unraveller]
AEP = 109
Stamina = 0

[Spyglass of the Hidden Fleet]
AEP = 0
Stamina = 40


Gloves
[Fists of Mukoa]
AEP = 213.76
Stamina = 24

[Cataclysm Gauntlets]
AEP = 191.60
Stamina = 34


I know this isn't supposed to be a thread of how to gear myself, but I'd just like to know some opinions on which combinations would result in decent AEP / stamina ratio out of the items I have presented. I do not wish to stay at 8399 hp unbuffed, and so I am obviously looking to up my stamina, which will obviously decrease my AEP.

Also, I do not know if this has been discussed yet, but before the patch, my three haste rating items (shoulders, belt, and gloves) brought my weapons to 2.62 / 2.62 with the tooltip saying around 10.5% haste. Now, the 2.2 patch says my weapons are still 2.62 / 2.62, but with only 6.98% haste.

Was it a bug in the tooltip for the haste? So, it seems that my haste dropped around 3.5% but yet my weapon speeds stayed the same.

Thanks for your input in advance.

Last edited by Visionnaire : 10/02/07 at 4:29 PM.
#3204SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mbuzi
How much stamina you need is dependent on both the encounter and the quality of your healers. I don't think there is any way to create a hard and fast rule that will solve every encounter. My suggestion would be to add the items that give you the best AEP/STA benefit until you find the break point where you can comfortably stay alive yet maximize your DPS.
#3205SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Mbuzi
How much stamina you need is dependent on both the encounter and the quality of your healers. I don't think there is any way to create a hard and fast rule that will solve every encounter. My suggestion would be to add the items that give you the best AEP/STA benefit until you find the break point where you can comfortably stay alive yet maximize your DPS.
WTB T6. Has lots of AEP and stam. Just what I need.
#3206SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Kurisu
Originally Posted by Visionnaire
stuff
How is Glad helm 96 stamina?

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed

Last edited by Kurisu : 10/02/07 at 4:54 PM.
#3207SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2MalgorTB
If you all don't mind, I'd like to apologize for the extraordinarily newbish post a page or so back where I asked about weapon speeds. At first I was a little stunned at the amount of hostility I received for it. However, after reading the last 20-30 pages of this thread, the hostility is certainly understandable!

I think the problem is that the first post is so full of yummy information, that us noobs get excited, and most of us have a follow-up question that we want to ask the enhancement shaman community. The problem is that the question has already been asked and answered about 150 million times in the actual thread.

In my (perhaps lame) defense, the original post had this to say about weapon speeds:

The cooldown on Windfury Weapon means that an OH that is faster than the MH is extremely detrimental to shaman DPS.
Now having just decided to use a MH weapon (2.7) which was slower than my OH weapon (2.6), this made it sound like I was gimping myself. Doesn't it? Hard to interpret that any other way. My OH was faster than my MH, which was supposedly "extremely detrimental" to my DPS.

It wasn't until after I entered my data into the simulator, and changed the MH to 2.6 did I realize that it was considerably better for my main hand to be 2.7 than if it was 2.6.

I think to clarify some of the confusion inherent in the statement about weapon speeds, an addition could be something like:

Despite losing main hand WF procs by having your offhand weapon faster than your main hand weapon, you should still strive to keep your main hand weapon as slow as possible. The DPS advantage of having a slower offhand outweighs the DPS lost by having your offhand steal additional WF procs. You should not sacrifice main hand top end damage to avoid having your offhand weapon faster than your main hand.

2.7/2.6 > 2.6/2.6
It may seem obvious to the experts here, but it is not at all clear in the original post, IMHO.

Anyway, I apologize again for the newb question, and am looking forward to redeeming myself.
#3208SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Kurisu
How is Glad helm 96 stamina?
Meta = 18 Stam
Other slot = 18 stam unique for JC

= Lots of stam.
#3209SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Visionnaire
WTB T6. Has lots of AEP and stam. Just what I need.
MP/5 TOO! Just what you need!

I have 8849 hp unbuffed and I find it unnecessary. With mark, fort, and by some miracle we have 3 paladins and I have kings I sit at ~10,500 hp; I'd go as far to say that you don't need any higher than 9k buffed hp for any encounter except maybe council, but I'm pretty sure I've been instagibbed on that fight even with high hp.

As far as the haste thing is concerned, 2.8 weapons would be faster than 2.62 with 10.5% haste, your memory is either foggy or you've swapped in gear.
#3210SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Visionnaire
Originally Posted by rava
MP/5 TOO! Just what you need!

I have 8849 hp unbuffed and I find it unnecessary. With mark, fort, and by some miracle we have 3 paladins and I have kings I sit at ~10,500 hp; I'd go as far to say that you don't need any higher than 9k buffed hp for any encounter except maybe council, but I'm pretty sure I've been instagibbed on that fight even with high hp.

As far as the haste thing is concerned, 2.8 weapons would be faster than 2.62 with 10.5% haste, your memory is either foggy or you've swapped in gear.
Yeah, except 2.62 / 2.62 is what my tooltip said at 10.5% haste pre-patch. Was this only me then that had this bug? ..

I swapped in gear and have around 8995 unbuffed now, but with a lot less haste gear. I'd rather stay alive for new progression than die and be useless.
#3211SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by MalgorTB
Now having just decided to use a MH weapon (2.7) which was slower than my OH weapon (2.6), this made it sound like I was gimping myself. Doesn't it? Hard to interpret that any other way. My OH was faster than my MH, which was supposedly "extremely detrimental" to my DPS.
Yes that is something I need to rewrite a little bit, its on my to-do list. Its really just that both MH and OH need to be slow in order to minimize overlap of swing timers past the point of exiting the cooldown.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3212SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes that is something I need to rewrite a little bit, its on my to-do list. Its really just that both MH and OH need to be slow in order to minimize overlap of swing timers past the point of exiting the cooldown.
New thread time Malan! "Enhancement Shaman: 2.6 or slower, Windfury on Both"
#3213SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mengus
Originally Posted by Slothrop
I know I am joining late, but can anyone can point me to posts/threads that have discussed the use of Enhancement Shamans, their builds, itemization, etc. for PvP?

On the first page, it says:
Is a 2H weapon viable for Enhancement DPS?
2H weapons are strictly inferior for PvE DPS situations. Talents and mechanics of shaman DPS at lvl 70 are built around DW. ...
Can someone point me at a proper theorycraft discussion of weapons and specs for Enhancement for PvP? For instance, I've seen many recommendation of a 2H build for PvP, BG, Arena, etc. (e.g. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft).

(In addition to weapons and specs, I'd be interested in being directed to any other theorycraft discussions of Enhancement for PvP also.)
I've tossed around using Gorehowl or 2x Merc Glad, and while every once in a while I find myself trying a 2H, I keep going back to DW. Part of it is that I proc UR a lot, and run with 2 MS warriors. Second, my crit with 2H isn't as high as I'd like, and I get way too many non crits with 2H. I mean, there's the occasional 10k or so SS + WF from a 2H, but for me, they are few and far between.

25-30% crit with DW is great, but pretty much blows chunks with 2H, especially with my poor survivability.
#3214SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2drats
Originally Posted by rava
MP/5 TOO! Just what you need!
I thought I saw on WorldofRaids blue notes that t4/5/6 was going to be re-itemized to get rid of spell stats and replace them with crit/ap/str. They didn't specify class though, which makes me worried they could have been talking about ret pallies.
#3215SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by drats
which makes me worried they could have been talking about ret pallies
Supposedly, yes. Although they're believed to be fake notes.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3216SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shabadu
Originally Posted by Mengus
I've tossed around using Gorehowl or 2x Merc Glad, and while every once in a while I find myself trying a 2H, I keep going back to DW. Part of it is that I proc UR a lot, and run with 2 MS warriors. Second, my crit with 2H isn't as high as I'd like, and I get way too many non crits with 2H. I mean, there's the occasional 10k or so SS + WF from a 2H, but for me, they are few and far between.

25-30% crit with DW is great, but pretty much blows chunks with 2H, especially with my poor survivability.
I've found my arena performance slightly better using a Soul Cleaver vs using my Rising Tide/Merc Glad combo. Lust goes a long way to making 2h better, and it's not like you'll usually outlive 45 seconds against many teams.
#3217SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan
Supposedly, yes. Although they're believed to be fake notes.
I really doubt the validity of those notes based on the Weapon Expertise talent changes. Adding HP and a mana gain onto Weapon Expertise? Seems pretty damn silly.

But I imagine we will still have mp5 on enhance gear. My guess is it's similar to the Agi piled on warrior DPS gear. An intentional gimp placed on DPS without just straight up nerfing something.
#3218SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2oogg
@ Mengus -

I find that in arena, I swap weapons depending on what class I am fighting. The spellpushback on DW is very nice against mages and resto shaman, while the burst of a 2h is just what you need when you have them with their backs against the wall.

I change them unconciously now. This is what I remember doing in some circumstances.

Healing Priests - DW
Druids - DW
Mages - DW
Shaman - DW
Wars - DW
Rogues - DW
Paladins - DW

Shadow Priests - 2h
Warlocks - 2h
Hunters - 2h
Pets - 2h

For battlegrounds I go DW all the way.
#3219SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Torrential
I really doubt the validity of those notes based on the Weapon Expertise talent changes. Adding HP and a mana gain onto Weapon Expertise? Seems pretty damn silly
Yeah, why would they want to encourage people to take a talent that nobody currently takes?
#3220SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by drats
I thought I saw on WorldofRaids blue notes that t4/5/6 was going to be re-itemized to get rid of spell stats and replace them with crit/ap/str. They didn't specify class though, which makes me worried they could have been talking about ret pallies.
They were talking about Ret pallies and it was a "rumored" set of notes (which in my mind is equivalent to fake).

They already reitemized our T4/5 to take off the spell damage, so I'm not hopeful to see further MP5 reductions on these pieces. I do believe that T6 could and should someday have the MP5 removed and replaced with passive haste or armor penetration.
#3221SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Squigg
Alright, so I could not find anything about this using the search function so im just going to ask.

Firstly, haste gear is starting to become available to me with 4 bosses down in BT, and I was wondering if it was worth picking up over crit gear. My question is with more crit you recieve a higher flurry uptime, and wouldnt that naturally equal out to haste? So I guess my main question is, is there a point were +crit on a piece of gear will be better than haste rating?
#3222SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Read the first post.
#3223SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
As for the PvP question I have found that it depends on what your fighting and at what bracket. High resil targets (generally found in the higher brackets) and against healers I found DW to be better, while against lower resil targets and when your helping FF down the main target the burst from the 2h was generally better for me.

And yes I wasn't always on the FF target. Sometimes I would get on the healer and just lock out his heals or force him to heal himself, which let my team kill theirs.

__________________
#3224SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Squigg
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Read the first post.
I did. It didn't answer my question.
#3225SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Squigg
I did. It didn't answer my question.
Then you didn't read all of it. I suggest the section titled "Itemization – Haste".
#1936SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
I'm gonna go model it with WF procing right off the beginning and see if the results change any. brb lol
#1937SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
If you want to make a better one to replace the one I made, be my guest.
#1938SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
If your talkin about reworking your 2.6/1.5 set-up I think I could whip somethin up for ya :P. But in no way am I tryin to out-do you good sir :P
#1939SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
#1940SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Originally Posted by Ayror
BTW I found a big flaw in my graph, making up for that now
I didn't get to see the first one but how do you plan to account for Flurry? The 3 charges vs 2 swing cycle may makes all this futile... Are you assuming Flurry is always UP (or always down)?
#1941SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is probably best to model it with flurry since flurry will up most of the time.
#1942SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Ayror
I'll make up a formula right now that will calculate Flurry with the model I just reworked.

Edit: The formula is proving to be more work than I first thought. This will take a little more time.

Edit2: Just doing some quick math and unofficially checked numbers, I'm showing that for every first strike cycle (cycle = the time between when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit at the same time until the next time when WF is CD'd and both MH and OH hit toghther again) that for every time 1 MH hit turns into an OH hit, an OH hit in the cycle turns into a MH hit. More calculations show that you would need over 13 mins of straight, non-intueruppted melee dps to have a cycle that only switches a MH hit to an OH hit. I don't know about you but that sounds pretty boring to me!

To show what I mean by a cycle, I'll put up one reworked graph...so I don't confuse anyone.



Don't worry about the 7.7, that graph isn't totally finished.

Last edited by Ayror : 08/28/07 at 4:09 PM.
#1943SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
Head Enchants

Hey, great stuff in here.

I was browsing some other shaman around and I noticed one of them went with the Glyph of the Outcast (37.4 AEP) over the Glyph of Ferocity (56.4 AEP).

I didn't see mention of head enchants in the itemization portion of the OP. I'm sure it boils down to preference but from a pure DPS standpoint I'd go with Ferocity.
#1944SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I would tend to agree with you on that. The intellect on the Outcast enchant isn't really value added, whereas the Hit rating on the Ferocity is.
#1945SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Maybe he wasn't CE Revered, because Glyph of Ferocity is straight-up better.

Also, it might just be me, but I don't understand that graph. Are you saying that it takes 13m to get an extra MH attack in eligible to proc WF? Wouldn't this vary based on randomness due to WF procs?
#1946SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Iol
Ayror, I'm not getting your graph.. I think your legend isn't complete / good enough.. Maybe I'm dumb but I don't get the difference of tones in the 2 color per hands.. So I have trouble getting when is it that your hand swings.
#1947SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
The 2 different shades are alternating reset timers for the swings i.e. At the line between the bright color and shaded color is where the swing occurs. The 1st swing reset of each weapon is bright, the 2nd reset is shaded, the 3rd is bright, the 4th is shade, etc.

The red lines are the end of the 3sec hidden cooldown on WF counting from the 1st swing to land after the previous WF CD is gone.

The little squares on top just show which hand is the one that procs WF.

@Ayror, I have 2 comments
1. It is hard to see the color difference of the small squares indicating 'Possible WH hit'. Maybe use the bright versions of the colors instead of the shaded ones
2. The internal cooldown for the swing between the red lines 1 and 2 is 9 squares instead of 10 like all the others. This will mean the OH will be the 1st swing after red line 2.

EDIT: reworded some sentences
#1948SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ayror
Yea like I said that graph isn't complete at all, and I understand how you guys can be confused.

@Apsalar-
That's is definately one mistake about the red lines, but it's not 9 it's 11 squares ><. Again, it's not fully complete!

@Iol-
The legend is not fully understandable. I'll switch up the colors and such to make it more understandable.

I plan on making a new graph that includes flurry is up the whole time. Not using the graphs, my math has been showing that a MH will hit more than the OH with the syphon in the OH. I'll fix it all up when I can.

Thank you for the feedback, it's helpin me figure out the flaws and pointing me in the right direction in my calculations
#1949SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Apsalar
It is 11 from the last red line, but 9 from the 1st swing to land after the red line All the others are fine.

Kudos to you for your effort!
#1950SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Cele, I bet you lost ~1% of your total dps because your elemental shaman was eating your debuffs. Which is fine; I guarantee he put them to good use.
Not worth to mention. I dont see that as being "ninjad", ele shaman gets much more out of that 20% than my lousy shock. Actually, if there would be some way to make sure that its ele shaman who gets to eat thoes buffs, Id be happy. But currenty rogues poison eats majority of them. Anyone has done some workaround on it? Is there, group-DPS wise, alternative, like shaprening stones or something?
#3251SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Fixed and added a 3.8 line and corrected the uploaded image per Rob below.
Attached Thumbnails
screenshot-1.png  

Last edited by Malan : 10/03/07 at 11:45 AM.
#3252SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Rob
You uploaded the wrong SS this time

3.7 is close enough to 3.8 it shouldn't make more than a percent or two of difference.
#3253SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
There ya go, corrected the post above. Messy posting from doing this while working.
#3254SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2oogg
Malan, can you link the sheet so I can update my end to match your values. If you don't want to, let me know and I'll empty my post with the data so that it won't confuse anyone searching. I don't want to spread false ideas.

Thanks everyone for correcting and improving the sheet.
#3255SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Sure, its attached here. Also can you tell me if these LaTeX expressions accurately describe the formulas? I had a hard time making sure I was evaluation parenthesis correction.

You may need to fix the IF expression in my HitsPer10Sec entry, as it looks like Open office uses semi-colons to separate the expression while Excel uses commas.

UR Uptime =  \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns} } {\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns} }{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry Uptime}))) \times \text {Modifier} + 1}

IF Wpn Speed < 3, Modifier = (\text {WF Proc Rate} \times (\text{Wpn Speed}/3))
ELSE Modifier = \text{WF Proc Rate}

Flurry Uptime =  \left ( 1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})
Attached Files
UR uptime.xls (74.0 KB, 16 views)
#3256SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Thebeat
I don't know if this is the appropriate thread but I have a question. I stopped playing before the BT patch and just started up again yesterday. I am not a blacksmith and I don't know if I have time for arenas. My current weapons are Malchazeen and Emerald Ripper. Obviously these are very fast weapons and in direct opposition of what I should be using. My question is will I be effective in a 25 man raid with these weapons or will I be fairly useless until I get some slower weapons?
#3257SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Group buffs that you can provide - Useful. Contribution to Raid DPS that you can provide - pretty pathetic.
#3258SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Thebeat
Thanks. That's what I figured. Hopefully I can at least get a fool's bane or decapitator in a stray kara run. DW daggers seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually it didn't but those were the only epics weapons that dropped for me while I was raiding.
#3259SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
If anyone has any extra time today and wants to look over some contributions from the WoW forums, please check out this thread WoW Forums -> Help improve the EJ Enhancement thread that I made to solicit the brain power of any latent genius that might be lurking on the official boards. Need some help figuring out if the responses are correct enough to include in the OP/Wiki.
#3260SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
Originally Posted by Thebeat
Thanks. That's what I figured. Hopefully I can at least get a fool's bane or decapitator in a stray kara run. DW daggers seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually it didn't but those were the only epics weapons that dropped for me while I was raiding.
It was an ok idea when you can do 5-4 Windfury without having shared cooldowns.
#3261SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2oogg
Originally Posted by Malan
Sure, its attached here. Also can you tell me if these LaTeX expressions accurately describe the formulas? I had a hard time making sure I was evaluation parenthesis correction.

You may need to fix the IF expression in my HitsPer10Sec entry, as it looks like Open office uses semi-colons to separate the expression while Excel uses commas.

UR Uptime =  \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns} } {\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns} }{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry Uptime}))) \times \text {Modifier} + 1}

IF Wpn Speed < 3, Modifier = (\text {WF Proc Rate} \times (\text{Wpn Speed}/3))
ELSE Modifier = \text{WF Proc Rate}

Flurry Uptime =  \left ( 1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})
The formulas are perfect. I don't know what you want to do with the modifier (if statement). It needs to be left the way it is to accurately reflect the mechanic.

I'll just erase my post since we have what we need now.
#3262SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
I simply moved it out of the formula because of the IF/ELSE statement adding confusion and to break up the LaTeX formula a bit, it was getting pretty lengthy. I'll just rename it to WindfuryHits or something to more accurately reflect what it is.
#3263SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2tedv
Originally Posted by Malan
I simply moved it out of the formula because of the IF/ELSE statement adding confusion and to break up the LaTeX formula a bit, it was getting pretty lengthy. I'll just rename it to WindfuryHits or something to more accurately reflect what it is.
You could write Modifier this way if you don't like an explicit if/else:

Modifier = WF Proc Rate * min(1, Weapon Speed / 3)

Seems pretty easy to inline at that point.
#3264SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Rob
I'd write it like this -- a piecewise function, if you will:

\text{Modifier} = \left\{<br />
\begin{array}{l l}<br />
  \text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\<br />
  \text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3<br />
\end{array}<br />
\right.

Or use the min() function as suggested above.
#3265SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Thebeat
My question is will I be effective in a 25 man raid with these weapons or will I be fairly useless until I get some slower weapons?
Obviously it depends on the makeup of the raid. My guildy is an Enh, Shaman using those weapons and he does okay -- his max dps is less than mine with blue weapons, but still more than most of our DPS warriors.

Why does he wield them? Same reason you might want to wear them around town if you're looking for a tier 5 raiding guild -- those weapons are proof you've raided extensively. If you're aiming to run some more Kara, do go after Fool's Bane, the Decapitator, or the Wolf's Paw.

With this in mind, there are a number of easy farmed slow blues that'll put out more DPS in raids. Personally, I liked the [Demonblood Eviscerator] (Drop from regular Shattered Halls, pretty common) teamed with the [Boggspine Knuckles] (Drop from the first boss in Heroic Underbog, pretty common). The unarmed skill rating on the Eviscerator teamed with the Knuckles is a great pairing, and the Knuckles will carry you until you can afford to replace them with a [Runic Hammer].

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 10/03/07 at 5:02 PM.
#3266SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Atren
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Obviously it depends on the makeup of the raid. My guildy is an Enh, Shaman using those weapons and he does okay -- his max dps is less than mine with blue weapons, but still more than most of our DPS warriors.

Why does he wield them? Same reason you might want to wear them around town if you're looking for a tier 5 raiding guild -- those weapons are proof you've raided extensively. If you're aiming to run some more Kara, do go after Fool's Bane, the Decapitator, or the Wolf's Paw.

With this in mind, there are a number of easy farmed slow blues that'll put out more DPS in raids. Personally, I liked the [Demonblood Eviscerator] (Drop from regular Shattered Halls, pretty common) teamed with the [Boggspine Knuckles] (Drop from the first boss in Heroic Underbog, pretty common). The unarmed skill rating on the Eviscerator teamed with the Knuckles is a great pairing, and the Knuckles will carry you until you can afford to replace them with a [Runic Hammer].
Concerning Kara Violet rep exalted will prove it. Also it is like Damocles sword -- they might look that you dont know that fast weapons dont work with enhancement shaman.
#3267SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Rob your LaTeX-fu is greater than my own. I'll use that.
#3268SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Malan, just a suggestion:

Can we just put a bolded line in the first post that says, "Leather gear is the gear of choice for enhancement shaman"? I just find that so many enhancement shaman think of themselves as mail-wearers and can't get around that, even with the first post. Maybe something like "Mail vs. Leather armor" and then talk there about how most lvl 70 mail gear has INT or MP5 on it, and as such is not optimal for enhancement shaman.
#3269SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Ilmater
Malan, just a suggestion:

Can we just put a bolded line in the first post that says, "Leather gear is the gear of choice for enhancement shaman"? I just find that so many enhancement shaman think of themselves as mail-wearers and can't get around that, even with the first post. Maybe something like "Mail vs. Leather armor" and then talk there about how most lvl 70 mail gear has INT or MP5 on it, and as such is not optimal for enhancement shaman.
It's really not. Gear with the proper stats is the gear of choice. You'll still end up with plenty of mail pieces, and we don't want people ignoring mail all together in favor of leather. Paying attention to armor class is the mistake, you shouldn't be going in the opposite direction for the sake of it being Leather. Maybe "If you're looking at Armor/Intellect/Spirit/MP5/Spell Damage, STOP IT NOW" would be more appropriate.

We ninja loot from both rogues AND hunters!
#3270SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Malan
Sure, its attached here. Also can you tell me if these LaTeX expressions accurately describe the formulas? I had a hard time making sure I was evaluation parenthesis correction.

You may need to fix the IF expression in my HitsPer10Sec entry, as it looks like Open office uses semi-colons to separate the expression while Excel uses commas.

UR Uptime =  \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100

HitsPer10sec = \frac {10 \times \text{Num Wpns} } {\text {Wpn Speed}} \times (1- \text {Miss Rate}) + \frac {10 \times \text {Num Wpns} }{\text {Wpn Speed} \times \left 1-0.3((1-(\text {Crit Rate} \times \text {Flurry Uptime}))) \times \text {Modifier} + 1}

IF Wpn Speed < 3, Modifier = (\text {WF Proc Rate} \times (\text{Wpn Speed}/3))
ELSE Modifier = \text{WF Proc Rate}

Flurry Uptime =  \left ( 1-(1- \text{Crit Rate})^3 \right ) \times (1- \text {Miss Rate})

You should either decide to use simple formulas to describe the models or fully developed ones:

Wfproc rate for dual wield is closely approximated:
wfprocmh := 20%/(floor(3.0/wsmh))
wfprocoh := 20%/(floor(3.0/wsoh))
wfprocdw := wfprocmh+wfprocoh - wfprocmh*wfprocoh

your hits in 10sec is missing stormstrike and generic haste

your flurry calculation is not dependent on hit, since missed swings won't use a charge, additionally you'll need to add certain amount of extra swings from windfury and/or stormstrike in these 3.0s.

My current closed form formulas for weo2:
Pastey.net - paste bin
#3271SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
Originally Posted by Ilmater
Malan, just a suggestion:

Can we just put a bolded line in the first post that says, "Leather gear is the gear of choice for enhancement shaman"? I just find that so many enhancement shaman think of themselves as mail-wearers and can't get around that, even with the first post. Maybe something like "Mail vs. Leather armor" and then talk there about how most lvl 70 mail gear has INT or MP5 on it, and as such is not optimal for enhancement shaman.
Leather isn't the gear of choice though. You need gear that has the stats that you're after. Now leather has a good deal of that, and having some leather isn't bad. But having ALL leather would be. This is because even though we need more "rogue" stats, we still need mana which doesn't come on leather. If you had all leather your mana pool would be so low I doubt you could last from SR to SR w/o having to chug mana pots or ease up on SS/totems/shocks, and that just wouldn't be a good use of the potion CD and would hurt your overall dps.

Also a decent amount of leather has +hit on it which isn't a stat that's as needed for enh shaman either.
#3272SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yakout
Originally Posted by Rob
Entry Set
[...]
Chest: Not sure, there are not a lot of easily available really good options.
[...]
Belt: Not sure, there are not a lot of easily available really good options.
[...]
MH: Tough call, but I'd say a S1 Gladiator's Pummeler, Dragonmaw, or Fool's Bane (I know this is past Curator in Kara)
Drawing on my personal experience and what I've seen:

Chest: [Laughing Skull Battle-Harness] (BM)
Belt: [Rune-Engraved Belt] (SH quest reward; it's glass cannon-ish, but easily available)
MH: [Demonblood Eviscerator] (SH) seems more realistic if we really want "entry level". It's what I entered Kara wielding.
#3273SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
You should either decide to use simple formulas to describe the models or fully developed ones:
Does it not work as an approximation? The formula are really just there for reference, to show that we didn't just pull some numbers out of our ass.
#3274SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Rezarel
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
your flurry calculation is not dependent on hit, since missed swings won't use a charge
I'm not sure for Shaman Flurry, but I just tested Warrior Flurry with a nice slow 3.6 speed Sword and Dodge, Miss, and Parry all consumed Flurry charges.
#3275SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aezoc
Originally Posted by Rezarel
I'm not sure for Shaman Flurry, but I just tested Warrior Flurry with a nice slow 3.6 speed Sword and Dodge, Miss, and Parry all consumed Flurry charges.
This is also the case with shaman flurry.
#3276SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aezoc
Originally Posted by Rezarel
I'm not sure for Shaman Flurry, but I just tested Warrior Flurry with a nice slow 3.6 speed Sword and Dodge, Miss, and Parry all consumed Flurry charges.
This is also the case with shaman flurry.
#3277SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Yakout
Drawing on my personal experience and what I've seen:

Chest: [Laughing Skull Battle-Harness] (BM)
Belt: [Rune-Engraved Belt] (SH quest reward; it's glass cannon-ish, but easily available)
MH: [Demonblood Eviscerator] (SH) seems more realistic if we really want "entry level". It's what I entered Kara wielding.
Good recommendations. I was thinking about that belt but didn't remember the name or where it was from. As for the MH, I agree that is more easily attainable, but I also wouldn't want to skew calculations TOO heavily in favor of Attack Power (i.e. away from Crit/Hit due to low weapon damage). Fool's Bane is probably the best compromise.
#3278SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Stigmata
@ Sebudai,

I noticed you now have the top hyjal ring, hows that working out for you?

I'm still miles away from it
I'd give it a solid "Meh...". It was an upgrade, but not a huge one. That's not really surprising from the ring slot though. It has about a 10% chance to proc with a 60 second internal cooldown. I think the ring hierarchy probably looks like this(at least for me):

Stormrage Signet Ring - 156.78 AEP
Band of the Eternal Champion - 137~ AEP
Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring - 136.2 AEP
Ring of Deceitful Intent - 133.05 AEP
Band of Devastation - 123.35 AEP
#3279SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
Sebudai you also value hit rating at
HR: 1.85
are you getting a higher than normal value to it, because you have such low hit in comparison to most shaman for your lvl of gear?
#3280SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Sebudai
I guess. That's just what Yo's sim told me to value it at!
#3281SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I guess. That's just what Yo's sim told me to value it at!
Well HitRating always rivaled CritRating in value for all of the more recent models.
Especially if we assume the 28% miss rate for dw without +weaponskill.

The optimal gear my model currently outputs has well above 20% +hit currently, usually between 12 and 15% from items. Since haste went down to mediocre and critrating usually affecting +dmg only anymore (we're closing in on the 90+% flurry uptime, 99%+ UR), 1% crit is still 50% better than 1% hit, but since 1% hit needs way less rating than 1% crit the individual rating comparisons are not that different.

Edit:
Items:
Item: Cursed Vision of Sargeras
        Gem: Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond
        Gem: Bold Crimson Spinel
Enchant: Glyph of Ferocity
Item: Choker of Endless Nightmares
Item: Swiftstrike Shoulders
Enchant: Greater Inscription of Vengeance
Item: Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape
Enchant: Major Agility
Item: Midnight Chestguard
        Gem: Wicked Pyrestone
        Gem: Wicked Pyrestone
        Gem: Wicked Pyrestone
Enchant: Exceptional Stats
Item: Insidious Bands
        Gem: Rigid Lionseye
Enchant: Assault
Item: Grips of Damnation
Enchant: Major Strength
Item: Boneweave Girdle
Item: Bow-stitched Leggings
        Gem: Bright Crimson Spinel
        Gem: Bold Crimson Spinel
        Gem: Bright Crimson Spinel
Enchant: Nethercobra Leg Armor
Item: Shadowmaster's Boots
        Gem: Bold Crimson Spinel
        Gem: Wicked Pyrestone
Enchant: Surefooted
Item: Stormrage Signet Ring
Item: Band of the Ranger-General
Item: Dragonspine Trophy
Item: Ashtongue Talisman of Vision
Item: Wicked Edge of the Planes
Enchant: Mongoose
Item: Rising Tide
Enchant: Mongoose
Item: Totem of the Astral Winds
DPS: 1307.89
Attributes:
        CritRating: 903.033
        HitRating: 364.2
        AttackPower: 2642.02
        HasteRating: 75
        Health: 9981.6
Runtime: 118.187 seconds
This does not yet contain external optimization for Enchants and Gems, so some Enchants and Gems are not yet optimal.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 10/04/07 at 7:16 AM.
#3282SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shakkha
I have yet another slightly off-subject question, but i couldn't find a threat that would be more relevant.

My question is, ideally how many enhancement shamans would you bring into a raid ?

We usually have one, in our typical 2rogues/EnhShaman/Feral/Furywar group, and we are debating getting another enhancement shaman. Would you think it's redondant?

I'm not good enough at hunter knowledge to know wether it would be better to have two groups such as: 1rogue/EnhShaman/Feral/FuryWar/BMHunter.

Our hunters seem to want more a spriest than all these buffs from this group, is their mana that starved?

My question for sebudai for example singe juggernaut seem to be quite good at min/maxing raid dps, ideally for most fight, how would you use enhancement shamans, and how many of them?

Thanks in advance!
#3283SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Sebudai
I don't think you want more than 1 enhancement shaman in a balanced raid. Hunters do not belong in melee groups if you have a choice. Our groups usually look like this:

Rogue
Rogue
Rogue or Feral Druid
Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shaman

and

Beastmastery Hunter
Beastmastery Hunter
Survival Hunter
Feral Druid
Restoration Shaman

I've heard of some guilds using a 2nd enhancement shaman in the tank group to help him generate more threat, but I don't think that is really necessary or even optimal outside of maybe a total of 1 or 2 specific encounters.
#3284SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
If I may answer that, 1, simply, what benefit is there to any other group in comparison?

Unless you run a really melee heavy raid team I cant see where you would put a second, that would be viable.

We run with 4-5 shaman, myself as enhancement and 1 elemental and 2-3 resto. the resto can provide the tank group with totems that they require, and the other resto(s) can provide totems for the healer/hunter group. With the elemental with the best dps casters.

Our typical group composition is MT group, Melee group, Caster group, hunter group and healer group.



The mage in group 5 is out of place, but he could be swapped for the resto in group 4, but then they dont get the totems. Also if the mage was short on mana we would swap him witha warlockj, but since warlocks seem to be so much better than mages on the damage meters they get the priority on groups.

One other thing to note, bringing an enhancement shaman is about buffing their group while still being viable on the damage meters.

Putting one in the MT group is pointless, MT usually use commanding shout so no BS, they dont get feral if you usually have one.

My most important buff is BS, without it, its such a huge chunk of missing AP.

Last edited by Stigmata : 10/04/07 at 7:17 AM.
#3285SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Jerem
As a hunter, I'd prefer a S.Priest. to an Enh. Shaman.

The first time I had a shadow priest, I didn't have to chain mana pots.
The second one, I brought more drums and haste pots, and rediscovered the concept of "having potion CD available".

A spriest brings mana return and pet healing (hunter healing as well).
BM hunters give him FI, which improves this mana return and healing.

An Enh. Shaman brings UR, GoA, SoE for the pet, and a small mana return (Mana Spring).
We give him +3/6/9% dmg (which could bring aggro problems on some fights, I guess).

My guild generally raids with 3 hunters (all 3BM, typically grouped with a shadow priest and a triple-FI-addicted Warlock).
We leave the Enh. Shaman to the melee group.

If we were to raid with a second Enh. Shammy, I could take it in my group instead of the Warlock, but wouldn't replace my s.priest (sort of a "trading "longevity" for higher damage" dilemna).
The way I see it, there might be other groups in which a second Enh. Shaman might bring (and receive) more. If one spot's available in the MT group, I'm pretty sure the additional threat and dodge given by WF/GoA twisting would have a bigger impact on the raid's performance.
#3286SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Sebudai
The mage in group 5 is out of place, but he could be swapped for the resto in group 4, but then they dont get the totems. Also if the mage was short on mana we would swap him witha warlockj, but since warlocks seem to be so much better than mages on the damage meters they get the priority on groups.
Off-topic, but check out the mage dps we've had on some encounters since the last patch. A couple examples:

WWS
WWS

Our warlocks definitely have room for improvement, but I think mages are actually pretty crazy as of the last week or so. =P
#3287SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
I think a more likely belt to be used would be the Tracker's Belt from Slave Pens.
Tracker's Belt - Items - World of Warcraft
At high raid levels stam doesn't have a huge value, but at Heroic and KZ entry level, having Stamina on your gear is a *big* deal - as well as Armor actually. I didn't take any leather until I was out of KZ because all too often I would end up off tanking something in a heroic. Obviously in a 25man you can't do that, but for lower end content mail gear is very useful.

@Stigmata - how's that Retadin working out for your group?

Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 10:22 AM.
#3288SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
Retdins are actually rather nice, the problem they have (and probably resolved or alleviated in 2.3) is the fact that their threat is bad, and for alliance paladins (aka no Seal of Blood), there's no consistent damage output.

Now that their threat is reduced by 25% (which is greater margine than warriors), I can see Paladins doing quite decent DPs in raids without pulling aggro. Just that Paladins are really amazing single target healers so that they are highly desired (also doesn't help that the fact typical retdins.....suck at what they're doing)
#3289SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Is there an updated character planner that pulls items from wowhead or something? I really don't want to calculate all the stats for this "entry set" by hand.

Oh and I was asking more along the lines of what sort of group synergy they were bringing to an Enhance Shaman if any.
#3290SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
Is there an updated character planner that pulls items from wowhead or something? I really don't want to calculate all the stats for this "entry set" by hand.

Oh and I was asking more along the lines of what sort of group synergy they were bringing to an Enhance Shaman if any.
2% more damage is what they would bring. Pretend they're an arms warrior without battle shout for the most part. They'll need the exact same totems.
#3291SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Unaz
It's really not. Gear with the proper stats is the gear of choice. You'll still end up with plenty of mail pieces, and we don't want people ignoring mail all together in favor of leather. Paying attention to armor class is the mistake, you shouldn't be going in the opposite direction for the sake of it being Leather. Maybe "If you're looking at Armor/Intellect/Spirit/MP5/Spell Damage, STOP IT NOW" would be more appropriate.

We ninja loot from both rogues AND hunters!
Wow, didn't expect to hear dissenting opinion, but let me try to elaborate. I'll compare mail Kara gear to leather Kara gear and blue level 70 leather gear. In each case, I'll assume whatever gems that (with their socket bonus) give the most AEP). Take a look at gloves:

Gloves of Quickening (Mail Kara Epic) - 121.2 AEP
Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation (Leather Kara Epic) - 147.2 AEP
Gloves of the Unbound (Leather 70 Blue) - 127.2 AEP

Note that the 70 rare leather item is better than even the epic Kara item. Now boots:

Fiend Slayer Boots (Mail Kara Epic) - 145 AEP
Ferocious Swift Kickers (Mail Kara Epic) - 125.2 AEP
Edgewalker Longboots (Leather Kara Epic) - 158.8 AEP
Boots of the Shifting Sands (Leather 70 Blue) - 116.6 AEP

In this instance, all the Kara mail gear is better than the pre-Kara leather gear, but note that the leather Kara gear is still significantly better than any mail gear.

Finally, bracers:

Stalker's War Bands (Mail Kara Epic) - 86 AEP
Bracers of Maliciousness (Leather Kara Epic) - 94 AEP
Armwraps of Disdain (Leather 70 Blue) - 78 AEP

Once again, the leather gear is king.

Now, would you take the Stalker's War Bands over Armwraps of Disdain if there was a hunter in the party that could use them? I wouldn't... not when the Bracers of Mani are a much bigger upgrade.

My point is this... I'm not just going to accept scraps when every Hunter or Rogue in my group doesn't want something. So that means I need to roll on some gear. Now if I'm doing DKP, I don't want to spend them on, say, Ferocious Swift Kickers or even Fiend Slayer Boots, when I know I really want the Edgewalker Longboots. If I'm not using DKP, then I'm just being selfish if I just roll on EVERYTHING that's an upgrade for me. So, to me, you have to pick the best gear for your class in every dungeon and roll on those pieces. That means I pick leather every single time. Now, yes, if there is a throw-away mail gear that all the hunters have that's better than my current gear in that slot, I'll roll on it. But that's it. Otherwise, I think mail is for hunters and leather is for rogues and enhancement shaman.

As for not having enough mana, I don't have a problem with it, and my enhancement gear has only one or two pieces of mail. With all leather gear, a lvl 70 tauren shaman should have 4577 mana, and that would be completely refilled with every Shamanistic Rage. If not, then maybe you need to use a pot. That would be rare, and hunters and mages would laugh at you for crying about that.
#3292SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
My opinion, regardless of DKP being used or not, is to never pass on an upgrade even if you know some boss further down the line drops something 'better'. Its always beneficial to take what you can when you can get it without hoping and praying for the RNG to show you some love. Passing on a Mail item that's an upgrade because there is a Leather item later on seems silly to me.
#3293SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
Our retadin is doing pretty well, still threat capped, still missing some items, he has full T6 quality healing gear before he asked if he could swap. his armory is here The Armory check out his second trinket!

Btw Malan, change your avatar back! I keep thinking its Nite_Moogle every time you post.
#3294SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Btw Malan, change your avatar back! I keep thinking its Nite_Moogle every time you post.
Shhh.... It has begun.


(If you were in the Benefactor Bar with all the other cool kids Stigmata, you'd know about these things! Now go fork over your :10bux
#3295SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
I'm cheap.
#3296SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shakkha
Thanks Stigmata and Sebudai for answering my question, and Jerem for the hunter PoV. I do get your points.

It seems you both went for a Melee & Hunters separate group setup. That's interesting, i didn't realized hunter were 'that' mana starved that even with JoW they would be chain chugging mana pots, i guess the marginal upgrade to mana spring won't make up for that, it's still a bit silly from a mechanical PoV that mana regen outclass atk power for hunters, that spriest > UR+GoA in other words... :s

It's a bit of a shame however to not have FI on the rogues but i guess it's simply unpractical.

I see on lossendil however that Blood Legion seem to be running with 2 enhancement shaman, apparently with a Tank group being a mixed of dps plus tank.

I'd assume groups to be tank dpswar rogue feral shaman / dpswar dpswar rogue feral shaman. (link : Loading... )
In other words it's a setup that is only viable with a melee heavy raid, not more than 6 healers i guess.
#3297SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
My opinion, regardless of DKP being used or not, is to never pass on an upgrade even if you know some boss further down the line drops something 'better'. Its always beneficial to take what you can when you can get it without hoping and praying for the RNG to show you some love. Passing on a Mail item that's an upgrade because there is a Leather item later on seems silly to me.
So you're saying we should roll on leather AND mail gear ANY time it's an upgrade, even though our actual DPS gained from those items is less than what a hunter or rogue would gain?

By that, I mean to say that if you had the same leather gloves as a rogue and you both got Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation, he would gain more dps than you would from that item. Similarly, if you had the same mail gloves as a hunter and then you both got the same mail gloves, the Hunter would gain more dps from it than you would.

Do you dispute that?

I think the best way to put this is, where do you put a stop to this? When leather gear drops for rogues, do hunters, enhance shaman, rogues, and dps warriors all roll for it? IMO, no. Hunters stick to mail gear because they need the INT. Warriors stick to plate because the armor rating is so useful to them (throw on a shield and they can OT in a pinch). I do think, however, that enhance shaman should roll against rogues because that is the best gear for them.

Let's say you allow enhance shaman to roll against both hunters and rogues. Now let's say that as a group, all of you have the best stuff you can get from heroics and have NO epics. Out of that 10-man group, the shaman will most likely be the first to get full epic gear from Kara (because of having the most chances at gear to roll on). Now consider that the enhance shaman still isn't doing as much damage as the less-geared hunters and rogues in the group. If nothing about that sounds strange to you, I'll shut up.
#3298SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
One page ago you were saying that I need to put a line up that says "wear more leather," and now you're questioning taking leather over rogues because they get more DPS out of it? Make up your mind.

And yes, if an item drops and I can use it, and its an upgrade, I stick my lot into the pile and wait for the system to see who gets it based on DKP priority. Any discussion of anything related to that aspect of it is pretty silly since everyone is running different loot priority systems, and doesn't belong in this thread. My point was that an upgrade is an upgrade regardless of how much or how little armor is on it. Take what you can use when you can use it.

Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 11:54 AM.
#3299SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ fangar
Originally Posted by Malan
Shhh.... It has begun.


(If you were in the Benefactor Bar with all the other cool kids Stigmata, you'd know about these things! Now go fork over your :10bux
I've been following the Moogle revolution and am so tempted to Honk Honk, but I just don't want to seem like a follower. Must resist the Moogle.

Umm to keep this Enhancement Shaman related.
Should I be using a Malchazeen with Flametongue? I hear it's just awesome for max DPS.








I kid. I kid.

Last edited by fangar : 10/04/07 at 12:15 PM.
#3300SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nurru
Originally Posted by Stigmata

Btw Malan, change your avatar back! I keep thinking its Nite_Moogle every time you post.
We walk in single fil to hide our numbers.
#3301SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.

Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been.

Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing.
#3302SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
Originally Posted by fangar
I've been following the Moogle revolution and am so tempted to Honk Honk, but I just don't want to see like a follower. Must resist the Moogle.

Umm to keep this Enhancement Shaman related.
Should I be using a Malchazeen with Flametongue? I hear it's just awesome for max DPS.








I kid. I kid.
only if you use a Emerald Ripper in your offhand with rockbiter
#3303SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.

Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been.

Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing.
Where do i see the new T6 sets? I hadn't heard of them being changed.

Also "Skanky" the set while it has wasted points on mp5 is still really good imo, the hit lost from the alternatives is, well, not acceptable to me at least.
#3304SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ridan
Where do i see the new T6 sets? I hadn't heard of them being changed.
The paladin changes list stated a rework of the t4/t5/t6 retribution set to match with their talents modifications.
Nothing official of course.
#3305SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Looks like wowdigger.com still has a char planner available so I'm working on the entry level shaman set now.

Edit - bah nevermind their interface seems broken, lots of items won't add to the character. Maybe we can just find an armor profile of someone who closely matches the approximation?

Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 1:31 PM.
#3306SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
There are no changes to shaman T6. Just noticing how mp5 will be even less valuable next patch than it is now since our mana burden goes down in 2.3.

That said I have avoided t6 entirely aside from the gloves. I agree that the hit is hard to make up but some of those pieces are genuinely confusing with their over spending on stam, int and mp5.
#3307SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
This thread [RAID] Boss armor values has some good data that I'm sure some people here would be interested in.
#3308SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
One page ago you were saying that I need to put a line up that says "wear more leather," and now you're questioning taking leather over rogues because they get more DPS out of it? Make up your mind.
You miss my point. Let me try this again. Do you agree with me on these points?

1) Rogues and hunters would get bigger dps increases from leather and mail upgrades (respectively) than we would, if both of us were moving from the same piece to the same piece.

2) If an enhance shaman, a hunter, and a rogue are all geared in the best gear they can get from heroics with no Kara gear, and all are allowed to roll on any items that are an upgrade for them, and all go to Kara together every week, the Shaman will get upgrades faster than either of the other two.

My point isn't that we shouldn't be allowed to roll on anything but scraps. My point is, we should pick either rolling on mail but getting leather when the rogues/druids don't want it, or getting leather and rolling on mail when hunters don't want it. The reason is, if we don't do it that way, then we'll be gearing up faster than either of them, even though we can't put that gear to as good of use as they can.

I can't imagine a guild (non-DKP at least) that wouldn't have a problem with you rolling on anything that's an upgrade for you. If you do use DKP, I think it's smarter to wait for the best gear for you at every level, which is always going to be leather.

If everyone thinks we should be valuing mail, then put an AEP behind it. From my perspective, mail is almost always worse than leather, and it's only going to be moreso after 2.3, when water shield will mean we would have minimal mana issues, even in all leather.

Last edited by Ilmater : 10/04/07 at 1:49 PM.
#3309SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2BoinKlasik
edit: nevermind, i post too slow.
#3310SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ilmater
My point isn't that we shouldn't be allowed to roll on anything but scraps. My point is, we should pick either rolling on mail but getting leather when the rogues/druids don't want it, or getting leather and rolling on mail when hunters don't want it. The reason is, if we don't do it that way, then we'll be gearing up faster than either of them, even though we can't put that gear to as good of use as they can.
This is entirely a DKP system discussion. If you are in a system that lets you choose either leather OR mail, then yes, by all means, take both as the opportunity presents itself. Clearly if you are able to take an item its because you have more points, higher priority, won the roll, loot council approved it, whatever. At that point it doesn't matter who can get a higher gain from the item, the loot system will have already established that the rogues/hunters are lower in priority because they probably have recently looted items. Its got nothing to do with whether we "should" do so.

If you do use DKP, I think it's smarter to wait for the best gear for you at every level, which is always going to be leather.
Waiting for items is silly, I've had guys in guilds refuse to upgrade gear because they wanted that one "uber item" off the endboss. What's the point of that? In the meantime you're falling farther and farther behind everyone else who IS upgrading. If I need new gloves, and T5 gloves drop, why should I pass those up while *hoping* that I might have a crack at some better leather ones later?

As I said, I take every upgrade as it presents itself. If its mail and there's better leather out there, well I'll either wait my turn on it or maybe the rogues will drop in priority before that item drops and I'll get it anyways. Drops are not guaranteed. You could pass an upgrade on a mail item only to never see the leather one. Does that make sense?

Its fine if you disagree, that's your method in your system. But I'm not going to make a blanket statement of "never take mail" or "only take it under X Y and Z situations" because that is highly dependent upon the individual player and their guild environment.

Edit @Boink - No. 2.3 is changing talents such that Enhance will be more mana efficient, thus making the value of Mp5 even worse. No changes to gear have been announced or even rumored.

Last edited by Malan : 10/04/07 at 1:59 PM.
#3311SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Kemerogh
DKP and Item Priority

When you're in a guild enviorment you're focus should be on the progression of the guild. If there is an Item that will increase youre overall Dps or effectivness to the raid what so ever over somthing you have now and would not net gain the raid more by going to another player than you should take it regardless of your loss of priority if the famed X item drops that you want. You should be trying to get as good as possible as quickly as possible. Not passing on items because you would like to hope for somthing better later on.
#3312SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Juice
Can we debate DKP and looting practices someplace else? This thread is better off discussing the bottom line impact/effectiveness of loot item X or Y, not which class should have first loot priority or if a guild should allow DKP stockpiling in the face of upgrades.
#3313SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Kemerogh
When you're in a guild enviorment you're focus should be on the progression of the guild. If there is an Item that will increase your overall Dps or effectivness to the raid what so ever over something you have now and would not net gain the raid more by going to another player than you should take it regardless of your loss of priority if the famed X item drops that you want. You should be trying to get as good as possible as quickly as possible. Not passing on items because you would like to hope for somthing better later on.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. If you go strictly by what you're talking about there, you would never roll against a rogue or hunter for ANY item if you both had the same item to start with. You'd only get stuff when the hunters and rogues didn't want it, or when they have a pretty good piece and you have a awful piece. Either way, I think the ways we gear ourselves are wrong if we don't have a happy medium.

Let me try to say this a different way:

When I see an enhance shaman in all mail gear (I see plenty), I immediately assume they're bad... because they are. There is no way they have never come upon a possibility for leather gear somewhere.

That's why I think there should be something in the first post saying, AT LEAST, "Hey, leather gear is really good for enhancement shaman. The armor doesn't really matter for raiding
#3314SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Juice
Can we debate DKP and looting practices someplace else? This thread is better off discussing the bottom line impact/effectiveness of loot item X or Y, not which class should have first loot priority or if a guild should allow DKP stockpiling in the face of upgrades.
My original question dealt with itemization, and specifically what should be on the first page of this thread. I firmly believe we should say SOMETHING about leather gear vs. mail gear in the first post.
#3315SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
I think the following paragraph can be included to clear up the confusion. Feel free to use it in the front page if you want to Malan. These are really information that's being repeated. Feel free to correct me if I have any bad information as well.

Itemization -In a Nut Shell
Actively Pursue: Strength, Agility, Crit Rating, Attack Power
Do not actively pursue, but do not avoid: Hit Rating
Actively Avoid: Mp5
What does not matter: Armor Class

In terms of Tier 5 and Lower, a lot of the mail DPS pieces offered involve a substantial amount of MP5. Due to the fact that MP5 cost a large amount of item budget, the actual DPS stat that Enhancement Shaman are able to use are greatly diminished. On the other hand, Rogue itemization (abundance of agility, crit rating, and attack power) is near optimal for a Shaman in a lot of the cases. As a result, Leather should NOT be avoided because of its armor class. In a 25 man raid setting, it often matters little to an enhancement shaman as most mobs hit too hard to make Armor Class distinguished (most mob can one or two shot you regardless of armor class).

Whether you should take Leather over a Rogue or a druid is an ethical problem we're not going to cover here. However, from the pure viewpoints of stat allocation, do NOT actively avoid leather.
#3316SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Shalas
There's no reason to "activly avoid" mp5. Given two otherwise identical items, the item with more mp5 certainly isn't worse than the item with less, and in some situations will be slightly better. If itemization was perfect you'd never want to equip an item with mp5 on it, but with actual itemization it's entirly possible for an item with wasted stat points to still be the best item available for that slot.
#3317SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmatar
Errr, this is getting really nitpickey. I mean, we could discuss the merits of putting Stormstrike as hotkey '4' on the action bar vs '7' since '4' is closer to the home-row too thus maximizing both your dps and your wpm, as well.
#3318SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
Its fine if you disagree, that's your method in your system. But I'm not going to make a blanket statement of "never take mail" or "only take it under X Y and Z situations" because that is highly dependent upon the individual player and their guild environment.
My point isn't to say that we should say any of that. But a simple mention of the fact that leather should be considered or something to that regard. I see so many enhancement shaman that are in all leather that I'm sure just think it's what you do without regard to itemization. They use your AEP weights, maybe, but they still only consider mail armor. In fact, leather armor is almost always superior, so why not mention it. Just talk about how armor really isn't that important to us and leather is usually itemized better for us with an equivalent gear level... something to that effect.

You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post?
#3319SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Ilmater
My point isn't to say that we should say any of that. But a simple mention of the fact that leather should be considered or something to that regard. I see so many enhancement shaman that are in all leather that I'm sure just think it's what you do without regard to itemization. They use your AEP weights, maybe, but they still only consider mail armor. In fact, leather armor is almost always superior, so why not mention it. Just talk about how armor really isn't that important to us and leather is usually itemized better for us with an equivalent gear level... something to that effect.

You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post?
But, mail looks so much better, eyeballs and thunderstorms > frilly green and black. AEP weights are nice for quick comparisons but those shouldn't be your only basis on a gear upgrade. Depending on what you do in a raid(shock/totems/both) int can actually be beneficial. If you ran strictly leather gear with no int you'd be at ~6k buffed mana, keeping up stormstrike/totems every 10 seconds is an 8k mana investment every 2 mins without shocking; even if shamanistic rage does fill up your mana bar you're still sitting on E for 30 seconds. Pretty much the same thing if you're purely shocking- it's even more mana to sustain(nearly 9k).

I'll totally agree that almost any stat is better, but int is something that shouldn't be totally disregarded. New watershield will definitely alleviate some of the mana pressure, though!
#3320SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
You all agree with my point that leather is good, so why not mention it in the first post?
Leather is not inherently good. There are some pieces of leather that are good and there are some that are not good. There is nothing that says anything regarding AC at all in the first post, and it's largely up to the player whether or not they want to (or are able to) give up the AC that mail affords.

Seriously, do you think there are shamans that grasp the complexities of weapon speed and windfury interaction at a level where they actually understand it that haven't put any consideration in to using leather gear?
#3321SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2ravezero
Originally Posted by rava
New watershield will definitely alleviate some of the mana pressure, though!
Factor that in with -60% mana cost (patch 2.3 talent) on shocks after a crit (which means you should be getting nearly all of your shocks discounted if you're reasonably geared) and you can afford a much smaller base mana pool, allowing you to focus on pure DPS enhancing gear like what you'd find on leather.

I'm hoping these Shammy talent changes indicates some specialized mail will be in our itemization future that sits low on mp/5 and int and focuses strongly on our more valuable AEP stats. Possibly some of the new Badge of Justice items? Cross your fingers... I'd rather be in mail, but not at the cost of DPS.
#3322SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2reverendwill
Why is a resto shaman wearing mail arguing so hard about leather to enhancement shamans? If I believe what you say then you suck as a shaman because you have no leather items. If all you really wanted was a mention in the first post that shamans shouldn't over look leather items, it shouldn't take three huge posts to make your point.

I agree with Malan, take whatever upgrade your guild allows you to get. This is not a huge deal.
#3323SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Ilmater
Let me try to say this a different way:

When I see an enhance shaman in all mail gear (I see plenty), I immediately assume they're bad... because they are. There is no way they have never come upon a possibility for leather gear somewhere.
I'm bad because I'm in all mail gear? Wow.
#3324SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Oteb
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only
#3325SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
@Ilmater, Are you posting purely to try to get a rise out of people?

I suggest you head back to the wow forum and take the attitude with you.
#3326SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Oteb
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only
It's working correctly, the talent effects yellow damage as well as white, but yellow damage uses a two-roll system.
#3327SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Ahindwe
Originally Posted by Stigmata
@Ilmater, Are you posting purely to try to get a rise out of people?

I suggest you head back to the wow forum and take the attitude with you.
Agreed. There are several very well informed, skilled and progressed players posting in this thread that wear little or no leather at all. The attitude and blanket statements based on opinion aren't really needed here.
#3328SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Roxn
Stochastics

I'm new to the forum. This is in fact my first post. I have been interested in the mathematics of melee dps for a long time but have never been able to think of a simple way to model it. As an applied math grad student my first impulse is to use stochastics.

The problem I can't get past is how to reconcile the different time scales inherent in the problem. Talents like flurry, windfury, unleashed rage etc create small time scale correlations. Most of what I've read so far appear to be central limit theorem approximations. Which are valid only for very long time scales. My intuition tells me that on most of the timescales that matter in this game such an approximation is probably not very good.

A common means of reconciling these time scales in applied math is to "match" a small time scale solution to the long time scale (central limit theorem) solution.

Has anyone considered this?
Has anyone derived a stochastic or otherwise dynamical model for enhancement shaman dps?
#3329SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Oteb
Hmm. I think i found a glitch in Yo! sim.
It improperly applies thundering strikes to WF and StormStrikewhile this talent effects white damage only
This is wrong. Thundering Strikes affects ALL melee damage and was confirmed as such recently by a CM post.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3330SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by berg
The leather/mail dispute really becomes a non factor at T6. There are a lot of random pieces and fortunately for us the rogues and hunters love their T6 sets.

Our T6 set is a little bit skanky except for the gloves which are top notch. So picking up random mail/leather is really easier than it has ever been.

Seriously though our T6 set is going to look even worse in 2.3. Who needs 40 mp5? Those points could have been like 50 agi and -350 armor or something along those lines which would have made the set amazing.
I believe the najentus gloves come out over the T6, and the only T6 piece I can see myself taking ever is shoulders. I really love how enh has more mp5 on it than elemental, and around 25 less than the resto set, in which mp5 which is resto's main stat.
#3331SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
T.K.
Retarded double post

Last edited by T.K. : 10/05/07 at 4:51 PM. Reason: double post
#3332SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
T.K.
About mail vs. leather disc:

Saying that some class should have priority over some type of item is just poor sighting of raid potential increment.

All systems used by guilds all over the world have their ups and downs, and they work fine for them. Be it DKP, loot councyl, roll or whatever, those systems have their own ways of normalizing the itens distribution over the raid. Such distribution is needed so the raid has it's power evenly distributed among all members.

Why would we want to distribute raid power among all? Basically because if you do like you say and let hunters and rogues get it first because supoosedly they get more of it than a enhance. and one of them die or whatever, you loose a damn chunck of raid power. If you let people roll at what they need, their loot system will at some point soothen the raid power along all members such if one or two die you still have the power to continue encounters. What good would be, for example, to give all loot to a warrior tank if you use a paladin tank at some point and he's not geared to handle it? What good for would be a hunter that had pref at all mail gear and for some reason died at a encounter?

loosing a good chunk of raid power with just one death is bad at my eyes and so i'd try to avoid it at any time. Here what i really think people is trying, is to show people what would they look after, and than everyone can make their own decisions, not just point out loud: "YOU SHOULD TAKE THIS OVER THIS!!!"


About the group setup and second enhance...

My raid uses 2 enhance shammies most of the time. We currently at 20% Kael (when healers amazingly let our tank die without any heals in more than 20 secs O.o).
Our groups comp. are almost all the time:

G1
Rogue
Rogue
Rogue/Drood
DPS warr
Enhance. Shammy

G2 (Wich i'm aways at)
Hunter Mark
Hunter BM
Enhance. Shammy (Me)
Spriest
Drood

We're really having some nice results with this, as my dps is almosy aways higher than other shammy and our hunters just rape things with this much mana support such.
i know this is not perfect buffing setup, but it's been working fine for us and i think we'll be using that for hyjal/BT anyway.

Here's my Armory if anyone interested...

The Armory

Oh...btw, KAEL DOWN!!!!! YEAH BABE!!

Last edited by T.K. : 10/05/07 at 4:53 PM. Reason: Can't stop "U"!!!
#3333SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Sebudai
Personally I try to stick with mail items and let the rogues get their leather first, even if some of the leather items are clearly better than the mail ones for me. Once the zone is on farm and the rogues have all picked up what they need, I'll go ahead and start sending on the good leather items. Our loot system promotes sending on small upgrades like this.

I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P
#3334SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Denrye
Weapon Choices

First, this may be in pages 5-95 of this thread, and if so I apologize.

But when I look at the end game weapon choices listed, and the combinations that are recommended, I noticed several of the advised combinations use OH weapons that are faster than the MH weapons. This seems to me to be something which, although it may allow you to actually equip better weapons, would ultimately be detrimental to overall dps.
#3335SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Personally I try to stick with mail items and let the rogues get their leather first, even if some of the leather items are clearly better than the mail ones for me. Once the zone is on farm and the rogues have all picked up what they need, I'll go ahead and start sending on the good leather items. Our loot system promotes sending on small upgrades like this.

I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P
You should never let Grim take loot over you. Also, reroll alliance, because the gnome goggles are by far the best helm in existence.
#3336SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2PSGarak
Roxn, I think Stochastics is an unecessarily heavy hammer to hit the problem with. Most of the problems reduce algebraicly without too much work. Of course, I dislike probability in the first place so I'm probably biased.
If I understand you right, an example of your primary concern is how to model flurry and windfury since flurry affects windfury cooldowns (in number of swings) and windfury affects flurry proc rate? I think modeling that as an iterative or dynamic process is unnecessary. While I haven't done the work it seems like the relation could be disentangled into a closed-form solution with simple algebra, for flurry uptime (in percent of swings) and effective windfury proc rate.
#3337SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Brachamul
Flametongue

Hi,

I'd like to make a comment regarding Flametongue Weapon with patch 2.3.

Back in the days before BC I played elemental, and I figured that 10% of my spell power went straight into my Flametongue Weapon's damage. This happened regardless of weapon speed, meaning a very fast weapon was clearly favorable.

If things haven't changed, and with the +15% damage to flametongue talent, this is how much damage a Shaman would deal with a 1.4 speed weapon if he had 0 spell damage but 2500ap converted into spell damage.

Base Flametongue damage on 1.4 weapon (Offhand) :

Base = 50 damage per hit
Spell Power through AP = 750
Damage per Hit = (75+50)*1.15 = 125 = 145
Damage per Second = 100

DPS is increased by Flurry obviously.

(I realise these numbers are quite rough, but they are mainly here to give you an idea.)

Do you think that Flametongue will maybe beat Windfury under certain conditions after 2.3 for an Offhand weapon?

EDIT: In fact, in raid situation, the boss will generally be affected by the fire mage +15% fire damage, and the Curse of Elements, +10% fire damage, so the added DPS will go up to around 126 damage / sec.

Last edited by Brachamul : 10/05/07 at 7:49 AM.
#3338SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2rava
Originally Posted by Brachamul
Hi,

I'd like to make a comment regarding Flametongue Weapon with patch 2.3.

Back in the days before BC I played elemental, and I figured that 10% of my spell power went straight into my Flametongue Weapon's damage. This happened regardless of weapon speed, meaning a very fast weapon was clearly favorable.

If things haven't changed, and with the +15% damage to flametongue talent, this is how much damage a Shaman would deal with a 1.4 speed weapon if he had 0 spell damage but 2500ap converted into spell damage.

Base Flametongue damage on 1.4 weapon (Offhand) :

Base = 50 damage per hit
Spell Power through AP = 750
Damage per Hit = (75+50)*1.15 = 125 = 145
Damage per Second = 100

DPS is increased by Flurry obviously.

(I realise these numbers are quite rough, but they are mainly here to give you an idea.)

Do you think that Flametongue will maybe beat Windfury under certain conditions after 2.3 for an Offhand weapon?
Interesting revelation. It's a shame that this isn't discussed in the first post under a bolded heading "FlameTongue Weapon in 2.3" with specific links to posts regarding the matter.
#3339SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Oteb
Originally Posted by Rob
It's working correctly, the talent effects yellow damage as well as white, but yellow damage uses a two-roll system.
Could you elaborate a little? I know there are different systems for determining hits for white and yellow damage. But I dont think i understand why swstats always shows my white crit % to be 4-5% higher than my yellow crit%. Is it because it calculates crit% out of connected swings and its ends up higher since i miss more with white than yellow making same number of crit% end up being higher % total? And would/should the be exactly the same at hit cap?
#3340SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mulgero
Back shortly to leather vs. mail discussion I think this is a bit eternal discussion as rogues don't want enhance to roll "their" loot and hunter propably either. It really won't work well if you wait gearing up yourself letting rogues and hunters get loot first cause they might do marginally more damage with the pieces than you.

Mage A does more damage than mage B, should B let mage A have all loot first cause he can pump out more damage due being maybe little more skilled with stop macros or just happens to have less lag? Answer is no.

Everyone in raid need to gear up not just guy or 2 by taking best gear availlable (common sense should be of course used). I'd love to use mail only but more or less leather just seems to be best option no matter of what instance we talk.

With kara and gruul gear I have about 6k mana raid buffed and I don't see how much another 2k mana would be more beneficial than adding those points along mp/5 to str/ap/crit... As long as you can keep totems up and run mana based skills/spells will not do more damage than melee/wf.

I like the idea in 2.3 changes for enhance that casting might have bigger role in enhance shamans skill usage and dps but still it won't make int or mp/5 preferred or even wanted stats on enhance gear.
#3341SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2crimsonsentinel
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
#3342SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Stigmata
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
I dont think it really matters since you will replace everything every few levels.
#3343SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Jerem
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
I created a shaman after reading this thread, and I levelled it trying to stick as much as possible to what is explained here.
During your levelling, FT on fast weapons might be more efficient, but I just saw my 0-70 levelling as an opportunity to start getting familiar with what my gameplay would be at 70, and to put some "theories" into application (you never really KNOW that slow/slow is better for WF until you see it, I guess).
Using WF on slow/slow, waiting for a WF proc before using Stormstrike, selecting my gear (whether it was quest rewards or greens from the AH) following the logic described here might not have been the fastest or easiest way to level up, but it certainly gave me automatisms I still use when I'm raiding or running Heroics with my Shaman.

EDIT : and to answer the question better, I was spending about 20G every 3 or 4 levels on a blue BoE mace when I could. I could afford it easily, and good speed and stats weapons are rare, so I just took any upgrade I could. But, as Stigmata said, you do replace them every few levels.

Last edited by Jerem : 10/05/07 at 8:49 AM.
#3344SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shabadu
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I definitely plan on eventually looting Midnight Chestguard, Cursed Vision of Sargeras, Insidious Bands, Shadowmaster's Boots and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. Cursed Vision and Midnight Chestguard are pretty ridiculous items, actually. They're way better than the mail equivalents. My math has Cursed Vision a full 80 AEP better than the next best helm. =P
I just looted the helm and chest this week, with both of our rogues having all of them already. Pretty huge upgrade from the mail chest from Arch and the T6 helm. Those are likely to be my only leather pieces aside from Mantle of Darkness, which I plan on replacing with the Akama shoulders.
#3345SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2siaheed
With everyone asking about the FT proc being better or not every couple days does anyone have a simulator that has FT imbue as an option? I know Yo's doesn't and that seems to be what everyone is treating as gospel. I think its only fair if FT damage was properly added to this simulator or any other simulators not mentioned in the first post where your getting all this parse info from about windfury.

I think that if FT is properly represented in a simulator in its current state you'll find that it may exceed WF in some gear setups/ raids and that Wf/Wf will be better for solo/group, unless your trying to hit a banshee in Hyjal =/
#3346SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2dedy
Hi all this is my first post i hope this question doesnt interfere in the topic.
I have played few months with 2 fel edged axes

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fel Edged Battleaxe

But this week i have obtained, 2 new weapons and now i dont know what to do:
here you got both combinations

MH Fool's Bane + OH merciless gladiator cleaver
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver

or

MH merciless gladiator cleaver + OH fel edged axes

Friends tell me second option is better because merciless in off hand lost lot of damage but i dont know if the first option makes up for this lost of damage

What do you think first option or second?
#3347SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I just looted the helm and chest this week, with both of our rogues having all of them already. Pretty huge upgrade from the mail chest from Arch and the T6 helm. Those are likely to be my only leather pieces aside from Mantle of Darkness, which I plan on replacing with the Akama shoulders.
Thats a good week for sure. Sadly we have not gotten any of the chests and we are all starting to hit exalted. And yes like mentioned above the illidan helm is so far ahead of every other helm, it is not even close.
#3348SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
Dear dedy. First read first post then you will notice that there is some simulator(easy to use) and you can do all hard work for yourself.
#3349SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Nite_Moogle
ATTENTION EVERY PERSON SAYING THAT FLAMETONGUE WILL BE AWESOME.

Flametongue gets 10% of your spell damage as +dmg. That means once 2.3 is introduced that you will have 3% of your AP as +damage for Flametongue (.1*.3*AP).

Three percent.

Assuming that you somehow manage to get the best fast dagger in the game ( Messenger of Fate - Items - World of Warcraft ), its 1.4 speed means you're going to do 65/2 = 33 (we'll be generous) damage per hit with it before +dmg. If you have 3000 AP, it'll get 90 additional damage per hit for a total whopping per-hit damage of 122, or 87 DPS. Even assuming a full Scorch stack and Curse of Elements, it tops out at 110 DPS. A laughably low crit rate means you might get 120 DPS out of it if you're lucky.

OR.

You could get Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft [earlier in the zone no less]-- with 3000 AP, a single extra Windfury proc on the offhand is worth around 520 damage on each hit assuming no crits, meaning at least 1000 damage per proc. If you've got a 30% crit rate, it's worth an average of 1352. Without a single debuff on the mob and assuming it's got 7700 armor for ~43% mitigation (the high average among raid mobs as reported by this thread), you're still looking at 770 per proc. Debuffing the NPC with a full sunder stack and faerie fire drops the mob to ~4400 AC and ~30% mitigation, your average offhand WF proc is still worth 946 per hit. This means you'd need an average of 7.8 FT hits to make up for a single offhand WF proc -- an actual proc rate of 13% is all that is needed for Windfury to equal Flametongue's best circumstances.

This is to say nothing of the fact that even as a Draeni you're going to get a 12% resist rate on Flametongue against Boss NPCs without gearing for spell hit whereas you can eliminate any WF misses completely through talents alone, leaving only dodges to contend with (this is assuming you went resto for the rest of your points for 3% hit/spellhit -- ironically putting points in the elemental tree makes Flametongue's damage worse since you lose 3% spell hit). Additionally, Flametongue will not proc Flurry nor Shamanistic Rage and using a fast weapon lowers your Stormstrike damage since it is not a normalizied attack. Further still, FT makes no use of Leader of the Pack, Blood Frenzy, or -Armor items or further debuffs on the NPC.

Haste will affect FT in a more positive manner than WF because of the cooldown, but not by a significant amount. You would need an unreasonably large amount of passive haste to close the gap between the two imbues.

Flametongue will not be worth using in raids for Enhancement shamans until they change the way it scales.

Edit: I screwed up and used the FT main hand damage value initially. It's actually much worse.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/05/07 at 11:41 AM.
#3350SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2berg
Also moogle having FT on offhand takes mh wf back down to ~20% instead of the roughly 35% it is with dw wf.

All things considered this will still give us huge benefits to searing totem, healing stream and our shocks so it is a fabulous change for us but flame tongue will not be viable unless it is completely revamped.
#3351SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Bink
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel
If I'm leveling a shaman, ...is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands or will it be better to use flametongue?
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I dont think it really matters since you will replace everything
every few levels.
While my armor was constantly changing, I went with a slightly different approach for the post 40 weapon selection. I bought a Heaven's Light (slow blue mainhand), a Stonevault Bonebreaker (a slow blue offhand) and enchanted both with crusader. Crusader easily doubles your attack power and the passive healing makes for a nice buffer.

My personal experience with using dual windfury had my damage outshining everyone I grouped with, and you won't have to worry about weapon upgrades until you hit hellfire.
#3352SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel
Don't know if this is for raiding shaman only so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, but here goes:

If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
I didn't like WF from 30-40 due to how inconsistant it is on a 2h, but once you get DW it's hilariously overpowered. Getting appropriate weapons is hard, but with them 41-58 was some of the easiest leveling I've ever done.
#3353SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Kurisu
Originally Posted by dedy
Hi all this is my first post i hope this question doesnt interfere in the topic.
I have played few months with 2 fel edged axes

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fel Edged Battleaxe

But this week i have obtained, 2 new weapons and now i dont know what to do:
here you got both combinations

MH Fool's Bane + OH merciless gladiator cleaver
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver

or

MH merciless gladiator cleaver + OH fel edged axes

Friends tell me second option is better because merciless in off hand lost lot of damage but i dont know if the first option makes up for this lost of damage

What do you think first option or second?
You will want to use the fool's bane MH and the Merciless OH becaus if you use Fel edged in your offhand it has a good chance to dominate your WF procs since it will hit first before your Main hand. Please refer to the graphical chart in the first post for the example.

[e] Anywho, give the simulator a try and it should give you some results.

__________________
Originally Posted by irc
[01:11] deric: my wife needs to be my RL
[01:11] deric: then we can RP raid encounters in bed

Last edited by Kurisu : 10/05/07 at 1:07 PM.
#3354SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Hamilburg
Originally Posted by crimsonsentinel
If I'm leveling a shaman (basically crap gear, low crit/hit rates, low AP, although I can probably buy decent blue weapons), is it still worth it to use windfury on both hands (or a 2 hander before level 40) with slow weapons or will it be better to use flametongue? All the posts I've seen are based of normal level 70 raiding stats so I don't really know how to compare.
For un-twinked levelling, I swear by Flametongue once you hit 40. The mixed rank flametongue bug between still has not been fixed, meaning that dual FT gives a strong, non-gear-dependent return on all attacks, and is independent of weapon speed (though obviously you still prefer slow weapons for Stormstrike).
#3355SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yakout
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Additionally, Flametongue will not proc Flurry nor Shamanistic Rage and using a fast weapon lowers your Stormstrike damage since it is not a normalizied attack.
I'm not arguing with the overarching thesis (WF still > FT), but this point at least may not be correct. Well, the first half. FT won't proc flurry or rage, but the dagger will be about two times faster (pre-haste), so you'll be getting a lot more guaranteed hits to proc these, assuming you have the +hit to back that up. On the other hand, the Rage procs will be smaller than WF Rage procs, and the faster weapon will eat Flurry charges faster too.

Honestly, I'd like to have a sim that handles FT so I could play around with it, but it's more idle curiosity than a serious conviction that it would be effective.
#3356SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Disquette
When I edited my sim to include flametongue, it was respectable, but not better than wf/wf.

Also, a faster weapon reduces your % of attacks in flurry - it's not a net wash. This is especially componded if you don't have WF on that fast weapon.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#3357SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2siaheed
I still maintain that a publicly used simulator such as Yo's should include Ft and all its properties in a raid environment. If I knew how to write the program I'd do it myself. Then anyone sitting on either of side the fence on this could be right. Untill there is said simulator its as if all you Wind fury fanatics are treating everyone else like they are Galileo Galilei.
#3358SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Roxn
Stochastics

While I haven't done the work it seems like the relation could be disentangled into a closed-form solution with simple algebra, for flurry uptime (in percent of swings) and effective windfury proc rate
I'm not saying it's wrong, I haven't worked anything out. My instinct tells me that on short time scales this approach is flawed.

As an example consider this. Suppose you do a really long experiment which involves hitting some mob for 20 minutes. You collect statistics on that data set and I would expect it to agree very well with the algebraic formulations of dps I've seen here.

Now do twenty 1 min experiments, collect statistics and calculate the expected dps for a 1min fight, and I bet the results are different.

The essential idea is that for them to be the same you would have to be able to chop up your 20 min experiment into 1 min chunks and have those chunks be plausible 1 min representations. I don't think they are.

The reason I think this is important is for practical raid purposes. On one hand you want to be able to do great long term dps in which case you consult the reasoning already done here. On the other hand when you're clearing you are sometimes hitting each mob for a few seconds only. So when clearing you are essentially doing the repeated short time experiments for which the algebraic formulations may not work.

What I've seen people do is "match" a solution to a short time frame situation. Literally assume a short fight and reason out the solution. Then compare it to your long term solution.
#3359SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by siaheed
I still maintain that a publicly used simulator such as Yo's should include Ft and all its properties in a raid environment. If I knew how to write the program I'd do it myself. Then anyone sitting on either of side the fence on this could be right. Untill there is said simulator its as if all you Wind fury fanatics are treating everyone else like they are Galileo Galilei.
I think you should probably read the math I did on the last page. Substitute any AP value you want in to the calculations -- Flametongue is not going to beat Windfury. FT is better at high values of AP since the base value is so terrible, and WF scales faster than FT does. It's pretty basic. You're not getting treated like Galileo, you're getting treated like someone who is not willing to do the math then doesn't read the work when it's posted for you anyway.
#3360SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Stigmata
@Ilmater, Are you posting purely to try to get a rise out of people?

I suggest you head back to the wow forum and take the attitude with you.
I don't have an attitude! I'm honestly just trying to debate this. I do feel that at least a mention of leather on the first post would be nice, but if nobody agrees, I'll happily shut up. I'm just trying to help this thing help others as much as possible.
Originally Posted by Illundai
I'm bad because I'm in all mail gear? Wow.
This brings up a good point. We're just now getting to SSC, so the only gear I've seen is Kara, Gruul, and Mags. Up to the point I've reached, all the best gear is leather, even over T4. After looking around, I don't see a lot of places where leather is better than mail because almost all the gear past SSC is set piece gear.

That being said, it looks like, to me, the best wrists available are Insidious Bands - Items - World of Warcraft. If you haven't had a chance to get them, no problem. If you had a chance to get the Insidious Bands but you waited for Wraps of Precise Flight (I don't think you do, but for argument's sake) then yes, I'd say that you mad a bad choice.

Your shoulders are the best I see in the game, they're mail, and they have no INT or MP5 (INCREDIBLY rare), so they're an exception again because they don't have points wasted on those stats.

I do think as someone else said that leather becomes less worthwhile once you're in Hyjal/BT, or even The Eye, but if you come out of Kara or lvl 70 Heroics in full Mail, no, your gear isn't so great.
#3361SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Aknazer
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
ATTENTION EVERY PERSON SAYING THAT FLAMETONGUE WILL BE AWESOME.

Flametongue gets 10% of your spell damage as +dmg. That means once 2.3 is introduced that you will have 3% of your AP as +damage for Flametongue (.1*.3*AP).

Three percent.

Assuming that you somehow manage to get the best fast dagger in the game ( Messenger of Fate - Items - World of Warcraft ), its 1.4 speed means you're going to do 65/2 = 33 (we'll be generous) damage per hit with it before +dmg. If you have 3000 AP, it'll get 90 additional damage per hit for a total whopping per-hit damage of 122, or 87 DPS. Even assuming a full Scorch stack and Curse of Elements, it tops out at 110 DPS. A laughably low crit rate means you might get 120 DPS out of it if you're lucky.

OR.

You could get Rising Tide - Items - World of Warcraft [earlier in the zone no less]-- with 3000 AP, a single extra Windfury proc on the offhand is worth around 520 damage on each hit assuming no crits, meaning at least 1000 damage per proc. If you've got a 30% crit rate, it's worth an average of 1352. Without a single debuff on the mob and assuming it's got 7700 armor for ~43% mitigation (the high average among raid mobs as reported by this thread), you're still looking at 770 per proc. Debuffing the NPC with a full sunder stack and faerie fire drops the mob to ~4400 AC and ~30% mitigation, your average offhand WF proc is still worth 946 per hit. This means you'd need an average of 7.8 FT hits to make up for a single offhand WF proc -- an actual proc rate of 13% is all that is needed for Windfury to equal Flametongue's best circumstances.

This is to say nothing of the fact that even as a Draeni you're going to get a 12% resist rate on Flametongue against Boss NPCs without gearing for spell hit whereas you can eliminate any WF misses completely through talents alone, leaving only dodges to contend with (this is assuming you went resto for the rest of your points for 3% hit/spellhit -- ironically putting points in the elemental tree makes Flametongue's damage worse since you lose 3% spell hit). Additionally, Flametongue will not proc Flurry nor Shamanistic Rage and using a fast weapon lowers your Stormstrike damage since it is not a normalizied attack. Further still, FT makes no use of Leader of the Pack, Blood Frenzy, or -Armor items or further debuffs on the NPC.

Haste will affect FT in a more positive manner than WF because of the cooldown, but not by a significant amount. You would need an unreasonably large amount of passive haste to close the gap between the two imbues.

Flametongue will not be worth using in raids for Enhancement shamans until they change the way it scales.

Edit: I screwed up and used the FT main hand damage value initially. It's actually much worse.
And why are you dividing 66 by 2? Granted a fast weapon wouldn't have a base damage of 66, but FT in OH doesn't suffer from the -50% damage penalty that physical damage suffers from. Also viable=/=better. The change can very easily make it to where things like the dagger off of prince with FT on it are better than Runic hammer with WF on it (assuming you're putting them in the OH of course).

You need to compare multiple things and not JUST the best vs the best. Right now we know that the dagger from prince is a DOWNGRADE from a lvl70 2.6 speed green (about a 30dps white dps difference in favor of the dagger), but I highly suspect that this won't be the case come 2.3. The difference between fast with FT and slow with WF I think will be close, but WF will still be better depending on the weapons available to you. Given how few decent OH weapons there are out there (and don't even bring the arena weapons into this...) this change means that we can very easily have more viable off hand weapons even if they aren't better than another off hand that you may or may not be able to get due to dkp, not being able to kill the boss it drops from, etc.

__________________
#3362SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Aknazer
Stuff that is ignoring math
Google Docs - Flametongue sucks and this is why

No. It still sucks. Go ahead and copy the spreadsheet and put in any value that you want. You need absolutely ludicrous values of AP to make any offhand more than 100 DPS from FT procs, and getting that amount of DPS from offhand Windfury procs requires a very low proc rate. It simply does. not. work.
#3363SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ilmater
I do think as someone else said that leather becomes less worthwhile once you're in Hyjal/BT, or even The Eye, but if you come out of Kara or lvl 70 Heroics in full Mail, no, your gear isn't so great.
You're completely overlooking the opportunities that the RNG may have presented that shaman. I'm wearing KZ mail boots because I've yet to be on a raid where leather boots have dropped. That sure as hell doesn't make bad, or my gear 'not so great'. We get what the game chooses to give us.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3364SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by siaheed
I still maintain that a publicly used simulator such as Yo's should include Ft and all its properties in a raid environment. If I knew how to write the program I'd do it myself. Then anyone sitting on either of side the fence on this could be right. Untill there is said simulator its as if all you Wind fury fanatics are treating everyone else like they are Galileo Galilei.
There's a difference, as nite_moogle has touched on. Galileo actually had some facts and put some effort into his claims. Don't compare yourself, in my opinion, to a person that puts a lot of effort and research in a publicly reviewable and testable manner if you're not going to do the same.

Calling any people here fanatics is laughable. There have been quite a few revelations here over the past few months that were contrary (very much so) to "common knowledge", but when the evidence was provided to the contrary, and was reviewable, "common knowledge" changed.

I don't see why you can't test this for yourself RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE. Put flametongue on a weapon, go beat on a blasted lands mob for about 60 minutes. There, that's your sim. You know what your AP is, you know what your weapon speed is, so you can calculate exactly how much damage would be done per offhand hit. Add that back into the total, and voila, you have a baseline comparison number. If wf/ft is extremely under par, you have that data point. If it whoops WF/WF arse, then you have that data point. The test isn't perfect - it's not raid buffed, you won't get as many resists, but it's still a worthwhile test to get a baseline.

I seriously don't understand why you are calling people fanatics when you apparently aren't willing to do even a simple 2 x 60 minute test (one wf/wf slow/slow, one wf/ft slow/fast) to give your hypothesis at least *some* data to work with.

__________________
----- sig ---------------
Discoepfeand - rogue / Disquette - shaman
A stormstrike / shocks /watershield timer-bar addon: http://www.curse.com/downloads/details/9729/
"Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond." - Malan
#3365SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Oteb
Could you elaborate a little? I know there are different systems for determining hits for white and yellow damage. But I dont think i understand why swstats always shows my white crit % to be 4-5% higher than my yellow crit%. Is it because it calculates crit% out of connected swings and its ends up higher since i miss more with white than yellow making same number of crit% end up being higher % total? And would/should the be exactly the same at hit cap?
In brief:
White attacks get your paperdoll crit as a percentage of all swings. (A single roll is made to determine if the attack is a Miss, Dodge, Parry, Block, Hit, Crit, or Glancing Blow.)
Yellow attacks get your paperdoll crit as a percentage of all hits. (A roll is made to determine if the attack is a Miss, Dodge, Parry, Block, or Hit, then another roll is made to determine if the attack is a Hit or Crit if the first roll was successful.)

If SWS calculates your crits as a percentage of connected swings then white will be higher for the reasons you described; if SWS calculates your crits as a percentage of all swings then white will be higher for the reasons I just described. For example: suppose you have a 10% chance to be dodged or parried and a 30% crit rate. White attacks will have a 30% crit rate out of all swings, yellow attacks will have a .9*.3 = 27% crit rate out of all swings. Your yellow attacks will consistently crit less often, even though the system is working as intended. Consider this an offsetting penalty for the lower miss rate of yellow attacks when DWing.
#3366SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Atren
So much talk of FT makes me wish 2.3 already on PTR Actual results would maybe bury this question permanently.

Btw, looking over weapon options it strikes to me that somewhy Blizzard is very careful (or afraid) implementing powerful axes. Only 2.7 speed axe is crafted while mace has 2.7 and 2.8 speed drops. Swords have Legendary 2.9 and some 2.7 at least. Anyone know why it is so? Is there something that makes implementing slow axes no-no?
#3367SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Finding the correct word

++ Added elemental damage calculation based on 2-roll system according to wowwiki Formulas:Spell_hit_chance including:
+ Searing Totem
+ Shocks with choosable shocks rotation
+ Flametongue weapon imbue
+ Raid debuffs affecting elemental damage and boss resistances
+ 30% AP to spell damage talent option
+ Elemental devastation talent option
+ Reverbation and Concussion options
+ Spell hit and Spell crit input

In short - I do not know what resists Bosses have in BT (and before it to be honest) so 365 resist may be way too much. If 365 resist is ok - flametongue imbue is bad, really bad even with 30% ap to spell damage talent and talents invested into first talent tree. If there is some Boss in a game with 0 fire resistance and high armor - (fast FT/fast FT) >(slowWF/fast FT)>> (slow WF/slow WF). So the use of FT depends on Boss and sometimes may be highly beneficial. Elemental devastation talent becomes Ok option if fast FT is used (equals to 2% crit or so) and remains very bad otherwise (so bad that I can not find shaman with it to verify if flametogue crits trigger Elemental Devastation - simulated that they do, but ST ' crits do not). Increasing any spell damage stats (spell hit, spell crit, spell damage) is very bad - your weapon damage is your main source of DPS, if you want to increase spell damage stats - respec to elemental shaman. So those expected 2.3 changes are best viewed as passive boost (about 40 dps) to Melee shamans.
Plese report any suspicious results - it may contain bugs.

__________________
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

Last edited by Yo! : 10/05/07 at 4:28 PM. Reason: Enchantment->Enchance
#3368SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Most bosses have 0 fire resist, but there's a 16% level-based resist rate for them being a +3 target. The 3% spell hit in the Resto tree is about the only way to mitigate part of that penalty for enhancement shamans.

Also:
Enchantment
What.
#3369SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Most bosses have 0 fire resist, but there's a 16% level-based resist rate for them being a +3 target. The 3% spell hit in the Resto tree is about the only way to mitigate part of that penalty for enhancement shamans.
.
Is it applied via miss chance or via increased resistance? Wowwiki suggests that 3 levels difference is about 15-24 resistance.

__________________
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
#3370SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Toots Hepcat
So that 13% resist rate should be used to reduce potential damage for FT.

And if memory serves, that "Armor values of raid bosses" thread from yesterday showed a maximum DR of 50% (from Void Reaver), not considering sunder.

Doesn't sound good for FT. But I agree -- it'll need PTR testing.
#3371SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Nite_Moogle
Is it applied via miss chance or via increased resistance?
It's applied via miss chance, but the final 1% cannot be removed (not that you'd want to gear for spell hit). A 0/42/19 shaman will have a 13% spell miss chance against a Boss mob, any x/42/0 builds have 16% spell miss. Actual stat-based resistance is negated by CoE on the vast majority of mobs, Supremus being the notable exception. It isn't worth considering in a simulator.

PS: It's not Enchance either.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/05/07 at 4:15 PM.
#3372SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Ilmater
Originally Posted by Malan
You're completely overlooking the opportunities that the RNG may have presented that shaman. I'm wearing KZ mail boots because I've yet to be on a raid where leather boots have dropped. That sure as hell doesn't make bad, or my gear 'not so great'. We get what the game chooses to give us.
OK, this has gone WAY past my intention. This is all I was suggesting... a simple statement in the first post that says:

Leather vs. Mail Gear:

Given that a majority of mail gear has INT or MP5 taking an item's budget, it is often beneficial to choose partial leather gear for raiding (whereas mail would be preferable for PvP). Use your own discretion.

Maybe more detailed than that, but I'm not going to elaborate because I'm also sick of talking about this. I just think you all over-estimate people's intelligence if you think everyone is going to honestly consider leather gear.
#3373SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Igniter
Your sim needs a [Put Flametounge on OH] button, which closes the sim.
#3374SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
The other thing you want to consider adding are the beneficial spell bonuses that Flametongue will get:

Misery, COE, Imp Scorch.

From what i remember there will also be about a 5% partial resist rate on the binary spell attack that you cannot penetrate through.

I don't think FT will beat WF, but may as well Sim it out to completion.
It'll be interested to see the actual results.

__________________
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
#3375SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by fangar
Misery, COE, Imp Scorch.
These are 5%, 10%, and 15% bonuses respectively. CoE can be 13% if the warlock takes the right talents.
#2026SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Paradox
Is it alright to ask gear questions in this thread? It's possibly the best place to ask since you will all know better than anywhere else, but I think it's just for theorycrafting the mechanics and such?

Anyway this is my dilemma.. our guild has 6/6 SSC and 3/4 TK down, and all the new gear options I am having open to me are an increase in AP and Crit, but less or no +hit at all. My current stats are as follows: AP:1478, Hit Rating: 155, Crit: 29.56%.
I picked up Boots of Effortless Striking, which gives me an increase of +8 AP, and 0.34% crit, but I completely lose out on 1.08% Hit rating from my Fiend Slayer Boots.

What's the best to use? There's a few things like this where I gain a small amount of AP and Crit, but lose a lot of hit, basically how much hit can I drop and when does the added AP/Crit outweigh the loss of hit?

Another example of this would be Ancestral Ring of Conquest, replacing my Violet Signet I will gain +8 AP and 0.84% crit, but a loss of 1.00% Hit, I really hope someone can help me out here..thank you.
Ditch the +hit. It is worth 1.4 AEP per point, and it is worth more in item budget than it is worth to us.
#2027SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Strawberry
Ah ha,

ran the test in the blasted lands -

It went Reflex blades>2.6 speed green>Malchazeen>2.6 Lvl 11 grey hatchet...

The 2.6 speed Lvl11 grey hatchet was behind malchazeen by about 50DPS; alot less than you'd think, looking at the stats, especially when you factor in the Attack power and the little bit of hit Malchazeen should give you.

So Fast weapons = suck

You were absolutely right Malan - if this was a bet you'd have won

Thanks

Last edited by Strawberry : 08/31/07 at 1:18 PM.
#2028SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
Its a sad sad reality that we live in.
#2029SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
I think a good addition to the OP would be ring enchant info regarding enhancement; I know for rogues and hunters +4 stats tops +2 weapon damage, after a good half hour of searching I'm still wondering the best one.
#2030SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Malan
I'm not an enchanter so I've little personal insight into that, although my hunch would be +4 stats as well.
#2031SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
If +4 Stats is better for Rogues who get comparatively little benefit from the INT and STR and have a faster attack speed to take better advantage of the +2 Weapon Damage, then +4 Stats will be better for Shamans as well.
#2032SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob
If +4 Stats is better for Rogues who get comparatively little benefit from the INT and STR and have a faster attack speed to take better advantage of the +2 Weapon Damage, then +4 Stats will be better for Shamans as well.
That was my initial conclusion, but I wanted to avoid making that assumption right off the bat. I was also hoping to find a conversion of +2 damage into ap, but I'm still searching.
#2033SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
#2034SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Igniter
I was also hoping to find a conversion of +2 damage into ap, but I'm still searching.
It's weapon speed dependent, so it's not a straight conversion.

+weapon damage amount / weapon speed = equivalent DPS
2/2.6 = .75
equivalent DPS * 14 = equivalent AP
10.5 AP

With BoK and UR, 4 stats is a little over 9 AP so the difference is very minimal in terms of raw AP, but there's also benefit from the other stats (namely some crit) that makes +stats a better ring enchant.

Originally Posted by s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
Are you threat capped? Get threat reduction. If you aren't, get Agility.
#2035SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Hadera
Originally Posted by s315h1n
On the topic of enchants, how about cloak enchants? 12 Agility or 2% threat reduction? ;]
I think it depends on your aggro situation. If you're having to sit back on fights so that you won't pull aggro, go for the -2% threat. Malan said in a prior post concerning threat reducing trinkets that a trinket slot is essentially empty if you're having to 'throttle back'. I would think that the same principle applies here.
#2036SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Toots Hepcat
Here's something to ponder: is 1% haste a better glove enchant that +15 STR?

2.2 Haste Rating = 2.2 STR

15.8 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
#2037SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Here's something to ponder: is 1% haste a better glove enchant that +15 STR?

2.2 Haste Rating = 2.2 STR

15.8 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste
It is a very misleading tooltip: it adds enough rating to have been 1% at 60, so it adds 10 haste rating. It's not a percent scalar like Mongoose is.
#2038SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Abrax
Originally Posted by Malan
Itemization - Hit Rating
Current theory is holding that we may not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. A good explanation of why can be found here. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
You guys sure do put a lot of thought into this stuff, way more than I ever will. But, I have to say, I've tried running with pure STR/Crit/AGI gear over a heavy hit rating suit and I have not been impressed with the results. Berg postulates that hit rating only effects White damage, and Windfury damage to lesser degree. But, you also can't crit if you miss. As I recall, against targets 3 levels higher than the player, the base chance to miss while Dual Wielding is roughly 24.5%. And correct me if I'm wrong there, it's been a while since I had this all explained to me. given 5% chance to miss, that could potentially reduce damage dealt that was derived from UR and Flurry procs, in addition to missed Windfury procs and crits. Granted, you would have more chance to crit, and do more damage per hit, but unless you can get more crit % increase than you lose in hit % increase, I dont think it would be worth the change.
#2039SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3
Edited onundefined
Sebudai
Well, if you'd like months of actual results instead of theorycraft you're welcome to review my guilds WWS parses. I have possibly the lowest total hit rating of any of the endgame shaman. Also, I don't think anyone is saying to ignore hit rating. You definitely want some. The higher your other stats get, the more important hit rating becomes by comparison.

Strength is the most efficient stat for us, but that doesn't mean it's the only stat we want to focus on. The stat weightings do not tell us to focus entirely on strength. I like to think of it in pie-chart terms. The stat weightings tell us that 40% of our pie should consist of strength, 35% crit rating/agility, and 25% hit rating/haste rating, if that makes sense.

Last edited by Sebudai : 08/31/07 at 6:34 PM.
#2040SourcePosted onPatch 2.1.3Rob
Originally Posted by Abrax
But, you also can't crit if you miss.
Assuming you have 9% hit from talents, adding hit rating on your gear will never, ever, EVER* cause you to gain a crit you would not have previously had. I stopped reading after this point, because the rest of your analysis was based on this idea and it's wrong.




* Assuming you are not crit-capped, which nobody is, because Glancing Blows are now only 25% of the hit table, you would have to have something like 60% critical strike chance.
#3401SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Rapid
Back on the "Entry Level" equipment sets. Around page 133, Malan you asked if there was site that could help filtering the gear? You could always try Kaliban's Loot Lists at Kaliban's Class Loot Lists.
The stat weight filters are a little coarse (unlike lootzor) and only filter by priority. That being said it was a very handy reference, and allows a new / approaching 70 to filter the gear down to questable items and 5 man instance drops.
#3402SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
So, how do I model in the +weapon skill? Can I just do a quick 5 weapon skill = 3% hit and 0.2% crit -> 1 weapon skill = 0.6% hit and 0.04% crit?

From 18 skill rating I get +4 weapon skill which turns out to be 2.4% hit and 0.16% crit.
There is a "magic" spot at 5 weapon skill.
http://elitistjerks.com/469131-post491.html
So +4weapon skill turns out to be only 1.6% hit instead of 2.4% hit. Adding one more +weapon skill on top of it is worth 1.4% hit.
#3403SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
Tons
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Int and Mp5 are nearly meaningless stats. In fact, they are entirely meaningless as long as you have enough mana to sustain a 2 minute dps cycle(including totem twisting). I totem twist, and I never run out of mana. Both stats will have even less value after patch 2.3. I don't assign either of these stats any value at all. Stamina, on the other hand, does matter. I usually value each point at 0.5 AEP.

My current AEP values for the other stats are as follows:

Crit Rating/Agility - 2.0 AEP
Hit Rating - 2.0 AEP
Haste Rating - 1.9 AEP
Armor Penetration - 0.33
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it?

Last edited by Tons : 10/07/07 at 2:50 PM.
#3404SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Nemaa
Originally Posted by Tons
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it? Just asking cause I respect your opinion alot and am trying to model my gear after yours. Just wondering if you know something I dont? Thanks in advance
At really high level of gear, especially at really good crit and ap it turns out that hit rating and haste rating gets better. Using Yo's simulator with my gear I have similar AEP results.
#3405SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2vorda
Originally Posted by Tons
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it? Just asking cause I respect your opinion alot and am trying to model my gear after yours. Just wondering if you know something I dont? Thanks in advance
I think the short answer to your question is: using Yo!'s sim you can get AEP values for your current gear.
#3406SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mox
Originally Posted by Nemaa
At really high level of gear, especially at really good crit and ap it turns out that hit rating and haste rating gets better. Using Yo's simulator with my gear I have similar AEP results.

I was alittle shocked at some of the AEP values I got, in my current gear with 1700 AP/31.77 crit/19.02 hit (inc talents - with kings) I got:

1 - AP
2.23 - Crit (????)
2.05 - Hit
2.08 - Haste
0.32 - Armor Ignore
2.17 - Agi
2.2 - Str

Which kinda screws up my loot list as everything becomes crit gems lol :P which kinda goes against the current itemisation plans!
#3407SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Nemaa
Here are some results with Yo's sim if anyone is interested in the 2.3 changes.
Currently in a 2.2 simulation I get 1358 dps, what is pretty accurate to my ingame dps. I have 2 syphons and a Swiftsteel Bludgeon with mongoose. I made 3 simulations for 10000 hours with different weapon and enchant setups:



Mox, my values are:
Crit Rating = 2.11
Agility = 2.05
Hit Rating = 2.0
Haste Rating = 2.04
Armor Penetration = 0.33

Almost the same. It doesn't mean you have to change all your str gems to crit ones. I bet if you gain +1-1.5% crit your Crit Rating AEP will get lower than the STR AEP.
#3408SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
Mox how long and how many times did you run the sim for? Yo recommends 1000 hours on the sim for AEP, but when I've done it for testing stuff I set it to 10,000 hours and leave it running for 5-10 minutes. Might give you better results that way, and always always run it more than once to make sure you get the same values consistently.

Also the idea behind the AEP values is how you should value your *next* item, not your current stuff. So don't look at this as "oh crit is worth more for me, I should redo to crit gems" because that's going to change your AEP valuation. The value you use is how you should judge incoming gear based on the gear you currently have.
#3409SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Mox
Originally Posted by Malan
Mox how long and how many times did you run the sim for? Yo recommends 1000 hours on the sim for AEP, but when I've done it for testing stuff I set it to 10,000 hours and leave it running for 5-10 minutes. Might give you better results that way, and always always run it more than once to make sure you get the same values consistently.

Also the idea behind the AEP values is how you should value your *next* item, not your current stuff. So don't look at this as "oh crit is worth more for me, I should redo to crit gems" because that's going to change your AEP valuation. The value you use is how you should judge incoming gear based on the gear you currently have.

I set it for 15,000 hours and 10,000 hours and got near identical values (afew 0.01 differences here and there).

Yeah I understand the theory that its to enable better selection of future upgrades, but under current thinking are we actually saying that at a certain point in gear progression +hit becomes a sort after stat contrary to most thoughts?
#3410SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Basically, at low levels of DPS, Hit and Haste are worth much less than STR and Crit. As players stack STR and Crit, Hit and Haste become more valuable, so at high levels of DPS they are worth as much or more than STR and Crit. We can chalk this up to a few factors:

1) Increasing crit has diminishing returns on increasing Flurry uptime
2) Additional AP becomes less as a percentage of total AP
3) Increasing AP makes extra white hits (created by hit rating) more valuable
4) Increasing AP and crit make extra white attacks (created by haste rating) more valuable

Obviously, if most shamans increased hit and haste initially (before AP and crit) we'd have a different list of factors (increasing hit makes additional AP more valuable, increasing haste makes additional AP and crit more valuable) and we would see more people obtaining sub-1.5 AEPs of Hit and Haste.

Last edited by Rob : 10/07/07 at 1:38 PM.
#3411SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2• Igniter
Originally Posted by Tons
I have a question for Sebudai or if anyone else can answer. I noticed you have the AEP value of Haste and Hit ratings a little higher than the original poster. How did you come up with the different AEP values, is that just personal preference or you have any kind of math behind it? Just asking cause I respect your opinion alot and am trying to model my gear after yours. Just wondering if you know something I dont? Thanks in advance
Sim on the first page. It lets you input all your stats (although I have noticed no Bloodlust Brooch option) and gives you your overall dps, as well as item values for your current gear setup.
#3412SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2evilution
Originally Posted by Igniter
Sim on the first page. It lets you input all your stats (although I have noticed no Bloodlust Brooch option) and gives you your overall dps, as well as item values for your current gear setup.
Give yourself an extra 46AP if your using a bloodlust brooch (20/120)*278

20 seconds of uptime every 120 seconds assuming you are using it every time the cooldown is up.
#3413SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Krish
Yo,

Your sim has come a long way, and is proving a very valuable tool indeed. Thank you.

One thing that seems to be off for some reason, possibly after the first time it is switched on, is the AEP ratings when 30% AP --> spell damage is turned on. As you would expect, AP becomes worth more than it was previously, so the other values go down. What seems to be bugged is that suddenly crit and agi have scaled down to ~1.29 while hit rating is ~1.69. One would expect both numbers to come down proportionately, not reverse in this manner. If I recalculate again, the values seem to come back to what they should be. I'm using 10,000 hours as my runtime currently. As I'm trying to add a pawn string to show post 2.3 values for gear choices, I'd really love to make sure they're accurate.
#3414SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2elanoria
Ok, im pretty naive when it comes to using theorycraft and so I figured I might put my ideas out for those with a better understanding to pick them to pieces.

I have two things that I've been wondering about with the coming of 2.3

1) Everyone seems to be discussing the pros/cons of slow WF/fast FT which is all great but im wondering why not slow WF/slow FT? With a fast OH with FT, theres losses in SS dmg as well as ur OH eating flurry procs which u might not be able to keep up as much anyway because you've sacrificied some crit for AP as it gives more spell dmg for your FT. Also, by using FT ur scaling better with haste effects so u would prolly have as many haste trinks/procs/pots as you can which again would result in more losses in flurry procs as ur OH takes them from ur MH, which now needs the haste as there is only 1 wf to worry about when it comes to the 3 sec cd.

2) Ive been thinking about the viability of an enhancement/elemental build. Something like 43/18 based upon getting convection, concussion, reverberation and elemental devastation. This appeals to me because of the increase dmg/cd reduction to shocks which will be pumping out more dps with the coming of 2.3 as it is but also because of elemental devastation which would more than make up for the loss in crit that will happen with me as I aim for more AP to increase spell dmg.

Ok, feel free to flame/praise or do watever with these thoughts, im just putting them out there for consideration and maybe ill get lucky and one of the theorycraft experts will give some attention to my ideas
#3415SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by elanoria
Ok, im pretty naive when it comes to using theorycraft and so I figured I might put my ideas out for those with a better understanding to pick them to pieces.

I have two things that I've been wondering about with the coming of 2.3

1) Everyone seems to be discussing the pros/cons of slow WF/fast FT which is all great but im wondering why not slow WF/slow FT? With a fast OH with FT, theres losses in SS dmg as well as ur OH eating flurry procs which u might not be able to keep up as much anyway because you've sacrificied some crit for AP as it gives more spell dmg for your FT. Also, by using FT ur scaling better with haste effects so u would prolly have as many haste trinks/procs/pots as you can which again would result in more losses in flurry procs as ur OH takes them from ur MH, which now needs the haste as there is only 1 wf to worry about when it comes to the 3 sec cd.

2) Ive been thinking about the viability of an enhancement/elemental build. Something like 43/18 based upon getting convection, concussion, reverberation and elemental devastation. This appeals to me because of the increase dmg/cd reduction to shocks which will be pumping out more dps with the coming of 2.3 as it is but also because of elemental devastation which would more than make up for the loss in crit that will happen with me as I aim for more AP to increase spell dmg.

Ok, feel free to flame/praise or do watever with these thoughts, im just putting them out there for consideration and maybe ill get lucky and one of the theorycraft experts will give some attention to my ideas
You and you're are your friends.

OH eating flurry procs is irrelevant because you are proccing flurry more often.

Flametongue is far better on faster weapons because the way it scales with slower weapons is far inferior to the added dps you would gain by using the fastest weapon possible. Think of it this way: FT hits for 240 every 4 seconds or 180 every 1.5 seconds with 3k ap and mental quickness(rough numbers, really not sure)

Why do people think elemental devastation is good? It's horrible. Your spell crit rate is roughly 6% making this talent a passive 1% crit at best. Mana reduction to shocks is going to make convection worthless. Is losing 25% cheaper totems, 3% hit, 3% spell hit, 10 yards on totems, and 2 deep enhancement talents worth gaining 1% crit, 5% shock damage, and an extra shock once per minute? This build has been stomped on over and over, no clue why it keeps resurfacing.

Last edited by rava : 10/08/07 at 3:10 AM.
#3416SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2sarf
Clarification to elanoria:
According to what people say, FT gets 10% of your spelldamage added (not modified by speed) + base FT damage (modified by speed).

Therefore, at some itemization point, fast weapons will do more damage from FT scaling than a slow weapon will get from FT base damage.

EDIT:
Added more clarification.
#3417SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Gnus
Wandering, if anyone compare buffed [Rod of the Sun King] vs [Netherbane] as OH, with Dragonstrike in MH?
#3418SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
Flametongue Weapon is not viable. Unless they change the spell in a major way in the next patch -- and so far there is no reason to assume they will -- it still won't be viable. I'm not sure if some of you understand just how bad FT is right now. It's really bad. I don't want it to be bad, but it is. Sorry!

Also, Enhancement/Restoration is superior to Enhancement/Elemental. There are many reasons for this -- most of which are completely obvious if you actually spent some time thinking about it -- and they've all been posted in this thread already. Shocks account for roughly 10% of my total dps in a raid. I want to drop 15 talent points into improving them why? Convection is a meaningless talent for our spec now, let alone after the patch when our shocks will basically cost 60% less mana. Elemental Devastation is a horrible talent. It's not even in the same realm of any of the Restoration talents. Do you guys put any thought into these questions before you ask them?

Stop ignoring the posts in this thread. Stop trying to re-invent the wheel. I know there are a bunch of people that are new to this class/spec and it's fun to explore the different options, but many of us went through this process months ago. I'm not saying you shouldn't have an open mind or try to think outside of the box, but don't be ignorant. Don't be stupid. Think about your questions before you ask them. If you use your brain you are capable of answering a lot of these questions all by yourself. Many months ago I looked at Elemental Devastation and said to myself "I wonder if that's any good..." I then spent about 30 seconds doing basic math based off of my spell crit % and came up with the following answer : "Nope."

Malan did not pull the original post of this thread directly out of his ass. These are things that we have discovered through a lot of theorycrafting and a lot of experience. It is absolutely retarded to have an endless stream of people coming here to question the most basic truths of our class for the umpteenth time. The answers to your questions have already been posted in this thread, and you're choosing to ignore them.

Stop being lazy.

Last edited by Sebudai : 10/08/07 at 5:03 AM.
#3419SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Gnus
Wandering, if anyone compare buffed [Rod of the Sun King] vs [Netherbane] as OH, with Dragonstrike in MH?
Less agi, less stam (you can just neglect that, imo), but 4 more dps and more ap. What do you think?
#3420SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Gnus
Originally Posted by Illundai
Less agi, less stam (you can just neglect that, imo), but 4 more dps and more ap. What do you think?
+12 ap, +4 dps (roughly 56 ap) vs 1.1 crit (after BoK).
i.e. 68 ap vs 24 crit rate.
Match MH speed, so doesn't consume flurry procs.

Rod is better.
#3421SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Quaunaut
Just wanted to say thanks to a lot of you guys who are constantly working hard to make Shaman damage more apparent, and in general, better. I have tons of fun returning to this thread every night and poring over everything you've discussed. Because of it, my damage is incomprehensible to a few different guilds on the server, as though I'm only 68(and have been reading this thread since a month and a half before I started this Shaman) and yet I'm only 3-5% behind their Mag/SSC level Rogues in DPS(with them getting WF!) in 5 mans, and my gear isn't even that great for my level.

I'm convinced its this high because of my insistence on a good offhand weapon, focus on Stormstriking outside of the WF Cooldown, and my swapping between Flameshock and Earthshock. My mana conservation is pretty golden(I can go half an instance without water purely from out-of-combat mana regen and SR), and though I have a bit of an aggro issue, usually this is only early in a fight when I can spend half a second on another mob just to let the tank get aggro on the main mob.

In short: Thanks for the help. I cannot wait to get my Drakefist Hammer, Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, D3 Helm, Astral Winds totem, Hourglass and Bloodlust Brooch just to really show people that a Shaman is not a weak DPSer. I'm having a kick being one of the best Shaman on my faction/server, even not at 70, and I'm not even in my best moments. <3
#3422SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Pitbuller
"+4 dps (roughly 56 ap)"

Where did u rip number 56.(I know you did count 4*14 but its wrong)
AP give dps to ur main and off hand. 56ap would give 4dps to MH and 2dps to oh.
You have count how much ap is worth of 4dps(3.7 if i counted right)
Right number would be 35ap -> 2.5dps to MH and 1.25dps to OH is total 3.75dps.
[Rod of the Sun King] is still better but its not accurate and simple count weapon dps as AEP.
Different speeds and how your mh/oh gets WFs propably mess these calc too much.
#3423SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2◊ Malan
According to this thread [RAID] Boss armor values and this post in particular, http://elitistjerks.com/498690-post35.html it looks like most of the end game bosses have 6200 armor and then the high value ones are 7700 armor. Most raids probably aren't using CoR except in a few cases, so we could see those reduced to 2990 and 4490 respectively.

What I found nice was this bit, for a 6200 armor mob after sunders/faerie fire/CoR-
Armor penetration (175): 15.96% - additional dmg increase for it: 1.39%
Armor penetration (350): 14.77% - additional dmg increase for it: 2.83%
Armor penetration (800): 11.56% - additional dmg increase for it: 6.7%
#3424SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Thebeat
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Flametongue Weapon is not viable. Unless they change the spell in a major way in the next patch -- and so far there is no reason to assume they will -- it still won't be viable. I'm not sure if some of you understand just how bad FT is right now. It's really bad. I don't want it to be bad, but it is. Sorry!
I wonder if Blizzard is ever going to change flametongue or frostbrand considering that no one uses them. Maybe something like flamefury and frostfury which would work like windfury but your extra attacks would be converted to either frost or fire damage. Rockbiter would still be a dud though.
#3425SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2• Nite_Moogle
Honestly they took a step in the right direction this patch with the AP-> Dmg conversion. The major issue is that FT doesn't scale worth a crap. There are two things that badly limit the usefulness of FT/FB: the horrid 16% spell miss rate on bosses and the fact that they scale linearly while Windfury's damage scales exponentially. Improving the base DPS of the spell to be dependent on your weapon's actual DPS and raising the coefficient on FT to 15% per 1.0 weapon speed (similar to how Seal of Righteousness scales) would probably make it at least worth considering. Another possibility is to have Elemental Weapons provide a small amount of spell hit in addition to or instead of improving the base DPS. It probably wouldn't hurt to insert a shock-only spell hit talent at the top of the elemental tree to promote synergy either.

It's pretty unlikely things will change at this point, though. Windfury is good enough that any attempts to make another ability roughly equal to it is asking for trouble.
#3426SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Nite_Moogle
Honestly they took a step in the right direction this patch with the AP-> Dmg conversion. The major issue is that FT doesn't scale worth a crap. There are two things that badly limit the usefulness of FT/FB: the horrid 16% spell miss rate on bosses and the fact that they scale linearly while Windfury's damage scales exponentially. Improving the base DPS of the spell to be dependent on your weapon's actual DPS and raising the coefficient on FT to 15% per 1.0 weapon speed (similar to how Seal of Righteousness scales) would probably make it at least worth considering. Another possibility is to have Elemental Weapons provide a small amount of spell hit in addition to or instead of improving the base DPS. It probably wouldn't hurt to insert a shock-only spell hit talent at the top of the elemental tree to promote synergy either.

It's pretty unlikely things will change at this point, though. Windfury is good enough that any attempts to make another ability roughly equal to it is asking for trouble.
#3427SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Tornhoof
I wonder why you actually talk about FT that much, it is as previously shown just a fix to allow more weapon choices. If you have two slow weapons you won't need to change at all, if you don't have a slow offhand, just a slow mainhand it might be a worthwhile alternative, which can reach dual WF damage output.

Afaik ft on the offhand is still buggy and using the mainhand speed dps, dunno if this was fixed yet, actually this bug is the only reason a slow/fast wf/ft combo does top slow/slow wf/wf damage theoretically for some cases.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#3428SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
I don't think Lootzor is ever going to be upgraded to include the missing stat weights for haste/armor, and it seems to be missing a lot of valid items that don't have those stats anyways. I went over to thottbot today and got wildly different item sets. Lootzor is looking like a dead site right now.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3429SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Krish
Yo,

Your sim has come a long way, and is proving a very valuable tool indeed. Thank you.

One thing that seems to be off for some reason, possibly after the first time it is switched on, is the AEP ratings when 30% AP --> spell damage is turned on. As you would expect, AP becomes worth more than it was previously, so the other values go down. What seems to be bugged is that suddenly crit and agi have scaled down to ~1.29 while hit rating is ~1.69. One would expect both numbers to come down proportionately, not reverse in this manner. If I recalculate again, the values seem to come back to what they should be. I'm using 10,000 hours as my runtime currently. As I'm trying to add a pawn string to show post 2.3 values for gear choices, I'd really love to make sure they're accurate.
What were your input stats and what was your choice of weapon imbues (WF/FT or WF/WF)?

__________________
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo
#3430SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Wrei
A couple of questions that I didn't see answered (or it seems uncertain if the op has been adjusted to reflect this in the case of the haste question.)

1. Has anyone done weights for the tier 4, 5, 6 set bonuses? To, for example, compare the benefits of going from cyclone shoulders to cataclysm shoulders assuming you're giving up a set bonus from doing so.

2. Post haste normalization/nerf, is the dragonstrike still the best crafting option for non-orc shamans?
#3431SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Bragor
Here's an interesting question that been asked by a guildie... They fixed the effect of mobs going into negative resistance but how the effect of Ignore armor.. Does it allow mobs to go into negative armor ?

If the game mechanics allows it then armor penetration will be seriously over powered on zero armor targets.

__________________


You never know, If you never try.
#3432SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Aeolian
1. Run the numbers yourself it isn't hard.

2. As far as I know, yes.
#3433SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Bragor
Here's an interesting question that been asked by a guildie... They fixed the effect of mobs going into negative resistance but how the effect of Ignore armor.. Does it allow mobs to go into negative armor ?

If the game mechanics allows it then armor penetration will be seriously over powered on zero armor targets.
There is no such thing as negative AC, and most Boss NPCs have way too much AC to ever reach this point.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/08/07 at 5:43 PM.
#3434SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Illundai
Mhm, Reliquary of Souls phase 1 has no armor. I don't have any Armor Penetration so I can't test it, however.
#3435SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2david0925
In terms of wording, you can't ignore more armor than the mob already has, so I doubt you can get a mob down to sub-zero armor for yourself with Ignore armor attributes.

At least that's my guess.
#3436SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Shamanatrix
Yo!'s sim.

Anyone know whether or not Yo!s simulator assumes you have either Nature's Guidance or Dual Wield Specialization? Or do we need to manually add the 9% hit from these talents to what the paper doll reports from item +hit?

Thanks
#3437SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2Tornhoof
Afaik they removed negative armor in the same patch with the negative resistances and that was a long long time ago.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#3438SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Rob
To paraphrase, that's why it's "ignore X of the target's armor" instead of "reduces target's armor by X".
#3439SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ fangar
You need to manually add the hit, it says it in the instructions.

__________________
For the love of god please read the Original Post!
#3440SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Shamanatrix
Anyone know whether or not Yo!s simulator assumes you have either Nature's Guidance or Dual Wield Specialization? Or do we need to manually add the 9% hit from these talents to what the paper doll reports from item +hit?

Thanks
Examine your character sheet. Take the hit from that, add the % to any talents that grant % hit, put that into the sim.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3441SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamanatrix
Originally Posted by Malan
Examine your character sheet. Take the hit from that, add the % to any talents that grant % hit, put that into the sim.
Thanks much.
#3442SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Winfurae
A question about group setup.

Last night on Leo we had lots of melee:

- 1 Enhancement shaman (me obviously)
- 2 sword rogues
- 2 fury warriors
- 2 feral druids

The main melee group consisted of me, 2 rogues and 2 fury warriors. We actually first had a feral druid, but when the raid leader asked me what totem I was going to use (WF obviously), he said the feral doesn't gain anything from that and moved him out for a fury warrior.

I'm thinking switching 1 rogue or even fury warrior (but rogue more likely) out, would have buffed the overall raid dps by so much more. Ofcourse, this is only speculation, as I don't have any rough numbers. I wonder if anyone does have the theory behind group setups and how much potentional dps the raid has lost not having a feral in the group?
#3443SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jerem
Twisting WF and GoA reduces the whole "druids are wasting a WF slot" feeling.

In your setup however, I'd say your melee group is ideal with 2 rogues and 2 warriors.
Let the hunters have the druid
#3444SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
I'd put one druid in the hunter group and probably put the other one in the MT's group.
#3445SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
talking about twisting i'd be intested to hear how often do you guys do it?

I haven't done a real raid yet with my enhancement shaman, and i was curious about that.

Naturally i understand the mechanism, i did a bit of IF testing and i'm obviously still lacking alot of getting used to it, but do you guys do that constantly for pretty much all the fights? (asides the fights in which you have to move constantly like supremus ofc).

Is it really mana sustainable? And how do you handle the cooldown issues, can you manage to stick your shocks, do you have some cycle routine?

I was thinking on the paper on WF/GoA/SS/EShock/FlameShock <refresh>, is that correct?

Thank for your answers, and sorry if i missed an early post, but i don't remember saying anything on that specific twisting matter.
#3446SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Jerem
Check Disquette's signature.
His DiscoDice addon graphically answers the "cycle routine" part of your question. Since shocks and WF totem/SS have different cooldowns, it is pretty much a "dynamic cycle" (but the main idea remains "WF/GoA/SS/EShock/FlameShock <refresh>" - you just have three shocks for two totem-drops / SS).

As far as mana is concerned, it depends on the fight, the buffs available, and if the mob/boss is JoW-ed or not.
Personnally, I let go the shocks first if I can't sustain the whole shocks+totem twisting+SS thing.

Last edited by Jerem : 10/09/07 at 10:17 AM.
#3447SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3448SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Karrnage
Hey Guys, sorry for the stupid question... But when i click the link to Yo's damage simulator all i get is the instructions at the bottom and a big box with a broken graphic symbol in it at the top of the screen. Does anyone know why it isnt working for me? Do i have to download something to get it to work?
#3449SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
You need to have the Java Runtime Environment installed. Go here - Download Free Java Software

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3450SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Karrnage
Oh, Cheers mate =D
#3451SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
Originally Posted by Yo!
What were your input stats and what was your choice of weapon imbues (WF/FT or WF/WF)?


Here are my values: 1724AP, 6.21% haste, 16.93 Hit %, 27.76% CR, 175 Armor Penetration (using 4000 armor as base value, which is probably still higher than the average in BT/Hyjal).

MH: 2.6 speed 100.2 DPS, 5 skill (I'm an orc)
OH: 2.6 speed 97.5 DPS, 5 skill

Buffs: all but GoA, Trueshot, and the bottom 3, T5 4-piece bonus = on, CoE, Scorch, Misery.

Using WF/WF, Totem of the Astral Winds, Ashtongue Talisman.

I also got one AEP value for Haste of 1.0, which is very low compared to the ~2 I usually get.

One other question that I haven't found a good answer for is what I should be inputting for magical resistances. 365 seems very high to me, so I had been trying it with zero as well, which also seems wrong. Does anyone have the math behind what these values should be for accurate results?
#3452SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I thought that other than Supremus no boss in TBC has actual magic resistances other than the base chance due to level differences? Also I've been using 2990 now my boss armor value in the sim.
#3453SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
What number do I need to input for resistances to account for the level-difference based resists?
#3454SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
You shouldn't need any, that should be part of the inherent calculation in spell damage.
- Spell resist rate against bosses is 17%; only 16% of this can be overcome with spell hit [202 spell hit rating].
Boss level mobs have a 5% partial resistance to non-binary spells
#3455SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Opis
I apologize if this has been addressed in the 136 previous pages, but what kind of base model are you assigning these stat weights?

From what I understand, hit and crit rating will scale, accounting for more and more DPS as your AP increases. Or, is the scaling so minimal, as to keep these values true regardless of current itemization?
#3456SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
The problem (particularly with hit) is the Windfury cooldown creates a lot of problems in modeling things accurately. With sub-2000 AP, introducing more hits is a good deal less productive than raising crit rate or AP due to proc-ineligible swings and flurry uptime. As you gain more and more AP and crit and especially haste, your white damage starts to overtake the WF proc damage and normal hits become more valuable. The weights in the first post aren't hard and fast for all levels of gear, but they are good guidelines for the majority of shamans and if you gear in those ratios you'll have very positive results no matter what level of the game you're at.
#3457SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
The stat weights are a rough, generalized approximation based off a reasonable SSC/TK geared shaman. AEP values can change pretty wildly at very high or very low ends of gear however, so you are encouraged to use Yo's sim to help figure out your own ratings. The general form however provides a meaningful point of comparison between shaman when making general comparisons between items.

Is that what you were asking about? I see that Moogle answered something in a totally different direction from what I thought you meant.
#3458SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ztheg
itemization question

Here is an itemization question i have been struggling with.
I have two sets of gloves.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Grips of Deftness

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Gloves of Quickening (Assume max blue gems)

I do not know which one to use for a pve max dps fully buffed raid environment.
I am currently dual wielding Dragonmaw and Merc Glad's Mainhand.
Is the increased mace skill on the first gloves enough to make it my armor of choice?

Thanks in advance
#3459SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Grips of Deftness will come out ahead on AEP values once you factor in the Hit % from the weapon skill. Without even considering the weapon skill the Deftness are 112 AEP vs 120 for the Quickening, so you can be sure they'll come out on top, especially if your pvp weapon is the Mace/fist and not the axe.
#3460SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
You need 5 skill to hit the magic +3% hit -- those gloves aren't enough for that on their own. The 3.8 weapon skill is only worth 18.9 hit rating, so do your AEP from there.
#3461SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
1.2% Hit = 1.2 * 15.76 = 18.912 ---> 18.912 * 1.4 = 26.4768. Add that to the value above and the Deftness win.

Sort of related to this... Is it possible that someone could write a firefox plugin or something that would produce AEP values in tooltips from wowhead or thottbot?

Last edited by Malan : 10/09/07 at 1:49 PM.
#3462SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
Malan you said something a few posts back about not using max rank WF totem.
I've been using Max rank WF with no issue in my twisting at all. I don't generally shock every cooldown, but do so a decent amount. SR tends to keep the party going and I don't have JOW on most fights.
#3463SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Hmm. I tried it last week with the Enhancer addon and using max ranks of WF/GoA and on an SSC trash pull with no shocks my mana bar was empty way before all the mobs were dead.
#3464SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
Hmm. I tried it last week with the Enhancer addon and using max ranks of WF/GoA and on an SSC trash pull with no shocks my mana bar was empty way before all the mobs were dead.
Totemic Focus helps a ton. I don't think I'd even consider doing a twisting rotation without it.
#3465SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Malan
Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it.
I do wish people would stop saying this. For every fight in the game which I've been a part of (through Archimonde and Supremus), I twist max rank GOA and max rank Windfury Totem with an earth shock thrown in just before my cooldowns are up for good measure. Shamanistic Rage and (occasionally if I really need it; for example, get death and decay on the melee in the middle of shamanistic rage) a mana potion is more than enough to sustain one shock per 10 seconds + twisting with max ranks. The only fight I -don't- twist or use shocks is Kaz'rogal, and that's because I frequently don't resist more than 1 or 2 Marks, even wearing some shadow resist.

Edit to add: I also frequently don't get BoW and maybe 1% of the time get JoW, so those don't quite account for it either. Also, yeah, Totemic Focus is probably the only way this can work, but even without it I imagine you'd be fine if you didn't shock at all. That Tranquil Air or GoA on some fights is going to be better for the raid's damage than a single shock.
#3466SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
"Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it."



I have always used max rank totems with twisting wf/goa or wf/ta depending on which of our tanks are there and use my earth shock/ flame shock macro the whole time and have no mana issues at all. The only fight I cant really twist on so far is Kaz'ragol for obvious reasons. We also run a Ret pally so bow/jow is always up. I don't twist for trash but well it's trash who cares.
#3467SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
It gets said because that's what the original argument against it was - that people were using Rank 1 WF Totem just for the extra attack and ignoring the additional AP bonuses on higher ranks.
#3468SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
I was using Rank2 and had light shocking usage for most of last night. I ran dry pretty quick that way on trash packs. Bosses weren't that bad though, since SR would do better for me on them (buffs were always out) and I could mana pot without feeling like I was wasting them.

It also might have helped if I were in the melee group instead of a tank group. On the other hand, that's why they had a spot for me last night. Warrior Tank and Druid Tank, I was there to twist for them.
#3469SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
It gets said because that's what the original argument against it was - that people were using Rank 1 WF Totem just for the extra attack and ignoring the additional AP bonuses on higher ranks.
The fact remains that it is clearly untrue and it's just spreading disinformation to repeat it. With proper talents, twisting max rank GoA/WF is clearly sustainable even without JoW. I always used shocks based on what my current mana supply allowed and used mana pots every so often. Never have I felt that I was running dry with just totem twisting.
#3470SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
Wow tone down the aggression Aett.

Disinformation is a little harsh. Just a difference of opinion and experiences.
I usually ran with 3 in totemic focus and switched to 5 and it helps a lot and makes max ranks Twisting possible (without JOW/BOW). I think YMMV here based on mana pool and Ap for Shamanistic Rage, but it seems to work for most. It's all about finding a twist pattern you are comfortable with, which trash packs it works when to just use WF. Just takes a little attention to detail and makes shamans more interesting than the 3 button hits every 12 seconds that we are now, IMO.
#3471SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
It may be untrue and 'disinformation', but this is seriously the first time I've heard that people are not using low ranks of WF Totem, and you guys know that I keep up with every post in this thread. If its been spread, its been spread because that's what people were doing the totem twisting posted here originally.
#3472SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Can someone please let me know where I did my math wrong? I was trying to model the twisting in terms of mana, and I can't see how it would be sustainable with max rank totems and shocking every time they're up, but maybe I'm calculating something wrong or forgetting some key talents/skills.

Or maybe I'm just plain bad at math. From what I can tell, a shaman with Aett's stats will be spending 17.4k mana every 2 minutes. Given that this would be more than 2 times his mana pool, I don't see how even shamanistic rage would be able to keep this up. Though, perhaps if you got 2 full mana pools worth from shamanistic rage, and also potted for another 2k, you could skate by if you were willing to accept that you would be bone dry for part of it.

Comments? See screenshot attached.
Attached Images
twist_mana.jpg (67.7 KB, 73 views)
#3473SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
I also, excitedly, tried totem twisting a long time back and said it was not viable due to GCD issues, and that's been proven false as well. It comes down to personal experience. Depending on available paladins, I will also run dry pretty quickly. If JoW isn't up on the mob (sweeping generalizations aside about how it should "always" be up) I can't make it work, personally. I think this may change come 2.3, but until then I think twisting is a personal experience thing. I don't twist, still, because I lean more to the back-up healing play style, than full DPS. Out of mana means out of options.

If Malan seems like he speaks the gospel in his tone, it's because that's usually the case. The petty bickering should be left on the bliz forums.
#3474SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Disquette
Can someone please let me know where I did my math wrong? I was trying to model the twisting in terms of mana, and I can't see how it would be sustainable with max rank totems and shocking every time they're up, but maybe I'm calculating something wrong or forgetting some key talents/skills.

Or maybe I'm just plain bad at math. From what I can tell, a shaman with Aett's stats will be spending 17.4k mana every 2 minutes. Given that this would be more than 2 times his mana pool, I don't see how even shamanistic rage would be able to keep this up. Though, perhaps if you got 2 full mana pools worth from shamanistic rage, and also potted for another 2k, you could skate by if you were willing to accept that you would be bone dry for part of it.

Comments? See screenshot attached.
You can't shock every time it's up with max rank totems. I think I get 15 shocks off on a 3 minute fight, which are reduced to earth now because of arcane mages and debuff limits :\.
#3475SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
I think your math looks right. I don't think most people religiously shock as part of a max rank totem twisting rotation. I used to have a Earth Shock written into the macro to occur once every 10 seconds, but took that out as the burn rate was too much without JOW.

I know I throw in a shock here and there, but I sacrifice that DPS to enhance my party (my DPS is partly offset by the increase in crit I get while GOA is down). Been meaning to model what the difference is factoring GOA buffs, but been way too lazy.

Twisting to me is about helping the party that much more given our role. So downranking just wouldn't feel appropriate to me at least.
#3476SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shamrokk
"Just make sure you don't use max rank Windfury Totem or there's no way to sustain it."



I have always used max rank totems with twisting wf/goa or wf/ta depending on which of our tanks are there and use my earth shock/ flame shock macro the whole time and have no mana issues at all.
I'm curious how this all works out. Can you put up some wws parses please? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I want to figure out how I can do the same.

Thanks much.
#3477SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
#3478SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Xoya
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
^, 221 with mental quickness for SS. 234? without.
#3479SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Xoya
I don't think your value for Stormstrike mana cost is correct. Is 8% of our base mana really 560 mana? I know I'm always able to stormstrike before I am able to drop another totem, if I've gone dry to that point.
You are absolutely correct. I'm not used to considering +int on gear, which I should have. He has +156 int, which is 3700 mana. Stormstrike should only cost (7000 - 3700) * 0.08 = 264! That's 248 mana after Mental Quickness.

That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec.

Thanks much for the error catch.
#3480SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by fangar
Twisting to me is about helping the party that much more given our role. So downranking just wouldn't feel appropriate to me at least.
In argument for downranking WF Totem: The benefit gained from the extra hit is far greater than the additional attack power on that extra hit. If the downranking lets you sustain the twisting longer, or get more shocks in, I think that the downranked totem would come out on top. I don't have the math to back that up, but the AP bonus gained remains constant, and as gear scales, the important thing becomes the extra hit.
#3481SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
I swear my stormstrike is in the 200s for mana consumption.

That drops your two minute values to 14k-ish mana spent.

On trash, I spend a lot of time running, chasing ghouls, chasing dogs, standing in damn ice from shoulder-winking orcs as they saunter off, so that saves some mana.

For bosses (kaz'rogal not included, and i've not faced anyone past teron/gurtogg yet), I find that due to random heals, silences, aoe and so on, that I rarely get to fully utilize stormstrike and earth shock. I never get to cast flame shock on a boss.

So while I agree that your cycle sounds incredibly harsh for two minutes. It's not really something I get to experience in full force for 2 minutes at a time. There is always some time spent running for me at least.
On Teron and Akama, I do have to chug supermana potions as soon as cooldown is up, since I do in fact just stand in place for the most part. On most other bosses, I drink supermana every so often. In a normal night of 4.5 hours raiding, I drink between 4 and 10.

That said, I'm one of those drop max WF, GoA, SS.... randomly throw in an ES. And I don't have mana problems with my lackluster gear.

Once 2.3 hits and I start forcing ES full time, maybe i'll remember your clever trick of less than max WF totem. I look forward to being mana limited.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/09/07 at 4:15 PM.
#3482SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Unaz
I've been gradually starting to twist more on certain fights where there's not a lot of movement, but typically I will do it until I am about 30% mana, and then will stop twisting and jsut keep up WF. And only ss/shocking from there until I have my mana back.

Of course, if I really need to start cranking it out, I could start chugging mana pots like other caster classes. I think most enhancement shamans now are sliding in to the comfortable zone of not having to use super pots much at all, or only in emergencies (after a res/mana drain). I know I can usually get by with just the cheap combat pots for the most part, although I have supers as well jsut in case.


Also, max rank talented windfury totem is 457 (502 with UR?) more AP then untalented rank 1 Windfury totem. Which isn't exactly a difference to ignore over the duration of a fight.

Last edited by Unaz : 10/09/07 at 4:17 PM.
#3483SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Disquette
You are absolutely correct. I'm not used to considering +int on gear, which I should have. He has +156 int, which is 3700 mana. Stormstrike should only cost (7000 - 3700) * 0.08 = 264! That's 248 mana after Mental Quickness.

That takes the SS mana / 2min to 2980 mana, and the overall mana per 2 min to 8235 before using any shocks, 14073 using one every 10 sec.

Thanks much for the error catch.
I looked into it a bit more and the values are lower. You subtract the base int as well from your unbuffed int(took off all of my gear with int to find #), so with 4529 mana and 109 paper doll int it looks like:

4529-(109*15)=2894, 2894*.08=231.52 for SS mana cost, 231.52/1.06=218.4 for SS mana cost with Mental Quickness. These values are like 2 off of the total which I guess has to do with exact #s somewhere, but going off of listed SS cost and backwards math that's about as close as I can get to the 221 it costs me to SS.
#3484SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Hey, thanks a bunch rava. I don't usually do much with spell casting and mana. Obviously it shows :-\ I appreciate the explanation.
#3485SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Originally Posted by Disquette
I'm curious how this all works out. Can you put up some wws parses please? It's not that I don't believe you, it's that I want to figure out how I can do the same.

Thanks much.
here are a couple wws on Anetheron both of these are with out our ret pally in raid so JoW wasn't up I think a lot of the mana stuff depends on your buffed ap with UR up. I always save my trinket for when i pop sr as most do I am sure. I am usually around 3.2-3.4k ap when SR is up. On the second parse I actually used flame shock more then earth shock, I think I was on the wrong bar and wasnt useing my shock macro. I also dont use the one button for twisting ss and shocks since depending on threat i may switch from twisting wf/goa to wf/ta mid fight so i have a seperate macro for each of those and then use /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock for shocks and don't have ss macro'd to anything.

Anetheron
Loading...
Shamshokk - WWS

High Warlord Naj'entus
Shamshokk - WWS
#3486SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Here is a wws for Gorefiend kill after posting the previous ones there are some down times in those due to being slept on Anetheron and not needing to drop totems or shock during Naj shield. Gorefiend and Akama are the only 2 fights I can think of atm that we have completed (Hyjal cleared working on council) that you can stand there and dps 100% of the time as long as you dont get the debuff on gorefiend and well akama is less then a min if you have a mana issue there you need to reroll. All the other fights seem to have downtime in them or you are in resist gear


Shamshokk - WWS
#3487SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Yeah that WWS parse of Gorefiend is a real good example of just how much JoW shines. It seems that on most fights where we need it our paladins remember to keep JoL up but never JoW.
#3488SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I had an encounter related question here, how do other Shamans experience Kaz'Rogal? I hate him with a passion and I just don't seem to be able to find a way to do better DPS on him. One time I'll go OOM, the other time I'll be spammed with Cripples.

Do others use full Shadow Res on him or? Does it help to resist Cripple? And does Living Action Potion maybe remove Cripple?

I've tried both approaches and I really am not too sure what the best one is. As far as Marks go, on the first one I use a mana pot, second one I get I use SR... And hopefully by the time I'll need it my SMP cd will be gone, shortly followed by a SR. That' doesnt always happen, though :p. Sometimes I just have to back away and stand there exploding, which obviously doesn't help my DPS...

Any tips or experiences?

Some parses:

Khaelyn - WWS
I went OOM on this one, didn't resist a lot of Marks.. That was with ~200 SR.

Khaelyn - WWS
Didn't go OOM, wore almost full SR. Resisted all but one Mark.

I just feel that I can do more DPS on a fight like that, that's why I'm trying to find out some tricks perhaps.
#3489SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.

I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead.

I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play.
#3490SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
I stopped using any SR on that fight once our paladins started using JoW. Make sure you refresh Water Shield, because he activates it quite often. Your fate is sort of in the hands of the rest of the raid on this encounter. The best way to not run out of mana is to kill him really fast. =P
#3491SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.

The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P.

Last edited by Illundai : 10/09/07 at 5:58 PM.
#3492SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Encouraging your feral druids to give you their innervates helps on that fight, too, if you're getting unlucky with marks!
#3493SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah I seem to recall Stigmata getting 2 innervates on a fight and not knowing that he had.

Illundai you don't keep water shield up all the time anyways? It triggers constantly, almost every AoE effect (even ones that don't do damage) proc it.
#3494SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I dont use any shadow res, I have cow range to avoid war stomps, and i rarely get crippled.

I usually shock sparingly for the first minute or so then once i pop SR spam shocks and totem twist until its dead.

I have never blown up on this fight, and only once when I wasnt paying attention did I even get close to being low enough for the next mark to have a negative impact on my play.
I use only my BT neck but my experience is identical otherwise. I usually don't bother twisting, but I do kick up whatever dps cycle is appropriate if I'm safe on mana. Going to try it without any SR at all this week.

Most recent parse using only BT neck for SR. Shabadu - WWS
#3495SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Illundai
Do you have any WWS from your kills ? Cause I don't think we take extraordinarily long to kill it, but I still go OOM :P.

The water shield tip was nice btw, can't believe I didn't think of that... And I'm guessing it will only get better next patch :P.
WWS
WWS
WWS

I think these are the only ones I have when I'm not wearing SR. I used to use SR, but I slowly started taking more and more pieces off each week until I eventually wasn't wearing any.

When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing?
#3496SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.

And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/
#3497SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shamrokk
here are a couple wws on Anetheron both of these are with out our ret pally in raid so JoW wasn't up I think a lot of the mana stuff depends on your buffed ap with UR up. I always save my trinket for when i pop sr as most do I am sure. I am usually around 3.2-3.4k ap when SR is up. On the second parse I actually used flame shock more then earth shock, I think I was on the wrong bar and wasnt useing my shock macro. I also dont use the one button for twisting ss and shocks since depending on threat i may switch from twisting wf/goa to wf/ta mid fight so i have a seperate macro for each of those and then use /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock for shocks and don't have ss macro'd to anything.

Anetheron
Loading...
Shamshokk - WWS

High Warlord Naj'entus
Shamshokk - WWS
Thanks so much for the posts, as they help me figure out what's different between my playing and other people's.

First off, I was in the tank group, so no battleshout for me. That of course affects my SR returns.

The other thing is the twisting uptime. What I mean is - for every 10 seconds of combat, in an ideal situation, there should be one WF and one GoA totem. Here's a parse from last night of me on Morogrim:

Anga - WWS
(and yes, if you look at the other stuff, we had an abysmal time with vashj for some reason last night, pls ignore :p I'm using the anonymous parse to protect the innocent ).

The fight lasted 6min and 58 seconds = 418 seconds, so that would require 42 totem twists. You can see from the parse I had 100% uptime with 43 twists.

I'll thank my shamelessly plugged addon for making this possible I also had 3 fire nova totems in addition to a few flame shocks and the usual fire elemental and heroism mana soaks.

In the parses listed, you had:

Shamshokk - WWS
19 twists out of 262 seconds = 73% uptime

Shamshokk - WWS
22 twists out of 272 seconds = 81% uptime

Shamshokk - WWS
13 twists out of 260 seconds = 50% uptime

I'm not saying this is necessarily bad (I've never even done those fights, so I don't know what's appropriate), just that one of the reasons some people might not experience the same mana starvation I was having. You spent a higher % of your mana on more shocking (again, not saying it's wrong, just pointing out a difference), whereas I spent mine on twisting, and qq'ing about not having battle shout!

----------------------

Edit, for fun:
Anga - WWS
That's all the trash packs for the night.
255 twists out of 2580 seconds = 98.8% uptime.
I'm a twisting fiend. But, if I want to go on raids, I have to service the tank group, and with a druid and warrior tank, there's really no alternative but to twist to keep them both happy.

Last edited by Disquette : 10/09/07 at 7:40 PM.
#3498SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamrokk
Yea I looked back to try to find a tidewalker fight been a while since we were in SSC the only one I could find isone from before i started twisting but you can see the power of having our ret pally in raid and being in the melee group in the amount of mana i get throughout an 8 min fight to allow me to twist and shock with

Shamshokk - WWS
#3499SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Illundai
For reasons I'm not aware of, we don't bother with the Taurens. Bit silly I guess, but I doubt we'll be changing strategies at this point.

And I do try to keep up Water Shield, but often I don't really have it 100% up... More like 50% of the time. I only recently switched to Enhancement so I'm still getting used to it =/
I was pretty bad about it too, had a friend make a script for me that I use with a water shield macro:

/cast water shield
/run local f = CreateFrame"Frame" f:RegisterEvent"CHAT_MSG_SPELL_AURA_GONE_SELF" f:SetScript("OnEvent", function(_,_,m) if m:match("Water Shield") then UIErrorsFrame:AddMessage("RECAST WATERSHIELD") end end)

It displays in the mid top of the screen and has been quite some help with all of the garbage I have to pay attention to in a raid.
#3500SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
Originally Posted by Sebudai
When you guys engage him are you dragging him all over the place to get all the NPC's involved before you start actually DPS'ing?
In particular, our guild has the tank standing in the middle who then gets MD'd to. Over the next one to two minutes he drags Kaz'rogal up to the taurens warriors, then across to Thrall. I'd say that between warstomps and cripples, melee lose a fair amount of damage during this time, but maybe this is made up for by getting the tauren warriors and Thrall involved.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/09/07 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Grammar
#3501SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Malan
I just used DIsquette's mod to twist on VR and I have no idea how you guys do this on a mobile fight.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3502SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
It does take some practice. In particular, knowing when to just keep windfury down instead of twist and staying with your melee (which you should be doing anyway!) helps a lot.
#3503SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
I just used DIsquette's mod to twist on VR and I have no idea how you guys do this on a mobile fight.
Mobile fights are the one's I value it most on since I don't have to worry about the totems being where they should be. If I'm constantly dropping them they'll always be there.
#3504SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aeolian
I did it for the first time tonight, worked out well, started getting the hang of it at least. I only got to test it out on Al'ar though, had some other people that wanted gear further into the instance. I'll be doing it more tomorrow during Hyjal, we'llsee how it goes. The hard part for me is trying to keep track of my other totems.
#3505SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Xoya
In particular, our guild has the tank standing in the middle who then gets MD'd to. Over the next one to two minutes he drags Kaz'rogal up to the taurens warriors, then across to Thrall. I'd say that between warstomps and cripples, melee lose a fair amount of damage during this time, but maybe this is made up for by getting the tauren warriors and Thrall involved.
We just have our tank stand by the tauren and MD Kaz over to him. We don't drag him around at all.
#3506SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Yeah I imagine that that would be easier, and it's been suggested before, but oh well I suppose!
#3507SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
One thing I've been trying lately is using Haste Potions instead of Mana Potions, which seems to have boosted my DPS by quite a bit. But when I try to calculate the damage given by a full mana potion's worth of mana into Shock damage, it seemed that it's better than a Haste Potion, even with the 17% spell resist rate on bosses. And this is with 0 spellpower.

Here's my reasoning and maths: We assume that Totem Twisting is superior DPS to Shocking (Yo!'s sim agrees with this even after patch 2.3). Given that our mana costs without Shocking are negliable, we can infer that all extra mana gained is put into Shocks.

Shock DPM = [ Average Damage * Spell Crit * (1 - Spell Resist) ] / Cost
ES DPM = (675 * 1.05 * (1 - 0.14)) / 535 = 1.13929907
FS DPM = (((377 * 1.05) + 420) * (1 - 0.14)) / 535 = 1.31145981
(I assume Nature's Guidance and that the DoT portion of Flame Shock has resist rates like direct damage spells).

Debuff Coefficients:
SS: 1.2
Misery: 1.05
CoE: 1.1
Imp CoE: 1.13
Imp. Scorch: 1.15

Mana gained:
Fel Mana Potion: 3200
Super Mana Potion: 2520 (5% crit rate)
Major Mana Potion/Combat Mana Potion: 1890 (5% crit rate)

Then, to determine the damage from each consumable, I multiplied the DPM by the mana gain.

Fel Mana Potion damage
SS + Misery: 4557.2
CoE + Misery: 4826.17
Imp. CoE + Misery: 4952.07
Imp. Scorch + Misery: 5036.01
CoE + Imp. Scorch + Misery: 5455.67
Imp. CoE + Imp. Scorch + Misery: 5581.57

Super Mana Potion damage
SS + Misery: 3588.79
CoE + Misery: 3800.61
Imp. CoE + Misery: 3899.76
Imp. Scorch + Misery: 3965.85
CoE + Imp. Scorch + Misery: 4296.34
Imp. CoE + Imp. Scorch + Misery: 4395.49

Combat Mana Potion damage
SS + Misery: 2691.59
CoE + Misery: 2850.46
Imp. CoE + Misery: 2924.82
Imp. Scorch + Misery: 2974.39
CoE + Imp. Scorch + Misery: 3222.26
Imp. CoE + Imp. Scorch + Misery: 3296.62

A Haste Potion gives you 25% more white swings for 15 seconds, so:
Haste Potion damage = White DPS * 15 * .25

Since the best way to use Haste Potions would be to pop them during a Trinket/Drums/Bloodlust, the White DPS number will be more vague. What I did was run Yo!'s Sim with my stats as I expected them during Trinket/Drums and use the generated auto attack DPS number. It seems like you need something like 950 auto attack dps before a Haste Potion will outweigh even a Super Mana potion, just using Earth Shock with Stormstrike. This seems a bit contrary to what I thought happened to my dps when I switched to Haste Pots, but I can't see any holes in my reasoning here. Can anyone else?
#3508SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Well, assuming you have a good SR rotation and JoW in effect, then Haste Potions should be better, because you shouldn't NEED the mana from Super Mana Pots...
#3509SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Nite_Moogle
I'd say that your biggest challenge would be using the consumables properly between SRs and actually managing your cooldowns correctly to get your theoretical values. It'd be a fairly tight cycle and a lot of GCDs to manage. Also consider that using a haste potion in conjunction with SR can draw in a considerable amount of mana on its own -- a haste potion is 12.5% more SR procs.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/10/07 at 2:27 AM.
#3510SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Mana is just not an issue normally, even when you totem twist. I carry a couple stacks of Super Mana Potions on me for those rare situations in which I can use more mana, but normally I just use Haste Potions.
#3511SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Areus
Originally Posted by rava
I was pretty bad about it too, had a friend make a script for me that I use with a water shield macro:

/cast water shield
/run local f = CreateFrame"Frame" f:RegisterEvent"CHAT_MSG_SPELL_AURA_GONE_SELF" f:SetScript("OnEvent", function(_,_,m) if m:match("Water Shield") then UIErrorsFrame:AddMessage("RECAST WATERSHIELD") end end)

It displays in the mid top of the screen and has been quite some help with all of the garbage I have to pay attention to in a raid.
I use Parrot as my SCT mod and its really easy to configure notifications. One of the things that I have done is that I created my own scrolling frame, and then in the "Triggers" section you can have it yell at you when you lose a buff. I have mine set to notify me when my Watershield runs out and when I get my Invigorate proc from T5.

You can also set it up with an Audio Que so that you know what you have gained or lost, and since setting up this feature in the addon I have regen'd quite a bit more mana from WS, and many times knew I had an Invigorate up for the heal if I was to get low suddenly.

Its a nifty little feature that the mod allows, but its one of the bottom menu's that may go un-noticed.
#3512SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
My apologies, my browser crashed and ate my initial introduction about mana usage which I forgot to rewrite. Anyway, at my stage of gear, mana is definitely still an issue. I've been over this before, but the problem isn't with the amount of mana recovered from SR, it's that the size is such that the mana pool can be completely drained in between SR cooldowns. My standard rotation is SS->WF(rank 2)->GoA->Shock (sometimes I can fit in two shocks while waiting for WF weapon cooldown) and I definitely run dry before SR is up again. Hell, a shock every 10 seconds is 6000 mana in two minutes.

Admittedly, this is with minimal JoW uptime, but I don't think everyone can afford to rely on a good Paladin to keep JoW up every encounter anyway.

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I'd say that your biggest challenge would be using the consumables properly between SRs and actually managing your cooldowns correctly to get your theoretical values. It'd be a fairly tight cycle and a lot of GCDs to manage. Also consider that using a haste potion in conjunction with SR can draw in a considerable amount of mana on its own -- a haste potion is 12.5% more SR procs.
Yes, I forgot to include mana gain from increased SR procs, thanks. I gather the 12.5% value is estimated as half of the swings made during SR are white auto-attacks?
#3513SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
@panny: I noticed you don't have the last point in mental quickness and any points in totemic focus. Without these, a totem twisting & shocking rotation is pretty much impossible (check out disquette's spreadsheet a few pages back). I'd suggest dropping imp lightning sheild, imp GW, and ancestral healing for the mana reduction talents. With a spell crit rate that low, ancestral healing is a waste of points anyways.

PS. Make sure you have JoW/BoW if you have the pallies for it. It makes mana management much easier.
#3514SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by drats
@panny: I noticed you don't have the last point in mental quickness and any points in totemic focus. Without these, a totem twisting & shocking rotation is pretty much possible (check out disquette's spreadsheet a few pages back). I'd suggest dropping imp lightning sheild, imp GW, and ancestral healing for the mana reduction talents. With a spell crit rate that low, ancestral healing is a waste of points anyways.

PS. Make sure you have JoW/BoW if you have the pallies for it. It makes mana management much easier.
I don't think even with those talents, maintaining an SS->WF->GoA->Shock rotation is close to impossible without JoW.
Shock: ~500 Mana
WF Totem: 140 Mana
GoA: 310 Mana

Shocks get 6% off, Totems get 25% (or is it 31%?), which is still 780 mana every 10 seconds not counting Stormstrike cost. And I'd love to get a Paladin to keep JoW up, but since we've recently gone from 3-4 Paladins to 0-1, I'm loathe to push them too hard to do something they really don't want to do.

As for spec, I like Ghost Wolf and Lightning Shield for BGs and casual PvP so I won't be dropping them. You are right about Ancestral Healing though, I forgot that without Imp. HW, I wouldn't be healing 5 mans anyone anyway.

Last edited by panny : 10/10/07 at 4:08 AM.
#3515SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nobunda
Originally Posted by Areus
I use Parrot as my SCT mod and its really easy to configure notifications. One of the things that I have done is that I created my own scrolling frame, and then in the "Triggers" section you can have it yell at you when you lose a buff. I have mine set to notify me when my Watershield runs out and when I get my Invigorate proc from T5.

You can also set it up with an Audio Que so that you know what you have gained or lost, and since setting up this feature in the addon I have regen'd quite a bit more mana from WS, and many times knew I had an Invigorate up for the heal if I was to get low suddenly.

Its a nifty little feature that the mod allows, but its one of the bottom menu's that may go un-noticed.

I have been looking for a mod that will more or less tell me "Hey you got invigorate".. cause 7/10 times it ticks away un-noticed. Gonna check out parrot and see how it pans out. Thanks
#3516SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Azaranth
Nobunda, if that doesn't work, try Powa.

If you don't like that, I have a really small custom jobby I put together that's pretty much just for Invigorate.
#3517SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Nobunda
I have been looking for a mod that will more or less tell me "Hey you got invigorate".. cause 7/10 times it ticks away un-noticed. Gonna check out parrot and see how it pans out. Thanks
Enhancer also has this function, though if you are looking for a mod that JUST does this Enhancer isn't what you want, because it does a ton of other stuff too.
#3518SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
gorsameth
Personaly I use Power auras for visual indication of buffs and debuffs.
You can set it to check if you have or do not have buffs while in combat.
oofcourse if you dont want flashy effects on your screen this one isnt for you.

Last edited by gorsameth : 10/10/07 at 8:38 PM.
#3519SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nobunda
I have been looking for a mod that will more or less tell me "Hey you got invigorate".. cause 7/10 times it ticks away un-noticed. Gonna check out parrot and see how it pans out. Thanks
There is always http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Avion that allows to to show visual effects on certain events. And only that :P

__________________
Enhancer -Ace2- (Totem Timers, configurable AEP, Enhancement Itemization Points, GemPicker and more)
RaidSpy -Ace2- (Prints out the checks done by raid officers in chatframe)

Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin
#3520SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Malan
Avion is a huge pain in the ass to set up right now. I don't know what the the author was thinking - who the hell wants to navigate through dewdrop menus to set up animations for textures? What happened to the easy to use interface of PowerAuras? I'd stick with PowerAuras until he gets Avion figured out.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3521SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
I really hope they tweak T6 with 2.3. If they would exchange all the mp5 und some of the int with agility, four pieces of the set including the set bonus could challenge the leather setups.
#3522SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by panny
Yes, I forgot to include mana gain from increased SR procs, thanks. I gather the 12.5% value is estimated as half of the swings made during SR are white auto-attacks?
25% more swings over half the duration of SR.
#3523SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Deck
Disq - I like your mod - I have started using it recently, but I can't seem to figure out an automated or easy method of twisting. I am pretty sure I could use a cast sequence macro, but I don't know the best way to set it up. Can anyone give me some insight on how they have their keybindings and macros setup to make twisting effortless? Thank you.

__________________
Member of the the few, the proud, the enhancement shamans.
#3524SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Malan
/castsequence reset=8 Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem;

Oh hey look, that exact macro is in the OP.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#3525SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Duuberman
Ravager

Alright, here is a little something I discovered a while back, and I thought i might share it with you today. Pick up a ravager, that axe off of Herod in SM Arm. Put rockbiter on it. Next time there is an AOE pull, whip that thing out and hope to hell it procs. If it procs early enough, it can be a beautiful thing. Just make sure to click off your water/lightning shield first. For some reason that breaks the BLADESTORM!!! (Yelling blades of light is kinda lame, espeically as a horde character)

Shaman AOE ftw. No AOE cap too. :P

Last edited by Duuberman : 10/10/07 at 1:52 PM.
#3526SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Duuberman
Alright, here is a little something I discovered a while back, and I thought i might share it with you today. Pick up a ravager, that axe off of Herod in SM Arm. Put rockbiter on it. Next time there is an AOE pull, whip that thing out and hope to hell it procs. If it procs early enough, it can be a beautiful thing. Just make sure to click off your water/lightning shield first. For some reason that breaks the BLADESTORM!!! (Yelling blades of light is kinda lame, espeically as a horde character)

Shaman AOE ftw. No AOE cap too. :P
Are you seriously suggesting this to be used at level 70?

whip that thing out and hope to hell it procs
Yah that's a great methodology to rely on.
#3527SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
It sounds retarded, but there is merit to using the Ravager to clear out large numbers of NPCs. The weapon's DPS is terrible, but you still get full AP benefit on each hit, and it can hit anything in range with no target limit cap. When there's 20-30 mobs in range, it's far from a trivial amount of damage if you can get it to proc. There aren't a lot of situations where it's useful (the last room of Auchenai crypts, for example), but it isn't something to dismiss outright.
#3528SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
With the inherent drawback that you are using a 2H that hits less than a lvl 70 dagger would, while waiting for a proc. Where the heck is anyone pulling 20-30 mobs at a time that this would be useful? The AoE packs in Solarian's room, that live for a grand total of maybe 10-15 seconds?
#3529SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
I really hope they tweak T6 with 2.3. If they would exchange all the mp5 und some of the int with agility, four pieces of the set including the set bonus could challenge the leather setups.
Why would you think that they will? The idea was brought up numerous times in the Enhancement 2.3 post and Eyonix basically said "qq, some shamans want it and it's cheaper than having the AP equivalent".

As much as I would love for it to change it won't, and the set will forever sit in my bags as makeshift pvp gear or if I ever feel ugly because I made a male draenei and need an amazing looking set to make me feel better.
#3530SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
With the inherent drawback that you are using a 2H that hits less than a lvl 70 dagger would, while waiting for a proc. Where the heck is anyone pulling 20-30 mobs at a time that this would be useful? The AoE packs in Solarian's room, that live for a grand total of maybe 10-15 seconds?
It's fun to spin around.
#3531SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Unaz
I'm not sure if it's just a PvP thing, but that axe used to proc constantly sub 60, as in several times a fight. But I tried dueling at 70 with it, and it didn't proc once over several minutes of auto attacking.
#3532SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Duuberman
Regarding the ravager, yes it is not a very serious thing, and is extremely situational, but it still is surprising regarding the amount of damage it can put out. Try it, if anything, it makes running lowbies through instances a more pleasurable experience. Personally, I use it for the laughs, or if I'm aggro capped on farm bosses(again for laughs), but you still can't deny that it hits rather hard for a level 37 axe when combined with rockbiter. ~800-900 hits, double that crits for me personally. The beauty in it is the proc and how its damaged is multiplied in aoe situations. Try it, you will be surprised by the results.

Again, I have to emphasize that you must use rockbiter in order for it to anything remotely close to respectable damage, and yes, it's fun to spin around.

I suppose I should add that it procs off itself on the last swing. Before BC, it used to proc of any swing, so if you got more then 3 mobs, it goes on infidently, but still, if you have enough mobs going down at the same time, it can be one nasty ridiculous and goofy tornado of death. I'm not saying you will out AOE a mage or a warlock, but it does more then our fire nova totem or our magma totem with no spelldamage. 2.3 might change that, but I'd rather still spin hysterically.

Last edited by Duuberman : 10/10/07 at 4:49 PM.
#3533SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
Originally Posted by Duuberman
Regarding the ravager, yes it is not a very serious thing, and is extremely situational, but it still is surprising regarding the amount of damage it can put out. Try it, if anything, it makes running lowbies through instances a more pleasurable experience. Personally, I use it for the laughs, or if I'm aggro capped on farm bosses(again for laughs), but you still can't deny that it hits rather hard for a level 37 axe when combined with rockbiter. ~800-900 hits, double that crits for me personally. The beauty in it is the proc and how its damaged is multiplied in aoe situations. Try it, you will be surprised by the results.

Again, I have to emphasize that you must use rockbiter in order for it to anything remotely close to respectable damage, and yes, it's fun to spin around.

I suppose I should add that it procs off itself on the last swing. Before BC, it used to proc of any swing, so if you got more then 3 mobs, it goes on infidently, but still, if you have enough mobs going down at the same time, it can be one nasty ridiculous and goofy tornado of death. I'm not saying you will out AOE a mage or a warlock, but it does more then our fire nova totem or our magma totem with no spelldamage. 2.3 might change that, but I'd rather still spin hysterically.
I might try this on hyjal trash when casters are AoEing. Bout time shaman get a blade flurry :P(joke)
#3534SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Duuberman
Originally Posted by falonub
I might try this on hyjal trash when casters are AoEing. Bout time shaman get a blade flurry :P(joke)
Psh, better then blade flurry, its Bladestorm!!!
#3535SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nobunda
Originally Posted by Azaranth
Nobunda, if that doesn't work, try Powa.

If you don't like that, I have a really small custom jobby I put together that's pretty much just for Invigorate.
Interested in your jobby for Invigorate... as well I have tried enhancer and I find that I dont care for it all that much. Will try power aura and avion and play with them and see what turns out to be the best for my UI.

Thanks for your help guys... as well, I got rid of my ravenger ages ago. No intention of going back to SM to get another. It was fun to play with... but thats about it.
#3536SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Oteb
Bascily i let WF tick for 5 seconds without goa and goa on first refresh of totem buff.
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
#3537SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nobunda
What I typically do... spam my totem macro sequence which consist of WF, SOE, Mana Spring (in that order)... then start spamming the heck outta my twist macro shown on post 1. That seems to keep the melee group happy and when the other 2 totems are about to expire... Rince and repeat.

Going this route may seem like a mana waste cause im droping wf totem twice within a short time... but I would rather blow a bit more mana than have the WF buff come off the groups weapon.
#3538SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by rava
Why would you think that they will? The idea was brought up numerous times in the Enhancement 2.3 post and Eyonix basically said "qq, some shamans want it and it's cheaper than having the AP equivalent".

As much as I would love for it to change it won't, and the set will forever sit in my bags as makeshift pvp gear or if I ever feel ugly because I made a male draenei and need an amazing looking set to make me feel better.
Where did he state that? I only found this answer to a question about mp5 on enhancer items: "I've not done an extensive review of the item changes going into 2.3. If there is anything to address this concern, I'll let you know. Regardless though, your point is noted."

Later on someone asked for spelldam instead of mp5 and he answered: "I wasn't referring to seeking out int and mana/5, but they are on many enhancement items, affect the total item budget very little, and do help. My main point was that int and mana/5, in my opinion would be more useful than spell damage/crit."

And in the end, it's not his call. They removed spelldam from T4 and T5, so I don't see a reason, they would not be able to do this with mp5, too. Especially when we now can use Elemental Focus as an additional argument against mp5.

When 2.3 goes live on the PTR without T6 changes, we should remind them heavily about this issue on the forums and with the inGame comment function.
#3539SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
He's still letting GoA go for the full 10 seconds. He just leaves WF down a bit longer so he can more easily sustain the rotation while shocking.
#3540SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Yes but the WF Buff does not last 10 seconds.
#3541SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Doctah
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes but the WF Buff does not last 10 seconds.
Indeed it does last 10 secs refreshing every 5 sec hehe. The timer however as all other wow timers rounds down the number visible so it appears to start at 9 sec.
#3542SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aknazer
One thing that used to work with the ravager was when it procced off of a WF attack. Now I doubt that this still works, but back at 60 (which was the last time I used the axe) it you started to spin the same second that WF procced then that first attack with Ravager would have the bonus AP from WF. It was pretty crazy at lvl60 to be seeing 800-1.6k attacks (depending on if it crit or not) with a lvl37 weapon. Now I doubt that that still works since your paperdoll no longer shows the AP gain from WF like it did back then, but the talk of the ravager reminded me of that.
#3543SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Duuberman
Originally Posted by Aknazer
One thing that used to work with the ravager was when it procced off of a WF attack. Now I doubt that this still works, but back at 60 (which was the last time I used the axe) it you started to spin the same second that WF procced then that first attack with Ravager would have the bonus AP from WF. It was pretty crazy at lvl60 to be seeing 800-1.6k attacks (depending on if it crit or not) with a lvl37 weapon. Now I doubt that that still works since your paperdoll no longer shows the AP gain from WF like it did back then, but the talk of the ravager reminded me of that.
Yeah, they have nerfed it a bunch, which is a shame. I used to use one when I was bored in mc back when. Good times, maybe...
#3544SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
25% more swings over half the duration of SR.
But haste doesn't affect SS/WF (much) so it's not a straight percentage. >:

Oh well, I guess it's mostly a moot point by the time 2.3 rolls around anyway.
#3545SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Gwaihir
Originally Posted by Aknazer
One thing that used to work with the ravager was when it procced off of a WF attack. Now I doubt that this still works, but back at 60 (which was the last time I used the axe) it you started to spin the same second that WF procced then that first attack with Ravager would have the bonus AP from WF. It was pretty crazy at lvl60 to be seeing 800-1.6k attacks (depending on if it crit or not) with a lvl37 weapon. Now I doubt that that still works since your paperdoll no longer shows the AP gain from WF like it did back then, but the talk of the ravager reminded me of that.
If you are using the WF totem I think you still see a momentary hop in character sheet AP when a WF proc goes off.
#3546SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Visionnaire
Eh, I don't believe in raw totem twisting.

I don't have macros set up for them simply because I find it is very situational. It depends on the fight. If I can spare the mana, I'll lay down GoA a few times for a bit extra DPS, but by no means will I put it in my rotation for DPS.
#3547SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aegospotami
I've read the main post several times and I understand the stat value of Hit Rating vs Strength and other stats, but I'm having a little trouble zeroing in on the Hit Rating range I should have to be effective.

The reason I'm asking is because I recently upgraded two blues to purples, replacing one part of the Desolation mail gear set and another item for a total loss of 66 hit rating, taking me down to only 69 hit total.

Now, I know the main post says +Hit gems are always the wrong answer, but can that be true if my Hit Rating has dipped so low? I could run Karazhan again next week when it resets and maybe some great items with +Hit will drop, but then again maybe not. My primary concern is that I might be gimping myself by equipping the upgrades I just got, because they take away so much Hit Rating.

So I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, what's the acceptable "range" for Hit Rating for a raiding shaman?
#3548SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
So I guess this is a long-winded way of saying, what's the acceptable "range" for Hit Rating for a raiding shaman?
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
#3549SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by Malan
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
Out of 30 seconds I have wf active 30 seconds and goa active around 20 (slightly less)
In normal totem twisting WF is active 30 and goa 25,5 (rouhgly)
So my net loss of goa uptime is quite minimal but it doesnt put me on constant gcd if I maintain shock rotation between totems. Also its slightly less mana intensive. Another bonus is that it lets flame shock tick for its full duration as shock is not used every 6 seconds.
IMO its a good mix of twisting with shocking as you get some of both.
#3550SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb
Out of 30 seconds I have wf active 30 seconds and goa active around 20 (slightly less)
In normal totem twisting WF is active 30 and goa 25,5 (rouhgly)
So my net loss of goa uptime is quite minimal but it doesnt put me on constant gcd if I maintain shock rotation between totems. Also its slightly less mana intensive. Another bonus is that it lets flame shock tick for its full duration as shock is not used every 6 seconds.
IMO its a good mix of twisting with shocking as you get some of both.
20/30 = 0.667
25.5/30 = 0.85

0.85/0.6667 = 27% GoA time difference. Given that you're choosing to totem twist in the first place, why do it half arsed? Just for the ease of having a perfect 30 second cycle? Exactly what are you using those extra GCDs gained for anyway?

Even while doing a full burn rotation (SS->WF->GoA->Shock), you'll have periods of time where you have nothing to do in your GCDs anyway, plently of time for you to refresh other totems. As for shocks, you can use Earth Shock if the Flame Shock debuff is still up. None of these reasons are good enough for sticking to an artifical lower DPS cycle, unless you're having problems with concentration or focus.
#3551SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb
Out of 30 seconds I have wf active 30 seconds and goa active around 20 (slightly less)
In normal totem twisting WF is active 30 and goa 25,5 (rouhgly)
So my net loss of goa uptime is quite minimal but it doesnt put me on constant gcd if I maintain shock rotation between totems. Also its slightly less mana intensive. Another bonus is that it lets flame shock tick for its full duration as shock is not used every 6 seconds.
IMO its a good mix of twisting with shocking as you get some of both.
20/30 = 0.667
25.5/30 = 0.85

0.85/0.6667 = 27% GoA time difference. Given that you're choosing to totem twist in the first place, why do it half arsed? Just for the ease of having a perfect 30 second cycle? Exactly what are you using those extra GCDs gained for anyway?

Even while doing a full burn rotation (SS->WF->GoA->Shock), you'll have periods of time where you have nothing to do in your GCDs anyway, plently of time for you to refresh other totems. As for shocks, you can use Earth Shock if the Flame Shock debuff is still up. None of these reasons are good enough for sticking to an artifical lower DPS cycle, unless you're having problems with concentration or focus.
#3552SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Visionnaire
Eh, I don't believe in raw totem twisting.

I don't have macros set up for them simply because I find it is very situational. It depends on the fight. If I can spare the mana, I'll lay down GoA a few times for a bit extra DPS, but by no means will I put it in my rotation for DPS.
That's a very silly thing to say.

What do you mean, 'i don't believe in totem twisting' ?

What don't you believe in? that it boosts dps a lot more than just regular totem dropping?

How can you say a group dps boost is situational? I would say the exact contrary, not using it is very situational, as they are a few fights for which it's not really adapted. But for the grand majority of the raids, having more dps is always good. And there is no better use of your GCD than to twist these totems for the simple and obvious reason that giving this agi to your whole group is immensly superior to doing a few more shocks, or whatever your using your GCD for.
#3553SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Malan
Why bother letting WF tick for 5 seconds? You're giving yourself like 3 seconds of GoA time like that. It refreshes the buff the instant its dropped, you can use GoA the instant you come out of GCD and WF will remain there for 8 seconds.
Windfury totem on a weapon has a duration of 9 secs BUT it refreshes every 5 secs.

Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.

You'd have to time it very good though since if you put it down just slightly to fast by misstake (timers in wow leave quite a bit to wish for) your group would have ~8 seconds without Windfury. At worst with instant twisting your group would have ~1 second without Windfury and that's only if you are to late refreshing totems and that's still a possibility with the above method so it adds to that as well.
#3554SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Tristan
Windfury totem on a weapon has a duration of 9 secs BUT it refreshes every 5 secs.

Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.
I think we all understood that.

The criticism isn't about losing WF uptime but GoA! Basically with this rotation not only do you miss out on having GoA down and thus more critchance when you SS, but your group lose about 27% uptime on GoA (i assume previous poster calculation is correct, i'm too lazy to check on it but it sounds about right).
As a previous poster says, why bother doing a totem twist if you don't optimize it?
#3555SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Tristan
Originally Posted by Shakkha
I think we all understood that.
If you look at what I quoted I think it's clear not everyone got it, granted the explanation was mixed up in 2 posts previous to mine but can't hurt to clarify it considering how often things get asked repeatedly in this thread. Also one of them was wrong about rounding, blizzard is rounding everything I've checked up not down.

Originally Posted by Shakkha
As a previous poster says, why bother doing a totem twist if you don't optimize it?
That's a stupid comment, that's like saying a small improvment is worse then no improvment at all. Perhaps he can't sustain it mana wise, I really don't know his reasons.

I never suggested he shouldn't twist all out, personally I believe twisting all out would be safer, easier and better.

Last edited by Tristan : 10/11/07 at 5:43 AM.
#3556SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Well. First and most important reason is mana. I cant seem to sustain 85% goa uptime + shocking, while i can do 65% just fine (where did 27% difference come from dunno). For me its either shocking every 6 seconds or full totem twist or the combintation of two I posted.
Moreover I seem to always find things to do in spare gcd be it decursing or refreshing totems and shields or talking shit in party chat. In perfect case scenario where mob fight is static and I can use full SR duration every cooldown I probably would be able to maintain faster twisting whith some shocks but those cases are few in raid encounters. guild is up to kael and only fight I can think of where I might do it is Morogrim (and maybe 30% of fathom lord). And as for timing its quite ez with some addons I found in this thread
#3557SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb
Well. First and most important reason is mana. I cant seem to sustain 85% goa uptime + shocking, while i can do 65% just fine (where did 27% difference come from dunno). For me its either shocking every 6 seconds or full totem twist or the combintation of two I posted.
Moreover I seem to always find things to do in spare gcd be it decursing or refreshing totems and shields or talking shit in party chat. In perfect case scenario where mob fight is static and I can use full SR duration every cooldown I probably would be able to maintain faster twisting whith some shocks but those cases are few in raid encounters. guild is up to kael and only fight I can think of where I might do it is Morogrim (and maybe 30% of fathom lord). And as for timing its quite ez with some addons I found in this thread
85/65 = 27%. When you compare two alternate methods, you compare them with each other, not an impossible maximum (100%).

The problem is you don't justify your combination method of twisting and shocking. If you have mana issues sustaining both, you determine which one gives more damage over a fight and stop doing the other one except when you have excess mana. Attempting to do both half-arsed is silly.

You have more than enough time to refresh totems and shields no matter what rotation you take, this is a poor excuse for a reason (as I've pointed out). As for decursing, I find it pretty rare that I need to 'decurse' someone that my cleansing totem or a healer hasn't already taken care of. I'd be interested to see a WWS of any fight where you're doing significant amounts of cleansing.

As for prioritizing talking shit in /p instead of trying to maximise your contribution, that's your choice to do, just don't try to use it as a justification for the rest of us.
#3558SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by rava
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
I didn't even try to get any hitrating, but here I am. I have 121. =/
#3559SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Tristan
Basically he's using the first 5 second window before the first refresh for other things then twisting. At the 5 seconds the duration is increased for anyone in range to 9 again and dropping GoA there gives him a full twist time of GoA.

You'd have to time it very good though since if you put it down just slightly to fast by misstake (timers in wow leave quite a bit to wish for) your group would have ~8 seconds without Windfury. At worst with instant twisting your group would have ~1 second without Windfury and that's only if you are to late refreshing totems and that's still a possibility with the above method so it adds to that as well.
I'm aware of what he meant, and I agree with your 2nd point - screwing up that particular rotation that he's laid out is by far worse then if I screw up doing an instant twist rotation. He screws up, his group goes a GoA window with no WF buff. I screw up, group gets WF but GoA window gets cut off a little bit.
#3560SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Oteb
Originally Posted by panny
85/65 = 27%. When you compare two alternate methods, you compare them with each other, not an impossible maximum (100%).

The problem is you don't justify your combination method of twisting and shocking. If you have mana issues sustaining both, you determine which one gives more damage over a fight and stop doing the other one except when you have excess mana. Attempting to do both half-arsed is silly.

You have more than enough time to refresh totems and shields no matter what rotation you take, this is a poor excuse for a reason (as I've pointed out). As for decursing, I find it pretty rare that I need to 'decurse' someone that my cleansing totem or a healer hasn't already taken care of. I'd be interested to see a WWS of any fight where you're doing significant amounts of cleansing.

As for prioritizing talking shit in /p instead of trying to maximise your contribution, that's your choice to do, just don't try to use it as a justification for the rest of us.
I am always top or second on decursing done on vashij for example(killing nagas. all mages locks melee tanks are within range)
And as for dps contribution. The question is: is 20% more total uptime of goa is better than damage contribution of shocking. I bet answer is yes but only till patch. And only in perfect oe close to perftect group( we often raid without warrior or with just 1 rogue)

Last edited by Oteb : 10/11/07 at 9:59 AM.
#3561SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I've done some formatting changes to the OP, it now has very large section headers and a table of contents so that you may direct nubs to the appropriate locations.
#3562SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Lucentia
Oh good someone didn't screw with my browser settings

Though I think having the section titles THAT big is a little overbearing... Though it is easier to find any given section on a whim, its a bit harder to read as the titles are so attention grabbing, but then i am just nitpicking

But, on for my question, I am a newb(as the guild name proclaims), but been reading this thread for a week or so now, so much information! I have probably only read maybe a third or so of all the comments... so sorry if this has been covered.

I know in the OP regarding MH weapons, it says use the crafted mace over the crafted axe (unless your an orc, which I am not) and it seems the reason given is because of the belt which gives +25 weapon skills, but not axes...

Is the mace still better than the axe without that belt? because once I do get to 70... My guild is still going to be a long way from Vashj

Even so, I find myself slightly leaning towards the mace since the proc can push the weapon speed out of the "blackhole" between 1.41 and 1.50 which it seems Heroism + Flurry will drop any 2.6-2.8 speed weapon into (unless my calculations are wrong which is entirely possible ;p )

Last edited by Lucentia : 10/11/07 at 12:04 PM.
#3563SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
If you don't have the items with +Weapon Skill, then it doesn't matter if you use axes vs mace/fist.
#3564SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
There has been calculations about this so called "gap". It isn't detrimental to our DPS as first believed, so it doesn't matter.
For weapon calculations, it's best to use Yo's sim, as linked in the OP.

Edit: To answer your question: yes. The difference is so small that it really doesn't matter much. I believe the mace comes out a little over the axe, but the difference is really really small.

P.S. Capitalize properly please.
#3565SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Lucentia
Yeah I know, hit wise it makes no difference, but I suppose it is more a matter of opinion on, which is more useful? The haste proc or static AP and CR, haste probably scales the best between the two... Or is the difference really so minimal it just becomes an aesthetic choice?

**
Hmm, yeah, using Yo's just default stats and changing between +48 ap 1% crit or the haste proc, seems to estimate the haste being better by 17dps... Being a sim obviously that can fluctuate by actual experienced procs during a given fight... So I guess it really doesn't make much difference, but the mace would probably pull ahead very slightly more often than fall behind...

Last edited by Lucentia : 10/11/07 at 12:02 PM.
#3566SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm aware of what he meant, and I agree with your 2nd point - screwing up that particular rotation that he's laid out is by far worse then if I screw up doing an instant twist rotation. He screws up, his group goes a GoA window with no WF buff. I screw up, group gets WF but GoA window gets cut off a little bit.
I'm a little confused by what everyone means by 'screwing up'. Unless you drop GoA early, worst case senario is that you don't get the full 9-10s of GoA + WF. I did my totem twisting this way when I had mana problems (read: Paladins weren't doing their jobs) but it's a pain in the ass when learning new encounters. Double clicking then having 8 seconds to deal with the encounter is much easier. On the other hand, having 10 full seconds of GoA usually means more WF crits.

Great work with the contents Malan, but I doubt it will keep the people who weren't reading the OP from asking those silly questions.
#3567SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Vapid
Originally Posted by Malan
I've done some formatting changes to the OP, it now has very large section headers and a table of contents so that you may direct nubs to the appropriate locations.


Sorry to nitpick, but would it be possible to scale up the table in "VIII.7.2 Is a 2H weapon viable for Enhancement DPS?" (or allow it to be link enlarged)?

Last edited by Vapid : 10/11/07 at 1:05 PM. Reason: clarity
#3568SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Illundai
I didn't even try to get any hitrating, but here I am. I have 121. =/
Using T6 means a lot of hit.
#3569SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by drats
I'm a little confused by what everyone means by 'screwing up'. Unless you drop GoA early, worst case senario is that you don't get the full 9-10s of GoA + WF. I did my totem twisting this way when I had mana problems (read: Paladins weren't doing their jobs) but it's a pain in the ass when learning new encounters. Double clicking then having 8 seconds to deal with the encounter is much easier. On the other hand, having 10 full seconds of GoA usually means more WF crits.

Great work with the contents Malan, but I doubt it will keep the people who weren't reading the OP from asking those silly questions.
Screwing up of me would be quite hard. I got a bar in my UI that shows duration of WF buff. I drop goa when it refreshes then drop wf when i reaches 0. After some practice its now second nature and i dont even think about it.
#3570SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
@Yo, did you change your sim model recently, DPS output dropped a fair amount since I last compared values.

Example:
2500 AP (without UR), 40% Crit, 20% Hit, 0% Haste, 4400 Armor, two 100 DPS weapons

Disable all buffs, including Mongoose etc.

Your sim outputs: 492 DPS WhiteDPS, 100% UR, 88% Flurry
Armor Reduction: 29% for 4400 Armor

Let's do some math:
White DPS for two identical weapons factor: 1.5 (offhand dps is 0.5)
I assume 5% Dodge for now and 28% miss
Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5+40)/100 = 1.27
Adjusted flurried Weaponspeed = 2.072 (12*2.6 + 88*2.0)/100
Flurry Factor = 1.254 (2.6/2.072)
Weaponmastery: 1.1
Now DPS calc should be: 0.71*1.5*1.27*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 553 DPS

This is some 60 DPS more and the gap increases with more/better stats.

This is just for WhiteDPS, similar method can be applied to windfury (same calculation to some degree).

If we enable only Dual Wielding, disable every other Talent and remove the Armor completely (0 Armor) your result is 510:
The formula for that would be 1.5*1.27*(2500/14+100) = 530
You probably assume a higher dodge rate somewhere, if you assume 9% (which can be explained by applying a similar partial weaponskill dependent function on dodge) I get your values, if you do not assume 9% dodge, then you maybe missed something.

If we assume 28% hit, 0 AP, 0 Crit etc. and the two 100 DPS weapons, your result is 128
now hit and crit are out of the equation, your assume dodge value is close to 15%.
I don't know what other criteria you consider while swinging but something is obviously lowering the dps more than it should. Do you assume parry from behind or any other further reduction from within the attacktable?
#3571SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
I've always thought the DPS values output were way too high anyways (was putting me at like 1200-1300), so if they've scaled down that might be better.

@Vapid - odd. No idea how it got so small, I'll work on fixing that.

Ok changed the link and its full size now.

Last edited by Malan : 10/11/07 at 1:53 PM.
#3572SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Question to Smiths

To any smiths with 2 Syphons:

Did you see a DPS increase switching from Dragonstrike to Syphon in the MH? I got my 2nd yesterday and beat on blasted lands mobs for 30 min periods with different weapon combinations and double Syphon is coming up 6% lower than Dragonstrike, when I run the sim with the different combinations the gap narrows to 2%.

Sims and mobs 13 levels lower aside I want to believe that Syphons are better but I just can't, any insight from those of you who have switched from Dragonstrike to Syphon if your raid dps increased/decreased/didn't change ect?
#3573SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Malan
I've always thought the DPS values output were way too high anyways (was putting me at like 1200-1300), so if they've scaled down that might be better.

@Vapid - odd. No idea how it got so small, I'll work on fixing that.
Actually scaling down the DPS should not be necessary for simulation.
I know that my Windfury calculation is a bit too high in my model, but the white dps should not differ that much at all.
#3574SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Sorry, by scaling down I simply meant that he might have fixed some calculations that were making the DPS calculation abnormally high.
#3575SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
@Yo, did you change your sim model recently, DPS output dropped a fair amount since I last compared values.

Example:
2500 AP (without UR), 40% Crit, 20% Hit, 0% Haste, 4400 Armor, two 100 DPS weapons

Disable all buffs, including Mongoose etc.

Your sim outputs: 492 DPS WhiteDPS, 100% UR, 88% Flurry
Armor Reduction: 29% for 4400 Armor

Let's do some math:
White DPS for two identical weapons factor: 1.5 (offhand dps is 0.5)
I assume 5% Dodge for now and 28% miss
Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5+40)/100 = 1.27
Adjusted flurried Weaponspeed = 2.072 (12*2.6 + 88*2.0)/100
Flurry Factor = 1.254 (2.6/2.072)
Weaponmastery: 1.1
Now DPS calc should be: 0.71*1.5*1.27*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 553 DPS

This is some 60 DPS more and the gap increases with more/better stats.

This is just for WhiteDPS, similar method can be applied to windfury (same calculation to some degree).

If we enable only Dual Wielding, disable every other Talent and remove the Armor completely (0 Armor) your result is 510:
The formula for that would be 1.5*1.27*(2500/14+100) = 530
You probably assume a higher dodge rate somewhere, if you assume 9% (which can be explained by applying a similar partial weaponskill dependent function on dodge) I get your values, if you do not assume 9% dodge, then you maybe missed something.

If we assume 28% hit, 0 AP, 0 Crit etc. and the two 100 DPS weapons, your result is 128
now hit and crit are out of the equation, your assume dodge value is close to 15%.
I don't know what other criteria you consider while swinging but something is obviously lowering the dps more than it should. Do you assume parry from behind or any other further reduction from within the attacktable?
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see you include glancing blows here, and I believe Yo's sim has them.
#3576SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Ah yes, Glancing Blows, 6.25 Adjusted Attacktable factor (100-28+20-5-6.25+40)/100 = 1.202

This explains the missing 0.06.

0.71*1.5*1.202*1.254*1.1*(2500*1.1/14+100) = 523 DPS

Still missing 30 dps somewhere.
#3577SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
• Krish
There are two important questions that I'd like to ask:

1) Yo, the way your simulator is currently set up, I am getting a measly 47 DPS from Flameshock/Earthshock with CoE, Scorch, and Misery selected, and the 30% AP -> spell damage deselected (if I select it, I'm only getting 87 DPS). This seems very low to me, and so I was wondering if the default values for boss resistances are incorrect at 365. Am I simply overestimating how much DPS shocks should contribute? I'm using 5.4% spell crit and 3% spell hit. Normally, since there is nothing you can really do to change how much DPS the proper shock rotation does, I'm not too worried. I am, however, using a second pawn string to show me the AEP values of items after the 2.3 change, so that I can make good long-term decisions now. The accuracy of shock damage values essentially affects the relative weight of AP and Strength, and determines by how much the value of the other stats decreases.

2) There has been some discussion of the benefits of waiting until you're outside the 3 second internal WF cooldown to Storm Strike. I have yet to find any good math that would help me determine just how long it might be worth waiting. I also have the Ashtongue Talisman, which would seem to complicate this some. Disquette, I'm loving DisqoDice for this, but would just love to know how to use this information to its fullest. I was thinking that Yo's simulator could probably help us arrive at some good math if it were changed to allow the simulator to optimize a "maximum time to wait for SS" kind of output.

Last edited by Krish : 10/11/07 at 4:51 PM.
#3578SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
Krish, I know what you mean. Pretty much If I have 1/2 a red bar or less, I'm waiting for it. Half a red bar or more, I SS anyway. It's largely dependent on global cooldowns also, though.

If I have 2/3 of a red bar when WF is expiring, I'm redropping the totem, and the global CD takes me most of the way through the red bar anyway.
#3579SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Slothrop
Basic totem-twisting build?

Originally Posted by drats
@panny: I noticed you don't have the last point in mental quickness and any points in totemic focus. Without these, a totem twisting & shocking rotation is pretty much impossible (check out disquette's spreadsheet a few pages back). I'd suggest dropping imp lightning sheild, imp GW, and ancestral healing for the mana reduction talents. With a spell crit rate that low, ancestral healing is a waste of points anyways.

PS. Make sure you have JoW/BoW if you have the pallies for it. It makes mana management much easier.
I know the OP asked not to discuss builds, I've gone through the entire OP and searched various threads and could not find a Shaman builds discussion. While I would be interested in finding different builds (such as 0/42/19, 0/44/17, etc.) contrasted, I have some specific questions about enhancement builds not answered in the OP.

This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness.

What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans?
#3580SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Depending on your mana constraints, the main thing you're going to want is 5 points in Totemic Focus, which drops the mana cost of the totems much more than MQ does. With the 2.3 notes out in the wild, there will probably be a fair amount of discussion about what what the new 'staple' build is.
#3581SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Slothrop
I know the OP asked not to discuss builds, I've gone through the entire OP and searched various threads and could not find a Shaman builds discussion. While I would be interested in finding different builds (such as 0/42/19, 0/44/17, etc.) contrasted, I have some specific questions about enhancement builds not answered in the OP.

This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness.

What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans?
I've been 45/16 for as long as I can remember, totemic focus is a definite must and mental quickness is an added boost. I'd call that the basic build right now for, as much as I hate the phrase, totem twisting.
#3582SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Originally Posted by Malan
I've added a sub-section refuting Elemental Devastation builds.
This is somewhat depressing. Even the most careless analysis comes to a very quick and very clear conclusion about the quality of that talent.

On a serious note the fact that they seem to have revisted the BT trinkets is probably bad news for us. I would be somewhat shocked if our uptime has not been changed. I will test this first thing when I get home from work.
#3583SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Slothrop
I know the OP asked not to discuss builds, I've gone through the entire OP and searched various threads and could not find a Shaman builds discussion. While I would be interested in finding different builds (such as 0/42/19, 0/44/17, etc.) contrasted, I have some specific questions about enhancement builds not answered in the OP.

This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator) do not assign any points at all to mental quickness.

What would be considered a basic, no-frills build for totem-twisting enhancement shamans?
I think Healing Focus is pretty much a waste of 5 talent points for an enhancement shaman.
#3584SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
For a raid it's definitely a waste, but for world or unorganized BG PvP and solo grinding it can be extremely useful.

This is probably the purest enhancement PvE build post-2.3.

Last edited by Rob : 10/11/07 at 6:08 PM.
#3585SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
The only time I have even remotely wished I had Healing Focus was on rare occasions on Archimonde where I've somehow gotten doomfire + airburst, there was no healer in range of me, and I wanted to keep myself topped off after my absorb pot wore off before running back in closer to Archimonde. Even then, though, I've never died to not having Healing Focus, and I certainly wouldn't waste 5 points on it.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/11/07 at 6:04 PM. Reason: grammar
#3586SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
From 2.3 PTR notes (taken them from WoR as forums ones are cut off)

First Weapon Skill change?

- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.

Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating. Ranged attacks do not benefit from expertise, so ranged weapon skill has generally been replaced by critical strike bonuses or hit bonuses. In a few cases, talents have been changed to other effects to avoid granting players excessive amounts of expertise.

And then shamans --

Shaman
- Chain Lightning cast time reduced to 2.0 (from 2.5), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.
- Cure Poison and Cure Disease range increased to 40 yards.
- Elemental Focus (Elemental) now reduces the mana cost of the next 2 damage spells by 40%.
- Frost Shock is no longer subject to diminishing returns.
- Grounding Totem: This totem is now destroyed upon redirecting any spell to itself.
- Lightning Bolt cast time reduced to 2.5 (from 3.0 where applicable), mana costs reduced, benefit from spell damage reduced appropriately.
- Lightning Mastery (Elemental) cast time reduction reduced to .1/.2/.3/.4/.5 seconds.
- Lightning Overload (Elemental) now has a 4/8/12/16/20% chance to occur and the additional spell causes half damage and no additional threat.
- Mana Spring Totem effect increased.
- Mental Quickness (Enhancement) now also increases spell damage and healing equal to 10/20/30% of your attack power.
- Two-Handed Axes and Two-Handed Maces are now trainable by all Shaman at the appropriate weapon masters. The Enhancement talent has been replaced by Shamanistic Focus.
- Shamanistic Focus (New Enhancement Talent): After landing a melee critical strike, you enter a Focused state. The Focused state reduces the mana cost of your next Shock spell by 60%.
- Shamanistic Rage (Enhancement) now also reduces all damage taken by 30% for the duration.
- Spirit Weapons (Enhancement) threat reduction increased to 30% from 15%.
- Rockbiter Weapon: For ranks 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 the increased damage resulting from this enchantment has been reduced slightly to match the intended numbers given in the tooltip. Ranks 1, 2, 3, and 9 are unchanged.
- Water Shield: This spell no longer costs any mana to cast and its duration has been shortened. At the end of its duration, it now grants mana for any remaining globes. In addition, the mana granted per globe has been substantially increased.
- Windfury Weapon: This enchantment can no longer be triggered while you are disarmed.
#3587SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Rob
For a raid it's definitely a waste, but for world or unorganized BG PvP and solo grinding it can be extremely useful.

This is probably the purest enhancement PvE build post-2.3.
You have 1 free talent point!

First Weapon Skill change?

- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.

Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating. Ranged attacks do not benefit from expertise, so ranged weapon skill has generally been replaced by critical strike bonuses or hit bonuses. In a few cases, talents have been changed to other effects to avoid granting players excessive amounts of expertise.
So.. depending on skill->expertise conversions this could be a buff!
#3588SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beroll
- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.
- Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating.


What does this change mean to us Axe-wielding Orcs? How does +5 to Axes translate into Expertise Rating?
#3589SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Beroll
- Expertise: We have added a new stat and associated rating called expertise and expertise rating. Expertise rating converts to expertise at the same rate that weapon skill rating formerly converted at. Each point of expertise reduces the chance for your attacks to be dodged or parried by 0.25%.
- Weapon Skill: All items and abilities that granted weapon skill have been changed. In most cases, they were converted to expertise or expertise rating.


What does this change mean to us Axe-wielding Orcs? How does +5 to Axes translate into Expertise Rating?
My bet:
~1.25% less dodge and parry.

So you should only notice the difference while attacking from front (parry) and if you hit any +hit cap (be it 9% for yellow or 28% for dual wield)

But I guess we'll need to reevaluate the whole +Hitcap story again, since without weapon skill anymore we cannot really explain the 24%-28% values anymore. But i guess it is just replaced with higher dodge. Atleast we can assume now that any boss has 5.94% dodge and 5.94% parry (if applicable). Maybe they changed the whole miss thing anyway and this is actually a buff and not just some name change.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 10/11/07 at 6:32 PM.
#3590SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Unless we get something like 2 expertise rating per 1 skill rating, it sounds like a PvE nerf for Enhancement Shamans. Our only option was 100 Deaths and with a 1:1 conversion, we're now getting 1.5% fewer dodges instead of 3% more hits. (Parry reduction is only marginally useful on boss fights.)

I would bet that +5 to Axe weapon skill will be changed to something like +2% hit and +2% crit when wielding an axe, but I'm not really sure. It sounds like weapon-specific expertise is no longer something that Blizzard is interested in, but if they are, then maybe you'll get 5 expertise out of it (unknown # of rating).
#3591SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Yeh if they changed the 100 death belt to something different (like +crit/hit) we can easily assume that weapon expertise rating is primarily for tanks.
#3592SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
My bet:
~1.25% less dodge and parry.

So you should only notice the difference while attacking from front (parry) and if you hit any +hit cap (be it 9% for yellow or 28% for dual wield)

But I guess we'll need to reevaluate the whole +Hitcap story again, since without weapon skill anymore we cannot really explain the 24%-28% values anymore. But i guess it is just replaced with higher dodge. Atleast we can assume now that any boss has 5.94% dodge and 5.94% parry (if applicable). Maybe they changed the whole miss thing anyway and this is actually a buff and not just some name change.
So far it sounds like the second big Orc-nerf to me and I'm upset about it. Two years ago I decided to create an Orc because of his racials, not because of his look or something...
#3593SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Razar
From the 2.3 Patch notes:
Ashtongue Talisman of Vision: This item will no longer receive multiple chances to trigger per cast of Stormstrike.
The AEP of the [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] will likely need to be recalculated.
#3594SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Slothrop
Originally Posted by rava
I've been 45/16 for as long as I can remember, totemic focus is a definite must and mental quickness is an added boost. I'd call that the basic build right now for, as much as I hate the phrase, totem twisting.
Is this the 0/45/16 build you are talking about? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I checked out the most popular 0/45/16 builds on The Build Mine (What are the top 10 Shaman specs, and the top 10 builds of that spec?), and among those oriented for PvE, I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else. And they also differ in how they get to Totemic Mastery and Nature's Guidance in the way they split the first five resto points between "Improved Healing Wave" vs. "Tidal Focus".

I'd be interested in views on these tradeoffs in a 0/45/16 build.
#3595SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Slothrop
Is this the 0/45/16 build you are talking about? Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I checked out the most popular 0/45/16 builds on The Build Mine (What are the top 10 Shaman specs, and the top 10 builds of that spec?), and among those oriented for PvE, I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else. And they also differ in how they get to Totemic Mastery and Nature's Guidance in the way they split the first five resto points between "Improved Healing Wave" vs. "Tidal Focus".

I'd be interested in views on these tradeoffs in a 0/45/16 build.
Anticipation is by far the worst PVE talent out of all of those that you listed. I don't see why anyone would drop points anywhere to max anticipation. I also have 0 desire to click through a dozen different allocations of the third tier of enhancement talents, I'll swap out a point in anticipation for shamanistic focus when it's released and it'll still be the best raid DPS spec.
#3596SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Razar
From the 2.3 Patch notes:


The AEP of the [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] will likely need to be recalculated.
Ugh. Unless the AP got buffed, if it's really down to 50% per SS, DST, Madness, and TT all beat it -- even before considering that SS can be dodged or parried. Oh well, we knew this was coming.
#3597SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Bah, I knew the change to the Ashtongue trinket was coming, but seriously it was quite nice having it, so I'm rather annoyed about it, especially considering due to my reroll from Resto to Enhancement came recently; so I never really got a chance at getting a DST or a Tsunami Talisman, so I'm left out a bit in the cold if the nerf is harsh enough =/.

Oh well, just have to play the DST lottery every week I guess!
#3598SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Well, we can hope that the chance to proc on SS debuff application was removed but the chances to proc on each weapon hit still exist so we get a 75% proc chance if the SS isn't dodged or parried. That would yield something like 275*.75*.944 ~= 195 AEP when attacking from behind.
#3599SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Slothrop
This note from drats implies that even the last point is needed in mental quickness in order to totem twist and rotate shocks. But the typical builds I have seen for enhancement (e.g. 0/42/19:
I was trying to illustrate a point to the person I was replying to. He had no points in Totemic Focus, was missing the last point in Mental Quickness, and wasn't able to maintain a totem twisting rotation because of this.

Depending on your gear, it's possible to skip that last point and put it somewhere else. I just can't imagine a better return for 1 talent point once you've filled out the rest of the tree.

I see that although they follow the template above, the different versions of 0/45/16 trade off "Enhancing Totems" (for SoE), "Anticipation", "Weapons Totems" (for WF), and "Mental Quickness", since you can't put points in all four of these without giving up something somewhere else.
Rava said it already, but just to eliminate any confusion (and so people can refer back to it) I'll say it again. When speaking of maximizing group and personal DPS, you need all of those talents except anticipation. Two points in anticipation is the lesser evil when picking useless talents at the earlier tiers of enhancement, due to the fact it can save you in a jam.
#3600SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aegospotami
Originally Posted by rava
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
Thanks for responding to my post, but I have a slight beef here. Mr. "Math Crazed Spider Monkey" OP talks a lot about numbers and precise values, but he doesn't have anything that lists the range for hit rating, and "what you can manage" doesn't tell me anything.

I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation.

I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group.

Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
#3601SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by rava
I raid with 77, Sebudai raids with 80 something, the acceptable range is what you can manage while maximizing your other stats.
Thanks for responding to my post, but I have a slight beef here. Mr. "Math Crazed Spider Monkey" OP talks a lot about numbers and precise values, but he doesn't have anything that lists the range for hit rating, and "what you can manage" doesn't tell me anything.

I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation.

I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group.

Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
#3602SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
You know, you are acting awfully entitled.

Try reading the first post before you act like that.
Originally Posted by Malan
Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

Last edited by Rob : 10/11/07 at 9:37 PM.
#3603SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
There is no straight answer other than use whatever gear gives the most AEP for your current particular set of stats. This changes as you gain or lose different stats and you'll have to figure it out for yourself using any of the available simulations. You could even write words on the wall and throw darts at them to get the appropriate stats for you, it is that dependent on your current variables.

Missing doesn't hurt your group's dps, the only thing that affects them is mana (to drop totems) and critical strikes(for UR).
#3604SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Yeah, Malan summarized it pretty well. Both hit talents. That's it. All the hit that comes with your gear is a bonus. As you might notice from my profile that means quite some. I don't even aim for any hit, but all our sets have quite a lot of it... kinda.
#3605SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.

It clearly, quite clearly tells me exactly how much hit rating I "need" on my gear.

Since you are being bullheaded about this situation, I'll spell it out for you. An enchancement shaman "NEEDS ZERO +HIT" on their gear. That goes for every enhancement shaman who has the +hit talents maxxed out and is wearing reasonable gear.

If by some miracle you are wearing gear that nets you thousands of AP but absolutely zero crit chance and no +hit, you should run the simulators mentioned in the first post and see whether +hit has a higher AEP than other stats.
#3606SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
A thought I've had recently.. I find that even with just 63 hit rating there are times when I get somewhat unlucky and shamanistic rage doesn't actually fill my mana bar. This is mainly a problem on fights where I need to be saving my potion cooldowns for other things (super health pots, absorb pots, etc.). Am I correct in assuming that this isn't considered in the valuation for hit rating?
#3607SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
I guess the good times of a broken class trinket couldn't last, oh well. Hopefully they are unable to fix it patch after patch (lol vanish).
#3608SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
Thanks for responding to my post, but I have a slight beef here. Mr. "Math Crazed Spider Monkey" OP talks a lot about numbers and precise values, but he doesn't have anything that lists the range for hit rating, and "what you can manage" doesn't tell me anything.

I know the argument is that slightly more misses are acceptable if the hits themselves do enough damage to compensate for the misses, but there's no data on what AP should be to compensate for those misses, or what range hit should be to at least be effective in a raid situation.

I wish I could go and test this solo, but we all know I can't. So the only option is going into a raid untested and watch the performance while my miss rate could severely hurt the overal DPS of our melee group.

Again, I appreciate your reply, but this is supposedly the "bible" on enhancement mechanics -- according to people on the official forums and here -- and I can't get a straight answer from either place.
So what kind of an answer do you expect? You want a specific number to go after? Fine, I'll give you one, aim for 120. There is no reason behind it, I pulled it out of my butt, but at least you have no reason to act stupid. What you can manage is the best answer that can be given to you. Most of us that raid do not stack hit, nor do we ignore hit, we gain hit as our gear improves and provides us hit. You will see shamans anywhere from 70 to 200 hit rating depending on their gear. Focus on Crit and Attack Power and the like, and gather hit on good pieces of gear as you can.
#3609SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Oteb
I am always top or second on decursing done on vashij for example(killing nagas. all mages locks melee tanks are within range)
And as for dps contribution. The question is: is 20% more total uptime of goa is better than damage contribution of shocking. I bet answer is yes but only till patch. And only in perfect oe close to perftect group( we often raid without warrior or with just 1 rogue)
One fight is not enough to base your entire DPS cycle around

The question you pose is irrelevant. You prioritize the highest DPS method, and do the other one only when you have excess mana.
#3610SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Rob
You know, you are acting awfully entitled.

Try reading the first post before you act like that.
I've read the post about 15 times over the last month or two, and I mentioned that in my earlier post on top of thanking dude for his reply -- twice.

But if the High King of Enhancement Shaman OP is going to go on about having so much math behind his theorycraft, then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have. Otherwise don't pretend to be the authority on all things Enhancement, because most of us are just trying to optimize our toons amid a flood of information scattered across dozens of sites. (For instance, WoWWiki puts the *minimum* Hit Rating for pre-Kara at 125.)

You all know this is true -- go to the official forums and there will be 20 different answers.
#3611SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have.
How many times do we have to say this? You need 0 hit rating on your gear since yellow damage is capped with talents. At that point, crit and AP have a much better return then hit rating.
Do a search in this topic if you want the math behind it.

I kindly suggest you think twice about your next post, you'r walking a very thin line at the moment. The line of 'yet another official forums visitor who found a link to this topic there'.
And those people dont last long here.
#3612SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3seminarca
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
*minimum* Hit Rating
Wow, there's no reason to be this obtuse.

What everyone here is trying to tell you is that arbitrarily declaring "minimum" hit rating is absolutely useless.

Trust in the AEP. Run your stats through a sim. Evaluate all your gear options using the AEP you get from the sim. Pick the best options. From those best options you've just picked, add up all the hit rating on them. That number you get? THAT is the minimum hit rating you should be aiming for. And wow lookie here, you just reached it. If your gear then deviates substantially due to upgrades, run the sim again.
#3613SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
I've read the post about 15 times over the last month or two, and I mentioned that in my earlier post on top of thanking dude for his reply -- twice.

But if the High King of Enhancement Shaman OP is going to go on about having so much math behind his theorycraft, then it's reasonable to expect even a slight indication of how much hit a shaman should have. Otherwise don't pretend to be the authority on all things Enhancement, because most of us are just trying to optimize our toons amid a flood of information scattered across dozens of sites. (For instance, WoWWiki puts the *minimum* Hit Rating for pre-Kara at 125.)

You all know this is true -- go to the official forums and there will be 20 different answers.
The official forums suck. Wowwiki sucks. Get out of our thread if you're here to bicker and ask pointless questions. I think we need to try and cut down on links to the shaman forums when at all possible. Has anyone transfered over yet to test? Itching to see if the class trinket is balls now, or if it was somehow balanced even with the proc change.
#3614SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
So yeah now that we're done with the other guy, anyone care to comment on my observation about hit rating having an undocumented contribution to DPS in the form of added mana through Shamanistic Rage? (I say undocumented because I'm pretty certain it's not considered in the current ratings we use)
#3615SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n.../newloots9.jpg

Your shock spells have a chance to grant 110 attack power for 10 seconds.

zzzzzzzzz
#3616SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
smokey
nothing

Last edited by smokey : 10/12/07 at 1:42 AM.
#3617SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
That's ... pretty lame. :/ Shocks are cast once every 6 seconds, MAX, for an enhancement shaman. Compare this to the 100 haste rating elemental shamans get when they lightning bolt (which they're doing once every 2.2 seconds or so). I guess we'll have to wait and see what the proc rate is, but still. -_-
#3618SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boratz
@ Aegospotami

The reason people are getting frustrated with your question and persistence, is because it demonstrates an apparent lack of understanding as to what we all read/talk about here.

There is no single number to aim for because the 9% from our talents covers you well enough. If you get some on gear, great. If you don't, no need to cry.

The point is, you should be running some of the Simulators on the first page and inputting your current stats. Those sims (particularly Yo's sim) will give you an idea of what AEP values you need to be aiming for, and thus in terms of immediately upgrading your gear what items you should be seeking to acquire.

No one has an exact number because there isn't one. Its different for every shaman in every instance. The current values of your gear in terms of crit/hit/AP and so on will always mean that my requirements gear wise to increase my overall dps will almost, 99/100 times, be different to yours. They may result in us taking the same piece of gear, but at the end of the day my figures will likely differ from yours in terms of desired AEP values.

I hope this clarifys.
#3619SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kombinat
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.

I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group.

Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring.
#3620SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Has anyone looked at the new Badge of Justice loot? Except for the gloves (better than T5 gloves, I think), most of the leather seems much better than the mail due to the addition of sockets (also, I'm not sure how to rate armour penetration yet).
#3621SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
edit: nevermind found it on mmo-champion, wasn't showing on my wow forums page.

edit2: if it really only has a 50% chance to proc, its only a passive 137.5 ap which puts it down below the tsunami talisman I guess I don't care about exalted with the ashtongue anymore.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/12/07 at 3:26 AM. Reason: im an idiot.
#3622SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Kombinat
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.

I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group.

Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring.
This will be easier to answer if you have WWS parses or other clean data regarding how much dps you're doing and how much dps they're doing.

It could be that you're a phenom, and are doing a lot more damage than most enhance shaman. It could be that your gear really is that much better than theirs. It could be that they are horrible players.

It's just very hard to say without knowing the specifics. The easiest initial question to answer - what's your overall dps for the encounter. You know that you're in the top 3-5, so that means someone's running damage meters, so the info should be readily available.
#3623SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Getting some inconsistent results from Yo's simulator lately. I just ran five 10,000 hour simulations and these were the results:

Stat/AEP Value
Crit Rating - 2.35, 2.02, 1.86, 2.01, 2.31
Hit Rating - 1.92, 1.87, 1.68, 2.29, 1.92
Haste Rating - 2.33, 1.96, 2.03, 1.96, 1.95
Armor Penetration - 0.38, 0.39, 0.39, 0.38, 0.38
Agility - 2.28, 1.97, 1.81, 1.96, 2.24

Those values vary quite a bit. Am I doin' it wrong?
#3624SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Ran the simulator again, this time without the "30% ap to spell damage" option turned on, and the results were much more consistent:

Stat/AEP Value
Crit Rating - 2.01, 2.05, 2.06, 1.99, 2.09
Hit Rating - 1.95, 1.91, 1.98, 1.96, 1.97
Haste Rating - 1.95, 1.96, 1.99, 1.96, 2.03
Armor Penetration - 0.39, 0.39, 0.40, 0.39, 0.39
Agility - 1.96, 2.0, 2.0, 1.94, 2.03

So is checking the "30% ap to spell damage option on causing problems? Is this a known issue with the simulator? Is this an issue at all or is it working correctly?
#3625SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Kombinat
Here's a question for you all, and I hope like crazy that nobody in my guild ever finds out about my asking it.

I'm coming in the top 3-5 on our Gruul runs, and often. I'm beating mages and warlocks. I'm threat capped on most attempts, and I just don't shock on Gruul, too busy keeping totems up and timing my shamanistic rages, plus it gives me a bit of headroom on threat. I've gotten some upgrades recently, but nothing to crow about. In my gear, should this be happening? Shouldn't my fellow raiders be beating the ever loving piss out of me? Even with totem twisting, I'm out dpsing the rogues and warriors in my group.

Any input appreciated, regarding whether or not this should be occurring.
your gear is very similar to mine (nearly identical AP/crit, i have more hit and a dragonmaw) and i find myself in a very similar situation. Last week's gruul kill (our guild's 3rd, WWS here) i came in second at ~689 dps, losing only to our best BM hunter. I was right on the HS-tank's heels the whole fight. For me, this is simply a matter of the casual nature of my guild and the people in it. Just last week I got our shadow priest to try out stopcasting macros, and i'm pretty sure none of the mages or warlocks use them. I do better dps because most people in my guild aren't min/maxing at all.

Hell, in that WWS there's two other enhance shaman who come in below me (#6 & 10 in dps). Both of these shaman have been in the guild longer than me, have several pieces of arena gear, and have collected much more loot from Kara. One of them has the guild's only Dragonspine Trophy. But i still beat them because I've been reading this thread since it started and continually applying the knowledge here in game to make gear choices. I wear Midnight Legguards while one of them wears the t4 kilt for the 4-piece set bonus, and the other is waiting to replace his Midnight Legguards with Rip-Flayers. You are beating these people because they are not getting the most out of their class, be it poor gearing, poor play , or both.

Last edited by Skiace : 10/12/07 at 5:21 AM.
#3626SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3everwatch
WF/FT:

People keep saying this is "settled". However there are a few posts in here that state contrary information that I did not notice (I could have missed them) rebuttles to.

Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Afaik ft on the offhand is still buggy and using the mainhand speed dps, dunno if this was fixed yet, actually this bug is the only reason a slow/fast wf/ft combo does top slow/slow wf/wf damage theoretically for some cases.
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Here are some results with Yo's sim if anyone is interested in the 2.3 changes.
Currently in a 2.2 simulation I get 1358 dps, what is pretty accurate to my ingame dps. I have 2 syphons and a Swiftsteel Bludgeon with mongoose. I made 3 simulations for 10000 hours with different weapon and enchant setups:

There might have been one or two others, but I missed them or can't find them easily anymore.

The bug which may or may not have been fixed? Is this specifically refering to the Yo! sim? Or another? Nemaa's results showed a not to major of a dps loss by using FT. I did not see anyone refute Nemaa's findings, but with the "bug" mention I did not know if this was even viable or accurate information. A 70dps loss isn't something to just ignore, but nor is it a doomsday cry of stupidity and bad judgement. Plus weapon/gear availability could make some changes in choices for people as well.

Question to Nemaa: Could you list the stats you plugged in for the Sim please? Such as how much crit, haste, hit, AP, etc was used? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I personally used FT for a while a long time ago and it made me sad just because I hated not seeing the WF numbers going by. But if there are scenarios where FT performs in the same playing field as WF (and I'd *personally* consider within 100dps the same playing field when you're over 1k dps) I'd like to be aware of it.
#3627SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Either i need glasses or not all the heroic loot are known -- i started to do comparison with my current gear and first found no feet and then no head. Now looking also no shoulders Has anyone nice overview pic of enhance shaman list of eq?

EDIT: I have my Master's degree so i hope i do not need more classes, but if missed those slots then i might need glasses
#3628SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
everwatch
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Int and Mp5 are nearly meaningless stats. In fact, they are entirely meaningless as long as you have enough mana to sustain a 2 minute dps cycle(including totem twisting). I totem twist, and I never run out of mana. Both stats will have even less value after patch 2.3. I don't assign either of these stats any value at all. Stamina, on the other hand, does matter. I usually value each point at 0.5 AEP.

My current AEP values for the other stats are as follows:

Crit Rating/Agility - 2.0 AEP
Hit Rating - 2.0 AEP
Haste Rating - 1.9 AEP
Armor Penetration - 0.33

Here are AEP totals for a few items based off of those values:

Cursed Vision of Sargeras - 351 AEP
Skyshatter Cover - 264.1 AEP
Forest Prowler's Helm - 260.5 AEP

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator - 222.5 AEP
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 221.4 AEP

Midnight Chestguard - 353.5 AEP
Mail of Fevered Pursuit - 297 AEP
Skyshatter Tunic - 284 AEP

Bow-stitched Leggings - 303.5 AEP
Skyshatter Pants - 273.6 AEP

---

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator vs. Skyshatter Pauldrons is a toss-up. I'd just take whichever you can get first. Cursed Vision, Midnight Chestguard and Bow-stitched Leggings are the clear winners of those other slots, though.
Part of my question was to specifically count in the 4 set bonuses in your decisions.

I did some math on your AEP numbers, however I did not always get the same result as you did. I expect this was due to 2 factors. One is that you did not list the number you chose as the AEP for Strength. Also I expect that I may not be making the same gem selections as you are. The Skyshatter Tunic was 286 AEP when I did my math, for example. What gems you used and what your STR AEP is would help me.

But assuming your numbers for the moment, the 4 set bonus of Skyshatter is 70 AP for 12 seconds every time you use SS. Not hit with it, but use it. So there is no reason you can't keep this up. Resulting in +70AEP. The 2 piece bonus is a bit more difficult to work out the AP equivalent. A mana cost reduction on Shocks hardly seems huge. However since Shocks for many shaman equal 10% of their total dmg, it's hardly something to ignore.

So I agree with your helm choice. I stated I intended to go Cursed Vision myself. That leaves the BP, the Legs, and the Shoulders.

By your numbers:
Shoulders: This is a AEP loss of 1.1
BP: This is an AEP loss of 69.5
Legs: This is an AEP loss of 29.9

This is a net loss of 100.5 AEP to select Skyshatter armor for these 3 slots over the ideal top end item. However this is no way adds in the Tier bonuses. The 4 set alone adds in 70 AEP dropping the loss to 30.5 AEP. And then that leaves a comparison of 10% mana reduction on Shocks versus 30.5 AEP. Which I wouldn't begin to know the math formula to say which is better. However I would easily say that 10% mana reduction off of Shocks is easily comprable to 30 AP.

Going for the shoulders and the gloves of Skyshatter is a very solid way to go. Ignoring the helm, that leaves two very reasonable slots to go for T6 still over a unique item. Adding in the fact that it is much more reliable and probable that a T6 will drop over a specific unique item, it adds more weight into first picks for item slots in my opinion.

I have to say I do not see how the Midnight Chestguard and Bow-Stitched Leggings are the clear winners by any stretch of the word once you account for the 2 and 4 set bonuses on T6.

Last edited by everwatch : 10/12/07 at 7:19 AM.
#3629SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
(...) WoWWiki puts the *minimum* Hit Rating for pre-Kara at 125.)
You all know this is true -- go to the official forums and there will be 20 different answers.
You quote these two as 'source of information' and expect to be taken seriously.

The answer to your hit rating question was posted countless time thorough the 100+ pages of this thread, if you still don't get it, go back to the official forums and stop bothering us with yet the same old questions.

Originally Posted by Atren
Either i need glasses or not all the heroic loot are known -- i started to do comparison with my current gear and first found no feet and then no head. Now looking also no shoulders Has anyone nice overview pic of enhance shaman list of eq?

EDIT: I have my Master's degree so i hope i do not need more classes, but if missed those slots then i might need glasses
No you don't need glasses, there are huge itemization gaps there for enhancement shamans.

The common answers you'd find here, is to go to karazhan and get leather, but don't expect to find any off-hand!
#3630SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by everwatch
Part of my question was to specifically count in the 4 set bonuses in your decisions.

I did some math on your AEP numbers, however I did not always get the same result as you did. I expect this was due to 2 factors. One is that you did not list the number you chose as the AEP for Strength. Also I expect that I may not be making the same gem selections as you are. The Skyshatter Tunic was 286 AEP when I did my math, for example. What gems you used and what your STR AEP is would help me.

But assuming your numbers for the moment, the 4 set bonus of Skyshatter is 70 AP for 12 seconds every time you use SS. Not hit with it, but use it. So there is no reason you can't keep this up. Resulting in +70AEP. The 2 piece bonus is a bit more difficult to work out the AP equivalent. A mana cost reduction on Shocks hardly seems huge. However since Shocks for many shaman equal 10% of their total dmg, it's hardly something to ignore.

So I agree with your helm choice. I stated I intended to go Cursed Vision myself. That leaves the BP, the Legs, and the Shoulders.

By your numbers:
Shoulders: This is a AEP loss of 1.1
BP: This is an AEP loss of 69.5
Legs: This is an AEP loss of 29.9

This is a net loss of 100.5 AEP to select Skyshatter armor for these 3 slots over the ideal top end item. However this is no way adds in the Tier bonuses. The 4 set alone adds in 70 AEP dropping the loss to 30.5 AEP. And then that leaves a comparison of 10% mana reduction on Shocks versus 30.5 AEP. Which I wouldn't begin to know the math formula to say which is better. However I would easily say that 10% mana reduction off of Shocks is easily comprable to 30 AP.

Going for the shoulders and the gloves of Skyshatter is a very solid way to go. Ignoring the helm, that leaves two very reasonable slots to go for T6 still over a unique item. Adding in the fact that it is much more reliable and probable that a T6 will drop over a specific unique item, it adds more weight into first picks for item slots in my opinion.

I have to say I do not see how Cursed Vision, Midnight Chestguard and Bow-stitched Leggings are the clear winners by any stretch of the word.
Strength has an AEP value of 2.2. It's the same for all shaman. As far as gem choices, I use +5 Strength/+5 Crit Rating for yellow sockets, +5 Strength/+7 Stamina for blue sockets, and +10 Strength for red sockets.

Anyway, your comparison does not take into account the difference between Skyshatter Grips and Fists of Mukoa. They are not equal. Here is what the comparison looks like based off of my AEP values:

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator - 222.5
Midnight Chestguard - 353.5
Fists of Mukoa - 208.3
Bow-stitched Leggings - 303.5

Total AEP - 1087.8

Skyshatter Pauldrons 221.4
Skyshatter Tunic - 284
Skyshatter Grips - 201.7
Skyshatter Pants - 273.6
4 Piece Set Bonus - 70

Total AEP - 1050.7

A total difference of 37.1 AEP.

A 10% reduction to the mana cost of my shock spells is not worth more to me than 37.1 AEP. I do not assign that set bonus any value at all. I never run out of mana. For me, at least, this set bonus literally does nothing of any value. It will be even more meaningless after patch 2.3(unless they change it, which is very possible).

Another important factor to consider is eventually we will be upgrading our loot in the Sunwell Plateau. Once we upgrade one of our four pieces of T6 we are going to lose that set bonus. The non-T6 route will have a much smoother transition because it's not relying on a set bonus to make up for inferior stat allocation.
#3631SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ruga
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Another important factor to consider is eventually we will be upgrading our loot in the Sunwell Plateau. Once we upgrade one of our four pieces of T6 we are going to lose that set bonus. The non-T6 route will have a much smoother transition because it's not relying on a set bonus to make up for inferior stat allocation.
Yeah, I have to agree with you there.
It's nice that you actually have the choice if you either want to go set or random epics, but here you don't really have one. I personally hope that they'll actually attempt to juggle around some of the T6 stats so it gets at least equal, if not a tad better then the current random items.
#3632SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
So, T6 still has the mp5. Its time to remember them again, how useless it is, especially now with Elemental Focus.
I already made threads in the british and german boards, but I don't have access to the US boards, so somebody should open a thread there and we should keep pushing it:

WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Enhancement Shaman, still Mp5 on T6
WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Enhancement Shaman, still Mp5 on T6

They removed spelldam from T4/T5 after we complained and they removed the dodge rating from rogue shoulders, after they whined. So my hope is, that it works again.
#3633SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Is the 2 piece set bonus the same?
#3634SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
The new Stonebreaker Totem may not be hot for someone in BT/SSC I'll admit, but its sure a lot better than the old -mana cost of Stormstrike totem, and is a nice filler if someone has bad RNG luck on the Astral Winds totem. Its at least giving us options, which is more than we had before.

On the other hand I notice that ferals are getting 65 agility from spamming mangle which is a bit depressing.

I would suggest that people log onto the PTR, and give a feedback on that Totem - maybe say that it should be changed to "Windfury attacks have a chance to grant extra AP" instead.

Also I'm looking at the new heroic badge items, these are some very nice leather items that shaman coming out of KZ or who had bad luck in T5 content will be able to use.

Last edited by Malan : 10/12/07 at 9:41 AM.
#3635SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ruga
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Is the 2 piece set bonus the same?
They didn't write anything about it in the patchnotes and I haven't seeen anything here since the PTR went live, so my guess is that it's still the same set as it is now (-10% shock mana as 2set and 70 ap per SS as 4set.).
#3636SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Engyu
About Yo!'s Sim and AEP, there is something I do not get. I ran three 10 000hours simulation (without 2.3 patch talents) and got this AEP values (mean values from the three simulations):
AP: 1
Crit: 1.65
Hit: 1.29
Haste: 1.23
Armor Penetration: 0.21
Strengh: 2
Agi: 1.46

As agility gives crit rating (a bit more than 1 for 1), why AEP for Agi is lower than AEP for Crit?
#3637SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Agility gives less crit per point than Crit Rating does.
#3638SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Engyu
Oki, my mistake

Thank you
#3639SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by Malan
The new Stonebreaker Totem may not be hot for someone in BT/SSC I'll admit, but its sure a lot better than the old -mana cost of Stormstrike totem, and is a nice filler if someone has bad RNG luck on the Astral Winds totem. Its at least giving us options, which is more than we had before.

On the other hand I notice that ferals are getting 65 agility from spamming mangle which is a bit depressing.

I would suggest that people log onto the PTR, and give a feedback on that Totem - maybe say that it should be changed to "Windfury attacks have a chance to grant extra AP" instead.

Also I'm looking at the new heroic badge items, these are some very nice leather items that shaman coming out of KZ or who had bad luck in T5 content will be able to use.
That totem is in the same boat as the Idol, as Mangle is used once every 13-15 seconds, depending on the druid's DPS cycle. If they have the same proc rate, this totem is actually not worse than the idol
#3640SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ fangar
To Malan's point. A lot of the power druid DPSers (powershifting and what not) try to minimize the number of mangles they cast because it hurts their DPS and often assign a mangle bitch to someone else to keep it up for them so they can optimize.

Way way off topic, but I wonder how this will change the cycle for them now (if it changes at all).
#3641SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
You can forget about any decent upgrade for astrall winds

#3642SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Anyone on the PTR verified if SR is dispellable yet? The CMs didn't seem to know if it would be or not.

@ Aegospotami - your first post just sounded like you expected someone to be at your beck and call for answers. Your second post was just trolling, and has been reported as such. I don't claim to be an expert, nobody here claims this thread to be the "bible" of anything. Take your rhetoric elsewhere and learn some manners.
#3643SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Mextro
You can forget about any decent upgrade for astral winds
I think people are considering the '110 attack power "chance" on shocks' relic that comes from heroic badges. If the proc rate is anything decent (50%ish) it should be a viable relic rather than something that can be easily dismissed.
#3644SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Krish
Originally Posted by Mextro
You can forget about any decent upgrade for astrall winds
That's the new PvP totem. There is also one from heroic badges that is a chance on casting a shock spell to increase AP by 110 for 10 seconds. Whether or not this is better than the Totem of the Astral Winds is entirely dependent upon the proc rate and possible internal CD. There's so much I wanted to test on the PTR, and I'm hoping someone here has been able to get onto them.

If you are able to get onto the PTR, a few things that I'd love to see tested:

1) The uptime of the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision (even some simple blasted lands testing should give us a good starting point).

2) The uptime of the new relic slot item mentioned above.

3) The exact mana returned by each globe of water shield.

4) The amount of time that the buff from Shamanistic Focus (reduces the cost of your next shock spell by 60% after landing a melee critical strike) lasts.

5) Is Shamanistic Rage dispellable?

6) What are the new stats on the Belt of One Hundred Deaths?

7) Has the orc racial for axe weapon skill been changed?

There must be other simple-to-test things others would like to know as well, but those five would give us some much-needed clarification.

Last edited by Krish : 10/12/07 at 11:05 AM.
#3645SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by everwatch
Question to Nemaa: Could you list the stats you plugged in for the Sim please? Such as how much crit, haste, hit, AP, etc was used? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. I personally used FT for a while a long time ago and it made me sad just because I hated not seeing the WF numbers going by. But if there are scenarios where FT performs in the same playing field as WF (and I'd *personally* consider within 100dps the same playing field when you're over 1k dps) I'd like to be aware of it.
My values were the following:
1700 AP (including kings bonus str)
2.35% haste
34.5% crit (including kings bonus agi)
16.55% hit
+5 weapon skill on both hands
On the buffs tab I lowered the mob's resistance to 50.

If someone has the best fast weapon in the game (Swiftsteel Bludgeon) for flametongue, he can have the best slowest weapon in the game for windfury for more damage. Sebudai mentioned that the 30%AP -> Spell damage in Yo's sim might be bugged so it's early to consider my results to be accurate. I was just curious how bad will my dps be after 2.3 according to the sim. Soon we can have ingame tests.
#3646SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I think people are considering the '110 attack power "chance" on shocks' relic that comes from heroic badges. If the proc rate is anything decent (50%ish) it should be a viable relic rather than something that can be easily dismissed.
You can probably count on some internal cooldown of 45 seconds, untill then, i won't change my mind switching.

I can't test anything on my shaman, since i can't copy him

oh and, the badges of justices are now usable for pvp items aswell, so i don't think i made a wrong statement at all, considering it should be pvp/pve on both vendors then.
#3647SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Mextro
You can probably count on some internal cooldown of 45 seconds, untill then, i won't change my mind switching.
if there was any sort of cooldown, the line between it being better than astral winds would get VERY small. The relic would have no right being purple. I double it would even be useful with a proc rate under like 20% or much of a cooldown. It shouldn't take a ton of math to prove an epic is better than a blue (although that appears to only be my opinion, not blizzard's).

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/12/07 at 11:20 AM. Reason: I fail with 4 hours of sleep.
#3648SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
According to a post in the 2.3 PTR changes thread, Orc Racial was changed to 5% crit (I have not verified this) and Belt of One Hundred Deaths is just going to be a 1:1 swap of Weapon Skill to Weapon Expertise.
#3649SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jyca
Stumbled across a link(which ive now lost, typical) where the stonebreaker proc had been recorded on wowhead and was stated as a 50% chance to proc. Been a few posts on the official forums which claim a procrate of 50% but nothing to back em up.

Doubt there has been enough testing to find out whether it has a cooldown or not, when you consider that shocks have their own cooldown and that it's not a particularly large amount of AP it wouldn't make sense for it to have a hidden cooldown.
#3650SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I think people are considering the '110 attack power "chance" on shocks' relic that comes from heroic badges. If the proc rate is anything decent (50%ish) it should be a viable relic rather than something that can be easily dismissed.
Astral Winds: 160 more AP (effectively) every time WF procs, which is 10-15 times a minute.
At 12 PPM, that's 1920 bonus AP per minute
vs
110 AP on shock trinket that has a maximum PPM chance of 10 for most builds, and an optimistic probable uptime of 30% or so at 2 PPM. That'd put it at 2200 bonus AP per minute, but it's reliant on shock spam which is not as effective as twisting for most people.

Keep farming mana tombs.
#3651SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
if there was any sort of cooldown, the line between it being better than astral winds would get VERY small. The relic would have no right being purple. I double it would even be useful with a proc rate under like 20% or much of a cooldown. It shouldn't take a ton of math to prove an epic is better than a blue (although that appears to only be my opinion, not blizzard's).
They haven't removed the mp5 on enhancement tiers so i don't i think this relic will be any better then astrall winds.
#3652SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by xereva
Uhm, isn't the Astral Winds totem 80 AP on each Windfury Weapon attack, while the 110 AP is on ALL attacks?
It is, but if that thing is up for more than 15 seconds per minute when you lay on full shock spam I'll be, well, shocked. I'm guessing 1 PPM, which makes it pretty much terrible for anyone that does totem twisting.
#3653SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
although that 160 number you just quoted makes me wonder if the 40% effect to WF attacks from talents affects that 80 ap per weapon number.

Originally Posted by Jyca
Stumbled across a link(which ive now lost, typical) where the stonebreaker proc had been recorded on wowhead and was stated as a 50% chance to proc.
here most likely. 50% proc rate + no cooldown is a passive 55/66 ap (depending on spec: 60/12 (2 shocks to make a proc)*110/10 (ap/duration of proc)
reverberation 60/10*110/10) I think that is the correct math.

I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.

sign me up for some of that.
#3654SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I think in both of those cases the new relic would be clearly superior since it does not appear from the wowhead link to be on a PPM (ppm effects don't have proc chances.
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
#3655SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Wow that arena totem is amazingly bad. The only use I can think of for any of them is that they should provide junk buffs to fend off purge spam.

I am also truly disappointed in the new badge rewards. They stated clearly that the intent of the new rewards was to fill itemization holes for offspecs. Looking at those rewards every piece we would truly crave is plate and all of the mail is hunter/resto/elemental loot. I feel bad for the guys in smaller guilds that were banking on these to gear up.
#3656SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
There's not much melee mail, but there are at least a few good pieces (they do have int on them, sadly) and there's a ton of feral loot to steal.
#3657SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
The feral items though have increased armor, so even those are reduced in item points available for normal stats.
#3658SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Galeyra
Originally Posted by Malan
According to a post in the 2.3 PTR changes thread, Orc Racial was changed to 5% crit (I have not verified this) and Belt of One Hundred Deaths is just going to be a 1:1 swap of Weapon Skill to Weapon Expertise.
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
#3659SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Malan
If and only if you are using shocks on every cooldown. If you are twisting or holding off shocks, less benefit.
Yes, good point, a disclaimer would have to be made that this is under best case (for the shaman's personal dps) circumstances. Though, with the changes to shock mana costs (through the crit talent) and my change in guilds depriving me of a dedicated paladin for JoW I have moved back to doing full time shock rotations. But the math still holds true if the shaman is just shocking.
#3660SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Galeyra
Orc Racial is just 1% crit with axes and twohanded axes, but your right about the belt.
Ouch, that's a lot worse.
#3661SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
berg
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but the majority of it plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get free armor that they do not use and we get nothing.

Last edited by berg : 10/12/07 at 12:20 PM.
#3662SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by berg
I am probably a little more annoyed than I should be but the itemization is really starting to grind on me.

It is easy to think 'There should not be melee mail cause only one person would use it.'
In reality this is simply unfair to us and I think we should be making more of an issue out of it.

For example
Rogues and Hunters both got amazing T6 and random drops to back them up.
Ferals got random pieces crafted to their needs
Moonkin got random pieces crafted to their needs
Elemental got random pieces crafted to their needs
Plate with healing on it etc etc.

There is tons of amazing loot for us out there, but it is all plate. I feel that atleast half of those drops should be mail.

Good gear designed for us would NOT be exclusive to us. It could be shared amongst Enhance shaman, Ret pallies and Arms/Fury warriors. Instead of all of those classes sharing loot that is perfect for them, they get some free armor and we get nothing.
First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.
#3663SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
I am not asking for gear to say "Classes:Shaman" on it.

My point is that fury/ret could use the same gear optimally if it were mail. They dont need that AC, it is just icing to them. They would never elect to tank in that gear over real tanking items.

They do not need to dilute anything. Our dream itemization already exists, we just cannot wear it.
#3664SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Astral Winds: 160 more AP (effectively) every time WF procs, which is 10-15 times a minute.
At 12 PPM, that's 1920 bonus AP per minute
vs
110 AP on shock trinket that has a maximum PPM chance of 10 for most builds, and an optimistic probable uptime of 30% or so at 2 PPM. That'd put it at 2200 bonus AP per minute, but it's reliant on shock spam which is not as effective as twisting for most people.

Keep farming mana tombs.
How the heck are you arriving at these numbers?
If I adopt your method of tabulating things in terms of AP-swing/minute units I can arrive at your figure of 1920 for Astral Winds.

Assuming a 33% uptime for the shock totem I would come out with:
4 Windfury procs - 8 swings at 110 AP each. 880 AP
Presume 50% flurry uptime, and dual 2.6 speed weapons, is 8.7 swings with both offhand and mainhand. Accounting for the offhand penalty - 13.05 swings, or 1435.5 AP.
2 Stormstrikes in that 20 second uptime, for an additional 3 swings (counting the offhand as .5 again). 330 AP.
---------
Total AP contribution 2645 AP-swing/minute.
Not taken into account - Improved Windfury boosting the AP contribution of Windfury attacks higher
- Different miss chances for autoattack vs stormstrike/windfury
- Glancing blows

And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
#3665SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I could test all the questions asked on the previous page and even check out the new Totem's uptime... but yeah, Character Copy is down. -.-
#3666SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Hamilburg
...If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
Take it into consideration that it can be possible that lower rank shocks have lower procrate for the relic (or no procrate at all)
#3667SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Affect of Orc Racial change on Weapon Choice

With the new Changes to the Orc Axe Racial, will the Black Planar Edge, be less desirable then the Dragonmaw? 3% +Hit was a significant stat, but will 1% Crit not be significant enough to tip the scales in it's favor?
#3668SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by david0925
First of all, I would agree with you about the lack of proper enhancement shaman gear. However, I am strongly opposed to diluting the loot table to adding items that only 1 spec of a specific class can use optimally.

As a Druid main, I can tell you that there are no proper feral itemization in T6 content, with the exception of the set pieces. The fix they did was changing our talent from 20% strength in cat form, to 10% AP in cat form. While there are still a lot of whiners out there about lack of items optimzed to ferals, it is much better that, with this design, Druids can comfortably share drops with Rogues without gimping themselves.

Similarly, it would be nice if mp5 is somehow incorporated into the talents (for example, 100% of mp5 is converted to crit rating. Don't argue with how good/bad this actually is please, being just an example), instead of trying to cater to the needs of current enhancement shaman and further diluting the loot table.

Also in this patch, Retdin's mechanics changed so they can easily share warrior plates. I would hope they change moonkin's armor benefits to maybe 200%, but give them the ability to wear mail, so that they can share drops with elemental shaman.
It would be a start if at last our own special T6 set had the right stats. But even this is packed with useless mp5 and too much int.
#3669SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Peterbilt
Question on Weapons

My apologies for interrupting the patch info discussion, and I apologize in advance if this question has been answered previously. I've scoured all 140+ pages of the thread, but my head's still spinning from the info. ; )

It's been stated that Dragonstrike is one of the 'best' MH weapons for enhancement. It's also been stated that the Merciless Gladiator <whatever> is the best OH. I'm currently wielding Dragonmaw and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver, and before I invest in Nether Vortexes for the upgrade, I need some advice.

My thoughts;

Dragonstrike is .10 slower than the Merciless Gladiator OH, thus the OH is receiving the first chance for WF procs after the hidden CD.

My guild is in Black Temple, so I have access to Rising Tide. As a matter of fact, no one else wants it, so it's mine when it drops.

Would it be more advisable to go for Rising Tide as MH, and Merciless Gladiator in OH? The speeds would mean the MH would catch most of my WF procs after CD. Or does Dragonstrike, and the haste, have an inherent AEP value I'm not seeing that makes it more DPS even with the speed offset? Simply put, Dragonstrike or Rising Tide? (Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )
#3670SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Yo's Simulator would be your best answer, figure out the stat difference for each option and then plug them into the sim on a long time span, run each scenario several times, then compare the results.
#3671SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
@Peterbilt you prolly want to just spend some time with Yo!'s simulator before people start yelling at you

edit: Malan = ninja
#3672SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Peterbilt
lol ok, I will.

I get shaky and nauseous when people yell at me. = (

BBL after trying Yo's!
#3673SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Peterbilt
(Syphon isn't an option right now, since there's a long line of rogues in front of me waiting for it. = / )
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.

Originally Posted by Hamburg
And for not working with totem twisting - A pure shocker can get off 10 shocks per minute. A totem twister can get off... what... 80% of that (37.5% of time taken by twisting, presuming an 8 second cycle. 15% of time taken by Stormstrike. Shocking every cooldown would be 25% which would still be allowed). At 80% of optimal uptime (caused by cooldowns landing on top of each other and Earthshock being low priority on the totempole), the new totem still would seem competitive if you presume that 30% uptime. If mana is an issue, Rank 1 Earth Shock is still in your spellbook.
Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.
#3674SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
If anyone out there knows how to write firefox plugins, I would *love* an AEP calculator that would store my personal AEP values, and then allow me to input an item link from wowhead or something, and calculate the AEP value for me.
#3675SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by rava
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.



Currently? <50% of someone who shocks on cd. I can tell you've never played with totems before and think that mana and gcd's grow on trees. Shamanistic focus will play in for like another 15-20% of available shocks with GCD being your main hinderance(4 front loaded globals = no second shock per rotation window). You could mix up the rotation a little and put a shock earlier on which would just delay your actual benefit to a raid, I guess.

This is stuff I'd really like to test myself rather than read speculation or 2nd hand info from terrible WoW forums, but character copy is so amazing.
http://elitistjerks.com/505038-post3526.html

80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime.
Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem.

Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise.
#3676SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Beroll
Originally Posted by Krish
That's the new PvP totem. There is also one from heroic badges that is a chance on casting a shock spell to increase AP by 110 for 10 seconds. Whether or not this is better than the Totem of the Astral Winds is entirely dependent upon the proc rate and possible internal CD. There's so much I wanted to test on the PTR, and I'm hoping someone here has been able to get onto them.

If you are able to get onto the PTR, a few things that I'd love to see tested:

1) The uptime of the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision (even some simple blasted lands testing should give us a good starting point).

2) The uptime of the new relic slot item mentioned above.

3) The exact mana returned by each globe of water shield.

4) The amount of time that the buff from Shamanistic Focus (reduces the cost of your next shock spell by 60% after landing a melee critical strike) lasts.

5) Is Shamanistic Rage dispellable?

6) What are the new stats on the Belt of One Hundred Deaths?

7) Has the orc racial for axe weapon skill been changed?

There must be other simple-to-test things others would like to know as well, but those five would give us some much-needed clarification.
1) Not horrible like I wrote first but 50% chance to proc seems to be realistic now
2) -
3) 204
4) 15s
5) It's Magic so I think yes
6) -
7) 1% Crit to Axes...

Last edited by Beroll : 10/12/07 at 2:31 PM.
#3677SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
15 second Shamanistic Focus buff? Well that'll be 100% uptime then.
#3678SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beroll
Originally Posted by Malan
15 second Shamanistic Focus buff? Well that'll be 100% uptime then.
It is and the "ding" sound everytime it procs makes me mad atm ;x
#3679SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3everwatch
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Strength has an AEP value of 2.2. It's the same for all shaman. As far as gem choices, I use +5 Strength/+5 Crit Rating for yellow sockets, +5 Strength/+7 Stamina for blue sockets, and +10 Strength for red sockets.

Anyway, your comparison does not take into account the difference between Skyshatter Grips and Fists of Mukoa. They are not equal. Here is what the comparison looks like based off of my AEP values:

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator - 222.5
Midnight Chestguard - 353.5
Fists of Mukoa - 208.3
Bow-stitched Leggings - 303.5

Total AEP - 1087.8

Skyshatter Pauldrons 221.4
Skyshatter Tunic - 284
Skyshatter Grips - 201.7
Skyshatter Pants - 273.6
4 Piece Set Bonus - 70

Total AEP - 1050.7

A total difference of 37.1 AEP.

A 10% reduction to the mana cost of my shock spells is not worth more to me than 37.1 AEP. I do not assign that set bonus any value at all. I never run out of mana. For me, at least, this set bonus literally does nothing of any value. It will be even more meaningless after patch 2.3(unless they change it, which is very possible).

Another important factor to consider is eventually we will be upgrading our loot in the Sunwell Plateau. Once we upgrade one of our four pieces of T6 we are going to lose that set bonus. The non-T6 route will have a much smoother transition because it's not relying on a set bonus to make up for inferior stat allocation.
Maybe when my gear is at your point mana won't be an issue for me. However totem twisting, shocking, and SS runs me OOM. So I guess I look at if differently. However your point that the mana changes in 2.3 will make it moot anyways is quite accurate, nor can I argue the new instace/loot transition. A 37 AEP loss doesn't bug me much however to be honest with you when it means I can get my loot "now". There's still items I have never even seen drop once ever in all the months of raiding 5-6 nights a week on average in Kara, SSC, and TK. Items that my guild has never seen drop once even when it was an "off night" for me. That kind of luck makes me just lean towards Tier armor when possible to avoid waiting who knows how long for that one item to drop.

One question about your AEP.

I've noticed that a lot of people find that their numbers on the Sims show very varying results for how important each stat is. Yo's studies and findings have changed a lot of numbers for high end shaman, and I've yet to see anyone refute his results to a significant degree with support. But as such, I've not seen any changes to the stat weights listed in the OP by Malan. Before I started using Yo's Sim I just wanted to ask if there was any line of reasoning to show his Sim as inaccurate? Note that the main reason I ask is Malan's OP stat weights do not reflect differing AEP values found by better geared Shaman or make a significant mention that better geared shaman will find AEP weights to change as certain stats reach a "plateu" state.
#3680SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
everwatch - I've been lazy and have not put together an "early shaman AEP" and "late T6 shaman AEP" numbers.

I did add a line (I think I did?) about how those numbers are averages for mid-geared shaman and that anyone differing wildly in gear levels would do best to use the Sim to create their own. I think we need an agreed upon average set of values though, otherwise discussion is meaningless as everyone would have a totally different viewpoint of an item.

[e] Yah here is what I put in the OP -
Note that these values were produced using an average geared shaman in the SSC/TK gear range. It is advised that if you fall far below or far above that value of gear, that you use Yo's Simulator (linked near the bottom) to determine your own, individualized AEP values.
#3681SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3everwatch
Originally Posted by Malan
everwatch - I've been lazy and have not put together an "early shaman AEP" and "late T6 shaman AEP" numbers.

I did add a line (I think I did?) about how those numbers are averages for mid-geared shaman and that anyone differing wildly in gear levels would do best to use the Sim to create their own. I think we need an agreed upon average set of values though, otherwise discussion is meaningless as everyone would have a totally different viewpoint of an item.

[e] Yah here is what I put in the OP -
Wow, I'm sorry. I even just went back and re-read the entire OP. I missed it. I try to avoid doing that. My bad. Guess I'll have to stop being lazy finally and download Yo's sim. Sigh. I got my T6 gloves now (which I'm perfectly happy with), but have been passing on all other of the Tier slot items because I have not been sure what items to take. Thanks for all of the input and advice.
#3682SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
I installed the WoWEquip addon the other day, I'll try to hop in tonight and get some stat values for a low-end gear shaman and generate some AEP values for it.
#3683SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beroll
Just finished doing 103 Stormstrikes on the PTR. The Power Surge buff was up 50 times.
#3684SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
So new value of the Ashtongue would be ... 275 * 10 * 0.5/10 = 137.5
Less value than DST and Madness of the Betrayer now.
#3685SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Krish
Stonebreaker's Totem has a 50% chance to proc, according to the spell effect linked at wowhead. Elemental Strength - Spells - World of Warcraft

I haven't been able to decipher if it's a 50% chance on cast or on hit. With a duration of 10 seconds, if you're shocking about every 6 seconds, I would think this would be a clear improvement over Totem of the Astral Winds. I'd love to do some math on it so that we could do a realistic AEP comparison, but I can't come up with the formula yet.

As for the orc racial, the loss of that +5 skill meant a drop of 33 DPS according to Yo's sim, not counting the .2% crit I should have subtracted. The addition of 1% crit was worth 13 DPS, though it'll really be closer to 10 as it's only a .8% gain when you factor in the .2% lost from the weapon skill reduction. Overall, this means about a 23 DPS nerf. Couple that with what will be about another 25 DPS lost from the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision nerf, and I question whether 2.3 will even be a buff to my DPS. I had looked forward to this patch and the talent changes, now I can't help but feel let down.
#3686SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Krish
Stonebreaker's Totem has a 50% chance to proc, according to the spell effect linked at wowhead. Elemental Strength - Spells - World of Warcraft
It's almost certainly going to have an internal cooldown with that high of a proc rate, or you're talking about a more or less permanent 80-ish AP for shock spam.
#3687SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Hamilburg
http://elitistjerks.com/505038-post3526.html

80% shocks, 100% windfury uptime, 65% GoA/TA uptime.
Then it becomes a measure of 20% GoA uptime vs the shocks and benefit possible benefit from the new totem.

Certainly the new totem is aimed at shocking, it'd be silly to suggest otherwise.
Except..... that's not how you totem twist, at all.
#3688SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Take away from Ashtongue and give back with that totem slot? Kinda like with LB cast time and LO changes. Except this time they can refer to Ashtongue change as a fix (which it was) meaning far less serious outcry. Thats the pessimistic explanation i suppose.
#3689SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Nemaa
Malan, how about making the trinket section more easy to read and easy to substitue own AEP values? I had to recalculate the trinket's values based my own AEP values and it was a bit hard. This is what I'm thinking about:

VIII.11 Itemization - Trinkets
Trinket gains are converted using the AEP formulas above in the itemization stat weights from above, and listed as greatest AEP at the top.Madness of the Betrayer was miscalculated to 143.6, it's actually 142 using 0.25 as Armor Penetration and 1.4 as Hit Rating.

By the way my values for the trinkets are:
Dragonspine Trophy: 205.75
Madness of the Betrayer 163.6
Tsunami Talisman 151.18
Ashtongue Talisman of Vision 137.5

An other note:
"VIII.2 Itemization – Using Stat Weights[" has an unnecessary "["

Last edited by Nemaa : 10/12/07 at 4:52 PM.
#3690SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Romulo's Poison Vial has exact values for the nature damage proc (222-332). Wowhead comments say 1.4-1.6 PPM or 2-3.5% proc chance per hit. Using 1.5 PPM it gives 6.925 (( 222 + 332 ) / 2 * 1.5 / 60 ) more DPS.
#3691SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Ok I'll paste that in.

I just did some wowEquip itemizing in-game and came up with an "early raid shaman" item set for an enhance shaman who has done some heroics, has one or two badge items and heroic loots, but mostly in quest/instance gear.
Stats resulted in -
890 AP
14.5% Crit + 5% Talents
12.9% Hit (204 rating) + 9% talents (Amazing how early gear gives way way more hit rating)
MH - 2.7 speed, 71.7 DPS
OH - 2.6 speed, 71.7 DPS

This was wearing a *lot* of leather, only like 2 mail items.

Running it at 20,000 hours in the sim now.

Last edited by Malan : 10/12/07 at 4:59 PM.
#3692SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Originally Posted by Atren
Take away from Ashtongue and give back with that totem slot? Kinda like with LB cast time and LO changes. Except this time they can refer to Ashtongue change as a fix (which it was) meaning far less serious outcry. Thats the pessimistic explanation i suppose.
You might want to look over those elemental changes. Be happy for our elemental friends they got one of the largest buffs in the history of wow with this patch

The ashtongue nerf is regrettable but expected. We still come out ahead in this patch.
#3693SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Umm, not to de-rail here, but as far as I can tell, elemental received a buff at the low end (low crit and low +damage) but a nerf at the high end (high crit and high +damage). If there are any elemental shamans raiding T6 content they aren't happy about these changes.
#3694SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
I consider any patch without a WF nerf a win.

By the way, I heard spirit weapons wasn't correctly reducing threat on yellow attacks. Is this still true or was it ninja fixed?

Edit@rob: The LO change is a huge buff to elemental raiding.
#3695SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Like I said you may want to look into those changes. The new mechanic is different than it was presented as for them. In end game gear it equates to a decent dps gain (better than decent if you have a capacitor) and it more or less removed any mana/aggro concerns from the class, not even to mention the new arena buff hehe. They made out like bandits.

I'll stop posting about our elemental cousins now I promise.
#3696SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Originally Posted by rava
Except..... that's not how you totem twist, at all.
Correction. It's not how *you* totem twist, but the author of the cited post uses it (and apparently to some success). Where you obtain (at best) 85% uptime on your non-WF totem, he instead has opted to go for a 65% uptime AND shock. Toe-may-toe, toe-mah-toe.
#3697SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Guys dont forged that Shocks have quite a big resist rate vs Bosses (draenei racial helps but...).
Also been crawling the forums and found this nice Z'A offhand:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/599...7164521jp7.jpg
#3698SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Chuckles, that pic was loading several seconds (upto 10) and all that time i was chanting 2.6, 2.6

Resist rate will be around 14% i believe if you have 3% spell hit from resto. Still it is viable option if it does not have internal cooldown.
#3699SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Yo's sim is misbehaving badly for me. Can someone plug in the numbers from above and tell me the AEP?

Do not use Kings, Might or LotP or flasks, assume Battle Shout, AP Food, and a Strength elixir.
#3700SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Neither of you are right on dealing with shaman buffs for elemental. It's not a huge buff, but its not a nerf. At T6 level of gear the changes work out for about a 30 dmg buff on LB. Which works out to like a 15 dps buff. It's nice, but nothing groundbreaking. We get less threat and more regen too, but that matters more for AOE fights and really not too much for boss fights other than the Void Reaver gimmick fights. After looking at these changes, it looks pretty similar. Both types of dps shamans are getting slight buffs in dmg and bigger buffs in mana/threat issues.
#3701SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Stop talking about Elemental. They have their own thread.
#3702SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Rob
Umm, not to de-rail here, but as far as I can tell, elemental received a buff at the low end (low crit and low +damage) but a nerf at the high end (high crit and high +damage). If there are any elemental shamans raiding T6 content they aren't happy about these changes.
No, it's a straight buff, because only the basedamage of LO was halved. So with 1200 spelldam and normal lightningbolts hitting for 1530 avg, you have a 20% chance of another bolt with 1215 avg damage. And LO can proc from itself, without further halfing the dam. Elemental shamans are doing a small bit more dam then before, with lower mana costs, less threat and a better scaling with spellhaste.
#3703SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
This is not the Elemental Shaman Thread
#3704SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Doctah
Originally Posted by Malan
Yo's sim is misbehaving badly for me. Can someone plug in the numbers from above and tell me the AEP?

Do not use Kings, Might or LotP or flasks, assume Battle Shout, AP Food, and a Strength elixir.
AP = 1
Crit = 1.61
Hit = 1.17
Haste = 1.14
Armor pen = 0.19
Str = 2
Agi = 1.43
#3705SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
darkInertia
The new totem [Stonebreaker's Totem] is higher than 55 effective AP, since the duration is greater than shock cooldown, there can be a period of overlap where even if your most recent shock did not proc, if your second-most recent shock did proc you will have 4 seconds of the buff and 2 seconds of no buff, before your cooldown is up.

Probably of having the buff, for any specific point in time, equals:

[probably that your most recent shock will proc the buff] + [probably that your second most recent shock will proc the buff, and that you are in the overlaping duration]
0.50 + 0.50 * (10-6)/6 = 0.83 * 110 AP = 91.7 AP

Now, this is the best case scenario; it doesn't account for spell resists or cases when you aren't able to shock every 6 seconds

edit: this also assumes there is no hidden cooldown on the proc

Last edited by darkInertia : 10/12/07 at 6:38 PM.
#3706SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Thank you Doctah!

I'll add those to the post.
#3707SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Something I just want to clarify.

The fact that Armor Penetration numbers are so low is based on the fact that the actual amounts are large numbers as compared to base stat numbers, not because it's not that good, right?
#3708SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Right. You get like 100 armor penetration on an item.
#3709SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
one 'rating point' of item budget buys you 7 points of armor penetration.

I have always found this to be a weakness of the AEP system, it should be normalized to reflect the item cost. People look at these numbers and think AP is mediocre not realizing that 1 point of AP is half as expensive as 1 point of str/crit/etc
#3710SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by darkInertia
The new totem [Stonebreaker's Totem] is higher than 55 effective AP, since the duration is greater than shock cooldown, there can be a period of overlap where even if your most recent shock did not proc, if your second-most recent shock did proc you will have 4 seconds of the buff and 2 seconds of no buff, before your cooldown is up.

Probably of having the buff, for any specific point in time, equals:

[probably that your most recent shock will proc the buff] + [probably that your second most recent shock will proc the buff, and that you are in the overlaping duration]
0.50 + 0.50 * (10-6)/6 = 0.83 * 110 AP = 91.7 AP

Now, this is the best case scenario; it doesn't account for spell resists or cases when you aren't able to shock every 6 seconds
It seems that same idol for ferals can refresh itself, but can proc on mangle after that one, so probably there is some kind of hidden cd, but around 15 sec max. I'd bet its same on this relic.
#3711SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Berg I can add a note in there about that if you think that's an issue.

Is Yo's sim behaving badly for anyone else? Maybe its just on my mac, but I've tried using it now on 2 different browsers and it never finishes the sim, the java applet just goes blank.
#3712SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3darkInertia
Originally Posted by Kirion
It seems that same idol for ferals can refresh itself, but can proc on mangle after that one, so probably there is some kind of hidden cd, but around 15 sec max. I'd bet its same on this relic.
Yeah, i was just gonna edit my post to say that it assumes no hidden cooldown. I guess if you wanted to get a benefit our of both totems, you could swap the new totem for the windfury AP buff, every time you gain the stonebreaker's buff; and then have a 15 sec timer (if this is what the hidden cooldown is) run, and then swap back to stonebreaker.
#3713SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Doesn't swapping totems trigger the GCD?
#3714SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3darkInertia
Originally Posted by Malan
Doesn't swapping totems trigger the GCD?
I'll check when I get home. I used to swap healing totems pretty regularly depending on if i had to throw a chain heal, or HW, when I was resto, but I can't remember if it causes the GCD.
#3715SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
So I'm checking out the new season 3 weapons on MMO-Champion - World of Warcraft Guides and Raid Strategies.

Awesome weapons, nice stats...

103 dps one handers, 134 dps 2 handers, 247 spell damage caster weapons. The feral staff has over 1000 ap!


Except there is no 2.6 speed versions. I hope this is some joke.
#3716SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Malan
Doesn't swapping totems trigger the GCD?
Swapping a totem triggers the GCD, however it does not respect the GCD. So you can swap a totem while the GCD is still cooling-down, and swapping a totem will trigger the GCD. For this reason you can macro a spell like CH to begin casting, and then equip the totem of healing rains or what not.
#3717SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Oh nevermind, seems like I overreacted and there is in fact one. Thank god.
#3718SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
Decapitator is a 1-h, non-unique weapon on test.
No more tremendous gap between the heroic blues and Alar's fist weapon.
#3719SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
New trinket in ZA it seems: here

basically the tsunami talisman of the bloodlust broach.
AEP: 150 AEP = ( 90+ ( 360 * 20 / 120 ))
using the same values as bloodlust was calculated with in the OP

edit: Just checked where that ranked on our relic ranking section... its better than madness of the betrayer. There is something wrong with this.
#3720SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Mainhands that are now One Hands

Fool's Bane and Decapitator Have just been found to be changed from Main hand only to One Handers. OH items for we lower raiding shaman just got way better. Do these changes affect Yo's model?
#3721SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
@ChaguraED: why would they? in the end they are simply stats and dps numbers, I cant really see this changing Yo!'s sim.
#3722SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
@ChaguraED: why would they? in the end they are simply stats and dps numbers, I cant really see this changing Yo!'s sim.

Sorry, My Mistake. Was curious about the 'Use' function of decapitator in the offhand. would it suffer 50% decrease in damage? I suppose it's fairly low in importance compared to the fact it will be usable in the OH
#3723SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by rava
Tell your rogues to man up and use swords.
Sadly I'm in the same boat here. Every single one of our rogues (even those who already have a Dragonstrike crafted) want or have taken from me a Syphon. Our two fury warriors want it, too.

WTB some proof that Dragonstrike > Syphon, and that swords > maces in general.
#3724SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Neithan
Also been crawling the forums and found this nice Z'A offhand:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/599...7164521jp7.jpg
That's pretty nice. Additionally, I am told that the Decapitator and Fool's Bane are now non-Unique and One Hand instead of Main Hand. This will fill a LOT of the itemization holes we face.
#3725SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
New trinket in ZA it seems: here

basically the tsunami talisman of the bloodlust broach.
AEP: 150 AEP = ( 90+ ( 360 * 20 / 120 ))
using the same values as bloodlust was calculated with in the OP

edit: Just checked where that ranked on our relic ranking section... its better than madness of the betrayer. There is something wrong with this.
With my AEP values Madness of the Betrayer is 163.6 AEP because of higher value of hit rating and armor penetration. There's nothing wrong about this ZA trinket, it just gives different stats.
#3726SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
New trinket in ZA it seems: here

basically the tsunami talisman of the bloodlust broach.
AEP: 150 AEP = ( 90+ ( 360 * 20 / 120 ))
using the same values as bloodlust was calculated with in the OP

edit: Just checked where that ranked on our relic ranking section... its better than madness of the betrayer. There is something wrong with this.
With my AEP values Madness of the Betrayer is 163.6 AEP because of higher value of hit rating and armor penetration. There's nothing wrong about this ZA trinket, it just gives different stats.
#3727SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Ran the simulator again, this time without the "30% ap to spell damage" option turned on, and the results were much more consistent:
So is checking the "30% ap to spell damage option on causing problems? Is this a known issue with the simulator? Is this an issue at all or is it working correctly?
Yes, spell system part is working buggy atm
I am on my vacation far far away from my computer (that is a good thing) untill late of October, plan to fix things and introduce new options around Novemebr 1.
#3728SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Illian
Originally Posted by Neithan
Also been crawling the forums and found this nice Z'A offhand:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/599...7164521jp7.jpg

I saw a matching one named Rage somewhere but now I can't find the image.
#3729SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai


This?
#3730SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
falonub
With 2pc t6 my shocks cost 128 after a melee crit. 1 globe of water shield covers that cost. doing ZA now and my earth shock crits for 1900 D: With the exception of the ashtongue nurf, I am happy so far

Last edited by falonub : 10/12/07 at 8:52 PM.
#3731SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Xoya
Sadly I'm in the same boat here. Every single one of our rogues (even those who already have a Dragonstrike crafted) want or have taken from me a Syphon. Our two fury warriors want it, too.

WTB some proof that Dragonstrike > Syphon, and that swords > maces in general.
Unfortunately for you, better for the Rogues, Mace spec has been changed in 2.3 so 5/5 in maces gives you +5% crit damage, as well as 5% chance to stun.
#3732SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Well, as of yesterday, anyway. I am accepting of that. Mind you they've been wanting Syphon for 3+ weeks at this point. Wouldn't Dragonstrike -still- be better than Syphon though?
#3733SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
rava
I should look more before I invest time into making things!

Last edited by rava : 10/12/07 at 10:05 PM. Reason: I am bad
#3734SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I've always used PowerAuras to do that. If I'm in combat and do not have water or lightning shield on, a glowing and pulsing shield appears below my char until I recast.
#3735SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Imperator
Ok, I'm loving Enhancer Tristan, I'm just a little confused on how the AEP formula works.

I have the Skyguard Silver Cross which has +34 Crit Srike and then 50% to boost AP by 140 for 40 secs if you kill something. Enhancer values this at 68.0 AEP.

Compare that to the Abacus of Violent Odds which gives 64 AP with the haste increase when you pop it. Enhancer values it at 64 AEP.

So, is Enhancer just not taking into account the haste increase and thus valuing the Abacus less, or is it really just not as good?

Sorry, I've tried reading the thread as much as possible to find answers, just a lot of stuff to sort through.
#3736SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
That sounds like a bug Imperator.
#3737SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
"Use:" and "Equip: Chance to..." abilities aren't going to be handled by an addon that just adds up the stats.
#3738SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
tzenes
New ZA Trinket

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...uljin-down.jpg

Berserker's Call
unique
Trinket
90ap
Use: add 360 ap for 20 sec (2 min cooldown)

20 sec every 120 makes for 60aep +90 = 150 aep

it is not what I believed to be the best, it is however the second best.
edit: fixed math

Last edited by tzenes : 10/13/07 at 12:02 AM. Reason: math
#3739SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
90 + 360*20/120 = 90 + 60 = 150. Still very good, but your math is off.
#3740SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
Originally Posted by Rob
90 + 360*20/120 = 90 + 60 = 150. Still very good, but your math is off.
sorry, for some reason I decided dividing by 3 and deviding by 6 were the same thing
#3741SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Wowzers
Here are the changes for Belt of One-Hundred Deaths. Weapon skill ratings have been changed to 25 expertise rating.



http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...207_215016.jpg
#3742SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3GamingManiac
Totem Twisting PTR Hotness

Today me and a ret paladin decided to go goof around in Blasted Lands testing our DPS. I did one run with normal totems, SS, FS/ES blah blah. We reset, and I decided to see how sustainable totem twisting was without JoW (he gimped himself by just judging crusader for this test). With full mental quickness, shamanistic focus, and totemic focus, I was able to sustain a windfury/goa/stormstrike/flame shock rotation without going oom for 5 minutes (2 shamanistic rage periods) before we reset again.

Anyway, I'm not raiding for another 36h, and I have a decent set of gear, so if I can snag a healer, I'm willing to test stuff (not including the new totem, spent my badges on the cloak )

Edit: Name's "Gem" on the PvP server if you want to do something and prefer to PM me there.
#3743SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
So I was wanting to test the procrate and uptime on the new Totem, I've however never did any of these tests or so, so I was wondering how exactly DO you test it?

Do you just go to Blasted Lands, and start hitting on a mob and check the amount of procs / uptime via a /combatlog ?
#3744SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mulgero
Originally Posted by Rob
I am told that the Decapitator and Fool's Bane are now non-Unique and One Hand instead of Main Hand.
Just checked from wowhead and yes both are now one hand. I'm really really happy now as I have both, took fool's bane for the day devs change it. ^^
#3745SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Ok, first test real test I did 155 Earth Shocks on a Blasted Lands Servant. None resisted. The totem procced 61 times. For so far I saw, the totem did not refresh itself, so it definately has a hidden cooldown. I'd think 7-11 seconds, since it did most of the time proc on every other Shock.

61 * 100 / 155 = 39,35% = ~40% of all shocks procced one.

61 procs is 610 seconds of an extra 110 attack power. That's ~10 minutes of 110 extra attack power. WWS says I fought the mob for 17 minutes, but that is off I think. I'll do another test or two to compare.

Second test, 145 Earth Shocks, 53 procs. No refreshing of the buff, so further reinforces the 10 seconds cooldown theory.

53 * 100 / 155 = 34,19% = ~34% of all shocks procced a buff.

That's 530 seconds of 110 attack power. That's 8,8 minutes, so ~9 minutes of 110 attack power. I fought the mob for 19 minutes, remembered to time it manually this time. So that's ~47% uptime. Equals to about 55 passive attackpower, like previously thought in this thread. I'm not sure if I need to do further testing or not, but I'm pretty sure the numbers won't vary that much. I of course didn't do this on a high level mob, so I didn't find out if a resist procs or doesn't procs.

I went ahead and tested [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] a little too.

In the above test, I used 133 Stormstrikes. 58 of those procced Power Surge.

58 * 100 / 133 = 43,60% of all Stormstrikes procced Power Surge. Not sure what to think of it, but I guess the 50% is pretty accurate now.

Last edited by Illundai : 10/13/07 at 4:07 AM.
#3746SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
Originally Posted by Neithan
Guys dont forged that Shocks have quite a big resist rate vs Bosses (draenei racial helps but...).
Also been crawling the forums and found this nice Z'A offhand:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/599...7164521jp7.jpg
Am i wrong for thinking that's only for enhancement shamans? I mean, warriors need a quick offhand for rage, and rogues a fast offhand for combat potency
#3747SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hellcry
A fast offhand for a warrior has booth pros and cons. With WW hitting with booth weaponsI'd say it tips the scales infavour of slow ones,atleast if they are geared.

Stonebreaker totem has a 50% procrate according to the spell describtion. Guess the hidden cooldown will determine if its better then Totem of the astral winds or not.
#3748SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Mextro
Am i wrong for thinking that's only for enhancement shamans? I mean, warriors need a quick offhand for rage, and rogues a fast offhand for combat potency
Warriors don't care that much about offhand speed (though opinions differ on that point).

At the moment, the Mental Quickness talent doesn't work properly. It's supposed to give 30% of AP as spellpower, but instead it gives 30% of AP as healing, then a further 33% of that as spellpower. I think there's a conflict between that talent and the new free 33% of healing as spellpower change.

With ~1400 AP, I get 400 healing, and 100 spellpower.

New Water Shield is 203-204 mana per globe, basically a minimum of 50mp5(!) Damage is pretty much mana neutral now. I really wish I had this while leveling.

Oh, and Totem of the Thunderhead is extra 27 mana per globe.

Edit: I remember awhile ago, someone posted a modification of a FlurryUptime to track the uptime of their DST. If someone can find it/or the modification that'd help with testing the new Stonebreaker Totem (the buff is called Elemental Strength, I believe).
#3749SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
That'd be helpful yes, for my tests I did just now I ran a /combatlog and then used my WWS client to parse it locally on my computer.

By the way, maybe that Mental Quickness bug is just a bug with the Character Tab? My Earth Shocks were definately hitting harder, critting for 1900. And that was with just Stormstrike, so no Misery or whatever else.
#3750SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hellcry
Originally Posted by panny

Edit: I remember awhile ago, someone posted a modification of a FlurryUptime to track the uptime of their DST. If someone can find it/or the modification that'd help with testing the new Stonebreaker Totem (the buff is called Elemental Strength, I believe).
Yes it is.
#3751SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by rava
Cheers for this.

I forgot to take a /combatlog, but here are the results of my prelimary test for 5 minutes. While shocking every 5 seconds, I had a ~56% uptime, with a minimum of 10 seconds between each proc.

Also: it appears that Illundai is correct about the Mental Quickness bug being only associated with the Character Tab.

Edit: Okay, after about 10 minutes, my results were 60% uptime, fluctuating between 54% and 64%. Browsing the log, I don't see any procs occurring within 10 seconds of each other, so I'm guessing that this is the cooldown. I attempted to be very conservative with my GCDs, so that I was Shocking every five seconds.

Tentative results: 50% proc chance with 10 second cooldown. Theoretical uptime is 75% (50% + (50% * 50%)), which is off my observed 60% uptime. Possible reason is that I managed to time my Shocking so brilliantly that I was Shocking twice in the cooldown. Or, that the cooldown is actually more like 11 seconds (I got some procs within 11 seconds). Some testing with a six second cooldown shock would be nice to confirm, and I'll do some tomorrow if someone hasn't already.

WWS log here: Wow Web Stats

Last edited by panny : 10/13/07 at 6:30 AM.
#3752SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Weev
Fools Bane

Sorry - old info I missed in page 149. Please ignore
#3776SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Stigmata, droprate of Vortexes is really luck based these times. Sometimes we get 5 per whole clear of TK (excepting KT as these are guaranteed), sometimes we get 10.
Regarding melee haste, they should revert it back and I hope they will do it. Why there should be so much of haste on all Badge&ZA gear? (or am I too optimistic?)
#3777SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
5 sounds about the same as when last I entered, but as Ralene said, they are only just starting VR, so they would do alot less trash.
#3778SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Last time we did TK we got 3 >.> (including 2 from Kael!).
#3779SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3everwatch
Originally Posted by Malan
Berg I can add a note in there about that if you think that's an issue.

Is Yo's sim behaving badly for anyone else? Maybe its just on my mac, but I've tried using it now on 2 different browsers and it never finishes the sim, the java applet just goes blank.
Are you windowing in and out of WoW, or another graphics intensive program? I have no idea why, but if you do that Yo's sim craps out and does exactly what you just said. It can go all blank, freeze up the entire window, or cause the field area to take on a screen shot of whatever was there on the screen before. When I run his sim I either go afk, read, or surf the net until it finishes. I can't go into WoW while it's running.
#3780SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Yo's sim is not multithreaded, e.g. ui does not react while running the calculations.
If you're already running some highly cpu intensive program like wow (wow behaves badly with cpu usage) the sim might take ages to react etc.
#3781SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:

Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit.
Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction.

In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry.

Dodge reduction will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but fairly useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Mobs can dodge attacks from behind and weapon expertise is now a reasonable way to reduce these dodges. If weapon expertise is found to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, and if it adds to the chance to "Hit" rather than merely raising the hit cap, it should still be a good use of item budget for enhancement shamans. Additionally, items such as [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] with dagger rating now have merely expertise, so some gain can be had there.

As an example, let's assume that expertise works how we think it does (affects both white and yellow attacks; converts dodges and parries to hits). The Belt of One-Hundred Deaths used to give me 3% white hit rating (affecting ~50% of my damage); now it will give me 1.5% increased white damage and 1.5% increased WF and SS damage (affecting ~90% of my damage). It's probably an oversimplification, but it looks like a minor nerf: before I would get at most a 1.5% damage increase from the weapon skill on the belt, now I get at most a 1.35% damage increase from the expertise on the belt. (I am intentionally ignoring the effects of critical strikes in this analysis.)

I also happen to wear Shoulderpads of the Stranger, so I will have 8 expertise, resulting in a 2% dodge reduction. Theoretically, the net effect of this may be a buff (2% * 90% of damage = 1.8% damage increase, up from 1.5% in 2.2.)

We still don't know three things:
  1. Whether or not Expertise is working as intended (appropriately reducing dodge and parry chance). It is believed that the parry reduction supposedly granted by weapon skill was not working as intended, and if the expertise code was copied from the weapon skill code, it may not be functioning correctly.
  2. Whether or not Expertise is intended to affect yellow damage. So far, our assumption is that it is, but we do not have any evidence to prove this is correct.
  3. How Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll hit table and/or two-roll attack system. Possibilities include:
  • The most logical functionality would be that expertise reduces the number of dodges and parries while simultaneously increasing the number of hits.
  • However, it could be that rather than being converted to "Hit", "Dodge" and "Parry" are converted to "Miss". This would make Expertise far, far less valuable than Weapon Skill for enhancement shamans and essentially obsolete the stat.
  • Another possibility is that rather than being converted to "Hit", "Dodge" and "Parry" are removed from the table. If you don't follow me, I am saying that in this scenario, the percentage of "Hits" would increase as a number of total swings but the ratio of "Hits" to "Crits" would not change. For example, a character with 25% combined miss/dodge/parry and 75% combined hit/crit/glance that equipped items totaling 10 expertise would then have 20% miss/dodge/parry and 75% hit/crit/glance. Obviously these do not sum to 100% so the true numbers become 21% miss/dodge/parry and 79% hit/crit/glance. I realize this is a terribly tortured explanation without any tables to show what I mean, so if you don't get this, just ignore it for now.


TL;DR Summary:
  • It looks like the conversion of Weapon Skill to Expertise has slightly nerfed the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, but overall it remains a decent use of item budget, and items that previously granted dagger skill may now be good choices for enhancement shamans.
  • Extensive testing will be needed to determine the true effects of expertise and reveal if this initial theory proves correct. We must determine if expertise affects yellow attacks and if it increases the number of hits or merely raises the hit cap. If it does not affect yellow attacks or if it merely raises the hit cap, expertise will not be a good use of item budget.
  • Weapon type considerations are no longer relevant for anyone except Orcs. It remains unknown if the 1% crit racial ability outweighs the inherent superiority of Syphon and Dragonstrike to Rising Tide and Wicked Edge, respectively.

Last edited by Rob : 10/13/07 at 6:55 PM.
#3782SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
It gripes me that Rogues and Warriors get "free" Weapon skill and I assume free expertise when the patch goes live. It makes it annoying to be required to have to use items such as belt of one hundred deaths or the gloves from alar or even the shoulders.

This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor.

I realise all classes can't have the same talents, but it again is something that as a melee class we should have access to without having to get a specific item, especially since all the items are now in shit instances that most end game guilds dont even frequent. My guild could not go into TK/SSC now purely because no one wants to waste 3+ hours on getting 15 void crystals and hoping the odd random piece that it useful will drop.

Last edited by Stigmata : 10/13/07 at 7:20 PM.
#3783SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Rogues for sure are getting their +10 weapon skill converted directly to +10 expertise. I'm not sure on the Warrior situation as I think the talents were moved around. I believe that the expertise from talents is going to be in the Prot tree, which might mean that DPS warriors won't pick that talent.

Weapon Expertise would be a great replacement for the "Toughness" talent, or possibly the "Improved Weapon Totems" talent, which is not wholly useless but definitely underpowered compared to most talents that deep in the tree.

Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise!
#3784SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Rob
Overall, though, this seems like an itemization issue rather than a talents issue. Maybe they could replace our T6 MP5 with expertise!
Wishful thinking sadly
#3785SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Stigmata
This reminds me of the mail gloves every dps warrior used to wear back in Naxx, because of the glancing thing even though they were not intended to be used in such a manor.
Sup Edgemaster's Handguards.

I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
#3786SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Again, not sure if this is a silly question, but it was stated that until 100 Deaths was tested with its new stats, that Boneweave Girdle - Items - World of Warcraft was the second best belt.

How would Don Alejandro's Money Belt - Items - World of Warcraft compare to this? with 2 sockets, it seems like the obvious choice with BT or JC only gems.

Again, sorry if this has already been asked, but i searched and couldnt find it.
#3787SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by rava
I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
Did the same on the eu forums here
#3788SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Difforgazm: please read "VIII.2 Itemization – Using Stat Weights" of the first post. There lies your answer about the two belts, after using a calculator.
#3789SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I made some tickets about the stats on t6, whatever good it will do.
#3790SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by rava
I've been submitting feedback for t6 trying to explain why mp/5 is not good, I doubt it'll do anything but I would applaud anyone else who does the same.
I did in the thread Eyonix was looking at, but based on what he was saying, I think it's a lost cause.
#3791SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Because this patch is making a lot of changes to the shaman talents, now would probably be an excellent time for every shaman that reads this thread to make feedback on the PTR.

As Rob suggested above, if several hundred of us (or more? who knows how many are reading this thread) gave feedback stating that Toughness or Anticipation should be changed to Weapon Expertise, maybe we'd have a shot of getting it.
#3792SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Vim
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.


On another note, AEP has helped me a lot while comparing armor, but I was wondering if there was a formulae used when comparing weapons. Since there is more to a weapon than the stats and gem slot, is there a way to assign a value to the difference in DPS? Assigning a value of 14 AP = 1 DPS doesnt seem correct to me as it is a huge AEP difference between weapons, and seems inflated in comparison to the AEP difference in pieces of armor. Id rather run it through a simulator, but my system is a bit dodgy atm, and Yo! isnt working because of that.

Last edited by Vim : 10/14/07 at 3:10 AM. Reason: spelling
#3793SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Speaking of badge gear, has any shaman checked if there is any shaman only gear for sale? As i think druid was the one who recorded first sightings and therefor there was a druid only piece for sale.
#3794SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3darkInertia
Originally Posted by Rob
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] / Weapon Expertise Adjustment discussion follows:

Before, the belt was granting 6 weapon skill, which translated into a bit over 3% white hit.
Now, it is granting 6 expertise, which translates into 1.5% dodge reduction and 1.5% parry reduction.

In a raid environment, the parry reduction will be largely useless as we will be attacking from behind. However, in the event that you are forced to attack from the front (RSTS ability causes boss to turn, tank repositioning, void-zone type AoE on floor, etc.) parry reduction should be quite nice. Increased damage output and you will lessen the possibility of anyone dying to a hasted swing timer resulting from a parry.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.
#3795SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.
#3796SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3darkInertia
Originally Posted by Atren
Do not think so, i see parry when i am parried which certainly seems to be a lot higher than 5%.
You see "parry" when you're attacking a mob from behind?
#3797SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Vim
With the new enchant in ZA, I wanted to compare it to Mongoose, but need someone to test my math. From what Wowhead shows, it has the same duration (15 sec) with no apparent ppm as well. Assuming 1 AGI = 2 AEP, Haste = 1.48, and Armor Pen. = .25 then Mongoose = 240 AEP from agility and 46.65 AEP from Haste (2% haste = 31.52 rating) = 286.65 AEP. Exectioner is 840 armor penetration = 210 AEP. Am I correct in this math? I understand that my personal AEP will change with my gear, and Armor Penetration may become more valuable as my gear changes.
That was already said in executioneer vs mongoose testing thread, Since warriors and shamans don't gain ap from agility, only haste part of mongoose proc give us fixed dps increase and crit part from agility may vary dependant on rng. Also i think that armor penetration is a bit undervalued in op. According to raid bosses armor thread -840 armor is over 5% more dps on fully debufed boss mob.

Originally Posted by darkInertia
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.

Mobs cant parry from behind. If it would so, tanks instagibs would occur too often.
Many boss mobs have around 10% parry, much higher than usual mobs.
#3798SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
double post, delete please
#3799SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by darkInertia
You see "parry" when you're attacking a mob from behind?
No, i see parry when i am parried.

EDIT: Noticed this thread has over 500k views :P
#3800SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
#3801SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Bragor
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
Blizzard have always been shit when it comes to trinkets. DST being a prime example in tbc and Rejuv Gem or Nelth Tear etc in vanilla wow.
#3802SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Well, that trinket is 150 AEP always as it only gives AP which is base of AEP values. Other trinkets vary depending on the usefulness of the stats they have (Hit, Crit and etc). Values on first post are based on fixed values which will not be right for you. Get your personalised values and then use formulas in first post to see if it still is 2nd best trinket in the game atm for you.
#3803SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Wichtel
Well i love the trinket. You can argue that it should not be better than the BT/Hyjal Trinkets. But I like active trinkets a lot and i am happy that there is a better than Bloodlust Brooch. I can use them when i activate SR/Bloodlust/Drums/Haste Potions or if i we need to get something down fast. It gives me another way to influence my performance and i think it is great to have a very good active trinket.
#3804SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Wichtel
You can argue that it should not be better than the BT/Hyjal Trinkets.
Argue? It is a fact that BT/Hyjal trinkets should be better than a lower level instance, there is no argument in my opinion. Poor itemisation yet again.
#3805SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Actually you can argue that in order to keep interest in less than last instance it is nice incentive to have few pieces of eq in earlier one superior than in currently best one. Also is this out of order powerlist only for shamans or also for rogues/warriors? Unfortunaly rogues and dps warriors are primary target and any anomalies that only apply to us are of lesser importance imo. That last statement is of course my own personal view.
#3806SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Probably stupid question but:
Currently using DST+Dragonstrike.
Macroed SR+Bloodlust trinket.
When using SR macro should I use Haste pots AND Drums of Battle or just SR+Drums and after one minute Haste pots to keep some kind of rotation.

Reading it after myself it seems like a total nonsense ;(
#3807SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Bragor
Theres a new trinket dropping in ZA that might be the 2nd best trinket in game atm.

[Berserker's Call]

Doing the Math : 90 AEP + (360*20/120) = 90 + 60 = 150 AEP

Making it the 2nd best trinket after the DST.

Something not right here.
Actually, with my current gear, and using Yo's calculator, I calculated Madness of the Betrayer to be roughly 165 AEP worth. While the trinket is indeed good, it's entirely gear dependant if it indeed becomes the second best trinket or not.
#3808SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
When discussing AEP values, its a worthless discussion if we're all going to compare things based off individualized AEP. It would be better if we used the generalized form, otherwise its like we're discussing physics but we each have a unique value for the acceleration due to gravity.
#3809SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
has anyone looked at the proc rate for executioner yet?

Would it be worth getting over mongoose?
Would it be worth getting over crusader?

Obviously the more armor pen you have, the higher your aep is for armor pen, so the most useful information would be: what is the average armor pen given by executioner?
#3810SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by tzenes
has anyone looked at the proc rate for executioner yet?

Would it be worth getting over mongoose?
Would it be worth getting over crusader?

Obviously the more armor pen you have, the higher your aep is for armor pen, so the most useful information would be: what is the average armor pen given by executioner?
Rogue DPS spreadsheet has Mongoose/Executioner equal, Executioner being a little higher DPS and Mongoose having more defensive stats. 840 armor from Executioner, assumed same procrate as Mongoose so I don't see why you need an average, just compare the raw numbers. Another thing to keep in mind is haste values are multiplicative.
#3811SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Malan, normally i would agree except in this case all that new trinket gives is AP. Since AP is always 1 as its basis of all other values, some sort of comparison can be made especially to show that it is not necessarily 2nd best trinket.

Tzenes, there is thread in here concerning that somewhere in this site.
#3812SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Atren
Malan, normally i would agree except in this case all that new trinket gives is AP. Since AP is always 1 as its basis of all other values, some sort of comparison can be made especially to show that it is not necessarily 2nd best trinket.
My comment was regarding someone else saying that Madness of the Betrayer had a different value for them, not regarding the AP trinket.
#3813SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by darkInertia
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I believe that PVE mobs (bosses at the very least) can parry from behind; it is converted into a "miss" (or a "dodge", i forget) in the combat log, but mobs still get their parry chance even when attacked from behind.
As far as I have been able to determine, mobs cannot parry from behind*, but can dodge from behind. While I know WoWWiki is far from an authoritative source, I believe that most sims and spreadsheets are currently following the assumptions made in their Attack Table article, and these sims and spreadsheets currently seem to be 99% accurately reproducing game mechanics. If there is evidence to suggest that bosses have an elevated "dodge" or "miss" chance attacking from the rear as compared to the front, I would love to have it brought to my attention.


* The exception being when client and server disagree on the position of the player, which is believed to be the cause of the rare parried Backstab and the like.
#3814SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Malan
My comment was regarding someone else saying that Madness of the Betrayer had a different value for them, not regarding the AP trinket.
That comment I posted was mostly in response to people thinking it would indeed stay the second best trinket in game, I merely posted that to show it is not that black and white.
#3815SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aurvandil
Best relic slot Totem is the [Totem of the Astral Winds] available in heroic Mana Tombs from the first boss. Its a 15 minute clear max, easily farmable.

Patch 2.3 will introduce the [Stonebreaker's Totem]. Wowhead data mining indicates this is a 50% proc rate. With 6 second cooldown shocks, if and only if you are able to maintain a shock on ever cooldown, this relic will be worth a passive 55 Attack power. Astral Winds is still probably the better choice to go with, but if you are unable to get the drop the Stonebreaker can provide a nice filler.
that would be correct except that the attack power gained from stonebreaker's totem applies to all white hits, windfuries, and stormstrikes in that 10 second period. Passive 55 ap, vs 80 ap only on windfuries. I'd take the passive 55 ap as I'm sure I white hit + stormstrike + windfury a lot more than I windfury alone.


lets take 10 second interval, best case scenario with 1.5 weapon speed

during that 10 seconds best case scenario
you white hit 10/1.5 = 6 hits
you stormstrike at the start and at the end hitting with both weapons = 4 hits
you double proc windfury every time the 3 second cooldown is up = 6 hits


with stonebreaker you are gaining 55 ap for 16 hits
with astral winds you are gaining 80 ap for 6 hits

I think its pretty obvious which one I'd take.
#3816SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Those 6 WF hits are multiplied by 140% if you are correctly specced, though (Elemental Weapons). That may not change the end result of your analysis, but it's important to take everything into consideration.

I also think it's logically wrong to include the SS twice. If you're looking at a 10 second cycle it should only include one Stormstrike.

Realistically, let's suppose everyone is using 2.6 speed weapons, with 100% flurry uptime for a swing speed of 2.0. Then you get 5 white swings in every 10 second period. The best-case scenario for this setup is also one WF proc every 4 seconds. So in a 40 second period there would be 10 WF procs (let's call them all MH, for the sake of argument), 4 SS, 20 MH white swings and 20 OH white swings. We'll say that you have a 15% miss rate on white swings, and that 20% of white swings glance doing 30% less damage, further reducing white damage by an additional 6%.

10*80*1.4*2 = 2240 max AP contribution from Astral Winds in 40 sec period.
10*55*1.4*2+4*55*1.5(SS)+20*55*0.79*1.5(MH+OH)=1540+330+1303.5=3173.5 max AP contribution from Stonebreaker in same 40 sec period.

Ignored: The effect of dodges, parries, blocks, and crits. These should apply consistently to both white and yellow damage.

If Stonebreaker uptime is lower than 50%, reduce the "55" in the second set of equations to 110*uptime.

Overall, I'm going to have to agree with your conclusion that Stonebreaker totem is superior if you shock enough to keep the buff up 50% of the time, but if you only shock enough to keep the buff up 35% of the time or less, Astral Winds is superior.

Last edited by Rob : 10/14/07 at 7:44 PM.
#3817SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah I just haven't updated that yet.
#3818SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
edit: he'd already done that, I need to learn to re-read stuff.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/14/07 at 8:06 PM. Reason: stupidity
#3819SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Rob
As far as I have been able to determine, mobs cannot parry from behind*, but can dodge from behind.
I can tell you that tonight, Teron Gorefiend parried 4 of my windfuries. FUwindfury noted it.
Teron is a jerk, he turns around to select a target on whom to place shadow of doom.
When he does that, he parries the living daylights out of me, but at least he didn't instantly slaughter our tank.

So while you are fundamentally correct that bosses can not parry from behind, those jerks tend to spin in place while casting one-off spells.
#3820SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Chr
As far as I'm aware, mobs that appear to parry when you are behind them come from mobs that cast abilities on players, even for the most fractional parts of seconds. Things like Void Reaver orbs, Morogrim's water tombs etc. Question is, why can't this be corrected by having the mobs behave similar to Nef's calls, where no targets are needed.
#3821SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Yeah, RSTS (random secondary target selection) abilities can indeed cause parries and sometimes with certain abilities, especially charges, the boss doesn't switch back immediately and the swing timer lines up so that you'll get hit and die, like Al'ar's charge used to. I assume that these abilities are easier to script than things like Nef's class calls, which is why they're used.

You can also parry a boss from behind with the server/client disagreement exception I described above.
#3822SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Nubittos
Yo!'s java applet : Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator Currently under development, may have bugs. This sim will also help create custom AEP values for you based on *your* gear.
Correct me if im wrong, but is this addon doing justice to FT in the offhand ?

my settings are 1600 AP, 15% hit, 28% crit, 2.6 speed MH with WF, and 1.4 speed OH with FT... It says 60ish dps with FT, but does that do it justice ? :s

it hits if I recall right now for about 80 damage or so, and with the increased dmg/heal in patch 2.3 we get that damage increased by a fair amount compared to what it already does... with these stats correct me if im wrong again... (say 1600 AP meaning 1600/3/10 = 53,33 damage/hit. meaning my FT should hit for around 130 damage/hit. Given that I use the gladiators dagger with 1.4 speed in the offhand I should reach nearly 1 hit/second with flurry. (and even faster with BL/trinkets, u name it...)

say we have mongoose on both wpns that will also boost weaponspeeds considerably! Roughly we should get say for instance 150 dps out of this FT, but if u check it out on the addon it says 60 dps with my settings :s

60 dps with 1.4 speed wpn... how is that possible with 130 damage hits and a wpn that on average strikes atleast once/second... som one explain, or tell me its wrong

ps. if I make the OH weaponspeed faster it decreases my DPS, which is ofc rediculous... something MUST be wrong :s

Last edited by Nubittos : 10/15/07 at 7:03 AM.
#3823SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
First, did you turn on the AP->Spellpower flag under Procs & Stuff? In the default setting, the sim is using 2.2 mechanics.

Second, Yo's acknowledged that the AP->Spellpower conversion code in the sim is currently somewhat buggy, but he's on vacation for a bit and doesn't plan to update the sim until Nov 1.
#3824SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nubittos
yeah I did add it

and as I just edited the post above, I made the OH weapon faster and the damage from FT decreased that cant be right ?

EDIT: sry it was an overall decrease in DPS not the FT, but its weird that I change the speed frmo 2.6 to 1.4 and the change in FT damage is like 10% :S
#3825SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Mulgero
What was the average AEP value for RED meta gem using OP AEP values for stats? I remember it been mentioned in some post but couldn't find it anymore.

+12 agi = 24AEP, 3%crit damage ?

*edited* read OP again.. depending of group setup my crit% is between 35-45% in raids so propably average increase would be around 1.5% I guess. I suppose that would translate roughly being ~10dps? whatever that would be in AEP value... 1dps was abot 14AP so 140AEP? Feels like too high value.

Thanks for advance.

Last edited by Mulgero : 10/15/07 at 8:20 AM.
#3826SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Razputin
Remember theres side effects of having a fast OH, such as eating the flurry of ur MH, which in turn impacts ur wf procs. Maybe thats whats affecting ur results.
#3827SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mulgero
*edited* read OP again.. depending of group setup my crit% is between 35-45% in raids so propably average increase would be around 1.5% I guess. I suppose that would translate roughly being ~10dps? whatever that would be in AEP value... 1dps was abot 14AP so 140AEP?
14 AP is 1 white DPS when you're attacking with only one weapon and before any talents, special attacks, or crits. In other words, 14 AP provides significantly more than 1 DPS to level 70 enhancement shamans, who are dual-wielding, using Stormstrike, proccing Windfury (which is further multiplied by 40% talented correctly), critting ~30% of the time, and have a Weapon Mastery talent that increases all melee damage we deal by 10%.

Nevertheless, even supposing that those things increase our AP->DPS conversion by a factor of 4, you're still getting 12 agility and 35 AP which is more than any other meta can offer.

Last edited by Rob : 10/15/07 at 9:17 AM.
#3828SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nubittos
sry for being this blunt Razputin but ill say as snorkle did on the forum about this and I Quote:

"NO NO NO NO NO" :P

anyways fast weapon eating flurry is the flurry mechanic misunderstood really... a faster weapon will also apply a new flurry so fast of slow weapons your flurry uptime (if you dont count up until first crit of a session) will be the same.. Yes the flurry gets eaten faster you are right, but you are also hitting faster so as said you will also get flurry proc more often

flurry is depending on you critting, not your weaponspeeds.. if flurry was attackspeed for 3 seconds things would be different, but its 3 swings, so speed won't matter... tell me if I don't make sense, however, this should be understandable.

Nubittos
#3829SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mulgero
Originally Posted by Rob
Nevertheless, even supposing that those things increase our AP->DPS conversion by a factor of 4, you're still getting 12 agility and 35 AP which is more than any other meta can offer.
Thanks a lot, RED could be valued roughly as 60 AEP, or maybe to be safe 50-55 AEP. Mainly concerned as comparing ZA leather and mail head pieces against T4 with RED as those don't have meta gem slots. Seems that both ZA options are upgrade to T4 with RED.

T4 2p set bonus is decent for full melee groups compared to upgrade I would get replacing all my T4 pieces with ZA+heroic pieces...
#3830SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Nubittos
sry for being this blunt Razputin but ill say as snorkle did on the forum about this and I Quote:

"NO NO NO NO NO" :P

anyways fast weapon eating flurry is the flurry mechanic misunderstood really... a faster weapon will also apply a new flurry so fast of slow weapons your flurry uptime (if you dont count up until first crit of a session) will be the same.. Yes the flurry gets eaten faster you are right, but you are also hitting faster so as said you will also get flurry proc more often

flurry is depending on you critting, not your weaponspeeds.. if flurry was attackspeed for 3 seconds things would be different, but its 3 swings, so speed won't matter... tell me if I don't make sense, however, this should be understandable.

Nubittos
Flurry is actually dependent on weapon speeds, even if it's just a small amount. This seems to get overlooked by 95% of players (stat made up on the spot).

From my post in the Blizzard forums:

===================================
Think of the following example:

You are dual wielding a 5.0 speed weapons (I know, that's ridiculous, but it helps illustrate the point)

How many times in 10 seconds can you proc a flurry state?
2 - stormstrike
2 - windfury (say we only get one windfury in this 10 second scenario)
4 - white hits.

So, we have 8 attacks that can proc flurry.

How many can use up flurry charges? 4.

So, we have 2 flurry-proc'ing attacks for every flurry consuming attack. You will be close to perma flurried in this case.

Now, assume you are using 1.0 speed weapons. Say we get two windfuries instead of one (just to make it clear that even with more flurry-generating attacks your flurry % can go down).

How many times in 10 seconds can you proc a flurry state?
2 - stormstrike
4 - windfury
20 - white hits.

So, we have 26 attacks that can proc flurry.

How many can use up flurry charges? 20.

So, we have 1.3 flurry-proc'ing attacks for every flurry consuming attack. This is a much worse production to consumption ratio than with the slower weapons.

Simply put, with faster weapons, your flurry uptime will decrease because the bonus flurry-attacks of SS and WF are a smaller percentage of the number of flurry-proc-capable moves.
=================================

Hope that helps.
#3831SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
OP updated with Rob's analysis of Weapon Expertise and Panny's analysis of the Stonebreaker's Totem.
#3832SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Malan
OP updated with Rob's analysis of Weapon Expertise and Panny's analysis of the Stonebreaker's Totem.
you can probably update it adding as OH weapon fool's bane and the decapitator, since they finally decided to make them one-hand next patch

EDIT: nm i should learn to read i didn't saw the little addendum, ignore me!
#3833SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Oh yah I did that too.
#3834SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
I can verify the results on the stonebreaker totem. My test was slightly different since I had 6 second shocks. However I can say for certain that never once did the buff get reapplied. So there is definitely a cooldown in the range of 10-12 seconds.

After 20 minutes in blasted lands my uptime was in the low 50's %wise which is pretty nice.

Other observations.
Our mana burden has dropped dramatically. Spamming SS and shocks with water shield and mana totem running pretty much meant my mana never dropped. Cheap shocks, improved mana spring and water shield (amazing water shield) was more than enough. I did not even use Shamanistic rage. If you are not getting hit water shield is really nice but not amazing. If you are grinding mobs though it is truly amazing.

Also for newer shaman or ones that forget the old resto days it is important to realize that your totem strength gets determined when it drops. Our AP fluctuates wildly at times but if possible you want to wait, at the very least, until you have strength totem, battle shout and unleashed rage up prior to dropping searing and healing stream. It makes a very big difference.
#3835SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by berg
Also for newer shaman or ones that forget the old resto days it is important to realize that your totem strength gets determined when it drops. Our AP fluctuates wildly at times but if possible you want to wait, at the very least, until you have strength totem, battle shout and unleashed rage up prior to dropping searing and healing stream. It makes a very big difference.
Searing recalculates on every cast afaik, but your advice is true for healing stream.
#3836SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Theories aside. Copy pasting what I have just posted in euro forums:

Those are in NO WAY ACCURATE NUMBERS
It was just a quick test to judge a rough comparison of slow oh with WF vs fast oh with FT

OH used:
Twinblade of Mastery - Items - World of Warcraft - (fast) 1.4
High Warlord's Cleaver - Items - World of Warcraft - (slow) 2.6

those weapons have same nominal dps. but HW cleaver has some budget spent into resilence
while twin blade has expertise rating which effects mh too especilly fighting from front of the mob.

Test target: Servant of ... blasted lands immortal mob.
Test duration: roughly 4 minutes each
Fighting techinque: soe and goa up full time. storm strike used every cd

AP before equipping offhand: 1414
Crit rate before equipping offhand: 26.78
Hit rating before equipping offhand: 19.21
MH speed: 2.7
MH enchant: mongoose.
Outside buffs used: none

DPS with slow/slow: 845,6
DPS with slow./fast: 862,4

Slow mh with fast oh with flametongue came ahead. TBh I am surprised. I was expecting otherwise. At first slow/fast was worse but with flurry up and mongoose proccing it started to gain dps fast.
It in no way reflects raid situation
let me say it again:
It in now way reflects raid situation. Since: raid boss will have a ton of debuffs affecting WF and FT in different way. Partial resists full resists etc will skew the result. I dont even want to try to theorycraft precisly enough to reflect all the changes to the results i posted. It just shows that it might be more vialble combo in 2.3. More and more precises testing would be required. Just dont disenchant your fangs of vashij yet.
I am surprised to say the least. My quick test have shown fast oh with FT to be better
#3837SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Is there already a very good quality lightweight watershield mod? If not, I"ll build one into DisqoDice.
#3838SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Oteb
I am surprised to say the least. My quick test have shown fast oh with FT to be better
You were fighting with the mob facing you, which means parries. The mob is significantly lower than you which means you were not having FT resisting at the proper rate.
#3839SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by Malan
You were fighting with the mob facing you, which means parries. The mob is significantly lower than you which means you were not having FT resisting at the proper rate.
I am aware of that. I was still expecting different results tbh.
Besides I miss like 14% resist rate but I also miss 15% improved scorch. There are just tons of other things that differ one on one vs level 55 to raid situation.
Unfortunetly alone I cant test it any better.
#3840SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I would actually say that your results are to be expected actually, not surprising at all. Because of Dodge and Parry you're taking an overall physical DPS loss over your test, whereas FT will have almost no resists whatsoever.

We really need to stop using Blasted Lands mobs for testing, the Halaa ones would be a better estimate, although I realize the inherent difficulties in using them.
#3841SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Another worthwhile note is that while your OH damage will scale with WF, but your FT will not change at all. In other words with WF both weapon dps and WF dps will improve as weapon dps improves, but with FT only weapon dps will improve.
#3842SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I found that on trash in ZA on PTR I was frequently topping 1100 DPS with Flametongue in offhand with a Ced's Carver and Windfury on mainhand with a Syphon. Amazed, I tried it out at the next boss fight, and got less than stellar results, barely topping 800 DPS. For comparison I was doing 850-900 DPS in the same situation with my normal WF setup. Group buffs were my totems + anything a prot paladin gives (nothing?) + a prot warrior who was most likely using commanding shout. I will try to get more testing in ZA with Flametongue this coming weekend when we run it some more. I wish I had a higher DPS offhand weapon to use, but the Ced's Carver just randomly dropped in ZA while we were running it and I long ago disenchanted my Malchazeen and Emerald Ripper.
#3843SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Flametongue performs significantly better against +1 and +2 targets than +3. The resist rate skyrockets from 6% against a +2 to 17% against a +3, which is the main reason that Flametongue is so horrible in the context of raiding. People see comparable numbers from WF to FT on trash or while grinding and assume that these results will carry over to boss fights, and this is absolutely not the case.
#3844SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Perhaps that's something to explore then - would it better to have a kit of weapons, fast OH for trash and slow OH for bosses?
#3845SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Flametongue performs significantly better against +1 and +2 targets than +3. The resist rate skyrockets from 6% against a +2 to 17% against a +3, which is the main reason that Flametongue is so horrible in the context of raiding. People see comparable numbers from WF to FT on trash or while grinding and assume that these results will carry over to boss fights, and this is absolutely not the case.
I still don't understand why FT (and FB) works of spell hit and crit, and paladin seals work of melee hit and crit. Maybe its worth to post suggestion on official forums?
#3846SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah that bugs me too. It falls in the Enhancement talent tree, it should probably be based around stats that we use.
#3847SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Yuma
Removed this comment, as it was based on a misread of a Wowhead post.

Last edited by Yuma : 10/15/07 at 1:02 PM.
#3848SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Kirion
I still don't understand why FT (and FB) works of spell hit and crit, and paladin seals work of melee hit and crit. Maybe its worth to post suggestion on official forums?
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
#3849SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Yuma
Since double Mongoose is so popular these days, I thought the following post on Wowhead in regards to the Elixir of Major Agility was interesting, considering we it listed just after a Flask of Relentless Assault on the main page:



Assuming this is accurate, and it applies, should we still rank the Elixir of Major Agility as superior to a Fel Strength Elixir for non-flasked encounters?
I believe they are refering to Elixir of Mongoose and not Mongoose enchant.
#3850SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Disquette
Is there already a very good quality lightweight watershield mod? If not, I"ll build one into DisqoDice.
I don't think there is, and even if there was, it's better to have all-in-one, i love your mod, makes me a happy twister!
#3851SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by Malan
I would actually say that your results are to be expected actually, not surprising at all. Because of Dodge and Parry you're taking an overall physical DPS loss over your test, whereas FT will have almost no resists whatsoever.

We really need to stop using Blasted Lands mobs for testing, the Halaa ones would be a better estimate, although I realize the inherent difficulties in using them.
You seem to forget that melee hit chance and crit chance dramitcly rise vs lower level oponents. Another thing to factor in is that armor is level difference based.(i was getting wf total up to 4.5 which usually does not happen outside raids)

But having said that I am off to halaa to try more. go go alliance cap it
#3852SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
Seal of Righteousness actually doesn't use a normal spell hit check. It's incapable of getting fully resisted, but does suffer from the usual partial resists. Then again, it can't crit either.
#3853SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Only Seal of Command (and Blood I guess, but it blows so who cares) works this way; Seal of Righteousness is a normal spell hit check. Avenger's Shield also uses melee mechanics, but Paladins get hosed over just as badly as Shamans do in this respect.
Offtopic, but anyway . According to Paladin tanking thread, SoR is melee hit, JoR is spell hit. And blood is actually nice for ret, cause you can focus on melee stats and ignore spell damage. I cant think of a reason, why all seals and weapon imbues cant be changed to work with melee stats.
#3854SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Malan
Perhaps that's something to explore then - would it better to have a kit of weapons, fast OH for trash and slow OH for bosses?
I think this would be a good idea. I'll definitely be picking up a swiftsteel bludgeon for offhanding with flametongue for appropriate trash.
#3855SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Did the test vs halaa guards.
They are completly inconclusive. The periods of dps before i had to heal myself was too tainted by parry streaks to produce any meaningful results.

first test:
fast oh ft = 724 dps
slow oh wf= 664 dps

second test
fast oh ft= 699dps
slow oh wf=758dps

That is using same weapons as in previous test vs servants
After that i did a try with decapitator in OH and it ended up 658dps. Too streaky. Completly pointless results. Without tank and longer dps periods no way to test it. IF anyone wants to tank for me on either of Euro test realms plz let me know.

PS. Decapitator proc damage when using weapon in OH is not halved.
#3856SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Oteb
Did the test vs halaa guards.
They are completly inconclusive. The periods of dps before i had to heal myself was too tainted by parry streaks to produce any meaningful results.

first test:
fast oh ft = 724 dps
slow oh wf= 664 dps

second test
fast oh ft= 699dps
slow oh wf=758dps

That is using same weapons as in previous test vs servants
After that i did a try with decapitator in OH and it ended up 658dps. Too streaky. Completly pointless results. Without tank and longer dps periods no way to test it. IF anyone wants to tank for me on either of Euro test realms plz let me know.

PS. Decapitator proc damage when using weapon in OH is not halved.
To test properly on Halaa guards you need to bring a tank and a healer.
#3857SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
If anyone would like to do a PTR test, I am copied onto the PvP server, alliance. For Halaa guards I should be able to fill either tank or healing position. Send me a PM, and I'll be happy to lend a hand.
#3858SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nubittos
ive been trying to get my character copied from 1st day they opened the crap, and I can't seem to get it copied... !!! ITS FRUSTRATING, AND I WANNA TEST STUFF TOO ! :P
#3859SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Ilmatar: I've got my shaman transfered over, and I've got the Ced's Carver I mentioned earlier that I could test FT with.

Edit: name on test is Lyratwo
#3860SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Azaranth
Disquette: I use Power Auras with 2 notifications.

1. Notify me when I have "Invigorated"
2. Notify me when I do not have "Lightning Shield / Water Shield" - combat only

That really does the job nicely. If you incorporate this into DisqoDice, be sure to have an off switch DD is a nice mod though. I have a hunch that I'm going to start mixing Fire Nova Totems into my dps rotations, since I'll have a ridiculous abundance of mana sitting around unused. You might eventually end up adding a Fire Nova Totem Cast / Cooldown bar below the shocks bar. At this point, I'm just playing Aztrodamus and looking into the future though.
#3861SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Oteb, I'm not saying your tests aren't worthwhile.

BUT - it's been said before that in 2.3 using Flametongue on a fast offhand is a good choice for shaman who aren't in top-end gear.

I think you perhaps aren't accounting for the fact that you do have top end gear, but certainly not top-end buffs.

Your 1400AP in great gear is nowhere near a raiding shaman's 3000 AP when buffed and facing a boss. This distinction alone outweighs 17% resist rates of bosses in terms of boosting Windfury weapon buffs beyond what Flametongue is capable of.

SCENARIO 25manBoss: while raiding and facing bosses, slowWF/slowWF is still the king.
SCENARIO Gen.Raiding: While doing trash clears or perhaps in 10mans, it's a toss up.
SCENARIO Solo: While grinding solo mobs, it might end up fastFT/fastFT.

Of the three, killing raid bosses is the situation most of us gear towards because it results in the best rewards.... I mean normally... having fun is the best reward and that is strictly your own opinion as to what's fun.

What would be great is coming up with a personal formula so that anyone can know when their shaman has XXXAP that's when WF beats out FT on the offhand against even level mobs.... A simulator like Yos would be great for determining what you should do in those 3scenarios. Especially if we could choose the level of the creature we're fighting or have a selector (boss/regular mob)
#3862SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Azaranth
Disquette: I use Power Auras with 2 notifications.

1. Notify me when I have "Invigorated"
2. Notify me when I do not have "Lightning Shield / Water Shield" - combat only

That really does the job nicely. If you incorporate this into DisqoDice, be sure to have an off switch DD is a nice mod though. I have a hunch that I'm going to start mixing Fire Nova Totems into my dps rotations, since I'll have a ridiculous abundance of mana sitting around unused. You might eventually end up adding a Fire Nova Totem Cast / Cooldown bar below the shocks bar. At this point, I'm just playing Aztrodamus and looking into the future though.
I tried Power Auras and for lack of a better word, it's gross. It uses more memory than any other addon that I have and it's really ugly.
#3863SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Dukanull
I personally find power auras to be a very helpful mod, especially with how proc reliant my gear is. I don't want to be popping a haste pot unless I have my Ashtongue talisman, DST, and double mongooses up. When i was wearing t5, it really helped with the instant LHW as well.

Side note, has anyone done any testing with the ashtongue talisman of Vision on PTR? They supposedly reduced it's chance to activate, curious to what kind of value or AEP people are holding it at.

edit: apparently I had skipped p145 on back reading, 140ish aep and coming below the tsunami talisman Sad times

Last edited by Dukanull : 10/15/07 at 4:57 PM.
#3864SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Azaranth
Yeah, I dunno. Memory usage is not an issue for me, but maybe you're running a lower end PC than I am. I'm not sure how you classify it as "ugly", when it's 100% customizable. Just add custom textures if you don't like the 50+ they offer.

Once I replace another piece of t5, I might consider dropping it. In such a case, a different water/lightning shield reminder would be appropriate. In the meantime, it's a pretty useful mod for altering you when you gain/lose buffs. People using 1g of RAM beware, I guess.
#3865SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Azaranth
Yeah, I dunno. Memory usage is not an issue for me, but maybe you're running a lower end PC than I am. I'm not sure how you classify it as "ugly", when it's 100% customizable. Just add custom textures if you don't like the 50+ they offer.

Once I replace another piece of t5, I might consider dropping it. In such a case, a different water/lightning shield reminder would be appropriate. In the meantime, it's a pretty useful mod for altering you when you gain/lose buffs. People using 1g of RAM beware, I guess.
I have a very nice PC, but unnecessary memory usage is unnecessary memory usage. The coding is done horribly and inefficiently, which is what the "ugly" referred to. I'm not too fond of the visuals, either, but we're getting more into preferences here!
#3866SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
I am cross posting this information from the Executioner Thread in this forum:

The consensus appears to be that the PPM/Uptime of the enchant is the same as Mongoose.


Mongoose Proc is 120 agi and 2% haste (31.52 haste rating at lvl 70). Using the AEP in the OP, this is (120 * 2) + (31.52 * 1.48) = 286.65 AEP

Executioner is 840 Armor Pen. 840 * 0.25 = 210 (low estimate) or 840 * 0.30 = 252 (my value from Yo!)

Just some thoughts on this: The AEP value I got for AP was 0.3 from Yo!'s sim. The change in AEP value from 0.25 to 0.30 netted 42 AEP. The low-gear AEP estimate is 0.19, which gets Executioner 159.6 AEP. In order for executioner to have the same AEP as Mongoose, the AEP value for AP needs to be 0.34. (840 * x = 287) Executioner's benefits are 100% gear dependent, so there should be a crossover point at which Executioner is better than Mongoose.
#3867SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ujai
As this is a raiding shaman thread, I guess that things like Sunder Armor and CoR are already calculated when looking at armor penetration? (I am just asking as I read in the Warlock thread that -armor has increasing returns) Otherwise .25 might really be a bit low.
#3868SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Whoever has access and wants to help, please post this text as a comment about the enhancement T6(T4/T5) items with the Blizzard Feedback UI on the PTR:
The mp5 on this item is just useless for enhancement shamans. Especially with the new talent "Elemental Focus", the enhanced water-shield and the powerful mana-reggen-ability "Shamanistic Rage", a enhancement shaman will not get out of mana, even with a full shock rotation, some heals and totems. So please remove the mp5 and put some agility and/or armor pierce on the item instead. Some of the int could also be taken off, as there is always a lot of int on the non-set items, that melee shamans share with hunters and enhancement shamans in general don't need a lot of int. These points are also true for most other items of enhancement shamans Tier 4, Tier 5 and Tier 6 set.

T6 setbonus: The 2pc setbonus is very weak. Shamans already have 3 talents (Elemental Focus, Mental Quickness, Concussion), that decrease the mana costs of shocks. Also the 4pc bonus is the only non-scaling (%) T6 4pc bonus in the game.
Idea for improvement:
- remove the 2pc bonus
- move the 4pc bonus to the 2pc slot
- make a new 4pc bonus (for example, 2% more AP from "Unleashed Rage")
Numbers count!
#3869SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Ujai
As this is a raiding shaman thread, I guess that things like Sunder Armor and CoR are already calculated when looking at armor penetration? (I am just asking as I read in the Warlock thread that -armor has increasing returns) Otherwise .25 might really be a bit low.
We generally assume at least Sunder + CoR or Sunder + FF. It's true that -armor has increasing returns (until you hit 0), but it's also important to remember that if we increase armor penetration we also increase the effectiveness of every other stat (i.e AP, crit, hit, haste). because you're hitting harder with them. When you're calculating the efficiency of armor penetration in terms of AP, this consideration mitigates (no pun intended) the effect that increasing returns to scale have on stacking armor penetration and we've seen a fairly consistent value of 0.25-0.30 AEP at the gear level where armor penetration begins to become available on items (i.e. Hyjal and BT -- for lower-geared enhancement shamans making the transition from Kara'zhan->ZA, armor penetration probably has a lower AEP).

@ SentinelBorg: I love your idea to increase the effect of Unleashed Rage as a T6 bonus. 1 or 2% would be a great party DPS improvement (equivalent to at least 20-40 AP per person in T6 gear) without being so huge that it screams "nerf".
#3870SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Rob
@ SentinelBorg: I love your idea to increase the effect of Unleashed Rage as a T6 bonus. 1 or 2% would be a great party DPS improvement (equivalent to at least 20-40 AP per person in T6 gear) without being so huge that it screams "nerf".
Yeah, would be a really good bonus and worthy of T6. As I see, you have an US account. Would be nice, if you could copy my post from here to the US shaman forum. I'm sure, if we just "whine" enough, they will react.
#3871SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
I modified your thing a bit, SentinelBorg:

The mp5 on this item is a waste of item budget for enhancement shamans. With the new talent Elemental Focus, the new and improved Water Shield and the powerful mana-regen ability Shamanistic Rage, an enhancement shaman will not go out of mana easily, even with a full shock rotation, some heals and totems. So please remove the mp5 and put more melee-focused stats on the item instead, such as agi, str, hit, crit, expertise, or armor pierce. Expertise especially would be a very beneficial stat since we have no talents which help with dodge/parry reduction, unlike rogues or warriors.

T6 set bonuses: The 2pc setbonus is very weak. Shamans already have 3 talents (Elemental Focus, Mental Quickness, Concussion), that decrease the mana costs of shocks. Also the 4pc bonus is the only non-scaling (%) T6 4pc bonus in the game.

Ideas for improvement:
- remove the 2pc bonus
- move the 4pc bonus to the 2pc slot
- make a new 4pc bonus (for example, 2% more AP from "Unleashed Rage")
Thoughts?

Edit to add: I also submitted this on PTR. For anyone curious how to easily do this, just use AtlasLoot or having someone link a T6 piece to you. Alt-left click the item link, then click "fill out a survey". Bam.
#3872SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Yeah, would be a really good bonus and worthy of T6. As I see, you have an US account. Would be nice, if you could copy my post from here to the US shaman forum. I'm sure, if we just "whine" enough, they will react.
My "friend" got me permabanned from the official forums since he was using my account to troll
#3873SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tambard
I didn't notice this question or discussion on it browsing back, but I was curious if it would be worth macroing my shocks to equip the Stonebreaker's Totem, Shock, the re-equip the Totem of Astral Winds. I am working on getting the badges for it, but I was curious if anyone else had tried it or would be able to try it and see if it's worth the effort.
#3874SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krom[Fenris]
Can you change relics in combat? I'd say no, but other classes equip weapons in that slot, so not sure.
#3875SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Ilmatar
You can change Relic's in combat, changing them triggers the GCD (only in combat) but changing them does not respect the GCD. To put it another way, you can macro together a spell with a cast time (Such as Healing Wave) and then equip the Totem of Healing Rains, and it will work, because you are equipping the totem after the spell is cast (during GCD) but the spell is going to use the totem when the spell is finished casting.

Combining this totem with a shock won't work, because the shock is instant, so you'd need to equip the totem before casting the shock, and that swap would incur the GCD, making the shock unable to cast until the GCD is over.

Edit:

It may be possible to use both totems if you have a rigorous shock/SS rotation that you adhere to. You could do:
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/equip shock totem

For SS macro, and

/cast Flame Shock
/stopcasting
/equip Totem of Astral Winds

I think this would be a major pain in the ass, though. I have my healing spells macro'd with totems, and it is actually not as awesome as you'd think, because if you happen to miss the GCD, you end up incurring an additional GCD (from the totem swap) and not casting the spell.

Another possible solution is a plugin (similar to ItemRack's trinket queue thingy) that would let you specify spells, and hook into events like casting-completed, casting-begin, etc, but I think it would still run into GCD issues.

Last edited by Ilmatar : 10/15/07 at 7:51 PM.
#3876SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3ChaguraED
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
Can you change relics in combat? I'd say no, but other classes equip weapons in that slot, so not sure.

I am Fairly sure you can swap totems in combat, as many resto shaman talk about swapping their healing totems based on the type of heal they're casting (chain heal vs healing wave)

If this is correct then that would certainly be a good macro to run
#3877SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
You can change Relic's in combat, changing them triggers the GCD (only in combat) but changing them does not respect the GCD. To put it another way, you can macro together a spell with a cast time (Such as Healing Wave) and then equip the Totem of Healing Rains, and it will work, because you are equipping the totem after the spell is cast (during GCD) but the spell is going to use the totem when the spell is finished casting.

Combining this totem with a shock won't work, because the shock is instant, so you'd need to equip the totem before casting the shock, and that swap would incur the GCD, making the shock unable to cast until the GCD is over.
Ah, thank you.
#3878SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PhyerFly
Just wanted to drop by and add that Enhancement Shaman will have two new slow off-hand weapons options in 2.3 that are worth noticing. The following weapons were originally main-hand only and will be changed to one-hand when the patch hits.

[Fool's Bane] (from Illhoof in kara)
Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft

[The Decapitator] (from Prince in kara)
The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft
#3879SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
can you add to the first post the best epic gems to use from hyjal/bt?
#3880SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rhagok
Well by the time you are there you should probably know which gems to use, not that it would be the same ones anyway (all strengt, strength + crit ... )
#3881SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
Originally Posted by Paradox
can you add to the first post the best epic gems to use from hyjal/bt?
Same as regular but the epic version,

[Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst]
[Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Inscribed Pyrestone]

If people have a hard time figuring that out :P
#3882SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Azaranth
Disquette: I use Power Auras with 2 notifications.

1. Notify me when I have "Invigorated"
2. Notify me when I do not have "Lightning Shield / Water Shield" - combat only

That really does the job nicely. If you incorporate this into DisqoDice, be sure to have an off switch DD is a nice mod though. I have a hunch that I'm going to start mixing Fire Nova Totems into my dps rotations, since I'll have a ridiculous abundance of mana sitting around unused. You might eventually end up adding a Fire Nova Totem Cast / Cooldown bar below the shocks bar. At this point, I'm just playing Aztrodamus and looking into the future though.
I use Power Auras for alot of things:
-Invigorated
-Proc buffs such as Haste, (old) Hourglass, with timers so I know if it's worth popping Trinket/Bloodlust/Drums/Pot/what-have-you
-To check if I am in range of my buffing totems
-For debuffs such as MS (PvP)
-For HoTs ticking on me so I know I don't have to waste time healing myself
-To show if I don't have an elemental shield of some kind
-To show if I don't have a Shout while in combat

I can't recommend it enough.

On the subject of relic switching: it's not worth it for a melee class. Since switching relics will invoke the GCD, it means no auto-attacks then. It's difficult to time the GCD in between two swings, especially with all the haste effects we have occuring. It might actually completely reset the swing timer!

Malan: one thing you might want to add to the Stonebreaker analysis in the first post is that the observed uptime is around 50% with a 10 second cooldown between procs. It might be difficult for some to digest the results just based on the maths without the underlying premises. And then we'd get two months of people posting in this thread asking which is better: Astral Winds or Stonebreaker.
#3883SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
Im thinking on what spec would be the best overall dps for a raiding enh shaman once 2.3 is live.

SO few things. On the talent calc make some mental changes (at work so didnt look for a 2.3 talent calc).

2Handed weapons in 2.3 is Focused casting- Chance on Crit shocks cost 60% less

Mental quickness is the same as well as in 2.3 with 3 points -30% of your AP = spelldamage and healing

First is whats commonly known as the suicide spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros-

Increased fire totem damage
Faster shocks 5 sec shocks down from 6secs
Increased shock damage (5% increase)
Slightly cheaper shocks.

Cons vs enh resto spec (below) -

3% less hit
No extended totem range
Normal cost totems
Standard Heal speed
no healing focus


Enh/Resto spec

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros -

Faster Healing wave
Cheaper totems
increased totem range
Healing focus (lol 14%)
Chance to hit increased by 3%

Cons Vs Suicide spec (1st link) -

Slower shocks
Standard fire totem damage
Standard shock damage & cost

Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness.
My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage.
Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage.
#3884SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?

Thanks!
#3885SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Neithan
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?

Thanks!
Sure, I'll do it when I get home if the server's aren't down tonight (in 7 hours or so).

Really though, it's not hard to use, and you won't figure out what my auras are configured for.

Last edited by panny : 10/15/07 at 11:36 PM.
#3886SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Cruelty
Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness.
My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage.
Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage.
You are not the first to post this idea here and sadly, probably not the last.
#3887SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Cruelty
Im thinking on what spec would be the best overall dps for a raiding enh shaman once 2.3 is live.

SO few things. On the talent calc make some mental changes (at work so didnt look for a 2.3 talent calc).

2Handed weapons in 2.3 is Focused casting- Chance on Crit shocks cost 60% less

Mental quickness is the same as well as in 2.3 with 3 points -30% of your AP = spelldamage and healing

First is whats commonly known as the suicide spec:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros-

Increased fire totem damage
Faster shocks 5 sec shocks down from 6secs
Increased shock damage (5% increase)
Slightly cheaper shocks.

Cons vs enh resto spec (below) -

3% less hit
No extended totem range
Normal cost totems
Standard Heal speed
no healing focus


Enh/Resto spec

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Pros -

Faster Healing wave
Cheaper totems
increased totem range
Healing focus (lol 14%)
Chance to hit increased by 3%

Cons Vs Suicide spec (1st link) -

Slower shocks
Standard fire totem damage
Standard shock damage & cost

Now my thoughts are that the suicide spec will push out more damage with the improved shocks and fire totem damage, especially with the new mental quickness.
My main concern is the 3% to hit is a big loss that would nerf melee damage to counteract the extra damage gained from the better shock/Fire totem damage.
Mana should not be a issue with focused state and Shamanistic rage.
Reverberation and Concussion are about a 45 dps increase by my math. I'm willing to bet Nature's Guidance is worth more than 45 dps. I'm sure someone could figure that out for us pretty quickly. Don't forget that Nature's Guidance improves spell hit in addition to melee hit.

Convection is a terrible talent for us now, and will be even worse after the patch. If you're dead set on going elemental I would suggest putting those points into Elemental Warding.

Enhancement/restoration is clearly the superior spec to me, even damage-wise. Even if it wasn't, I would still put my extra points into restoration because I'm just not going to play this game without Totemic Mastery. Isn't it weird how every time someone posts this enhancement/elemental vs. enhancement/restoration theory they never include any math at all? Somewhat telling, I think.

Last edited by Sebudai : 10/15/07 at 11:56 PM. Reason: wrong talent name...
#3888SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
Malan I apoligise for rehashing old cr@p thats been posted many times.

Im just interested in the changes in 2.3 with the added spelldamage and mana being less of a issue from focused casting. People seem to be discussing the viability of Flamtongue with a fast weapon at this point.

Keep inmind Im not talking about specs pre 2.3 but afterwards as I know the enh/resto spec is the best way to roll.
Seeing I have finally gotten my toons transfered to the Pve Ptr I will test out the different specs on the immortal mobs in blastedlands. If your interested I will put up any findings.
I realise that the Blastedlands mobs are not the best things to test on but without a tank, healer and a couple of people in halaa its as good as I got.
#3889SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
They finally changed our Arena glove bonus from a harder hitting Lightning Shield to the old Elemental gloves bonus: +5 yards on Shocks. Pretty nice, as I was seriously considering using the four pieces of Enhancement Arena gear with the Elemental gloves solely for the extra 5 yard range. On the other hand, I'm sad that I never got to try out SUPER LIGHTNING SHIELD with the spellpower changes.

Edit: Still not sure about the same old four piece bonus though (-1 second off SS cooldown).
#3890SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mextro
And now the big question, when are they going to remove mp5 completely? 2.2 patch it's still 'meh' and you barely notice anything from the gains, and next patch we will barely get out of mana.

When are they going to replace it with armor penetration?
#3891SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
New 2.6 Speed Arena weapons released. Not too shabby. To take strain off of mmo-champion, I image shacked these. And cheers at 3 of our pieces having +hit



#3892SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by falonub
New 2.6 Speed Arena weapons released. Not too shabby. To take strain off of mmo-champion, I image shacked these. And cheers at 3 of our pieces having +hit



Still showing more DPS with Dragonstrike than a S3 2.6 weapon . Gap is getting more narrow though, less than 20 dps! Also, out of curiosity I tried S3 2.6 in the OH and came out 20 dps ahead of DS/Syphon. DS/S3 looks like it might be the best combination out there. Alsssssssso, 2.6 offhands are only 1125 arena points, amazing.

Last edited by rava : 10/16/07 at 3:47 AM.
#3893SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Wow, this looks great. Now they just need to remove the damn mp5 from the tier sets and item wise I'm a happy shaman. And I'm very promising, because until now, they made just every adjustment we called for.
#3894SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mano
Originally Posted by Oteb
Did the test vs halaa guards.

Completly pointless results. Without tank and longer dps periods no way to test it. IF anyone wants to tank for me on either of Euro test realms plz let me know.
I can either offer you a bear in good blue stuff (assuming he's copied over) as tank or my shaman in T4 stuff as healer on the EU PVE PTR.
#3895SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Is there no requirement on arena rating to use the new weapons?
#3896SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Rating requirements should be for buying only, therefor none on weapons themselves.
#3897SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Shakkha
Originally Posted by Atren
Rating requirements should be for buying only, therefor none on weapons themselves.
well it's written on the shoulders if you look at it.

It's mostly something that has been overlooked i guess.

That weapon is quite nice, probably the best OH now, thanks to the complete lack of any iLvel 151 one hand useable by us shamans.

The armor isn't really impressive however more sta sure, but it's still very bad dpswise you pay a high price for this sta/resiliance.
It comes down to hitting like a truck and being squishy, or add a bit more survability, and hit like a wet noddle!

Last edited by Shakkha : 10/16/07 at 4:42 AM.
#3898SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ujai
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Is there no requirement on arena rating to use the new weapons?
My thoughts exactly. Paired with
Originally Posted by rava
Alsssssssso, 2.6 offhands are only 1125 arena points, amazing.
I'll probably have to go dance around a little.
#3899SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Xoya
I modified your thing a bit, SentinelBorg:
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
The mp5 on this item is a waste of item budget for enhancement shamans. With the new talent Elemental Focus, the new and improved Water Shield and the powerful mana-regen ability Shamanistic Rage, an enhancement shaman will not go out of mana easily, even with a full shock rotation, some heals and totems. So please remove the mp5 and put more melee-focused stats on the item instead, such as agi, str, hit, crit, expertise, or armor pierce. Expertise especially would be a very beneficial stat since we have no talents which help with dodge/parry reduction, unlike rogues or warriors.

T6 set bonuses: The 2pc setbonus is very weak. Shamans already have 3 talents (Elemental Focus, Mental Quickness, Concussion), that decrease the mana costs of shocks. Also the 4pc bonus is the only non-scaling (%) T6 4pc bonus in the game.

Ideas for improvement:
- remove the 2pc bonus
- move the 4pc bonus to the 2pc slot
- make a new 4pc bonus (for example, 2% more AP from "Unleashed Rage")
Thoughts?

Edit to add: I also submitted this on PTR. For anyone curious how to easily do this, just use AtlasLoot or having someone link a T6 piece to you. Alt-left click the item link, then click "fill out a survey". Bam.
Still no post at the US shaman boards!
#3900SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by berg
Pure speculation on the Ashtongue talisman.
Behind the scenes stormstrike is likely implemented as the 2 swings and then any successful hit attempts to apply the stormstrike debuff.

If each of these affects is granted a 50% chance to apply the effect then you get...
- 5% of stormstrikes get dodged and result in nothing.
- 95% both swings hit, both swings apply stormstrike (does not stack.) This results in 4 coinflips to apply the buff.

4 coin flips = 15/16 = 93.75%
93.75% * 0.95(non dodges) = 89% proc rate which is our observed rate.


I am still 3 weeks out from the trinket but a simple way to test if this is what is happening is to have someone who has the trinket put on a 2 hander (or staff if they have no 2H talents) and go test the proc rate. If it works the way I am guessing a 2 hander should see a proc rate around 71%.

Our class is so weird.
sorry if i've missed any new developments but is this still the case, on the PTR 2.3? does it still consider dual-weild stormstrike as 2 attacks thus giving it a much higher procrate than 50%?
#3901SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Wait... 1125 points? I can buy 2 :I. They can't not have a rating requirement, all the other weapons do o.O
#3902SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
yes, I believe all season 3 weapons have a 1850 rating requirement. time to pair up with a warlock..
#3903SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
When viewed at the Vendor, the tooltip for the item says "Requires 1850 personal arena rating". If you then shift-click the item to produce an item link, the new tooltip for the item will not show the arena rating requirement. ie, when you are wearing the items on your char, they will no longer show the rating requirement, since its not required to wear them, just to buy them. Savvy?
#3904SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3xereva
Would be nice if they also added a season 1 and 2 slow offhand... but i guess that will not happen....
#3905SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by xereva
Would be nice if they also added a season 1 and 2 slow offhand... but i guess that will not happen....

You mean like... [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]?
#3906SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3xereva
You mean like... [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]?
No, i mean like the [...Gladiator's Left Render] or [...Gladiator's Chopper].

Which cost less then half of what the one-handers cost... (e.g. 1125 arena points vs 2625 arena points). For the 'older' arena weapons we only have the expensive option if we need it for our offhand... and the new one needs 1850 arena rating...
#3907SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan
he said offhand, which costs a lot less points to buy than a one-hander.
#3908SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
#3909SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by berg
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
Is it really for you or could they in actual fact be better than them in general?
anyone able to confirm? can't check right now myself.
#3910SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Did someone recalculate the Dragonspine Thropy PPM and uptime values after 2.2 patch? I can't really beleive it's still the best trinket for us as it drops from a T4 instance and it was nerfed in 3 ways with 2.2 (haste nerf, ppm nerf(?), internal cooldown added)
Dragonspine Trophy Analysis
In the end of this thread it's a bit confusing that it's still the best trinket for us or not. Some say it's 1 PPM now and in the first post of this thread we assume 1.5 PPM.
#3911SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by berg
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
#3912SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Stigmata
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3. Seems to me like 2.6/2.8 is, in practice, better than 2.6/2.6 or 2.8/2.8 simply because in pve it's easy to always be hitting with the offhand before the mainhand when using same speed weapons, which would pretty significantly reduce your dps. If you're using 2.6/2.8 or 2.7/2.8, eventually it will come 'round to a full cycle and for a good portion of the time your mainhand will be "allowed" to proc windfury before your offhand.
#3913SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
berg
Originally Posted by Stigmata
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
I am using RT/Siphon also. My testing is inconclusive but I feel that all 3 combinations of those weapons yield damage within 1% of each other.

I really appreciate the even distribution of item mods on the S3 weapons. Let us hope that Sunwell weapons have a similar 'budget friendly' distribution.

Originally Posted by Xoya
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3.
This will doubtlessly be a hot topic and something we should plan on gathering data for. My hope is that sunwell will obsolete all of them though

Last edited by berg : 10/16/07 at 1:53 PM.
#3914SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by berg
I am using RT/Siphon also. My testing is inconclusive but I feel that all 3 combinations of those weapons yield damage within 1% of each other.

I really appreciate the even distribution of item mods on the S3 weapons. Let us hope that Sunwell weapons have a similar 'budget friendly' distribution.
I use 2x Syphon for the most part, only switching to RT/Syphon for fights where the stamina helps, like Sharaz and Council.
#3915SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by berg
This is a nice change for sure. These new offhands will save us all 1500 pts. Some early playing around with yo's yields (for me) a ~2% upgrade over 2 supremus hammers which is our current best combo. Now I can buy them both on week 1
Berg, no one can buy a weapon that requires more than 1500 personal rating on week 1. Everyone has to wait until at least the next tuesday in order to purchase it. However, I do wish you luck.
My experience as enhance in arena, is that I can reach half way into the 1600s before falling like a rock. I have doubts that I can get a personal rating of 1850... which is fine, they are supposed to be arena weapons, not something for fighting Kil'jaeden. All I know is that sunwell better damnwell have a non-unique, non-sword slow one hander.
#3916SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Berg, no one can buy a weapon that requires more than 1500 personal rating on week 1. Everyone has to wait until at least the next tuesday in order to purchase it. However, I do wish you luck.
My experience as enhance in arena, is that I can reach half way into the 1600s before falling like a rock. I have doubts that I can get a personal rating of 1850... which is fine, they are supposed to be arena weapons, not something for fighting Kil'jaeden. All I know is that sunwell better damnwell have a non-unique, non-sword slow one hander.
I had not considered this. Is this verified or are you assuming that the 1850 will need to make it through one week to become valid?

The team arena score updates on the fly so I see no reason why it would prevent you from buying once your team breaks the 1850 mark on week 1.
#3917SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
These changes are really exciting as far as our PvP itemization is concerned. I'm glad my crusade to get the glove equip bonus changed was successful. The small amounts of MP5 on S3 gear aren't really enough to complain about given that the pieces are otherwise very well itemized (DPS stats split between STR, Hit, Crit, ignore armor, and yellow/red sockets on the two items with MP5). Does anyone have a link to the aforementioned "Vengeful Gladiator's Left Render"? If such a thing exists, I'm definitely going to have to figure out a way to get 1850 personal rating. (That axe graphic is pretty ugly and while I find the maces and fists cool, I couldn't find a 2.6 speed off-hand mace or fist.)

As far as PvE itemization, well, perhaps these changes show they're listening and will take the MP5 off T6 if we bother them enough?

Last edited by Rob : 10/16/07 at 2:55 PM.
#3918SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Shabadu
I use 2x Syphon for the most part, only switching to RT/Syphon for fights where the stamina helps, like Sharaz and Council.
I can't seem to get your armory to load, but aren't you a smith? Are you really seeing better results dual wielding Syphon(every test I've done and sim I've ran have Dragonstrike coming out 2+% ahead)? I'm not asking to criticize, but to find insights that maybe 30 min periods on Blasted Lands mobs or 10000 hours on sims aren't showing me.

For Rob:

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...ons/render.jpg
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...ns/chopper.jpg

Doesn't have the mace but it's basically the same thing.

Show your support: WoW Forums -> Enhancement Shaman T6

Last edited by rava : 10/16/07 at 3:05 PM.
#3919SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
edit: Rava beat me to the punch ~_~ :P ^ and @ malan, yeah I realized that; and I questioned my mental capacity after that :P Guess I'm just tired
#3920SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
That's an axe not a mace.
#3921SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Found my own link to the "Left Render" at WoR.

It looks to me like in these screenshots the MH weapons are currently not requiring an 1850 rating to equip. Compare the above shot to this one showing the Right Ripper for comparison; the item icon isn't overlaid with red to show it's not equippable and the "Requires 1850" isn't appearing in the text. This is a very interesting change as well.
#3922SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Argh, nvm. You just proved the people in the PTR topic wrong by the way.
#3923SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3generalanders
Has anyone tested the hidden cooldown effect with totem'ing the mainhand and windfurying the offhand(are they unlinked)? What about a weaponswap that quickly throws the offhand into main for the WF totem buff, and then swaps back? I know the second option would be a lot of extra hassle.
#3924SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
From the first post:
Do not use WF Totem instead of WF Weapon on your MH. While you may ~think~ it will help you avoid the WF cooldown problem, the totem isn't providing anywhere near the benefit you'll get from the weapon imbue.
WF Totem has the following issues: no elemental weapons bonus (40% multiple), only one extra attack (200% multiple), lesser AP bonus (scalar). Each MH WF Totem hit would be 100% extra damage or so compared to a normal attack, and has only one chance of proc'ing flurry, any weapon procs, and UR. Each MH WF imbue hit would be 280% extra damage or so compare to a normal attack, and has 2 chances of proc'ing those things.
In a very very simplified way of looking at it, you'd have to proc MH WF 2.8 as many times using the totem as you do using the imbue, for it to be worth it.
If you are going to go to that much trouble to get the WFT imbue on the offhand, why not just use Flametongue?
#3925SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Another request (starting to feel like a spammer here). As I suck on macros:
Macro to:
(equip totem, will this trigger GDC? if yes, do it after startattack)
Start attack
Stormstrike

and repeat.

I've tried some experimenting but macro simply stops attack after 2-3 push.

Thanks a lot.
#3926SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Another request (starting to feel like a spammer here). As I suck on macros:
Macro to:
(equip totem, will this trigger GDC? if yes, do it after startattack)
Start attack
Stormstrike

and repeat.

I've tried some experimenting but macro simply stops attack after 2-3 push.

Thanks a lot.
#3927SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
If you wanted to do something like that, it would probably have to be a castsequence macro.

/startattack
/castsequence Stormstrike, Totem Thingy

Press that twice whenever stormstrike is up and your totem will get equipped while the GCD from Stormstrike is still cooling down.
#3928SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lujaar
Some quick, sloppy napkinmath on the ele vs resto thing:

With UR and stormstrike up I was earthshocking for ~1100 on PTR. With a 5% crit rate (2.5% more damage) and 16% miss rate, my earthshocks are going to average 930 damage.

Shocking every 6 seconds is 155 DPS. Shocking every 6.3 seconds is 147 DPS (one in five shocks delayed one GCD because your shock came off cooldown at the same time as stormstrike). Shocking every 5 seconds is 186 DPS. So Reverb is worth 39 DPS.


For comparison, Nature's Guidance is 3% more white damage and 3% more shock damage. (Really, the 3% more white damage thing is a gross oversimplification - the extra attacks can't crit, but they may be able to proc windfury. It's close enough to 3% white damage that I'm going to just go with that.) But anyway, 3% more white damage, 3% more shock damage. Last I checked something like 60% of my melee damage was white damage, and I average about 1000 melee DPS (shocks excluded, obviously). So the 3% hit is worth ~18 DPS. The 3% spell hit is going to be about 5 DPS.

So just comparing reverb vs nature's guidance, reverb comes out 16 DPS ahead. Factoring in Concussion and Call of Flame, I'd expect a ~25 DPS increase from going elemental over resto.

Whether 25 DPS + elemental warding is more valuable than cheaper totems + faster HW + imp reincarnate isn't a numbers question and can only be answered by the individual player.
#3929SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
For me the kicker is improved totem range. In my opinion, totem range should be 30' standard and expandable with talent.

Out of curiosity, did the elemental testing include the +3% spell hit from that talent? Since we have no spell hit, I'm curious how much difference that makes in shock resists. I secretly want the Ele/Enh build to work as well, primarily for Reverb and elemental warding. I just cringe at giving up the totem range and natures guidance.
#3930SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I can confirm from checking out the vendor myself that lot of weapons have no rating requirement on item link OR on mouseover. A lot of them on the other hand, do.
#3931SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Definitely looked at the wrong forum, but frequent the suggestion forums!
#3932SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Curiosity: Stonebreaker totem says "Shock spells have..." does that mean the spell needs to be cast, or the spell needs to hit? I am guessing that it needs to hit, but the text doesn't indicate that.
#3933SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3falonub
Guys....this isn't the pally forums I know, but after widespread complaining and/or just bringing it up, paladins now get a threat reduction talent in their retribution tree. 30% reduced threat. While we have our threat reduction, if enough people petition about mp5 on t6, or the set bonus of our t6 or even our talents such as anticipation/toughness we may get it changed. It's possible.
WoW Forums -> Retribution Threat Change
#3934SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
DamageMeters: <DPS> report on 14/3 sources:
#01: Crueltii 1092.8
#02: Searing Totem VII 65.0
#03: Fire Nova Totem VII 0.6
Combat duration = 1791.82 seconds.
Total = 1158.4 (1158.4 visible)

Ok so thats the stats on the immortal mob in Blastedlands for the ele/enh spec for a full WF duration (30mins).

The mob level is 54 non elite btw.

Need to balance my macros cast sequence for this spec so Im shocking in the right spots.. I was finding there was times I was waiting on the SS cooldown to finish while the shocks were up. That could push some more damage.

recount was showing my crit rate for melee vs a lvl 54 as 33.5% vs 29.99% actual. To give you a idea of the extra kinda damage hitting a 54 would be. So Id say maybe drop 100 dps from the 1158.4 possibly more.

DamageMeters: <DPS> report on 14/2 sources:
#01: Crueltii 1063.9
#02: Searing Totem VII 58.0
Combat duration = 1807.55 seconds.
Total = 1121.9 (1121.9 visible)

Was the damage from the enh resto spec on the same mobs.

Now as you can see its not a big damage difference but I think it something thats scales more with AP (spelldamage) than with just the hit incease. So the shocks and searing totem will start to do more damage when raidbuffed (yeah durr I know). Its had to see the actual damage difference of having that extra hit because of the mobs level.

If I can work out the best timing for my cast sequence for the ele/enh spec so i dont waste proc chances Im thinking that the damage will be higher again.
#3935SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Blasted lands mobs skew results. There's no real reason to use them anymore.
#3936SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aeolian
The loss of the +hit from the Restoration spec will hurt you much more versus a mob of equal level or a boss level mob then it will against a level 54 mob in the blasted lands. You cannot effectively test the difference in the two spec's without taking each one into an instance and testing it. I would recommend something like Morogrim since you can stand stationary behind him for most of the fight. Unless you find the gear to replace the hit lost by those talents your miss rate will increase dramatically. And replacing that hit with gear is going to decrease your DPS because you cannot focus on other stats that would increase it.

If you were to have gear at Stigmata's level, where you get a great deal of Hit Rating from the gear without any serious loss in DPS, I could see the switch for the additional damage, but even then your losing out on +Spell Hit and the increased totem range. That +Spell Hit will effect your shock DPS as well, even after 2.3.
#3937SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Cruelty
Yep thats currently what im thinking now after nutting it out some more. What I really need is some good raiding results to back up which spec will be the best.
To give you all a idea in difference of dps vs the blastedlands (epeen stroking mobs) I got invited to a ZA lastnight. Using the standard enh/resto spec (a few differences for the Mental quickness) I was at the 700-750 (fire totems included) dps mark on the trash and bosses.
It would proberly be higher if It was just data from the bossfights but I wanted to see the difference in my missrate with the nerf to the orc weapon racial.
Few things I would like to mention is that with the upped threat reduction for melee to 30% and salv (dont leave home without it) threat was not a issue for me at all. If I did accidently pull agro because I started on a mob early I just used Shamanistic Rage for the damage reduction as well.
With the Focused casting (60% cheaper shocks) and the new water sheild mana was never a issue, I rarely had to use SR for mana back.
Only gripe is that the spelldamage is not correctly reflected in the toon sheet but I have fed that back to blizz.
#3938SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Neithan
Panny as I cba to set up PowerAuras myself, would you be so kind and put a config file somewhere to download?

Thanks!
Here's my PowerAura lua file: RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting I assume this is where configs are stored.

Originally Posted by Malan
That's an axe not a mace.
The Arena Maces look like giant bouquets anyway.

Last edited by panny : 10/17/07 at 12:57 AM.
#3939SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Minel
I have bin browsing through alot of forums here lately since i rerolled an enhancement shammy from a rogue... And a question i find not really answered is, how effective it is to use the old GM weapon wich has a speed on 2.9 in the OH over lets say a weapon like netherbane or the merci 2.6 weapons.

This is when im using dragonstrike in my MH (2.7) speed. so it just confuses me abit that, we need a slow offhand is clearly stated but if its a 2.6 it will still hit first in most cases and steal the MH WF proc.

So what i would really love is, if someone could throw some info with some theorycraft telling me that im totaly wrong using the old GM weapon in OH or not. Since im not that good with math and stuff i would just love if someone could help me out.
#3940SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
Toss it in the sim, and find out.
#3941SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
For me the kicker is improved totem range. In my opinion, totem range should be 30' standard and expandable with talent.

Out of curiosity, did the elemental testing include the +3% spell hit from that talent? Since we have no spell hit, I'm curious how much difference that makes in shock resists. I secretly want the Ele/Enh build to work as well, primarily for Reverb and elemental warding. I just cringe at giving up the totem range and natures guidance.
Assume a highly geared shaman, 20% hit from gear incl. enh tree +hit, 40% crit, 28% base miss for dw, 6% dodge, 6.25% glancing factored in

the closed attacktable looks like (100-28-6-6.25+20+40) = 119.75
now increasing hit +3, it is 122.75, the dps increase in % is now 2.5% for white dmg, so something in the range of 1.25-1.5% total dmg
as for shocks, basic resist is 17%, so getting 3% spellhit, increases our factor to 0.86, so the dmg increase for shocks is 0.86/0.83 = 3.6%. Assuming 10% total dps from shocks, this is not even 0.5% of total dmg.
Nature's Guidance is worth some 1.5-2.0% in dps for a fully geared enh shaman

Lujaar's math is fine, except that spellmiss is actually 17% against lvl 73, does not change the result that much though.
Technically you can not beat Reverbaration in DPS increase and as he said, it's up to you if it is worth for you.
#3942SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by rava
I can't seem to get your armory to load, but aren't you a smith? Are you really seeing better results dual wielding Syphon(every test I've done and sim I've ran have Dragonstrike coming out 2+% ahead)? I'm not asking to criticize, but to find insights that maybe 30 min periods on Blasted Lands mobs or 10000 hours on sims aren't showing me.
That's a question i've been asking myself a lot.

Being a Macesmith myself, i wonder when i see Blacksmith enhancement shamans using rising tide, or Syphons. Do you guys value those over Dragonstrike?

I can imagine the axesmith replacing wicked edge by Rising Tide, since it's simply better, but what about macesmithes what would you use?

Originally Posted by Xoya
Originally Posted by Stigmata
In practice i'm finding RT/Syphon to be better than 2 x Syphon. Yo's sim doesnt agree, but then sims are only a guide.
By the same token, I am wondering if S3/Syphon will be better than S3/S3. Seems to me like 2.6/2.8 is, in practice, better than 2.6/2.6 or 2.8/2.8 simply because in pve it's easy to always be hitting with the offhand before the mainhand when using same speed weapons, which would pretty significantly reduce your dps. If you're using 2.6/2.8 or 2.7/2.8, eventually it will come 'round to a full cycle and for a good portion of the time your mainhand will be "allowed" to proc windfury before your offhand.
An equally interesting reading.

I've never tested this myself yet, but i had the feeling having both hands at the same speed was actually a good thing for flurry reasons. Now i read the contrary i'm a bit confused, are there some parses confirming your feelings?
#3943SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Mano
this is using the general AEP from the first post, as it's more or less general thinking

The chance to critical strike increases by 1% per 22.1 critical strike rating points at level 70, thus using 1 crit rating as 2 AEP, 1% Crit is ~44AEP. (which actually seems pretty high?)

It's 1% per 15.8 hit rating points at level 70. general AEP for hit rating is 1.17. The old bonus is ~3% hit and 0.2% crit (plus whatever else), which is equal to ~64.26EP(plus whatever else). Pretty steep nerf which might actually value hit rating a bit more for Orcs now.


According to the first post, [Wicked Edge of the Planes] is worth 94 AEP for non-Orcs, [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] is worth 84 AEP, while [Dragonstrike] is worth 98AEP.

Comparing the two BS weapons, the axe would still totally destroy the mace it seems. Actually practically any axe would destroy anything other except for outgeared stuff (when coming from AEP alone, not factoring DPS)?


Something totally different: has anyone checked on PTR if the BS weapons still are MH only? I've copied my char over, but didn't think to check it out.

Last edited by Mano : 10/17/07 at 7:55 AM. Reason: itemlink wrong
#3944SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Veritas17
Alright so are you saying that the wicked edge of the planes is actually better than the dragonstrike still? I know, i'm a tad slow as it's 7:01am here where i'm at and i've been sick the past two days without sleep.

That said, i'm trying to find out more about what AEP is exactly thru the archives so forgive me my noobiness.

edit: I looked for you and no, they didn't make the BS weapons one handed. :/

Last edited by Veritas17 : 10/17/07 at 8:15 AM. Reason: answering previous question
#3945SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Shakkha
That's a question i've been asking myself a lot.

Being a Macesmith myself, i wonder when i see Blacksmith enhancement shamans using rising tide, or Syphons. Do you guys value those over Dragonstrike?

I can imagine the axesmith replacing wicked edge by Rising Tide, since it's simply better, but what about macesmithes what would you use?
I replaced dragonstrike with Syphon when I got my second then replaced the Syphon with RT when I got that, i'm sure there are arguments for any combination being better, but I think it comes down to personal preference. And I prefer RT/Syphon.
#3946SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Shakkha
I've never tested this myself yet, but i had the feeling having both hands at the same speed was actually a good thing for flurry reasons. Now i read the contrary i'm a bit confused, are there some parses confirming your feelings?
For flurry reasons, in a perfect situation, same speed is always going to be better if you can get your weapons attacking at the same time because the game has to fudge the numbers a bit to compensate for lag. However, using two same speed weapons can seriously nerf your windfury damage if you're always attacking with your offhanding first, which you will be doing if you begin attacking outside of melee range of the mob. That's most likely why, in practice, slow/slower works out better for damage than same speed weapons.
#3947SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Xoya
However, using two same speed weapons can seriously nerf your windfury damage if you're always attacking with your offhanding first, which you will be doing if you begin attacking outside of melee range of the mob.
This is a fallacy -- the same thing has an equal chance of happening with MH procs. Using the same speed weapons is simply more subject to streakiness due to this factor; different speeds will eventually force the cycle to be broken and can result in more consistent damage. In truth it matters little because Stormstrike always considers the MH to hit first and thus get first chance to proc. You'll rarely see the same hand proc more than a few times in a row, and it ends up being more of a coin toss chance as to which hand will go off next with the odds slightly skewed in the main hand's favor.
#3948SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Kurisu
Mind you the adjusted values of AEP for Orcs will no longer mean anything since their racial will work different, just take the weapons natural AEP and add 1% crit level of AEP to it. Basically your just adding in 35.2-44 AEP on average (i believe since it is just 1.6/2 times 22 for the crit rating).
#3949SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This is a fallacy -- the same thing has an equal chance of happening with MH procs. Using the same speed weapons is simply more subject to streakiness due to this factor; different speeds will eventually force the cycle to be broken and can result in more consistent damage. In truth it matters little because Stormstrike always considers the MH to hit first and thus get first chance to proc. You'll rarely see the same hand proc more than a few times in a row, and it ends up being more of a coin toss chance as to which hand will go off next with the odds slightly skewed in the main hand's favor.
The more consistent damage from using different speed weapons is probably what inclines people to use, say, Rising Tide in the mainhand instead of a second Syphon. You have to also take into account those who stormstrike every time the cooldown is up regardless of whether windfury is cooled down. They do this to get the stormstrike debuff back up more quickly as well as totem twist more easily (using a SS/WF/GOA macro), and as such there is no guarantee that any given stormstrike will even be able to proc a windfury.

My main intent in discussing this is to figure out why people are, in practice, seeing larger DPS gains using 2.6/2.8 vs. 2.8/2.8 so what we can decide whether S3/S3 is going to be better or worse than S3/Syphon when Arena Season 3 comes out.
#3950SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
It probably has something to do with how a 2.6 drops to exactly 2.0 speed when flurried, which is one of the sweet spots for WF proc rate.
#3951SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Expertise Rating -- looks like it's going to be a great way to spend your itemization. 15.6 Expertise Rating for 1% reduction in dodge and a further 1% reduction in parry (for those fights where you can't control the mobs' facing).

Seems to me it may even be more valuable than Haste Rating or Strength.
#3952SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Expertise Rating -- looks like it's going to be a great way to spend your itemization. 15.6 Expertise Rating for 1% reduction in dodge and a further 1% reduction in parry (for those fights where you can't control the mobs' facing).

Seems to me it may even be more valuable than Haste Rating or Strength.
Have I missed some items that are worth using other than the vashj belt? While I would very much like to get expertise rating I wouldn't trade either of the other two items i've seen.
#3953SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Shoulders of the Stranger will have Expertise instead of dagger rating.
#3954SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Anyone reckon BT weapons will be buffed? I'm wondering whether I should get either a RT or another Syphon for my MH (mainhanding Dragonstrike atm). I'm most likely getting a s3 axe for my MH in 2.3 unless BT weapons get buffed.
Then again, I don't know whether s3 will beat my Dragonstrike yet.. need to do some maths on that I suppose.
#3955SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
It's quite difficult to know what is the best combination, cause if a 2.6 drops to 2.0 with flurry, shouldn't you take into account haste and moongoose too ?
#3956SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai
Anyone reckon BT weapons will be buffed?
I'd expect a 1.5 DPS bump, but on the other hand, I'm not sure why they haven't already done that on PTRs, so maybe not.
#3957SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Illundai
Anyone reckon BT weapons will be buffed? I'm wondering whether I should get either a RT or another Syphon for my MH (mainhanding Dragonstrike atm). I'm most likely getting a s3 axe for my MH in 2.3 unless BT weapons get buffed.
Then again, I don't know whether s3 will beat my Dragonstrike yet.. need to do some maths on that I suppose.
There's still alot of time due on the PTR, as well as them mentioning adding more class changes as the PTR develops. I wouldn't put it past them to give BT gear a once over.
#3958SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mox
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I replaced dragonstrike with Syphon when I got my second then replaced the Syphon with RT when I got that, i'm sure there are arguments for any combination being better, but I think it comes down to personal preference. And I prefer RT/Syphon.
I'm with stig here, been using RT/Syphon for afew months now and am very happy with how high I can sustain my dps.
#3959SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vapor1551
T4 craftable weapons?

I was wondering if anyone has heard or seen anything about upgrading the T3 blacksmithing weapons to a 4th tier. To at least keep the damage up with the S3 weapons, otherwise would there be a reason to not DW the S3 weapons?
#3960SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by vapor1551
I was wondering if anyone has heard or seen anything about upgrading the T3 blacksmithing weapons to a 4th tier. To at least keep the damage up with the S3 weapons, otherwise would there be a reason to not DW the S3 weapons?
Since the season 3 itemization is where Tier 6 would be, you likely won't see this until the Sunwell.
#3961SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It probably has something to do with how a 2.6 drops to exactly 2.0 speed when flurried, which is one of the sweet spots for WF proc rate.
Possibly, but what about when considering the added effects of passive haste? With the passive haste I currently have equipped, my 2.8 speed weapon goes down to 2.63, so wouldn't two 2.8 speed weapons hasted to ~2.6 be equivalent or better than 2.6/2.8? Perhaps not, if we're considering that we -don't- want the offhand to proc as often as the mainhand. They should clearly introduce a 2.9 speed offhand just for enhancement shamans.
#3962SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
2.63 doesn't cleanly divide in to 6. Even with a double mongoose proc up, you're not dead on the 2.0 sweet spot when flurried.

If you had a 2.7, on the other hand...
#3963SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Sorry why is 2.0 the sweet spot? (probably being stupid here) I would have thought 1.5 would the sweet spot.
#3964SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
2.0 would be sweet spot i guess for additional Bloodlust to stay above 1.5? Otherwise no idea really.
#3965SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Malan
Shoulders of the Stranger will have Expertise instead of dagger rating.
Great another item that cannot be gained unless you still go SSC, I hope they introduce some way for shaman to get expertise (replace toughness or anticipation) or create some new items in a decent instance.

Originally Posted by Atren
2.0 would be sweet spot i guess for additional Bloodlust to stay above 1.5? Otherwise no idea really.
Not really, it has been proven that there is no overall dps loos from dropping below 1.5, it was just a hypothetical situation.
#3966SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
2+2+2 = 6, which means that if the first swing procs WF then the third swing in the sequence is eligible to proc WF the instant it is up.
#3967SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
2+2+2 = 6, which means that if the first swing procs WF then the third swing in the sequence is eligible to proc WF the instant it is up.
Anywhere between 1.5-2.0 has that chance though doesn't it?
#3968SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
WoW Forums -> Enhancement Shaman T6 needs your love.
#3969SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Have I missed some items that are worth using other than the vashj belt? While I would very much like to get expertise rating I wouldn't trade either of the other two items i've seen.
I haven't looked at all at the math, but the expertise/hit-rating trinket looks interesting.
Brooch of Deftness - Items - World of Warcraft

48 stam
21 expertise
22 hit rating

That's a lot of swing-connecting love in one trinket. 1.35% of all attacks (from the expertise), and an additional 1.41% of white attacks (from the hit)
#3970SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Brooch of Deftness
Binds when picked up
Neck
+48 Stamina
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 22.
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 21.

You mean neck.
#3971SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Anywhere between 1.5-2.0 has that chance though doesn't it?
If I've got a 2.0 weapon (which really means, I've got a 2.6 weapon flurried) in both the main hand and the offhand my swing pattern will look like this if I don't synchronize the attacks:

MH - 1 sec delay - OH - 1 sec delay - MH - 1 sec delay - OH
Basically, swings evenly occurring at 1.0 intervals. What this means is that as soon as WF's timer expires, you swing and that swing is eligible to proc Windfury. With an insane streak of luck, you could go MH-OH-MH-OH in the span of 12 seconds. Adding or removing any time to this introduces dead time in which you're landing swings that are either too early (in the case of Mongoose) or too late (in the case of a 2.7 or 2.8) and you aren't making optimum use of the WF timer. There's further issue introduced when you're mixing speeds, as you'll cyclically have one weapon or the other as "dominant" in their swing-first chance, which can lead to very streaky results.

Naturally the fact that Flurry isn't up all the time screws with this horribly and means you'll never really see this, but it's the reason that 2.0 is such a hot spot when you can keep Flurry up for any period of time.
#3972SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Xoya
My main intent in discussing this is to figure out why people are, in practice, seeing larger DPS gains using 2.6/2.8 vs. 2.8/2.8 so what we can decide whether S3/S3 is going to be better or worse than S3/Syphon when Arena Season 3 comes out.
I still feel that 2.8/2.6 is slightly superior to 2.6/2.8. This does assume your waiting for WF timer to SS though, but that has also been shown to be higher damage then SSing right away.
#3973SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Great another item that cannot be gained unless you still go SSC, I hope they introduce some way for shaman to get expertise (replace toughness or anticipation) or create some new items in a decent instance.
unless they fix our tier 0 (or tier 1 if you like) talents, the typical spec that would pick up both the new 5 pt talent and retain all the points we normally put in resto would be hard to maintain. A talent that good would be hard to pass up, if it was in anticipation that was changed, the basic spec is maintained while dropping guardian totems and weapon totems. In any case I would wish they would give us at least a weak version of the talents that reduce the offhand damage penalty.
#3974SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Just out of curiosity, since 14 ap == 1dps, why haven't we re-calculated weapons to include this in our AEP? Feel free to ridicule me mercilessly if this was answered somewhere back in the thread. If it's just because no one has bothered to do it, I'll take the time and make the conversions.
#3975SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
14ap = 1 dps if all you do is autoattack with 100% hit rate, 0% dodges/parries, 0% blocks, no glancing blows, 0% crit rate, and single wield weapons.
#3976SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• fangar
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Have I missed some items that are worth using other than the vashj belt? While I would very much like to get expertise rating I wouldn't trade either of the other two items i've seen.
Not that it helps you at all Stig, but the Gloves off of Al'ar (Searing Grip) have what translated to 4 weapon skill. I haven't scoured all the ZA drops, so there may be more there.
#3977SourcePosted onundefined
#4001SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
well im just thinking, after that news from eyonix, and the fact that next patch our mana conservation is crazy anyway. That more dmg should be used over mana conservation.

Well, at least in my opinion.
#4002SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
well im just thinking, after that news from eyonix, and the fact that next patch our mana conservation is crazy anyway. That more dmg should be used over mana conservation.

Well, at least in my opinion.
I'd rather drop Improved Reincarnation, that is simply due to the fact that I haven't ankh'd in 2 months during a PVE encounter(which will surely change when Sunwell hits). The change to totems could be a long time away, I really wouldn't expect it for a while and it's still hella mana intensive, so I'll be keeping points in Totemic Focus. I'm pretty sure that if I really tried I could still burn through a mana pool in 2.3, we'll see once it comes out though.
#4003SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
One thing that is kinda annoying is how we are stuck with hunters with mail. Weapon skill was useless for hunters (well, beside ranged ones which was useless for us) and expertise will be useless for hunter. I guess that means that there wont be any mail with expertise on it, so if we want it we need to go for leather. That on other hand might take 3-4 drops before we even get chance to get it (as it goes to rogues first).

Enough rambling, what i was interested in was does Flame Shock dot effect proc the new totem? Unless i missed it i have not seen that mentioned?
#4004SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Here's my issue with the upcoming twisting change - it removes the ability for enhance shaman to put forth extra effort to get a small but significant boost in their party's performance.

With no twisting, a shaman needs to:

1) Play the combat metagame: Position himself behind the mob if possible, select the right target, watch aggro, and watch for environmental damage.

2) Stormstrike once every 10 seconds.

3) Shock once every 6 seconds.

All melee dps has to be concerned with point #1, so I will disregard this for comparison purposes. My issue is with points #2 and #3.

Our actions are completely predictable. If you're on target, you know exactly what you're going to be doing 10, 20, 30, etc seconds from now, and 6, 12, 18, etc seconds from now. You know that you will be casting 0.1 stormstrikes per second, and 0.17 shocks per second, for a grand total of .27 actions per second.

In fact, the only decisions you'll be making that other melee aren't are:
1) to check for totem auras - are totems active, and are you in range?
2) many people don't play this game, but "do I stormstrike while my wf cd is active, or do I wait".

Compare this to what rogues do.

First, due to Ruthlessness, Relentless strikes, and Combat Potency (or Mutilate if they're that spec), a rogue does *not* necessarily know what he will be doing in x seconds, even on a stationary target. He will be managing his energy and combo points, while doing the standard melee metagame. Moreover, the rogue will be using rupture every 16 seconds, Slice n Dice every 16 seconds, and sinister striking 4 or 5 times every 16 seconds.

That's 6 actions every 16 seconds (to be conservative), which is 6/16 = .375 actions per second. Compare that to the .27 actions per second that we have in a non-twisting scenario. They are doing 40% more than we are in combat, and actually making decisions, not just pressing predetermined buttons: SS, FS, SS, ES, FS, SS... ... ...

I did not like twisting when I started. It required a lot more effort for a small gain. It grew on me, however, and I've enjoyed the feeling that by expending a lot more effort, I'm helping my group achieve that extra x% that could make a difference in the encounter.

The upcoming twisting change will have the result of limiting us to making close to 0 non-deterministic decisions, and take away the ability to interact with combat as much as we are now. I think that's a shame, especially for an advantage that Blizzard has called "not a big deal".

So, there's my piece. The mod downloads have been removed, as I wouldn't want people to start twisting now since the ability is going away. I sincerely hope that Blizzard adds some additional proactive mechanic to let shamans feel like we have more control over how well we and our group performs.
#4005SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Rob - I see what you're saying about the 28% Astral Winds value. I went to change that and realized that all the math below that will need to be changed as well, but I really don't understand where Panny got some of those values since he skipped a lot of the derivation when he posted it here. Can you lend a hand and clear up what that section should look like now?

Also Pitbuller just sent me a PM with his calculations from this post - http://elitistjerks.com/516315-post3989.html
Is there a consensus on this?
He states:
Main Hand Weapons
1 weapon dps = 8.48 aep

Off-Hand Weapons
1 weapon dps = 4.24 aep

Last edited by Malan : 10/18/07 at 10:02 AM.
#4006SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
You didn't have to be a rocket scientist to see twisting wasn't intended.
#4007SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
More Eyonix Musings on Totem Twisting

Technical limitations coupled with "not a big deal" implies to me that it will be changed in the distant future. I'm not going to get back into the moral discussion over it, but the "I told you so" is very misplaced, we all new it very likely wasn't intended =P
#4008SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Atren
One thing that is kinda annoying is how we are stuck with hunters with mail. Weapon skill was useless for hunters (well, beside ranged ones which was useless for us) and expertise will be useless for hunter. I guess that means that there wont be any mail with expertise on it, so if we want it we need to go for leather. That on other hand might take 3-4 drops before we even get chance to get it (as it goes to rogues first).

Enough rambling, what i was interested in was does Flame Shock dot effect proc the new totem? Unless i missed it i have not seen that mentioned?
No, it doesn't. But talking about shocks. I thought a bit about optimal, but not too complicated spell rotations.

I tried that one on the PTR, including WF/TA Totem Twisting:

SS, ES, WF, TA, WS, FS, SS, WF, TA, ES, WS

It fits into one /castsequence macro and you have one free GCD (or without the last WS two) free for other things. Even with the heavy PTR lag, I did shock at average every 7.4 sec in a 20 min test, fighting a Servant of Grol. Mana was absolutely no problem, wasn't able to drop below 4k. My DPS was 1433.
The only problem is, that the distance between the second WF totem and the next one after the first Earth Shock is a bit too long (11.5 s or more). But you could change it to:
SS, ES, WF, TA, WS, FS, SS, WS, WF, ES, TA
This would increase the uptime of WF, but would decrease the uptime of TA and puts your shock before the next aggro-reduce phase.
#4009SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Disquette
Here's my issue with the upcoming twisting change - it removes the ability for enhance shaman to put forth extra effort to get a small but significant boost in their party's performance.

With no twisting, a shaman needs to:

1) Play the combat metagame: Position himself behind the mob if possible, select the right target, watch aggro, and watch for environmental damage.

2) Stormstrike once every 10 seconds.

3) Shock once every 6 seconds.

All melee dps has to be concerned with point #1, so I will disregard this for comparison purposes. My issue is with points #2 and #3.

Our actions are completely predictable. If you're on target, you know exactly what you're going to be doing 10, 20, 30, etc seconds from now, and 6, 12, 18, etc seconds from now. You know that you will be casting 0.1 stormstrikes per second, and 0.17 shocks per second, for a grand total of .27 actions per second.

In fact, the only decisions you'll be making that other melee aren't are:
1) to check for totem auras - are totems active, and are you in range?
2) many people don't play this game, but "do I stormstrike while my wf cd is active, or do I wait".

Compare this to what rogues do.

First, due to Ruthlessness, Relentless strikes, and Combat Potency (or Mutilate if they're that spec), a rogue does *not* necessarily know what he will be doing in x seconds, even on a stationary target. He will be managing his energy and combo points, while doing the standard melee metagame. Moreover, the rogue will be using rupture every 16 seconds, Slice n Dice every 16 seconds, and sinister striking 4 or 5 times every 16 seconds.

That's 6 actions every 16 seconds (to be conservative), which is 6/16 = .375 actions per second. Compare that to the .27 actions per second that we have in a non-twisting scenario. They are doing 40% more than we are in combat, and actually making decisions, not just pressing predetermined buttons: SS, FS, SS, ES, FS, SS... ... ...

I did not like twisting when I started. It required a lot more effort for a small gain. It grew on me, however, and I've enjoyed the feeling that by expending a lot more effort, I'm helping my group achieve that extra x% that could make a difference in the encounter.

The upcoming twisting change will have the result of limiting us to making close to 0 non-deterministic decisions, and take away the ability to interact with combat as much as we are now. I think that's a shame, especially for an advantage that Blizzard has called "not a big deal".

So, there's my piece. The mod downloads have been removed, as I wouldn't want people to start twisting now since the ability is going away. I sincerely hope that Blizzard adds some additional proactive mechanic to let shamans feel like we have more control over how well we and our group performs.
Yeah, im disappointed that they are changing totem twisting. Its one of those things that seperate the good from the bad, and its gonna be alot more boring to be enhance when it changes.
#4010SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Sackobones
Out of curiosity and absolute fear of skimming 160 pages of this thread, is there a point with slow weapons that stacking Haste and moving to say Rockbiter or Flametongue on your weapons would generate more dps than a slow swinging Windfury method?

I only ask because A: I have an alt that can do 10 mans on occasion and ZA is a possible outlet for gear for him. B: ZA is dropping a lot of haste gear on us.
#4011SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
and moving to say Rockbiter or Flametongue
The answer to this question is, was, and always will be: no.
#4012SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
Originally Posted by Disquette
Here's my issue with the upcoming twisting change - it removes the ability for enhance shaman to put forth extra effort to get a small but significant boost in their party's performance.
I strongly agree that Enhancement (and Elemental) need depth added to the class. The other hybrids have dps cycles and reactive abilities. We simply spam abilities on cooldowns and in the end there is very little difference between a good and a bad player.

I do not think totem twisting satisfies this need. Anything that can be 'solved' with a cast sequence macro is not interesting or complicated enough to add real depth.

We need new combat abilities that are not just used on cooldowns. There has to be right and wrong times to use them so that there is a difference between someone who knows what they are doing and one who does not.
#4013SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Unless we get a talent that converts our mana bar into an energy bar I don't see how it would be possible to give us the same type of system. Its not like a mage does anything different either, they have a few spells they can cast non stop, and others that are on cycled cooldowns. The only dps classes who have true depth are those with an energy bar.

@Aett - you're wrong. Flat out wrong, no other way to put it. Moogle and I had both been saying for almost a year now that the twisting was obviously not intended, was not a creative use of game mechanics, and was going to get fixed. Thats what the "told ya so" was about, and it was definitely justified.

In other news, Shamanistic Rage and Itemization concerns have been acknowledged - WoW Forums -> Eyonix = MIA?
and also the early enhance tiers may get tweaked in WoLK - WoW Forums -> Spirit Weapons fix in 2.3?

Last edited by Malan : 10/18/07 at 11:15 AM.
#4014SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Disquette
Here's my issue with the upcoming twisting change - it removes the ability for enhance shaman to put forth extra effort to get a small but significant boost in their party's performance.

With no twisting, a shaman needs to:

1) Play the combat metagame: Position himself behind the mob if possible, select the right target, watch aggro, and watch for environmental damage.

2) Stormstrike once every 10 seconds.

3) Shock once every 6 seconds.

All melee dps has to be concerned with point #1, so I will disregard this for comparison purposes. My issue is with points #2 and #3.

Our actions are completely predictable. If you're on target, you know exactly what you're going to be doing 10, 20, 30, etc seconds from now, and 6, 12, 18, etc seconds from now. You know that you will be casting 0.1 stormstrikes per second, and 0.17 shocks per second, for a grand total of .27 actions per second.

In fact, the only decisions you'll be making that other melee aren't are:
1) to check for totem auras - are totems active, and are you in range?
2) many people don't play this game, but "do I stormstrike while my wf cd is active, or do I wait".

Compare this to what rogues do.

First, due to Ruthlessness, Relentless strikes, and Combat Potency (or Mutilate if they're that spec), a rogue does *not* necessarily know what he will be doing in x seconds, even on a stationary target. He will be managing his energy and combo points, while doing the standard melee metagame. Moreover, the rogue will be using rupture every 16 seconds, Slice n Dice every 16 seconds, and sinister striking 4 or 5 times every 16 seconds.

That's 6 actions every 16 seconds (to be conservative), which is 6/16 = .375 actions per second. Compare that to the .27 actions per second that we have in a non-twisting scenario. They are doing 40% more than we are in combat, and actually making decisions, not just pressing predetermined buttons: SS, FS, SS, ES, FS, SS... ... ...

I did not like twisting when I started. It required a lot more effort for a small gain. It grew on me, however, and I've enjoyed the feeling that by expending a lot more effort, I'm helping my group achieve that extra x% that could make a difference in the encounter.

The upcoming twisting change will have the result of limiting us to making close to 0 non-deterministic decisions, and take away the ability to interact with combat as much as we are now. I think that's a shame, especially for an advantage that Blizzard has called "not a big deal".

So, there's my piece. The mod downloads have been removed, as I wouldn't want people to start twisting now since the ability is going away. I sincerely hope that Blizzard adds some additional proactive mechanic to let shamans feel like we have more control over how well we and our group performs.
I hate totem twisting, its one of the most retarded "use of broken machanics" ever.

I rarely do it, mainly because when i've killed illidan 3+ times I'm not interested in excelling by 0.1% of total raid dps or 1% its boring and repetative, and far easier to slip into auto pilot, spam 2 and 3 and q and e every 2 minutes.

Admittedly I would like to have more to do, but like Malan said, unless we get a energy bar that is not going to happen.

This isn't a shaman only situation, most dps classes have the same issues.
#4015SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Frost Mages comes to mind with frost bolt every 2.5 second (0.4 actions per second). Personally I don't think actions per second is a very good way to compare versatility.

It's quite obvious that we are only supposed to use one element totem at a time. What I don't understand is why it's hard to fix. Changing the temporary enchant to 6 seconds or even change it to 4 seconds and the refresh to 3 should destroy twisting pretty much. Perhaps they feel it would be to easy to loose the buff when a mob destroys the totem or something.
#4016SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Anything that can be 'solved' with a cast sequence macro is not interesting or complicated enough to add real depth.
This is pretty much why I agree that totem twisting is silly in addition to the fact it clearly wasn't something that the developers intended (it wasn't even possible until SR). It demands massive GCD usage that pretty much traps the shaman in to doing nothing else and there isn't any real skill involved other than just tapping a button every so often. Actions per second is a silly metric when you're not pressing different buttons. If you feel this is skill, you are probably going to be better off playing drums in Rock Band in a month or so.

What I don't understand is why it's hard to fix.
It's probably easy enough to make most totems /cancelaura before they die, the problem is the WF buff is currently 10 seconds and not dispellable. If they shorten up the pulse duration they're increasing the load on the servers by a not insignificant amount, which I'm sure they don't want to do.
#4017SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nahela
Nice to see some direct acknowledgement of concerns. I wonder if they're looking into the viability of weapon imbues. It would be nice to get some talented means of making Flametongue more viable now that we have some spelldamage to back it up. We're really in a good place now, only real major changes that could happen that I can see would be active threat reduction, SS 6s, or a WF CD reduction.

Also I'm honestly glad that totem twisting isn't intended, it's just more of a chore than anything.
#4018SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
- Yeah, I too didn't think that twisting would last, but I'm surprised how soon after a lot of people really started using it that it got the devs attention Druids have been powershifting as a common way of (slightly) increasing dps before patch 2.2 changed it, so it's been months if not a lot longer.

- My issue with us versus mage damage rotations is that at least they're constantly doing something.

In a 6 minute patchwerk scenario we will again be idly sitting at our keyboard, where we have 40 * 6 = 240 global cooldowns, we will be using:

360/10 = 36 stormstrikes
360/6 = 60 shocks
360/120 * 4 = 12 totems.

108 out of our 240 global cooldowns. We will be maxed out at actively participating by either inputting attack/totem commands, or watching spell casts, less than half of the fight.

A mage (or elemental shaman, or hunter, or whatever) will be using global cooldowns or activating their spell casts or threading their shots close to 100% of the time.

Put in more direct comparison terms, look at the arcane mage specs:
[Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work?

I think the rotation of ABx3->AM->scorch is pretty good already. Its usually after the AM is casted, then I will decide what to cast next depending on whether Clearcasting proc.
1) They actually make decisions based on clearcasting procs. Something like that would be kind of nice.

2) in the rotation mentioned:
AB = 2.5 second cast
AM = 5 second cast
Scorch = 1.5 second cast.

That's 5 casts every 14 seconds, assuming 0 clearcasts. 360/14 = 25.7 rotations * 5 casts / rotation = 128 casts.

Mages that are getting 0 clearcasts, not making any decisions, *still* have more to do in a patchwerk fight than we do, even when you count our totem dropping. Even if you look just at global cooldowns, and forget that in between them they're at least watching a cast bar, they're more involved than we are.

I don't know what to say - I really enjoyed having more opportunity to affect the fight, and hope it is instated in some way for us in the future.
#4019SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This is pretty much why I agree that totem twisting is silly in addition to the fact it clearly wasn't something that the developers intended (it wasn't even possible until SR). It demands massive GCD usage that pretty much traps the shaman in to doing nothing else and there isn't any real skill involved other than just tapping a button every so often. Actions per second is a silly metric when you're not pressing different buttons. If you feel this is skill, you are probably going to be better off playing drums in Rock Band in a month or so.
This is where we differ.

I have been managing GCDs with respect to shocks, SS, twisting, while at the same time delaying stormstrike if the WF cooldown is almost over. The only cast sequence I have is the WF/GoA totem (rest at 8 sec).

For me, I got to choose how to use my global cooldowns, I wouldn't just mash a button that would SS/Totem1/Totem2/Shock macro. That is leaving dps on the table.

I would SS when appropriate, which would sometimes mean that I have to delay either a shock or a totem drop. That's a choice I have to make. Do I delay the SS in order to keep WF on the group? Do I delay the shock? Do I drop the WF totem and then spend the mana to let the GoA totem be dropped later? Do I drop the WF totem, let WF refresh itself at the 5 second mark and *then* drop the GoA to get back into a normal cycle?

I'd agree that if the only thing twisting does is add another 6 words to a macro, then I really wouldn't care if it went away or not. However, in my mind the optimal way to play the game with twisting involved making many more choices than before because of GCD juggling, so I enjoyed the complexity it added with the commensurate, if small, dps gains for the raid.
#4020SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Well, their fix for weapon itemization was to make slow offhand more appealing for warriors seems. Or maybe the fix was side affect of it. That is for everyone to decide as optimist/pessimist

Concerning fixing the twisting, seeing how long it took to fix WF totem (according to them they wanted to do it at TBC launch, so from there to mid august) i would not be suprised if it remained as is for quite some time.
#4021SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Here's my preliminary idea for depth added to enhancement shamans, removing the internal cooldown from wf and to fix itemization issues (slow/slow is best). Also keeping the option to have a burst damage for PvP:
Windfury would no longer have a 20% chance to proc and 3 sec internal cooldown. Instead it would give you an AP buff stacking on every successful hit with the weapon that has the wf imbued. This stacking buff would have a maximum limit.

You would have a skill to "use wf" that removes this buff and uses it as the AP bonus for one extra hit with the main hand weapon. You could use it every time the GCD expires but it wouldn't be clever. The more you wait, the harder the extra hit gets and faster weapons would stack up the buff faster. This should be balanced somehow to make sure you do equal dps with fast and slow weapons at any given base stats.

I know this is not the thread for bringing up ideas and sorry about that, I'm just having the same problems you mentioned before and I'm curious what you think about this solution.
#4022SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
I think part of the reason they are slow in changing twisting is that there may be further totem system changes in the future that would be impacted by any minor change now. A couple issues could be solved simultaneously that makes doing any change now insignificant. Air totem bloat, GCD being overly punishing on totem dropping, mobility concerns, etc are all more pressing problems.
#4023SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Diogo
I completely agree. And what is worse: if we do nothing our dps will still be about 80% of what it could be if we were extremely active and manage all cooldowns well. In other words, we are far more gear dependent than other classes simply because gear is basically what defines our dps. In my guild we have great hunters and awful hunters, and we know which is which because skill and rotation make a big difference there. Rogues have the same thing.

Heck, before I made EJ my forum "home" I used to be active in the Blizzard boards, and at that time there was a lot of complaining about how high our dps was (this was pre linked wf cooldowns), and I've always felt that it was basically a matter of comparing a moronic enh shaman to a moronic rogue.

Totem twisting was what allowed me to feel like I was bringing something extra over random enh shaman #4, as it is an awfully passive class. Im hoping the new spell damage changes will at least add some variety to the mix, as we will be able to heal better or nuke from afar in those melee unfriendly fights.
#4024SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
@Aett - you're wrong. Flat out wrong, no other way to put it. Moogle and I had both been saying for almost a year now that the twisting was obviously not intended, was not a creative use of game mechanics, and was going to get fixed. Thats what the "told ya so" was about, and it was definitely justified.
I personally have never argued that it was intended, and never have believed it was. Whether it's intended or not is completely independent of whether or not it's worth doing. I found it A: creative and B: a use of game mechanics, and was therefore a creative use of game mechanics, but that is just my opinion. Go ahead and feel vindicated if you want.
#4025SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
The World of Warcraft Armory
So this guy is on a 2000+ 5v5 team, and reportedly (according to a side comment he made on a wow forum post) playing on the arena team as a 42/19 enhance build. First time I've seen that.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Interestingly enough he's also on a team with no warrior.
#4026SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3slant
Not only was it an unintended consequence, it's annoying to do and will lead to carpal tunnel just like EQ bards. We don't actually want to twist; it should be removed and abilities/encounters balanced appropriately.
#4027SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Psst, Rob go back and answer my question regarding the Relics.
#4028SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Rob - I see what you're saying about the 28% Astral Winds value. I went to change that and realized that all the math below that will need to be changed as well, but I really don't understand where Panny got some of those values since he skipped a lot of the derivation when he posted it here. Can you lend a hand and clear up what that section should look like now?

Also Pitbuller just sent me a PM with his calculations from this post - http://elitistjerks.com/516315-post3989.html
Is there a consensus on this?
He states:
Tackling these one at a time, the MH/OH DPS->AEP first.

I decided I wasn't going to try to build a model but test this experimentally using Yo's sim.

Begin Experiment
Baseline
1600 AP, 30% crit, 17% hit, 0% haste, 0 –AC, 97.5 DPS 2.6 speed MH/OH
1000 hour sims

Examine effect of AP on DPS
1600 AP = 993 DPS
1650 AP = 1006 DPS
1700 AP = 1018 DPS

Reset to baseline, examine effect of MH DPS on DPS
97.5 MH = 993 DPS
100.3 MH = 999 DPS
103.0 MH = 1005 DPS

Reset to baseline, examine effect of OH DPS on DPS
97.5 OH = 993 DPS
100.3 OH = 997 DPS
103.0 OH = 999 DPS

Reset to baseline, attempt to find lowest AP which will give 1005 DPS.
1645 AP = 1004 DPS
1646 AP = 1004 DPS
1647 AP = 1005 DPS

Reset to baseline, attempt to find lowest MH DPS which will give 1005 DPS.
102.1 MH = 1003 DPS
102.4 MH = 1004 DPS
102.6 MH = 1004 DPS
102.8 MH = 1005 DPS
102.7 MH = 1005 DPS

Calculate MH DPS AEP
(1647 – 1600) AP = (102.7 – 97.5) MH DPS
47 AP = 5.2 MH DPS
9.03 AP = 1 MH DPS

Reset to baseline, attempt to find lowest AP which will give 999 DPS.
1620 AP = 999 DPS
1617 AP = 997 DPS
1619 AP = 998 DPS

Reset to baseline, attempt to find lowest OH DPS which will give 999 DPS.
102.0 OH = 998 DPS
102.2 OH = 998 DPS
102.4 OH = 998 DPS
102.6 OH = 998 DPS
102.8 OH = 998 DPS
102.9 OH = 999 DPS

Calculate OH DPS AEP
(1620 – 1600) AP = (102.9 – 97.5) OH DPS
20 AP = 5.4 OH DPS
3.7 AP = 1 OH DPS
End Experiment

So, what did we learn? Pitbuller's estimates seem fairly accurate. These experimentally-derived numbers are subject to a certain amount of error, and on the MH we experimentally found that AP is less important than Pitbuller's equations say, while on the OH we found that AP is more important than Pitbuller's equations say. Therefore I'm tempted to chalk this up to random error and just go with Pitbuller's estimates. You might want to link to this experimental analysis as well when you include the info in the main post. Additionally, these equivalencies were found using 2.2 mechanics: 2.3 mechanics will increase the impact that AP has on DPS (due to shocks) and therefore lower the AEP of MH/OH weapon DPS.

Important Addendum
This does not mean that 8.48 AP = 1 DPS; this means that 1 MH DPS is 8.48 AEP.

The key difference is that 8.48 AP will in fact increase your DPS by more than 1; just as 1 weapon DPS will increase your overall DPS by more than 1. (To realize why, imagine that 1 weapon DPS increases your DPS by exactly 1 after glances, misses, dodges, and crits are accounted for. Now throw in Flurry, WF procs, and Stormstrike and realize that the weapon is hitting more often than the tooltip says it is, so you gain more DPS from the nominal weapon DPS.)

Last edited by Rob : 10/18/07 at 2:55 PM. Reason: addendum
#4029SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aett
Originally Posted by Malan
The World of Warcraft Armory
So this guy is on a 2000+ 5v5 team, and reportedly (according to a side comment he made on a wow forum post) playing on the arena team as a 42/19 enhance build. First time I've seen that.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Interestingly enough he's also on a team with no warrior.
Me and a couple friends decided to mess around one day with some threes, so we ran hpriest/macerogue, and enhance for a few games. I was running a whopping 63-ish resilience with a totem-twisting PvE spec and we somehow made it to 1900 without a problem. Me exploding kind of capped us off so I switched to elemental (346 resil, 9.6K HP unbuffed) and it sucked. Wound up going to back to enhance with a more PvP focused spec.

I found the main advantage of being enhance over elemental is that I have a massive number of global cooldowns to use while maintaining full damage. The fact that I can shock and purge while doing damage is huge. It's awesome seeing a SL lock go through two pets in a matter of 30 seconds.

Granted this is just threes but I enjoyed enough that I'm planning on giving enhancement a go for season 3. As it stands right now shamanistic rage is fairly hard to notice, although with mods like antagonist it's probably going to get purged pretty quickly at higher levels.

I'm probably going to go 15/46/0. The reduced cooldown on shock is extremely useful for limiting heals. On a pally you can effectively hit every other heal once you get full dps on the target. The plan we always go with is bring massive amounts of damage onto a squishy target to force the healer to stand in the open vulnerable to burns/fears while I spam shock/purge. With totems + rank 1 frost shock and a decently well geared priest, warriors don't give us too much of a problem.
#4030SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Malan
The World of Warcraft Armory
So this guy is on a 2000+ 5v5 team, and reportedly (according to a side comment he made on a wow forum post) playing on the arena team as a 42/19 enhance build. First time I've seen that.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Interestingly enough he's also on a team with no warrior.
So far I have made it to 2435 as enhance on 5v5. Hard, but fun. It can be done at least, but i cant wait for hunter/enhance buffs to see if we can go higher.
#4031SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Rob, your tank... i'm sorry to say

Hi Rob, I know i'm not veteran of EJ, but in this case I'm going to have to say the following:

Something must be amiss with your tank's ability to generate threat.
*currently i'm resto, due to a raider's real life situation leading to his absence on raids*

On tidewalker - when slam still generated rage for a warrior...that situation was the only time i had to use tranquil air for the entirety of the fight.
Normally on that fight, I drop only TA for the first 30seconds, then twist with GoA.

On Void Reaver - TA the entire time... not even bothering putting down WF

On all other fights in the tier5 region it was always WF/GoA. Especially Kael, the tank had tons of rage absolutely no threat problems. The fury warrior and I stayed on Kael the entire time, we didn't kill eggs. The only time I didn't twist on Kael was when an egg call was made, i stopped twisting in order to use ES if needed, as soon as the egg died, the mages and rogues were back to take care of that.
Now that I think about it.... our tank was on Kael for like 20seconds while 4 or 5 melee killed Sanguinar, so that might be the difference which doesn't require TA for our melee. That 20seconds is a big boost, i understand that.

In the tier5 instances, I pulled threat from a living tank only once. On the Vashj run-in, our tank was parried and parried her 7 times in the first few seconds, so he had very little rage left and i had autoattack on as I ran past her to drop my totems in the middle. Naturally I got like 2 crits from a WF proc, pulled aggro, had my back to her and didn't even get a chance to dodge or parry.

So either I'm a terrible crap-stain of an enhance shaman (i might be) or your tank should be able to produce much more threat. Things like WF + EarthShield + PoM + hit gems, really skyrocket the living daylights out of a tank's threat production.

p.s. Thank you for the discussion on DPS to AEP. I do appreciate your work.
#4032SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
On Tidewalker, I primarily had to drop TA when we had a Venezuelan tank with 800 ping... so yeah, it was mostly his fault. I do still have to drop it during SRs regardless on that fight, if I've gotten lucky with WG rolls.

On VR, I usually don't drop TA since there's a feral druid or some such in my group that's OTing. I end up pulling aggro at 25% and battle-ankhing. If I had [Prism of Inner Calm] I would equip it for that fight.

On Kael'thas, we interrupt fireballs. (And obviously Pyroblasts as well, but everyone does that.) If your guild doesn't, I could see your tank having tons of rage. Also, me and the rest of the melee are on him within 5s of him coming out, we are able to kill Sanguinar just as emerges. So our tank doesn't really have a threat lead.

Our tank also almost never gets WF, since we have typically only an enhancement + 1 or 2 resto shamans in the raid. The resto shamans tend to go to mage or hunter groups (for WoA/GoA and Mana Tide) depending on the number of spriests we have. Typically I am grouped with DPS warrior + 2 rogues + 1 of (rogue, warrior, feral druid) depending on what's in the raid. So there's not really a chance for a tank to get my WFT.

Our tanks definitely aren't the best in the world, but our two best prot warriors are pretty solid, we have a couple mediocre prot warriors (aforementioned 800-pinger and someone else who's just not that good) and about 1 great feral druid and 1 mediocre feral druid. Our server is kind of a recruiting backwater so we don't have a lot of options in this regard.
#4033SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
For people interested in the new 2.3 loot, I input most of it into an Excel spreadsheet to compare it with my current loot. Note that there's no accounting for the 3% crit on RED and my value for weapon expertise is an estimate (1.8 times as valuable as hit rating, but only 75% of the time since 25% of the time bosses will be casting.) I thought this would be useful to share, in case people wanted to compare their own items (just replace the top rows with your own gear's stats).
Attached Files
Loot comparison.xls (39.5 KB, 138 views)
#4034SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
I'm kind of in an interesting position here. I am in a BT/MH guild as elemental and that is what I plan to stay as. However there is no enhancement shaman in the guild (or for that matter no good ones on the server it seems) and I have been able to be in a position to pick up items for enhancement that the hunters or rogues don't want to save them from sharding. I looked through the start of the thread (and I've read a fair bit of it) but was looking for some way to reliably rate gear at the T6 level (with having only a few Kara pieces and not much of any T5 gear), with some special consideration taken for badges/ZA loot that might compete in 2.3.

I was using Sebudei's AEP calculations of 2.2 for str, 2 for agi, 2 for crit, 2 for hit, 1.9 for haste and .33 for armor penetration and made myself a list of items to pick up. I'm not sure if thats a proper AEP as I tried Yo's sim and got different numbers but then again I didn't input everything properly I think. I was wondering if anyone was willing to help and either over PM or IM I could talk to them and ask some specific questions about gearing choices for enhancement. I don't want to litter this thread here with stuff since it will get it too far off topic imo. So if you're willing to help send me a PM. Thanks.
#4035SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan
The World of Warcraft Armory
So this guy is on a 2000+ 5v5 team, and reportedly (according to a side comment he made on a wow forum post) playing on the arena team as a 42/19 enhance build. First time I've seen that.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Interestingly enough he's also on a team with no warrior.
I really don't have a problem seeing this. You can bet that when other teams look at his they see a UA lock, mages, and a balance druid and want to kill them. He also has blessing of freedom and cleanse to keep him going. Sure it's not the easy road but they obviously make it work.
#4036SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
Awesome Rob, thanks!
#4037SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
MalgorTB
Thought it would be interesting to test out different weapon speeds in Yo's simulator. With 100 hours as the config, and no options changed, here are how weapon speeds ended up with DPS:

      2.8   2.7   2.6   2.4   2.2
2.8   953   948   944   936   924
2.7   949   943   938   927   918
2.6   942   938   936   926   914
2.4   934   929   925   916   904
2.2   920   918   911   903   893
So, we can see that, in general:

(2.x / 2.y) = (2.y / 2.x)

Now I only used 100 hours, and this would need more than that for anything definitive, but I thought it was worth reporting on. There are folks on the main boards claiming that if you have a 2.4 and a 2.8, to put the 2.4 as your main hand. The simulator, however, seems to show they are about the same.

Edit: Running that particular scenario with 1000 hours of hack and slash put them both at exactly 934 dps.

Last edited by MalgorTB : 10/18/07 at 5:07 PM.
#4038SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Rob
Pitbuller's estimates seem fairly accurate. These experimentally-derived numbers are subject to a certain amount of error, and on the MH we experimentally found that AP is less important than Pitbuller's equations say, while on the OH we found that AP is more important than Pitbuller's equations say. Therefore I'm tempted to chalk this up to random error and just go with Pitbuller's estimates.
I thought about this some more while I was doing something else, and it occurred to me that the reason MH DPS seems to be relatively more important than expected, and OH DPS seems to be relatively less important than expected, is that the MH will receive more WF procs due to the fact it's rolled first during a Stormstrike. So, I'm not sure which estimate is truly better: Pitbuller's {1 MH DPS = 8.48 AEP, 1 OH DPS = 4.24 AEP} or mine {1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP, 1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP}. Intriguingly, 9.03 - 8.48 AEP = 0.55 AEP = 4.24 - 3.70 AEP. This coincidence is too delicious for me; I'm gonna have to go with my estimates and assume that they are correctly accounting for the MH having an increased number of WF procs.

So, to summarize:
Pitbuller is theoretically correct, but does not account for the fact that Stormstrike attacks first with the main hand, giving the main hand a higher number of Windfury Weapon procs. The result of this is to increase the AEP of main hand weapon DPS and decrease the AEP of off-hand weapon DPS. The weights of MH and OH DPS are thus:
1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP

If someone wants to repeat my experiment with a different baseline set of stats (I used 1600 AP, 30% crit, 17% hit, 0% haste, 0 armor penetration, double Mongoose, no trinket procs, no Dragonstrike proc), they could confirm my results by reproducing them or show that my results are flawed.

An obvious shortcoming in these AEP values is that they assume a 2.6 speed weapon. Slower weapons will be worth more AEP for a given DPS. Feel free to calculate that if you try to confirm my results

Last edited by Rob : 10/18/07 at 5:49 PM.
#4039SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Well played. I'll need to add some appropriate bold lettered warnings that we are not equating DPS to Attack Power though.
#4040SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
Hi, i didn't see this posted anywhere but assuming the new talents in place.

Would this:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Be considered the new cookie cutter Raiding build?

Sorry for the newb question, but the only talk of specs was 'LOL ELE AND ENH BULD"

Thanks in advance.
I would take even 2 points in Healing Focus over 2% shock damage, if for nothing else besides solo utility. This is assuming you're not twisting and don't care about totem mana costs, as was mentioned earlier.
#4041SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Toots Hepcat
Thanks for the great work, guys -- but I still feel that weapon speed must play a factor in weapon to AEP equivalency calculations.

In other words, perhaps it's not 1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP, but 1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP@2.6s

It doesn't matter all that much if you're already restricting your upgrades to 2.6s or slower. But finding out the role weapon speed plays would help answer important questions, like how much you lose, say, going from a 2.7 MH to a 2.4. It could also help predict just how crappy your offhand would have to be for [Malchazeen] to be an upgrade.

And yes -- I do intend to do some simulations to find this out.
#4042SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
In other words, perhaps it's not 1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP, but 1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP@2.6s
Yes, this much is blindingly clear. Due to WF and SS being non-normalized, slower speeds will have a higher AEP value for 1 MH DPS (i.e. we might see 1 MH DPS@2.8s = 9.50 AEP, or similar).

With current itemization, the only weapons worth considering are 2.6, 2.7, and 2.8 speed; feel free to calculate AEPs for the other speeds and report back.
#4043SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Hmm. So does that make a comparison between AEP values of a 2.6 and a 2.7 or 2.8 weapon possible?
#4044SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Rob you are absolute right and thank you for doing some testing that I should have pasted before. I dint want to speculate how MH and OH will get WF procs because then I have assume what kind weapons speeds was used. And I totally forget SS mechanism(mh first). Thats why I assumed both hands get same amount of WF procs.

If i could see how much dps% my Mh and Oh do then this will be piece of cake.

AEP for Mh wDPS = (14/1.1) * (Mh dps / total physical dps)
AEP for Oh wDPS = (14/1.1) * (Oh dps / total physical dps)

I assumed these decimals 2/3 and 1/3.
Maybe some genius simulator maker will add these values to his java applet.

Ps. "9.03 - 8.48 AEP = 0.55 AEP = 4.24 - 3.70 AEP" I expected this kind a behavior.

EDIT: damn I am slow. 8.48aep is number what isnt gear/speed depency. Just like all AEP values in front page are base values with varietes with your gear/weapons speeds

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/18/07 at 7:17 PM. Reason: slow poster
#4045SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yasuhiko
Originally Posted by Tsalrioth
So far I have made it to 2435 as enhance on 5v5. Hard, but fun. It can be done at least, but i cant wait for hunter/enhance buffs to see if we can go higher.
I'll want to talk to you about that later =D
I can't find any good enh tips anywhere, it seems.



On to my main topic: I have a question. Using enhancer, with "best possible gems," on the PTR, I get an AEP of ~250 for the Cyclone Helm, but live gives me an esimated AEP of 175. Is there a reason for this? Is it a change to RED? I was wondering if anyone had a clue, and I figured this would be a good place to look.

It's worth mentioning that I updated Enhancer a last night for live, but not PTR, which is why I'm curious as to what exactly changed.
#4046SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
We need to invent new Abbreviation Wdps, wps or something.
#4047SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yasuhiko
I've always used PDPS and MDPS to signify the difference.
#4048SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Malan
Rob - I see what you're saying about the 28% Astral Winds value. I went to change that and realized that all the math below that will need to be changed as well, but I really don't understand where Panny got some of those values since he skipped a lot of the derivation when he posted it here. Can you lend a hand and clear up what that section should look like now?
Originally Posted by Rob
@ Malan:
OP states that Astral Winds gives 80 AP to 40% of swings; I'm assuming this was meant to be 2 WF procs for every 5 hits. In this case it's 80 AP to 2/(2+5) = 2/7 = 28% of swings. ALL Astral Winds swings (WF procs) are multiplied by 1.4, whereas for Stonebreaker's only some of the swings are multiplied by 1.4 (the white procs aren't). There's also no mention of the fact that this model is only true if you shock instantly every time the CD is up, and no mention if the 52% uptime is based on 6s shocks or 5s shocks. I do agree with the conclusion (Stonebreaker's is better than Astral Winds), but only if you shock often enough to keep Stonebreaker uptime greater than ~35%. I think this is worth mentioning based on how many shamans are twisting these days.
I tested both 5 second and 6 second cooldown shocking, and I posted my results and maths pretty openly: http://elitistjerks.com/510190-post3774.html You're right about the different percentage that Astral Winds applies to though, what I get for doing maths late at night I guess. I'm guessing the 1.4 multiplier is Elemental Weapons?

Redoing it:
A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime + B1 + B2 + B3
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 4.8/16.8 = 0.286
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 2/16.8 = 0.119
Percent_of_white_Swings = 10/16.8 = 0.595

A: 32
B1: 44
B2: 13
B3: 65 * (1 - Missrate)

So, to work out the equivalence point, we write:
A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
32 = 0.52 * (44 + 13 + [ 65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Missrate = 0.93
Which means you have to have a white miss of 93% for Astral Winds to be better, if the observed uptime is 52%. Since this 52% figure was obtained on Blasted Lands Servants, you can roughly equate this as 52% * (1 - BossSpellMissRate). It actually should be slightly higher due to the fact that after a resisted shock, your next shock won't be within the hidden cooldown. Without typing out all the above maths again, with Nature's Guidance, the Miss Equivalence point is 77%. Without NG, it's 73%.

I haven't included dodge and parry because they affect WF/SS/white damage equally.

P.S. From the OP:
Keep in mind that Searing Totem will have its strength determined at the moment it is dropped. Fluctuations in your AP from trinkets, buffs, procs will not be considered once the totem is placed. It is best to make sure you have as many of your AP buffs up before you drop Searing Totem.
I've found this not to be true of offensive totems like Searing/Magma, only for Healing Stream Totem.
#4049SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Sorry if this has been answered before, But i just picked up a Syphon today, and was noticing the Proc was affected by things such as COS, Misery, etc. We also happen to have a Spell dmg spirit priest in the raid, and i noticed that my Life drains were hitting for 30's+.

I was wondering if the proc DID stack with spelldmg? If it affected the Heal part as well? And whether it will work in 2.3?


Thanks in advance.
#4050SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
Sorry if this has been answered before, But i just picked up a Syphon today, and was noticing the Proc was affected by things such as COS, Misery, etc. We also happen to have a Spell dmg spirit priest in the raid, and i noticed that my Life drains were hitting for 30's+.

I was wondering if the proc DID stack with spelldmg? If it affected the Heal part as well? And whether it will work in 2.3?


Thanks in advance.
No. Spell damage hasn't worked with items since ret paladins were tearing kids with Sulfuras and rogues were stacking spell damage with Thunderfury two years ago.
#4051SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
Sorry if this has been answered before, But i just picked up a Syphon today, and was noticing the Proc was affected by things such as COS, Misery, etc. We also happen to have a Spell dmg spirit priest in the raid, and i noticed that my Life drains were hitting for 30's+.

I was wondering if the proc DID stack with spelldmg? If it affected the Heal part as well? And whether it will work in 2.3?


Thanks in advance.
No. Spell damage hasn't worked with items since ret paladins were tearing kids with Sulfuras and rogues were stacking spell damage with Thunderfury two years ago.
#4052SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
I was wondering if the proc DID stack with spelldmg? If it affected the Heal part as well?
Wrath of Air totem can answer this for you. I suppose it wont though, pretty sure someone here would have mentioned it already by then. (though there always is a chance)
#4053SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rowdee
Hey, I am not sure if I just missed this or what, but what is a good base amount of hit to always stay around. Also, if you can't hit, then you can't proc windfury correct? So wouldn't we need a decent amount of hit to be able to proc in the first place? Thanks for the replies.
#4054SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Freyalis
In Truth once you have 9% hit, which any decent shaman should have from talents you need 0 Hit Rating. This is due to reaching the hit cap for your yellow WF and SS damage. You gain a larger DPS boost from adding crit rating and AP which affects 90% of your damage than hit rating which will only effect the 45-50% of your damage which is white damage.

In other words, dont worry about +hit. You will pick it up along the way just fine enough.

Also for the record this is in the first post under section VIII.3 Itemization - Hit Rating

Last edited by Freyalis : 10/19/07 at 2:38 AM.
#4055SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Read the first post in this thread. It will tell you what you need to know.
#4056SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
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#4057SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rowdee
Maybe I am being dense and missing something, but if you can't hit, then how can you proc windfury? I do not understand why other classes like rogues and fury warriors need ~240 hit rating and talents to maximize their dps, but we only need our talents.
#4058SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3zeratulgr
Originally Posted by rowdee
Maybe I am being dense and missing something, but if you can't hit, then how can you proc windfury? I do not understand why other classes like rogues and fury warriors need ~240 hit rating and talents to maximize their dps, but we only need our talents.
The only class that needs hit to maximize dps are rogues cause of their talent combat potency.
No other class needs such high hit rating,if you get hit in your items be happy but the post is stating that strenght and crit will outpeform hit and you need to socket for those.

Between I am leveling an echance Shaman thats why I answered.
#4059SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rowdee
I understand as much regarding the socketing. But still, I just cannot wrap my mind around the fact that if you cannot hit, then how are you going to proc windfury? Wouldn't getting a good amount of hit, around 150ish, be better for more consistent dps since you would also be proccing more often since you are hitting more often?

Thanks again for the replies, my guild is trying out enhancement shaman in raid after my vouching for its greatness and I am trying to gear myself out so that I can impress them with my numbers.
#4060SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by rowdee
Maybe I am being dense and missing something, but if you can't hit, then how can you proc windfury? I do not understand why other classes like rogues and fury warriors need ~240 hit rating and talents to maximize their dps, but we only need our talents.
MASTER OF INNOVATION. Clearly your insights will bring new hope to this thread with over 130 pages of discussion. I'm just so amazed that nobody in the history of this thread has ever thought of this, I bow to you good sir.

I. Frequently Asked Silly Questions
Asking any of these questions is likely to get you flamed and laughed at because they've been asked hundreds of times. All the info you need to figure this stuff out should be in this post.
* How much hit rating do I need?
So, now we have this section here:

VIII.3 Itemization - Hit Rating
Current theory is holding that we do not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. A good explanation of why can be found here. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence. Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.
Hit is far more important because their white damage supersedes their specials, something like 60-65% white.
#4061SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rowdee
Originally Posted by rava
MASTER OF INNOVATION. Clearly your insights will bring new hope to this thread with over 130 pages of discussion. I'm just so amazed that nobody in the history of this thread has ever thought of this, I bow to you good sir.



So, now we have this section here:



Hit is far more important because their white damage supersedes their specials, something like 60-65% white.
Like I said in my first post oh master of fasiciousness, I have not been able to hit all 130 pages to see if this has been addressed, so I asked again. If you can provide me with the post number I will gladly read it, thank you.

Now we are getting more clear, I realize that their white damage is more important, but still my question is there, if you cannot hit, then how are you proccing windfury consistently?
#4062SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3seminarca
* You are missing something.

* The following is quoted from the OP.

VIII.3 Itemization - Hit Rating
Current theory is holding that we do not need anywhere near the hit cap like we previously thought. A good explanation of why can be found here. Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence. Take the talents to hit cap your specials, any hit rating on gear after that is icing on the cake.
* It links to the following post: http://elitistjerks.com/461443-post1899.html

* Read the OP and the thread before asking questions that have been repeated ad nauseum since its inception.

* Don't be daft.
#4063SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rowdee
Originally Posted by seminarca
* You are missing something.

* The following is quoted from the OP.



* It links to the following post: http://elitistjerks.com/461443-post1899.html

* Read the OP and the thread before asking questions that have been repeated ad nauseum since its inception.

* Don't be daft.
So windfury will proc off of misses? The sole reason I am asking this question is because I have read and skimmed the thread multiple times and have not been able to find out a clear answer to this, hence why I asked the question. I reply as I am replied to.
#4064SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3seminarca
"Losing" WF procs due to misses isn't nearly as important as you seem to think it is, this is mainly due to the 3 second WF cooldown. If you miss within the 3 sec WF cooldown, you're not actually losing anything (except the white hit in question, and AP/crit is a better way of making that back than hit rating).

You haven't read the thread multiple times, because I got this bit info from this very thread.

(you're being daft, just fyi)
#4065SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rowdee
Originally Posted by seminarca
"Losing" WF procs due to misses isn't nearly as important as you seem to think it is, this is mainly due to the 3 second WF cooldown. If you miss within the 3 sec WF cooldown, you're not actually losing anything (except the white hit in question, and AP/crit is a better way of making that back than hit rating).

You haven't read the thread multiple times, because I got this bit info from this very thread.

(you're being daft, just fyi)
I am being foolish for asking a question? So instead of doing what you just did, which is answer my question, it was far more worthy to skirt around the issue and call me daft for seeking clarification? Anyways, thanks for your answer, helped me out a good deal.
#4066SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Aeolian
Hes not referring to you as foolish because you are asking a question, he is calling you foolish because all of the information he just gave you can be found in this thread. There is a search command, although even I will admit that this thread has grown to a point where finding any good reliable information in it could take a considerable amount of time. At this point people should consider any question they ask carefully, because more then likely the answer is in plain view on the original post or within the post.

Search and patience are your greatest friends here.
#4067SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3seminarca
You're being foolish because this question has been asked, and answered in detail, many many more times than I or other readers care to remember since the thread was started.

You claim to have "read and skimmed the thread multiple times" yet somehow I seriously doubt that, else you wouldn't be asking in the first place.

I can remember discussions as recently as 6 - 10 pages back on this same exact question.

So don't be surprised when you come in here asking a very common question without doing your homework first and don't get a rosy spoonfed response (which you did get in my last post). Getting smart alecky and argumentative isn't helping either.
#4068SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Ehm it is wrong that fury warriors need max +hit and if the rogues really need it is a different question. Different rogue models show different results.
Enh shamans also profit just fine from much +hit, there is just no direct need to get extra +hit, but it does not hurt. One +hit rating is worth just a little less than one +crit rating for high end geared shamans.
#4069SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Malan
The World of Warcraft Armory
So this guy is on a 2000+ 5v5 team, and reportedly (according to a side comment he made on a wow forum post) playing on the arena team as a 42/19 enhance build. First time I've seen that.
The World of Warcraft Armory
Interestingly enough he's also on a team with no warrior.
I also got as an enhancer with my team to 2100+. But with the decline of the double warrior teams, it got much harder.
#4070SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
It is not as though we have a 100% chance to miss without hit rating. The chance to miss a mob is comparatively low, even with 0 hit rating.

So no, Windfury Weapon will not proc from a missed melee attack. Yes, this does affect the value of hit rating for us. No, this does not mean hit rating is as valuable to us as it is for rogues or warriors. Rogues and warriors deal more of their total damage via white attacks than we do. The rogue talent Combat Potency and the warrior rage mechanics also have an affect on the value of hit rating to those classes.

The answer to your initial question was in the first post of this thread.

Last edited by Sebudai : 10/19/07 at 4:45 AM.
#4071SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vim
We are not rogues, nor are we warriors. Class mechanics differ substantially. A holy Paladin benefits from + crit much more than a resto shaman does. They are both healers, but the mechanics are different. It is not wise to try to figure out how your class works based off of another class.
#4072SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vim
Originally Posted by Rob
So, to summarize:
Pitbuller is theoretically correct, but does not account for the fact that Stormstrike attacks first with the main hand, giving the main hand a higher number of Windfury Weapon procs. The result of this is to increase the AEP of main hand weapon DPS and decrease the AEP of off-hand weapon DPS. The weights of MH and OH DPS are thus:
1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP

Thank you so much Rob. I had a question relating to this some pages back, and had no way of figuring the approximate value of additional DPS vs. stats such as AP or Strength. This should make searching for better weapons a lot easier for me .
#4073SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3gorsameth
Why do we need less hit then warriors? Well the answer is in my opinion, we dont.
While I was raiding with my dps warrior (this was before tbc tho) I had 10% hit and my miss chance was not any issue.
Considering that instead of 3% warriors have we get 9% from talents there is your answer.
Shamans need a lot less hit on gear to reach the same actual percentage.

Also as already stated the amount of procs you miss with wf are not as bad as you would think. very rarely does it happen you'll miss so much in a row you even notice it.
Plus a correct use of SS which will miss only rarely do to dodge further reduces the chance of missing out on wf procs
#4074SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3LazyJoe
My personal explanation to why rogue/Warrior need a lot of +hit is because of their dps cycle. They have to use special abilities to buff themselve and these abilities use rage/energy. So a miss isn't just a wasted melee attack ofr them, it slows down their cycle, and consecutive misses may even totally break it.

On the other side shamans don't have such dps cycles, we are just autohitting and adding some spice with stormstrike and shocks. As for the fact that "more hit will produce more windfury procs", without the 3-sec cooldown this would be totally true, but in fact most of our miss happen inside the cooldown, so increasing your hit has a minor impact of windfury procs.
#4075SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob
For people interested in the new 2.3 loot, I input most of it into an Excel spreadsheet to compare it with my current loot. Note that there's no accounting for the 3% crit on RED and my value for weapon expertise is an estimate (1.8 times as valuable as hit rating, but only 75% of the time since 25% of the time bosses will be casting.) I thought this would be useful to share, in case people wanted to compare their own items (just replace the top rows with your own gear's stats).
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
#4076SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by Neithan
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
#4077SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oteb
Originally Posted by rava
No. Spell damage hasn't worked with items since ret paladins were tearing kids with Sulfuras and rogues were stacking spell damage with Thunderfury two years ago.
And shamans with full EF were getting 600 heals from crusader enchant.. good old times.
#4078SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Freyalis
Ah yes those were the days, ZHC + Ancient Hakkari Manslayer was a pretty brutal combo aswell heheh, both easily available from ZG
#4079SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Neithan
Originally Posted by Atren
Not really. See 28 agi gives more crit than 20 crit rating and 20 hit rating is more than 11 hit rating. Sockets number is same, and both are good socket types. Socket bonus is better for T6. That gives 37 str vs 58 AP in which T6 clearly wins. With BoK it is about 81 AP vs 58 AP. So 23 AP compared to about 3 crit rating (from head, can be way wrong :P) and 9 hit rating. THeir rather close to each other. T6 has more non-AEP stats however with 48 stamina, 19 intellect and 7 MP5/s compared to just 30 stamina.
Interesting. Thanks for your answer.

(Time to do some more calculations).

Altough:

Coefficients
Strength 2,2
Agility 2,05
Red Socket 17,6
Yellow Socket 17,24
Blue Socket 8,8
Hit Rating 1,84
Critical Strike Rating 2,11
Haste Rating 1,94
Attack Power 1
Ignore Armor 0,32
Expertise Rating 2,484

Last edited by Neithan : 10/19/07 at 10:08 AM.
#4080SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
To the guy asking about hit rating and WF procs - I suggest you read this article. Attack tables and you - WOW Insider

I've added the weapon DPS AEP values, along with an example comparison of Netherbane vs Merciless Gladiator weapons, and updated Panny's calculations on Stonebreaker.

Last edited by Malan : 10/19/07 at 10:31 AM.
#4081SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
I did have some extra time today and I double checked my math with Wdps aep.
I used Base line 2*2.6s*100dps weapons(easier to compare), 30%crit, 18% hit, 1500ap, 4400 armor, 2*mongoose, totem of astral winds, RED, BoM, MotW, soe, flask of resentless assault. No shocks nor 2.3. (Those are listed that yuo can check my test result if you want. I think if you use different values you should get same result anyway.)


result from YO's simulator.
scaling Mh wDPS and AP:

AP     MhWdps   Total DPS
652     200       980
1076    150       981
1500    100       979
1924     50       979
2348      0       978
scaling Oh wDPS and AP:

AP     Oh Wdps   Total DPS
1076    200       978
1288    150       979
1500    100       979
1712     50       979
1924      0       980
All result show that 1wDPS to MH8.48aep and Oh 4.24aep is less than 1% wrong when using same speed weapons.

EDIT: finally its readable.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/19/07 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Messy
#4082SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I'm not sure I understand your chart. You may want to use the [ code ] tags to allow spacing.
#4083SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mindrila
I'm wondering why noone implemented the Wrath Card into simulations, it isn't that hard i think. (Well I have no sourcecode of a simulator available so I can't say how difficult it is)

The card is working like this:
If the hit is not a crit increase critrating by 17 for melee and spells.
If the hit is a crit return to normal critrating.

Stormstrike procs the card.
Windfury doesn't.
Shocks proc the card.

I really don't know how complex this is to integrate but I would like to see some thing of a chart like AEP over Basecritrating.
AEP would be calculated like this: (Critrate - Basiccritrate)*22.1* AEP Valuation for Crit

I would like to see someone modelling this card into a simulator (my shaman has this card and it's really hard to say if its worth it or not, so a simulation would be nice)
#4084SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Jerem
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.

Last edited by Jerem : 10/19/07 at 11:36 AM.
#4085SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
#4086SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ardonomus
Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.

Any update on that?
#4087SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
#4088SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
I'll have it on Tuesday but I don't test things and just run by the seat of my pants. I've heard 60 sec internal cooldown with 1ppm and I'll have some anecdotal evidence after BT on wed.
#4089SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
#4090SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan
Its the same way for Shaman. The less crit you have, the better the Wrath card is. The more crit you have, the value of the card approaches zero. According to people who have figured it out, at 30% or more crit (easily achieved in T5 gear with buffs) you are critting so often that you only see a couple stacks of the card at any time.
Just a thought but perhaps some value could be given to this card if you were to let your base crit fall in favor of Armor pen. 2.3 will make Armor pen pretty easy to obtain and that is a nice consistant dps boost where as crit is spikey, unpredictable and more of a threat issue. If you could get yourself in a place where the Wrath card allowed flurry/UR to be up 90-95%+ while at 25% crit you might be able to get some value there.

Of course to make all this work you're basing it off of that trinket, and in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.
#4091SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Jerem
As far as the Darkmoon : Wrath card is concerned, it is modelled in Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet.

It might be totally different for a Shaman, but for a Hunter it becomes less and less efficient the more "passive" crit% you have. Call that "negative scaling" if you want.
Since Crit Rating is one of the most valued stat, I wouldn't invest in a Wrath card.

For a hunter, the Darkmoon : Crusade card is better than Wrath. Should be similar, or close to similar for a Shaman.
On top of that, we have the additional advantage of having access to double Mongoose with a great AGI to crit ratio.
#4092SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Torrential
in the end there's probably another trinket you could use with more standard crit rate and come out just s good or better.
I think you answered your own question and speaking personally here, I have no interest in pursuing the particular mechanics of the Dark Moon card.
#4093SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Nemaa
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
Thanks, thats somewhat what I heard aswell, that'll have to do until it's being tested properly when more people get exalted
#4094SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
In my guild some healers already got their ring and they say it's duration is 15 sec, internal cooldown is 60 sec. This might be not intended but if our ring works the same way, the highest value for the proc is: 160 x 15 / 60 = 40 AEP
Has the ring been changed in 2.3? Tooltip in-game still says 10 sec duration atleast so that'd be:
160 * 10 / 60 = ~26.7 AEP
#4095SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Neithan
Coeficients are based on your gear? Because honestly I did some comparisons like
Skyshatter Pauldrons - 190,98
and
Pauldrons of Primal Fury - 187,04

which I find a little bit skewed.
Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.
#4096SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Yasuhiko
On to my main topic: I have a question. Using enhancer, with "best possible gems," on the PTR, I get an AEP of ~250 for the Cyclone Helm, but live gives me an esimated AEP of 175. Is there a reason for this? Is it a change to RED?
Most likely you are not including either meta gems or gem estimates on Live. Meta gem slots or in reality RED in the meta slot will have 75 AEP added to it's value if gem estimates and meta gems are checked since Increase Critical Damage 3% isn't a pure stat that can't be multiplied with output from ItemBonusLib.
#4097SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Is anyone working on a definitive stat weight for weapon expertise?


I grabbed the shoulder pads of the stranger last night to see how it works out. Now to re-copy myself to test. I would be replacing the T5 shoulders so I struggle to think they would be better. On the other hand I have no Expertise rating on any other items, as with most stats, I'm sure the first couple of points will make the most difference.

There is nothing worse than seeing that MH WF proc come up:

DODGE
DODGE
#4098SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.
#4099SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob
Obviously those AEP values have to be based on my gear. You can replace the coefficients with your own AEP values obtained by running Yo's sim.

Nevertheless, that's not a skewed comparison at all. Skyshatter is heavy on STA, INT, and MP5. Pauldrons of Primal Fury has no INT and no MP5, freeing up a ton of item budget to be used on useful stats.
You're comparing: 34 STR, 11 hit, 26 crit to 28 AGI, 20 hit, 58 AP. Those are almost identical in terms of DPS.
Yes realized that . After doing some calculations it seems that Z'A/badge loot is close to T6.
#4100SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Originally Posted by Rob
Weapon expertise is going to vary from fight to fight based on how often the boss mob casts (casting mobs can't dodge) and how easy it is to maintain perfect positioning behind the mob (mobs can't parry from behind).

That said, it looks fairly valuable. Multiply hit rating AEP by 1.8 if you assume that the mob will never cast and never parry.
Thanks for the value.

After looking at it, this makes the Shoulderpads of the Stranger a no brainer over the T5 shoulder until you can get the 4 piece bonus.

Yet another piece of my set to get shelfed for a better leather item.

WTS MP5
#4101SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
About the wrath card, there's a post here on thottbot: Thottbot World of Warcraft: Site Comments > Items > Darkmoon Card: Wrath > Re: Darkmoon Card: Wrath

Long story short, it's not a PvE trinket. I only use it in BG's as an anti-resilience trinket.
#4102SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Rob
Shoulderpads of the Stranger were already a no-brainer over T5 (which are worse than T4 due to the MP5)
I find it nauseating how many shamans mid TK/ssc that use T5 shoulders, heck, I only recently upgraded from T4 to T6, and I've killed illidan a bunch. Getting items like bloodsea brigand's and especially a DST or Tsunami are much higher in priority. In hyjal/BT the leather/mail dps gear flows like a river.
#4103SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Guns
Originally Posted by Malan
Very few people are Exalted with Hyjal and so we have next to no data available. I think Stigmata said he's pretty close to it, that was a few weeks ago.
Sebudai has it. Ask him


Also, just an idle thought that will likely get over-looked but it has been bothering me. The RED is universally agreed upon as the best meta-gem, but I just want to toss ideas out that I have been pondering.

I believe that the 24 ap and runspeed gem should have its AEP value increased by ~20, maybe more (still under RED, to clarify). My reasoning is that it requires no blue gems, and it has run speed on it, allowing you to get 6 more agility from your boots.

I realize this is nothing ground-breaking, just something I was musing over while I was mad that I put a 10 str in my bow-stitched legs instead of another sovereign nightseye.
#4104SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Igniter
Originally Posted by Guns
Sebudai has it. Ask him


Also, just an idle thought that will likely get over-looked but it has been bothering me. The RED is universally agreed upon as the best meta-gem, but I just want to toss ideas out that I have been pondering.

I believe that the 24 ap and runspeed gem should have its AEP value increased by ~20, maybe more (still under RED, to clarify). My reasoning is that it requires no blue gems, and it has run speed on it, allowing you to get 6 more agility from your boots.

I realize this is nothing ground-breaking, just something I was musing over while I was mad that I put a 10 str in my bow-stitched legs instead of another sovereign nightseye.
An extra blue, but, some items like bloodsea brigand's and midnight chest (best chest currently) have an easy to get blue socket with a nice, nice ap bonus. Also, the gem from heroic SV fits into a blue socket giving 5 str 4 agi.
#4105SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Guns
Originally Posted by Igniter
An extra blue, but, some items like bloodsea brigand's and midnight chest (best chest currently) have an easy to get blue socket with a nice, nice ap bonus. Also, the gem from heroic SV fits into a blue socket giving 5 str 4 agi.
True. Like I stated, it's not any massive find, I just was thinking about it. Personally (by personally, I mean 'I have no t6, ergo little stam'), the stam is much needed and I like being more rounded, rather than a glass-cannon.
#4106SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Khlysti
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Searched for [Band of the Eternal Champion], all I found was a few-post discussion about it. I'm currently AEP valuing all the gear from Hyjal and BT but I have a hard time on this one due to the chance on hit effect.

Any update on that?
So far for me its had a ~12-13% uptime in raids, that would put the proc at ~20AEP. Its a perfectly ok ring, but its not spectacular. Cooldown does seem to be 60 sec as previously said.
#4107SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Sebudai
I thought I made a post about the ring earlier in this thread. Let me see if I can find it.
#4108SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I'd give it a solid "Meh...". It was an upgrade, but not a huge one. That's not really surprising from the ring slot though. It has about a 10% chance to proc with a 60 second internal cooldown. I think the ring hierarchy probably looks like this(at least for me):

Stormrage Signet Ring - 156.78 AEP
Band of the Eternal Champion - 137~ AEP
Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring - 136.2 AEP
Ring of Deceitful Intent - 133.05 AEP
Band of Devastation - 123.35 AEP
Yop.

My gear has changed since then so those AEP values won't be entirely accurate(at least for me). But they should be pretty close.
#4109SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Funny thing is after putting on the best DPS items I have come to a conclusion :

Best Mail Stuff : Linky

Best Mail/Leather Stuff : Linky

Leather/Mail gear provide better hp at the cost of a lowered mana pool but having a higher dps value.

Now... for that Tier 6 reitemezation please.
#4110SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsaeb
Originally Posted by Bragor
Funny thing is after putting on the best DPS items I have come to a conclusion :

Best Mail Stuff : Linky
Only one blue gem in that; Relentless won't activate. More or less what I was looking at so far , just have to throw another purple in one of the red sockets (unfortunately).
#4111SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Bragor
Funny thing is after putting on the best DPS items I have come to a conclusion :

Best Mail Stuff : Linky

Best Mail/Leather Stuff : Linky

Leather/Mail gear provide better hp at the cost of a lowered mana pool but having a higher dps value.

Now... for that Tier 6 reitemezation please.
You mail set has 7309 hp, expect to die on......everything.

Also neither set uses the mocassins, surely they are better?
#4112SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hudini
I looked through as much of the thread as I could muster to try to find data to support the guidelines for using GoA vs Windfury Totem. The one link I did find was broken. I wonder if anyone here has a bookmark for some analysis on this subject.

I've got an enh shammy doing wonders for our melee group, but I noticed in last WWS that he was dropping GoA. The group config was Fury Warior, two Mutilate Rogues, a Combat Dagger rogue, and the Shammy. I'd like to have some decent data to support the use of Windfury Totem instead of GoA.

Incidentally, the WWS was for Hydross, so in my mind WF should definitely have been down since the rogues wouldn't have been using poisons at all.

Thanks.
#4113SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Toots Hepcat
From Section VIII.3 - Hit Rating:
A common misconception is that 'you can't get a WF proc if you miss' (similar to the notion that you can't crit unless you hit first).
Wait -- whose misconception? Windfury has a 36% chance to proc off an eligible hit. Eligibility is defined as "being outside the cooldown." Hit, I assume, is defined as "A swing that does not result in a dodge, parry, block or miss."

Obviously HitR/ER gear won't change the WF proc chance, and won't change eligibility. But they will increase the number of hits, some of which will be eligible, giving us more tries to proc Windfury over time. The proc rate will never exceed 36% of eligible hits, but it could approach 36% of eligible swings with enough HitR and ER.

I used Yo's sim to run a few 10000 hour tests using the default values and changing ONLY the values for Hit Rating. I saw an increase in WF damage of about 2 DPS per 1% Hit as I stepped up from 10 to 20. This predicts that there is a connection between Hit Rating and Windfury proc rate. It's just very small, and already included in the AEP calculations out of the sim.
#4114SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Originally Posted by Stigmata
You mail set has 7309 hp, expect to die on......everything.

Also neither set uses the mocassins, surely they are better?
[Quickstrider Moccasins] = 189 AEP with Kings.

[Shadowmaster's Boots] = 224.4 AEP with Kings.

Of course I am using the universal AEP values at the start of the page.

And yes having that full mail set will mean we are seriously gimped in the HP side of things.

Originally Posted by Tsaeb
Only one blue gem in that; Relentless won't activate. More or less what I was looking at so far , just have to throw another purple in one of the red sockets (unfortunately).
Oops My mistake. ./GiveCookie Tsaeb

Last edited by Bragor : 10/19/07 at 5:58 PM.
#4115SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Nite_Moogle
I've got an enh shammy doing wonders for our melee group, but I noticed in last WWS that he was dropping GoA. The group config was Fury Warior, two Mutilate Rogues, a Combat Dagger rogue, and the Shammy. I'd like to have some decent data to support the use of Windfury Totem instead of GoA.
Figure out how much damage their main hand white damage was responsible for and multiply it by 20%.
#4116SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Toots Hepcat
Hudini, you won't find much about that debate because it's long since settled.

But puzzle it out for yourself. Assume every member of your melee group is doing the same amount of damage -- 1000 DPS. Also assume they all get the same benefit as a shaman from a talented GoA -- 3.52% crit. And assume that value applies to all damage, as if the others in the party had 0% crit to start with.

Your group would go from doing 5000 DPS to doing 5175.

Now let's assume that you drop WF. Ignoring the AP boost, this will give 20% additional auto-attack "white damage" to everybody's MH but yours. The percentage of total DPS from main hand white damage can alter dramatically from player to player, but let's assume it's only 25%. Each of the members of your party are now doing 300 MH white damage and 750 OH/yellow damage, for a total of 1050 each.

Add this to your flat 1000, and you get 5200.

Then consider that all those assumptions are unrealistically low, and you'll realize that WF totem rocks and you should stop being so damn greedy. The only exceptions are a) not being in a melee group or b) having a bear main tank.
#4117SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Galeyra
Just a quick question:
Is Yo's Sim working at the Moment?
I tried it a couple of times and without changing anything, I always get huge different numbers for AEP. (every stat ranging between 0,5 and 2,5).
I use 10000 hours, do I have to use more hours?
#4118SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsaeb
Originally Posted by Bragor
[Quickstrider Moccasins] = 189 AEP with Kings.

[Shadowmaster's Boots] = 224.4 AEP with Kings.

Of course I am using the universal AEP values at the start of the page.
[Bold Crimson Spinel] = 22 AEP
[Inscribed Pyrestone] = 21 AEP

[Quickstrider Moccasins] gemmed = 232 AEP with Kings.

Capitalization in code = broken link.
#4119SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hudini
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Hudini, you won't find much about that debate because it's long since settled.

But puzzle it out for yourself. Assume every member of your melee group is doing the same amount of damage -- 1000 DPS. Also assume they all get the same benefit as a shaman from a talented GoA -- 3.52% crit. And assume that value applies to all damage, as if the others in the party had 0% crit to start with.

Your group would go from doing 5000 DPS to doing 5175.

Now let's assume that you drop WF. Ignoring the AP boost, this will give 20% additional auto-attack "white damage" to everybody's MH but yours. The percentage of total DPS from main hand white damage can alter dramatically from player to player, but let's assume it's only 25%. Each of the members of your party are now doing 300 MH white damage and 750 OH/yellow damage, for a total of 1050 each.

Then consider that all those assumptions are unrealistically low, and you'll realize that WF totem rocks and you should stop being so damn greedy. The only exceptions are a) not being in a melee group or b) having a bear main tank.
Oh, it's not me, mind you, it's one of the shammies in the raids I'm leading.

This is clear enough, but the posts I've read and the original post seem to imply that the big turning-point in group configuration is the addition of the warrior. Some claim that WF totem adds 200-300 DPS to a fury warrior.

I mean, I understand what the shaman is thinking "Well, I've got two mutilate rogues who depend on poisons being up, a combat dagger rogue with a pretty fast main-hand weapon, and a Fury warrior... well, GoA affects all of us, whereas WF is only going to affect two of us, so... GoA it is."

It only complicates matters that the rogues are going to have to remove their main-hand poison to see anything from the WF totem, so I've got to convince them too.



Sorry, I don't mean to go over covered ground and I do appreciate the starting point you've provided. I was just hoping there would be a good reference for the impact of WF totem on a fury warrior. Most of the other guidelines in the top-most post have some decent number crunching behind them.
#4120SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tedv
Originally Posted by Hudini
"Well, I've got two mutilate rogues who depend on poisons being up, a combat dagger rogue with a pretty fast main-hand weapon, and a Fury warrior... well, GoA affects all of us, whereas WF is only going to affect two of us, so... GoA it is."
The fast mainhand doesn't affect anything. There's no internal cooldown on windfury totem. Faster weapons have more procs but each proc is less damage. It averages out to the same damage.
#4121SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsaeb
In the case of Hydross, their poisons are negated in every Nature phase anyway. For me, it's either GoA or twist GoA/WF (rarely just WF), depending on the fight and group makeup. If there's more than two Rogues/Warriors (in any combination), and no Feral (we have 2 Ferals, both tank nearly always), I almost always twist. On Hydross specifically, I tend to drop just GoA, but that's more of a threat issue. I'm not sure how to address the issue of Mutilate; all of the Rogues in my guild are and always have been Combat.
#4122SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Tsaeb
[Bold Crimson Spinel] = 22 AEP
[Inscribed Pyrestone] = 21 AEP

[Quickstrider Moccasins] gemmed = 232 AEP with Kings.

Capitalization in code = broken link.
Both item values already include gems, the moccasins really aren't very good. From a DPS perspective they only score slightly higher than the Solarian and Vashj boots. [Shadowmaster's Boots] really are the clear best choice unless for some reason you value int over stam, in which case you'd want [Softstep Boots of Tracking].
#4123SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsaeb
Ah, I guess I learn yet again not to assume things. One of these days it will stick.
#4124SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mox
Originally Posted by Morelis
Both item values already include gems, the moccasins really aren't very good. From a DPS perspective they only score slightly higher than the Solarian and Vashj boots. [Shadowmaster's Boots] really are the clear best choice unless for some reason you value int over stam, in which case you'd want [Softstep Boots of Tracking].
Of course, at the point you reach this gear level the +hit on the moccasins becomes more attractive than the extra crit/ap on the shadowmaster boots. Atleast for me it was, and Yo's sim seemed to agree.
#4125SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Mox
Of course, at the point you reach this gear level the +hit on the moccasins becomes more attractive than the extra crit/ap on the shadowmaster boots. Atleast for me it was, and Yo's sim seemed to agree.
You'd have to have some pretty crazy AEP values for hit for this to be true. With crit/agi at 2.0 you'd need hit to score 3.8 before the moccasins become the superior choice.
#4126SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
I been thinking about T6 and expertise. Since hunters do not benefit from expertise we probably will not see any random mail with it. However, T6 is class specific so it would not be 'wasted' there. It would be perfect replacement to MP5/s imo. I dont know how much would we get for the MP5/s we have altough, does anyone know the cost in item budget for expertise?
#4127SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
I have seen several comments here that refer to how much of a waste it is to pick up the T5 shoulders. I have to disagree. The stats on this item by itself, and gemmed, are about 210.6 for me. It helps me meet RED gem requirements, and until I get at least 4 BT/Hyjal pieces or 4/5 T6, the 4-piece set bonus on T5 is worth about 110AEP for me.

I have been using Bow-stitched Leggings and T5 in the other slots. Even though I have Mail of Fevered Pursuit and Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, swapping them out would still result in a net DPS loss due to losing 4/5 T5. Until I can grab Grips of Damnation and Midnight Chestguard or Cursed Vision of Sargeras, I'll be hanging on to that 4-piece bonus.
#4128SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zhanos
What about 'Hand of Justice'?

I know Hand of Justice is a lower level trinket, but chance on hit an additional attack is pretty damn sweet, it also gives 20 AP.

My shaman when enhance (like at the time of this post) really gets alot of proc's, I would say at least 1-2 every farm mob, I dont raid with him much as enhance, so couldn't tell you its quality there.

And an addional attack can yeild me 300-2500 damage, especially if WF proc's off it.
While some items are merely 'on use gain 280 ap' and such.
#4129SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Neithan
Well HoJ is approximatelly 1.33% proc chance.

Maths please!

Edit: early morning spelling suckage.

Last edited by Neithan : 10/20/07 at 4:33 AM.
#4130SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
If you have access to [Syphon of the Nathrezim], dual wield it. (Put your first one in your OH if you have an MH-only weapon like Dragonstrike, otherwise it doesn't matter which hand you choose.)
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
#4131SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
I'm not really sure that we have a convincing/definitive answer for you on that. Run the sims.
#4132SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Yo's sim give dragonstike proc way too high AEP value its about 150aep with default value. In first page its 92aep.
#4133SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Paradox
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
Originally Posted by Rob
I'm not really sure that we have a convincing/definitive answer for you on that. Run the sims.
The sim isn't 100% acurate, and testing ingame is not practical because you can never have every single factor identical all instances.

What is important, is that whether you DW Syphon, use RT MH or use Dragonstike, the net dps will be within ~1% or each other.

If you have access to any of these weapons then you will be more than happy.

My personal slant on this is that RT/Syphon is the best combo (I have all 3 of the above items)
#4134SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Kasi
Trying to figure out an AEP that I can use for comparing T5, T6 and the new badge/ZA gear. It's hard for me to do this since my current gear and spec is elemental so I have no personal stats I can really input in Yo's sim.

The first post in this thread has a T5 AEP as:

Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings)
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings)
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.25 (low estimate)

Not sure on haste, since the original post doesn't have any info on that. I'm assuming from the example of belts later that it is also 1.4?

Sebudei's who I used for making a gearing list had one of:

Strength: 2.2
Crit: 2
Agility: 2
Hit: 2
Haste: 1.9 (Edit: Typo from Sebudei's post)
AP: 1
Armor Pen: 0.33

Since I am able to pick and choose offspec items right now, I am definitely curious in getting an optimal AEP values I can use to compare possible T6 upgrades vs badge/ZA rewards. For now I am going with Sebudei's. I just wanted to know if those numbers match up with others in T6 gear.

Last edited by Kasi : 10/20/07 at 2:09 PM.
#4135SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
Those values that Sebudai had match up pretty well with mine, except for Haste. I get an AEP value of about 2.0 for haste.
#4136SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Oh yeah, that was a typo there. Haste was 1.9 in his, not 1.4. Alright, well I'm glad I can use those values to work things out.
#4137SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Paradox
Does this mean if I do have a Dragonstrike, replace it with a second Syphon when I get it? I read a few pages back someone was saying Dragonstrike was worth more dps.
See, the thing is the difference in dps is really really marginal. I'd say it comes down to preference, I wouldn't mind mainhanding a Syphon or Rising Tide, but we've gotten one Syphon and zero Rising Tide in about 2 months or so. I took the last Syphon and unfortunatly now people want a Syphon for pvp purposes, so I'm not sure I want to bid that much DKP on such a small upgrade.
That and Dragonstrike looks cool! I might pick up a Rising Tide, though - just to see the difference...

And of course it depends greatly on your own AEP values, if you value Haste pretty high, Dragonstrike will get better.
#4138SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Kasi
Trying to figure out an AEP that I can use for comparing T5, T6 and the new badge/ZA gear. It's hard for me to do this since my current gear and spec is elemental so I have no personal stats I can really input in Yo's sim.

The first post in this thread has a T5 AEP as:

Strength = 2 (2.2 w/Kings)
Crit Rating = 2
Agility = 1.8 (2 w/Kings)
Hit Rating = 1.4
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.25 (low estimate)

Not sure on haste, since the original post doesn't have any info on that. I'm assuming from the example of belts later that it is also 1.4?

Sebudei's who I used for making a gearing list had one of:

Strength: 2.2
Crit: 2
Agility: 2
Hit: 2
Haste: 1.9 (Edit: Typo from Sebudei's post)
AP: 1
Armor Pen: 0.33

Since I am able to pick and choose offspec items right now, I am definitely curious in getting an optimal AEP values I can use to compare possible T6 upgrades vs badge/ZA rewards. For now I am going with Sebudei's. I just wanted to know if those numbers match up with others in T6 gear.
The numbers are all going to be very close, look at the difference between t5 and nearly optimal gear- .5 added to hit and .04 added to armor penetration. My results put armor penetration and crit a little higher, but if you're just starting out the t5 numbers should be an easy guideline to follow.
#4139SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Haste is there, its just detailed out a little bit lower in a subsection. I'll be changing that around before long anyways as it has some bad assumptions in it (that whole 1.4 - 1.5 valley thing) that need to be removed. Haste was valued at 1.48 for the default set.
#4140SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Yeah thing is I'm not starting out from early T5. I am in a T6 guild working through early BT and almost have Azgalor dead and I raid as elemental. However right now Elemental is looking like its going to be nerfed to hell. We also have no enhancement shaman, only occasionally an arms warrior and not a ton of rogues/hunters. I'm picking up this stuff in case the nerf goes through. So I am able to pick up gear that would otherwise be sharded.

So far I've managed to pick up a Mantle of Darkness, a Valestalker Girdle and a Pendant of the Perilous. I could have also picked up a Moccasins if I had wanted, but I figured the new rogue socketed badge boots are better. From what I can tell the mantle and girdle are basically best in game right now.

Looking at badge gear, I like the cloaks better than anything I can get pre BT (since I won't be getting the BT ones or likely the Kael one).

Shallow Grave Trousers from Badges look nearly as good as Bow Stitched (which I doubt I'd get), the Tabi boots seem to be better than Quickstrider's (maybe not as good as the Mother boots but I'm not getting those), Master Assasin's Wraps from badges also looks to be very competitive with BT drops. I'm not sure on helm though. Obviously I'm not getting the one from Illidan. Maybe the one from Illidari Council if both hunters have T6 helms from Archimonde by then.

So it looks like:
Head: Either one from ZA.
Neck: Pendant of Perilous
Shoulders: Mantle of Darkness
Back: One of the new badge/ZA ones
Chest: Shadowtooth Trollskin or Nether Shadow Tunic. Fevered Pursuit and Bloodsea Brigand's vest are both options too.
Bracers: Master Assasins Wristwraps
Gloves: Fists of Makua
Belt: Valestalkers Girdle
Legs: Shallow Grave Trousers
Boots: Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots
Rings: ZA event ring (the caster one wouldn't be better than either the BT trash one or MH rep ring anyway) + one other
Trinkets: Ashtongue one plus one other. Trinkets don't drop a lot, so it would likely be either Bloodlust Brooch, the one from ZA or something like Hourglass.

Weapons: I like the offhand from ZA since it has good stats. Would be happy mainhanding one of the two BT ones and offhanded Fury. Obviously mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding Syphon would be my preference, but Fury and Netherbane both seem passable offhand options.

Totem: Heroic Mana Tombs I guess.

Edit: Would I be right in that the boots and bracers, and to a lesser extent leggings are the best of the new badge loot?
#4141SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Just for your info:

I found the bug which caused my model to output more WF dps than it should, I accidentially doubled the the full ap for offhand, instead of only doubling the wf ap bonus.

My model is now fairly consistent with Yo's simulator, back again in the <5% range.
#4142SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Well first off I'd encourage you to look at Blink's data in the elemental threads because my understanding is that these 2.3 changes are not a nerf after all. (But lets not discuss that here) Secondly, if you have no Enhance gear to start with but will be picking up T5/T6 equivalent, than use the baseline AEP to start.
#4143SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Kasi
Believe me, I've kept up on those. As Bink just said today.

"For crying out loud that's annoying.

I bet they're going to stick with the "It's a buff" argument due to the stopcast change."

It's a dps nerf bigtime. Around 6% minimum, shamans on the test realm are reporting fairly signifigant dps losses, although part of that is due to this new stopcasting "fix".

As for the AEP, I'll use Sebudei's, mainly since we're phasing out T5 and any gear I'll be getting will be either T6 or gear equivalent to T6 from ZA or badges.
#4144SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
Executioner VS Mongoose

I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
#4145SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by tzenes
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
One problem, executioner doesn't stack.

Was too quick to respond, are you including faerie fire and curse of recklessness? You just said "Assuming full sunders".
#4146SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tzenes
Originally Posted by rava
One problem, executioner doesn't stack.

Was too quick to respond, are you including faerie fire and curse of recklessness? You just said "Assuming full sunders".
This is only assuming sunders.

Executioner does not stack, however, the proc rate does. Of course this is not a linear increase. I assumed the first Executioner was an average 240 armor pen, and the second was 240*.75

Edit: this is also a lowball estimate, as the second can refresh the first, so it should come out to above the 180 I used for calculations
#4147SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Sebudai
I think Haste Rating is closer to 2.0 for me too these days. Also Armor Penetration is now closer to 0.40 for me.
#4148SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Paradox
Originally Posted by Stigmata
The sim isn't 100% acurate, and testing ingame is not practical because you can never have every single factor identical all instances.

What is important, is that whether you DW Syphon, use RT MH or use Dragonstike, the net dps will be within ~1% or each other.

If you have access to any of these weapons then you will be more than happy.

My personal slant on this is that RT/Syphon is the best combo (I have all 3 of the above items)

Is that because Syphon being slightly slower in the OH gives you more WF procs? (on the main hand, I mean)

Personally, using Dragonstrike/Merciless OH, I find I get a lot more offhand procs than mainhand... which can't be good at all. I guess i'll grab a rising tide and main hand it with a syphon then.

Last edited by Paradox : 10/20/07 at 8:22 PM.
#4149SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Yes a slightly faster MH gives your MH a slight advantage in wf procs.

And Stigmata is correct the difference between DW Syphon, RT/Syphon and Syphon/Cleaver is in the 1% range, usually the RT/Syphon combo is the best due to the above mentioned advantage.
#4150SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by tzenes
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
Vestments of Hibernation is druid only ;(
#4151SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by tzenes
I did some preliminary work on Executioner using Yo's Simulator with a constant 240 armor pen. As a result my dps values should actually be lower for Executioner than the real values:

On bosses with 7700 armor:
with 500 armor pen (full ZA and BoJ gear) and duel Executioner, my dps sits at: 984
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 998
assuming full sunders

On bosses with 6200 armor:
with duel Executioner 1097
with duel mongoose my dps sits at 1109

for reference (because someone might ask):
Mon/Ex: 1103

Given that 6200 and 7700 are the most common boss armor values (with 6200 being more common on harder fights, Vashj, Kael, Illidan), this clearly shows that Mongoose is better than Executioner until you hit black temple.

So where is the break even point? Not surprisingly at 620 armor pen, Executioner out preforms Mongoose (on 6200 armor bosses, on 7700 its 720 armor pen).

The armor pen gear I used to hit the 500 mark is:
Coif of the Jungle Stalker
Shifting Camouflage Pants
War-Feathered Loop
Steadying Bracers
Vestments of Hibernation

Until you hit the 620 mark, you should consider 4 points of armor pen to = 1 point of attack power
at the 620 mark, this number jumps to 3:1 with the addition of executioner.

The 620 mark becomes viable with the addition of Choker of Serrated Blades a trash drop out of black temple.

You can get close with the addition of season 3 gear or this boj pvp cloak: Dory's Embrace

Please remember this is preliminary work. It is not accurate. I'll have to start doing testing on the PTR (as soon as bliz will let me on) to find out real values
Vestments of Hibernation is druid only ;(
#4152SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boro
Just a quick one from an Orc point of view and not 2.3 based.

I have 2 Syphons, 1 Rising tide and a Wicked Edge of the Planes

For the last few months I have found that Wicked Edge of the Planes MH and Rising Tide OH beats all other combinations.

However, I am expecting things to change a little in 2.3 and I am examining WWS parses on some of the stuff we are doing. The first boss in ZA is a good tank and spank opportunity; I think he has like 1.8 M hit points so you get a pretty good sample. At the moment I am trying to keep gear and trinket the same on him to try different weapon combinations.

I tend to run by gut instinct on weapon choices and I like the Stam on RT and the Crit on Wicked. Both Yo's Sim and Wow Optimizer are giving me an average reduction in overall expected DPS of 50-100 when ever I change weapons for a Syphon/Syphon or RT/Syphon mix. A smaller reduction occurs with Wicked/Syphon combination.

The differences in 2.2 have always been small and the situational environments for bosses often can account for changes in DPS as opposed to explicit weapon changes. I only judge my DPS capability (baseline possible) and weapon mix on one boss and thats Teron. To be fair the only other 'swaps' I do from a gear perspective on other bosses are based on Stamina needs for a particular encounter.

For those who don't think Stamina isn't an issue in BT, (Hyjal to a lesser extent.....think again). We usually only run with 2 Pallies so Kings for me is not always a given. When, I do get it though its like Xmas.
#4153SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stallo
I'd like to call the hit -> AEP value into question. Sure, we do gain alot of hit from the talents, and its enough to make misses on yellow damage dissapear. But, however the regular white damage is a very big portion of your dps. And ontop of this, the rest of the stats are more or less directly linked to it. Simply because you do not get flurries, nor do you get wf's when you miss.

So I just ask, whats the point of AP, crits and hits, when you miss.

I've tried jerking around with some calculations to this, but hard.
#4154SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Stallo
I'd like to call the hit -> AEP value into question. Sure, we do gain alot of hit from the talents, and its enough to make misses on yellow damage dissapear. But, however the regular white damage is a very big portion of your dps. And ontop of this, the rest of the stats are more or less directly linked to it. Simply because you do not get flurries, nor do you get wf's when you miss.

So I just ask, whats the point of AP, crits and hits, when you miss.

I've tried jerking around with some calculations to this, but hard.
No one is saying +hit is useless. What we're saying is that +hit has a diminished value compared to other stats once you have a decent amount of +hit. There is a huge drop off in the value of +hit (as you have noted) once you cap hit for your yellow melee attacks. At that point (achievable primarily through talents) you're better off spending equivalent ilevel item budget on other stats as opposed to HIT.

The best thing to do is to run Yo's sim and figure out what value hit has for you at your gear levels. A lot of time has been put into "jerking around with some calculations." As you have noted, AP, STR, Crit, Agi, Haste all interplay with +hit. The genius of Yo's sim is that it finds the maximum dps value for you based on your current stats/gear and allows you to see exactly how important +hit is.
#4155SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
"So I just ask, whats the point of AP, crits and hits, when you miss."
If I understand that right you have to learn how attack table work. LINK

Edit: Link was missing.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/22/07 at 6:48 AM.
#4156SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Idioteque
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
"So I just ask, whats the point of AP, crits and hits, when you miss."
If I understand that right you have to learn how attack table work.
Pitbuller you either didnt read the previous post or well your just plain inbred to the point of having more fingers than braincells.

Originally Posted by Mbuzi
No one is saying +hit is useless. What we're saying is that +hit has a diminished value compared to other stats once you have a decent amount of +hit. There is a huge drop off in the value of +hit (as you have noted) once you cap hit for your yellow melee attacks. At that point (achievable primarily through talents) you're better off spending equivalent ilevel item budget on other stats as opposed to HIT.

The best thing to do is to run Yo's sim and figure out what value hit has for you at your gear levels. A lot of time has been put into "jerking around with some calculations." As you have noted, AP, STR, Crit, Agi, Haste all interplay with +hit. The genius of Yo's sim is that it finds the maximum dps value for you based on your current stats/gear and allows you to see exactly how important +hit is.

Last edited by Idioteque : 10/21/07 at 9:00 PM.
#4157SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Stallo
And ontop of this, the rest of the stats are more or less directly linked to it. Simply because you do not get flurries, nor do you get wf's when you miss..

No, that's not how the attack table works. If you have a 30% crit rate, then 30% of all your swings are crits. The attack table doesn't check for a hit and then a crit, it is either a hit or a crit. They are two seperate and unique events. There's plenty of info available on these forums about this, not to mention that I explicitly mention it in the OP in several places as being a complete fallacy.
#4158SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Toots Hepcat
"whats the point of AP, crits and hits(sic), when you miss."

For the missed swing? None.

But you can't think of dps in terms of potential for each swing. You have to think of it over time. And over time, you get less of a benefit from HitR than you do from other stats.
#4159SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
The amount of people who struggle with even the most basic mathematical concepts or view math as some form of archaic sorcery that is not to be trusted is actually pretty surprising.

This thread is literally over 150 pages long at this point, and you're going to come here, ignore everything that has been posted before, and question our calculations off of some retarded hunch like "but you can't crit if you don't hit lol". You honestly think something like that hasn't been covered in a thread that is 167 pages long? Seriously? Jesus Christ. PLEASE read the thread before you post a question.

Last edited by Sebudai : 10/21/07 at 10:59 PM.
#4160SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Sebudai
The amount of people who struggle with even the most basic mathematical concepts or view math as some form of archaic sorcery that is not to be trusted is actually pretty surprising.

This thread is literally over 150 pages long at this point, and you're going to come here, ignore everything that has been posted before, and question our calculations off of some retarded hunch like "but you can't crit if you don't hit lol". You honestly think something like that hasn't been covered in a thread that is 167 pages long? Seriously? Jesus Christ. PLEASE read the thread before you post a question.
Dude, did you know theres like this, 3 second cooldown on Windfury?

/boggle
#4161SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kharg
I've read a good deal of this thread, and I must say that the amount of work you guys have put into it is amazing. I haven't had the time to read it all thoroughly (and I've been visiting the thread on a regular basis for quite some time), so you will have to excuse me if my question is answered somewhere in this thread...

My interest is purely PvP, and most of the calculations in this thread is for raid purposes. I'd desperately want to see if enhancement will be somewhat viable in PvP after patch 2.3, but it's kinda hard to find a PvP discussion that's interesting at all. Is there a similar thread/forum that discusses the PvP aspects, and have you thought about making a PvP section in the OP?
#4162SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Darkmantle
Originally Posted by Sebudai
The amount of people who struggle with even the most basic mathematical concepts or view math as some form of archaic sorcery that is not to be trusted is actually pretty surprising.
While I'm a naturally mathematical person I've meet plenty of people who have this view. I think its partially to do withe the way some people are taught mathematics. In the early years of mathematics educations things are often explained by "use this formula and you will get the answer" it is a rare teacher who can help students that have little mathematical gift to see the underlying structure and order that connects all mathematics and hence have faith in the calculations done from them.

To many people it is archaic sorcery. Though at least I think that is a better attitude than some people who are proud of their lack of mathematical knowledge/understanding because of some idea about it being associated with geekiness and/or elitism.
#4163SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mox
Originally Posted by Morelis
You'd have to have some pretty crazy AEP values for hit for this to be true. With crit/agi at 2.0 you'd need hit to score 3.8 before the moccasins become the superior choice.
When I ran Yo's sim to decide which to get the moccasions came out @ 1403 dps and the shadowmasters @ 1407 dps. I didn't really consider a 4 dps gain a superior choice in this situation.
#4164SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Akkron
I was bored and decided to run some quick tests on the differences in # of MH and OH windfury procs with different speed weapons over a short combat duration.

I noticed Yo's sim doesn't seem to calculate too much of a dps difference when you change the weapon speeds around but I figure that its programmed to assume constant dps. But with the way Raid encounters are designed, Gruul's Shatters, Vashj's entangles, Leotheras' Whirlwind, etc... I wanted to see what weapon would proc the most mainhand hits reliably when only given a short chance to attack.

M represents a mainhand proc, O an offhand.

2.7 Mainhand / 2.6 Offhand
TEST 1: m-m-m-o-o-o-m-o-m-m-o-o-m-m-m-o-o-o-o-o
Total MH Procs: 9
Total OH Procs: 11
TEST 2: o-m-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-o-m-m-m-o-o-o-m
Total MH Procs: 8
Total OH Procs: 12
TEST 3: m-o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-m-o-o-m-o
Total MH Procs: 8
Total OH Procs: 12
TEST 4: o-o-o-o-m-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-m-o-o-o
Total MH Procs: 5
Total OH Procs: 15
TEST 5: m-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m-m-o-o-o
Total MH Procs: 10
Total OH PRocs: 10

2.7/2.6 Total MH Procs: 40
2.7/2.6 Total OH Procs: 60
2.7/2.6 Average MH Procs: 8
2.7/2.6 Average OH Procs: 12
2.6 Mainhand / 2.6 Offhand
TEST 1: o-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-m-o-m-m-o-o-o-m-m-m-m
Total MH Procs: 13
Total OH Procs: 7
TEST 2: m-m-m-o-o-o-o-m-m-o-o-o-o-m-m-m-m-m-m-m
Total MH Procs: 12
Total OH Procs: 8
TEST 3: m-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-m-m
Total MH Procs: 11
Total OH Procs: 9
TEST 4: m-m-o-m-m-m-o-o-m-m-o-o-o-m-o-m-o-m-m-m
Total MH Procs: 12
Total OH Procs: 8
TEST 5: m-m-m-m-o-m-o-o-o-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-o-m
Total MH Procs: 13
Total OH Procs: 7

2.6/2.6 Total MH Procs: 61
2.6/2.6 Total OH Procs: 39
2.6/2.6 Average MH Procs: 12.2
2.6/2.6 Average OH Procs: 7.8
2.7 Mainhand / 2.9 Offhand
TEST 1: m-m-m-m-o-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-o-o-o-m-m-o-m
Total MH Procs: 14
Total OH Procs: 6
TEST 2: o-m-m-o-m-m-o-o-m-o-m-o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-o
Total MH Procs: 9 
Total OH Procs: 11
TEST 3: m-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-m-m-o-m-m-o-m-m-o
Total MH Procs: 15
Total OH Procs: 5
TEST 4: o-o-o-m-m-o-m-o-o-m-m-m-o-m-m-m-m-o-m-0
Total MH Procs: 11
Total OH Procs: 9
TEST 5: o-m-m-m-o-o-m-o-o-o-o-m-m-o-o-m-o-m-o-o
Total MH Procs: 8
Total OH Procs: 12

2.7/2.9 Total MH Procs: 57
2.7/2.9 Total OH Procs: 43
2.7/2.9 Average MH Procs: 11.4
2.7/2.9 Average OH Procs: 8.6
A 2.6 Mainhand and Offhand combo produced the most consistant numbers, ranging in only a 2 proc difference between the offhand and mainhand over the course of tests. Mainhanding a 2.7 speed weapon with a 2.6 speed offhand yielded a lower rate of mainhand windfury procs for the entire test. And differing speed weapons were more effective than that, but spiky.

I realize this is a very very short pool of data to work with but meh, I figure every little bit can help, and was just curious what kinda figures I could get within a short period of time.
#4165SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Akkron
A 2.6 Mainhand and Offhand combo produced the most consistant numbers, ranging in only a 2 proc difference between the offhand and mainhand over the course of tests. Mainhanding a 2.7 speed weapon with a 2.6 speed offhand yielded a lower rate of mainhand windfury procs for the entire test. And differing speed weapons were more effective than that, but spiky.

I realize this is a very very short pool of data to work with but meh, I figure every little bit can help, and was just curious what kinda figures I could get within a short period of time.
very interesting post.

I just wish we could have had a larger sample to get really relevant datas, but as i'm currently dual wielding 2.70spd weapons, your data seem to say that the OH windfury procs wouldn't be such an issue.
#4166SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Griff
Originally Posted by Malan
The first 5 weapon skill is worth 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge.

For orcs
You will want to choose axes since your racial gives you 3% hit and 0.2% crit as well as an unknown amount of anti-parry and anti-dodge if you equip an axe.
Is there a test you've done that proved this? Not that im denying it, would just like to see how you came to this conclusion.
#4167SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Griff
Is there a test you've done that proved this? Not that im denying it, would just like to see how you came to this conclusion.
Weapon skill is being reworked in 2.3 so I wouldn't read to much into that info.
#4168SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Griff
Is there a test you've done that proved this? Not that im denying it, would just like to see how you came to this conclusion.
There's a thread on weapon skill that had some extensive testing done, but it's somewhat of a moot point now that the racial bonus is being changed to 1% crit next patch. It still makes axes choice weapons for orcs, and expertise is still quite good.
#4169SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Griff
Thanks for quick reply. I know it's getting changed, i was just curious as to how it was worked out. There are also a couple of people in my guild who nay say.

Last edited by Griff : 10/22/07 at 11:32 AM.
#4170SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Yuma
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
It's weapon speed dependent, so it's not a straight conversion.

+weapon damage amount / weapon speed = equivalent DPS
2/2.6 = .75
equivalent DPS * 14 = equivalent AP
10.5 AP

With BoK and UR, 4 stats is a little over 9 AP so the difference is very minimal in terms of raw AP, but there's also benefit from the other stats (namely some crit) that makes +stats a better ring enchant.
As I imagine the theorycraft on this still holds, and to prevent the numerous questions that will likely be generated related to this with the Stats to ring enchant being made available on Lower City faction, can we add a little snippet to the front page on Ring enchants recommending Stats over Striking?

Last edited by Yuma : 10/22/07 at 11:44 AM.
#4171SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
I'm glad you added back the Pawn string for people to use. I think some people that didn't understand it well probably had a hard time formatting the string.

I'd like to add that you should add in the Armor Pen into it to help evaluate the new gear that's coming out with it.

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetratioin=.25 )
#4172SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Veritas17
When should I be using my stormstrike? During the windfury cooldown period or when there's a window for windfury to hit? I'm trying to get a bearing on how to set up a dps rotation I guess.

And theres a few mods listed in the beginning but which is actually the most useful for wanting to have some kind of active ui for a raiding environment? Tooltip things i'm not really needing so much.
#4173SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
I like to Stormstrike every time it's up. Some people prefer to wait if the WF cooldown is almost up. As far as rotations go, you may want to go beat on a blasted lands mob for a few hours to get a feel for it.

Either way, Disquette's mod it probably what you want to be using.
#4174SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Yuma.

As I imagine the theorycraft on this still holds, and to prevent the numerous questions that will
likely be generated related to this with the Stats to ring enchant being made available on Lower 
City faction, can we add a little snippet to the front page on Ring enchants recommending Stats
over Striking?
Enchant Ring - Striking
Permanently enchant ring to increase weapon damage by 2.
Its +2 damage to both weapons.
So its AEP value for 2.6speed weapons
2 *(2 / 2.6) = 1.538wDps
Using 8.48 Aep per wDps Its 13.05Aep

Enchant Ring - Stats
Permanently enchant a ring to increase all stats by 4.
This is 16.8Aep + 4* stamina, int & spi.

Stats is superior.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/22/07 at 2:56 PM.
#4175SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Kharg
My interest is purely PvP, and most of the calculations in this thread is for raid purposes. I'd desperately want to see if enhancement will be somewhat viable in PvP after patch 2.3, but it's kinda hard to find a PvP discussion that's interesting at all. Is there a similar thread/forum that discusses the PvP aspects, and have you thought about making a PvP section in the OP?
Enhancement is only becoming more viable in PvP with the Shamanistic Rage buff, the removal of Frost Shock from diminishing returns, the change to our 11-point talent (reduced mana cost of shocks after a melee crit), and the Mental Quickness buff (AP->Spellpower conversion for harder-hitting shocks). Realistically, though, this is hard to "theorycraft" and discussion of PvP usually weighs more intangible factors into consideration. Check out this thread: http://elitistjerks.com/f38/t13634-s...pe_choice_2v2/
Originally Posted by Veritas17
When should I be using my stormstrike? During the windfury cooldown period or when there's a window for windfury to hit? I'm trying to get a bearing on how to set up a dps rotation I guess.
It was a while ago, but someone simmed hitting SS right away, hitting SS after the WF cooldown was up, and hitting SS right away if there were over ~1.5 or ~2.0 seconds left on WF cooldown but waiting if the cooldown wasn't up. The winning choice (in terms of DPS) was the third option and I believe that is what most raiding enhancement shamans are doing, but really, it's all sort of non-deterministic. For example, I tend to wait to hit SS if there's something else that uses a GCD I could do (shock, re-drop a totem).
#4176SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Its +2 damage to both weapons.
If you're doing this, then you double the contribution from +stats as well since it applies to each weapon -- in which case you discover that +weapon damage still sucks.
#4177SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Nite_moogle:
If you're doing this, then you double the contribution from +stats as well since it applies to
each weapon -- in which case you discover that +weapon damage still sucks.

I double checked my math and there should be any errors.

This should explain math behind 1wDps = 8.48aep.

Quick math how compare weapon dps to ap.
If we assume that Mh and Oh get WF procs equally: (not perfectly truth)
Both suffer same penalties from migitation and avoidance also weapon mastery benefit both.
Only difference is unleashed rage +10% ap and shamanist rage mana gain.

This lead that:
MH weapon dps AEP = [(dps * 14 * 1 aep) / 1.5] / 1.1 = 8.4848...
OH weapon dps AEP = [(dps * 14 * 1 aep) / 0.75] / 1.1 = 4.2424...

Last edited by Pitbuller : 10/22/07 at 6:08 PM.
#4178SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tulpa
Regarding the Flurry Axe

I have spent a lot of time reading this post. The information is impressive. It does appear to be aimed at end game more than anything else. Im not a number cruncher or mathematician so some of the information is greek to me. I also searched repeatedly for information about this weapon.

Could someone either show the numbers or at least the logic behind whether the Flurry Axe would make a good main hand weapon for my enhancement shaman.

I like the idea of an extra swing proc from the weapon but no one seems to know if it will proc windfury. I also don't know how much the lower weapon damage will effect over all dps. If there is anything else I should know, I would appreciate the heads up.

Thank you.
#4179SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Tulpa
I have spent a lot of time reading this post. The information is impressive. It does appear to be aimed at end game more than anything else. Im not a number cruncher or mathematician so some of the information is greek to me. I also searched repeatedly for information about this weapon.

Could someone either show the numbers or at least the logic behind whether the Flurry Axe would make a good main hand weapon for my enhancement shaman.

I like the idea of an extra swing proc from the weapon but no one seems to know if it will proc windfury. I also don't know how much the lower weapon damage will effect over all dps. If there is anything else I should know, I would appreciate the heads up.

Thank you.
It's not the weapon damage you should be concerned about (I presume you're talking about using it for leveling and not at 70) but rather the speed. It is much too fast, and I suspect the proc rate would have to be extremely high to make up for the speed.
#4180SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Akkron
Originally Posted by Rob
It was a while ago, but someone simmed hitting SS right away, hitting SS after the WF cooldown was up, and hitting SS right away if there were over ~1.5 or ~2.0 seconds left on WF cooldown but waiting if the cooldown wasn't up. The winning choice (in terms of DPS) was the third option and I believe that is what most raiding enhancement shamans are doing, but really, it's all sort of non-deterministic. For example, I tend to wait to hit SS if there's something else that uses a GCD I could do (shock, re-drop a totem).
I usually just mash SS when it is up, perhaps this is a bad idea. I do however wait a second to SS if I need to redrop a totem, shock, pop an instant heal or something like this.

I'm just curious does it really make any difference, other than SS has a chance to proc weapon buffs, dragonspine, etc if those are just going off their internal cooldowns?
#4181SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
SS gives you two opportunities (three?) to proc windfury, instantly, with mainhand getting the first opportunity. Using a windfury cooldown plugin of some kind (Disquettes is nice) allows you to see when WF is out of cooldown. If you Stormstrike when it's out of cooldown, you're giving yourself two, instant opportunities to get a proc.

This is purely playstyle. There is some DPS gain to be had with well timed SS's, however _always_ delaying them, just to hit the WFCD, probably has a detrimental effect on your DPS, as well as raid DPS if someone is using your Stormstrike debuff. It has been my experience that WFCD plugins are very helpful as hints. For example, if I can either Shock or SS, I will Shock first if that will let me SS out of WFCD, or drop totems, etc. I think that is what Rob was saying.

Side Note: You mentioned instant heals. Does casting an instant LHW w/ T5 set bonus reset the swing timer?
#4182SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Side Note: You mentioned instant heals. Does casting an instant LHW w/ T5 set bonus reset the swing timer?
Yes, as does a NS'd heal if you have a silly spec.
#4183SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
From first post.
XIII. Swing Timer
Shaman instant cast spells such as shocks and poison/disease cleanse do not reset the swing timer.
Certain things do however - obviously stopping to cast a LHW or HW will reset the swing timer, 
and so will War Stomp for Tauren. Less obvious is the T5 2pc set bonus - an instant cast LHW 
proc. It has been confirmed that using the Invigorated proc to cast a heal will reset your swing 
timers. Natures Swiftness will also reset your swing timer when you use up the buff for a cast.
Edit: too slow.
#4184SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
*facepalm* thank you
#4185SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tulpa
[quote=Skiace;521775]It's not the weapon damage you should be concerned about (I presume you're talking about using it for leveling and not at 70) but rather the speed. It is much too fast, and I suspect the proc rate would have to be extremely high to make up for the speed.[/QUOTE

Yes it would be for leveling purposes and I am thinking axes because of my orc racial. You basically confirmed what I was thinking. I anticipated that WF would make up for the lower top end damage. The speed is what I was most curious apart. That axe is as fast as most daggers and as we all know, daggers are trash for a shaman.

Obviously you want a slow OH (I'm looking at 2.6 or slower weapons). What is the fastest MH I should consider. Based on your statement and a rethink of speed I would guess something atleast 2.2 or slower.
#4186SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Stigmata
Originally Posted by Tulpa
Yes it would be for leveling purposes and I am thinking axes because of my orc racial. You basically confirmed what I was thinking. I anticipated that WF would make up for the lower top end damage. The speed is what I was most curious apart. That axe is as fast as most daggers and as we all know, daggers are trash for a shaman.

Obviously you want a slow OH (I'm looking at 2.6 or slower weapons). What is the fastest MH I should consider. Based on your statement and a rethink of speed I would guess something atleast 2.2 or slower.
Not sure what level you are, but I really dont think weapon speed matters up until 50+ possibly later than that.

Last edited by Stigmata : 10/23/07 at 3:19 AM.
#4187SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Veritas17
... disqodice? yeah its no longer on curse.

Is there another name the mod went by? I can't find it -any-where.
#4188SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Originally Posted by Stigmata
Not sure what level you are, but I really dont think weapon speed matters up until 50+ possibly later than that.
Why is that? People leveling will want the highest DPS possible aswell (I know I did anyway).
#4189SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3wootles
DisqoDice was pulled by Disquette since Blizzard will be fixing totem twisting in the future.

-Leka
#4190SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by vorda
Why is that? People leveling will want the highest DPS possible aswell (I know I did anyway).
At freakishly low AP/Crit levels, 2 weapons with the highest listed dps with any enchants on them will be more than adequate. Shaman DW is broken from 40-58, nothing really blenders shit faster.
#4191SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Veritas17
... disqodice? yeah its no longer on curse.

Is there another name the mod went by? I can't find it -any-where.
I don't know why people would want it now, but I put a link to a working version of the mod back in my sig.

Last edited by Disquette : 10/23/07 at 12:30 PM.
#4192SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Veritas17
I was looking for a stormstrike addon timer ... thing. Something more shaman friendly then the dull standard ui that blizzard gives us.

I've never used a ui for my shaman outside of ct raidmod back in the day and that wasn't really for shaman either.

Trying to get a better grasp on things i'd need for making my raiding more efficient.
#4193SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Chr
Originally Posted by Disquette
I don't know why people would want it now, but I put a link to a working version of the mod back in my sig.
I hope you don't pull it completely Disquette. Even with twisting eventually being 'fixed' I still find your mod the best for SS/WF, and shock cooldown timing. Even more usefull than the ones built into mods like Enhancer.
#4194SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Seidule
I was using Enhancer, which for some bizarre reason does not include a Stormstrike timer. Why? I do not know. Thanks Disquette.
#4195SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Off topic, but from a few pages back.

Season Three Weapons.


On the PTR right now when viewing the weapons you see a 2.6 speed "One Handed" Version of each season three axe and mace.

This version costs 2625 points but has no rating requirement.



Then there is the 2.6 speed "Offhand Only" season three weapons. These do have a rating requirement of 1850 but only cost 1300 points.

Is this confirmed a bug? Or can we buy the "One Handed" version of the season three without the rating requirement?
#4196SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Veritas17
I guess but i'm more confused at how one gets an 1850 rating? I mean I play for my team, we just hit 1900 rating but what constitutes a PERSON 1850 rating? Plus am I blind or was there not any season3 maces or offhands? I saw fist/dagger/axes/swords but i'm sure I didn't see a 1h Mace anywhere :/
#4197SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Noise
Originally Posted by Veritas17
I guess but i'm more confused at how one gets an 1850 rating? I mean I play for my team, we just hit 1900 rating but what constitutes a PERSON 1850 rating? Plus am I blind or was there not any season3 maces or offhands? I saw fist/dagger/axes/swords but i'm sure I didn't see a 1h Mace anywhere :/

You have to be on a team that has that rating. Not only that but you have to have been present for a certain percentage of all the matches played.

(To keep people from just joining a team to get the rating then leaving)

There is definatly a mace. It is the ugliest thing I have ever seen.
#4198SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Diogo
Originally Posted by vorda
Why is that? People leveling will want the highest DPS possible aswell (I know I did anyway).
I think he meant lvl 40+, and that would be because that is when you get DW. Which means that that's when the cooldown becomes an issue. With 2h or 1h and shield the cooldown does not really matter, as it is doubtfull you will get any weapons to go below 1.5 seconds just with flurry, and there is no off hand to "steal" procs.
#4199SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Shabadu
At freakishly low AP/Crit levels, 2 weapons with the highest listed dps with any enchants on them will be more than adequate. Shaman DW is broken from 40-58, nothing really blenders shit faster.
Dual Flurry Axes with Crusader. Ridiculously OP and fun for the whole family.
#4200SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Noise
Is this confirmed a bug? Or can we buy the "One Handed" version of the season three without the rating requirement?
It's not confirmed to be a bug, but it just doesn't make very much sense, given that all 2H weapons have the rating requirement. My personal speculation is that people are intended to be able to buy the Off-Hand version without the rating requirement, but the One Hand version is supposed to require 1850 personal rating. (The caster offhands similarly don't have a rating requirement at current.) We really don't know though, and further speculation is probably pointless until the next set of changes rolls around or this thing goes live.

From 40-60, you can probably afford to use any weapons 2.00 speed or higher, as they won't fall beneath the 1.50 mark when Flurried. I would try to put the faster weapon in your MH, unless you have two fast weapons, in which case put the slow one in your MH and just Flametongue the OH. It's not like you really have to min-max at these levels, and running most dungeons over again to get the "perfect" drop pre-70 is a waste of time you could spend leveling up. I also haven't found it necessary to "twink" when leveling, but meh...
#4201SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Diogo
I think he meant lvl 40+, and that would be because that is when you get DW. Which means that that's when the cooldown becomes an issue. With 2h or 1h and shield the cooldown does not really matter, as it is doubtfull you will get any weapons to go below 1.5 seconds just with flurry, and there is no off hand to "steal" procs.
I didn't mean 40+, Shabadu summoned up my thoughts quite well.
#4202SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
McMullet
"A common misconception is that 'you can't get a WF proc if you miss' (similar to the notion that you can't crit unless you hit first). This is a fallacy of logic, and illustrates a misunderstanding of the attack table. When DWing with WF on both weapons, the 36% proc rate will be over all actual hits made - no matter what your miss rate is (as long as you are hit capped for specials through talents) you will always have an observed WF proc rate of 36% over eligible hits. "

The more I think about this update to the OP the more I start to smell smoke and my brain overloads.

I have read and understand the hit tables.

Couple of questions.

1. How does a DW Shaman with WF/WF hit tables look?

2. I am confused because my understadning is that WF does not work like crit in that Crit is part of the intial roll. Simplified. A shaman will either - Regular Hit, Crit, Miss, Be dodged or be paried as part of the initial roll. Regular hits and Crits have a 36% chance to proc WF.

WF WILL ONLY GO OFF on a regular hit or a crit correct? Meaning that with no +hit and 5% dodge and parry the initial roll will have to between 44-100 in order for WF to even be considered as a possibility.

If this is the case More +hit is going to increase white dmg but also open up more chances for WF to go off. IE If I hit more reg and crit because I have less chance to miss then I will see more WF's over time.

Someone tell me my logic is flawed so that I can continue to NOT stack +hit.

Last edited by McMullet : 10/23/07 at 4:31 PM.
#4203SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by McMullet
"A common misconception is that 'you can't get a WF proc if you miss' (similar to the notion that you can't crit unless you hit first). This is a fallacy of logic, and illustrates a misunderstanding of the attack table. When DWing with WF on both weapons, the 36% proc rate will be over all actual hits made - no matter what your miss rate is (as long as you are hit capped for specials through talents) you will always have an observed WF proc rate of 36% over eligible hits. "

The more I think about this update to the OP the more I start to smell smoke and my brain overloads.

I have read and understand the hit tables.

Couple of questions.

1. How does a DW Shaman with WF/WF hit tables look?

2. I am confused because my understadning is that WF does not work like crit in that Crit is part of the intial roll. Simplified. A shaman will either - Regular Hit, Crit, Miss, Be dodged or be paried as part of the initial roll. Regular hits and Crits have a 36% chance to proc WF.

WF WILL ONLY GO OFF on a regular hit or a crit correct?

If this is the case More +hit is going to increase white dmg but also open up more chances for WF to go off. IE If I hit more reg and crit because I have less chance to miss then I will see more WF's over time.


Someone tell me my logic is flawed so that I can continue to NOT stack +hit.
Sift through that there and.. guess what? It's been 3 pages, time for this to be asked again.
#4204SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Noise
Off topic, but from a few pages back.

Season Three Weapons.


On the PTR right now when viewing the weapons you see a 2.6 speed "One Handed" Version of each season three axe and mace.

This version costs 2625 points but has no rating requirement.



Then there is the 2.6 speed "Offhand Only" season three weapons. These do have a rating requirement of 1850 but only cost 1300 points.

Is this confirmed a bug? Or can we buy the "One Handed" version of the season three without the rating requirement?
Afaik you only see ratings on vendor. If someone links the weapon/armor to you, you dont see the rating required.
#4205SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Az-
Originally Posted by Disquette
I don't know why people would want it now, but I put a link to a working version of the mod back in my sig.
I would say people would want it for the parts that will stay working. I still enjoy it very much.

I have even used it to see when I am healing and fat fingured a key to see the blue bar of oh crap frost shock just went off hope the tank is going to keep it off me. (pug)


My thanks for all that has been put into this post. It has opened my eyes a great deal and I am very happy with my shaman on the PTR. Once 2.3 goes live I hope to be able to go back to enhancement instead of restoration.
#4206SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Neithan
Afaik you only see ratings on vendor. If someone links the weapon/armor to you, you dont see the rating required.

Nope, that's wrong. They don't have a rating requirement when you go check the vendor either.
#4207SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Mullet: the issue is that your actual PPM doesn't drop very much when you have a full load of hit vs almost no +hit. The proc rate on Windfury is high enough that you can afford to miss ~15-18% of the time (as you do with a 9% hit from talents and a usual gear loadout) and, thanks to the 3 second cooldown, your PPM will not drop significantly from a value that is closer to 5%. Essentially, by the time you've capped your yellow attack hit rate, you've provided enough +hit that Windfury will never spend more than a couple of seconds on cooldown.
#4208SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Somewhat off-topic I suppose but this is something I can't figure out:

What consumes Stormstrike?

We just added an enhance shaman to our raid. On trash I just stood around watching the debuffs on the mob. He was not earth shocking, the resto shaman in the raid were not earth shocking, the boomkin was not wrathing. Recount confirmed all that.

Just about the only sources of Nature damage were Deadly Poison and Serpent Sting, and maybe insect swarm but I doubt that was in use. It wasn't that the debuff was getting pushed off, I could see the charges going 2, 1, gone.

I can't see asking rogues to not poison, and Insect swarm is good stuff...but watching Stormstrike be used up by tiny little numbers makes me sad. Am I missing something?
#4209SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Lightning Capacitor and Romulo's Poison Vile would be the two main culprits, I'd guess.
#4210SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Hamilburg
Lightning Capacitor and Romulo's Poison Vile would be the two main culprits, I'd guess.
I'm the only one in the raid with a Capacitor(I think). I think we may have a Vile or two in the raid but does that proc enough to be consuming Stormstrike like that?

Edit: I just checked. We have one Vial in the raid. I didn't think that thing proced enough to be eating both charges in 12 seconds...
#4211SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Rogue poisons are the most likely culprit, nothing you can do about it.

McMullet - Moogle pretty much summed it up.
#4212SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan
Rogue poisons are the most likely culprit, nothing you can do about it.

McMullet - Moogle pretty much summed it up.
So rumors of it not being consumed by periodic damage were false then...it works for Imp Shadowbolt, why not SS =\
#4213SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Torrential
So rumors of it not being consumed by periodic damage were false then...it works for Imp Shadowbolt, why not SS =\
It does. It's not a rumor, it's a fact. Wound/Instant/Anesthetic poison, Capacitor, Wind Serpents, Earth Shock, Poison Vial, Wrath and a few other random things do eat it.
#4214SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
None of those are periodic damage. (in the sense of a DoT, which is what I assume he means)
#4215SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
None of those are periodic damage. (in the sense of a DoT, which is what I assume he means)
Yeah, I know. I was stating that those are things that do remove it, Deadly/Serpent/Scorpid poison most definitely do not eat SS charges.
#4216SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
From what I can tell then, the 1 poison vial in the raid was the culprit. I'm the only capacitor in the raid. I checked recount after pulls and none of the resto shaman were pulling any funny business, the enhance shaman himself wasn't and there was no wrath. One rogue was dual deadly poisons, the other was WF/deadly.

Leaving me to believe that the vial somehow managed to eat Stormstrike's charges in 12 seconds...
#4217SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by rava
Yeah, I know. I was stating that those are things that do remove it, Deadly/Serpent/Scorpid poison most definitely do not eat SS charges.
I believe Scorpid poison consumes SS debuffs on the initial application. Just from incidental reports of old BM hunters mentioning their rolling poison stack would stay higher if SS was on the mob when it was initially applied.
#4218SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Are any rogues using envenom?...
#4219SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Deadly will also consume it on the initial application if the stack falls off, IIRC.
#4220SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Noise
Off topic, but from a few pages back.

Season Three Weapons.


On the PTR right now when viewing the weapons you see a 2.6 speed "One Handed" Version of each season three axe and mace.

This version costs 2625 points but has no rating requirement.



Then there is the 2.6 speed "Offhand Only" season three weapons. These do have a rating requirement of 1850 but only cost 1300 points.

Is this confirmed a bug? Or can we buy the "One Handed" version of the season three without the rating requirement?
Goddamnit, keep quiet. >:

Yeah, I was checking the S3 vendor, and the 2.6 Fist, Axe, and Mace had no requirement, whereas all the other weapons and shoulders did. I bought the axe but couldn't really think of anything to test with it.
#4221SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Rob
Deadly will also consume it on the initial application if the stack falls off, IIRC.
I tested this, again, and initial application + further applications + periodic damage it causes does not consume the debuff.
#4222SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Akkron
Just downloaded DisqoDice, and I must say, I like it. Very nice to actually be able to time my stormstrikes.
Tried Enhancer was well but it was too loaded with other features that I didn't desire.

Random question:
Since Yo's DPS Simulator doesn't have a feature to input the Bloodlust Brooch, would it be accurate to substitute for it by adding 278x20/120 AP to the base AP listed? Mathmatically it makes sense, but I don't know if it'd actually really apply that way.
#4223SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Disquette
I don't know why people would want it now, but I put a link to a working version of the mod back in my sig.
Well the 'nerf' hasn't occured yet, and knowing blizzard it could be next patch, or it could take monthes to fix, so meanwhile it's still very usefull.

Just a question, have you managed to get around and add watershield as you said you might? I like your mod for its lightweight and simplicity, i'd love to have it with ws included.

Thanks
#4224SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Shakkha
Well the 'nerf' hasn't occured yet, and knowing blizzard it could be next patch, or it could take monthes to fix, so meanwhile it's still very usefull.

Just a question, have you managed to get around and add watershield as you said you might? I like your mod for its lightweight and simplicity, i'd love to have it with ws included.

Thanks
You might like power auras for this kind of functionality, although it's a bit more robust than you might prefer.
#4225SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arakaine
With the changes to the Orc Axe racial and S3 looming ahead, would it be wise for me to drop Hammersmithing and pick up Axesmithing, along with the S3 offhand? I made the mistake of picking up Hammersmithing up to the T2 weapon and the S2 mace to compliment the looks of my MH. This was prior to me reading that the racial would give me 3% hit and .2% crit vs level 73 mobs if I chose an Axe weapon (I know, I'm a nub). Now I am wondering if it's still worth it to change weapons despite the change only granting 5% crit and zero +Hit. Thanks for any input.
#4226SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Leitwolf
As i understand it grants now 1% crit, not more, same for humans with swords and maces. So let´s say before it was a nice bonus beeing orc (i´m an orc player myself and loved it for many reasons ...), now the only good things beeing an orc are the big nice shoulders again and our bloodthirst ability. But wielding axes are not really a big advantage anymore and myself beeing in a raidgroup who´s just before illidari council will pick 2 Syphon of the Nathrezim and cry about the times when orc´s wielding those massive stylish axes where what you wanted (for style AND damage) .
#4227SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Arakaine
Ah, if it's just 1% Crit for all five points of Axe skill then the answer is obvious. Thanks.
#4228SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Akkron
Random question:
Since Yo's DPS Simulator doesn't have a feature to input the Bloodlust Brooch, would it be accurate to substitute for it by adding 278x20/120 AP to the base AP listed? Mathmatically it makes sense, but I don't know if it'd actually really apply that way.
Yes that's the way to do it. That's the same way that Yo applies things like Haste Pots and Drums of Battle - as a constant applied haste bonus.
#4229SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Sancho
Originally Posted by Xoya
For flurry reasons, in a perfect situation, same speed is always going to be better if you can get your weapons attacking at the same time because the game has to fudge the numbers a bit to compensate for lag. However, using two same speed weapons can seriously nerf your windfury damage if you're always attacking with your offhanding first, which you will be doing if you begin attacking outside of melee range of the mob. That's most likely why, in practice, slow/slower works out better for damage than same speed weapons.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This is a fallacy -- the same thing has an equal chance of happening with MH procs. Using the same speed weapons is simply more subject to streakiness due to this factor; different speeds will eventually force the cycle to be broken and can result in more consistent damage. In truth it matters little because Stormstrike always considers the MH to hit first and thus get first chance to proc. You'll rarely see the same hand proc more than a few times in a row, and it ends up being more of a coin toss chance as to which hand will go off next with the odds slightly skewed in the main hand's favor.
I'm having trouble figuring out exactly what Nite_Moogle means here. I assume he's referring to the quote that "same speed weapons can seriously nerf your dps", and not debating the actual mechanic of it. I am under the impression that:
1) Starting an attack before in melee range will give a random hand priority to get windfury, as opposed to MH priority always when starting swings while in range.
2) This can only be corrected by stopping the attack and starting again.
3) Leaving melee range while attacking will create the same problem again.

Has this been debunked? I apologize if I missed it. If it hasn't I had a question, is a simple macro such as the following sufficient to correct the problem and give MH priority again?

/stopattack
/startattack
It would make sense to me that you'd have to wait for the swing timers to reset before attacking again. Though technically I thought the weapons were already hitting at the same time anyway, just with a screwy proc mechanic, so maybe not. Since I'm currently dual-wielding 2.6, I'm pretty concerned about it.

I was also wondering if anyone knows of a good substitute for something like lootzor.com. At the moment, lootzor messes up gemming by adding a fake +8 agi blue slot gem, in addition to STILL not having haste rating. Pawn is nice, but requires researching alot of items manually. If nothing has been made I might consider writing a plugin for atlasloot or something that has similar functionality to lootzor.

Also FIRST POST!

Last edited by Sancho : 10/24/07 at 10:24 AM.
#4230SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Sancho try use thottbot. It's include haste + armor penetration.
#4231SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3McMullet
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Mullet: the issue is that your actual PPM doesn't drop very much when you have a full load of hit vs almost no +hit. The proc rate on Windfury is high enough that you can afford to miss ~15-18% of the time (as you do with a 9% hit from talents and a usual gear loadout) and, thanks to the 3 second cooldown, your PPM will not drop significantly from a value that is closer to 5%. Essentially, by the time you've capped your yellow attack hit rate, you've provided enough +hit that Windfury will never spend more than a couple of seconds on cooldown.
Perfect. That's what I want to hear.

Reading through the OP it doesn't really mention what an optimal hit rating is. I know the higher my AP and Crit the better.

From what I am reading here you are suggesting +130 may be a bit of an overkill if dropping to around 90-100 would allow me to stack that much more AP and Crit.

BTW, great guide. I have followed it to a T and it has pushed me to the top3 in a TK/SSC progressing guild.
#4232SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Sancho
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Sancho try use thottbot. It's include haste + armor penetration.
Nice, thanks.
#4233SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Sancho
1) Starting an attack before in melee range will give a random hand priority to get windfury, as opposed to MH priority always when starting swings while in range.
If I remember correctly from when I tested it whie farming, it will always give the offhand priority rather than choosing a random hand. It's easily reproduceable if you test it yourself.
#4234SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Xoya
If I remember correctly from when I tested it whie farming, it will always give the offhand priority rather than choosing a random hand. It's easily reproduceable if you test it yourself.
I personally feel the odds of which hand is proccing WF are pretty good anyway and are already slanted in favor of the main hand because of SS that this tidbit of information, while accurate, is not going to probably change your damage output all that much in a fight over a few seconds long. Though I would love to see some math that proves that once again enhancement mechanics make no sense and prove my instinct wrong.
#4235SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3sonlox
Hello first time poster here with a question.

i have a dps group with druid, 2 rogues and fury warrior and myself resto shaman atm.
they keep trying to tell me GoA is better then WF totem. i tell them different but they wont listen.

is there any data someone might have to prove my point. thanks
#4236SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Sancho
/stopattack
/startattack
This will always cause your main hand to swing as long as you are only hitting it every 3 seconds or so. When you initiate autoattack, your offhand weapon has a warmup time of half its normal delay before it is eligible to swing. Stormstrike doesn't have this limitation, both weapons will hit immediately unless the main hand attack doesn't connect, in which case the offhand isn't eligible to hit. What I was referring to in the post you quoted was that Xoya was overlooking that in a normal situation where your attacks aren't synchronized, WF procs are typically cyclical between main hand and offhand and using non-same-speed weapons forces this cycle to be broken.

Reading through the OP it doesn't really mention what an optimal hit rating is.
There isn't one, mostly because you can eliminate yellow attack misses through talents alone (9%) which Warriors and Rogues cannot do, which is why they often have a "minimum" hit rating. You don't need any more than what you'll find on the rest of your "best" items. Only at the very top end of itemization have people hypothesized via simulator that hit becomes more valuable than further stacking AP or crit.

Sonlox: Use WWS and add up their main hand white damage and multiply it by .2 -- that's your easily quantified contribution that WF would offer. There isn't a terribly easy way to do it, but it can be done, and you should definitely be using WF in that group.

Last edited by Nite_Moogle : 10/24/07 at 11:57 AM.
#4237SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Sonlox, if I get enough testers on Sunday, we will have a more conclusive data set. Until then, we can work with math/theory to show it, thought I honestly don't know exactly where that is.

As people will point out, however - 20% more main hand white damage > 2.5% crit + an extra poison for rogues. Warriors, however, can get turned upside down if they are playing in a way where they are constantly using slam (thus not proc'ing windfury).

Quick math on that 20% point. If, for a rogue, 50% (low estimate) of dps comes from white damage, and 60% of that 50% is from the main hand (low estimate again), thats:

100% * 50% * 60% = 30% of all damage comes from Main hand white damage.

Increase this by 20% = 6% dps boost from windfury.

I have no idea how a rogue would get a 6% dps boost from 2.5% crit and an extra poison, but maybe I'm missing something.
#4238SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by galzohar
Are any rogues using envenom?...
That son of a bitch...that right there is what is eating Stormstrike. Based on his AP and a guess at his raid buffed AP his envenom is hitting for something like 1280 if I'm getting the envenom formula right. That's not terrible but I'd much rather my 1600+ LBs were eating it =\
#4239SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Torrential: I'm not sure of that. One of my rogues uses envenom and he frequently boasts of 5000+ envenom crits.
#4240SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sancho
1) Starting an attack before in melee range will give a random hand priority to get windfury, as opposed to MH priority always when starting swings while in range.
2) This can only be corrected by stopping the attack and starting again.
3) Leaving melee range while attacking will create the same problem again.
Is there a simple addon for this that warns you whenever your offhand hits first? (considering you are using same speed weapons)
#4241SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yuma
Originally Posted by sonlox
Hello first time poster here with a question.

i have a dps group with druid, 2 rogues and fury warrior and myself resto shaman atm.
they keep trying to tell me GoA is better then WF totem. i tell them different but they wont listen.

is there any data someone might have to prove my point. thanks
Check the first page of the thread.
#4242SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Skiace
You might like power auras for this kind of functionality, although it's a bit more robust than you might prefer.
I use Parrot (an SCT replacement), which can be set up to warn you when a buff fades. Mine yells "Recast Shield!" when the last charge of Water Shield is consumed and "Recast Windfury!" in case I've forgotten to rebuff.
Originally Posted by sonlox
i have a dps group with druid, 2 rogues and fury warrior and myself resto shaman atm.
they keep trying to tell me GoA is better then WF totem. i tell them different but they wont listen.
No way is GoA better than WF for the fury warrior. If he's asking for GoA, just give up because your raidmates are idiots.

GoA is obviously better than WF for the druid. No surprise there that he wants it, but he's being selfish.

If your rogues aren't specced for PvE -- say, they are Envenom or something -- then they might want GoA so they can keep both poisons on. I know that prior to the most recent WF nerf, WF was still better than GoA+poisons for even Envenom rogues. But I'm not sure that this is obviously the case even after the most recent WF nerf.

If your rogues are specced for PvE, tell them to put Deadly on their OH and leave their MH poison free. WF is definitely better under such a situation. However, if your rogues are such mouth-breathers that they can't figure this out, at some point you have to give up and accept that it doesn't matter what totem you drop for them since they will suck either way.
#4243SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jaelyn
This may have been asked before but I do not have the time to read 170 pages lol!
I have the option of either dual wielding 2 Syphon of the Nathrezim or MH Syphon and OH Rising Tide. Reading the first page the AEP values are based off 2.6 speed weapons and I am just a little confused.
Thanks
#4244SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Jaelyn -- with a resto spec, you don't have the option of dual wielding anything.

That said, let's check the OP. Oh hey, Section VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons sounds good:
For non-orcs

...

If you have access to [Syphon of the Nathrezim], dual wield it.
Wasn't that easy?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 10/24/07 at 5:08 PM.
#4245SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Sonlox: Use WWS and add up their main hand white damage and multiply it by .2
Unless their offhand is spectacularly better than their mainhand, at least 2/3 of their white damage will be from the mainhand because the offhand does half as much damage. So, divide the white damage dps by .66 and then multiply that by .2 -- that's the benefit gained from Windfury.

Cross this with the benefit added from additional AP/crit across the entire group and the loss of the rogues' mainhand poisons and the warrior's sharpening/lodestones and WF usually still comes out on top, even though the druid (and shaman) gain no benefit from it at all.

It might close, though...I've been in a similar group, and wound up dropping GoA because myself and the druid were the best geared by a wide margin. And if the druid's main tanking, you drop GoA to give him a boost of threat.
#4246SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Jaelyn
This may have been asked before but I do not have the time to read 170 pages lol!
I have the option of either dual wielding 2 Syphon of the Nathrezim or MH Syphon and OH Rising Tide. Reading the first page the AEP values are based off 2.6 speed weapons and I am just a little confused.
Thanks
It's preference/availability. DS/Syphon, Syphon/Syphon, RT/Syphon, Syphon/RT, DS/RT, ect are all within 1-2% of each other as far as DPS sims are concerned. You could go months without getting a 2nd Syphon where you might have a chance at picking up RT, something that you shouldn't pass up. You really should read the first page, or use the search function. You don't want to read 170 pages and I don't want to summarize them for you.
#4247SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
If rogue have dual wield specialization then OH does 75% of mh damage. MH does then:
1 / 1.75 = 0.574...
#4248SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Unless their offhand is spectacularly better than their mainhand, at least 2/3 of their white damage will be from the mainhand because the offhand does half as much damage.
Both combat rogues and fury warriors have talents to reduce the off-hand damage penalty, so the MH won't be 2/3rds of white hits with equal dps weapons.

edit: Too slow for Pitbuller
#4249SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3djaehns
2 questions:

1. Is there some maths for orc changes in 2.3. Especially if its still the best choice to use RT in MH?

2. How does the proc of the syphon work. I think there is no maths on this(??), but just basically?? Is it just more dps or what? I'm not yet in hyjal/bt so i can't imagine how the proc works
#4250SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by djaehns
1. Is there some maths for orc changes in 2.3. Especially if its still the best choice to use RT in MH?
I have been hearing Tauren saying that they obtain the highest DPS from RT MH/Syphon OH or Syphon MH/RT OH, so an Orc with access to RT should always use it -- and I would expect it to always be MHed unless you have a Wicked Edge of the Planes that must remain in the MH.
#4251SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Hi, i checked and this hasnt been posted anywhere, With the new AP -> spellpower changes Wouldn't AP alot more viable then Crit, hit, haste etc in terms of AEP.

Example, flask of RA is 120 AEP, but in 2.3 it will also grant close to 37 spell damage by itself, excluding unleashed rage. Wouldn't this increase flask of RA's AEP value?

I know Shocks and fire totems are not ALOT of our damage, but they are still a fair bit.

Thanks in advance.
#4252SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Badboyrune
I created a little spreadsheet of most Hyjal/BT and a couple SSC/Tk items for easy calculation of AEP as you gain your personal AEP numbers from Yo's sim. I guess most people use some kind of addon to calculate this, but I find it pretty nice. Might help someone out

RapidShare: 1-Click Webhosting

Last edited by Badboyrune : 10/24/07 at 11:02 PM.
#4253SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Philondra
2/45/14 for patch 2.3?

Greetings, fellow enhance shaman.

I've been lurking on this thread for several months and have used it to greatly refine my playstyle over that period of time, particularly with regards to making intelligent gearing and talent choices in order to maximize my dps. I was testing out specs on the PTR in an attempt to figure out what would be an "optimal" spec in order to put out the maximum possible dps post-2.3, and what I came up with was the following 2/45/14 build:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (Assume that two handed weapons is really shamanistic focus and that we are dealing with the 2.3 version of MQ.)

I understand that the current cookie-cutter spec is 0/42/19, and I agree with the current theorycrafting that even post 2.3 with our improved shock damage, it is not worth losing Nature's Guidance in resto to go down to Elemental Devastation in the elemental tree.

In a raid situation, however, past 3/3 Nature's Guidance and perhaps 1 point in Totemic Mastery, there is absolutely nothing in resto that improves our DPS. Given that in a raid situation, I can count on one hand the number of times I've cast a heal while getting hit by some incidental damage, wouldn't it make sense to drop the excess points in healing focus to get 2/5 concussion? I am well aware that shocks tend to be around 7% of my current damage, but isn't improving 7% of my damage by 2% better than impoving 0% of my damage by 0% and providing virtually no extra raid utility?

The only time I could see value in healing focus is soloing elites (trees in skettis?) or in PVP; in a raid situation, healing focus is just wasted points.

Comments and observations welcome.
#4254SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Most of us actually take Improved Reincarnation I think. (I know I do, and some of the talent builds I've seen from regular posters here)

Being able to ankh 33% faster holds alot more value for me then a 0,14% DPS increase.
#4255SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3GamingManiac
Originally Posted by vorda
Most of us actually take Improved Reincarnation I think. (I know I do, and some of the talent builds I've seen from regular posters here)

Being able to ankh 33% faster holds alot more value for me then a 0,14% DPS increase.
I value being able to ankh at higher HP/mana as opposed to the 40m timer. They're both great, but being able to HP pot right as I ankh and I'm pretty much rolling along like normal. Without the talent, I can die to any type of aoe that likely killed me in the first place.
#4256SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Originally Posted by GamingManiac
I value being able to ankh at higher HP/mana as opposed to the 40m timer. They're both great, but being able to HP pot right as I ankh and I'm pretty much rolling along like normal. Without the talent, I can die to any type of aoe that likely killed me in the first place.
I'd say that with ankhing and combat rezzing you have to be very aware that no AoEs are present anyway (or have your health pot+stone ready, but you probably wouldnt have died if they were ready).

Though obviously you have a very valid point .
#4257SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes that's the way to do it. That's the same way that Yo applies things like Haste Pots and Drums of Battle - as a constant applied haste bonus.
It's not completely accurate as using cooldowns at the same time causes them to have an effect greater than the sum of their parts. Since it is simulation-based, I'm kind of surprised that Yo! hasn't added an option for some kind of consumable rotation (Drums+Haste Pot+Trinket, for example).
#4258SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He likely will at some point since he did so for the Shocks rotation. Right now adding it as a static value is the best we have available though.
#4259SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
Hi, i checked and this hasnt been posted anywhere, With the new AP -> spellpower changes Wouldn't AP alot more viable then Crit, hit, haste etc in terms of AEP.

Example, flask of RA is 120 AEP, but in 2.3 it will also grant close to 37 spell damage by itself, excluding unleashed rage. Wouldn't this increase flask of RA's AEP value?

I know Shocks and fire totems are not ALOT of our damage, but they are still a fair bit.

Thanks in advance.
This is something that's kind of a "duh" for everyone. Obviously, you are going to see a slight decrease in the AEP of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration since shocks will be a larger component of our damage and they will scale with AP.

But to be quite specific in responding to your statement, FoRA won't be any more AEP in 2.3 -- since we shamans use AEP to stand for Attack Power Equivalence Points, and FoRA grants 120 AP, it will always be equal to 120 AEP for any gear or talent combinations. The only malleable AEP values are that of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration, and since AP is now worth more, each of these is worth comparatively less, and will receive a lower AEP value.
#4260SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Tornhoof,

For some reason, every one of your new Equipment Optimizers doesn't work for me. When I DL the program and unzip/run it, it says "The handle is invalid." Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss the explanation for this in the other 171 pages? :P

Anyone who knows whats wrong, feel free to respond!
#4261SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Difforgazm
Originally Posted by Rob
This is something that's kind of a "duh" for everyone. Obviously, you are going to see a slight decrease in the AEP of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration since shocks will be a larger component of our damage and they will scale with AP.

But to be quite specific in responding to your statement, FoRA won't be any more AEP in 2.3 -- since we shamans use AEP to stand for Attack Power Equivalence Points, and FoRA grants 120 AP, it will always be equal to 120 AEP for any gear or talent combinations. The only malleable AEP values are that of hit/crit/haste/armor penetration, and since AP is now worth more, each of these is worth comparatively less, and will receive a lower AEP value.
Ah so the AEP of other stats decreases, instead of Str and AP increasing. ok.

Will the AEP values of the stats in the original post be readjusted? or is it not that big of a change to worry about?

Sry for the trouble.
#4262SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
For those who care, the season 3 onehanders now also have 1850 rating requirements.
#4263SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Luxxor
Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've recently gotten my hands on the Blessings Deck and am looking for more info on its performance in a raid setting as opposed to Hourglass of the Unraveller.

The deck itself will prob fetch 1500g+ and we have Gruul on farm for a chance at the best enhancement trinket in game so I'm debating using it.

I guess my main question would be if I could fairly easily have both the 120ap and 80 spell damage fully stacked for extended boss fights. I'm interested to see the synergy between this trinket and the new AP to Spell damage buff in addition.

I'm aware that:

# [Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 AEP
At a full stack, since this will take 10-15 sec to achieve, the AEP might be considered less valuable.

# [Bloodlust Brooch] 118.3 AEP = ( 72 + ( 278 * 20 / 120 ))
# [Hourglass of the Unraveller] 109 AEP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 0.9 / 60 ))
Assuming a 0.9 PPM

Edit: Armory shows pvp gear, I'm using Brooch/Unraveller currently.

Last edited by Luxxor : 10/25/07 at 11:46 AM.
#4264SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
This was answered wayyyy back in the thread, but due to resists rate against bosses it's near impossible to get the full spell damage stack on. If you resist or mistime one shock, you lose the buff. Fire totems, lightning sheild, frostbrand, and flametounge don't proc it, so it's just shocks and bolts.

I'd suggest just selling the deck.
#4265SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Seidule
Originally Posted by drats
This was answered wayyyy back in the thread, but due to resists rate against bosses it's near impossible to get the full spell damage stack on. If you resist or mistime one shock, you lose the buff. Fire totems, lightning sheild, frostbrand, and flametounge don't proc it, so it's just shocks and bolts.

I'd suggest just selling the deck.
Sigh...

There's not one, but two components to the card. The poster was asking about the melee AP component, and how the added AP may affect spell damage through our new talent.

Equip: Each time you deal melee or ranged damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.
#4266SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Tornhoof,

For some reason, every one of your new Equipment Optimizers doesn't work for me. When I DL the program and unzip/run it, it says "The handle is invalid." Am I doing something wrong? Did I miss the explanation for this in the other 171 pages? :P

Anyone who knows whats wrong, feel free to respond!
Did you extract the whole zip file to one directory?
"The handle is invalid" error msg is very strange.

One common error message is missing/wrong application configuration error messages, these happen if your ms c runtime dlls (msvcr*.dll) are too old (or not for VC 8.0 SP1).
You can atleast try that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
#4267SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Bai
2.3 PTR ATM

On the PTR currently, (I am logged in right now) my spelldmg/healing (from the new Mental Quickness) are not updating correctly on the character sheet. It's been like this for weeks now. Sometimes, logging off and back on changes the numbers but they are never accurate if totems/trinkets/buffs are applied/used.

Anyone else seeing this?

Last edited by Bai : 10/25/07 at 1:10 PM. Reason: typo
#4268SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Seidule
Sigh...

There's not one, but two components to the card. The poster was asking about the melee AP component, and how the added AP may affect spell damage through our new talent.
Sorry, I misunderstood what he was asking. I thought he was asking about the usefulness in raids as opposed to the hourglass. I guess my main point should have been that there aren't many fights where this card is useful, and in my experience it's not worth the cost. I tried using it in raids for a while (Gruul, Mag and early SSC) and decided that Broach/Hourglass was a better combo.

30% of our AP means the card gives 40 spell damage when it's fully stacked. So in the rare instance that you could get it stacked to full with both buffs, the card would give 120 ap and 120 sdmg. Due to the stacking mechanic, I still don't think this is ideal for raid encounters at SSC level or higher.
#4269SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Daler
Originally Posted by Seidule
Sigh...

There's not one, but two components to the card. The poster was asking about the melee AP component, and how the added AP may affect spell damage through our new talent.
Reread his post.

I guess my main question would be if I could fairly easily have both the 120ap and 80 spell damage fully stacked for extended boss fights. I'm interested to see the synergy between this trinket and the new AP to Spell damage buff in addition.
Drats answered his question. Resist rates and the lack of spell hit create a situation that will more often than not prevent the spell damage component from reaching a full stack or keeping it up, as one resisted shock will lose the spell damage stack entirely. As such, there will be little to no synergy, not to mention the lackluster spell coefficient really won't add all that much damage from this trinket.

(120*0.3 + 80)*0.43*0.86 = 42.9 damage added to each shock, roughly 7.15 DPS

And that's best case scenario, where you get lucky and don't have a shock resisted. It's really not a great enh shaman trinket, IMO. I agree with Drats. Sell the deck.
#4270SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Seidule
Stand corrected! Apologies for the snarky "sigh"!
#4271SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Actually you both were partially correct and wrong. He asked about both parts and combined he got the answer kinda. I would not upgrade to it from Bloodlust.
#4272SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by djaehns
2 questions:

1. Is there some maths for orc changes in 2.3. Especially if its still the best choice to use RT in MH?

2. How does the proc of the syphon work. I think there is no maths on this(??), but just basically?? Is it just more dps or what? I'm not yet in hyjal/bt so i can't imagine how the proc works
Searching this thread will give you the answer to 1. (heck you could just check back in 2 or 3 days and you'll see it asked again, plus you'll learn the secret to the exact amount of +hit an enhancement Orc absolutely needs in order to raid)

Question 2: Syphon of the Nathrezim - Items - World of Warcraft
Wowhead.com is not this forum, so I can understand how, when you searched this thread for your answers, but you didn't find that link.
However, you mention there is no maths, more dps, or what, i can't imagine. . . which means you did not search "syphon proc" in this forum at all.

Please feel free to search this thread, first and then not ask questions that are already answered.

In order to facilitate searching in the future:
Answer 1: ORC 2.3 patch using RT (rising tide) in your main hand is NOT your best choice to use in your mainhand. It depends on what other weapons you have available. If you only have a Wicked Edge of the Planes and RT, then WEP in MH, RT in OH. If you have RT + Syphon, then MH the RT, OH the Syphon. If you have RT + S3axe, then MH the RT, OH the S3.

Answer 2: Syphon can place a buff on you. This buff allows all of your melee attacks to steal life from your enemy. Stealing life is shadow based. Stealing life damages your enemy and heals you when it works. Debuffs on your target can increase the shadow damage done, it's normally 20damage, but i've seen 30 while raiding, which increases the healing received. Immunity to shadow damage (or random immunities to weapon based spell damage) stop this effect completely. So you won't leech any life from Void Reaver. I've noticed that sometimes Teron Gorefiend goes immune to the effect, but normally I do leech life from him. The proc activates more than once per minute for me, but not quite twice per minute. I get 10 to 12 hits while a proc is active. Therefore i get 10 to 24 *30ish damage per minute. Each syphon I wield provides approximately 5 to 12dps in shadow damage.
#4273SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Difforgazm
Will the AEP values of the stats in the original post be readjusted? or is it not that big of a change to worry about?

Sry for the trouble.
If there's a significant difference from how things are now, then yes, the AEP values will be adjusted to compensate.

In terms of DPS, 1 AP will grant 0.3 spell damage. Earth Shock has a 3/7 coefficient and Flame Shock has a 15% coefficient on the instant damage and 52% coefficient on the DoT. So the Mental Quickness buff will make 1 AP will give you an additional 0.12857 + 0.045 + 0.156 damage every 12 seconds using a perfect shock rotation. This does not account for spell resists, crits, or debuffs such as Misery -- we will assume that with the lack of spell hit and crit on our gear these factors work out to be a wash. This adds up to 0.32957 damage/12 sec = 0.0275 DPS.

Depending on gear level, this may be consequential or inconsequential in the valuation of other stats with respect to AP -- remember that AP's value scales with hit, crit, haste, and armor penetration. As a rough estimate, at my gear level, 4 AP ~= 1 DPS. So 1 AP = 0.25 DPS. Since we are getting an extra 0.0275 DPS from AP in 2.3, this is about a 10% buff to AP, and we'd thus expect the AEP values of other stats besides STR to decrease by 10%.
#4274SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
muSashiSF
Quick question:

Which is best combination for a enhancement shaman Orc player in 2.3?

These are the weapons avaible for me:
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Rising tide
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Rising tide

I have read that only diffrence between all of these weapon are 1-2% dps?
But I just wanna hear your thoughts and recommendations.

BTW im using Gloves of the Searing Grip to get my weapon skill up to 354 with maces.

Last edited by muSashiSF : 10/25/07 at 8:37 PM.
#4275SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by muSashiSF
Which is best combination for a enhancement shaman Orc player in 2.3?

These are the weapons avaible for me:
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Syphon of the Nathrezim
(MH)Wicked Edge of the Planes and (OH)Rising tide
(MH)Syphon of the Nathrezim and (OH)Rising tide

I have read that only diffrence between all of these weapon are 1-2% dps?
But I just wanna hear your thoughts and recommendations.
MH Rising Tide OH Syphon
#4276SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Rob
If there's a significant difference from how things are now, then yes, the AEP values will be adjusted to compensate.

In terms of DPS, 1 AP will grant 0.3 spell damage. Earth Shock has a 3/7 coefficient and Flame Shock has a 15% coefficient on the instant damage and 52% coefficient on the DoT. So the Mental Quickness buff will make 1 AP will give you an additional 0.12857 + 0.045 + 0.156 damage every 12 seconds using a perfect shock rotation. This does not account for spell resists, crits, or debuffs such as Misery -- we will assume that with the lack of spell hit and crit on our gear these factors work out to be a wash. This adds up to 0.32957 damage/12 sec = 0.0275 DPS.

Depending on gear level, this may be consequential or inconsequential in the valuation of other stats with respect to AP -- remember that AP's value scales with hit, crit, haste, and armor penetration. As a rough estimate, at my gear level, 4 AP ~= 1 DPS. So 1 AP = 0.25 DPS. Since we are getting an extra 0.0275 DPS from AP in 2.3, this is about a 10% buff to AP, and we'd thus expect the AEP values of other stats besides STR to decrease by 10%.
So from this math, we can pretty much say it will take about 36.4 ap to give 1 dps from a full shock rotation. This should give a full raid buffed shamy with 3k ap around an extra 82 dps,
a shamy with 2k ap an extra 55 dps, ect.

Not to shabby then.
#4277SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
MH Rising Tide OH Syphon

I still disagree with this. From all my tests iv done, there more dps from Syphon in the MH assuming SS only when WF can proc. I thought all the tests id seen on here also said this.
#4278SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rhagok
Definitely not all the test you have seen, because surely Stigmata would disagree with you. He is wielding RT / Syphon too btw.
#4279SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Bai
On the PTR currently, (I am logged in right now) my spelldmg/healing (from the new Mental Quickness) are not updating correctly on the character sheet. It's been like this for weeks now. Sometimes, logging off and back on changes the numbers but they are never accurate if totems/trinkets/buffs are applied/used.

Anyone else seeing this?
A few people noticed. After testing it seems it's just a character sheet display error.
#4280SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gulvan
A question I have right now though is if I should keep my dragonstrike or go with RT/Syphon. I know the haste proc is huge in figuring out dps numbers but am I at the point where the stats gained from rt will outweigh the proc buff?
#4281SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Gulvan
A question I have right now though is if I should keep my dragonstrike or go with RT/Syphon. I know the haste proc is huge in figuring out dps numbers but am I at the point where the stats gained from rt will outweigh the proc buff?
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

I have all of the "best" weapon combos and in game testing as well as sims have always had Dragonstrike above any other MH weapon for me. I don't understand your "at the point" statement because it's not like haste has a constant value, it gets more valuable as your other stats increase as well.

And a big WTF to ret paladins, clearly we are not bitching enough. S3 gear has been out for what, 2 weeks? Glad that stuff is getting changed for them.

Last edited by rava : 10/26/07 at 2:36 AM. Reason: wtf
#4282SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
drats
Originally Posted by rava
And a big WTF to ret paladins, clearly we are not bitching enough. S3 gear has been out for what, 2 weeks? Glad that stuff is getting changed for them.
I'm actually a little concerned about this. We need to get more shaman to speak up about gear, or else we'll be stuck with crap forever (t5 shoulders, mp5 on t6, t6 2p). Offset gear shouldn't be better than our tier gear, but it seems like this is the case with every new set that comes out. Let our voices be heard!!

The t6 2p really really needs to be changed in 2.3. Since they changed the old t1 bonus when our 30yd totem range talent came out, I don't think this would be too much of a stretch.

Last edited by drats : 10/26/07 at 3:42 AM. Reason: I need to read the dictionary more.
#4283SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Jinne
Basic DPS calc with standard raid debuffs (CoE/Malediction - 13%, Misery - 5%, Scorch - 15%)
EarthShock: 675/12 * 1.18 = 66.4 DPS
FlameShock: 797/12 * 1.36 = 90.3 DPS
I'm wondering if Flame shock is better than Earth shock without Coe and Scorch.
In the calculation I can't figure out what the 18/36 are from. Misery for earch shock, that's 5, where do the other 13 come from? Same thing for Flame shock, 13+5+15=33? Where do the extra 3 come from. Also, is Stormstrike included in that calculation?
On a different topic, I read the note about Searing totem in the original post, but it only mention the 2.3 version. Is it worth using currently?

Last edited by Jinne : 10/26/07 at 4:01 AM.
#4284SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by Jinne
Basically I'm wondering if Flame shock is still better than Earth shock without Coe and Scorch.
In the calculation I can't figure out what the 18/36 are from, misery for earch shock, that's 5, where do the other 13 come from? And same thing for Flame shock, 13+5+15=33? Where do the extra 3 come from. Also, is Stormstrike included in that calculation?
On a different topic, I read the note about Searing totem in the original post, but it only talks about the 2.3 version. Is it worth using currently?
13% is Malediction-ed CoE
5% is Misery
15% is Scorch

20% Stormstrike is included in ES

Searing Totem is worth using right now because we don't have a lot of places to spend mana anyway, if you don't twist totems.
#4285SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
Originally Posted by rava
Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo

I have all of the "best" weapon combos and in game testing as well as sims have always had Dragonstrike above any other MH weapon for me. I don't understand your "at the point" statement because it's not like haste has a constant value, it gets more valuable as your other stats increase as well.
I wouldn't put too much faith in Yo's modelling of Dragonstrike, it's pretty optimistic on proc uptime.
#4286SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3McMullet
Can someone tell me the exact base miss rates on mobs based on level?

I had a friend try and tell me that OH has a higher miss rate than MH?

Thanks in advance!
#4287SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Jinne
I'm wondering if Flame shock is better than Earth shock without Coe and Scorch.
You don't even have to think about it in terms of other buffs on the mob. If there is -anyone- else using your Stormstrike nature charges, you're better off waiting to earth shock till storm strike is off the mob, so you may as well cast flame shock instead.
#4288SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
If you use disqodice and would like some input on the display of the watershield component, I'm looking for help and would appreciate it if people would stop by here:

http://elitistjerks.com/f32/t17562-h...n_suggestions/
#4289SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3beetlejuice
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom.

Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear.
And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear.

I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate.

A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000
that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight.

For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered.

We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed.
In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable.

PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it.
#4290SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom.

Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear.
And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear.

I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate.

A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000
that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight.

For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered.

We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed.
In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable.

PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it.
...thanks?
#4291SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3david0925
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
Hello fellow shamans,
i would like to add my two words of wisdom.

Be careful with your new gear addition. Don't vendor your old one, unless it is an exact upgrade of stats. But if your new gear has different stats, like not agi and critical strike but agi and hit rating or haste rating, better keep them both as you cant tell when you will go lower in hit rating or critical or any, with the constant upgrade in your gear.
And no calculator or AEP can figure that out for you. Stats are good to weight but you should look your overall stats when deciding your current gear. Keep all different epics in your bank, it wont hurt. Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad, going below 28% (without feral druid in raid) or 25% (with feral druid in raid) is also bad. These numbers are empirical and are my base crit stats, accompanied with 2 mongooses. So keep your blue crit trinkets and your old hit rating epic gear in bank,. You will have situations you will really need to stir that big soup of epics to make a nice viable combo of gear.

I would also like to agree with some posts, 14 talent points in resto are essential for maximizing your dps. But to maximize dps in long raid battles, means that you need also cheaper mana costs for totems and for shocks. Thats why i really use 5 points in totems (or 3 and rest 2 in improved reincarnation ) and remaining talent points in elemental tree for even cheaper shocks. Also Totemic Mastery is a must as its your only weapon against fear outranging your tremor tick rate.

A good end raid enhancement spec is http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/shaman/talents.html?2000000000000000000005050021250213353115105005301000000000000
that cheap shocks that can make him use stormstrike and shocks max possible time in dps fight.

For 2.3 i can say some things i encountered.

We never go out of mana even if we nuke for 10minutes. The Shamanistic focus is overpowered as between 6seconds of shock cooldown you will crit at least 2-3 times. That means you have constant 60% cheaper shocks to use.The part of the talent of mental quickness that refers to 6% cheaper shocks is obsolete and should be removed.
In my opinion, i won;t post it at blizzard forums :P, there should be a stackable buff from your melee criticals, that reduces the mana cost of shocks from a low discount to a high discount. That would be nice and reasonable.

PS. For the Darkmoon card : Crusade i would like to add that it creates two stackable buffs on the Enhancement shaman. One is your AP and one is for your Spelldmg. Even with 6second Shocks i have had situations where i stacked up all the spelldmg bonus from this trinket (80spelldmg), u merely need 60seconds , or 10 shocks without 2 being resisted continuously. Thats why i would like you to reconsider the AEP of this trinket and add something more to it.
Exactly what you said here before hasn't been mentioned about 2 million times in the thread?

If you're summarizing things, please say so. You're acting as if you're talking about something none of us has ever thought about or experienced.
#4292SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Etelmo
Please have a look at the wow test realm forums, I have posted a bug to do with grounding totem that kinda needs to be fixed.
So far it only seems to effect Judgement of command from my testing, however since I have only tested using a ret paladin... This doesn't mean much.

The bug means that even if grounding totem is down, you will still take damage from JoC and the totem will be destroyed. I can see it having the same effect on other abilitys however.
It would be good if other people could do some more testing, and maybe report it to try and get it fixed.
#4293SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
Going below 125-140 in hit rating is bad

These numbers are empirical
No its not bad, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that those are not empirical figures at all.
Quit spreading that nonsense.
#4294SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
I'm at the point now where I can start using Epic gems in any new gear I get (MH/BT gear) I'm just wondering, how would I go about deciding on which ones to use? How do /you/ decide? do you just run the gems through the java sim and see which gives that tiny bit more DPS, or are there certain AP/CRIT values you are aiming for? Like 1600 AP 30% crit etc

thanks
#4295SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
It's very simple, use Yo's sim to get the values for the stats, you can apply them to the gems of course.
For socket bonus you can calculate if 2 x 10 STR is better or red + yellow + socket bonus, for example.
You'll need 2 blue gems for the RED metagem so you need to find the two armor pieces that gives you the most AEP with socket bonus. For example you have [Midnight Chestguard], [Bow-stitched Leggings] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Having the socket bonus of the chest and the legs and putting 2 x 10 STR in the belt is generally better than putting 3 x 10 STR in the chest and having the socket bonus of the leggings and the belt (but it depends on your values).
#4296SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Thanks that helps. And with that, I have some questions about the Java sim.. need to know if i'm using it correctly.

I want to assume Kings, because I have kings on every raid.. now on the buffs page, it has an option for kings, but in the text below the simulator it mentions something about you putting in your stats with kings in, so just to be sure will selecting the Kings buff do that for me when running the tests or do I have to work out my stats with kings then check the kings buff?

Another thing is the haste, what's the "5" haste that is there? should I change that to 0? I don't really know what it is.

Haste potion on the buffs page.. is that assuming you are popping a haste potion on every cooldown? don't really understand how it works.

I'm also a bit unsure about what this whole "works out your /own/ aep values based on /your/ gear, because what if my gear is wrong/incorrect in the first place? I really can't see how this works? maybe someone can explain it to me in lamens terms.

That's all thanks!
#4297SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
You want to input your stats(attack power, crit rating) with kings. I believe checking the kings option is just so it takes the buff into account when assigning an AEP value for strength and agility. For example strength has an AEP value of 2.0, unless you have kings, then each point of strength would have an AEP value of 2.2.

That haste number is the percentage of haste you have from gear.

AEP values are just numbers that tell us how valuable each stat is to us based on the gear we're currently using. The stats in WoW scale with eachother. For example as your crit percentage gets higher, the value of additional crit rating starts to decrease, and the value of additional attack power starts to increase. The stats work with eachother, which is why it's never really wise to focus on stacking one particular stat. You want some of everything. The simulator is going to give you AEP values based off of your particular stats.
#4298SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Right, that was a discussion we had with Yo quite some time back. Since you are only entering your AP, you need to let the sim know that you are getting part of that AP with Kings on. The best way to use the sim is to get buffed with MotW and Kings (since MotW affects your Strength/Agility and Kings will further increase that value) and then add in all the static buffs on the sim that have nothing to do with Kings.

If your gear is "wrong" then the sim and the AEP values it gives you will reflect that. Lets say that you stacked +Hit at the expense of all other stats, maybe you have like 300 +Hit but only 500 AP and 20% Crit. Your AEP values would place Strength and Crit/Agility very very high, but would weigh Hit rating extremely low. That would skew your gear selection toward items that spent no points on Hit Rating, but had high values of crit/str/AP.
#4299SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan
Right, that was a discussion we had with Yo quite some time back. Since you are only entering your AP, you need to let the sim know that you are getting part of that AP with Kings on. The best way to use the sim is to get buffed with MotW and Kings (since MotW affects your Strength/Agility and Kings will further increase that value) and then add in all the static buffs on the sim that have nothing to do with Kings.

If your gear is "wrong" then the sim and the AEP values it gives you will reflect that. Lets say that you stacked +Hit at the expense of all other stats, maybe you have like 300 +Hit but only 500 AP and 20% Crit. Your AEP values would place Strength and Crit/Agility very very high, but would weigh Hit rating extremely low. That would skew your gear selection toward items that spent no points on Hit Rating, but had high values of crit/str/AP.
That explains it, thanks I really couldn't work out how it worked, so it's really the best idea to get your own weights from the sim and use them in Enhancer rather than using the default ones in the first post?

Thanks for the replies.
#4300SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Meh... I dunno about 'best'. The default values work well enough as a baseline I think. For the most part nobody has really shown us an AEP value that gave radically different priorities of gear than anyone else - unless that guy had been exclusively stacking one stat. A few items shift around in priority, thats all I really see when I've plugged in different sets.
#4301SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Gartixxar
heya, I an new to theory crafting and in the last 4 days or so I have read all 172 pages of posts or so of this thread, I have found the information and discussion here to all be very helpful. Thank you very much for this thread.

My guild is currently just starting ssc and has downed lurker and VR, and I have pretty much entry level SSC/TK gear with the exception of the pendant.

I did my first simulation using Yo's sim and this is what I came up with

Shot at 2007-10-27
I was using major agility pots,BoM, BoK, MoTW, LoTP, TSA, GoA, SoE and roasted clefthoof for this (what I normally have up) And I believe I input the right numbers.

I did 2 more sims after and here is what I got (assuming strength=2.2 and ap=1)

AEP values of 3 sims
#1
crit rating = 1.6
hit rating=1.59
haste rating=1.75
Armor penetration=0.28
agility= 1.55

#2
crit rating = 1.65
hit rating=1.63
haste rating=1.71
Armor penetration=0.27
agility= 1.6

#3
crit rating = 1.69
hit rating=1.68
haste rating=1.77
Armor penetration=0.28
agility= 1.64

there all slightly different.....does it matter which of these value sets I use??? or should I use the second one since it is in between 1 and 3?

those AEP values seem right to me and I am thinking I am just about avg for SSC entry gear

do you think slightly lowering these stats or tweaking them a little and putting them through Yo's would provide a good AEP base value for entering SSC/TK??

this is my armory if it helps
The World of Warcraft Armory

this was done with BoK included...its 1690 because I factored in bloodlust brooch by doing (278*20/120) which came out to roughly 46 So i added it to 1644 (since theres no choice for bloodlust brooch)

Last edited by Gartixxar : 10/28/07 at 1:33 AM.
#4302SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
My take on it is that since if you actually manage to run across gear that is so close together in those values anyway, they are pretty much equivalent under any of the results you got and its not really worth delving into it much more than that. AEP values should not be the only thing that determines if you pick up an item anyway, Yo!'s simulator can only give you information as powerful as the models behind it.

In any case, if you are using enhancer to automatically calculate these values for you, enhancer doesn't take into account the hundredths digit as far as i can tell anyway, so each of those should result in the same enhancer string anyway.

Don't take AEP as cannon, and values these similar are essentially the same anyway.
#4303SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Zadus
ive read alot of pages so far and what concerned me was the few replies about +hit. Ive noticed other high end shamans like myself dont try to cap hit. So with my hit being between 130-150 am i ok? right now im at 130 something it says in my armory.

Do you think im hurting myself from trying to keep my ap and crit high or am i in the sweet spot?

Last edited by Zadus : 10/28/07 at 2:47 PM. Reason: typo
#4304SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
The nearest attempt to cap hit I have seen by the shamans that frequent this thread is with Stigmata, I believe. If not him, someone.. I believe at some point that person detailed that their "ideal" end-game stats would include 200 hit rating. However, the first post details that +hit from gear is an added bonus and is never something we should be actively shooting for on our gear. Basically, go for str/crit/ap/agi, and any extra hit you get on your gear is just gravy.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/28/07 at 1:59 PM. Reason: sounding less hostile
#4305SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Zadus
ive read alot of pages so far and what concerned me was the few replies about +hit. Ive noticed other high end shamans like myself do try to cap hit.
No they don't. If they do they are dumb.
#4306SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
sorry i had a typo i meant most DONT try to reach the hitcap like myself
#4307SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Compared to some other Shamans, I run pretty hitheavy, I guess. 134 rating, only person higher then me that I know of on these forums is Stigmata with 200 or so?
It's the tier 6... I could go for offset items, which I'll eventually pick up, but I'm going to complete Skyshatter too.
The difference in between these two is very small anyway. Eventually I'm aiming for Cursed Vision of Sargeras in the headslot, Midnight Chestguard in chest and Insidious Bands in bracers. Maybe Shadowmaster's Boots too, but we've never seen those drops >.>.

Oh and I just noticed, they changed our s3 healing set, but they didn't touch our Tier 6... Sigh, we need more people moaning about the damn mp5 on it!

Last edited by Illundai : 10/28/07 at 3:14 PM.
#4308SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Aren't Deadly Cuffs > Insidious Bands?
#4309SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
No, Insidious Bands are like 2 AEP better. =P
#4310SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Depends on your AEP I guess, Insidious Bands come out a little better for me - but the difference is really small.
#4311SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Illundai
Oh and I just noticed, they changed our s3 healing set, but they didn't touch our Tier 6... Sigh, we need more people moaning about the damn mp5 on it!
I don't know about the Euro folks but there are quite a few threads on the US shaman boards, but everyone tries to make their own and not reply to the other threads resulting in 5 or so 5+ page threads with different people replying to them.

A lot of people take the "I'll never see that gear so I don't care" route, which I can understand, so the t6 specific threads are faltering a bit.
#4312SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by rava
I don't know about the Euro folks but there are quite a few threads on the US shaman boards, but everyone tries to make their own and not reply to the other threads resulting in 5 or so 5+ page threads with different people replying to them.

A lot of people take the "I'll never see that gear so I don't care" route, which I can understand, so the t6 specific threads are faltering a bit.
well they didn't muck up the lower tier sets as well, i think t4 gloves (pants?) have some mp5 and I know the t5 shoulders have mp5 but really its not that big an issue until you get to t6.
#4313SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patrik
Regarding that "hit issue", I've been a little confused for the last few days. I've always been supporter of "hit less important for shamans" theory based on this and previous thread, supported by my own numbers from Yo's simulator. But last week I got two upgrades, resulting with me loosing 20-30ap, gaining 47 hit raiting, which led to overall boost up to 200dps on this week's Teron. I wasn't expecting nearly as much. Right now I am having unusual 190 hit rating but feeling comfortable with it.
#4314SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
47 hit rating and a loss of 24 AP led to a 200 DPS gain? I don't know about that.
#4315SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
That strikes me as awkward too, however I've had Teron kills where I do 1100 dps for whatever reason and then other Teron kills where I do 1400. Don't forget our DPS is still highly dependant on luck, I guess.
#4316SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Patrik
Regarding that "hit issue", I've been a little confused for the last few days. I've always been supporter of "hit less important for shamans" theory based on this and previous thread, supported by my own numbers from Yo's simulator. But last week I got two upgrades, resulting with me loosing 20-30ap, gaining 47 hit raiting, which led to overall boost up to 200dps on this week's Teron. I wasn't expecting nearly as much. Right now I am having unusual 190 hit rating but feeling comfortable with it.
There are pretty much a million factors in this.

A: The pieces you upgraded(previous slot and current), I find it hard to believe that hit is the only thing that you are gaining in these upgrades(haste/armor penetration/crit)

B: Yeah, you are going to do more dps with 47 hit rating than you are with 30 ap. 200 sounds a bit over the top, though.

C: Raid and group makeup. Without any WWS to substantiate this I can't really comment, but it's entirely possible that you had less paladins, more paladins, a ret paladin, an arms warrior, a feral druid, a bm hunter, a marks hunter, drums, or something else.

D: Teron can go pretty much any way, you could be lamed and have your other group contributers get ghosted early on and other times have your entire group untouched through the fight.
#4317SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
well they didn't muck up the lower tier sets as well, i think t4 gloves (pants?) have some mp5 and I know the t5 shoulders have mp5 but really its not that big an issue until you get to t6.
T4 gloves/chest/legs have mp5 (legs are the worst with even more mp5 than the Elemental legs). T5 shoulders have mp5, which make it worse than T4 for me (which means I keep the T4 helm as well, for the two piece bonus).
#4318SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by panny
T4 gloves/chest/legs have mp5 (legs are the worst with even more mp5 than the Elemental legs). T5 shoulders have mp5, which make it worse than T4 for me (which means I keep the T4 helm as well, for the two piece bonus).
Guess thats why i picked up so little t4, cant remember the last time i looked at the enhancement set to be honest. Maybe if the threads started commenting more on the t4 as well it would get a better responce, if i respond to another one, ill try to throw that in.
#4319SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Just did a little test on PTR for those who are curious about how Improved Lightning Shield (+15%) and Season 2 gloves (+8%) stack.

The talent only multiples by the base value, whereas the glove bonus multiplies by the final value. (Also, the spell damage coefficient on wowwiki is wrong, it's 30% per charge rather than 33%). Stormstrike is calculated multiplicatively with the glove bonus, not additively, which makes sense as it's an extra debuff, not buff.

So, to work out the damage from a single Lightning Shield charge:
LS = [ (287*Imp. Lightning Shield Bonus)+(AP*0.3)*0.3) ] * S2 Arena Glove Bonus * Stormstrike Bonus

My dreams of ludicrously hard hitting Lightning Shields... shattered.
#4320SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Did you extract the whole zip file to one directory?
"The handle is invalid" error msg is very strange.

One common error message is missing/wrong application configuration error messages, these happen if your ms c runtime dlls (msvcr*.dll) are too old (or not for VC 8.0 SP1).
You can atleast try that:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
That DL did the trick. Thanks a TON Tornhoof!
#4321SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Currently I am mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding syphon. I sit at 1594 ap 29 crit and 134 hit.

Now if i dropped my rising tide and put on another syphon i would go up right at 1600 ap and lose 21 hit dropping my hit rating to 113. Also im losing 33 stam.

Im a tauren so the axe skill isnt a factor here.

So should i spend my dkp on another one? Would this increase my dps? Im not much of a number cruncher so I am asking kindly for help. Thank you.
#4322SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by Zadus
Currently I am mainhanding Rising Tide and offhanding syphon. I sit at 1594 ap 29 crit and 134 hit.

Now if i dropped my rising tide and put on another syphon i would go up right at 1600 ap and lose 21 hit dropping my hit rating to 113. Also im losing 33 stam.

Im a tauren so the axe skill isnt a factor here.

So should i spend my dkp on another one? Would this increase my dps? Im not much of a number cruncher so I am asking kindly for help. Thank you.
I suggest you read the first page and use the search function. This question has been asked and replied to at least 73 times.
#4323SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Sorry, I am not big on number crunching so its hard for me to really understand it all. That is why i was posting to see if I could just get a helpful reply.
#4324SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Emaze
Still a little confused on Totem slot in 2.3. Can anyone clarify?
#4325SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Zadus
Sorry, I am not big on number crunching so its hard for me to really understand it all. That is why i was posting to see if I could just get a helpful reply.
The search function still applies to those who can only read the final result.

Originally Posted by Emaze
Still a little confused on Totem slot in 2.3. Can anyone clarify?
Basically the response was, get the new totem unless you totem twist and never shock (and even then if you shocked a bit while twisting, the new totem came out better). But, because they are planning on eventually fixing twisting, I think that would put the new totem positively in the lead.

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 10/29/07 at 4:15 AM. Reason: more responses = win
#4326SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3djaehns
Originally Posted by rava
I don't know about the Euro folks but there are quite a few threads on the US shaman boards, but everyone tries to make their own and not reply to the other threads resulting in 5 or so 5+ page threads with different people replying to them.

A lot of people take the "I'll never see that gear so I don't care" route, which I can understand, so the t6 specific threads are faltering a bit.
i've just started a new thread on the German shaman board. I hope I'll get some support there and not only dumb ass comments and spam. Perhaps we can change s.th.
#4327SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Kenom I'm curious how well your dps is with that hit rating? I usually raid wiht a hit rating of 134. I havent tried raiding with 105 yet which is what im currently at with double syphon's.

So how is your dps with that hit rating kenom?
#4328SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kyuki
/stopattack
/startattack
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This will always cause your main hand to swing as long as you are only hitting it every 3 seconds or so. When you initiate autoattack, your offhand weapon has a warmup time of half its normal delay before it is eligible to swing. Stormstrike doesn't have this limitation, both weapons will hit immediately unless the main hand attack doesn't connect, in which case the offhand isn't eligible to hit. What I was referring to in the post you quoted was that Xoya was overlooking that in a normal situation where your attacks aren't synchronized, WF procs are typically cyclical between main hand and offhand and using non-same-speed weapons forces this cycle to be broken.

How would you exactly use this macro if you have 2.6ers in actual combat? And what does it do in effect exactly? Are you supposed to spam it every 3+ seconds to make sure that you're MH is getting prio or?

I'm sorry if I'm stupid or something, but I simply dont grasp the whole concenpt and it's importance.
I would like to think that it would simply increase DPS if used in a certain way (which is why I'm asking).
#4329SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Kyuki
/stopattack
/startattack
How would you exactly use this macro if you have 2.6ers in actual combat? And what does it do in effect exactly? Are you supposed to spam it every 3+ seconds to make sure that you're MH is getting prio or?

I'm sorry if I'm stupid or something, but I simply dont grasp the whole concenpt and it's importance.
I would like to think that it would simply increase DPS if used in a certain way (which is why I'm asking).
You really only need to use it once after you've entered melee range. You're trying to avoid your first hit being with your offhand, since that gives slight preference to OH WF. If you start attacking and you're already in melee range, both weapons will attack at the same time.

If you auto attack and run in, your first hit will be with your offhand. If that hit procs WF, then your MH attack (which is delayed) will be ineligible for WF for another 3s.

If you run into melee range and then start attacking, your MH and OH hit at the same time, but your MH is actually hitting first. More importantly, your weapons will continue to hit at the same time, but with the MH getting priority. That means if WF procs, your MH will still be able to proc WF again once the 3s cooldown is finished.
#4330SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
In other words, don't hit the attack key until you are in melee range and then you don't need the macro.
#4331SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kyuki
all right, cheers for clarifying.

Another question though; what would apply if you started to attack a mob when you are in melee range, and it runs off for a while (i.e ranged DPS overaggro)? Would it be needed to use the macro at that point, or does the "initial" hit still be the one in charge so to say?
#4332SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I always turn off/on my autoattack just in case for that scenario.
#4333SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
My understanding is that if you are out of range for less than one swing rotation then it won't matter, since your weapons will be on cooldown from your last hit. If you're out for any longer than that, you'll want to stop/start again. I just keep attack bound to a key, and toggle it when I get back into range.

As a side note, I suppose anything that resets the swing timer will do this automatically.

Malan, I looked through the OP but didn't see anything in the WF mechanics or Swing timer sections. You might want to add something since people ask about this all the time.
#4334SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Whodi
has research been done showing the greatest benefit of DST for different types of melee and ranged?

I have some guildies saying that DST is better for BM Hunters.

How much benefit do we get from it then say a Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid?
#4335SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Illundai
Compared to some other Shamans, I run pretty hitheavy, I guess. 134 rating, only person higher then me that I know of on these forums is Stigmata with 200 or so?
It's the tier 6... I could go for offset items, which I'll eventually pick up, but I'm going to complete Skyshatter too.
I currently raid with 146 hitrating (Illidan on farm gear level, 1600ap, 31% crit) but I would gladly take some more, if possible without hurting other stats.

I used to have maxxed hitrating (256) while we had just finished ssc/TK and been gradually going down from there. To be honest, I dont like my current hitrating, if any good gear choises would drop, I would gladly take on a bit more +hit. I mean, as others have stated here, as our yellow attacks cap rather fast, you should not favor hitrating just because of it, but if you can get decent piece of gear that statweights posted in 1# gives decent point to wear, do it.

T6 is bad. I only have taken gloves and chest, dont think i will ever use more. Its not only cause of mp5 but it also favors critical strike rating while i like to have agility (scales with kings, gives dodge). Last, but not least, T6 ench chest looks like a dress! Pff!
#4336SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Whodi
has research been done showing the greatest benefit of DST for different types of melee and ranged?

I have some guildies saying that DST is better for BM Hunters.

How much benefit do we get from it then say a Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid?
This is an argument you don't want to get into. First, saying that something is *best* for any class or spec is damn near impossible to prove, and it comes down to emotional responses from people that removes the objectivity of the discussion. In the end all they'll attempt to do is prove that its the best for their class because they want the trinket. (I'd wager that your guildies saying its best for BM hunters are in fact, hunters) Second, there's been maybe two threads discussing who the DST is "best" for, you can search by Topic in this sub forum to find them. They all diverge into stupid bickering.

Summary: Lets not argue who its best for, its dumb. Everyone wants and needs it.

Originally Posted by Celetroll
Its not only cause of mp5 but it also favors critical strike rating while i like to have agility (scales with kings, gives dodge).
You realize that even with Kings, Agility gives less Crit than Crit Rating does? Its not an accident that Agility is weighed less on our AEP system than Crit Rating is. Strength > AP, and Crit Rating > Agility.
[e] 22.07 Crit Rating = 1% Crit. 25 Agility = 1% Crit.
As an example, 200 Agility with Kings would give you 8.8% Crit. 200 Crit Rating would give you 9.06% Crit.

Last edited by Malan : 10/29/07 at 2:23 PM.
#4337SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Originally Posted by Celetroll
I currently raid with 146 hitrating (Illidan on farm gear level, 1600ap, 31% crit) but I would gladly take some more, if possible without hurting other stats.

I used to have maxxed hitrating (256) while we had just finished ssc/TK and been gradually going down from there. To be honest, I dont like my current hitrating, if any good gear choises would drop, I would gladly take on a bit more +hit. I mean, as others have stated here, as our yellow attacks cap rather fast, you should not favor hitrating just because of it, but if you can get decent piece of gear that statweights posted in 1# gives decent point to wear, do it.

T6 is bad. I only have taken gloves and chest, dont think i will ever use more. Its not only cause of mp5 but it also favors critical strike rating while i like to have agility (scales with kings, gives dodge). Last, but not least, T6 ench chest looks like a dress! Pff!
I'm so confused on what to think about hit rating. I could go up to 155 or drop down to 105 and dual wield syphon's with some haste gear on. I've seen people like yourself say you would like more hit. But i have also seen people like Sebudai and he prefers low hit rating.

Very confused.
#4338SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Look, its not that Sebudai prefers low hit rating. If he could keep high AP and Crit stats while grabbing another 100 hit rating, he'd do it without a thought. Its not like anyone says "Gee I like having white attacks miss!" and gearing up around that philosophy.

The process is this:
1. Maximize your AP.
2. Maximize your Crit Rating.
3. If gear that satisfies 1 and 2 but loses some Hit Rating, oh well.
4. If gear satisfies 1 and 2, but also increases your hit rating, excellent, its like getting a piece of cake in your lunch box.
#4339SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
You are right i worded that wrong. I did not mean to say he prefers it.

Ok so to clear my confusion why is it such a low priority? How does missing white attacks get made up by having more ap and crit?
#4340SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its not that its made up by it, its that Hit Rating statistically improves less of your DPS than AP and Crit do.
If you take all Hit talents than your SS and WF attacks, 45-50% of your damage are now hit capped. No amount of +Hit will ever improve SS and WF damage beyond the 9% you get from talents.

Every bit of hit rating on your gear goes only toward improving white dps. Autoattacks make up 40-50% of our damage, but when you figure out that its only affecting less than half your damage, hit rating on gear becomes relatively expensive to AP and Crit which affect all your melee damage. Understand now?
#4341SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zadus
Got it thanks.
#4342SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Can we update the initial post to put in bold 'do not ask stupid questions about hit rating'?

Seriously this thread is crippled with dozens of post asking the same shit on hit rating. I am amazed at the number of people raiding tier 6 content with no clue on how game mechanics work.

I feel for Malan and others who constantly have to answer the same questions.

Stop asking these questions, just read the damn thread.
#4343SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Its already there in the "Frequently Asked Silly Questions" section under "How much hit rating do I need".
Also in the Itemization Hit Rating section it discusses exactly what I just said above.
#4344SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Whodi
has research been done showing the greatest benefit of DST for different types of melee and ranged?

I have some guildies saying that DST is better for BM Hunters.

How much benefit do we get from it then say a Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Druid?

We get just as much benefit as any of the other classes. DST is a seperate tier of trinkets and every physical dps should have one. Unfortunately, it doesn't always drop as well as it does for my guild.. I think we have had 8 or so? All but one physical dps has one.

Summary: It's just as good for you as for the others, don't get into a discussion who benefits more from it because that's just dumb. Pick one up if you can, you won't regret it.
#4345SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Emaze
Has anyone calculated the MH value of Dragonstrike? not a regular AEP value, I can see its 98. I calculated the new season 3 weapons to be 1028.973 and 479.45.

*found armor pen value

Last edited by Emaze : 10/29/07 at 2:27 PM.
#4346SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Well the weapon AEP values for DPS were only valid for 2.6 speed, so someone would need to replicate all the tests that Rob ran for 2.7 weapons to figure that out.
#4347SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
I believe a lurker was running some tests with 2.7 and 2.8 speed weapons for his Excel spreadsheet. I don't know if he will be getting around to posting that; I know he still had some work to do. But if someone's really interested, it's not too hard if you refer back to my original post for the methodology -- I just am not interested in repeating those tests now that we have a good idea of what kind of numbers to expect.

Beyond that, running tests still isn't going to provide a concrete answer like "RT/Syphon is better than Dragonstrike/Syphon is better than Syphon/Syphon is better than Syphon/RT" or anything like that -- we know that these combos are within a percent or two of each other. At that point, you first have to deal with the fact that gear differences are going to result in slightly different AEP values for the stats on these weapons. Then, the fact that shaman DPS is so prone to streaks of good or bad luck prevents us from actually confirming any theory that we come up with. Multiple sims or test runs of identical gear can come out 2-3% different, so we are unlikely to be able to say that gear which is only 1-2% theoretically different is truly superior. (Possible exception of RT being a dominant choice for Orcs due to the 1% racial.)

Last edited by Rob : 10/29/07 at 5:15 PM.
#4348SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
People have very strange theories concerning stats and gear for our class. I don't focus on any stat in particular. I determine the value of each stat for myself, using a simulator like Yo's, and then I equip the items that result in the highest total. I don't focus on attack power, or hit rating, or haste, or whatever. I just equip the best items.

It is not as though we have a vast array of items to choose from, each focusing on a specific stat. I'm not choosing between a +hit breastplate, a +crit breastplate, a +attack power breastplate or a +haste rating breastplate. We get like 2-3 options for each slot, and they all have some of most or all of those stats.

[Midnight Chestguard] isn't my breastplate of choice because it has more of my "chosen" stat than [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] or [Skyshatter Tunic]. It's my breastplate of choice because it's just designed better. It has 3 sockets, it makes good use of the item budget by having a bit of each stat instead of stacking one, and it doesn't waste its budget on stats like Mp5. I'm not going to loot it because it's a +hit upgrade, I'm going to loot it because it's just plain better than the other options.

You guys need to stop focusing on individual stats. Use Yo's simulator, determine your own AEP values, and loot upgrades. It's really simple. All of the stats are so close in value for me now that ilvl is the largest factor in determining what is an upgrade. Not which item has more +hit rating or whatever.
#4349SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Here, here.

The answer to the question "How much X should I stack" is simple: Don't stack anything. Weigh each piece against each other according to some scale, be it the static AEP, customized AEP from Yo's simulator, or some personal system that includes stam/int/feral skill/whatever nonsense you think is important.

But don't just STACK stuff. There's no wall you're trying to break through as a shaman, no "zone" you're trying to enter. We aren't mages looking to hit cap or warriors trying to become uncrittable...gear like that as a shaman and you're bound to gimp yourself somewhere.

BTW: my guild now has three active raiding enhancement shaman. Exciting to be sure, but too many for one raid. I've volunteered to swap to an elemental spec on raid nights. Anybody got a link to an ELEMENTAL theorycraft thread?
#4350SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
@ Weapon Expertise

On the test realm, I've been doing a little project. A side result is this:

Disquette - WWS

I currently have the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] equipped, giving 35 expertise rating = 2.25% reduction in dodge/parry.

My melee dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 4% total.
My windfury dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 4.5% total.
My stormstrike dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 2.4% total.

Looks like expertise, as far as this small test has shown, is affecting yellow damage too. I'll have to look into it further. Also, I'm going to be doing more grinding soon to get a bigger data set.

If this is correct, I'm probably going to use a back-of-the-envelope expertise = 2x hit rating for my valuations.

By the way, I'm using the Twilight Serpents in Nagrand for my testing. So, all 180 kills or so are on level 69 or 70 mobs. The test is admittedly *slightly* affected by the fact that I have 349 instead of 350 dagger rating, but I'm hoping that doesn't make it too tainted to use.
#4351SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
djaehns
Originally Posted by Disquette
@ Weapon Expertise

On the test realm, I've been doing a little project. A side result is this:

Disquette - WWS

I currently have the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] equipped, giving 35 expertise rating = 2.25% reduction in dodge/parry.

My melee dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 4% total.
My windfury dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 4.5% total.
My stormstrike dodge/parry rate (always facing the mob - I'm solo grinding) = 2.4% total.

Looks like expertise, as far as this small test has shown, is affecting yellow damage too. I'll have to look into it further. Also, I'm going to be doing more grinding soon to get a bigger data set.

If this is correct, I'm probably going to use a back-of-the-envelope expertise = 2x hit rating for my valuations.

By the way, I'm using the Twilight Serpents in Nagrand for my testing. So, all 180 kills or so are on level 69 or 70 mobs. The test is admittedly *slightly* affected by the fact that I have 349 instead of 350 dagger rating, but I'm hoping that doesn't make it too tainted to use.
So if we do this test with an ER of 0, we should have

melee dodge/parry rate = ~6.25%
wf dodge/parry rate = ~ 6.75%
SS dodge /parry rate =~4.65%

Is this the right way of calculating this?

Do we know how high the dodge chance for raid encounters is?

Last edited by djaehns : 10/29/07 at 7:51 PM. Reason: Correct math
#4352SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Those 6.x% are combined dodge/parry, individually they should be 5% against a lvl 70 mob. Which fits if we take the 10% combined and substract 90*0.04 for weapon skill difference.
Against a level 73 mob dodge and parry is most likely more than 5.6% each, 5% + 15*0.04 for weapon skill difference.

I can not explain the reduced Stormstrike parry/dodge though.

For the white/yellow values Disquette's test values are well in the range I expected them to be with weapon expertise.
#4353SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Hey hey hey!

despite the test realm's queueing system dicking over classes with cast time abilities (ret pally, warriors), I got some decent numbers for a COMBAT DAGGER rogue for WF / GoA / No Totem.

While the testing time interval wasn't nearly enough for a comprehensive test, I think the information is valuable.

Rogue - no Totem:
Melee dps (white dmg): 494
breakdown:
0.33 Hit
0.25 Glance
0.34 Crit
0.05 Miss
Poison DPS (Deadly + Insta): 87

Rogue - GoA:
Melee dps (white dmg): 547
0.30 Hit
0.26 Glance
0.35 Crit
0.05 Miss
Poison DPS (Deadly + Insta): 91

Rogue - WF:
Melee dps (white dmg): 561
0.31 Hit
0.29 Glance
0.29 Crit
0.05 Miss
Poison DPS (OH Deadly): 66

So, what we see is that in this test, melee dps has increased by 14 despite having:
6% lower crit rate (we'd expect about 2% less due to GoA)
3% more glances (we'd expect 0% difference)

If the melee crit rate on the WF test was the same as on the GoA test, minus 2% for the GoA totem, we would have had an extra 4% attacks at the crit damage level. In this testing, that equals an extra 41 dps.

If this test had been long enough to cover the vagaries of testing, invoking laws of large numbers, the final breakdown would have been:

No Totem:
Melee: 494
Poisons: 87
Total: 581

GoA Totem:
Melee: 547
Poisons: 91
Total: 638

WF Totem:
Melee: 602
Poisons: 66
Total: 668

The only variable unaccounted for, as I see it, is the effect of an extra 2% crit on backstab, and the 88AP on backstabs.

Would that make up 30 dps and a 3% glance deficit? I highly doubt it. Maybe a rogue can answer better. My calculations make it look like a 10dps increase from the 2% crit + 88 ap (for the backstab component only!). So, it's still 20dps short + the glancing deficit.

I think the testing does support what is widely thought to be the case - WF is better than GoA, even for combat dagger rogues. Not by that much, but better. With a sword/mace/fist rogue, much much better.

I'm sorry I don't have more testing, but people were getting really frustrated on the test server due to the spell queueing lag - I had a dps war and ret pally in the group, and REALLY wanted to get their numbers too, but they said that the 1 to 6 second extra delay on swings was way too much to make their results meaningful. I thought it was cool that the ret pally was doing 1K+ dps on a boss with windfury even without great gear.

A huge thanks to all that plodded through the wipes - doing the last trash pack before the boss is kinda hard with all melee dps + one lock and one healer constantly d/c'ing until we decided to keep one of the axe throwers perma-feared.

Oh yeah, people, in case you're interested:

DPS warrior (data not valid):
The World of Warcraft Armory
Ret pally (data not valid):
The World of Warcraft Armory
Combat Dagger rogue (respec'd on test realm)
The World of Warcraft Armory
Tank:
The World of Warcraft Armory
Healz!:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Then three people pug'd to help us (test realm names: Torp, warlock. Cinderella, tank2. Mzx, priest). Test subject: Bear Boss in ZA

Last edited by Disquette : 10/30/07 at 2:25 AM.
#4354SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Sebudai
People have very strange theories concerning stats and gear for our class. I don't focus on any stat in particular. I determine the value of each stat for myself, using a simulator like Yo's, and then I equip the items that result in the highest total. I don't focus on attack power, or hit rating, or haste, or whatever. I just equip the best items.

It is not as though we have a vast array of items to choose from, each focusing on a specific stat. I'm not choosing between a +hit breastplate, a +crit breastplate, a +attack power breastplate or a +haste rating breastplate. We get like 2-3 options for each slot, and they all have some of most or all of those stats.

[Midnight Chestguard] isn't my breastplate of choice because it has more of my "chosen" stat than [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] or [Skyshatter Tunic]. It's my breastplate of choice because it's just designed better. It has 3 sockets, it makes good use of the item budget by having a bit of each stat instead of stacking one, and it doesn't waste its budget on stats like Mp5. I'm not going to loot it because it's a +hit upgrade, I'm going to loot it because it's just plain better than the other options.

You guys need to stop focusing on individual stats. Use Yo's simulator, determine your own AEP values, and loot upgrades. It's really simple. All of the stats are so close in value for me now that ilvl is the largest factor in determining what is an upgrade. Not which item has more +hit rating or whatever.
I can't agree more.

What i did, probably because i was bored at work that day is an excel sheet, using the model of some previous poster here who posted his about Zul Aman loot.

I put on this sheet all the options of High-end Tier5 and Tier6 raid content sorted by slots, and put the individual stats and their AEP coefficient. It adds up and give me an overall AEP for that item, and i can easily see which item is the best for each slot and by what margin.

You also should use as AEP coefficient, not your Yo!'s results imo, but some that are used by High-end shamans, like Sebudai, because if you want to plan an 'end-game' setup you need to have it match and optimized for when you got it all, and not taking item that fill a current gap but would be obsolete once you'll get the rest.

Btw, to cross check, i'd like to know what coefficient are you currently using Sebudai?

Talking about that, have you guys also gotten some very high AEP for Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless ?
I looked at all the alternatived, but i haven't found any that outmatch this. Has anyone found any objectively better shoulder out there ?
#4355SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3orome
Flametongue Totem

I was wondering if anyone had made the comparison of WF Totem vs GoA+Flametongue totem for warriors/rogue. Does flametongue totem benefit from spelldamage? Also does imp scorch apply to the damage it causes?
#4356SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by orome
I was wondering if anyone had made the comparison of WF Totem vs GoA+Flametongue totem for warriors/rogue. Does flametongue totem benefit from spelldamage? Also does imp scorch apply to the damage it causes?
As the main post and several posts in this thread will tell you if you use the search button in the upper-right, Windfury is superior past greens.
#4357SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Btw, to cross check, i'd like to know what coefficient are you currently using Sebudai?
Crit Rating = 2.0
Agility = 2.0
Hit Rating = 1.9
Haste Rating = 2.0
Armor Penetration = 0.37
#4358SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Crit Rating = 2.0
Agility = 2.0
Hit Rating = 1.9
Haste Rating = 2.0
Armor Penetration = 0.37
Thanks, that's Very similar to the numbers i was using. And what about expertise?
#4359SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Shakkha
Thanks, that's Very similar to the numbers i was using. And what about expertise?
We should wait till someone implements it in a simulator. Disquette suggested Expertise AEP = 2 x Hit Rating AEP (By the way if this is true, than [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the best belt in the game.)
#4360SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Shakkha
Originally Posted by Nemaa
We should wait till someone implements it in a simulator. Disquette suggested Expertise AEP = 2 x Hit Rating AEP (By the way if this is true, than [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the best belt in the game.)
Huh?

even with that value, which is way too high (how often do we actually face the mob we're attacking?), i'd have Vashj belt at 266 vs the 292 of Don Alejandro (or 269 if you use double red gem, but i'd rather go red/yellow+4agi personally).

Last edited by Shakkha : 10/30/07 at 12:36 PM.
#4361SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nemaa
How did you get 292 for the don alejandro? It's ~216 for me.
Anyway it's different for everyone and it doesn't seem to contribute anything to this thread if we calculate AEP values for each other.
#4362SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3berg
This is something that I had posted on my guild forums.

I've been crying like a little girl about itemization lately so I decied to crunch some numbers on the subject to see if I had ground to stand on. It turns out that I do.

I apologize for the somewhat ugly formatting but the data contained inside is still kind of interesting.


Strength is the best attribute for enhancement shaman. Since there is no well itemized mail armor with strength, Shaman are forced to take good, but not optimal loot from other classes who could put the loot to better use.

The following data will support my claim.
I used these values for stat value which I find to be very accurate for my current gear level. Feel free to twiddle these numbers, you will still see an incredibly obvious trend.
I ignored haste and armor pen for my own benefit so that I could use lootzor.

Int = MP5_____0.0 Value
Stamina_______0.4 Value
Hit rating____1.88 Value
Haste_________1.9 Value
Agi___________1.94 Value
Crit Rating___2.0 value
2 AP__________2.0 Value
Strength______2.2 Value
Ignoring Armor type I ran these values through all of the following armor slots to determine which gear is best for enhancement.
Ilvl = Item Level.
Value = Value of the item to an enhance shaman(using values above)
Eff = Item efficiency. Value / ILvl

boot Slot
 Item Name___________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Dreadboots of the Legion____PlateRaid___141__250__1.77
Shadowmaster's Boots________LeatherRaid_141__235__1.66
Softstep Boots of Tracking__MailRaid____141__230__1.63
The mail offering for foot slot is atleast in the ballpark with the other types. Sadly the poor item efficiency of the mail item leaves the plate offering to be clearly superior.


Shoulder Slot
 Item Name_________________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Blood-stained Pauldrons___________PlateRaid___141__240__1.70
Mantle of Darkness________________LeatherRaid_141__230__1.63
Shoulders of the Hidden Predator__MailRaid____141__230__1.63
Skyshatter Pauldrons______________MailRaid____146__220__1.50
Again plate dominates due to the highest item efficiency. Skyshatter has a poor offering with terrible item efficiency.

Leg Slot
 Item Name_____________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Legguards of Endless Rage_____PlateRaid____151__330__2.18
Bow-stitched Leggings_________MailRaid_____141__310__2.19
Leggings of Murderous Intent__LeatherRaid__138__280__2.02
Skyshatter Pants______________MailRaid_____146__280__1.91
The leg slot is actually the showing for mail items with the Bow stiched Leggings providing strong item efficiency. Plate still provides the best overall offering but it is due to item level. In this slot Skyshatter is over 10% worse than Bow-Stitched despite having a higher item level.


Chest Slot Best Pieces
 Item Name___________________Item Type___Ilvl_Val__Eff
Midnight Chestguard_________LeatherRaid__151__357__2.36
Heartshatter Breastplate____PlateRaid____141__320__2.26
Nether Shadow Tunic_________LeatherRaid__141__320__2.26
Krakken-Heart Breastplate___PlateRaid____138__310__2.24
Mail of Fevered Pursuit_____MailRaid_____151__305__2.01
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest_____LeatherRaid__128__300__2.34
Skyshatter Tunic____________MailRaid_____146__290__1.98
This one is brutal. There are 4 non-mail items better for me than any of the mail options. The 2 mail options that do exist are the worst designed items of the bunch for item efficiency. The Skyshatter tunic (from illidan) is itemized SO poorly that it is effectively a sidegrade to a leather piece from SSC almost 20 item levels its inferior.


Head Slot
 Item Name________________________Item Type____Ilvl_Val__Eff
Cursed Vision of Sargeras________LeatherRaid__151__380__2.5
Helm of the Illidari Shatterer___PlateRaid____141__335__2.3
Forest Prowler's Helm____________MailRaid_____141__295__2.09
Skyshatter Cover_________________MailRaid_____146__295__2.02
Again the item efficiency of the mail items is far behind the alternative leather and plate items. Skyshatter once again is miles behind where it could have been.

In summary the gear 'designed' for us is 'pound for pound' the worst gear available for us. In my opinion the biggest buff that we could hope to receive is for us to get equivalent itemization as the other classes.
#4363SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Shakkha
I can't agree more.

What i did, probably because i was bored at work that day is an excel sheet, using the model of some previous poster here who posted his about Zul Aman loot.

I put on this sheet all the options of High-end Tier5 and Tier6 raid content sorted by slots, and put the individual stats and their AEP coefficient. It adds up and give me an overall AEP for that item, and i can easily see which item is the best for each slot and by what margin.

You also should use as AEP coefficient, not your Yo!'s results imo, but some that are used by High-end shamans, like Sebudai, because if you want to plan an 'end-game' setup you need to have it match and optimized for when you got it all, and not taking item that fill a current gap but would be obsolete once you'll get the rest.

Btw, to cross check, i'd like to know what coefficient are you currently using Sebudai?

Talking about that, have you guys also gotten some very high AEP for Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless ?
I looked at all the alternatived, but i haven't found any that outmatch this. Has anyone found any objectively better shoulder out there ?
I've done the same thing myself with an Excel sheet after seeing Rob's post =). I show the Bladed Shoulerpads with a higher AEP than both T4 and T5 as well. I assume all gem slots will be reds for comparison's sake due to not necessarily knowing which ones will be used for the RED requirements.

As far as the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, if I use my current AEP values and assume expertise has an AEP of 2.3 (hit rating * 1.8 * 75%, Rob's suggested value in this post) it is rated at 221.8 and is only beat by Boneweave Girdle at 222.7. If I use Sebudai's numbers with Disquette's suggestion for AEP the Belt of One-Hundred Death's is 262.2 with Boneweave second at 232.3. I'd wager a guess the final value for expertise might be between those two numbers which would still put the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths worthy of your waist slot for a good long while.
#4364SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Shakkha
Huh?

even with that value, which is way too high (how often do we actually face the mob we're attacking?), i'd have Vashj belt at 266 vs the 292 of Don Alejandro (or 269 if you use double red gem, but i'd rather go red/yellow+4agi personally).
I guess maybe I don't understand how expertise works if it's way too high.

Assume: White damage = 50%, Yellow damage = 50% (simplified, i know)
Known: 1% hit = 15.8 HR, 1% non-dodge = 15.8 ER
Known: Dodges can happen from behind.

For white damage alone, up to the expertise cap, expertise rating is exactly as good as hit rating, since 1% non-miss = 1% non-dodge.

If yellow dps = white dps, then each non-dodge yellow functions exactly the same as a non-dodge white damage.

So, hit would be worth exactly 2x as much because it functions as hit does, but for yellow and white damage. If you're attacking from the front, it'd be ~ 3x as much, because you're reducing parries too.

Is there something really stupid that I'm missing, or is the quibble just with the approximation of 50% white / 50% yellow.
#4365SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Nemaa
How did you get 292 for the don alejandro? It's ~216 for me.
Anyway it's different for everyone and it doesn't seem to contribute anything to this thread if we calculate AEP values for each other.
you're completely right, i just checked i pust the ap into haste rating. Duh me :p

Originally Posted by Disquette
I guess maybe I don't understand how expertise works if it's way too high.

Assume: White damage = 50%, Yellow damage = 50% (simplified, i know)
Known: 1% hit = 15.8 HR, 1% non-dodge = 15.8 ER
Known: Dodges can happen from behind.

For white damage alone, up to the expertise cap, expertise rating is exactly as good as hit rating, since 1% non-miss = 1% non-dodge.

If yellow dps = white dps, then each non-dodge yellow functions exactly the same as a non-dodge white damage.

So, hit would be worth exactly 2x as much because it functions as hit does, but for yellow and white damage. If you're attacking from the front, it'd be ~ 3x as much, because you're reducing parries too.

Is there something really stupid that I'm missing, or is the quibble just with the approximation of 50% white / 50% yellow.
It's not my day. Two posts and two dumb mistakes.

I stand corrected again, you are completely right i confess i hadn't gone through your post at length enough, but if it works as your little sample testing seem to show, then it is a good value indeed.
#4366SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Looking ahead to 2.3, I've got maybe 4 upgrades I can get from the new Zul'Aman drops and/or badge loot. I've been wearing the T4 helm for some time, and one of the new helms is over a 100 AEP upgrade, but at the cost of losing the RED. Is this just a matter of "run the simulator", or is there a point at which we know that enough AEP is more than the 1% DPS increase (At 30% crit, obviously more as crit increases) from the RED?

Along that lines, I'm going to want to maximize my badge gains, whats the current agreed on instance for badges:time?
#4367SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Barackado
New Haste Mail patterns from BT and ZA drops

After seeing some of the new drops available from BT and ZA, Im curious whether or not procuring any of the haste drops will be to our advantage as DW shaman. As it has been stated, we need to avoid getting into the timing valley.

Has anyone been able to run the math for the possibilites of using [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] or [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] for example?

If the answer is that they are not useful, would it be possible to be shown the math as to why not?

Curious, and thanks in advance...
#4368SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Barackado
As it has been stated, we need to avoid getting into the timing valley.
That was refuted quite some time ago actually. I do apologize that the OP still referred to it in a way, although it also included some strong cautionary statements saying "just a theory, don't worry about it". I just need to get around to updating that a bit. Basically the white DPS gain at that attack speed would negate whatever extra time you're spent waiting for a WF to finish cooldown.
#4369SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
Looking ahead to 2.3, I've got maybe 4 upgrades I can get from the new Zul'Aman drops and/or badge loot. I've been wearing the T4 helm for some time, and one of the new helms is over a 100 AEP upgrade, but at the cost of losing the RED. Is this just a matter of "run the simulator", or is there a point at which we know that enough AEP is more than the 1% DPS increase (At 30% crit, obviously more as crit increases) from the RED?
well... *if* the AEP numbers for the weapon dps figures are right, then do we not have every coefficient accounted for in terms of where our dps comes from?

So if you had:

96 * 9 (mh dps * mh aep) + 96 * 3.4 (oh dps * oh aep) = 864 + 326
and lets say an average AEP of 200 per gear slot (14?) = 14 * 200 = 2800
Your total damage contribution from gear and weapons = 3990

100 / 3990 = 2.5%

You say RED = 1% dps to you? So then 100 AEP would be better since 100 AEP = 2.5% dps increase.

This is only valid if you can indeed say that your dps is fully encapsulated by the AEP gear and Weapon numbers.
#4370SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
Originally Posted by Disquette
well... *if* the AEP numbers for the weapon dps figures are right, then do we not have every coefficient accounted for in terms of where our dps comes from?

So if you had:

96 * 9 (mh dps * mh aep) + 96 * 3.4 (oh dps * oh aep) = 864 + 326
and lets say an average AEP of 200 per gear slot (14?) = 14 * 200 = 2800
Your total damage contribution from gear and weapons = 3990

100 / 3990 = 2.5%

You say RED = 1% dps to you? So then 100 AEP would be better since 100 AEP = 2.5% dps increase.

This is only valid if you can indeed say that your dps is fully encapsulated by the AEP gear and Weapon numbers.
Even naked you still have some base strength and agility (maybe ~400 AEP worth at my gear level). Not enough of a difference to sway your conclusion, but not negligible either.
#4371SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3leupster
hi guys, i have a "problem" concernig the trinket Romulo's Poison Vial - Items - World of Warcraft
its valued only the hit=49 aep. but if the poison makes 2% dmg from us, lets say from 600dps only, its 12 dps, lets say 10 dps. 10 dps=140 ap? so this trinket is at 189 aep ? there must be something wrong, 10dps=140ap i think seems wrong? if not, this trinket would be also a very nice one doesnt it?

at last, sry for my bad english....
#4372SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
140 attack power increases dps by a lot more than 10. I'm guessing that trinket actually comes in around 120 AEP. I have to head back to work, so someone else will have to explain the math for you!
#4373SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
A rule of thumb that I used when I was back in the rogue world, which has limited but some semblance to the shaman world, is that 14 AP = 3 dps at level 60 with T3 gear levels.

14 AP = 1dps only if:
you only auto-attack
no offhand
0% crit
0% armor
0% miss / dodge / block / parry

etc.

I think this came up within the last 4 pages.
#4374SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
the amount of your total damage the poison vial makes up of your dps as your gear increases becomes smaller and smaller, making it not scale all that well. This means that as you do better and better, the vial becomes less and less desirable. DST's haste rating is always good as it helps no matter what gear you have.

also, dps ->ap is not a straight conversion of 1 -> 14 simply because the ap applies to more than just our weapon damage (it applies to both of our weapons for one thing) In any case, that is why Malan has the "plus some unknown value for the proc" (edit: Disquette just said this above me)

(though it would be arguable if it had some sort of spelldamage coefficient)
#4375SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
4ap = 4 aep = 1dps is this still right with avarage gear. That is much easier way to compare something purely dps boost to aep upgrade.

Edit: how slow am I.
#4376SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
4ap = 4 aep = 1dps is this still right with avarage gear
4 AP = 1 DPS is about right for my gear, which I'd consider T5-equivalent.
#4377SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Malan
You realize that even with Kings, Agility gives less Crit than Crit Rating does? Its not an accident that Agility is weighed less on our AEP system than Crit Rating is. Strength > AP, and Crit Rating > Agility.
[e] 22.07 Crit Rating = 1% Crit. 25 Agility = 1% Crit.
As an example, 200 Agility with Kings would give you 8.8% Crit. 200 Crit Rating would give you 9.06% Crit.
Yes, yes. But I like my 20% dodge unbuffed too much to sacrifice that over tiny bit of crit. Dead dps - no dps.
#4378SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I value Crit higher than Agility and still have 19.44% dodge unbuffed. You do the math there.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#4379SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mox
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Yes, yes. But I like my 20% dodge unbuffed too much to sacrifice that over tiny bit of crit. Dead dps - no dps.
Somehow don't think that 20% dodge is going to save you for very long in raids....
#4380SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Malan
I value Crit higher than Agility and still have 19.44% dodge unbuffed. You do the math there.
We were talking about T6 here.
Lets look at choises you have - there is a distinct reason why ppl consider T6 for ench not good, even if you dont value agility.

If you would pref more than chest + gloves from T6 over alternative drops from BT/MH, then:

Head
Skyshatter Cover vs Forest Prowler´s Helm
200,6 vs 224 AEP
and -2.15% dodge

Shoulders
Skyshatter Pauldrons vs Shoulders of Hidden Predator
192,8 (assuming two pyrestones) vs 204 AEP
and -1,52% dodge

Legs
Skyshatter Pants vs Bow-stitched Leggings
225 (assuming 5str 7stam gem) vs 288 (assuming 2xpyrestone 1x5str 7stam) AEP
and - 2.15% dodge

So going full T6 you would loose 97,6 passive AEP or only 27,6 if T6 set bonus is in effect. This might sound a rather minor dps loss, you might even consider that irrelevant compared to INT or mp5 gained or "full T6" braging value... BUT you would also loose 5,82% dodge. Thats what I was talking about Malan.

Only point to go for T6 is that the drop rate is better. Even you probably have much less competition on non-set items than on tiertokens, you can be just out of luck with them.

Edit: 20% dodge saves you from random cleaves, hits and trashaggro you will encounter lot more in MH trashpacks than in ssc/TK.
#4381SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
My point is, you are wearing T6 content and preferring Agility, with 20% dodge being your reasoning. I am wearing a mix of T4 and T5 content gear, and I have 0.6% less dodge than you. I'm saying that your reasoning doesn't really hold up.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#4382SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Khlysti
18.55% dodge and you have 5/5 anticipation (that is included on character sheet, right?)

I can see *some* point in wanting to keep dodge (and equally armour and health) high to avoid death from unavoidable sources, but really with most trash mobs you either pull aggro and die, or its healable/tauntable etc. A few points of dodge won't help, playing sensibly will.

Our 'job' is two things, buff the group we are in, and do dps. While we cannot do either if we are dead, we can gear to do them as best as possible while alive. I have found no fight at all that requires ever using 'extra' survival gear, or where I have wanted to have had maxed out anticipation or any points in toughness.

Assuming your gear is of the appropriate level for the content you are doing there is no reason to do anything other than go for the 'best' aep item for each slot, and focus on talents that boost dps / buffing power. As such picking up talents like Nature's Guidance, Totemic Mastery and Enhancing Totems would be of far more use to you than trying to get agility where possible instead of crit rating.

If what I saw in your talent build is infact some form of non raid spec then ignore the comments about it, but the point does still stand that crit rating gives more dps boost (even with kings present) than agility and there is no fight ingame where the miniscule survival gain of a few extra points of dodge will measurably affect your survival.
#4383SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
If you mean me, I have 3/5 anticipation only because I need 5 points in that tier.
(I don't think you mean me, but just in case)

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#4384SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Malan
If you mean me, I have 3/5 anticipation only because I need 5 points in that tier.
(I don't think you mean me, but just in case)
I'd imagine you'll be 2/5 once 2.3 comes out though?
#4385SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Rodger dodger.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#4386SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Disquette
I guess maybe I don't understand how expertise works if it's way too high.

Assume: White damage = 50%, Yellow damage = 50% (simplified, i know)
Known: 1% hit = 15.8 HR, 1% non-dodge = 15.8 ER
Known: Dodges can happen from behind.

For white damage alone, up to the expertise cap, expertise rating is exactly as good as hit rating, since 1% non-miss = 1% non-dodge.

If yellow dps = white dps, then each non-dodge yellow functions exactly the same as a non-dodge white damage.

So, hit would be worth exactly 2x as much because it functions as hit does, but for yellow and white damage. If you're attacking from the front, it'd be ~ 3x as much, because you're reducing parries too.

Is there something really stupid that I'm missing, or is the quibble just with the approximation of 50% white / 50% yellow.
I use this reasoning (but with different numbers) for my weighting of Expertise. I use my WWSs to get the ratio of white damage to WF/SS damage and use that as a multiplier.

So:
Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (TotalPhysicalDamagePercent/WhiteDamagePercent)

While attacking from the back and assuming the boss can always dodge.

Originally Posted by Malan
Looking ahead to 2.3, I've got maybe 4 upgrades I can get from the new Zul'Aman drops and/or badge loot. I've been wearing the T4 helm for some time, and one of the new helms is over a 100 AEP upgrade, but at the cost of losing the RED. Is this just a matter of "run the simulator", or is there a point at which we know that enough AEP is more than the 1% DPS increase (At 30% crit, obviously more as crit increases) from the RED?

Along that lines, I'm going to want to maximize my badge gains, whats the current agreed on instance for badges:time?
See: http://elitistjerks.com/533225-post4442.html for a correction
RED value isn't a 1% DPS increase with 30% crit. Say you have 1000 physical dps with 30% crit. Usually, your FinalDPS figure would look like this:

FinalDPS = [ (1-CritRate) * Original DPS ] + [ (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2)
1000 = 0.7 Original DPS  + (0.3 * Original DPS * 2)
We can add RED in two possible ways:
Method 1
1000 = [ (1-CritRate) * Original DPS ] + [ (CritRate * OriginalDPS * (2 + .03)]
1000 = 0.7 OriginalDPS + [ 0.3 * OriginalDPS  (2 + 1.03) ]
1000 = 1.309 OriginalDPS
OriginalDPS1 = 764
...or

Method 2
FinalDPS = [ (1-CritRate) * Original DPS ] + (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2 * 1.03)
1000 = 0.7 OriginalDPS + (0.3 * OriginalDPS * 2 * 1.03)
1000 = 1.318 OriginalDPS 
OriginalDPS = 758

Now if you had no RED:

Method 1
OriginalDPS = 764
DPSwithCrits = 764 * 1.30
DPSwithCrits = 993
Method 1: RED contribution: 1000-993 = 7 DPS != 1% of 1000 = 10 DPS.

Method 2
OriginalDPS = 758
DPSwithCrits = 758 * 1.30
DPSwithCrits = 986
Method 2: RED contribution: 1000-986 = 13.65 DPS != 1% of 1000 = 10 DPS.

__________________
Please read the first post before replying to the Enhancement Shaman thread.

Last edited by panny : 11/01/07 at 1:46 AM. Reason: Clarity
#4387SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Yah but that's not even accounting for the extra damage that a crit does? You're valuing crit DPS as just 30% of white dps with 3% more thrown on top, but its more than that to begin with.

__________________
Originally Posted by Lrigatonmai
The hemo thread is proof that you can't spec out of stupid.
Originally Posted by Hanos
No, you can't justify spec'ing for less DPS simply because you are too stupid to survive with the right spec. We have a term for people like this "Unguilded"
#4388SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by panny
Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (YellowDamagePercent/WhiteDamagePercent)
This should be:
Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (White % + Yellow %)/White %

Edit: I see you corrected yourself.
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah but that's not even accounting for the extra damage that a crit does? You're valuing crit DPS as just 30% of white dps with 3% more thrown on top, but its more than that to begin with.
Well, it's confusing as written, but I think it's right. For example:
OriginalDPS = 764
DPSwithCrits = 764*0.7 + 764*0.3*2 = 764 * 1.30

However... this might be wrong:
1000 = OriginalDPS + (0.3 * OriginalDPS * 1.03)
This line assumes that RED makes crits do 203% of normal melee damage and not 206% of normal melee damage. Is this the case? If not, the line becomes
1000 = 0.7*Original DPS + 2*0.3*OriginalDPS*1.03
or
1000 = OriginalDPS + 0.3*OriginalDPS*1.06

In this case, the RED becomes worth 13.7 DPS (i.e. more than 1% of DPS). Based on the gem tooltip and this post, I believe that this is actually the proper result.

Last edited by Rob : 10/30/07 at 11:41 PM.
#4389SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Rob
Well, it's confusing as written, but I think it's right. For example:
OriginalDPS = 764
DPSwithCrits = 764*0.7 + 764*0.3*2 = 764 * 1.30

However... this might be wrong:
1000 = OriginalDPS + (0.3 * OriginalDPS * 1.03)
This line assumes that RED makes crits do 203% of normal melee damage and not 206% of normal melee damage. Is this the case? If not, the line becomes
1000 = 0.7*Original DPS + 2*0.3*OriginalDPS*1.03
or
1000 = OriginalDPS + 0.3*OriginalDPS*1.06

In this case, the RED becomes worth 13.7 DPS (i.e. more than 1% of DPS). Based on the gem tooltip and this post, I believe that this is actually the proper result.
I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from (possibly I have to work on my math communicating skills). My FinalDPS figure represents the value of DPS including RED (1000). The linked post indicates that RED is a flat 1.03% multiplier tacked onto the final crit value?

Edit: Ah, I see where the confusion could've sunk in, let me make a few edits to explain the initial equation.

Originally Posted by Malan
Yah but that's not even accounting for the extra damage that a crit does? You're valuing crit DPS as just 30% of white dps with 3% more thrown on top, but its more than that to begin with.
I never mentioned white DPS at all for my RED calculations. And no I'm not valuing crit DPS that way, otherwise crit DPS would be lower than original DPS. I've editted my post again, hopefully how I came to the FinalDPS figure is clearer.

__________________
Please read the first post before replying to the Enhancement Shaman thread.

Last edited by panny : 10/31/07 at 12:42 AM.
#4390SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by panny
I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from (possibly I have to work on my math communicating skills). My FinalDPS figure represents the value of DPS including RED (1000). The linked post indicates that RED is a flat 1.03% multiplier tacked onto the final crit value?
Linked post indicates that Crit Damage = Regular Damage * Critical Multiplier * RED Multiplier.
In the case of enhancement shamans, that's Crit Damage = Regular Damage * 2 * 1.03 = 2.06 * Regular Damage.
This throws off your equation, which calculates OriginalDPS under the assumption that Crit Damage = 2.03 * Regular Damage in this line:
1000 = OriginalDPS + (0.3 * OriginalDPS * 1.03)

You see, really, you are simplifying the equation, which is
1000 = (Portion of damage from hits) + (Portion of damage from crits)
and thus should be
1000 = 0.7*OriginalDPS + 0.3*1.03*2*OriginalDPS
1000 = 1.318OriginalDPS
not
1000 = OriginalDPS + 0.3*1.03*OriginalDPS
1000 = 1.309Original DPS

Alternately, you might have been mentally setting it up as
1000 = (Portion of damage from hits) + (Critical damage bonus)
In this case you'd have
1000 = OriginalDPS + 0.3*1.06*OriginalDPS
Regardless, you are missing half the RED's contribution if it does make crits deal 206% damage.

Last edited by Rob : 10/31/07 at 1:01 AM.
#4391SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Vareyn
Originally Posted by Disquette
I guess maybe I don't understand how expertise works if it's way too high.

Assume: White damage = 50%, Yellow damage = 50% (simplified, i know)
Known: 1% hit = 15.8 HR, 1% non-dodge = 15.8 ER
Known: Dodges can happen from behind.

For white damage alone, up to the expertise cap, expertise rating is exactly as good as hit rating, since 1% non-miss = 1% non-dodge.

If yellow dps = white dps, then each non-dodge yellow functions exactly the same as a non-dodge white damage.

So, hit would be worth exactly 2x as much because it functions as hit does, but for yellow and white damage. If you're attacking from the front, it'd be ~ 3x as much, because you're reducing parries too.

Is there something really stupid that I'm missing, or is the quibble just with the approximation of 50% white / 50% yellow.
One factor I think you are missing is that the extra white attacks provided by expertise rating would not be criting. This would already be taken into account for the AEP of hit rating. However the extra attacks resulting for your yellow attacks would have the potential to crit.
#4392SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Rob
Linked post indicates that Crit Damage = Regular Damage * Critical Multiplier * RED Multiplier.
In the case of enhancement shamans, that's Crit Damage = Regular Damage * 2 * 1.03 = 2.06 * Regular Damage.
This throws off your equation, which calculates OriginalDPS under the assumption that Crit Damage = 2.03 * Regular Damage in this line:
1000 = OriginalDPS + (0.3 * OriginalDPS * 1.03)

You see, really, you are simplifying the equation, which is
1000 = (Portion of damage from hits) + (Portion of damage from crits)
and thus should be
1000 = 0.7*OriginalDPS + 0.3*1.03*2*OriginalDPS
1000 = 1.318OriginalDPS
not
1000 = OriginalDPS + 0.3*1.03*OriginalDPS
1000 = 1.309Original DPS

Alternately, you might have been mentally setting it up as
1000 = (Portion of damage from hits) + (Critical damage bonus)
In this case you'd have
1000 = OriginalDPS + 0.3*1.06*OriginalDPS
Regardless, you are missing half the RED's contribution if it does make crits deal 206% damage.
Oh, I see, a stupid mistake on my part (too used to thinking of crits as a percentage of damage increase, I guess). Sorry, I didn't read your earlier post better, I thought you were talking about the multiplication effects of "Slayer" type talents.

Edit: I editted my original calculations. Turns out if you take crits as 2.03, you get my original figure, if you take then as 2.06, you get 13.7 DPS from RED. With 2.03 crits, you get 7 DPS. Either way, it probably makes T4 helm worth using over anything without a meta socket (especially if you count 2 piece bonus, the 12 agi, regemming/enchanting costs).

__________________
Please read the first post before replying to the Enhancement Shaman thread.

Last edited by panny : 10/31/07 at 2:00 AM.
#4393SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
I've read the main post as well as several pages of responses but I haven't read *every* response so it's possible this question/point has been brought up and refuted before.

That being said:

Doesn't AP/Strength have diminishing returns when compared with haste, hit, crit rating and agility?

For example, let's say my DPS output is 1000 on average when counting all buffs/procs.

If I increase my AP by 24, my dps will increase by ~3.15dps (DW), which is a 3.15/1000 = 0.315% dps increase.

However, if I instead choose to increase my Agility by 12, my dps will increase by my crit chance increase: 0.48%.

As the amount of AP I have increases, the % increase in dps AP gives me decreases while the % increase in dps Agility gives me remains constant.


So it would seem to me that as my overall AP increases, the weight given to AP and strength should decrease.

Is my thinking flawed?
#4394SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by pembosa
I've read the main post as well as several pages of responses but I haven't read *every* response so it's possible this question/point has been brought up and refuted before.

That being said:

Doesn't AP/Strength have diminishing returns when compared with haste, hit, crit rating and agility?

For example, let's say my DPS output is 1000 on average when counting all buffs/procs.

If I increase my AP by 24, my dps will increase by ~3.15dps (DW), which is a 3.15/1000 = 0.315% dps increase.

However, if I instead choose to increase my Agility by 12, my dps will increase by my crit chance increase: 0.48%.

As the amount of AP I have increases, the % increase in dps AP gives me decreases while the % increase in dps Agility gives me remains constant.


So it would seem to me that as my overall AP increases, the weight given to AP and strength should decrease.

Is my thinking flawed?
To use your example, since the value of agility increases with AP, the value of AP must also increase with agility. Remember scaling goes both ways. You don't get diminishing returns from AP (you get the same flat DPS increase), but you gain less relative DPS increases.

As your overall AP increases, the weight given to agi/crit increases. This means the weight relative to AP and Strength DOES decreases. Remember that we are using AP as a method of normalisation.

__________________
Please read the first post before replying to the Enhancement Shaman thread.
#4395SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3keltzed
Originally Posted by pembosa
I've read the main post as well as several pages of responses but I haven't read *every* response so it's possible this question/point has been brought up and refuted before.

That being said:

Doesn't AP/Strength have diminishing returns when compared with haste, hit, crit rating and agility?

For example, let's say my DPS output is 1000 on average when counting all buffs/procs.

If I increase my AP by 24, my dps will increase by ~3.15dps (DW), which is a 3.15/1000 = 0.315% dps increase.

However, if I instead choose to increase my Agility by 12, my dps will increase by my crit chance increase: 0.48%.

As the amount of AP I have increases, the % increase in dps AP gives me decreases while the % increase in dps Agility gives me remains constant.


So it would seem to me that as my overall AP increases, the weight given to AP and strength should decrease.

Is my thinking flawed?
It seems to me that what you've run into here is the fact that the AEP numbers in the first post were generated assuming a particular set of base stats, and will be most accurate when evaluating small changes to gear around those base stats. Tools like Yo!'s simulator will estimate AEP values for you based on your current gear level, and those numbers do change significantly as your gear changes.

Based on the posts I've read, your original conjecture seems accurate. Shaman with gear significantly better than the "base" values used in the OP have posted the results of AEP simulations for their gear, and those simulations tend to value hit and crit higher relative to attack power than the base AEP numbers.
#4396SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Celetroll
Originally Posted by Khlysti
If what I saw in your talent build is infact some form of non raid spec then ignore the comments about it...
Yes, thats correct. My very current talent spec is for arena PVP. 2 sec faster grounding, -10% elemental damage etc. I raid with very common 0/42/19 spec.

Originally Posted by Malan
My point is, you are wearing T6 content and preferring Agility, with 20% dodge being your reasoning. I am wearing a mix of T4 and T5 content gear, and I have 0.6% less dodge than you. I'm saying that your reasoning doesn't really hold up.
I even gave you MY gearchoises in black and while.

I have a choise to wear either T6 or alternative gear. AEP difference is small, but dodge difference is big. What part of it was unclear?

Good for you to have that dodge with your current gearlevel. Good gearchoises i think. But do not assume that keeping it up while increasing your other stats with gear that will become available for you in the future is that natural as you seem to think.
#4397SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Shakkha
You also should use as AEP coefficient, not your Yo!'s results imo, but some that are used by High-end shamans, like Sebudai, because if you want to plan an 'end-game' setup you need to have it match and optimized for when you got it all, and not taking item that fill a current gap but would be obsolete once you'll get the rest.
This makes very little sense to me. Sure, if I was entering BT and wanted to know what to pick up there, I'd use weights appropriate for someone in full BT/hyjal gear, but this can't apply to everyone. Personally, I'm in a guild just getting into T5 content (2/6, 2/4 down this week) so it makes no sense to use weights for BT gear. I should be using weights appropriate for the level of progression that I am at, not 1-2 tiers beyond, where the gear I'm currently working towards will be replaced.

Edit: Speaking of stat weightings, I noticed something odd with the ones I've been using. I recently ran Yo's sim (5x 10,000 sec) with my current gear (~T4) and came out with the following averages:

AP 1
Crit rating 1.6
Hit rating 1.46
Haste rating 1.55
Armor penetration 0.25
Strength 2
Agility 1.55

Now, compare this to the ones listed in the OP for entry level shaman in heroic gear:

AP 1
Crit rating 1.97
Hit rating 1.34
Haste rating 1.28
Armor penetration 0.22
Strength 2
Agility 1.74


My weights basically show crit undervalued and hit overvalued compared to what's typically seen here for not only BT level gear but even entry kara gear. Is this just a reflection of my current stats and common raid buffs? Are my stats atypically lopsided compared to most at my progression level? Is my AP really low for my gear level? I know my hit is higher than many, but I certainly haven't been looking to stack it at all.

I ask because I would expect that as one progresses, their personal weights would tend to transition from the entry level ones listed here toward the BT level ones, and mine seemed to have moved the other direction.

Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 6:20 AM.
#4398SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by pembosa

That being said:

Doesn't AP/Strength have diminishing returns when compared with haste, hit, crit rating and agility?
Why?
consider the attack table
(100-dwmiss-dodge+hit+crit-glancing), now this gets above 100 at some point and after this point each and every added crit/hit is worth less than the previous point.

AP instead influences dps linearly, each additional AP will always result in x additional DPS, since the basic whitedps formula is attacktable*specialtalents*(weapon dps + ap/14)
Each 14 AP will give you let's say 2.5 whitedps.

There is no diminishing return on ap/str.

To put it correctly, at one certain level of gear, if you don't change anything else, just add AP you will gain a linear amount of DPS. That the slope of the graph is different for each gear is to be expected.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#4399SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Skiace
This makes very little sense to me. Sure, if I was entering BT and wanted to know what to pick up there, I'd use weights appropriate for someone in full BT/hyjal gear, but this can't apply to everyone. Personally, I'm in a guild just getting into T5 content (2/6, 2/4 down this week) so it makes no sense to use weights for BT gear. I should be using weights appropriate for the level of progression that I am at, not 1-2 tiers beyond, where the gear I'm currently working towards will be replaced.
You should be using one of the different models, Yo's simulator or my equip optimizer to plan your equipment, you should not randomly use AEP values of other people's equip. While they ususally don't differ much, especially the value of hit vs. crit changes a lot for different equips as soon as you hit 100% UR and >90% flurry uptime.

Imho AEP values are just there to ease your decision if you have to make a quick one.
You won't make a real wrong one if you considere the AEP values, but you won't make the perfect one. It's just the bail out case if you forgot to check your gear progress in one of the enh shaman models.

__________________
http://code.google.com/p/wowequipoptimizer/
#4400SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
You should be using one of the different models, Yo's simulator or my equip optimizer to plan your equipment, you should not randomly use AEP values of other people's equip. While they ususally don't differ much, especially the value of hit vs. crit changes a lot for different equips as soon as you hit 100% UR and >90% flurry uptime.

Imho AEP values are just there to ease your decision if you have to make a quick one.
You won't make a real wrong one if you considere the AEP values, but you won't make the perfect one. It's just the bail out case if you forgot to check your gear progress in one of the enh shaman models.
I actually do use numbers I get with my gear in Yo's sim, (see my edit above, there's issues there too) but the statement that everyone should be using illidan-farming weights just didn't make sense to me at all.
#4401SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3LazyJoe
Well, it looks like your calculations about RED are totally wrong because your crit percentage is calculated like most people do, ie not the way it really works inside an attack table.

I'm cureently having ~30% crit unbuffed, let's say my average crit rating in raid situation is 40% (pretty easy to reach with kings, MotW, the feral aura and double mongoose enchant.... if i drop GoA i have more than 50% when the two mongooose proc, yes i'm a crit lover )

So my attack table on a boss looks like this :

13,3% miss
5,6% dodge
25% glancing blows
16,1% regular hit
40% crit

To simplify things, if I assume a regular white hit to be 100 damage, we have :

16,1% * 100 = 16,1 dps from hit damage
25% * 0.7 * 100 = 17,5 dps from glancing blows
40% * 2 * 100 = 80 dps from crits

so 113,6 dps, with a very significant part coming from crits

now if i have add the RED effect, crits will do

40% * 2 * 1.03 * 100 = 82,4 dps

This leads to a total of 116 dps with RED.

116/113,4 = 1,021 so the RED is a 2,1 % dps increase in my situation
#4402SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Skiace
This makes very little sense to me. Sure, if I was entering BT and wanted to know what to pick up there, I'd use weights appropriate for someone in full BT/hyjal gear, but this can't apply to everyone. Personally, I'm in a guild just getting into T5 content (2/6, 2/4 down this week) so it makes no sense to use weights for BT gear. I should be using weights appropriate for the level of progression that I am at, not 1-2 tiers beyond, where the gear I'm currently working towards will be replaced.
Of course.

What i meant was about the discussion on T6 gear content.

Anyway what i meant, is in my opinion one should use Yo! figures that correspond to his 'mid term' goal. You gear up to achieve some level of items then you should use Yo!'s that correspond to this goal, and not your current figures that give too much of an 'item per item' grades.
#4403SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
I'm not sure why you even think that 5% extra dodge is even remotely useful. Can someone explain that to me?
I've done my part of aggro pulling on most bosses and I'll tell you, even with ~22% dodge buffed they kill me straight away. Yeah, I might dodge one hit, so what. Most bosses hit so fast that the second hit comes straight after and I'd be damned if you dodge more then once or twice in a row.
#4404SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
I have to ask for one clearification on Windfury.
( I can really most of you see heavy breathing now ... )

I absolutely agree to the OP and the first 50 sites of discussion that Offhand has to be slower but why are most people stickied to 2.6 and 2.7 weapons?

Is it only because they want to avoid the 1.4-1.5 dps gap or are their further reasons?

Is there anyone which has done dps testing ala

Weaponspeed | assumed weapondps | resulting dps |

to verify these speed?

I read first 50 sites day before yesterday and perhaps I only oversaw it but the logical reason is not clear to me.

Thank you in advance for answering
PS: If there are strange constructs in Speech please be patient with a German.
#4405SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
Originally Posted by Illundai
I'm not sure why you even think that 5% extra dodge is even remotely useful. Can someone explain that to me?
I've done my part of aggro pulling on most bosses and I'll tell you, even with ~22% dodge buffed they kill me straight away. Yeah, I might dodge one hit, so what. Most bosses hit so fast that the second hit comes straight after and I'd be damned if you dodge more then once or twice in a row.
I would assume most bosses will 2 or 3 hit you.
So with an dodge at 25% you can do simple statistics.

Will you be hit 3 times in a row?
dodge formula %
20 0.80^3 51
25 0.75^3 42
30 0.70^3 34

So when you further assume that each hit will take 1 second you see that with high dodge value you give yout tank 4 seconds to regain aggro or your healer to allow another hit.

You cannot only see the usefulness for one hit.
#4406SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Badboyrune
Originally Posted by pilger81
I would assume most bosses will 2 or 3 hit you.
So with an dodge at 25% you can do simple statistics.

Will you be hit 3 times in a row?
dodge formula %
20 0.80^3 51
25 0.75^3 42
30 0.70^3 34

So when you further assume that each hit will take 1 second you see that with high dodge value you give yout tank 4 seconds to regain aggro or your healer to allow another hit.

You cannot only see the usefulness for one hit.
If you are talking BT level I doubt there's any boss that would not 1 or 2 hit you. Also assuming 1 hit per second is probably quite optimistic seeing that you should be attacking the boss from behind along with all other melees. As soon as the boss turns there's a pretty high chance some of the melees will have a bunch of parries, resulting in a swift death for you most likely.
#4407SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Good for you to have that dodge with your current gearlevel. Good gearchoises i think. But do not assume that keeping it up while increasing your other stats with gear that will become available for you in the future is that natural as you seem to think.
You are missing the forest for the trees here guy. I don't care about my dodge rate. My post illustrated that despite not caring about my dodge rate, and despite valuing Crit Rating much higher than Agility, I still have damn near the same dodge rate as you, at a tier and a half lower gear ratio than you. Let me spell it out for you - you don't need to go looking for agility, its going to come to you anyways.

You want to have some super dodge ratio, fine. Works for you I guess. But the entire reason that I even engaged in this thought process with you was because you were pushing that idea as though it were an accepted fact, that agility was worth more than crit.
#4408SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by pilger81
I would assume most bosses will 2 or 3 hit you.
So with an dodge at 25% you can do simple statistics.

Will you be hit 3 times in a row?
dodge formula %
20 0.80^3 51
25 0.75^3 42
30 0.70^3 34

So when you further assume that each hit will take 1 second you see that with high dodge value you give yout tank 4 seconds to regain aggro or your healer to allow another hit.

You cannot only see the usefulness for one hit.
I can't think of ANY BT or Hyjal boss that wouldn't finish me in one hit. Not one. Or maybe Reliquary phase 1 and 2, but those are special cases. A BT boss in general will hit mail for a 5 digit number. Trust me, I've pulled on most of the bosses now I think, except Shahraz and they've all oneshotted me with 12k or so hits.

Not to mention the fairly high chance a boss has to crush or crit me...
#4409SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Celetroll
I´ll quote myself for the last time. If you dont want to add to that particular case of T6 vs alternate gear choices wheres dodge comes into play, dont bother to reply. Please. Also please notice that AEP values are calculated by the same crit-rating-higher than agi statvalues. I am not putting higher AEP value on agility than on critrating.

Cele wrote: "So going full T6 you would loose 97,6 passive AEP or only 27,6 if T6 set bonus is in effect. This might sound a rather minor dps loss, you might even consider that irrelevant compared to INT or mp5 gained or "full T6" braging value... BUT you would also loose 5,82% dodge. "

5,82% dodge vs 27,6 AEP. Worth of not, your choice. And no, nobody at that gear level pulls aggro off the tank at bossfights and hopes for a dodge. Its trash or special moves we are talking - cleave at worst case; dodge on soulshard at Archimonde, a ghoul raping healer in MH that I do frostshock and shout to vent for nearest tank assistance, whirlwinding swords in BT trashpacks etc etc. For the times something goes wrong. For the times bit of wrong triggering a snwoballeffect can be dodged. So, IMO, in close to nonexistant AEP values critrating or agility for the sake of dodge comes into consideration. Dont try to read out from it more than there is.
#4410SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stigmata
Originally Posted by Celetroll
I´ll quote myself for the last time. If you dont want to add to that particular case of T6 vs alternate gear choices wheres dodge comes into play, dont bother to reply. Please. Also please notice that AEP values are calculated by the same crit-rating-higher than agi statvalues. I am not putting higher AEP value on agility than on critrating.

Cele wrote: "So going full T6 you would loose 97,6 passive AEP or only 27,6 if T6 set bonus is in effect. This might sound a rather minor dps loss, you might even consider that irrelevant compared to INT or mp5 gained or "full T6" braging value... BUT you would also loose 5,82% dodge. "

5,82% dodge vs 27,6 AEP. Worth of not, your choice. And no, nobody at that gear level pulls aggro off the tank at bossfights and hopes for a dodge. Its trash or special moves we are talking - cleave at worst case; dodge on soulshard at Archimonde, a ghoul raping healer in MH that I do frostshock and shout to vent for nearest tank assistance, whirlwinding swords in BT trashpacks etc etc. For the times something goes wrong. For the times bit of wrong triggering a snwoballeffect can be dodged. So, IMO, in close to nonexistant AEP values critrating or agility for the sake of dodge comes into consideration. Dont try to read out from it more than there is.
I dont agree, ghouls shouldnt be hitting healers, and even if they are, anyone can tank them. I think we have 1 squishy cloth healer in the entire guild (priest) rest are all capable of tanking multiple if it came to it. (shaman 10k armor, pala 15k armor and druid can jump to bear form.

I dont recall a single boss fight hyjal or BT where you can get cleaved? unless your a complete tard and attack from the front.

You dont need dodge, trash packs are meh, chain healing shaman will always be enough to keep a raid healed on any trash.

The only boss fight that EVER hits me is Supremus when he decides to target me in melee range in between switching targets (why does he do that still?) and even that only does 10.8k max so without dodge I still survive.
#4411SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
Originally Posted by Illundai
I can't think of ANY BT or Hyjal boss that wouldn't finish me in one hit. Not one. Or maybe Reliquary phase 1 and 2, but those are special cases. A BT boss in general will hit mail for a 5 digit number. Trust me, I've pulled on most of the bosses now I think, except Shahraz and they've all oneshotted me with 12k or so hits.

Not to mention the fairly high chance a boss has to crush or crit me...
Ok thats a fact i didn't know.
Since my shaman is my main character and lvl 41 I simply made totally wrong assumptions.
So I will be quiet now and read to make better statements with higher levels and thats why more seen bosses.
#4412SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by pilger81
I absolutely agree to the OP and the first 50 sites of discussion that Offhand has to be slower but why are most people stickied to 2.6 and 2.7 weapons?
Those are the slowest speeds available in the game for 1 hand weapons. Its not just that the OH needs to be slow, its that both weapons need to be slow to maximize the damage done by instants.

Regarding the AEP discussion on the previous page - the 'baseline' AEP values that everything in the OP uses were done off of a very well rounded AP/Crit/Hit scenario, it would sort of be the "ideal" T5 stats if such gear existed. (It doesn't) So its not unreasonable that you would see different values below or above that. On the other hand, I'm just now beginning to leave T5 content so I'm starting to calculate my own AEP using the sim, and my values are not terribly far off from the baseline ones. So the generic, baseline AEP do have enough merit to be used.

Last edited by Malan : 10/31/07 at 9:56 AM.
#4413SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Vareyn
One factor I think you are missing is that the extra white attacks provided by expertise rating would not be criting. This would already be taken into account for the AEP of hit rating. However the extra attacks resulting for your yellow attacks would have the potential to crit.
This isn't true based on our understanding of hit tables. Expertise will likely work identically to Hit, in that it simply removes the chance to dodge (or miss in the case of hit), and the remainder of the hit table is filled in with normal hits. Any attack that would have been a dodge but was not thanks to Expertise will be a normal hit.
#4414SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
I don't know about that Nite.

If yellow damage is a two roll event, like expected, then it seems to me that a dodge could be convereted into a crit. Please ignore this if it has been proven that yellow damage is on a one roll system. The last time I looked at the two roll theorycrafting was over a month ago.

Incidentally, the other reason expertise is better for yellow damage than hit is for white damage is that yellow damage attacks proc flurry, but don't consume charges, whereas white hits will do both. More expertise = a (very minor) increase in flurry uptime, even for the same crit rating.

EDIT:
Actually, since we're on the expertise topic, can't we now verify the two roll theory or not, once and for all, using expertise items as the way to change that variable?

For instance, in my Disquette - WWS parse, you see only a 3% less crit rate on my yellow attacks than my white attacks. I'm inclined this is due to my 2% less chance to dodge from my expertise rating (done on the test realm of course).

If I took off my expertise gear, I wonder if this would go back to the 5% that we're used to. This, incidentally, was the original reason I went to test on those twilight serpents a month ago. I changed the purpose recently to get better FT/WF numbers, but this same test could be used for the two roll monitoring purpose...

Last edited by Disquette : 10/31/07 at 10:24 AM.
#4415SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jerem
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
This isn't true based on our understanding of hit tables. Expertise will likely work identically to Hit, in that it simply removes the chance to dodge (or miss in the case of hit), and the remainder of the hit table is filled in with normal hits. Any attack that would have been a dodge but was not thanks to Expertise will be a normal hit.
I never really looked at Expertise like this.
(I never really looked at it AT ALL, to be honest).

So, if I understand correctly, any one of your swings will result in one of the followings :
- Normal Hit
- Miss (number can be decreased by +hit)
- Dodge (number can be decreased by +expertise)
- Parry (number can be decreased/cancelled by positionning)
- Crit (number can be increased by +crit/+agi)

Right ?
#4416SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by pilger81
I have to ask for one clearification on Windfury.
( I can really most of you see heavy breathing now ... )

I absolutely agree to the OP and the first 50 sites of discussion that Offhand has to be slower but why are most people stickied to 2.6 and 2.7 weapons?

Is it only because they want to avoid the 1.4-1.5 dps gap or are their further reasons?

Is there anyone which has done dps testing ala

Weaponspeed | assumed weapondps | resulting dps |

to verify these speed?

I read first 50 sites day before yesterday and perhaps I only oversaw it but the logical reason is not clear to me.

Thank you in advance for answering
PS: If there are strange constructs in Speech please be patient with a German.
By using slower weapons...

1) you are statistically more likely to avoid the WF cooldown on a higher % of swings not only by the hand that proc'd it, but also by having a higher average delay until the swing of the other hand.

2) you stormstrike for more damage.

3) you have a higher flurry uptime.

The biggest part is number 1.
#4417SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Jerem
I never really looked at Expertise like this.
(I never really looked at it AT ALL, to be honest).

So, if I understand correctly, any one of your swings will result in one of the followings :
- Normal Hit
- Miss (number can be decreased by +hit)
- Dodge (number can be decreased by +expertise)
- Parry (number can be decreased/cancelled by positionning)
- Crit (number can be increased by +crit/+agi)

Right ?
Correct, other than your Parry line should say can be decreased by Expertise or canceled by positioning. Hit will fill whatever is left of the table after all dodges, misses, parries and crits have been accounted for when attacking an NPC. Glancing blows are in there too and are lowest priority.
#4418SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
Originally Posted by Disquette
By using slower weapons...

1) you are statistically more likely to avoid the WF cooldown on a higher % of swings not only by the hand that proc'd it, but also by having a higher average delay until the swing of the other hand.

2) you stormstrike for more damage.

3) you have a higher flurry uptime.

The biggest part is number 1.
Now, see you say it, it is really obvious...
But thank you for make it clear to me.

So I am totally convinced now and we can forget this question.
I was confused because we choose slow weapons an than give a high rating to haste.
So haste have to be looked at suspiciously since it affects point 1 too.
You don't have to answer here when this was already discussed here because i will read from page 50 - 150 the next days and don't want you to double your affords without sense.
#4419SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Generally speaking, the gains you get in white damage from +haste will offset any potentially lost WF procs as long as you're using slow weapons.
#4420SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Zealoz
SS Debuff

First time poster, long time reader. My question is about the SS debuff, the tooltip says the next 2 Nature attacks receive a 20% damage bonus. Does this apply to only my Nature attacks IE ES?? Or does the Elemental Shaman in my raid chain casting lightning bolt also benefit from this debuff similar to CoE, Scorch debuff from locks and Mages?
#4421SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
SS is a debuff and so can be consumed by anyone in the raid.
#4422SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by pembosa
For example, let's say my DPS output is 1000 on average when counting all buffs/procs.

If I increase my AP by 24, my dps will increase by ~3.15dps (DW), which is a 3.15/1000 = 0.315% dps increase.
Your DPS will be more likely to increase by ~6.
However, if I instead choose to increase my Agility by 12, my dps will increase by my crit chance increase: 0.48%.

As the amount of AP I have increases, the % increase in dps AP gives me decreases while the % increase in dps Agility gives me remains constant.
Not at all true.
Suppose you have that 1000 DPS with 0% crit. Now suppose you gain a 1% chance to crit, from ~24 Agi or crit rating. Your damage now becomes
DPStotal = DPShit + DPScrit
DPStotal = 0.99*1000 + 2*0.1*1000
DPStotal = 990 + 20 = 1010
You gained (1010-1000)/1000 = 1% damage.

Now, suppose you had 50% crit.
Your damage would have been
DPStotal = 0.5*1000 + 2*0.5*1000
DPStotal = 1500
Gain 1% crit again from ~24 agi or crit rating
DPStotal = 0.49*1000 + 2*0.51*1000
DPStotal = 1510
You gained (1510-1500)/1500 = 0.667% damage.
Is my thinking flawed?
As the math above shows, yes.
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Well, it looks like your calculations about RED are totally wrong because your crit percentage is calculated like most people do, ie not the way it really works inside an attack table.
That's true, but pretend we are talking about yellow attacks or just making a simplification.

Last edited by Rob : 10/31/07 at 2:01 PM.
#4423SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mox
Originally Posted by Celetroll
Edit: 20% dodge saves you from random cleaves, hits and trashaggro you will encounter lot more in MH trashpacks than in ssc/TK.
I've cleared all content and my 20% dodge has NEVER saved me from any of those, the hyjal trash isn't an issue, and cleaves.. well if you get hit you're in the wrong position anyway.

In a raid situation, dodge is not useful at all. For soloing and pvp.. yeah, but not raiding especially at end game level.
#4424SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Well, there are certainly certain 25-man fights where dodging can be useful. Magtheridon if you get unluckily bounced towards him during an earthquake, Lurker (adds cleave), Leotheras (you should never get hit by WW but if you do it's nice to get lucky and dodge), Vashj (adds cleave), Kael'thas (in case you screw up on kiting Darkener or pull aggro on the first weapon you're DPSing). I am not yet attuned for MH/BT so I'll have to defer to others there, but the bottom line of all of these examples is that dodge makes it slightly less likely for you to get one-shot when you screw up. That's why I have 2 points in Anticipation instead of Imp Lightning Shield or something, but it's also not a reason to value Agility greater than Crit in an AEP formula.

Why? Because it's each individual shaman's judgement call what that's worth -- 1% dodge can't be directly converted into increased DPS and so there's no way for us to pin a good value on it, just like the STA or MP5 we don't value on gear. Bottom line, sure, pick out pieces that have STA, MP5, and/or AGI instead of CRIT, but only after you've run the AEP numbers with pure DPS in mind -- don't try to have an equation make a judgement call, it's not good at doing that.
#4425SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Just about everything in Hyjal is snarable. If I pull hate I frost shock stuff and run around until a tank picks it up, same deal if I see mobs going for healers, it's pretty easy to yank them off of them. There are some things that are just inevitable to tank in Hyjal like Banshees, Necromancers, and sometimes Felstalkers, but they hit incredibly weak and most of their damage is magical anyway.

As far as BT, the trash hits a bit harder and you can't really snare and run away. I switch to(omg!) a shield if/when I pull hate due to me being lazy or the tanks being lazy. 6336 extra ac can usually keep me up through most things until it dies or a tank gets it back except for the "bigger" mobs(Meteor guys before Gurtogg, Demons before Supremus, Skeleton things, I'm sure there are a few more).

As far as bosses.. dodge can help for Gurtogg should you get Fel Raged. There is also Souls p1 as mentioned before, but I only jump in there if I really need to. I can't think of anything in Hyjal except maybe dodging soul charges if people suck at the game and die to fall damage/doomfires on Archimonde.
#4426SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
This whole agility versus crit rating is superfluous.

One side is arguing AEP values - the other side is arguing survivability. It's two separate arguments.

Nowhere in this thread are armor, agility, stamina or resistances given any weighting in the AEP system. I think this is fine, we're determining how to maximize raid-level, against-bosses-only DPS.

Why is Rapparee going to take the skyshatter legs over the bow-stitched leggings?

They have 40 freaking more stamina. (the bow-stitched have 2 more sockets one of which i'd put 7 stamina+5str in... still that gives the t6 33 stam. bonus) In my particular raiding circumstances, I need more life than a shaman in a perfect raid with ulitmate healers. I like my healers they're good people, but they aren't perfect. Some people do have perfect healers, which makes me every so slightly jealous.

Why does Rapparee not care about agility vs. crit rating? Because I personally don't care about dying to BT trash, oh well i'll have to use the repair-guy after next wipe. No single trash monster in Hyjal can kill me in under 4 seconds. My healers may not be perfection but they aren't 4seconds slow either.

Also any of my healers reading this. I'm not perfection either, otherwise I'd never fall for that sneaky doomfire's tricks.

Also to reply to Skiace.... My values indicate that at my current gearing agility is worth more than strength... just barely. It's all dependant on the gear you are currently wearing and the buffs you can expect while raiding.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/31/07 at 4:10 PM.
#4427SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Also to reply to Skiace.... My values indicate that at my current gearing agility is worth more than strength... just barely. It's all dependant on the gear you are currently wearing and the buffs you can expect while raiding.
I know it's gear dependent, that's not my point. My point is, I've seen a lot of people's stat weightings, and they all seem to trend between the "entry level" listed in the OP and the BT/hyjal level where crit/agi etc are all 2+. My gear is a full tier above the entry level, yet my crit/agi numbers are significantly lower than the entry level ones. This confuses me.
#4428SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Skiace
I know it's gear dependent, that's not my point.
That is entirely the point of the AEP system.

The gear you currently wear, the buffs you currently expect to have influence just how important crit rating and agility are.

If you want to know why your values are different from someone else, then look at the gear you wear and compare it to the gear they wear. If every single item is the same, enchanted the same, and you use the same talents and raid with the same buffs, but still get different AEP values, then one or both of you have mis-calculated your AEP values.


The best way to use the AEP system is to evaluate the next piece of gear that drops against the one you wear in that slot.

Does the shoulder that just dropped have a higher AEP than my current shoulder? (for example)

Once you get one or two new pieces, you need to recalculate all of your AEP values.
#4429SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Rapparee
That is entirely the point of the AEP system.

The gear you currently wear, the buffs you currently expect to have influence just how important crit rating and agility are.

If you want to know why your values are different from someone else, then look at the gear you wear and compare it to the gear they wear. If every single item is the same, enchanted the same, and you use the same talents and raid with the same buffs, but still get different AEP values, then one or both of you have mis-calculated your AEP values.


The best way to use the AEP system is to evaluate the next piece of gear that drops against the one you wear in that slot.

Does the shoulder that just dropped have a higher AEP than my current shoulder? (for example)

Once you get one or two new pieces, you need to recalculate all of your AEP values.
I feel like you're either completely missing what I'm trying to say, or just disregarding it. It is not enough for me to simply say "well, I plugged my gear into the sim and it gave me these AEP, so that's that." I want to understand why it spit out values that seem so different from the trend. "Your gear is different, so your aep values are different," isn't an explanation.

As a small test, I ran the sim with my gear -5% hit, because I have a lot of hit for my level and wanted to see if that was the culprit. The results were higher values for crit/agi, which seems to imply that my increased hit actually devalues further crit. This doesn't make sense to me either, particularly if yellow attacks are a two-roll system as (i think) the current theory claims. It also means that were I to follow the aep values every time i get a gear upgrade, agi/crit would continue to go down relative to hit/ap, and I'd end up stacking hit, which doesn't jive at all with the experiences of everyone else in this thread.

edit: running it some more with my current gear, I'm now getting more reasonable values. I have no clue what's different, perhaps the sim has changed since I last ran all these test.

Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 5:11 PM.
#4430SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Hamilburg
Make sure you're inputting the values that the sim expects:

AP should be without any buffs other than kings.
I forget off the top of my head if hit should or shouldn't have the contribution from talents added in (I believe it does).

I know I got wonky results when I put in my raidbuffed AP rather than my unbuffed tooltip AP.
#4431SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
If you want to know why one value goes down when another value goes up, then read every page in this thread. All the formulas are derived from theorized systems of how the game calculates your damage.

Let me ask you, what will you do with the information?
If I said to you, that AP and crit follow an inverse relationship where every 10 AP increase results in a -0.04 AEP valuation of crit, what would you do differently?


Edit: name of boot, AEP using entry level, AEP using Skiace's numbers.
Boots of Utter Darkness 159.86 150.78
Cobra-Lash Boots 155.42 149.15
Star-Strider Boots 155.42 149.15
Boots of the Crimson Hawk 144.15 131.8
Boots of Effortless Striking 131.08 123.1
Boots of Natural Grace 130 126.74

If you look at the numbers both sets of AEP rank the best boots for you in the same order. The last 3 boots are ones you shouldn't even bother getting, while any of the first 3 are pretty good for you.
So even if you think your numbers are goofball values, it ended up not mattering when it comes time to choose your boots in SSC/Eye.

Last edited by Rapparee : 10/31/07 at 5:25 PM. Reason: added some example numbers:
#4432SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
Skiace, can you please post a screenshot of your input screens on the sim (or type them all out)?
#4433SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Disquette
Skiace, can you please post a screenshot of your input screens on the sim (or type them all out)?
This was the last quick run with current stats, (old belt) though the inputs are the same as the 5x10,000 that I did a week ago.



Procs:
MH-WF/dragonstrike
OH-WF/Mongoose
Hourglass
RED

Buffs:
Kings (but base stats are without unfortunately)
MotW
LotP
Major Agi elixer
SoE
Battle Shout
STR food

Last edited by Skiace : 10/31/07 at 6:27 PM.
#4434SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
Originally Posted by Rob
Suppose you have that 1000 DPS with 0% crit. Now suppose you gain a 1% chance to crit, from ~24 Agi or crit rating. Your damage now becomes
DPStotal = DPShit + DPScrit
DPStotal = 0.99*1000 + 2*0.1*1000
DPStotal = 990 + 20 = 1010
You gained (1010-1000)/1000 = 1% damage.

Now, suppose you had 50% crit.
Your damage would have been
DPStotal = 0.5*1000 + 2*0.5*1000
DPStotal = 1500
Gain 1% crit again from ~24 agi or crit rating
DPStotal = 0.49*1000 + 2*0.51*1000
DPStotal = 1510
You gained (1510-1500)/1500 = 0.667% damage.
Thanks for the responses, that's helped me sort this out in my head a bit better.

Now another question. If you're a newb shaman who's just stumbled across this thread and you now see that all your weapon/stat choices to date are suboptimal, what would you do to correct the situation and in what order?

Of course I'm talking about myself:
  1. I've valued hit % and crit % equally.
  2. My off hand is the a Merciless Gladiator off hand with a 1.50 attack speed (which sounds like a waste of arena points now that I've read this thread).
  3. I've three possible main hand weapons: 1.40, 1.50 and 2.40 speed (feltooh eviscerator, emerald ripper, and big bad wolf's paw, respectively).
  4. I use rockbiter on my offhand (*gasp*).
  5. I've focussed on Agility and hit rating for my gem slots rather than strength.

So, do these numbers/weights only really apply once I've gotten myself a decent 2.4-2.6 speed offhand weapon or is there an order to how I'd get myself back on the "right" path.

I'm not necessarily looking for specific advice that'd only be valuable to myself, but rather more general advice to any newb shaman who's doing things "wrong" but want's to do things "right".

I guess my thought process is sort of like this: Okay, I've fallen off the wagon. What's the 10-step process for getting back on again?
#4435SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
Absolute first thing to do: get appropriate speed weapons (2.6/2.6 greens if you need to) and put WF5/WF5 on both. This should be doable in 5 minutes of searching the auction house or a few days of heroic running/honor grinding.

Next thing to do, if you have the money: resocket all your gems. Consider this: a 6 strength gem is worth more AEP with the starting AEP values (without Kings) than an 8 hit gem, so if you've got 8 hit gems replace those with 6 strength gems at the -very- least.

Next thing to do: chances are, if you're gearing yourself improperly, you're not taking full advantage of all the revered+ rep rewards and crafted items. For example, there are some blue leather shoulders from Kurenai revered that are pretty freakin' amazing till you can upgrade them with t4/leather Kara shoulders, and I'd venture a guess that most "newbie" enhancement shamans don't know about them.

Edit: [Blackened Leather Spaulders]
They're an upgrade for you, too, now that I've checked out your armory. Also, Kaliban's Class Gear Planner is a useful site for finding gear though there is no option for having it choose leather gear.

Last edited by Xoya : 10/31/07 at 7:35 PM.
#4436SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Myul
Hit and Crit can be equally for personal aep values, you should just check Yo's sim (or another one, linked in the beginning post).

Steps:
1. Read through posting #1 over and over again, print it and learn to love it.
2. Get everything enchanted properly.
3. Regem your gear to [Bold Living Ruby] for red sockets, [Sovereign Nightseye] for blue sockets and [Inscribed Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets.
4. Farm mats for [Runic Hammer].
5. Get an arena 5on5 (leecher) team and run with it for 6-7 weeks and receive your [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] or [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot.
7. Get another MG Weapon.
8. Become #1 in epeen meters.
9. ????
10. You are beloved, rich and famous now.

Edit: You can buy 2 very (2.8 speed) slow weapons in Netherstorm (Stormspire or Eco-Dome.., can't remember exatly) and run some tests versus the blasted lands mobs and compare it to you gear, especially the offhand could be better for the moment. [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] isn't that bad and should do it for the moment.
Note: BBWP and [The Decapitator] will become one-hand weapons with the next patch, so don't throw them away!
#4437SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
Originally Posted by Xoya
Absolute first thing to do: get appropriate speed weapons (2.6/2.6 greens if you need to) and put WF5/WF5 on both. This should be doable in 5 minutes of searching the auction house or a few days of heroic running/honor grinding.

Next thing to do, if you have the money: resocket all your gems. Consider this: a 6 strength gem is worth more AEP with the starting AEP values (without Kings) than an 8 hit gem, so if you've got 8 hit gems replace those with 6 strength gems at the -very- least.

Next thing to do: chances are, if you're gearing yourself improperly, you're not taking full advantage of all the revered+ rep rewards and crafted items. For example, there are some blue leather shoulders from Kurenai revered that are pretty freakin' amazing till you can upgrade them with t4/leather Kara shoulders, and I'd venture a guess that most "newbie" enhancement shamans don't know about them.

Edit: [Blackened Leather Spaulders]

They're an upgrade for you, too, now that I've checked out your armory.
It's hard to swallow that I should replace an epic with a rare, but I see what you mean. If I *really* want to do the most DPS that's what I gotta do. Is a 2.5 main hand good enough or is 2.6 a must have?
#4438SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Xoya
Originally Posted by pembosa
It's hard to swallow that I should replace an epic with a rare, but I see what you mean. If I *really* want to do the most DPS that's what I gotta do. Is a 2.5 main hand good enough or is 2.6 a must have?
2.5 is perfectly fine till you can pick up a 2.6 with higher DPS. The extra dps on the mainhand will compensate for the lack of slower speed in this case if you pick up one of those 2.6/2.7 offhands.
#4439SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pembosa
Originally Posted by Myul
Hit and Crit can be equally for personal aep values, you should just check Yo's sim (or another one, linked in the beginning post).

Steps:
1. Read through posting #1 over and over again, print it and learn to love it.
2. Get everything enchanted properly.
3. Regem your gear to [Bold Living Ruby] for red sockets, [Sovereign Nightseye] for blue sockets and [Inscribed Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets.
4. Farm mats for [Runic Hammer].
5. Get an arena 5on5 (leecher) team and run with it for 6-7 weeks and receive your [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] or [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot.
7. Get another MG Weapon.
8. Become #1 in epeen meters.
9. ????
10. You are beloved, rich and famous now.

Edit: You can buy 2 very (2.8 speed) slow weapons in Netherstorm (Stormspire or Eco-Dome.., can't remember exatly) and run some tests versus the blasted lands mobs and compare it to you gear, especially the offhand could be better for the moment. [Big Bad Wolf's Paw] isn't that bad and should do it for the moment.
Note: BBWP and [The Decapitator] will become one-hand weapons with the next patch, so don't throw them away!
I just wish I'd have read this last week, we ran Kara over the weekend and I passed on both [Fool's Bane] ( to a rogue) *and* [The Decapitator] (to a fury warrior). *slap head*
#4440SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Skiace - you need to run the sim more than once. Shaman DPS is streaky and prone to silly luck driven RNG inflation/deflation of numbers. Run it 5-6 times. See if any of the AEP are outliers. Discard the outliers, average the ones that are pretty close in value, and use those.

As an example I did exactly this today. (While at work... supposedly while doing "work") I ran the sim 5 times at 1000 hours and got some pretty crazy outliers for a few values. Then I ran it 5 more times at 5000 hours each and got 4 sets that were very close to the 1000 hours numbers, so I took those 4 and averaged them. My very first run of the sim was a huge outlier though, it had some really wonky values.

Originally Posted by Skiace
Buffs:
Kings (but base stats are without unfortunately)
Ok, bad. Don't do that. Yo added a Q/A that addresses this issue - if you put kings, the sim expects your crit and AP values to already include the extra 10%, the sim has no way to do that for you. Your values may look odd because of this.

I'd also add that you really need to keep in mind that the "baseline" AEP stats were generated from a model that had around 2500 AP, 30% Crit, some value of Hit that I can't remember. Your stats aren't exactly there, so you're going to differ.

Last edited by Malan : 10/31/07 at 10:52 PM.
#4441SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Well, it looks like your calculations about RED are totally wrong because your crit percentage is calculated like most people do, ie not the way it really works inside an attack table.

I'm cureently having ~30% crit unbuffed, let's say my average crit rating in raid situation is 40% (pretty easy to reach with kings, MotW, the feral aura and double mongoose enchant.... if i drop GoA i have more than 50% when the two mongooose proc, yes i'm a crit lover )

So my attack table on a boss looks like this :

13,3% miss
5,6% dodge
25% glancing blows
16,1% regular hit
40% crit

To simplify things, if I assume a regular white hit to be 100 damage, we have :

16,1% * 100 = 16,1 dps from hit damage
25% * 0.7 * 100 = 17,5 dps from glancing blows
40% * 2 * 100 = 80 dps from crits

so 113,6 dps, with a very significant part coming from crits

now if i have add the RED effect, crits will do

40% * 2 * 1.03 * 100 = 82,4 dps

This leads to a total of 116 dps with RED.

116/113,4 = 1,021 so the RED is a 2,1 % dps increase in my situation
Sigh, you're right about that, I forgot to account for misses and dodges. The actual equation should be:

FinalDPS = (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2 * REDmultiplier) + [1 - (CritRate + DodgeRate + MissRate + ParryRate) ] * OriginalDPS
And once you have your OriginalDPS, instead of just multiplying by CritRate, you use the equation:

DPSwithCrits = (CritRate * OriginalDPS * 2) + [1 - (CritRate + DodgeRate + MissRate + ParryRate) ] * OriginalDPS
Then:

FinalDps - DPSwithCrits = RED contribution
The less crit you have, relative to hit and expertise, the less DPS contribution from RED. My earlier calculations show the value of RED if you never get a miss, dodge, or parry, making the values calculated for 1000 physical DPS with 30% crit rate (7 or 13.5 DPS) the minimum value of a RED.
#4442SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Malan
Skiace - you need to run the sim more than once. Shaman DPS is streaky and prone to silly luck driven RNG inflation/deflation of numbers. Run it 5-6 times. See if any of the AEP are outliers. Discard the outliers, average the ones that are pretty close in value, and use those.

As an example I did exactly this today. (While at work... supposedly while doing "work") I ran the sim 5 times at 1000 hours and got some pretty crazy outliers for a few values. Then I ran it 5 more times at 5000 hours each and got 4 sets that were very close to the 1000 hours numbers, so I took those 4 and averaged them. My very first run of the sim was a huge outlier though, it had some really wonky values.


Ok, bad. Don't do that. Yo added a Q/A that addresses this issue - if you put kings, the sim expects your crit and AP values to already include the extra 10%, the sim has no way to do that for you. Your values may look odd because of this.

I'd also add that you really need to keep in mind that the "baseline" AEP stats were generated from a model that had around 2500 AP, 30% Crit, some value of Hit that I can't remember. Your stats aren't exactly there, so you're going to differ.
As I mentioned in the first post, the "oddball" values came from an average of 5 tests at 10,000 each. The screenshot is just to show what I was inputing.

I know the kings issue is bad, so that could be the issue (though it would surprise me).

As for the baseline stats compared to mine, I have a around 2700ap/32% crit raid buffed; I was under the impression that the sim values are to be unbuffed (except kings).


edit: Running another 5 tests at 4000 without kings. If I get more typical numbers I'll just forget about it.

edit2: Results below


Last edited by Skiace : 11/01/07 at 1:25 AM.
#4443SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Jerem
I never really looked at Expertise like this.
(I never really looked at it AT ALL, to be honest).

So, if I understand correctly, any one of your swings will result in one of the followings :
- Normal Hit
- Miss (number can be decreased by +hit)
- Dodge (number can be decreased by +expertise)
- Parry (number can be decreased/cancelled by positionning)
- Crit (number can be increased by +crit/+agi)

Right ?
You forgot:

Block
Glancing Blow

And it is in a specific order, namely:

Miss
Dodge
Parry
Glancing Blow (only players and pets versus mobs)
Block
Critical
ordinary hit

This of course is for white damage, as the aforementioned 2 roll system may or may not exist for yellow damage.
#4444SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Ok, I have this weird conflict. Using the weapon AEP scoring system...

Netherbane gives Total OH AEP = 447.05

Yet my newly acquired Rising Tide gives Total OH AEP = 444.14


So...does this mean that I should just clearly continue using Netherbane over Rising Tide?
#4445SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Originally Posted by Myul
6. Farm as much [Badge of Justice] (200 possible) for patch 2.3 and the new loot.
Why just 200? Based on what I see, it's 315 for me for ENH upgrades, not to mention close to the same amount in Resto and Elemental upgrades as well.

Last edited by Mengus : 11/01/07 at 3:17 AM.
#4446SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Kyrious
200 is the current cap for badges per stack. I assume it's the global cap

Last edited by Kyrious : 11/01/07 at 5:30 AM. Reason: lolresearch
#4447SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
WF and Hit

Originally Posted by Ghando
Might be worthwhile to dispel some common misconceptions and set in stone a couple things, such as:
--Windfury Weapon suffers neither from the OH 50% penalty for OH procs, nor the dual-wield 24% miss rate. This means that (assuming identical weapons), MH and OH procs are identical.
i DO understand that "you can not crit when you miss" is FALSE (atack table)

but i DO NOT understand why WF does not suffer the miss rate. You can get WF when you miss ?
I doubt that , when i was at 62lvl i start to skill 2h axe (blood furnace drop). I had about 170 2h axe rating so i had a LOT of misses , i didnt get any WF proc at the miss hit.
#4448SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
This was answered somewhere on the last page or 2... Sigh.

Anyway, no Windfury can't proc off a miss. But due to the Windfury mechanics and procrate you'll never have Windfury on cooldown for longer than a few seconds. That's why Hit isn't THAT important.
#4449SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Nisall
He means the following (I think)

I know it won't happen due to talents, but lets say you have less than +9% hit. Since you aren't hit capped for special attacks it is possible the WF swings will miss eventhough the white swing that procced it hit. So he is saying is that WF is a special (yellow) attack and therefore only has a 9% hit cap instead of the 28% dualwield white miss chance.
#4450SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs.

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 6:55 AM.
#4451SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

Next, as it has been said many times, you spend a lot of time inside the WF cooldown, and so most of your miss happen during the cooldown. Increasing your hit rate will have an effect to your windfury procs indeed, but it will be a minimal one, in fact you will mostly increase your number of hits inside the cooldown without increasing your number of windfury procs.

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 7:55 AM.
#4452SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
Originally Posted by Illundai
This was answered somewhere on the last page or 2... Sigh.

Anyway, no Windfury can't proc off a miss. But due to the Windfury mechanics and procrate you'll never have Windfury on cooldown for longer than a few seconds. That's why Hit isn't THAT important.
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.
#4453SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Patonus
Ok, I have this weird conflict. Using the weapon AEP scoring system...

Netherbane gives Total OH AEP = 447.05

Yet my newly acquired Rising Tide gives Total OH AEP = 444.14


So...does this mean that I should just clearly continue using Netherbane over Rising Tide?
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
#4454SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3daveqstone
Originally Posted by LazyJoe

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).
First i was really confused , but thinking on it i know what you mean , but this CAN be right and CAN be wrong. No one can really say that with low hit rating you will miss during WF cooldown and hit during no WF cooldown.

Wait , that would be interessing adon. Can anyone do this ? Adon that will show how much % of attacks you miss while the WF cooldown is ON and how much % while is OFF
#4455SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by daveqstone
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.

What i want to say that in the Theorycraft is written that hit rating changes only 45-50% of our damage (white attacks , +9% hit from talents). I say hit rating also lowers the time between WF procs.
With high haste rating and crit chance this influence is very low , but without haste it has some kind of importance, becose i want my WF as often as possible.
Perhaps it would help us understand your point if you wrote a small "combat simulator", maybe in visual basic, maybe in java, your choice really, to mimic combat, taking into account such things. Then you could show us the actually affect of hit rating vis a vis windfury on dps, and we could look at numbers and results instead of just feelings.
#4456SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
Originally Posted by daveqstone
OK , now its more clear.

Hit maybe isnt THAT important , but with just +9% from talents you have base 17% miss rate. 21% agains a boss. At every fifth atack you have no chance WF proc , with low or none haste ratings it is a lot IMO.
Just to clear things up :

Against a same level opponent you have 6% miss, against a lvl 73 or boss it is 9%.

So when dual wielding it is 25% and 28% respectively (this has been discussed and proved some time ago in another thread).

So with 9% from talents you have 19% miss against a boss.


Anyway if you use Yo's simulator it doesn't speculate on the value of hit, it just simulates a (long) fight, so the benefit of hits in WF procs is already taken into account when the AEP is calculated. And all the results are showing hit is the less valuable stat for us (for example, 1% crit has generally the same AEP value as 1,5% to 2% hit).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 8:47 AM.
#4457SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
I'm questioning the use of this topic at the moment. More then half of the posts on the last 10+ (yes, I pulled this number out my ass but I'm sure more people here share the feelings) is from new posters comming here questioning our hit rating results or just being plain ignorant in general.

Maybe some special "stop annoying everyone with your feelings/questions about hit rating/etc" moderation might be needed for this topic?
#4458SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
First you never miss with stormstrike even with 0 +hit, which is a significant part of your total hits (around 16% with 2.6 weapons).

You may even say that increasing your hit decreases your WF proc rate but i personnally dislike this because it tends to confuse people when they see it, you don't reduce your number of windfury procs, but instead you increase your white hits (which leads to a smaller proc rate).
Stormstrike certainly can, and will, miss if you have 0 Hit, and it should generally be 10% of your DPS, not 16%, and its not dependent on the weapon speed. If you were using daggers I would expect the damage ratio to be 10% for SS same as with 2.6 weapons.

Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is. Increasing your hit changes the % of your total damage that WF will equate to, and that's all. The proc rate is, with some variation from the RNG, fairly constant.


The amount of absurd logic over the past 4 pages (2 days of posts) is astounding. And I agree with the poster above me. Stop bothering us with posts that say "well I feel like hit is more important." We don't care what you feel. If you don't want to accept the mathematics of the situation, or the simulated combat results that back up our findings, and even the empirical results from WWS parses, then don't. Go on your merry way, but stop posting about about it.

Last edited by Malan : 11/01/07 at 9:28 AM.
#4459SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
Well sorry i simplified a bit too much on this sentence

But well, if you only have the 9% hit from talent stormstrike never misses even on a boss, but still can be parried, dodged or blocked (as well as the normal hits).


The discussion is about hits proccing WF, so i was only taking into account the normal hits, not the windfury procs. If you consider hitting with always flurried 2.6 weapons (so 2.0 between hits) and no misses, SS is exactly 16,6666....% of your total hits (parries, dodges or blocks don't affect this because you have the same amount in white and yellow attacks). If you are not hit capped, SS is an even bigger part of your hits, it comes around 20% with ~100 hit.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that a significant part of our windfury are coming from stromstrike, and increasing hit will never ever increase those procs, this is one of the facts that makes hit less important for WF procs.


Originally Posted by Malan
Increasing your Hit does NOT reduce your WF "proc rate". Its going to be 36% when DW or 20% otherwise, no matter what your +hit is.
Sorry again, I was speaking about the global proc rate, I mean we all know that WF has a 20% or 36% proc rate on eligible hits, but the hidden cooldown and weapon speed, as well as your hit rating affect the real proc rate. We all know that using slow weapons leads to a better global proc rate. The same way, increasing your hit leads to a somewhat worse global proc rate because you will get more normal hits while gaining few WF procs.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/01/07 at 9:48 AM.
#4460SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krom[Fenris]
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?
#4461SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
There's no evidence that either hand affects the proc rate, so it really doesn't matter. You can put it on either hand.
#4462SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
AEP difference is pretty small only 3. And this whole weapon AEP is pretty new threory. I personally use 8.48 mh Wdps AEP and 4.24 oh Wdps AEP. If you use those Rising tide > Netherbane. But my suggest is put your Rising tide to mainhand then choose Merciless gladiator pummeler or Netherbane to OH. Then just wait/hope that Syphon of the Nathrezim drop.
Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!
#4463SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
#4464SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Kombinat
Generally accepted thinking is that an enhancement shaman's DPS is made up, in rough numbers, of about 40% both white damage and windfury, with shocks and stormstrike taking up the last 20%, 10% each.

Generally accepted spec is to include all the +hit talents, for 9% hit in total. This hit caps, and then some, both windfury and stormstrike. You'll still get blocks, glancings, etc, but no misses.

So, 50% as a rough number is hit capped without any more + hit from gear. Given the existence of the 3 second WF cooldown, +hit loses any real relevance. It doesn't scale as well as crit, and hitting more often isn't all that helpful if WF is on CD. Hit effects 40% of your dps, where crit and AP effect 90%.

(Figures mentioned in this post are rough, vague recollections based on my reading this thread front to back several times. Apologies for their lack of mathematical concreteness)

Last edited by Kombinat : 11/01/07 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Punctuation. I hate my OCD.
#4465SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai
Time to hand out moderation privileges to Malan just for this thread!

About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
Rob worked it out at some point in this thread I think, or maybe someone linked it from another thread, I forget which. I believe that the ballpark figure was that Mongoose and Executioner basically provide the same DPS increase.
#4466SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Yeah I saw that, figured maybe by now more people had run some tests on the PTR. Armor Penetration is nice I guess, but it's damn pretty seeying 50%+ crit on your character tab :P
#4467SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Katherine
Originally Posted by Illundai
About Executioner, I'm not convinced, does anyone have some math on it?
Search is your friend.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers
#4468SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Katherine
My bad, I was planning on asking for newer maths then those. As in maths from the latest PTR push, who knows whether Executioner not double stacking was intended or not.
#4469SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Originally Posted by Patonus
Thanks for responding! No one else did :-P

The issue I have with that is that the Merciless Weapon is ALSO more AEP than Rising Tide in the MH. Looks as if RT is worthless!
That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.
#4470SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I just did a quick calc of Rising Tide for MH and OH. MH shows it better than Arena S2 weapons at 978.2 AEP vs 962 AEP, OH shows it about even with Netherbane for the OH at 444.1 vs 447 AEP. Conclusion - if you have Rising Tide and Netherbane, use RT in the MH.
#4471SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's looking as though after 2.3 enchant setup will ideally be executioner/mongoose. Assuming an RT/syphon MH/OH combo, would you put the executioner on the MH?

I would put mongoose on your MH, executioner on OH. This is solely for the reason that if you have to put on a shield, you want your wep in the Mh to have mongoose as it gives a slight bit more survivability then executioner.
#4472SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Patonus
Originally Posted by drats
That can't be correct. Rising tide has higher dps and top end dmg than the MGC. Even without thinking about SS or WF, the MGC would need minimum 35 more AP to equal the RT in dps. The reality is it's probably more.

AEP is a guideline, not law. Please use common sense when making judgments about weapon upgrades.
Please look at the weapons before stating wrong information. Rising Tide only has a 313 High End dmg and MGP has 330.
#4473SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
No, he was right. Look up 2 posts where I did the calculations myself.
#4474SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Quite hard to define the real bonus of Executionner no ? As if i've understood well (and thinking of how armor works) the more you have armor penetration the more you hit harder, so with the coming of new items with armor penetration (in ZA and Arena) we would be able to have a good amount of passive armor penetration, dealing more damages when execuionner proc than someone without any passive armor penetration proccing it ? To my mind executionner can be definetely better than moongoose at some point of passive armor penetration
#4475SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
Actually, I goofed on the high end damage. RT has a higher bottom end dps (208 compared to MGC 177), but a lower top end (313 vs 330). I made the mistake of thinking a higher dps weapon of the same speed would have a higher bottom and top for damage. Sorry, common sense failed me that time.

But my point of weapon dps still stands, it would takes a decent amount of stats to make up for a 3 point dps difference for a MH. For an offhand the difference is less clear.
#4476SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
I have an off topic problem.

During today i arrived at page 60 reading the thread.
Is there any possibility to delete redundant posts?

There are a bunch of double questions(including mine from yesterday ) it is really annoying to read it.
But if I avoid reading it all there will be even more doubleposts.

To begin all posts I did the last days(including this one) could be deleted without loosing anything.
Make the post to 20 sites again....

I and i think most of us would appreciate this.
#4477SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3drats
I'm pretty sure all of this information will be transferred to a wiki at some point in the near future. Malan has hinted at it multiple times.

Edit: After reading the OP, you can probably just read the last 10-20 pages, then use the search feature to answer most questions.
#4478SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Boethius is getting some new EJ server stuff set up and then hopefully we'll see the wiki open soon. The wiki will need more fine tuning - I didn't just copy/paste, I took it as a good time to rewrite a lot of stuff and add better documentation. I stopped updating it a few weeks ago though when 2.3 changes started rolling in, it was too much work keeping 2 pages simultaneously updated that each use different formating tags.

Are there any major tidbits of info that I have not updated the OP with? I suppose a real FAQ section might at some point be ok for some of the more minor questions, but I think that for the most part every question you could ask can be reasonably inferred from the info available.
#4479SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Kyrious
200 is the current cap for badges per stack. I assume it's the global cap
While it's the cap per stack, there's no global cap afaik. It'd be (Unique X) in the tooltip.

I have 316 in my bank (;
#4480SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3pilger81
So then because I have another question after not found it with search function.
(i am sure it ws mentioned beforebut still i don't find it...)

My idea is that with every haste rating I will have to give +hit a higher rating?!
Say 50% is white damage.
With +haste only white damage will be raised so after that we'll have 55% white damage.
Do I have to give +hit a 10% higher rating then?

Any numbercrunching done for this problem yet?
#4481SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Don't try to manually adjust your stat weights, if thats what you mean.

But yes that's kind of the function between Haste and Hit - the more haste you get the more valuable the extra Hit Rating will become.
#4482SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Aximous
I noticed on ptr that expertise doesn't seem to scale the same way as hit rating between points and ratings. Hit rating is 15.8 rating=1% hit while according to the character sheet 5 expertise is 1 point of expertise wich is 0.25% dodge and parry reduction so 20 expertise rating would be 1% reduction in parry and dodge. I think that should twist the calculations a bit.

Proof screenshot:


This was the formula that Rob made
Expertise AEP = HIT AEP * (White % + Yellow %)/White %
If I'm correct then this should turn into something like this:
Expertise AEP = (HIT AEP * 15.8 )/20* (White % + Yellow %)/White %
Ignore this if I got wrong conclusion.

Last edited by Aximous : 11/01/07 at 5:49 PM.
#4483SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
As I understand it, 15.8 expertise rating = 4 expertise = -1% dodge. 10 expertise rating, in your example, is equivalent to 2.53 expertise, which is rounded down to 2 expertise. So you're right that there are some discrepancies (because expertise rounds) but multiplying by 15.8/20 isn't a correct way to deal with those.

Technically, you need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again, just to convert it into hit AEP. This gives us a really nasty problem, which is that expertise rating is not only non-linear in AEP, it's not even contiguous: a jump of one expertise rating may have 0 AEP (example: we go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating) while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have AEP equivalent to about 4/15.8*hit (we go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction).

The best way, IMO, to value items at this point, is to use the provided formula. Although, I'll admit I haven't considered the impact that crits/glances will have on that, but I don't think it's been conclusively proven the mechanic by which expertise works (i.e. are dodges converted to hits, or are dodges removed from the attack table? in the former scenario, crits/(crits+hits) decreases but in the latter scenario, crits/(crits+hits) remains constant.)

Last edited by Rob : 11/01/07 at 5:58 PM.
#4484SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Aximous
Why I multiplied it by 15.8/20 is because I thought that 20 rating turns into 1% but it seems I forgot about rounding
#4485SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Weem
Loot comparison spreadsheets

With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Files here: http://hosted.filefront.com/bemory23

There are four different spreadsheets. "Pre-raid" with default values from the first page for entry raid shaman. "Low Raid" with default values from the first page. "Mid Raid" with default values being my current values. "High Raid" with default values belonging to Sebudai's from one of his posts:

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .

Last edited by Weem : 11/03/07 at 6:02 PM. Reason: Fixed links again
#4486SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I have updated the section on Weapon Expertise with Rob's explanation above.

It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?

Weem, checking those out now, might include them in the OP. Did you include all the new 2.3 items?
#4487SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Thanks for your job Weem it's great ! i hope you'll add S3 Arena gear and other 2.3 items soon, 'cause i don't really understand how to add them by myself
#4488SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Weem
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
Thank for your effort.
Sockets
Blue Socket	
Red Socket	
Yellow Socket	
Meta Socket
This is how thottbot values sockets. Also you can treat weapon skill like expertise.
Thottbot dont count socket bonus like lootzor does but I prefer thottbot.
#4489SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Irukandji
Yo's Simulator

Great Thread - thanks

I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.

Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
#4490SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Glayde
Originally Posted by Weem
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .

I thought the thottbot item scoring lets you assign scores to sockets, I use the thottbot sorting to glance at gear by slot.
#4491SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Donjo
Originally Posted by Weem
With Lootzor not being updated and Thottbot's item sorting lacking due to not counting sockets, I've made use of my excess free time lately and made some spreadsheets which somewhat mimic them. I did so as I wanted to have a reference point for comparing future upgrades. I'm sharing it as I'm sure some of you are in the same boat.

I split it into pre-raid, low raid, mid raid and high raid. All you have to do is input your own AEP values on the first sheet and the "Items" sheet will update and give your AEP values for the items. There's no guarantees that its perfectly done and there's a chance I messed up somewhere along the line. There is some overlap so its possible to compare what you have now to what you may soon get in the next tier of raiding. Nonetheless, I'll fix any problems as I come across them.

Pre-raid, default values from the first page for entry raid shaman:
Pre-raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Low raid, default values from the first page:
Low_Raid_Loot_comparison.xls - FileFront.com

Mid raid, default values are my AEP:
Mid_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

High raid, default values are Sebudai's from one of his posts:
High_Raid_Loot_Comparison.xls - FileFront.com

All credit goes to this thread, I'm just a compiler of information. Hope its useful for you .
I really appreciate it Weem, is there any chance you could make a 10-Man and under edition though? Just including PvP Gear, Kara/ZA and heroics?
#4492SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He made one that says Pre-Raid right in that post.

Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
#4493SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Malan: I do have all the 2.3 items unless I accidentally missed an item (I wouldn't put it passed me to do so).

Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.

Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.

And Malan is right about Lootzor. It does work fine unless your item will have expertise, haste or ignore armor.
#4494SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bubbahoof
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.

Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
#4495SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Guys Lootzor works perfectly fine for everything until you're in T6 content. Yah the site isnt being updated but unless you need to view things with -Armor or Haste on it, it works fine.
With the introduction of Zul'aman, "until you're in T6 content" becomes "until you've cleared Karazhan" and so Lootzor is just a pretty weak tool overall at this point.
Originally Posted by Weem
Glayde/Pitbuller: I don't mess with Thottbot as I never liked the way it worked. The thing with sockets is second-hand knowledge. At one point I don't think it did include sockets which it seems is no longer the case.
I think the issue is/was inconsistency in including socket bonuses, and that it has bugged values for certain items (e.g. Skyshatter gloves score lower than Cataclysm somehow and the issue isn't with my scoring parameters). I'm using Thottbot, but with a firm eye towards "sanity checking" the numbers. I really wish Wowhead would integrate a tool like this, since everyone else seems to be getting it wrong somehow.

Last edited by Rob : 11/02/07 at 5:56 PM.
#4496SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
Originally Posted by Weem
Lorka: I hadn't intended to included the S3 items. However, upon further review they aren't too far off from what one would have going into Mid Raid content so I'll put them there.
Thanks if you do it altought i hope to see those items in high raid too, as compared to some pve items they can make a good alternative. Anyway don't bother if it's too much work i can work with two different sheets if i have to
#4497SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Bubbahoof
Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I have never been all that happy with Lootzor because it always puts BOP crafted items in the list which require a profession I don't have.

Is the link for the Mid Raid xls sheet posted by Weem working correctly? Whenever I try to use it, I get thrown back to the main filefront.com page. The low raid .xls link forks fine for me.
That was my fault. I re-uploaded the Mid Raid but failed to update the link. Should be working fine now.
#4498SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Irukandji
Great Thread - thanks

I am having trouble with getting Yo's Simulator to work. I have the latest edition of java installed and have tried it on both WinXP pro / KDE 3.5 in mozilla, ie, konqueror - but it was working for me a few weeks ago, is anyone else having a similar issue? I also get a small java popup window in the corner from it that links to a russian website - its not malware or anything on my computer, its definitely from the applet.

Sorry to pollute the thread, i just thought other people may be having the same issues.
Try closing down programs like WoW as well. I was unable to run the sim and wow at the same time until I upgraded to my core 2 duo.
#4499SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
#4500SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Oprahwinfury
Originally Posted by Malan
It seems I broke the Pawn string in the OP, I tried importing that last night and Pawn kept bitching that it didn't recognize it. Anyone see a glaring mistake?
I see a missing space.

( Pawn: v1: "AEP (Pater/Tornhoof)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetration=0.25 )

This should work
#4501SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Got a semi-off topic for you brainiacs with the Simulators. According to the entry post here, SS and WF are both not normalized. They are also on a 3 second cooldown. Would our DPS be better or worse if they removed the 3 second CD, but normalized the SS and Windfury attacks?
Well, it depends how they were normalized. If they were normalized at 1.0 weapon speed, they'd be better off as they are. If the were normalized like rogue weapon normalization (1.7 I think for daggers, 2.4 speed I think for other 1 handed weapons), it would probably be an increase in dps. I'm not sure though. It would also depend on whether or not the dual-wield 36% chance on hit to proc persisted.

If it were 36%, and right now we automatically give up at least one attack to the 3 second cooldown, I find it very unlikely that our dps would decrease in the system you suggest. Getting a rougly 33% bump in WF procs for an 8% decrease in attack damage (assuming a 2.6 weapon normalized to 2.4 speed) seems like a pretty good deal, even if stormstrike damage decreased with slower weapons.

I assume, by the way, that you would have to keep at least a 0.5 second cooldown, else we're back in the land of occasionally one shotting people with a quad proc off starting combat with MH, OH, MHSS, OHSS + WF_MHx2 + WF_OHx2. assuming a MH hit of 600 damage, OH of 300 damage, and 1/3 of the attacks critting, with each proc'ing WF (cause of no cooldown), that =

MH hit x 2 = 1200
OH hit x 2 = 600
MH WF x 4 = 3600 (approx, inc the WF ap bonus)
OH WF x 4 = 1800
subtotal = 7200
multiply by 1.33 for crits...
7200 x 1.33 = 9576

I don't think Blizzard would want that to exist in the game, even if that string would happen only 1.7% of the time. That's still one-shotting people on average once per every 2 BGs.
#4502SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Hell, they removed our downranking, I doubt they would remove the cooldown
#4503SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3lorka
After having understood how your sheets work Weem i agree S3 gear will better fit in the Mid-Raid one
#4504SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Disquette
Well, it depends how they were normalized. If they were normalized at 1.0 weapon speed, they'd be better off as they are. If the were normalized like rogue weapon normalization (1.7 I think for daggers, 2.4 speed I think for other 1 handed weapons), it would probably be an increase in dps. I'm not sure though. It would also depend on whether or not the dual-wield 36% chance on hit to proc persisted.

If it were 36%, and right now we automatically give up at least one attack to the 3 second cooldown, I find it very unlikely that our dps would decrease in the system you suggest. Getting a rougly 33% bump in WF procs for an 8% decrease in attack damage (assuming a 2.6 weapon normalized to 2.4 speed) seems like a pretty good deal, even if stormstrike damage decreased with slower weapons.

I assume, by the way, that you would have to keep at least a 0.5 second cooldown, else we're back in the land of occasionally one shotting people with a quad proc off starting combat with MH, OH, MHSS, OHSS + WF_MHx2 + WF_OHx2. assuming a MH hit of 600 damage, OH of 300 damage, and 1/3 of the attacks critting, with each proc'ing WF (cause of no cooldown), that =

MH hit x 2 = 1200
OH hit x 2 = 600
MH WF x 4 = 3600 (approx, inc the WF ap bonus)
OH WF x 4 = 1800
subtotal = 7200
multiply by 1.33 for crits...
7200 x 1.33 = 9576

I don't think Blizzard would want that to exist in the game, even if that string would happen only 1.7% of the time. That's still one-shotting people on average once per every 2 BGs.
Or about as often as Mages get a chance to do so with an AP PoM Pyro + Zerker buff :P

I made a post about this on the shaman forums. Internet hilarity ensued. Despite my attempts to link to everyone the proof that WF is indeed not normalized ATM, some silly shaman there insists it is. Oh well, I dont know why I even bothered :P
#4505SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Oprahwinfury
I see a missing space.
Thanks for the correction.
#4506SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
I still find it funny having a big interest in Holy Priests in PvP.

Nothing Beats doing a stormstrike with Matilda, Having WF proc (Average damge is always 6k) & then finding a spirit healer

P.S. Matilda = [Stormherald]
#4507SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
WoW Forums -> Petition: Normalize WF and Remove 3 Sec CD!!

That is because you are wrong Beowulf about it.

Point is that if you normalise WF and SS then while SS gets fixed number of attacks WF does NOT. Number of WF attacks is directly connected with number of attacks you did. If 3 second cooldown would not exist then different weapon speed WF's would end with identical damage as what one wins in damage, it loses in number of attacks. Due to cooldown however the scales are weighed towards slow weapons.

With your suggested change it would be heavily weighed for fast weapons. All due to WF fixed proc rate opposed to cooldown ability (like MS for example). In other words fast weapons get far more procs than slow ones. However, due to normalization slow weapons would not have damage advantage to make up for it.
#4508SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Atren
WoW Forums -> Petition: Normalize WF and Remove 3 Sec CD!!

That is because you are wrong Beowulf about it.

Point is that if you normalise WF and SS then while SS gets fixed number of attacks WF does NOT. Number of WF attacks is directly connected with number of attacks you did. If 3 second cooldown would not exist then different weapon speed WF's would end with identical damage as what one wins in damage, it loses in number of attacks. Due to cooldown however the scales are weighed towards slow weapons.

With your suggested change it would be heavily weighed for fast weapons. All due to WF fixed proc rate opposed to cooldown ability (like MS for example). In other words fast weapons get far more procs than slow ones. However, due to normalization slow weapons would not have damage advantage to make up for it.
Most decent fast weapons are offhand only. The exception of course is daggers which would be on their own 1.7 factor. Your fears are very misplaced.
#4509SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Toastradamus
No, he's right. The point of normalization is to reduce or remove weapon speed as a deciding factor when choosing weapons. The windfury mechanic is such that if you take away the 3s CD windfury no longer cares what your weapon speed is. This relies on fast weapons getting more but smaller procs and slow weapons getting fewer but larger procs. If you then normalize this fast weapons will still get more procs, but they will be the same size as slow weapon procs, reversing the weapon speed bias we have now instead of eliminating it.

Unless, of course, you're talking about normalizing ppm as well as damage... Hmm, maybe I should read that thread and see.
#4510SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Everytime I look at the Feral Season 3 gear I cry a little more.
#4511SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3slayer54
Mongoose Enchant

I just made a pair of Fel Edged Battle axes and was going to put Mongoose on them but another Shaman told me not to do it because it will cancel the Flurry proc. Is this true ?. and if so is it still worth all the mats or should i just get the +20 Attack power Enchant.
#4512SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
Originally Posted by slayer54
I just made a pair of Fel Edged Battle axes and was going to put Mongoose on them but another Shaman told me not to do it because it will cancel the Flurry proc. Is this true ?. and if so is it still worth all the mats or should i just get the +20 Attack power Enchant.
Yep, mongoose is a horrible enchant. I personally go with 40 spell damage to buff my shock damage.
#4513SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Seerinox
I'm thinking of going enhancement at the moment, and got enhancer and with the stat weights all the leather items in Karazhan are better than the mail ones, which is normal since intelect and mp5 have no weight whatsover.

But is going full leather good or is there a minimum amount of mana an enhancement shaman should have? I looked and if I have zero intelect from items my mana pool is of 4400, but I haven't tried enhancement in raids yet so I don't know if that's enough even with Shamanistic Rage, potions, and Judgement of Wisdom.

Edit: I did read the whole main post and saw that intelect should not be bothered with but I'm simply wondering if there isn't a bare minimum.

Great post by the way, it really helped me understand this aspect of my class and how it works

Last edited by Seerinox : 11/03/07 at 5:09 PM.
#4514SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yuma
Originally Posted by rava
Yep, mongoose is a horrible enchant. I personally go with 40 spell damage to buff my shock damage.
Heh, I think that's the nice way of saying: "Read the first post of the thread."
#4515SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Toastradamus
No, he's right. The point of normalization is to reduce or remove weapon speed as a deciding factor when choosing weapons. The windfury mechanic is such that if you take away the 3s CD windfury no longer cares what your weapon speed is. This relies on fast weapons getting more but smaller procs and slow weapons getting fewer but larger procs. If you then normalize this fast weapons will still get more procs, but they will be the same size as slow weapon procs, reversing the weapon speed bias we have now instead of eliminating it.

Unless, of course, you're talking about normalizing ppm as well as damage... Hmm, maybe I should read that thread and see.
I made a lengthy mathematical post about it today. Of course we would need some kind of very small coodlown to prevent back to back procs, but the numbers show that fast weapons would now only slightly (2%) outfavor slow if WF was normalized and taken off the 3 second cooldown. It results in slightly less top end damage, but more burst damage for pvp fun :P

WoW Forums -> Petition: Normalize WF and Remove 3 Sec CD!!
#4516SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Shaman Loot Comparisons updated

I've updated the comparison spreadsheets and included the S3 gear as suggested. You'll find the S3 gear as well as the new Vindicator's gear in the pre-raid, low raid and mid raid sheets as there is a decent possibility shamans will have any or all of those pieces all the way up to and including SSC and TK. And as always, let me know if I have any mistakes in there.
#4517SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shalas
I don't know where you got 8.2 WF attacks from 41 hits with no cooldown from. 41 hits at a 36% chance to proc WF is 14.76 WF procs, or 29.52 WF attacks. Redoing the math with an accurate number of procs, you get:

29.52 Fist WF attacks
25.92 Mace WF attacks
20.88 Axe WF attacks

Unnormalized damage:

Fist: 6273 AA + 11689.92 WF = 17962.92
Mace: 6480 AA + 12078.72 WF = 18558.72 (+3.3%)
Axe: 6786 AA + 12632.4 WF = 19418.4 (+8.1%)

SS being unnormalized means slower is better.

WF Normalized:

Fist: 6273 AA + 14641.92 WF = 20914.92
Mace: 6480 AA + 13530.24 WF = 20010.24 (-4%)
Axe: 6786 AA + 12047.76 WF = 18833.76 (-10%)

The difference between optimal and pessimal speeds would be bigger with WF normalized, and your WF damage numbers ignore the both bonus AP and the +40% damage, which makes the difference vastly more significant.

Even if it did have good results, normalizing WF doesn't really make sense in the first place. Without SS and the cooldown, WF's dps is completly independant of weapon speed. Making it favor faster weapons to balance out SS favoring slower weapons is incredibly stupid compared to simply normalizing SS. Removing the cooldown would require a massive nerf to some other area of the class, though. With some haste gear and a good crit rate, normalizing and removing the cooldown from WF would be over a 25% increase in WF damage using slow weapons, and you could push your damage even higher by switching to fast weapons.

I also don't know why you say "Most decent fast weapons are offhand only. The exception of course is daggers which would be on their own 1.7 factor. Your fears are very misplaced." like it's a good thing. Changing a class's mechanics so that optimal weapons simply don't exist is an incredibly terrible idea.
#4518SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Shalas, I think you didn't take into account the offhand damage penalty, or damage over all for that matter, and likewise used the wrong % for a non-cooldown based WF?
#4519SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shalas
All of the math except for the WF proc rate is exactly the same as used in your post. As you ignored the OH penalty, I did as well. It's completly irrelevant without the cooldown though, as the entire concept of "stealing" procs would not exist. The chance for each non-WF hit to proc WF when you have double WF is 36%. This is as close to proven as anything about WoW mechanics can get, as it not only has a logical explaination but perfectly matches experimental data. A 36% chance to proc two additional attacks on every hit results in 72% as many WF swings as non-WF hits.
#4520SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ujai
Your numbers are off. Same DPS different speed weapons all do the same auto attack DPS after all, for example.
I am pretty sure that's not all, but it's late here and I'm tired. But considering same auto attack DPS, fast weapons get even stronger following your numbers.

Fist: 6273 AA + 4067 WF = 10340
Mace: 6273 AA + 3758 WF = 10031 (-3%)
Axe: 6273 AA + 3347 WF = 9620 (-7.5%)

(taking the lowest AA number)
It also strikes me as odd that these numbers (with 2k AP) would only produce roughly 170 DPS.
Maybe I just do not get the whole point, though, and I appoligize if my very limited math skills just fail me.
#4521SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Shalas
All of the math except for the WF proc rate is exactly the same as used in your post. As you ignored the OH penalty, I did as well. It's completly irrelevant without the cooldown though, as the entire concept of "stealing" procs would not exist. The chance for each non-WF hit to proc WF when you have double WF is 36%. This is as close to proven as anything about WoW mechanics can get, as it not only has a logical explaination but perfectly matches experimental data. A 36% chance to proc two additional attacks on every hit results in 72% as many WF swings as non-WF hits.
Yeah but I was only using one weapon, not two :P That and if the cooldown is gone, we'd actually get a true 20% proc rate, though for consistencies sake, the WF would have to be independent of each other.

What I'm saying is, if you double buff WF, your off WF proc wont make your mh use WF and vice versa. You do the calculations based on each weapon, not just a generic 40% where all 40% COULD be MH or OH. As it is right now, we have a 36% chance to get a WF to proc on either hand, or 18% procs for all our attacks. Does that make any sense?

By 'fixing' WF back to how it was pre 2.0 with no CD and no gimmicky 36%, it would be a 20% chance for each weapon for THAT weapon to proc.
#4522SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Ujai
Your numbers are off. Same DPS different speed weapons all do the same auto attack DPS after all, for example.
I am pretty sure that's not all, but it's late here and I'm tired. But considering same auto attack DPS, fast weapons get even stronger following your numbers.

Fist: 6273 AA + 4067 WF = 10340
Mace: 6273 AA + 3758 WF = 10031 (-3%)
Axe: 6273 AA + 3347 WF = 9620 (-7.5%)

(taking the lowest AA number)
It also strikes me as odd that these numbers (with 2k AP) would only produce roughly 170 DPS.
Maybe I just do not get the whole point, though, and I appoligize if my very limited math skills just fail me.
You dont get an equal number of attacks per minute. For instance, 60/2.6 = 23.0769, you dont actually get that .0769 attacks, so you only get 23. With a 1.7 its 35.29 or 35, etc etc. A weapons DPS is the average of its range divided by its attack speed.
#4523SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Yeah but I was only using one weapon, not two :P
If you don't think that your numbers apply to a DW situation, then why did you make a post with a large amount of math about a situation that no one gives a fuck about?

However, with no cooldown on WF and Flurry/procs ignored, the hands are completly independant. Increase the final damage done by 50% and suddenly you have the damage for both hands.

Originally Posted by Beowolf
That and if the cooldown is gone, we'd actually get a true 20% proc rate, though for consistencies sake, the WF would have to be independent of each other.

What I'm saying is, if you double buff WF, your off WF proc wont make your mh use WF and vice versa. You do the calculations based on each weapon, not just a generic 40% where all 40% COULD be MH or OH. As it is right now, we have a 36% chance to get a WF to proc on either hand, or 18% procs for all our attacks. Does that make any sense?

By 'fixing' WF back to how it was pre 2.0 with no CD and no gimmicky 36%, it would be a 20% chance for each weapon for THAT weapon to proc.
That is not how it works. If you have WF on both hands, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. Your OH WF buff DOES apply to your MH as long as your MH also has WF, and vice-versa. This is probably a bug, but one that is unlikely to be fixed anytime soon. Also, it is very likely that WF had the cooldown pre-2.0, but was never noticed due to that even without knowledge of the cooldown very slow weapons were optimal, and no real testing on Windfury mechanics was ever done due to the lack of raiding viability.
#4524SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Right...

But were NOT talking about how it works now. We're talking about how it COULD work with no CD and independent WF proccing.
#4525SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3slant
Originally Posted by Toastradamus
The point of normalization is to reduce or remove weapon speed as a deciding factor when choosing weapons. The windfury mechanic is such that if you take away the 3s CD windfury no longer cares what your weapon speed is.
This is exactly correct. There is no reason to normalize windfury, because without the cooldown slow weapons are not superior to fast ones. Asking for WF normalization exposes a lack of understanding of combat mechanics.

Stormstrike on the other hand is a good candidate for normalization. But it's not clear how the developers choose which instants to normalize. Nobody knows why stormstrike, riposte, mongoose bite, hemorrage, etc, aren't normalized when everything else is. Blizzard thrives on inconsistency.

If the developers feel that windfury without cooldown does too much damage, they have the ability to tune it directly by adjusting the attack power bonus on procs or (more likely) the effect of the elemental weapons talent. That's what I would do.
#4526SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
There is some new food from ZA that gives you 20 hit rating: Spicy Hot Talbuk - Items - World of Warcraft
#4527SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Petition threads are stupid and you're stupid for posting this.[/colbert]

It's pretty obvious that the 3 second cooldown is a poor mechanic and no one here will dispute it, but there has to be some sort of cooldown for it to work in a fashion similar to what it does. You can't lower the cooldown to lower than 1 second for latency reasons (and even that's asking for trouble) largely because the client is partially responsible for determining when Windfury procs. This is evidenced by the delay between your normal hit and your windfury hit -- if the server were responsible for determining whether or not WF would hit, the two results would come back with no delay between them. This means that with a shorter cooldown in place it'd be possible to get back-to-back WF procs on a high-latency client (or for example, a client that forcibly introduced their own lag when they got in melee rage of someone).

The ability needs to be re-worked from the ground up along with the other 3 weapon buffs, but that is not likely to happen until WLK at the very soonest since any amount of tweaking would need to be very closely observed, and by and large enhancement DPS is really where it ought to be. We're seeing improvements to talents that suck like the entire rogue Sub tree but this isn't a good time to be meddling with things that do work. This is a situation where "it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies in the sense of the end results even if the method of reaching it is completely ridiculous.
#4528SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Nite, 3 sec cooldown is devastating for 2H weapons because pretty much all of them go under 3 second with Flurry. And not to take flurry full without it is not really logical, and then remains Bloodlust which WILL take it under 3 seconds. Especially for those that raid and want to do some pvp at times too. That is where the real problem of 3 second cooldown is. PvE is fine with it, but PvP is not. I do agree about changes wont be happening before WotLK.

Concerning normalization, you would have to change entire WF mechanics and would end with something like seal of command. If you want that you might as well go paladin.
#4529SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Hey guys!

I've been working on a excel sheet that can help my guild visualize how effective armor penetration is on various End Bosses/Players. The excel file is VERY easy to use, and (hopefully) bug-proof. Check it out:

BeowolfAP.xls - FileFront.com
#4530SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3anticide
nvm
#4531SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by anticide
"With CoE on a mob, Flame Shock will generally outperform the damage of Earth Shock, even with the 20% nature dmg bonus"

why compare flame shock to earth shock with 20% nature dmg bonus? doesn't windfury proc make a better use of the stormstrike debuffs anyway?
Windfury is physical damage.....
#4532SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
WF is physical attack that has no interaction with SS debuff whatsoever.
#4533SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Hey guys!

I've been working on a excel sheet that can help my guild visualize how effective armor penetration is on various End Bosses/Players. The excel file is VERY easy to use, and (hopefully) bug-proof. Check it out:

BeowolfAP.xls - FileFront.com
And unfortunately you have some errors in your calculations:
Wowwiki states that the armor formula you are using is for level 1-59 only:

Formulas:Damage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The correct formula for mobs >=60 should be:
(MobArmor - ArmorPen)/(MobAmor - ArmorPen - 22167.5 + 467.5*MobLevel)

But this formula won't help you much, since it calculates the mitigation of the mobs hits on your armor:

Basically the proper formula of you attacking a mob is:
(Armor - ArmorPen) / (Armor - ArmorPen + 10557.5)

The whole Lvl of the mob question in your excel sheet is not necessary or even wrong, the only important question is your level, not the level of your enemy.
We covered this question some 50 pages ago in this thread.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 11/04/07 at 6:52 AM.
#4534SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Astro
One question - did somebody tested what damage we can perform if use frostshock in battle with KoE and chill debuff on boss? If we don't have agro problem in this fight we can save SS debuff for elemental shammys not for our earthshock, isn't it?
#4535SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
You need to think about that one a little bit more.
#4536SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
It seems reasonable to alternate Flame Shock/Frost Shock if you don't have an aggro problem and are trying to save the SS debuff for your elemental shamans, but on the other hand, there are at least 5 seconds between your shocks with any spec, which is more than enough time for an elemental shaman to spam 2 LBs, so it's not really necessary. Just go Stormstrike->Flame Shock->Earth Shock->Stormstrike and you'll have very few problems.
#4537SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
And unfortunately you have some errors in your calculations:
Wowwiki states that the armor formula you are using is for level 1-59 only:

Formulasamage reduction - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

The correct formula for mobs >=60 should be:
(MobArmor - ArmorPen)/(MobAmor - ArmorPen - 22167.5 + 467.5*MobLevel)

But this formula won't help you much, since it calculates the mitigation of the mobs hits on your armor:

Basically the proper formula of you attacking a mob is:
(Armor - ArmorPen) / (Armor - ArmorPen + 10557.5)

The whole Lvl of the mob question in your excel sheet is not necessary or even wrong, the only important question is your level, not the level of your enemy.
We covered this question some 50 pages ago in this thread.
I'm slightly confused here, Tornhoof. The Wiki seems to deal entirely with player damage reduction vs mobs of a certain level, not what mobs armor damage reduction gives them. Now granted I just woke up, but am I missing something here?

For instance:

For level 70 enemies and raid bosses, this simplifies to
%Reduction vs. 70 = (Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)) * 100
%Reduction vs. 73 = (Armor / (Armor + 11960)) * 100


Note that the maximum damage reduction is capped at 75%.
This formula seems to be entirely for a players % reduction from a boss mob. Not only that, but if your formula is correct, it seems to be for a level 70 and not level 73 which is what this spreadsheet is designed primarily for.

Again, the spreadsheet is just an easy way to see how much a mob is mitigating YOUR damage, not how much you mitigate the BOSSES damage. I thought I was fairly certain they made player armor mitigate less in TBC by using the new formula. It doesn't make much sense they would also make boss armor mitigate less by also switching their formula. Maybe you could help clarify?

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/04/07 at 2:27 PM.
#4538SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Beowulf:

To quote wowwiki:
Armor reduces physical damage done against you by a certain proportion. It depends entirely on the level of the monster (or player) hitting you and your own armor. Your level doesn't matter.

In your spreadsheet you are the boss, you just care what level the player is who is hitting you.

The reason is quite simple:

You, the bossmob, have 5k armor for example, your armor is obviously more effective against lower enemies, e.g. lower players won't hit you as hard, but higher level players will hit you harder.

You'll just need to invert your idea and take the other perspective and you'll see why it is obvious why you need the against lvl 70 enemy formula.

If you would take your original formula with a lvl 73 mob it would never cover the case that if you are lvl 80 you hit the lvl 73 mob way harder than at lvl 70, neither does it cover the case that a lvl 60 player would hit the lvl 73 mob way less than at lvl 70, if he does actually hit.
#4539SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Beowulf:

To quote wowwiki:
Armor reduces physical damage done against you by a certain proportion. It depends entirely on the level of the monster (or player) hitting you and your own armor. Your level doesn't matter.

In your spreadsheet you are the boss, you just care what level the player is who is hitting you.

The reason is quite simple:

You, the bossmob, have 5k armor for example, your armor is obviously more effective against lower enemies, e.g. lower players won't hit you as hard, but higher level players will hit you harder.

You'll just need to invert your idea and take the other perspective and you'll see why it is obvious why you need the against lvl 70 enemy formula.

If you would take your original formula with a lvl 73 mob it would never cover the case that if you are lvl 80 you hit the lvl 73 mob way harder than at lvl 70, neither does it cover the case that a lvl 60 player would hit the lvl 73 mob way less than at lvl 70, if he does actually hit.
But again, the spreadsheet shows the first box having the NPC target's level, armor, and debuffs, while the right box has your gears armor penetration and if you have the executioner weapon enchant. The final number on the left box shows the %damage per hit they are reducing your attacks by, while the final number on the right box shows how much damage gain you get when the target is debuffed with the spells and your AP gear and enchants.

Maybe I should change the title for the first two boxes? I think you are confused on what its doing, the spreadsheet shows what your targets mitigation is, not yours against the target.

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/04/07 at 4:17 PM.
#4540SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
I know what it does, and yes it is still wrong
You'll need to change the box name to player level and the whole formula
#4541SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Irukandji
Originally Posted by Igniter
Try closing down programs like WoW as well. I was unable to run the sim and wow at the same time until I upgraded to my core 2 duo.
yeah, i tried that - its some kind of java incompatibility error b/c i just get a red X in the corner of the applet.

i got it to work with my vista computer at work - still no luck w/ my xp / linux machines though.
#4542SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3galzohar
Just a few days ago we were told in class about java: "Write once run everywhere? more like write once debug everywhere..."
#4543SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Alright Tornhoof, I've muddled through this most likely, but I've modified the formulas and uploaded a new version. Let me know if this is correct across most levels :P

BeowolfAPv2.xls - FileFront.com

This one actually shows how the debuffs and armor penetration affects abilities or weapon damage:

BeowolfAPv6.xls - FileFront.com

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/05/07 at 4:45 AM.
#4544SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Weem
Updated the Low-Raid and Mid Raid spreadsheets again to include The Savage's Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. Somehow I missed it before and saw it drop tonight.
#4545SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
faight
I'm currently leveling a shaman on Blackrock, I'm in my mid 50's. I don't have any endgame experience raiding with enhancement, or shaman at all, I was previously a holy Paladin. Before reading this thread I was leveling with a slow mainhander and a fast offhander. Someone in my guild pointed this thread out to me and I've since switched to slow/slow and have marveled at my DPS increase. However today I was grinding out some turtles in Southern Tanaris to catch up on my skinning, which has fallen behind the level curve I'm at, and I was thinking about the posts here talking about the bug or glitch that gives each hand a 36% proc rate with windfury, and I wondered if it applied to other shaman enchants. So I threw Frostbrand on both weapons and went to work. I use Violation as a DPS meter, and I reset it before I did so. I was averaging around 200 DPS with WF/WF, and when I switched over to FB/FB I was, to my surprise, keeping the same DPS. Frostbrand doesn't seem to have a proc limit at all, there were times I would SS and get both weapons to proc, then normal swing and get both weapons to proc as well. Frostbrand at that level was doing 181-182 damage per proc, so that was about 720 damage right there, which is usually what Windfury hits for when just one mainhand weapon proc crits.

It seemed to me that my Frostbrand was proccing a lot, to the point where it felt like I was getting a proc every two attacks. Of course, I'm using slow/slow weapons (2.5 MH and 2.7 OH) so I don't know what this would be like with fast weapons. I was going to play around with Yo's simulator, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Frostbrand got the same type of proc rate increase Windfury does when stacked. I realize this probably doesn't have much effect end-game, since Windfury is obviously the better choice due to it's scaling with gear, but I was curious as to whether any one has researched Frostbrand to see it's mechanics and if trying to use two fast weapons with Frostbrand was anywhere near useable in any situation if the proc rate is increased. As I am only in my 50's I don't have access to much as far as equipment goes, but I was hoping there might be a 70 shaman sitting around with a couple 1.4-1.5 speed weapons who could test this out to see if it's even worth mentioning.

To sum it up:
Frostbrand seems to proc a lot. Is this viable for anything and is the proc rate increased when it is cast on both weapons like Windfury's is?

Edit: Cleaned up some muddled language.

Last edited by faight : 11/05/07 at 7:41 AM.
#4546SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Winfurae
Has anyone compared the Dragonstrike to the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver? While the Cleaver does have 6 more top end damage, 5.5 more dps and good stats, I wonder how this weights against the haste proc on Dragonstrike. I forgot to mention that Dragonstrike is 2.7 while the cleaver is 2.6, this might make a difference as well.
#4547SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Winfurae, this is a good opportunity for us to find out why people ask this sort of question. I can't speak for the others here, but I personally won't get snarky with you as long as you're willing to let us know why you have to ask this question.

Did you read the first post in its entirety?

If no, then can I ask why? Does it just feel like too much information?

If yes, did you not understand the part about the sims available to you, by which you could have answered this queston?

I'm genuinely curious why people ask questions that are either explicitly or implicitly answered in Malan's excellent data consolidation in the first post of this thread.
#4548SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Winfurae
From what I have gathered from this thread it seems that Yo's! simulator is pretty enthusiastic when it comes to the uptime of Dragonstrike.
#4549SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
Originally Posted by Winfurae
From what I have gathered from this thread it seems that Yo's! simulator is pretty enthusiastic when it comes to the uptime of Dragonstrike.
So we can assume you read the entire original post and understood everything there was to know before making your previous post?

(if not, feel free to give pionters on what would make it easier/more accesable)
#4550SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
If it's the dragonstrike proc uptime that has you concerned, I'd run the simulator two times. Do it once with the dragonstrike proc button checked, once without. From there, decide for yourself how that matches up against the S3 weapon that you'd assumedly run in a 3rd test.

I'm guessing it'd look something like this:
test1: 1000 dps (dragonstrike weapon speed/dmg, dragonstrike proc)
test2: 985 dps (S3 weapon speed/dmg, no dragonstrike proc)
test3: 950 dps (dragonstrike weapon speed/dmg, no dragonstrike proc)

You can then decide for yourself if the proc is more than 35% overvalued in the sim. I'd be curious what those 3 numbers are for you when you run the sim.
#4551SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
If any mac users that have upgraded to Leopard have managed to get Yo's sim running again, please let me know what action you took to do so.
#4552SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kreltok
2 Things you can do. (yes I'm a PC tech IRL)

You can dump the crappy mac and get a PC

Or run boot camp (built in to leopard), partition off a 20g spot on your hd, install windows xp pro and run it on there.

Sorry bout dumping on macs, but as a PC tech I see the truth of those thigns every day >.<

1 in 10 Hardware failure rates, no recalls (bad PR), probably the most pita machines ever made to work on and twice as expensive (or more) for their parts as a PC is.

for example - DVD/CD burner replacement on a mac desktop - $200 - Laptop $250+

PC Desktop - $50 - Laptop - $100ish if not cheaper.

I go off on macs cause at my repair shop I work on them all the frigging time, and its just horrible how much is going wrong with them and apple does nothing about it, the new IMacs literally have a 1/10 hardware failure rate (90% of the time its the logic board) but apple would rather pay me to fix it than recall them because its bad PR.
#4553SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Ok that was less than helpful.
#4554SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Aximous
Expertise AEP

After some calculations (again) after Rob's explanation of expertise rounding I came up with another formula that should give the aep value of expertise that actually increases our dps (not calculating for the rest)

Expertise AEP = Hit AEP*((floor(Expertise rating / 3.95)*0.25)*15.8)*(white dps%+yellow dps%)/white dps%
Explanation for the formula: By dividing the rating by 3.95 and taking it's floor you get the number of expertise points that will decrease your dodge and parry rate. Multiplying this with 0.25 will give you percentage by what they will reduce the rate. Multiplying it by 15.8 you'll get that how many hit rating would reduce the missrate by equal amount and if you multiply this by hit aep you got it converted to it. The rest will deal with the increased value of expertise over hitrating but that was discussed before.

What I'm thinking about is that we should divide the result of this by then number of expertise rating that actually increases dps to get aep value for each point.

Because leaving out the rest rating that doesn't increase dps this should be recalculated once you get a new item with expertise as the value changes with that because of rounding.

Link to the post with rounding's explanation (also included in the OP) for those who aren't familiar with the search button: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Last edited by Aximous : 11/05/07 at 5:33 PM.
#4555SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Rob
The best way, IMO, to value items at this point, is to use the provided formula. Although, I'll admit I haven't considered the impact that crits/glances will have on that, but I don't think it's been conclusively proven the mechanic by which expertise works (i.e. are dodges converted to hits, or are dodges removed from the attack table? in the former scenario, crits/(crits+hits) decreases but in the latter scenario, crits/(crits+hits) remains constant.)
Going back to my WWS parse of the twilight serpents, it looked to me like crits / (crits + hits) on yellow attacks remains constant (because of the 2 roll system). I didn't examine the white attacks portion closely enough to comment.

Also, I'm really sorry if this has been rehashed and/or proven, but are we sure that the "floor" function isn't just a display truncation function, much like "time left" on buffs is for blizzard built-in buff timers? If it really is a floor function, that stinks.
#4556SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lucentia
Late reply to the "why do people ask these questions" post...

As one who has asked such a stupid question, I will just say it is because I, and possibly others, had or have not consciously realized the use for a tool presented. While I had used Yo's sim to calculate AEPs as per the first post, it had not occurred to me to use the tool to compare DPS outputs of different weapons... a use which is obvious once you think about it. However, as obvious it is, it isn't mentioned in the OP. So, I think it may just get overlooked or unrealized by new readers until they ask the "silly" question and then get told to utilize the tool for an obvious application.

if that makes sense

Its entirely possible quite a few of the questions could be avoided by putting in section VIII.5 or VIII.7.1 just a little snippet pointing out the use of Yo's to compare weapons, as obvious as it may be.
#4557SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I'll do that now in fact.
#4558SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Jyca
Maybe I'm doing something wrong but i can't seem to get Yo's sim working. Whenever i click the link it goes to a blank page(or in the case of IE it says page cannot be displayed), i've tried it in both firefox and IE with the same results each time. Thought it was my firewall so disabled it but still got the same results, I am connected to a router so not sure if that may be blocking it.

I did go through Yo's posts but didn't see him reply to anyone with this issue and since he hasn't been online in a while seems pointless to PM him. Tried a search to see if anyone had a similar problem but couldn't find anything where someone ended up with a blank screen.

I'm not using a mac and i've java version 6 up3 running so no idea what's causing this.
#4559SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yichimet
Malan, I'll test on Leopard for you in a couple of hours when I get a break from work and can break out my laptop.
#4560SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette
Going back to my WWS parse of the twilight serpents, it looked to me like crits / (crits + hits) on yellow attacks remains constant (because of the 2 roll system). I didn't examine the white attacks portion closely enough to comment.
I think this would be expected, because of two-roll, as you said. This is required to make the (Yellow+White)/White portion of the equation hold.

Now, here is where my mental gymnastics are failing me. I would say that the other thing required to make that hold is white crits/(crits+hits) remain constant. If they don't, then we get the implication that hits are increasing and crits aren't... so the white portion is not increasing by the full amount that we'd expect. But then, I realize that hit rating doesn't increase crits either. So I would say that white crits/(crits+hits) must actually decrease, to make our AEP derivation hold true. For what it's worth, this is expected behavior as far as I'm concerned -- I believe that Blizzard subtracts a percentage of "dodge" and assigns it to the "hit" column rather than making no assignment.

Of course, the best way to get an AEP valuation would be if expertise rating were just coded into Yo's sim (depending on how he deals with the discontinuites I expect). This is all just kind of hacked together based on what I think makes sense.
Also, I'm really sorry if this has been rehashed and/or proven, but are we sure that the "floor" function isn't just a display truncation function, much like "time left" on buffs is for blizzard built-in buff timers? If it really is a floor function, that stinks.
I do not believe it has been conclusively proven. However, we do know that the weapon skill rating worked like a "floor" (recall the 1.2% jump with that last point of weapon skill/weapon skill rating). I also think there are not partial points of defense resulting from defense rating. The Blizzard UI also displays "2 expertise...reduces target enemy's chance to dodge/parry by 0.50%" with 2.5 expertise, rather than 2.5*0.25 = "reduces...by 0.62%". All this leads me to believe that there is a truncation going on in the calculations and not just the display.

Last edited by Rob : 11/05/07 at 1:35 PM.
#4561SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shamanatrix
Some blue posts in the Official Shaman Forums

WoW Forums -> Compilation of General and SPEC Sham issues!

Wow, finally, some blue paying attention to our concerns. Come on guys, lets put some construtive information into that post before its flooded with rants and spam.
#4562SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Rob, thanks a lot for the explanation of the expertise situation. That's really nasty.

And about the white damage aspect of expertise, I would agree that (outside of the floor/rounding) issue, it functions exactly the same as hit.
#4563SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Kreltok
sorry about the mac hating, but if you are having problems getting it to run on Leopard run it on the windows side with dual boot until a fix comes out for it.

Its very easy if you have never done it before, in your utilities folder is a program called Boot Camp.

If you have a copy of windows XP home/pro or Windows Vista then you can set it up (windows xp home/pro disk needs to be SP2)

Run boot Camp, install windows on a partition (size determined by you, I would make it 32G or less and use FAT 32 so you can xfer files from PC side to mac side)

Just follow directions. Just about anybody can get a hold of an XP disk now days, I would suggest pro.

It's a temporary fix until you get a permanent one to use on the mac side, but if there are other programs you would like to use that only run on windows, it's a good thing to do.
#4564SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Kreltok -- I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think anybody's interested in your "buy Windows and repartition your machine" fix to running an ostensibly cross-platform, cross-browser gear simulator.

I'm a software engineer who spends most of the day running Java applets on the Mac. There's something strange about the way Yo's simulator is operating under Java 5. Unless Yo! has moved on and abandoned the project, the fix will be to identify the strangeness and either report it to him for a hotfix or change a security policy in the Mac JRE. If he has moved on, the fix might be to launch the simulator outside of a browser sandbox.

I'll be taking a look at this tonight (I haven't used the thing since I upgraded the OS, since I'm spending some time Elemental).

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/05/07 at 6:19 PM.
#4565SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
I'm not a Mac user or a developer of any kind, but could the problems with Leopard and Java 6 be to blame? I seem to remember Yo! saying at some point that Java 6 was required for the sim.

leopard java 6 - Google Search
#4566SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Kreltok
Kreltok -- I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think anybody's interested in your "buy Windows and repartition your machine" fix to running an ostensibly cross-platform, cross-browser gear simulator
you are obviously missing what i pointed out. It's a temporary fix until leopard comes out with a fix for it's java 6 problems (yes leopard is having issues with java 6).

You dont have to go out and spend $150 and buy windows, theres untold amounts of keys floating around for xp pro and xp home that are very usable, all you need is a disk and about 20 minutes of searching for a key.

If you need a key, and can't seem to find one, just ask me, I have a few kicking around somewhere.

I obviously don't like macs, I am just throwing a relatively easy quick fix.

If you don't want to wait for apple to get off their lazy butts and fix the issues with leopard and java 6 (not a priority issue with them) then this is a temporary fix to get it working until they do.

I'm a software engineer who spends most of the day running Java applets on the Mac.
And I doubt you have upgraded to 10.5 yet and if you have then you would obviously know that it does not come with java 6, nor does it work with java 6.

Last edited by Kreltok : 11/05/07 at 6:36 PM.
#4567SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
@ Java complaints:
Well, Yo! said he was on vacation until Nov 1, so I hope he pops in sometime in the next few days to update the sim -- or at least open the source so somebody else can take it over if he will not be working on it anymore.

@ Malan:
OP now says:
In order to calculate your Expertise Rating --> AEP, you need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again, to convert it into hit AEP.

As an example of this, if I have 47 Expertise Rating on all my items, then Floor(47/15.8) * 15.8 = 31.6 AEP.
This is a bit confusing/incorrect. I'd rewrite it as:

In order to convert your Expertise Rating into AEP for purposes of comparison, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again. This gives you a "hit rating" equivalency.

But expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8.

Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.

As an example of these calculations, if I have 47 Expertise Rating on all my items, and a hit AEP of 1.6, that equals Floor(47/15.8) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = Floor(2.97) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 2 * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 91.008 AEP.

Last edited by Rob : 11/05/07 at 6:37 PM.
#4568SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Varren
Edit: deleted post as I re-read... much too snippy. Will just use PM's til I get a result.

Last edited by Varren : 11/05/07 at 6:47 PM.
#4569SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yichimet
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the sim is broken on Leopard until the issues with 6 are fixed. I at least have nowhere near the know-how to get it going.
#4570SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Here's the problem with the sim on Leopard - every mac user that wanted to use the sim on Tiger had installed the Java 6 Developer release. Well, that version is kaput on Leopard and I've been messing around with the sym links in the system to try to get everything pointing back to version 5, and having little luck. There's a hidden settings file somewhere that I can't locate.


@Rob - I'll get that updated, that bit was from a week or so ago off of what you had posted, I had intended to update it with that new stuff posted earlier today.
#4571SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Brum
S3 Weapons

In version 7521 of 2.3 (dated 11/1), the one-hand arena weapons now require 1850 rating like the rest of the weapons

#4572SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Just committed rewrites of Main Hand Weapons, Weapon Expertise, and Stat Weights sections. Credit to Rob for providing the new text for those sections.
#4573SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Laet
Originally Posted by Shamanatrix
WoW Forums -> Compilation of General and SPEC Sham issues!

Wow, finally, some blue paying attention to our concerns. Come on guys, lets put some construtive information into that post before its flooded with rants and spam.
Blizzard doesn't care... they haven't cared for a long time.
EDIT: Sorry, frustrated... we continue to post valid solutions to the Shaman issues and the responses from Blue dry right up.

Last edited by Laet : 11/06/07 at 5:23 PM. Reason: :(
#4574SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
Just committed rewrites of Main Hand Weapons, Weapon Expertise, and Stat Weights sections. Credit to Rob for providing the new text for those sections.
On Main Hands, using Yo!'s sim and adjusting the appropriate stats [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both RT and syphon. Since it's more obtainable for many players it might be worth letting them know they don't need to worry about upgrading it till Sunwell.
#4575SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis
On Main Hands, using Yo!'s sim and adjusting the appropriate stats [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both RT and syphon. Since it's more obtainable for many players it might be worth letting them know they don't need to worry about upgrading it till Sunwell.
Can anyone else back this claim up? I see you have that equipped with Syphon OH, so I assume that combo is working well for you in-game...
#4576SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Really? I ran the sim against my Gladiator Cleaver awhile back and only saw the Talon giving a very slight upgrade.
#4577SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
I'm headed to DM to test out all of the combos(+talon), will be a while for results as there are many to test!
#4578SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
According to my model, Talon MH results in 10 dps less than RT MH /Syphon OH, which is again in the 1% range. Same as pretty much every permutation of these weapons.
#4579SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Morelis
Like I said, those are my results using Yo!'s sim, maybe it doesn't model the differences in weapon stats properly. Seems it would be fairly easy for someone else to do the same and report their findings.

I'd been using Dragonstrike for several months prior to the talon and can't say I see any difference good or bad in game. There's so much variation in enhancement DPS, I'd have a hard time believing anyone who claims they can tell the difference between any of the decent weapon choices. Without thousands of hours of controlled in game testing to back up their claims anyway.
#4580SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
Quick question for the gurus. I just recently replaced one of my weapons, and seeing how patch 2.3 comes out next week, I'm wanted to find out if there is an offhand proc penalty before I enchant my new offhand weapon with Mongoose. If there is essentially no difference in ppm from either hand with same speed weapons, I'll save my 400 gold and get an executioner next week. Just want to know if I should bite the bullet for now :P
#4581SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
There is no penalty.
#4582SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Beowolf
So it wont matter what hand has executioner enchant on it. Good to know
#4583SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krish
News for Orcs:

2.3 will now grant 5 expertise (not expertise rating) with axes and 2H axes only.
#4584SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
That's 1.25% dodge and parry reduction, so it should definitely be worth pursuing axes.
#4585SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Upto now expertise been universal, so question is are weapon specific expertise for racials only or will the equipment get them as well? Can anyone on ptr check Vashj belt for example?
#4586SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Atren
Upto now expertise been universal, so question is are weapon specific expertise for racials only or will the equipment get them as well? Can anyone on ptr check Vashj belt for example?
vashj belt is normal weapon expertise, not tied to one weapon type
#4587SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
vashj belt is normal weapon expertise, not tied to one weapon type
Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding: I know it so far been not tied, but with this push they added weapon specific expertise to racials so i am kinda curious if they changed the items again? Or you already checked after the push?
#4588SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Concerning Executioner enchant, if it really is on same proc rate as mongoose could not we do comparison assuming 100% uptime for comparison? Reasoning for that is if it is same proc rate then we can assume same uptime on average and since we only interested which of enchants better we can up them both to 100% without skewing for one or other enchant. Easiest way to do that would be add their effects as constant in simulator. Is there some flaw or can be done?
#4589SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Atren
Concerning Executioner enchant, if it really is on same proc rate as mongoose could not we do comparison assuming 100% uptime for comparison? Reasoning for that is if it is same proc rate then we can assume same uptime on average and since we only interested which of enchants better we can up them both to 100% without skewing for one or other enchant. Easiest way to do that would be add their effects as constant in simulator. Is there some flaw or can be done?
The obvious flaw is that mongoose stacks, but executioner does not.
you would underrate mongoose but overrate executioner with that. Executioner will be modelled properly soon enough
The whole idea about comparing enchants is to model proc behaviour.
#4590SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
One of the guys in the Executioner vs Mongoose thread opened a thread on the WoW boards asking for CM response about the Exeuctioner stacking issue, hopefully we'll get a response.

I see that we're back to Orcs and Axes being paired again, I love the flip flopping going on lately.
#4591SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
I was thinking more in line of single enchant comparison. Like if no enchant on other weapon which would show it individual worth.

As it stands other weapon will definetly be mongoose if dont stack, question is what should first one be? If we had mongoose simulated as enchant on one weapon and then cycle the effect of mongoose/executioner in stats would that show accurate description for dual mongoose vs combo of executioneer and mongoose? Imo this can be done as long as their proc rate is same and they have no inner cooldowns.
#4592SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Atren
I was thinking more in line of single enchant comparison. Like if no enchant on other weapon which would show it individual worth.

As it stands other weapon will definetly be mongoose if dont stack, question is what should first one be? If we had mongoose simulated as enchant on one weapon and then cycle the effect of mongoose/executioner in stats would that show accurate description for dual mongoose vs combo of executioneer and mongoose? Imo this can be done as long as their proc rate is same and they have no inner cooldowns.
Well, this would be as simple as just comparing the values of 120 agi and 2% haste worth of haste rating, with 840(? not sure if this was the actual value of the proc or not) armor penetration.

Using the middle raid values that comes down to (2*120 + 31.6*1.48) versus (840*0.28), so 296,8 for Mongoose versus 135,20 for Executioner, pretty easy to say which is superior now, unless I screwed up majorly on my calculations here.

Gonna be hard to say if or when Executioner finally surpasses Mongoose, run the math with your own AEP values to see if it's actually worth getting for you or not.
#4593SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
When you start getting into T6 values and -Armor starts to get better they'll begin to equate. My armor pen value when I ran the sims (before recent upgrades) was 0.3 which would value Execution at 252 AEP, much closer to Mongoose at that point (assuming that the values of Agi/Haste held constant of course).

Eyeballing it and generalizing some figures in my head, it would appear that as long as your value of Agility is less than 2 (with kings) any value of -Armor greater than 0.35 or so will probably make Executioner worth as much or more than Mongoose.
#4594SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Dukanull
Simple question on mechanics, does dual wielding axes give a 2.5% parry/dodge reduction, or does it not work like that. Alternatively, if you are using a RT in MH and OH'ing a syphon, will the 1.25% be between both hands or just the axe?
#4595SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
If you're only using one axe, it should in theory only reflect the dodge rate for that weapon, so for SS purposes you'd want the axe in your MH to get that little extra edge. Kind of depends on how they implement it though.
#4596SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Stopokingme
Using the middle raid values that comes down to (2*120 + 31.6*1.48) versus (840*0.28), so 296,8 for Mongoose versus 135,20 for Executioner, pretty easy to say which is superior now, unless I screwed up majorly on my calculations here.
840*0.28 = 235.20, not 135.20. So they're closer than you suggest, but Mongoose still looks better on paper.

At T6 gear levels, we might expect:
(120*2 + 31.6*2) versus (840*0.35)
303.2 AEP (Mongoose 100% uptime) vs 294 AEP (Executioner 100% uptime)
Pretty close. At this point I'd think about picking up Executioner on one of my weapons since it's close in raids and superior in PvP.
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Simple question on mechanics, does dual wielding axes give a 2.5% parry/dodge reduction, or does it not work like that. Alternatively, if you are using a RT in MH and OH'ing a syphon, will the 1.25% be between both hands or just the axe?
We can expect that you will get the full parry/dodge reduction, but only for the hand you are wielding an axe in. Rising Tide (or a VG Cleaver) should still be the best MH for Orcs in 2.3 -- reducing the number of dodged WFs and SSs is a huge win.

Edit: It appears that the Human expertise skill is currently bugged and applies a +5 expertise aura, so you can DW Mace/Sword and get +10 expertise (+5 from sword spec and +5 from mace spec). Discussion here. The implication is that Orcs will currently get +5 expertise as long as they are wielding any axe. I'd expect this to get changed once they figure out how to code it properly.

Last edited by Rob : 11/07/07 at 4:38 PM. Reason: new axe spec info
#4597SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3titanrazor
weap combo

Curious as to what would be best weap combo between:

Dual Syphon's and Rising tide MH/Syphon OH

Anyone?
#4598SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by titanrazor
Curious as to what would be best weap combo between:

Dual Syphon's and Rising tide MH/Syphon OH

Anyone?
I see that this was your first post ever on this forum. We like to encourage people to read a lot, if not all, of the thread they are responding to, before posting questions like this. Since this thread is obscenely long at this point, I'm sure you can imagine why we might not like people popping in and asking things without reading the earlier material first.
#4599SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Krom[Fenris]
Or, in other words. RTFM!
#4600SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
I have a minor comment about the Stonebreaker Totem section of the OP.
Comparison of these 2 items provided by Panny.
A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime + B1 + B2 + B3
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 4.8/16.8 = 0.286
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 2/16.8 = 0.119
Percent_of_white_Swings = 10/16.8 = 0.595

A: 32
B1: 44
B2: 13
B3: 65 * (1 - Missrate)

A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
32 = 0.52 * (44 + 13 + [ 65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Missrate = 0.93

So against a standard mob, if your miss rate is less than 93%, Stonebreaker is better with a 52% uptime.
Changing some values for boss mobs and assuming you have Nature's Guidance for 3% spell hit, we find that against a boss if your Miss Rate is better than 77% the Stonebreaker is better. These figures assume however that you are able to maintain a ~50% uptime, which means you must be able to shock on nearly every available cooldown.
I agree with the math and the general approach, but I think this is a less than useful way to present the result. The final comment tells people that Stonebreaker is better under two conditions:

1)miss rate is less than 77%
2)uptime on the buff is ~50% or better

Looking at the math, it's clear that as miss rate goes down, the required uptime to break even with Astral Winds also goes down. That being the case, why choose to present such an unrealistic data point as 77% or 93% miss rate, when none of us see this in game? The base miss rate against bosses is something around 26% isn't it? Furthermore, we all have 9% hit from talents, so realistically no raiding shaman is seeing miss rates worse than 20%.

Why not pick a conservative but more realistic value of 25% miss rate, and then solve for the required uptime? Doing so results in a required uptime on Stonebreaker of only 30%. Furthermore, if we go to the extreme and solve for a theoretical 0% miss rate, the required uptime is about 26%. This gives us a fairly narrow window of uptime requirements for the whole range of miss rates one would see in game, and one that certainly does not require perfect shock spam. (Edit: In fact, a 30% uptime requires an average of 1 shock per 17 seconds, by my math.)

The way the section is currently presented, the conclusion may lead some shaman to assume that Stonebreaker is only good if they can maintain constant shock spam. The math tells a different story, and I think it would be better to rephrase the conclusion and sample values used to more accurately reflect this.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/07/07 at 7:48 PM.
#4601SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.
#4602SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Skiace
The way the section is currently presented, the conclusion may lead some shaman to assume that Stonebreaker is only good if they can maintain constant shock spam. The math tells a different story, and I think it would be better to rephrase the conclusion and sample values used to more accurately reflect this.
I agree that this section is confusing as written. I took a different route to solving this problem, and determined that you need ~30-35% buff uptime for Stonebreaker's to be better than Astral Winds. Shock miss rate would obviously impact this buff uptime but it's not required to be considered as a separate variable unless we know the mechanic by which Stonebreaker's procs (PPM? Percent chance? Internal cooldown, if any?) Unfortunately, although I recall posting that analysis to EJ, and getting a response, I can't find my post, and I'm too lazy to re-do the math... feel free to search for it, but I think I must have been sleepy while posting, hit the wrong thread, and gotten my post deleted.

Last edited by Rob : 11/07/07 at 8:38 PM.
#4603SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Mengus
It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.
I guess that's yet another unclear aspect of the section then, cause I obviously misinterpreted it as melee miss rate, not shock miss rate. Still, what kind of shock miss rates can we expect as enhance shaman? Surely it's much closer to 25% than 77%, no?

Edit: Anecdotally, WWS shows my personal shock miss rate to be somewhere in the ballpark of 10%.

Originally Posted by Rob
...unless we know the mechanic by which Stonebreaker's procs (PPM? Percent chance? Internal cooldown, if any?
I was under the impression that this showed it's a simple 50% chance. Elemental Strength - Spells - World of Warcraft
#4604SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
You have 17% base chance to resist a spell vs a lvl 73 mob (of which 16% can be mitigated by talents/spell hit rating). With Nature's Guidance, you reduce your miss chance to 14% .
#4605SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by vorda
You have 17% base chance to resist a spell vs a lvl 73 mob (of which 16% can be mitigated by talents/spell hit rating). With Nature's Guidance, you reduce your miss chance to 14% .
Ok, so back to my original point then. A 14% miss rate on shocks leads to a required uptime of around 28%, so we're still in the general 30% uptime range.

Edit: Furthermore, the shock miss rate for enhancement shaman is going to be much more consistent from one person to the next than the melee miss rate, so it seems even more logical to use a realistic value here (i.e. 17-14% instead of 93% or 77%).
#4606SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
OK, here's a quick and dirty replication of my math. Last time I did it, I accounted for white misses but said that 50% of WF procs were MH and 50% were OH. This time, I'm too lazy. The net result of these two exclusions from the model is a higher required uptime. Real number should be closer to 30%.

In a 30 second period, we get at most 10 MH WF procs, 3 stormstrikes, 15 MH attacks, and 15 OH attacks (weapon speed = 2.6, 100% flurry uptime).

Astral Winds applies to 10x MH WF attacks. Include "Elemental Weapons" talent 40% multiplier. 10 procs*2 attacks/proc*80 AP/attack*1.4 = 2240 bonus AP.

Stonebreaker applies to everything, but it's halved on the offhand.
10*2*110*1.4 + 18*110 + 18*110*0.5 = 3080+1980+990 = 6050 bonus AP.

Solve for uptime p such that
2240 = 6050p
p = 37%
Stonebreaker is therefore superior if uptime exceeds 37%.

Complicating factors not accounted for:
* Increased white miss/glance rate (vs. yellow)
* Increased critical strike chance of white attacks (vs. yellow)
* This is a best case scenario in WF procs (you will not get 10 MH procs)
* This is a best case scenario in Flurry uptime (you will not have 100%)
By far, the largest of these factors is the exceedingly small probability of getting exactly 10 MH WF procs in a 30 second period. Therefore, this is an overestimate of the required uptime for Stonebreaker to be superior.

Last edited by Rob : 11/07/07 at 9:04 PM.
#4607SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Mengus
It's the miss rate of your SHOCK spells, doesn't have anything to do with melee hit rate.
I'm quoting this and addressing it again, because looking at the numbers, I'm not convinced that it is spell miss rate and not melee miss rate being considered.

A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime + B1 + B2 + B3 <====typo in the OP
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)
If it's spell miss rate, why does it only appear in the white swings term, and not every term with the Stonebreaker ap? Isn't spell miss rate most easily taken into consideration as a reduction of the 50% proc chance on the effect?

Edit: there's also a typo in the OP, it's corrected later on in the same post. the line should read:
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)

Last edited by Skiace : 11/07/07 at 9:30 PM.
#4608SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tassaros
excuse me I am not that good in maths, but in the example of the 1st page concerning Expertise, sisn't it then 1 expertise rating ~ 1.96 AEP ?????
#4609SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
In the example in section V.III.12 you get 1 expertise rating ~ 1.936 AEP.
#4610SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Rob
OK, here's a quick and dirty replication of my math. Last time I did it, I accounted for white misses but said that 50% of WF procs were MH and 50% were OH. This time, I'm too lazy. The net result of these two exclusions from the model is a higher required uptime. Real number should be closer to 30%.

In a 30 second period, we get at most 10 MH WF procs, 3 stormstrikes, 15 MH attacks, and 15 OH attacks (weapon speed = 2.6, 100% flurry uptime).

Astral Winds applies to 10x MH WF attacks. Include "Elemental Weapons" talent 40% multiplier. 10 procs*2 attacks/proc*80 AP/attack*1.4 = 2240 bonus AP.

Stonebreaker applies to everything, but it's halved on the offhand.
10*2*110*1.4 + 18*110 + 18*110*0.5 = 3080+1980+990 = 6050 bonus AP.

Solve for uptime p such that
2240 = 6050p
p = 37%
Stonebreaker is therefore superior if uptime exceeds 37%.

Complicating factors not accounted for:
* Increased white miss/glance rate (vs. yellow)
* Increased critical strike chance of white attacks (vs. yellow)
* This is a best case scenario in WF procs (you will not get 10 MH procs)
* This is a best case scenario in Flurry uptime (you will not have 100%)
By far, the largest of these factors is the exceedingly small probability of getting exactly 10 MH WF procs in a 30 second period. Therefore, this is an overestimate of the required uptime for Stonebreaker to be superior.
I'm not sure that halving all the bonus AP applied to OH attacks is the proper way to approach this. I'm having trouble showing myself exactly why I feel this way, but it seems a bit off.

On that note, why not split the difference and say 5 MH WF procs and 5 OH WF procs, in which case your method would require halving the bonus AP from Astral Winds on OH attacks. This in turn would lower the "total bonus ap" contribution from Astral Winds to 1680.

Either way, I think Panny's method from the OP is closer to reality.
#4611SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
panny
Since the Stonebreaker Totem affects white damage where as Astral Winds doesn't, I needed to work out how much the contribution was. Therefore, melee miss rate affects the Stonebreaker Totems contribution and needed to be calculated. I am no longer sure about the hit cap and the miss rates of dual wielding Shaman, so I left it as a variable while writing out the equation.

After I did my experiments, melee hit rate (miss rate) was the only unknown I had left, so I did the logical thing and solved for it. Rob is correct when he mentions AP being halved on the offhand. However, since it affects both Astral Winds and Stonebreaker equally (1.5 multiplier on both), I didn't include it.

Alot of my calculations are relative and set based rather than absolute because there is alot I haven't verified for myself, not fully sure of and wasn't sure on how to include. (For example, WF proc rate while dual wielding, flurry uptime, hit caps, etc). In these cases, I used values that favoured the Astral Winds because figuring out whether Stonebreaker was an upgrade was my main goal. Figuring exactly how much better it was was more daunting and so I used fuzzy logic for this. I mentioned this in my original post concerning the factoring of spell resist rates (which is just taken as a simple multiplier.)

One thing I did forget to include was glancings and the different crit rates from yellow to white damage (yellow is on a two-roll system so the crit rate will be lower?). These can be pretty easily added if there are commonly agreed values for them.

B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime + B1 + B2 + B3 <====typo in the OP
That should be B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)

Last edited by panny : 11/07/07 at 10:21 PM.
#4612SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by panny
Since the Stonebreaker Totem affects white damage where as Astral Winds doesn't, I needed to work out how much the contribution was. Therefore, melee miss rate affects the Stonebreaker Totems contribution and needed to be calculated. I am no longer sure about the hit cap and the miss rates of dual wielding Shaman, so I left it as a variable while writing out the equation.

After I did my experiments, melee hit rate (miss rate) was the only unknown I had left, so I did the logical thing and solved for it. Rob is correct when he mentions AP being halved on the offhand. However, since it affects both Astral Winds and Stonebreaker equally (1.5 multiplier on both), I didn't include it.

Alot of my calculations are relative and set based rather than absolute because there is alot I haven't verified for myself, not fully sure of and wasn't sure on how to include. (For example, WF proc rate while dual wielding, flurry uptime, hit caps, etc). In these cases, I used values that favoured the Astral Winds because figuring out whether Stonebreaker was an upgrade was my main goal. Figuring exactly how much better it was was more daunting and so I used fuzzy logic for this. I mentioned this in my original post concerning the factoring of spell resist rates (which is just taken as a simple multiplier.)

One thing I did forget to include was glancings and the different crit rates from yellow to white damage (yellow is on a two-roll system so the crit rate will be lower?). These can be pretty easily added if there are commonly agreed values for them.



That should be B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
In that case, I would change the analysis a bit. You can get the %WF, %SS, and %white from WWS logs easily enough. Taking these numbers from the largest sample of my own I have (a night in SSC) gives the following:
A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
From WWS reports over the course of an entire raid night:
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 0.255
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 0.130
Percent_of_white_Swings = 0.615

A: 28.56
B1: 39.27
B2: 14.3
B3: 67.65 * (1 - Missrate)

A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
28.56 = Uptime * (39.27 + 14.3 + [ 67.65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Let Missrate = 19%
Then Uptime = 26.4%

As miss rate decreases, so does the required uptime to break even. An enhancement shaman with +9% hit from talents and no hit rating on gear would see a 19% miss rate against boss mobs, resulting in a required uptime of 26.4%.
Changing some values for more hit gear, we find that even if your miss rate is better than 2% the required uptime is 23.8%. This gives us a fairly good window of possible required uptimes for the Stonebreaker buff over a wide variety of gear, with a good conservative estimate being 30%.

Now what does it take to achieve a 30% uptime? Here’s a simplified formula for determining this.

(Seconds per Shock) = (Stonebreaker proc chance) * (1-Spell miss rate) * (Stonebreaker duration) * (1/Stonebreaker Uptime)

(Seconds per Shock) = (0.50)*(1-0.14)*(1/0.30) = 14.3

This means that on average, a shock every 14.3 seconds is the minimum needed to maintain 30% uptime on the totem buff and thus make it come out ahead of the Astral Winds totem.

Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds.
Edit: In the end, even tweaking the numbers around between the percentage breakdown in the OP, various miss rates, and bad spell miss rates, I always come up with a required shock frequency greater than 12 seconds (i.e. two shock cooldowns). I think that's the important punchline to the whole analysis.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/07/07 at 10:52 PM.
#4613SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by Skiace
In that case, I would change the analysis a bit. You can get the %WF, %SS, and %white from WWS logs easily enough. Taking these numbers from the largest sample of my own I have (a night in SSC) gives the following:
Sure, that's definitely one method of performing the calculations and presenting the conclusions.

However, I've found my own swing percentages recorded by WWS to vary significantly each raid. They're affected by the levels of the mobs you're hitting (did you include trash?), buffs debuffs for each raid (LotP affecting crit rates, Imp. FF affecting hit, etc), travel time in between mobs/damage windows, specific mob mechanics, and just how alert you were. I'd prefer to work out calculations for the base case and modify as needed.

Also, my instinct is to avoid statistics as much as possible. :P

Originally Posted by Skiace
Edit: In the end, even tweaking the numbers around between the percentage breakdown in the OP, various miss rates, and bad spell miss rates, I always come up with a required shock frequency greater than 12 seconds (i.e. two shock cooldowns). I think that's the important punchline to the whole analysis.
If your methodology is sound, I think presenting it this way is very good.
#4614SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Skiace
Originally Posted by panny
Sure, that's definitely one method of performing the calculations and presenting the conclusions.

However, I've found my own swing percentages recorded by WWS to vary significantly each raid. They're affected by the levels of the mobs you're hitting (did you include trash?), buffs debuffs for each raid (LotP affecting crit rates, Imp. FF affecting hit, etc), travel time in between mobs/damage windows, specific mob mechanics, and just how alert you were. I'd prefer to work out calculations for the base case and modify as needed.

Also, my instinct is to avoid statistics as much as possible. :P



If your methodology is sound, I think presenting it this way is very good.
What I'd like to do is take your formula and try out basically the worst case scenario of numbers we can realistically use. This would be close to zero +hit gear and thus a high %WF, coupled with a pessimistic spell miss rate. If this still gives a required shock frequency in the 12-14 second range, I think that should be presented as the proof for the totem's superiority. Of course, eventually it would be great to see it incorporated into Yo's sim as well.

Does anyone have a swing breakdown favoring Windfury more than the one seen in the OP?
(that would be 28.8% WF, 11.9% SS, 59.5% white)

Also, if anyone disagrees with the method I used to determine shock frequency from needed buff uptime, please speak up.
#4615SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Skiace
I'm not sure that halving all the bonus AP applied to OH attacks is the proper way to approach this. I'm having trouble showing myself exactly why I feel this way, but it seems a bit off.
Well, I'm going to have to disagree with you here unless you can show me any reason at all for why you feel this is wrong -- remember that we daily have people feel that hit rating should be valued more highly. Offhand attacks do half damage. Therefore they're worth half as much bonus AP in my calculations.
On that note, why not split the difference and say 5 MH WF procs and 5 OH WF procs, in which case your method would require halving the bonus AP from Astral Winds on OH attacks. This in turn would lower the "total bonus ap" contribution from Astral Winds to 1680.
Yep, as I acknowledged, this is a "best case" for Astral Winds. What you suggest is perfectly reasonable, and I did it last time I did these calculations. I did not do it this time because I also did not factor in white misses or glances (a problem which yellow attacks do not have), and I also didn't factor in yellow attacks having ~5% lower crit rate, but it is trivial to adjust for this single factor if that's what you dislike about this analysis. As you said, Astral Winds becomes 1680 bonus AP. Stonebreaker's WF attacks are also lowered and its AP contribution becomes 10*2*110*1.4*.75 + 18*110 + 18*110*0.5 = 2310+1980+990 = 5280. Uptime required is p = 32%. Not an earth-shatteringly different result.
Either way, I think Panny's method from the OP is closer to reality.
Not sure how that is the case when you suggest that you must only shock once every 14 seconds to make Stonebreaker's superior (a result which absolutely will give sub-50% uptime) and the OP says that shock spam and 52% uptime is required to make Stonebreaker's superior.
#4616SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lethnon
got a question thats a little different...

While roaming WoW, I bumped into an enhancement shaman who claimed that STR had diminishing returns, therefore go AP. Now I know that this thread has always said STR > AP, but is there a point of diminishing returns? I know there are for crit, dodge, defense, etc... but I have never heard of one for a stat. Figured I would go to the pros and ask.
#4617SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Lethnon
got a question thats a little different...

While roaming WoW, I bumped into an enhancement shaman who claimed that STR had diminishing returns, therefore go AP. Now I know that this thread has always said STR > AP, but is there a point of diminishing returns? I know there are for crit, dodge, defense, etc... but I have never heard of one for a stat. Figured I would go to the pros and ask.
Thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard. Str always is 2 ap (kings yadda yadda), and 1 ap is always 1 ap. The only thing i can think of is how, from what I've heard, when itemizing stuff blizz starts applying higher weights to items that have more of one stat (ie 10 str is less expensive than 20 str but is the same as 10 str on 2 diff items) in either case the same rule would apply to ap anyway and the point is moot even if thats what he thinks he talking about.
#4618SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lethnon
I admit... I thought the guy was an idiot. But I thought I would bounce the whole "stats have a cap/diminishing return" thing off yall.
#4619SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3bestpike
Sorry for the irrelevant matter, but i wanted to ask something. On the starter post of this thread, it is stated that shocks are 5-6% of total enhancement dps. Are you sure that this is right?

My calculations show that even before 2.3, and without talents at all, and with only earth shocks we have :

675 damage every 6 seconds= 112 dps. If we factor in 5% base spell crit and the resist chance on a level 73 boss we have about 100dps. Finally adding the SS debuff we go to 120 dps. Now in order for that to be 6% of total damage, your total damage must be. 120/0.06=2000 dps. Which is much higher than a normal raiding shaman can achieve.

So correct me if im wrong, but my numbers show that even in the worst occasions shocks are a lot more of shamans dps than 6%. So maybe we need to reconsider speccing elemental in patch 2.3, where the shock damage will increase greatly, while its cost will be almost free.
#4620SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Rob
Originally Posted by Skiace
Either way, I think Panny's method from the OP is closer to reality.
Not sure how that is the case when you suggest that you must only shock once every 14 seconds to make Stonebreaker's superior (a result which absolutely will give sub-50% uptime) and the OP says that shock spam and 52% uptime is required to make Stonebreaker's superior.
The bolded claim demonstrates the exact the point I've been trying to make. The OP says that you need greater than 52% uptime IF your miss rate is 77%. My whole point originally was that this is a misleading way to present the data, and would lead to people coming to the conclusion you did here.

Using the same exact formula and numbers from the OP, (Panny's method is the same one from the OP that you referenced) but solving for uptime with a more realistic miss rate of 19%, I got a required uptime in the range of 30%, which is where I got the 14 seconds from.

edit: I'm also pretty sure that Thundering Strikes now properly applies to yellow attacks, so they do not see a 5% reduced crit rate. If you have a recent WWS that refutes this, please share.


Originally Posted by panny
However, I've found my own swing percentages recorded by WWS to vary significantly each raid. They're affected by the levels of the mobs you're hitting (did you include trash?), buffs debuffs for each raid (LotP affecting crit rates, Imp. FF affecting hit, etc), travel time in between mobs/damage windows, specific mob mechanics, and just how alert you were. I'd prefer to work out calculations for the base case and modify as needed.
I've found my swing percentages to vary no more than 3% in any given category between raids. This variation leads to a variation in the calculated uptime of less than 2%. If we can find some agreed upon base values I'd love to use them though. Following up on this, even if I bump up the WF swings to 30% (and reduce white swings accordingly) which is significantly higher than the OP values, I still end up with an uptime of 30% for a 19% missrate. I have to go all the way to 37% WF before the uptime dips below 12 seconds per shock. The more I look at it, the more I think 30% uptime is a good conservative estimate.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/08/07 at 5:50 AM.
#4621SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by bestpike
Sorry for the irrelevant matter, but i wanted to ask something. On the starter post of this thread, it is stated that shocks are 5-6% of total enhancement dps. Are you sure that this is right?

My calculations show that even before 2.3, and without talents at all, and with only earth shocks we have :

675 damage every 6 seconds= 112 dps. If we factor in 5% base spell crit and the resist chance on a level 73 boss we have about 100dps. Finally adding the SS debuff we go to 120 dps. Now in order for that to be 6% of total damage, your total damage must be. 120/0.06=2000 dps. Which is much higher than a normal raiding shaman can achieve.

So correct me if im wrong, but my numbers show that even in the worst occasions shocks are a lot more of shamans dps than 6%. So maybe we need to reconsider speccing elemental in patch 2.3, where the shock damage will increase greatly, while its cost will be almost free.
I think shocks are closer to 8-9% in the best case scenario. That's not a whole lot. I average about 1350 dps through all of BT/Hyjal, and on the melee friendly fights between 1650-1850 dps. That number can definitely drop between 5-6%, and if you're not shocking every 6 seconds on the dot, it'll drop even lower. Regardless, elemental is definitely becoming more viable.

If Totemic Mastery is unnecessary in the Sunwell I might be tempted to try it out. Mana is going to be such a non-issue, I will be casting a shock and fire nova totem every cooldown for sure. At that point, talents like Concussion, Reverberation and Call of Flame might actually beat out Nature's Guidance. I doubt it, though. Those talents really are pretty terrible for PVE.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/08/07 at 5:37 AM.
#4622SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan
If you're only using one axe, it should in theory only reflect the dodge rate for that weapon, so for SS purposes you'd want the axe in your MH to get that little extra edge. Kind of depends on how they implement it though.
Actually, it looks like the orc racial applies to both weapons even if only one of your weapons is an axe. With a RT/Syphon combo and no expertise gear, my character sheet shows that I have 5 expertise, with no mention of the bonus being axe-specific. In the 2.3 changes thread, human rogues were reporting that a sword MH/mace OH gave them 10 expertise total.

Could just be a paperdoll error, and it's going to be a pain in the ass to test. For now though it looks like orcs will only need 1 axe to get full benefit of the racial, and it doesn't matter which hand the axe is in.
#4623SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Tornhoof
I don't think the paperdoll is supporting weapon skill specific expertise.
I think the expertise part for axe is handled purely on server, since it basically is not supported designwise. Atleast imho the whole expertise change is to simplify the whole damage calculation, since you basically save a shitload of calculations for max hit cap etc. and you can technically reuse the attack table for both hands.
#4624SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boro
DPS/Damage Done

As you know I do not often post here, but something has been puzzling me for sometime and I think I may be making sense of it so here goes. I am hoping you guys can help make some sense of what I have discovered from WWS parses.

Like all Shaman here I have used the advice and simulators to make informed decisions about gear combinations to maximise my DPS in raids. In my case the simulators always seem to give me higher DPS potential than I actually achieve. I have put this down to the variations in bosses and have really only foccussed on Bosses such as Teron (the more static bosses) to get a good feel for whether I am hitting my potential.

I think like all of us here for whatever reason it matters to be always doing your best and pushing the limits. I live in 90-100% threat land and I love it.

But....I have looked at lots of WWS parses over the months and seen many Enhancement Shaman with better DPS than mine even when I would question the gear selection and or wether the gear is even better than mine. I go to the armoury do a comparison and usually I find I have better melee stats all round or at least comparable. So i kept asking myself what can I do better where am I going wrong....you know like you do :P

I have followed a number of enhancement Shaman as I have progressed through BT and Hyjal, Seb, Stig, Tsalrioth and Grevan. (Stalking the Armoury so to speak)

So after a long intro :-) today I started looking at WWS parses and found some differences I don't understand, but lead me to believe that chasing DPS is not all its cut out to be. In fact I would suggest damage done is important to.

Since most fights are limited by a bosses HP (even ones that heal up etc) we can look at Time to death as being variable. (yes this is obvious I know) and damge need to kill the boss pretty much fixed, if it does increase then so does time to kill. Without exception the highest dps kills on WWS appear to me to be those done in the shortest time. So you see top rating WWS parses for bosses from the likes of Blood Legion and Juggernaut etc. with huge dps values.

What I did was look at enhancement Shaman in these groups and looked at their DPS, discovering that they were ususally more than my DPS for the same boss with similar gear. Some foccused more on haste than me and others more leather...but our melee stats are fairly similar, weapons the same. Closer investigation showed that most but not all are advocates of twisting, either WF/GOA or WF/TA. I do not do this often so in the parses I usually see they use fewer or no shocks whilst my usage is higher.

It was at this point I decided that there must be another reason to account for such large differences. So when looking at Damage Done i started to notice some clear differences. Boss for boss on average I was doing a lot more damage than other Shaman but getting lower DPS figures. But their kills where quicker, their raid make ups different (usually more focussed on melee).

So in summary: I discovered I was doing more damage over a longer period with a lower dps and others are doing more dps over a shorter period. This of course all makes mathematical sense at least to me. I suppose time to kill is a combination of the sum of the parts in terms of DPS potential...certain mixes will get things done quicker and DPS per individual will be higher.

Here are a couple of parses to have a look out:

Blood Legion

Wow Web Stats

My Guild:

Wow Web Stats

Loading...

Finally to conclude, does my logic make sense or am I stating the obvious? Have the stats got the better of me? Does it really matter :-) ? Just really wanted to share this as dps is just a representation of a combination of stats as of course is damage done. Its just what you interpret from them that matters. I felt that I was doing something wrong with my gear selection etc and chased around for ages trying different things.

Anyway apolgies for the long post.
#4625SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3vorda
I'm not sure I fully understand what you'r saying, but I'll give it a shot:

The sim calculated your possible best DPS. Due to the nature of shamans (SR), this DPS should be pretty much sustainable over a longer period of time.

Because your kills take so much longer, you will have more damage done then the shaman you linked. The main difference here is that your group does less damage then their group.

Say you have a mob with 100k hp and 2 dpsers.

In your case:
you - 500 DPS --> 55555 damage
partner - 400 DPS --> 44444 damage

In their case:
Shaman - 700 DPS --> 42424 damage (less then you)
Partner - 950 DPS --> 57575 damage

To clarify: DPS is not -or should not be- influenced by time, but damage done depends on the DPS of other people aswell. With a raid that does significant more DPS, your contribution in that DPS might be lower then in a raid that does less DPS.

In your raid, avg dps per person (including healers) is 667, you almost double that number.
In Blood Legion, avg dps per person is 1065.48, doubling that as shaman is going to be alot harder.
#4626SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
@Everyone talking about the Stonebreaker totem - all I did was copy Panny's derivations. You guys come up with something agreed on that represents it better, I'll update that section.

@Lujaar - that same thread points out that the paper doll is obviously not reflecting how the expertise actually works. The paper doll is just going to sum the expertise, the mechanics in the background are going to actually split the expertise between general expertise from gear, and the racial expertise.

@Boro - comparing WWS between guilds is incredibly difficult. There's a ton of factors that could be involved as far as what debuffs were on the boss, how aggressive they were in pushing the threat window, whether they were using Haste pots and getting Drums, among other things. Twisting as I've found out is incredibly overpowered for one thing - GoA totem is worth a hell of a lot more than shocks according to my WWS parses where I've used it.

Regarding shock % of dps - I just went through 15 WWS parses of top guilds and not a single Enhance Shaman had more than 4% of their damage done from shocks. When I calculated how many shocks were done versus the length of the fight, most of the shamans had about a 20-30 seconds period of no shocks done (warmup period for threat most likely) so they could have done a little bit more, but it certainly would not be pushing much higher than 5-6%.

Last edited by Malan : 11/08/07 at 10:30 AM.
#4627SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boro
Vorda Malan,

Thanks for the points you make. I guess I am assuming that the WWS DPS figure is derived from damage done/time of the fight? So I guess like all things there are many other factors to consider....damn i hate stats :-)

It really is a combination of the sum of the parts then.
#4628SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
WWS by default shows Instant DPS which is not just Dmg/Time. Dmg/Time is Average DPS. Instant DPS is a lot more complicated, it removes all that dead time out of the calculation during fights where you're waiting for the boss to respawn or adds to pop, like on Alar.
#4629SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3xereva
@Boro: Not sure for how much of the difference this can count, but if a boss fight takes longer, a smaller percentage of the fight you will have Heroism/Bloodlust, so your dps will be lower.

Extreme example: With a 40s boss fight, you will have Heroism/Bloodlust 100% of the time, increasing your dps a lot. For a 8 minute boss fight, you will have it only 8.33% of the time, so you will get a lower dps then in a shorter fight.
So if the same boss fight is shorter (because of the rest of the raid doing more damage), your dps will be higher. :-)
#4630SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Boro
@ Malan

I am not sure I understand WWS DPS, so maybe these questions are better in that thread...so tell me to move there if you think so.. but:

Look at my effort on the Shade of Akama

Present from 20:51'16 to 20:51'56 (95 %)
DPS time : 0mn (96 % of presence), DPS : 1845
HPS time : 0mn (62 % of presence), HPS : 98

Damage dealt to foes : 70,116 (7 %)

If i did 70,111 damage in 40 secs I would expect a dps of 1752.

But you say WWS calculates it differently using instant dps, hence the 1845 it shows.

Is this presence related.....1845 * 95% = 1752 (0dp)?

or DPS time 96%?

So what is presence?

The point is I have been using this figure as a benchmark and trying to balance it on what 'type' of boss it is. Maybe this isn't wise?

Is it best to to start combat logging when only in combat? Is there a mod that does this? Would it make a difference to the WWS parses?
#4631SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Presence is the amount of time you're spent "doing something" according to WWS. You can look on the WWS forums for a better explanation of it, but they do something like a check every 5 seconds to see if you performed another DPS or Healing action within 5 seconds of the last action. If you did, you're counted as being active. If you didn't, then you're counted as being inactive.

Comparing WWS/DPS between 2 different raids is really difficult, especially given the totally random effects of Windfury on a shaman's damage. Your DPS figures are going to depend a lot on what your guild strategy is, how good your tank is (TPS), what your group buffs were, etc. Its just not an accurate point of comparison, there are far too many unknowns that are not captured in a combat log.
#4632SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Brum
Boro,

I'm in the same boat as you. Lower dps, more total dmg. According to Recount, the other enhancement shaman in my guild (Draezy) almost always does more dps, but we trade off who comes out ahead in total dmg about 50/50

I attribute it to a couple things - riding the threat cap hard from the get-go (i.e. drop totems before the tank starts building threat), twisting in TA at the start so I don't have to worry as much about a main-hand wf double crit, and twisting GoA the rest of the fight. One thing I don't do is wait until the 3 second WF timer is up to stormstrike. Maybe that would increase my dmg but I choose not to since I'm usually trying to keep an eye on too much other stuff, and because my twisting macros handily coincide with the 10 second SS cooldown

I attribute Draezy's higher dps mostly to his orcness (axe skill and blood fury). His gear is tier six whereas mine is mostly non set items (more agi, less stam) but that doesn't seem to have made a huge difference either way

As far as caring about your dps, I value group buffing over personal dps. I'd love to do more dmg, but we're a support class first and a dps class second. And the best way to fill the support role is by:
1) staying alive
2) doing damage
3) dropping totems
4) twisting

It might suck getting used to twisting, but reduced threat for a group with three twin blades or 5% dodge for a main tank justifies making two macros and using them. So even if your dps is lower than you'd like, at least you know you're doing what you can for the rest of the raid
#4633SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Diogo
WWS has two different stats: presence and dps time. Presence is how much time you spent alive/online in a particular fight, regardless of what you were doing. DPS time is how much time you spent actually dps'ing something. WWS calculates your dps time as being from slightly before you do damage to slightly after (5 seconds I think). The dps it reports, then, is damage/DPS time. The thing is, when analyzing this you have to have common sense.

Two examples, at different levels so people with different experiences can understand:

- Maulgar: my guild used to kill priest> lock >shaman > mage. When we got to the mage, there was little I could do because if I got near him I would die from his AOE. During the mage phase, i could do two things: nothing, which would then NOT be counted as my dps time, and therefore my dps would be higher, but my dps time (and damage) lower; or just throw in a few LBs, in which case my DPS time would be higher, reducing the reported DPS, but increasing damage.

- Vashj: same as above, when rooted away from melee range. Do nothing and have higher DPS or LB and have higher damage, but lower dps.

That is what generally explains the situation described above, of WWS reporting lower DPS but higher damage. This is specially so for melee/caster hybrids, which face the situation described above.
#4634SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan
@Lujaar - that same thread points out that the paper doll is obviously not reflecting how the expertise actually works. The paper doll is just going to sum the expertise, the mechanics in the background are going to actually split the expertise between general expertise from gear, and the racial expertise.
As I read it, that's just conjecture. Unless someone posted test results and I missed them, no one knows for sure how expertise racials work. I'm inclined to believe the paperdoll, as are a few people who posted in that thread, but I don't have any data to back it up.
#4635SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Lujaar
AI'm inclined to believe the paperdoll,
I would vehemently disagree with you on that considering the vast number of tooltips and stats are are incorrect in the game. The paperdoll and tooltips very rarely reflect reality.
#4636SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Solomir
I know the whole 2H vs DW thing has been done before, and the Kael weapon discussion as well, but I just want to put in a few observations I had from some attempts last night.

Devastation hits like a 5v5 assist train.
In my DW focused gear (too much hit, not enough crit), I was hitting for about 1.2k, and critting for around 2.5k. My WF hit for 2k and would crit for over 4k. To put into perspective, My MH WF hits for about 900 and crits for 1.8k.
What if a shaman went to Kael wearing a more 2H optimized set of gear, favoring AP and crit over hit. In my gear setup, there's almost 6% worth of hit rating that is wasted when using Devastation, and my belt offers no skill rating bonus for axes. Would there be a gear level that would make using Devastation competitive to DW for this encounter?
What about the effect of haste and armor penetration, since gear with these stats will also be available next week?
#4637SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Wizkid
Originally Posted by Diogo
WWS has two different stats: presence and dps time. Presence is how much time you spent alive/online in a particular fight, regardless of what you were doing. DPS time is how much time you spent actually dps'ing something. WWS calculates your dps time as being from slightly before you do damage to slightly after (5 seconds I think). The dps it reports, then, is damage/DPS time. The thing is, when analyzing this you have to have common sense.

Two examples, at different levels so people with different experiences can understand:

- Maulgar: my guild used to kill priest> lock >shaman > mage. When we got to the mage, there was little I could do because if I got near him I would die from his AOE. During the mage phase, i could do two things: nothing, which would then NOT be counted as my dps time, and therefore my dps would be higher, but my dps time (and damage) lower; or just throw in a few LBs, in which case my DPS time would be higher, reducing the reported DPS, but increasing damage.

That is what generally explains the situation described above, of WWS reporting lower DPS but higher damage. This is specially so for melee/caster hybrids, which face the situation described above.
I don't think that there is a direct relation between DPS and DPS-time in WWS. The DPS-time will only tell you for how many % of the fight your DPS was applied to the target(s) which indeed results in the total damage done. And the DPS value will only look at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time. When you are not counted as doing damage (5 second rule refered above) your Damage done and your DPS will not change at all but will be stale instead.

Let's do this with your Maulgar example:

- For the first two minutes you are on Priest/Warlock doing 1000 DPS.
- For the next two minutes you are only dropping totems and throwing heals.
- For the last two minutes you will go in on Maulgar also doing 1000 DPS.

All lines report the total WWS if you had cut your logfile at the end of each phase.

Minute 0-2:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 2-4:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  50% DPS time
Minute 4-6:    100% Presence | 240,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  66% DPS time
Now lets change this to you only achieving 500 DPS in the last two minutes on Maulgar (lets say because you are forgetting to SS and shock ) :
Minute 0-2:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 2-4:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  50% DPS time
Minute 4-6:    100% Presence | 180,000 Damage |  750 DPS |  66% DPS time
But what if you get feared for one minute total during the Maulgar part (with the original 1000 DPS though):
Minute 0-2:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 2-4:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  50% DPS time
Minute 4-6:    100% Presence | 180,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  50% DPS time
And what if you use 500 DPS LBs in phase2:
Minute 0-2:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 2-4:    100% Presence | 180,000 Damage |  750 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 4-6:    100% Presence | 300,000 Damage |  833 DPS | 100% DPS time
Or what would happen if you dont idle arround when the others are killing Shammy/Mage but go for Maulgar instead (ignoring that the fight will be a bit shorter due to that):
Minute 0-2:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 2-4:    100% Presence | 240,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 4-6:    100% Presence | 360,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
And last, what if you pick your nose in the middle section instead and the third part only lasts one minute because your caster group got double BL:
Minute 0-2:    100% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS | 100% DPS time
Minute 2-4:     50% Presence | 120,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  50% DPS time
Minute 4-5:     60% Presence | 180,000 Damage | 1000 DPS |  60% DPS time

Last edited by Wizkid : 11/08/07 at 1:43 PM.
#4638SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Solomir
Dual Wield
The main problem is the itemization just isn't there to support it, and the game isn't as kind to 2hers at higher levels of itemization. Even if you skip Improved Dual Wield (admittedly easier in 2.3 with the improvement to Mental Quickness), you can't spend those 3 points elsewhere to improve your abilities since Enhancement is the only tree of the three that has things that affect your melee ability. When it comes to items, the sheer amount of AP and crit that you need to imitate a MS warrior isn't there. MS remains an inferior option for warriors in terms of pure DPS primarily because of the better returns on AP that dual wield offers -- with no awesome debuff like MS it isn't worth it unless you're crossing your fingers for an insta-gib.
#4639SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Lethnon
I admit... I thought the guy was an idiot. But I thought I would bounce the whole "stats have a cap/diminishing return" thing off yall.
Stacking one stat to the exclusion of all others always has "diminishing returns" in two ways:
1) Your DPS will increase by a diminishing percentage for each additional point of the stat you add.
2) The value of other stats will increase with each additional point of the stat you add.

The only exception to this general rule currently in-game is armor penetration, which exhibits constant or possibly increasing returns to scale, due to the diminishing returns granted by armor.

The person you were talking to is still an idiot, because Strength adds exactly 2 Attack Power per point, and adding Attack Power would have the exact same effect on how weapon damage is calculated.

Originally Posted by Skiace
Using the same exact formula and numbers from the OP, (Panny's method is the same one from the OP that you referenced) but solving for uptime with a more realistic miss rate of 19%, I got a required uptime in the range of 30%, which is where I got the 14 seconds from.
Then I think we agree, since the required uptime as far as I see it is ~32%.
edit: I'm also pretty sure that Thundering Strikes now properly applies to yellow attacks, so they do not see a 5% reduced crit rate. If you have a recent WWS that refutes this, please share.
You're correct, Thundering Strikes does properly apply to yellow attacks. They still see a lowered crit rate due to the two-roll system by which the result of yellow attacks is determined. Briefly, suppose crit rate is 30% and combined miss/dodge rate is 10%.

One-roll:
30% of all swings crit, attack table ensures this.

Two-roll:
First roll to see if swing hits: 90% of swings hit and 10% are miss/dodge.
Second roll to see if swing crits: 30% of swings crit.
.90*.30 = 27% of all swings crit.

You can see the effect of this by looking at a wide variety of WWS reports and I'm confident that this effect is why many people still think Thundering Strikes is bugged.

Last edited by Rob : 11/08/07 at 1:50 PM.
#4640SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Wizkid
I don't think that there is a direct relation between DPS and DPS-time in WWS. The DPS-time will only tell you for how many % of the fight your DPS was applied to the target(s) which indeed results in the total damage done. And the DPS value will only look at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time. When you are not counted as doing damage (5 second rule refered above) your Damage done and your DPS will not change at all but will be stale instead.
Huh? What is your point?

" Look[ing] at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time" is exactly the same as damage done/dps time, which is exactly what I said.
#4641SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Solomir
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
The main problem is the itemization just isn't there to support it, and the game isn't as kind to 2hers at higher levels of itemization. Even if you skip Improved Dual Wield (admittedly easier in 2.3 with the improvement to Mental Quickness), you can't spend those 3 points elsewhere to improve your abilities since Enhancement is the only tree of the three that has things that affect your melee ability. When it comes to items, the sheer amount of AP and crit that you need to imitate a MS warrior isn't there. MS remains an inferior option for warriors in terms of pure DPS primarily because of the better returns on AP that dual wield offers -- with no awesome debuff like MS it isn't worth it unless you're crossing your fingers for an insta-gib.
I wasn't asking in the general sense of 2H vs DW, but in the context of the Kael encounter.
I realize that using a 2H for extended PvE dps is not viable. AP/Str is not abundant enough on non-plate gear, and we don't have the talents to support the playstyle either.
But Devastation is an iLvl 175 Legendary weapon. It has a dps value that eclipses any other weapon in the game, and boasts the amazingly slow speed of 3.9. WF is a non-normalized special that has an AP boost AND a 140% damage multiplier, which would mean it has an abnormally large damage return on AP. UR and Flurry uptime may be an issue, but Devastation has a flurried/hasted speed of 2.5, which may be acceptable.
Armor Penetration may grant even larger returns than other stats due to Devastation's high base dmg, but I'm not fully versed in ArPen math to work that out myself.

In a similar vein, I also used Yo's sim to model using the Infinity Blade with WF in the off-hand. My results were a fairly small (read: ~15) drop in dps. Maybe now shamans will have something to actually use besides being delivery boys.


Edit: fixed Infinity Blade comment, I seem to be very forgetful.

Last edited by Solomir : 11/08/07 at 3:47 PM.
#4642SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3PessimiStick
Originally Posted by Wizkid
I don't think that there is a direct relation between DPS and DPS-time in WWS. The DPS-time will only tell you for how many % of the fight your DPS was applied to the target(s) which indeed results in the total damage done. And the DPS value will only look at your Damage per second values during your actual DPS time. When you are not counted as doing damage (5 second rule refered above) your Damage done and your DPS will not change at all but will be stale instead.
Instant DPS and DPS time are directly related.

Total Damage / Presence (seconds) * DPS Time (percentage) = Instant DPS.

Average DPS (you can show this with the config panel) is Total Damage / Presence (seconds)

They won't be perfectly accurate because displayed DPS/Presence Time is imprecise/rounded, but it's pretty easy to see that it does work that way.
#4643SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Sufferings
Hi all. Long time troller, but I don't usually post on here. So many people have so many good ideas that it is just nice to sit back and read.

Anyways, I just picked up a Syphon last night, and have it OH to my Dragonstrike MH. From reading these threads I know that its pretty much a toss up for weapon combos if I want to DW them, get Rising Tide MH, etc. I also know that a slightly faster MH will net more MH procs.

Two questions I have:

1.) Is there a mod that will track the amount of times windfurry has procced on the MH vs the OH? In other words, I want to look back at the end of a night of raiding and see what the split is and maybe try some different combos.

2.) There is a lot of talk about using SS only when WF CD is up, but I am wondering, how many people do that and have seen a good increase in dps? I figure its pretty much not a worthwhile increase or it would be posted, but always good to ask. A few people have talked about their experiences in this, but would like to know how this effects people with my weapon set up (or similar). Thanks!
#4644SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Malan
@Everyone talking about the Stonebreaker totem - all I did was copy Panny's derivations. You guys come up with something agreed on that represents it better, I'll update that section.
In that case, I propose it be changed to the following, though I would still like somone to check my method for converting buff uptime to shock frequency.
A: Astral Winds AEP = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Astral_Winds * Elemental_Weapons
B: Stonebreaker AEP = Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3)
B1: Stonebreaker AEP to WF = Percent_of_WF_Swings * Stonebreaker * Elemental_Weapons
B2: Stonebreaker AEP to SS = Percent_of_SS_Swings * Stonebreaker
B3: Stonebreaker AEP to white damage = Percent_of_white_Swings * Stonebreaker * (1 - MissRate)

Physical Damage breakdown:
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8
Percent_of_WF_Swings = 4.8/16.8 = 0.286
Percent_of_SS_Swings = 2/16.8 = 0.119
Percent_of_white_Swings = 10/16.8 = 0.595
(This breakdown is conservatively in favor of the Astral Winds Totem. Many WWS parses from raids show the balance slightly shifted away from WF towards white swings)

A: 32
B1: 44
B2: 13
B3: 65 * (1 - Missrate)

A = Stonebreaker_Uptime * (B1 + B2 + B3).
32 = Uptime * (44 + 13 + [ 65 * (1 - Missrate) ]
Let Missrate = 19%
Then Uptime = 29%

As miss rate decreases, so does the required uptime to break even. An enhancement shaman with +9% hit from talents and no hit rating on gear would see a 19% miss rate against boss mobs, resulting in a required uptime of 29%.
Changing some values for more hit gear, we find that even if your miss rate is better than 2% the required uptime is 26.4%. This gives us a fairly good window of possible required uptimes for the Stonebreaker buff over a wide variety of gear, with a good conservative estimate being 30%.

Now what does it take to achieve a 30% uptime? Here’s a simplified formula for determining this.

(Seconds per Shock) = (Stonebreaker proc chance) * (1-Spell miss rate) * (Stonebreaker duration) * (1/Stonebreaker Uptime)

(Seconds per Shock) = (0.50)*(1-0.14)*(1/0.30) = 14.3

This means that on average, a shock every 14.3 seconds is the minimum needed to maintain 30% uptime on the totem buff and thus make it come out ahead of the Astral Winds totem.

Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds.
This is still Panny's math as it exists in the OP, I simply solved for uptime at a base talented miss rate of 19%, and added a section about achieving the uptime goal.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/08/07 at 6:55 PM.
#4645SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Grogimer
Originally Posted by Sufferings

1.) Is there a mod that will track the amount of times windfurry has procced on the MH vs the OH? In other words, I want to look back at the end of a night of raiding and see what the split is and maybe try some different combos.
Windfuryfu is one you can use in game. Actually just go to curse and type in windfury and you will get several mods that do this.

Edit: just looked at it and it is only good for main hand windfury so you may want to use one of the others.
#4646SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Sufferings
Originally Posted by Grogimer
Windfuryfu is one you can use in game. Actually just go to curse and type in windfury and you will get several mods that do this.
Ah, nice, I have another fubar Windfury mod I use, got from the Ace DLer. It may be listed in there, just might have missed it. Thanks! Will try that when I get home.
#4647SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Imperator
I don't know if this has been discussed, but is there a point where one would consider giving up DPS for increased armor or set bonuses? I'm getting to the point where I'll have to be deciding to either spend my DKP on say, the Ranger General's Chestguard or the Bloodsea Brigands Vest. The leather has higher DPS of course, but the Chestguard has increased armor and INT.

We know that mana won't be as much of a problem in 2.3, but is there a point where throwing on all leather and going all out DPS is going to hurt you over choosing some mail? Seems like an interesting argument especially in regards to the T5 set. There are better pieces to pick over some of the T5 gear (shoulders as an obvious instance), but the 4 piece set bonus of 5% haste on flurry could make it more worthwhile?

As always, if this has been discussed to death already just flame away because I deserve it. XD
#4648SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
As far as i know there is no actual difference between how offhand and mainhand WF are parsed meaning addon can't differiate them by that. Only way to separate would be to set damage line, not sure if any addon does that. If such addon exists then that line must be set by individual player.
#4649SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Originally Posted by Imperator
I don't know if this has been discussed, but is there a point where one would consider giving up DPS for increased armor or set bonuses? I'm getting to the point where I'll have to be deciding to either spend my DKP on say, the Ranger General's Chestguard or the Bloodsea Brigands Vest. The leather has higher DPS of course, but the Chestguard has increased armor and INT.

We know that mana won't be as much of a problem in 2.3, but is there a point where throwing on all leather and going all out DPS is going to hurt you over choosing some mail? Seems like an interesting argument especially in regards to the T5 set. There are better pieces to pick over some of the T5 gear (shoulders as an obvious instance), but the 4 piece set bonus of 5% haste on flurry could make it more worthwhile?

As always, if this has been discussed to death already just flame away because I deserve it. XD
AEP values are for damage dealing, it does not consider any defensive or sustainable stats.

My recommendation would be to try out Yo simulator, there is option for 4-set T5 i believe. That should give you idea how valuable it is.
#4650SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Imperator
We know that mana won't be as much of a problem in 2.3, but is there a point where throwing on all leather and going all out DPS is going to hurt you over choosing some mail? Seems like an interesting argument especially in regards to the T5 set. There are better pieces to pick over some of the T5 gear (shoulders as an obvious instance), but the 4 piece set bonus of 5% haste on flurry could make it more worthwhile?
There's certainly some utility to those other items, you might consider just picking them up just to bank or carry for special situations, but there's enough top end shaman raiding with nothing but leather to illustrate that the armor and intellect on mail is really not a concern.
#4651SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Hey there.

I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?

Thanks.
#4652SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Droo
Do we have any hard numbers on how much Syphon of the Nathrezim procs affect raid dps by consuming improved shadowbolt charges? It's a big upgrade from my gladiator weapon clearly, but if it's going to be knocking out large amounts of dps from other sources than I'll just have to annoy warlocks with it on trash.

Last edited by Droo : 11/08/07 at 7:45 PM.
#4653SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tchyk
What about HOJ?

Over time I've read through most of this forum, but I can't remember anyone stating whether or not Hand of Justice was still viable.

I have heard its a 1.33% proc at lvl 70 with 20 attack power. Given that the extra swing can proc WF & WF can proc the extra swing, wouldn't that be worth a fair amount of AEP?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=11815&xml

Although the counter-argument would be that Rogues' sword spec increases in dps because of the speed of their off-hand and the attack procing the main hand and we stack slow weapons so a low chance to proc wouldn't happen very often?

300 swings x 1.33% proc rate = 4 extra attacks. Guess if I do the math it doesn't sound as awesome as it was on my Warlord grind back when I was originally enhancement. Just wondering if anyone has done the math?
#4654SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Paradox
Hey there.

I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?

Thanks.
Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond.
#4655SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Paradox
I once remember reading a post on the EU shaman forums where Snorkle posted something about attack speed "sweet spots", I can't really remember much about it except that when you had a certain attack speed you would hit a "sweet spot" and this would be really good somehow. After picking up some haste gear I was just thinking about it and wondered why nothing like this was in the first post, is there anything to it?
Theoretically, the less time between WF cooling down and your next swing the better. A 1.5 second swing should be moderatly better than a 1.6 second swing (and vastly better than a 1.4 second swing) as a result. However, to the best of my knowledge the only testing that's been done was to see if going under 1.5 speed was enough of a problem to care (which it isn't). Flurry means that you won't actually be sitting in the sweet spot all of the time anyway. If you're up to spending a huge amount of time testing it, that'd be awesome, though.
#4656SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Severjanin
Here's the really, really old post you're looking for Paradox. It can be found in the sticky Informative and useful Shaman threads in the eu forums.

Originally Posted by Snorkle
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/984/untitledex3.jpg

A is the point where we are about to hit 1.50 speed, B is the point immediatelly after. As you see, the graphic is not continuous because of the immediate drop in DPS. C is the point at which your DPS is decent again (1.39 in case of a starting speed of 1.51).

Also, here are the "sweet spots" as you named them, for a few different starting speeds, as well as how much DPS you lose as you hit the danger line (in percentage):

Init.Speed - sweet spot - dps lost as you cross the danger line

1.50 - N/A - 0%
1.51 - 1.39 - 8%
1.52 - 1.40 - 7.8%
1.53 - 1.41 - 7.1%
1.54 - 1.43 - 5.6%
1.55 - 1.43 - 5.1%
1.56 - 1.44 - 4.8%
1.57 - 1.45 - 4.1%
1.58 - 1.46 - 3.4%
1.59 - 1.47 - 2.7%
1.60 - 1.48 - 2.0%
1.61 - 1.49 - 1.3%
1.62 - 1.50* - 0.6%
1.63 - N/A - 0%

* - rounding problems >_<...

Also, I've had a great idea about how to look at disphasement. I'm gonna make something about it tonight, for now I'm bloated (family lunch - boring, but lots of food) and can't think straight, need some digestion time. My idea is simple: assuming the normal mainhand speeds of 2.7 and 2.6, for each common offhand speed (2.2,2.4,2.5,2.6) check the average disphasement (distance between an offhand swing and the next mainhand swing), and with this calculate how many mainhand swings in average will be eaten by the offhand. To make it more "realistic" I just assume the chance that one offhand swing proccs wf ASSUMING that swing is not in the WF cooldown. Empirically it really seems to point out that 2.6/2.6 is BETTER than 2.7/2.6. Omg blizzard, do something :P this is getting ridiculous!

Snorkle

Last edited by Severjanin : 11/09/07 at 1:39 AM. Reason: adding how to find original source
#4657SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Leather vs Mail

I'm in the same boat when it comes to leather vs mail... It'd be nice to have some int, as well as more armor, but the leather gear is so compelling.

At the moment, I'm putting serious consideration into buying pieces of leather gear from 2.3 badge rewards:

Gloves
Pants
Bracers
Belt

And I already have a leather BP, and a mail helm with no int.... Leaving me with a whopping one item with INT, T4 shoulders (which I'd replace with Shoulders of the Stranger in a heartbeat).

Yet, with the 2.3 changes, I think I may end up going this route. I'm actually still torn between the leather gloves and the mail ones. My current AEP values the mail ones a tiny bit more, but the gloves + pants yields almost 5% haste, when I currently have none.
#4658SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
Moogle has mentioned this in passing a few times but never elaborated on it. Perhaps we can entice him to respond.
I'm sorry to post a response that is pure fluff, but Malan, I do believe you would have been able to be a writer for Fawlty Towers or Black Adder, having constructed such a response as quoted above.

In fact, this seems sigworthy if I can fit it in...
#4659SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Rob
This is a bit confusing/incorrect. I'd rewrite it as:

In order to convert your Expertise Rating into AEP for purposes of comparison, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 15.8, take the floor, and multiply by 15.8 again. This gives you a "hit rating" equivalency.

But expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8.

Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.

As an example of these calculations, if I have 47 Expertise Rating on all my items, and a hit AEP of 1.6, that equals Floor(47/15.8) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = Floor(2.97) * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 2 * 15.8 * 1.8 * 1.6 AEP = 91.008 AEP.
Ok, so I was thinking about this a bit, going back to our conversation about the 1 roll vs 2 roll system for white attacks vs yellow attacks, and how the crit% stays constant with yellow attacks as expertise changes, but the crit% decreases for white attacks as expertise rises.

We already have Hit Rating AEP accounting for this decrease in white crit % (since hit rating only accounts for white attacks, where we're not going to get any more crits). So, we now need to revalue the yellow portion of the expertise effect based on the extra crits we're going to get thanks to the 2 roll system.

clear as mud?

In algebraic terms...

W = Total White damage%
Y = Yellow damage%
C = Melee Crit %
ER = Expertise Rating
HRaep = Hit Rating AEP

The current formula reads as:
(Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage) * Expertise Rating * Hit AEP
=
[(Y + W) / W] * ER * HRaep

The more-correct formula would then be:
(Y*1+C + W / W) * ER * HRaep


This just makes sense given the 2 roll and 1 roll systems.

Assume a 50/50 white damage to yellow damage breakdown:
If I land 3% more white attacks thanks to expertise, that's the same as 3% more white attacks thanks to hit rating because none will be crits. ER(w) = 1HRaep

If I'm landing 3% more yellow attacks thanks to expertise, and 33% of them are going to be crits, I need to value this 33% more than the hit rating line above. ER(y) = 1HRaep * Crit%

So....
to the example given in the first place, with a 40yellow, 50white, 10shock breakdown, and a new term of "30% crit rate", I'd value 1 expertise rating as:
(Y*1+C + W / W) * ER * HRaep
= [(40*1.3 + 50) / 50 ] * 1 * HRaep
= (52+50)/50 * 1 * HRaep
= (102/50) HRaep
= 2.04 HRaep
For me, I think I'll be doing this, and valuing Expertise Rating as 2*Hit Rating

This sits with my gut much better. Please let me know if I'm being dumb in my conceptualization (or even basic math!) with this post.
#4660SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3bestpike
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I think shocks are closer to 8-9% in the best case scenario. That's not a whole lot. I average about 1350 dps through all of BT/Hyjal, and on the melee friendly fights between 1650-1850 dps. That number can definitely drop between 5-6%, and if you're not shocking every 6 seconds on the dot, it'll drop even lower. Regardless, elemental is definitely becoming more viable.

If Totemic Mastery is unnecessary in the Sunwell I might be tempted to try it out. Mana is going to be such a non-issue, I will be casting a shock and fire nova totem every cooldown for sure. At that point, talents like Concussion, Reverberation and Call of Flame might actually beat out Nature's Guidance. I doubt it, though. Those talents really are pretty terrible for PVE.
In 2.3 the factors that will favor elemental instead of resto as secondary tree are devastating:

1. Free spell damage increases shock dps
2. Convection talent becoming imba reducing the mana cost of earth shock to 128 from 181 with shamanistic focus procced (its -10% off base cost)
3. Free spell damage increasing searing totem by a lot, adding to that the Call of flame talent, we have a searing totem doing probably more than 150dps with the mage debuff. Not to mention the improved aoe abilities, fire nova and magma.
4. Reverberation talent, further increasing shock dps by 20%.
5. 10% less fire,frost,nature damage as a bonus.

The only thing i will really miss from resto is 3% in spells, capping the chance to hit in pvp, and the totem increased range.

Oh and some info: For some reason if Elemental focus procs and then Shamanistic focus procs, the elemental focus buff will be lost, overwritten by the shamanistic. Thus you cant get free shocks . So if you go enhancement/elemental dont put a talent in elemental focus. Thats in PTR ofc, but i dont expect for it to be fixed/changed.
#4661SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Droo
Do we have any hard numbers on how much Syphon of the Nathrezim procs affect raid dps by consuming improved shadowbolt charges? It's a big upgrade from my gladiator weapon clearly, but if it's going to be knocking out large amounts of dps from other sources than I'll just have to annoy warlocks with it on trash.


Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.
#4662SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
One thing i dont get about weapon expertise is why is it divided by 15.8 instead of 3.95 as i thought conversion is 3.95 rating for 1 expertise? It kinda feels it has deen multiplied by 4 twice instead once? 15.8 Expertise rating, or in other words 4 expertise, might give 1% dodge/parry reduction. But that is 4 points, i dont see why would anything be done in 4 point jumps. I would more think it is 1 point expertise (not rating) for 0.25 reduction, or about 4 rating.

For example that rating mentioned where get 2.5 expetise, would not that be reduced to 2 expertise opposed to 0? And concerning example item mentioned in first paragraph, you get 10 expertise rating not 6.

Is this just to get better comparison with hit rating? Or what am i missing here?

EDIT: Small fixes :P
#4663SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by tchyk
300 swings x 1.33% proc rate = 4 extra attacks. Guess if I do the math it doesn't sound as awesome as it was on my Warlord grind back when I was originally enhancement. Just wondering if anyone has done the math?
With a 2.6 weapon those 300 swings represent 13 minutes of combat for 4 extra attacks - and I am not certain that the HoJ is able to proc WF, I thought that was fixed ages ago? Regardless, 4 white hits over 13 minutes doesn't sound like a reasonable DPS improvement over another trinket that would give AP or Crit bonuses.

Disquette - I don't understand what was funny.

Requesting a peer review of this post from yesterday about the Stonebreaker Totem. Need a yay/nay on it. Same with Disquette's post from above about the Expertise values.
#4664SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Atren
Ok, his formula is wrong due to messup with parenthis, real one should be based on his example:

(Y*(1+C)+ W) / W * ER * HRaep

I would say C feels too big effect here for actual intuition based feeling.

Edit: Cleared post a lot

Last edited by Atren : 11/09/07 at 10:18 AM.
#4665SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
He meant to write that like this -
<br />
\frac {Y \times (1 + C) + W}{W} \times \text {ER} \times \text {HR AEP}<br />

If you look at the bottom of his post where he does an example you can see that he does the calculations correctly, he just typed out the formula in a confusing manner.
#4666SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raut
Enhance OH options should be changed to include:

Fool's Bane - Items - World of Warcraft
The Decapitator - Items - World of Warcraft

2.3 changes. Hardly end-game, but removes the need for Al'ar or Arena to get decent OH weapons.

(Sorry if this is already mentioned, I couldn't find any on the last five or so pages)
#4667SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Illundai
Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.
I honestly cannot remember where I saw it said that it did, or who said it...or why I think that.

But if it really does not eat the charges I'll have some happy warriors and enhance shaman...
#4668SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Why would your warriors care if it ate ISB?

@Raut - already noted in the OP from a few weeks ago.
Patch 2.3 Update - Decapitator and Fool's Bane from KZ have been made one-hand and non unique, which will significantly improve early OH choices. Zul'Aman will also feature at least one 2.6 speed fist OH.
#4669SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Ok, on the way home from work i had some chance to ponder about Disquette formula. I think it works, altough there are some near impossible cases it is wrong. Namely if crit is higher than hit then it is wrong.

Also reminder that it is single item value with no truncation. For real use for entire gear you need to sum up and divide by 3.95 (not 15.8 imo) and truncate (i hope that is right term). Then multiply it with 3.95 and use that value in ER place in Disquette formula. That should give you expertise total AEP value over your entire gear. Due to truncation for most accurate determination you need to do over your entire gear opposed by just adding pieces AEP together.

Malan, i think he means us and warriors wont get angry warlocks and shadow priests mob after us :P

EDIT: Fixed minor mistakes.
#4670SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Sorry for the sloppiness last night - I'm glad the intent came through with the example. And you're correct that in the upside-down hit/crit case it will be wrong. I sure hope to be able to have that problem some day
#4671SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
And then you will get it by debuff of -25% to hit or something I would not be suprised if some boss had such ability actually.
#4672SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Atren
and truncate (i hope that is right term)
When you truncate a number, you are considering N digits of the fractional part of the real.

Pi truncated to 3 digits is 3.141.

No rounding is done, truncation is just chopping off the least significant digits. Floor rounds down, Ceil rounds up.

Useless tidbit: When casting a double to an int in C++, it will floor a negative value, and ceil a positive value. Use round() if you mean round, don't cast to an integer type.

Last edited by Ilmatar : 11/09/07 at 3:08 PM. Reason: No coffee yet, said float when I meant real.
#4673SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Torrential
Originally Posted by Malan
Why would your warriors care if it ate ISB?
If it ate ISB they weren't going to use it. Now that we see it does not, they can use it.
#4674SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Atren
And then you will get it by debuff of -25% to hit or something I would not be suprised if some boss had such ability actually.
Banshees in Hyjal. I do not approve of that curse -_-.
#4675SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Accidental double post, Firefox has some bizarre keybindings at times.

Question: I am still elemental (guild needed some more ranged to push through the hump we were in and bring down Gruul, which we did). Tuesday obviously offers me a great opportunity to spec back to my first and only love, melee support.

However, I'm just loving the DPS I have right now. My elemental gear is nowhere near as good as my enhancement gear and my max dps is lower as a result (by about 10%). However, my average DPS, and my dps time, are much higher.

I'm guessing that this is due to the amount of melee movement in fights like Gruul's. I'm wondering if any of the elemental converts out there can tell me at what point of progression into the endgame content your lightning bolts started outpacing your windfury.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/09/07 at 4:34 PM. Reason: Double posts make the baby jesus cry.
#4676SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
• Disquette
Three things on my mind at the moment, for Malan et al currently...

1) Is there any objection to the slightly altered expertise rating stat weight? If not, could that be added to the derivation?

2) EDITED OUT - I just did the tests and saw that the sim does use a 2 roll system, and has the form for yellow damage crit rate:
[(Crit Rate * .944) - 3%] (crit rate times non-dodged, minus three for the level 73 boss effect). I left in this point just in case anyone read the pre-edit post.

3) After my little initial fit about twisting, I put the newer version of the mod up, and have watershield partially read for the 2.3 patch (busy weekend ahead of coding and testing). Would it be possible to link the new address of the mod in place of the old one in the first post? The only difference is that the last 4 digits are 9729 (full address is in my sig).

Last edited by Disquette : 11/09/07 at 3:00 PM.
#4677SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Atren
For real use for entire gear you need to sum up and divide by 3.95 (not 15.8 imo)
Yeah, good point. Sloppiness on my part.

Disquette, your analysis sounds good.

To sum it up, I think we get two relevant equations:

AEP(1 ER) ~= [(1+C)Y + W]/W * AEP(1 HR) ~= 2*AEP(HR)

AEP(Sum(ER)) = Floor(Sum(ER)/3.95)*3.95*AEP(1 ER) ~= Floor(Sum(ER)/3.95)*8*AEP(HR)
#4678SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
Yah, hopefully Yo! will update the sim when he returns, then we won't have to calculate expertise at all as a function of Crit% and HitAEP, it'll just come out of the sim like any other number.
#4679SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Rob
Yeah, we definitely would prefer that to anything else. But hopefully this precursor work will at least be useful for him to figure out how he will calculate the AEP, using a floor or whatever...

I suppose the easiest thing to do that gives somewhat realistic results would be to take the smallest expertise rating chunk that gives N expertise and the largest chunk that also gives N expertise and average across those two values.
#4680SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Imperator
Ok, my math might be off, but are the new items from the badges seriously going to be better than T5 gear?

I was looking at the Vestments of Hibernation which (with my math) worked out to 233.2 AEP if we're valuing armor penetration at .28. Compare that to the T5 chest which works out to 228.8 if you slot in 3 - +8 Str gems.

I was getting the same results for Shallow Grave Trousers > T5 legs.
#4681SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Since neither of them have any sockets you going to need to get your metagem requirements elsewhere. Concerning T5 breast i would go for socket bonus actually with 8 str, 4 str 4 crit and 4 str 6 stam. It would give 3 reds, 1 blue and 1 yellow for any metagem you want.
#4682SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
I'm going to be buying 3 pieces of gear with badges if nothing else changes...

veteran's linked bracers -> master assasin's wristwraps (35% aep upgrade iirc)

veteran's linked sabatons -> nyn'jah's tabi boots (40% aep upgrade iirc)

cataclysm legplates -> shallow-grave trousers (11% aep upgrade)
#4683SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Why go mail at all?

Just thought I'd chime in with my Badge replacements, and ask some input of the community.

My one remaining dilema remains:

Gloves: T4 -> Trickster's Stickyfingers OR Gauntlets of Sniping

Some folks have already mentioned the benefit of having some sockets available, which is where the Gauntlets of Sniping have an advantage. On the otherhand, the Leather gloves have HASTE, which I currently lack (aside from the new badge pants). We're talking an AEP difference (for me) of @ 1. I should be able to manage to support my RED regardless, but what are the thoughts on this glove dilema in general... Haste seems compelling, even though from an AEP standpoint, I'm not really gaining anything either way.

As for the others I'll be replacing:

Pants: Midnight Leguards -> Shallow Grave Trousers
Bracers: Veteran's Linked Bracers -> Master Assassin Wristwraps
Belt: Veteran's Linked/Girdle of Death Dealer -> Waistguard of the Great Beast
Boots: Fiend Slayer Boots -> Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots

The great thing for me, is that I have a crap ton of gear that I'm holding on to in case my AEP weights change a bit, but the new gear is THAT much better than the T4/Kara stuff, that I can turn all that into Void Crystals...

Last edited by Mengus : 11/10/07 at 6:16 AM.
#4684SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Originally Posted by Imperator
Ok, my math might be off, but are the new items from the badges seriously going to be better than T5 gear?

I was looking at the Vestments of Hibernation which (with my math) worked out to 233.2 AEP if we're valuing armor penetration at .28. Compare that to the T5 chest which works out to 228.8 if you slot in 3 - +8 Str gems.

I was getting the same results for Shallow Grave Trousers > T5 legs.
Keep in mind that those vestments are sadly, Druid only. Otherwise I'd be wearing them (; I actually have both Shadowprowler's and BP of the Conniver to use currently.

But yeah, the new badge loot and ZA stuff is @T5 or just under in terms of item budget, but keep in mind there are no set bonuses. Our BPs tend to suck anyway, as blizzard hates us (;


EDIT: Well, per below, looks like the latest incarnation is no longer druid only, hooray!

Last edited by Mengus : 11/10/07 at 12:41 PM.
#4685SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Devnex
Originally Posted by Mengus
Keep in mind that those vestments are sadly, Druid only. Otherwise I'd be wearing them (; I actually have both Shadowprowler's and BP of the Conniver to use currently.
This appears to be no longer the case. Although I've not been able to check the actual item lately on the PTR the "Class: Druid" is missing from the latest wowhead datamine.
#4686SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Weem
Originally Posted by Devnex
This appears to be no longer the case. Although I've not been able to check the actual item lately on the PTR the "Class: Druid" is missing from the latest wowhead datamine.
I just checked on the PTR and it is no longer for Druids only. I updated all the spreadsheets to include them and to also include the Brooch of Deftness even though it seems to be an inferior item to other just as easily available items. I also put all the new badge loots in the "Pre-Raid" spreadsheet as they weren't discernible on Wowhead last I had checked.
#4687SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Disquette
Yah, hopefully Yo! will update the sim when he returns, then we won't have to calculate expertise at all as a function of Crit% and HitAEP, it'll just come out of the sim like any other number.
Sorry to type it but I wont be physicaly able to update sim anytime soon though I would love to.
#4688SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
No worries, as you can see we have a pretty good interim formula. Really glad to see you posting again :-)
#4689SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Disquette
I'm going to be buying 3 pieces of gear with badges if nothing else changes...

veteran's linked bracers -> master assasin's wristwraps (35% aep upgrade iirc)

veteran's linked sabatons -> nyn'jah's tabi boots (40% aep upgrade iirc)

cataclysm legplates -> shallow-grave trousers (11% aep upgrade)
For AEP value % increase, are you performing the following:

New Item = N
Old Item = O

( N / O - 1) * 100 or vice versa?
#4690SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Disquette
If the bracers were 98 for the old, and 140 for the new, it's (140 - 98) / 98 = 42/98 = 43%

(numbers made up, just to illustrate what I was doing).

I actually also looked at the absolute aep difference, and divided it by the badge cost, so that I knew which to get first. With the bracers i got 1.13 AEP / badge, the pants were .20aep/badge, and the boots were 1.07 / badge, so I'll be getting bracers then boots then pants.
#4691SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Weem, few things:

1. I would add Bands of the Celestial Archer - Items - World of Warcraft to wrist in mid level at least.
2. Can shamans make leather goggles as i seem to recall restrictions? I am not engineer myself.
#4692SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tokageroh
Math about ele/enhance and elemental devistation

There is much controversy over this subject so im going to provide some math so that others may draw conclusions.

First some Constants:
Earth shock is at 675 dmg base
Flame shock is at 797 dmg base (377 initial + 420 spread over 4 ticks every 3 secs)
Frost shock is at 658 dmg base
6% average spell crit base
700 spell dmg gained from patch 2.3 (2300 ap)
10 sec shock rotations with the reverberation talent
12 secs rotations w/o it

Debuffs put on mobs:
Curse of elements 10% base 13% with talents (fire and frost only)
Misery 5% more spell damage
Scorch 15% more damage (fire only)
Winters chill 10% spell crit (frost only) (will assume the same as 10% more damage)

Bonus damage for X from debuffs:
Earth shock - 1.26 ( for 2 hits with stormstrike + misery)
Flame shock - 1.36 ( coe/maladiction + misery + scorch)
Frost shock - 1.30 (coe/maladiction + misery + winters chill)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets start off with The elemental devastation talent.
current understanding and math shows this:

Flame shock /earth shock rotation
(9%/10secs) * (6% crit chance / time {180 secs this time}) = .92% crit chance constant

But consider this a Flame shock / Frost shock rotation (includes winters chill)
(9%/10 secs) * (16% crit chance / 180 secs) = .295
(9%/10 secs) * (6% crit chance / 180 secs) = .092
(.295 + .092) / 2 = 1.75% constant crit gained

A frost shock only rotation:
(9%/5 secs) * (16% crit chance / 180 secs ) = 5.18% constant crit gained

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The next section will compare Ele/Enh shamans shocks and shock rotations with winters chill


Earth shock only (pre 2.3):
(675 / 6) * 1.26 = 141.75 dps (no reverb/concussion)
((675 * 1.05) / 5) * 1.26 = 178.6 (inc reverb/concussion)
Earth shock only (post 2.3):
(((700 * .428) + 675) /6 ) * 1.26 = 204.66 dps (no reverb/concussion)
(((700 * .428) + (675 * 1.05)) /5 ) * 1.26 = 254.10 dps (inc reverb/concussion)

Flame shock only (pre 2.3):
(587 / 6) * 1.36 = 133.05 dps ( 587 dmg due to loss of 2 ticks of the dot effect) (no reverb/concussion)
((482* 1.05) / 5) * 1.36 = 137.65 (482 dmg due to loss of 3 ticks of the dot effect) (inc reverb/concussion)
Flame shock only (post 2.3):
(((700 * .67) + 587) /6) * 1.36 = 239.36 dps (no reverb/concussion)
(((700 * .67) + (482 * 1.05)) /5) * 1.36 = 265.22 dps (inc reverb/concussion)

Frost shock only (pre 2.3):
(658 /6) * 1.30 = 142.56 dps (no reverb/concussion)
((658 * 1.05) /5) * 1.30 = 179.63 dps (inc reverb/concussion)
Frost shock only (post 2.3):
(((700 * .428)+ 658) /6) * 1.30 = 207.48 (no reverb/concussion)
(((700 * .428)+ (658*1.05)) /5) * 1.30 = 257.53 dps (inc reverb/concussion)


****** Will add more in the morning ********
#4693SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Pitbuller
"Winters chill 10% spell crit (frost only) (will assume the same as 10% more damage)"
If you dont want go 31/30/0 spec spell crit modifier is only 150%.
#4694SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Atren
Weem, few things:

1. I would add Bands of the Celestial Archer - Items - World of Warcraft to wrist in mid level at least.
2. Can shamans make leather goggles as i seem to recall restrictions? I am not engineer myself.
Nope, limited to the mail only goggles, though, 3 T5 ish helms for ele, enh, resto aren't bad.
#4695SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
"700 spell dmg gained from patch 2.3 (2300 ap)" is gear dependant - some will gain over1000

Lets start off with The elemental devastation talent.
current understanding and math shows this:

Flame shock /earth shock rotation
(9%/10secs) * (6% crit chance / time {180 secs this time}) = .92% crit chance constant

But consider this a Flame shock / Frost shock rotation (includes winters chill)
(9%/10 secs) * (16% crit chance / 180 secs) = .295
(9%/10 secs) * (6% crit chance / 180 secs) = .092
(.295 + .092) / 2 = 1.75% constant crit gained

A frost shock only rotation:
(9%/5 secs) * (16% crit chance / 180 secs ) = 5.18% constant crit gained
Please explain where your formulas come from.
AFAIK the proper formula is 9%*(1-(1-0.06)^(10/5)) for earth/fire rotation with -1s talent:
There are 2 shocks in 10 s period each with 0.94 chance not to crit that is 0.8836 total chance not to crit or 0.1164 chance to crit in any 10 sec period yelding 1.05% "crit chance constant"
For flame/frost it becomes 9%*(1-0.94*0.84)= 1.89%,
Frost/frost -> 9%*(1-(1-0.16)^(10/5)) = 2.65% (loosing badly to 3% melee and spell hit from resto tree).
There is aditional big assumption (affecting your last section too) that one is able to shock on every cooldown which is not possible because of the GCD overlaping with SS sometimes and abilities that are used with SR such as trinket activation, orc/troll racial, potion, drums... On top of that there is human reaction time and net lag. And there is spell miss/resistance system in place that you did not include. These are some of the reasons why no one is achieving close to 200 dps now and no one will achive 300 dps post 2.3 with shocks only. In fact average dps from shocks on wws is about 50-70.

Here are pure theorycraft ideas for elemental devastation boost:
Shaman version of Darkmoon card stacking only spell crit on melee & spell non-crits
Increase spell crit on melee crit instead of mana cost reduction for our new talent
Searing totem critical shots counting as shaman's
FT weapon imbue crits triggering it

Last edited by Yo! : 11/11/07 at 10:12 AM.
#4696SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Wolflord
Furthering the problem: in any resonable talent build you will only be able to take 2/3 Elemental Devestation. And for any reasonable amount of leather gear youll be looking at a much lower spell crit rate, mine is below 4.2%.

Despite all that I am itching to go back to suicide spec for a few weeks.
#4697SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gehenna
Devistation

In addition, it would be hard to justify purchasing 3/3 elemental devistation. Where would your third point come from?

Tiers 6-9 are all basically requisites, and to even get 2/3 you would be taking 1 point out of imp weapon totems.

Although i like the idea, you must account for these factors aswell.

Edit: you beat me wolf.
#4698SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3• Weem
Originally Posted by Atren
Weem, few things:

1. I would add Bands of the Celestial Archer - Items - World of Warcraft to wrist in mid level at least.
2. Can shamans make leather goggles as i seem to recall restrictions? I am not engineer myself.
Spreadsheets have been updated. Can't believe I missed those bracers! I also wasn't aware about the restrictions on the goggles (thanks Mengus on the confirmation). Thank you for bringing both of those to my attention.
#4699SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tokageroh
Please explain where your formulas come from.
AFAIK the proper formula is 9%*(1-(1-0.06)^(10/5)) for earth/fire rotation with -1s talent:
There are 2 shocks in 10 s period each with 0.94 chance not to crit that is 0.8836 total chance not to crit or 0.1164 chance to crit in any 10 sec period yelding 1.05% "crit chance constant"
For flame/frost it becomes 9%*(1-0.94*0.84)= 1.89%,
Frost/frost -> 9%*(1-(1-0.16)^(10/5)) = 2.65% (loosing badly to 3% melee and spell hit from resto tree).
There is additional big assumption (affecting your last section too) that one is able to shock on every cooldown which is not possible because of the GCD overlapping with SS sometimes and abilities that are used with SR such as trinket activation, orc/troll racial, potion, drums... On top of that there is human reaction time and net lag. And there is spell miss/resistance system in place that you did not include. These are some of the reasons why no one is achieving close to 200 dps now and no one will achieve 300 dps post 2.3 with shocks only. In fact average dps from shocks on wws is about 50-70.
The whole point of my theorycrafting was to prove a point that under perfect conditions ele/enhance is viable. Also proving that there was a calculation that was not included in previous (winters chill). Which may change up the best shock rotation. From Flame/Earth shocks to Flame/Frost or just Frost only.

The formulas i was using was essentially the same as on the original post from what i could gather. Some things i was not aware of in the formulas so i omitted them.
#4700SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3◊ Malan
Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?
#4701SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?
#4702SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.
#4703SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tokageroh
Even if you aren't riding the threat threshold right now, we've said time and time again that if you start using Frost Shock you will be right on that tank's ass, if not over the line. What fight from KZ to T6 content is going to allow you such "perfect conditions" to make that build viable? Does one fight with perfect conditions justify the other 20 or so that don't?
When it comes to threat the tanks we have are really good (either that or i cant generate enough threat after layen down my totems). I think the only fight that might make the build viable would be tidewalker, but just barely.




Originally Posted by Sebudai
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's
shock rotation.
Tell that to my class leader whos suicide spec...... i do more dmg then him but he still goes on about how horrible my dmg is *sigh*
#4704SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Rob
I think the only fight that might make the build viable would be tidewalker, but just barely.
Tidewalker has a worse threat-limiting component than anything besides Hydross in SSC/TK as far as I know... so I'd have to disagree there.
#4705SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
I just looked up how Omen/Threat handles Frost Shock and its listed as a 2x modifier for threat, so Dmg done x 2. So again, probably not something you want to be doing every 6 seconds. Even if you're only getting a low 529 frost shock that equates to (529 x 2)/6 = 176 TPS before your salv modifier. Obviously more once you factor in spell damage.
#4706SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3aroma
Originally Posted by Rob
Tidewalker has a worse threat-limiting component than anything besides Hydross in SSC/TK as far as I know... so I'd have to disagree there.
We have a feral druid tanking Tidewalker and it's pretty much impossible to pull aggro from him, even without salvation. Warriors seem to have a much harder time tanking this encounter, so if you have a warrior tank you might be right.
#4707SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Malan
I just looked up how Omen/Threat handles Frost Shock and its listed as a 2x modifier for threat, so Dmg done x 2. So again, probably not something you want to be doing every 6 seconds. Even if you're only getting a low 529 frost shock that equates to (529 x 2)/6 = 176 TPS before your salv modifier. Obviously more once you factor in spell damage.
Omen might be underestimating by quite a bit. I remember old Earth Shock being a 350% modifier. It's possible that they changed it when they moved the threat bonus to Frost Shock, but probably worth testing.
#4708SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gehenna
frost shock

on many fights, under certain conditions (CoE, Ice Mage, Nature Damage caster) i rotate frost shock and flame shock with no agro problems; however, frost shocking on 5 second intervals would most likely change that.
#4709SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Illundai
With my aggro, I cannot fathom one fight in the whole game where I can just happily frost shock. Akama excluded for obvious reasons. I'd just pull aggro, there is no way in hell I can Frost Shock on every cooldown. I sometimes end up using Frost Shock on Mother Shahraz when she decided to be frost vulnerable, but hey I'm in resist gear on that fight anyhow, it'd surprise me if I could pull aggro on that -_-.
#4710SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Illundai
I sometimes end up using Frost Shock on Mother Shahraz when she decided to be frost vulnerable, but hey I'm in resist gear on that fight anyhow, it'd surprise me if I could pull aggro on that -_-.
Pretty much the only reason to frost shock ever right here. Other than Illidan parasites or demons.
#4711SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Alrighty, mod updated for watershield. I know it's not as fancy as what we'd talked about, but after using a few different options, it seems the most effective and simple. Please let me know about any bugs. You can use it pre 2.3, but it will make the most sense when it comes out.

PS, many thanks to Rava about this. He knows why :-)
#4712SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Updated your link on the first post and I'll get to some of the other stuff to update on Monday.
#4713SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Thanks a bunch! By the way, one of the reasons I settled on the WS graphic that I did was your input on that other thread - there should be no doubt when you need to recast it, and hopefully it's relatively unobtrusive (yet visible, for pre-pulls) when you're at full mana but it's not active.
#4714SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Never frostshocked seeing that the added threat ain't good to my personnel health & also having earthshock on a higher Damge/Mana ratio puts frostshock on the last of my dps cycle if it ever gets there.

You can also add having a ghoul running after ya in MH guys to the few exceptions <== Still remembers kitting one all over the place until a druid tank took it off him. Think it was for about 40 seconds worth of running with an angry shaman screaming at the tanks all the time.
#4715SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3tufy
Originally Posted by Bragor
Never frostshocked seeing that the added threat ain't good to my personnel health & also having earthshock on a higher Damge/Mana ratio puts frostshock on the last of my dps cycle if it ever gets there.

You can also add having a ghoul running after ya in MH guys to the few exceptions <== Still remembers kitting one all over the place until a druid tank took it off him. Think it was for about 40 seconds worth of running with an angry shaman screaming at the tanks all the time.
You only got chased by ONE Ghoul? I get that all the time, thanks to allmighty Chain Lightning

Anyway. problem with Earth Shock imo is burning Storm Strike charges. Since Frost Shock generates extra threat, that leaves Enhancement Shamans with Flame Shock if they want to maximize the raid damage. Unfortunately, that also lowers their own personal DPS. Meh, SS should have been 12s permanent 10% increase for nature and it would have been fine.
#4716SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Atren
Flame Shock is not weaker damage than other shocks, especially after 2.3 when more fire mages around with mage damage tax removal. And unless your elemental shaman (or in this case you :P) is moving around then by time your shock cooldown is over you should be able to fire Earth Shock without taking charge.
#4717SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Disquette
Alrighty, mod updated for watershield. I know it's not as fancy as what we'd talked about, but after using a few different options, it seems the most effective and simple. Please let me know about any bugs. You can use it pre 2.3, but it will make the most sense when it comes out.

PS, many thanks to Rava about this. He knows why :-)
I just tried it out, and I can't get rid of the water shield bar. I set wshieldbox to off, wshieldbar to off, and wsalpha to 0, and the bar still shows up. Am I missing something?


Last edited by Skiace : 11/12/07 at 2:52 AM.
#4718SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by tufy
You only got chased by ONE Ghoul? I get that all the time, thanks to allmighty Chain Lightning

Anyway. problem with Earth Shock imo is burning Storm Strike charges. Since Frost Shock generates extra threat, that leaves Enhancement Shamans with Flame Shock if they want to maximize the raid damage. Unfortunately, that also lowers their own personal DPS. Meh, SS should have been 12s permanent 10% increase for nature and it would have been fine.
With either CoE or Imp. Scorch, Flame Shock is better DPS than Earth Shock, even if Stormstrike is up. And it's more reliable that you'll get the damage debuff effects too.
#4719SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Shakkha
Originally Posted by Gehenna
on many fights, under certain conditions (CoE, Ice Mage, Nature Damage caster) i rotate frost shock and flame shock with no agro problems; however, frost shocking on 5 second intervals would most likely change that.
Question is, why are your mage Frost Spec for anything else than PvP ?

To make that somewhat viable, you'd need a shitty spec mage, a warlock gimping his damage by using CoE, as at least up to next patch all the mages are most likely to be arcane, so just one lock doing CoS for them and the locks is enough, by having someone CoEing for your dumb forst mage and your frostshock maniac shaman, you're losing his damage from coa or cod which would be largely superior to the damage bonus of frost shock; and a enhancement shaman with an extremely non versatile spec.

So yeah, in some limited situation, with 2 other classes gimping their damage, through pvp spec and loss of curse damage, an enhancement shaman can get a slight dps upgrade! I'm not really impressed!
#4720SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Raut
(Sorry for the redundant linking of the two Kara weapons, Malan. I just checked the links and the last pages of text.)

2.x/2.y Weapon Speed Combinations
A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes no difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.
I do not completely agree. I've been trying to prove this with math, but as many others, the concept of dealing with time and two variables affecting each other has made me give up making this a final function. Instead I'll try to explain this in layman terms(since it's the best I can do).

My theory: You want the slowest weapon in OH due to it silencing the MH less. For lesser speed differences, like 2.6 vs. 2.7, the added damage from hitting harder with MH is lost due to OH silencing MH more often. I have no theory on which speed range this includes as a 2.2 speed MH will lose a lot of damage in SS and WF, but a 2.2 OH will silence the MH a lot(thus removing MH WF procs).

I did some sims with Yo! to have some empirical "proof" to point to:

Yo! run with default values, but 1000 hours, 1550 AP, haste set at 0% and both weapons set at 97.5 DPS. First value MH speed, second OH, last DPS:

>2.6,2.2 - 899
>2.2,2.6 - 899
>2.8,2.2 - 909
>2.2,2.8 - 908

Worst/best case speed scenario. Does not support my theory.

>2.6,2.6 - 920
>2.6,2.7 - 925
>2.7,2.6 - 924
>2.6,2.8 - 928
>2.8,2.6 - 930
>2.7,2.8 - 933
>2.8,2.7 - 935
>2.8,2.8 - 940

Ad hoc theory: The 2.8 swing seems to be a kind of sweet-spot most likely caused by the added damage from SS and WF-procs surpassing the missing WF swings cause by added OH silence.

I ran most of these test three or four times to see the DPS span, but nothing major came up. I don't think the guide should be updated with the table above, but maybe something better than MH speed == OH speed? If you were able to modify the swing timer on a blank weapon with the correct stats, you would pick 2.8 as speed(as it is the current max).

This theory(with it's self-destructing ad-hoc addition) may be just fluff in the grand picture as the following shows:

>2.6,2.6(+50AP) - 931

50 AP is not a lot and by using two 2.6 weapons over Syphon of the Nathrezim, you should be able to match or surpass the DPS, but 50+ AP does not scale. The 2.8 speed will. It is less total swings in a silence window and higher SS and WF strikes.

Once again, sorry if this has been brought up(as I am sure it has), but the 180+ pages are close to impossible to parse all at once. I'm not sure if any of this should affect the guide any more than the "slow is good" part that is mentioned already. What do you think?
#4721SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Since there were no objections I have updated the Stonebreaker derivation as per this post.

Disquette - I'm not really understanding how you are proposing that I alter the Expertise AEP section.
#4722SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Deathmvp
I have been reading this form for a long time and I want to say it is the best for info.

I do have 2 question with the 30% of ap equaling spell damage and healing though.

1) since you will get 30% more damage on your totems and shock would that make Potance (20 sts or 40 ap =12 damage and heal) better then crusader your you damage out out?

2)Unless I am reading it wrong that change will make str and attack power worth more and I will have to add like a extra .1 on the stat weight right?
#4723SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
Aezoc
Originally Posted by Skiace
I just tried it out, and I can't get rid of the water shield bar. I set wshieldbox to off, wshieldbar to off, and wsalpha to 0, and the bar still shows up. Am I missing something?
Similar problem here. Setting alpha to 0 does work, but only until I recast water shield, at which point it displays again. It seems to be ignoring the wshieldbar setting.

Last edited by Aezoc : 11/12/07 at 11:35 AM.
#4724SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Gehenna
yes

Originally Posted by Shakkha
Question is, why are your mage Frost Spec for anything else than PvP ?

To make that somewhat viable, you'd need a shitty spec mage, a warlock gimping his damage by using CoE, as at least up to next patch all the mages are most likely to be arcane, so just one lock doing CoS for them and the locks is enough, by having someone CoEing for your dumb forst mage and your frostshock maniac shaman, you're losing his damage from coa or cod which would be largely superior to the damage bonus of frost shock; and a enhancement shaman with an extremely non versatile spec.

So yeah, in some limited situation, with 2 other classes gimping their damage, through pvp spec and loss of curse damage, an enhancement shaman can get a slight dps upgrade! I'm not really impressed!

Well Shakka, I've recently joined a new guild; however, I've often played through raid content with PvP specced people. This includes frost mages, and although they may be "gimping" their overall damage doing so, they are present on the raid non-the-less.

In addition, I often raid with 0/21/40 warlocks who typically keep up curse of elements on the raids targets, whether this "gimps" their damage or not, I am not aware of. I was always under the impression that having a non-affliction warlock on a raid keeping up CoE against a raid target when on average we'll say 3 people can take advantage of it was well within the spectrum of useful.

In my scenario, I gave these variables, if I am going to keep up a shock rotation of flame shock, every other 6 seconds could place me stealing a stormstrike counter from an elemental shaman (if present) or, take advantage of the debuffs accordingly.

I am confident the choice in these situations is not only viable, but optimal.

I'm not implying that frost shock is worth a raid creating this situation, just saying that it does occure withing the world of warcraft.

Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.
#4725SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Wolflord
Originally Posted by Gehenna
Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.
Enh/elem is and always has been viable, it just wasnt, and probably still isnt, optimal. Personally though I feel that the gap has closed enough to tempt me back to it, as i feel it is a lot of fun.
#4726SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Yuck, very sorry. Please try the updated mod version (done this AM, added additional checks to respect the wshieldbar toggle).
#4727SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Gehenna
Furthermore, i wish that enhancement/elemental was viable, and do plan to test it for personal use after 2.3.
Viable for what?
#4728SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
Disquette - I'm not really understanding how you are proposing that I alter the Expertise AEP section.
Here's the OP:
Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40+50)/50 = 1.8. Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. In the example above, with a 30% melee crit rate: If we assume that shocks/searing totem are 10% of damage and white damage is 50% of damage, then this ratio is (40*130%+50)/50 = 2.04.

Finally, we must multiply by the AEP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into AEP.
Our final expertise calculation is:
<br /> \text {AEP} = \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{15.8} \rfloor \times 15.8 \2.04 \times \text {Hit AEP} <br />*

*For a shaman with 30% crit. Adjust the 2.04 number for yourself per the formula above.

Last edited by Disquette : 11/12/07 at 3:27 PM.
#4729SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Ok and what changes do you want made to that?
#4730SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Disquette
Oops, that was sloppy of me. I changed the OP in the quoted part to include my version. I'd love it if Rob or other people could give it a once over to confirm the wording.
#4731SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Dukanull
This whole suicide spec discussion is hurting my head, I want to get elemental devastation, but I can't live w/o the 3% hit and the totem range. I have a hard enough time keeping all 3 totem buffs on all 5 of my party members on mobile fights, and I don't even twist. I can't see this spec ever being bettter than our current enhance cookie cutter build.
#4732SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3rava
I dropped Imp Ankh for 2 points in Concussion. I can't justify the points in Ankh anymore and with shocks gaining 1k+ spell damage in raid scenarios/less mana constraints it should do alright.

The thing that I'm confused about and haven't really been able to figure out is how Concussion actually plays in. I assumed that it wouldn't show up on the tooltip and just affect the damage, but it's changing the tooltip. Is the talent like terrible pre2.0 Healing Light where it only affects the base damage?

Sorry for the scrubass question, no in house elemental shaman and wowwiki has nothing about it.
#4733SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
The elemental shaman thread says that +Dmg is affected by Concussion.
#4734SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by rava
I dropped Imp Ankh for 2 points in Concussion. I can't justify the points in Ankh anymore and with shocks gaining 1k+ spell damage in raid scenarios/less mana constraints it should do alright.

The thing that I'm confused about and haven't really been able to figure out is how Concussion actually plays in. I assumed that it wouldn't show up on the tooltip and just affect the damage, but it's changing the tooltip. Is the talent like terrible pre2.0 Healing Light where it only affects the base damage?

Sorry for the scrubass question, no in house elemental shaman and wowwiki has nothing about it.
I'm considering doing the same thing come 2.3. I cant justify the 3% hit for melee and spells loss and I like the extra range and melee damage change. I kind of assume that since spellhit is one of the best scaling stats for casters, it is probably better for us to pick up what we can of that rather than a few more points in the elemental tree.
#4735SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Bragor
Well would you take 5% increase in shocks damge 15% in fire totems, 1 Second less on shocks Over 3% hit for spells and melee, 30 Yard totems & Improved Ankha ?

I didn't do the numbers yet but I would definitely be staying Enhancement/Resto seeing that the benefits are much more viable in a twisting raiding enviroment.

Improved Totem Range = Less repositioning totems = Less mana spent.

Improved Ankha = Used it at the last boss ? No worries it will be ready at the next one.

3% Hit = Only way to increase our Spell hit if we are going enhancement which generally means 3% increase in shock damge.
#4736SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3Ilmatar
It's safe to say that we'll spend at least 45 points in Enhancement, leaving 16 points left over. Elemental as a second spec has always struck me as something that, while incredibly shiny, is a red herring. 5% more damage to shock spells is quite nice, but the % of your DPS that comes from shocks (~5%) is somewhat marginal. Reverberation is very attractive, especially with the new totem, however using the same logic, 3% spell hit is also very attractive.

Elemental Devastation is not, in my opinion, something which is worth going for. It's 15 points deep into the Elemental tree, and it works off of stats which we don't put any emphasis on at all. Yes, 3% melee crit is fantastic, but (and I'm judging this off my last two Gruul runs, TK last night was...horrible) I am looking at ~10% of my Flame Shocks miss, and only 3% of them crit. Speccing 15 points into Elemental so that 3% of the time I can gain 3% more melee crit is, in my mind, a waste. Especially considering that my FS miss would now be in the ~13-14% range, which would effect my use of the new totem, I don't see it as the spec for me. I'm going to probably be 0/45/16.

I think the other thing to consider is that we aren't Enhancement Shaman to wave around a nice blue-colored epeen on the meters. (Well I'm not, at least) We have a significant support roll. I don't think that a chance to get 10s of sightly increased crit rate, and better shock damage, is worth 10yds in totem range, 3% hit, and more health/mana on Reincarnate.
#4737SourcePosted onPatch 2.2.3♦ Malan
Even with spell damage we have already conclusively shown that Elemental Devastation is not viable for any circumstances. The up time for the buff is stupidly low. Discussing value of shocks vs resto stuff, yah ok. That's worth talking about. But elemental devastation should just be off the table, period.
#4738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
For expertise use 3.95 opposed to 15.8 for maximum accuracy. Otherwise looks Ok if fix the formula display as its broken in post.

AEP = [(White + Yellow * (1+Crit)) / White] * [Floor(Exp_Ra/3.95) * 3.95 ] * Hit_AEP

I think thats the final formula?
#4739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shakkha
[quote=Gehenna;545198]I was always under the impression that having a non-affliction warlock on a raid keeping up CoE against a raid target when on average we'll say 3 people can take advantage of it was well within the spectrum of useful.

In my scenario, I gave these variables, if I am going to keep up a shock rotation of flame shock, every other 6 seconds could place me stealing a stormstrike counter from an elemental shaman (if present) or, take advantage of the debuffs accordingly.

I am confident the choice in these situations is not only viable, but optimal.[quote]I didn't meant this in an aggressive way btw. But to explain better the situation, yes it could occure but that occurance is largely due to basically, no offense to them, other people screwing up.

Frost mage are very very very bad for raid dps. If that option is viable only because some other raid members make poor spec decision, i don't see how you can call that viable honestly, because i don't see 3 people taking advantage of COE, unless you mean you as an enhancement shaman, but honestly, the frost damage bonus is very marginal compared to the loss of Curse of Doom.

Although next patch, a bunch of mage will probably return to Fire, since the combine changed of TLC and MSD might very well means the end of the Arcane mage, which might mean the return of CoE, much to the joy of our Flame Shock damage. I am no mage, so i cannot tell if it will be a definitive change.
#4740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
One thing about expertise is that single item efficiency in it depends a lot in entire gear efficiency. And it, just like hit, has a cap. I guess best thing before actually adding is to see what everyone would like to state about expertise, i will start i guess:

Efficiency. Lets say have Vashj belt and Hydross shoulders for total of 35 expertise. That is so inefficient kinda as 31.6 is the effective expertise. Now lets add Brooch of Deftness and we get 56 expertise. While in singular it might not seem so efficient then we get effective 55.3 expertise rating.

Cap. Important to notice is 5% dodge with 1 expertise reducing 0.25% dodge gives 5 * 4 * 3.95 = 79 expertise rating ceiling for it. With orc that ceiling is actually 79 - 5 * 3.95 = 59.25 => 60 expertise rating. Extra expertise will not improve from behind, but from front parry is supposedly higher than 5% so it would still reduce that.

Another important note here is that formula assumes no parries, if we consider parry as well then AEP would be doubled until dodge is eliminated. Due to this it is by far best stat for shamans tanking by dps assuming healing wont be problem as no mail has expertise rating. That is not likely to change as well due to fact hunters do not benefit from expertise rating.
#4741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Edgemaster's Handguards - Items - World of Warcraft
#4742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Wait a moment, did they add 19 hit rating beside expertise there? Is that a bug or something?
#4743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Breathe
Hi all, i'm sort of in a twist atm and was hopeing to get a answer here or at least a little light shining on it.

It hooks up onto the GOA<>WF part of the OP and i was always following it until recently the physical DPS (melee/hunters/tanks) started asking/debating about it.
Our typical raid setup is 7/8 physical dps (1/2rogues, 1/2hunters. 1/2dps warrs, 1/2feral druids, 1/2hunters and sometimes 1 enhancement shaman (me) in any mixed and matched setup.
Me beeing Enhancement specced is usually when im either to lazy to spec back resto or when we got enough healing power.
Party setup is then me, 1dps war, 1hunter and either 2 rogues or 1 rogue and 1 feral druid (the non tanking one).
Basicly your standard recipe for dropping WF+SOE totem and lets knock some socks.

But, sometimes im paired with this one hybrid MM/SV specced hunter with 3/3 expose weakness.
He always asks for the (imp) agi totem, and he gets backuped by this one dagger rogue who seems to like his poison procs better then a wf proc and/or the feral druid.
The warrior/sword rogue combo insist on WF.
I usually drop the spelldmg totem and tell them to shut up and let me decide which totem because they are afteral my totems


Now, i'm in this selfish twist tbh.
When i drop the agi totem it gives the physical dps (and tanks) a 24.2AP (88+kings/4) buff and the rest of my party some nice crit extra.
When i drop WF totem only the DPS war and the sword rogue take a DPS buff, the dagger rogues sticks with his posions and the druid/hunter/me get nothig out of it.

The hunter has 800+agi and with elixir/food/scrolls/buffs he gets in around 1k agi wich is a almost permanent buff of 250AP for all dps/tanks (if i read the talent right)
Now, i'm not a maths master but isn't there any point at wich dropping the GOA totem for a surv hunter beats the WF totem for only the DPS war/sword rogue.


Maybe this was covered already, but i spent the last hour+ diggin thru 190pages of replies in this topic and trying the global search for "hunter+surviva+agi+totem" and "hunter+survival+goa".

For the ones that don't know the 3/3expose weakness talent a heart.

It gives the hunter a 100% chance (3/3) on a crit to apply an Expose Weakness effect. EW increases the AP of all attackers against the target with 25% of the hunters agi for 7seconds.
And with almost or more then 40% crit raid buffed you crit far more then once per 7seconds so its almost constantly up.

Atm i stick with WF totem, but when the warrior dies i switch to agi in a snap (when there is time).

is there anything conclusive to say about this or is it just as black/white as the OP says?
#4744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Jerem
No matter what has been said about it, or that it might disappear soon, totem twisting might be the answer to your problem.
Do not make a choice between GoA and WF ... just use both.

If you need to make a choice, I'd say drop WF only.
After all, your SV hunter does not need to be in the melee group to make them benefit from EW (it is not a group buff, it is a target debuff).
This might be a major group re-thinking for your raid, but I strongly believe nothing really beats WF as long as you have an offensive warrior in your group (I think the OP also contains a link where this is mathematically demonstrated).

And I also think your poison-loving rogue is wrong.

Last edited by Jerem : 11/13/07 at 10:01 AM.
#4745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Disquette I am updating the Expertise section now with your changes. Would it be correct if I said that in order to compare NewItem to CurrentGear, one could do this - ExpertiseCalculation(NewItem + CurrentGear) - ExpertiseCalculation(CurrentGear) ?

Would it be useful do you think to produce some graphs of how the value of Expertise changes based on changing % of Crit, White and Yellow DPS%?

Also, I would like to propose that we consider changing the term 'AEP' to just 'EP' to stand for Enhancement Points, since the term AEP was derived from the hunter/rogue Agility Equivalence Points and doesn't really make much sense.

Last edited by Malan : 11/13/07 at 10:19 AM.
#4746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dukanull
Haste potion

Been doing some extensive searching this past week and been bugging the rogues in my guild as well and I can't seem to find an answer.

In regards to haste potions, is it better to pop them on CD, or once procs/buffs are up. My melee group usually gets cycled 3-4 lusts a fight, I have a DST and I use the ashtongue talisman. Is it worth it to wait for DST/Power Surge/Lust all to be up to pop a haste potion even if it means waiting 20-30 seconds after the cooldown comes up?
#4747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
In regards to haste potions, is it better to pop them on CD, or once procs/buffs are up. My melee group usually gets cycled 3-4 lusts a fight, I have a DST and I use the ashtongue talisman. Is it worth it to wait for DST/Power Surge/Lust all to be up to pop a haste potion even if it means waiting 20-30 seconds after the cooldown comes up?
If you've got manually triggered buffs, activating everything at once is the way to go. If they're random procs you're probably going to be better off waiting for only one before using a consumable since it may take too long for all of them to be up.
#4748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Breathe
Originally Posted by Jerem
No matter what has been said about it, or that it might disappear soon, totem twisting might be the answer to your problem.
Do not make a choice between GoA and WF ... just use both.

If you need to make a choice, I'd say drop WF only.
After all, your SV hunter does not need to be in the melee group to make them benefit from EW (it is not a group buff, it is a target debuff).
This might be a major group re-thinking for your raid, but I strongly believe nothing really beats WF as long as you have an offensive warrior in your group (I think the OP also contains a link where this is mathematically demonstrated).

And I also think your poison-loving rogue is wrong.
Well, i kind of remember that there was a calculation about added WF dps/dmg on a dps warrior. But either the OP is reworked and it isnt there anymore or my memory fails me.

I tried totemtwisting using Disquette's mod (wich is great for watching the WF timer) but in the end it costs insanly amounts of mana and time and i just didnt like it.

What i'm thinking about is is the fact of giving 9/10 ppl (7/8 physical dps+2/3 tanks) 24AP extra (thats the added value of GOA totem ontop of EW) and 5 ppl 88agi+kings (we always have kings) wich is a nice crit% for most melee classes not a better use of my totem then just 2 raiders who get extra swings (dps warr+rogue).

Ow, and i think the toothpickwielder is wrong to, but if it makes him happy.
#4749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
Originally Posted by Breathe
Well, i kind of remember that there was a calculation about added WF dps/dmg on a dps warrior. But either the OP is reworked and it isnt there anymore or my memory fails me.
Indeed.
The calculations (that were made with WF proccing from "yellow" damages) lead to something like "depending on this warrior's stuff, WF totem will equal to between 100 and 200 more DPS for him alone" I think.
At least, it's an obscene 3-digit number that made me believe WF > GoA.

Even if that number is optimistic, it still ends up being more raid-dps than a total of 240 AP divided among 10 people. In my own opinion, that is.
#4750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah those links were removed because of the changes to WF totem making them invalid. Disquette only managed to do some limited testing on the 2.3 server so I don't think he got the full run of results he had hoped would settle this.
#4751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Haha, Frost Shock is definitely not a viable option for a shaman's shock rotation.
It can be viable. Tanks get expertise for more TPS and we get 15% more aggro reduce. But we'll see. Anyway if there is no frost mage in the raid it's not worth using.
#4752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bubbahoof
A question about totem threat -

Flame totems generate their own threat - mobs attack the searing totem instead of the shaman casting it.

How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.

I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
#4753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Bubba: I did some non-conclusive testing and my feeling was, after it, that it does not effect my TPS. My threat is very spikey anyway, and with no +heal the totem was pretty weak. (This is why I say it's non-conclusive)

Edit: Actually, I have used it with a bunch of +heal. When we were doing some Karazan farming runs to gear some of our younglings, I was trying to see how much I could get it to tick for, so I equipped heal gear, popped ZG trinket (best trinket evar) and dropped the totem. It was ticking for >100 and I saw no noticeable threat increase for the fights.
#4754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Bubbahoof
How about healing stream totem? Does the shaman or the totem get extra threat for the healing done? With the new + to spell damage, I'm thinking it might be useful to drop healing stream totem in the future, but I wonder how that should effect my threat.

I am very excited about the 30% threat reduction coming, so I'm hesitant to add new sources of threat when I am about to finally stop being threat capped.
Remember that heals are 50% threat of the effective healing done. A healing stream totem, even with 700-1000 spell damage, is not going to be a significant contribution of threat.
#4755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.

Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.

On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
#4756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0morgenday
hiyas, i use enhancer to calculate my AEP in game, just updated it today on the 13th before the patch, although i don't think it takes the new armor ignoring stat into account. if anyone knows just curious if i have to calculate that manually or if the mod does it for me. thanks!
#4757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
It reduces dodge/parry/block. Mobs can dodge, even from the back. You can take a look at WWS parses to observe this too. (I could be wrong, but I believe it's a 5% chance to dodge, 360 degrees)
#4758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Expertise reduces dodge and parry . Parry is frontal only. Boss mobs have 5.4% dodge and 5.4% or higher parry.
#4759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.

Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
#4760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Durigen
There's alot of talk about Totem Twisting. It's a very powerful tool that I have been starting to ween myself off of. The reasons are based around the simple statement that is now on the first page of this guide.

Twisting has it's days numbered. The Dev's are aware of it, and plan to be taking steps to end it. If that is the case, then I would prefer not to supernaturally inflate raid performance only to have it come down . Of course my raid understands this point and agrees. But if the crutch is going to be yanked out from under ya, gotta start learning to walk without.

On a seperate note; I see that Weapon Expertise is being given a series of values. Aren't those values based entirely on attacking your opponent from the front? Chances of attacks being parried from behind is zero. Am I correct?
That sounds like the lazy man's eckscuse, "they're going to nerf it so I'm not going to bother doing it". There was nothing in this patch to prevent it and I doubt there will be in any future patches until they revamp the totem system. A nerf to the duration/application of the WF buff can't realistically happen because the game in it's current form is balanced around arena.

I hardly consider twsiting a crutch, it's probably the easiest thing that you can do in a raid. It takes little to no attentiveness(hey look a purple bar), and while the "ficksing" of having wf/goa or wf/ta out at the same time will result in a net loss of raid dps I see zero reason to not abuse the system while you can.

As far as the ele/resto subbing, it will be totally playstyle/raid specific. I don't ever see myself putting less than 14 in resto, but I can only think of a handful of times(including progression) where I have ankhd. The only times I really die are when the shit hits the fan and ankhing would be pointless. If you pay attention to threat, your hp, your surroundings, and your potion/healthstone/bandage cooldown survival should be a nonissue making imp reincarnate useless.(imo!)

Last edited by rava : 11/13/07 at 3:51 PM. Reason: my ecks key is broken
#4761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ultima88
Shocks

Hi all,

I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.

Thanks in advance.
#4762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by ultima88
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.
Run Demon and watch the debuff count. Don't flame shock when you're at 35+ debuffs. Earth shock otherwise and he can suck it up with less aggro for him. I'm sure he can catch up anyway.

There's no reason to listen to bullshit about pushing off buffs if you aren't near the cap at the time anyway.
#4763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
#4764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
Shouldn't the argument around elemental/enhance versus enhance/resto revolve around the 5 second CD on shocks versus the +3 hit, more than anything else? Sure the +5% increase in shock damage in nice... I guess. The 10% decrease in mana cost is okay, maybe less important now in 2.3, but the 5 second CD is an increase of 20% in the amount of shocks you can cast. If + melee hit is a non issue since you can get all you need from gear and +6% from the talent. Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
If you guys don't want to believe what has been run into the ground please go and respec. Your loosing 6% to hit because you will loose 3% to your spell hit and 3% to melee which alows you to hit cap your melee specials so you can somewhat ignore to hit from equipment and gems. Overall dps is higher with this build. It was before the patch and it is after the patch. They have already run the numbers. This question has gotten as bad as people coming in here and asking what to hit number should they shoot for.
#4765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.

Last edited by Malan : 11/13/07 at 6:01 PM.
#4766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Aren't we only comparing, for damage sake (I know 30 yards is nice on totems), +3% to hit on your shocks versus +5% more damage and +20% more shocks?
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
#4767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
No, there's also 3% more hit on your white damage associated with Nature's Guidance. 3% of 5% plus 3% of 40% [which is generously low] is better than 25% of 5%.
I'm not saying I'm not on glue here, it's just my damage usually breaks down a little different.
50% white
30% WF
10% shocks
10% SS
1% Romeo Poison

Now this was before I read the first page here. I had 216'ish +hit and only +6% from talents. (I need to do some testing and then I'm sure I'll agree with everyone else.) It's just that I read from here that +hit basically is the last stat to work on and then I read that this patch is all about increasing shock damage.
#4768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tokageroh
Originally Posted by Unaz
Welp, started looking at my talent builds today so I know what to spec tonight, and I'm leaning towards this: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I hate the less then 50% filled talents though. I currently run with 5 points in concussion, as the alternatives don't seem to help much in a raid environment. The alternatives usually being totemic focus/anticipation/imp LS.

Here's an elemental hybrid option: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
It's pretty close for me, although I'm still fairly sure the 3% hit from resto will still have it beat by a noticeable margin. The utility of 1 more second off shocks is handy, and possibly on par with the increased totem range. (I view the first 8 points in resto as a waste anyway, so the expensive shock talents come out to a wash in that regard) If elemental had a low tier shock crit option (maybe instead of concussion), Elemental Devastation would be a lot more viable.
I too had thought about this spec but I haven't had the time to do the math on it. Anyone else care to test/theorycraft it?
#4769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Xaanix
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP. In eyeballing the changes from low raid to mid raid ratings, it appears like haste rating became significantly more valuable than before.

Of all the gear that gives high raid exclusive stats (armor pen, haste), it appears that only fists of mukoa will actually outshine other high raid alternatives with normal stats like agi/crit/hit/ap.

I'm also interested to know how AP/Str will be weighted now that 2.3 is live. My intuition tells me that crit will be valuable early on, but once you have around 30% crit unbuffed, you'd probably want to favor AP a bit more because of the boost in shock/totem damage.

Based on this intuition, I intend to replace my low end crit based trinkets with AP related trinkets in the near future.

Last edited by Xaanix : 11/13/07 at 10:49 PM.
#4770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
An alternate look at the benefit of Elemental Devastation:

(Source, values for level 70)
1% hit = 15.76 hit rating
1% crit = 22.08 crit rating

3% hit = 47.28 hit rating
3% crit = 66.24 crit rating

Using the EP numbers from the first post (~T5+):
3% hit = 66.192 EP
3% crit = 132.48 EP

Without doing any further math it should be clear, at this point, that it is not going to work-out in favor of Elemental Devastation.

In order to get the 3% crit for 10 seconds, you have to crit with a shock. You will get 12 shocks per minute, with Concussion. Your base spell crit chance is 5%. (Most likely it will not be noticeably more than that with int, so lets leave it at 5%) This puts Elemental Devastation at 0.6ppm, best case, and totally ignores the effects of spell-misses.

132.48 EP * 0.6ppm * 1/6 (10sec on buff) = 13.248 EP

This is abysmal. Even ignoring n00b errors, which I'm sure I made in those calculations, it should be clear that Elemental Devastation is not a good investment of spec points.
#4771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
20% increase? I would have thought higher...

The 5 second shocks and 5% damage boost increase your shock DPS by 40%.
5 second shocks allow a 4 shock/20 seconds repeatable attack sequence with Stormstrike
(ie. [in format time/spell] 0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 6.5/ES, 10/SS, 11.5/FlaS, 16.5/ES, 20/SS, repeat]
With 6 second shocks, the rotation goes as follows:
(0/SS, 1.5/FlaS, 7.5/ES, 10/SS, 13.5 FlaS, 20/SS] as the last shock would slow your SS rotation. (in general, my SS damage is higher or close to equal to my shock damage, so I would put SS as a more important rotation to keep up)
As such, with 6 second shocks, you only get 3 shocks every 20 seconds, on a repeatable attack sequence...
This added to the fact that you are getting 5% extra damage on all shocks means that you're getting the benefit of (105+105+105+105/100+100+100) = 1.4 = 40% extra damage.
Now it would depending on whether your shocks benefit you for more than 7.5% of your total DPS, and also would obviously have a lower effect on people who hold their SS's for when WF is off the cooldown. Yet again, that in itself brings about it's own mixed benefits/losses...

And if looking at a pure comparison of the two specs, then the small static extra bonus of ~10 DPS on searing totem is there too :P
#4772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Xaanix
I'm curious if there are any work/predictions on high raid stat weights which are sadly absent from the OP.
If someone wants to do the finger work of producing an Average T6 AP/Crit/Hit/Weapons set and then run a *lot* of yo's sim against those numbers then we can get some EP values for it. Otherwise, I'm content that at the high end a shaman can figure it out on their own.
#4773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Complete
Best Shaman PVE Max DPS build in 2.3??
#4774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes, and we have comprehensively shown, time after time that the 3% Hit is better.

I think I'm doing this right - If shocks with a 6 second cooldown are 5% of your DPS, than a 20% increase from the 1 sec cooldown means that shocks are now 0.05 * 1.20 = 0.60. Take that 6% and increase it by 5% shock damage and now your shocks are 0.06 * 0.05 = 6.3%, a 1.3% improvement.
Take 3% Hit and apply it to your white dmg, typically 50% of your damage and you get a 1.5% improvement, and that's just accounting for the White dps, not the specials and not the 3% spell hit either.

It is not some vast coincidence or conspiracy theory that 90%+ of Enhance shaman are specced into resto.
So with my numbers:
Shocks = 10% dps so 20% increase = 1.2*.1 = .12 + 5% more damage = .126 or a 2.6% increase in damage.
3% more hit to 50% damage (assuming no diminishing returns because of too much +hit) = 1.5% more damage from white.
3% more hit to 10% shock damage = .3% more damage from shocks.

It looks like 2.6% increase for better shocks versus 1.8% increase for more hit. Plus my comparison actually favors the +hit since I'm assuming my observed 10% from shocks. My shocks would go down without the 5 second CD. Plus I think it's going to be even more exaggerated with 2.3 when I'll get +525 to +825 bonus damage (depending on procs) from talents.
#4775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.

In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks.
#4776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.

In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks.
Doesn't that hurt the argument of 3% hit is better?
#4777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
Doesn't that hurt the argument of 3% hit is better?
No, it does not. You're claiming that you will see a further increase of X by speccing elemental, but you already are elemental. By not taking 3% hit you are artificially reducing your amount of white damage contribution and inflating your shock damage contribution, which makes your basis of comparison (i.e. 10% shock damage) a fallacy.
#4778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
@ Disquette:
That looks good for expertise in the OP.

@ Malan:
Yeah, EP as Enhancement Points sounds fine. I'll start using that terminology.
#4779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
You know why your breakdown has 10% of damage coming from shocks? It's because you're already specced Elemental as your secondary tree.

In reality you're boosting your contribution from shocks from around 5% to around 10% by virtue of your current spec, which makes a comparison such as you're doing completely invalid. If you spec with 0 points in either elemental or restoration, you will not see 10% contribution from shocks.
Actually, my shock DPS varied between 7-9% of my total damage while enhance... depends on the fight and the raid make-up...

Well if your shocks are X% of your DPS, white averages at about 50%.

NG is 3% on (50+X)% and the ele talents are 40% on X%... hence your breakeven point would be about X=4.05%.

If you wanted to take the bonus instead to be about 30% if you wanted to take account the missing DoT ticks from flaming (over-reducing damage there I believe, though I haven't calc'ed it out yet), your breakeven point would be X=5.55%.

If you really wished to be pedantic, you would probably consider the searing totem (and if you actually bothered the miniscule bonus from 1 point in ED if you were going for the pure DPS instead of taking the extra -3% elemental damage taken) when considering the DPS of the ele talents...
#4780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Imperator
Switched Gloves of Dextrous Manipulation for Gloves of the Searing Grip which have expertise.

The only difference for me (with my gem selection for meta requirements) was a drop in crit from 27.38% to 26.69%, a .69% drop in return for 4 Expertise rating which works out to exactly 1% dodge/parry reduction.

Not a math whizz, but I think it's a nice improvement.
#4781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ChaguraED
No More Glass Joe first Posts

For all the First-time posters.

Please Stop Arguing that ED/elemental points are better with the Theorycrafters.
Run Yo!'s sim on the first post. You can decide between having ED or not, the hit from nature's guidance, and 30% AP as spell damage.

This has all been covered repeatedly in the previous pages
#4782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by ChaguraED
For all the First-time posters.

Please Stop Arguing that ED/elemental points are better with the Theorycrafters.
Run Yo!'s sim on the first post. You can decide between having ED or not, the hit from nature's guidance, and 30% AP as spell damage.

This has all been covered repeatedly in the previous pages
Fairly sure haven't mentioned ED apart from that small point in the last post about if you were looking to spend your last of the 16 points in ele and you wanted the miniscule benefit of 1/3 ED (lawl).

As for the finer points of elemental? I still don't see anything definite on the difference between shock DPS boosting vs. the +hit still.
#4783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Laet
Basically the difference is if you don't go and get the 3% to hit out of Resto, you're going to have to itemize some +hit gear. I don't know if it's worth it honestly, but everyone seems to be saying no. Or am I completely misunderstanding?
#4784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Laet
Basically the difference is if you don't go and get the 3% to hit out of Resto, you're going to have to itemize some +hit gear. I don't know if it's worth it honestly, but everyone seems to be saying no. Or am I completely misunderstanding?
I think it's practically impossible to gear yourself without getting at least some small amount of +hit...

Even a small amount will max it out for your SS/WF amounts.
#4785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
vorda
Originally Posted by LionsFist
I think it's practically impossible to gear yourself without getting at least some small amount of +hit...

Even a small amount will max it out for your SS/WF amounts.
Which is exactly why Moogle only applied the 3% hit bonus to white damage.

Really, noone here is going to stop you from speccing in elemental if you want to, you'r just not going to find any math to convince the theorycrafters here to follow your example. Not to mention the obvious practical loss of totem range.

Last edited by vorda : 11/13/07 at 9:54 PM.
#4786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gartixxar
for expertise I did some calculations on my shoulderpads of the stranger with my crit being 28% and hit rating valued at 1.6 and since my total expertise is 10 with the base model for rough estimates and the Aep of the 10 expertise came out to about 32...can anyone verify this?
#4787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Floor(10/3.95)*3.95*(40*1.28+50)/50*1.6 = 2*3.95*2.824*1.6 = 35.69536 EP

Resto vs. Ele: You won't convince me to drop 10 yds of range from my totems for maybe a 1% damage increase.
#4788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Gartixxar
Originally Posted by Rob
Floor(10/3.95)*3.95*(40*1.28+50)/50*1.6 = 2*3.95*2.824*1.6 = 35.69536 EP

Resto vs. Ele: You won't convince me to drop 10 yds of range from my totems for maybe a 1% damage increase.
Thanks alot...it was a very rough calculation It was close enough for me though..where the 3.95 come from?

Last edited by Gartixxar : 11/13/07 at 10:22 PM.
#4789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
3.95 expertise rating = 1 expertise.
#4790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Wait now I'm confused since you have me using 15.8 in the OP.
#4791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Gartixxar
well in game..it says 5 expertise rating=1 expertise..I myself am very confused as well and I haven't read a whole lot on expertise rating..I skimmed it...so I should go over it again and see what I missed >.<

Last edited by Gartixxar : 11/13/07 at 10:12 PM.
#4792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Vashj belt gives 25 eckspertise rating and gives me 6 eckspertise.
#4793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Wait now I'm confused since you have me using 15.8 in the OP.
That's my bad, although I corrected it a couple pages ago, it didn't make it into the OP yet. Change both instances of 15.8 to 3.95.
#4794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lorka
Expertise rating works the same as weapon skill rating not hit rating
#4795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0bestpike
Undoubtetly, if you spec enh/ele and shock in every cooldown your dps will increase significantlly. But what im wondering is, will i have the luxury to shock in every cooldown or i will take aggro?
#4796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Asking for some math help.

2 tests on Blasted Lands mob.

1st test: Netherbane MH and Umbral Shiv OH (95.6dps) with 17.81% hit, 29.86% crit, and 1996 AP. 1mil dmg done with 860dps 60% white, 28% WF, 11% FT.

2nd test: Netherbane MH and Merci Axe OH with 17.62% hit, 30.25% crit, and 2029 AP. 1mil dmg done with 950dps 59% white, 41% WF.

I know larger samples are more accurate. However I only wanted a preliminary run to see some basics, because I want to do a real test with full Raid buffs and with real weapons. I will run a more closely accurate one later with my Rising Tide MH and with Netherbane/Umbral Shiv in OH.

Now the numbers seemed too close to me. Were I to work in some haste gear and drop down to a 1.5 speed OH the FT would jump. Also I run closer to 2600 to 3k+ AP now fully buffed depending on group makeup and paly's available.

How much FT dmg do you lose to spell hit penalties? Is it a full binary resist? My spell crit is 6.something raid buffed I think. What % of the FT dmg can I really count on in a raid so I can run the rest of my tests and find some accurate info?

I'm not saying FT is better. However I am saying I'm not going to take a sim as the Bible's truth. Any math help to give me guidelines or testing parameters (such as test mobs outside of BL or total dmg done minimums, etc) would be greatly appreciated.

Also how do I calculate the extra dmg being done because of my MH only using WF cooldown? Do I just time it then and with x time for both WF and FT test see what happens? Run the test by timed variables, and not total output? Thanks.
#4797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Originally Posted by bestpike
Undoubtetly, if you spec enh/ele and shock in every cooldown your dps will increase significantlly. But what im wondering is, will i have the luxury to shock in every cooldown or i will take aggro?
We did ZA tonight man and I've never taken my Prism from Vashj off since I got it due to agro. Tonight I did not use the trinket at all - I never went OOM one time and I non-stop shocked and never took agro. You gotta be smart to not go nuts on the first 5 seconds to 10 seconds of a boss like usual, but the threat change now is so amazingly different it's awesome! You can full shock rotate easy.
#4798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob
Resto vs. Ele: You won't convince me to drop 10 yds of range from my totems for maybe a 1% damage increase.
Im here with you Rob. Not in all fights you are in pure melee group. +10 yards tremor at Archimonde ftw

Edit: Morning spelling.

Last edited by Neithan : 11/14/07 at 4:21 AM.
#4799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by vorda
Which is exactly why Moogle only applied the 3% hit bonus to white damage.

Really, noone here is going to stop you from speccing in elemental if you want to, you'r just not going to find any math to convince the theorycrafters here to follow your example.
Might have to come up with some of my own then...

In this, I'm comparing the following two specs, and the benefits of 16 points in each tree considering enhance now basically requires 45...
Ele/Enh: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator
Enh/Resto: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator

Restoration Tree Damage Buffs:
- Nature's Swiftness: 3% Spell and Melee hit.

Elemental Tree Damage Buffs:
- Concussion: 5% LB/CL/Shock damage.
- Call of Flame: 15% increased Fire totem damage.
- Reverberation: 1 second decreased Shock cooldown.


Point to be made about % of damage dealt by shaman through shocks:

Base ES damage: 658-692.
Base FlameS damage: 377(+422 DoT)
WCS: no raid buffs/16% resist rate.
(Ignoring the following that would buff this even further: CoE, Scorch debuff, excess SS charges, misery)

Now using base stats only:
- Presuming shocks going off every 6 seconds(FS/ES rotation): 1474 damage per 12 seconds base. DPS: 1474*0.83/12 = 101.95.
- Presuming shocks going off with 6 seconds cast in 3shock/SS cycle 20sec cycle(FS/ES/ES): 2149 damage over 20 second cycle. DPS: 2149*0.83/20 = 89.18.

So in worst case scenario, but still presuming you can actually shock on time, your DPS from shocks will be ~90 DPS. That in itself would mean that if your shock damage is 5% of your total damage, you would need to be putting out 1.8k DPS in a Utopian world.


Best situation gained by Enh/Resto:

Presuming the following:
- Mental Quickness --> Raid buffed 2300 AP --> 700 +spell damage
- CoE /w Malediction (13%)
- Scorch (15%)
- Misery (5%)
- NG giving only 14% miss rate on shocks.

- Presuming shocks going off every 6 seconds(FS/ES rotation):
Flame Shock:(((.67 * 700)+797)/12)*1.36*0.86 = 123.39 DPS
Earth Shock:(((.42 * 700)+675)/12)*1.18*0.86 = 80.93 DPS
Hence total shock DPS = 204.32 DPS
- Presuming shocks going off with 6 seconds cast in 3shock/SS cycle 20sec cycle:
Flame Shock: ((.67 * 700)+797)*1.36*0.86 = 1480.71 Damage
Earth Shock: ((.42 * 700)+675)*1.18*0.86 = 983.34 Damage
Flame Shock (missing 2 ticks of DoT): (((.15*700)+377)+(((.52*700)+420)/2))*1.36*0.86 = 1022.23 Damage.
Hence FS/ES/FS is the best 3 shock rotation.
Total DPS: (1480.71+983.34+1022.23)/20 = 174.31 DPS

DPS with NG = ((0.08*700)+58)*1.36*0.86/2 = 66.67 DPS

Best situation gained by Ele/Enh:

Presuming the following:
- Mental Quickness --> Raid buffed 2300 AP --> 700 +spell damage
- CoE /w Malediction (13%)
- Scorch (15%)
- Misery (5%)
- 5% extra damage on shocks.
- 5 second shock cooldown.
- 17% miss rate on shocks.

- Shocks on 5 second cooldown...:
Flame Shock(missing 1 tick): (((.15*700)+377)+(((.52*700)+420)*3/4))*1.43*0.83 = 1252.22 Damage
Earth Shock: ((.42 * 700)+675)*1.25*0.83 = 989.23 Damage
Flame Shock(missing 2 ticks):

[top] 1252.22 - 229.38


1022.84 Damage
Best shock cycle in this situation (with those buffs) is Flame shock/Earth shock.
DPS of this = 224.14 DPS

Searing Totem also does 15% more DPS in this situation, which is:
DPS with Call of Flame = ((0.08*700)+58)*1.57*0.83/2 =74.28 DPS

Summary

Ele/Enh Shock DPS = 224.14
Ele/Enh Searing DPS = 74.28
Enh/Resto Shock DPS = 174.31 in cycle/204.32 ignoring GCD and SS interference
Enh/Resto Searing DPS = 66.67

Hence difference in DPS gained from Ele/Enh = 298.42 - 240.98 = 57.44 DPS

This means that for Enh/Resto to do more damage then Ele/Enh, 3% of your white damage would need to be > 57.44 DPS.

If your white damage is 100% of your overall damage(X DPS): (for the sake of it)
0.03*X>57.44
X > 1914.66

If your white damage is 75% of your overall damage(X DPS):
0.03*0.75X>57.44
X > 2522.88

If your white damage is 50% of your overall damage(X DPS):
0.03*0.50X>57.44
X > 3829.33

Now I do understand that yes, Utopian existence of DPS cycles, lag, LOS issues, as well as moving around in fights doesn't always make things perfect like theorycrafting does.

But there can be little denial that shocks provides comparable DPS with results like these, and more potential DPS than resto.

N.B. 5 second shocks also keep Stonebreaker's Totem up at a rate of 83% instead of 69% for 6 second shocks.
#4800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Neithan
Just from quick check, NG reduces spell resist by 3% but you only counted 2% in Enha/resto part.
#4801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Neithan
Just from quick check, NG reduces spell resist by 3% but you only counted 2% in Enha/resto part.
#4802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Neithan
Just from quick check, NG reduces spell resist by 3% but you only counted 2% in Enha/resto part.
17% spell resist rate for Ele/Enh, compared to 14% for Enh/Resto?
#4803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Neithan
Originally Posted by LionsFist
17% spell resist rate for Ele/Enh, compared to 14% for Enh/Resto?

Point to be made about % of damage dealt by shaman through shocks:

Base ES damage: 658-692.
Base FlameS damage: 377(+422 DoT)
WCS: no raid buffs/16% resist rate.

Maybe just a typo, later corrected.
#4804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Originally Posted by Neithan
Im here with you Rob. Not in all fights you are in pure melee group. +10 yards tremor at Archimonde ftw

Edit: Morning spelling.
The dmg increase would be more than 1% and in addition to that you pick up survivability with -10% dmg from frost, fire, and nature dmg sources. I'm not sure of any particular fights excluding Archie where you really need the +10 yard totem range. And with mana not even being an issue anymore..... If a talent is being picked for one specific fight, it's time to rethink that pick.

Personally I'm only liking his spec idea because it inculdes Elemental Warding. There's a lot of fights I'd have lived through had I had that talent. The dps increase is just icing.

Only time I'm not in a pure melee group is in a 10 man, and then the totems don't really matter as much anyways. A caster can be within 20 yards of me. If your raid doesn't put 4 other melee with you as an enhancement shaman, then you're really kind of borked already. Not your fault of course, but still.
#4805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Neithan
10% dmg reduction on some nondispellable fire/frost/nature damage is really nice (liked it when I was ele specced).

Worth testing for sure.
#4806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Tremor is 30yad range + 10talent.
Boss spell resist rate is 17%. Hit cap is 16%
I have tested 16/41/0 couple days and I have to redrop totems like madman. I miss extra range, rogues are mad, dps is worser. Double check facts before posting. We have seen plenty of maths about elem/ench. Only good thing about suicide spec is elemental warding and improved fire totems for hyjal trash AOE.

Edit: Never trust tooltip.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 11/14/07 at 12:05 PM.
#4807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Totemic Mastery makes a difference. I think you take for granted how small 20 yards actually is, it's shock range. On any fight that requires movement ie: Rage, Azgalor, Archimonde, Gurtogg(if you are taking bloodboils), Mother, Council, p2 Illidan, and to a lesser eckstent Supremus the point in Totemic Master will be invaluable. Do you want to take the chance that your group misses a wf application and has to wait <5 seconds to get it back on their weapon? Sounds like a terrible idea and I'm sure them losing wf for even a few seconds will be a bigger loss in raid DPS than if you were to sub in resto.

You seem to be forgetting totemic focus as well. I think our last council kill I laid ~130 totems and rough guessing that as 8000 mana saved through that talent alone.

I really can't imagine running around with 12% hit either, sounds terrible.
#4808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
everwatch
Originally Posted by rava
Totemic Mastery makes a difference. I think you take for granted how small 20 yards actually is, it's shock range. On any fight that requires movement ie: Rage, Azgalor, Archimonde, Gurtogg(if you are taking bloodboils), Mother, Council, p2 Illidan, and to a lesser eckstent Supremus the point in Totemic Master will be invaluable. Do you want to take the chance that your group misses a wf application and has to wait <5 seconds to get it back on their weapon? Sounds like a terrible idea and I'm sure them losing wf for even a few seconds will be a bigger loss in raid DPS than if you were to sub in resto.

You seem to be forgetting totemic focus as well. I think our last council kill I laid ~130 totems and rough guessing that as 8000 mana saved through that talent alone.

I really can't imagine running around with 12% hit either, sounds terrible.

Mana isn't the issue it once was. I had sub normal buffs tonight in ZA and I never went OOM once even dropping totems left and right on the "supression room" area keeping WF, etc out at all times and non-stop AoE totem dropping. The mana reduction on shocks coupled with SR is simply amazing. Might I have gone OOM without that talent? Maybe. But then I could have used my totems a lil more efficiently as well if needed. I could have also used more consumables. Also I was in a 10 man and did not have all of my buffs, nor have I been 100% on par with keeping up Water Shield all of the time yet. So I'm still not even generating all of the mana I can.

For Rage, Azgalor, and Gurtogg I can place my totems to where a 20 yard range will hit all of my melee. If you can't do that, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Movement is only an issue with Bloodboil, and because totems can be targeted with the acid breath, I place them in an odd spot anyways to not get melee hit by the acid, which reaches the melee where they move to. So again, I only see Archie as a serious area. As to Archie...

Tremor Totem is a 30 yard range totem, not 20 yards and not 40 yards. Talented it is 40 yards. 30 yards still does the trick and is exactly the range most people "think" it is on average.

There is no checking facts when it comes to whether people are standing in range of a totem. It is simply a matter of are you dropping them in the right spot and are they standing in the right spot. Bloodboil is the only boss I can think of where you might run into issues even with proper placement. Archie is not on that list "imho".

Other comments deleted due to not being sure lions math was 100% right.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/14/07 at 8:21 AM. Reason: Other comments deleted due to not being sure lions math was 100% right.
#4809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Well I just did several runs on yo's sim, testing this ele vs resto debate for my values.

1736 AP/33.71% crit/10.27% hit/1% spell hit (base values).

With reverb + concussion I got 1644/1644/1643 DPS, with shocks being 267 dps.

With NG I got 1655/1656/1655 DPS, with shocks being 244 dps.

Interestingly the dps difference between shocks is as predicted by lionsfist (about 22-25dps).

I actually think that as gear improves (I.e end game gear) with insanely high AP/Crit/Hit then NG scales better as your white damage increases.

I think I'm going to be going with a 2/45/14 spec like this as I can't see any reason to max out totemic focus (I dont have mana issues atm so definitly wont after patch).
#4810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by LionsFist
But there can be little denial that shocks provides comparable DPS with results like these, and more potential DPS than resto.
You came up with 200 dps and 300 dps after 2.3 just like similar post few pages before.
The problem is that no shaman specced ele instead of resto can reach 200 dps now. In fact 100 dps is something seen rarely on wws. The difference in prediction melee damage and spell damage from actual in-game results is huge. Run my sim - it predictsa melee damage really well but gives those unreacheble numbers for elemental damage. There are many reasons why, but the main reason is that melee damage is automatic for the most part while you have to manually press shock button and it is not possible to do it on every cooldown due to interference from GCD and enviromental changes. If you really want to put math behind it - calculate how many shocks per 2 minutes one will be able to perform without interfrring with SS every 10 seconds, UR, 1 trinket/racial activation, 1 potion, 3 totems (no totem twisting) with 1.5 GCD + 0.2 net+ brain lag, with 5 sec and 6 sec talents.

On your math - you compared ele spec without GCD from SS with resto spec with GCD to achieve not very impressive 57 dps gain. If you'd use same methodology (no GCD both times) with your numbers it would result in 27 DPS gain only. With GCD accounted both times the difference is probably even lowever. So we are talking about 2 dps per talent point increase - I would rather view the specs from utility pov such as increased totem range.

EDIT:
My sim has no support for GCD but predicts NG better for overall damage even with those inflated elemental damage numbers.

Edit 2:
EP instead of AEP - I thought that we are using Attack power Eq. Points

Last edited by Yo! : 11/14/07 at 9:11 AM.
#4811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
everwatch
Originally Posted by Yo!
You came up with 200 dps and 300 dps after 2.3 just like similar post few pages before.
The problem is that no shaman specced ele instead of resto can reach 200 dps now. In fact 100 dps is something seen rarely on wws. The difference in prediction melee damage and spell damage from actual in-game results is huge. Run my sim - it predictsa melee damage really well but gives those unreacheble numbers for elemental damage. There are many reasons why, but the main reason is that melee damage is automatic for the most part while you have to manually press shock button and it is not possible to do it on every cooldown due to interference from GCD and enviromental changes. If you really want to put math behind it - calculate how many shocks per 2 minutes one will be able to perform without interfrring with SS every 10 seconds, UR, 1 trinket/racial activation, 1 potion, 3 totems (no totem twisting) with 1.5 GCD + 0.2 net+ brain lag, with 5 sec and 6 sec talents.

On your math - you compared ele spec without GCD from SS with resto spec with GCD to achieve not very impressive 57 dps gain. If you'd use same methodology (no GCD both times) with your numbers it would result in 27 DPS gain only. With GCD accounted both times the difference is probably even lowever. So we are talking about 2 dps per talent point increase - I would rather view the specs from utility pov such as increased totem range.

EDIT:
My sim has no support for GCD but predicts NG better for overall damage even with those inflated elemental damage numbers.
One of my best Shock dps WWS was at 92.19 dps as 0/45/16. So I'd have to agree that 200+ shock dps isn't attainable at a rough guess with pre-BC numbers. I don't think 2.3 numbers increase things enough to hit 200 shock dps... Is his math completely off then? Could someone show the correct math?

Last edited by everwatch : 11/14/07 at 8:23 AM.
#4812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0LionsFist
Originally Posted by Yo!
You came up with 200 dps and 300 dps after 2.3 just like similar post few pages before.
The problem is that no shaman specced ele instead of resto can reach 200 dps now. In fact 100 dps is something seen rarely on wws. The difference in prediction melee damage and spell damage from actual in-game results is huge. Run my sim - it predictsa melee damage really well but gives those unreacheble numbers for elemental damage. There are many reasons why, but the main reason is that melee damage is automatic for the most part while you have to manually press shock button and it is not possible to do it on every cooldown due to interference from GCD and enviromental changes. If you really want to put math behind it - calculate how many shocks per 2 minutes one will be able to perform without interfrring with SS every 10 seconds, UR, 1 trinket/racial activation, 1 potion, 3 totems (no totem twisting) with 1.5 GCD + 0.2 net+ brain lag, with 5 sec and 6 sec talents.

On your math - you compared ele spec without GCD from SS with resto spec with GCD to achieve not very impressive 57 dps gain. If you'd use same methodology (no GCD both times) with your numbers it would result in 27 DPS gain only. With GCD accounted both times the difference is probably even lowever. So we are talking about 2 dps per talent point increase - I would rather view the specs from utility pov such as increased totem range.

EDIT:
My sim has no support for GCD but predicts NG better for overall damage even with those inflated elemental damage numbers.
The GCD was there in the resto spec. The point being that you could get a 5 second cycle without interfering with your SS rotation, being 10 second...
#4813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by LionsFist
The GCD was there in the resto spec. The point being that you could get a 5 second cycle without interfering with your SS rotation, being 10 second...
Include lag as small as 0.2 sec and cycle will start to shift:
0 - SS
1,7 - shock
6,9 - shock
10 - SS
11,9 - instead of 11,7 eventually resulting in missed shock or delayed SS.
Some shocks can be missed if person waits with SS for WF cooldown.
About 3 shocks will be additionally missed when activating on 2 min timer abilities.
#4814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0evilution
as 0/45/16 Last night Shocks accounted for 14% of my damage (Searing totem 2%.. didn’t use it as much as i could have! Hitting for an average of 181 however).

Previously shocks accounted for around 6% of my nightly damage. All in all a nice buff (not to mention few agro issues and SR saving my butt a few times when i was a little over eager with my trash dps).
#4815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Thebeat
I really like the stonebreaker totem. Since I now never seem to go below 90-80% mana even when spamming shocks every gcd the buff is up almost all the time. And I didn't even remember the SR change. That would account for me living through a few of those "oops I got aggro" pulls.
#4816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I need several sets of eyes to go through the OP with a fine toothed comb and find any discrepancies that need to be fixed for the 2.3 changes please. I am in the process of changing have changed every instance of AEP to EP. So the new buzz word is Enhancement Points --> EP.
#4817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
I just wanted to get into Kara last night and get some numbers. It wasn't an ideal test because the only raid buffs I had were Int, Mark and a Hunter's pet giving ferocious inspiration. (I didn't even have salv so I had to get a GoA totem down all the time.) I don't know if the raid leader kept WWS... If he did I'll post a link, but this is a limited test. We only killed Hunts, Moreos and R&J. I was also threat limited a lot of the time so I'd expect these numbers to improve in 25-man with our MT and a few palys.

Recap numbers - (They don't include my fire totem that was down most of the time.)

Melee - 42.5% - 553,351 damage - miss 14.0% - crit 31.6%
Windfury - 30.8% - 400,989 damage - miss 3.8% - crit 28.7%
Earth Shock - 15.8% - 205,409 damage - miss 8.5% - crit 6.0%
Stormstrike - 8.7% - 113,610 damage - miss 3.3% - crit 28.6%
Decapitator - .9% - 12,039 damage
Flame Shock - .9% - 11,330 damage - miss 20.0% - crit 8.30%
Romulo's - .5% - 6156 damage (About half way through I noticed I had Romulo's trinket and switched it for Hourglass.)

Early on I was getting a lot of resists on flame shock so I was casting earth shock more. Plus generally I'll use Earth Shock if I don't think the mob is going to live until all my ticks are done anyway.

I'm 17/44/0.

If I was 0/45/16, could we expect to see the following?

White Melee increases by 3% = 553,351 * .03 = 16,601 additional white
Shock damge decreased by 1 second and 5% = 216,739 * (5/6) / 1.05 = 172,015
Shock damage increased by 3% = 172,015 * 1.03 = 177,175

So white and shocks for 0/45/16 = 553,351 + 16,601 + 177,175 = 747,127
Observed white and shocks for 17/44/0 = 553,351 + 216,739 = 770,090

So it looks like 17/44/0 did 22,963 or 1.8% more damage than 0/45/16 would have done. Plus I had 2 point into elemental devistation so my crit must have went up just a tiny tiny bit.

It might also be worth noting:
Earth shock average 1079, high 1281
Earth shock CRIT average 1703, high 1848
#4818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
Early on I was getting a lot of resists on flame shock so I was casting earth shock more. Plus generally I'll use Earth Shock if I don't think the mob is going to live until all my ticks are done anyway.
Flame Shock should actually have a lower resist rate than Earth Shock because its a partial resist spell, whereas Earth Shock is a binary spell and is all or nothing on resists.
#4819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Jerem
Originally Posted by Malan
I need several sets of eyes to go through the OP with a fine toothed comb and find any discrepancies that need to be fixed for the 2.3 changes please. I am in the process of changing have changed every instance of AEP to EP. So the new buzz word is Enhancement Points --> EP.
It's been mentioned before, but the part about OH selection can now include the formerly Main Hand Karazhan weapons (Malchezaar's axe, Illhoof's mace).
These weapons gave, with my stats (Heroics/Crafted/Karazhan gear) better figures than a Runic Hammer.

Also, the thread about the Mongoose / Executioner comparison now contains a table that shows the benefit of Executioner (very logically) increases the more Armor Penetration you already have elsewhere.
Maybe the Weapon enchantments section could reflect this (thus making Executioner preferable with ZA/Badges/BT gear than with entry raid gear).
Just a couple of thoughts from one set of eyes, with a maybe not so fine-toothed comb.

Last edited by Jerem : 11/14/07 at 10:56 AM.
#4820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Malan
Flame Shock should actually have a lower resist rate than Earth Shock because its a partial resist spell, whereas Earth Shock is a binary spell and is all or nothing on resists.
Yeah I would expect the same thing. I'm sure it would have evened out. I only did 11k damage with Flame shock so the fact that I had 20% resist could have just been bad luck or Huntsman doesn't like fire. 205k Damage done with Earth Shock is a decent enough number to trust a 8.5% resist rate, for those mobs I was fighting, to be about right.
#4821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
@Monkey - Flameshock outperforms because of raid debuffs, so if you didn't have those debuffs in a 10 man it makes perfect sense.

@Jerem - the OP already includes a note saying that the 2 KZ weapons can now be used in the OH, I've mentioned this several times now. Its right there at the top of the OH weapons section.
VIII.5 Itemization - OH Weapons
If you are unsure if weapon X is an upgrade over weapon Z, use Yo's simulator (linked in this post) to compare how your simulated DPS would differ using each weapon.

Patch 2.3 Update - Decapitator and Fool's Bane from KZ have been made one-hand and non unique, which will significantly improve early OH choices. Zul'Aman will also feature at least one 2.6 speed fist OH.
However I have updated the following bit today -
OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Fury] > [The Decapitator] > [Fool'sBane] > [Runic Hammer] > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4
Now I'm sure that WF/WF on anything past Foolsbane will still outperform the dagger with WF/FT, but are we safe to say that an epic dagger (perhaps even the consortium rep one) would outperform the Runic Hammer? (it will obviously be better than a green 2.6)

Last edited by Malan : 11/14/07 at 11:20 AM.
#4822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Thebeat
I really like the stonebreaker totem. Since I now never seem to go below 90-80% mana even when spamming shocks every gcd the buff is up almost all the time. And I didn't even remember the SR change. That would account for me living through a few of those "oops I got aggro" pulls.
Its nice to be able to tank free mobs for short periods of time now. I tanked some bad pulls in BT today (we were pulling stupidly fast because our instance servers went down) while other stuff was dpsed down by using SR. And it is especially fun on things like Naj'entus where you can use it just before you break the shield and cut the damage down to ~5-6k. I can't wait to get fel raged this week.

The biggest thing I am having trouble getting used to is the new water shield, I always see it with < 1min left and REALLY want to recast it.

Also, this was mentioned in the undocumented patch notes thread but I figured I would throw it in here too: Gorefiend no longer targets totems with his shadow bolt thingies. I have mixed feelings about this, I no longer need to redrop totems every 2 seconds on that fight but I am no longer taking away from the overall raid damage taken anymore.
#4823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
i agree

I agree about the changes to water shield, it was hard getting used to last night.

I might stop casting it anyway, i don't need the mana at all anymore, and a few extra hits from lightning shield are welcome enough.
#4824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
I agree with the Water Shield change. I love the change, it practically guarantees unless I'm a complete waste I will never run out of mana. But last night in The Eye, I recast it a couple times on reflex because I saw the timer so low. Not that it wasted mana, but it retarded the delivery of the free mana. It will take some time to get accustomed too.

Last night I was seeing my Mana Spring totem ticking for what looked like +92 mana per 2 seconds. Does our new 30% AP --> Spellpower talent cause an increased effect on Mana Spring? From reading earlier, I believe this is the case. That just seemed like an ungodly increase to it's normal 20 mp/2. Anyone else seeing these numbers?
#4825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Spell damage does not affect Mana Spring.
#4826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
Hello fellow shamans im posting for the first time here in the EJ forums.

I must express a complain:Now that we FINALLY have the 30% damage reduction due to new SR, why on earth do we have this noob talent called aniticipaton?or toughness (10% armor frm items YAY!)-.- ... Cant blizzard replace it with epxertise or something like that?Idont miss so often but those mobs keep DODGING all the time...Maybe blizz sould consider this?

Razzan

P.S. Im sure i clicked ''Aszune''.... :P
#4827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Welcome to a year ago? We've been complaining about those 2 talents ever since the 2.0 talent tree came out.
#4828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
Hello Malan, erhm yeah i know but thought i d bring this up again for reasons like being fed up with DODGED STORMSTRIKES AND DODGED WINDURY ATTACKS.And since the OP (really good and helpful post btw)states that expertise would also affect yellow attacks,shouldnt it be a cookie cutter ability for shamans?

Razzan
#4829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cabe
Decap Vs Fool's bane OH

Is the Decapitator better than Fool’s Bane in the OH if you take into account OH penalty and Fool’s Banes Stats.

MH 1dps = 9.03
OH 1dps = 3.7 EP

Decapitator
92.1 dps
27 crit
567 damage cool down 3 min
(92.1 * 3.7) = 340.77 EP
(27 * 2) = 54 EP

[top] 394. 77 EP

Fool’s Bane socketed
87.5 Dps
28 crit
38 AP
(87.5 * 3.7)


323.75
(28 * 2) = 56
(38 * 1) = 38
= 417.75 EP

My only question is will throwing axe every 3 min be able to close the gap. And of course storm strike damages.. being that the decap has a higher top end damage even though the damage is cut in half by the OH penalty?

It’s my first post don’t flame me as I’m trying to figure out which one to use for OH
#4830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Just add the axe throw into the DPS for the Decapitator and count it that way. Since its a 3 minute cooldown its going to be fairly insignificant though, but it might close the gap some.

[e] I'm not sure if the axe On Use gets counted toward the OH penalty, if it doesn't, calculate it using the MH EP value and then add that to the total EP for the Decaptitator as an OH. If it does get counted under the OH penalty, then just figure out the dps (dmg/3min) and add that to the weapon dps and recalculate the total.

Last edited by Malan : 11/14/07 at 2:08 PM.
#4831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
The sims that I've run to answer that question for myself always ends with Fool's Bane being better even if you give the Decapitator the approximate 3 dps from the "on use."
#4832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
(513+567)/2/180 = 3 DPS
You can't just add it in to the weapon DPS, because it's not affected by attack power or melee crit rate. It is affected by spell crit rate, which we'll estimate as 5%.

You probably need to run the two combos through Yo's sim, and compare Fool's Bane DPS to Decapitator DPS + 3*1.05 DPS. Use whichever is higher. My guess here is that while Decapitator is the better MH, Fool's Bane is a better OH.

Of course, there is also some intangible value from having a 40-yard ranged attack, but that's more of a PvP/solo/5-man thing and probably minimal in raids.
#4833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Durigen
I agree with the Water Shield change. I love the change, it practically guarantees unless I'm a complete waste I will never run out of mana. But last night in The Eye, I recast it a couple times on reflex because I saw the timer so low. Not that it wasted mana, but it retarded the delivery of the free mana. It will take some time to get accustomed too.
I believe this was mentioned before, but I'll update it again since I think the mod name has changed.

I would recommend getting Avion (Formally PowerAura2)
http://www.wowace.com/wiki/Avion

I setup an animated blue shield icon to appear whenever I lose the water sheild buff. Watching a 1minute timer all the time is just too much of a pain for me :P.

I also added one for my invigorate proc from T5.
#4834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Flame Shock vs Earth Shock

It looks like flame shock has a higher spell damage coefficient than earth shock. Didn't matter before, but it does now. (Source: Spell damage coefficient - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

So flame shock gets 67% of your spell damage over the course of the DoT, compared to earth shock's 43%. Flame shock also has a higher base damage - 797 counting the DoT, vs earth shock's average 675.

Assuming 700 spell damage, Stormstrike, and no other debuffs...

Flame Shock: 377 base direct damage + 420 base DoT damage + 469 bonus from spell damage = 1266 damage

Earth Shock: average 675 base (658-692 damage range) + 301 bonus from spell damage, *1.2 from stormstrike = 1171 damage


So even without CoE and Scorch, flame shock > earth shock.


(I realize these numbers assume raid-buffed AP - around 2300 - but it doesn't matter. The damage from earthshock with SS debuff equals the damage from unbuffed flameshock at... uh, 281 AP. Last I checked we have more than that naked.)
#4835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Severjanin
Yeah, I'm now going back to FS ES rotation especially since I think we're gonna have some fire mages again.
I've gotten comfortable raiding with one shock button so I'll just use a /castsequence reset=12 Flame Shock, Earth Shock macro for total ezmode.
#4836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
I averaged 1079 per non-crit Earth Shock last night. I imagine that it's so low because my raid buffs were limited and only half of my Earth Shocks were getting SS bonus. (Since my high non-crit was 1281) Crit was 6.0%, average crit damage was 1703 with a high of 1848. I had 8.5% resists on Earth Shock. (Total ES damage was 205K for sample size referrence sake.)

What is my average damage per shock including crits and resists?

Non crit (100% - 6.0% - 8.5%) = 85.5% * 1079 = 923
Crit 6.0% * 1703 = 102
923 + 102 = 1025

So I averaged 1025 damage every time I hit my Earth Shock button last nigt. My Earth Shock is on a 5s coold down. So max dps I could have observed last night is 1025/5 = 205dps from Earth Shock.
#4837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Cabe
Originally Posted by Weem
The sims that I've run to answer that question for myself always ends with Fool's Bane being better even if you give the Decapitator the approximate 3 dps from the "on use."
The only reason i asked is in the OP it show Merciless > Decapitator > Fool Bane for OH which is false if Fools is better than Decap for OH
#4838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
That was just me making a guess sorry. I will rearrange that.
#4839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kagarr
New! Enhance dps ftw :)

Hey how's it going guys, I have read your forums for quite some time now. I am glad to see that alot of the stuff I have been doing to increase my dps during raids is supported by math and such.
2 questions, is amor pentration as good as it looks? how much aep is it worth and is it more viable then say crit or streng? Also depending on that answer, what about that new enchant. Is it better than mongoose? Thanks
~Kagarr
#4840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
I finally finished reading all 4841 posts of this lovely thread, and I wanted to say thanks to Malan, Disqo, Rob, Yo!, Hoof, and everyone else that has made this happen. I'm coming up on being able to hit some raids (not quite level 70) and since my guild is casual, no one there would have been able to help me out to the extent this thread has. Consider this a public Thank you and I promise I won't ask about my optimum +hit or if my 1.5 speed weapon is a good idea.

Last edited by frozndevl : 11/14/07 at 3:55 PM.
#4841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Kagarr
Hey how's it going guys, I have read your forums for quite some time now. I am glad to see that alot of the stuff I have been doing to increase my dps during raids is supported by math and such.
2 questions, is amor pentration as good as it looks? how much aep is it worth and is it more viable then say crit or streng? Also depending on that answer, what about that new enchant. Is it better than mongoose? Thanks
~Kagarr
Not to be rude, but I don't think you have been reading for quite some time. There have been numerous discussions about both topics and the first post contains answers to at least one of them. Yes, I realize 194 pages is a lot to read through, but there is a fantastic tool known as "search this thread".
#4842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
Actually Rava Section V and Section VIII answer all his questions. And he signed his post. So being rude is ok.
#4843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Grogimer
Actually Rava Section V and Section VIII answer all his questions. And he signed his post. So being rude is ok.
I'm willing to say be 50% rude. Expertise has undergone some major revision and even with the 15.x vs. 3.x figures sorted out, it still isn't as succinct as the other AEP values. Expecting people without a math background to understand what discontinuity and summed across all expertise values means is a bit rough.

As for Executioner, section V clearly indicates we haven't fully sorted it out but Mongoose appears to be better than Executioner particularly at entry gear levels.

So he 50% sucks for not reading the first post.
#4844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grogimer
@Mbuzi
True, Expertise has gone through alot of changes. However, he did not ask about it nor the math behind it. He asked 3 questions.
1. Is Armor Penetration as good as it looks. Since i can not physically look at Armor Penetration and we are not comparing Chris Farley in a thong to Jesica Alba in one, this is subjective on what you have currently. So both section V and VIII apply since we are not going to break it down for him by looking at his equipment.
2. AEP Value. Is in section VIII
3. Although not completly broken down he has a range he can look at that makes sense. If he is in Tier 4 or less Mongoose. In 6 more than likely Executioner.
#4845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Small typo in section VIII.

Originally Posted by Malan
Patch 2.3 will change all weapon skill rating into weapon expertise rating, which converts into Expertise skill at a rate of 3.95 expertise rating:1 Expertise, and reduces the chance for your target to dodge and parry by 0.25% per point of Expertise. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], which used to provide 10 dagger skill rating, will now provide 6 expertise rating (all weapons).
Shoulderpads of the Stranger add 10 expertise rating, at some point in test this wasn't a 1 to 1 ratio? (which is why I'm assuming its 6 here)
#4846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yah it must have been at one point.
#4847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Grogimer
@Mbuzi
True, Expertise has gone through alot of changes. However, he did not ask about it nor the math behind it. He asked 3 questions.
1. Is Armor Penetration as good as it looks. Since i can not physically look at Armor Penetration and we are not comparing Chris Farley in a thong to Jesica Alba in one, this is subjective on what you have currently. So both section V and VIII apply since we are not going to break it down for him by looking at his equipment.
2. AEP Value. Is in section VIII
3. Although not completly broken down he has a range he can look at that makes sense. If he is in Tier 4 or less Mongoose. In 6 more than likely Executioner.
I've been thinking more about this and decided to run some numbers to see if we could come up with a decent estimation for EP of Expertise that might belay some of the more painful questions.

Clearly the EP formula relies on estimations of hit EP, crit%, etc. This is going to introduce variability and make so we can never an exact number. I tried to found a boundary case where the floor calculation would be off by the most. At 59 Expertise Rating you have 59/3.95 = 14.94. This is the lowest expertise I could find with the largest difference between exact and floor value.

I then ran the EP calculation for Hit EP values of 1.4 and 1.5. In the most floor disparate case I came up with Expertise EP:Hit EP = 2.05:1. In a case doing floor properly I came up with 1.91:1. This is in line with what another poster came up with several pages back. A lower hit rating value would give something below 1.9:1 For now I'm personally happy to multiply my Hit EP by 1.9 for approximation sake.

It may save lots of dumb questions later to use an approximation similar to this to give Expertise Rating an actual value of 2.55 (T4) and 2.66 (T5) in VIII.1 Itemization - Stat Weights with the note to see further down for a more rigorous treatment.

ps - I understand being annoyed at clearly answered questions and my very first post here received an infraction for ranting about this. I've learned to pipe down, read, and only contribute if I have something worthwhile.

EDIT: Huge oops, sorry Malan, meant Expertise, not Armor Pen

Last edited by Mbuzi : 11/14/07 at 5:28 PM.
#4848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Wait ... what? We already have an EP value for Armor Penetration. 0.25 conservatively, and most will find that its 0.3 when they run the sim.
#4849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Malan
Wait ... what? We already have an EP value for Armor Penetration. 0.25 conservatively, and most will find that its 0.3 when they run the sim.
Corrected post, sorry, I typed in Armor Pen meaning to talk about Expertise.
#4850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Malan
No its not bad, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that those are not empirical figures at all.
Quit spreading that nonsense.
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
#4851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Malan
No its not bad, and I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that those are not empirical figures at all.
Quit spreading that nonsense.
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
#4852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
@Aegospotami - not that Malan needs defending, but wow, just wow. Kings gives a 10% benefit to strength. Comparing inscriptions:
(34*1) + (16*x) = 17*2.2

x = Hit Rating

x would have to equal a mere 0.2125 for them to be equal. No one rational here is suggesting hit rating is meaningless. In fact until you get very near the cap it's value will be > 0.2125 so this line of attack isn't very effective and demonstrates your lack of understanding about what EP is used for.
#4853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
Maybe I'm missing an obvious reason as to why, but since the patch I've been noticing a strange bug. When I cast WF on my main hand weapon, a lot of the time my health drops 5%. I can't think why this would happen at all.
#4854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krish
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
Man are you barking up the wrong tree.

NOBODY is saying that +hit is a bad stat. It is simply not as good as the other yellow-gem option, crit rating. I'm finding it hard to not just dismiss your argument as pure trolling, but 34 AP and 16 hit rating are better than 17 strength.

If you think that hit rating affects the percentage of swings that will crit, you are just wrong. Look into attack tables, do some real research, and then come back here and post your apology. There are a large number of intelligent people here who have put a great deal of time into understanding exactly what's going on behind the scenes to influence DPS in a raid environment. All of us who have participated in and used the information in this forum have improved our raid DPS because of it.

Take your anger and ignorance elsewhere.
#4855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Anyone figured out how to turn of the bloody annoying Shamanistic Focus proc sound? It's driving me and the other melee mad :P

Mostly looking for a non intrusive method, a simple mod or something, or barring that, at least the name of the soundfile that plays every time, think it is the clear cast noise?
#4856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.
Hits cannot proc Critical Strikes. Period.
Stormstrike and Windfury will never miss with the hit from talents from a 3/44/14 build. Period.
The OP already says that +34 AP and +17 hit is better than +17 STR and +17 INT. Period.

So WTF is the rest of your worthless post trying to say?
#4857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.
Yah you pretty much just proved your own ignorance there bud.

And let me clear up for you - I don't see myself as an "authority" on much of anything. Frequent readers of this thread know that I've eaten my words on several occasions and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my math skills have taken a sharp nose dive since my last college course. I just happen to read this thread more than anyone else since I'm the one updating the info post.
#4858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ultima88
Originally Posted by ultima88
Hi all,

I realize the ideal shock rotation is the fs/es, but I am running into an issue. My guild leader (an elemental shaman, also reads this thread frequently, so may in fact read this) has told me that I cannot use Flame Shock. It takes up a debuff slot that he believes is more valuable for another class.
Since I try and let him get at least one charge of the stormstrike debuff, my shocks are sort of nerfed. I realize that shocks comprise only a relatively small part of our damage. But I was hoping there could be some logical arguement I could present him with to use Flame Shock.

Thanks in advance.
Anyone got anything for this?
#4859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mbuzi
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
#4860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
I'm going to call BS on you here because you try to make people look stupid for bringing up the +Hit argument, when it's the one thing you don't have any numbers for.

Misses cannot proc Windfury or Critical Strikes. Period.

And if you truly believed that hit rating is a stat that wastes stat value at the expense of other things, you would not have the +34 AP and +16 Hit Rating inscription on your T4 headpiece. What makes this even more hypocritical is that, as you've noted on several occasions, Strength gives a much larger benefit in a raid buff situation (BoK, Gift of the Wild) than Attack Power.

So if the choice is between the Lower City inscription (+17 Str, +16 Int) and your +Hit Rating/AP inscription, according to your own Theorycrafting you've chosen the wrong inscription.

And because we keep seeing the +Hit question popping up, apparently I'm not the only one who has noticed a DPS increase when changing from your recommendation (prioritizing only +Hit from talents) and switching to a few pieces of gear that add +Hit. There is no question that +Hit in the 200-range is excessive, but there is every indication that going from around 70-80 +Hit to the 120 - 130 range will lead to a DPS increase.

You've helped a lot of Enhancement Shaman players with your theorycrafting, but it's pretty clear on this issue that, because you see yourself as the authority on these matters, you are reluctant to admit you're wrong. And there's no mistaking, you are wrong here.
We've already concluded that in this thread

1.Hit isn't as good for Enh Shaman because you're already hit capped from talents, for your specials, namely Windfury and Stormstrike

2.Hit becomes increasingly better as your gear improves because hit is a percentage increase to your DPS. Therefore in T6 level gear of critical percentage and attack power, you'll see increase in dps at a faster rate.

3.Hit Pushes Miss off the combat table, crit pushes hit off. Hitting more won't make you crit more. While it is true that you may miss a hit that could've procced windfury (very bold assumption), but that still doesn't justify stacking hit at early gear level.

In addition, there are some of us that NOTICED DPS difference from swapping from pure +hit to just AP and crit (I stacked 10 dawnstones before, so i definitely know the difference)

And on the helm inscription, 6.8 AP < 14 hit rating
#4861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Mbuzi
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
Track your own Flame Shock damage ticks. If it ticks for a larger portion than any other DoT that is permitted on the mob, then your raid leader should let you keep it.

If it is ticking for the least, and can push off important debuffs such as sunder armor, then don't use it.
#4862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0seminarca
It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.

I think the main impetus of this perceived "anti-Hit Rating" atmosphere is that early in TBC raiding, many Enhancement Shamans were using Hit Rating gems in gear whereas it's better to use straight Str or Str/Crit gems instead.

No one is saying stay away from Hit Rating as if it were the pox. Just that when you have a choice to put an 8 Str gem or an 8 Hit Rating gem, the Str one is the better option.

I don't know why AEP/EP equivalency systems are so frightening to people, I'm fairly poor at maths myself, and AEP/EP is just about one of the most intuitive ways to present information to such a dumbarse.

Anyway, my commiserations to all the Shamans in this thread, I read it off and on here and there (level 65 Enhancement Shaman alt), I can only begin to imagine the horror of finding posts like that every day.
#4863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
Originally Posted by seminarca
It should also be said that gear with Hit Rating on it generally (key word there, generally) has a better spread of stats than gear that doesn't. Spending itemization points only on Str and Agi is going to result in overall lower amount of stats than if you were to spend the same itemization points on Str, Agi AND Hit. Swapping to gear that has Hit Rating on it will generally give you more overall stats, and result in a DPS increase.
I think it's more the case that if an item has Hit, Crit, AP... then you'll have less itemization weight on stats we value. STR and AGI proportionally give less value, because they are higher weighted for ilevel.

i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating
#4864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Mbuzi
The post immediately following the one where you asked the question had a good suggestion. Run a mod to track debuffs on the mob and assure your leader you will only flame shock when not near the limit. If you want to argue Flame Shock is a better debuff than something else well, that's another matter entirely.
I would run something like Demon for this.
#4865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Mengus
I think it's more the case that if an item has Hit, Crit, AP... then you'll have less itemization weight on stats we value. STR and AGI proportionally give less value, because they are higher weighted for ilevel.

i.e from an item level standpoint, 3 agi = 4 crit rating
No, from an ilevel standpoint, 3 agi = 3 crit rating = 3 hit rating = 3 haste rating = 6 ap = 3 str (assuming that the item starts with 0 stat points invested).
#4866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0benvegas
Is it time for Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol II?

...195 pages of excellent info for us before getting a nice rework in 2.3. How about a fresh start Malan?
#4867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
We've been waiting for Boe to get some time to get the Wiki going where all this will migrate. The wiki should then be used for people to post updates to, not discussion really, and then have normal threads out here to hash out all the details.
#4868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
everwatch
**EDITED**

Did some tests in BT using FT. I was an avid hoper that "theory" would be proven wrong. It was not. Tests in 25 man raid content showed FT as "viable" dps used on a fast OH weapon, however it was not superior to DW WF on 2 slow weapons.

As some backup test data for those interested in Blasted Lands as a base example:

16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit was used across the board using Rising Tide MH with WF.

Merci Axe OH w/WF
2033 AP / 32.77% crit
White: 64%
WF: 35%
881.6dps in 6 min
320k dmg done

Umbral Shiv OH w/FT
2077 AP / 32.57% crit
White: 66%
WF: 21%
FT: 12%
844dps in 6 min
307k dmg done

As Disquette well pointed out, WF benefits more from +AP than FT does because our spell dmg is a % of that AP. IE. WF scales better with AP. The only way to scale FT better is with an inordinate amount of haste. I used 5% Flurry haste, not quite 5% true haste, to lend some of that credit to FT. Due to the haste nerf and itemization I have to retract all ideas and questions I made to FT being an equal or better alternative. RL testing proved true the theories in here from what I did in BT and from what a very simple test in BL backed up. Thanks for the previous work on this matter Disquette, Malan, and others.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/15/07 at 6:22 AM. Reason: tests showed I did math incorrectly
#4869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
I swapped over to Ele/Enhancement spec since I was intrigued by it from an earlier post. 16/45/0 I've been Enhance/Reso since I started my toon, so this is a 1st time change and test.

In BT tonight I found my total shock damage to be 17% of my total damage done using FT in my OH. In 2.2 with Resto side spec it was only 9% of my total damage done using WF in my OH.

I went to Blasted Lands and did a small test. I used a lil bit of human error, messing up GCD slightly here or there, to better simulate actual real %'s that would match my playstyle.

16.15% hit / 35% Flurry haste / 5.76% spell crit / 32.77% crit / 2033-2457AP (I should have taken off my relic/trinket due to procs)

White: 46%
WF: 30%
SS: 8%
ES: 8%
FS: 8%
1374.9dps
654k dmg done

16% of my damage done was Shocks versus a mob with no real resists to speak of. In a raid environment my Shock damage is a higher %. Probabaly a longer test result would have helped. Plus I will Shock even when out of melee range for whatever reason in actual game play. So 17% of my total damage with 16/45/0 spec appears to be Shock damage in 2.3

I don't plan on respec'ing - I like my -10% dmg from fire/frost/nat too much. Is there any shaman who is Resto side spec'd who can tell me what % they're getting who has similar gear? T5/T6 equiv mix.
#4870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
#4871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0jackiechen89
Instance not PVP??

i guess most of your work is done base on instance raid..
where i am mostly pvp player....
spend most of my time in Arena or battlegroud.
so here is few point i don't agree with you..
please let me know what you think and correct me...

Enchantment/elemental
somehow i believe is much stronger than echchantment/rest in your point of view
i agree +hit is important.. but however...
during PVP ... player don't stand there for you to attack... most of time requireds you to run around...
shock dispel. shock for slowing target inorder to able to hit them with your weapon...
so i would like to ask your opinion on enchantment/elemental on PVP...
where you spend 5point to reduce your casting time by 1sec along with new Metel Quickness...
this talent become more powerful than used to be...

also like to ask you...
what about the play style on 2hand weapon with extremely slow speed like 3.6+
with alot of haste speed... how will that perform?
#4872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
Well about the new patch changes:My guild did a SSC keying run from some new guys so i went there as 2/45/14 with NG.First of all i must say the new totem is very good! On every second shock it was up and sometimes even during continuous shocks.The mental quickness is now a great talent no doubt about that since my shocks cost now 181mana (\o/),and with the new shamanistic focus i shock spam every 6 seconds.Also noticed sme really nice damage form shocks like 2563 crit 2456 etc whcih is lol :P.The thing i couldnt go well with and wont ever go well with is the stupid,irritating,noobish,WINDFURY AND STORMSTRIKE DODGES!I almost NEVER miss and im low on the meter because of that issue...53453534543 dodges.Gief expertise -.- ..This doesnt mean i look only to dps since i first make sure that i fulfill my support role appropriately..If we get expertise then our dps will go skyhigh,we will hit all the time :P.

P.S. 34AP+16hit is better than 17str+116int and Malan does a damn good job with advice for all enhancement shamans out there..Keep up the good work!

Razzan
#4873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Atren
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
Blasted lands has not been a reliable mechanism for testing anything, since we were level 60 and only when we didn't want to test against circumstances that would come up in a 40-man raid. You can't value stats when you're fighting hit/crit factories and when AP is exaggerated due to level difference and lack of armor mitigation.

For instance, how are you going to model the 30% of AP that is now translated into spell damage, compared to AP that is translated into physical damage when you're not fighting a mob with the same armor, glancing and dodge of a raid boss? Shocks aren't mitigated by armor.

So logically AP now has more value than it did prior to 2.3 because it increases 2 types of damage. Plus, crit will have more value for longer fights where mana might become an issue, to keep up the 60% reduced mana cost. Of course crit will then have a different “ideal value” depending on if you have 5 or 6 second shocks. (Probably doesn’t matter if you twist though.)
#4874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
After spending last night in the back half of BT, I can say without a doubt: This patch is awesome. If the only change we got was the Shamanistic rage -30% damage, I'd be a happy clam. In a trash situation, being able to become a fury warrior on demand makes for a much more aggressive play style and I love it. Taking damage off Veras's Deadly Poison, Shahraz's beams, Reliquary's auras, etc was lovely.

But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.

Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS


Originally Posted by Razzan
Razzan
#4875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Shabadu
Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS
I have to say that I'm pretty surprised that your shocks are indeed clocking in at 10% of your damage. I suppose seeing shock contribution was a bit to be expected due to the Mental Quickness change and the mana cost reduction, but damn. What are you normally using for weapons? I doubt you're packing Soul Cleaver in raids.
#4876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by Shabadu
After spending last night in the back half of BT, I can say without a doubt: This patch is awesome.
SR has clearly changed the game for us. Threat is a total non-factor and our dps got boosted (conveniently hidden from meters)

These are instances where I have been truly grateful about Shamanistic Rage.

EoS - P1 tanking. P3 with the seethe/ae spam is also so smooth now.
Gurtogg - if you get focused or hit by poison
Mother - Ports are completely harmless now.
L5 beams from council robot bastards.
Rogue focus, blizzard, flamestrike on council.

It is amazing. Shamanistic Rage has to be one of the top 2-3 PVE skills for any class in the entire game. But most importantly our mana burden is so low now that we can save SR to use it reactively.
#4877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
The SR change has definitely made me have to re-think how I use it. Most fights I can continue to pop it with Blood Fury + trinkets to maximize the mana returns, but on some I've had to separate it from them to hold in reserve in case I draw aggro. I'm not complaining of course, it's awesome that I can reduce the damage I take by such a large amount. The MQ changes are also great, I can't get enough of seeing 2k+ shock crits
#4878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
I have to say that I'm pretty surprised that your shocks are indeed clocking in at 10% of your damage. I suppose seeing shock contribution was a bit to be expected due to the Mental Quickness change and the mana cost reduction, but damn. What are you normally using for weapons? I doubt you're packing Soul Cleaver in raids.
Tide/Syphon last night. Usually I run Syphon/Syphon but I'm valuing hit more, especially for Shahraz where I'm wearing shadow resist gear.

Also check 2% Lightning bolt damage on Illidan. It's nice to dps during Demon phases.
#4879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
Also, one more thing, and I may have missed this being confirmed, but it seems that Stonebreaker Totem has a hidden cooldown of at least 10 seconds. I have yet to see it refresh the Elemental Strength buff on myself before it has worn off. I'm actually a little frustrated with the relic.
#4880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
A shaman in my guild mentioned that last night, apparently the druid relic has a 10 sec cooldown as well. I'm not sure that it matters though really - checking the derivation for that totem we decided that 30% uptime was good enough to beat the Astral Winds, and you only need 1 shock per 14 sec to average that uptime.
#4881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
So my guild just started working on Well of Souls, and I was wondering if anyone has tried tanking a fixate enrage with the new SR + pain suppression. For that matter, does SR stack with Pain suppression? Seems like a shaman taking two-three fixates during the enrage would be possible with 95% damage reduction and two PWS.

I don't have my logs but I think Krom is correct about a hidden cooldown on the totem. I spec'd ele/enh to try and reach the 89% uptime but noticed that the buff was down more often than not. I'll try to run procwatch for tonight's raid to be sure.

I also noticed that totem names are still bugged. Instead of reading 'Drats Fire Nova Totem does X' it reads 'Fire Nova Totem's Fire Nova Totem does X'. My magma totem was doing ~180 damage per pulse for Hyjal trash, and I'd love to see that added to the dps meters. < snide remark about blade flurry >
#4882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Malan
A shaman in my guild mentioned that last night, apparently the druid relic has a 10 sec cooldown as well. I'm not sure that it matters though really - checking the derivation for that totem we decided that 30% uptime was good enough to beat the Astral Winds, and you only need 1 shock per 14 sec to average that uptime.
I think it's a bit more difficult to hit that 30% uptime mark when every other shock is going to be a waste as far as chances to proc is concerned combined with not every shock causes a proc even when the cooldown isn't an issue. Would be good to try and do some testing to find out the exact cooldown on the totem.
#4883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Shabadu
But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.
Well, a much larger part of that would also be due to the Spirit Weapons buff. Our threat with BoS went from (1-.3)*(1-.15) = 59.5%, to (1-.3)*(1-.3) = 49%, which means that our TPS dropped by 18% of its original value. The expertise change, while nice, probably did not boost your tank TPS by 18%.
Originally Posted by drats
I also noticed that totem names are still bugged. Instead of reading 'Drats Fire Nova Totem does X' it reads 'Fire Nova Totem's Fire Nova Totem does X'. My magma totem was doing ~180 damage per pulse for Hyjal trash, and I'd love to see that added to the dps meters. < snide remark about blade flurry >
For now, that's "working as intended". The ability to add totem DPS to personal DPS won't come until we get unique unit IDs, which is supposed to come along with an enhanced combat log, for either 2.4 or 3.0.

Last edited by Rob : 11/15/07 at 12:37 PM.
#4884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aloaya
My Shaman's resto right now so I can't really test this myself:

Given the 10 second cooldown on the new totem, is it worth, if the buff is up (along with the cooldown), saving your next shock until the cooldown expires?

ie:

Shock procs totem, buff goes up
|
6 seconds
|
Shocks come off cooldown
|
4 seconds
|
Buff Expires
Shock (hoping to proc buff)

Just doing math in my head, we can estimate that doing this would delay half of all shocks (those that follow shocks that proc the buff). This means that the shock interval goes from 6sec to an average of 8. This is a 25% reduction in shocks over an extended period, meaning we lose that much damage from shocks. On the other hand, how much would that really improve buff uptime? It would remove an unavoidable 2 seconds buffless following every buff if shocks were used on cooldown, changing the optimal uptime from 10/2/10/2/10 to "always up" (a return of about 18ap), and I think the actual return is better than half that (though I may be wrong and it may be half -- or less).

So using a high estimate of lost damage and a low estimate of gain, is 25% of shock damage better than 9ap? Probably. But that 4 second window might be a good time to refresh totems if convenient, to avoid delaying SS or a shock capable of proccing the buff.
#4885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Anyone been able to do some live tests with Executioner? I was pondering and thinking about putting it on my OH, but it's damn expensive just to be trying it out :p.
#4886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aegospotami
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah you pretty much just proved your own ignorance there bud.

And let me clear up for you - I don't see myself as an "authority" on much of anything. Frequent readers of this thread know that I've eaten my words on several occasions and proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my math skills have taken a sharp nose dive since my last college course. I just happen to read this thread more than anyone else since I'm the one updating the info post.
According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?
#4887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?
Woah there, killer.

Your first statement is accurate, hit rating shouldn't be prioritized over stats for the most part, and strength is superior to ap due to kings. I think you're an ethug looking to start some shit over something you read too much into.
#4888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Shabadu
But, I think the biggest difference wasn't in any of our changes, but rather in the expertise change for tanks. I went from having to hold back significantly on council using the Vashj trinket to going full bore with shocks/haste pots etc and only hitting 90% of tank threat. Teron especially used to be bad for threat, but between new spirit weapons and expertise, I only came close during lust/haste/drums.
Our warrior was absolutely giddy last night, tanking multiple mobs with ease in hyjal, human warriors + expertise items are quite impressive. I think twisting tranquil air might be a thing of the past for me. The SR change just leaves me breathless, and I think my party is tired of heaing me talk about how much I love it. Any one have any numbers on how this would stack with elemental warding?

I don't want to lose NG, but 40% reduction to elemental effects with SR up does seem interesting at least.

Originally Posted by Illundai
Anyone been able to do some live tests with Executioner? I was pondering and thinking about putting it on my OH, but it's damn expensive just to be trying it out :p.
Our guild enchanter just got the pattern and I intend to go try this out asap. (I just need a few more shards :P) We have a rogue with it and he seems to enjoy it. So far the only thing I can say is that the graphic looks nice.
#4889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?
I'm not trying to do anything, you're doing pretty well on your own at managing that. Stop trolling this thread.
#4890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?
Saying "hit shouldn't be prioritized" is not the same as saying "hit is worthless". Any idiot can see that by the EP values in the original post, the community and Malan explicitly assign a positive, non-zero value to hit rating. Your criticism is wholly unwarranted. Now, shut up if you don't have anything worthwhile to talk about.
#4891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bahruk
Deleted.
#4892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aratheon
Originally Posted by Aegospotami
According to your own Theorycraft, hit rating is a stat that is not to be prioritized, while Strength should always be chosen over attack power.

No matter how many of your buddies make posts trying to defend you, the fact is that you've got an inscription with AP and Hit rating over an inscription with Strength and Int. Because you claim +Hit doesn't bring anything to the table, and none of us are having mana issues with 2.3, we're left with the fact that you chose an AP inscription over one with Strength.

If you didn't need the +Hit, why did you go with the AP inscription? You can't seem to explain that, and your buddies who are defending you can't explain it either, so the fact of the matter is that to any objective observer, it's clear that despite your own Theorycraft, and despite the fact that you try to make people seem foolish for asking about hit rating, you chose +Hit at the expense of another stat.

Pretty hypocritical for a guy who tries to make other people look stupid for asking about hit rating, isn't it?
Please, if you want to troll: WoW Forums -> Shaman Discussion that's your board.
It's not that complicated:
34 Attackpower and 16 Hit-Rating = 34EP + 22,4EP = 56,4EP
17 Strength and 16 Intellect = 37,4EP + 0EP = 37,4EP (with kings)
#4893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Deleted: Other people have already addressed what I posted.
#4894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Did you get a temp ban for trolling this thread previously? If not, your current posting trend is probably leading in that direction.
http://elitistjerks.com/search.php?searchid=651640
#4895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by drats

I also noticed that totem names are still bugged. Instead of reading 'Drats Fire Nova Totem does X' it reads 'Fire Nova Totem's Fire Nova Totem does X'. My magma totem was doing ~180 damage per pulse for Hyjal trash, and I'd love to see that added to the dps meters. < snide remark about blade flurry >
I think I recall reading somewhere that this functionality wasn't planned until WotLK. Just checking the WWS from the bosses last night were I was the only one dropping searing totem though, it adds a good ~70-100dps depending on the encounter. My searing did around 30k damage on Illidan, nothing too trivial. I dropped one during a fel rage on Gurtogg too, crit for nearly 1k 0_o.
Searing Totem VII - WWS

Last edited by Shabadu : 11/15/07 at 2:51 PM.
#4896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0GamingManiac
Yeah, this patch has been pretty much amazing. Not only am I not having threat problems anymore (used to be capped on Gurtogg and Teron, but was able to go all-out last night), but I also managed to save the raid twice with a timely SR during the last Fel Rage (and 10 dead) and a "last man standing" effort on RoS. Not to mention Doomfire, Azgalor's Rain of Fire, etc etc. The list goes on, and the only time I mana potted all of the last two nights was on Mother Shaz (lol @ Fatal Attraction while SR is up ).

Also, "Nikos/Aegospotami," I couldn't help but try to armory you and you seem to have an outdated/nonexistent character. Might want to update your profile?
#4897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lucentia
(the following is in response to Aegospotami and rather off topic of the thread, so go ahead and scroll past it if you don't care)

I don't really get it....

what is so hard to understand that 17 * .2 = 3.4 (extra AP from str when you have BoK) = 3.4 more EP for 17 str vs 34 AP

+hit (while not prioritized, still has an EP at 1.34 for entry raid - and it only gets better as your gear gets better) 16*1.34 = 21.44

3.4 is not greater than 21.44

+int on the other hand has no weight attributed to it, however I suppose it could, since technically it does increase spell crit.. sooo lets see spells (aka shocks)make up, what, like 8% of our damage. At 70 shaman have 80 int per 1% spell crit, so each point of int is going to increase your total dps by .001% (not pullin that out of my bum either - 0.0125% crit(per int) x .08(% total damage) = .001

Now if we say 1% crit will increase your total damage by 1% (not perfect but if i recall its pretty close) and crit rating has a weight of 2, 1% crit would have a weight of 44.16, x.001 = .04416 EP per int. (pretty obvious why we give it no value)


now.. i don't care how stupid you are, but i think if you can figure out how to post a reply, you should be able to tell that 3.4+ 0.707(hey look 16 int is almost 1EP)= 4.107 < 21.44, and if you can't make sense of that, i don't see how you have any right to even be on these forums, reading or posting.


(again sorry for posting off topic, but hey at least i did a little math pointing out the insignificance of int.. which.. really didn't need to be proven)
#4898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ DeeNogger
WF is a situational totem at best.
#4899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by DeeNogger
WF is a situational totem at best.
I agree. About the only time I use it is when I'm playing WoW, and that's probably only 5 to 10% of the time anyway.
#4900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Am I the only one annoyed by the sound Shamanistic Focus makes? It kinda surprises me that I have seen no bitching about it so far. Anyone know a way to turn it off?
#4901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lucentia
Weird... last night I didn't hear anything when Shamanistic Focus was going off... I am sure that now that i am aware that there should be a sound, I will hear it and be just as annoyed as everyone else.
#4902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sufferings
Its pretty bad...I have my game sounds done kinda low, but I know other melee in guild were complaining about it like crazy on Tuesday night in BT, lol. Hopefully they just take out the sound and not just nerf the spell.
#4903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Igniter
Originally Posted by berg
SR has clearly changed the game for us. Threat is a total non-factor and our dps got boosted (conveniently hidden from meters)

These are instances where I have been truly grateful about Shamanistic Rage.

EoS - P1 tanking. P3 with the seethe/ae spam is also so smooth now.
Gurtogg - if you get focused or hit by poison
Mother - Ports are completely harmless now.
L5 beams from council robot bastards.
Rogue focus, blizzard, flamestrike on council.

It is amazing. Shamanistic Rage has to be one of the top 2-3 PVE skills for any class in the entire game. But most importantly our mana burden is so low now that we can save SR to use it reactively.

Threat is still a factor, on nearly every fight, at least for me. My gear is pretty average at best for a 9/9 guild, and I have to cyclone WF/TA and almost always have to hold back a ton on Teron/RoS/BB.
#4904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Igniter
Threat is still a factor, on nearly every fight, at least for me. My gear is pretty average at best for a 9/9 guild, and I have to cyclone WF/TA and almost always have to hold back a ton on Teron/RoS/BB.
RoS and Gurtogg I had significant threat issues, but that's just about it anymore.
#4905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Illundai
It wouldn't be annoying if it didn't proc every sec I guess :P.
best thing is my raid seems to hear it more than I do.
"Yo, Amy stop critting so much"
"That, my friends, is the sound of mana efficiency!"

gotta agree w/ the SR change hype, given how slowly I run out of mana now, it is now much more up to me when I use SR, I am also glad to hear it works on Council trash l5 beam, i was hoping to test it yesterday but we haven't gotten to council this week due to our own stupidity on bosses this reset.

edit: ugh @ Bloodboil. To prevent having to worry about the threat cap and instead worry about stuff like the breath I simply dont do ANYTHING before the first fel rage phase, that tends to be a big enough lead for me to at least only melee during all other non fel rage phases, its annoying but I have to worry less.
#4906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Veritas17
Could someone here critique my gear/spec for me? (Edit: Since the new talent rework, and everyone has been going back and forth on if its good or not to pick up a few of the new things over, blah whatever if you HAVE TIME AND ARE BORED please take a peek) I'm trying to find out what are some things I can pick up that don't require a 25 man because im not always pulled in for our raids.

Things I know i'm lacking - neck/mainhand upgraded(it was HELL to find a heroic group pre-2.3) the totem from heroic MT and some boots.

Other than that I also wanted to know about when to start dpsing. My tank is damn good at getting aggro etc. but i'm so paranoid about grabbing aggro I'm hesitant to hit things quickly like everyone else does.

Could someone out there help me out?

The link to my shaman's gear is here http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Darkenlight

Thanks for your time folks i'm just trying to not suck.

Last edited by Veritas17 : 11/15/07 at 5:28 PM.
#4907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rapparee
If you are reading this for the first time, please read the entire first post before posting questions. Almost every question that's been asked recently has been answered in this post. Nobody here has any interest in perusing your armory and two dozen WWS parses just to tell you the same information that is posted below.
That's from the first post in this thread. It was true then, it is true now.
I'm not going to look at your armory and just say, if you can't raid you must:

Go to heroic instances: There are many good items that drop in heroics.
Go to heroic instances: There are badges that drop in heroics with which one can buy some good gear.
Get into battlegrounds: There are many reasonably decent items from the honor vendors.
Get into rated arena matches: There are several great items from arena vendors.
Get on Ebay: On any given day there is probably a character of the type you want in better gear posted for auction.
#4908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Anticipation doesn't need to be reworked; it's a great talent for PvP builds.

Toughness, on the other hand, is just weird. 5 talent points for like 3% DR?
#4909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.

And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.

I guess I should of stated that.

Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it.

Thanks tho?
#4910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Veritas17
so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.
Such as?

By the way I'm leaving for a backpacking trip tomorrow so if people see anything needing changes in the OP, best to give me a PM so that I don't overlook it when I return.
#4911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
Thanks Malan.

That comment wasn't a slight on you but the sims i've got and what not don't show the new things on my gear like how this expertise will effect my combat and a couple other things I was just trying to get some convo going :/

Have fun with your trip.
#4912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Veritas17
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.

And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.

I guess I should of stated that.

Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it.

Thanks tho?
If you want individual help on your gear and spec try the shaman forums over at worldofwarcraft.com, hell I might even jump over there and help you on it if you do.

Expertise is explained on the first page. Look up ZA gear on something like wowhead and compare it yourself. They provide the numbers for doing so on the first post as well.
#4913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
On this posts first page?

Maybe its my browser then as I had firefox crash and it's still got the same info from a couple weeks ago so I thought it wasn't updated :/
#4914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sufferings
Originally Posted by Veritas17
Yeah apparently you can't read either, I already said that getting into heroics was problematic at best on my server.

And there are a lot of new things that JUST came out in ZA and rep rewards that I haven't been able to keep track of so a lot of that info on the first page needs updated.

I guess I should of stated that.

Plus, I was curious about having expertise since that also wasn't on the first page from when I had been reading up on it.

Thanks tho?
Quoting from the OP:

Originally Posted by Malan
In short:
OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Fury] > [Fool's Bane] > [The Decapitator] > [Runic Hammer] > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4
There is info on picking a OH weapon which includes the fist weapon from ZA. And if you want to know about how good gear is, I hope you read the EP section (formally known as AEP). You can easily figure out how good gear is in there compared to what you have there. Don't ask someone else to do the math for you.


Originally Posted by Malan
VIII.12 Itemization - Weapon Expertise
Patch 2.3 will change all weapon skill rating into weapon expertise rating, which converts into Expertise skill at a rate of 3.95 expertise rating:1 Expertise, and reduces the chance for your target to dodge and parry by 0.25% per point of Expertise. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], which used to provide 10 dagger skill rating, will now provide 10 expertise rating (all weapons).

The parry reduction element of Expertise will have only marginal use in raid settings: mobs cannot parry attacks made from behind. Many bosses randomly turn to cast attacks and can parry while turning, but this possibility is too random to value significantly. Unlike parry, mobs can dodge attacks from behind and Expertise is currently the only way to reduce the number of dodges. The dodge reduction element of Expertise will vary from encounter to encounter: it will be useless against bosses that are constantly casting (e.g. Shade of Aran, High Astromancer Solarian, Reliquary of Souls) because mobs cannot dodge while casting, but useful against mobs that do not cast or only cast instant spells. Expertise has been shown to affect yellow damage as well as white damage, so under the second circumstance it is actually more useful than hit rating for enhancement shamans.

We still don't know how Expertise's dodge and parry reduction affect the one-roll white attack table. For now, the community is assuming that it converts dodges and parries into hits that do not have a chance to crit. On the other hand, we are now confident that Expertise will allow yellow attacks to crit, since they are resolved through a two-roll system. Thus, we will estimate expertise rating to be similar to the weight of hit rating, with some exceptions.

First, expertise rating is only useful in chunks, because there is no concept of having 2.5 Expertise - the Skill values are all rounded down to whole integers. To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again. This gives you a "white hit rating" equivalency. Note that this makes expertise rating EP discontinuous. One expertise rating may be worth 0 EP because it is not enough to give you an extra skill point -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 15 expertise rating -- while a jump of two expertise rating at the same point may have a surprisingly high EP -- e.g. you go from 14 expertise rating to 16 and thus 0.75% dodge reduction to 1.00% dodge reduction.

Next, we must account for the fact that Expertise, unlike hit rating, also effects the yellow damage from special attacks in addition to the white damage from auto-attacks. To correct for this, you need to multiply by the ratio of melee damage to white damage, or (Yellow % of damage + White % of damage)/(White % of damage). Also, because white crit rate as a percentage of landed swings decreases as hit rate goes up, but with the two-roll system, yellow crit rate stays constant, we must adjust for that. Finally, we must multiply by the EP of 1 hit rating, to convert our "hit rating" equivalency into EP.

Our final expertise calculation is:
<br /> \text {EP} = \lfloor \frac {\sum {\text Expertise}}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {\text {Yellow%} \times (1 + \text{Crit%}) + \text{White%}}{\text {White%}} \times \text {Hit EP} <br />

Example Calculation:
Assume that we are examining a new piece of gear that will bring our total Expertise Rating to 17, Hit EP is 1.4, Crit% is 30%, White% of DPS is 50%, Yellow% of DPS is 40% and the remaining 10% is shocks and searing totem.

Expertise EP = \lfloor \frac {17}{3.95} \rfloor \times 3.95 \times \frac {40 \times 1.30 + 50}{50} \times 1.4
Expertise EP = 45.12
Note that this value is not the EP stat weight of Expertise Rating, it is the total sum worth of the Expertise Rating on all your gear.
Its all there on the first page bud. So, if by saying the first page needs to be "updated" you mean that you want gear rated for you so you don't have to figure out the EP yourself, then yes, it does need to be updated. But in the real sense of the word, all the info is there for you to use and find out good gear yourself.
#4915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
Nope, definitely don't want someone else doing math for me but like I said, the first page didn't update for me on this machine for whatever reason. Firefox crashed and when it restarted things haven't changed for this first thread as I have it in a different window.

Alright appreciate it i'll have to go look it up on my fiance`s machine since this one still isn't updating it.
#4916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ugbutz
Hey guys. I've been following this thread since the beginning, really great help for the understanding of shamans class mechanics.
We were extremly unlucky with t5/t6 tokens for a long time so i'm still wearing my t4 helmet.
Since we downed illidan 1 month ago im hoping to get my hands on Cursed Vision of Sargeras and so passing for the t6 tokens. Today Zul'jin dropped Grimgrin Faceguard, nobody else wanted to take it so i picked it up.
Now my question: On the first sight it's a huge upgrade over t4, but is it worth it to loose the 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond? In a raid environment with around 40-50% crit rate it's quite a dps boost.
#4917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Veritas17
BTW Sorry Rapparee for being quite combative, it's been a trying day and didn't mean to be so vague in my post.
#4918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
ugbutz: Losing 1.2% of your DPS sounds pretty bad, but you can answer your own question.

Yo's simulates RED, just plug in your numbers.
#4919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Originally Posted by Atren
Blasted lands mobs are no longer reliable for hit mechanisms, NG is quite useless against them due to level difference. Any test on them would give great advantage for elemental.
The purpose was not to determine dps, but % of dmg done. I listed all numbers for comparison purposes if someone found it relevant. It's easy to realize that in that situation your ES will be over norm with no one eating the SS and your FS will be lower than norm with no debuffs on the mobs. I'd like to know what rough %'s people find.

Before 2.3 10% of my damage on BL mobs was shocks. Now it's about 16%. Same mobs as part of my test with varying %'s still shows a decent basis of comparison from 2.2 to 2.3 even if a raid environment will be different on some level.
#4920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by ugbutz
Hey guys. I've been following this thread since the beginning, really great help for the understanding of shamans class mechanics.
We were extremly unlucky with t5/t6 tokens for a long time so i'm still wearing my t4 helmet.
Since we downed illidan 1 month ago im hoping to get my hands on Cursed Vision of Sargeras and so passing for the t6 tokens. Today Zul'jin dropped Grimgrin Faceguard, nobody else wanted to take it so i picked it up.
Now my question: On the first sight it's a huge upgrade over t4, but is it worth it to loose the 3% crit bonus from Relentless Earthstorm Diamond? In a raid environment with around 40-50% crit rate it's quite a dps boost.
Quick and dirty method.

R.E.D. effect improves your dps by .03 * crit rate.
For example if your crit is 33.3% you are looking at a 1.0% melee dps gain from this effect.

Determine your melee dps using a simulator of your choice. Say it is 1000. The gem effect alone would increase your dps to 1010. (1000 * 1.01)

A difference of 10 dps.

Now reset the sim and add AP until you have gone from your original 1000 melee dps to 1010dps. The amount of AP you added is a rough approximation of the AEP value of the meta gem effect. (For me it was roughly 37 ap)

But do not forget that free agility. Take the AEP gain you calculated above and add 12x the AEP contribution of AGI for your gear and you have a decent estimation of the AEP contribution of that gem.

Then just sum the AEP contributions of both helms and go with what is best.
#4921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
nova

Post patch, im basically sitting with infinate mana.

I've turned to dropping fire nova every cooldown, and after it blows, i drop searing for a few seconds, no mana issues at all, basically fire nova is another shock for me.

Im not sure i could maintain all of it without 25% mana reduction on the totems, but it is something to consider when comparing elemental and resto as secondary trees. 15% more damage from totems isn't a huge percentage of our overall damage by a longshot, but it is something.
#4922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Veritas17
Nope, definitely don't want someone else doing math for me but like I said, the first page didn't update for me on this machine for whatever reason. Firefox crashed and when it restarted things haven't changed for this first thread as I have it in a different window.

Alright appreciate it i'll have to go look it up on my fiance`s machine since this one still isn't updating it.
You might want to do control+f5 (same as control+refresh) on the first post page. Control resets the cache in both firefox and internet explorer, I believe.

The other option is to use which ever browser you use to delete the cache. If it has no cache, it will be forced to query the entire page again. IE has settings to set how often it will check for non-cached versions (every time you open IE, every time you open the page, etc) which may help solve the problem going forward, also. I'm not sure if firefox has this sort of granular mechanism, but I've never had a problem with either one so I can't say offhand how much this will help you.
#4923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krom[Fenris]
Well, after some testing it appears the Stonebreaker Totems cooldown is 10seconds, no more. So basically if you have the buff up and you cast a shock there's no chance it will refresh. If someone else wants to work out the math for if it's worthwhile to try and time your shocks every 10 seconds instead of every 6 seconds, feel free :P
#4924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
God, I love this patch. Did Full MH and up to Akama tonight and I love it so much . Infinite mana, more dps (hidden on the meters, but can be shown in WWS at least) and I feel like I can finally go all out. Haven't done Reliquary or Gurtogg yet, but I usually had to stop dps on at least Anetheron, RWC and HWLN. Didn't have to tonight ^^.

Here's the WWS: Khaelyn - WWS (one of our messier raids, but hell I couldn't care even if I tried, really enjoyed myself tonight)

I was chaindropping Fire Nova and Magma Totems on Hyjal trash, it really does nice damage if you check overall. 220k from Fire Nova, 180k from Searing and 90k from Magma Totem. But as everyone else has said, the biggest difference is Shamanistic Rage, oh dear god how I love it. Allows me to pull aggro from a mob without having too bad repercussions, allows me to mitigate damage such as Death & Decay, Doomfire, Unquenchable Flames, whatever other AoE. Not to mention the extra threat reduction.


It really changed my playstyle, I usually at least waited 5-10 sec before dpsing a mob, now I just went straight in together with all the other melee, it was pure heaven .
#4925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
#4926SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
#4927SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Irukandji
Originally Posted by Illundai
God, I love this patch. Did Full MH and up to Akama tonight and I love it so much . Infinite mana, more dps (hidden on the meters, but can be shown in WWS at least) and I feel like I can finally go all out. Haven't done Reliquary or Gurtogg yet, but I usually had to stop dps on at least Anetheron, RWC and HWLN. Didn't have to tonight ^^.

Here's the WWS: Khaelyn - WWS (one of our messier raids, but hell I couldn't care even if I tried, really enjoyed myself tonight)

I was chaindropping Fire Nova and Magma Totems on Hyjal trash, it really does nice damage if you check overall. 220k from Fire Nova, 180k from Searing and 90k from Magma Totem. But as everyone else has said, the biggest difference is Shamanistic Rage, oh dear god how I love it. Allows me to pull aggro from a mob without having too bad repercussions, allows me to mitigate damage such as Death & Decay, Doomfire, Unquenchable Flames, whatever other AoE. Not to mention the extra threat reduction.


It really changed my playstyle, I usually at least waited 5-10 sec before dpsing a mob, now I just went straight in together with all the other melee, it was pure heaven .

ive had the SAME experience, I am nothing but thrilled with these changes.

I currently use Wicked Edge of the Planes + Merciless Glad, and am looking to upgrade to RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon, but according to the Sim my DPS would go down with RT/Syphon and would only improve by 4dps with Syphon/Syphon... yet with Dragonstrike/Merciless Glad it goes up 14dps and Vengful Glad/Vengful Glad up 10dps... thinking about switching to mace spec and making a dragonstrike =/ Im pretty disappointed that the Syphons aren't a bigger upgrade.

The leather belt / helm that drop in ZA are amazing too - i am thrilled since my guild is only 2/5 3/9.
#4928SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kombinat
I'm ecstatic with these new changes, although I have to add the caveat that I'm yet to raid with them. With Shamanistic focus up Earth shock costs 181 mana. (I usually have the sound switched off in game so I can listen to TS/music. thie sound effect makes me wish I'd never switched it back on.) In my gear, with the SS debuff on the mob, it's hitting for about 1k-1.1k. The damage reduction from SR is also a big deal. I've only tested it while grinding mobs for rep and cash at the moment, but I like very much what I've seen of the changes.

I honestly think that enhancement shamans are very very good at grinding/farming mobs now. I was at legion hold last night grinding locks. People would show up, kill a few mobs, then notice that they could only get one of the three pylons. I had the other two locked down, my kill rate was so insane. The other benefit to grinding is that with so much mana efficiency I switched the 5 points I had in cheaper heals into imp healing wave, .5sec off cast times adds up over a 2 hour grinding session.

I realise this is just anecdotal evidence, but I'll try to get a wws parse up of tonight's ZA run. I'd much rather run that raid for as long as it takes to get some weapon upgrades than grind the 14k honour I need for a S1 weapon.
#4929SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
Originally Posted by Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
NO WONDER! I was freaking riding 125% threat on VR, TRYING to die so I could battle ankh... and never pulled agro!
#4930SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Enh/Resto DPS Breakdown

Someone wanted to know dps breakdown for Enh/Res spec, but this was only for VR: But I'm a bit undergeared compared to the Ele/Enh poster I suspect.

Melee 174,815 = 45%
Windfury Attack 131,397 = 34%
Flame Shock 47,929 = 12%
Earth Shock 2,196 = 0%
StormStrike 29,390 = 7%

Note, my earth shocks were 'accidents' as we had an Elemental Shammy, and I was trying to ONLY flame shock, but habit... Also, I was twisting TA Totem like crazy because I was at 100% threat for so long. I probably spent a decent chunk of time not attacking because I thought I was hitting too much threat earlier. My shock damage probably could have hit upwards of 15% with a FS/ES rotation.

Last edited by Mengus : 11/15/07 at 11:47 PM.
#4931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Tarnop
Originally Posted by Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
A quick look in the shaman module of Threat shows:

-- Sets the Spirit Weapons modifier at 0.3 if we're dealing with a 2.3.x build
local SpiritWeaponsModifier = (self.IsTwoPointThree and 0.3) or 0.15
I updated my Ace mods yesterday evening.
#4932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dragonhoof
Originally Posted by Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
And where do you have this information from?

I checked Omen\Libs\Threat-1.0\ClassModules\Shaman.lua and found:
-- Sets the Spirit Weapons modifier at 0.3 if we're dealing with a 2.3.x build
local SpiritWeaponsModifier = (self.IsTwoPointThree and 0.3) or 0.15

The file date is 28. Sep. 2007, so it seems like it is updated for spirit weapons since a long time already.
#4933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Shabadu
Here's Teron through Illidan +comedy DST lottery on Gruul. Shabadu - WWS
You inspired me to run a 15 man alt pug of horridness. I thank you for this inspiration because it actually dropped!
#4934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
Also, one more thing, and I may have missed this being confirmed, but it seems that Stonebreaker Totem has a hidden cooldown of at least 10 seconds. I have yet to see it refresh the Elemental Strength buff on myself before it has worn off. I'm actually a little frustrated with the relic.
I said the Stonebreaker had a 10-11 second cooldown in my original posting... (can you put this in the OP Malan). Regardless, I got a 50%+ uptime on the buff on 0 resist targets (Blasted Lands Servants).
#4935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0bestpike
Malan, you write that Searing totem in 2.3 is doing 60-70dps. I wonder why mine was hitting for near or over 300 today (it variated). Thats 150 dps. Though i have call of flame talent, so 130 for enh/resto. That totem did 8% of my dps alone in void reaver. 150 dps that doesnt cause threat. what else can an enhancement shaman ask for...
#4936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0sarf
Threat-lib issues

Threat lib had a bug where it never detected the new 2.3 version (Antiarc posted about it in the Omen/ThreatLib thread).

It should be fixed now.

(essentially, he had forgotten to retrieve the actual version number and just used a constant "2.2.0" instead)
#4937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Ikuturso
Curious--I didn't check the code when I claimed it hasn't been updated, when it apparently has. Why I claimed that, though, was that yesterday, and even now (r54414.10) hitting a mob for 1000 melee damage causes Omen to display 850 threat, at least on my system. That should be only 700, right?

edit: the version check is the culprit, and the bug is still live. Specifically, self.IsTwoPointThree does not return true at the moment, so we are getting too much threat displayed on Omen. If it doesn't get fixed by your raid today, you can change the line quoted above to
local SpiritWeaponsModifier = 0.3

Last edited by Ikuturso : 11/16/07 at 5:27 AM.
#4938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Thanks for the omen heads up even though it was a bit late .

Best part about this latest patch was my whole play style changed.

I was basically dropping WF - Str then chilling for a sec then going in waiting for 3~4 seconds untill everything proced then dropped healing stream and searing totem.

It's fun seeing healing stream tick for 120+ on RoS

Seems it's time to start gemming my gear with 15+ stamina gems.

I just hit an all out low of 8k UB hp >_<.

Time to drop Blacksmithing & pick up enchanting for the 4+ to all stats.

Last edited by Bragor : 11/16/07 at 5:37 AM.
#4939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stigmata
I decided to quit a few weeks since, and until I accidently clicked on this bookmark had completely forgot about patch 2.3

Just wondering how it all turned out with the shaman changes? I have only seen 1 link to a WWS by someone with similar gear to what I had, (shabadu) can anyone else link some please, still interested in what sort of differences there are between pre 2.3 and post 2.3
#4940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Delita
The reason you are seeing an increase in Searing Totem DPS is the new AP -> spell damage talent in enhancement. In my current AP gear I have just under 500 +Spell damage... An increase of.... 500? I wonder if the temporary AP increase WF applies to the paper doll affects your spell damage for a split second? I wonder if you fluked out you could get an ES for 2300+ with the right conditions in T5 equivalent gear.
#4941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Neithan
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I decided to quit a few weeks since, and until I accidently clicked on this bookmark had completely forgot about patch 2.3

Just wondering how it all turned out with the shaman changes? I have only seen 1 link to a WWS by someone with similar gear to what I had, (shabadu) can anyone else link some please, still interested in what sort of differences there are between pre 2.3 and post 2.3

WTF you must be kidding me
#4942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by panny
I said the Stonebreaker had a 10-11 second cooldown in my original posting... (can you put this in the OP Malan). Regardless, I got a 50%+ uptime on the buff on 0 resist targets (Blasted Lands Servants).
Yeah I was wondering why that wasn't in the OP, had reservations about using the totem until I saw updated math with the CD info.
#4943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patrik
Originally Posted by Stigmata
.. can anyone else link some please ..
Wow Web Stats . Planning on return with Sunwell Plateau, Stigmata?

Anyway, I have to agree with what's been already said here - no need to hold back due to threat, more damage, better on the spot heals, Shamanistic rage acting as a Diet Shield wall, close to none manaproblems, I consider this patch nice early Christmas present.
#4944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simprider
Originally Posted by Stigmata
can anyone else link some
WWS
#4945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by Neithan
WTF you must be kidding me
I know, such a crime.


Wow Web Stats
If I had known about the omen thing I could of gone a lot harder on Teron instad of constantly twisting TA/WF, at times even backing away. >_>
#4946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Originally Posted by panny
I said the Stonebreaker had a 10-11 second cooldown in my original posting... (can you put this in the OP Malan). Regardless, I got a 50%+ uptime on the buff on 0 resist targets (Blasted Lands Servants).
I had a 50% uptime in the Maulgar fight, and slightly less on Gruul. The resist % was around the same. Our WWS parses got de-synched though due to some people running outdated Recount and lagging out as a result. I think like 5+ people in the raid were relogging around grow 9. I will get better data on Sunday in TK.
#4947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
WWS 2.2 vs. 2.3

This week is attunement week for us, so thankfully I have WWS parses from pre2.3 of the same bosses.
Also, before 2.3, I was a habitual totem twister with medium to low earth shock usage.
I've since honed my twisting skills and with 2.3 I use a ton of earth shock while still twisting to nearly 100% uptime of WF. I've not found an addon that counts debuffs on bosses, so I've not used flame shock all too often, fearing that I'd knock tongues off or something drastic.

2.2 _ the bladefist+merci glad axe, leatherboots from kara, no t5 4piece bonus, no band of devastation
Wow Web Stats i healed for morogrim, i interrupted priest on FL
Wow Web Stats

2.3_ syphon+syphon
Wow Web Stats
i interrupted priest on FL (so just look at my damage against Karathress himself)
On Vashj, i got the first two charges, so I did nearly zero damage in phase1.

Wow, i wish i could just delete this post. I was merely trying to put up what could be useful WWS information and it turns out that I did substantially less damage in 2.3 than in 2.2. Of course Leotheras is a terrible example to use, but Karathress and Vashj aren't shining examples of melee not influenced by randomness either. All in all, my data more or less just shows that in SSC, it doesn't matter what gear I'm wearing or what changes Blizzard does to my talents. The less than melee friendliness of the area counters any gearing decisions I could make. Hopefully keying is done and on Sunday or Monday, i can look through WWS of tier6 content and have some real results for folks, which I'll do some math on first, before wasting a post.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/16/07 at 5:12 PM.
#4948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I decided to quit a few weeks since, and until I accidently clicked on this bookmark had completely forgot about patch 2.3

Just wondering how it all turned out with the shaman changes? I have only seen 1 link to a WWS by someone with similar gear to what I had, (shabadu) can anyone else link some please, still interested in what sort of differences there are between pre 2.3 and post 2.3
Wow Web Stats

Edit: Silly me, I respecced resto for some arena... But I know what your gear was like, I'm about at the same level now. (T6 helm, gloves and shoulders, midnight chestguard, bracers and neck from anetheron, cloak of darkness, DS + Syphon, Stonebreakers totem, Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, Bow-Stitched leggings, Soft-Step boots from Teron, exalted hyjal ring and unstoppable aggressor, DST + Ashtongue trinket)

Last edited by Illundai : 11/16/07 at 6:45 PM.
#4949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Major Flurry Bug:

Just read it here and now tested it myself. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit.
#4950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Major Flurry Bug:

Just read it here and now tested it myself. If you have only one flurry charge left, you wont proc flurry with the next critical hit.
Thanks for the heads up. Went and tested it myself just to be sure before I posted on the US forums and it is indeed broken.

WoW Forums -> [Bug] Flurry is broken if you care.
#4951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tahirne
Originally Posted by Ikuturso
Heads-up for Omen users: it appears Threat/Omen hasn't yet been updated to reflect the change to Spirit Weapons--thus, it's possible that you are judging your threat higher than it actually is.
Thank you so much for this information, Last night during ZA I was completely confused when I went over our tanks and didn't pull.
We didn't bring a paladin, No salvation for the night.
#4952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
Wow Web Stats

4 SSC bosses

I'm content.

As previously said, if i new about the spirit weapons bug, i could have gone quite a bit harder.
#4953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Buanna
Has anyone else noticed Earth Shock not locking out schools, at least on NPCs.
#4954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ frmorrison
Originally Posted by Tahirne
Thank you so much for this information, Last night during ZA I was completely confused when I went over our tanks and didn't pull.
We didn't bring a paladin, No salvation for the night.
Omen was fixed (to have the new Pally and Shaman threat numbers) by at least afternoon of the 15th.
#4955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Areus
Originally Posted by Buanna
Has anyone else noticed Earth Shock not locking out schools, at least on NPCs.
Yes, this is especially noticible on the trash in MH with the Necromancers. They continue to chain cast thier Shadowbolts, even after being Shocked.
#4956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
everwatch
Originally Posted by Stigmata
I decided to quit a few weeks since, and until I accidently clicked on this bookmark had completely forgot about patch 2.3

Just wondering how it all turned out with the shaman changes? I have only seen 1 link to a WWS by someone with similar gear to what I had, (shabadu) can anyone else link some please, still interested in what sort of differences there are between pre 2.3 and post 2.3
Here are two WWS from my guild. They're sadly uninformative due to: me missing most of one raid, spending my time testing FT on one raid, and 2 raids of WWS being lost.

Full WF WWS (includes the Archimonde below) 1141dps overall
Archimonde WWS

Flametongue WWS 951dps overall
Shade was my high point using FT OH enchant at 1554 dps, followed by Teron Gorefiend at 1276 dps. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with WF next week!! I did newb up the FT one however using ES too much and FS not enough.

I've shown my shocks to range from fight to fight from 13% to 20% of my total dmg done. 16%/17% seems to be the sweet spot most common. Can anyone who is resto or ele side spec'd tell me what % of their dmg is from shocks? Or show a WWS? In ZA last night it was 18% of my damage. I am 16/45/0 atm, I used to be 0/45/16 in 2.2 and my shocks only accounted for 8-10% of my damage then. The Archie full report was at 13% but I was off my game that night and toying around with other things, so I know it's not typical. The FT report however is indicative of the norm for me. I'm not understanding why other people have Shock dmg ranges of 8-12% total only.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/17/07 at 11:12 AM.
#4957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
everwatch
Simprider and Khaelyn both have WWS with the dmg from their Fire Totem listed. Can anyone tell me how to get this to show in a WWS report? I'd like to be able to track Fire Totem damage if possible. Fire totems accounted for 4-5% of both of their total dmg done.


Originally Posted by bestpike
Malan, you write that Searing totem in 2.3 is doing 60-70dps. I wonder why mine was hitting for near or over 300 today (it variated). Thats 150 dps. Though i have call of flame talent, so 130 for enh/resto. That totem did 8% of my dps alone in void reaver. 150 dps that doesnt cause threat. what else can an enhancement shaman ask for...
In a full ZA run without optimal buffs my fire totems were (this doesn't include crits in the dmg numbers, only in the total raid % of dmg done):

Min/Max - Avg: % of total raid dmg done (crit %)

Searing Totem: 43/636 - 208: 0.7% (4.6%)
Magma Totem: 90/188 - 156: 0.4% (8.4%)
Fire Nova: 767/1071 - 945: 0.6% (3.6%)

So in a ZA run Fire totems accounted for 1.7% of the raid dmg. Pretty f'ing hot it you ask me. I'm only starting to remember to keep these down all the time, and I need to get a UI mod to upkeep it more.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/17/07 at 11:09 AM.
#4958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
In the Actor list, list Totems as pets and list it as your pet in the third column.
#4959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Originally Posted by Illundai
In the Actor list, list Totems as pets and list it as your pet in the third column.
I don't think I understand. Our GM logs the WWS. Would I need to be the one logging the reports in order to change that?
#4960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Ikuturso
Originally Posted by frmorrison
Omen was fixed (to have the new Pally and Shaman threat numbers) by at least afternoon of the 15th.
No, it is not fixed yet (today's revision 55025.2). The code is there (as quoted a few posts back), but the check that you are running 2.3 is not working. This results in Omen using the pre-2.3 15% Spirit Weapons modifier. You can simply remove the version check to force the new 30% modifier while waiting for the fix.

You can test this easily yourself by hitting a mob once and seeing how much threat Omen displays. If you don't modify the code, you will find it displays 85% of the damage done in threat.

Last edited by Ikuturso : 11/17/07 at 11:27 AM.
#4961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by everwatch
I don't think I understand. Our GM logs the WWS. Would I need to be the one logging the reports in order to change that?
No he can change it too. It's hard to explain to someone who never does the parses, but before you upload WWS you have to go through all the 'actors' in the file, that's the first column. You have to mark their class (second column). There is a 'Pet' class where you can put all the totems. Then in the third column, you can specify who that pet belongs to.

I hope that's a bit more clear. :P
#4962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Illundai
No he can change it too. It's hard to explain to someone who never does the parses, but before you upload WWS you have to go through all the 'actors' in the file, that's the first column. You have to mark their class (second column). There is a 'Pet' class where you can put all the totems. Then in the third column, you can specify who that pet belongs to.

I hope that's a bit more clear. :P
The only problem is that fire totems dropped by any shaman count together, there's no differentiation. This doesn't matter as much when you only run 2-3 shamans, but EJ routinely runs 5+ and the numbers add up.
#4963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0everwatch
Originally Posted by Shabadu
The only problem is that fire totems dropped by any shaman count together, there's no differentiation. This doesn't matter as much when you only run 2-3 shamans, but EJ routinely runs 5+ and the numbers add up.
We only have 3 raiding shaman sadly, 2 resto and me. I can get the 2 resto to do a raid or two with no fire totems in order to see how mine perform. That'll help me a lot in figuring out some things I am interested in, thank you!!
#4964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Shabadu
The only problem is that fire totems dropped by any shaman count together, there's no differentiation. This doesn't matter as much when you only run 2-3 shamans, but EJ routinely runs 5+ and the numbers add up.
Yeah I know, but our other shamans very rarely drop any fire totems, so I feel free to add it to my damage since 99% of them are mine .
#4965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Illundai
Yeah I know, but our other shamans very rarely drop any fire totems, so I feel free to add it to my damage since 99% of them are mine .
Same goes for me. Fire Nova averaging at 900, Magma Ticking for ~155 and Searing nuking for 220 just rocks.
#4966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by rava
Thanks for the heads up. Went and tested it myself just to be sure before I posted on the US forums and it is indeed broken.

WoW Forums -> [Bug] Flurry is broken if you care.
Also tested it on my warrior, same problem.
#4967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
I submitted a ticket last night about it and the GM replied that they were aware of the issue and were working to resolve it. Could be mindless dribble but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
#4968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
I'll be interested in seeing how they resolve it, given that flurry has been bugged for months (if not years) to give us more uptime that we should have. I wonder if this change/bug arises from their attempt to fix that.
#4969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
''The +hit and armor mitigation are high on the budget list. From what I've read on forums and else where here, one point of armor mitigation is roughly equivalent to four attack power for an enhancement shaman. This seems like a very high estimate, however, it is the only one I've heard thus far.

The plus hit, in my opinion, makes it almost viable for a hybrid PvP, PvE chest for Enhancement Shaman. The only waisted stat is the resilience in PvE.''

any opinions on that? this was found on wowhead at comments list for shaman s3 chest...
#4970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
1 ignore armor is equivalent to 0.28-0.38 AP, so that's off by at least a factor of 10. (Of course, the original post says that... it's kept up to date consistently and it's not too much to ask that people reread it if they have a question.) The 10 MP5 is also useless in PvE and thus a waste of item budget. So, that poster is pretty clueless about raiding as enhancement.

Whether it's "viable" or not is based entirely on what other gear is available to you... again, read the first post and use the stat weights.

Last edited by Rob : 11/17/07 at 11:07 PM.
#4971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
[Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Armor] has pretty decent pve stats, comparing it to

[Skyshatter Tunic], [Vest of Mounting Assault], [Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass] or [Cataclysm Chestplate] and using some middle gear ep values. But, if you don't need the stamina, you could easily run with a ilvl 105 craft instead -> [Shadowprowler's Chestguard].

[Ranger-General's Chestguard], [Terrorweave Tunic] and all the T5+ leather chests are a way better than it.
#4972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stylle
Sorry if this isn't precisely on topic but I'd rather not start a new thread. I have a question about enhancement shaman in a dps group v. resto shaman.

My guild just downed Kael and is looking to recruit shaman as we head into MH and BT. Should we be content to use a resto shaman in our melee dps group or does the extra contribution of an enhancement shaman make one essential?

A bit of context: We are the fourth place alliance guild on our server and we've found that good shaman are rather thin on the ground. So though an enhancement shaman would clearly increase our raid dps, it may not be worth the hassle of trying to get one if the effect isn't game changing.

Also, some of our officers have concerns about enhancement shaman personal dps and threat management. I personaly think that this isn't a problem but would like an authoritative voice to back me up on this.
#4973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Peterbilt
Hi again. Just finished catching up to the end of the thread, and I have a couple of quick questions. I'm not looking for someone to do math for me or anything like that. I just want to know if I'm understanding certain things correctly. Anyway, here we go:

1. AEP (or EP) values fluctuate depending on your stats. i.e. if you have 400 STR, the EP value will be lower than if you had 200 STR.

2. With that in mind, my current gear set puts me at approx 420 str unbuffed, and 178 agi unbuffed. Should I start looking for agi + atk pwr pieces over str pieces to bring agility back on par with my str?

3. Is there a simulator like Yo's that calculates off actual gear input instead of number inputs? I realize that Yo's gives the true mathmeticians much more detailed ability, but I'd like to know if there's something out there where you can input the gear pieces and it calculates based off that.

As always, forgive me if this has been covered. 200 pages is a lot to try to remember a specific. Eagerly awaiting the wiki format. ; )

Thanks in advance.
#4974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Stylle
Sorry if this isn't precisely on topic but I'd rather not start a new thread. I have a question about enhancement shaman in a dps group v. resto shaman.

My guild just downed Kael and is looking to recruit shaman as we head into MH and BT. Should we be content to use a resto shaman in our melee dps group or does the extra contribution of an enhancement shaman make one essential?

A bit of context: We are the fourth place alliance guild on our server and we've found that good shaman are rather thin on the ground. So though an enhancement shaman would clearly increase our raid dps, it may not be worth the hassle of trying to get one if the effect isn't game changing.

Also, some of our officers have concerns about enhancement shaman personal dps and threat management. I personaly think that this isn't a problem but would like an authoritative voice to back me up on this.
Threat WAS an issue. It sure in hell isn't now. Maybe Gurtogg and Reliquary, but that's it. As for personal DPS, there are plenty of WWS parses floating about to show what kind of DPS you should expect - although it will be lower depending on the gear of the Shaman in question, specifically his weapons. And he should know the basic theorycraft at least, which is why this thread exists! A shaman with Flametongue on his 1.5s speed weapons isn't going to do the DPS most of us put out.

As for the difference in between Resto and Enhancement. Depending on the spec of the Resto Shaman (we'll just assume he hasn't got Enhancing Totems) You gain more 12.9 Strength for the group (or 25.8 AP for Shaman/Warrior), 133.5 more AP from Windfury Totem procs for the group and 10% attack power for the whole group (which translates rougly in about 300-450 AP to each person raidbuffed and flasked I suppose?).

Up to you to decide if it's worth it, I for one think it's huge, at least.
#4975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kreltok
Originally Posted by Stylle
Sorry if this isn't precisely on topic but I'd rather not start a new thread. I have a question about enhancement shaman in a dps group v. resto shaman.

My guild just downed Kael and is looking to recruit shaman as we head into MH and BT. Should we be content to use a resto shaman in our melee dps group or does the extra contribution of an enhancement shaman make one essential?

A bit of context: We are the fourth place alliance guild on our server and we've found that good shaman are rather thin on the ground. So though an enhancement shaman would clearly increase our raid dps, it may not be worth the hassle of trying to get one if the effect isn't game changing.

Also, some of our officers have concerns about enhancement shaman personal dps and threat management. I personaly think that this isn't a problem but would like an authoritative voice to back me up on this.


Resto shaman can drop SoE and WF totems, Enhancement shaman drops improved versions of both

With an enhancement shaman everyone in that group gets an added 10% attack power further increasing DPS

Personal DPS of an enhancement shaman isnt meter topping most of the time, but it can get into the top 5 pretty commonly and can easily get over 1k DPS if geared correctly

If you guild isn't using Omen or a threat meter then the Shaman may have threat issues, but since 2.3 our melee attacks generate 30% less threat (up from 15%) and our shocks have gotten bigger and cost less mana. Personally I can hit upwards of 1200 DPS sometimes now, usually hovering in the 1k-1.1k range and i am at your gear level for the most part.

With an enhancement shaman, to determine if his DPS is worth bringing just think like this.

Enhancement shaman might be doing 800 DPS (a bit on the low side)
But his melee group is getting 150DPS+ (200+ for fury warriors) each from having him in the group.

That puts him at 1400 DPS right there, high enough to contend with any Pure DPS class in the game.

If you are running a melee group without an enhancement shaman, you are missing out.
#4976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Kreltok
With an enhancement shaman, to determine if his DPS is worth bringing just think like this.

Enhancement shaman might be doing 800 DPS (a bit on the low side)
But his melee group is getting 150DPS+ (200+ for fury warriors) each from having him in the group.

If you are running a melee group without an enhancement shaman, you are missing out.
Dunno what enhancement shamans you been looking at but I do 1400-1500 DPS consistantly on most bosses, upto 1700-1800 on certain bosses (Teron, RoS for example). In karazhan gear I was able to do 1000 dps, pre 2.3 so 800 is wayyyyy too low.

For well geared rogues, from personal experience they gain 5-6% extra damage from WF, which you can look at around 60-100 dps depending on fight. MS warriors actually gain less from WF, if they use a tight slam cycle they may only get 2-3% extra from WF. Most raid buffed rogues/warriors will have ~2500-3000 AP (excluding procs) so unleased rage is adding 250-300 AP minimum to the other 4 dpsers in the group. So the main benefit of a enhancement shaman is actually unleashed rage + personal DPS, whether or not this is > than the damage of one of the other melee dps in the raid is dependant on player + gear I guess.
#4977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Anyway :
An enhance chaman does ~80% of an equally geared/skilled rogue (when you put them in the same group). The chaman improves the melee's dps in his group by about 15 to 20% (windfury + strength totem + 10% attack power aura). If you take a standard melee dps group (fury warrior, feral druid, 3 rogues) and replace a rogue by an enhance chaman you will undoubtly see an increase in dps.
Thats very, very wrong. Since 2.3 our damage is way higher than 80% of a rogues, it's easily 90% on most fights, with the exception of certain fights with threat limits/clos advantage.

Just for example (hope they work), this is a Hyjal clear this week. Don't think anyone was using consumables, well I know I wasn't atleast.

Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal - He aggro'd some npcs for first 30 secs of fight screwing up everyones dps
Archimonde wipe (he had 20k hp left till 10% lol)
Archimonde kill

Pretty average clear, was just a farm raid so can't say everyone was doing thier max dps.

Oh, you can also see I was getting a 40-45% uptime on the stonebreaker totem.
#4978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Peterbilt
1. AEP (or EP) values fluctuate depending on your stats. i.e. if you have 400 STR, the EP value will be lower than if you had 200 STR.
Yes, EP values fluctuate depending on stats. No, if you have 400 STR, the EP value of 1 STR won't be lower than if you had 200 STR -- because AP (and therefore STR) are the baseline stats for this system. But, if you have 400 AGI, the value of 1 AGI will be lower than if you had 200 AGI, and the same holds true for crit rating, hit rating, and haste rating. Armor penetration scales in a weird way and probably has a constant EP value for a given set of other values.
2. With that in mind, my current gear set puts me at approx 420 str unbuffed, and 178 agi unbuffed. Should I start looking for agi + atk pwr pieces over str pieces to bring agility back on par with my str?
No, that's not how you do it. Get a set of EP numbers, and then run the numbers on items that are available to you. If one item is 130 EP and has AGI/AP and another item is 150 EP and has STR, you pick the 150 EP item -- you don't care what stats are on it. I happen to have more AGI than STR, but it's not because I'm actively pursuing AGI/AP items, it's because those are the best available to me when I run the numbers. Run the numbers, there's no way around it.
3. Is there a simulator like Yo's that calculates off actual gear input instead of number inputs? I realize that Yo's gives the true mathmeticians much more detailed ability, but I'd like to know if there's something out there where you can input the gear pieces and it calculates based off that.
Tornhoof's sim (look in the OP or search) is intended to do this. It's still under development. There are also other sims that claim to be able to do this, but their accuracy sucks.
#4979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Ok I updated the DPS of searing totem to 100-150, and added a note on Stonebreaker about the 10 sec cooldown. Does that cooldown change the uptime calculation?
#4980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jamoth
DST

@Malan: some nights ago i was discussing with tornhoof about the estimation of AEP of DST as you assume it has a 1.5ppm. As DST has an internal CD we wonder what procchance DST has when beeing outofCD. So I went on the PTR with a rogue and did some testing. I assume it has an internal CD of 45 seconds and a procchance outofCD of ~10%. Prof me wrong, but 1.5ppm as you state might be wrong, 1.0-1.1 would be a better guess I think which would end in 120AEP at 1.0ppm.
(proc, 45sec cd, and about 20 hits for the next proc which is >10seconds).
#4981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Is there evidence of a 45 sec cooldown?
#4982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by Malan
Ok I updated the DPS of searing totem to 100-150, and added a note on Stonebreaker about the 10 sec cooldown. Does that cooldown change the uptime calculation?
Presumably, the uptime calculation as written is valid as long as the result is greater than 10 seconds (and it's currently at ~14).
#4983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Shery
This might be a rather stupid concern; but taking into account that im dual wielding the same weapon (and thus they have the same speed)... is it really relevant if I choose to enchant my MH or my OH with Moongose/Crusader? If im not wrong they should proc the same on both (we hit with our two weapons the same number of times and our stormstrike is a dual attack). Am I right on this or does the hit rating of our OH have a rather big influence on it? Thanks in advance

Pd: in the Op it says: "Some information on Executioner can be found here. Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond Executioner will be valuable to have on either hand. (It does not matter which hand you enchant)"; but im not sure if this last part is referring only to the executioner enchant or to general procs of weapon enchants.

Last edited by Shery : 11/18/07 at 7:05 PM.
#4984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vim
Mongoose MH
Crusader OH

You would be better off DW Mongoose though. The OP shows that Mongoose > Sader > Potency. Both enchants will probably be proccing on each available CD, so to be honest I doubt it really matters which hand you put either on, but use Mongoose on the weapon you will be keeping longer. Doing this also reduces the number of /w " Noob!! put Sader on OH lololol!" youll be getting from people.
#4985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shery
Hehe ok Vim; thx a lot for the advice ^^
#4986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
OH does not suffer any sort of proc penalty, so no, it doesn't matter which hand.
#4987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?
#4988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai
I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?
Post how it turns out for you. I've been thinking of getting it on my OH too, butttttt double mongoose procs are so nice :/

Has anyone done any solid maths yet?
#4989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
excutioneer OH vs. MH

Since this is theorycrafting:
IF procs apply to the hit that generates the proc, then you should put executioner on your MH.
IF procs do NOT apply to the hit that generates the proc, then you put executioner on your OH.

I have no combat logs to prove this. It's simple logic applied to the game mechanics.
Scenario1 assumptions:
1. The hit that produces a proc DOES NOT benefit from that proc.
2. The character has non-synchronized attacks. (i.e. dual wielding, the weapons rarely strike at exactly the same time on the server. Don't worry about storm strike)

In this case, the way to get the maximum amount of main hand attacks during the executioner proc is to have the executioner enchant on your offhand. So that the offhand produces the proc giving you executioner buff and your main hand swing is somewhere in the middle of it's cycle time, not at the absolute beginning of the cycle.

Scenario2 assumptions:
1. The hit that produces a proc DOES benefit from that proc.
2. You don't care if you have have synchronized attacks.

In this case you naturally want the executioner enchant on your main hand, since your main hand will receive the full duration of the proc for atacks.


Scenario3 assumptions:
1. You use synchronized attacks. Both weapons are always the same speed and you don't screw up the out-melee enter melee range with auto-attack on playstyle.
You simply shouldn't care what hand has the proc, since both weapons are always striking at the same time, you will either receive the full benefit or miss out on an entire swing timer's worth of the benefit of any proc.

Scenario4 assumptions, only one enchant of mongoose is available to me:
Mongoose gives 120 agility and some haste, that means you already "hit" or "crit" in order to produce the proc, therefore the hit/crit itself gains no critical strike bonus from any new source of agility. Since you're not a rogue or hunter and gain no AP from agility, your damage will not be increased on the hit that produces the proc regardless of whether it should.
Therefore if for some reason only one of your weapons has mongoose, you should always place it on your offhand, so that your main hand will spend the maximum amount of time under the duration of the mongoose proc.

Naturally if your mongoose enchanted weapon kicks the crap out of your other weapon, then put it in your main hand.


FINAL NOTE: Disquette says (in a few posts) that the hit that created the Unleashed Rage proc never benefitted from UR. Therefore, scenario1 is probably the safest way to think about the situation. Thanks for that information Disquette, sorry that my post was confusing.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/19/07 at 3:44 PM. Reason: editted for clarity
#4990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Executioneer should go on the MH, since it will provide the biggest return in terms of damage from a main hand hit.
The buff affects both weapons why would it matter what hand you put it on?
#4991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
I'm currently using Executioner on my MH. I put it on my Decapitator the first time I saw someone offering the enchant and again on my Netherbane (which replaced the Decapitator). I like it enough where I'll always have one of my weapons with it. I don't have any sort of math or WWS to prove whether it is really better or not. But it seems to be doing well and that's good enough for me.
#4992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Illundai
I'm gonna try out Executioner on my OH soon, although it's a pretty damn expensive experiment, but oh well...
Any other Shamans tried it out yet?
All I can tell you is how it feels. I cant be very objective here because of several factors.
1) I got it the day of 2.3 which had a ton of buffs.
3) I got 2 new items that day (chest/syphon (the new executioner weapon))

It feels like a superior enchant on one weapon, I set several new records on RoS the next day with it. However that is only to be expected given that mongoose does not actually give higher damage numbers, just more crits. In any case my thinking on it is that its approximately the same proc rate, bonuses to crit (basically all mongoose is to us at ~5% crit and 3% haste) have less degrees of return the more of it that you have. However something like executioner works exceptionally well with other armor penetration items anyway so you can only go up with an enchant like executioner.

again however this is just my viewpoint on this and there is no real fact here.
#4993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ecomix
Totem Twisting Addon

There used to be a mod that would aid in totem twisting, it's no longer on the first post. Can someone give me the link to that mod pretty please? Or is it no longer functional and thus removed for good?
#4994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Its still there, its Disquette's mod. Look in the Useful Links section.
#4995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
It's in my sig, Ecomix. Twisting is turned off by default. do /dqd twist to enable that bar.

Originally Posted by Mox
Thats very, very wrong. Since 2.3 our damage is way higher than 80% of a rogues, it's easily 90% on most fights, with the exception of certain fights with threat limits/clos advantage.

Just for example (hope they work), this is a Hyjal clear this week. Don't think anyone was using consumables, well I know I wasn't atleast.

Rage Winterchill
Anetheron
Kaz'rogal - He aggro'd some npcs for first 30 secs of fight screwing up everyones dps
Archimonde wipe (he had 20k hp left till 10% lol)
Archimonde kill

Pretty average clear, was just a farm raid so can't say everyone was doing thier max dps.

Oh, you can also see I was getting a 40-45% uptime on the stonebreaker totem.
You may be suffering from a lack of performance of your other raid dps (from gear, talent builds, playstyle, whatever). I've done 1440 dps on Rage Winterchill (compared to your 1580), and you have much superior gear to mine (I've upgraded since then, and I still have no BT or Hyjal loot). On a fight like that, our rogues who are geared in BT/Hyjal just destroy me, usually in the 1800 to 2150 dps range. 1800 dps compared to your 1580 is a 14% increase. the 2150 dps compared to your 1580 is a 36% increase. The 2150 isn't standard, I realize, as he has the twinblades legendary set, but even our lesser Hyjal/BT rogues pull 1800.

Here are the only 2 wws's I see easily available.

Wow Web Stats
(the 1700 dps rogue is pvp spec'd :p )

Wow Web Stats
(note - this was the one week we didn't have an enhance shaman in raid, top rogue dps is still 1984)

Please don't take this the wrong way. I'm guessing you really know how to play well, and your dps shows it. The rest of your raid may need to step it up some, however, for you to see the same sorts of ordering that many posters here are used to.

Also, I know you said since 2.3, but do you believe that you are doing 15% more damage than you used to pre-patch?
#4996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mkael
Hi first post so I assume you should expect the normal ignorant stuff but lets hope I surprise you.

Ok I have followed this thread a long while and followed most of the recommendations to the letter, I also always specced into resto for the 3% hit bonus (as well as increased range and totem cost).

In a deluded moment after I got the Stonebraker totem I thought "hey this is 10sec cd 50% chance so why not see how much uptime I can get by speccing into reverberation.". Now as you can imagine its a silly thought the increased uptime is minimal but hey was a thing of the moment.

Anyway I raided SSC with it (Wow Web Stats) and when I looked at the WWS log after I started to wonder how much the shock damage increase was compared to what 3% hit would give me.

So I calculcated the 3%hit value out of the melee damage (afaik wf and the rest is hit capped so 3% hit doesnt mean anything for those given your base hitrating is enough) and compared it to the increased amount of shocks by their average value and I always got more dmg out from shocks than from the hit.

Calculation example from Mkaels try on Morogrim.
Melee damage= 202317, 15.2% misses
Earth Shock damage= 26900, 24 hits, avg=1120
Flame Shock damage= 45223, 29 hits, avg=1559

For ES we get 24 hits on 5 sec CD which gives 120sec and accordingly for 6sec CD 20hits.
Thus for ES we gain= 26900-20*1120= 4500

For FS we get 29 hits on a 5 sec CD which gives 145sec and accordingly for 6sec CD 24hits.
Thus for FS we gain= 45223-24*1559= 7807

These combined gives a total of about 12300.

For the 3%hit we just do (202317/(100-15.2))*3= 7157

Granted this is a bit simplistic, the extra hits and the potential impact from them isnt included but its hard to track also it isnt a huge impact and also correspondingly we dont take into consideration the increased shock damage (5%) or fire totem damage (15%).

I looked over several WWS logs linked in this thread and come to the same conslusion in all the ones I looked at.

So plz tell me what I am doing wrong here or is the 2.3 changes so good that speccing elemental for the increased shock value such a boost?

/Mkael
#4997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
It feels like a superior enchant on one weapon, I set several new records on RoS the next day with it. However that is only to be expected given that mongoose does not actually give higher damage numbers, just more crits. In any case my thinking on it is that its approximately the same proc rate, bonuses to crit (basically all mongoose is to us at ~5% crit and 3% haste) have less degrees of return the more of it that you have. However something like executioner works exceptionally well with other armor penetration items anyway so you can only go up with an enchant like executioner.
Since you relate your records to RoS, I'm going to assume you'r talking about p1?
The armor level of p1 has been calculated to be 0, which would mean that your new records are only because of your new weapon.
#4998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Mkael,

I'm not totally convinced that for a personal dps scenario, elemental isn't competitive, or even better (I'm going to leave imp ankh and totem radius alone). However, don't forget that the 3% hit from nature's guidance also applies to spell hit, so your shocks will be resisted more as well.

I actually am inclined to think that the elemental build would do better, but there are four things preventing me from playing with it much:
1) I value the totem radius more than the extra couple % the elemental build would add
2) I haven't followed all the math that closely where people have gone over this. My own feeling is that it's more dps, but many of the posters here who I hold in high regard I believe have expressed doubt that reality would match my gut feeling. That's a big incentive for me to stick with the resto side.
3) In pvp and heroics, I end up casting healing wave a reasonable amount, so the utility from resto as a non-raider isn't trivial.
4) It's just different, and until I see some very clear data (sims would be fine, if they're comprehensive), I tend to stick to tried and true.

To be quite honest, once damage meters start incorporating fire totem and assigning it to the person that dropped it, I suspect many shaman will indeed change to an elemental build for superior personal damage parses.
#4999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Since this is theorycrafting:

I'll go with some assumptions, that I hope I'm remembering correctly.
If an attack produces a proc... you receive the benefit of that proc on that hit, when it makes sense.

So if the proc is 320more haste, you don't get any benefit on the hit that produced the proc. Haste makes no sense since the attack already landed.

If the proc gives 120 agility, that means you already "hit" or "crit" in order to produce the proc, therefore the hit/crit itself gains no critical strike bonus for agility. However if you get AP from agility, your damage will be increased.

If the proc gives an armor reduction, that means you will do more damage, as long as the target had any armor as you hit it.

CONCLUSION - straight up theory, i have no proof that the executioneer proc will adjust the damage of the hit that created the proc:
Since an offhand weapon is reduced in damage done... Given two equal weapons, shaman and warriors should always put mongoose in their offhand first. Since mongoose does nothing for them on the hit that procc'd it.

Executioneer should go on the MH, since it will provide the biggest return in terms of damage from a main hand hit.

Rogues have to figure out if the AP bonus from mongoose is better than executioneer for the main hand... I'd wager a guess that if the mongoose is better for their main hand they'll just double mongoose anyway making this part of the post moot.
I'm sorry if this is quoting too much text, but it's all relevant, I believe to my response. When you attack and proc unleashed rage, the attack that proc'd it doesn't get the UR benefit. This is how I recall it working from way back when, when I was first building my simulator and I was swinging at servants in blasted lands with 0.9 dps weapons (low damage range) for the express purpose of seeing how things like this worked.

As a result, I'd say you'd actually want executioner on your OH so you don't have to wait a full main hand delay before the main hand benefits from it. Conversely, if mongoose is worth more to you, then you'd want mongoose on your OH so that the MH would benefit from the added crit sooner.

If you have rock solid data to prove me wrong, that's fine. Anyone can test this with unleashed rage, however, using exactly the method I mentioned above - get a low damage range weapon, wear your normal gear, and swing away for a few procs with a combat log running.
#5000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
We're doing Teron -> Illidan tomorrow most likely, so I'll get back with a parse with Executioner on my OH.
#5001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jamoth
Originally Posted by Malan
Is there evidence of a 45 sec cooldown?
I'm sorry, my information was wrong. The testing i mentioned was to find out the procrate outofCD, i just counted the number of hits until dst proced... and trusted the information given to me about the 45 seconds CD. I just tested that, and 45 seconds is obviously wrong. The estimated 1.5ppm are still ok. Ty Malan
#5002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Personally i am planning on putting executioner on next weapon i attain (keeping dual Mongoose for time being) if by that time hear positive feedback about it :P Especially as i am thinking of finally going to Arena axe (i hope i can break 1850 rating :P) over dragonstrike. Now one very important note here is has expertise been fixed or in process of being fixed? I mean the fact that wielding OH axe would give me 5 expertise for my MH mace too. or was that a display bug in first place?

Another thing about expertise: either i missed or noone here has yet done conclusive test to see if expertise converts into hit or miss? Sorry, if i missed the post.

Concerning elemental vs enhance -- it would probably come out as advantage to elemental, altough all maths in the comparison are stacked towards elemental a bit. Namely of those 3% extra hits some are bound to proc WF, taking flat 20% it would be 0.6% more WF's. Even with that i dont think resto will have more damage over elemental, just dont go for elemental devastation as that is useless still especially as weapon mastery and MQ require you to put way more than 41 points into enhance. It comes down to personal choices -- pure damage vs some utility and flexibility (10 yard bigger range, 20% more health and mana if ankh if spec for it).
#5003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Fenre
"Hit Rating Gear"

Well, I realize that it is hard to calculate how much hit rating would be best for the individual shaman. However I'm going crazy when I'm testing the different items I have. I'm not going to link those since it would'nt help anyways.

First of all, does anyone know how much armor dmg mitigation the different bosses in SSC have? Not that it would matter towards comparing the different items, but it would be helpful to see if the simulator I use, shamulator, is accurate.

Well, here it is:
With my "lower hit rating gear":

AP: 1424
Crit Chance: 25.64%
Hit Rating: 124

With my "higher hit rating gear":
AP: 1402
Crit chance: 25.03
Hit Rating: 163

(yes i have the +9% hit talent specc)

When I tried simulating this i got about the same amount of DPS from both gear sets, with about 0.2% difference. Do you know if this could be true, or could someone link me a better simulator if the one I'm currently using is inaccurate.

EDIT: Or are the differences just so small that it would'nt matter?

Last edited by Fenre : 11/19/07 at 3:28 AM.
#5026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Yo, if you're out there -- I need Expertise Rating, Executioner and Stonebreaker options, buddy. Pretty sure [Shifting Camouflage Pants] are the best thing since sliced bread but would like confirmation before I burn 75 badges. PS: you need a tip jar, too!
#5027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Wow Web Stats

WWS for Teron -> Illidan with Mongoose / Executioner.
#5028SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Yo, if you're out there -- I need Expertise Rating, Executioner and Stonebreaker options, buddy. Pretty sure [Shifting Camouflage Pants] are the best thing since sliced bread but would like confirmation before I burn 75 badges. PS: you need a tip jar, too!
Maintaining decent shock spam on a long stationary fight (Tidewalker, and I never got graved) I got an uptime for the stonebreaker buff around 35%, so you can crudely add a static 38ap for it in Yo's sim. Yo's sim is not going to be able to model anything but perfect shock spam anyway, so I don't think much is lost by including it in this manner.

As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them. Unless you're already stacked with really high amounts of armor penetration, I don't see the mail beating out the leather badge rewards.

Last edited by Skiace : 11/19/07 at 7:43 PM.
#5029SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Finally got our WWS updated. Here's a few of the more melee dps friendly encounters:

WWS - Teron
WWS - Kaz'rogal
WWS - Shade of Akama
WWS - Reliquary of Souls
#5030SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Stop attributing all the fire totem damage to you, you cheat. :P
#5031SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Not my logs! I'm not sure how many he's attributing to me.

Actually I think the only fight I might have gotten more than my fair share was RoS.
#5032SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
All 'Searing Totem', 'Fire Nova Totem', 'Magma Totem', 'Greater Fire Elemental Totem' and 'Earth Elemental Totem' damage count as 1 entity each (as in all the damage ALL Searing Totems do are merged into 1 Searing Totem).

So, all of them!
#5033SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
I know they do, and they're all mine. Except on RoS. Please explain the finer points of WWS to me.
#5034SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Not my logs! I'm not sure how many he's attributing to me.

Actually I think the only fight I might have gotten more than my fair share was RoS.
To be fair, the only one I checked was Teron where it was just an extra five Searing Totems.
#5035SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Actually I forgot to account for the Searing Totem crits so I'm probably being attributed a decent amount of extra damage on average. Anyway, the purpose of us all posting these WWS was to illustrate the affect 2.3 had on our shock damage. That's pretty much all that has changed for me, other than Shamanistic Rage being completely overpowered on a lot of fights because of the 30% damage reduction. Mana wasn't an issue for me before, and it's even less of one now.

It's pretty fun having infinite mana. The rotation we can use requires much more focus after you start working in totem twists and Fire Nova Totem's. I still mess up the shocking quite a bit and lose a decent chunk of damage from that.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/19/07 at 11:27 PM.
#5036SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I need to work on my e-sarcasm it seems . I was merely saying that the amount you'd gain from another Shamans' totems would be so awesomely overpowered that we totally shouldn't add the damage to ours! It's so totally cheating! Nevermind me, long day and I'm tired :P.

On a more serious note, I don't think I regret enchanting Executioner on my Syphon, seems to be better than double Mongoose anyway, but that's just a gutfeeling as its very hard to compare them really.
#5037SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Yeah, I don't think the other shaman keep it down nearly as consistently as I do, in fact I'm willing to bet they probably cast it only once on a fight like Teron where it just dies quickly, but even then Searing Totem is going to be a decent chunk of dps. Especially after 2.3. I think I'll have him only attribue Fire Nova Totem to me from now on. Or just have the other shaman not drop fire totems for the sake of seeing how well it actually does.
#5038SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
What kind of rotation do you use? I actually still only use Searing on fights unless there is some AoE component (Reliquary, Akama, Illidan, ...)
#5039SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vingumminr9
Originally Posted by Skiace
Maintaining decent shock spam on a long stationary fight (Tidewalker, and I never got graved) I got an uptime for the stonebreaker buff around 35%, so you can crudely add a static 38ap for it in Yo's sim. Yo's sim is not going to be able to model anything but perfect shock spam anyway, so I don't think much is lost by including it in this manner.

As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them. Unless you're already stacked with really high amounts of armor penetration, I don't see the mail beating out the leather badge rewards.


Okay .. i know this aint about this discussion ^^ But how do you get the a link that shows the item when u "mouseover" it ?
#5040SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by vingumminr9
Okay .. i know this aint about this discussion ^^ But how do you get the a link that shows the item when u "mouseover" it ?
["item"]Mace of Awesome["/item"] but without the quotes
#5041SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Desall
As I'm the other shaman in Khaels (Illundai) logs.
I've been popping searing on Gorefiend, Bloodboil, RoS, Illidan.
In retrospect I could've done so on Shahraz and council as well but forgot.

I'm pretty sure Khael has a way better uptime as I'm often distracted by healing.
#5042SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
The whole Fire totem ownage thing should be fixed with the new combat log API in 2.4. Instead of text strings that have to be parsed every time, addons will be getting well structured data. This should also greatly enhance threat and damage meters.

The combat logging mechanism is completely overhauled with explicit data instead of text strings delivered to the UI. See slouken's post below for a sneak-peak at some of the current details. Highlights include detailed flags indicating relationship of involved units to player, unique identifiers for units with the same name within the combat log -- great for log analysis.
#5043SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tana Umaga
Um, this may have been talked about before, but the forum has soooo many pages... and now that it came out...

Do you use Fire Nova on bosses? Or any other Fire totem? I use Searing Totem when there´s no problem with adds being unsheeped, unfrozen and the like, but never thought on using Fire Nova. Not even bound xD

And of course Fire Elemental (although sometimes i am a bit afraid... does anyone knows if the elemental is subjected to proximity debuffs such as wrath of the astromancer?).

Thank you guys, this thread is wonderful, i´ve learnt a lot about my class.
#5044SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shakkha
I have a question about Ring enchants, i don't believe it has been discussed before.

Right now i use +2 dmg on both my rings, but i'm having a hard time trying to figure out how those are to be considered in terms of AEP, to compare with the now easily accessible +4stats enchant.

Does anyone know which would be the best to use? Or just how many +2dmg enchant can be translated in terms of AEP. I assume it would depend on weapon speed, i'm dual wielding 2.7 weapons.
#5045SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Disquette
Thanks a bunch for the reply. It would indeed be interesting when people are going all out, what the ordering is. On the other hand, Yo!'s sim *should* show our max theoretical dps. Similarly, the rogue dps spreadsheet from their forum thread should show theirs. I'm in a rush now, but it might be interesting to see how the dps comparison *should* be given similar gear and effort.
Yo's sim gives me a theoretical dps of 1658, with only the normal group buffs/raid buffs (Battle shout, motw, might, kings + flask) using 3000 armor. I think it may actually be an underestimate, altho it's hard to say exactly how much armor bosses have now days with all the debuffs active, on teron this week I had 1560 dps without a flask/excluding totems but I have no idea what the armor was (full sunders, CoR, FF etc).

On RoS phase one I'm able to do 2200-2400 DPS, but ofc the boss has no armor in that phase so again it's alittle unrealistic.
#5046SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
+2 damage to both weapons.(no oh penalty)
So AEP value for 2.7speed weapons
2 *(2 / 2.7) = 1.481481wDps
Using 8.48 Aep per wDps +2dam = 12.56Aep

Stats is superior.
16.8Aep + 4* stamina, int & spi.
#5047SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai
Wow Web Stats

WWS for Teron -> Illidan with Mongoose / Executioner.
I'm not exactly sure how to work out if executioner has provided any benefit or not, the numbers you get are pretty much in the same range as mine for those bosses so it doesn't *look* like any advantage.

On a different note, you guys still using your ashtongue talisman? I've gone back to my brooch (waiting for the ZA trinket to drop) as I was getting a really lame uptime with the other, with SS dodges and stuff it felt like it was only up every 20-30 seconds :/
#5048SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
On the stonebreaker totem, from my logs I've got:

Rage - 39% proc rate (9 procs from 23 shocks) with a uptime of 39% (90 seconds of 226.8 seconds combat)
Aneth - 35% proc rate (11 from 31) with a uptime of 28%
Archimonde - 42% proc rate (16 from 38) with a uptime of 39%
Archimonde 2 - 47% proc rate (18 from 38) with a uptime of 43%

(sorry if this has been said before) The problem with the totem imo is that you will always use a shock during when its active, so efftectively its only available to proc from 50% of your shocks at a 50% proc rate (however I feel this may be higher) since when I do shock it nearly always procs, feels alot more like 75% proc rate, anyone else?
#5049SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Icon of Unyielding Courage - Items - World of Warcraft Icon of Unyielding Courage where would this come on the trinket charts?
#5050SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vykromond
Using the values in the section "VIII.1 Itemization - Stat Weights",

[Icon of Unyielding Courage]

Entry Raid: (1.34*30)+((600*(20/120))*.22)= 62 EP
T5 Raid: (1.4*30)+((600*(20/120))*.28)= 70 EP

It's pretty bad. You'd be better off with the Hourglass and Abacus from other 5-mans.
#5051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok this Executioner discussion is getting stupid. "Oh yah its great here's a random WWS parse which does nothing to illustrate how good/bad it is!"

Come on. Use the tools we have available. We have an EP stat weight for Armor Penetration. Yo's sim can be easily manipulated to test it as well. Figure out the estimated passive -Armor benefit that execution provides and add that in the sim to your -Armor stat, and remove mongoose from one weapon. Run the sim. Compare against running the sim with double mongoose.

I cannot fathom how we've now got 2-3 pages of people asking the same shit over and over about "has anyone tested Executioner yet????"

@Pitbuller - you just used an EP value for a 2.7 weapon, while the ones we have available are only for 2.6 speed. Did you calculate a 2.7 EP value recently? If so, hand the values over!
#5052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
8.48 and 4.24 is EP values for all same speed weapons(assuming equal wf procs). Purely theory based. Only thing what mess things up is how windfury procs divided beetween mh and oh.

EDIT: Yo's simulator give same dps to 12.56ap or 0.741dps to mh and 1.482dps(no oh penalty) to oh.
EDIT2: The whole wDPS is now 10% higher than its should be becouse of mental quickness.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 11/20/07 at 12:07 PM.
#5053SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.
#5054SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Skiace
As for the pants, I think [Shallow-grave Trousers] (leather badge reward) comes out ahead of them fairly easily. In fact, using the generic T5 EP values, [Void Reaver Greaves] and [Skulker's Greaves] also beat them.
Not quite at T5, so whatever badge pants I get will be a substantial upgrade. Assuming T4 doesn't drop tonight (my melee would love +12 STR).

I was thinking [Shifting Camouflage Pants] would be nice for when Executioner procs, but comparing them with my personal EP factoring in Executioner as a full time buff (for s&g), [Shallow-grave Trousers] are still way better.

Sigh...was hoping I'd have at least one mail upgrade with this patch.
#5055SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
The leather badge rewards are pretty superior to the mail ones overall. Slightly annoying since none of the leather I was considering as an in-between upgrade had any -Armor on it, but all the mail does (but would be a downgrade in most cases).
#5056SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
The only reason my parse is there to illustrate the proc rate, which is the important part for a lot of people I presume? I might be dumb or retarded, but since when can you run the sim and add a value for a proc without knowing it's uptime? From what I can read in the Executioner thread, no one even knows how much PPM it is, or how much the proc chance is. It wildly varies, not to mention all the people in that thread are warriors or rogues.

So for those who didn't really pay attention to my parse, my Executioner had similar amount of procs to Mongoose, however the annoying part is that the refreshing of the buff isn't counted by WWS, so yah it's probably best to assume same ppm and procrate as Mongoose. And if you haven't read the other thread, the proc % is estimated to be about 5.1% - 7.4% and a ppm of 1.09 - 1.51. But they have wildy different numbers in between tests with weapons with different weapon speed, and so forth.

Pretty much means that it's very hard to calculate the difference between Mongoose/Mongoose and Mongoose/Executioner. From personal experience, it's not worse at least. If it's better or not is going to depend on your own EP values and preferences. I think I'll be sticking to it, just only for the glow already!
#5057SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Isn't the purpose of EP from weapon DPS is to help us understand how much additional EP (from stats, procs, etc) a lower DPS weapon would need to have to exceed the usefulness of a higher DPS weapon?

Since we know that slower weapons with the SAME DPS as faster ones contribute more to overall DPS, the EP MUST be different for different weapon speeds. If this weren't true, I'd have offhanded the [Guile of Khoraazi], rather than vendoring it once I discovered this thread.
Wdps EP isnt for comparing different speed weapons.
If you use faster but same speeded weapons your dps will fall but ep value for ap isnt change same thing goes for Wdps ep.
#5058SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?
Mongoose Proc is 120 agi and 2% haste (31.52 haste rating at lvl 70). Using the AEP in the OP, this is (120 * 2) + (31.52 * 1.48) = 286.65 AEP

Executioner is 840 Armor Pen. 840 * 0.25 = 210 (low estimate) or 840 * 0.30 = 252 (my value from Yo!)

Just some thoughts on this: The AEP value I got for AP was 0.3 from Yo!'s sim. The change in AEP value from 0.25 to 0.30 netted 42 AEP. The low-gear AEP estimate is 0.19, which gets Executioner 159.6 AEP. In order for executioner to have the same AEP as Mongoose, the AEP value for AP needs to be 0.34. (840 * x = 287) Executioner's benefits are 100% gear dependent, so there should be a crossover point at which Executioner is better than Mongoose.
#5059SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
Just out of curiosity, was my post regarding Executioner a month ago totally off the mark?

You also have to consider the benefit of gear on mongoose too, using my values from Yo's sim I get 315.16 for mongoose and 302.4 for executioner.

Malan, assuming same proc rate as mongoose what would be the constant passive -armor for executioner? (useless at working that stuff out).
#5060SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
If executioner have same proc rate than mongoose. Uptime is then 37%(with Yo's simulator default values)
0.37 * 840 = 310.8 passive armor penetration.
#5061SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Since armor penetration gets better the more of it you have, I don't think you can fairly consider Executioner in terms of a constant passive amount. +840 for 20s per minute would be ever so slightly better than simply +280 straight up (although to be honest, it takes a ton of AP to move my stat weights significantly in simulation).

I picked up Executioner yesterday (out of convenience -- had no enchant on my upgraded hammer, no guildy has Mongoose even though we've brought down Moroes a hojillion times but we got Executioner on the first kill). I can only say it beats the piss out of Crusader.
#5062SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
If you're not willing to consider it as a passive amount than there is zero basis for comparison between any proc and a passive effect. You have to reduce procs to a passive in order to compare them. And yes, -Armor is better the more of it you have, and the sim will reflect that but a mathematical comparison cannot.
#5063SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
I agree that the procs shouldn't be reduced to a passive benefit before comparison, but if the proc rate is the same, and the buff duration is the same, can't we directly compare the enchants? If not than my post was dumb, but if so there should be a point at which Executioner > Mongoose. The stat weights for your gear would need to be determined via simulation, but after a bit of sim runs with people picking up -armor, we should be able to come up with a general rule about when it is better.

This is my noob attempt:

Mongoose: 120agi, 2% haste (31.52 rating)
Executioner: 840 -armor

a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor

They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.
#5064SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Well even using the standard EP values that makes Executioner better.
#5065SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
They give the same benefit when:
120a + 31.52h = 840p
(120a + 31.52h)/p = 840
(30(4a + 1.05h))/p = 840 (Rounded haste rating down)
(4a + 1.05h)/p = 28

So if you take your stat weights and plug in the values, and you get a number > 28, Executioner is superior.
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
#5066SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
ed.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:50 PM. Reason: Double posting again (why does it do that?)
#5067SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
a = EP for 1 point of Agi
h = EP for 1 point of Haste
p = EP for 1 point of -Armor
Since what we really want is to solve for the minimum EP value for armor penetration that will make Exec equal Mongoose:

(4a + 1.05h) / 28 = p(equal worth)

Plugging in the T4 EP:

(4*1.74 + 1.05*1.28) / 28= p
(6.96 + 1.4144) / 28 = p
8.3744 / 28 = p
.29 = p

Lo and behold, that's higher than the T4 EP for Armor Penetration (.22). For T5, it works out to .34

Looks like I made a bad choice.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/20/07 at 6:57 PM.
#5068SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Thanks for the fixes. Apologies for the errors. I just wanted to move the Executioner vs. Mongoose debate in a more constructive direction.

Moogle mentioned, in a previous post, that off hand was the better choice for the enchant since the hit which procs the effect does not gain the benefit from that effect. This is a bit from a WWS parse:
03:44'31.400	Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 654
525	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
907	Ilmatar's Melee hits Astromancer for 313
947	Astromancer's Molten Armor hits Ilmatar for 75 Fire damage
03:44'32.291	Ilmatar gains Lightning Speed of NULL
306	Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1056
306	Ilmatar's Windfury Attack hits Astromancer for 1057
306	Ilmatar gains 124 Mana from Water Shield
306	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
713	Ilmatar gains Haste of NULL
719	Ilmatar gains 74 Mana from Judgement of Wisdom
It appears that the Lightning Speed (Mongoose) proc occurs before the Windfury hit. So I am thinking that, if you want to mix enchants, it actually doesn't matter which hand has the Executioner proc, with regard to the next windfury hit. It still stands to reason that a normal melee hit will not gain the benefit.
#5069SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Bargle
With the formula you gave, decreasing values of p (armor penetration AEP) will give a higher result, so it should be results < 28 mean executioner is superior.
Correct. Which means that the "Low End EP" numbers would list Executioner as *worse* than Mongoose. Makes sense because there is no other -Armor at that level to use. Early T5 values (Our standardized EP value) list it as pretty damn close to Mongoose. And once you're hitting T6 content the -Armor EP value in the sim hits 0.33 for almost everyone, and at that point Executioner becomes better.

[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)

Last edited by Malan : 11/20/07 at 9:07 PM.
#5070SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Malan
[e] I just saw Stonebreaker totem proc in Hyjal off of a magic immune banshee. Looks like even if the shock is resisted or immune we can still get the buff. (Which by the way is really annoying how it looks like BoW constantly refreshing on me)
I think that the banshees are unique, because even with the magic immune shell you can still ES their curse to interrupt it. Could have been changed but on test I went out to SMV and shocked that banished demon for about 10 minutes straight without seeing a proc.
#5071SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
#5072SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Banshees aren't immune to magic. They just cast Anti-Magic Shell, which absorbs magic damage.
er.. yea

We took the week off of raiding for the holidays and I'm already slipping.
#5073SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I did notice that it still procs off Rank 1 shocks which is nice.
#5074SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Hm. Is there a fixed amount of AC on bosses or at least a common amount on most bosses? And does the damage reduction from AC on a boss scale like on a player?

Just wondering if a boss can have a large amount of AC, it gives a scaling damage reduction like on players and thus removing a fixed amount of armor will be very in-effective on high AC bosses, and very good on AC light bosses.
#5075SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
On the first page of this forum: [RAID] Boss armor values
#5076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Bah. I have to improve my search skills.

And from the empirical evidence in that thread it looks like most bosses are around the same AC so calculations are pretty stable. Sorry for the wasted bandwidth.
#5077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan
If you're not willing to consider it as a passive amount than there is zero basis for comparison between any proc and a passive effect. You have to reduce procs to a passive in order to compare them. And yes, -Armor is better the more of it you have, and the sim will reflect that but a mathematical comparison cannot.
While you're right we have to convert executioner into a passive amount, you're incorrect in stating that we can't compute this amount. We can.

The algorithm works as follows
Given
armor pen = 2600 (5 sunders)
mob armor = 7700
mob level = 73
uptime = .25

We get that, while it is up, executioner provides a 0.036306% increase to dps that takes into account armor.
We then multiply this by the uptime to get the passive increase: 0.00908
We then calculate how much armor pen is needed to produce this increase with 100% uptime.
at 5100, thats 218.

This is far less than the 240 value we originally used.

Infact, if you preform this calculation with 0 sunders up, the value is only 217.
If we preform this on a mob with 1000 armor, the value is only 221

I would there for suggest we consider executioner as a passive 218-219 increase in armor pen.
#5078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by tzenes
you're incorrect in stating that we can't compute this amount. We can.
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was saying that the value of Armor Penetration changes based on how much you currently have available. If you have 0 Armor Penetration, an item with 100 Armor Penetration is worth less than if you had 1000 Armor Penetration already, because the amount of damage reduction shaved off is much higher from 1000 to 1100 than from 0 to 100. That's what I'm saying we can't compute if we're comparing Executioner vs Mongoose in a vacuum.
#5079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan
I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was saying that the value of Armor Penetration changes based on how much you currently have available. If you have 0 Armor Penetration, an item with 100 Armor Penetration is worth less than if you had 1000 Armor Penetration already, because the amount of damage reduction shaved off is much higher from 1000 to 1100 than from 0 to 100. That's what I'm saying we can't compute if we're comparing Executioner vs Mongoose in a vacuum.
Thats ok, I was just trying to be rhetorical.
#5080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
That's what I'm saying we can't compute if we're comparing Executioner vs Mongoose in a vacuum.
This is really the crux of it. The performance of Executioner will be drastically different in a solo environment (doing daily quests) versus PVP (against lower player AC values) versus raids (heavily debuffed NPCs). Unfortunately this is a very difficult comparison to make right now since Executioner's proc rate has yet to be fully nailed down. I would be extremely surprised if Mongoose isn't the better enchant for solo play, but I'd also be very surprised if Executioner doesn't prove to be a superior enchant for raiding if you take full advantage of Sunder, Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness and have any amount of -AC on your gear.
#5081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
I don't really know if I can rely on the EP values Yo's sim gave. I tryed to find out how much armor penetration do I need to be sure that executioner will be better than mongoose on one of my weapons. I input my data and set hours to 10,000. Increasing the base value of armor penetration did not increase the EP value of it. It stayed at 0.29 even after +400 armor penetration. I don't think gaining 400 armor penetration is not big enough.
#5082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Nemaa
I don't really know if I can rely on the EP values Yo's sim gave. I tryed to find out how much armor penetration do I need to be sure that executioner will be better than mongoose on one of my weapons. I input my data and set hours to 10,000. Increasing the base value of armor penetration did not increase the EP value of it. It stayed at 0.29 even after +400 armor penetration. I don't think gaining 400 armor penetration is not big enough.
I think the sim may under estimate armor penetration, from my runs it takes executioner being 350 -armor (passive) untill it equals mongoose enchant. According to the boss armor thread 300 -armor should be [300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%] @ 2190 mob armor, the sim comes out at 1.86% so thats a 0.3% difference.
#5083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Are you comparing Execution/Mongoose to Mongoose/Mongoose? Or Execution/none to Mongoose/none?
#5084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Malan
Are you comparing Execution/Mongoose to Mongoose/Mongoose? Or Execution/none to Mongoose/none?
Thats with mongoose on MH, none on OH. to test the % increases of -armor

2190 boss armor, 0 penetration.
2190 boss armor, 300 penetration.

edit, when I was comparing mongoose to executioner, I did mongoose/mongoose, then ran mongoose/none, and gradually increased the -armor value untill it equalled my mon/mon dps, and it took 350 -armor to get there...
#5085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Mox
I think the sim may under estimate armor penetration, from my runs it takes executioner being 350 -armor (passive) untill it equals mongoose enchant. According to the boss armor thread 300 -armor should be [300 ArP: 2.16%/1.95%] @ 2190 mob armor, the sim comes out at 1.86% so thats a 0.3% difference.
did you remember shocks make up 5-10% of your damage?

2.16 *.9 = 1.94
what would make a .08% difference, which could be accounted for by statistical deviation.
#5086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by tzenes
did you remember shocks make up 5-10% of your damage?

2.16 *.9 = 1.94
what would make a .08% difference, which could be accounted for by statistical deviation.
The shock dps remained the same, 241 for all runs. Therefore the only thing increasing would be physical dmg.

So no.

Just for clarity, Ive done the runs again and i'll show my results.

1880 AP/33.98% crit/20.03% hit

0 -armor + Mongoose/Mongoose my dps is 1656
300 -armor + Mongoose/Mongoose my dps is 1689 (Thats a 1.95% damage increase)

0 -armor + Mongoose/None my dps is 1622
300 -armor + Mongoose/None my dps is 1653 (Thats a 1.87% damage increase)
350 -armor + Mongoose/None my dps is 1658, finally equal to Mongoose/Mongoose.

So, either the sim is undervaluing armor penetration or you need to stack alot more before it's worth getting executioner.

edit, seems the sim has the correct value for armor penetration, but my point on the amount needed for executioner to be equal to mongoose remains.

Last edited by Mox : 11/21/07 at 1:24 PM.
#5087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Mox
edit, when I was comparing mongoose to executioner, I did mongoose/mongoose, then ran mongoose/none, and gradually increased the -armor value untill it equalled my mon/mon dps, and it took 350 -armor to get there...
I'm wondering if the proper methodology would be to match None/None (with passive -Armor for executioner) to Mongoose/None.
#5088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Mox
The shock dps remained the same, 241 for all runs. Therefore the only thing increasing would be physical dmg.

So no.
I don't want to get into a long debate about this, but if I understand you correctly

You saw a 1.84% increase in your total dps (melee + shocks)
and you expected a 2.16% increase in your melee dps, which should be a 1.92% increase in your total dps
#5089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by tzenes
I don't want to get into a long debate about this, but if I understand you correctly

You saw a 1.84% increase in your total dps (melee + shocks)
and you expected a 2.16% increase in your melee dps, which should be a 1.92% increase in your total dps
Oh, lol doh. yes your right nm totally forgot that even tho shock dps stays the same the % of it changes as your other damage does. I just worked it out taking off shock/totem dps and it comes out to a 2.2% increase in dps from 300 armor penetration.

So yes the sim is using the correct values for -armor.

Last edited by Mox : 11/21/07 at 1:53 PM.
#5090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
glad I could help
#5091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok I just ran a series of very short sim runs checking the difference between my current stats with None/None enchant, Mongoose/None enchant, and None/None (300 passive -Armor). I was hoping that this would illustrate only the difference between putting Mongoose or Executioner on a single hand. If Executioner is truly worth around -300 armor, it came out as a consistent 2% increase in DPS over Mongoose. As I said though I did short sim runs, not very scientific at all. Just ran 100 hours about 10 times for each case, checking to see that the values were consistent each time and then just eyeballed an average.
#5092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm wondering if the proper methodology would be to match None/None (with passive -Armor for executioner) to Mongoose/None.
I did those runs too out of interest,

None/None = 1588 dps
None/None with 240 -armor = 1612 dps
Mongoose/None = 1622 dps

Stacking up -armor doesn't really help its case much either as it also increases mongoose/none dps. Think maybe a better model is required for executioner.. either that or Yo updates his sim :/
#5093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan
Ok I just ran a series of very short sim runs checking the difference between my current stats with None/None enchant, Mongoose/None enchant, and None/None (300 passive -Armor). I was hoping that this would illustrate only the difference between putting Mongoose or Executioner on a single hand. If Executioner is truly worth around -300 armor, it came out as a consistent 2% increase in DPS over Mongoose. As I said though I did short sim runs, not very scientific at all. Just ran 100 hours about 10 times for each case, checking to see that the values were consistent each time and then just eyeballed an average.
What we need is the average % uptime.

at 37%, executioner is worth 321
at 25%, executioner is worth 219

thats over 100 armor pen in difference.
#5094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You're right, and the problem is listed above - the Executioner thread has test results that wildly vary for the uptime.
#5095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Sufferings
Talking about uptime of executioner:

I have been testing this with MH Mongoose (dragonstrike) and OH Exec (Syhpon). Last night we cleared the first 4 in Hyjal and then Highwarlord/Supremus in BT.

I included all but Supremus as I was running in and out constantly. I died on Highwarlord around 25%, but when I popped, I was retarded and did it to close to a shield and the shield pop one shot me :P I included it however, since I was constantly hitting him until I died.

This is what I found, as far as uptime for this enchant (WWS included):

Rage Winterchill: 28.57% uptime
Anetheron: 34.7% uptime
Kaz'Rogal: 28.57% uptime
Azgalor: 24.19% uptime
High Warlord Naj'entus: 26.04% uptime


So, pretty much for last night I was geting around a 26-28% uptime, with the Anetheron kill be a little higher than average and Azgalor being lower than average. I can't explain a reason for the Anetheron being high, but I don't have enough FR to stay in on Azgalor the whole time, which is probably why those numbers are lower. I stayed active because I would back out and then chain lighting and lightning bolt till I could go back in.

Anyways, I know this isn't by any means the end all be all of this enchants uptime, but hopefully this info with other logs will narrow the actual uptime of the enchant.

EDIT: Of course, WWS will not account if it procced and refreshed an existing buff. So, the percentages could be slightly higher.

Last edited by Sufferings : 11/21/07 at 4:26 PM.
#5096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shawndreya
A bit off topic, and I'm not entirely sure if it's been ocvered or not but I searched and got nothing for it. Anyways, with the new spell damage talents, wouldn't STR and AP be worth more AEP in item stat weights now?
#5097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Str and ap ep values are flat 2(2.2) and 1.
Other stats ep value go roughly 10% down becouse of mental quickness.
#5098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Since we are equating other stats to AP, Str will always be worth 2.2, AP will always be worth 1.0. Other stats should decrease in value compared to these two stats to reflect their effect on our spell damage.
#5099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bullworth
Changes for 2.3.2

Elemental Shield changes Looks like they are changing water shield again to be something akin to a passive mp/5 buff. The change to a 10 minute buff is a god send on my middle click though and our global cool down.. Will have to wait and see if it’s as affective as the current spell for enhancement shamans.
#5100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
The change says that it will still provide the exact same mana/time as the current implementation, so yes it's the same thing. Just less refreshing to do.

Regarding AP/Strength - AP is the basic measurement of the EP system. It will always be worth 1.
#5101SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
These were my simulation details, 3 simulations 10,000 hours. I used 310 passive armor penetration for the executioner enchant. My problem is that the -Armor values I get with the simulations are not really different. Does that mean I should get a lot more passive armor penetration to see any difference or maybe the simulator is whong somehow?

#5102SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Malan
You're right, and the problem is listed above - the Executioner thread has test results that wildly vary for the uptime.
Malan, I've been running the mod Uptime Meter and the Executioner enchant stays up around 36% of the time, over 4-5 hours of testing each night for the past week. Keep in mind that there are also times that I am not DPSing for whatever reason, so the actual % does indeed seem to be closer to 40%, certainly well above 25%. If you
#5126SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
I am gonna go on a limp here & Say opis is pulling numbers.

Checked his gear & He is very undergeared to pull numbers like that.

Having only 22% Crit/~1350 AP/~12% hit from gear (???) while having some strange gemming really puts your words to stress.

Cause at your current gearing you are pulling more dps then the rogues themselves.
#5127SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0jbartens
Opis Like malan stated if you have 3% in excess tohit then by allmeans go that way. But tbh if you have that much +hit you really need to take a deep look at the OP. And 5% more damage vs 3% less chance to hit with spells. Allready here we have issues regarding efficany for a resto/enhancment build. Agian run Yo!s sim. Read and conclude things your self
#5128SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Khlysti
Under the premise 'for new content survivability > raw dps' and looking ahead to see what spec will be of use in the future, I gave enc/elem a try this week. My expectation was that dps would drop a little from my usual enh/resto but I wanted 'real' in game numbers so I could decide if the survivability gained from Elemental Warding was worth the loss.

I was pleasantly suprised however that once I got used to working with a 5 sec shock cooldown I was putting out very similar numbers to the week before.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft is the build I am using now, and although the shorter range on totems is a slight issue on parts of the hyjal trash the total number of redrops needed is minimal, and mana is a complete non issue. Call of Flame with over 1000 + dam does lead to some fairly impressive fire totem numbers.

So far, for me atleast, it seems the dps difference between enh/resto and enh/elem is very small, small enough that in my opinion the real question is do you prefer the utility of longer range buff totems and improved ankh, along with a few more spare gcds to play with, or the extra survival of elemental warding.
#5129SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Opis
Well, true enough, but it's actually a 22% increase to overall shock damage, if you subtract the 3% that the Resto talents would add. That only goes so far, as well. Maybe my word choice was somewhat lax, but the results are somewhat apparent. I went from roughly 850 dps to 1100 on sustained fights after the change. Granted, I have 19.87% to hit without the Resto 3%, so the change isn't quite as jarring. Since +hit is readily attainable on Enhancement gear, it isn't unrealistic to assume that you could approach the cap without the 3% from Resto. At that point, would it not be true? That was my question.
shocks tend to make up 5-10% of your total dps.

So which is a bigger change... 22% of 10 or 3% of 90?

I'll give you a hint... I'm still enhance/resto
#5130SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Khlysti
Originally Posted by tzenes
shocks tend to make up 5-10% of your total dps.

So which is a bigger change... 22% of 10 or 3% of 90?

I'll give you a hint... I'm still enhance/resto
3% hit will, unless you have near to 0 hit on gear only effect white hits so on a very simple level its more like 3% of 45%, 0.03*0.45 = 0.0135 0.22*0.1 = 0.022

Those numbers are from earlier posters, and the calculations are clearly very very rough, but enh/resto is not simply 'the right answer' as it used to be, both resto and elem minors are very very similar (at my gear level atleast) at the moment.
#5131SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
TradewindKlaatubarada
I don't see how elemental warding is *that* important.

As of now, our mana efficiency is SO big that we're barely on need of Shamanistic Rage to keep mana for the whole fight (assuming no totem twisting).

This leads to the point where you're not using Shamanistic Rage exactly every two minutes, but most of the time you keep it as a strategic factor for certain phases / points of a fight.

So, where you could've needed that edge that elemental warding provides, now you have Shamanistic Rage.

In my opinion end-game is so previsible and so deadly at the same time, that either you prevent that damage or you die to it - elemental warding rarely makes a difference. I could think of Illidan P2 as a useful situation, but the amount of damage you receive there is more dependant on other factors to be such a big deal anyway.

So in my opinion, it is better to go for the 100% active buff (hit) than a situational and rarely life-saving damage reduction.

EDIT: As for the shock damage increase discussion, I'm already too threat capped to think about increasing a bit of DPS that is not affected by the 30% reduction from talents. I tried the spec tho, and couldn't spot such big difference on my usual 7-9% damage from shocks.

Last edited by TradewindKlaatubarada : 11/23/07 at 7:55 AM.
#5132SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Audrix
Mod Talk:

I like the wf3sec mod its simple and easy to see. Bad part or not really bad but annoying is that you have to hard code your position values. I use x=-400, y=-100. Some one mention Avion but it doesnt seem to be updated for 2.3. I havent tried yet to see if it works but looking throu this thread it doesnt seem very popular. Also, I remember reading that wf3sec mod would show when invigorate proc but have yet to see it happen. Anyways, I wanted to know if anyone could sugest a mod for tracking water shield/invigorate or probably intergrated with WF3sec kinda look and feel.

thx
#5133SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Audrix
Mod Talk:

I like the wf3sec mod its simple and easy to see. Bad part or not really bad but annoying is that you have to hard code your position values. I use x=-400, y=-100. Some one mention Avion but it doesnt seem to be updated for 2.3. I havent tried yet to see if it works but looking throu this thread it doesnt seem very popular. Also, I remember reading that wf3sec mod would show when invigorate proc but have yet to see it happen. Anyways, I wanted to know if anyone could sugest a mod for tracking water shield/invigorate or probably intergrated with WF3sec kinda look and feel.

thx
You have a suggestion in the main post: DisqoDice is quite good at it.
#5134SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hedin
Originally Posted by Audrix
Mod Talk:

I like the wf3sec mod its simple and easy to see. Bad part or not really bad but annoying is that you have to hard code your position values. I use x=-400, y=-100. Some one mention Avion but it doesnt seem to be updated for 2.3. I havent tried yet to see if it works but looking throu this thread it doesnt seem very popular. Also, I remember reading that wf3sec mod would show when invigorate proc but have yet to see it happen. Anyways, I wanted to know if anyone could sugest a mod for tracking water shield/invigorate or probably intergrated with WF3sec kinda look and feel.

thx
1. Update wf3sec from wowace.com
2. use /wf3sec command to tweak it
3. I moved all buffs to MeleeBuffs addon :-)
#5135SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Audrix
Originally Posted by Hedin
1. Update wf3sec from wowace.com
2. use /wf3sec command to tweak it
3. I moved all buffs to MeleeBuffs addon :-)

Cool thx Hed! Havent seen you post in awhile
#5136SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Opis the only reason you have 19% Hit right now is because you're wearing pre-raid, KZ and ZA stuff. Once you get past T4 raid content all the +Hit on gear vanishes until you start hitting the very end of T6 content. There's a big gap in the content where every upgrade you take drops your hit rating substantially.

[e] bleh didn't see that this had jumped a page already.
[e2] After looking at your gear a little bit more I'm quite skeptical of your 1100 DPS claims.
#5137SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tidalclyps
WindfuryWatcher works pretty well also. Should also be on wowace use /wfw unlock /wfw lock to move the indicator.
#5138SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nigil
might want to include [Bold Crimson Spinel] [Crimson Sun] [Inscribed Pyrestone] and maybe even [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] in the gem section, im sure people in BT will be able to recognise that these gems are better then the blue ones but you never know
#5139SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
You really think its necessary to tell someone that +10 strength is good when there's already a statement saying that +8 strength is good?
#5140SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nigil
not really im just saying more from an up to date standpoint sorry if i sounded critical
#5141SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by tzenes
shocks tend to make up 5-10% of your total dps.

So which is a bigger change... 22% of 10 or 3% of 90?

I'll give you a hint... I'm still enhance/resto
Not that Opis is correct, but the 'new' damage ratio from abilities, at least according to 1.5 weeks of recount data, seems to be 45% melee, 30% WF, 10% SS and 15% Shocks. Of course, when they finally add support to show Searing Totem, I would wager that a good 20-25% of our damage comes from spells now after the patch. Still, 3% to hit with spells and melee is more useful to the other 40-45% of our damage that still benefits with +hit gear :P Just to be safe though, I'll crunch some numbers at work and see what the story is. 17 million damage done in raid setting is probably a really good parse sample to work with!

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/23/07 at 12:02 PM.
#5142SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Opis
I assure you that I'm not exaggerating on the 1100 dps mark. I actually thought that it was a somewhat conservative rounding. It's certainly my very top-end only in the case where threat is not an issue, but good Rogues at my progression level definitely do more than 1100 even when threat is an issue. It was obviously tested in a raid, so I was somewhat buffed. I was working with my own totems, Trueshot Aura, Mark of the Wild, and Leader of the Pack. I didn't give these numbers to boast or argue with any of you.

And yes, 3% of 90% is much more than 22% of 10%, but white damage isn't 90% of your DPS. I was just curious if there was some balancing math on the subject since the advent of 2.3. I'd always assumed that once you approached the hit cap at around 20% or somewhat less, hit percentage started to become less responsible for Windfury procs, thus reducing its straight DPS gain. At that point, I wanted to test the elemental/enhancement build, but I'm honestly too lazy to try the math to support my claim. That's why I came here, to see if it'd already been done.

As far as damage per ability ratios with this build, so far, I'm seeing Melee at 35%, Windfury at 28%, and shocks at around 25%. These numbers will obviously fluctuate somewhat from encounter to encounter. I'll try to get a more concrete comparison with Recap and screenshots as the different specs soon.
#5143SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Opis
I assure you that I'm not exaggerating on the 1100 dps mark. I actually thought that it was a somewhat conservative rounding. It's certainly my very top-end only in the case where threat is not an issue, but good Rogues at my progression level definitely do more than 1100 even when threat is an issue. It was obviously tested in a raid, so I was somewhat buffed. I was working with my own totems, Trueshot Aura, Mark of the Wild, and Leader of the Pack. I didn't give these numbers to boast or argue with any of you.

And yes, 3% of 90% is much more than 22% of 10%, but white damage isn't 90% of your DPS. I was just curious if there was some balancing math on the subject since the advent of 2.3. I'd always assumed that once you approached the hit cap at around 20% or somewhat less, hit percentage started to become less responsible for Windfury procs, thus reducing its straight DPS gain. At that point, I wanted to test the elemental/enhancement build, but I'm honestly too lazy to try the math to support my claim. That's why I came here, to see if it'd already been done.

As far as damage per ability ratios with this build, so far, I'm seeing Melee at 35%, Windfury at 28%, and shocks at around 25%. These numbers will obviously fluctuate somewhat from encounter to encounter. I'll try to get a more concrete comparison with Recap and screenshots as the different specs soon.

WWS please. I doubt I could do 1100 dps with your gear :/.
#5144SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
There are still fights where I don't hit 1100 and I'm two tiers of progression above you.
#5145SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
Well it depends, even on a full boss fight I noticed our dps can vary a lot. Last time we did magtheridon, I was with the other enhance chaman of my guild (no rogue in raid this day). We have a similar stuff (T4 level + a few T5-level pieces) and we were in the same group. He did a solid 1090 dps while I did only 930 dps. After checking recount, it turned out that he had unusually few dodges (around 2%) over all his attacks, while I had a bit more than normal (~6.5%). This, and other few imbalances made the difference in our dps. But this is not what you may call a large parse, only ~10 minutes of fight so things like this may and will happen from time to time. So, you need very large parses to get a close number to your real dps (or use Yo's simulator which, even if not perfect, is very close to whathappens in a real raid).

Last edited by LazyJoe : 11/23/07 at 1:36 PM.
#5146SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
That's nothing new, everyone in this thread (or most of us) realise our DPS may vary a lot. That doesn't take away with his tier of level that 1100 dps is unusually high.
#5147SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Opis
Is my gear really that awful? I realize that I'm not at Mount Hyjal yet, but my findings are somewhat incongruent with yours. I don't have a current WWS log since 2.3, but I have one prior, from Gruul's. My gear wasn't quite as good as it is now, but I was over 900 dps even then. (I don't know the public link to it, so I took a picture. I'll replace it with a link once the guy who pays for ours provides us with a link that won't get him banned for my posting.)

WWS

(For the record, I was 0/42/19 at the time. I only posted this for reference.)
#5148SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Alright, I'm actually IN MH/BT gear and I do pull about 1050 dps in most raid settings, averaging around 2800 AP when fully raid buffed. As I mentioned before, the damage breakdown has changed in patch 2.3. Where it was once ~95% of damage came from White/WF/SS damage, its now approximately like this:

45% White
30% Windfury
10% Stormstrike
15% Shocks (Any type)

This is taken from my own recount parse of 17 million damage over the last 1.5 weeks in Boss Mobs/Trash circumstances while doing MH/BT, with a dash of ZA thrown in there.

If, like me, you average around 1050 DPS raid buffed with Natures Guidance, your DPS breakdown is as follows:

472.5 White
315 Windfury
105 Storm Strike
157.5 Shocks (any)

And now for some comparison numbers that match my experience. Now as I said, I roughly average 2800 AP raid buffed sustained during fights, giving me on average 840 Spell damage, or 352.8 damage on my Earth Shocks. This means that on average, I hit for around 1200 damage (with SS) every time I cast Earth Shock. With a 14% chance to miss with my spell, I effectively do 1032 damage on each cast (ignoring crits) and at a 6 second cooldown, and taking into account the .25 second lag, that means my Earth Shock does 165.12 DPS, or very roughly in line with the numbers stated above.

Now lets assume I switch my talents to elemental abilities, leaving out the mana cost reduction one as its very unimportant. I lose 3% to hit with spells and melee, but since I am still hit capped for yellow damage, my new damage breakdown would be:

~458.325 White (14.175 DPS loss)
315 Windfury
105 Storm Strike

Now lets take this same 1200 damage Earth Shock. I do 5% more damage, or 1260, but I am resisted 3% more (1045) and cast 1 second faster (5.25) giving me 199.2 DPS. 199.2 - 157.5 = 41.7 DPS gain

41.7 - 14.175 = 27.525 DPS gain overall, or roughly 2.6% increase to overall damage. Clearly this means that a HIGH END shaman that wishes to maximize his damage would want to go elemental instead of Resto.

It should be noted that this damage does NOT include totem damage. My searing totem alone does about 250 damage per hit in the raid: 250 / 1.5 = 166.67 DPS. With 15% more damage to totems, thats 191.6705 DPS, for an additional gain of 25 DPS. This is another ~2.5% DPS gain, bringing the total to a 5% dps gain overall. My 1050 average raid dps would now be 1103.55 or ~1100 on average.

Feel free to check my math, but from the looks of it, I'm going to respec tonight to an elemental/enhancement build :P

Edit: I would like to add again that I have fairly good gear, and that this entire setup hinges on how much AP - Spell Damage you actually gain. I would assume that the switchover from Enhance/Resto to Enhance/Elemental occurs at ROUGHLY the 2200 AP raid buffed average that this guide tells the new Shamans to try to gain. Perhaps we should make a note of this?

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/23/07 at 2:28 PM.
#5149SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
How the hell does a shaman get a DPS time of 96% on Gruul?

How does a mob with 3.4M health die at 2.7M?

And where's your second tank?
#5150SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Opis
From what I understand, Toots, merging WWS reports sometimes causes players to be lost, along with their damage. I was actually third in damage out. There was a Rogue, Daes, ahead of me. However, the DPS and damage out reports should be accurate for the players remaining.
#5151SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Opis
From what I understand, Toots, merging WWS reports sometimes causes players to be lost, along with their damage. I was actually third in damage out. There was a Rogue, Daes, ahead of me. However, the DPS and damage out reports should be accurate for the players remaining.
#5152SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Harem
Originally Posted by Opis
Is my gear really that awful? I realize that I'm not at Mount Hyjal yet, but my findings are somewhat incongruent with yours. I don't have a current WWS log since 2.3, but I have one prior, from Gruul's. My gear wasn't quite as good as it is now, but I was over 900 dps even then. (I don't know the public link to it, so I took a picture. I'll replace it with a link once the guy who pays for ours provides us with a link that won't get him banned for my posting.)

WWS

(For the record, I was 0/42/19 at the time. I only posted this for reference.)
Gruul has 3.4 million health. That's a bad parse.

edit: I appear to be repeating what has already been said.

Last edited by Harem : 11/23/07 at 4:33 PM.
#5153SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0aroma
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
How the hell does a shaman get a DPS time of 96% on Gruul?

How does a mob with 3.4M health die at 2.7M?

And where's your second tank?
And where are the missing 6 people?
#5154SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Beowulf: I ran some numbers too, and it looked like I could be doing more damage if I re-rolled elemental/enh.

Ignoring sketchy WWS procs or comparisons of raw data, let's boil down the premise here: We all know that the first 9% of to-hit is critical to hit capping yellow damage. We can get this from talents. However, there is no law saying that this 9% HAS to come from talents. If your gear has more than 48 hit rating on it, you can drop Nature's Guidance and still be hit-capped for yellow damage.

Question remains, is it worthwhile to do so?

Resto vs Elemental
1.03 white + yellow + 1.03 shock
vs.
white + yellow + 1.2 (reverb) * 1.05 (concussion) * shock

1.03 white + 1.03 shock
vs.
white + 1.26 shock

Let's take white & shock percentages of 45% and 15% with a resto spec. Theoretical fight of 100k damage. We have 45k and 15k. Untalented, these would be 43.7k and 14.6k, a decrease of 1.7k. Without NG, the fight would have been 98.3k total damage, meaning resto added 1.72%. Now consider elemental -- shock damage goes up to 18.3k, an increase of 3.7k to 102k total damage. Elemental added 3.76%. Elemental wins. The difference, in this example, is about 2.04%.

Turns out you need to have a ratio of untalented white damage to untalented shock damage of greater than than 7:1 for resto to out dps elemental. There are some fights where this is possible (due to silence effects, need to save shocks for interrupts) but not many.

(For extra credit, compare 1.03 * fire totems vs 1.15 * fire totems)

I won't be re-speccing: I don't want to give up 40min reincarnate, .5s faster heals OR bigger totem radius for a 2% damage increase. Sure my raid doesn't either. If these aren't issues in your raid style, by all means respec. It looks promising.

Quick recap on the assumptions made here: yellow damage hit capped from gear, 0s shock/SS lag, no shocks or SS lost to the GCD, lag between WF procs from decreased hit not appreciable. If any of these assumptions are false, the playing field changes to Resto's favor.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/23/07 at 5:23 PM.
#5155SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Toots, as I showed, when you factor in the totem damage, your actually getting a 5% increase in overall damage. The only change you give up is the loss of the 10 yard extra range on your totem, the 25% mana reduction for totems is a non issue with the new Elemental Focus talent trivializing our mana consumption on shocks. As it is, I could stop using healing stream and start using the mana totem and make up the entire difference with minimal impact to my group.

Now the only question that remains is this: is 5% more damage worth it to you to give up an extra 10 yards on your totems?

On most fights, the bosses do not move very much, if at all, at least from my experience on the first 6 bosses of BT and all the bosses of MH. The totem radius is therefor a non-issue entirely. And who uses our long heal in more than 1% of all our dps situations? If you need to do an 'oh shit' heal, you use LHW, presumably because you have the proc up from your t5 bonus anyway. I currently dont even have the .5 seconds faster casting time on Healing Wave: I cant think of ANY wipe that would have been saved if I had it.

I would really like to hear some more from the other more established posters here. It seems to me that with the changes in 2.3, the odds are HEAVILY in favor of elemental/enhancement once you get above 2200 AP on average raid buffed.

Edit: This is the build I am thinking of switching too tonight: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
#5156SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf
25% mana reduction for totems is a non issue
If you don't totem twist. Which, despite popular belief, is still incredibly viable and still isn't corrected after months of being acknowledged.

Originally Posted by Beowolf
Now the only question that remains is this: is 5% more damage worth it to you to give up an extra 10 yards on your totems?

On most fights, the bosses do not move very much, if at all, at least from my experience on the first 6 bosses of BT and all the bosses of MH. The totem radius is therefor a non-issue entirely. And who uses our long heal in more than 1% of all our dps situations? If you need to do an 'oh shit' heal, you use LHW, presumably because you have the proc up from your t5 bonus anyway. I currently dont even have the .5 seconds faster casting time on Healing Wave: I cant think of ANY wipe that would have been saved if I had it.
I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because people are completely oblivious to how totem range impacts the class. Assuming you are all lazy and defeatists about twisting any fight that involves mobility is going to be a hindrance for your WF totem. 4/5 in Hyjal and 4/9 in BT are fights that require high mobility, and the likelihood of being outside of melee range for <10 seconds is rather high. Your group will miss WF pulses and lose the buff for <5 seconds rather frequently; because, remember, an untalented WF totem has the range of a shock.

.5 sec off of healing wave isn't anything spectacular, I use it on Azgalor when my pot/healthstone/bandage are on cooldown and getting the bigger heal off quicker is more important. Otherwise, I'd agree, it isn't great but it's T1, what do you eckspect.

I really fail to see how this argument is still happening. Playstyles differ from person to person, and nobody is going to be won over save for random people that filter over through the WoW forums. DPS vs Utility, friends.
#5157SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
I prefer having 2 points in healing focus as well, before 2.3 I used to have 5/5. It's just annoying to get interruption on heals. I know I'm not supposed to rely on my own heals but again it's about different playstyles. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not playing an enhancement healer shaman, I just value 2 points on healing focus more than +2% shock damage or -10% totem cost.

And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.

Rava: use alt-120
#5158SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Opis
Possibly, Nemaa, but seeing as how our spell damage now scales with our AP from gear and buffs, that may very well be a long way down the road.
#5159SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
rava
Originally Posted by Opis
Possibly, Nemaa, but seeing as how our spell damage now scales with our AP from gear and buffs, that may very well be a long way down the road.
Your other stats are going to scale much faster than your spell damage. In my raiding gear I have 400 more attack power than you, which is 120 spell damage, or 51.432 damage ES and 80.4 damage on FS. From pre kara to nearly ideal gear outside of a ring and trinket slot I have gained 10.2864 dps on ES and 16.08 dps on FS with reverb. On the other hand, I have gained 10% crit, 37 haste, 300 armor penetration, 400 attack power, 1 expertise, and lost nearly 100 hit rating. These other gains are going to vastly out scale the 10-16 dps that I have gained from 120 spell damage with my 400 additional attack power.

My armory is showing me in T6 from my 3v3 enhancement endeavor, so armory comparisons aren't going to work too well with the gear it's showing me with.

Last edited by rava : 11/23/07 at 7:49 PM. Reason: armory sucks
#5160SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
@Opis : Which in the end you aren't providing any proof of this measure.

2.6% increase in dps VS Versality.

Most Shamans will go with versality seeing that we aren't a dps class at the end but a support class.

Yes our dps is important but is it so important that you must endanger the buff durations on your group for a bit more EPEEN ?
#5161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grammy
While looking at the math regarding the Stonebreaker's Totem, it looked like it hadn't been taken into account that the increase in AP per proc would affect the next shock's spell damage (if you are casting shock every [untalented] cooldown). I have to say I'm ignorant of the spell damage coefficient of shock spells, but 110AP = 33 spell damage, even though only one shock spell could get the bonus spell damage per proc-- this probably would not affect the math in the post greatly, since you would have to be shocking every cooldown for a shock spell to get benefit from the proc... but is it worth taking this other bonus into consideration making Stonebreaker's Totem an even clearer choice for best relic slot item; i.e. if I always make sure to shock after a proc, is the uptime needed to break even with Totem of the Astral Winds even lower?
#5162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ChaguraED
+damage coeffiecent

Grammy,

You have to recall that Shocks only get 42% of +damage added to them (they are treated as 1.5 seconds for coefficient purposes). Thus, the next shock would only receive about 14 damage.

It may not be that large of a tipping point.
#5163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava
If you don't totem twist. Which, despite popular belief, is still incredibly viable and still isn't corrected after months of being acknowledged.
They already announced that they are going to 'fix' totem twisting. As soon as that happened, I cut my melee group cold on this option, with our guild leaders blessings. Hell, several prominent posters on this thread also said they stopped Totem Twisting. Why? Because its a CRUTCH. In all honesty, you cant even debate this point because its going to be fixed, most likely when patch 2.4 comes out (new combat window and mechanics).

And even if you continue to totem twist, exactly how much mana do you save? If I recall, its something like 100 mana every 10-12 seconds. I can do some boss fights without ever even using SR, and I highly doubt your mana consumption is enough to warrant this. Drop a mana spring totem and make up the difference. End of discussion from my perspective.

Originally Posted by rava
I'm going to be a bit of a dick here because people are completely oblivious to how totem range impacts the class. Assuming you are all lazy and defeatists about twisting any fight that involves mobility is going to be a hindrance for your WF totem. 4/5 in Hyjal and 4/9 in BT are fights that require high mobility, and the likelihood of being outside of melee range for <10 seconds is rather high. Your group will miss WF pulses and lose the buff for <5 seconds rather frequently; because, remember, an untalented WF totem has the range of a shock.
This is a completely back asswards way of looking at the totem range. If the melee needs to move far enough to where they are 20 yards away from your totems (which should be right next to a boss anyway) then they fuking aren't doing any kind of melee DPS at the time anyway. 40% enhancement of 0 melee dps is still 0 melee dps.

Originally Posted by rava
.5 sec off of healing wave isn't anything spectacular, I use it on Azgalor when my pot/healthstone/bandage are on cooldown and getting the bigger heal off quicker is more important. Otherwise, I'd agree, it isn't great but it's T1, what do you eckspect.
No disagreements here. As I said, I use it on fewer than 1% of all fight time in a given week :P

Originally Posted by rava
I really fail to see how this argument is still happening. Playstyles differ from person to person, and nobody is going to be won over save for random people that filter over through the WoW forums. DPS vs Utility, friends.
Except I didn't just 'filter over through the WoW forums'. I mathematically established just how much more damage you will do with elemental talents instead of restoration talents. A 5%+ difference in DPS for anyone who is in MH/BT is a very serious consideration. And as you said, play styles differ from person to person, so why then do you think we should only tell the 'filtered shamans' that one spec is better because you happen to be the one who prefers it? Thats hardly a choice at all, more like bludgeoning a spec down their throats.

The only REAL argument in this discussion is how often do you find yourselves moving out of range of totems during boss fights. So lets make a list of high end (T6) moving encounters:

MH:

Winterchill*
Az'Galor*

BT:

Supremus*
RoS (?)
Illidan Council (?)
Illidan (?)

I put a question mark up because I havent done those fights and don't know :P

Looking at this list, on at least THREE of those fights* when the melee moves (and usually not the boss), they are out of range of dpsing anyway and don't receive any benefit from totems regardless. Your enhanced totem range means nothing in these cases. Now I'm not trying to be a dick either, but I think your entire mentality in regards to raid encounters is stuck in the SSC/TK pre-2.3 patch mode, and your dismissing this option out right without examining the facts.

What say you?

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/23/07 at 8:57 PM.
#5164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Nemaa
And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.
Very rarely is this ever the case. Even the best geared shamans will only be pulling around 1200 DPS on the majority of boss fights. Anyone who tells you they consistently do these kinds of DPS numbers is either pulling your leg, or failing to mention its consistently only on Teron Gorefiend. They might even be including their FIRE TOTEMS in their DPS numbers! Heck, I myself do around 1200-1250 on Teron Gorefiend, but I didn't mention that for my calculations :P But we should keep in mind that those kind of DPS numbers are generally gained by shamans with an extreme amount of AP, such as ones who only use the orange/purple gems to get a meta gem bonus and put in str gems in the rest regardless of socket bonuses. These same shamans will be getting 30% of that extra AP in spell damage anyway, so things scale quite nicely!

On an unrelated note, I for one chose the trade skills that give me the 'edge' over other melees: I have 380 JCing and 375 enchanting. I also pick up the 10 ap crystals from the noob Draenei quest and Scrolls of Str V, seeing how they stack with elixirs and food :P
#5165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
Both specs have positives and negatives: I did a whole MH/BT run last week 2/45/14 and this week I am gonna to a whole MH/BT run 16/45/00, I will look at my parses on WWS and decide which is best for the raid and check feedback on totem ranges. Play style isn't that different to be honest in my opinion.

Running sims as I have found is great it gives indicative values for 'fluffy bunny land' and they are extremely useful; however, translation to the real game world of WoW is what makes this game interesting.

I like 2.3 its created a number of different things to try, so go try it I say. Its not as simple as right and wrong, better or worst its about what works for you and your role in the raid.
#5166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf
They already announced that they are going to 'fix' totem twisting. As soon as that happened, I cut my melee group cold on this option, with our guild leaders blessings. Hell, several prominent posters on this thread also said they stopped Totem Twisting. Why? Because its a CRUTCH. In all honesty, you cant even debate this point because its going to be fixed, most likely when patch 2.4 comes out (new combat window and mechanics).

And even if you continue to totem twist, exactly how much mana do you save? If I recall, its something like 100 mana every 10-12 seconds. I can do some boss fights without ever even using SR, and I highly doubt your mana consumption is enough to warrant this. Drop a mana spring totem and make up the difference. End of discussion from my perspective.



This is a completely back asswards way of looking at the totem range. If the melee needs to move far enough to where they are 20 yards away from your totems (which should be right next to a boss anyway) then they fuking aren't doing any kind of melee DPS at the time anyway. 40% enhancement of 0 melee dps is still 0 melee dps.



No disagreements here. As I said, I use it on fewer than 1% of all fight time in a given week :P



Except I didn't just 'filter over through the WoW forums'. I mathematically established just how much more damage you will do with elemental talents instead of restoration talents. A 5%+ difference in DPS for anyone who is in MH/BT is a very serious consideration. And as you said, play styles differ from person to person, so why then do you think we should only tell the 'filtered shamans' that one spec is better because you happen to be the one who prefers it? Thats hardly a choice at all, more like bludgeoning a spec down their throats.

The only REAL argument in this discussion is how often do you find yourselves moving out of range of totems during boss fights. So lets make a list of high end (T6) moving encounters:

MH:

Winterchill*
Az'Galor*

BT:

Supremus*
RoS (?)
Illidan Council (?)
Illidan (?)

I put a question mark up because I havent done those fights and don't know :P

Looking at this list, on at least THREE of those fights* when the melee moves (and usually not the boss), they are out of range of dpsing anyway and don't receive any benefit from totems regardless. Your enhanced totem range means nothing in these cases. Now I'm not trying to be a dick either, but I think your entire mentality in regards to raid encounters is stuck in the SSC/TK pre-2.3 patch mode, and your dismissing this option out right without examining the facts.

What say you?
If you really want to play this game, I'll bite. Eyonix posted on twisting well over a month ago, nothing on new PTR to stop it, and 2.4 ptr is at least a week off, the patch itself another month after that. At least a full two months after the announcement it *might* be fixed. As far as the crutch statement, I guess I hit a nerve there? I did a quick search for crutch and nobody has mentioned that terminology, and from what I remember it was mostly relieved people because they did not like twisting and the position that it left them in. I'll argue it until it's corrected because it is an incredibly powerful tool.

118/10, 41/60, 84/120 = 66/5 gained from totemic focus, add in shocks, stormstrike, and a 6200 mana pool then you're looking at an empty bar of mana that still relies heavily on SR.

How is it a backwards way of looking at totem range? It's a unique perspective that is often ignored, the application of windfury itself. I thought I was descriptive enough in my first explanation, but I suppose that I wasn't. When you dodge abilities with large range, ie Death and Decay, Infernals on melee, Rain of Fire, running back in from Airburst, attacking Supremus in kite phase(not advised unless you can eat a 10k hit), eating Bloodboils, Fatal Attraction, dodging consecrates, flamestrikes, and blizzards, running in/out with parasite, redoing totems during flames phase, and other random aspects of Illidan you run the risk of outranging the buff at a bad time resulting in completely missing it for a pulse.

Stuck in the SSC/TK era? Are you trying to troll me?

You must be joking about the 1200 dps comment, I haven't used consumables in two months and my last WWS has Hyjal boss DPS at ~1500 without fire totems and shocks making up ~8% of my damage. My last Gorefiend was 1650 without consumables, battle shout, or blood frenzy. /shrug Leatherworking is a far better option than JC/Enchanting will ever be, especially after the buff to drums. I look for adding the edge to my raid, not myself.

I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
#5167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Increased totem range is a convenience to the shaman, not the group. It means that I can drop my totems in a central location and they're in the correct spot for every portion of an encounter. This means on Hyjal Trash I can drop them and cover the AoE packs as well as the CCd Necros as the melee group moves from Necros to Aboms/Ghouls/Spiders. On BT trash, same thing. On Akama it means that I can drop my totems in the center of the platform and the cover the entire platform as we move around it. Same thing on Hydross, Vashj, Kael, etc etc. It saves me the hassle of realizing that we've moved away from the totems and having to redrop.
#5168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
beetlejuice
I just want to mention, that even when you maximize the damage output of your shocks with talents from elemental tree, it won't really affect your damage output alot, in overall raid fights.
Reasons for this are

Fights where you are trigger happy are really really few. If there was a way to see in wwstats how often you kept a shock rotation up while dpsing you would see that shock rotation is really much less than the time you were actualy dpsing. Shocks are not covered by the threat reduction enhancement talent, its the first thing you stop doing if you are going near threat cap, along stormstrike. (ie bloodboil)

And for these Elemental talents you will lose :

1. 30 yard totems. (Fear will outrange tremor totem, oops cancel that, tremor is always 30yard totem). Grounding totem won't cover you that much in situations where you are running towards a target. Your enhancement buffing totems (strength , windfury, grace of air ) wont cover a big space and when your group is splited for raid reasons some might not get the benefits from them.

2. Nature's Guidance. 3% Hit rating for spells!! and melee hits. Oh yes, did you forget that? Nature's guidance gives you 3% hit in spells too, i am reaaally so curious to see how many shocks will get resisted because you won't have this talent anymore. Don't think this is minimal, i don't want to be you when you will get 2 earthshocks resisted in a row, when you are at illidari council and trying to interrupt divine wraths or when you happen to be the only melee against a necromancer in trash packs of Mt Hyjal :/. I can't say if 3% spell hit rating is more prefered from 5% extra damage in shocks, but considering that earthshocks are used in raids for interrupt purposes too, you need to have that 3% spell hit rating.

Becoming dps machine is one thing, remembering the reason raids created a spot for enhancement shamans is another .

Last edited by beetlejuice : 11/23/07 at 10:35 PM.
#5169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Tremor Totem is, and has always been, 30 yard without talents.
#5170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
I don't want to get involved in the Ele vs Resto discussion before I've had an indepth look at it, but are the "best geared Enhancement Shaman" really only getting an average of 1200 dps? I was getting that in SSC while still using two pieces of T4.

Also: why wouldn't you include fire totem damage? The only reason I don't is because of technical problems with WWS.
#5171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by panny
I don't want to get involved in the Ele vs Resto discussion before I've had an indepth look at it, but are the "best geared Enhancement Shaman" really only getting an average of 1200 dps? I was getting that in SSC while still using two pieces of T4.

Also: why wouldn't you include fire totem damage? The only reason I don't is because of technical problems with WWS.
I'm getting from 1000 to 1500+ DPS depending on the boss fight. Really variable depending on fight circumstances, group composition and debuff status.
#5172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0T.K.
Help with helms

Some advices in here, please:

T6 helm [Skyshatter Cover] sums 229,25 AEP pts with my ratings. Not adding the meta

[Grimgrin Faceguard] sums 256,40 AEP pts using normal blue gems.

My doubt is, would the meta gem surpass that dif between them and, if not, would be worth to use epic gems on the ZA helm as i would only trade it with [Forest Prowler's Helm] or later Cursed Vision itself?

We currently at RoS at BT and already downed Archimonde at Hyjal, but i couldn't get T5 as it never dropped and so i'm still stuck with T4 helm.
#5173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Nemaa
And what about high-end gear where one shaman can have a sustained 1500-1600 DPS? Beowolf, your calculations are based on the 1050 DPS. With better gear you get higher percentage of melee damage, that means Nature's Guidance worth more. There should be a point where 3% melee/spell hit gets better than +22% shock damage and +15% fire totems damage.
Ay, there is -- and if you'd read my post, you'd have seen it.

Natures Guidance = Concussion + Reverberation
1.03 white + 1.03 shock = white + 1.26 shock
1.03 white - white = 1.26 shock - 1.03 shock
.03 white = .23 shock
white = 7.7 shock

When your percentage of damage from white melee is more than 7.7 times that of shocks, nature's guidance will provide more overall damage than concussion and reverberation.

This should be very hard to achieve unless you aren't using MQ or stack the hell out of hit rating and crit. (It's actually higher because I am too lazy to solve for the third variable of totem damage, though I am not so lazy that I don't drop them).

But again -- are we talking raid utility or max dps? If it's max dps, drop the hell out of enhanced weapon totems and the whole resto tree and push hard into the elemental tree. If it's raid utility, sigh at the loss of 2-5% potential damage and consider the 3 points in NG a consolation for being nice to your raid and improving your totem range.

Oh, and don't knock the .5s big heal reduction. Will it stop a wipe? Maybe not -- though I'm able to get two big heals off after a Ground Slam before getting Stoned, something I doubt I could without the extra 1s of lag time, and that has kept up our rogue who just *loves* to hang out in cave ins.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/24/07 at 1:50 AM.
#5174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava
If you really want to play this game, I'll bite. Eyonix posted on twisting well over a month ago, nothing on new PTR to stop it, and 2.4 ptr is at least a week off, the patch itself another month after that. At least a full two months after the announcement it *might* be fixed. As far as the crutch statement, I guess I hit a nerve there? I did a quick search for crutch and nobody has mentioned that terminology, and from what I remember it was mostly relieved people because they did not like twisting and the position that it left them in. I'll argue it until it's corrected because it is an incredibly powerful tool.

118/10, 41/60, 84/120 = 66/5 gained from totemic focus, add in shocks, stormstrike, and a 6200 mana pool then you're looking at an empty bar of mana that still relies heavily on SR.

How is it a backwards way of looking at totem range? It's a unique perspective that is often ignored, the application of windfury itself. I thought I was descriptive enough in my first explanation, but I suppose that I wasn't. When you dodge abilities with large range, ie Death and Decay, Infernals on melee, Rain of Fire, running back in from Airburst, attacking Supremus in kite phase(not advised unless you can eat a 10k hit), eating Bloodboils, Fatal Attraction, dodging consecrates, flamestrikes, and blizzards, running in/out with parasite, redoing totems during flames phase, and other random aspects of Illidan you run the risk of outranging the buff at a bad time resulting in completely missing it for a pulse.

Stuck in the SSC/TK era? Are you trying to troll me?

You must be joking about the 1200 dps comment, I haven't used consumables in two months and my last WWS has Hyjal boss DPS at ~1500 without fire totems and shocks making up ~8% of my damage. My last Gorefiend was 1650 without consumables, battle shout, or blood frenzy. /shrug Leatherworking is a far better option than JC/Enchanting will ever be, especially after the buff to drums. I look for adding the edge to my raid, not myself.

I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
Link the parse or shut up.
#5175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
I'm getting from 1000 to 1500+ DPS depending on the boss fight. Really variable depending on fight circumstances, group composition and debuff status.
I guess it depends on if you are fighting a mob that is constantly casting spells or a mob that does mostly melee attacks. But no, I've never seen a 1500 DPS situation outside of Teron Gorefiend. Show me your AP/Crit/Hit that gives you 1500 DPS on Yo!s simulator, please.
#5176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Resto subspec:
3% to ~45% of damage and 86/83 - 1 = 3.6% to ~15% of damage ==> 1.35%+0.542% = 1.89% damage increase
30 yard totems
40 minute ankh or -25% mana cost on totems

Elemental subspec
1/6*105%*15% of damage = 2.625% damage increase
5 sec CD on earth/frost shock (some utility)
requires use of more GCDs -- damage increase only holds true if you are shocking perfectly

Elemental gives you a 102.625/101.89 - 1 = 0.72% maximum theoretical DPS increase under optimal circumstances. (In other words, if you're 1500 DPS as resto, you'd be 1511 DPS as elemental with perfect play.) You gain some PvP utility of being able to shock more frequently, but lose the PvE utility offered by increased totem range. You will be on GCD more often and I doubt that anyone will see an actual damage increase moving to elemental from restoration, period. It requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting. I do feel that you can now make a case for elemental as a viable alternative, but it's not going to be a DPS improvement -- it's a change of pace, at best.
#5177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Restoration vs. Elemental: The Final Showdown

Here's my attempt at a mathematical comparison between the two specs dps-wise. I will be basing all of the following math off of my own statistics.

Not counting things like Improved Hunter's Mark or Expose Weakness, my raid buffed attack power is about 3035. So Mental Quickness is giving me about +910 spell damage. As far as I know Flame Shock is still benefiting from about 61% of our spell damage, Earth Shock about 43%, and each tick of Searing Totem about 17%. If these numbers are incorrect, please let me know. I'll also be using Yo's! simulator to determine the amount of melee dps I would lose by not having Nature's Guidance. Hopefully it is accurate.

Enhancement/Restoration: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Flame Shock
797 base damage.
+555 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
-14% from resists.

Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.86 = 1586~ damage.

Earth Shock
675 base damage.
+391 damage from Mental Quickness.
+5% from Misery.
+20% from Stormstrike.
-14% from resists.

Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*0.86 = 1155~ damage.

Searing Totem
58 base damage per tick.
+155 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
-17% from resists.

Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*0.83 = 241~ damage every 2.5 seconds.

Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Restoration spec: 325~ DPS.

---

Enhancement/Elemental: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Flame Shock
797 base damage.
+555 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
+5% from Concussion.
-17% from resists.

Total: 797+555*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.05*0.83 = 1608~ damage.

Earth Shock
675 base damage.
+391 damage from Mental Quickness.
+5% from Misery.
+20% from Stormstrike.
+5% from Concussion.
-17% from resists.

Total: 675+391*1.05*1.20*1.05*0.83 = 1170~ damage.

Searing Totem
58 base damage per tick.
+155 damage from Mental Quickness.
+15% from Fire Vulnerability.
+13% from Curse of Elements.
+5% from Misery.
+15% from Call of Flame.
-17% from resists.

Total: 58+155*1.15*1.13*1.05*1.15*0.83 = 277~ damage every 2.5 seconds.

Total DPS from shocks/Searing Totem as Elemental spec: 389~ DPS.

---

Net differences between the two specs after factoring in the melee DPS gained from Nature's Guidance: Improved Healing Wave, Improved Reincarnation, Totemic Focus, and Totemic Mastery vs. Elemental Warding and 35~ DPS.

Other factors:

All of this math assumes the player is keeping Searing Totem up 100% of the time and shocking immediately on every cooldown. Not meeting these conditions certainly favors the Restoration spec.

I did not account for crits. Considering our low crit rate, the fact that Flame Shock crits affect less than half of the spells total damage, and our lack of Elemental Fury, I don't think this changes the math in any major way. But feel free to figure that out on your own and prove me wrong.

Totemic Focus is a requirement for totem twisting on a lot of encounters, even after the patch. If you don't totem twist, then perhaps elemental spec is the correct choice for you. If you totem twist, restoration is the correct choice in my opinion.

Gear has a large affect on these numbers. My math based off of my own statistics can give you a decent idea of the differences between the two specs, but if you want to be hardcore, figure it out based off of your own statistics.
#5178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by rava
I'm not dismissing elemental, but the argument has been going on for pages now, and I see it as a pointless one. And, yes, I'd rather have random WoW Forumers see one spec as better than the other so I don't check the thread and see 5 new posts that say, "LOLLOOKATMYSPECIHAVEELEMENTALDEVASTATION".
Look, this is *the* theorycraft forum for enhancers of all stripes. Most people come here looking to maximize their DPS. Is Elemental a way to do that? Yes.

Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math.
#5179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob
You will be on GCD ... it requires you to be impossibly perfect in your play to see a DPS increase in a raid setting.
Sounds like a good argument against totem twisting, as well.

Anyhow, my point in raising these questions was to get a cogent set of the arguments AGAINST what is from a mathematical perspective justifiable.

It's kind of like the 2.6.2 changes to Water Shield. On paper, you're not gaining anything...but nobody in the real world is refreshing water shields exactly as they pop, there's too much other stuff to worry about.
#5180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Very rarely is this ever the case. Even the best geared shamans will only be pulling around 1200 DPS on the majority of boss fights. Anyone who tells you they consistently do these kinds of DPS numbers is either pulling your leg, or failing to mention its consistently only on Teron Gorefiend. They might even be including their FIRE TOTEMS in their DPS numbers! Heck, I myself do around 1200-1250 on Teron Gorefiend, but I didn't mention that for my calculations :P But we should keep in mind that those kind of DPS numbers are generally gained by shamans with an extreme amount of AP, such as ones who only use the orange/purple gems to get a meta gem bonus and put in str gems in the rest regardless of socket bonuses. These same shamans will be getting 30% of that extra AP in spell damage anyway, so things scale quite nicely!

On an unrelated note, I for one chose the trade skills that give me the 'edge' over other melees: I have 380 JCing and 375 enchanting. I also pick up the 10 ap crystals from the noob Draenei quest and Scrolls of Str V, seeing how they stack with elixirs and food :P
Firstly, I think you should both save the attitude for people asking about how much +hit rating they need. Elemental vs. Restoration is a viable debate after 2.3. How about we all play nice?

Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me:

WWS - Rage Winterchill
WWS - Anetheron
WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight)
WWS - Naj'entus
WWS - Teron Gorefiend

Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+.

Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 2:42 AM.
#5181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Look, this is *the* theorycraft forum for enhancers of all stripes. Most people come here looking to maximize their DPS. Is Elemental a way to do that? Yes.

Ignoring facts is a good way to ensure all arguments here go on for pages. I'd rather try to put this debate to rest (with, "yes, we checked, elemental is x% more dps but friggit, we're going resto because we love out raid") than have it re-introduced and re-dismissed over 20 pages of bad math.
Drop a Grace of Air totem while you're at it, because you know that your dps is more important than the raid's. I believe that since the idea was introduced it has all boiled down to playstyle and preference, and nothing has been accomplished except what was already known; the worse your gear the more damage shocks makeup and the more elemental subbing will play a part in your dps, and the better gear you have you will see diminished returns from elemental subbing due to non shock damage encompassing your shock damage.
#5182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava
Drop a Grace of Air totem while you're at it, because you know that your dps is more important than the raid's. I believe that since the idea was introduced it has all boiled down to playstyle and preference, and nothing has been accomplished except what was already known; the worse your gear the more damage shocks makeup and the more elemental subbing will play a part in your dps, and the better gear you have you will see diminished returns from elemental subbing due to non shock damage encompassing your shock damage.
No one said to not drop WF totem for your group. The point is that you think the extra 10 yards on your totems will increase your groups damage by more than you could increase your own damage by going a 16/45/0 build. As I pointed out, if the group has to move out of range of your totems, they aren't doing any DPS anyway so it really doesn't matter in 90%+ of the fights.
#5183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Firstly, I think you should both save the attitude for people asking about how much +hit rating they need. Elemental vs. Restoration is a viable debate after 2.3. How about we all play nice?

Secondly, you're wrong about these dps numbers. I've posted a bunch of WWS in this thread alone. I really don't want to come off as bragging at all because I'm not, but here's just a few WWS from half of this weeks Hyjal/BT clear without any Searing Totem damage attributed to me:

WWS - Rage Winterchill
WWS - Anetheron
WWS - Kaz'rogal (I'm usually 100-200 dps higher on this fight)
WWS - Naj'entus
WWS - Teron Gorefiend

Pre-2.3 through 104 total logged encounters in Hyjal/BT my average dps was 1342. Post patch with a DST and that number is higher. My current average through two weeks of 2.3 is 1448. Teron Gorefiend is not singlehandedly inflating these numbers. If I played better, this average DPS number could definitely reach 1500+.

Once again, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just trying to give examples.
WWS

That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up...

WWS

Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P

WWS

And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data?

Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P

Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P

Last edited by Beowolf : 11/24/07 at 4:41 AM.
#5184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Sounds like a good argument against totem twisting, as well.
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- including everyone else in the party might provide benefits equal to 10% or more of your DPS.

On the other hand, if you're trying to argue that GCDs are not problematic, you're completely ignoring that the theoretical DPS increase from going Elemental for 5 second shocks will greatly inhibit your ability to totem twist.

If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. Back-of-the-napkin math is more than adequate to show this. Trying to come up with a rotation for elemental with totem twisting requires the following:
0.0-WF
1.5-GoA
3.0-FS
4.5-SS
8.0-ES
9.5-WF
This should make it clear that if your latency plus reaction time is greater than 100ms, you will not achieve the theoretical gains that elemental offers. (Not to mention every minute you must refresh Searing, and every two minutes you must use SR, trinkets, and refresh SoE/Mana Spring, and probably pop a mana pot to keep up with the twisting+shock spam...)

I think that it's not hard to agree that the absolute best min-max way to go is totem twisting with a resto subspec. On the other hand, if you're like me, and only totem twist occasionally because you find it too hard to focus on your surroundings, maybe Elemental is worth considering... but for me, it's not, because that 0.7% DPS isn't worth it to lose things like imp ankh and imp totem range. I can honestly see speccing Elemental for PvP -- a reduced cooldown on Earth and Frost Shocks would be useful there -- but it's just not the best option for raiding.

Last edited by Rob : 11/24/07 at 4:44 AM.
#5185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Rob
Totem twisting has theoretical returns a lot higher than 0.7% of your DPS. If you're getting GoA that you wouldn't normally be, that right there is ~5% crit or ~3% more damage overall, and that's just for you -- not everyone else in the party. Going for 5 second shocks will further inhibit your ability to totem twist. If you want to min-max, the absolute best raid DPS is going to be resto spec with totem twisting. If you just want to play a more relaxed version of the game, I still suggest resto, since you don't have to be as worried about redropping totems... Elemental, in my opinion, only has a place in a PvP build.
Totem Twisting is getting fixed in a patch fairly soon. Do you really want to rely on an obvious bug that could disappear in the next patch?
#5186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Ahindwe
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P
Did you do the math? On the first parse, he was doing damage for 142 seconds. He did a total of 241,567 damage. 241,567 divided by 142 gives you 1701, which is exactly what WWS is displaying as his DPS.

I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results.

I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point.
#5187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Beowolf
WWS

That parse data doesn't add up. For instance, on Rage Winterchill, going by your damage alone, you DPSd for 142 seconds. Arkadu did more damage, but DPSed only 98% of the time, AND he did less DPS than you did. Whoever uploaded your stats obviously messed something up...

WWS

Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS. Why don't you post some Violation damage parses of your own. That will give us a MUCH more accurate reading of your damage :P

WWS

And look at that. You really only did 15 shocks the ENTIRE 3 minute fight? You could either do a lot more damage, or again the numbers are a bit quirky.... For instance, the fight took exactly 179 seconds by your damage to dps ratio, yet the actual parse is for only 2 minutes of data?
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.

Originally Posted by Beowolf
Edit: My own guild mates are telling me that those DPS figures are your maximum DPS, not sustained, which makes sense given that a warrior did 1500 dps on Teron and was present 100% of the time, yet was outdamaged by a lock doing only 1100 dps and who was present for the same time :P
Did you even think this through? Do you understand how high this number would be if what you were saying was correct?

Edit 2: I just got finished messing around with Yo!'s simulator. You would need something like 2800 AP unbuffed, 32% crit, 18% hit, 2% haste and 550 AP with BoK/Mark/BoM/LotP/TSA/BS/Drums/Haste/Elixir/Food and mongoose weapon enchant with 2 100.2 DPS weapons just to hit 1550 dps on a boss with 6200 armor. Would you care to explain how you can seemingly get 1800+ dps? :P
Do you understand that a fully debuffed boss has half that amount of armor or less in a raiding environment? Also, Yo's! simulator doesn't account for some things like multiple Bloodlusts, Expose Weakness, Improved Hunter's Mark etc.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 4:51 AM.
#5188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Ahindwe
Did you do the math? On the first parse, he was doing damage for 142 seconds. He did a total of 241,567 damage. 241,567 divided by 142 gives you 1701, which is exactly what WWS is displaying as his DPS.

I didn't check the other two, but I imagine you'll find similar results.

I don't have the answer for the small inconsistencies you're seeing, but I think you're just being stubborn at this point.
I assumed he was telling the truth and calculated the DPS time off of his numbers. Its everyone elses numbers that don't add up! For instance, going off of Retros damage, who DPSed the whole fight, it actually lasted 159 seconds. If he was present for 92% of that time, he would have dpsed for 146 seconds, while it only shows 142 or 90% DPS time. Now look at Arkadus, he was DPSing 98% of the fight for 1614 DPS. 98% of 159 seconds is 156 seconds, and that means he should have done ~251k, but he in fact did ~264k. Waaaaay to noisy for my liking.
#5189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Totem Twisting is getting fixed in a patch fairly soon. Do you really want to rely on an obvious bug that could disappear in the next patch?
No -- I haven't totem twisted since the patch, and I only twisted before when I was threat-capped and needed TA. But what does that have to do with anything? If we're answering the question "How can I get the absolute maximum raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and totem twist. If we're answering the question "What is the easiest way to do respectable raid DPS?" the answer is: spec Enhance/Resto and don't totem twist. Enhance/Elemental gives you more DPS than Enhance/Resto without totem twisting, but at the cost of increased complexity and decreased utility, when you could have just stayed Enhance/Resto and totem twisted if you didn't mind the extra complexity.
#5190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.
And if I only attacked when my SS cooldown was up, I am sure I could inflate my numbers a bit too. Still, things do not add up, but I am willing to let it slide. My guild does not use WWS anymore, so I generally rely on my violation numbers. I've always felt that DPS is damage done over the course of the entire fight, not just the times I'm actually damaging so my own 1050 DPS figure is probably lower than what I am doing by your standards~
#5191SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
I've edited my reply to you above. I'd also like to add that yes, I really only did shock 15 times on Teron. Imagine how high that dps number would be if I was a better player.
#5192SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf
No one said to not drop WF totem for your group. The point is that you think the extra 10 yards on your totems will increase your groups damage by more than you could increase your own damage by going a 16/45/0 build. As I pointed out, if the group has to move out of range of your totems, they aren't doing any DPS anyway so it really doesn't matter in 90%+ of the fights.
That isn't my argument. My argument is twisting will outdps elemental, and it will. If you want to throw it out because it might be fixed in a future patch then go for it. I find it odd that you are commenting on mobility fights when you haven't experienced three of the most movement intensive fights in the game.

The WWS are correct, click on Modrack's name; DPS time : 1mn (62 % of presence), DPS : 1510. Also, 326969/179=1826, accurate? Yes. Independently hosted WWS don't know how to show exact time, so it rounds to the nearest minute. Apparently he does hit that much harder.
#5193SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Sebudai
You don't understand how WWS works. Stop looking at Presence and start looking at DPS Time.

The reason Arkadu is dealing more damage than me while doing less DPS is because he's actually attacking the mob more than I am, and WWS accounts for this. For example on Rage Winterchill we move out of Death and Decay, I often take this opportunity to help top my group off, or give people instructions(I am leading the raid). Arkadu gains a little DPS time on the mob each time I do this. Me not doing this would not reduce my DPS in any way, in fact it would probably increase it. If you look at the Rage parse Arkadu has 100% DPS Time while I have 93%. That means that for 93% of my presence in the log I was actually dealing damage.

The DPS number WWS lists is the average DPS the player did over the period of time they were actually attacking the mob.



Did you even think this through? Do you understand how high this number would be if what you were saying was correct?



Do you understand that a fully debuffed boss has half that amount of armor or less in a raiding environment? Also, Yo's! simulator doesn't account for some things like multiple Bloodlusts, Expose Weakness, Improved Hunter's Mark etc.
So basically what you are telling me is that if I were to use your standards for DPS time, I am actually doing 25-30% more DPS than what my in game meter is telling me. Very interesting to know for future reference :P
#5194SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf
So basically what you are telling me is that if I were to use your standards for DPS time, I am actually doing 25-30% more DPS than what my in game meter is telling me. Very interesting to know for future reference :P
Teron DPS presence was 100%, and I don't understand how a comment about being present 93% of rage would equate to 25-30% more dps. You are missing these things on the sim, they are called armor debuffs. Sunder, Faerie Fire, Recklessness, ect make that value lower.
#5195SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava
That isn't my argument. My argument is twisting will outdps elemental, and it will. If you want to throw it out because it might be fixed in a future patch then go for it. I find it odd that you are commenting on mobility fights when you haven't experienced three of the most movement intensive fights in the game.

The WWS are correct, click on Modrack's name; DPS time : 1mn (62 % of presence), DPS : 1510. Also, 326969/179=1826, accurate? Yes. Independently hosted WWS don't know how to show exact time, so it rounds to the nearest minute. Apparently he does hit that much harder.
My argument is that when you are not exploiting game mechanics, Elemental will out damage Restoration. You really can't refute that with anything you have thrown out today!

As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc. Essentially free time to let your cooldowns refresh to give you that extra burst potential (WF/SS/Shocks). If I trimmed away all the non damage time crap that I do on a fight, I am sure I would come out with similar damage ratios that he has. He only has about 75 more AP and a tad more haste than I do presently!

Edit: I will try to get someone in my guild to run the numbers for Gorefiend tonight and compare notes.
#5196SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Do you realize you were just proven wrong about ten different ways and yet for some reason you're still acting like a condescending douchebag? I mean, do you want me to return the favor? Perhaps me and my guild are just better at dealing damage than you and your guild? Do you really want to get in a dick waving contest with me or something? You're basically trolling at this point, and these aren't the forums for that.

They're not "my" standards, they're WWS' standards, and they're perfectly reasonable and pretty much agreed upon by all of the people that actually know how WWS works. Clearly you're not one of those people since I just had to explain to you some of WWS' most basic functions. Where exactly did you pull that 25-30% number from anyway?

I could very easily not heal my group at all on Rage, or just neglect my raid leading duties and focus more on dealing maximum damage. My DPS would be exactly the same or higher. Not only are those DPS numbers accurate, but they could clearly be higher if I played better. You're just plain wrong about that 1200 DPS number. It's okay to be wrong.

You're completely exaggerating the dps I gain from the way WWS calculates it. It is very marginal at best. Hell, next clear I'll make sure I have 100% DPS Time on every encounter so my guilds parses can meet your demanding standards.

Also, could you give me an accurate armory link? It looks like your pvp spec now, but if you normally use most of that gear in pve, you are in fact quite a bit behind me gear-wise, which would account for some of the difference in DPS.

Last edited by Sebudai : 11/24/07 at 5:58 AM.
#5197SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Beowolf
My argument is that when you are not exploiting game mechanics, Elemental will out damage Restoration. You really can't refute that with anything you have thrown out today!

As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc. Essentially free time to let your cooldowns refresh to give you that extra burst potential (WF/SS/Shocks). If I trimmed away all the non damage time crap that I do on a fight, I am sure I would come out with similar damage ratios that he has. He only has about 75 more AP and a tad more haste than I do presently!

Edit: I will try to get someone in my guild to run the numbers for Gorefiend tonight and compare notes.
It isn't an exploit, WoW Forums -> Totem Twisting

Originally Posted by Eyonix
Okay, here's the situation. It's not an exploit, and no sorry, it's not really considered creative use of game mechanics either, based on what that term usually is intended to imply. You're free to take advantage of "totem twisting", but be aware -- we do plan to address it at some point in the future.
Later in the thread:

Originally Posted by Eyonix
We'd love to prevent "totem twisting" right now, but there are technical limitations that we must overcome first, combined with the fact that it's not a big deal.
I'll leave the WWS dwellings and gear comparisons alone because I am entirely too lazy to put any effort into it.
#5198SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
everwatch
First off I saw one argument comparing spec'ing Ele versus Totem Twisting. This has to be one of the stupidest arguments ever. Ele spec can totem twist. You're done. We have so little mana issues now you can still totem twist while being spec'd Ele. Drop that one. Sure resto gets a mana break, but Ele spec'd shaman can totem twist too.

Shock damage. I listed several WWS where Shocks at their low were 13% of my damage and at their high were 19% of my damage. Through my testing I have found shocks to be 16% of my total dmg on average. This is in part due to *MY* playstle since I've seen other shaman with only 10% of their dmg from shocks since 2.3 which really does boggle me, but hey. Whatever. So what this means is that Shock damage, depending on your gear, playstyle, preferences, latency, computer, skill, etc... is likely to range somewhere between 10-18% of your total damage done. I can tell you from personal experience that if you are sharp on your GCD timers that 16% is very achievable. It is not however a static number for everyone. It isn't 15% of your damage, or 10%, or 16%. The previous example of your white damage needing to 7 times greater than your shock damage is a more static and useful tool. Apply that to your personal Shock damage results will yield the correct assumption.

Resto vs Ele. As Malan said about Executioner vs Mongoose, I'd like to mimic him here. They are close enough to not truly require you to spec one way or the other. I have spec'd Resto and Ele both since 2.3 and found the differences to be minimal. It is a playstle preference. Do you like 5 second cooldown shocks for interrupts and dps with Ele Warding? Or do you like faster ankhs/heals and totem range improvements? Whatever floats your boat is the right answer. The dps overage is not enough to say any one spec trumps the versatility of the other.

As to totem ranges nerfing DPS. If you're a shaman worth your salt, then you know when a boss moves to drop a WF totem first, and to do so before the melee makes it into range of the boss. You also know that the WF pulse has a long enough duration to drop another totem near the melee so they don't lose it. Totem range is about "easy mode" or just being lazy about managing GCD's. *AND* if you do totem twist, then drop it because you're dropping totems left and right and can move them around easy. Your dps also knows to stay in range of the stupid totems. There are so few fights where the BOSS will move AWAY from the TOTEMS that totem range being an issue is BS. And if GCD is the issue - and you're worried about the raid dps like you say you are, then don't Shock/SS. Drop new totems. It's simple. *IF ANYTHING* reduced totem range nerfs *your* dps. Because if you're being a good raider, you're putting your totems out before Shocking/SS'ing.

I went Ele and I have noticed the range loss. It hurts. But it just means *I* have to work harder and manage my GCD's not only more often but more efficiently as well. And my melee boys have not once complained about even once being out of WF range. And I've asked.

As to potential Enhance DPS. I personally am a "weirdo shammy". I went full T5 instead of taking the best pieces that I could. Why? Because I dug the way the set looked. Simple. I nerfed my dps in order to look cool. Selfish? Sure. But then it's my game and I play it the way I want to. So speaking as such, I maintain anywhere between 900-1200 dps on average depending on the fight and what is required of me. Also as to how well the group is stacked in my favor. So knowing that, I think it's very reasonable to extrapolate that an "optimally geared shaman" could maintain on average 1200-1500 dps on average. Keep in mind that fights such as Shade/Akama/and a few others see my dps in a range of 1200-1500. I don't speak of max, I speak of averages.


You guys are usually very tight and facts roll out most of the time. Some newer posts have lead to some bickering. I hate seeing that. If you have some new data, back it with some WWS's or SS's. And if you're going to call out a long time respected poster, think about what you're saying and make sure you can back up what you say too.

Last edited by everwatch : 11/24/07 at 6:11 AM.
#5199SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tahirne
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Same here. Arkadu did less DPS, but out damaged you by 20k damage, and was present for only 1% longer on a 197 second fight, again based off your damage and DPS.
Arkadu hacks.
Seb, tell Hakle I say hello. Miss the guy.

Seb, your numbers really are impressive. Goodjob on all the fights.
I personally pull 1000-1100 DPS Depending on the encounter and raid setup.
Seeing 1600-1750 Is a very nice thing to look up to when gear improves.

Now as for the Elemental/Enhance Vs Enhancement/Resto, In my personal opinion I would believe 2/45/15 to be superior, mainly because the argument for Elemental/Enhance is overall more shock damage while those arguing for that tend to ignore the fact that your losing 3% spell hit from specing out of natures guidance as well.

Gaining 3% more shock Damage for the loss of 3% less spell/melee hit - No thanks.
#5200SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nuala
Wondering about fist weapons ...

Hello, I just read this post with great attention and I am sure it will help me gear myself up better.

But I ran a search and did not find any relevant information on fist weapons.

I currently run on 2 Runic Hammers and plan to take a gladiator weapon, with honor points or arena points I don't know yet. I guess I need to choose between better gear and worse weapon or better weapon and lower gear.

Three weapons are available, Mace Axe or Fist Weapon. In the first post, you tend to encourage people to take an Axe if they are Orcs or a Mace, but you do not speak of Fist Weapons.

Tell me if I am wrong but there is no difference in stats or DPS on those three weapons, The only difference I see is that the Gladiator Right Ripper is not as regular a weapon, it has a bigger top damage number and a smaller lower damage number. The damage window is larger wich in turn will lead to higher crits and higher WF procs but also the worse crits and the worse WF procs.

This could be an asset in pvp because high damage is more difficult to heal through (though resilience has seen to that) but you could also end up with very low damage if you are unlucky.
This is a drawback in pve because it adds to the random DPS a Shaman tends to do while he relies on procs.

I am sure I am missing something on fist weapons and why not use them, so I would be thankful if someone could enlighten me with the correct information.

Thanks in advance.
#5201SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
@ Sebudai

Your figures in the WWS parses are very similar to mine for BT but in Hyjal you seem to be doing more dps. But as someone once said (Malan and Rob i think) in an earlier response to one of my posts....WWS is not comparable between different guilds raids etc its such a subjective way to do things. One thing is for sure though that the average dps in your raids across all classes is very high no slackers there for sure :-) Do you tend to run with 6/7 healers these days?

With regards to WWS I see your guild does not use the online service for hosting as the links you show are to your guilds web space. I think you are therefore using the local generation of stats and hosting the results your selves. I would be grateful if you could ask your WWS guys how they manage to get the whole fight for Akama, including the Channellers and other mobs. When you host a BT parse on WWS servers it only shows Akama as a fight from the time he is released. Do your guys trim the logs? for each fight and host them? If so I think this may be a better way to give more accurate and meaningful parses, focussing specifically on each encounter.

I did a raid last night in ZA with the elemental spec 16/45/0 ( thought I would try it out before our Hyjal/BT clear tomorrow) within the first 2 bosses I had party messages from my group asking if WF was down lol. I think you know the reasons why......I ended up totem twisting......but just WF!!
#5202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Kalince
Originally Posted by Beowolf
As far as the WWS parses, I admit they seem roughly legitimate as I crunch the numbers and compare the various times. Unfortunately they are also HIGHLY misleading, as they only count DPS when you are actually fighting a mob, and not when you are doing something else: like getting out of an AE, healing, dropping totems etc.
No they give you both numbers. They raw overall damage explains how much damage you did on the fight and the raid members are even ranked by this number by default. WWS also gives you the DPS while you are actually fighting but the goal as a raider would be to increase both of these numbers given a fight of the same length. A DPS time goal of 100% is reasonable given you keep the flame shock dot up at all times (resists will knock this down but that is why it is a goal).

In any case his 92% DPS is a reasonable time DPsing as I typically get around that with Rage and still his numbers are way higher then mine given similar gear which is rather surprising. I think I pretty much have the cause narrowed down though which is the things he has over me is BoM (I hate our paladins), possibly group composition (where is the feral druid), and better overall raid DPS will inflate anyone's numbers who get a heroism.

P.S. - Every single example you gave of WWS calculating things wrong you are either using the wrong numbers or you are doing the math wrong (I checked each one).
#5203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
WWS parses are misleading, they can be incomplete, etc.

They are useless to generate theory, only hypothesis and confirmation.

But at the very least, understand the metrics you're disputing. That bit about DPS time and flame shock I did not realize, though I should have, as I raid with a shadow priest who's usually at 99% dps time.
#5204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0gorsameth
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
But at the very least, understand the metrics you're disputing. That bit about DPS time and flame shock I did not realize, though I should have, as I raid with a shadow priest who's usually at 99% dps time.
The reeason flame shock will raise your dps time is because of the way WWS checks if you are dpsing a mob. by having flameshock up you will deal dmg every few seconds which stops the report from thinking your not hitting the boss at that point
Which is why classes like a shadowpriest have 99-100% dps time because there is always a dot ticking.
#5205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Beowolf
I guess it depends on if you are fighting a mob that is constantly casting spells or a mob that does mostly melee attacks. But no, I've never seen a 1500 DPS situation outside of Teron Gorefiend. Show me your AP/Crit/Hit that gives you 1500 DPS on Yo!s simulator, please.
Hmmm you're so wrong on so many fronts.

I achieve 1500+ dps on many fights in BT/Hyjal. I even posted WWS logs of 1500+ dps excluding totem damage....

Also, Yo's sim gives me 1650-1700 dps. My stats are 1880 AP/20.03% hit/33.98% crit, with standard group buffs like battle shout, BoM. Check it out for yourself :/
#5206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by rava
It isn't an exploit, WoW Forums -> Totem Twisting



Later in the thread:



I'll leave the WWS dwellings and gear comparisons alone because I am entirely too lazy to put any effort into it.
Perhaps exploit is too hard of a word, but it is certainly a bug and it is certainly going to be fixed. Better to get off the juice now than miss it later :P
#5207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Illundai
<editted, terrible mood - apologies>

Last edited by Illundai : 11/24/07 at 2:33 PM.
#5208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai
That you can only do 1500 dps on Teron is utter bulllshit. Sorry, you really do feel like a WoW forum troll.
While I admit that RoS is a slightly "gimped" fight for damage comparisons, I had 2086 dps on all 3 phases combined.

So Teron is definitly not the only fight you can do 1500 dps on :P

/sarcasm off
#5209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox
While I admit that RoS is a slightly "gimped" fight for damage comparisons, I had 2086 dps on all 3 phases combined.

So Teron is definitly not the only fight you can do 1500 dps on :P

/sarcasm off
Well, I accept that I was wrong about the DPS aspect, but I do still feel that the WWS dps numbers can be incomplete and misleading, as others have mentioned so far. My own criteria for DPS is Total Damage / (Time of engagement till NPC death) or (Time of engagement until your death) where the time of engagement is the moment the MT gets agro until the moment the mob dies. None of this 'well I was healing for 25 seconds of the fight so this doesn't impact my DPS' or 'I was getting out of range of the AE or redropping totems' manipulative quirks :P

So by that standard, Sebudai, your real DPS on these fights was:

RWC - 172 seconds of tanking, 1404 instead of 1701 (-17.5%)
Anetheron - 217 seconds of tanking, 1450 instead of 1596 (-9.2%)
Kaz'rogal - 175 seconds of tanking, 1367 instead of 1495 (-8.6%)
Naj'entus - 225 seconds of tanking, 1278 instead of 1403 (-8.9%)
Teron - 191 seconds of tanking, 1712 instead of 1826 (-6.2%)

So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes.
#5210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok this line of discussion just needs to stop. Several of you are acting like total asshats right now.
#5211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
*how* can you do so much dps? share your secrets... sure, I need to get me a RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon combo yet, but the rest of my gear is pretty similar to all of your guys claiming to do such high dps.. our rogues don't even hit 1400 most of the time
#5212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0dardack
Ok I'll leave the resto/ele discussion to others along with the DPS numbers, since i'm still in T4 stuff and my guild is just doing gruuls and started ZA and clearing prince on kara. My question is how to compaire AEP numbers for different speeded weapons with different DPS numbers. I know i posted this a few pages ago, but I've still been searching for a way and still haven't found an answer. I like to use a spreadsheet for my gear, each page has weapons i have, helms, chestpieces, etc, along with pieces i know could dropfrom the bosses we are doing and any weapons i maybe able to make in the future. So i've used pitbulls numbers i believe for the AEP numbers for DPS on weapons. I know that slower with same DPS is better, but what about differing DPS numbers with differing speeds. My thought was taking the 8.48MH/4.24OH numbers, taking those dividing by 2.6 (the original weapon speed) and then multiplying by the current weapon speed. This will make faster ie 2.2 worse and slower 2.8 better, where i know we don't want to get over 2.7 i think, maybe 2.8, so obviously i don't compare anything slower than that. So basically (AEP of DPS/2.6)*Current Weapons speed. My math skills have left me as i've gotten out of college over the years, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
#5213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Malan
Ok this line of discussion just needs to stop. Several of you are acting like total asshats right now.
Very well. I apologize for being an asshat to anyone
#5214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Paradox
*how* can you do so much dps? share your secrets... sure, I need to get me a RT/Syphon or Syphon/Syphon combo yet, but the rest of my gear is pretty similar to all of your guys claiming to do such high dps.. our rogues don't even hit 1400 most of the time
Well firstly, is your raid maximising it's debuffs? I'm talking sunder+CoR+FF etc, do you have expose weakness, Imp Hunters mark etc etc. If you are, then your rogues are plain lacking dps.

Secondary, your gear isn't *that* close to the people you are comparing with. Only had a quick glance but your crit is low which has a big effect on flurry uptime, if you look at others (mine for example) we are running with 32-34% crit unbuffed so in raids its upto around 38-42% constantly = 90%+ flurried strikes and 100% UR. I recommend ditching those rings and get others, the hyjal one atleast for example.

Lastly, it's purely a case of paying attention to GCDs as there really isn't any secret to dpsing as enhancement its just a matter of using SS and shocks as soon as the cooldown is up and always drop totems when SS & shocks are on cooldown.
#5215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Myul
The difference in the personal damage depends a LOT from your raid composition:

Druid: oomkin +3% hit, feral +5% crit if he's in your group; fearie fire applied?
Paladin: retribution +3% crit & +2% dmg if he's in your group
Hunter: +3% per beastmaster if they're in your group, survival ~ +300 AP from expose weakness, marksmanship +440 AP from improved hunter's mark
Warrior: improved battleshout + solarian trinket, blood frenzy +4% dmg?, sunder armor applied?
Warlock: Curse of recklessness (!)

(multiple) leatherworker with [Drums of War] or [Drums of Battle] in your group? Do you chainchug hastepots? And while comparing gear on charsheets, did you look for possibile proccs, weapon expertise and armor penetration?

---

Resto or ele?
I would never drop the 10yards on my totem range on any (trashwaves) fight in hyal. And i really like totem twisting a lot, totemic focus helps. The personal damage might be a little higher with reverbation, but without totem twisting my group damage will drop a lot (more?).

Last edited by Myul : 11/24/07 at 4:38 PM. Reason: adding something
#5216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Myul
The difference in the personal damage depends a LOT from your raid composition:

Druid: oomkin +3% hit, feral +5% crit if he's in your group; fearie fire applied?
Paladin: retribution +3% crit & +2% dmg if he's in your group
Hunter: +3% per beastmaster if they're in your group, survival ~ +300 AP from expose weakness, marksmanship +440 AP from improved hunter's mark
Warrior: improved battleshout + solarian trinket, blood frenzy +4% dmg?, sunder armor applied?
Warlock: Curse of recklessness (!)

(multiple) leatherworker with [Drums of War] or [Drums of Battle] in your group? Do you chainchug hastepots? And while comparing gear on charsheets, did you look for possibile proccs, weapon expertise and armor penetration?

---

Resto or ele?
I would never drop the 10yards on my totem range on any (trashwaves) fight in hyal. And i really like totem twisting a lot, totemic focus helps. The personal damage might be a little higher with reverbation, but without totem twisting my group damage will drop a lot (more?).
Side note, imp hunter's mark only applies to the base ap(110).
#5217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
I. Adding to Ele VS Resto flame:
1.Each individual shock is effectively increased by 1.3% only, when going ele from resto:
0,83*1,05/0,86 = 1,013
2. Loosing 3% melee hit is affecting not only the white part even with hit cap being reached for yellow attacks.
Your on-hit procs from items and your windfurry damage are directly affected.
It is not 3% of white damage it is 3%*7/5 at least not counting trinkets and cross-effect.
3. Whole elemental damage part is dependant on how many shocks per 2 min cycle you can upkeep. 2 min - because totems, UR, pot and possibly trinket are on this timer and you need to renew them.
Those who specced resto are usually in the range 12-14 shocks per 2 minutes instead of 20.
Keep in mind that shocks have low priority - if you shock but SS or trinket activation are delayed - your total dps is going to drop because 85%+ of your damage comes from melee.
Here is a table of dps increases one will see if being able to perform 4 shocks more over 2 minutes while speccing from resto to ele if all raid spell buffs will be ready for your use:
Eleresto - INFOSTORE.ORG
If you think that 18 shocks over 2 minutes is easy - please show your wws.

II. Sim
"To do list":
Stonebreaker relic
Executioner enchant
Expertise replacing weapon skill + inclusion into EP calculation
Zul'Amani buff
Saving settings between sessions
Elemental damage part review
EP step scale
(melee damage is being predicted with std as low as 1 leading to EP values std of 0.3 but introduction of spell damage part added its own std of 1-2 leading to unacceptable std of EP values - 0,6+ with 10,000 hours setup, further increasing hours is not helping, so there are 2 ways to go - redesign spell part and introduce option of higher AP/rating steps while calculating EP values)
Mana balance calculation (per 2 minutes cycle)
Internal item's database
Dressing room
GUI selection of items
Items import (parsing item's tooltip)
Full character import from WoW armory

"It will be done when it will be ready" (c) Blizzard

III. Ignore armor
IA is unique in that if you are stacking it - it's EP value is increasing.
This can possibly lead to a situation when EP values suggest upgrade direction with balanced stats while it is possible to "jump" to another local extremum (with possible higher dps) with a lot of AI within same item's budget.

IV. Rhetoric question
How the hell Blizzard thinks one can effectively tune their characters (gear/talents/playstyle) without going deep into theorycrafting? And they continue to add new stats into mix..

Originally Posted by dardack
I like to use a spreadsheet for my gear, each page has weapons i have, helms, chestpieces, etc, along with pieces i know could dropfrom the bosses we are doing and any weapons i maybe able to make in the future. So i've used pitbulls numbers i believe for the AEP numbers for DPS on weapons.
Don't use other's EP numbers - find your own. As for comparing weapons with different speeds - it's too complex to do it directly with EP (for me at least) but you can use alternative - run simulation (your spreadsheet will provide you with starting numbers) and compare resulting dps.
#5218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
@Yo - The sim no longer functions with OS X 10.5.1 Leopard, the Mac Java package broke Java 6 functionality. I'm not sure if your code is using actualy Java 6 methods or if you're just compiling it with Java 6 for the heck of it?
#5219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
@Yo - The sim no longer functions with OS X 10.5.1 Leopard, the Mac Java package broke Java 6 functionality. I'm not sure if your code is using actualy Java 6 methods or if you're just compiling it with Java 6 for the heck of it?
All design elements are from Java 6 (fancy buttons, etc.). Java turned out to be not that universal (including different looks on different systems). Hopefully Java 6 will be supported by Macs soon.
#5220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Destro
Apologies if this is too specific or anything, but I'd appreciate some comforting feedback. I haven't noticed this posted yet.

I ran my stats through Yo's sim for 10,000 hours and got agility as worth more than strength. Isn't this a little odd? I've never seen any raiding enhancement shaman gem towards agility over strength. If I run it for 1,000 hours I get a set of seemingly more sensible results, is this just some inaccuracy of the calculator or are these my real AEP values? I see no way in which I've made an error in inputting my stats.

EDIT: I just read Yo's post, is this possibly an error from ticking the AP -> +dmg conversion box?

Stats increased by 10% for kings and including talents:

1613AP, 30.5% crit, 15.02% hit, 2% haste, 0 Arm Pen, DS/Merc Glad, double WF Mongoose etc etc.

Crit: 2.37
Hit: 1.86
Haste: 2.21
Arm Pen: 0.28
Str: 2.2
Agi: 2.31

Thanks.

Last edited by Destro : 11/24/07 at 6:31 PM. Reason: clarity
#5221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Destro
EDIT: I just read Yo's post, is this possibly an error from ticking the AP -> +dmg conversion box?
Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.
#5222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Destro
Thanks a lot, Yo.
#5223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Perhaps exploit is too hard of a word, but it is certainly a bug and it is certainly going to be fixed. Better to get off the juice now than miss it later :P
Why should you gimp yourself now just because you'll be nerfed later? The only time that makes sense is when the nerfs result in having to relearn how to play. With something like the removal of mana conserve mods for healing, it made sense to learn how to play without them prior to 1.10 coming out so that you wouldn't have a raid full of healers going OOM at 90% when 1.10 did come out. With totem twisting, you have to learn to... not hit your totem twist macro. It seems very unlikely that you don't already know how to do that. The only thing that you might have to "learn" is how to beat fights with slightly less DPS, but it's a low priority bug that isn't easy to fix. I would not be at all surprised to see totem twisting still working well into WotLK.
#5224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
I also made some calculations today. With my values as a base, I tried to answer two questions:

a.) With the new Mental Quickness, in which amount has the value of AP increased?
b.) How many EP do I need to increase my DPS by 1%?

Well, I don't want to post the whole calculations here, but I got my two answers:

a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active.
b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase.
#5225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.

b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%.

Short version - you haven't discovered anything new.
#5226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gromthak
Orcs and their precious axes

I recently made the big step into Black Temple and picked up a Rising Tide. What I was wondering is if my current offhand (Netherbane) would outperform a syphon?
I tried working with Yo!'s sim but it sadly does not include expertise yet. Running the sim without including expertise put syphon ahead of netherbane by 0.5% dps.
So if anyone could help me figure out which weapon would be better would be greatly appreciated.
#5227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
@ Sebudai

Your figures in the WWS parses are very similar to mine for BT but in Hyjal you seem to be doing more dps. But as someone once said (Malan and Rob i think) in an earlier response to one of my posts....WWS is not comparable between different guilds raids etc its such a subjective way to do things.
I disagree. Why isn't it comparable between different guilds? If the logs are taken correctly, WWS is a great tool for this purpose. Its useful because of its subjectiveness.

One thing is for sure though that the average dps in your raids across all classes is very high no slackers there for sure :-) Do you tend to run with 6/7 healers these days?
Thanks. It just depends on the fight. We swap the raid around for each encounter, but on average I'd say we raid with 7-8 healers.

With regards to WWS I see your guild does not use the online service for hosting as the links you show are to your guilds web space. I think you are therefore using the local generation of stats and hosting the results your selves. I would be grateful if you could ask your WWS guys how they manage to get the whole fight for Akama, including the Channellers and other mobs. When you host a BT parse on WWS servers it only shows Akama as a fight from the time he is released. Do your guys trim the logs? for each fight and host them? If so I think this may be a better way to give more accurate and meaningful parses, focussing specifically on each encounter.
To get the whole fight you just need multiple people logging, preferably from a variety of classes. You can also extend the logging range pretty far using addons etc. All of our logs get sent to Grimx who does the trimming, which basically involves cutting out all the pre/post-fight buffing. The logs start when the first attack of the encounter is landed, and they end when the "<Boss Name> dies." line appears in the combat log.

-----

Well, I accept that I was wrong about the DPS aspect, but I do still feel that the WWS dps numbers can be incomplete and misleading, as others have mentioned so far. My own criteria for DPS is Total Damage / (Time of engagement till NPC death) or (Time of engagement until your death) where the time of engagement is the moment the MT gets agro until the moment the mob dies. None of this 'well I was healing for 25 seconds of the fight so this doesn't impact my DPS' or 'I was getting out of range of the AE or redropping totems' manipulative quirks :P
There are very good reasons for WWS to calculate DPS in this way. The reason we care about the DPS statistic in the first place is because it helps us evaluate what kind of damage output a certain class is capable of. Due to the random elements involved in many encounters, players can lose "DPS time" for non-class specific reasons, and under your criteria their DPS would drop and the statistic would become less meaningful as far as its ability to help tell us how well a player is playing. For example, what would happen if a particular mage was Doomed 3 times on Azgalor? Under your criteria his DPS would be terrible, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing anything wrong at all.

Calculating DPS in this way allows us to get a good idea of how each class stacks up despite all of the random events going on in a lot of encounters that can just randomly affect some players much more than others. You are correct that this can be abused, but it would be fairly obvious just by looking at DPS time and other information the WWS provides for us. It's not like I have 20% DPS time and I'm popping all of my cooldowns every time I "joust" the mob. I have 90%+ DPS time in pretty much all of these parses. Many of your comments are borderline accusatory and insulting. Do you honestly think I'm intentionally attempting to abuse the way WWS calculates DPS just to inflate my numbers so I can impress some random shaman on the Elitist Jerks forums?

So again, without the quirks, your DPS is well short of 1500 dps on all fights but Teron. It seems that the more you have to stay out of melee DPS (such as avoiding D&D) the more inflated your total DPS becomes.
This is not true at all. The way WWS calculates DPS is just as likely to affect mine in a negative way as it is to inflate it. What happens when I pop Bloodlust on Archimonde only to have half of my group Air Bursted with my Flame Shock ticking away?
#5228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Malan
a) The value of AP is and will always be, 1. Its what all the other values are based upon. It doesn't increase or decrease. Its just 1. It is the rock, the foundation that all other values derive from.

b) EP is boiling things down into an attack power equivalence. So that's great, you just said that 50 Attack Power increases your DPS by 1%.

Short version - you haven't discovered anything new.
So what? I said I wanted to know how much the benefit of AP has increased because of the new Mental Quickness? This question in the beginning has nothing to do with the fact, that we use AP as a fixed-value in the EP system. We could also use crit instead. But because we use AP this way, I calculated how much I have to reduce the other values to take account for this change. This should be a valueable information for other shamans, that are still using the EP values from Yo's sim without MQ, because of the instability with the MQ option activated. So why the flame?
#5229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0beetlejuice
I am asking again, for the people who are playing enhancement shaman in raids and are using few elemental talents instead of the typical restoration ones..

isn't the loss of 3% spell hit from nature's guidance affecting your shock total damage? Don't you have lots of resists, or maybe even partials?


PS Any way to add the damage from your totems (searing, magma and nova totems, well fire /earth elemental's too) to your damage meter?
#5230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
As I showed here: http://elitistjerks.com/557586-post5149.html

You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
#5231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Beowolf
As I showed here: http://elitistjerks.com/557586-post5149.html

You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
Unless you are in total GCD frenzy that won't happen.

All factored in a 10 second Frame :

2 Totems Every 10 seconds = 3 Sec GCD

2 Shocks Every 10 Seconds = 3 Sec GCD

Stormstrike Once Every 10 seconds = 1.5 Sec GCD

Add them all up you got 7.5 Seconds as GCD.

Now Factor in an average of 200ms per Button Press. (5 Buttons X 200ms = 1 Sec)

Thats 8.5 Seconds of Only GCDs leaving only 1.5 Second as margin of error.

You can do that but you gonna be too stressed out in the end & once you miss one WF you gonna have your whole group suffer when it comes to overall damge.

So it's a high margin of error with very small margin of gain.

Either go with shocks or Totem twisting & neither both.
#5232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
Don´t forget that you "have" to drop Firenova on CD and Searing after that, which is not on a 10 sec timer, so it will throw you off anyway. Besides waiting for you WF cooldown pre SS is going to do way more damage anyway ^^ ...
#5233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Didn't include them seeing that you will be dropping them once every 2 mins.
#5234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Scribbles
Originally Posted by Malan
VIII.3 Itemization – Haste
Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS. Prior to patch 2.2 Haste Rating became the superior stat, but the 2.3 patch reduced its EP value closer to that of Hit Rating.

Modeling indicated weapons hasted between 1.51 and 1.41 speed will actually experience a sharp decrease in potential Windfury DPS. The range of 1.51- 1.41 speed was believed to cause the main hand to always finish a swing just before the end of a WF cooldown, making you wait longer for the next eligible swing that can proc WF. If hasted in this period for a long duration, you could expect WF DPS contribution to decrease. However, you'll also experience many more white swings during that time, and so the loss of potential WF procs should be offset by the increased white DPS. It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.
Speaking as a Shaman who trolled the WoW-EU forums for months now, I was always under the impression that dipping below 1.5 weapon speed whilst using a WF+WF setup was never a good thing. However browsing this forum and discovering this (wonderful) post, this illusion has apparently been shattered.

I was wondering however, is there any specific theory-crafting/evidence to back this up? Or is it done using one of the various spreadsheets available? I tried using the search function, but after several pages couldn't seem to find much for it.

Also, at what level does haste rating become a stat to focus on? Or is it simply another nice to have stat whilst not bothering looking for specific bits with it on? (aka another hit rating)

As an off note, I'm loving all the math going on here, it's like my nerdish dream.

Last edited by Scribbles : 11/25/07 at 6:59 AM. Reason: Post Clarity
#5235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Scribbles
Speaking as a Shaman who trolled the WoW-EU forums for months now, I was always under the impression that dipping below 1.5 weapon speed whilst using a WF+WF setup was never a good thing. However browsing this forum and discovering this (wonderful) post, this illusion has apparently been shattered.

I was wondering however, is there any specific theory-crafting/evidence to back this up? Or is it done using one of the various spreadsheets available?

Also, at what level does haste rating become a stat to focus on? Or is it simply another nice to have stat whilst not bothering looking for specific bits with it on? (aka another hit rating)

As an off note, I'm loving all the math going on here, it's like my nerdish dream.
The theorycraft was the fact that since Windfury is on a 3 second cooldown, having the swing speed between 1.4-1.5 will cause you to just barely miss the next legal windfury proc attack, effectively reducing your windfury damage in theory.

However, this has not been reproduced successfully or reported. And the reasoning behind that is the fact that at consistent 1.4-1.5 haste, your white attacks are so much more effective that losing out on potential windfury procs will not hurt your DPS as some have theorized.

Haste and armor penetration are things that get progressively good as you stack them. However, with the items available in the game right now, I do not think it is feasible to completely stack haste/Ar.P at the cost of other stats and come out with better stats.
#5236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Scribbles
Originally Posted by david0925
The theorycraft was the fact that since Windfury is on a 3 second cooldown, having the swing speed between 1.4-1.5 will cause you to just barely miss the next legal windfury proc attack, effectively reducing your windfury damage in theory.

However, this has not been reproduced successfully or reported. And the reasoning behind that is the fact that at consistent 1.4-1.5 haste, your white attacks are so much more effective that losing out on potential windfury procs will not hurt your DPS as some have theorized.
Fair game, so at what standard of gear should you be thinking "Oh, a bit of haste wouldn't go un-noticed"? Is it, as asked, just a side-grade to our normal stats(AP/Crit)? Or should it be a focused on stat as soon as possible?

Edit:: Just seen the last paragraph. Thanks for the quick response.

Last edited by Scribbles : 11/25/07 at 7:30 AM.
#5237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Having read the last few pages about ele vs resto and the totem range you get/miss depending on your build, I had a question pop up in my head.

Is there an addon which shows you directly which of your party members are in range of which totems?

Having something like this would not only be great for enh shamans of course, it would also be very nice for all the other shamans to better support their group.

If there isn't something like that, is anyone interested in creating one? I'd gladly offer my support for testing, maybe even a bit of coding/debugging.
#5238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Hi all. I play as Fury DPS Warrior in raids, and I know how important a shaman really is for us, not only for pure DPS purposes but also for smoother rage generation. Now, I've been used in earlier SSC/TK raids with previous guilds to have an Enhancement Shaman almost always in party and that helped me stand on par and even ahead better geared DPSers, even rogues on certain encounters; I know that an Enhancement Shaman can boost a Fury Warrior by about 220DPS with everything talented, and this is just amazing, I literally fly in damage but most importantly in the fun-factor when I have one in my group.

However, I decided to migrate on another server and now I find myself in a guild which attempts to attune the very last people before entering the Mount Hyjal/Black Temple's journey. Unfortunately they have no Enhancement Shaman, and they didn't even have a Fury Warrior before me; they just used to ran with 3 rogues and such. I already had a chat with the GM trying to talk with him of the importance of shamans in raid(Self-resurrection, Heroism, and in our case invaluable party buffs), but in order to really persuade him I'm in need of some raw data comparison.
How much DPS contribution(personal plus added) can a well-geared Enhancement Shaman, post 2.3, bring to the raid in comparison of a third rogue, given an ideal melee group(feral druid, fury warrior and 2 rogues)? As I previously stated I already know that it is more than worth it, but I need some data proof.

Thanks in advance.
#5239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Scribbles
Fair game, so at what standard of gear should you be thinking "Oh, a bit of haste wouldn't go un-noticed"? Is it, as asked, just a side-grade to our normal stats(AP/Crit)? Or should it be a focused on stat as soon as possible?
Read more about EP system from first post. All stats are assigned the value based on your total current stats so you can compare gear.

a.) The benefit of AP has increased by around 3%. Which means, that you can divide all other values by 1.03, as long as the sim can't calculate stable EP values with Mental Quickness active.
b.) 50 EP translates to a 1% total DPS increase.
Those "secondary" stats (EP to % of dps increase, etc.) depend on your current stats just like EP values of stats, It is interesting to know indeed and I plan adding "dps gain per EP" line to the sim. Thank you for the idea.

How much DPS contribution(personal plus added) can a well-geared Enhancement Shaman, post 2.3, bring to the raid in comparison of a third rogue, given an ideal melee group(feral druid, fury warrior and 2 rogues)? As I previously stated I already know that it is more than worth it, but I need some data proof.
You may want to show him some wws logs such as the ones that were posted by Sebudai few pages back and his guilds wws logs where he was not present. Or you can select a hard way and go to other melee classes forums, find simulators and run them with and without shaman buffs. Keep in mind that hardcore raid-friendly shamans love to totem twist providing 2 air totems instead of 1.

Last edited by Yo! : 11/25/07 at 7:59 AM.
#5240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Bragor
Unless you are in total GCD frenzy that won't happen.

All factored in a 10 second Frame :

2 Totems Every 10 seconds = 3 Sec GCD

2 Shocks Every 10 Seconds = 3 Sec GCD

Stormstrike Once Every 10 seconds = 1.5 Sec GCD

Add them all up you got 7.5 Seconds as GCD.

Now Factor in an average of 200ms per Button Press. (5 Buttons X 200ms = 1 Sec)

Thats 8.5 Seconds of Only GCDs leaving only 1.5 Second as margin of error.

You can do that but you gonna be too stressed out in the end & once you miss one WF you gonna have your whole group suffer when it comes to overall damge.

So it's a high margin of error with very small margin of gain.

Either go with shocks or Totem twisting & neither both.

But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight. A situation that interupts your cast flow (archi air burst, silences etc) do the same for an enh/resto shaman, and as long as you can instantly recognise what has the highest priority to cast as soon as you are next able it works out fine.

For the non air totems they can be redropped in the 'spare' gcd one at a time, no need to be doing a mass redrop all at once. And I haven't found any fight (including trash) where I cannot keep my group fully totemed the whole time.

The point here is not to try and convince people that enh/ele is better than enh/resto, just that they are both equally viable. Neither has a noticable total raid dps lead on the other, they do however offer a slightly different play style from each other. People should be trying them both and going with what they like and works for them, not trying to get the answer to 'which is best for all shaman', because as things stand there is no answer.
#5241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Khlysti
But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight..
I would like to see your wws with totem twisting and shocking as you claim.
#5242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Yo!



You may want to show him some wws logs such as the ones that were posted by Sebudai few pages back and his guilds wws logs where he was not present. Or you can select a hard way and go to other melee classes forums, find simulators and run them with and without shaman buffs. Keep in mind that hardcore raid-friendly shamans love to totem twist providing 2 air totems instead of 1.
Unluckily he *is* present in basically every WWS log that his guild cared to upload.

Any other can provide some numbers?
#5243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by Mano
Having read the last few pages about ele vs resto and the totem range you get/miss depending on your build, I had a question pop up in my head.

Is there an addon which shows you directly which of your party members are in range of which totems?

Having something like this would not only be great for enh shamans of course, it would also be very nice for all the other shamans to better support their group.

If there isn't something like that, is anyone interested in creating one? I'd gladly offer my support for testing, maybe even a bit of coding/debugging.

Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.

Last edited by Mox : 11/25/07 at 9:30 AM.
#5244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
It does not show tremor because tremor does not give any buff to the party members, while WF can be seen on a weapon for example. That is based on logical deduction and might be totally wrong.
#5245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Atren
It does not show tremor because tremor does not give any buff to the party members, while WF can be seen on a weapon for example. That is based on logical deduction and might be totally wrong.
This was what I was thinking too, all the totems that have a visible buff icon can be tracked and shown.
#5246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Danath
Unluckily he *is* present in basically every WWS log that his guild cared to upload.
I got him He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
Illidan with Sebudai (Oct 4) = WWS
Illidan without Sebudai - WWS
Raid dps went down from 10,879 to 9,981
His group lost 310 dps (2 rogues, war and druid I believe) rogues loosing 100+ dps each.
At that time Sebudai's own dps was 1130 and highest rogues dps without shaman was 1320 so shaman over roque was +120 dps at that time for the group.
Both logs are from patch 2.2, shaman's individual dps was boosted greatly in 2.3

EDIT:
Sebudai was replaced by caster-shaman for totems so the group still gained WF totem (but not improved), Str (not improved), no AGI (from totem twist) and no UR. Also the war woulld be more affected by shaman's change if DW.

Last edited by Yo! : 11/25/07 at 12:24 PM.
#5247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Stupid internet connection went down...
#5248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
That's *great* info Yo!. I'm going to be looking at these parses more closely to see exactly what can be gleaned.

Ok, so the first thing that I see is that they're in range of the wf totem about 10% less of the time (averaging 36 as opposed to 40 or so WF extra attacks without him vs with him).

Also, the rogues' dps time is about 5% lower in the parses without him, which affects the overall numbers.

Other than that, the data looks pretty good. I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that would be standard - that a resto/elemental shaman wouldn't be able to maintain as much wf uptime/proximity as an enhance shaman. 100dps extra per rogue by having him in the group seems reasonable to me.
#5249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Yo!
I got him He missed Sep 27 night entirely with 3 fights including Ilidan.
Illidan with Sebudai (Oct 4) = WWS
Illidan without Sebudai - WWS
Raid dps went down from 10,879 to 9,981
His group lost 310 dps (2 rogues, war and druid I believe) rogues loosing 100+ dps each.
At that time Sebudai's own dps was 1130 and highest rogues dps without shaman was 1320 so shaman over roque was +120 dps at that time for the group.
Both logs are from patch 2.2, shaman's individual dps was boosted greatly in 2.3
Fact is that Warrior is 2h Arms, and Arms get the lesser benefit now. Fury Warriors gain far and ahead the most benefit out of shamans right now. Also I believe that other boss fights would better show how much of a consistent gain an enhancement shaman can be for melee group, am I correct?
#5250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mkael
Originally Posted by Beowolf
As I showed here: http://elitistjerks.com/557586-post5149.html

You do slightly more damage with elemental talents per shock even factoring in the resist rates. The real benefit is in the 1 second cooldown reduction, which means your shocks are enhanced by 22% overall. You COULD totem twist and double shock every SS cooldown, but its very mana intensive.
This was already brought up before that post in http://elitistjerks.com/552989-post4997.html, same maths and all so nothing new. Even comments from Disq about it...

I would also assume a lot of peeps will switch when 2.4 hits due to better logging...

/Mkael
#5251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Mox
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
ok, thanks. I'll try it out.
#5252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Revdarian
It must do a buff check, the totems it doesn�t display are those that do not put a buff over the player but instead pulse an effect, like for example Poison Cleansing, Disease Cleansing, Tremor Totem, etc.
#5253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Danath
Originally Posted by Disquette
That's *great* info Yo!. I'm going to be looking at these parses more closely to see exactly what can be gleaned.

Ok, so the first thing that I see is that they're in range of the wf totem about 10% less of the time (averaging 36 as opposed to 40 or so WF extra attacks without him vs with him).

Also, the rogues' dps time is about 5% lower in the parses without him, which affects the overall numbers.

Other than that, the data looks pretty good. I don't think it's unreasonable to thing that would be standard - that a resto/elemental shaman wouldn't be able to maintain as much wf uptime/proximity as an enhance shaman. 100dps extra per rogue by having him in the group seems reasonable to me.
Are you talking about the Shaman Enhancement or a Shaman specced in another way when you refer to "him" ultimately?
#5254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
This is kind of a 'duh' post but there are too many wws comparing posts and I think I is important for people to consider these ideas when looking at wws parses.

1) You cannot just click random wws reports and compare their shaman numbers with your own. You must also compare total raid dps on their side with your own raid dps. Assume a 4M HP boss. If their raid has 16000 dps and yours has 12000 dps that means their fight was done in 250 seconds and yours in 333. So they were bloodlusted for 16% of their raid and you were bloodlusted for 12% of yours. Your guildmates can have a profound on your dps and it needs to be taken into consideration when analyzing wws parses.

2) Also please remember that there is large variance for enhance dps. Load up Yo's sim and put in all default values and a simulation time of 1 hour. After clicking simulate 10-15 times I had a minimum result of 901 and a maximum result of 951. This is after one hour of simulation meaning this data should be far tighter than anything we would see against a boss. DPS swings in the 5-10% range are to be expected, do not get worried about them.
#5255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox
Chaman2 totem addon from Ace displeys the number of party members within each totems range. I pretty much couldn't play without, it makes totem dropping & selecting a complete breeze.

Edit* - It doesn't show some totems, like tremor for example, not exactly sure why, but it does show the numbers on WF/GoA/SoE/Mana/Healing etc so you can pretty much say if everyones in range of WF, then everyones in range of the others.
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
#5256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
It hasn't been updated in over 30 days according to the version I have installed on my local machine. The problem w/ chaman is that it is actually named something else: "TotemManager" (on Curse<-- that is a link btw, because I can never see them on the EJ forums), the folder is just named chaman.
#5257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
You must not have looked very hard :/ can't be any more specific than the exact addon name.

But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 ....

Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section.
#5258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Beowolf
Im not finding the Chaman2 totem Addon on the WowAceUpdater or their website. The only return Chaman2 gives me on Curse is a compilation pack. Could you be a tad more specific?
Chaman2

Edit: Too slow
#5259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Totemus can also be set to track how many of your party members are in range of your totems. I can't remember the name of the option, but it's the third setting on the slider at the bottom of the timer configuration window. Doesn't track windfury or pulse totems but it does track SoE/GoA/healing stream/mana spring.
#5260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox
You must not have looked very hard :/ can't be any more specific than the exact addon name.

But heres a link for you, wowace c list then just go down the list to Chaman2 ....

Oh, and just found it on wowaceupdater, in the outdated section.
Which is why I didnt see it :P
#5261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Khlysti
But it *is* entirely possible to do this, and keep it sustained for a whole fight. A situation that interupts your cast flow (archi air burst, silences etc) do the same for an enh/resto shaman, and as long as you can instantly recognise what has the highest priority to cast as soon as you are next able it works out fine.

For the non air totems they can be redropped in the 'spare' gcd one at a time, no need to be doing a mass redrop all at once. And I haven't found any fight (including trash) where I cannot keep my group fully totemed the whole time.

The point here is not to try and convince people that enh/ele is better than enh/resto, just that they are both equally viable. Neither has a noticable total raid dps lead on the other, they do however offer a slightly different play style from each other. People should be trying them both and going with what they like and works for them, not trying to get the answer to 'which is best for all shaman', because as things stand there is no answer.
I thought that this went without saying, but there is no way in hell you are going to have the mana to support this. With 8k buffed mana(pretty high estimate) and simply doing 2 shocks/10 sec, 2 totems/10 sec, Stormstrike, Searing/1min, and Mana Spring/SoE/2min you run into ~1800 mana/10 sec period. Now, with water shield, mana spring, and wisdom(lolright?) you still fall ~220/5 short of keeping up 1800 mana/10 sec, not including fire nova and searing totem rotations.
#5262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
#5263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
I think this thread is pretty much dedicated to PvE, but I'll answer anyway.

Without throwing around any numbers:

Assume Mongoose and Executioner are very close to equal in terms of plain vannilla dps increase.
Mongoose increases DPS through crit, which is mitigated by resiliance (crits do less bonus damage).
PvP gear now has passive armor pen, Amor Pen is better when you've got more of it.

Executioner doesn't increase your dodge though. Dodging helps you defensivly against warriors(somewhat) and rogues when they can't get behind you.

I'm going to assume that Mongoose/executioner is your better pvp option for most cases.
#5264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Dodge helps against rogues while you are not stunned, only exception being with 41 combat talent finishers cant be dodged i think?
#5265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm)

I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw:

EP calculation unstability when using 30% ap to spell damage talent option
So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
#5266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bdatik
Originally Posted by justinr
So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
I believe Yo! said a couple pages back that you should turn it off (like you assumed). Then run your numbers and subtract 0.1 - 0.2 from all stats except Strength and Attack Power.

Ahh, here we go:

Originally Posted by Yo!
Variation of EP (AEP) values is too high after selecting AP->dmg conversion making EP values produced with it being "on" unreliable. Use sim without conversion and substruct 0.1-0.2 from all values except Str and AP as a workaround for now.
#5267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by justinr
A question to other BT/Hijal Shamans:
How are you adjusting your EP numbers for mental quickness? (Yo's sim is a little broken atm)

I've been trying to evaluate some gear using my own personal EP from Yo's simulator. (Thank you for this wonderfull tool that keeps my entertained durring my working hours. My boss however would probably not like you because of that.) But I was getting some wildely different values from it for the exact same sim inputs. I read the notes below it and saw:



So I guess I'll have to turn that off untill its fixed? In the mean time how should I calculate these numbers? I've been tempted to turn that option off and just fudge the numbers a bit since I know it would make my other stats slightly lower in EP weight. How have you adjusted your numbers and why?

I'm not asking for my numbers to be calculated for me, I'd just like to hear how others are doing their own (and their reasoning) so I can decide the best way to do mine.
To be honest, I don't think any of the "best" items have changed since my gear has got better. Base values -> Inflated values each slot still has clear winners, the only real difference is the total points an item is worth is much higher.
#5268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0justinr
Originally Posted by Bdatik
I believe Yo! said a couple pages back that you should turn it off (like you assumed). Then run your numbers and subtract 0.1 - 0.2 from all stats except Strength and Attack Power.

Ahh, here we go:
Ah thanks.

To be honest, I don't think any of the "best" items have changed since my gear has got better. Base values -> Inflated values each slot still has clear winners, the only real difference is the total points an item is worth is much higher.
I was doing my comparisons on some badge gear to replace some old items for things I haven't been able to get the best items for yet. Just something to keep me busy outside raiding. :P (like leather badge pants vs T5 that I haven't gotten bow stiched to replace yet)
#5269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Danath
Are you talking about the Shaman Enhancement or a Shaman specced in another way when you refer to "him" ultimately?
I meant that having an enhancement shaman in the group with the rogues seemed to provide about 100 dps extra than having a non-enhance shaman (but still a shaman!) in that group. This comes partially from UR, partially from higher WF access uptime and enhanced melee totems.
#5270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0JulianMaiev
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?

I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points?
#5271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Psibeast
Having reached 4 piece T5 and the awsome set bonus that comes with it I was looking forward to what T6 has to offer and it seems very bad compared to the T5 set bonuses. Each piece by itself is an improvement as stats go, but the set bonuses are much worse.

I wanted to ask other shaman who are doing MH/BT and had 4 pc. T5 bonus, did you go for T6, or did you stick with 4 pieces of T5 to keep the bonus and just upgraded other slots? Is it worth losing the set bonus for the extra stats on the T6 gear?

Thanks
#5272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by JulianMaiev
A quick search didn't find any math on this, but I might have missed it-- is it possible that an Elemental Devastation build could be viable assuming that you are casting frost shocks of some rank, that you have an additional 10% crit from Winter's Chill, and that you have 3% crit from Imp JotC?

I understand that's a lot of assumptions, but that should put you at around an 18% crit rate. Since the recent round of math seems to have ele/enh builds very close to enh/resto builds anyway, might that be a worthwhile place to invest a couple of talent points?
There was significant discussion of this very topic within the last 10 pages or so.
#5273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Abakus
Originally Posted by Garlik
sorry if this has been answerd before, gone through main post and last few pages and couldnt find an answer*

when it comes to pvp , what would be a better weapon enchant choice? mongoose/mongoose or mongoose/exe ?
It depends on which bracket you are playing.

But for most matchups, i would recommend exec/mongoose, as crits result in many beneficial effects on most classes. More to purge means you might miss that one important BoP/BoF.

As S3-Gear has some armor pen on it to stack with exec, imho just go exec/mogoose
#5274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by rava
I thought that this went without saying, but there is no way in hell you are going to have the mana to support this. With 8k buffed mana(pretty high estimate) and simply doing 2 shocks/10 sec, 2 totems/10 sec, Stormstrike, Searing/1min, and Mana Spring/SoE/2min you run into ~1800 mana/10 sec period. Now, with water shield, mana spring, and wisdom(lolright?) you still fall ~220/5 short of keeping up 1800 mana/10 sec, not including fire nova and searing totem rotations.
Don't forget the mana gains of Shamanistic Rage!

But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems.
#5275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by panny
But I do agree that doing a full shock/twisting/totem rotation isn't possible due to GCD problems.
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
#5276SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
refused
Gladiator Fist Weapons

I spent this weekend accruing honor points to get some decent weapons and a shield. I was reading through this post and I tried reading though some of these follow up posts but over a hundred is kind of hard ;) , so I apologize if these issues have been discussed already.

All I saw discussed was using the Gladiator maces/axes set for duel weilders. My question is why not get the Fist set? Is it better to have the consistant range of a higher base hit and lower top end damage weapon like the maces/axe set or would one want to get the fist set with a lower base range and higher top end damage to hopefully get bigger number hits/crits? They are both the same speed so with WF on them it wouldn't be a difference in that respect. This would be in regards to BOTH PvP and PvE.

In PvP I didn't see anything said about using a sheild against warriors/rogues/hunters/pallies - stun classes (in general there was no mention of what sheild to grab in the list of items for us). I always thought that should be a rule of thumb but am I wrong here? (I should mention that 1/2 my gear is rogue epic Kara gear at the moment until I get better mail gear). I'm having a very hard time with those classes at the moment and I can only win if they have sub-par weapons/gear.

Some thoughts about these two questions would be great. Thanks in advance!

Last edited by refused : 11/27/07 at 11:15 AM.
#5277SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by refused
I spent this weekend accruing honor points to get some decent weapons and a shield. I was reading through this post and I tried reading thru some of these follow up posts but over a hundred is kind of hard so I apologize if these issues have been discussed already.

All I saw discussed was the Gladiator maces/axes set for duel weilders and my question is why not get the Fist set? Is it better to have the consistant range of a higher base hit and lower top end damage weapon like the maces/axe set or would one want to get the fist set with a lower base range and higher top end damage to possibly get bigger number hits/crits? They are both the same speed so with WF on them it wouldn't be a difference in that respect. This would be in regards to BOTH PvP and PvE.

In PvPA I didn't see anything said about using a sheild against warriors/rogues/pallies. I always thought that should be a rule of thumb but am I wrong here? (I must mention that 1/2 my gear is rogue epic Kara gear at the moment until I get better mail gear). I'm having a very hard time with those classes at the moment and I can only win if they are undergeared than me it seems. Some thoughts about these two questions would be great. Thanks in advance!
The main reason that people did not go fist is because it was MH only. Alot of us prefered to get One hand weps so that if we upgraded our MH wep, we could use the old one in the OH. As for the range difference, it really dosnet matter. Your just as likely to have someone live because you hit with the low end, as killing them with the high end. Its all preference on the look of the wep, or racial skills.

As for the shield, you should be swapping to the shield as soon as you are focused by a hunter/war/rogues. Even with SR up you often need the defense you give, especially when your going to be stunned for 1/2 the fight anyway so it wouldnt matter if you had a OH out.
#5278SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
refused
Originally Posted by Tsalrioth
The main reason that people did not go fist is because it was MH only.

In the test server I saw it was MH and OH just like the maces/axes set so I'm confused here - did it get changed?

Also, would someone mind linking to a page that posts best talent sets to be used in PvP and PvE? (Curious if my instincts are right in what I currently use) Thanks!!!

Last edited by refused : 11/27/07 at 11:32 AM.
#5279SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
berg
Originally Posted by refused
In the test server I saw it was MH and OH just like the maces/axes set so I'm confused here - did it get changed?

Also, would someone mind linking to a page that posts best talent sets to be used in PvP and PvE? (Curious if my instincts are right in what I currently use) Thanks!!!
The right ripper is main hand only. There are 2 left rippers with slightly different names. One is fast and one is 2.6 speed.

So the claws are a pretty legitimate option now. This is not like season 2 where there were superior weapons like rising tide and syphon right around the corner. I would not worry about replacing these weapons any time soon as sunwell is still 2-3 months away.

Last edited by berg : 11/27/07 at 1:14 PM.
#5280SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brum
Mental Quickness quirk

Discovered this before 2.3 so it may be fixed now. Fixed or not, it's not hugely important, and probably not even front page worthy. But for the sake of completeness:


Mental Quickness works as you'd expect it to on non-totem instants
Spell cost = untalented cost * (1-.02*points in mental quickness)

Name - Untalented cost => 3/3 MQ cost
wf weap - 190 => 178
es - 535 => 502
fs - 500 => 470
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Totemic Focus works as you'd expect, when you have 0 points in MQ:
Totem cost = untalented cost * (1-.05*points in TF

With 1+ points in MQ you use this equation:
Totem cost = untalented cost*(1-.05*points in totemic focus)*(1-(.02*points in mental quickness/(1-.05*points in totemic focus)))

With full MQ and TM, equation simplifies to:
Totem cost = untalented cost*.75*.92 = untalented cost*.69

Why two equations? If you have TF and any points in MQ, the effect of TF magnifies the effect of MQ. If you have 5/5 TF and 3/3 MQ you get .06/.75 = 8% off totems from MQ, instead of the expected 6%. In addition to the 25% from TF, for a total of 31%, when you'd expect 1-(.75*.94) = 29.5% off. This bug works out to be a whole extra 1.5% off totem costs in our favor! Woo. Equation derived from:

Name - Untalented cost => 5/5 TF cost => 5/5 TF + 3/3 MQ cost
goa - 310 => 232 => 213
soe - 300 => 225 => 207
wf - 325 => 243 => 224
fire elem - 680 => 510 => 469
#5281SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tsaeb
Originally Posted by Malan
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
I did the same last night, except I maintained it for the entire fight. Nearly full shock rotation, slowed once or twice because of threat. The only time I used SR was when my health dropped and HS/Pot were on cooldown. Don't recall using a mana pot at all.
#5282SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Tsaeb
I did the same last night, except I maintained it for the entire fight. Nearly full shock rotation, slowed once or twice because of threat. The only time I used SR was when my health dropped and HS/Pot were on cooldown. Don't recall using a mana pot at all.

You should SR near the end when damage / healing gets tough, to help your healers out.
#5283SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Garlik: (your question was pvp related, not enhance shaman theorycraft, but not the thread's dumbest question)
The first post points out that this isn't the greatest location for enhance shaman in pvp. There's too many different situations in PvP, grounding totem is the most awesome totem ever when you've got it out just as some AP+PoM+Pyroblast is flying at you. However, against akama... it's not a good totem.

With all that said, I'm saving some gear for arenas... I'll put 20agi on my weapons.... far too often I get to take only 4 swings at someone before they're dead or i'm completely CC'd. Mongoose enchant would do nearly nothing for me as it'd proc and i'm be in my 2nd cyclone wasing most of it's uptime, by the time I get out of that cyclone and catch up to the guy, mongoose proc is gone. That's my personal experience in arenas, others have different experiences where they are convinced that mongoose will allow them to kill their opponents faster and they're probably right about themselves. But that's not my experience, I'm taking the guaranteed increase to my ability to crit that comes from having 40more agility all the time. If there was a resilience or stam weapon enchant, I'd think about them.


Mano: (your question was playstyle related, not exactly on topic, but a good independent question)
I use Chaman2 and GRID. Both of these tell me who has totems on them.
Chaman2 as others have said, by default shows the number of people in your party benefiting from a totem buff. If the totem does not provide a buff icon, it doesn't help.

GRID you have to do some setup of your own and add in the names of the totem buffs. I did this and applied them to the corner icons of GRID. I made each corner a specific color and specific totem type... so earth totems are all brown color and in the lower right corner.... i hope i remembered that location correctly.

I heal a lot... mainly on trash fights. Having GRID out, i can count how many healers are dead. So in Hyjal if one of the tanks is sucking ass and letting a ghoul slaughter healers, I'll know it before it gets out on vent. I'll also know if 3 healers are dead, and the rest are out of range of us melee... I start chain-healing the melee, or healing waves on the feral.... So GRID offers a lot more awareness for me on trash than chaman2.
On a boss fight if 3 healers are dead and the boss isn't at 1 or 2%, it won't end pretty regardless of whether I heal or not. However, several times on archimonde, one clump gets airbursted, while the other two clumps are cut off by doomfires and myself + the melee decursing druid are the only ones healing the tank for upwards of 8 seconds. If I didn't have GRID showing the tank not getting healed, I'd have no clue to spam HWs on him. (p.s. we use the 3clumps method for ranged)

Psibeast: (your question was item related, you could have done the math yourself. You chose the lazy route, so I answered in a way that avoids much of the theorycrafting done in this thread to keep in practice with your avoidance of the theorycrafting. Your question wasn't dumb, just kind of lazy and dependent on factors that we can't theorycraft, such as whether your guild would allow you to bid on leather items at all)
The cataclysm tier5 4piece bonus is awesome. When should you change to the tier6 4piece bonus or should you get the non-set items?
To be honest I thought you could use Yo's sim to get a definitive answer to this question without needing our help. But I might be wrong and the sim isn't accurate enough anymore or possibly you don't have confidence in it. So now you have to have confidence in me....
Having 4 pieces of tier 6 is an obvious upgrade to keeping the tier 5 items that they'd replace. However, that's gonna take a hell of a lot of clearing. And at this point it's also extremely dependent on you getting to Illidan before the expansion. You can't get 4pieces of tier6 until you're actually doing attempts on Illidan. If you just got to BT/Hy, there is actually a chance that you'll not beat him before the expansion. I'm not trying to deride you, just saying that you're kind of on the hairy edge. So you'll have to factor that in as welll. It might be time to adopt the WDF (whatever drops first) philosophy in gearing. If a piece of gear drops that beats out the tier5 item in that slot, bid on it. If your guild is very cut-throat on DKP, hoard yours until a week comes when you are killing enough bosses that you could replace 2 or 3 of your tier5 items, then you bid like crazy on any item that is a reasonable replacement. Cross your fingers that you get to replace 2 or 3 tier 5 items in a one or two week period and you'll happily have beaten out the 4piece bonus.

This is how I had to determine what gear I bid on:
We have 4 rogues who can raid (only 3 come to a raid at a time). And Archimonde has still not dropped the midnight chestguard. With 4 rogues, the non-set leather items are in fierce competition. So Rapparee will likely never win the midnight chestguard and would spend massive dkp for other leather items. Rapp's 2nd choice for chests is the skyshatter, which is essentially guaranteed to drop from Illidan. Once I realized that this was my fate, I re-did my math on what the 4piece bonus of 70AP meant in regards to tier6 set beating out non-set items. The skyshatter legs, for me, are beaten out by the Bow-Stitched leggings. The other 3 pieces, when I factor in 1/4 of 70AP for each win as best-in-slot. So it's a no brainer for me at this point. I'm replacing my tier5 with bow-stitched leggings and the rest as my tier6 set. As soon as I had 2 pieces of skyshatter, the upgrade in stats was enough for me to break the tier5 4piece bonus.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/27/07 at 8:48 PM. Reason: added a response to Psibeast
#5284SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0refused
gladiator fists or maces/axes people, i want to get my weapons!! there didn't seem to be a straight response really. lol
#5285SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by refused
gladiator fists or maces/axes people, i want to get my weapons!! there didn't seem to be a straight response really. lol
You used a mitigating emoticon, but you still yelled at the community for not answering your stupid question.
Yes, your question is the stupidest possible question possible in this thread

But I'll answer it anyway:
HIGHEST DAMAGE: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Pummeler]
2nd highest damage: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]
3rd highest : [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper]
the chopper only has a max damage of 349, which is why wielding two cleavers does more damage.
4th highest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Left Ripper]
sorry but it looks like fist weapons are in last place according to my rankings.

Here's how to get the conclusion on your own, for future choices.

Use Yo's simulator and put in the stats for each weapon.
Run the simulator as many times as needed .. probably 3 times, once with fists, once with axes, once with maces.

That will give you concrete information as to which which of those identical weapons provides the most damage.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/27/07 at 8:40 PM.
#5286SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0refused
Originally Posted by Rapparee
You used a mitigating emoticon, but you still yelled at the community for not answering your stupid question.
Yes, your question is the stupidest possible question possible in this thread

But I'll answer it anyway: [Vengeful Gladiator's Pummeler]

Here's how to get the conclusion on your own, for future choices.

Use Yo's simulator and put in the stats for each weapon.
Run the simulator as many times as needed .. probably 3 times, once with fists, once with axes, once with maces.

That will give you concrete information as to which which of those identical weapons provides the most damage.

wow.... i see how this site got it's name. this is my first time posting here with my initial questions and for one say this is the stupidest possible question, is ... well, i think i'll be classy and not finish that statement. i'm just a woman playing the game for fun and not half as serious as a lot of people here when it comes to getting into the math of things because to be honest - i'm a creative right brained woman and although i have a college degree and always kicked ass in school, i still hate hate hate hate math. lol. i like how the initial poster broke things down for everyone to understand - even those like me who take the way-side when getting into the semantics of mechanic breakdown.

my emoticon was not mitigating and i was not "yelling" - i'm simply excited to get my weapons and the question wasn't fully answered. it was a fully lighthearted request that i followed with the emoticon to be sure no one took it any other way. imo, taking it any other way IS clearly stupid.

now that is out of the way -- in this formula you used, you said if i ran all three choices the maces would come out to provide the most damage. why run the axes AND maces. they are the same weapon, just different look. are you by any chance talking about different items? i expect you won't answer because my follow up question is just as "stupid," but i'll throw it out there anyways.

-a non-elitist jerk.



apparently you edited your post while i was making mine. so they are the same weapons, but still you have the same stated maces and axes as different rankings which i don't understand. call me stupid.
#5287SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Rapparee
You used a mitigating emoticon, but you still yelled at the community for not answering your stupid question.
Yes, your question is the stupidest possible question possible in this thread

But I'll answer it anyway:
HIGHEST DAMAGE: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Pummeler]
2nd highest damage: two of the [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]
3rd highest : [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper]
the chopper only has a max damage of 349, which is why wielding two cleavers does more damage.
4th highest: [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Left Ripper]
sorry but it looks like fist weapons are in last place according to my rankings.

Here's how to get the conclusion on your own, for future choices.

Use Yo's simulator and put in the stats for each weapon.
Run the simulator as many times as needed .. probably 3 times, once with fists, once with axes, once with maces.

That will give you concrete information as to which which of those identical weapons provides the most damage.
Either I'm stoned or you are. All of the weapons have the same damage range, dps, hit rating, crit rating, attack power, speed, and armor ignore.
#5288SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0refused
actually they are different weapons. the ones i was talking about are the ones available for honor today. the fists have a higher top end and lower base then the maces/axes (both the same weapon stats but have a higher base and lower top end damage stat).
#5289SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rapparee
Originally Posted by refused
they are the same weapon, just different look.
You quoted my response which indicated that the weapons are identical.
The weapons are very similar, but there is a key difference in game mechanics:
the mace is one hand.
One axe is one hand
One axe is off hand
One fist is main hand
One fist is off hand

Your question can be stated as follows:
Should I buy a clue with a $5 bill, five $1 bills, or 20 quarters?

The obvious answer is to buy the clue with the $5 bill. Sure it's identical in value to the other two choices, but it's easier to carry in my right hand or left hand and I like the looks of it.
#5290SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Visionnaire
I like the quarters for doing my laundry, though.

So, I pick the 20 quarters.
#5291SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Rapparee, for orc shaman axe beats others by a mile. Also, wowhead links for all do show all stats equal which would kinda hint for all other races it is personal preference. You do not need 2 one-hand weapon for freedom of choice really, so One-Hand + Off-Hand is economic way to go (2.6 speed OH).

By your example lets say you got to do 2 jobs. You got the joice of 2 tools for it -- one that is suitable for both jobs and other that is only suitable for second job. However that latter one is also considerably cheaper. Do you buy two tools suitable for both jobs or one of each tools?
#5292SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan
Its possible, I was doing it on Teron Gorefiend on Sunday night. It wasn't exactly a full shock rotation though, but I would refresh the totems, stormstrike and then shock at whatever opening I had between those three actions. I was able to maintain it for about 3/4 of the fight I'd say before the mana usage overtook what the SR timer was able to produce. That was with JoW up as well.
Judgement of Wisdom is huge. On PTR I ran ZA with a ret paladin who was keeping up JoW on everything, and I was able to keep up a full WF/GoA twist on the bear boss while shocking every 5 seconds. No interruptions, just SS-shock-WF-GoA-shock the whole fight. That's as 16/45/0, with no Totemic Focus, no Convection, no 2pc T6.

On live our guild doesn't use JoW much, and even as enh/resto I can barely manage WF/TA plus flame shock.

I'd imagine that's why half the people in this thread say totem twisting is unsustainable, and the other half say it's easy and everyone should do it. An enh shaman with JoW has almost twice as much mana to work with as one without.
#5293SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Tana Umaga
Well anyway there´s still the possibility of wearing 2 onehand axes, and someone said there is actually a 2.6 off-fist, so i see no point in wearing the faster one...

For me, i got to say i hate arenas soooo much that i am happy with my Fury. Now heading on to get Rage xD

edit:Well actually i see your 2nd damage option was 2x VG cleaver, second to 2x pummeler. As i said I hate arenas, so i better keep my trap shout xD

Last edited by Tana Umaga : 11/28/07 at 6:03 AM. Reason: review
#5294SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Ok this is curious - I was doing a speed KZ clear last night for badges and [Grips of Deftness] dropped. I grabbed them just to take a look later and see if they worth using because of the expertise. My guild leader was in the raid and linked [Gloves of the Searing Grip] which on the live servers had the exact same stats (which basically made the Grips of Deftness a hell of a lot better) but you'll notice that the tooltips on wowhead show them as different. Can someone else check on that in-game?

[e] nevermind, see below.

Last edited by Malan : 11/28/07 at 11:40 AM.
#5295SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Tristan
@Malan
Here's what they look like on wowarmory, I'd expect it to be accurate to in-game.

Grips of Deftness 
Binds when picked up
Hand
228 Armor
+29 Agility
+34 Stamina
Durability: 40 / 40
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 15
Equip: Increases attack power by 60.
Gloves of the Searing Grip 
Binds when picked up
Hand
252 Armor
+33 Agility
+37 Stamina
Durability: 40 / 40
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 18
Equip: Increases attack power by 66.

Last edited by Tristan : 11/28/07 at 11:32 AM.
#5296SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
[e] Ok it seems maybe I had some bugged out tooltips or something, the druid in my raid said they weren't the same stats when he saw them.

Last edited by Malan : 11/28/07 at 11:40 AM.
#5297SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Try nuking your itemcache.
Attached Images
deftness.png (122.1 KB, 22 views)
#5298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Surprisingly though the Grips of Deftness have very nice EP now, they're definitely worth picking up over the T4 gloves for anyone in that content, and they'd probably last you all the way into Hyjal. They're only like 25-30 EP short of my Hyjal gloves.
#5299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grundar
Hi 2nd post here.

At the risk of being called stupid or lazy I will say that maybe some of us that don't do math much are not stupid or lazy. Many of us are not computer confident. Any time we download we are scared of a virus or something going wrong. I have had a virus and I had to have my hard drive reformated. Not a good time, something I really want to avoid. We just don't do that much with computers in RL. We turn them on and hope they work. Messing with them like some people did with cars is not our thing. That does not mean we don't apprecaite those of you that do. We do. I have read each and every page on this thread. The work here staggers me. It has helped me more than I would have believed.

That said there is a LOT of contradictory information on weapons on this thread. Basic to enhance shaman is "slow is good" and many posts on triggering windfury with the OH and getting less damage. Posts on how slower harder hitting weapons are better but there is also (on page 1) an item saying MH/OH or OH/MH 'seem' to be the same damage despite weapon speed. Contradictory.

Is it possible blizzard, along with a WF cooldown bumped the % up for the next swing to keep the rate consistent? I dont know.

I do know that to get the inital arena weapons for honor is huge for many of us. Huge.

But the stats are not the same. The fist weapon does have a higher top end damage. Damage for enhanced shaman depends on that. I think this is a valid question.
#5300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0McGrady
Originally Posted by Rapparee
You quoted my response which indicated that the weapons are identical.
The weapons are very similar, but there is a key difference in game mechanics:
the mace is one hand.
One axe is one hand
One axe is off hand
One fist is main hand
One fist is off hand

Your question can be stated as follows:
Should I buy a clue with a $5 bill, five $1 bills, or 20 quarters?

The obvious answer is to buy the clue with the $5 bill. Sure it's identical in value to the other two choices, but it's easier to carry in my right hand or left hand and I like the looks of it.
You still don't make any sense, I don't see how axes or maces or even the offhand axe are any different from each other. Unless you are an Orc, the maces and axes (+offhand) are identical in everything except one-hand/off-hand. I don't see why anyone should be paying another 1.5k honor to get a one-hand axe that is identical to the off-hand for their 2nd weapon.
#5301SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Myul
Get 1 one handed Weapon and 1 offhand weapon, and if you can get an upgrade, simply drop the offhand only weapon.

Might only be interesting with different enchants like mungoose and executioner, but with 1850 personal rating reached on a save team and a 3 man or 5 man team leecher group, you should easily get enough arena points to effort anything you want.

It's only a preference of style, there's no difference in any terms of dps (except for orcs, for sure).

Edit:
For the poster above

Originally Posted by Mox
Someone in this thread worked out the EP value of the exalted Hyjal ring, but I can't seem to find the damn post...

Can anyone point me in the right direction.
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Last edited by Myul : 11/28/07 at 11:42 AM.
#5302SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Grundar
That said there is a LOT of contradictory information on weapons on this thread. Basic to enhance shaman is "slow is good" and many posts on triggering windfury with the OH and getting less damage. Posts on how slower harder hitting weapons are better but there is also (on page 1) an item saying MH/OH or OH/MH 'seem' to be the same damage despite weapon speed. Contradictory.
It's not contradictory - if 2.6/2.8 = 2.8/2.6, that doesn't mean that either one of those setups isn't better than 2.0/2.2 or 2.2/2.0.

Is it possible blizzard, along with a WF cooldown bumped the % up for the next swing to keep the rate consistent? I dont know.
No one knows the "why" of this situation, just the "what" of it. There are threads in the Blizzard forums, often started by Graxxon, which delve into the "why" of it, and those are usually threads that I enjoy watching for the car-wreck aspect.

I do know that to get the inital arena weapons for honor is huge for many of us. Huge.
You got that right! I used an honor weapon as my offhand for months, one of those blue 71.7 dps weapons, until I finally saved enough arena points from welfare teams for a S2 offhand.

But the stats are not the same. The fist weapon does have a higher top end damage. Damage for enhanced shaman depends on that. I think this is a valid question.
Unless there's something I'm missing, our dps is not driven by damage (as an input). That is, I can't think of a mechanic relevant to us that says "x% of your damaging attacks will provide y% bonus to your Attack Power" (or similar). Other classes *do* have abilities like this - Shadow Priests, for example. For this reason, all weapons of the same speed with the same average damage should be equal, all other things (racials, stat bonuses, sockets) remaining equal. Unless I've missed something, that is.
#5303SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Grundar
Hi 2nd post here.

but there is also (on page 1) an item saying MH/OH or OH/MH 'seem' to be the same damage despite weapon speed. Contradictory.

But the stats are not the same. The fist weapon does have a higher top end damage. Damage for enhanced shaman depends on that. I think this is a valid question.
Nobody cares what your post count is. When we do care to know, we can click your member profile to find out. (I'm not saying this to be a jerk, merely to point out that your post count is irrelevant and the mods don't like seeing it)

There is no contradiction about the weapons. The section you are referring to states that placing two weapons with equivelant dps but differing speeds (ie, a 2.6 w/ 100 DPS and a 2.8 with 100 DPS) in either hand results in the same overall DPS. That is not a contradiction at all.

[Vengeful Gladiator's Chopper] vs [Vengeful Gladiator's Left Render]
Hey look they're exactly the same, just like was posted.
#5304SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Sqweezle
Refused was referencing the Gladiator set from S1 (Grinding Honor, specifically referencing Gladiator without the S2/S3 qualifier)
The fist versus axe/mace question brought up isn't so much between DPS or weapon speed, but the damage range.

S1 Right ripper has a DPS of 91.3, speed of 2.6, and a damage range of 166-309
S1 Cleaver/Pummeler have DPS of 91.2, speed of 2.6, and a damage range of 189-285

Since WF damage is calculated off of the weapon damage, I think it boils down to: Take the weapon with the tighter damage range but lower max damage or the weapon with higher max damage but a wider damage range?

These numbers have been homogenized for newer gear, but there is minor difference in DPS and the big difference in the damage ranges for S1, I can see why there might be some confusion for folks not as steeped in the math as the regulars here. As there is little to no mention of the S1 weapons, only S2, it is not explicitly addressed in the OP.

As there is not a slow OH fist in S1, the fist set doesn't work for Enhancement shaman. That, and the fact the fist weapons are locked into a specific handedness where the cleaver/pummeler are ambidextrous in usage, a nice feature when considering upgrades and offering some flexibility.

Just thought that Refused was getting pummeled with with Vengeful weapons for a question about S1 gear that isn't as uniform as the new stuff. /shrug

As an aside, I've tried to use Yo's sim, but I get back very odd AEP/EP values. I get AP = 1, Strength = 2 and nothing else (Agi, etc) Don't know what that points to, but I've tried all sorts of values and it always comes back with just those 2 fields filled.

Last edited by Sqweezle : 11/28/07 at 1:12 PM.
#5305SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Ok, I will now explain in full detail why one hand is far superior to off hand or main hand. It boils down to mixed enchants. If you don't have a gold problem, you don't have a problem with choosing off hand vs. one hand.

It could happen that, Blizzard determines that enhancement shaman were under-represented during season 2. So they change frost brand to be a much nicer choice for arenas.
Now the poor shaman must find a 1.5 second speed weapon in order to use frostbrand to its fullest.
But wait.... now he's using frostbrand which means no windfury procs on that hand.. so he has to choose whether a lower ppm Executioner is worse or better than a lower ppm Mongoose.... one of these enchants will lose ppm due to no WF. That shaman comes back to this thread, as many shaman would and someone here proves that a lower ppm executioner is much preferred in arenas to a lower ppm mongoose, but it sucks for that shaman, he put mongoose on his off hand only weapon and executioner on his one handed. Now he has to re-enchant the one handed weapon to mongoose.

Or blizzard changes the mongoose or executioner proc, or proc mechanics in general such that there is a significant difference between using it off-hand or main-hand. Shaman with mixed enchants on their off hand only gladiator weapons will now pay the price of re-enchanting.

An actual Real Problem at present:
Or blizzard changes nothing, and we have the mechanic that entering melee range with auto attack on delays your off hand by half a swing. In pvp, the shaman in question is always in and out of melee range, due to the jack rabbit jumping night elves he's trying to kill. The shaman takes the time to parse his battleground goodness and finds out that nearly every time executioner proc'd on his off hand weapon... a half swing time later his main hand would hit, but then the target got out of melee range before the Offhand could land again. Sure enough the buff was worn off before the time he got anything more than a main hand attack. So the shaman comes to this forum and asks the theoretical question, "If you only got one main hand attack per proc to gain the bonus of mongoose or executioneer, would there be a difference in what proc you chose?"

It's an undeinable fact that your opposite hand will enjoy the lion's share of a proc buff in a pvp environment... it probably won't be the 100% lopsided situation I described above, but it will be tilted in favor of your opposite hand.

This is not a pvp theorycrafting thread at heart, so naturally this thread doesn't currently have math that says it's even a significant difference. We know it's not a significant difference in PvE, since the shaman will enjoy the full duration of the buff, but in pvp, you will not enjoy the full duration and the opposite hand of the buff will be favored. By how much it's favored and what sort of difference this makes is more than I'll be able to ascertain during lunch today.

Edit: I did make a mistake with Refused's post about S1 gear, but it's an even easier choice in that area... both fist weapons are the worst choice you can make due to the off hand being 1.5 speed. Once you figure that out, it goes right back to me griping about handedness being the only significant difference.
On the topic of damage range numbers: Lots of people probably still believe that highest top-end damage is best for pvp, because it does in fact allow the highest single damage per hit, but that thought process is mired in the days prior to normalization when people were comparing weapons of different speed with massively different damage ranges.

Last edited by Rapparee : 11/28/07 at 1:12 PM.
#5306SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0slant
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Now the poor shaman must find a 1.5 second speed weapon in order to use frostbrand to its fullest.
Frostbrand is PPM so it should be used on the slowest weapons possible to take advantage of stormstrike. The only shaman enchant optimal for fast weapons is flametongue.
#5307SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Sqweezle
As an aside, I've tried to use Yo's sim, but I get back very odd AEP/EP values. I get AP = 1, Strength = 2 and nothing else (Agi, etc) Don't know what that points to, but I've tried all sorts of values and it always comes back with just those 2 fields filled.
That sounds like you didn't click the box that actuallly says "compute AEP"
#5308SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aezoc
Or maybe you just didn't wait long enough. For me, the sim takes a good 6 minutes or so to run through 10k hours, and there's no real visual feedback that it's actually started running when you click the button.
#5309SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Emaze
@ Rapparee

So you're telling me theres no PvE differance between Main Hand only and Off Hand only weapons, just some crazy theory on One handed weapons being better cause u can switch mongoose or executioner if blizz changes game mechanics, right?
#5310SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Aezoc
Or maybe you just didn't wait long enough. For me, the sim takes a good 6 minutes or so to run through 10k hours, and there's no real visual feedback that it's actually started running when you click the button.
I have to mash the button untill I see firefox spike to 50% cpu (dual core 4tl in this case.) Sometimes I cant get it to run, sometimes I can.
#5311SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sqweezle
I'm going to vote for 'Didn't wait long enough'.
I really had no clue how long the sim took to run, so was just waiting until the screen updated with some of the other numbers, which was only 30-45 seconds. Will try again tonight at home, since I can not get the Java installed at work
#5312SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yes I've been hoping that Yo would add some sort of visual feedback for quite some time now. Ideally a progress bar that lets you know how many hours its computed already.
#5313SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I didn't see it mentioned anywhere and after searching the thread I didn't find it so I'll go ahead and post it.
There is a very nice ring from the timed event in ZA, which beats all but one ring in the game right now. Considering how easy it is to complete 3 timed bosses in ZA, I thought it was worth mentioning.

This is the ring in question: [Signet of Primal Wrath] vs [Stormrage Signet Ring].

With my AEP values (AP = 1, Str = 2.2, Agi = 2.0, Crit = 2.05, Hit Rating = 2.08, Haste = 1.89 and Armor Penetration = 0.43) that netted a value of 168.18 AEP vs 182.58 AEP on Stormrage Signet Ring (which is an Illidan drop!). In comparison, [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], [Ring of Deceitful Intent] and [Band of the Ranger-General] come out with 140.7, 139.52 and 150.84 AEP respectively.

With entry AEP values, the ring nets a 134.44 AEP value and with t5 AEP values we get 149.28 AEP. Still pretty damn solid for such an 'easy' to get ring. I felt it was worth mentioning, just because of how easy it is to get.
#5314SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai
I didn't see it mentioned anywhere and after searching the thread I didn't find it so I'll go ahead and post it.
There is a very nice ring from the timed event in ZA, which beats all but one ring in the game right now. Considering how easy it is to complete 3 timed bosses in ZA, I thought it was worth mentioning.

This is the ring in question: [Signet of Primal Wrath] vs [Stormrage Signet Ring].

With my AEP values (AP = 1, Str = 2.2, Agi = 2.0, Crit = 2.05, Hit Rating = 2.08, Haste = 1.89 and Armor Penetration = 0.43) that netted a value of 168.18 AEP vs 182.58 AEP on Stormrage Signet Ring (which is an Illidan drop!). In comparison, [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], [Ring of Deceitful Intent] and [Band of the Ranger-General] come out with 140.7, 139.52 and 150.84 AEP respectively.

With entry AEP values, the ring nets a 134.44 AEP value and with t5 AEP values we get 149.28 AEP. Still pretty damn solid for such an 'easy' to get ring. I felt it was worth mentioning, just because of how easy it is to get.
Firstly... as someone with that ring (and the Trinket from ZA... yes very happy shaman!) I'd like to say that is not 'easy' to get, it requires pretty much chain pulling and nuking of the first three bosses, for a karazhan running guild.. this isn't doable, for a mid T5 guild it's doable but still wouldn't be easy. A T6 farming guild can easily do it, which makes it perfect ilvl for comparison to the bloodboil rings etc. We've yet to complete the full 4-chest timed run though, last time ran out of time when lynx was on 10%.. so 10 seconds short of the timer, and this is with a raid of full T6 people.

It may seem easy to you, hell it does to me we've yet to wipe on any boss in ZA, but likes just like Illidan is 'easy' once you've killed him 10 times

Back on topic though, yeah it's a really nice ring. I'm using it + hyjal exalted one. Plan to get a stormrage signet instead of hyjal ring once they finally start dropping...

*edit - Blizzard specifically said they tailored the timed run rewards for T6 level raiders, to add challenge (and reward) to the instance, can't find the blue post though.
#5315SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Hm, it depends in which order you do it. Last week I remember doing a clear (3/4 timed, the last one is quite hard you're right about that) and that was with alts and just 3/10 people being in tier 6, we had 7 or so 8 minutes left after #3. Plus someone respeccing to heal us. I'd certainly say it's "easy" if you go Eagle -> Bear -> Lynx (or Bear -> Eagle -> Lynx). Remember the chest's loot is determined from what # boss you just killed, not the boss itself.

But yeah, maybe my vision is a bit blurred by the fact it seems so easy with tier 6 ^^. Just wanted to point the ring out.
#5316SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai
Hm, it depends in which order you do it. Last week I remember doing a clear (3/4 timed, the last one is quite hard you're right about that) and that was with alts and just 3/10 people being in tier 6, we had 7 or so 8 minutes left after #3. Plus someone respeccing to heal us. I'd certainly say it's "easy" if you go Eagle -> Bear -> Lynx (or Bear -> Eagle -> Lynx). Remember the chest's loot is determined from what # boss you just killed, not the boss itself.

But yeah, maybe my vision is a bit blurred by the fact it seems so easy with tier 6 ^^. Just wanted to point the ring out.
Have to remember even though they are alts, they are alts of people who've cleared all content (I assume) and thus have the level of player ability/co-ordination required for T6. Gear isn't everything... or so they say
#5317SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
I have calculated some ap->spell damage->dps->ep coeffiecent and how its changes others stats values. I know that Rob have doing this earlier but he didnt calculated searing totem. Debuffs assumed coe(not talented), misery and imp. scorch. I assume nature's guidance and 5% spell crit(1.025multiplier.

1ap = 0.3 spell damage
How much dps this adds to these spells assuming perfect rotation.

Flame shock: 0.3 * ( (0.15 + 0.52) / 12) * 0.86 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.025 = 0.0107326...

Earth shock: 0.3 * (0.4286 / 12) * .86 * 1.05 * 1.025 = 0.0099173...

Searing totem: 0.3 * (0.17 / 2.5) * 0.86 * 1.05 * 1.15 * 1.1 * 1.025 = 0.0233027...

Now I have to assume how good/tight/perfect is raiding shaman rotation.
searing 95% uptime . flame shock 80%(every 15s). earth shock 80%(every 15s)
I feel those are pretty high estimates.

Fs * upTime + Es * upTime + St * upTime
0.008586 + 0.0079336 + 0.0218756 = 0.383952dps
and 1dps is around 4ep
0.383952dps = 0.1535808ep

and that means 1ap is 1.1535808ep
becouse 1ap is allways 1ep we have to normalize all values by dividing those ~1.15 or multiply 0.867 (1 / 1.15..)

Feel free correct me if i have done some mistakes.
#5318SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Originally Posted by Illundai
This is the ring in question: [Signet of Primal Wrath] vs [Stormrage Signet Ring].

With my AEP values (AP = 1, Str = 2.2, Agi = 2.0, Crit = 2.05, Hit Rating = 2.08, Haste = 1.89 and Armor Penetration = 0.43) that netted a value of 168.18 AEP vs 182.58 AEP on Stormrage Signet Ring (which is an Illidan drop!).
I haven't been diligently reading this thread like I used to, but is .43 an average high end raid EP for ArP? I remember this value being around .28, but increasing depending on the amount of ArP you already have.
#5319SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
The sim shows Armor Penetration becoming ever more important the higher your other stats seem to get. Late T5 and early T6 it approaches 0.33 and seems to shoot up from there.
#5320SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chaotic.XD
Hello dear jerks

I've been reading through this thread for some time, and learned quite alot about the class i play.

A few questions still plaque my mind, i've been searching alot for the AEP of the t5 set bonus. On page 101 it was suggested that it was 115.91 AEP. So i was wondetring if anyone can confirm this number so i can decide to ditch 4 pieces of gear to replace them with t5's to see if it will currently increase or decrease my dps.

Another ting is the following, i'm using [Dragonstrike] in my MH and [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] in my offhand. I havent found the mention of this weapon too much, but would it be worth to take [Rod of the Sun King] for my offhand, despite the cries "warr/rogueweapon", the lack of useful stats, but to get the same speed and higher top end damage and base dps then my current one.

Cheers.
#5321SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
5% haste = 15.76*5

78.8*yourhastevalue = what it's worth

Run the sim a few times for the weapons, it's incredibly useful and should give you fairly accurate results given ideal circumstances.
#5322SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krish
Originally Posted by Chaotic.XD
A few questions still plaque my mind, i've been searching alot for the AEP of the t5 set bonus. On page 101 it was suggested that it was 115.91 AEP. So i was wondetring if anyone can confirm this number so i can decide to ditch 4 pieces of gear to replace them with t5's to see if it will currently increase or decrease my dps.
The way that I had calculated the value of that set bonus was to multiply my value for haste (~2 EP at the time) by the amount needed to achieve 5% (15.7), and then multiply it by my flurry uptime (83% at the time). For me, I remember the bonus being worth about 110 EP. It was such a worthwhile bonus that I had to pick up several good BT/Hyjal items (Midnight Chesguard, Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, and Bow-stitched Leggings) before it was worth breaking up the set. I just took the best single-piece upgrade that I had (the legs at the time) and kept 4 pieces of T5. It was an amazing bonus. If only the bonuses on T6 were that good...
#5323SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Krish
Originally Posted by rava
5% haste = 15.76*5

78.8*yourhastevalue = what it's worth

Run the sim a few times for the weapons, it's incredibly useful and should give you fairly accurate results given ideal circumstances.
Don't forget to multiply that by your flurry uptime % (around 84% with 30% crit rate and double mongoose).
#5324SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0anvilkicker
Shammy Stat goals per Raid Level

Hello all,

I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.

Something like:

Unbuffed Kara ready:
AP 1200
Crit 25%
.
.

Unbuffed SSC/TK ready:
AT 1700
Crit 27%
Hit Rating 120

Any help is much appreciated guys!
#5325SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sinmul
Originally Posted by Chaotic.XD
Another ting is the following, i'm using [Dragonstrike] in my MH and [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler] in my offhand. I havent found the mention of this weapon too much, but would it be worth to take [Rod of the Sun King] for my offhand, despite the cries "warr/rogueweapon", the lack of useful stats, but to get the same speed and higher top end damage and base dps then my current one.

Cheers.
If your guild can down Kael with some regularity that you're considering the [Rod of the Sun King] why not let that item go to Rogues/Warriors and you get [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] both of which drop of cake bosses in BT. If the Rod is going to be sharded, then sure, it's a DPS increase over your Pummeler. If I were you, I'd just wait for Rising Tide or the Nathrezim ... both of which has dropped for my guilds Shaman in the last couple nights.

-sin
#5326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Sinmul
If your guild can down Kael with some regularity that you're considering the [Rod of the Sun King] why not let that item go to Rogues/Warriors and you get [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] both of which drop of cake bosses in BT. If the Rod is going to be sharded, then sure, it's a DPS increase over your Pummeler. If I were you, I'd just wait for Rising Tide or the Nathrezim ... both of which has dropped for my guilds Shaman in the last couple nights.

-sin
And my friends guild has 3 rogues with full Warglaive sets, and others with none.. you might never see a Syphon or RT in your life it's all about the drop rates!
#5327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by anvilkicker
I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.
The problem with stat goals is there is no line to draw. If the EP for your gear indicates that STR is worth 2 EP, and AGI 1.7, then that is all you need to evaluate two pieces of gear. Replacing a theoretical green of 20 STR (40 EP) with one with 24 AGI (40.8 EP) would be, over time, an upgrade, even if it dropped you below some imaginary line.

Weapons play a very important a role in your overall DPS. For a while I had guildies with lower AP and crit who put out comparable dps due to better weapons. Good news here is you can be dual wielding 91.1 weapons after a couple hours of AV (no matter how bad you are).

A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 11/30/07 at 6:25 PM. Reason: Fixed the direction on the math
#5328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by anvilkicker
Hello all,

I am trying to get a handle on the Enh Shammy and am loving it so far. I think what would help me now is some sort of unbuffed stat goals. As all the best AEP gear seems to be Agil from Rogue/Hunter gear pools. I.E. I need more help trying to see where to draw the line for like str/AP vs Agil AEP.

Something like:

Unbuffed Kara ready:
AP 1200
Crit 25%

Unbuffed SSC/TK ready:
AT 1700
Crit 27%
Hit Rating 120

Any help is much appreciated guys!
You wont hit 1700 AP/27% crit at entry level SSC/TK... The best way to balance your stats is aim to get your crit upto like 30% (at this point you should easily have 1400+ AP) and then get gear that increases your AP but doesn't decrease your crit, altho you didnt say what you currently raid.
#5329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.
Is that auto attack dps with 1 wep? To kill gruul you need ALOT more than 442 dps per person.
#5330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kombinat
Originally Posted by Mox
Is that auto attack dps with 1 wep? To kill gruul you need ALOT more than 442 dps per person.
Gruul has 3.415 million hp.

Divide by 16, gives 213,473.5

8 minutes is 480 seconds, so divide by 480 to give 444.6 dps.

If you'd like to retract your comment, feel free to do so.
#5331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I want to see you do full dps to gruul 100% time. Furtheron 8 minutes is 16 growths -- if your dps is that bad i doubt tanks can survive that long.
#5332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0anvilkicker
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
The problem with stat goals is there is no line to draw. If the EP for your gear indicates that STR is worth 2 EP, and AGI 1.7, then that is all you need to evaluate two pieces of gear. Replacing a theoretical green of 20 STR (40 EP) with one with 24 AGI (40.8 EP) ...

...
A good metric might be your unbuffed DPS while farming level 70+ non-elite mobs (say, the demons in Blade's Edge). I think I was about 350dps while farming when I first went to Karazhan. For a 16-dps raid to bring down Gruul in 8 minutes with no deaths will take an average of 442 dps per person.


DPS, AEP, AP/STR/Crit all good, just some valid standard is what I'm after! THanks for some metrics to use!

My guild is currently doing Kara, ZA, Gruul, and Lurker.

eh, i need to get recount or something better at monitoring Damage Done and DPS!

Thanks again!
#5333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by Kombinat
Gruul has 3.415 million hp.

Divide by 16, gives 213,473.5

8 minutes is 480 seconds, so divide by 480 to give 444.6 dps.

If you'd like to retract your comment, feel free to do so.
I'd like to see anyone who actually does 444.6 dps at lvl 70, I was doing more than that at lvl 60.

Furthermore, as pointed out, 8 minutes is stupidly long time to kill gruul and will almost certainly result in tank death(s). Most guilds will kill gruul in 8-10 growths, therefor aiming to do a minimum dps of "444.6" is the most retarded way ever to kill a boss and shouldn't be posted as it's not helpful at all.

Last edited by Mox : 12/01/07 at 7:54 AM.
#5334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
8-10 growths
We'r going way offtopic here, but back when we killed gruul, we considered 15 growths to be pretty damn good for a first kill. (this was before everyone and their alts had arena weapons, kara items were buffed etc)
#5335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by vorda
We'r going way offtopic here, but back when we killed gruul, we considered 15 growths to be pretty damn good for a first kill. (this was before everyone and their alts had arena weapons, kara items were buffed etc)
Yes, I agree. Back when I first killed him we took around 15 growths, but this was months and months ago before he had been nerfed. I was purely stating that no one should walk into a fight with the idea of doing the minimum dps required, everyone should be doing 100% dps which is alot more than 444.6.

Last edited by Mox : 12/01/07 at 8:11 AM.
#5336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?
#5337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Originally Posted by Malan
Hey how about we stop talking about Gruul eh?
But hes so squishy and cute, Malan :P
#5338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Foxx2405
I have a question here...

A few days ago my guild was clearing some bosses in SSC and usually im in a kinda default group of a fury warrior (DW), 1-2 combat sword rogues and 1-2 bm hunters...

In such cases i just use windfury totem, no big deal there....

This time though the group setup was different....

We had 1 fury warrior, 1 feral druid, 2 BM hunters and me as enh shaman

Now im logically following the advise this site gives, because it thrives on some excelent theorycrafting, which im not unfamiliair with...
So in first case i was putting down the windfury totem for the warrior...

However the feral druid, who also has a shaman alt, and knows a lot of the theorycrafting was kinda supprised that GoA in such a situation wasnt better...

Basically only the warrior benefitted from WF totem...
Whereas GoA totem was beneficial for: The warrior (crit), me (crit), the feral druid (crit + ap) and the BM hunters (crit + AP) and in a certain way the hunters pets too...
So we have 5 people + 2 pets benefitting from GoA and only 1 from windfury... you could say 6 times as much

I thought he had a solid point... i know WF totem adds a lot of dps for the warrior, but is it so much that it benefits "6 times as much" as GoA does ?

I run into more of these situations where i think that the choice between the 2 is hard...
1-2 BM hunters nearly always run with the raids and benefit from my totems, and sometimes we have a combat dagger rogue so you get groups like:

Fury warrior
Enh Shaman
Dagger rogue
BM hunter
BM hunter

------

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?
#5339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Foxx2405
Fury warrior
Enh Shaman
Dagger rogue
BM hunter
BM hunter

------

I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?
I think this is more a problem with your group setup. If you have 2 BM hunters, you're best building a Shadow priest/resto shaman/feral druid/2xhunter group and then building a warrior/rogue group around your enhance shaman. We're not seeing what other members you're bringing in order to build a group or 2 that maximizes the benefit of windfury.
#5340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.

And on this topic
First of all why don´t you use both?
So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ...
I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA.
In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure.

Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^
#5341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
Has anyone done the math in regards to Stonebreaker Totem and its cooldown?

Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength?

What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better?
#5342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

10s internal CD.

And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread:
"Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown."

Did you relly read through it?
#5343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Rhagok
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack?
Yes, it stacks.
Originally Posted by Foxx2405
I was just wondering what people's look on this is... is the "Warrior means WF totem" rule a must for all situation or are these "extremes" an exception ?
You're looking at an extreme which is an exception, yes. In this case, assuming you are constrained to not twisting, you should drop GoA. But swap one of those hunters for a rogue and I'd have said to drop WF. Rhetorical question: were there no rogues on your raid, or was your group setup just really bad?
Originally Posted by Myul
Did you relly read through it?
I'll turn this back around at you and ask if you really read through the post you're responding to. You didn't link him anything that addresses his actual question.
Originally Posted by Patonus
Is it better to spam shocks every 6 sec cooldown or is it better dps to wait for the 10 sec cooldown to occur to refresh the Elemental Strength?

What I've done lately is spam shocks until I get the proc. Then, I wait the 10 secs before I shock again so I don't have to wait 12 secs instead. Or is this a common sense question and shocking every cooldown is better?
IMO, this doesn't lend itself that well to a mathematical calculation; it would be better to play-test both scenarios. Nevertheless, here's a shot at it.

If you assume 35% uptime on the buff, you have a 35% chance of waiting 10 seconds instead of 6 seconds to shock. Let's use 1/3 uptime to make our math really easy: instead of shocking 3 times in 3*6 = 18 seconds, you shock 3 times in 2*6+10 = 22 seconds. So your shock DPS drops proportionately, to 18/22 of the original DPS, or 82%.

The benefit you gain is that you take your uptime from that 35% number to ~50%. Instead of 38.5 EP, it's worth 55 EP. A ballpark number might say that you can get about 1 DPS from 4 AP, so that 16.5 EP difference is worth 4 DPS. Then if 18% of your shock DPS was more than 4 DPS, you did worse by waiting; i.e. if your shock DPS was greater than 22.2, you did worse by waiting. I can be wrong on the 4 AP->1 DPS conversion by a factor of 4 (and I don't find it at all likely that 1 AP will give you 1 DPS) and your shock DPS would still only have to be a bit under 100.

That makes it pretty clear to me that if mana's no concern, don't wait for the Stonebreaker Totem cooldown to run out -- just shock when your shock cooldown is up.

Last edited by Rob : 12/01/07 at 8:20 PM.
#5344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.
#5345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
Originally Posted by Myul
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

Uptime is lower then might expected. Around 35% on average, resulting in ~ 35 EP.

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

10s internal CD.

And last but not least, from the Post #1 in this thread:
"Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown."

Did you relly read through it?
Speaking of really reading through it, you obviously didn't read what I was asking at all.

Rob on the other hand, understood what I was asking and answered my question. Thanks Rob!
#5346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
Originally Posted by Xoya
What about in a situation where you are totem twisting, so you generally only shock once every 10 seconds, right on cooldown? Generally the totem buff has not fallen off at that point.
I would say yes, just wait for that cooldown.

I have been able to Totem Twist and still spam shocks more often than once every Twist rotation.

WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist.

It's when you do WF - GoA - SS - FS where you can't do another shock or the WF buff will expire due to GCD.
#5347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
Originally Posted by Patonus
WF - GoA - FS - SS - ES and repeat. Eventually the shocks catch up to the twisting cooldown and you either have to twist early or hold the shock till you are finished with the twist.
Maybe I just need to rework my twisting macros, then. Currently I do SS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, repeat. I've been trying to work flame shock in there, so SS -> FS -> WF -> GOA -> ES, but it can be annoying remembering which one to use. Maybe I should just make a castsequence for FS -> ES. Hmm. Yes, time to go do that!
#5348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Foxx2405
Originally Posted by Rhagok
I´m not totally sure about this, but does the BM Buff really stack? I mean, why don´t you just split the BM Hunters and give your Caster DPS another nice Dmg boost. This would definitely increase your DPS further besides the discussion about which Totem to put down.

And on this topic
First of all why don´t you use both?
So if you are not fond of Twisting, or you can´t / don´t like to do it, whatever reason ...
I would in your No. 1 scenario in which anyone but the Warrior would benefit from GoA more then from WF use GoA.
In scenario 2 considering the Rogue ... I´m not sure.

Anyway, get your BM Hunters on different teams and go get some decent melee dps so you don´t come into really strange Situations like that ^
Ok...

First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really

We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions

-----

On totem twisting, yes ive used that for a long time, and at a certain moment it payed off really...

But i found that for one it screws up with shock rotation, and on top there are certain situations where im on special duties, either purging or interrupting where i really cant use the twisting methode, so i have to pick 1 out of the 2 totems...

I guess ill recreate my totem twist macro again for those situations where i dont need to do such thing (i lost all my macros in a pc crash so in the example i was mentioning i didnt have my totem twist macro at hand
#5349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
cerberos
True or false? Some myths need answers...

Hello all,

First of all gratz to this forum, as its a valuable vault of information World of Warcraft have many myths that users transfer them from realm to realm, so with your help, lets have some final answers

The following is PvE Specced questions

01) Enh Shaman needs slow weapons. Ench Shaman with fast weapons, doesnt know to play at all. (true/false)
02) Enh Shaman best relic is Astral Winds (true/false)
03) Enh Shaman best relic is Stonebreaker's Totem (from Badges) (true/false)
04) Enh Shaman must have at least 200 Hit Rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
05) Enh Shaman must have 150 max hit rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
06) Enh Shaman doesnt need ap gems. He must have instead strength gems equipped (true/false)
07) Enh Shaman doest need much ap. After 1600-1700, is useless (true/false)
08) Enh Shaman doesnt need much Critical Rating. After 24-25% is useless (true/false)
09) Enh Shaman must play always with Strength Totem, Agility if he have Drood on the party else Wf for the rogues / tanks. (true/false)
10) Enh Shaman must enchant on weapon is +20Strength. Mongoose is useless for him (true/false)
11) Enh Shaman must enchants are Executioner + Mongoose (true/false)
12) Enh Shaman to be best equipped, must have equipment from other classes, like rogues for example. With only mail, Enh shaman cant do serious damage (true/false)

Those were the biggest myths (?) i have heared till now Maybe some of them are true, some are false Just True / False, from someone who knows what he does

Sorry that all are for Enh shaman, i dont have knowledge for other specs

Last edited by cerberos : 12/02/07 at 5:16 PM.
#5350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
1) True for the first part, not necessarily true for the second part.
2) False
3) True
4) False
5) False
6) True
7) False
8) False
9) False
10) False
11) True
12) True for the first part, false for the second part.
#5351SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kyuki
Try read the op..
#5352SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Starsprophet
Hello all quick question,


I help my shaman friend theory craft to figure out the best gear possible for him. I have been using yo's simulator all morning to try to figure out where to go from his stat level currently. He is in a BT guild that downs illiden every week and have most of his gear from there.

Here is his armory
The World of Warcraft Armory
This might show up as pvp gear so we aware of that

The numbers we have input into the simulator have been basically an assumed average, but we feel they are fairly close to what they are generally at. We are doing these calculations based on being 100% raid buffed, because for us soloing dost matter. The stats are as follows

2100 AP
43% Crit (Druid and Ret pally buff may make this higher)
14.83% Hit
4.31% Haste
83 Armor Pen
1.88 hasted weapon speed for both weps


When i put these stats into the simulator and run a test to 10000 hours of hack and slash it appears that the AEP for Hit and Haste are actually higher than that of Crit and Agi at this point in his gear spectrum. Is this actually possible?

Thanks for all the help and answers,

Stars & Blazin!

Last edited by Starsprophet : 12/02/07 at 4:32 PM.
#5353SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by cerberos
Hello all,

First of all gratz to this forum, as its a valuable vault of information World of Warcraft have many myths that users transfer them from realm to realm, so with your help, lets have some final answers

The following is PvE Specced questions

01) Ench Shaman needs slow weapons. Ench Shaman with fast weapons, doesnt know to play at all. (true/false)
02) Ench Shaman best relic is Astral Winds (true/false)
03) Ench Shaman best relic is Stonebreaker's Totem (from Badges) (true/false)
04) Ench Shaman must have at least 200 Hit Rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
05) Ench Shaman must have 150 max hit rating, so he can produce serious damage (true/false)
06) Ench Shaman doesnt need ap gems. He must have instead strength gems equipped (true/false)
07) Ench Shaman doest need much ap. After 1600-1700, is useless (true/false)
08) Ench Shaman doesnt need much Critical Rating. After 24-25% is useless (true/false)
09) Ench Shaman must play always with Strength Totem, Agility if he have Drood on the party else Wf for the rogues / tanks. (true/false)
10) Ench Shaman must enchant on weapon is +20Strength. Mongoose is useless for him (true/false)
11) Ench Shaman must enchants are Executioner + Mongoose (true/false)
12) Ench Shaman to be best equipped, must have equipment from other classes, like rogues for example. With only mail, Ench shaman cant do serious damage (true/false)

Those were the biggest myths (?) i have heared till now Maybe some of them are true, some are false Just True / False, from someone who knows what he does

Sorry that all are for Ench shaman, i dont have knowledge for other specs
What the hell is an Ench shaman? Enhancement, say it with me. There is a consonant and a vowel before the "C".
#5354SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Starsprophet
Hello all quick question,


I help my shaman friend theory craft to figure out the best gear possible for him. I have been using yo's simulator all morning to try to figure out where to go from his stat level currently. He is in a BT guild that downs illiden every week and have most of his gear from there.

Here is his armory
The World of Warcraft Armory
This might show up as pvp gear so we aware of that

The numbers we have input into the simulator have been basically an assumed average, but we feel they are fairly close to what they are generally at. We are doing these calculations based on being 100% raid buffed, because for us soloing dost matter. The stats are as follows

2100 AP
43% Crit (Druid and Ret pally buff may make this higher)
14.83% Hit
4.31% Haste
83 Armor Pen
1.88 hasted weapon speed for both weps


When i put these stats into the simulator and run a test to 10000 hours of hack and slash it appears that the AEP for Hit and Haste are actually higher than that of Crit and Agi at this point in his gear spectrum. Is this actually possible?

Thanks for all the help and answers,

Stars & Blazin!
A: There is a tab called "Buffs and Debuffs". The main window is for your unbuffed stats. One minor thing you have to do for kings, as noted in the FAQ: If you are expecting BoK - use fully buffed values with BoK and turn BoK on on Procs&Stuff tab. Your other stats should remain unbuffed and you should check them in the buffs tab, because chances are you've never clicked on that tab and you are double counting buffs. It is more than possible for hit and haste to outscaleCrit and agi(especially agi). As one stat improves the others become more valuable, I'm pretty sure this discussion has took place many times on this thread.

Btw- he has awful, awful weapons for being in his raiding position.
#5355SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
The increased value of haste and hit directly effects white damage. The best option he has for boosting damage, according to the sim, is to boost his white damage output. I think that the values would be different with weapons that better matched the gear level. Try inputting values for the S3 gladiator weapons, and see what the result is, just for kicks.
#5356SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0cerberos
Originally Posted by rava
What the hell is an Ench shaman? Enhancement, say it with me. There is a consonant and a vowel before the "C".
Productive comment. Ty for sharing the knowledge mate...
#5357SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by cerberos
Productive comment. Ty for sharing the knowledge mate...
Actually grammar and spelling are considered here, take a gander at the Banhammer forum for examples. ANYWAYS, back to talking about enhancement shamans! Most, if not all, of your questions are throughly covered in the first post. Learn it, live it, love it, tattoo it to the inside of your eyelids. But in the interest of being "productive":

1) True
2) False
3) True
4) False
5) False
6) True
7) False
8) False
9) False
10) False
11) Ehh... me personally I'd say True, I use Mongoose/Executioner.
12) False. There are better pieces for some slots that are leather, but only using mail is a perfectly fine option.

And don't apologize that it's only covering enhancement spec, that's all we care about in this thread.

Last edited by Krom[Fenris] : 12/02/07 at 5:24 PM.
#5358SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Im going to try to run a SSC 5/6 clear with Executioner/Mongoose and then next week with Dual Executioner and see how the numbers compare. I understand that 1 test isn't really a great sample size for attempts, but if the numbers are signficant enough while the crit percentage isn't that far off from paper doll stats after buff, then it is a decent test.
#5359SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Starsprophet
Originally Posted by rava
A: There is a tab called "Buffs and Debuffs". The main window is for your unbuffed stats. One minor thing you have to do for kings, as noted in the FAQ: If you are expecting BoK - use fully buffed values with BoK and turn BoK on on Procs&Stuff tab. Your other stats should remain unbuffed and you should check them in the buffs tab, because chances are you've never clicked on that tab and you are double counting buffs. It is more than possible for hit and haste to outscaleCrit and agi(especially agi). As one stat improves the others become more valuable, I'm pretty sure this discussion has took place many times on this thread.

Btw- he has awful, awful weapons for being in his raiding position.
thanks for the input for some reason i didn't think of this. Ill re-run the tests

As for the weapons, its not his fault that he dost have better. After about 8-10 clears on bt neither Rising Tide or Syphon of the Nathrezim have dropped. And BTW the season 2 axe is still not an awful wep at that level.
#5360SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I don´t see why people answer to this myth No.6 always with yes. This is only necessary if you will get BoK otherwise its completely equal Just no difference, so if you only have two Paladins nobody cares what Stones you use ...

Also 11) is not necessarily true, it simply depends on you individual EP values for either Armor Pen or Agi / Haste.
And 12) is False too, you can put out decent damage by using Mail on all slots. I mean even the Tier sets are not that bad (even T6 is sometimes usefull) ...

I don´t like those true/false situations anyway, because they break down something too far, it simply is not as easy as you described it. I personally would not sign anything but points 1 and 3 the rest in this final statements is imho plain wrong ...
#5361SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Rhagok
I don´t see why people answer to this myth No.6 always with yes. This is only necessary if you will get BoK otherwise its completely equal Just no difference, so if you only have two Paladins nobody cares what Stones you use ...
As -X% to stats debuffs essentially vanished in TBC (and never existed in raids in the first place), there is no situation where AP gems are better than STR gems, while there are situations where STR gems are better. The gems cost the same amount, as neither cut is rare and they use the same base gem. As the STR gem is strictly better than the AP gem, there is no reason to ever use the AP gem.
#5362SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Anybody in high end game facing the same dilemma as me ?

As I gain gear that will provide the optimum dps gains I am loosing base HP that will literally make me squish able in some encounters.

At the moment I am having as in "AP Gain Vs HP Loss".

Heres the unbuffed base stats if people are interested in knowing it :

34.85% Crit
1688 AP
8.81% hit (From Gear alone)
8091 Hp <== Thats lower then our mages & Shadow priests.

Only solution I find to it is to have some decent hp gear in the bags (Hai pvp gear) but other then that it's becoming harder & harder just to stay alive.
#5363SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Bragor
Anybody in high end game facing the same dilemma as me ?

As I gain gear that will provide the optimum dps gains I am loosing base HP that will literally make me squish able in some encounters.

At the moment I am having as in "AP Gain Vs HP Loss".

Heres the unbuffed base stats if people are interested in knowing it :

34.85% Crit
1688 AP
8.81% hit (From Gear alone)
8091 Hp <== Thats lower then our mages & Shadow priests.

Only solution I find to it is to have some decent hp gear in the bags (Hai pvp gear) but other then that it's becoming harder & harder just to stay alive.
I'm at 9309 base(thanks s3 weapons), but even without the 60 stam from those I'd be at 8709 so I can only guess with such low HP numbers you're running around with Supremus neck, Souls belt, and Syphons? There are plenty of alternatives to those slots like the trash neck, either mail or leather haste belt, money belt, and s3(or even s2) weapons.

I'm not entirely sure why you are worried about your HP at that number, the only real fights with any raid damage are Azgalor and Council where the damage can be heavily mitigated by fire resistance(Az) and just being aware of your surroundings(both).
#5364SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patrik
I'm not sure if it will help Mac users with running Yo's sim, but it sounded promising - Developer ports Java 6 JDK to OS X, Java nuts rejoice (sort of) .

To Bragor: picking up T6 helps a lot. I personally prefer wearing leather/non-set/stamina-less items, but I still get over 10k HP fully buffed and thus experience no real problems.
#5365SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Kaels
Sorry guys two questions if you'll bear with me.
First, anyone else notice that the 15% to 30% threat buff isn't terribly noticable? Previous to the threat change I was right under the tank on threat. Now I'm doing about the same and still using the 10k threat marker to keep it. Both with Salvation and raid buffed. The tank's/threat build hasn't changed and my gear hasn't changed so I'm a little confused.
Has anyone else run into this problem?

Second, However I've read over this 100 times and I just get get maximum dps. I read somewhere in the 200 thread pages about a /stop attack macro can anyone help explain this as the first page doesn't make any reference to it.

Last edited by Kaels : 12/03/07 at 4:36 AM.
#5366SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Groombah
Originally Posted by Kaels
Sorry guys two questions if you'll bear with me.
First, anyone else notice that the 15% to 30% threat buff isn't terribly noticable? Previous to the threat change I was right under the tank on threat. Now I'm doing about the same and still using the 10k threat marker to keep it. Both with Salvation and raid buffed. The tank's/threat build hasn't changed and my gear hasn't changed so I'm a little confused.
Has anyone else run into this problem?

Second, However I've read over this 100 times and I just get get maximum dps. I read somewhere in the 200 thread pages about a /stop attack macro can anyone help explain this as the first page doesn't make any reference to it.
Haven't really been threat capped since the patch if blessed with salvation. To me, it sounds like a tank issue. Compare the tps values they are putting out and try to compare them with similar geared raid tank tps output.

And can't really answer to your second question but saying that I am not using any kind of stop attack macro. I wonder if some do.
#5367SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Kaels
Sorry guys two questions if you'll bear with me.
First, anyone else notice that the 15% to 30% threat buff isn't terribly noticable? Previous to the threat change I was right under the tank on threat. Now I'm doing about the same and still using the 10k threat marker to keep it. Both with Salvation and raid buffed. The tank's/threat build hasn't changed and my gear hasn't changed so I'm a little confused.
Has anyone else run into this problem?

Second, However I've read over this 100 times and I just get get maximum dps. I read somewhere in the 200 thread pages about a /stop attack macro can anyone help explain this as the first page doesn't make any reference to it.
Are you talking about the macro you would use when you move in and out of melee range with the mob? I think those were supposed to be useful because you hit with your offhand first when coming back into melee range and thats a nono when you want WF procs off the main hand. Your t button by default is bound to "toggle attack" and I have simply bound my stormstrike button to:
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
After that I can simply click off the mob or hit t to stop attacking, whichever I feel like. /stopattack would be the opposite command to startattack though.
#5368SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kaels
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
Are you talking about the macro you would use when you move in and out of melee range with the mob? I think those were supposed to be useful because you hit with your offhand first when coming back into melee range and thats a nono when you want WF procs off the main hand. Your t button by default is bound to "toggle attack" and I have simply bound my stormstrike button to:
/startattack
/cast Stormstrike
After that I can simply click off the mob or hit t to stop attacking, whichever I feel like. /stopattack would be the opposite command to startattack though.

Cheers for that. I was trying to figure out what it is.
#5369SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Stupid question, but have you updated your addons that show you that threat? Also how often you shock and do you shock more often after patch? As shocks get no threat reduction from that talent.
#5370SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Abakus
Originally Posted by Kaels
Sorry guys two questions if you'll bear with me.
First, anyone else notice that the 15% to 30% threat buff isn't terribly noticable? Previous to the threat change I was right under the tank on threat. Now I'm doing about the same and still using the 10k threat marker to keep it. Both with Salvation and raid buffed. The tank's/threat build hasn't changed and my gear hasn't changed so I'm a little confused.
Has anyone else run into this problem?
I think when you stop your shocks (should be the case everytime you hit an aggro ceiling), you will notice a pretty significant decrease in aggro generation.
Our physical damage got the threat reduction, but the shocks increased in damage (and did not get the threat reduction).
Also, you might use shocks more frequently because of our better mana regeneration (cheaper shocks, awesome water shield) since 2.3, resulting in higher dps & tps.

Last edited by Abakus : 12/03/07 at 8:47 AM.
#5371SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Originally Posted by Kaels
Sorry guys two questions if you'll bear with me.
First, anyone else notice that the 15% to 30% threat buff isn't terribly noticable? Previous to the threat change I was right under the tank on threat. Now I'm doing about the same and still using the 10k threat marker to keep it. Both with Salvation and raid buffed. The tank's/threat build hasn't changed and my gear hasn't changed so I'm a little confused.
Has anyone else run into this problem?
It looks like you're logged out with raid buffs, but I don't see salvation. If you only get one blessing, make it salvation.
#5372SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Regardless of whether you notice it or not its still a 15% increase in the amount of threat you can safely generate.

Anecdotal evidence - Executioner is amazing in a raid environment if you like big numbers. I was seeing WF sum damage of over 5k when the buff was up.

Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
#5373SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kaels
Originally Posted by Malan
Regardless of whether you notice it or not its still a 15% increase in the amount of threat you can safely generate.

Anecdotal evidence - Executioner is amazing in a raid environment if you like big numbers. I was seeing WF sum damage of over 5k when the buff was up.
.
Thanks for the help. I always have salvation and try to kept the same shock rotations, I saw a very very slight difference but I guess it was just me.

I've been seeing the same numbers Malan on my WF crits when the proc is up.
#5374SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rodandwa
Anecdotal evidence - Executioner is amazing in a raid environment if you like big numbers. I was seeing WF sum damage of over 5k when the buff was up.
Speaking of big numbers and summing WF damage, does anyone know of a mod that will total up your attack + WF damage in the combat log? Ideally would do so for Stormstrike and Windfury. Something like:

You hit mob for 300.
Your Windfury Attack crits mob for 1000.
Your Windfury Attack hits mob for 500.
Your total attack hits mob for 1800.
#5375SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kletha
Originally Posted by Rodandwa
Speaking of big numbers and summing WF damage, does anyone know of a mod that will total up your attack + WF damage in the combat log? Something like:

You hit mob for 300.
Your Windfury Attack crits mob for 1000.
Your Windfury Attack hits mob for 500.
Your total attack hits mob for 1800.
WindfuryFU will do that for you. It also prints it on the screen.

Also, one thing that I've noticed is that if I'm not attacking and I start attacking with SS usually the OH procs WF if it procs from SS whereas if I first toggle attack and then immieatly after use SS then MH usually procs WF.

I have no evidence for this but it seems like this to me. Of course I do this in melee range in both cases and I'm not using the /startattack in SS macro.

Anyone noticed this or have any ideas? Will /startattack macro "solve" this for me? Or am I just paranoid?
#5376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
I believe someone had asked for a mod awhile back that would let them monitor their spell damage? Found this on WoWace forums today.
http://www.wowace.com/wiki/PowerDisplay
#5377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Helisstra
I have a little question, maybe someone else aldready ask it but i don't want to read all 216 pages and on the first post, the answer is not there...

Which enchant should we put on ring? 4 all stats or 2 weapon dmg?

Thx

Last edited by Helisstra : 12/03/07 at 12:36 PM.
#5378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Amazingly, using the "Search this thread" function in the upper right with the terms "enchant ring damage stats" yields many applicable results, including one that directly answers your question. I will decline linking it for you, "Feed a man a fish..." and all that jazz you know.
#5379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Thebeat
Malan are you going to try for some armor penetration gear to go along with the enchant or just sticking to BT/Hyjal gear? I'm thinking of getting the hibernation chest piece but I don't have a weapon that I want to put executioner on (hopefully that'll change soon since we just got into hyjal) and everyone seems to say that executioner gets better with some armor pen gear.
#5380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
I'd like to get some more Armor Penetration but all the gear I've looked at is numerically inferior to stuff without that stat. Most of the cool stuff with haste and Armor Penetration lack sockets for one thing.
#5381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
Syphon Eating Shadow debuffs

Got locks complaining Syphon is eating debuffs...apparantly its on Ej somewhere but I can't find it.

Anyone got any ideas or confirmation if its true?

Or are they dropping do you thing to the limit?

Thanks
#5382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Boro
Got locks complaining Syphon is eating debuffs...apparantly its on Ej somewhere but I can't find it.

Anyone got any ideas or confirmation if its true?

Or are they dropping do you thing to the limit?

Thanks
You know you can easily test this with a warlock, yourself, and a mob all in about 5 minutes or less, right?
#5383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Boro
Yes I know Malan but i am in Hyjal atm so just thought i would check :-) will let you know though
#5384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Syphon applies a buff to yourself only. It acts more like flurry than any of our other mechanics.

I am not sure I understand how it can be knocking off warlock debuffs. If there is any data to support this I would be curious to learn more.
#5385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
I'm sure he means that the warlocks are saying its eating the Improved ShadowBolt debuff. Not really knocking a debuff off, just eating a charge. Again, not hard to test though, even in the middle of Hyjal. Just have the warlock and you go off and make merry with a mob that nobody else is on for a few moments.
#5386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
I understand. In that case the drain is definitely shadow school so that seems very plausible.
#5387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
Originally Posted by Rodandwa
Speaking of big numbers and summing WF damage, does anyone know of a mod that will total up your attack + WF damage in the combat log? Ideally would do so for Stormstrike and Windfury. Something like:

You hit mob for 300.
Your Windfury Attack crits mob for 1000.
Your Windfury Attack hits mob for 500.
Your total attack hits mob for 1800.
There are a few addons that do this, Shaman Friend for one. But probably a few others as well.
#5388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
Originally Posted by Malan
Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
I always used 75 EP for the RED. I finally found the post that I got this number from: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I. Unfortunately, there's no math, just an estimate. As for comparisons sake, whether you assume 50 or 75 EP for RED, from worst to best based off of my EP values you're looking at Cyclone Helm (199 or 224 EP), Coif of the Jungle Stalker (238 EP), Grimgrin Faceguard (255 EP). Cataclysm Helm (257 or 282 EP).
#5389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I tested Syphon vs ISB a while back. It doesn't consume charges, or at least it didn't when I tested it a few weeks ago.
#5390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
That post is also just referring to the Enhance addon/model, so yah, not too helpful I'm afraid. What I'm trying to figure out is when 3 normal sockets beats 1 socket + Meta. I'm trying to figure out if some of the new ZA/Badge helms are worth taking over my T4 helm and not having much success in deciding.
#5391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Weem
I'm more or less in the same boat at the moment. Personally, I don't think I would replace my T4 with the Coif of the Jungle Stalker but I definitely would with Grimgrin Faceguard.
#5392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Originally Posted by Malan
I'd like to get some more Armor Penetration but all the gear I've looked at is numerically inferior to stuff without that stat. Most of the cool stuff with haste and Armor Penetration lack sockets for one thing.
The belt off the first boss in ZA (Bladeangel's Money Belt - Items - World of Warcraft) is pretty nice for Armor Pen, especially if you can get one of the blue agi/str heroic gems. The new PvP ring (Vindicator's Band of Triumph - Items - World of Warcraft) also has decent stats plus Armor Pen.

Aside from those two pieces, I don't think there's much out there that has Armor Pen and decent stats.

As far as the T4 helm vs the leather Zul'jin helm (Grimgrin Faceguard - Items - World of Warcraft), I'm seeing more DPS from the ZA helm. The Hex Lord mail helm is probably a better upgrade(Coif of the Jungle Stalker - Items - World of Warcraft). There's only a 13 ilevel difference between the ZA helms and T4, but it seems like the stats with gems more than make up for it in EP.
#5393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Shabadu
[Signet of Primal Wrath] is very very good once you're capable of taking down 3 bosses on the timer. A group with a solid AoE tank and some good AoE can easily get dragonhawk down with a few minutes to spare.
#5394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Shabadu
[Signet of Primal Wrath] is very very good once you're capable of taking down 3 bosses on the timer. A group with a solid AoE tank and some good AoE can easily get dragonhawk down with a few minutes to spare.
Yes, this ring rocks. Also got it a week ago. Was quiet suprised when we opened the chest. ^^

Speaking about macros, I use this one for twisting and shocking:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/castsequence reset=3/combat Stormstrike, Earth Shock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Water Shield, Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flame Shock
#5395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skiace
Originally Posted by Weem
I'm more or less in the same boat at the moment. Personally, I don't think I would replace my T4 with the Coif of the Jungle Stalker but I definitely would with Grimgrin Faceguard.
This is the decision I came to as well, although we are starting Vashj attempts this week so I'm tempted to just wait for T5.


Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
Yes, this ring rocks. Also got it a week ago. Was quiet suprised when we opened the chest. ^^

Speaking about macros, I use this one for twisting and shocking:

#showtooltip
/startattack
/castsequence reset=3/combat Stormstrike, Earth Shock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Water Shield, Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flame Shock
Forgive my ignorance, but if the reset=3, how do you ever get past the second spell in that macro with a 1.5sec global cooldown?
#5396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Skiace
This is the decision I came to as well, although we are starting Vashj attempts this week so I'm tempted to just wait for T5.


Forgive my ignorance, but if the reset=3, how do you ever get past the second spell in that macro with a 1.5sec global cooldown?
Every new button press resets the reset-timer. So it only resets, if you don't push the macro-button for 3 sec.
#5397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
More importantly, why are you constantly refreshing water shield? You *want* it to run out. If you keep refreshing it and are not being hit you never get the mana!
#5398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Malan
More importantly, why are you constantly refreshing water shield? You *want* it to run out. If you keep refreshing it and are not being hit you never get the mana!
This part is optional, but there are enough fights in BT, where Water shield is contantly triggered. With 2.3.2, you can always let it stay in the macro.
#5399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ecomix
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
#5400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan
That post is also just referring to the Enhance addon/model, so yah, not too helpful I'm afraid. What I'm trying to figure out is when 3 normal sockets beats 1 socket + Meta. I'm trying to figure out if some of the new ZA/Badge helms are worth taking over my T4 helm and not having much success in deciding.

My hunch would be no.

On my latest hyjal attempt crits made up 36% of my total dps.
meaning the 3% bonus crit damage made up 1.05% of my total dps, on top of which I'm getting 12 agil also out of the meta socket.
at my aep values 12 agil ~= 10 str
and 1.05% of my total dps on that fight was about 10dps
so the 1.05% of your total dps would have to be less than whatever you were putting in that third socket for the 3 socket to beat out the 1+meta.

However, you also have to take into account the difference between the ep of the two helms.

So, assuming you're socketing BT/MH gems, the 3s ep - meta ep > 1.05% of your totaldps - 10str

It should also be noted that I have about 30% unbuffed crit chance, and I've been stacking it every since I picked up the prism of inner calm. For example I've been using greater agility over 120ap flasks; while I lose some dps, the tps lost is even larger.

edit: changed aep to ep to compile with the latest convention

Last edited by tzenes : 12/04/07 at 12:32 AM.
#5401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan
That post is also just referring to the Enhance addon/model, so yah, not too helpful I'm afraid. What I'm trying to figure out is when 3 normal sockets beats 1 socket + Meta. I'm trying to figure out if some of the new ZA/Badge helms are worth taking over my T4 helm and not having much success in deciding.

My hunch would be no.

On my latest hyjal attempt crits made up 36% of my total dps.
meaning the 3% bonus crit damage made up 1.05% of my total dps, on top of which I'm getting 12 agil also out of the meta socket.
at my aep values 12 agil ~= 10 str
and 1.05% of my total dps on that fight was about 10dps
so the 1.05% of your total dps would have to be less than whatever you were putting in that third socket for the 3 socket to beat out the 1+meta.

However, you also have to take into account the difference between the ep of the two helms.

So, assuming you're socketing BT/MH gems, the 3s ep - meta ep > 1.05% of your totaldps - 10str

It should also be noted that I have about 30% unbuffed crit chance, and I've been stacking it every since I picked up the prism of inner calm. For example I've been using greater agility over 120ap flasks; while I lose some dps, the tps lost is even larger.

edit: changed aep to ep to compile with the latest convention

Last edited by tzenes : 12/04/07 at 1:32 AM.
#5402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Ecomix
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
#5403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Ecomix
In the OP it states that the Syphon, Dragonstrike, and Rising Tide are all fairly close to each other in terms of DPS.

My question is, what is the most desired/perfect combination? I have Dragonstrike currently and will get the Syphon/Tide whenever they drop, but I don't want to take something I won't use.

So basically

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?

EDIT- The proc from Dragonstrike is the only haste item I have currently and picking up a DST is not an option as my guild no longer runs Gruuls lair at all. Is the haste proc worth keeping it this late into the raiding game?
using 3.70 ep for the off hand (which is not accurate for Syphon)

Syphon has 370.74 ep
and
Rising Tide has 370.74 + 73.4 ep

Now the Syphon ep for off hand should actually be greater than 3.7
To be better than Rising Tide it would have to be 4.43 ep about a 20% increase.

Now I don't know what the ep is for a 2.8 speed off hand, but I would assume that it is less than 20% off of a 2.6 speed
#5404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ecomix
Originally Posted by rava
In the top right hand corner this a function called "Search this thread". This topic has been discussed a billion times and is easily searched. The best combination is a pair of s3 weapons, which I will go on a limb and say here in 2-3 weeks anyone that doesn't put crayons up their nose should be able to attain. My first week as elemental with s1 gear and a few team mates in similar situations were able to hit 1850 with a few nights of work.
Ugh, it's retarded that PVP weapons end up being the best weapons for PVE. Oh well...

I tried the search thing twice and couldn't find what I was looking for, probably just search-dumb.
#5405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0urotas
Originally Posted by Foxx2405
Ok...

First of all in this particular situation we didnt have rogues... We could move a hunter to a different group but that means we'd have to switch a mage / warlock back for it... Which seems to me to not be a super solution, and since the buff stacks, it doesnt matter really

We normally have a decent group setup so that its fairly clear, im just talking about these extreme situtions
I'd like to ask a few more things about the windfury vs grace of air in extreme group setups

In the example, we had a shaman, druid, warrior, BM hunter, BM hunter group and the question was whether it would be more beneficial to use grace of air or windfury. This was an odd raid setup with no rogues, and personally I'd rather put a hunter in a melee group, than a mage/warlock who'd be losing wrath of air and a shadow priest. Would I be correct to assume, that the old "if there's a warrior in the group, drop windfury" would be more accurate as "Drop windfury, if there's a warrior in the group and at least one other benefiting from it"? Or would windfury still generate more dps for the whole group in this situation too? I'm also interested in knowing what would be the correct totem to use for maximum raid dps in some of the more borderline situations. For example:

Shaman, sword rogue, sword rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter
Shaman, sword rogue, dagger rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter
Shaman, retri-paladin, rogue, druid/hunter, druid/hunter

Could anyone point me to any threads with some more detailed theorycrafting on the benefits of windfury and grace of air to different classes? I know grace of air adds 121 attack power and 4% crit to me as a feral druid, which according to the ToskksDPSGearMethod calculator would increase my theoretical dps by a bit over 50. However, I don't know how accurate this is, and I have nothing to compare it with.

A rogue or a hunter would gain 107 attack power and something like 2.4% critical chance from an enhancement shamans grace of air if I calculated it correctly. How big of a damage increase would this be compared to windfury on a rogue/warrior for example? I would appreciate if you could point me to the correct information source.
#5406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Without a doubt, drop Windfury if 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues > Feral Druids + Hunters.
Without a doubt, drop GoA if Feral Druids + Hunters > 2*Warriors + 2*Ret Paladins + Rogues.

This leaves the theoretical borderline case where the sides of the equation are equivalent: e.g. {rogue, rogue, hunter, hunter, enhancement shaman} or even the {warrior, feral, hunter, enhancement shaman, caster/healer} that might occur in a 10 man group. Either way, there frankly is no 100% definitive answer for this situation: it will depend on how well-geared and well-played the various classes are; and if the Warrior in your group is tanking, whether or not he would benefit more from threat/rage generation or avoidance.

Last edited by Rob : 12/04/07 at 5:56 AM.
#5407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Vulajin's math on WF vs GoA + Instant Poison for a combat sword rogue: Windfury Totem Change

His math shows about 60 DPS from GoA + IP, 80 from WF.

for me, I got about 35 DPS out of GoA last time I checked. That was in T5 gear but I think Vulajin's calculations are for an approximately T5-geared rogue.

A druid friend of mine ran the numbers through some druid spreadsheet or other and got 45 DPS in T5-ish gear for GoA.

I'd expect a T5 ret paladin to gain 150-200 DPS from WF. Not only does it straight-up give them 20% more white swings, but as I recall the extra swings give them 20% more judgement procs. I'd assume they'd gain about the same as enh shamans from GoA.

I've never seen real data on hunters, mut rogues, or warriors.

The problem is warriors. A warrior's DPS gain from WF is going to be hard to calculate because of rage generation, and I've never seen any reliable math on it. If I remember right though, GoA clocks in at under 30 DPS for a T5-geared warrior.
#5408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Jerem
Using Cheeky's excellent spreadsheet, on a 7700 AC level 73 Boss (I selected Morogrim, because this is usually the fight for which my WWS parses are the closest to my spreadsheet-simulated DPS) :

With standard raid (damage) buffs (BoK, imp. BoM, LotP, GotW, Scroll of AGI, AGI food, flask of relentless assault) for me, and for my cat pet (obviously, same buffs, minus the flask, and agi food replaced by STR food), my simulated DPS is :
Hunter : 1043.23
Pet : 475.8
= 1519.03
[my stats, with this setup, are 2307 AP, 34.63% crit, 100% hit]

If I add an improved GoA Totem and an improved SoE totem (benefits the pet's PA), the simulated DPS becomes :
Hunter : 1088.07
Pet : 541.04
= 1629.11
[my stats then are 2404 AP, 37.05% crit, 100% hit]

This is with a never-wearing-off hunter's mark, 5 Sunders and a Faerie Fire on the boss (I didn't factor in CoR).

The 1500 DPS number might be a little "over the top". I think the best I ever did on Morogrim (that means never being bubbled, and being extra lucky on crits, etc) was around 1200 (I probably forgot some obvious stuff in the spreadsheet's settings, but can't seem to find what).
I have a T5 (or equivalent) gear, and I'm BM-specced (41/20/00). I use a standard auto-steady rotation, and replace Steady Shot by Arcane- or Multi-shot whenever they're up (I consider mana a non-issue : our Paladins maintain JoW, and I use mana pots every cooldowns). I use trinkets, Bestial Wrath and Rapid Fire whenever they are up, as well as drums (Battle/War).

To fully evaluate the benefits of GoA for a BM hunter, you would have to consider that more AGI for the pet means more
crits, hence more FI uptime (I think my FI uptime is about 96 or 97% currently). That contributes to the added value of GoA for the group's DPS.

Hope it helps ...

Last edited by Jerem : 12/04/07 at 8:49 AM.
#5409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
[e] Wow I somehow missed all the posts between this and the one I replied to, this was at the guy asking about all the weapon combos.

I think you missed the other part of the OP where it says that RisingTide/Syphon is almost exactly identical to Syphon/RisingTide, and same for any other weapon combo. Its really not a big deal which hand you put which T6 weapon in.

Last edited by Malan : 12/04/07 at 1:27 PM.
#5410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Goldthorn
Originally Posted by Ecomix

DragonStrike/Syphon
DragonStrike/Rising Tide
Rising Tide/Syphon (Vice Versa)
Syphon/Syphon

What would you take if you could have any of the desired combinations?
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.

That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.

Last edited by Goldthorn : 12/06/07 at 10:30 AM.
#5411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Teran
Originally Posted by Goldthorn
I am currently using DragonStrike/Rising Tide for my raiding needs (that is until I get Syphon, maybe this week!). I also toyed with Rising Tide/Netherbane for awhile, just for the stats boost, but the haste proc seems to be more worth it.

That being said, as soon as I get Syphon, it seems 375 Blacksmithing was a waste of time and money lol! Maybe Blizz will add some new BS plans in the future that become worth holding on to BS. Here's hoping.
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
#5412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yuma
Originally Posted by Malan
Question - what value are people using for Meta Gem sockets in Pawn? I need a better way to compare a helm with RED to a helm with 3 normal sockets. My current Pawn string just gives meta gems like 50 EP or so but it results in some odd values.
To determine my weighting for the meta socket, I always assume that I'm going to socket a RED, and then take the value of my Yo! simulated APEP for agility adding 20 for the increased crit effect, which is what I believe the rogues chose as a value on another thread on these forums.

Last edited by Yuma : 12/04/07 at 2:30 PM.
#5413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
http://elitistjerks.com/566730-post300.html
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
#5414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by Teran
I invested into blacksmithing on that hope. Blizzard acted in such a way that I believed they would treat blacksmithing similarly to the arena, heroic badge, and honor point systems in that they would receive occasional updates. Now that items have caught up to the highest tier blacksmithing recipes we'll have to see if they add in upgraded options in the next content patch, perhaps something in the sunwell can unlock the fourth incarnation of our lovely hammer.
I would have to find it again, but I believe there was a post about the Tier 4 blacksmithing plans being available from The Sunwell. Don't take this for gospel truth, but it seems somewhat likely as the weapons available to us in Black Temple and through Season 3 make the money and time invested in our Blacksmith creations worthless. If I can find the post again I will link it.
#5415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
Like I've said, I repeatedly get 40%+ uptime with a single executioner enchant. 75% doesn't seem unreasonable at all with two of them.
#5416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Beowolf
@ Tornhoof:

I downloaded the latest version of your simulator today, and I also managed to get my hands on the Berzerkers Call from ZA. I was using DST and TT, but now I'm using DST and BC. According to the main article, BC is worth about 10 more EP than TT. However, with BC and DST equipped, your simulator is showing me LOSING 20 DPS. Is there an error with your calculation, or is the loss of hit and crit really affecting me that much? (I only have 13.75% hit, 1600 ap and 28% crit now). Just thought I'd check.

Also, is your simulator taking into account armor penetration? I'm up to 420 passive + executioner enchant now.
#5417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
Try using Yo!'s simulator.

And I believe it was 310 static armor penetration for executioner, something like that anyways, it was posted a few pages back.
#5418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
#5419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Difforgazm
Sorry if this is already known but a new site is working on building an Enhancement item database type thing.

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

just thought id point this out, as it seems like a fairly easy to use good site.
#5420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
No Flurry bug fix in 2.3.2:
Originally Posted by Blue Poster in Warrior boards
* The off-hand Whirlwind attack does not proc flurry when it crits.
* If you have one charge of flurry remaining and crit with that attack, flurry does not proc/refresh
Both bugs will be fixed in a patch after 2.3.2
#5421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I added a small section at the bottom of the post for raid leaders. Just some basic info on how to examine WWS and the Armory to decide if an Enhance shaman is up to snuff.
#5422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Malan
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
I did some math on it and found it to be worth ~313 armor penetration, assuming 36% uptime on the buff. I'll link the spreadsheet if I can find it later.
#5423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Original data on value of Str/AP vs. Agi/CR?

I have carefully read the entire OP, and the first 20 pages following. I do not think there are enough hours left in my life to read the entire thread. However, what I'm wondering seems to have been assumed (or demonstrated) before the first post. If anyone can point me to a good discussion of this I'd appreciate it.

My question is about the initial assumption that Str = 2EP, while Agi is = 1.8EP (give or take, and ignoring Kings). Here's a first cut at comparing the two.

Assume I do N% non-crit and C% crit hits. My total dps would be on average D * (N+2C), for some D (right?). WF, flurry, UR, and item procs will mean that D has multiple possible values during a fight, but overall it should average out to some number that is the same for crits and noncrits. (Maybe not entirely, due to +AP procs on crits, but I think it's very close anyway.) Since additional crits mean fewer noncrits, increasing crit chance by 1% (25 Agi) should increase your total dps by D (it goes up to D * ((N-1) + 2(C+1)) = D * (N+2C+1)).

The averaged "D" will be something close to your weapon dps plus your fully buffed AP, multiplied by the effect of flurry (say an avg. 25% for my toon, a little more or less depending on your crit rating, and see my closing caveat), multiplied by the effect of WF (an additional 36% less any inefficiencies in weapon speeds (?), plus an extra 475AP which I'll again leave out to simplify things), multiplied by (nearly) 10% for UR. I'm leaving out mongoose and other procs for now, and ignoring fights where you can't do constant damage, both because I think they have no impact, and because I want to keep this simple.

Let's also ignore the OH weapon entirely, since both AP and crits will be subject to the 50% reduction, and therefore it's immaterial to the analysis. Similarly, I'll ignore stormstrike. So if M = my main hand DPS, then for my toon this is my simplified non-crit dps:
D = (M + AP/14) * 1.25 * 1.36 * 1.10 = (M + AP/14) * 1.87

Now, recall that my overall DPS is D * (N+2C). This means that increasing my Agi by 25 (crit rate +1%) should directly increase my DPS by D. On the other hand, if I increase my Str by 25, the increase is:
(M + (AP + (2*Str))/14) * 1.87
------------------------------                     which reduces to
      (M + AP/14) * 1.87
14M + AP + 50
-------------
  14M + AP
With (for example) 90dps and 1500AP, the change is (1260+1500+50)/(1260+1500) = 2810/2760... which is a 1.8% benefit, and totally shocking to me... I thought the benefit would be much smaller when I started typing this. Probably my original mistake was not realizing that the various multipliers (adding up to *1.87) produced equal benefits to +crit and +AP. High M versus AP will reduce the relative benefit of Str, but now it looks like that would have to be unreasonably large to tip the balance in favor of crit.

Of course I've left out a lot of things... flurry uptime, UR uptime, add'l on-crit procs (if you have them), plus other things I've probably forgotten. These bring the equation closer to parity for Agi - but by how much? I have to believe someone else has already modeled this... which brings me back to my original question, can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?

Sorry for the long-winded post, it wound up producing unexpected results due to poorly-thought-out original assumptions. :-(

-W
#5424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Wundorn
can someone please tell me where the relative value of +Agi/CR versus +Str/AP was originally modeled correctly?
Strength is worth 2.2 because 1 Strength = 2 AP = 2.2 AP with Kings. 1 point of Agility was valued using simulation to determine the change in DPS from steps in agility vs the same steps in attack power.
#5425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Malan -- great info. I don't get the bit about "flasks vs elixirs" being a reason for big differences in damage; Relentless Assault has only 10 EP more than Major Agility but on my server costs ten times more. Any non-progression raid where I intend to wipe fewer than 10 times, I use Major Agi.

In my experience, dps time is also a big determining factor in damage fluctuation, possibly equaling group makeup. Shamans who are talented runners, knowing exactly how far to run to escape some effect and when to run back, are going to put out more damage simply because they put in more time.

I'd probably throw something up there about weapon speed (since I still see a lot of unenlightened shamans running around with epic daggers, and yes I was once one), and probably a blurb about off-specs as well (Elemental having slightly higher personal DPS and Resto making for better versatility).

Question about DPS time: on fights with a lot of running, I generally hit Flame Shock as soon as I'm in range, then jam Stormstrike when I get close enough for that. This obviously increases my overall damage (since the shock cooldown is usually ready to go shortly after engaging the mob). But does it decrease the DPS stat? If I were "auditioning," would I be better off saving that first shock until after I had entered melee range?
#5426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Right but a Major Strength and a Flask have a 50 EP difference. I was mostly just showing how it all adds up. Just because Shaman A has a T4 helm, and Shaman B has a helm from a T4 instance does not make them "almost equal", the difference in AP/Crit/Hit adds up over all those gear differences and really makes an impact.

DPS time - I think either way you're going to have 95-99% dps time anyways, not that big of a deal. DPS time really is just something to check out when a guy has 1200 DPS but only like 5% activity time. Its for your bullshit meter to start sounding alarms.
#5427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan
Ok so, that guy didn't exactly have the largest data set available but... 75% uptime for dual executioner? Might be something to look at. We'd need a longer test done with an actual shaman though.
Well, he also got 50% uptime for single Executioner in conditions where he couldn't miss or be dodged. If we can correlate this with our observed Executioner uptime of 36% on endgame content, doesn't this imply a dual Executioner uptime of around 54%?

PS: No, this doesn't significantly increase the EP for hit rating. I just ran a sim on my gear with NO procs:HR was worth 1.57, then a sim with Dragonstrike, dual Mongoose, Dragonspine and Hourglass: HR was worth 1.58.
#5428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Dragonspine have 15s cd, hourglass proc on crits and have 45s cd.

If single executioner have 36% uptime dual executioner should have 1 - ((1 - 0.36) * (1 - 0.36)) = 1 - (.64^2) =
0.5904 = 59% uptime.
#5429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Pb -- it was my goal to research whether having a lot of procs available would change the value of hit rating in a dramatic way, and it looks like it doesn't. (Plus Mongoose is the more valuable of the four procs I tested and certainly doesn't have a cooldown).

Thanks for the math on double exec.; I have trouble setting up statistics problems. I'd ask my wife, but then I'd have to tell her what it was for.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/05/07 at 4:34 PM.
#5430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
On the dual mongoose vs mongoose/exe issue:

Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP

Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP


Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc.

It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something?

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/05/07 at 7:23 PM.
#5431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Lujaar
On the dual mongoose vs mongoose/exe issue:

Mongoose: 120 agi, 2% haste (~31 haste rating). I get about a 1.75 AEP value for both agi and haste. 151 *1.75 = 264 AEP

Executioner: 840 armor penetration, which has about a .3 AEP value for me. 840 *0.3 = 252 AEP


Both buffs last 15 seconds, and it looks like both enchants have the same proc rate. My stat weights are fairly typical and I'm getting that a mongoose proc has a higher AEP value than an executioner proc.

It looks to me like dual mongoose beats out mongoose/exe. Am I missing something?
With my EP values both are on par, but in the end mongoose always wins, because of the much higher use outside of raids.
#5432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by Malan
300 was an optimistic value, I think most people were agreeing it could be worth 255ish, but that was when there was a lot of skepticism that it had the same uptime as Mongoose - which its become pretty clear that it does.
321 was the amount I solved for given a 37% uptime
318 given a 36% (as those were the two most likely candidates at the time)

If you take the dps increase provided by the Executioner proc and multiply it by the uptime, and then attempt to find a value that gives the same increase with 100% uptime you will likely produce the same results (depending on the boss initial armor, I assumed full sunders and FF)

Interestingly enough, at 25% uptime, it was closer to 200 than 240
#5433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
With my EP values both are on par, but in the end mongoose always wins, because of the much higher use outside of raids.
I'd argue if you PvP a LOT, EXE > Mongoose (;
#5434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patonus
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.

/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8)

What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF.

Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air.

It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh.
#5435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Patonus
BTW I made an All-in-one spam macro after talking about Twist rotations.

/castsequence reset=8/combat Windfury Totem, Flame Shock(Rank 7), Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, Earth Shock(Rank 8)

What you will see happening is you'll go through the sequence and when you get to Earth Shock, you have to wait from the Flame Shock cooldown, then you Earth Shock and as you do that WF buff is about to fade and you refresh WF.

Second time you go through the sequence, you then have to wait for Flame Shock to come back up and by that time the WF totem will refresh allowing a fresh 9 seconds and then you go into Grace of Air.

It works out perfectly. Only difference is you lose 4 seconds of non Grace of Air-ness heh.
Losing that much uptime on goa is nowhere near worth it.
#5436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0beetlejuice
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose

1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.

2. PvP
We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits.

About Enhancement shaman performance in raid
Some additions.

Things that you can't see easily about an enhancement shaman in raids.

1. How often he drops special totems due to special situations like poison, fear, fire/frost damage, direct spell damage.
2. If he re-put his totems in relatively new locations fast enough so that his group won't have a chance to lose any totem buff due to long range.

Things you can see
1. How many times he interrupted enemy spellcasting.
2. If he used Bloodlust wisely considering his group and not his selfish dps thirst. Was the whole group ready to nuke? Was there enough time to fit Bloodlust in between special phases in bosses where you can;t focus on dps? etc.
3. Are his enhancement totems (Strength, Grace of Air, Windfury totem) improved with the appropriate enhancement talents?
#5437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Well if you want to see High end raid shaman dps here's a few parses :

Winterchill

Anethron

Kaz'Rogal

Had one try on Azgalor but due to high latency I had to sit out afterwards (Blaming blasted ISP).

Also after constant testing on the simulator I am still getting that 2xMongoose is superior to Mongoose+Excutioner.

& You can't possibly say that crit won't benefit you after 30%... It goes into diminshing returns but it will always still benefit you.
#5438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0tzenes
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose

1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but i had an increase in my dps in 25man raids since the moment i replaced one mongoose enchant with an executioner enchant. My raid rogues need to be focused 100% to be over my total dps and boss dps and sometimes they dont make it. Critical chance is a very strange thing. 2xMongooses will help a lot an entry raid enhancement shaman, boosting his crit chance from say 25% to even 35% occasionaly. However, at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps. I believe that if you are about 30% crit chance unbuffed you can dump one mongoose and get executioner enchant. Mongoose is overrated and in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
I would love to see some of the parses where you're giving your rogues a run for their money.

Right now our sword rogues are hitting 1600-1700 dps, and even in max gear my simulations don't get that high. Just the very idea that you could be on par makes me shiver.
#5439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
I won't give you numbers or links to data
Exactly what this thread needs -- a nice dose of speculation.
Critical chance is a very strange thing.
Not really. It's a percentage increase to all your physical damage, which as a bonus increases proc uptime.
at higher gear, an increase in critical strike chance from 35% to 45% wont give extremely different dps.
Actually, it'll give the exact same dps increase as going from 25%-35%.

You do 800 dps at 25%. Going to 35% will add 64 dps (800 * 1.35 /1.25 = 864). Going to 45% adds a further 64 dps (864 * 1.45 / 1.35 = 928).

Obviously, 64 DPS is a smaller PERCENTAGE increase, going from 25 to 35 and 35 to 45, but it's the same AMOUNT of increase. Which may be why:
in many raids my avg critical chance wasn;t much higher than my passive critical chance.
Actually, on second glance that makes no sense at all.

You are on the right track about the possible benefits for PvP, especially in arena. But let's get some numbers, huh? How much resilience are people stacking these days? How much crit are we losing? And how much armor are people stacking (Armor Penetration has more value at low armor than high armor)?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/06/07 at 11:41 AM.
#5440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
[about what going from 35% to 45% crit chance does]
Not really. It's a percentage increase to all your physical damage, which as a bonus increases proc uptime.

Actually, it'll give the exact same dps increase as going from 25%-35%.
This is wrong. The "bonus" you refer to is very significant and cannot be ignored. Flurry, UR and other crit procs have a dramatic affect on your DPS (and in UR's case, your whole group's). For a reductio ad absurdum proof, going from 0% to 10% not only gives you the straight 10% crit damage boost, but it also means that you will almost always be gaining flurry (straight 30% dps increase, modulo bizarre WF issues) and very often will be gaining UR (10% for you and your party). Obviously, that's going to be the best thing you could possibly do. On the other hand, going from 90% to 100% will almost never increase your flurry or UR uptime, and so your added benefit will be barely more than the straight 10%.

Put another way, when your crit chance is very low (5-10%) the EP of Agi/Crit is going to be WAY HIGHER than it is once you're in epic gear.

For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*.

Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued.
#5441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Wundorn
Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)? This is related to my earlier question about how Agi/Crit was valued.
I remember doing it on my warrior (Melee class with both Flurry & WF factored in as I was an orc back then) pre-tbc & found out I went into diminshing returns as I went past the 33%~36% range.

Will try to find the excel sheet but it might be lost in a format or two .
#5442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hulkling
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
About Executioner and Mongoose VS 2x Mongoose

1. PvE
I won't give you numbers or links to data but ...

2. PvP
We all have seen how Enhancement shaman performs in Arenas. Either he kills fast or crowd control kills him, especialy in 5v5 teams. I believe that 2x mongooses versus mongoose+Executioner won't have a difference in critical strikes in PvP situations, as the total time of a fight is extremely low, not to mention the "diminishing returns" of critical strike chance due to resilience. On the other hand executioner will give you a chance to do more burst damage on a target, catching enemy healers off guard, especialy with some nice windfury hits.
1. This is a theorycrafting forum. Numbers and links are pretty much required if you're trying to make a new assertion about dps. If you dont have numbers to back up what you're saying, why should any of us believe it? Thats like saying "The more you hit, the more damage you can do" which made sense at the time, but turned out to be false and a factor that would severely limit a shaman's damage by going for hit rating.

2. Versus any group with a healer, if you have seen how enhancement performs in arena, you would know that we migrate from a burst dps class to a long term steady burn. Because of resil, crit chance is extremely overrated in an arena setting, whereas reducing a clothie's armor to next to nothing is extremely valuable. When your crit rate is reduced to about 14% and the damage from that 14% is reduced by 20%, focusing on improving my non-crit attacks has worked out better for me personally. If we look at a drop in critical strike effectiveness due to resil, it would undeniably make up the very small difference in the EP values for both enchants.

Sorry about the PVP tangent, but I felt as it had been brought up, it should be corrected.
#5443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
For realistic crit chance ranges for raiders, it's not a linear reduction, but the more crit you have, the less *actual* dps more crit will get you, not just the less *percentage*.
I thought I could ignore it in the interest of showing crit rating was pretty useful at any crite percentage, but I ran a quick test -- twelve runs of yo's sim testing only autoattack, windfury & ss(default values except: 24% hit to remove misses from the test, 0% haste rating, no LotP, no RED, no shocks or procs), altering only crit in 5% intervals from 0-60%:

Crit DPS  %Flrried Delta DPS Delta %Flry Crit EP Armor Pen EP
---- ---  -------- --------- ----------- ------  ------------
0    543  0        -         -
5    584  13       41        13          3.74    .27
10   646  32       62        19
15   703  47       57        15          2.75    .26
20   755  59       52        12
25   806  68	   51        9           2.21    .26
30   854  75       48        7
35   901  81       47        6           1.7     .26
40   946  86       45        5
45   990  90	   44        4           1.6     .26
50   1032 92       42        2
55   1076 95       44        3           1.45    .27
60   1117 96       41        1
And yeah -- as you can see, the DPS added by 5% additional crit DOES decrease as you get more and more of it. But beyond 25% crit, which most of us have, the falloff isn't particularly significant (around 2 dps per 5% crit added). Since that's the range I was looking into with my previous post, well, I didn't screw up THAT badly.

I'm not sure how the current Flurry bug affects all this (would love to have that modeled).

Thats like saying "The more you hit, the more damage you can do" which made sense at the time, but turned out to be false
*sigh*, no it didn't. More hits does mean more damage. What is false is the premise that because more hits means more damage, hit rating is very important. It turns out that,working within a given itemization budget, fewer, bigger hits are worth MORE damage than more, smaller hits. While the opposite may be true for rogues and warriors, with shamans it's all about quality, not quantity.
#5444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Wundorn
Has anyone plotted this dps benefit change from crit chance 0-100% (and therefore, the change in EP)?
Unbuffed = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^3))*100
Windfury = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.2))*100
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.4))*100

I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably.
Attached Images
crituptime.JPG (32.7 KB, 84 views)
#5445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Unbuffed = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^3))*100
Windfury = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.2))*100
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*Crit)^4.4))*100

I estimated Windfury high and Stormstrike at contributing a criminally low value, but you get the idea of where this is going. Once you go past 30%-35% crit your contribution from increased Flurry uptime drops off considerably.
Yeah I would say you need to turn up WF/Stormstrike alot, at 35% crit (excluding mongoose procs) I have about 95% flurry uptime in raids according to WWS logs. So the 60 something % on that graph is a way off.
#5446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Remember that you gonna have Mongoose procs in game that will seriously skew the graph for you.

& in raids you gonna have mongoose procs unless you gonna go with non enchanted weapons to test it out

EDIT: Just noticed that the OP doesn't have the EP values for Tier 6 geared shamans so did them :

Considered full raid buffs with kings & with a flask.

AP = 1
Str = 2
Agi = 1.52
Crit Rating = 1.72
Hit Rating = 1.64 <== Starting to catch up with crit in EP ?
Haste Rating = 1.74 <== Becomes more important then Crit ?
Armor Penetration = 0.28

Last edited by Bragor : 12/06/07 at 10:22 PM.
#5447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Maybe I'm dumb and missed a patch note somewhere, but when the hell did Searing Totem start ignoring CC?
#5448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Think it was implemented with the priest's shadow fiend overhaul in patch 2.2 ?

Still bugs up thought & ends up hitting the target if you hit it first then it gets CCed.
#5449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Horus
sometimes it hits cc'ed mobs, sometimes it didn't. i've seen Searing hittin shacks and i've seen Searing ignoring sheeps. don't know, is kind of 'blizzard mechanics' "its not a bug, its a feature"

@All-in-One Macro:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=12/target/combat Stormstrike, Earthshock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flameshock
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();

maybe 90 % windfury uptime
#5450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
#5451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Mox
Yeah I would say you need to turn up WF/Stormstrike alot, at 35% crit (excluding mongoose procs) I have about 95% flurry uptime in raids according to WWS logs. So the 60 something % on that graph is a way off.
Doing math is hard.
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*35)^4.4))*100 = 84.97
Yeah, way off.
#5452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
beetlejuice
About me not giving numbers, i meant i hadn't any saved numbers to give when i made the post.
Also my raid dps has increased from 2xmongoose to mongoose+executioner, the comparison with my raid rogues had nothing to do without it. I am constantly top2-5 after the executioner.
Also, i found out that my raid rogues are mutilate spec the last two raids and i falsely believed that i was outdpsing the combat sword/dagger rogues of my guild.

I do believe critical rating is a wierd stat and the poster with the critical table where more critical will start giving less increase in dps, somehow proves my feeling.

However, the times i had a feral druid in my group instead of a 3rd rogue, were happy hours for me, as i had increased damage output.

Seeing Bragor doing such nice dps in winterchill, i promise to edit this post in the upcoming sunday/monday and give some wwstats for my winterchill fight. We have some similar gear, i lack some ap critical and hit rating compared to him but i am a bit more hasted and have some armor penetration gear.
A question abour your fight Bragor. I see you did just 2 earthshocks the whole fight? is that true? Seeing 24 stormstrikes 16 flameshocks and 2 earthshocks seems like you could fit in , say , 8 more flameshocks and 22 more earthshocks idealy speaking. Was it slacking ? Or was it totem twisting? nope it wasn't totem twisting, no GoA totem placed during the fight

Last edited by beetlejuice : 12/07/07 at 3:46 AM.
#5453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Say it's just trying to keep alive on winterchill.. had like 4~6 death & decays on melee.

My first respone is to do Flame shock first & By the time I get back to him I rerun my normal routine of Stormstrike first => Flameshock => Earthshock.
#5454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
Man you need to Earthshock, Chain Lightning if you had to run out of it ^^ That is an absolute must 8)
#5455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Malan
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
Yes, that behavior is in the game since some time. I think it started with 2.0, but was enhanced with 2.1. Searing is a great tool and it's idiotic that elemental shamans have to dump it for the crit totem, they should have made that an earth totem.

Regarding high end shaman dps, I reached some pretty high numbers in the run yesterday: Wow Web Stats. 1913 at Rage, 1700 at Anetheron/Kaz and 1800 at Teron.
#5456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Just a heads up, Blizzard is taking ideas for talent reviews now: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280012&sid=1#0

This could be our chance to get rid of shield spec and toughness (and anticipation for those of you that don't like it).
#5457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by drats
Just a heads up, Blizzard is taking ideas for talent reviews now: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...280012&sid=1#0

This could be our chance to get rid of shield spec and toughness (and anticipation for those of you that don't like it).
When I arena I actually take Toughness and Anticipation. Mostly for a lack of better talents, but a 10k+ armor target when I have a shield on and SR up makes a big difference when I get assist trained.

The real loser talents are Guardian Totems, Earth's grasp and Shield Spec. Cutting Healing Focus down to 3 points to be in line with the other healing classes would make a lot of sense too, considering how many points we put into resto.
#5458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yes I posted in that thread this morning, it was already at over 15 pages though, who knows how much they'll read of it.
I mentioned the Relic and Armor itemization issues, Tier 1- Tier 4 talents being largely useless, and also mentioned that the Windfury tooltips really need to be fixed to indicate the cooldown.
#5459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0robertsmb
Hello forum. I just registered today and this is my first post, but I have referenced your site many times in the past regarding my class information, and I must say that you guys really know how to lay down the law when it comes to gaming. I will try to keep this as coherant as possible,... and I can only hope to understand this as well as you do.

Ok,

My main is a Draenei Shaman. 0/47/14 Enhancement Spec. My gear is what I consider to be "low raid", but all epics. Teir 4, Heroics, Kara mostly, and Gruul. Armory can be found under the character "Moorah" on the garona server. I currently am the only raiding shaman in my guild, so I get every mail epic that drops. I have experienced every raiding spec with full epic gear at or around the level of the instances I described.

The weapons I currently use swap constantly because I have collected so many drops. My armory should currently show the Decaptitator (With Mongoose) and the Merciless Gladiators Hacker (1.5 speed, yes its fast but it was the only thing i could afford with 1000 arena points). For a slow offhand, the only option I have is the Boggspine Knuckles from Heroic Underbog. I have them enchanted with Crusader.


Ive been referencing this "enhancment bible" and messing with Yo's calc. I had 2 small questions about Haste and DPS, and the effect of white damage on my overall DPS. For this test I will assume that the slow offhand is the best DPS choice of my current gear, and will be using the Boggspine Knuckles for the offhand, and changing my 2 main hand weapons to see results. See below.

I was assuming that the calculator will not emulate the in game results 100%, and its more of a baseline tool to use to tweak what effects a gear's upgrde's would have on your overall dps. All the same, I questioned some results, and wanted some smart people to help me justify them.

Firstly,

I followed the directions on the calc and imput my personal stats as requested. Weapon information, enchants, talents, and all buffs that I normally have in my 10 man setting... using the Decapitator MH with mongoose, and the Bog Knucks OH with Crusader. I also checked the option to run the AEP and set the hours to 10,000. I even felt leet and decided to dedicate one complete part of my dual core processor to running the app. =) After 4 or 5 mins, the DPS showed 919, and the AEP showed me that haste rating would best benifit my DPS increases. I did this run with the haste rating at 0 and the haste potion (50 static haste) turned off. My trinket on the calculator was the Hourglass of the Unraveler, but I also have the Abacus of Violent Odds (260 haste)

With that in mind, I knew I had The Bladefist in the bank. Which gave me an idea.

I did some quick research that showed me that the 180 haste proc on the bladefist is up about 65-69% of all fights, and has a proc rate of 3ppm according to testing using procwatch (Wowhead: Not soulbound. Share it with your friends!). After some fancy math that I didnt understand, the site said that it was about equal to having a standard haste rating of 90. 90 haste rating is about 5.7% haste using the formula for calculating haste found on the Yo's calc directions.

I imput the stats for the lower DPS Bladefist (83.3 compared with 92.1 from the decap) and added the adjustment to haste and slight adjustment to my crit for loosing the decapitator. I also have Crusader on the Bladefist, so I loose my mongoose, but I adjusted that weapon buff as well. The DPS jumped up to 936 from 919, with a lower DPS weapon. This is an increase of 17 DPS from using a lower DPS weapon with no more mongoosee enchant.... so loosing that 4.8% crit from mongoose.

Also, on the AEP side of the calc, it now showed that haste rating was not as important as hit rating.... actually hit was now double the AEP of haste. =) LOL.

Can someoen explain how this works, or what would be my next step in determining what weapon combo woudl most benift me? How does adding all this haste affect my Windfury proc cooldown? Is it better to add haste or not? Would it be better to use the Bladefist or the Decapitator? Haste Pots?

What would be the benifit of the slight mongoose haste buff on the bladefist or popping the trinket (abacus)? Dual Mongoose haste buff?

Question number 2.

About hit rating.

From what I gather from this post about hit rating,.. its nice to have, but not necesary. The Yo's calc theoretically breaks down what percentage of your DPS comes from what type of hit..... Im sure this is uniform for everyone, but for me it showed 48% of my DPS comes from white dmg. Windfury and Stormstrike, my 2 specials only amounted to 44% of my total dmg output.

This is my confusion.

I read this post to understand that specials would be the majority of my damage output in fights, and that getting the 9% from talents would be enough +hit to max those specials.

This evidence suggests that white dmg is more of my dps than windfury and stormstrike (and even shocks) combined, and that hit would be more benificial to have.

Please advise.

Thanks for the great information guys. Keep up the good work.
#5460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Darkkow
Hello,

I have been a long time reader of this forum, and thought I would pass along some webstats if anyone wants to take a look at them, and garner what information they can from them. I joined Pinnacle on 10/04/07, and had dual mongoose on both weapons at all times, until 2.3.0 patch came out. As of any webstats posted after 11/14/07 that I am in, I have had a mongoose/executioner enchant on at all times.

I am hoping that this can be used to help parse some information. If there is anything else that I can help in contributing, please feel free to contact me, Darkkow on Llane. I am always up for gathering information for a good cause.


Thanks!

Wow Web Stats
#5461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by robertsmb
This is my confusion.

I read this post to understand that specials would be the majority of my damage output in fights, and that getting the 9% from talents would be enough +hit to max those specials.

This evidence suggests that white dmg is more of my dps than windfury and stormstrike (and even shocks) combined, and that hit would be more benificial to have.
This thread never claimed that yellow melee would make up the majority of your damage. The bottom line on the hit discussion is that it's not as important to enhance shaman as it is to rogues and fury warriors (which is where we were getting initial cues on how to dps from, and where the "hit is king" idea came from). There are three primary reasons for this.

The first is that we get 9% hit from talents which caps yellow attacks.

The second is that white hits make up a smaller percentage of our dps than it does for raiding rogues. We see white around ~45% of our dps, while combat rogues see ~60% of their dps from white hits. If white hits are 45% of your dps, then +hit past 9% from talents will improve 45% of your dps. AP/crit, on the other hand, will improve both white and yellow damage, which combined make up ~90% of your dps.

The third reason (and the one that's often most overlooked) is that we do not have a white->yellow feedback system like rogues and fury warriors do. Rogues have combat potency, fury warriors have rage generated by white hits. When either class sees more white hits, it translates into more energy/rage available for more yellow hits. In this way, +hit for these two will improve their yellow dps even after their specials are hit capped.

Then again, everything I've said up to this point is already stated clearly in the OP.


As for your personal results from the sim, everyone's gear is different. In progressing from 5-man blues through kara and now T5 (working on vashj), Yo's sim never reported my EP for hit as low as the 1.4 that other's have seen. At one point around the end of kara, I was running over 190 hit rating, now I'm at only 87. I didn't make a decision to dump hit, I just used the average values from the sim and took gear upgrades accordingly.

Last edited by Skiace : 12/07/07 at 5:43 PM.
#5462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
We do have white->yellow system. Windfury. Its have have cooldown but its not instant with timer. Going for 0 to hit to hit cap also give 10% more wf damage and also raise flurry uptime to 80% from 78%. This means that 18% to hit give to 10% more WF procs. All these numbers come from YO's simulator using base values only modified hit%.
#5463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Darkkow -- welcome brother!

Data is great but it does need some context. Did you have any substantial gear upgrades between, say, your black temple runs on 10/7 and 10/14 (I don't see any Expertise gear or badge rewards)? Are you generally in the same sort of group every week?

A quick glance at the average damage from your melee attacks looks like you're doing about 5% more melee damage with Executioner (which may have something to do with your crit rating being so high)...but more context is needed to determine if that's from Executioner alone.
#5464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Darkkow
Toots -- Thanks!

Expertise gear was not available until the 2.3 patch, so I have kind of been waiting to see the data from all the theorycrafting to see if it really will be more benificial to us. As for loot upgrades, I had some along the way:

10/02/07 -(my apologies, first raid not 10/04) - Band of Devistation, so slight Haste upgrade
10/03/07 - Shadow-Walker's Cord - gear upgrade as well as haste
10/04/07 - T6 gloves from Fist of Mukoa
10/04/07 - Forest Prowler's Helm - HUGE upgrade from T4
10/10/07 - Sofstep Boots of Tracking from Star-Strider boots

As for the group makeup, it usually consists of 3 sword rogues and 1 fury warrior, with the very rare occasion a feral druid thrown in for one of the rogues. Part of the variances you see are also based on some rogues trying out Hemo, a warrior trying out Blood Frenzy, a Paly trying out Ret, but for the most part they were only for 1-2 raids.

If you need some more information, I am a lucky to have 2 Syphons, 1 with Executioner and 1 with Mongoose, to go along with my Rising Tide with Mongoose. I also have a Dragonstrike with Mongoose on it. So if you need some data, let me know, and I will run a couple hour test in the blasted lands for people to parse thru the information. Always glad to help out.
#5465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
This has been the behavior for a while now. The problem is that if it starts charging up the shot before the mob is sheeped, it will not "cancel" its cast if the mob is sheeped. So it can break the sheep, once it's broken it will be a valid target, rinse & repeat. You still have to be careful using Searing on multi-mob pulls (personally, I just don't use it on anything other than bosses.)
#5466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yes still not sure how the heck I managed to miss that change though. Oh well, its definitely improved Searing Totem usage by the shaman in our raids after I informed them about it. 4-5 of them up on every trash pack now.

Rob if you have some spare time, how would you feel about figuring out the RED EP value on Yo's sim?
#5467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Az-
Anyone know of a site like Lootzor that is updated with haste and ignore armor?

Been looking but not having much luck.

Till next time...
#5468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Thottbot has a similar system its just annoying to use.
#5469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0djaehns
Originally Posted by Az-
Anyone know of a site like Lootzor that is updated with haste and ignore armor?

Been looking but not having much luck.

Till next time...

MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

The problem is that this guy hasn't finished the enhancer yet. But perhaps this is good news for us, we could support him with the knowdledgo of this thread. I think this could be a nice tool then.
#5470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
To Malan.
With your gear RED is 86ep.
#5471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
To Malan.
With your gear RED is 86ep.
Well crud that eliminates damn near every helm that I could replace it with easily. =\
#5472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by djaehns
MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News

The problem is that this guy hasn't finished the enhancer yet. But perhaps this is good news for us, we could support him with the knowdledgo of this thread. I think this could be a nice tool then.
Does he have any clue what he's doing? Does he show his work? I don't like the thought of trusting a closed source dps application. We've all had major errors in ours - Pater's, mine, enshamulator's Yo!'s, that were found through peer review.
#5473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
Just quoting myself :

Originally Posted by LazyJoe
I'm currently having ~30% crit unbuffed, let's say my average crit rating in raid situation is 40% (pretty easy to reach with kings, MotW, the feral aura and double mongoose enchant.... if i drop GoA i have more than 50% when the two mongooose proc, yes i'm a crit lover )

So my attack table on a boss looks like this :

13,3% miss
5,6% dodge
25% glancing blows
16,1% regular hit
40% crit

To simplify things, if I assume a regular white hit to be 100 damage, we have :

16,1% * 100 = 16,1 dps from hit damage
25% * 0.7 * 100 = 17,5 dps from glancing blows
40% * 2 * 100 = 80 dps from crits

so 113,6 dps, with a very significant part coming from crits

now if i have add the RED effect, crits will do

40% * 2 * 1.03 * 100 = 82,4 dps

This leads to a total of 116 dps with RED.

116/113,4 = 1,021 so the RED is a 2,1 % dps increase in my situation
You can easily replace your own values in the math to get your own RED contribution, but it should be at least around 2% for any well-geared shaman in a real raid situation (may slightly vary if you stack lots of hit/expertise). But even with crappy gear in a non-optimal situation (ie no feral aura) it will at least be around 1.5%, so it is always a very solid dps increase, you have to gain a lot of EP (80+ seems accurate) if you change your helm for another one where you can't put an RED.

EDIT : forgot about the new mental swiftness, which should lower a bit the results, just like it changed the EP value of crits.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 12/09/07 at 12:56 PM.
#5474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Az-
Originally Posted by Malan
Thottbot has a similar system its just annoying to use.
Yeah I am starting to work on that but for some reason I can not get it to save the values I put in so it always pulls up the items they have defalted to. Will have to play with it more as I get time.

Till next time...
#5475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Weem
I stumbled across this site this evening: Loot Rank. It allows you to input your EP values much like Lootzor. Has separate options for each gem color as well as meta gems. Even has expertise and armor pen (but not haste). It even has the ability to save up to 5 different sets of values. I noticed a bug with critical strike rating not being calculated properly and mentioned in the forums as well as the lack of a melee haste option. If he gets those two working it seems it'll be an excellent Lootzor alternative.
#5476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0cerberos
Originally Posted by drats
I'd enchant it with 70AP. Mongoose is pretty expensive and works best on two weapons. That being said: Do not use a two hander for enhancement pve. All of our talents and buffs are designed around DW. UR and flurry uptime take a huge hit with a 2hander, and that decreases damage for your whole group.

Gearwise, there's a lot you can do to upgrade. If you have the time and money, I'd suggest farming up a fel edged battle axe for MH and the Heroic Underbog offhand. I'd also suggest hitting up heroics for key upgrades like the WF totem(Mana Tombs) and bloodlust broach(badges). If you have atlas and statbuster, take some time to look through instances and find which pieces of gear are easily attainable upgrades.

PS. Your crit is really really low. At the minimum you'd want it high enough so that UR has a good chance of proccing within 10 seconds.

Edit: Oh, you might want to hold to the HWL axe for an offhand till you get something better.
Hello, sorry for quoting an old post

I just did Mongoose on my new world breaker (i had the mats for another weapon but i just did it here). Ofc i will use the weapon only for PvP purposes, when i dont play on PvE Instances. My question is:
Regarding also the quoted post, is it better to do Savagery on it (as my ap is not higher than 1470 ap atm) or leave mongoose on it?

Ty in advance

(Ps I did searched this thread for a post like this, but i have only found the above quoted post)
#5477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?

Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post.
#5478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Only [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] or [Grimgrin Faceguard] as far as I can see(if it's an upgrade can be disputed). This from Armor - Items - World of Warcraft

May I ask why you don't want a meta gem?

Edit: added the Grimgrin Faceguard
#5479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Its not that I don't want a meta gem, its that I want an upgrade from my T4 helm. (Partly aesthetic based, I despise how that helm looks)

According to Pawn with my EP values the Coif is about 60 EP better than T4, and the Grimgrin was a little more than that. But neither greater than the 80 EP that the RED is apparently worth.
#5480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Both T5, T6, [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] and [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] are better, am I missing something essential in this train of thoughts?

Edit: Ah. RED. Never mind me
#5481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah obviously I'll pick up a helm with a meta socket when possible, but what I'm trying to do now is find an upgrade that I have immediate access to like something from ZA or whatever. We're only up to RoS and Bloodboil in BT so I don't have access to the later stuff, and I'm pretty low on the totem pole for a T6 helm (plus our first kill was last night so it would be awhile anyways).
#5482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Yeah. I assume you have stopped grinding T5 content and the arena and ZA gear is par with the T4 helmet at best. Best hope for luck with Archy tokens then.

But would you go for [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] instead of T6 if given the chance? Seen a few enhance shamans do that and I don't really have T6 content enhance gear to get numbers to compare them in Yo!
#5483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah the CVoS would be the ideal helm but obviously I'll have 2-4 rogues and a feral druid to compete against, not to mention that Illidan is going to be a few months away. Looks like the options for a helm past T4 are pretty slim pickings, very disappointing.
#5484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
There is always [Forest Prowler's Helm]. Still four bosses down the road(if you have BB and RoS unkilled), but a nice item.
#5485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patrik
T5 helm provided great service to me for some months, your guild stopped raiding SSC completely, Malan?
#5486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
audy
Haste rating vs amor reduction

hi, I'm a enhancement shamy and I would like some suggestion for my raid dps gear.

I raid with 4 pvp merciless gear to get 4 piece bonus set, with 100-126 hit rating (from belt, boots neck, pants)
main hand weapon is Decapitator (mongoose) and my off-hand weapon is Fury (potency, (+20 str))

I'm about to get all the armor reduction gear from badges and ZA

my guild run kara/Z'A (stuck on Dex lord Mala...)/Gruul/SSC

I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard

I wandering if stacking haste gear (rogue set from heroic badges) is better for me then stacking armor reduction...

Taking in consideration that I duel wield with Windfury enchant on both weapons...
haste rating will nerf my windfury proc rate since there is a 3 seccooldown... correct me if I'm wrong...

you can check me out on armory for any sugggestion and/or feel free to e-mail me


thanks

= )

Last edited by audy : 12/10/07 at 11:39 AM.
#5487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quizzle
I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're more of a melee support/dps class than a straight up dps class. So it seems to me that we can never really challenge for the top spots dps-wise in a raid. If this isn't the case, I'd love to hear how people are achieving those spots over the so-called "pure" dps classes (as I've always thought we couldn't keep up with equally geared mages/hunters/rogues/locks).

Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren.
#5488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Quizzle
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're more of a melee support/dps class than a straight up dps class. So it seems to me that we can never really challenge for the top spots dps-wise in a raid. If this isn't the case, I'd love to hear how people are achieving those spots over the so-called "pure" dps classes (as I've always thought we couldn't keep up with equally geared mages/hunters/rogues/locks).

Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren.
Maybe it's the lack of a well geared rogue, but I tend to be #1 on your average tank and spank boss.
You can easily compete with warriors, hunters, mages and warlocks, last one probably being the hardest.

Not saying that I always beat them, but it's certainly not a clear cut case of them doing more damage.

Then again, the only really "pure" dps class is a rogue, as they add nothing to a raid beside their personal damage.
#5489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nurru
Originally Posted by audy
words
Your words are like some sort of optical cancer. Why do you hate us so much?
#5490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by Malan
I've been dropping it right next to sheeped mobs in BT to test it, with no other valid target around and it ignores the sheep and only goes for it when broken.
Yep. The problem is the relatively slow projectile. If that projectile is in flight while the target gets cc'ed it will break the sheep then the totem sees it as a viable target and keeps firing.
#5491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ castille
Originally Posted by audy
hi, I'm a enhancement shamy and I would like some suggestion for my raid dps gear.

I raid with 4 pvp merciless gear to get 4 piece bonus set, with 100-126 hit rating (from belt, boots neck, pants)
main hand weapon is Decapitator (mongoose) and my off-hand weapon is Fury (potency, (+20 str))

I'm about to get all the armor reduction gear from badges and ZA

my guild run kara/Z'A (stuck on Dex lord Mala...)/Gruul/SSC

I wana be top dps of our raid but with mage/rogue and hunter its really hard

I wandering if stacking haste gear (rogue set from heroic badges) is better for me then stacking armor reduction...

Taking in consideration that I duel wield with Windfury enchant on both weapons...
haste rating will nerf my windfury proc rate since there is a 3 seccooldown... correct me if I'm wrong...

you can check me out on armory for any sugggestion and/or feel free to e-mail me


thanks

= )
Oh, that's much better.

You can do good DPS, but you really shouldn't be top. Your windfuries are capped with a 3 second cooldown timer, but all you're going to do is 'shift' the percentages of your yellow and white damage. With haste rating, you'll see more white damage and less yellow in the total percentage of your overall damage. Haste rating is not evil.

Last edited by castille : 12/10/07 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Clarifying my wording.
#5492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0audy
so whats better haste rating or armor reduction?
#5493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Yo's sim will answer that question for you.
#5494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ castille
Originally Posted by audy
so whats better haste rating or armor reduction?
Point for point, haste rating is. However, you usually get armor reduction in batches, and haste rating in tiny offerings. Of note is that Mongoose also doesn't use hast rating, but is a static 2% speed increase.

How valuable it is will entirely depend on your current gear, so you'll have to do some legwork there. I suspect that for most people, the amount of armor pen available will outstrip the amount of haste rating available because of ZA's increased availability of that stat vs needing access to BT to get haste rating.
#5495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Malan
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?

Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post.
Its not without a meta gem (the ones from ZA are the only that I am aware of that could be considered "upgrades" that do not have a meta gem) but Mask of the Deceiver - Items - World of Warcraft is a definite upgrade. Now whether you'll find that ascetically pleasing (go go recolored Nightslayer!) or be willing to spend 50 Badges is yet to be determined.

I'm glad to see that they fixed those problems so quickly. Unfortunately, haste is now bugged but I reckon they'll get that fixed in short order.

Last edited by Weem : 12/10/07 at 2:52 PM.
#5496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah the CVoS would be the ideal helm but obviously I'll have 2-4 rogues and a feral druid to compete against, not to mention that Illidan is going to be a few months away. Looks like the options for a helm past T4 are pretty slim pickings, very disappointing.
Although it was already linked, I'll reiterate the advice to pick up the [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm]. Depending on your EP values it's either just below or just above [Cataclysm Helm] in terms of pure DPS stats, and would be a clear upgrade from both the ZA helms without Metas and your Cyclone Helm.

Last edited by Rob : 12/10/07 at 3:31 PM.
#5497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0grado
Hi all,

Over the last couple of weeks I've been reading the whole thread and grats to Malan and all who have contributed to it.

I'm an Orc shaman and we're just entering BT, I was fortunate enough to have [Rising Tide] drop so I snapped it up, however, I see the Supremus drops the Syphon which is .2 Slower, so I have a conumdrum of which is better for me, does the slower speed and topend SS damage outweigh my weapon expertise?
#5498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
#5499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ujai
I don't quite see why you do not like the Thottbot search function.
Basically what I do is run Yo's Sim, find my EP values, go to the Import/Export tab and copy the Thottbot link.
Whenever I want to search for items again, I just use the adress my browser saved.
As far as I can see, Thott also does not normalize the values, which I like. But maybe I'm just not into it enough to see what needs improvement.
#5500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Rob
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
I didn't realize expertise wasn't working but you're right it is definitely borked. Loot Rank doesn't normalize the scores like the other sites do (I assume you're meaning them as well and if not my apologies). Its one of the reasons I think they'll be our go to site if they get all the kinks worked out.
#5501SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Quizzle
Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're more of a melee support/dps class than a straight up dps class. So it seems to me that we can never really challenge for the top spots dps-wise in a raid. If this isn't the case, I'd love to hear how people are achieving those spots over the so-called "pure" dps classes (as I've always thought we couldn't keep up with equally geared mages/hunters/rogues/locks).

Probably a topic already discussed in another thread, and I don't like hijacking other people's discussions. Forgive me ahead of time. Much love to my Shaman sisters and brethren.
Wow Web Stats

We certainly arent top DPS when equally geared, but we arent useless as DPS either!

(p.s. if you look at the bloodboil kill im so low because im eatting bloodboil debuffs due to a lack of casters and we didnt want our healers to have to move much!)
#5502SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
Ok seems I was really slow on answering here so I deleted it ...
#5503SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mengus
T4 Helm Upgrades

Another viable option is the Leather Badge helm, and also the Engineering Helms are noteworthy, especially if you occasionally respec. HAving 3x T5-level helms isn't bad at all.
#5504SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quizzle
Originally Posted by Traker
Wow Web Stats

We certainly arent top DPS when equally geared, but we arent useless as DPS either!

(p.s. if you look at the bloodboil kill im so low because im eatting bloodboil debuffs due to a lack of casters and we didnt want our healers to have to move much!)
Well then, it seems my gear is very much lacking. I have trouble pulling 700 dps in SSC (we're just starting). I must say, 1600+ dps is a pretty impressive number, and I've got some work to do!
#5505SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
bottom [Cyclone Helm] = [Grimgrin Faceguard] = [Coif of the Jungle Stalker]
midfield [Mask of the Deceiver] << [Deathblow X11 Goggles] < [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] < [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] = [Cataclysm Helm] < [Skyshatter Cover] < [Forest Prowler's Helm]
top [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]

S3 helmet is so easy to get, 2-4 weeks of 1h each for your 5on5 leeching team and it's done.

1600 dps seems to be a lot, but he has a good amount of support besides his haste potions and battle shout:

The mob has low base armor and
- curse of recklessness
- fearie fire
- hemorrhage
- expose weakness
- sunder armor

And it's a static tank&spank fight. It's a shame he didn't even try to twist totem on this fight.
#5506SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Myul
bottom [Cyclone Helm] = [Grimgrin Faceguard] = [Coif of the Jungle Stalker]
midfield [Mask of the Deceiver] << [Deathblow X11 Goggles] < [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] < [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] = [Cataclysm Helm] < [Skyshatter Cover] < [Forest Prowler's Helm]
top [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]

S3 helmet is so easy to get, 2-4 weeks of 1h each for your 5on5 leeching team and it's done.

1600 dps seems to be a lot, but he has a good amount of support besides his haste potions and battle shout:

The mob has low base armor and
- curse of recklessness
- fearie fire
- hemorrhage
- expose weakness
- sunder armor

And it's a static tank&spank fight. It's a shame he didn't even try to twist totem on this fight.
Personally I dont try to totem twist anymore. Its a pretty interesting point and I am certainly interested in other peoples thoughts on it, but I am happier with the DPS output of perfectly timing shock rotations and stormstrikes right on the nose of a WF CD. My DPS certainly could have been higher but its only the 2nd time my guild killed that boss so I was a bit more focused on complaining about incompetent tools who cant hit 5-4-3-3-3-3-5-4-3-3-3-3.

Also, I can only DREAM about our feral druid keeping faerie fire up :/
I made a grand total of roughly 200 melee attacks on the boss, so hemo added what? 1400 damage total? assuming 100% uptime!
Definetly had CoR, despite much(retarded) complaining from the healers.
the haste thing you see in the WWS is from DST, not haste potions though, im too poor to spam those down the drain :/.
#5507SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aftershocks
your dps?

I don't think you realize the reason we are brought to raids... not for our own dps you could bring another rogue to out dps us... we add anywhere between 1k-1500 dps to our group...

Anyway, reason I'm posting is I had a pertinent question regarding the best rotation for max dps you have seen or experienced while still Totem twisting. I used to SS (using this Cool down as my reference for when to begin the rotation again) then WF, GoA, FS and repeat. Then I began using this rotation which also comes out to you needing to repeat once you have finished your rotation to keep WF on the group but it's WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES making sure you start attacking first before you start this rotation or you will gimp your dps for about 5 seconds. You can easily switch FS and ES in that rotation to accommodate having an Elemental shaman as you are indeed there to boost your raids dps not your own.

If anyone has a better rotation, a more inventive or imaginative one that you purpose may up the dps of the enhancement shaman as well keeping your groups OP buffs up please do respond.

#5508SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Hemorrhage(Rank 4)
35 Energy	                         5 yd range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that deals 125% weapon damage
and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any
Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 36.
Lasts 10 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Analyzing Traker wws hemorrage contribution.
36per charge. Crit % multiplier. Wf 1.4 multiplier. I think there isnt Off-hand penalty.(tell me if I'm wrong)
With 100% Hemorrhage uptime(definetly way high, its bugged now and spells eat debuff)
Melee 118hits 34%crit = 5692 damage added.
Wf 65 hits 31% crit = 4291 damage added.
SS 30 hits 36% crit = 1469 damage added

Total 11451damage or 47dps.
#5509SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Hemorrhage(Rank 4)
35 Energy	                         5 yd range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
An instant strike that deals 125% weapon damage
and causes the target to hemorrhage, increasing any
Physical damage dealt to the target by up to 36.
Lasts 10 charges or 15 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Analyzing Traker wws hemorrage contribution.
36per charge. Crit % multiplier. Wf 1.4 multiplier. I think there isnt Off-hand penalty.(tell me if I'm wrong)
With 100% Hemorrhage uptime(definetly way high, its bugged now and spells eat debuff)
Melee 118hits 34%crit = 5692 damage added.
Wf 65 hits 31% crit = 4291 damage added.
SS 30 hits 36% crit = 1469 damage added

Total 11451damage or 47dps.
You are completely right. I wrote my post while walking out the door :P I thought hemorrage only amplified damage by 7! No real clue where I got that number from, unless it was the value at level 60.

The problem I have with totem twisting is that the easy way to do it is to tie it in with the stormstrike cooldown, but I like to save stormstrike to proc windfury, and i'd rather just keep WF up 100% than risk 60-80% WF uptime+ increased GCD tension for 60-80% uptime of GoA.
#5510SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Malan
Maybe I'm just not searching thoroughly but are there *any* helms out there without meta sockets that would be considered an upgrade from T4?

Also I just checked out the LootRank site and they've already added Melee Haste and done a quick fix in response to your post.
I checked when the ZA loot was first posted and it pretty much rules out all helms with no meta socket. Very annoying, it also made T4 shoulders worth an extra 24 AP (26 AP with kings) and I was stuck looking like some Karazhan reject for ages. S3 helm is pretty much the best upgrade but it looks even worse than T4.
#5511SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
I broke 2k dps on Teron the other week, and 1900ish on a couple other fights. DPS totals are somewhat subjective, though. The DPS of the other players in the raid will have a large affect on our personal DPS contribution. Also, don't be a softy. Haste Potions are like mini Bloodlusts. Drink that shit!

As far as rotations, I usually shock before re-dropping WF/GoA if the cooldown coincides with them fading. I've noticed the WF Totem buff seems to actually last longer than it's 10 second duration, so I usually prioritize it as follows: Stormstrike > Earth Shock/Flame Shock > Totems.
#5512SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
I only recently started twisting, since I had huge troubles keeping up with the mana usage before 2.3 (Paladins sucking at keeping JoW, I suppose). I'm having some troubles doing it and keeping up with shocking every cd though, I assume it IS possible to shock every cd, drop wf/go and ss without leaving the abilities off cooldown for too long?

Do people use a macro to twist or do they do it manually? I presume a lot of people use Disquette's addon (so do I) but maybe there are some tricks and tips to it that I'm just missing. All help is appreciated, really.
#5513SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0wirbelwind
[Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Tsunami Talisman] have 10% chance on your crit hit to increase attack power , when all raid buff I have 40+% crit , up to 4+% chance to increase attack power .

Quote: VIII.8 Itemization - Relic Slot
Assuming two 2.6 speed weapons, flurried to 2.0 speed, means you get around 10 white swings per SS cooldown. 40% of those swings will be WF, meaning 10 white swings, 2 SS swings, 4.8 WF swings. 10+2+4.8 = 16.8

16.8 * 6 = 100.8 ≈ 100 , means every min I have 4+ chance to increase attack power .

[Hourglass of the Unraveller] 264 EP = (( 32 * CritRating ) + ( 300 * 10 * 4 / 60 ))

[Tsunami Talisman] 316.66 EP = (( 10 * HitRating ) + ( 38 * CritRating ) + ( 340 * 10 * 4 / 60 ))
#5514SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Oscarvil
The spot you put your procrate is determined by the hidden cooldown of each of the trinkets, not your critrate.
#5515SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Retaliate
I've perused this post for probably 2 hours now looking for the breakdown of why WF is better in a certain group than GoA, or why WF is better for rogues/warriors than GoA.

I'm sure the math is here somewhere, I just cannot locate it. Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction?
#5516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
Having bit same issue with Malan, hard times replacing T4 helm. Grimguard from ZA should be upgrade for T4 helm even bit marginal along shoulders from bear boss in ZA. However T4 2p set bonus while being in melee group overshadows pretty much every other gear choices there is. 5x12str + 10% from BoK is raidwise better than any other combo available if I'm right.

Soloing, random heroics or kara badge runs(depending grp setup) grimguard + pauldrons of primal fury are bit better...

What comes to earlier discussion about shaman dps at my level of gear I managed to put out around 1050dps on Morogrim in SSC + searing was hitting over 210 on each tick. Managed to be #1 for our run (thanks for grp setup had agi totem :p). But looking class potential I should be doing somewhat less dps later on than rogues. I really wish that devs will change combat logging system along totems soon so can get my totem damage visible. Those fire totems do significant amount of damage.
#5517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
Originally Posted by Retaliate
I've perused this post for probably 2 hours now looking for the breakdown of why WF is better in a certain group than GoA, or why WF is better for rogues/warriors than GoA.
direction?
I'm following simple rule if there is 3+ classes in my team benefitting more from WF than GoA then I'll drop WF otherwise GoA.
#5518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Illundai
I only recently started twisting, since I had huge troubles keeping up with the mana usage before 2.3 (Paladins sucking at keeping JoW, I suppose). I'm having some troubles doing it and keeping up with shocking every cd though, I assume it IS possible to shock every cd, drop wf/go and ss without leaving the abilities off cooldown for too long?

Do people use a macro to twist or do they do it manually? I presume a lot of people use Disquette's addon (so do I) but maybe there are some tricks and tips to it that I'm just missing. All help is appreciated, really.
I tried making some time lines a while ago to figure out the optimum rotation and there is just not a way to get in a shock every cooldown while keeping wf/goa up(short of dropping wf/goa earlier than every 10 seconds, and there is no way in hell you will be able to sustain the mana for this).

I tried free twisting for a while by watching timer bars and I was having issues keeping the totems flowing due to various raiding distractions and switched to a macro that I could spam. It is entirely lazy but pretty stress free giving me assurance that the group will always have wf/goa at the cost of sub.5% of personal dps. You have a little bit of leeway as mentioned above, the WF buff takes longer than it lists to fade but I would only recommend halting the cycle if the cooldowns are right on top of each other, waiting any additional time to keep the totems going is a waste(all imo, of course!).

As for the water shield change, I don't really see it alleviating any of the GCD stress I have. So many things proc water shield in fights and I rarely get the full 1 minute tick off on any sort of occasion that it would save me a GCD with a 10 minute timer.
#5519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0mek
Originally Posted by Mulgero
I'm following simple rule if there is 3+ classes in my team benefitting more from WF than GoA then I'll drop WF otherwise GoA.
This is completely backwards. WF is one of the most powerful buffs in the game, and due to its scaling it wildly outstrips the potential of GOA in a level-capped situation when everyone's all done up in purples. If anyone in your group can benefit from WF, it's likely that you should be dropping WF.

Which classes benefit from GoA over WF?
  • Hunters and their pets (especially survival hunters in a 25man setting, GoA buffs their expose weakness)
  • Feral druids
  • Yourself
  • Poorly-geared rogues (or possibly mutilate rogues in a 5man setting)
  • Tanking warriors in a situation where threat is irrelevant
This is already a small section of the population. More importantly, the benefit of GoA remains static; WF is a multiplier. It can also significantly increase the threat generation of a warrior, and consequently everyone's dps ceiling. The MT group is not dps optimal for you, but it frequently is for the raid.

Generally, if there is one warrior in your group, whatever benefit GoA may give the rest of the group is outweighed by WF's benefit for them. And you should ALWAYS have a warrior in your group, as their battle shout does way more for you than your GoA would - it's a tradeoff you should be happy to make. If you're so thirsty for that extra crit, you should look into twisting.
#5520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
Originally Posted by Illundai
I assume it IS possible to shock every cd, drop wf/go and ss without leaving the abilities off cooldown for too long?
It is as 16/45/0. SS-shock-WF-GoA-shock-repeat. Without totemic focus you'd need a ton of incoming mana to sustain it, but it's doable.

As enh/resto you get into a logjam with the global cooldown if you try to shock every 6 seconds.

0.0s - WF
1.5s - GoA
3.0s - shock
4.5s - stormstrike
9.0s- (shock is up, but shocking will push back your next WF totem)
10.0s - WF
11.5s - GoA
13.0s - shock
14.5s- stormstrike
19.0s- (shock is up, but will push back your WF totem)
20.0s- WF
21.5s- GoA
23.0s- shock
24.5s- stormstrike
29.0s- (shock is up, but shocking will push back your next WF totem)
---cycle starts over---
30.0s- WF
31.5s- GoA
33.0s- shock
34.5s- stormstrike
....

If you recast your air totems every 10 seconds exactly, you shock every 10 seconds maximum.


EDIT: If you're willing to accept a half-second of no WF totem once every 30 seconds, you can thread in a 4th shock and shock about every 7.5 seconds. Probably worth it if you've got the mana.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/11/07 at 7:00 AM.
#5521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
WF scales with gear, but so does GoA to some extent. Added crit to any AP class scales. You have 1500 AP and the added crit gives you X added damage. 2000 AP and the added crit gives you Y added damage where Y > X.That being said, I agree that WF probably is the best totem to pop in most groups where one class can benefit from it. I don't agree with this being the only option as DPS warriors can be threat capped and you have three hunters in your group drooling over GoA and dropping their threat at alarming levels.

Old and pretty boring discussion, I know. I'm at "I ask the group". Some warriors even ask me to pop tranq once in a blue moon.

One thing to add to the list, mek: GoA for avoidance. In fights where the boss/mobs hits like a train or the tank is under-geared.
#5522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vernius
Fantastic thread.

Great job to all those who've spent the time, crunched the numbers, and had enough love for this class to figure out how the heck enhancement shamans can be great contributors to a guild.

Although I just registered today, I've been reading this thread for quite a while. I have to say I got kind of >sniff< emotional, when I first stumbled into here, and found a whole damn herd (apologies to my fellow Tauren) of enhancement shamans who could understand the different issues I had been dealing with in order to be viable.

Since then, this has been an inexaustable resource for all of my concerns and questions, and acts as my own personal WoW Dear Abby. Once again, to all of you who've help my toon be more deadly in PVP, and get pretty high on the who-do-we-want-in-the-raid chart,

/salute
#5523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Got an ideal group last night (Rogue, 2 Warriors, Druid). Broke 1000 dps for the first time. Thanks to everyone here for helping me get strong through maths and impeccable grammar.
#5524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Boethius changed the LaTeX module for the forums last night and it broke a lot of my equations, bear with me while I get them fixed over the next few days.

This is in preparation for the Theorycraft Think Tank (the wiki project) to open which should hopefully be very very soon. I gave up trying to keep the wiki article updated at the same time as this one about 2 months ago, so the wiki article is horribly outdated right now and might be in bad shape when the wiki goes live.
#5525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I broke 2k dps on Teron the other week, and 1900ish on a couple other fights. DPS totals are somewhat subjective, though. The DPS of the other players in the raid will have a large affect on our personal DPS contribution. Also, don't be a softy. Haste Potions are like mini Bloodlusts. Drink that shit!
Originally Posted by Traker
Also, I can only DREAM about our feral druid keeping faerie fire up :/
My best on teron was 1755, using everything available. Though I think there was no CoR on the boss. The next time there was no feral druid and his faerie fire, I didn't reach more than 1500 doing the same thing (might be possible that it was because the randomness of our dps). Traker, shout at your druids if they don't do their job.
#5526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I broke 2k dps on Teron the other week, and 1900ish on a couple other fights. DPS totals are somewhat subjective, though. The DPS of the other players in the raid will have a large affect on our personal DPS contribution. Also, don't be a softy. Haste Potions are like mini Bloodlusts. Drink that shit!
Originally Posted by Traker
Also, I can only DREAM about our feral druid keeping faerie fire up :/
My best on teron was 1755, using everything available. Though I think there was no CoR on the boss. The next time there was no feral druid and his faerie fire, I didn't reach more than 1500 doing the same thing (might be possible that it was because the randomness of our dps). Traker, shout at your druids if they don't do their job.
#5527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Acks
Originally Posted by Myul

Is Grimgrin really this bad? I calculated the AEP values and it seems like its one of the best options in the game. Certainly better than T4 or the Coif, no?

I suppose the real question is: What is a good estimate for AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond given T5ish gear? If its not over 50, then the Grimgrin is even better than T6 according to my (probably horribly wrong) math.
#5528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
I hate that this post seems over simplified and on the border of reportable, but the following is the best way I can figure to say it.


Meta = win.

You should be critting enough that the 3% is a pretty huge upgrade, there are similar talks going on in the feral druid thread, but yes, the meta is that good.

Ok, there I think I explained it enough to make it not sound like a bullshit post.
#5529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Regarding Twisting, GCDs and Shocks:
I've been trying twisting with GoA/Tranquil and I've been pretty pleased with the results. DisquoDice is pretty damn good. I have been running into the same issues with shock timing. Encounter mechanics usually prevent a perfect twisting situation, which is standing in one place, and hitting something. I've been getting better at it, and the only advice I can give is: make every GCD count.

Firstly, it's best to drop the twisted totem right after Windfury. This means you need 2 GCDs to refresh the Windfury buff and restore the twisted totem. Using DisquoDice, you can look at the shock/SS bars and see about how soon they will be available, relative to each-other. You can also take a look at the WF cooldown bar. SS and Shock frequently come up near each-other, so usually you need 2 GCDs to keep those up, too. What you want to avoid is a situation where you are delaying abilities due to the GCD on others. Windfury totem is critical, Stormstrike is damn important (other people use my SS charges), and shocks are also important to proc the totem. The least important thing on the list is the twisted totem. If you need an extra few GCDs, leave Windfury down for another 5s to get another pulse (Pulses every 5, buff lasts 10). The situation you want to avoid most is leaving down the twisted totem and letting Windfury fall off, so if you are looking at DQD and it looks like there is a GCD-cluster-f**k coming up. Drop Windfury early, do your SS/shocks, refresh other totems or whatever, and then keep twisting.

In the end it's playstyle and practice. I try to lay non-twisted totems while moving, if the encounter mechanics allow for it. Example: Void Reaver, when stepping back out of the pounding, refresh mana/str/searing. It's just a matter of trying to not let the abilities that need refreshing stack up on you.
#5530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0inomen
Hi, I am having some trouble getting the most out of my guilds enhancement Shammy. he is one of the highest attendance members in the guild and I'd like to have him included in our Kael fight but his DPS is just to low to merit the spot while we learn the fight. SSC WWS here is the most recent clear of SSC and Kael WWS is the most recent attempts on Kael with him there. A few things to note about him; he tanks the mace in Phase 2, he does the dagger debuff on Thaladred in Phase 3, and he does twist totems. Here is his Armory, I would like any advice you have that you could give him to improve his performance in the Kael fight.
#5531SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
Im not really sure what you want from him. You have him doing a lot of different rolls, of course his dps is gonna be pretty low. Especially with totem twisting you have to factor in how much he's giving the rest of the group(if its a well placed melee group with warrior and rogues itll be several hundred dps at least, probably more around 1k),

He'll also do very minimal dmg on thaladred. Do you not have another warrior who could apply the dagger? Its a really rough job for a shaman, especially since you want him giving melee totems.
#5532SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I took a look at his actions on Kael attempt #9, using the Browse Combat Log, and you've got some problems here.

There's a good chance that your log is bad, there seems to be a lot of shit missing from just the first page of it. The log shows him doing brief damage to Thaladred, a few hits on Sanguinar, Flame Shocks on Capernian (you should brow beat him for being in range of her, that's really fucking stupid), and then suddenly jumps to him hitting the Cosmic Infuser.

Either your log is bad, or your shaman went afk for huge stretches at a time.

His DPS is going to *drop* from using the dagger. Have a Rogue or a Warrior handle that role. It doesn't look like he had Battle Shout the entire attempt. That's bad.

[e] Good god he was meleeing Capernian as well. Good grief, you need to have a talk with this guy. The further into the log I browse its definitely a combination of the log being fucked up, and him running around not knowing what to do apparently.
#5533SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0inomen
Yeah we tried to cut town on the number of tanks in there, we run 3, so he tanks the mace. I guess I'm wondering if 500 dps is good or is there something I can get him to do to improve his damage or would it be worth having an extra prot warrior in there to do the same jobs as well as dispelling MC's and helping pick up the birds. and as for him being afk, for Phase 1 none of the meele really does anything.
#5534SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
No he should be doing a hell of a lot better than 500 DPS on that fight with the gear he's got.

I hear what you are saying about Phase 1, however, there is no record of him even hitting Telonicus in phase 1, and barely any record of him hitting Sanguinar (like 5 hits... that's it). Either he DCd off an on during the fight, or he was afk, or whoever did your logging doesn't have their log set to 200 yards. One or more of those things are true. Either way he shouldn't be meleeing Capernian as that's just asking to die.
#5535SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
Also, you said you run 3 tanks, that should be good enough for all the weapons. He shouldnt have to tank something, but if you have him tanking something, thats fine, just prepare to have his dps be slightly lower during that part(only if hes smart and using watching his hp, pots and healthstones). But for the most part he should be able to do dps then. More then likely I have to agree with Malan, and say your combat log is screwed.
#5536SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hamilburg
I'm also going to go out on a limb here and guess that your Shaman is throwing on a shield for tanking the mace. Cutting to just phase 2 of attempt 9 - Wow Web Stats
all of his hits and crits are in the same damage range which certainly seems to indicate 1h weapon activity.

So to recap - Phase 1 - subject to all the woes that melee are, only being able to DPS 2 of the 4 bosses
Phase 2 - tanking, 1h and shield
Phase 3 - chasing Telonicus
Phase 4+-..?
Wow Web Stats
Doesn't seem so bad to me.

Bar issues with meleeing Capernian and being stuck on a role that he is VERY poorly suited for (dagger on Thaladred)
Hiplainsdrif - WWS
(Being unable to get any sort of runspeed buff makes switching targets atrociously hard)

Here is a cut of my own raid's second Kael kill:
Wow Web Stats
My DPS shows decently
Looking at specifically phase 4 (may not have clipped it exactly so some of Phase 5 is in there)
Wow Web Stats
Your shaman's DPS when given free reign to DPS is in fact better than mine. If you're worried about his DPS I can say reasonably that it is because you are squashing his DPS on portions of the fight where he can contribute rather than having him just stick with melee for totems/Unleashed Rage. (Also note, my parse cuts out phase 1)
#5537SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Have your shaman tank the staff, not the mace. The mace hits for almost 1k more from what I remember. The staff is easily tankable without a shield and just full burning it with late-cast interrupts.

Don't grab any of the weapons. The dagger is a dps drop, and you hurt people a lot more when dispelling MC then a rogue or warrior would. The axe gives some big numbers and isn't better then normal DW.
#5538SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
Your shaman seems fine in SSC. As for kael...

I notice your rogues don't do a lot of damage to Telonicus either. I also notice your shaman is barely under your rogues, despite being given a couple jobs where he couldn't fully dps.

The only time I can actually find him meleeing Capernian appears to be while a wipe is in progress. Looks to me like he's committing suicide, which is exactly what he should be doing. 27k damage on Capernian is probably the 5% of his damage that's coming from lightning bolt/chain lightning. Edit: nevermind, Malan's right, he's trying to melee Capernian. And not dying every time he does it. There's no justice in the world.

By the way, having your shaman put on a shield in phase 2 and then keep the dagger debuff on Thaladred in phase 3 is going to absolutely fuck his mana. He's blowing shamanistic rage in phase 2 when he doesn't have an offhand equipped, and then he's not getting enough melee presence to get a good shamanistic rage off in phase 3. He'll do a lot better if you take him off one of those jobs, or just let him tank the mace without a shield. My guild used a similar setup to control the mace, only I didn't have a shield on and the rogue was throwing stuns. Tell Vasher to stunlock the mace (which he's not doing according to WWS and I can't imagine why not) and tell Hiplainsdrif not to put a shield on and I think it'll work out better.

You're posting a WWS of your guild wiping on the melee-unfriendly portion of Kael'thas, you have your enh shaman in a utility role that gimps his DPS for most of the fight, and you're saying he doesn't do enough DPS. It's like bringing an OT prot warrior to Lurker for the adds, and then dropping him when his dps on Lurker isn't high enough. Unless I missed something your shaman is doing his job, it's just that the job you've given him doesn't involve dealing much damage. Edit: Well, he's doing his job except that he's meleeing Capernian, so yeah, you should probably smack him in the head a few times before you bring him back to Kael.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/12/07 at 9:23 AM.
#5539SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Lujaar
The only time I can actually find him meleeing Capernian appears to be while a wipe is in progress. Looks to me like he's committing suicide, which is exactly what he should be doing. 27k damage on Capernian is probably the 5% of his damage that's coming from lightning bolt/chain lightning.
Negative, check attempt #9 in the first 5 minutes of the fight, and he's meleeing on Capernian in Phase 1, and that attempt goes well into Phase 4.
#5540SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sufferings
I have been doing a lot of research looking at other shamans weapon combos, trying to figure out what I should do next, if anything. Currently, I use Dragonstrike/Syphon. A second syphon would go to me, next time it drops (more than likely), but one other warrior is interested in Rising Tide, but I would get that if he wasn't around that night. Granted, I am talking about if I want them.

I did some testing on blasted lands mobs just to see my proc ration of MH to OH windfurry with the Dragonstrike/Syphon combo. I did this by just tallying the WFers as they procced manually. After all that testing, it rounded out to about 3 MH procs to every 4 OH procs, so in other words, I am getting a decent amount of OH procs.

So, here is the real question....for those of you that are this anal about testing this stuff, whats your ratio of MH to OH procs? I don't like getting more OH procs than MH, but I don't want to freak out about it. And if so, what would be the best combo to go with? I see and read a lot of people here that use RT/Syphon, but some people also use dual Syphons. I understand that by using a slightly slower weapons speed in your MH, you would achieve more MH procs, but with a 2.7/2.8 combo like I am using, I am not getting that so far.

My dps on fights like Terron hang around the 1300 range (last Terron kill). My group is almost always two rogues and two DW warriors.

Thoughts? I know this question has been tossed around a lot, just want to get as many peoples opinions as possible.
#5541SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Karok(EU)
I've been an avid theorycrafter but lately I've begun to notice something odd.

While putting in my stats in Yo!'s sim and I allways seem to get absurdly high AEP values for Hit rating.

The stats in question: (totally unbuffed, not even totems, kings not added either)
1636 AP 30,1% crit, 6,53% hit (103 rating), 4,31% haste, 175 ArP, Dragonstrike + Rod of the Sun King and Ashtongue trinket (see armory link..)
In the buff section I assumed BoM, MotW, SoE, a flask and +20str Food)

The gear is mostly MH/BT gear with some residual t4/5 items.

The AEP values I get are:

AP: 1
Crit: 2.21
Hit: 3.88
Haste: 1.8
Agi: 1.95

Whilst all stats appear to be reasonably within bounds of the suggested AEP values of the first post the hit rating jumps out considerably. So either I am messing up with the input, the sim is wrong or hit rating does increasingly become more valuable as the other stats go up (which doesn't sound all that illogical actually).

Do other "end-game" shamans get similar results?

Edit: *Facepalm*

Ok now getting :

AP: 1
Str: 2
Crit: 2.08
Hit: 1.88
Haste: 1.82
Agi: 1.84

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/12/07 at 12:36 AM.
#5542SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Do you have the AP->Spell damage setting turned on? (could be a bug)
Also, are you entering your hit % into the sim including your 9% from talents? If you only enter what your actual rating from gear is I could maybe see the sim saying "whoah this guy needs hit rating bad."
#5543SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Karok(EU)
I've been an avid theorycrafter but lately I've begun to notice something odd.

While putting in my stats in Yo!'s sim and I allways seem to get absurdly high AEP values for Hit rating.

The stats in question: (totally unbuffed, not even totems, kings not added either)
1636 AP 30,1% crit, 6,53% hit (103 rating), 4,31% haste, 175 ArP, Dragonstrike + Rod of the Sun King and Ashtongue trinket (see armory link..)
In the buff section I assumed BoM, MotW, SoE, a flask and +20str Food)

The gear is mostly MH/BT gear with some residual t4/5 items.

The AEP values I get are:

AP: 1
Crit: 2.21
Hit: 3.88
Haste: 1.8
Agi: 1.95

Whilst all stats appear to be reasonably within bounds of the suggested AEP values of the first post the hit rating jumps out considerably. So either I am messing up with the input, the sim is wrong or hit rating does increasingly become more valuable as the other stats go up (which doesn't sound all that illogical actually).

Do other "end-game" shamans get similar results?
I don't. Hit is either on the same level or a tiny(.05-.1) better than the 2ish that crit/str/agi/haste for valued me.
#5544SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Just a random thought I had on the drive home from work, brought about from the fact that I wanted to justify using the [Brooch of Deftness] instead of [Pendant of the Perilous]. (and yes, I know that's a horrible thing to do - start with a conclusion and then build support for it :p ).

Anyway, expertise is a smidge better than we have it listed now because of the stormstrike bug. To illustrate, take the following reductio ad absurdum example in which a mob has a 50% chance to dodge you.

Assume:
50% will be dodge/parry
main hand and offhand have same weapon. MH averages 2dmg, so OH averages exactly 1dmg.

Thought experiment:
swing 100 times. How much damage will you do?

50 Main hand stormstrikes will land for a total of 100 damage
of the 50 MH hits, 50% of the OH SS's will also be dodged, so you will do 2 * 50 * 50% * 50% (OH penalty and dodges) = 25 damage.
For a grand total of 125 damage.

Note that if you had no dodge/parries, this would be 2 * 100 + 1 * 100 = 300 damage.

Because of the stormstrike bug in which the OH only swings if the MH lands, increasing expertise has a "coefficient-greater-than-(1+critRate)" effect on yellow damage compared to white.

Does it matter much? Meh, not really, but in the interest of completeness I figured I'd throw this out there as another "shaman mechanics are pretty screwed up" note. It's probably something like .01 or .02 additional value we should assign to the expertise rating, which is beyond the rounding most people use anyway.

Last edited by Disquette : 12/12/07 at 9:11 AM.
#5545SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
The idea is not that far fetched, Disquette. Me and my resto kin are gathering heavy haste and +heal gear alongside "normal" +heal/mp5 gear for when we have the need for insane HPS or if we have a shadow priest to suck mana from. Potentially there could be fights where a boss had some parry/dodge bonus where AEP values would differ a lot from the norm. Food for thought.
#5546SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
Originally Posted by Malan
Negative, check attempt #9 in the first 5 minutes of the fight, and he's meleeing on Capernian in Phase 1, and that attempt goes well into Phase 4.
Eww.

Yeah, I missed that. I just checked the Capernian deaths and went back a bit. I guess I've never actually tried to melee Capernian when I wasn't trying to speed up a wipe, but I just assumed that he wouldn't be able to do it and live.
#5547SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ambika
Originally Posted by Unaz
Have your shaman tank the staff, not the mace. The mace hits for almost 1k more from what I remember. The staff is easily tankable without a shield and just full burning it with late-cast interrupts.
this is what our guild does for Kael. We shove the shaman to help the warrior pull the staff down and handle interupts. From there he does nothing but beat on stuff with full dps gear on for the rest of the fight.

Then again we run with 4 tanks+1 dps warrior who throws on a shield for part of that fight to 'tank'.


Don't grab any of the weapons. The dagger is a dps drop, and you hurt people a lot more when dispelling MC then a rogue or warrior would. The axe gives some big numbers and isn't better then normal DW.
once phase 4 hits it's all the other warrior/rogues job to run around stabby stabby the mind controlled people. Let the enhancement shaman burn full bore on kael+eggs. If you have spare shamans have them throw down earthbind to slow other folks down (might work, just thought of it now). Let those with intercept/sprint/stuns handle the MC folks. Might cut into their dps but rogues>shamans for this thing as the dagger will more than likely be a weapon they choose instead of one for the shaman which is a big downgrade.
#5548SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
You have a shaman who's out-damaging ALL of your rogues, a guy who never once died early and you're wondering if he's pulling his weight?

Yeah, his numbers seem a little low, but damn, you want to work with this guy. He's obviously a good player.
#5549SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Originally Posted by Acks
Is Grimgrin really this bad? I calculated the AEP values and it seems like its one of the best options in the game. Certainly better than T4 or the Coif, no?

I suppose the real question is: What is a good estimate for AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond given T5ish gear? If its not over 50, then the Grimgrin is even better than T6 according to my (probably horribly wrong) math.
Ignoring the RED, Grimgrin Faceguard is slighty worse than Forest Prowler's Helm and slighty better than Skyshatter Cover and Coif of the Jungle Stalker.

But just tell us what's your EP for? I use a regulary a "2,2 Str 2 Agi 0 Stam 0 Int 2 Crit 2 Hit 1 AP 2 Haste 0,3 Arp" string for comparison and all sockets are epic.

Using lower assumptions will not bring such a different result that it's worth considering Grimgrin Faceguard.

RED should be anywhere between 40-80 score points. With "2,2 Str 1,5 Agi 0 Stam 0 Int 1,5 Crit 1,4 Hit 1 Ap1,5 Haste 0,25 Arp" the score difference between T4 and the ugly leather mask is ~ 65 for rare gems.

And please notice that you should substract between 0,1 and 0,2 from the non-ap/str values to simulate the worth of your Mental Agility Talent.
#5550SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0adversary
should i trade in my double syphon maces for the new season 3 weapons?
#5551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Fola
Originally Posted by adversary
should i trade in my double syphon maces for the new season 3 weapons?

I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup.

Last edited by Fola : 12/12/07 at 2:16 PM. Reason: spelling
#5552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Note, [Deathblow X11 Goggles] are not an option for Shaman, as Mail wearing engineers can only make the MAIL items

Last edited by Mengus : 12/12/07 at 4:05 PM.
#5553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Nemaa
Originally Posted by Fola
I tried searching armory to look at your gear to run the simulation, but I don't seem to be able to find your character on US or Europe. I couldn't find an armory link in your profile either. I would be curious also if you have any WWS charts that include the proc effect of the Syphons in a duel wield setup.
DW Syphon's proc damage is about 3000-4000 damage on an 5 minute fight. It isn't a considerable amount of damage.

edit:
Log from today's ~3 minute Teron fight 2315 damage

Last edited by Nemaa : 12/12/07 at 4:50 PM.
#5554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
#5555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
#5556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by spanko
Two questions about the Sim Yo!. First how come Band of the Eternal Champion is there but greyed out? Second, any chance you can add [Berserker's Call] to the trinket options?
Add 150 to your AP for [Berserker's Call] and [Band of the Eternal Champion]'s passive proc is about 26.6 AP, add it as well to your ap.

Yo: Thanks for the update!
#5557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0adversary
Originally Posted by Paradox
Use the simulator and see if it's an upgrade? Christ. You don't even deserve those weapons...
i think i deserve my double syphons more than someone that is dumb enough to use the 40 critical strike trinket, rather than the 80 atk power trinket for pvp. :P

but anyway i think im going to probably do MH syphon and OH s3
#5558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Ok the Wiki is supposedly going live on Monday. The wiki article that I labored on months ago is horribly out of date and I really don't feel like bringing it back in line with this thread. So I'm going to just copy this over it and change everything over to the wiki format.

That said, I need to know how people feel about things, whether I should move/rearrange content around to flow better. Basically do things make sense organizationally?

Also note that over in the wiki I will have Moderator status and can delete stupid posts.
#5559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo!
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
Awesome! Thanks Yo!
#5560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Oscarwilde
I'm interested in validating some AEP results from Yo's simulator for my shaman. as a reference, here are his stats:

Power
1322
Hit Rating:
134
Crit Chance:
26.61%
Expertise:
0

armory: The World of Warcraft Armory


what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT.

cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP? IE: am I reading/using the numbers right, or not taking into account the value of crit through flurry and UR ? :P

Last edited by Oscarwilde : 12/12/07 at 6:35 PM.
#5561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
#5562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Test with Yo's simulator shows that mongoose > executioner with almoust any gear level. Highend raid values and Cor up its can be possible. With default values but scaling armor penetration you need 3200armor penetration to get executioned to par with mongoose. I would likely see if anyone will get Executioner > mongoose with own gear from Yo's sim.
I'm only getting a 1 dps (mongoose > executioner) difference with 399 armor pen on a 3690 armor mob(7700-800-610-2600). When I switch my ring/trinket out for more optimum ones executioner takes the lead by 1 dps.
#5563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Yo,

Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
And perhaps the new badge totem aswell?
And ofcourse thanks for the update

@ Oscarwilde: Its in the nature of %'s to scale. So the more AP you get the more valuable crit, hit, expertise, armor penetration (reduces enemy damage migitation by a % depending on its current armor) will become.
2k AP unbuffed will be quite high I recon, even in BT gear. However in a raid you can add a huge portion to that from raid buffs, procs, consumables and ofcourse your own str totem .
#5564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Karok(EU)
Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
This has been noted several times. Take the "over time" EP value of the trinket and add it to your attack power as a static value.
#5565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Oscarwilde
what im curious to know is the break even point between crit and AP. according to yo's simulator, at my current gear level AP/strength is valued higher than my crit (running at ~27%) until I approach 2k AP unbuffed. I would think that 2k AP unbuffed is quite a high goal to reach, even being in BT.
This is not surprising. AP/Strength has consistently been one of the best uses of item budget for enhancement shamans. Patch 2.3 only improved the value of AP/Strength by making it affect our shocks as well as our melee damage. While the 2.2 version of Yo's sim told me that without BoK, crit rating was superior to strength, the 2.3 version is telling me that strength is superior even without BoK.
cutting to the point, am I truly getting the most DPS at my current gear level keeping 26% crit and 1.3k AP or, going against yo's simulator, would I get more out of 30% AP and 1.1-1.2AP?
Run both numbers through the sim, find out which has higher DPS. Evaluate upgrades using EP numbers the sim gives. As your gear improves, I would expect you to reach about 1600 AP and 30% crit, at which point you'll start seeing crit rating and haste rating being nearly as good as Strength.
#5566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Yo!
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
Great to see you're back in action. Thanks for this latest update. I'll make a couple functionality requests in order of importance to me:
1) Support expertise/expertise rating, both in DPS calculation and EP calculation. (When you do, I'd enjoy some commentary on how you're calculating EP as well.)
2) Allow people to select the number of talent points in Reverberation, Concussion, and Elemental Devastation.
3) Add Stonebreaker's Totem to the totem selection options. (Yes, we could just manually add 35 AP to our AP, but I'd rather use the interface.)
4) UI clean-up. This is the least exciting task probably. I'd suggest going to something like this:
Tab 1: "Stats & EP Values"
Tab 2: "Enchants & Procs" (move shocks/min to Tab 1 and move Talents to its own tab)
Tab 3: "Talents"
Tab 4: "Buffs & Debuffs" (allow us to set boss debuffs such as CoR, FF, SA on this page... probably move Boss Armor input here too, though I'm not 100% sure what makes the most sense from a design standpoint)
Tab 5: "Import/Export"
Tab 6: "Forensic Report"

Obviously, any improvements you're able to make are always welcome, and thanks again for your service to the community.

Originally Posted by Malan
This has been noted several times. Take the "over time" EP value of the trinket and add it to your attack power as a static value.
Technically, this only works nicely for the AP use trinkets... for Abacus, you'd want to take the haste percentage over time and add it as a static value. Not a really big deal though. Definitely at the bottom of my feature request list.
#5567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Edit: Posted one too many times. Delete.
#5568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0SentinelBorg
Originally Posted by Yo!
++ Improved EP calculation with 30%AP to spell damage talent option selected so that it is much more stable now
+ 30%AP to spell damage is now "on" by default
+ Changed default resistances to 0 as in game
+ Added "Average number of shocks that you perform over 2 minutes" field (how to find it - get your combat log, divide number of shocks performed by combat duration in seconds and multiply by 120; why 2 minutes - because many abilities that may intervent shocks rotation via global cooldown are on 2 min timer)
+ Added Executioner enchant option (same 1 ppm as mongoose, same 15 sec duration, non-stackable)
There must be a bug in the UR calculations. Disabling it, only decreases my DPS by a small value. I discovered it a few days ago, before the new version, but it hasn't changed.

I used following values for the simulation (5000 hrs):

Stats top to bottom: 1700, 32, 21, 2, 4000, 250, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 100.2, 2.8, 0, 3, 6
Procs: Dual Windfury and Mongoose, DST and Tsunami, no Totem, T6 4pc, no shocks
Buffs: Default with no Potion and active Battleshout

With UR I get 1331 DPS, without 1324. If I manually add 200 AP it results in 1392 DPS.

Also it would be nice if the nerfed proc chance of Ashtongue Talisman (50%) could be implemented.
#5569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Btw Seems that MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News is up for enhancement Shamans.

Most of the gear choices there provide the same choices as I got from Yo's sim.
#5570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
How are they calculating that stuff?
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas
There's the page with their formulas.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but look this bit from the Windfury DPS code.
$procRate = ((1/$MHspeed)+(1/$OHspeed))*.20;
For 2x 2.6 weapons that means $procRate = 0.1538, which doesn't seem right.

[e] Ok I sent the site author an email and asked him to post here explaining how his system works. Its quite clear that he's not doing a combat simulation but his item rankings are *spot on* with what Yo's sim is giving me.
[e2] If this is really as accurate as it *seems* to be at first glance, this guy has discovered some magical formulas that might actually enable us to just use a spreadsheet instead of a sim.

Last edited by Malan : 12/13/07 at 9:06 AM.
#5571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
That sim seems to be undervaluing armor penetration, to me. Anyone else noticed this as well?
#5572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Armor Pen on it looks fine to me, its saying with my stats that 10 armor penetration is a 7 DPS increase, which is much more than any of the other stats it shows. The item lists line up almost exactly with what my simulator EP values give.
#5573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Xoya
That's 100 armor pentetration, not 10.. when I divide the numbers out for my gear, I get:

1 str = .615; 1 armor pen = .0738

If we extrapolate into EP, where 1 str = 2.2, then armor pen = 0.264.

For comparison, my numbers are what's on my Armory profile:

1560 AP, 118 HR, 31.48 crit, 37 haste, 3500 boss armor, 168 armor pen, 0 expertise rating, and 468 magic damage, with everything but Totem of the Astral Winds checked.

Edit to add: in addition, if I increase my armor penetration to 1000, then armor pen becomes worth 0.28 relative to strength.

Last edited by Xoya : 12/13/07 at 10:32 AM.
#5574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Well note that the MaxDPS page is using 3500 as the default boss armor but Yo has it set to 4400, so the comparison might be off from that too.
#5575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
The main problem I've found with armor pen on maxdps is that it doesnt increase dmg from more armor pen based on how much armor pen you already have. So even if you get the boss to 0 armor, armor pen is still worth the same as having him at 3500 armor. Its just a static value based off your other stats.
#5576SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lambach
The main problem I've found with armor pen on maxdps is that it doesnt increase dmg from more armor pen based on how much armor pen you already have. So even if you get the boss to 0 armor, armor pen is still worth the same as having him at 3500 armor. Its just a static value based off your other stats.
#5577SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Bragor
Btw Seems that MaxDPS.com: A World of Warcraft Formula Site - News is up for enhancement Shamans.

Most of the gear choices there provide the same choices as I got from Yo's sim.
Interesting, since he doesn't have the windfury 3 second cooldown implemented.

He doesn't have the stormstrike bug implemented

He has no section for raid debuffs

I don't think he has enchants on there (mongoose/crusader)

He makes no differentiation of offhand and mainhand WF procs due to weapon speeds

He doesn't increase dual wielding WF rate to 36% (instead of 20%)

His simulator is incredibly basic compared to Yo's. Interesting that your gear choices were the same.

Last edited by Disquette : 12/13/07 at 12:08 PM.
#5578SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Like I said, I sent him an email asking him to explain how he has it working.
#5579SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
the formulas he's shown so far, on which I've based my objections and let him know:
MaxDPS.com - View topic - Enhancement Shaman Formulas

Also, I just put in my stats. The only 2 differences between importing Yo!'s rankings into lootzor/thottbot versus this site (in terms of actual rankings) were ring and boots.

This is for the #1 spot only. I didn't look at the rankings below the #1 spot.

Also, this site is neat in that it lets us know that if we could use the rogue set armor, slayer's, that we'd have upgrades in 4 of the 5 slots compared to what's available now (and the 5th slot is the helm, in which only the Illidan drop cursed-vision is better than the slayer's gear).

GG @ itemization.
#5580SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Most items won't shuffle around too much for us I'd imagine, unless they were already really close on stats. These quirks that define our dps are significant when added up, but when you look at items individually, they aren't going to easily push around the item order due to things like stormstrike missing based on main hand hits etc.

Also yeah, there's even some really nice feral druid stuff that I see popping up in thottbot item weight searches.
#5581SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette
Also, this site is neat in that it lets us know that if we could use the rogue set armor, slayer's, that we'd have upgrades in 4 of the 5 slots compared to what's available now (and the 5th slot is the helm, in which only the Illidan drop cursed-vision is better than the slayer's gear).

GG @ itemization.
The really sad and disappointing thing is that holds true for some of the hunter and druid PvP gear. Compare [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Tunic] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Chain Armor] to [Skyshatter Tunic], the helms from those sets to [Skyshatter Cover], and [Vengeful Gladiator's Dragonhide Spaulders] to [Skyshatter Pauldrons]. The legs are a wash with Skyshatter in terms of DPS stats. So 4/5 of our tier gear is so badly itemized that PvP gear from other classes is preferable. It's not even an item level issue, since the items are all level 146 and have the same number of sockets (though not color).
#5582SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ujai
Originally Posted by Disquette
the formulas he's shown so far, on which I've based my objections and let him know:
Also, I just put in my stats. The only 2 differences between importing Yo!'s rankings into lootzor/thottbot versus this site (in terms of actual rankings) were ring and boots.

This is for the #1 spot only. I didn't look at the rankings below the #1 spot.
That may be due to the fact that there are only so many best items in the game; they just cannot really vary alot after all.

What I find interesting though, is that this site puts the bagde leather items (with haste) MUCH higher than Yo's Sim would suggest.
#5583SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Kahdrick
I've been following this thread for some time (long-time reader, first-time poster), and I haven't seen anything that mentioned additional gear for an enhance shaman, such as bringing a healing weapon and shield in case of emergencies. Frankly, these situations come up most often in 5-man heroics, and less and less often in 10 mans and 25 mans, but they still come up. Here are my thoughts on the matter:

Simply put: An enhance shaman should always carry at least a main hand healing weapon and a healing shield in their bags for use in emergencies.

Here's my reasoning:
Always carry a shield in case you need to off-tank a hard-hitting mob or for those "oh crap" situations where you either pull aggro or the tank dies. Combined with the 30% damage reduction from shamanistic rage, you should easily be able to survive for 30 seconds just as well as any tank (ample time for a tank to get the threat back if you stop attacking, or for someone else more suitable for long-term tanking to get aggro).

In cases where you do pull aggro - STOP ATTACKING. Just spam LHW on yourself and hope you don't die. If you keep attacking, your threat will skyrocket (especially now that you've popped shamrage) and it will be that much harder for someone to pull the mob off of you.

You may even want to carry two or three shields, if bag space is not a concern for you. One shield for elemental dps use in situations where melee is impossible (time to kill Krosh Firehand and Maulgar is in the middle of WW), one shield for healing (a healer died, or your healing just needs a little push for a while), and one shield for off-tanking (oh shit!). I've found that by far the most use I get out of a shield is healing, and the 2nd most is tanking. I almost never do elemental dps. Thus, I recommend carrying only one shield, a healing shield, if bag space is a concern. This will still provide the armor mitigation (significant mitigation) and will allow you the +healing stats you need for healing, without providing the very modest +block and +block value increases.

Additional MH weapons for use with a shield are also good. When tanking, your highest dps weapon will also be your highest threat generation weapon, so you don't need a separate weapon for that. In oh shit situations, you shouldn't be attacking, so it doesn't matter what is in your main hand (remove your weapon completely in case you die so that you save gold on repairs). For elemental dps, you will want a +damage weapon, but since my experience is that enhance shamans almost never use elemental dps, there's really no need to take up your bag space with this. Thus, you should carry a healing MH item, which are easy to find. Since the item will primarily be used for spot heals and emergencies, enchanting it with +81 healing will be more beneficial than spellsurge - you will still be wearing your enhance gear, so mp5 won't help that much - you're not going to be an effective endurance healer anyway.

When healing, you can continue to dps. If mana is a concern, stop your shock rotation, but maintain stormstrike and auto-attack since those cost little mana (or are free) and cause a large portion of your damage %. Sure, dps will go down due to the fact that you're not using your melee weapons, but if you prep your healing weapon with WF or FT, it'll still proc (do this before encounters, not during them - the buff lasts for 30 minutes, so you have plenty of time to do it). Also, your swing timer will likely be up each time you finish a heal, so even if you spam heals a swing will occur.

It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield.

Edit: Yakout makes a great point below. When I wrote this, I wasn't even aware that there were any off-hand caster weapons left in the game. Gotta get me one of those!

Last edited by Kahdrick : 12/13/07 at 6:55 PM.
#5584SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yakout
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield.
If you're going down the road of spot-healing with properly enchanted healing items, then this is not actually the right path to take. Forget the shield unless you're actively taking melee damage; instead off-hand a [Knight's War Hammer], [Razor Scythes], [Rockbiter Cutter], or (eww) [Phantom Dagger] of the Sorcerer/Invoker with a +81 healing enchant on it. In the cases where you continue to melee in between heals, this will reduce your DPS much less than having a shield out, plus you'll frankly get far more short-burst, non-sustained healing stats out of these. The extra Int or MP5 from a shield will be of less use for short-term healing than an extra 50 or so +heal (and possibly even a spot of spell crit).

(Yes, this also applies with spot-elemental DPS'ing, but that is, as you noted, an almost non-existant thing.)
#5585SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Using my stats on the java sim and 2000 hours, I imported my aep values into Enhancer, which gives EP values to items based on the aep values from the sim, this is something i'm a bit perplexed about though, it tells me.. well, see for yourself: http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2...ntrightdp5.png

Why is it telling me that this inferior chest is better?

Thanks
#5586SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rapparee
I agree with Kahdrick, just didn't think this was the thread for discussion of such things. But it is something that Malan may consider putting in the first post, since he's got an "evaluating a shaman for your raid' type section.... sorry I didn't have the exact wording.


Personally, I don't use "whoops i've pulled aggro" shield + weapon macro. Aside from High King Maulgar, all other bosses would have one-shot me when i was wearing gear appropriate for fighting them. Perhaps... just perhaps, I could survive a hurtful strike from Gruul today, if I was wearing a shield and had 13k life + shamanistic rage.

I do however, always carry my healing shield + healing weapon. Though i'd be better served with a second one-handed weapon with +81 healing enchant on it... currently any weapon with 81 on it is better than any shield when you're only casting 1 or 2 heals per fight. However, that's pretty damn expensive.

I heal with macros that read like this:
/cast lesser healing wave
/equip merciless gladiator's salvation
/equip aegis of the vindicator
/equip totem of the plains

I may have a typo in that macro, not sure.
And actually I use Clique to have that macro cast when I press "Shift + left click".
I have another macro
/cast healing wave
/equip merciless gladiator's salvation
/equip aegis of the vindicator
/equip totem of spontaneous regrowth

And finally there's one for Chain Heal that includes totem of healing rains.


I actually use all three types of casts during Archimonde encounters. I'm in the melee group with tremor totem down, and we're normally swinging at Archi's tail. If there are two doomfires visible on my screen and tremor has just released me from a fear.... I know that there's at most two healers in range and unfeared for the MainTank, I spam LHW, then HW on the tank regardless of what the tank's life looks like.
We've had a bear of a time controlling doomfires, and more times than I like to count, 2 or 3 of us in the melee group get DF. I have to stop meleeing anyway, due to all the fire, so I simply spam chain heal to lessen the healing burden on others.

Sometimes on trash in the orc encampment I need to heal in the situation where most of the raid is off on the gargoyles, the tank near melee dies, and soon after our healer dies.... I'll have to finish that wave healing while those two guys run back. I'm not saying this happens every single week... it's just that when it does happen it sucks to wipe in Hyjal and essentially waste 30minutes reclearing the waves.

So those are two easy to spot times, when you can either predict healing or have time to react and heal. BT doesn't have as many times like this.... You can heal melee during the kite phase of supremus, but they can just as easily bandage or grab a HoT during that phase...heck even healing stream could probably fill them up.

Also for that guy 3 pages ago doing void reaver....
Get 3 shaman and have them stand in the pounding along with the tanks and melee.
2 of them resto, spamming chain heal. One of those resto is in the main tank group with windfury totem down.
1 of them enhance with tranquil air totem in the melee dps group.
No one ever moves out of the pounding area.
#5587SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
I as an elemental shaman have survived being hit by several bosses. Supremus and Theladred come to mind. Although neither was due to pulling agro, more dealing with proximity on switches. Having a shield would give you a substantial amount of mitigation, especially with SR. Whether you can use your macro and have SR ready to pop when it happens is the much more difficult question.
#5588SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Disquette
Interesting, since he doesn't have the windfury 3 second cooldown implemented.
...
He makes no differentiation of offhand and mainhand WF procs due to weapon speeds
should be at least partially offset by
He doesn't increase dual wielding WF rate to 36% (instead of 20%)
I think an analysis of the average & worst case scenario effects of ignoring these points is in order.

He doesn't have the stormstrike bug implemented
SS "bug", as I understand it, will occur at about the same rate your Stormstrikes are missed/dodged/parried. Which on my meters is 10% of the time. Stormstrike is 9% of my damage. +/- .9%

He has no section for raid debuffs
...
I don't think he has enchants on there (mongoose/crusader)
Shouldn't matter all that much in terms of relative stat weights, though this will affect that "This is your DPS" line.

His simulator is incredibly basic compared to Yo's.
It's not a simulator. It's not doing what simulation does (allow us to research new theories). It's just offering a quick, direct answer to the question of "what gear will help me get stronger." Think of it as theorycraft light: a flat model, based on proven formulas and research but removing the complex fiddly details under the assumption that they won't significantly affect gear selection. This makes it far less accurate in predicting real DPS but almost as accurate in making gear suggestions, all without the intensive CPU effort of simulation.

Is this assumption valid? That's for us to determine, and so far I ALSO found to more or less model what I have discovered using Yo's/Thottbot.

I think it's interesting these guys are using "DPS" as a sort of relative indicator similar to EP but more accessible and potentially more useful. If you don't expect that "this is your DPS" line to be anything more than a relative indicator, this site is an intriguing new tool.

My biggest problems are that he's missing some gear, that there's no option to remove BoP gear from professions you don't have, that it offers quest and rep rewards that are faction specific to everybody.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 4:11 PM.
#5589SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
paradox - Just a guess, but the EP values on those tooltips might not be considering the gems correctly.
#5590SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan
paradox - Just a guess, but the EP values on those tooltips might not be considering the gems correctly.
Is that something I should report to the Enhancer developer then? I don't think it has anything to do with RatingBuster which just gives the summary and isn't included in any calcuations as far as I can tell.
#5591SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Paradox
Why is it telling me that this inferior chest is better?

Thanks
Enhancement Itemization Points != EP values. Personally, I turned them off and only use "AEP."

Think about it, man -- if the item has 166 AP, how the heck is it going to have less than 100 EP?

EIP is some other kind of analysis, which I don't understand but assume (from the name) is a breakdown of how much of the item's itemization budget was spent on Enhancer friendly stats (rather than stuff like Int, Stam or Resilience).
#5592SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
What is it you "use" for "AEP"? All I have for the stat weights is Enhancer.

Another question about the stat simulator.. when you add a trinket, say the hourglass, is that just the proc on the hourglass or does it add the crit rating too?
#5593SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Paradox: the crit is already added to your paper doll stats, so no it just adds the proc.

As for Enhancer, I turn off the display of every stat weight system EXCEPT for AEP.

I get my EP from Yo's. I enter it using /enhancer EPNumbers AEP CrazyShamanStats <stat weights>.

Incidentally, I'm a little bugged about Enhancer's rounding system and the fact that it defaults to a high-end raid value for meta gems. My hit rating is worth 1.56 and my crit rating 1.64. Both of these round to 1.6, and so Enhancer things Crit Rating = Hit Rating. That, combined with the meta gem thing, leads it to suggest that [Helm of the Claw] is an upgrade (I'm fairly certain it isn't).
#5594SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Stuff about maxdps
If he wants to have a rudimentary tool that is mostly good, then he's got it right.

If he wants to help people achieve MAXDPS.com, then he doesn't have it right.

When I see the name that the site has, along with gear recommendations in front of people, which will occasionally result in someone choosing the wrong piece of gear, I have a logic problem with that.

If some n000blet goes to the site and finds out that with his 1.3 daggers he really needs to load up on +hit (because the site doesn't respect the 3 second cooldown), then the site is doing a disservice by a) not showing how bad his dps really will be and b) recommending more +hit so that WF will proc more. Can't WF unless you hit!
#5595SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
If you use Pawn and just change the string provided in the OP, you don't have to deal with most of that sillyness.
#5596SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
In cases where you do pull aggro - STOP ATTACKING. Just spam LHW on yourself and hope you don't die. If you keep attacking, your threat will skyrocket (especially now that you've popped shamrage) and it will be that much harder for someone to pull the mob off of you.
I actually disagree with spamming LHW, it heals for so little over what you get hit for even with SR up. I would rather take my chances with my combined dodge/block/parry/miss in a raid setting and let the healers do that job instead.
#5597SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Malan
If you use Pawn and just change the string provided in the OP, you don't have to deal with most of that sillyness.
Is it better to just disable enhancers AEP values option and use Pawn for that then? Like you said, just changing the values of the string in the OP to that of the simulators?
#5598SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Paradox: the crit is already added to your paper doll stats, so no it just adds the proc.

As for Enhancer, I turn off the display of every stat weight system EXCEPT for AEP.

I get my EP from Yo's. I enter it using /enhancer EPNumbers AEP CrazyShamanStats <stat weights>.

Incidentally, I'm a little bugged about Enhancer's rounding system and the fact that it defaults to a high-end raid value for meta gems. My hit rating is worth 1.56 and my crit rating 1.64. Both of these round to 1.6, and so Enhancer things Crit Rating = Hit Rating. That, combined with the meta gem thing, leads it to suggest that [Helm of the Claw] is an upgrade (I'm fairly certain it isn't).
Enhancer accepts up to 2 decimals. It didn't use to by has recently. All my values have 2 decimals and I'm having no problems with it. Also, Helm of the Claw is actually a very nice item. Its the best helm heading into ZA or T5 content. The only reason I replaced it with my T4 helm is I knew people wouldn't understand that its better (that and it looks hideous).
#5599SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yakout
Yo's simulator is producing some... odd results. Something is definitely amiss with it, as I'm consistently getting EP values in the 6-7 range for all non-AP/Str stats except APen, for which I'm getting around 1.
#5600SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
It's best to make a macro that swaps your MH and OH for your healing weapon and shield, and another macro that swaps back, and keep those on your hotbars or bound to easy to reach keys. Swapping back is particularly annoying because most off-hand weapons for a shaman are actually "One-Hand" and simply left clicking the item from your bags will swap it with your Main Hand weapon instead of with your shield.
I've found that using the 'QuickWeaponSwap' mod does this pretty well, it's easy to find on cursed. I keep my dps weapons sets and my healing weapons on keybinds so I can drop quick heals in battle. I've gotten 4k+ crit HWs, so it's definately useful every now and again.
#5601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Joy
-edit

Typo my end.

Last edited by Joy : 12/13/07 at 6:13 PM.
#5602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
See, I'm all for skepticism -- but unless you can PROVE that the assumptions MAXDPS is making will result in bad gear choices, you're not really theorycrafting. Here's a good assumption to start with:


Well, again, there are lots of reasons to use slower weapons, of which the cooldown is only one. However, weapon choice is a bit of failure. If you enter a pair of 1.3s weapons, you get a "DPS value" that's about 4% lower than if you enter a pair of 2.7s weapons (on Yo's it's more like 17%). As a result, there are some bad suggestions in there such as Stellaris and the Stormreaver Warblades, and Guile of Khoraazi is way over-represented. In any case, the best weapons are 2.6.

As for hit rating: using 5-man dungeon stats (1000 AP, 15% crit, 15% hit), your "DPS per 10" ratings are Hit Rating: 1.60, Crit Rating: 2.73, Strength: 4.18 with 1.3s weapons, vs 1.77, 2.85 and 4.38 for 2.7s. So actually, it's upvaluing HR with SLOW weapons (just checeked, yo's does the same) -- but it's also making it blatantly obvious that strength and crit rating are more important. So, there's one for MaxDPS.

So it has a ways to go. Would it offer MaxDPS? Well, the gear this site claims is best is the SAME as the gear other methods claims is best, so maybe. As an armor upgrade selection site, it does really well. But its weapon choices are, as you hypothesized, off. However, I don't think it's impossible to find some way to generally express the 3s cooldown's effect on DPS in a flat equation -- say, each .1s of speed beyond 1.3s is worth 1.2% additional damage -- derived from simulations.

I just guessed that the faster weapons would over value hit. I was wrong on that (and am still pretty surprised by that... I'll have to think more about why that is), but since it was an example of a possible outcome, I don't think it matters. As for it recommending gear improperly, I already showed 2 examples (ring and something else, in an ealier post) where it ranks them wrong.

Well, wrong if you consider Yo!'s sim to be a more accurate test. I know I sure do.
#5603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Joy
Wow.

MaxDps 'values' put the [Brooch of Deftness] at 46.5

And the [Choker of Endless Nightmares] at 42.51

5 Expertise 1 hit rating > 72 AP 27 crit rating.

It is possible that it assumes I'm hitting from the front, thus doubling the effect of expertise?
(Probably not because the attack table has Parry/Dodge at 5% rather than ~~15 if it included parry)

If this is the case it's made my day 'cause Supremus has only dropped his necklace twice in over 20 kills.
Not to mention a solid chunk of H P.
He doesn't say how he uses expertise. I have no doubt he doesn't use it correctly. Don't pay attention to crazy things like that. By the way, i use the Brooch of Deftness - it's nothing personal I have against expertise (I'm at 56 rating = 14 expertise atm). I would love to upgrade to the supremus neck, but our guild has a huge backlog on them and I'm just a casual.

There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site.
#5604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Well, what are your other stats looking like? That Brooch doesn't show up on my list until I enter an absurdly high value for unbuffed crit rating and an absurdly low value for hit rating, like 42% with 0% hit. In which case the extra crit on the choker would be pretty useless, the hit would cancel out, and you'd be effectively comparing 1.25% additional hits vs 72 AP.

You aren't entering raid buffed values in those fields are you, are you? It's looking for your un-raid buffed paper doll values for crit percentage and hit rating (yo's expects a hit percentage).

Disq: I feel that, due to a general trend towards good gear suggestions, this site could be really useful. In the areas where it fails, I'd rather provide constructive feedback than write it off as unreliable. In any event, I'll still be using Yo's to dream up and test hare brained new gear combos -- it's an uncanny resource.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/13/07 at 5:22 PM.
#5605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Disquette
He doesn't say how he uses expertise. I have no doubt he doesn't use it correctly. Don't pay attention to crazy things like that. By the way, i use the Brooch of Deftness - it's nothing personal I have against expertise (I'm at 56 rating = 14 expertise atm). I would love to upgrade to the supremus neck, but our guild has a huge backlog on them and I'm just a casual.

There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site.
I don't see how its possible he's getting that neck there.. from my stats it's not even listed on the list for necklaces. Something seems very wrong and I don't think its the site.

Rest of the items are 99% identical to my thottbot lists, with afew differences such as belts, but that because thott doesn't have expertise yet.

Although it would be nice if the site would cache or have a save option for your inputted values.
#5606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Hit rating does not support faster weapons without cooldown due to fact that WF is normalised by flat proc rate. Meaning it will be equal for all speeds without cooldown. The reason why slow weapons still pull ahead is SS.
#5607SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Unaz
Item lists

Ok, I maintain a list here for my own reference as to which bosses I need/don't need, and haven't updated it since ZA to see what's new. Also, now that I'm finally in BT and have access to Epic gems, that changes the weights on some items for me, with some gemmed items overtaking non socketed ones.

So using Loot Rank and Maxdps, I made a double chart of top items for each slot (for me) with base weighted values for the gem slots, and then maxdps did it's own thing with socketing epic gems and weighting based on my stats (mix t5/6). Now I know maxdps has formulas that are still under construction, and I may tweak it again later, but these items feel pretty solid to me as to their rankings. I know that a lot of you prefer to run a sim based on gear changes, which may effect a few items, but I'm fairly comfortable with generating a list and going by that, and hopefully this will help others as well.

The one issue I did have, which seems to mainly effect gloves, is expertise rating. I think I may have over-weighed it, and will have to look into it more later.

I also made an effort to extend each list far enough to include at least one boe crafted or pvp/badge item. Which means that at least one item in these end game gear lists should be obtainable by anyone without relying on luck. I couldn't really do it with rings though, so the pvp rings are your best bet most likely. Ideally a person can essentially get top 10 gearing without needing to rely on a random drop by using these lists.

Loot Rank URL used * I don't remember where I got my expertise rating from, it may be wildly inaccurate.

Thottbot URL (Used it to verify at first, but lootrank came out even enough that Thott wasn't needed)

Head (sans gems, but still weighting slots using thottbot/lootrank):
  1. [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [338.5] (BT - Illidan)
  2. [Forest Prowler's Helm] [270.2] (BT - Zerevor)
  3. [Skyshatter Cover] [251.6] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  4. [Grimgrin Faceguard] [251.6] (ZA - Zul'jin)
  5. [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] [241.5] (ZA - Hex Lord)
  6. [Surestrike Goggles v2.0] [237.6] (Engineering)
  7. [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] [232.92] (Arena)

With epic gems from Maxdps:
  1. [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] [105.38] (BT - Illidan)
  2. [Forest Prowler's Helm] [88.85] (BT - Zerevor)
  3. [Skyshatter Cover] [84.07] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  4. [Cataclysm Helm] [80.1] (SSC - Vashj)
  5. [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Helm] [78.86] (Arena)
  6. [Mask of the Deceiver] [71.49] (Badges)
*Note, engineering stuff doesn't seem to show up in their list.
Shoulder (sans gems):
  1. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] [211.3] (SSC - Hydross)
  2. [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] [207.6] (BT - Akama)
  3. [Mantle of Darkness] [197.6] (BT - Naj'entus)
  4. [Swiftstrike Shoulders] [192.14] (Leatherworking - BoE pattern from BT)
  5. [Razorfury Mantle] [186.2] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  6. [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] [185.96] (Leatherworking - BoE pattern from BT)
  7. [Skyshatter Pauldrons] [184.6] (BT - Mother Shahraz)
  8. [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] [178.8] (ZA - Nalorakk)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] [51.61] (SSC - Hydross)
  2. [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] [50.93] (BT - Akama)
  3. [Skyshatter Pauldrons] [48.91] (BT - Mother Shahraz)
  4. [Mantle of Darkness] [48.88] (BT - Naj'entus)
  5. [Pauldrons of Primal Fury] [47.5] (ZA - Nalorakk)
  6. [Razorfury Mantle] [44.82] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  7. [Mantle of the Tireless Tracker] [43.55] (SSC - Morogrim)
*Note, leatherworking items are not showing up in list.
Neck (sans gems):
  1. [Choker of Endless Nightmares] [155.4] (BT - Supremus)
  2. [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] [126.5] (TK - Kael'thas sphere drop)
  3. [Choker of Serrated Blades] [126.4] (BT/Hyjal Trash)
  4. [Pendant of the Perilous] [118] (SSC Trash)
  5. [Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph] [117.8] (BG Honor)
  6. [Choker of Animalistic Fury] [114.8] (SSC - Lurker)
  7. [Brooch of Deftness] [112.22] (Badges)
  8. [Choker of Vile Intent] [108.8] (Bages)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Choker of Endless Nightmares] [39.67] (BT - Supremus)
  2. [Choker of Serrated Blades] [31.92] (BT/Hyjal Trash)
  3. [Telonicus's Pendant of Mayhem] [31.66] (TK - Kael'thas sphere drop)
  4. [Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph] [30.11] (BG Honor)
  5. [Pendant of the Perilous] [30.04] (SSC Trash)
  6. [Choker of Animalistic Fury] [28.47] (SSC - Lurker)
  7. [The Savage's Choker] [28.19] (ZA - Halazzi)
  8. [Haramad's Bargain] [27.11] (Consortium Exalted)
  9. [Mithril Chain of Heroism] [26.9] (Karazhan - Chess)
  10. [Choker of Vile Intent] [26.86] (Bages)
*Note, Brooch of Deftness did not show up in list.
Chest (sans gems):
  1. [Midnight Chestguard] [301.8] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  2. [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] [273.1] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  3. [Nether Shadow Tunic] [264.2] (BT - Supremus)
  4. [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] [257] (SSC - Karathress)
  5. [Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass] [245.5] (ZA - Jan'Alai)
  6. [Ranger-General's Chestguard] [241.6] (SSC - Hydross)
  7. [Skyshatter Tunic] [238.8] (BT - Illidan)
  8. [Cataclysm Chestplate] [235.9] (TK - Kael'thas)
  9. [Vest of Mounting Assault] [233.4] (BT - Bloodboil)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Midnight Chestguard] [78.56] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  2. [Nether Shadow Tunic] [69.86] (BT - Supremus)
  3. [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] [69.27] (SSC - Karathress)
  4. [Mail of Fevered Pursuit] [66.22] (Hyjal - Archimonde)
  5. [Ranger-General's Chestguard] [65.3] (SSC - Hydross)
  6. [Terrorweave Tunic] [63.83] (Doomwalker)
  7. [Cataclysm Chestplate] [63.51] (TK - Kael'thas)
  8. [Skyshatter Tunic] [63.15] (BT - Illidan)
  9. [Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass] [61.52] (ZA - Jan'Alai)
  10. [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Armor] [59.84] (Arena)
  11. [Vest of Mounting Assault] [58.67] (BT - Bloodboil)
*Note, Vestments of Hibernation did not show up in list.
Wrist (sans gems):
  1. [Deadly Cuffs] [153.2] (Hyjal - Rage)
  2. [Insidious Bands] [150.4] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] [140.46] (Leatherworking - BoP pattern/BoE Item from BT)
  4. [Master Assassin Wristwraps] [139.5] (Badges)
  5. [Wraps of Precise Flight] [137.8] (BT - Supremus)
  6. [Swiftstrike Bracers] [134.76] (Leatherworking - BoP pattern/BoE Item from BT)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Deadly Cuffs] [39.23] (Hyjal - Rage)
  2. [Insidious Bands] [39.23] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Master Assassin Wristwraps] [36.53] (Badges)
  4. [Wraps of Precise Flight] [33.32] (BT - Supremus)
  5. [Vambraces of Ending] [31.3] (TK - Solarian)
*Note, leatherworking items are not showing up in list.
Hands (sans gems):
  1. [Gloves of the Searing Grip] [197.66] (TK - Al'ar) - May be grossly overvalued due to my expertise weighting
  2. [Grips of Damnation] [189.66] (BT - Reliquary)
  3. [Fists of Mukoa] [184.76] (BT - Naj'entus)
  4. [Grips of Deftness] [173.2] (Karazhan Trash)
  5. [Skyshatter Grips] [170.9] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  6. [Trickster's Stickyfingers] [167.6] (Badges)
  7. [Liar's Tongue Gloves] [163.8] (Magtheridon)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Grips of Damnation] [54.88] (BT - Reliquary)
  2. [Fists of Mukoa] [53.94] (BT - Naj'entus)
  3. [Trickster's Stickyfingers] [47.1] (Badges)
  4. [Gauntlets of Sniping] [44.49] (Badges)
  5. [Skyshatter Grips] [44.19] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  6. [Liar's Tongue Gloves] [43.95] (Magtheridon)
  7. [Gloves of the Searing Grip] [42.92] (TK - Al'ar)
*Note, the variance here is huge compared to other items. Mainly due to the presense of weapon expertise on some items, in combination with epic gem slots. I'm not sure where Gloves of the Searing grip should actually fall.
Waist (sans gems):
  1. [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] [253.2] (SSC - Vashj)
  2. [Boneweave Girdle] [222.6] (BT - Reliquary)
  3. [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] [210.1] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  4. [Bladeangel's Money Belt] [191.26] (ZA - Nalorakk)
  5. [Shadow-walker's Cord] [189.66] (BT - Akama)
  6. [Belt of Deep Shadow] [188.4] (Leatherworking - BoP pattern/BoE Item from SSC/TK)
  7. [Valestalker Girdle] [187.38] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  8. [Waistguard of the Great Beast] [178.9] (Badges)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] [58.8] (SSC - Vashj)
  2. [Boneweave Girdle] [55.72] (BT - Reliquary)
  3. [Don Alejandro's Money Belt] [55.23] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  4. [Shadow-walker's Cord] [54.88] (BT - Akama)
  5. [Valestalker Girdle] [54.29] (Hyjal - Kaz'rogal)
  6. [Bladeangel's Money Belt] [49.16] (ZA - Nalorakk)
  7. [Waistguard of the Great Beast] [48.25] (Badges)
*Note, leatherworking items are not showing up in list.
Legs (sans gems):
  1. [Bow-stitched Leggings] [278.6] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  2. [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] [258.2] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  3. [Leggings of Murderous Intent] [257.7] (TK - Kael'thas)
  4. [Skyshatter Pants] [238.2] (BT - Council)
  5. [Shallow-grave Trousers] [231.1] (Badges)
  6. [Skulker's Greaves] [220] (Karazhan - Netherspite)
  7. [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] [219.1] (Kazzak)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Bow-stitched Leggings] [74.25] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  2. [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] [64] (Hyjal - Azgalor)
  3. [Leggings of Murderous Intent] [63.84] (TK - Kael'thas)
  4. [Shallow-grave Trousers] [63.56] (Badges)
  5. [Scaled Greaves of the Marksman] [63.05] (Kazzak)
  6. [Skulker's Greaves] [59.64] (Karazhan - Netherspite)
  7. [Skyshatter Pants] [238.2] (BT - Council)
Feet (sans gems):
  1. [Shadowmaster's Boots] [208.2] (BT - Shahraz)
  2. [Softstep Boots of Tracking] [206] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] [183.7] (Badges)
  4. [Quickstrider Moccasins] [174.9] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  5. [Cobra-Lash Boots] [169.8] (SSC - Vashj)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Shadowmaster's Boots] [55.61] (BT - Shahraz)
  2. [Softstep Boots of Tracking] [51.54] (BT - Teron)
  3. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] [49.19] (Badges)
  4. [Quickstrider Moccasins] [46.65] (Hyjal - Anetheron)
  5. [Cobra-Lash Boots] [45.25] (SSC - Vashj)
Finger (Loot Rank):
  1. [Signet of Primal Wrath] [152.48] (ZA - 3rd Chest)
  2. [Stormrage Signet Ring] [149.88] (BT - Illidan)
  3. [Band of the Ranger-General] [142.6] (TK - Kael'thas)
  4. [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] [141.2] (BT - Bloodboil)
  5. [Ring of Deceitful Intent] [132.9] (BT - Akama)
  6. [Ring of Lethality] [126] (SSC - Hydross)
  7. [Band of the Eternal Champion] [123.7] (Hyjal - Exalted rep)

Maxdps:
  1. [Signet of Primal Wrath] [38.14] (ZA - 3rd Chest)
  2. [Stormrage Signet Ring] [37.38] (BT - Illidan)
  3. [Band of the Eternal Champion] [37.22] (Hyjal - Exalted rep)
  4. [Band of Devastation] [36.04] (BT Trash)
  5. [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring] [35.78] (BT - Bloodboil)
  6. [Band of the Ranger-General] [34.78] (TK - Kael'thas)
  7. [Ring of Deceitful Intent] [32.02] (BT - Akama)
  8. [Ring of Lethality] [31.25] (SSC - Hydross)
*Note, Band of the Eternal Champion does not have its proc taken into account for Loot Rank, so is much lower there.

Maxdps does seem to model it however, as it has a much higher ranking compared to the non proc version before it. Band of Devastation did not appear in the Loot Rank list.
Back (sans gems):
  1. [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] [148.6] (BT - Teron)
  2. [Thalassian Wildercloak] [126.8] (TK - Kael'thas)
  3. [Dory's Embrace] [124.16] (Badges)
  4. [Black-Iron Battlecloak] [120] (Doomwalker)
  5. [Cloak of Darkness] [118.1] (Karazhan rep pattern, BoE cloak)
  6. [Razor-Scale Battlecloak] [117.4] (SSC - Morogrim)
  7. [Vengeance Wrap] [114.8] (Tailoring - World Drop BoE)

Epic Gems:
  1. [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] [36.87] (BT - Teron)
  2. [Cloak of Fiends] [36.44] (ZA - Chest drop - Not sure which chest)
  3. [Vengeance Wrap] [31.81] (Tailoring - World Drop BoE)
  4. [Thalassian Wildercloak] [31.59] (TK - Kael'thas)
  5. [Cloak of Darkness] [31.12] (Karazhan rep pattern, BoE cloak)
  6. [Black-Iron Battlecloak] [30.74] (Doomwalker)
  7. [Dory's Embrace] [30.37] (Badges)

Last edited by Unaz : 12/31/07 at 5:47 PM.
#5608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Kahdrick
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I actually disagree with spamming LHW, it heals for so little over what you get hit for even with SR up. I would rather take my chances with my combined dodge/block/parry/miss in a raid setting and let the healers do that job instead.
If I'm pulling aggro on a boss fight, you're right, I wouldn't be spamming LHW - I'd be /praying. On a heroic trash mob, LHW is likely to actually go off in between their hits on me, and I'd avoid spell knockback. I find it more effective than regular HW for that reason, and it helps to keep me up while the healer switches healing targets. I PUG a lot; I don't like to assume that the healer is good/aware/responsive.

edit: doh... grammar.

Last edited by Kahdrick : 12/13/07 at 6:36 PM.
#5609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Mox
Something seems very wrong and I don't think its the site.

Yip. 299 crit. Apologies heh

edited old post.
#5610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Unaz
I know that a lot of you prefer to run a sim based on gear changes, which may effect a few items, but I'm fairly comfortable with generating a list and going by that, and hopefully this will help others as well.
Everything you just listed in that huge post is fully explained in the OP for people to do on their own.
#5611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Polar
Originally Posted by Rob
I checked out that Loot Rank site just now. It will be a nice replacement for Thottbot and Lootzor (which has long since ceased being useful) if they can get the bugs fixed. (Specifically, haste rating and expertise rating are definitely not working properly at the moment.) I still don't get the seeming insistence these types of sites have with "normalizing" the scores. If they would just show me what the item would be scored based on my values, it would make it a lot easier to realize when scores for specific items are bugged in some way. Frankly, I hope Wowhead comes out with something soon that ends this problem once and for all.
Hi Rob,

Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy).

Polar
Lootrank author
#5612SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Disq: I feel that, due to a general trend towards good gear suggestions, this site could be really useful. In the areas where it fails, I'd rather provide constructive feedback than write it off as unreliable. In any event, I'll still be using Yo's to dream up and test hare brained new gear combos -- it's an uncanny resource.
I absolutely agree and that's why I've written a detailed explanation of every problematic area I've found in his forums where he provides the formulas. I *want* that site to succeed, because I like the combination of maximizing dps and providing gear to help do that in the same place. But, in its current incarnation, it doesn't do that.

I don't just complain, I've done my best to help the site author fix the problems. It's in his court now. I hope for all of our sakes that he does so.

It's the same that I've done with each sim or calculator where I've been able to see the code -

Pater's
Mine
Friedrick's
Yo!'s
Enshamulator (I forgot the author's name)
an Excel based on that's faded into obscurity.

I really do try to help, and put effort into it. I know my critiques seem harsh, but after going through my 7th simulator now, and finding some of the same issues, but in this case worse, than in the previous 6, I don't have the effort left in me to sugar coat my critiques. That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the authors' efforts immensely. Having made one of these myself, and not even building the functional and pretty front end that enshamulator, Yo!'s, or maxdps's does, I can really appreciate how hard these people work on them.

Originally Posted by Polar
Hi Rob,

Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy).

Polar
Lootrank author
I really like the site and have my personal stats bookmarked (yay for querystrings instead of post-data forms!)

Originally Posted by Atren
Hit rating does not support faster weapons without cooldown due to fact that WF is normalised by flat proc rate. Meaning it will be equal for all speeds without cooldown. The reason why slow weapons still pull ahead is SS.
This makes a lot of sense, thank you.
#5613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lethnon
Just looking over the first post. In short, it says:

[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]
97.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 880.4) (OH: x3.70 = 360.75)
+27 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 10. (x1.4 = 14)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 19. (x2 = 38)
Equip: Improves your resilience rating by 12.
Equip: Increases attack power by 30. (x1 = 30)
Total MH EP = 962.4
Total OH EP = 442.75

[Netherbane]
96.5 DPS (MH: x9.03 = 871.4) (OH: x3.7 = 357)
+25 Agility (x2 = 50)
+21 Stamina
Equip: Increases attack power by 40. (x1 = 40)
Total MH EP = 961.4
Total OH EP = 447.05

Comparing the two weapons we can see that the difference in the MH for each weapon is relatively minor with a 1 EP difference, but in the OH the Netherbane performs better with a 5 EP difference.

And...

OH = [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Fury] > [Fool's Bane] > [The Decapitator] > [Runic Hammer] > epic dagger or anything else faster than 2.4


So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up.




Move along citizens, nothing else to see here.
#5614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lethnon
Originally Posted by Polar
Hi Rob,

Loot Rank has been up for around 1 week now and we have fixed the expertise rating and haste rating calculations. We do not normalize the scores since it is such normalizing tends to confuse rather than help (and also allows for easier checking of score accuracy).

Polar
Lootrank author
Finally looked at the site. I think it looks great!

Two points to try to help out:

1 - can there be an option for limiting gear to a certain armor type? I try to stick with mail when possible (ducks from the pro-leather based comments) and removing leather options would be nice.

2 - I notice it crashes it when you replace numbers you don't need in the stats by using the space bar to clear them. I had to go back and delete the space in order to get the list. Just FYI for bug fixing (or anyone else who tried using it but crashed like I did)
#5615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Lethnon
So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up.
It's highly dependant on your stat weights honestly. I did the numbers for my weights, and the Merc glad was higher by a few points. Not to mention, I think he just listed items that were attainable pre-t5 zones, as all of those are either Kara, Arena, ZA, or crafted.
#5616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Daagar
Originally Posted by Disquette
I absolutely agree and that's why I've written a detailed explanation of every problematic area I've found in his forums where he provides the formulas. I *want* that site to succeed, because I like the combination of maximizing dps and providing gear to help do that in the same place. But, in its current incarnation, it doesn't do that.

I don't just complain, I've done my best to help the site author fix the problems. It's in his court now. I hope for all of our sakes that he does so.
I checked the forums over on maxdps.com. Disquette provided the exact kind of bug reports that any developer would want, and though he even apologizes there for being 'harsh' he certainly isn't - he's just factual. And to the site's credit, it appears Nuuga is actively trying to act on all the suggestions that Disquette made. So much ado about nothing here I think.

Much appreciation to both Nuuga and Disquette for hashing it all out. As great as Yo's sim/Loot Rank are, as a casual player maxdps.com is great for a stuff-in-my-stats-and-get-suggestions out without needing to do a lot of leg work (ie., yes I'm lazy).
#5617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Lethnon
So if [Netherbane] outperforms [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] as a OH, why isn't it listed in the choice OH section? I assume this was a simple oversight, so I thought I would bring it up.
Its not listed because that section on Offhands was intended to tell people where they could quickly pick one up and compare them, the idea was not to list each and every single OH. It was one of the original portions of the post that was trying to inform people to use slow weapons.
#5618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lethnon
Ahh. Makes sense
#5619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0nuga
Hey guys,

I'm the author of MaxDPS.com and just wanted to let you know that the page is in beta. I'm working very hard trying to make it as accurate as possible, and I realize that peer review is the only way to do so. I'm willing to open up any part of my code if it will help the site become more accurate. If you're willing to help (As Disquette has done, thanks!) - rather than muddle up this thread/forum, feel free to drop me a line or post on the forum on my site.

To respond to one thing in particular that was posted:

MaxDps 'values' put the [Brooch of Deftness] at 46.5

And the [Choker of Endless Nightmares] at 42.51
He doesn't say how he uses expertise. I have no doubt he doesn't use it correctly. Don't pay attention to crazy things like that. By the way, i use the Brooch of Deftness - it's nothing personal I have against expertise (I'm at 56 rating = 14 expertise atm). I would love to upgrade to the supremus neck, but our guild has a huge backlog on them and I'm just a casual.

There ya go toots, another good example of bad gear ranking from the site.
I had an error in the code that was using expertise rating as expertise percentage. This has been fixed (again thanks to Disquette).

As you can see, I'm constantly working on the site trying to make things better. But as it is in Beta, please use at your own risk. I'm trying to help, not harm, the community.
#5620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Malan
Everything you just listed in that huge post is fully explained in the OP for people to do on their own.
The first post has ranked gear compared to ranked gear with only epic gems?

I was bored so I posted it in case people found it useful.
#5621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Meli
Hello

First of all escuse my english thats not very good. I'm french, so I'll try to make my best.
Thanks for this tread that I find very interesting.

I couldn't read the whole tread because there are to many pages and it'll take me to much time.

I have a Shaman as you can suppose. With my guild, we have clean SSC and we are in front of kael'thas that (I think) will be down soon.
So I've begin to look at item that are dropped in BT and Hijal.

My shaman is currently (unbuff) :
1592 AP
30,01% crit
112 hit

The most interesting items in BT/Hijal has a lot of crit/agi but not a lot of AP/force or hit in comparaison with T6.

My question is: Does it exist a cap crit or is crit/agi always so interresting when you have a lot of it? Have we to consider crit as < than 2EP after a specific value?
I'm surprised that force/AP as not a higher value after the 2.3 that make increase the horion damage with the AP. Could you explain?


Sorry if the aswers are somewhere in the thread and thank a lot for aswering.
#5622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0xkaziex
Hello Everyone!

I am a first time poster, and knowing how things are done around here ill get right to the point.

For quite some time i have used the information on this thread as a form of refference, at best a very solid base to maximize what I do as an enhancement shaman.

I have found that while there is a lot of mathematics that have been shown here, there are things that dont translate very well to actual practice.

My main question is regarding Hit Rating as a whole. I'm not looking for a specific number, because there honestly isn't. To illustrate my point I need to give a bit of an explanation first.

AEP is currently being used as a form of measurement for the potential DPS of particular items, and lately I have begun to question the exact accuracy of these numbers - though admittedly its under a different light.

Im sure like myself, to all experienced ENH shamans, gear upgrades wont often times be about the individual piece vrs another, but instead the synergy between the new gear upgrade and the rest of the set you have created for yourself. Having a PvP set and a PvE set has allowed me to shift some stats and do some testing for myself on how much of an effect hit currently has. I am not here to show crazy math, Im actually here to get you geniuses look into this since you have more tools than i do. Here is the Dilema:

The difference between my PvP set vrs my PvE set stats wise is +50atk, +.4 crit - 35 hit for PvP, where as my PvE is obviously -50atk, -.4, and +35 hit. In short my DPS with my pvp set is lower. Now, to some it may seem obvious but here is the thing:

Per AEP calculations each piece that i replaced (a total of 2) was replaced by a higher AEP value piece, however the overall result was lower DPS.

I realize that hit may become more crucial vrs certain mobs..and there are a few of them, but even stepping down to Gruul's/Mag to do some DPS testing the differential in DPS totals per recount/sw was +- 50 DPS, sometimes a little higher, all in favor of the PvE gear.

For those of you who will have this question, my total + hit with PvE is at 173, where my PvP is at 138.

I have read in numerous places (mind you, as obvious opinions) that a "good" + hit is around 120, but frankly, from what I am seeing in actual results, it seems to me the sweet spot is between 175-200, which i realize it seems like a lot.

Part of my concern is that around the SSC part of progression which is where im currently at; the variety of upgrades offer a crit and a atk power boots but at the entire cost of +hit on the item replacing. Most items at this level have anywhere between 15-18 +hit on them, so its roughly 1% hit (sometimes more sometimes less) that is being lost to items that on paper, due to higher ATk and crit values, have a higher AEP number.

I realize that many of you will ask for examples, and I intend to add 2 items for questioning as soon as i find out how to do links where the item shows. If not ill just write down the stats.

If anyone has noticed, or perhaps is curious to analyze this, please do so. Im sure any/all results will be posted here.

ok here is a good example.

Cataclysm Gauntlets (143.92 AEP) vs Tricksters Stickyfingers (152.20 AEP).

My issue is sitting at 173 +hit (and I have all talented bonuses for +9 total) loosing 1 percent actually lowers my DPS by loosing 25 + hit, where the gain on paper for the tricksters doesnt make up for it (i hope that makes sense).

If i figured out the AEP wrong, please let me know, otherwise - for theory craft, has anyone considered having certain +hit thresholds not necessarily based on gear but perhaps a reflection of the content you are in? or does it seem completely unrelated?

Buffed, passed 2400+ ATK, and over 35 crit (before procs), the 50 gain in atk really doesnt seem to stack up to loosing 1% of hit in what i am seeing.

For actual DPS numbers I can hover between 1050-1130s in DPS In PvE gear, while in -hit gear (PvP) it was between 970-1070's DPS. These results were consistant over 3 weeks of Gruul/Mag.


Apologies if this seems a bit long winded.
#5623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Using same values comparing to maxdps to Yo's

MAXdps:
Attack Table
Miss: 	            28.0 %
Dodge:                 5 %
Glancing Blow:        25 %
Hit:                17.0 %
Crit:               25.0 %
Yo's
Attack Table
Miss: 	            28.0 %
Dodge:               5.6 %
Glancing Blow:        25 %
Hit:                19.4 %
Crit:               22.0 %
In MAXdps attack table you cant see relative mob level difference.
dodge is 5% instead of 5.6%
crit is 25% instead of Yo's 22%.(what is right value?)

MAXdps dps list.
Current Stats
White DPS: 	239.93
Windfury DPS: 	229.23
Stormstrike DPS: 75.10
Earth Shock DPS: 50.91
Flame Shock DPS: 60.11
Total DPS: 	655.27
Yo's
Current Stats
White DPS:      237
Windfury DPS: 	178
Stormstrike DPS: 68
Shocks DPS:     104
Total DPS:      588
White damage look almoust perfect(higher dodge% and lower crit% put these numbers par)
Windfury damage is way too high. Almoust +30% too high.
Stormstrike damage look almoust OK.
Shocks damage is good. Cant say how MAXdps value SS debuff.
#5624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by xkaziex
lots of text

I fail to see how you can be doing less DPS with 50 ap .4 crit vs 35 hit, and I really think Gruul/Mag are horrible fights to cite for testing. There are a ton of elements to DPS like raid/group composition, boss abilities, and buffs. With such a small sample size (3 may seem like a lot but it is pretty insignificant) and I find it very difficult to believe that 1% hit makes a 5% damage difference.

As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing). Many, many people have came here and had revelations about how insignificant hit is, myself included, it is best to embrace countless hours of work and simulations instead of fighting based on a very minimal sample size on very random fights.
#5625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it? Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds?
#5626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it? Also does anyone know if Ashtongue trinket has any cooldown to prevent back to back SS with 9 seconds?
#5627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?

I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop.
#5628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
xkaziex
Originally Posted by rava
I fail to see how you can be doing less DPS with 50 ap .4 crit vs 35 hit, and I really think Gruul/Mag are horrible fights to cite for testing. There are a ton of elements to DPS like raid/group composition, boss abilities, and buffs. With such a small sample size (3 may seem like a lot but it is pretty insignificant) and I find it very difficult to believe that 1% hit makes a 5% damage difference.

As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing). Many, many people have came here and had revelations about how insignificant hit is, myself included, it is best to embrace countless hours of work and simulations instead of fighting based on a very minimal sample size on very random fights.
Well, I dont say this to be argumentative so please dont take it that way. Considering i do the comparison vrs myself, its easier to compare, at the same time, because I am the raid leader, these past 3 weeks ive made sure that i had nothing else to do but DPS (not choice really in gruul) during those fights. Also, keeping in mind that our roster is static, farmed content (meaning people are up always putting down the same debuffs), and tracking my own meters for self performance...these 2 fights are actually good indicators for DPS. They may vary within each fight, which i expect, but not on back to back performances when i use different gear.

Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights.

Gruul is simply a melee fight for me, nothing else to do. Mag past the channelers is the same thing, with no cube assignements you just sit there and DPS - (needless to say i reset my own meters when fighting gruul.

It would be different if i was discussing dmg totals, but instead its dps which if you can sustain for more than 2 minutes and not running out of resources, its likely you can maintain that for quite a while.

Again, sorry if this comes off as being argumentative, i just am of the opinion that you cant draw accurate parallels between a simulator and actual practice. (will never deny is a damn useful tool though)


I will admit though - it is possible that there is a relation to how much atk/crit total you need to have to overlap certain potential DPS drawbacks. Not talking directly like 50atk vrs x amount of hit, but more so.. if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.

Last edited by xkaziex : 12/14/07 at 11:10 AM.
#5629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Gruul is a terrible test fight. Even if all you do is dps, with all that running, avoiding cave ins, trying to stay below the second tank, you're never going to be doing your best.

You want to test your DPS, go to the bear boss in ZA, go to Kara and beat on Attumen. High armor, high health, pretty much tank & spank. A big sample set smooths out strings of luck.

By the by, I'm down to 63 hit rating, 28% crit, 1464 AP. JUST NOW is hit rating approaching the value of crit rating on Yo's (1.58 vs 1.64). I miss all the time and my rogues laugh at me. The ones who out damage me, anyway.
#5630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by rava
As you progress through content your hit drops, I was at ~200 hit rating during Gruul/Mag(THANKS SEBUDAI), 150 through SSC/TK, and to my current 110(which will be back up to 150 RNG willing).
Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.

[e] Grr just realised the shoulders are BoP LWer.. thought they were same as the bracers .. Oh well that screws that plan guess I'll stick with the T6!

Last edited by Mox : 12/14/07 at 2:11 PM.
#5631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Areus
Malan: From what Yo! posted earlier I believe he said the Executioner was the same procrate as Mongoose.

From my own experiance with +hit, I run around 90HR+talents, its nice to have, but only if you dont sacrifice anything else to get it. You will almost ALWAYS see better returns when adding AP/Crit/Armor pen to your gear. From the melee group that my guild runs, we are ussually the top5 for damage and I fall in there under the rogues right with the furywar and retpally and I miss a good percent of the time. If the gear would allow me to get more +hit I have no doubt that enh shaman would own on damage.

Another good baseline for DPS/Damage is if your guild is Morogrim if your guiild is still running SSC. While the water tombing can get annoying at times, it is a pretty static tank and spank type of fight that can allow for gear comparissons week-to-week if you are keeping logs of your damage done.
#5632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Mox
Yeah the T5 > T6 lvl gear transition is when your hit gets hammered by loot thats clearly itemised for hunters, it's not really until the very end of T6 that you can get the best loot (aka leather *sigh*) that has alot of +hit on it.

Soon as Grips of Damnation finally drop I'll get them + the swiftstrike shoulders to replace my 2 pieces of T6, that'll put me around 150 hit too, which imo I would never go below.
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
#5633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by xkaziex
a lot more words
Without some WWS I'm skeptical to believe that composition is the same, dps time was the same, and that the fight length was the same(read: the longer a fight goes the less dps you do). You may not click on Mag but that doesn't alter the fact that banished time varies and quakes throwing you everywhere. With Gruul you deal with cave ins, slams, silences, and a much higher threat cap; I stand by my original statement that these are terrible fights for DPS samples.

The best thing I can suggest is to run combatlog and upload WWS to get a better idea or look at your DPS in relation to your raid if it is as consistent as you say. Until blizzard puts in a +3 fully debuffed unlimited hp dummy that doesn't move sims are the best because of their controlled environment.
#5634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Traker
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).
#5635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by xkaziex
if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.
Actually, a quick run on the simulator shows that the value of hit rating DECREASES relative to other stats as your attack power decreases. It isn't by much.

Look, just know your stat weights. I can't stress this enough. Knowing how much each stat is worth compared to others allows you to quickly evaluate gear, find out which upgrades offer the biggest bang for the DKP and not waste your time grinding useless stuff.

Being an Enhancer is easy. If a piece is an upgrade, it's an upgrade. There's no magic levels to maintain. No need to shift gems around. Just know your stat levels and you're good to go.
#5636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Skwat
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|

Last edited by Skwat : 12/14/07 at 6:41 PM.
#5637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Skwat
chardev.org - World of Warcraft Character Planer .beta

Here you get 1900+ AP and 207HR, you may find better i think, but those are pretty awesome stats.

PS : and yeah, that's a lot of leather stuff :|
Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).
#5638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by Traker
I'm gearing up into T6 items, and i'm following a completely different route than you :P

Im at 55 hit right now and dont really plan to get it a lot higher, and according to all the simulations and theorycrafting thats a GOOD thing. I have 1700 AP and 31.8% crit currently. I do plan to pick up 2~ items with more hit on them but I dont anticipate going much higher than 90-100hit (till sunwell and then its all up in the air).
Well, you can't NOT get 100+ hit rating if you are getting the best shaman gear available...

I'm at (with kings) 1866 AP/34.18% crit/19.91% hit/301 AI, with procs active I'm riding 3k+ AP/40% crit in raids... at that point hitting becomes ALOT more valuable to me than an extra 20 or 30 AP that I could have had from other gear choices.

Last edited by Mox : 12/15/07 at 12:57 PM.
#5639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skwat
Originally Posted by rava
Why are you cluttering this thread with that garbage? Big grats, you can put items on a character sheet. You have no haste, eckspertise, armor penetration, terrible crit, and you're sub'd in elemental(wtf@call of thunder?).
I may be wrong, but the discussion was about getting more AP or Hit, so my point was just to get both if you want to. Of course you won't be able to have everything. I wasn't here to tell you what is the best stuff.
And for the template, it was just a test. I read this topic and i know that enh/resto is still the best template, but again it was not what i wanted to talk about.
Sorry for that poor reply, won't happen again.
#5640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.
#5641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Myul
Sorry Mox but you can get a lot of hit rating with the best gear avaible. Just check that profile.

1828 AP, 182 HR, 35 ExR, 32.6% CR, 252 ArP and 2.35% Haste

Low Hit Assumption is true for starting karazhan up to ~ mid T6 content, until you can get your hands on the "rogue" gear. There's hit allmost everywhere.

You could swap [Madness of the Betrayer] for [Berserker's Call], but i don't think there are more real upgrades avaible, crafted shoulders and bracer with haste can only be decent sidegrades.
He said can't not, meaning that with the best gear you will have over 100 hit.

@Skwat: Apologies, but to me it was someone I've never seen linking a ctprofile of a shaman with t6 equiv gear when the discussion was about dropping AP for Hit. I do realize that you had good intentions, however.
#5642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Quigon
UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
to
UR Uptime = [late] \left ( 1 - (1 - \text {crit\%})^{\text{HitsPer10sec}} \right ) \times 100[/late]
Add the x's back into latex
#5643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by rava
You should take another look at the gear available, with an optimum set you should have about 160 hit rating(illidan hat, supremus neck, teron cape, arch bp, rage/teron bracers, vengeful weapons, illidan ring, and council trinket). The only things that you can remotely argue are the supremus neck due to the lack of stamina and council trinket due to low armor pen values(I don't want you to tell me why you think different items are better in different slots).
A few things about this set;

Most of TBC bosses in this game have major raid-wide damage, and with no CloS/Evasion/Sprint/exploits I am very wary of items with zero stamina on them. Thus I don't plan to pick up boneweave girdle/supremus neck until noone else in the raid needs it.
I also don't see myself getting the S3 Arena Weapons for...well...lets just say a long time...
From the simulations ive run at least right now, berserker's call is > madness of the betrayer (I particularly like it because it can be used simultaneously with Shamanistic Rage).

You are right though, I hadn't really looked at the final hit rating of my optimal set but I was just surprised how low my hit had actually fallen (when I replaced my S2 arena weapons with Syphons, and a few other changes) and overlooked a few things ill be picking up even within the immediate future to pump my hit back up.
#5644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Quigon
LaTeX stuff
You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?
#5645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Problem actually is Malan instead showing formula atm it just shows notice Latex failed.
#5646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
That's because I haven't fixed it yet.
#5647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Quigon
Originally Posted by Malan
You're kidding, that one escape character was the only problem?
For all of my equations that was the only fix.

Here is your last change:

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

\text{Windfury} = \left(\begin{array}{l l}\text{WF Proc Rate} & \text{Wpn Speed} > 3 \\\text{WF Proc Rate} \times \text{Wpn Speed}/3 & \text{Wpn Speed} < 3\end{array}\right)

I guess it parses out carriage returns as /br(reaks). Also your right parenthesis was off, just copy and paste that line.
It gets hectic without white space now, some of my latex codes for the calculus section on armor returns are 3 solid lines of characters. Better here than a PM though - perhaps it'll help another person with latex in their posts.
#5648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Courn
To miss or not to miss

Hello @ all,


newly signed in, a few minutes ago. Thank you for the information in this thread. Nice work! Frees me from some misunderstandings.

I have a question that bothered me for a while since my raidleader keeps critizing me for missing much too often against the bosses at Karazhan. In his opinion. Needless to say I see it otherwise. ;-)

As far, as I can tell my Recount addon says my miss numbers are reading under 10 % against lvl 70-71 normal mobs when in melee. I'm partially PvP (Veteran-Non-Set-Epics), Arena and T4 equipped and do know, that a DWing Enhancer has a base chance of 24 % of missing.

Further, I can provide some Webstats of our tries against the 'Leerhäscher' at The Eye.
at url: Courn - WWS

So my question in this matter is, does my leader read and interprete his numbers correct?
Is there a magical miss-percentage for any Enhancer out there to keep his misses below?

Some stats unbuffed: AP 1258, hit rating 86, Crit 27,21%

If you need additional information, let me know.

Thanks in advance for your advice!
#5649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tambard
I have the Cataclysm Helm, and I recently picked up Coif of the Jungle Stalker, which all AEP weights say is about 8AEP better (assuming you're valuing hit at 1.4). But when I put it into simulators, no matter what buffs I add or remove, the Cataclysm Helm comes out ahead. Now, I noticed I don't have a set value for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, so my question is...

According to Rogues I've spoken to, their AEP for the Relentless Earthstorm is 42. And I know that it varies by crit rate, but with an approximation of 30% crit, what would the AEP from this metagem be? I was thinking of taking their AEP and subtracting the 12 AP they get out of the AGI on it and valuing it at 30, but I wasn't sure if anyone had posted a more accurate way to value it that I had missed. Thanks for reading and for the thread as a whole!
#5650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Scan back a few pages and you'll see the discussion I had about this as well. You need almost a 60-80 EP upgrade before the meta gem can be phased out. Basically if you already have a meta gem helm, there's no way to replace it with a non meta gem helm.

Quigon, thanks mate!
#5651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hulkling
Originally Posted by xkaziex
Well, I dont say this to be argumentative so please dont take it that way. Considering i do the comparison vrs myself, its easier to compare, at the same time, because I am the raid leader, these past 3 weeks ive made sure that i had nothing else to do but DPS (not choice really in gruul) during those fights. Also, keeping in mind that our roster is static, farmed content (meaning people are up always putting down the same debuffs), and tracking my own meters for self performance...these 2 fights are actually good indicators for DPS. They may vary within each fight, which i expect, but not on back to back performances when i use different gear.

Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights.

Kazie,

Sims can't be made for each fight. Reacting, moving, having to chain heal yourself on Lootreaver because your healer took balls to the face all factor into how much damage you'll be doing. The reason simulators all assume you can stand there and dps your heart out is because while you're standing there with no distractions, your dps should be consistent. When the next thing happens and you have to move, you get into position again and continue dpsing.

The point is to show that while you're able to dps, this piece of gear is better. Every fight regardless of how interrupted and disjointed is going to be about those few moments where you can dps consistently added up over the course of the fight.

hit rating is given a stat weight, not a 100 hit rating cap. Hit rating is still valuable until you hit the actual hit cap, but the net gain versus the same itemization points spent in Strength just wouldnt favor the hit rating.

What you're basically saying is "I choose to believe that I do higher dps with my hit rating despite evidence that suggests otherwise."

I'm not sure where your consistency stuff is coming from. Higher dps while you're on the boss is going to equal higher dps total.
#5652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by xkaziex
Well, I dont say this to be argumentative so please dont take it that way. Considering i do the comparison vrs myself, its easier to compare, at the same time, because I am the raid leader, these past 3 weeks ive made sure that i had nothing else to do but DPS (not choice really in gruul) during those fights. Also, keeping in mind that our roster is static, farmed content (meaning people are up always putting down the same debuffs), and tracking my own meters for self performance...these 2 fights are actually good indicators for DPS. They may vary within each fight, which i expect, but not on back to back performances when i use different gear.

Your response again, somewhat illustrates the problem that im talking about. Yo's simulator is awesome, but assumes a certain controlled environment that is very difficult to achieve. No one works like a computer so peoples ability to adjust, overall gameplay (meaning how they usually play in general) and reaction times are going to come into play. This is why i dont compare myself to other enh shammans when im trying to determine my own outcomes, instead I do it agasint myself since i will have a higher consistancy between fights.

Gruul is simply a melee fight for me, nothing else to do. Mag past the channelers is the same thing, with no cube assignements you just sit there and DPS - (needless to say i reset my own meters when fighting gruul.

It would be different if i was discussing dmg totals, but instead its dps which if you can sustain for more than 2 minutes and not running out of resources, its likely you can maintain that for quite a while.

Again, sorry if this comes off as being argumentative, i just am of the opinion that you cant draw accurate parallels between a simulator and actual practice. (will never deny is a damn useful tool though)


I will admit though - it is possible that there is a relation to how much atk/crit total you need to have to overlap certain potential DPS drawbacks. Not talking directly like 50atk vrs x amount of hit, but more so.. if you have 1500 atk (for instance) that going +-25 hit doesnt make a huge difference, where as doing the same with say 1100 atk will. I hope that makes sense.
What you said makes no sense at all. Your personal sample size in regards to DPS is not significant enough to decide anything. Have you gemmed +hit and test it for more than 20 Gruul? Have you regem Strength and then test another 20 Gruul?

Your consistency argument also does not make sense. If you're arguing that your damage is more even with +hit, that only means that Gruul is NOT good damage indicator because of the fact that you NEED to run in and out. Strength also offers even damage scale by scaling up all of your crits and hits. Hits just make one of your misses from 100% combat table into a hit.

Yes, simulation is not everything, player ability and skill has some factors in it. However, we will always hold everything else constant when we do theorycraft because the results will be distorted otherwise.
#5653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmater
Can someone tell me what the 0/42/19 spec is? I see a reference to it in the first post, but I can't find anything else about it. I tried making a 0/42/19 spec, but it seems that my current 0/45/16 spec is the best. HELP!
#5654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Ilmater
Can someone tell me what the 0/42/19 spec is? I see a reference to it in the first post, but I can't find anything else about it. I tried making a 0/42/19 spec, but it seems that my current 0/45/16 spec is the best. HELP!
0/42/19 was a pre-2.3 build that excluded 3 points in Mental Quickness, and had either 3/5 Totemic Mastery + 5/5 Healing focus, vice versa, or some other variants

With the change to Mental Quickness, this build isn't as viable for pure raid dps/support anymore
#5655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tornhoof
Heya folks, I'm back from my necessary break to get used to my new job.

So whats that maxdps.com page?
I've looked into the enh shaman formulas they used, they are extremely simplified, even for a closed form expression, they should be off by atleast 10%. I think Disquette already stated it, it's missing wf cd, it's missing 36% wf proc in dual wild. The simple flurry code should result in around 10% less uptime atleast.
#5656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
Maxdps.com is simple but its powerful tool for get newbies out there.
White dps seems accurate.
WF dps seems to be too high.
SS dps seems to be correct now after few changes.
Also shocks seems to be ok.
WF scales with haste too much and haste is overreted. Hit, crit, expertice and str/ap values are ok for me.
I hope that WF formula get better accuracy soon.
#5657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmater
Originally Posted by david0925
0/42/19 was a pre-2.3 build that excluded 3 points in Mental Quickness, and had either 3/5 Totemic Mastery + 5/5 Healing focus, vice versa, or some other variants

With the change to Mental Quickness, this build isn't as viable for pure raid dps/support anymore
So 0/45/16 is the best now then, right?
#5658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Morelis
I see items like [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] popping up in many ideal gear caculations, what I'm wondering though if the values people are using for expertise are taking into account the incremental nature of expertise rating? Or has that problem been fixed?
#5659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Morelis
I see items like [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] popping up in many ideal gear caculations, what I'm wondering though if the values people are using for expertise are taking into account the incremental nature of expertise rating? Or has that problem been fixed?
I actually value expertise quite high. Since it affects both yellow attacks and white attacks. +Hit affects white attacks, Expertise affects both white attacks and yellow attacks. White attack accounts for about 50% of damage, WF and SS about 30% and 10%, and Shocks about 10%. Since Expertise affects Tying Windfury to Autoswings and Yellow attacks, that puts white attacks + white triggered WF at 74% and SS+SS triggered WF at 16%. Expertise will effect 90% of combat table, while hit contributes to anywhere from 50% to 74% of combat table. (50% because it at LEAST affects all white attacks, 74% because white still needs to hit to have a chance to proc windfury) The value is between these two because hit by itself does not affect Windfury's miss rate, but does increase Windfury's proc rate to an extend.

So using my personal value of hit @ 1.84 AEP accordingly to Yo! Simulatr (2518AP, 27.16% crit, 17.84 hit)
My expertise value weigh anywhere from 1.84/0.5 x .9 = 3.3 (high end) to 1.84/.74 x .9 = 2.23.

Assuming my math method is correct, point for point expertise is actually better than strength, even after kings. I haven't done math critical analysis in a while though, so it is likely (and welcomed) for one of the math experts to come out and correct me.
#5660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Morelis
Originally Posted by david0925
I actually value expertise quite high. Since it affects both yellow attacks and white attacks. +Hit affects white attacks, Expertise affects both white attacks and yellow attacks. White attack accounts for about 50% of damage, WF and SS about 30% and 10%, and Shocks about 10%. Since Expertise affects Tying Windfury to Autoswings and Yellow attacks, that puts white attacks + white triggered WF at 74% and SS+SS triggered WF at 16%. Expertise will effect 90% of combat table, while hit contributes to anywhere from 50% to 74% of combat table. (50% because it at LEAST affects all white attacks, 74% because white still needs to hit to have a chance to proc windfury) The value is between these two because hit by itself does not affect Windfury's miss rate, but does increase Windfury's proc rate to an extend.

So using my personal value of hit @ 1.84 AEP accordingly to Yo! Simulatr (2518AP, 27.16% crit, 17.84 hit)
My expertise value weigh anywhere from 1.84/0.5 x .9 = 3.3 (high end) to 1.84/.74 x .9 = 2.23.

Assuming my math method is correct, point for point expertise is actually better than strength, even after kings. I haven't done math critical analysis in a while though, so it is likely (and welcomed) for one of the math experts to come out and correct me.
Right, it's a great stat, but unless they've changed it rating is only of use if it increases your "expertise" by a whole number. So for the shoulders mentioned above the first 8 rating give you 2 expertise, the other 2 rating are useless. I'm just wondering if that has been changed, or if the various calculations(maxdps, lootrank, etc.) take that into account?
#5661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis
Right, it's a great stat, but unless they've changed it rating is only of use if it increases your "expertise" by a whole number. So for the shoulders mentioned above the first 8 rating give you 2 expertise, the other 2 rating are useless. I'm just wondering if that has been changed, or if the various calculations(maxdps, lootrank, etc.) take that into account?
Loot Rank et al. can't really take that into account in the scores they assign to individual items, because you might have expertise rating on another item that would make the other "left-over" rating useful. In your example, if I had 2 items that each gave 10 expertise rating, I would actually end up with 5 Expertise. The best way to handle this at this time, IMO, is to under-value expertise rating a little bit, or to calculate values by hand/Excel. (I personally find that [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] are in a virtual dead heat for the best item, and since I already have the former I'm not going to get the latter until no hunters want them.)
#5662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
Originally Posted by Ilmater
So 0/45/16 is the best now then, right?
Yes, 0 / 45 /16 is the cookie cutter spec.
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I use a variant of it that removes the 2 points in Improved Reincarnation, and puts the two points into Concussion in the Elemental tree. 2 / 45 / 14
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Not for everyone, I'm one of those people blessed with a main tank and off tanks that have consistently high threat per second so I won't ever pull as long as I have salvation.

I first saw the spec on Jaffnar, don't know where he got it, but it has been nice so far, not a huge increase in shock damage, but it's noticeable sometimes.
#5663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Re: expertise, I'm currently using

brooch of deftness: 21
vashj belt: 25
shoulderpads of the stranger: 10

to make exactly 56 expertise rating, which is nicely divisible by four.
#5664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Constantine
You will say the math is wrong. Because I actually use some global cooldowns like SS, racials, summoning totems, shamanistic rage, water shield etc. And ofc sometimes I hold back shocks to prevent overaggroing. I realize that. Thank you. But still.

My build is 15/46/0 with Concussion and Revebration. During raids (KZ, no post-Kara experience with this shaman) my shocks hit for 1200-1700. Overall DPS is 700-800. So eventual DPS produced by shocks - damage divided by 5 (divided by... let's say 8) - varies as 240-340 (150-212.5). Which is way more than 10%.

(And ofc. There are situations when I use weapons and hold back shocks. But sometimes I can't apply weapons for short periods while actually striking with shocks. Like chasing/moving to trash/adds.)

Correct me/explain me this please.
#5665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
david0925
Originally Posted by Constantine
You will say the math is wrong. Because I actually use some global cooldowns like SS, racials, summoning totems, shamanistic rage, water shield etc. And ofc sometimes I hold back shocks to prevent overaggroing. I realize that. Thank you. But still.

My build is 15/46/0 with Concussion and Revebration. During raids (KZ, no post-Kara experience with this shaman) my shocks hit for 1200-1700. Overall DPS is 700-800. So eventual DPS produced by shocks - damage divided by 5 (divided by... let's say 8) - varies as 240-340 (150-212.5). Which is way more than 10%.

(And ofc. There are situations when I use weapons and hold back shocks. But sometimes I can't apply weapons for short periods while actually striking with shocks. Like chasing/moving to trash/adds.)

Correct me/explain me this please.
The Math i'm doing is assuming a non-Elemental Devastation build. It is rather easy to modify it to your needs.

Assuming that your Shock damage does X, then for the math above, for every 90%, or 0.9, replace it with your value, which will be (1-X), or 100-X %

This means that expertise will be weighed different for you, with lower than expected value.

Then, look at your windfury proc % in relation to dmg, and divide it proportionally among white attacks and Stormstrike (say typically 4-5 : 1 for a enh/resto). This isn't completely accurate since Stormstrike would be hit capped while White is not. Which means assuming there are equal swings, SS will proc a bit more windfury. However, this is just to help you get a ballpark's view at how much expertise weights. When I do have time in the future, I'll look at this in a furthermore quantative method.

Last edited by david0925 : 12/16/07 at 1:29 PM.
#5666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Traker
Originally Posted by Disquette
Re: expertise, I'm currently using

brooch of deftness: 21
vashj belt: 25
shoulderpads of the stranger: 10

to make exactly 56 expertise rating, which is nicely divisible by four.
Am I doing this wrong?

I am trying to compare Belt of 100 deaths to the other high level belts using my stat weights.
(str=2.2, ap=1, hit=1.8, crit=2.0, ignore armor=.3,agility=1.9,haste=1.6)
Also of note I am assuming 50% white damage, 40% yellow damage(WF+SS).

Using the formula from the first post I am getting the following:

The belt has 25 expertise so;
25/3.95=6.WHATEVER. 6*3.95* (40*1.43+ 50)/50*1.8=91.4 is the value of the expertise on belt of 100 deaths.
so the total belt is 187.1(using my stat weights)+91.4=278.5 value from the expertise belt.

compared to say... Don Alejandro's Money Belt at 233.7 value obviously using my stat weights.
#5667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Edit: L2read
#5668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
I want to apologize in advance for the following question, I am almost positive the answer is here somewhere but as of yet I haven't been able to find it. But its a fairly simple question, hopefully someone knows.

Do Tsunami Talisman and Madness of the Betrayer share a Internal Cool Down with each other?
#5669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Aeolian
I want to apologize in advance for the following question, I am almost positive the answer is here somewhere but as of yet I haven't been able to find it. But its a fairly simple question, hopefully someone knows.

Do Tsunami Talisman and Madness of the Betrayer share a Internal Cool Down with each other?
No.
#5670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Aeolian
Heh, thanks for the reply. Found an answer to it in guild just before coming back here.
#5671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Traker
Am I doing this wrong?

I am trying to compare Belt of 100 deaths to the other high level belts using my stat weights.
(str=2.2, ap=1, hit=1.8, crit=2.0, ignore armor=.3,agility=1.9,haste=1.6)
Also of note I am assuming 50% white damage, 40% yellow damage(WF+SS).

Using the formula from the first post I am getting the following:

The belt has 25 expertise so;
25/3.95=6.WHATEVER. 6*3.95* (40*1.43+ 50)/50*1.8=91.4 is the value of the expertise on belt of 100 deaths.
so the total belt is 187.1(using my stat weights)+91.4=278.5 value from the expertise belt.

compared to say... Don Alejandro's Money Belt at 233.7 value obviously using my stat weights.
Looks about right to me.

The way I'd do this is to find how much expertise you're wasting, subtract it out, and do the rest of the calculations based on that. Let's say you have 0 other expertise rating. That means you should only use 24 of the 25 ER on the belt for dps calc purposes. ER, as a rule of thumb, will be valued at about 2 times your hit rating.

So, I'd say that the ER on the belt would be worth 1.8 x 2 x 24 = 86.4

I'm assuming you did the rest of your math correctly, as it jives with my memory that the Vashj belt is pretty easily the best in the game for most people's set ups.
#5672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Meli
Originally Posted by Meli
Hello

First of all escuse my english thats not very good. I'm french, so I'll try to make my best.
Thanks for this tread that I find very interesting.

I couldn't read the whole tread because there are to many pages and it'll take me to much time.

I have a Shaman as you can suppose. With my guild, we have clean SSC and we are in front of kael'thas that (I think) will be down soon.
So I've begin to look at item that are dropped in BT and Hijal.

My shaman is currently (unbuff) :
1592 AP
30,01% crit
112 hit

The most interesting items in BT/Hijal has a lot of crit/agi but not a lot of AP/force or hit in comparaison with T6.

My question is: Does it exist a cap crit or is crit/agi always so interresting when you have a lot of it? Have we to consider crit as < than 2EP after a specific value?
I'm surprised that force/AP as not a higher value after the 2.3 that make increase the horion damage with the AP. Could you explain?


Sorry if the aswers are somewhere in the thread and thank a lot for aswering.
Nobody can help me?
#5673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Check the first post.
#5674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hotiedraenei
Originally Posted by Disquette
Re: expertise, I'm currently using

brooch of deftness: 21
vashj belt: 25
shoulderpads of the stranger: 10

to make exactly 56 expertise rating, which is nicely divisible by four.
I currently have no items with Expertise rating and from this post I am debating if I want to get the Brooch of Deftness. My guild is currently doing Karazhan where we are able to take down all the bosses except Nightbane (No one has the quest complete to fight him).

My current Neck item is the Haramad's Bargain with the 26 Str and 25 Agi. Should I loose the Strength and Agility to pick up the expertise? I am also currently the top melee dps in the guild since we no longer have any rogues raiding due to a guild split a few weeks back.

My current stats unbuffed:
1428 AP
27.82 Crit
92 Hit Rate
0 Haste Rating

Thanks for any advise.
#5675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Courn
I have a question that bothered me for a while since my raidleader keeps critizing me for missing much too often against the bosses at Karazhan. In his opinion. Needless to say I see it otherwise. ;-)
Malan et al: I know this is a variation on the dreaded hit rating discussion, but I'm answering it since my raid leader gave me crap about this too.

First: a thing to keep in mind is that WWS includes dodges and parries in its miss percentage; to casters, who can't be dodged or parried, the miss chance may seem unusually high. Provided that you are spending as much time as you can behind a mob where you can't be parried, 17% miss+dodge+parry doesn't seem all that bad.

Second: Shamans don't gain rage or combo points or energy as a result of hits. We have on-crit procs and with 30% crit we can approach maximum uptime even with no hit. Windfury is an on-hit proc but due to dual wield mechanics and the 3s cooldown its proc rate doesn't benefit much from +hit. Without these side effects, autoattacking 1% more often is the same as doing 1% more damage.

Third: Windfury and Stormstrike can be dodged or parried but never miss. Together, these make up almost half of our damage. Adding hit rating will not affect these abilities at all. Adding crit/AP will. Thus you will always get more benefit out of +8 strength or +8 crit rating than +8 hit rating.

Conclusion: with shamans, it's all about quality, not quantity. (Apparently it's not just shamans, either...I know rogues, hunters and dps warriors who have been trading hit gems and seeing substantial benefits)

Piece of advice? I notice you're wearing all mail, and have a fast offhand weapon. Replacing some of that mail with leather, and getting a slow offhand weapon, will offer you much more bang for your buck than stacking hit rating. I'm at just about the same progression level as you, and I have about 250 more AP thanks to all this leather. Do I miss the survivability that 13% extra DR would give me? Well, on trash I'm dead in 2 shots, you're dead in 3 shots, and we both live forever if we don't pull threat.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/17/07 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Malan had a good point
#5676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Second: Shamans don't gain rage or combo points or energy as a result of hits. We have on-crit procs, but these have a fairly long uptime and we can approach 100% uptime with very little +hit.
That's a mistake, you don't need *any hit* at all for on-crit procs to work because crits are a separate entry in the attack table. If you had 0 hit and 0 hit talents but somehow still had a 30% crit rate, you'd have 100% unleashed rage uptime.
#5677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xhaos
Quick question about Yo!'s simulator, do I have to add the +3% hit from Nature's Guidance into the hit textbox in addition to the hit I get from hit rating? Or is that 3% already calculated in my character sheet?
#5678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You mean 9% Hit (assuming you have 3/3 in NG which would be pretty silly if you didn't). And yes, you have to add it to the % from your gear, its not part of the character sheet.
#5679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xhaos
My bad, I thought that the Dual Wielding talent listed in the Procs & Stuff tab referred to the Dual Wield specialization, no wonder I was getting absurdly high hit rating values. Thanks for that Malan.
#5680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Whodi
I'm kind of confused on what I'm doing wrong. From running the Simulators and gearing up the way the posts show, Im still sitting pretty low on the DPS scales. I've seen other parses where you guys are standing strong with the Rogues with 1200 - 1400 DPS, the Highest I've achieved is 1150 on a Tidewalker fight. I'm not using macros for the twist right now, but I am using Disquetes bar and generally have the totems on time about 95 percent of the time. (I will use the macros as it will make my life much easier)

On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?

here is the parse on the fight if your interested

Whodi - WWS

and here is my armory too

The World of Warcraft Armory

Thx for any help
#5681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Whodi
On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?
You lack Sprint and Ranged attacks. The hunter is able to DPS a lot longer on multiple targets than you can. The rogues are able to reduce movement time between targets at various points of the fight. So yah perfectly reasonable.
#5682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Aeolian
Not for everyone, I'm one of those people blessed with a main tank and off tanks that have consistently high threat per second so I won't ever pull as long as I have salvation.

I first saw the spec on Jaffnar, don't know where he got it, but it has been nice so far, not a huge increase in shock damage, but it's noticeable sometimes.

I like the 2 points in concussion, as from a pure dps standpoint, after you put the minimum in resto to get 3% hit and totem range, you have two points left over. They can either go into imp lightning shield, anticipation, or slightly more shock damage. I figured shock damage would be the straight dps option, as you get more mileage out of it then LS, and anticipation shouldn't be something to rely on in pve anyway. Or you would be gemming for HP in that case.
#5683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0evilution
Originally Posted by Malan
You lack Sprint and Ranged attacks. The hunter is able to DPS a lot longer on multiple targets than you can. The rogues are able to reduce movement time between targets at various points of the fight. So yah perfectly reasonable.
DPS is calculated by your time in combat (shown as DPS time in WWS), moving between targets only effects your damage done (it may actually hurt dps a bit because i think WWS uses a 5 second rule or something to calculate DPS time). As long as you are attacking from behind, using a shock every time it is available, drinking haste pots if you can, and keeping your totems down (<3 searing totem) there isnt much more you can do to increase your DPS. I can currently hang close to the rogues (just started Hyjal 4/5 and BT 4/9) but i assume this will start to change as they gear up in their T6
#5684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Whodi
I'm kind of confused on what I'm doing wrong. From running the Simulators and gearing up the way the posts show, Im still sitting pretty low on the DPS scales. I've seen other parses where you guys are standing strong with the Rogues with 1200 - 1400 DPS, the Highest I've achieved is 1150 on a Tidewalker fight. I'm not using macros for the twist right now, but I am using Disquetes bar and generally have the totems on time about 95 percent of the time. (I will use the macros as it will make my life much easier)

On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?
From a quick glance at your gear I would say if you're getting 1150 dps on tidewalker you are doing a pretty good job, you aren't going to see anywhere near 1400 dps untill you're well into BT/Hyjal gear (Anyone who can do 1400 in T5 I want to see logs of!).

As for Kael It's not exactly a fight that you can compare damage on, theres so many random factors and different class roles combined with periods where you can't even dps, anywhere around 900-1000 dps would be easily acceptable.

So I guess just keep up the good work!
#5685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by evilution
I can currently hang close to the rogues (just started Hyjal 4/5 and BT 4/9) but i assume this will start to change as they gear up in their T6
Your dps should jump up pretty rapidly once you get your t6 as well, as the itemization there is much better overall then the T5 selection. I started replacing SSC hunter gear with rogue gear almost immediately when we got to Hyjal/BT. Access to the epic gems helps a lot as well with how fast we scale with more STR.
#5686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Hotiedraenei
My current Neck item is the Haramad's Bargain with the 26 Str and 25 Agi. Should I loose the Strength and Agility to pick up the expertise?
Brooch of Deftness will, at the least, eventually be a higher-DPS item for you (if it isn't already), and it comes with 48 STA instead of 0, so it's a switch I'd make.

Originally Posted by Malan
That's a mistake, you don't need *any hit* at all for on-crit procs to work because crits are a separate entry in the attack table. If you had 0 hit and 0 hit talents but somehow still had a 30% crit rate, you'd have 100% unleashed rage uptime.
To be completely correct, 0 hit from gear is needed if you have the 9% hit from talents, because WF and SS misses cannot crit. (You would still have very good UR uptime with 30% crit and 0 hit from talents, but it might be 95% and not 100%.)

Edit:
Well, nevermind, I just ran it through Yo's sim and apparently you have 99% UR uptime instead of 100%. Could just be a rounding difference. Still, crits from WF and SS do help Flurry uptime. (At 30% crit, Flurry uptime increases from 81% to 83% as you go from 0% to 9% hit.)

Last edited by Rob : 12/17/07 at 2:08 PM.
#5687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Whodi
On Kael I pulled 909 DPS where the Top 3 (2 Rogues and a Hunter) pulled around 1200 each. Does that sound right?
Your gear is good, your spec is good. Competing with rogues -- who are rightly the best melee dps in the game, and who are also getting 5-15% extra damage from Windfury -- is rough, and shouldn't be your goal. In my experience if you beat a rogue, it's only because you outgear him.

Hitting drums of battle, chain chugging haste pots and totem twisting are good ways to maximize your personal DPS, as is timing your Brooch with haste procs. But none of these is getting you 300+ dps, only T6 can help with that.

My only criticism from that WWS is that your damage % from shocks seems low, and it may be because you weren't using Flame Shock. FS is the BEST shock we have in just about every situation, and using it every other rotation will also open up 2 charges of Stormstrike debuff for your elemental, who will love you for it.
#5688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
#5689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xargoth
First of all, hi all, im a long time lurker that decided to get out of the shadows .. thank god for this awesome post

I was wondering what addons do you guys use to measure your dps ? atm i use Violation but i dont really like it, it doesn't lists your misses and the different attacks only, pure dps.
#5690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Xargoth
First of all, hi all, im a long time lurker that decided to get out of the shadows ..

I was wondering what addons do you guys use to measure your dps ? atm i use Violation but i dont really like it, it doesn't lists your misses and the different attacks only, pure dps.
That should be discussed in the Addon section of these forums.

Also "Search" function gave me a few links on this very same topic.
#5691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ikuturso
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
Ignoring the 2 roll system for SS, your chance of not critting once per 10s is ((1 - (crit precentage /100)) ^ chances to crit) * 100. Assuming 2.6 weapons hasted 75% of the time with Flurry and a wf procrate of ~5s, you're getting 9.4 regular chances to crit plus roughly 6 chances from wf/ss. That's ~15 chances to proc UR in 10s. At 26% crit, the chance is 99%. At 30% crit, the chance drops to 99.5, which in sims usually rounds up to 100%.

Quibbling inside that 1% isn't worth our time.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/17/07 at 5:34 PM.
#5692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Courn
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Malan et al: I know this is a variation on the dreaded hit rating discussion, but I'm answering it since my raid leader gave me crap about this too.

...

Piece of advice? I notice you're wearing all mail, and have a fast offhand weapon. ... Do I miss the survivability that 13% extra DR would give me? Well, on trash I'm dead in 2 shots, you're dead in 3 shots, and we both live forever if we don't pull threat.

Thank you for backing up my position and arguments in my discussion with my raidleader. Perhaps I should seek another? :-(

I have to thank for your given advice, too. At the moment I'm wearing Mail 1. out of RP-reasons and 2. at rare occasions I have to tank i.e.: 'Blindauge' (Maulgar). Seems to me you are right, Leather is a worthy consideration if it comes to optimizing dps. But I always have to share it with the Rogues.

My fast OH axe ist the next item I hope to get rid of. I'm currently working on it.

Pulling threat? Only over my dead body! ;-)

Last edited by Courn : 12/18/07 at 5:39 AM.
#5693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Odd (?) formula

Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Doing math is hard.
Windfury + Stormstrike = (1-((1-0.01*35)^4.4))*100 = 84.97
Yeah, way off.
This is supposed to be a formula for calculating Flurry uptime with 35% crit. How is it derived?
(1-0.01*35) is obviously the non-crit percentage, but what's the ^4.4 from?

Thanks.
#5694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Courn
Thank you for backing up my position and arguments in my discussion with my raidleader. Perhaps I should seek another? :-(
Only if he's unreasonable when presented with the math. Interestingly enough, I just picked up an upgrade that increased my hit rating by about 2% and dropped my crit by 1% and my AP by about 10. DPS remains stable (but now I have the T4 set bonus, which my melee group will love).

2. at rare occasions I have to tank i.e.: 'Blindauge' (Maulgar).
Well, don't burn your mail! I keep a shield and a set of high(er) stam & armor gear for "tanking" and arena. Just remember, though: SR and your shield offer a greater benefit than all your other armor combined.

Seems to me you are right, Leather is a worthy consideration if it comes to optimizing dps. But I always have to share it with the Rogues.
True, but if your RL wants you to increase your DPS he's going to have to give you access to gear that will do it. And the fact is that the best mail at the T4 level is worse for enhancement shamans than the best leather. Compare [Maulgar's Warhelm] with [Malefic Mask of the Shadows]. You're talking about a 40+ EP difference (and all from hit rating, no less).

Don't neglect badge rewards -- no need to compete with rogues for that, and it is killer stuff -- and there's good craftables as well. More than half of my current gear is rep rewards, badge rewards, craftables and PvP gear.

My fast OH axe ist the next item I hope to get rid of. I'm currently working on it.
A great replacement is only 18,000 honor away.
#5695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ikuturso
Theoretically 100% UR uptime is only possible if all of your hits always crit. With a less than 100% crit rate, there is always the minimal chance of not critting at all for 10 seconds.
I realize this is from yesterday so this is a late reply, but I really feel the need to emphasize just how monumentally wrong this statement is.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if SR reduces damage before or after armor mitigation?
#5696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan
I really feel the need to emphasize just how monumentally wrong this statement is.
It isn't wrong, just implausible and not worth mentioning.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if SR reduces damage before or after armor mitigation?
Multiplication is commutative. x% of y % of n is the same as y% of x% of n.
#5697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
It isn't wrong, just implausible and not worth mentioning.
No, its wrong (as well as being implausible and not worth mentioning). He says that only a crit rate of 100% can produce 100% uptime on SR, which is incorrect. You don't need a crit on every swing to achieve that, you need 1 (or more) crits per 10 second period for 100%. You simply solved for the "close to 100%" solution which we all subscribe to - that a 30% crit rate achieves "good enough" results to call it 100%, but somewhere between 30% and 100% crit you would achieve a full 100% uptime before hitting 100% crit rate.
#5698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nacht
It's not wrong. Without a 100% crit rate, you can enter combat and get a miss/dodge/parry/glancing blow on your first attack, meaning UR does not proc. It won't proc until that first crit. That means that technically you have not achieved 100% UR uptime. It's a moot point and purely academic. The discussion is pointless. In practice, 30% crit rate or more establishes a constant uptime. That's all that matters.

Can we please consider the case closed now a move on to more valuable discussions, like whether hit rating is better than crit rating? :P
#5699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Wundorn
This is supposed to be a formula for calculating Flurry uptime with 35% crit. How is it derived?
(1-0.01*35) is obviously the non-crit percentage, but what's the ^4.4 from?
Total number of attacks in the time before Flurry would expire. With only autoattacks you use 3 here (since Flurry lasts for 3 charges), but with a 40% chance of an attack per normal attack it gets bumped to 4.2 (1.4*3=4.2), and I estimated Stormstrike low at a further 0.2 attacks using dual 2.6 speed weapons as an assumption. However the 4.2 number also ignores any potential WF proc overlaps, so I think a value between 4.25 and 4.5 is going to be reasonably accurate for most shamans.

He says that only a crit rate of 100% can produce 100% uptime on SR, which is incorrect.
This is in fact very correct, however the odds of it happening are so ridiculously low that it is really not worth discussing.
#5700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0frozndevl
Originally Posted by Malan
You mean 9% Hit (assuming you have 3/3 in NG which would be pretty silly if you didn't). And yes, you have to add it to the % from your gear, its not part of the character sheet.
This would explain my very high hit EP numbers using YO!'s simulator which went against everything else that has been discussed. Also, my trinkets are currently active use, so I have to manually add the prorated AP into my totals. Does this also need to be done for Blood Fury since I speak orcish?
#5701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yes, follow the same convention of figuring out the "average" value of the buff if you were to use it ever CD on the dot. The trinket section in the OP has numerous examples.
#5702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Sorry, I didn't mean to start discussion about 1% differences in UR uptime, but to point out that since we are concerned with various kinds of modelling, we want to be as accurate as possible. Some might feel it's unnecessary nit-picking, but when wording statements, it's better to say e.g. "nearly 100% UR uptime" than "100% UR uptime", as mathematically a pure 100% UR uptime is only possible with 100% crit rate.
#5703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I mean if you are constantly picking on that point I think I should have to add that you are still wrong, no matter what.

If you want it academically correct you definitely have to factor in the length of the Fight you are talking about. Once we have that we can calculate how likely it ist that during that time you will have a Streak of Dodge/Misses/Noncrits which must be longer then 10 seconds. This is simply done by multiplying the chance for a noncrit hit * the number of hits you do in 10 seconds. For sake of argument just take 0.7*0.7*0.7 ...
If you have the length of the fight you can then calculate how improbable it is you get anything else then 100% UR uptime...
#5704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
#5705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Darkmantle
Originally Posted by Rob
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
Making it not a random number generator.

Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky.

Last edited by Darkmantle : 12/19/07 at 1:22 AM. Reason: Awkward phrasing
#5706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
+ Added Expertise support. It's weight is calclulated based on increasing expertise rating by 39 (= 10 Expertise = -2.5% dodge)
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating
+ Added DPS value of 1 EP
+ Added Stonebraker's totem option. Proc modelled with 50% on each shock outside 10 sec hidden cooldown

Originally Posted by Karok(EU)
Yo,
Will "use" trinkets be added aswell sometime? Currently they are ignored.
Yes I do understand that replacing on-use procs with averages is not absolutely correct so I do plan to add them, low priority though.
Originally Posted by SentinelBorg
There must be a bug in the UR calculations. Disabling it, only decreases my DPS by a small value. Also it would be nice if the nerfed proc chance of Ashtongue Talisman (50%) could be implemented.
Thanks for reporting the bug - it is high-priority now. Will update talisman too.
Originally Posted by Atren
I keep forgetting to ask one addition to Yo simulator -- could you add 4-set bonus of Arena set (9 sec SS) to it?
It was there long time ago: Procs&Stuff tab -> 4-piecs set bonus -> Earthshaker (PvP)
Originally Posted by Malan
Yo!, are you using the same PPM for Executioner as for Mongoose?I did a lot of short run sims this morning trying to figure out if I wanted Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner with my new weapon setup (Syphon/Tide) and was showing Executioner/Mongoose as about equal with Mongoose/Mongoose, but Executioner/Executioner was a 10-20 DPS drop.
Yes it uses same PPM. Your result with double Executioner being a drop is expected because Executioner does not stack with itself. So, when two executioner procs "overlap" that part is wasted opposite to when Executioner and Mongoose are up at same time providing synergetic result (crits and flurried strikes on less armor).

Last edited by Yo! : 12/19/07 at 2:13 AM.
#5707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sancho
Originally Posted by Rob
It wouldn't surprise me if WoW's PRNG is coded to eliminate really "unlucky" streaks and/or really "lucky" streaks, so I think all this discussion would be purely academic in nature.
I've thought about this too, but wouldn't it be very easy to disprove? For example, parse combat logs for instances where there were 6 or more non-crits in a row with a huge dataset and check the next attack for crit rate to see if it is consistant.

Thanks for the update Yo!
#5708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Darkmantle
Making it not a random number generator.
Any computer generated series is only pseudo-random, this would certainly be a PRNG but just not one you'd want to use for cryptography.
Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky.
It wouldn't take too much effort to keep a queue of the last N attack results and if none of them were the desired result, make the next attack a crit and make the next attack after that your desired result.

There is one very good reason I believe the PRNGs in WoW might not be 100% random.
Undesirable quest drop streaks. If there are millions of WoW players and hundreds of quests you do from level 1-70 you are going to have a nontrivial number of people who are in that 0.01% of "super unlucky" on quest item drops. If you have a 20% drop rate for some [Bear Ass] then it will take 5 kills on average to get 1 [Bear Ass] but over 1% of the people are going to kill 20 bears before getting your first [Bear Ass]. (1-.2)^20 = .0115 This is not a desirable outcome for Blizzard, because people get confused and think they are in the wrong spot for the quest, or get frustrated and sick of the game.

Given that Blizzard might be adjusting the drop rates on quest items to prevent "unlucky" streaks, it's not a far leap to wonder if they are adjusting the combat resolution mechanics similarly to prevent an "unlucky" run of misses (which would surely be equally frustrating and occur equally often. If you have a 24% chance to miss, then there's a 0.000000634*100% chance you'll miss 10 times in a row. If a level 20 rogue misses 10 times in a row, the mob he's fighting probably just killed him. How many mobs do you fight while leveling up? How many characters do you have? How many players are there? At some point, Blizzard may say there's only a certain level of unluckiness they are willing to tolerate and take the quest drop algorithm over to combat resolution as well.

Originally Posted by Sancho
I've thought about this too, but wouldn't it be very easy to disprove? For example, parse combat logs for instances where there were 6 or more non-crits in a row with a huge dataset and check the next attack for crit rate to see if it is consistant.
Yeah, I've thought a bit about doing that. It would be doable if you had a big enough data set but there are a lot of complicating factors to deal with (higher crit vs. lower level mobs, lower crit vs. higher level mobs, resilience on PvP targets...) so you'd also need a very clean data set, which makes it slightly tougher. Maybe once WoW's combat log 2.0 is out.

Originally Posted by Yo!
+ Added Expertise support. It's weight is calclulated based on increasing expertise rating by 39 (= 10 Expertise = -2.5% dodge)
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating
+ Added DPS value of 1 EP
+ Added Stonebraker's totem option. Proc modelled with 50% on each shock outside 10 sec hidden cooldown
Thanks Yo!

Last edited by Rob : 12/19/07 at 2:05 AM.
#5709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0lorka
Thank you Yo always a great job !
#5710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Sancho
Would it be completely unreasonable to assume that AP on yourself would yield similar DPS gains to that of AP on similarly geared melee DPS, and therefore equate it into EP?

I'm talking, of course, about the T4 2-set bonus. If that assumption is at least somewhat accurate, I can't see giving up my bonus anytime soon with my current EP values


Typical group setup:

myself - 26.4 EP
warrior - 26.4 AP
ret pally - 26.4 AP
rogue - 13.2 AP
rogue - 13.2 AP
----------------
total - 105.6 "EP"

Even with the shoulderpads of the stranger (200ish EP) I already have, I can't see replacing my T4 head (225ish) and shoulders (150ish) with anything I have available. With the T5 head (280ish) it's about even. Did any of of you T6 players keep the bonus until MH/BT gear?

I know this has been touched on before, but I'm honestly surprised there isn't more discussion on it. It's really an incredible set bonus.

Last edited by Sancho : 12/19/07 at 2:39 AM.
#5711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Darkmantle
Making it not a random number generator.

Also to make such a system you would have to store all the previous values you got out of the random number generator and look for patterns in them and try to even those out. Which all would take far too much effort when you can just have your random number generator be normal and streaky.
Store only number of "quest item not dropping" event and if it is more than unwanted xxx - set chance for next item to 1. This adds only 1 hidden field and 1 additional check for event. (Compare it to efficiency nightmare of implementing Darkmoon Card: Wrath). I think that this system is in place in WoW.

+ Fixed bug that prevented Unleashed Rage from being properly switched off when UR radio button was unchecked

Last edited by Yo! : 12/19/07 at 3:07 AM.
#5712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Sancho
Even with the shoulderpads of the stranger (200ish EP) I already have, I can't see replacing my T4 head (225ish) and shoulders (150ish) with anything I have available. With the T5 head (280ish) it's about even. Did any of of you T6 players keep the bonus until MH/BT gear?

I know this has been touched on before, but I'm honestly surprised there isn't more discussion on it. It's really an incredible set bonus.
Yeah, I didn't replace my 2-piece T4 until I got both the T5 helm and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, FWIW. (This was back before there was expertise on the Shoulderpads, though.)
#5713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Sancho
Originally Posted by Rob
Yeah, I didn't replace my 2-piece T4 until I got both the T5 helm and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, FWIW. (This was back before there was expertise on the Shoulderpads, though.)
Even taking into account the expertise I still only get about 200 EP for the shoulderpads of the stranger with my EP values ( using only 8 exp rating since I don't have any other expertise rating), which puts those about even with T4 using my T4 2-set "EP value".
#5714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Atren
Problem for group wide buffs is that AP is not of same value to others as it is for us. In fact we have one of the lowest AP of melee classes imo. So actual value of T4 2-set is very hard to decide, and could use some input from those respective classes: rogues, warriors and retribution paladins.

The reason why other classes values applies to it is that because AP is the base of evaluation for other stats so if for example shamans have highest value for AP then will overvalue the bonus considerably probably.

EDIT:

If you get such buffs and individual boost setups equal then always go for individual boost. This is based on cold reality -- if someone in group dies then group buff value diminishes while individual will not. And well if you die yourself, it wont matter as group buff gone as well.

Last edited by Atren : 12/19/07 at 4:44 AM.
#5715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Rob
It wouldn't take too much effort to keep a queue of the last N attack results and if none of them were the desired result, make the next attack a crit and make the next attack after that your desired result.

There is one very good reason I believe the PRNGs in WoW might not be 100% random.
Undesirable quest drop streaks. If there are millions of WoW players and hundreds of quests you do from level 1-70 you are going to have a nontrivial number of people who are in that 0.01% of "super unlucky" on quest item drops. If you have a 20% drop rate for some [Bear Ass] then it will take 5 kills on average to get 1 [Bear Ass] but over 1% of the people are going to kill 20 bears before getting your first [Bear Ass]. (1-.2)^20 = .0115 This is not a desirable outcome for Blizzard, because people get confused and think they are in the wrong spot for the quest, or get frustrated and sick of the game.
AFAIK it's been "proven" that loot generation is at mob creation - i.e. the Blasted Land mobs with the different visible weapons or various boss spawns killed multiple times. Check out the relevant threads in this forum.
Quest drops just aren't visible when you aren't on the quest (see examples of having completed a quest while your party member hasn't yet and him being able to loot your mob corpse).

Originally Posted by Rob
Given that Blizzard might be adjusting the drop rates on quest items to prevent "unlucky" streaks,
Check out thottbot et al for quest drops or "random" drops like BOP enchanting recipes. You'll see people bragging about getting items on the first kill versus people complaining about having killed multiple 100s to 1000s of a creature and not getting the drop.
Look how many write stuff like " I got the first 4 in the first 4 kills, but the fifth/last one took me another 25 kills".

Originally Posted by Rob
it's not a far leap to wonder if they are adjusting the combat resolution mechanics similarly to prevent an "unlucky" run of misses (which would surely be equally frustrating and occur equally often. If you have a 24% chance to miss, then there's a 0.000000634*100% chance you'll miss 10 times in a row. If a level 20 rogue misses 10 times in a row, the mob he's fighting probably just killed him. How many mobs do you fight while leveling up? How many characters do you have? How many players are there? At some point, Blizzard may say there's only a certain level of unluckiness they are willing to tolerate and take the quest drop algorithm over to combat resolution as well.
How many times have you died while leveling up? Without checking why you died?
Let's see: 0.000000634*100% * 9'000'000 players => 63.4% chance that this happened to someONE somewhere (although this math is probably wrong ...). And that someone could have died easily anyway, because he had two mobs on him or something. Or he might have been in a party, got some heals and survived. Another one killed the mob, and his unlucky streak might have been distributed over two mobs (e.g. 5misses on first mob, first mob gets killed by party member. 5 misses on next mob). Or he might have died after the first 5 misses, rezzed, and died again (another 5 misses) and just decided it wasn't his day?

hrm, actually this is pretty much offtopic for this thread.
#5716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Mano
AFAIK it's been "proven" that loot generation is at mob creation - i.e. the Blasted Land mobs with the different visible weapons or various boss spawns killed multiple times. Check out the relevant threads in this forum.
They have concluded that it's impossible for us to know when loot is generated, and the old bug where thorns/etc. getting the tap on bosses with loot tables that were different for each faction resulting in no loot proves that at some point, some mobs didn't generate loot on spawn. Also, the Blasted Lands mobs are almost certainly just different mobs with the same name that share a spawn.
#5717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
1 - (1-0.000000634) ^ (9'000'000 * avarage number of player killed mob)
Chance that 10miss streak has happen least once.
#5718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mano
Originally Posted by Shalas
They have concluded that it's impossible for us to know when loot is generated, and the old bug where thorns/etc. getting the tap on bosses with loot tables that were different for each faction resulting in no loot proves that at some point, some mobs didn't generate loot on spawn.
Hmm, didn't know about that bug. I could easily think that the boss mobs just had two different loot tables associated at their creation and chose which table to use (alliance vs horde) on first damage. (although admittedly this doesn't make much sense from a logical point of view)

Originally Posted by Shalas
Also, the Blasted Lands mobs are almost certainly just different mobs with the same name that share a spawn.
You mean they specifically coded a mob there which could drop [Glowing Brightwood Staff] AND showed it beforehand? Because the first time I heard about these mobs was because someone saw one of them walking around with this huge glowing staff, killed him and got that specific loot.
And they also coded other mob spawns with hardcoded loot table of a grey dagger AND showing it in his hands?

Maybe I'm just sarcastic but I don't think so.

If we really want to go down this way, I'd suggest heading to the appropriate topic (either http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t16988-t...oot+generation or RNG Raiding System: Time for a change? or even another one, I'm not sure which is the better one).

Anyway, until some kind of "proof"* is shown that Blizzard is doctoring with the RNG against extremely lucky/unlucky strings, I won't believe in it.

* And as this is most likely on the order of "proving a negative", I don't think there will be any proof.

Originally Posted by Pitbuller
1 - (1-0.000000634) ^ (9'000'000 * avarage number of player killed mob)
Chance that 10miss streak has happen least once.
yeah, looks much better, but I can't really be bothered to find out what kind of value this gives back But assuming that a player has at least killed 1 mob, this is already above 99.99%. I.e. it's virtually certain it's happened to someone. Poor bastard
#5719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
+ Added DPS value of 1 EP
With this new feature I'd love for someone to modify Pawn so that it would show the DPS potential of items in the tooltips.

@the above discussion, there are plenty of threads in general that discuss the randomness of loot and they all end up closed by the mods. Lets not get into that here.
#5720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Malan
With this new feature I'd love for someone to modify Pawn so that it would show the DPS potential of items in the tooltips.
And enhancer as well
#5721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
I severely doubt Blizz does any monkeying with the RNG -- too many variables to maintain in a system that has to at least have the appearance of being realtime. In fact, I'd guess that all their random numbers are either pre-generated to a list that's read in a loop or done on a separate chip -- true PRNGs are just too processor intensive for a system that must no doubt make millions of random determinations per second.

Of course, systems being what they are the most random thing about ANY MMO RNG will be the order in which the numbers are requested by clients, making the actual distribution of randoms or existence of patterns less meaningful.
#5722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Guys, lets get off the RNG topic please, its been discussed to death.
#5723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aximous
By the way Malan, what's about the wiki? You said it's going live on monday but there's no sign of it.
#5724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Ryley
Edit: Delete this, found the answer I was looking for. Apparently I fail at typing in a whole two words into a search box.

Last edited by Ryley : 12/19/07 at 1:09 PM.
#5725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yichimet
For those of you wanting to use Yo!'s sim with a Leopard Mac, Apple just put out a developer preview build of Java 6 for Leopard 10.5.1. If my memory serves me, no Java 6 was the problem with the sim and Macs before. I haven't tested it yet, though.
#5726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roomooster
Hi guys,

I apologize if this is a bit off topic. However, I can't seem to throw up a new post on this topic since I seem to have restrictions. Just registered to this site so still a little noobish with how this forum operates =P I have browsed through the forums but more or less haven't found much information to what I have been looking for.

I am a raid specced 2/45/14 Enhancement Shaman and fairly geared. Only reason some of my gear is arena gear is because I have not come across or has dropped anything better for me. My guild and I are currently in SSC for only bout 6 days or so in total and we are already 1 boss away from Vashj. Without downtime (due to fights which benefit more through ranged attacks and AOEs) I am usually in the Top 3-5 highest dps in our raids. Much of my itemization and gear/weapon choices are based on this threads theory craft on maximum dps in raids. As far as gear, itemization, weapon selection, etc. are concerned, I am very satisfied with how detailed this thread has come. Furthermore, it has helped me jump from a middle dps'er (in raids with damage meters) to a high dps'er competing with epiced out rogues for first place.

My interest beyond this now is in terms of PVP as enhancement. I have looked in the PVP topic in the other section but it has not answered much of my questions since it pertains to arena team setup. I do have a good amount of PVP experience as I have dueled all classes numorous times. Therefore, I know my class; his strenghts; weaknesses as well as which class I do or do not have an advantage over. I have a fair amount of PVP (2 Vengeful and 2 Merciless pieces) gear with veteran writs, waists, & Vindicator boots. I also have Dory's Ebrace and more soon to come. My 2h weapon of choice is Stormherald and for DW'ing I use Dragonstrike & Fury. As far as weapon choice used in pvp, from my experience it all breaks down to what class I am fighting. For example, for dueling a arms warrior I would use Stormherald and dueling paladins/elem shams I would DW in increase hits and attempt to increase their cast times.

Lets look from a fair dueling 1v1 rather than arenas (regardless of pvp or pve gear)
Classes I am confident in taking down:
1. Mages
2. Other Shamans
3. Paladins
4. Priests
5. Arms / fury Warriors

Classes I currently have problems with (regardless of pvp or pve gear)
1. Rogues (no dought singlely the most OP class against enhance shamans regardless of their gear. A good rogue in mixed blues and greens can still give me a hard time. Providing they keep me stunned)
2. Druids - whether they are feral or moonkin. Feral druids stun off first attack and once you get out he/she switches to bear form. Moonkin = root, kite, HOTs, star/moonfire and my frost shocks are easily removed with them switching in/out of forms.
3. Warlocks - aka. Fear ftw! lol All they need to do is fear, bolt grounding/tremor totems and continue fear and dots. Oh and mind you a felguard is slapping you silly at the same time.
4. Hunters - Frost trap, scatter shot, aimed shot oh and mind you their pet is also nibbling away at you.

Not to say these classes can't be beaten by an enhance shaman; each of these classes have weaknesses as well. Locks/hunters I can take out providing I can get close. Rogues can't survive my burst dmg if they can't keep me stunned. Druids eat Windfury hard if you catch them in normal or cat form. Just majority of the time these classes give me much more difficulty.

Now getting to the point (finally! =P) I am not questioning PVP gear as it is specifically designed by Blizzard for these kind of encounters. There is only so much you can do about stun, fear, etc. I do find however a heavy weakness and I beleive it's really got to do with the types of gems I have socketed. At the moment, all my gear is socketed with +8 strengh and or +4 crit & +4 strength. I realize these are the best gems to socket in PVE but how bout PVP? Past research has told me to stock heavily on resiliance. However, I've beaten a good number of epiced out gladiator/merciless gladiator enhancement shamans and warriors with 400+ resil. Meanwhile I myself only have about 225 resil due to a combination of pve/pvp gear. But I dueled a friend who is a feral druid with tier 4 dps gear in tank form seems to dodge 5 or 6 of 10 melee attacks including Stormstrike/WF. and what normally hits for 800 reg white dmg now hits for 300ish; as well as, dodged or small WF hits. In my PVP gear i currently have 81 hit rating. I swapped out with my PVE gear and upped it to 101 (2handed) to 122 (DW) hit rating and saw a large improvement in the amount of attacks landing. So does that mean I should be stacking on +8 hit rating and +4hit / +4agility gems? Mind you I have already capped the 9% hit rating for DW throught talents (3%) for 2 h. I have the same problem with rogues and hunters but i realize that is due to the high agility and rogue evasion. Furthermore, this brings me to the Mongoose vs. Executioner question as well. I have read on how it works for rogues and fury warriors but very vaguely on enhancement shamans. Should I be enchanting my offhand with executioner and keep mongoose on mainhand? With executioner procing and when i get my S3 leggings, it would total to 1204 ignore armor.


I apologize if this topic has been covered before and I may have missed it. If it has, please direct me to the right place to find it. Your feedback would be greatly appreciated! =) I chose to post on this website because I feel this is the most informative. aka - elitistjerks lol. Please don't reply harshly if you may find these questions kinda noobish, we all go through a learning process sometime =) Thanks in advance!
#5727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
There is a thread on PVP enhancement over in the PVP forum on this very site. You might want to repost this over there. This forum here is meant for general PVE theorycrafting.

Edit: Here is the link to it:

[Shaman] Enhancement - Partner-/Weapon-type choice, 2v2
#5728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Aximous
By the way Malan, what's about the wiki? You said it's going live on monday but there's no sign of it.
Yah I thought so too Boe is trying to do a lot at once though.
#5729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Roomooster
Originally Posted by Kasi
There is a thread on PVP enhancement over in the PVP forum on this very site. You might want to repost this over there. This forum here is meant for general PVE theorycrafting.

Edit: Here is the link to it:

[Shaman] Enhancement - Partner-/Weapon-type choice, 2v2
Thx Kasi
#5730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Audrix
Originally Posted by Yo!
+ Changed export string to Enhancer addon as it now supports 3 digits and expertise rating
I recently installed the addon and been playing with it a bit. Mostly becuase we are working on Kael atm so just wana make right choice on items I should pick before we leave SSC/TK. But my question is how do you export the data string from enhancer. thx
#5731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Nemaa
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?

Last edited by Nemaa : 12/19/07 at 5:08 PM.
#5732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?
Sounds like a problem with how Enhancer imports the data. Shouldn't really matter though...gear comparisons are still valid, all the values are just 10x what they normally would be :P
#5733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Well, it does matter because I'm pretty sure Enhancer hard-codes the values for certain procs as well as gem slots.
#5734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bargle
Duh...wasn't thinking about those. In any case, it's not hard to go into the Enhancer config and just move the decimals over.
#5735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Nemaa
Yo!: Thanks for the update, I was waiting for the expertise support for a long time!

However I found a bug in the enhancer string export:
AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;

Importing this string results in an AP=10, CritRating= 20.6 and so on...
Might be a bug in enhancer though.

[e] MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. Am I right?
It is not the bug with enhancer it is time gap between us not simultaniously updating utilities.
MH/OH expertise input textbox means expertise and not expertise rating. You are right. EP value is for rating though.
#5736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Yo, seems you forgot to set the Ashtongue trinket proc rate to 2.3 values, at least, the Forensic Report gives me a 90% uptime on it Otherwise, great work on the sim, keep it up.
#5737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Karok(EU)
Confirmed, 88% uptime here, ran a 15k hour sim.
Thanks for the update Yo!

Some really really minor things:

Is 10 shocks/2 minutes realistic? Chain shocking on a static npc (max potential dps) we can asume a near-perfect rotation bearing in mind interference of SS cooldowns) would this number not be closer to ~15 (10 shocks/min as perfect rotation)

Would it be possible to get a visual on the stonebreaker's totem proc rate as you did with the trinkets?

Typos: Procs & stuff tab: "Average number of shocks...

(E): Be gone quote!

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 8:47 PM.
#5738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Shokkina
I have some problems with Yo's simulator

Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS.
Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think)
anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator:
AP 1575
crit 31.38
hit 16.17
haste 4.63
boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem)
armor pen 287
MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6
OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8
spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura)
procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes
enchants: Mongoose/Executioner
for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle).

I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply

Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem.

Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 7:40 PM.
#5739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Shokkina
I have some problems with Yo's simulator

Fist of it all it shows a DPS that is far superior to what i am capable of at the moment. On anetheron(mostly tank and spank fight) i can reach 1500 dps at max(without flask) but the simulator says 1917 DPS.
Also on my first run of the simulator i got negative EP values for both agility and crit. i runned the simulator another time(i forgot on the first run to put executioner instead of mongoos on offhan) and the problem disappeared. Maybe is something that should be looked into(negative values can only come from errors in program i think)
anyway for the difference in expected dps this are the values i put in simulator:
AP 1575
crit 31.38
hit 16.17
haste 4.63
boss armor 2990(6200 - 5xsunder - faerie fire feral. I thought that since you cannot check for armor debuffs you have to input the boss armor after these debuffs. It worked fine before the last update. My fault if this is the problem)
armor pen 287
MH DPS 97.6 speed 2.6
OH DPS 100.2 speed 2.8
spell hit 4(talents + draenei aura)
procs/stuff: dragonstrike, tsunami, relentless earthstorm diamond, stonebreaker totem, 16 shocks in 2 minutes
enchants: Mongoose/Executioner
for buffs: kings, might, shout, mark, leader of the pack, strength of earth, roasted clefthoof(no flask/potions/drums of battle).

I ask this question cause it is getting really hard choosing the right gear at this level and i don't want to need items that i will find not that much useful. Thanks for any reply

Edit: also AEP values give me some questions. In previous runs of the simulator hit rating was always at ~1.6 EP value. Now it says 2.62 a value greater than STR. This is quite strange because would mean that a hit rating gem would be more valuable than a STR gem.
The sim seems to give the Dragonstrike proc unrealistic uptime which is a little bit of why your dps is higher in the sim. A few other things, most boss armor (except teron and 1 other boss I'm pretty sure) is 3690 with sunder ff and cor. The sim results vary a lot when calculating stats if I'm remembering right, so it is best to run it multiple times and take an average. I'd review your logs and see if you are getting 16 shocks/min as well.
#5740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Shokkina
Originally Posted by rava
The sim seems to give the Dragonstrike proc unrealistic uptime which is a little bit of why your dps is higher in the sim. A few other things, most boss armor (except teron and 1 other boss I'm pretty sure) is 3690 with sunder ff and cor. The sim results vary a lot when calculating stats if I'm remembering right, so it is best to run it multiple times and take an average. I'd review your logs and see if you are getting 16 shocks/min as well.
I did another test with 10000 hours. Almost same result. I don't think changing the number of shocks will make a huge difference anyway(i try to time my totem replacements to favor my shock rotation, preferring only stormstrike to a shock in almost any situation)

Oh and i got agility(and crit rating) AP: 0 (yes ZERO). I think that means there is a problem here...

Other strange things on this run:
forensic report: normal strikes(for WF, ss, and white damage): 0
crit strikes for WF and SS: 0.944(that means 94% crit right?)

I still think that is something wrong here...

Anyway thanks for the fast reply

Last edited by Shokkina : 12/19/07 at 8:04 PM.
#5741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Shokkina
Nevermind i realized now that befor my 31.38 crit % where other numbers so i did input something like 2531% crit O_o
What a noob mistake, but in the crit field(since it is short) i did not manage to see thos numbers :|
Sorry for such a noob question then :|
#5742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah I was gonna say that it sounded like you put some insanely high values in there someplace.
#5743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
I was hoping someone could explain to me why upgrading my weapons would be a DPS downgrade, according to Yo!'s sim.

Currently weilding Dragonstrike+Merc Pummeler

According to the sim if I upgraded to 2x Syphon of the Nathrezim, it would be a 14 DPS nerf.

Rising Tide + Syphon is not looking too good either, as a 15 DPS downgrade.

(Yes, I changed the stats gained according for each weapon changed and the Dragonstrike selection on the "Procs & stuff" page.)

I was really looking forward to upgrading my weapons to these, and thought they would really increase my damage "cap" since the rest of my gear isn't too shabby, I thought my weapons were holding me back, but I just don't know why it's a downgrade and not a huge upgrade, does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something?
#5744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)

Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time.

(E): Unneeded Quote gone.
#5745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Paradox
does the sim value the dragonstrike proc extremely high or something?
Someone on the previous page just said this to be the case, so that's probably why. (Make sure you are doing 10k hour sims.)
#5746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Karok(EU)
Due to the large amount of variables there will allways be a small percentage of difference between similar setups and a couple of sim runs (I think)

Have you tried running the same setup with 10.000 hours simulated? And if you have, try do it a couple of times you will probably find there is a small difference each time even tho the hours ran on the exact same gear each time.

(E): Unneeded Quote gone.
I realise that there can be small differences when re-running the sim, but I was expecting to see a large dps increase, but it's a small decrease, if I ran it many times it would fluctuate slightly between 1-10 dps probably, i've never ran a sim as long as 10.000 hours, 2000 takes about 5minutes as it is, but I can't imagine it coming out as an increase.

I guess what the poster above me said could be the culprit, is there any modelling on the Dragonstrike proc that Yo! can update the sim to correct it, so it's not valued so (incorrectly?) high?
#5747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Karok(EU)
Well, 10k+ is advised for a reason, the longer it runs the bigger the data pool to get the stats from. I would really suggest just running it at 10k or more a couple of times and compare the results. Grab a book/movie or smash some pvp face while waiting for the sim to complete.

Edit: Malan how are the T6 item values comming along? Still missing on the First post ;-)

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 12/19/07 at 11:15 PM.
#5748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Paradox
i've never ran a sim as long as 10.000 hours, 2000 takes about 5minutes as it is,
When I do my personal EP values after getting new gear I run 10x 10,000 hours and then average them. Yah it takes awhile but you get some crazy outliers sometimes if you don't do that. I just run it at work while I'm doing other stuff.
#5749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
#5750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?

Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
#5751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Joy
For Yo's! simulator is it recommended to just add Judgement of the XXX (3%crit), Imp hunters Mark, Expose weakness improved + trinketed battleshout to your base character stats?

Then for bloodfrenzy / Imp Sanct aura / ferocious insp just multiply the final dps by 1.03 or 1.035ish(blood frenzy)?

Also is there any suggested way to model bloodlust? 33% haste x 45s/fight duration?
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Originally Posted by Paradox
I see, where is 10k advised by the way? I always just did 1k or 2k hours like it says for working out aep values on the sim itself.

Something about the stonebreakers totem too.. you say it is modeled on shocking out of the cooldown (every 10 seconds), but this conflicts with "shocks per 2 minutes", and well, personally I shock everytime it's up, perhaps 2 versions of it would be nice, one for shocking everytime the shock CD is up, the other for every 10 seconds when the stonebreaker is up?
10k is just the standard we use in this thread. Yo! suggested a while back in it using 10k hours anytime you calculate EPs. 1k is the minimum for somewhat reliable results but will still vary from run to run. 10k is stable from run to run.
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
You need to add the impact of BoK to your AP and Crit. Since Yo's sim doesn't have fields for STR and AGI, you must add 0.2*STR to AP and AGI/250 to crit %.
#5752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
Ok, say i have 3 weapons.

60 dps, 2.5 spd (A)
62 dps, 2.3 spd (B)
85 dps, 1.8 spd (C)


Initially i had been using B/A WF/WF, but when i got C i wasnt quite sure what to do with it. For now its C/A WF/WF, but it seems to do almost identical damage as A/C WF/FT and A/B WF/WF. I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination. The actual stats on the weapons are moot, as they are almost identical (I would link to what they are, but i'm not at home right now.)

I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
#5753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
WF scales a lot better. All tests done by people who knows their shit in this thread points to WF being the only buff to use on two slow weapons. Epic daggers with FT cannot compete. You can always browse the odd 1-200 pages on this topic or run the tests in Yo!'s sim linked in the OP.
#5754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
ok, I have a lame dull flameworthy question that I'd love a quick and dirty guesstimate answer for:

swords rogue
daggers rogue
mm hunter
bm hunter

Grace of Air or Windfury? (assuming all else is equal)

a) GoA
b) WF
c) who cares?

In TK the other night we discussed this in /party for ages until the MM hunter stated that if I didn't stfu about totems he'd ask to be moved to another party
#5755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
If you want to please everyone and be the most efficient, twist both GoA and WF.
If you don't want to twist, just pick one totem and stick to it.
The effect of GoA on your hunters depends a lot on the fight, their playstyle, and so on.

You are the only one that has possibly access to the numbers that will help you to determine whether GoA for your entire party will be more DPS than WF for your rogues.
I play a lot (outside of raids) with my guild's hunters and rogues, and I know that, if I took my shaman for a raid, and had a group like the one you listed, I'd use GoA if, for some reason, I didn't feel like twisting.
#5756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
So wait it's you and those four classes in the group? Definitely GoA. Even if one of the rogues was a warrior, I'd probably still drop GoA(assuming I'm not twisting for some reason).
#5757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by alexandertheti
I know WF is supposed to out DPS FT in almost all situations, but even when the weapon is that fast? I had hoped that the large increase in the actual weapon DPS would make up for it, but that doesnt seem to be the case.
Windfury always outperforms Flametongue on your main hand weapon and you should never have a dagger there. Windfury almost always outperforms Flametongue on your off hand weapon (you'd need huge amounts of AP and a faster-than-1.8s dagger to change that).

I know it says this in the first post you ignored, but weapon speed matters far more than any other factor on a weapon -- a 2.6s weapon in the 60s can, as you've seen, outperform an 80 dps dagger. Don't pick up the dagger and think you can make it work -- let it get sharded.

Weapon choice is one of the most important factors of shaman gearing. You NEED 2.6s or slower weapons, even a 2.4 is gimpy and not worth your time. At your gear level, you want to aim for easy upgrades like Drakefist Hammer, Harvester of Souls, Demonblood Eviscerator, Reflex Blades or the easiest upgrade of all, the S1 one-handers. For ~36 hours of PvP (easily doable by the end of the year) you can have a pair of 91.2 dps 2.6s axes or hammers. Why waste your time testing daggers from Karazhan?

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/20/07 at 10:16 AM. Reason: The Guile of Khoraazi still sucks.
#5758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0alexandertheti
@Toots

I've read the OP many times through, i just wasnt sure if it still applied when there was that much of a difference in DPS.

As for taking the dagger, guild bank has more shards than it can handle, and the only reason i took it is because everyone else in the raid already had one. No really, even the mage =\ (Same thing with the druid staff from illhoof.) I was just hoping for a really easy upgrade as i took the third healers spot while my already-geared guildmates destroyed karazhan for badges.

Either way, ty. =) I'll still be coming back to these forums, but i'll read a little more before i post something next time.
#5759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
No that's exactly what the OP says - that FT on a much higher DPS weapon will now outperform WF on a slow weapon with inferior DPS. A 20 DPS upgrade on that dagger with FT will do pretty good. However, a 100 DPS 2.6 and 100 DPS 1.8 will perform best with WF on the 2.6 over FT on the 1.8. If you have lower end wpns an epic dagger upgrade with FT can be a good upgrade, you just have to recognize when to replace it again.
#5760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draegan
Armory Links and/or WWS Links

I'm looking for Armory and WWS links for Heroic/T4 Geared enhancement Shamans and T5 Geared enhancement Shamans for comparison.

If anyone could take the time to PM your own links, I'd appreciate it. Thank you in advance.
#5761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by alexandertheti
I've spent a few hours in BG's, dueling, and even grinding on mobs trying to determine which is the better combination.
Any Boss NPC is going to have a 10% higher resist (or more) rate than anything you just listed here, which makes any "sort of close" comparison go to "Windfury is better".
#5762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Rob
I would suggest adding trinketed Battleshout and Judgement of the XXX manually if these are consistently there for you. I would not add Expose Weakness (inconsistent in uptime). I would add Imp Hunter's Mark if you consistently have it.

For the others you can indeed multiply at the end, but that's only necessary if you want an exact DPS number. (If you do, make sure you get the mob's armor after Sunder/FF/CoR correct.)

There is no good way to model Bloodlust. I would not do what you describe -- you might devalue haste rating.

Yeah I was just wanting to get a bit more accuracy because our last Teron I was over 1700dps while Yo's! sim put me around 1500.
#5763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Int deserves a small EP value

I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.

I have been treating Int and Stam as secondary stats for the last month, with the result that I'm picking up more ZA and badge leather gear to replace my mail. (I'm keeping the mail in case Bliz fixes itemization later in some way.) But I've realized that Int does have a quantifiable impact on DPS: It increases spell crit %age.

Therefore, it's easy to see what Int EP should be... But since I don't have the Int-> crit or crit multiplier numbers handy I'll leave it to someone who does.

I'm not sure this will change anything significantly since IIRC shock dps is around 10% of your overall dps in most fights, give or take, but it might make it clearer that a certain mail item was actually not worth "upgrading" to a comparable leather item, for example.
#5764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Inamorata
Originally Posted by Wundorn
I think that Int deserves a minimum EP value.
A little fast math, probably off by a little but will give you a picture. 80 int = 1% spell crit.
1% spellcrit ~0.5% more shockdamage.(probably less due to flame shock gaining so little)
0.5% more damage from shocks is roughly 0.05% more overall damage.
So you need 20% spellcrit to gain 1% damage. 20% spellcrit = 80*20 = 1600 intellect.
20 melee crit rating will also roughly increase damage by 1%.
If we have 1 Crit rating at 2 aep 1 intellect would be 0.025 (2/80) aep.

Even if my numbers probably is off you can see that intellects value is extremely low and you need 40 intellect to get the same increase in damage as 1 ap.
#5765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
We get 0.0125% spell crit/1 intellect. (I derived this by comparing the difference in spell crit and intellect between my PvP and PvE sets.) Our spells crit for 150% and not 200%, and the DoT portion of Flame Shock does not crit. With self buffs you've got about 500 +damage/heal, and a base value of 661-696 for Earth Shock which has a 43% coefficient and 377 for the direct damage of Flame Shock with a 15% coefficient for the direct damage. Let's suppose raid buffs take you up to 650 damage/heal. I am too lazy to consider Misery and Scorch so somebody else can do that if they want. If they do, they had better also factor in resists (spells should be two-roll, so a crit spell can be resisted. At least shocks are binary resist so you don't have to worry about partials...)

1% crit would give you an extra 0.01*0.5*((661+696)/2+650*0.43)/12 seconds = 0.005*(678.5+279.5)/12 = 0.399 DPS on Earth Shock and 0.01*0.5*(377+650*.15)/12 seconds = 0.005*(377+97.5)/12 = 0.198 DPS on Flame Shock. Let's call that 0.6 DPS in all for 1% crit. 0.0125% crit/Int*0.6 DPS/1% crit = 0.0075 DPS/Int. If we say 4 AP = 1 DPS then Int gets an EP of 0.03. An item with 40 int gets an extra 1.2 EP.

In other words, we don't really need to take Int into consideration. (It's nice to see that the previous poster, using a different methodology, comes up with a similar solution.)

Last edited by Rob : 12/20/07 at 8:11 PM.
#5766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
that someone came up with the same solution is simply due to the fact that the value is so small ist does not make any difference. 0.025 / 0.030 is a 20% diversion. ^^ I mean a 20% difference in anything like maybe crit or so would result in anything between 1.6 and 2.4 for crit rating. Thats the sole reason 8)
#5767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tristan
Originally Posted by Paradox
Also, i've noticed Enhancer gives AEP and AEP including BoK, should I put my stats in the sim using Kings (pretty much guaranteed each raid) or leave it out and let Enhancer just work it out when doing AEP, will it affect my values that come out of the sim?
If you are expecting BoK you should run the sim with BoK to get proper numbers.

Yo! has kindly made the values in the import string un-BoKed again for me to use in Enhancer so I can display both with and without BoK.
#5768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ardonomus
Don't know if you still want WWS parses, regardless, here's two!

Kael + first three in Hyjal
Wow Web Stats

First four in BT
Wow Web Stats

I don't think they'll be up for long though, since we're doing it the easy way with WWS 2.
#5769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnus
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
#5770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Gnus
Do we have a crit cap?
Crit value, when AP became more useful over crit.
Right now i'm thinking what to do - keep +10 CR gems or replace them with 5St+5CR gems.
My unbuffed stats are: 1664 ap, 31.69% crit unbuffed, 116 hit rating.
We do have a crit cap, but it's so high you'll be very unlikely to reach it, even if you jammed your gear full with crit gems. Iirc the glance rate is 25%, so with capped hit and expertise the crit cap is at 75% for white attacks, and 100% for yellow attacks. With your hit rating that should be roughly 58% for white attacks and 95% for yellow attacks.

Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength.

Last edited by Stopokingme : 12/21/07 at 7:41 AM.
#5771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gnus
Crit cap for me - when 100% attacks are flurried. Maybe i'm wrong.
Question is about yellow sockets, for example my new T6 shoulders have only yellow sockets, so 10str gems are not good due to socket bonus.
#5772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jerem
You don't have to go after the socketting bonus if you don't want to.

For T6 shoulders, it boils down to knowing whether 20 STR is better than 13 STR & 10 CR.

I guess it's another way of saying "convert both stats into EP, using the coefficients Yo!'s simulator gave you, and go with the highest EP benefit" ?

The only reason I could see that "forces" you to socket a gem-color that gives you lower EP values would be metagems activation.
#5773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
You can forget about getting 100% of your attacks flurried, the only real way of that happening is having a 100% crit rate. And yes, replace those 10 crit with 5 str and 5 crit, they're superior. Your gem choices for sockets should always be (if you want socket bonuses that is) Red: 10 str, Yellow: 5 str 5crit, Blue: 5 str 7 sta. The only exception to my knowledge being the jewelcrafting only 12 crit gem, which comes out superior to 10 strength.
#5774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Razzan
What do you guys think about talon of the phoenix?its a nice weapon and i thought about ''breaking the rules'',so i use it with rising tide for OH.I am satisfied by my DPS its over 1k in most of the boss fights.i use exe/mongoose for that combo,and i would like to know if mongoose x2 is a better enchant for this weapon combo.Thanks in advance.
#5775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Press009
I have been searching through this thread for a while and I still haven't really seen it mentioned yet. Is there a difference when starting out in a entry lvl raid enviroment, when selecting between the gladiator's axe/mace for MH compared to the glad's MH first wep? Since the stats (EP) are the same, and the only true difference is dmg output/gap on the high and low ends of the wep. Is it just a personal choice of choosing which one I like better or does it make a huge difference in the long run?

Last edited by Press009 : 12/21/07 at 12:21 PM.
#5776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0jlavarj
My one hang up about buying fist weapons is that they are MH or OH specific. A shaman in my guild had gotten the Merc Glad MH fist weapon, and then was power leveling blacksmithing for the drakefist/dragonmaw hammer when I pointed out that both of those were main hand specific weapons. It broke his heart. Taking the rippers leaves you without options should a better main hand come along, whereas with the axe and mace, you can just transfer the gladiator weapon into your offhand and not have to grind honor for another offhand.
#5777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Audrix
The only difference that would influence your picking of an axe or mace would be a racial. I believe orcs benefits from axes from what I have read. Other than that all 1h arena weapons are the same. The fist weapons as mention above would just lock it for MH use only.
#5778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aspartem
Ive a question to the Addon "Enhancer". I dont know why, but i cant see the Enhancer-Points like, i think, Malan posted around Page 100.
Everytime i try to add the String from CrazyShaman, Enhancer says its an incorrect String. I'm lookin trhough this Thread and other Forums since 5-6 Hours - now i just ask for help^^

Could someone explain me, how this Addon works correctly?
Could i possibly be, that "Enhancer" dont work well with the German Version of WoW?

Greetz
Aspa
#5779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Patterns...
Getting Yo!'s sim to run

So I've searched the thread for some troubleshooting ideas for Yo!'s sim but couldn't find much. I've only been able to get it to run a sim once (out of *many* times messing with it). I read one post where someone said he clicked the "Theorycraft!" button 5 or 6 times until his CPU usage on task manager spiked to near 100%. This is exactly what happened the one time the sim ran for me -- since then though I haven't been able to get the CPU usage spike that would signify the sim was active. Which is to say, I don't believe it's a matter of the sim running and I just don't realize it; I think I can't get it to begin.

Anyone have any tips for working with the applet?

Last edited by Patterns... : 12/21/07 at 11:04 PM. Reason: clarity
#5780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
If you have a Pentium 4 CPU with Hyperthreading, a Core Duo, or a Athlon 64 X2 your CPU usage will appear to spike only to 50%. Close WoW and any other applications that might use a lot of memory, even other Firefox windows -- I've noticed that the java applet is really unresponsive if you don't get it enough memory. Try using a low number of hours (100) and clicking the "Theorycraft!" button "firmly" until you see it locked in. It should come back relatively quickly. Then you can try using a higher number of hours for more reliable results.
#5781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Patterns...
Thanks Rob. So after another solid half-hour troubleshooting I discovered my silly mistake: gotta have values in all of the inputs below "Stats" on the Tracking Headquarters page. Evidently I'd been replacing the default 5 in the Haste% space with a null blank rather than a 0. Thought I'd share just in case anyone else has made/is making/will make the same error.
#5782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0smokey
Do we have final EP values for T6 geared ?
#5783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by smokey
Do we have final EP values for T6 geared ?
I don't see what purpose that serves. EP values are based on your stats and are used to determine if a piece of gear is an upgrade or not, yet you want the EP values of a shaman with no upgrades left. If I'm remembering right even with the values listed on the front page for entry level shaman the best items remain the best even with inflated/shifted EP values.
#5784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
Originally Posted by Stopokingme
We do have a crit cap, but it's so high you'll be very unlikely to reach it, even if you jammed your gear full with crit gems. Iirc the glance rate is 25%, so with capped hit and expertise the crit cap is at 75% for white attacks, and 100% for yellow attacks. With your hit rating that should be roughly 58% for white attacks and 95% for yellow attacks.

Anyway, if you have no access to 10 str gems, you should be gemming your gear with 5str and 5 crit no matter what. You should be getting superior EP from strength.
Yellow attacks have no crit cap because of the two-roll system, but white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit. I'm assuming that dodges converted to hits by expertise can't either.

So white crit cap is:

100% - 24% (glancing blows) - 28% (DW miss rate) - 5% (dodge) = 43%.

I can hit that twisting GoA with Kings and a feral druid. Even with no crit buffs whatsoever, double mongoose procs put me at just under 43%.

Ugh, guess I should look into getting an executioner enchant after all.

Edit: As Morelis and Yo pointed out, WoWWiki says I'm wrong about this. Crit cap is 43% + your hit.

Last edited by Lujaar : 12/23/07 at 2:16 PM.
#5785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Morelis
Originally Posted by Lujaar
Yellow attacks have no crit cap because of the two-roll system, but white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit. I'm assuming that dodges converted to hits by expertise can't either.
Really? If true that would be big news, but this is the first I've heard of it.
#5786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis
Really? If true that would be big news, but this is the first I've heard of it.
No it wouldn't. That's the one-roll attack table in action, and it's probably the most basic assumption that this entire thread has been operating on.
#5787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob
No it wouldn't. That's the one-roll attack table in action, and it's probably the most basic assumption that this entire thread has been operating on.
That would seem to conflict directly with the information here though that information is using old data, was this something that changed at the point the glancing rate was reduced? Just so I'm clear, you're saying that increasing hit has no bearing on the crit cap for white attacks?

edit: Just tried this with Yo's sim and using high crit rates shows that he is following the reasoning that hit does increase the crit cap for white attacks, if incorrect he should fix that.

Last edited by Morelis : 12/22/07 at 4:17 PM.
#5788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Scheme
No, what he's saying is that it wouldn't be big news, because it's a pretty integral part of melee-class theorycrafting.
#5789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Yo!
This link Weapon skill directly states
All these crit caps could be increased by increasing your ... +hit (1% increase per point)
I fail to see
white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit
in Attack table
Here is dual-wielding example that shows that
Increased hit rating can result in increased critical strike results from auto attacks
Hit
Following this logic our crit cap is 55%-60% for most players..

Last edited by Yo! : 12/22/07 at 5:36 PM.
#5790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis
That would seem to conflict directly with the information here though that information is using old data, was this something that changed at the point the glancing rate was reduced? Just so I'm clear, you're saying that increasing hit has no bearing on the crit cap for white attacks?
No, I'm saying that increasing that the statement "white attacks converted from misses to hits by hit rating can't crit" is the standard assumption. Normally, this is true. If you have 30% crit and 9% hit from talents and add 1% hit from rating, you will not gain any additional crits. This assumption has implicitly been made in every set of AEP valuations we've discussed, ranging from Disquette's original work to the numbers most people get from Yo's today.

This will only be false if you are crit capped. According to the article linked by Yo, the crit cap is 50.2%, before adding any hit rating. (Recall that glancing blows were dropped from occurring 40% of the time to ~20%.)

If you're properly specced you'll have at least 6% hit and probably 9% hit before any gear. So you're looking at 56%-59% crit cap before any gear. With Kings, LoTP, GoA, and double Mongoose rolling I'm just barely breaking 50% crit. Thus, "white attacks converted from misses to hit by hit rating can't crit". I would expect this to hold true, at least at the margin, for any shaman whose Armory profile you link me.


Edit:

Apparently, Lujaar was trying to argue that hit rating cannot increase the crit cap. The evidence I have seen suggests that this is incorrect (and the rest of this post makes the opposite assumption in calculating the crit cap). Morelis was right in correcting him.

I misunderstood what was being debated, and I took this to be another instance of "you need to hit to crit," which is a commonly held misconception we are confronted with weekly in this thread. Since the 2.1 glancing blows reduction, the crit cap has been a complete non-issue for enhancement shamans, and I haven't seen a post on it in months. I will leave both of my posts as-is in the hopes that we'll get one less "hit to crit" post.

To conclude:
* White melee attacks are resolved by a one-roll system in which your "paperdoll" critical strike percentage will occur as a percent of all swings, not of all hits.
* A theoretical "crit cap" does exist, but it is very high (52% using the numbers Lujaar gives for glancing blows, DW miss chance, dodge, and assuming 9% from talents).
* This crit cap increases as hit rating and expertise rating are obtained on gear. In practice, enhancement shamans will never reach this crit cap.

Last edited by Rob : 12/22/07 at 7:26 PM.
#5791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
+ Added Hand of Justice trinket as 1.33% on any attack for extra attack with same hand. Uses yellow attack hit chance. Adds as WF damage in report. Remember to add passive 20 ap directly
+ Added Elixir of Demonslaying
+ Changed Ashtongue Talisman proc rate to 50%
+ Changed Madness of Betrayer "real" (auto-attacks only) ppm to 1 to reflect upkeep of 40% as in game. 2.4 ppm that is used often for this trinket is total observed in game with yellow attacks, flurried white attacks, etc. and was incorreclty used by me
+ Changed DST "real" (auto-attacks only) ppm to 1 to reflect upkeep of 25% as in game (20 saec hidden cooldown)

The one proc that remains modelled not correctly is Dragonstrike.
Please post or direct me to the following data:
1) uptime that you observe in raids
2) uptime with auto-attacksonly
3) # of procs over 1 minute in raid
4) # of procs over 1 minute with auto-attacks only
5) any other info? (hidden cooldown, patch notes, etc.)

Though EP values of Elixir of Demonslaying and Mark of the Champion are trivial, I guess they are worth to be added to OP as they remain best options for specific fights.
#5792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Skeptikk
Thankyou for the updates Yo!
#5793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Hmm all the bosses in Hyjal count as demons right? Which ones in BT?
#5794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Mother Shahraz and Illidan, I'm guessing? I'm pretty sure Reliquary isn't a demon.

Btw, Rage Winterchill isn't a demon =P. All the rest is though.
#5795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Well I suppose at least 2 of the sunwell bosses are going to be demons too from what we know.
#5796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Anarkii
Supremus is a demon as well.
#5797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Lujaar
I was under the impression that converted hits had higher priority than crits, but I'm not going to argue with WoWWiki. Morelis and Yo, thanks for the information.
#5798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Visionnaire
Is there any reason to believe that the "offhand" Vengeful Gladiator weapon is any worse than the "one-hand" Vengeful Gladiator weapon for using in one's offhand?
(Considering they both have the EXACT same stats except for that label mentioned above)
#5799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Only the fact that its an offhand and you won't ever be able to use it your main hand.
#5800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chopps
Thank you for all the wonderful information in this thread. I have questions regarding Yo! 's fantastic AEP Calculator I haven't been able to find here.

Am I correct in assuming the more "Hours of hack and slash" the more accurate my results will be? I know it sounds silly, but I'm getting drastically different values from running 20,000 hours from 100,000 hours. It would seem to make sense the more hours the better, but I wasn't sure if at some point too long of a test will mess something up. Throughout the thread, I've always seen people use 10-20K hours. I've followed the listed values on the first page for awhile, but I'd like to use my own values for evaluating upgrades.
#5801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Most incorrect results were due to incorrect input.
Post sreenshots of first pages after running.
#5802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chopps
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
#5803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Zhebrica
FT will be a more viable OH weapon imbue in patch 2.3. Its not going to out DPS Windfury.
I don't think I understand what's meant by "more viable" here, if not "higher DPS".
#5804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Scheme
"More viable than it is now."
#5805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Galeyra
Originally Posted by Chopps
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
Same Problem here. With the exact same input, i got results for AEP values not even close together. Thats with 20k+ hours used.
#5806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Chopps
I'm not saying any of the results are wrong, just that with the exact same settings, I get very different values with 20K hours vs. 100K hours. I ran them back to back. I can still post screenshots if you'd like though.
Well, if program is unstable to the point where it produces very different results with same settings running for 1 hour of real CPU time - it is definitely wrong as it simulates 10 years of non-stop gaming and averaged over such long time results are expected to be constant. Yes, please, post or pm screens, otherwise I do not know how to help you as what you observe should not happen. 10,000 should be enough for EP calculation and 100-1000 for dps calculation. Please remember that you do not need to find EP values if directly comparing 2 pieces/sets of armor in the sim - simply compare dps. I am satisfied with sims stability after some EP calculation improvements few changes back.
#5807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Freyalis
Hey Yo, i noticed on the buffs & debuffs section that you have Grace of Air adding +97 AGI, at least on the tooltip.

As far as i'm aware the last rank of GoA (the old AQ version) is +77 AGI which makes +88 talented. We did get a new rank of SoE though which is +97 STR talented.

Not sure if its just a tooltip problem or its coded that way aswell.
#5808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Rob
I typically will see some variance between 10k hour runs (e.g.: hit changes from 1.65 to 1.72, haste changes from 1.89 to 1.75, whatever) and do what Malan does, which is to run a few different 10k sims, throw out any huge outliers, and take the average of the remainder.

I have noticed that armor penetration is very consistent between runs (always 0.29 with my stats), as is expertise (3.08-3.09).
#5809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ston
Armor penetration isn't changing because it will affect all your melee damage exactly the same, whether they be crits, hits, or glances. expertise will change a little because it's changing some of those dodge/parrys to hits, albeit not that many, so a smaller change.
#5810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0drats
A few pages back there was a discussion about helms with/without metagems past t5 content. While I saw an increase from my T4 helm to the Zul'jin helm, the S3 helm with the RED is considerably more dps. I have started stacking armor penetration since then, so that could be part of the difference (I'm at about 500 with the helm.) Anyways, if you have the arena points for it and can't find anything else with a meta, I'd highly recommend the S3 helm.

edit: Once raids start up again I'll post some numbers.
#5811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hotiedraenei
I am debating if I should change out my Legs for either the Season 3 Vengful Legs or the Badge Reward Legs of the Shifting Camouflage Pants. I currently have the Forest Walker Kilt Forestwalker Kilt - Items - World of Warcraft with +8 Bold Living Ruby, 2 Sovereign Nightseye's and the +40 atk +10 Crit LW Kit on them. Any ideas would be great.
#5812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Horus
i dont want that malan has to say it again, so i do:


all you need is an calculator and the first page of this thread.
#5813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Hotiedraenei
Originally Posted by Horus
i dont want that malan has to say it again, so i do:


all you need is an calculator and the first page of this thread.
Sorry I should of been more clear I do realize that all 3 pieces of gear are pretty near each other. I guess what I am looking to know is with more armor penetration of 175 on the Shifting Camouflage Pants, or the 84 on the Vengeful Gladiator Leggings be more useful when I get to bigger raids once my guild pasts Karazhan and starts the 25 mans? I will go ahead and try Yo's Simulator to see some of the different results, I would appreciate if anyone else has any first hand knowledge how it was impacted DPS wise when they droped some of their Attack Power or Strength for the items with the Armor Penetration or Expertise.
#5814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yuma
Originally Posted by Hotiedraenei
Sorry I should of been more clear I do realize that all 3 pieces of gear are pretty near each other. I guess what I am looking to know is with more armor penetration of 175 on the Shifting Camouflage Pants, or the 84 on the Vengeful Gladiator Leggings be more useful when I get to bigger raids once my guild pasts Karazhan and starts the 25 mans? I will go ahead and try Yo's Simulator to see some of the different results, I would appreciate if anyone else has any first hand knowledge how it was impacted DPS wise when they droped some of their Attack Power or Strength for the items with the Armor Penetration or Expertise.
Read the first page of the thread, specifically the part on simulations.
#5815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Sebudai
I noticed there weren't any EP values listed for T6 quality gear in the first post. I ran seven 10,000 hour simulations recently, so if we would like to use my values in any way, here they are:

Crit Rating
1.74
1.75
1.72
1.76
1.77
1.74
1.72

Agility
1.7
1.7
1.67
1.71
1.72
1.69
1.67

Hit Rating
1.68
1.8
1.75
1.7
1.74
1.73
1.7

Haste Rating
1.81
1.8
1.84
1.84
1.83
1.89
1.78

Armor Penetration
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35
0.35

Expertise
3.19
3.17
3.17
3.2
3.17
3.22
3.19
My stats for the simulation were:

Attack Power - 1782
Crit % - 36.5
Hit % - 17.5
Haste % - 4.63
Boss Armor Value - 2930
Armor Penetration - 336

Anyway, dunno if they're useful to anyone but myself, but there they are.
#5816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Smokestomp
Hey, I can't decide for an enchanter, which is more valuable for PVE, +2 weapon damage or +4 stats for ring enchants.

2.6 speed weapons hasted to 2.0 mean each +2 enchant is worth 2 dps.

It would be nice if WWS would have like some option to show weapon speed over time, because DST/heroism/mongoose/LW drums increase the value of this +2 weapon damage in a raid setting.

Obviously +4 stat is superior for PVP, but in PVE, roughly +1 dps and some minor crit.
#5817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Scheme
16 AP and .32% crit is worth about 8 DPS or so. Don't use the paper doll to determine how much DPS a stat gain gives you; all it tells you is how much base non-crit auto-attack DPS you gain.
#5818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brum
Here's some info I gathered on the percentage of windfuries eaten by the main hand when wielding Syphon and Tide. For those of you with dual season three weapons it's kind of a moot point but some of us just can't get the crayon out

Weapon speed and Windfury
Theory states that, given the choice between two comparable weapons, putting the faster weapon in your main hand will result in higher damage than putting it in your off hand because (allegedly) fewer WFs will be used by the OH, which is subject to the 50% OH dmg penalty. This is because the faster weapon is more likely to attack first once the 3 sec WF cooldown is over, and will attack more often while outside the WF CD, giving it more chances to proc WF

Below is data from Servant logs recorded while using Rising Tide MH (2.6) and Syphon OH (2.8). Both weaps had mongoose, I had 5/5 flurry and also parry flurried a number of times during combat. Both weaps were passively hasted to 2.32 (Tide) and 2.5 (Syphon) from gear. With 90% flurry uptime the avg speeds became (2.32/1.3)/.9 = 1.98 for Tide, and (2.5/1.3)/.9 = 2.14 for Syphon

Here's what you'd expect for the % of WFs eaten by the MH when both weapons spend an equal amount of time hasted:
# MH swings over 10 sec/# total swings over 10 sec = (10/1.98) / [(10/2.14) + (10/1.98)]

[top] 2.14/(2.14+1.98)


51.87%


This is what occurred in testing:
MH WFs = 367/678 = 54.13%

Switching hands to put Syphon in MH and Tide in OH you'd expect the % of WFs that are MH to be:
1.98/(2.14+1.98) = 48.13%

The results were:
333/649 = 51.31%

I'm not gonna try to factor in the expected values accounting for parry flurries and mongoose procs. Theoretically, if the haste effects are distributed evenly, the faster your weapons are the higher the % of WFs eaten by the MH will be. This explains a bit of the discrepancy between theory and test, but not 2-3% worth. 2-3% isn't a big deal though.

What's most remarkable is that when the Syphon was MHed, the percent of WFs eaten by the MH was still over 50. So either there's a mechanic I don't know about, the tests were flawed (not enough data points perhaps), or the theory's bunk. If I had to guess I'd say they coded in some mechanic to queue WF procs during the cooldown and give precedent to MH WFs within that queue, so that when you come out of CD there's a higher chance a MH proc hits. That's probably just wishful thinking though. Whatever the case, OHing the slower weapon came out with the higher % of WFs eaten by the MH, which supports the theory

Data:
#5819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Brum
\
Weapon speed and Windfury
Theory states that, given the choice between two comparable weapons, putting the faster weapon in your main hand will result in higher damage than putting it in your off hand because (allegedly) fewer WFs will be used by the OH, which is subject to the 50% OH dmg penalty. This is because the faster weapon is more likely to attack first once the 3 sec WF cooldown is over, and will attack more often while outside the WF CD, giving it more chances to proc WF
This was a theory 100 pages back of this thread. The current one resulted in this line from OP:
2.x/2.y Weapon Speed Combinations
A frequently asked question is how to wield weapons with differing speeds but similar DPS values, such as using a Rising Tide and a Syphon - is it better to put one weapon in the main/off hand over the other? Simulation results indicate that it makes no difference which hand the slower weapon is wielded in. It appears that in general, a 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.
For more details use search.
#5820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Yah I lost the link to the original post that discussed that stuff, the guy who did it ran some pretty extensive tests on the simulator and in the game to verify, but in the end the result was 2.x/2.y = 2.y/2.x.

Updated the T6 content EP weights with the averages of Sebudai's values.

[e] Good news for Pawn users, the latest version now has a GUI configuration so you don't need the strings anymore. Simply type /pawn and then input your EP values directly.

Last edited by Malan : 12/26/07 at 11:08 AM.
#5821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Considering how important they are to stat weights, I'd like to know which buffs Seb receives. I assume BoK / BoM / MotW / Relentless / Haste Pots / SoE / Battle Shout , but is he twisting (and thus including GoA)? Getting LotP?

Buff configuration the best part about EP weights from Yo's sim -- my guild typically runs with only two paladins and I'm often grouped with a feral, which decreases the relative weight of strength and agi/crit by a worthwhile amount.
#5822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
In case anyone missed this, the former feral weapon skill ring from Lower City, [Shapeshifter's Signet] is now ranked (according to my personal EP values) as a Top 10 ring, better than almost every ring available in T5 content.
#5823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
It's on the top twenty list for me, Malan. My EP values, due to my group makeup, undervalue agility (~1.6 EP) and as such T5 rings and even the Violet Eye ring are better. Still, that and the [Vindicator's Band of Triumph] are easy grinds for any shaman looking for guaranteed upgrades to their raid gear.
#5824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Xoya
Alright, I know I should know how to do this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what level of "buffed stats" to input when I check "BoK' on Yo's simulator. Much, much earlier in the thread I remember someone saying, "Buff yourself with kings and mark of the wild and input those numbers"; is this accurate? If not, what am I missing?

Edit: also, is the "use 30% of AP as spell power" button working yet? If not, how should I handle that?
#5825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Xoya
Alright, I know I should know how to do this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what level of "buffed stats" to input when I check "BoK' on Yo's simulator. Much, much earlier in the thread I remember someone saying, "Buff yourself with kings and mark of the wild and input those numbers"; is this accurate? If not, what am I missing?
Because Yo's sim does not have STR and AGI inputs it can't know how much your AP and critical strike chance will increase with BoK. If you wish to account for BoK, check the BoK box and add STR*0.2 to AP and AGI/250 to Crit %.

I believe (hope?) Yo's sim will already account for the extra 10% increase in STR and AGI given by SoE/GoA with the BoK box checked. If it does, it probably also accounts the extra increase for MotW, and for buffs such as Roasted Clefthoof, Elixir of Major Agility, etc. But since you mention MotW specifically, if you want to get the contribution of Kings on MotW you may also need to add 4 AP and 0.01% crit. This should not be enough to significantly affect the output and I don't bother with this step.

Last edited by Rob : 12/26/07 at 5:00 PM.
#5826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Xoya
Alright, I know I should know how to do this, but I'm still unsure of exactly what level of "buffed stats" to input when I check "BoK' on Yo's simulator. Much, much earlier in the thread I remember someone saying, "Buff yourself with kings and mark of the wild and input those numbers"; is this accurate? If not, what am I missing?
Because Yo's sim does not have STR and AGI inputs it can't know how much your AP and critical strike chance will increase with BoK. If you wish to account for BoK, check the BoK box and add STR*0.2 to AP and AGI/250 to Crit %.

I believe (hope?) Yo's sim will already account for the extra 10% increase in STR and AGI given by SoE/GoA with the BoK box checked. If it does, it probably also accounts the extra increase for MotW, and for buffs such as Roasted Clefthoof, Elixir of Major Agility, etc. But since you mention MotW specifically, if you want to get the contribution of Kings on MotW you may also need to add 4 AP and 0.01% crit. This should not be enough to significantly affect the output and I don't bother with this step.

Last edited by Rob : 12/26/07 at 6:00 PM.
#5827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob
Because Yo's sim does not have STR and AGI inputs it can't know how much your AP and critical strike chance will increase with BoK. If you wish to account for BoK, check the BoK box and add STR*0.2 to AP and AGI/250 to Crit %.

I believe (hope?) Yo's sim will already account for the extra 10% increase in STR and AGI given by SoE/GoA with the BoK box checked. If it does, it probably also accounts the extra increase for MotW, and for buffs such as Roasted Clefthoof, Elixir of Major Agility, etc. But since you mention MotW specifically, if you want to get the contribution of Kings on MotW you may also need to add 4 AP and 0.01% crit. This should not be enough to significantly affect the output and I don't bother with this step.
Yes, all buffs to str and agi are affected if king is checked. 30% ap to +spell damage is working
#5828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Considering how important they are to stat weights, I'd like to know which buffs Seb receives. I assume BoK / BoM / MotW / Relentless / Haste Pots / SoE / Battle Shout , but is he twisting (and thus including GoA)? Getting LotP?

Buff configuration the best part about EP weights from Yo's sim -- my guild typically runs with only two paladins and I'm often grouped with a feral, which decreases the relative weight of strength and agi/crit by a worthwhile amount.
Blessing of Kings
Blessing of Might
Mark of the Wild
Leader of the Pack
Flask of Relentless Assault
Haste Potion
Drums of Battle
Strength of Earth
Grace of Air
Battle Shout (plus the bonus from Solarian's Sapphire)
Roasted Clefthoof

-Edit-
Oh, I also noticed that Agility is listed at 1.8 EP in the first post. Isn't that a bit high based on the numbers I listed?

Last edited by Sebudai : 12/26/07 at 9:02 PM.
#5829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Oh, I also noticed that Agility is listed at 1.8 EP in the first post. Isn't that a bit high based on the numbers I listed?
I don't think so. ~25agi per crit and ~22 crit rating per crit comes out to a little over a 10% difference, around 11% difference between the crit and agi EP values. What has me confused is agi being weighted higher without kings when it should at best be on par with crit rating with kings.
#5830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Error in T6 numbers?

This is in the OP:

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
How can Agi without kings be worth more than Crit?
#5831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Oops thats because I copied and pasted that portion and forgot to change that value. Correcting it now.

It should be 1.69 from the average of Sebudai's data, and 1.85 if you add 10% to that for kings.
#5832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0frozndevl
I ran into a lovely situation today. I just attuned for Kara and have been trying to find a group. Was talking to a raid leader today and when he asked my stats, he was getting on my case about not knowing enough about enh because I [b]only[b] have 61 hit rating. I pointed him to this post and he responded with "lol i read it noob". He said that there was a 7% hit cap that I needed to hit from gear. Since I still have yet to raid, I wanted to confirm that 1) there is no 7% cap I need to hit and 2) I was probably dealing with someone that doesn't really grasp the hit tables or how hit works for a shaman.

If I am wrong, I want to remedy that problem. However from what I have read, and through use of Yo!'s simulator, I have been changing gear as it comes without regard for the specific values on the gear as long as the sims show an improvement.
#5833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shinanigans
Originally Posted by frozndevl
I ran into a lovely situation today. I just attuned for Kara and have been trying to find a group. Was talking to a raid leader today and when he asked my stats, he was getting on my case about not knowing enough about enh because I [b]only[b] have 61 hit rating. I pointed him to this post and he responded with "lol i read it noob". He said that there was a 7% hit cap that I needed to hit from gear. Since I still have yet to raid, I wanted to confirm that 1) there is no 7% cap I need to hit and 2) I was probably dealing with someone that doesn't really grasp the hit tables or how hit works for a shaman.

If I am wrong, I want to remedy that problem. However from what I have read, and through use of Yo!'s simulator, I have been changing gear as it comes without regard for the specific values on the gear as long as the sims show an improvement.
Evening bud and Happy Holidays.

There seems to be alot of people in the WoW community that STILL do not know what enhancement spec'd shamans do and the stats that they need to achieve to be TRULY effective.

I can say with ABSOLUTE certainty, that you want to stay within the Hit Rating range of 60-80. While there is NO clear cut numbers on Hit Rating for enhancement Shamans (every place you check for theorycrafting has different numbers), I have found this range to be very suitable for the spec. I myself am a Draenei Shaman (Yes, I know that I have a +1% hit racial) and I was within that range for raiding (up to SSC/TK). Now, with the way gear is structured, hit rating is inevitable. I am now sitting at 124 hit rating and know that I do not honestly need that much.

So far as your raid leader is concerned, tell him to mind his own business and pay attention to his OWN class and theorycrafting. So many raid leaders over-step their bounds by thinking they know everything there is to know about this game, when the fact of the matter is, they have no idea what they are even doing with their own class.

My statement to him next time, if I were you, would be "I have read a lot of material on my class and the theorycrafting that encompasses it and my gear/gem/enchant choices are a direct reflection of that material."

That is it. Do not say anything else to him because you will only be shooting yourself in the foot.

Hope this helps bud and best of luck to you.
#5834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ikuturso
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
I myself am a Draenei Shaman (Yes, I know that I have a +1% hit racial) and I was within that range for raiding (up to SSC/TK).
The racial is +1% spell hit for Shamans.
#5835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Malan
Oops thats because I copied and pasted that portion and forgot to change that value. Correcting it now.

It should be 1.69 from the average of Sebudai's data, and 1.85 if you add 10% to that for kings.
Doesn't Yo's simulator account for BoK in the EP value if I have that checked? I thought that was the whole point of checking it.
#5836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Doesn't Yo's simulator account for BoK in the EP value if I have that checked? I thought that was the whole point of checking it.
Yes. It is 1.69 with Kings, and 1.54 without. (@Malan - It can't be 1.85 with Kings since that's still more than 1.74 which is the value for Crit Rating.)
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
I can say with ABSOLUTE certainty, that you want to stay within the Hit Rating range of 60-80.
Unfortunately, this advice isn't really correct. Not as bad as the quoted idea that there's a "7% cap from gear" (no idea where that one came from), but it's bad form to say that there's any optimal range (beyond perhaps saying that shamans without a Resto subspec need at least 48 hit rating to cap yellows).
While there is NO clear cut numbers on Hit Rating for enhancement Shamans (every place you check for theorycrafting has different numbers),
This is better.

I would just say "Enhancement shamans don't aim for a hit cap or a specific hit rating and have the luxury of picking the overall best available items, regardless of the exact stats on them."

Last edited by Rob : 12/27/07 at 5:06 AM.
#5837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shinanigans
I will admit that I contradicted myself above. I was just WAY too tired and should have not posted.

Anyways, Rob is correct in stating that Enhance shamans really should worry about hit rating last. Worry about the gear in terms of Strength, Agility, Critical Rating, and AP. Obviously, INT/Spirit/Stamina are going to come with gear as will hit rating.
#5838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Doesn't Yo's simulator account for BoK in the EP value if I have that checked? I thought that was the whole point of checking it.
Well that depends, did you inflate your stats to account for Kings before running the sim? If you didn't, his sim assumes that the AP and Crit you entered reflects having Kings on already.
#5839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Chrysocolla_SWC
Will there be any future addition to Yo's, or any of the other simulators for straight spell damage added? As I see it, it's hard to really compare flametongue in any way without being able to sacrifice strength gems for spell damage gems to test any possible benefit there.
#5840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Merple
A general question about rogue leather.

I've been running some calculations on how to go about getting the best EP value for the gear I wear, and most of the time, rogue leather comes out above any mail I can find.

Assuming I can actually _get_ it, is there anything negative about wearing rogue leather over chain? It lacks mp5/int. Will that hurt me much from a DPS standpoint?
#5841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ryley
Originally Posted by Merple
A general question about rogue leather.

I've been running some calculations on how to go about getting the best EP value for the gear I wear, and most of the time, rogue leather comes out above any mail I can find.

Assuming I can actually _get_ it, is there anything negative about wearing rogue leather over chain? It lacks mp5/int. Will that hurt me much from a DPS standpoint?

Int and Mp5 are worthless for Enh Shaman due to Sham Rage, BoW, JoW, and Focused Shocks. You shouldn't be having any mana problems at all unless it's on Kaz'rogal with unlucky resists. So the only thing mail is good for is the armor, and if you're pulling agro in a raid, mail won't save you anymore then leather.
#5842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Originally Posted by Malan
Well that depends, did you inflate your stats to account for Kings before running the sim? If you didn't, his sim assumes that the AP and Crit you entered reflects having Kings on already.
Due to fact we enter crit and AP opposed to agility and strength there is no way to know how much would kings affect them so always enter those stats with kings. My guess is BoK there means if outcome (as in EP values) considers BoK or not as it makes Str and Agi better with it compared to without it.
#5843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Merple
Assuming I can actually _get_ it, is there anything negative about wearing rogue leather over chain? It lacks mp5/int. Will that hurt me much from a DPS standpoint?
I raid with 5000 mana or less and no mp5. I never run out of mana. Between mana pots (you get two a day from dailies, plus one from apexis shards, may as well use 'em), SR and a combined 85 mp5 from ES/MS, you won't need anything else.

There are two reasons mail has so much mana on it. First, we share a lot of gear with hunters, some of whose specs are very mana intensive. Second, Blizzard still thinks we're doing a lot of off-healing, even though no sane raid would put a threat capped melee dps in that role, other than as a last resort to prevent wipes or to top up a group after a nasty AoE.

On the other hand, rogues and feral druids have NO use for mana, and so their gear is just pure stats. Visit MaxDPS.com (not a perfect resource, but good enough for this purpose) and enter your stats. Make sure you click the "include leather" button. Compare the TOP leather items with the TOP mail items and the leather will usually be 10-20% better.

As for "assuming if I get it" -- it shouldn't be hard. There's a lot of low hanging fruit for you that is DKP free -- quest rewards, rep rewards, badge rewards, craftables and some of those easy to grind BG rewards are T5 equivalent. Besides which you should feel no guilt in rolling on any upgrade, even if it's leather. An upgrade to any member is an upgrade to the group, no matter who it goes to.
#5844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Malan
Well that depends, did you inflate your stats to account for Kings before running the sim? If you didn't, his sim assumes that the AP and Crit you entered reflects having Kings on already.
Yeah, I enter my stats with the assumption that I have BoK on.
#5845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok in that case your EP values were fine, I think the problem was that when you listed your buffs earlier I didn't see BoK in the list.

Oh look it was the first thing in your list though. Lets chalk that one up to 'Malan is dumb' and call it a day.
#5846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ryley
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
*snip*

There are two reasons mail has so much mana on it. First, we share a lot of gear with hunters, some of whose specs are very mana intensive. Second, Blizzard still thinks we're doing a lot of off-healing, even though no sane raid would put a threat capped melee dps in that role, other than as a last resort to prevent wipes or to top up a group after a nasty AoE.

*snip*
Just a minor nitpick here, but I find myself helping top off groups on the AoE gauntlet to RoS or in P2 Illidan when I'm unable to hit the Flames (though this is rare, sup tauren hitbox), so I wouldn't use all leather. A bit of int here and there is very nice.
#5847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Question for someone in the know - does Yo's sim expect the Expertise field to be filled in with the amount of expertise rating that I have or the quantity of Expertise that applies to that hand?
#5848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
http://elitistjerks.com/581141-post5735.html

It's not rating.
#5849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ryley
Just a minor nitpick here, but I find myself helping top off groups on the AoE gauntlet to RoS or in P2 Illidan when I'm unable to hit the Flames (though this is rare, sup tauren hitbox), so I wouldn't use all leather.
Well, there are some very nice mail pieces and all the set pieces (some of which offer nice set bonuses) offer some int/mp5...but considering there aren't many of these fights, I'd rather rely on consumables, a wisdom buff and weapon & shield to augment my mana pool. That way I'm not sacrificing dps stats to int/mp5 the rest of the time.
#5850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fearlezz
Originally Posted by Malan
[e] Good news for Pawn users, the latest version now has a GUI configuration so you don't need the strings anymore. Simply type /pawn and then input your EP values directly.

Any chance we get this baby updated with expertise? Or does Pawn still not support Expertise
Sample Pawn string to use (uses Pater and Tornhoof's EP values):

* ( Pawn: v1: "EP (Mid-Raid)": RedSocket=17.6, CritRating=2, Strength=2.2, MetaSocket=24, Agility=2, HitRating=1.4, HasteRating=1.48, BlueSocket=17.6, YellowSocket=17.6, Ap=1, ArmorPenetration=0.25 )
Btw, I've been following this thread ever since I rolled a shammy, thank you all very much for all your hard work
#5851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Brum
Originally Posted by Yo!
This was a theory 100 pages back of this thread. The current one resulted in this line from OP...
Thanks, I missed that paragraph. The point of my post wasn't to argue that one weapon combo is better than another, but to give people some numbers to work with, as I hadn't recalled seeing any. After searching, I think I found the post Malan is referencing here, though the poster doesn't include any sim data

From his post, Ikuturso hit a Blasted Lands mob using both combos Rod of the Sun King/Syphon for 30 minutes with each combo, and didn't use Stormstrike. My tests lasted over two hours with each combo and I used Stormstrike. His tests yielded ~5% difference in the percentage of WFs eaten by the MH between combos, and mine yielded ~3% difference. I can't really draw any conclusions except that there's a discrepancy, but I find any live tests shorter than an hour don't allow enough time to smooth proc streakiness. So maybe my test is more accurate, but it doesn't seem to be any more useful atm. Guess I should find the average WF and SS dmg for each combo so I can refute/support Ikuturso's findings
#5852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Fearlezz
Any chance we get this baby updated with expertise? Or does Pawn still not support Expertise
Pawn does indeed support Expertise rating now, although you don't need the strings anymore at all. Simply type /pawn and window comes up, you can input the stats directly.

@Brum - not sure if thats the post I was referring too although thats similar. The one I remember actually had a chart and it was done using Yo's sim, not in-game.
#5853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Yo!
Originally Posted by Brum
Thanks, I missed that paragraph. The point of my post wasn't to argue that one weapon combo is better than another, but to give people some numbers to work with, as I hadn't recalled seeing any. After searching, I think I found the post Malan is referencing here, though the poster doesn't include any sim data

From his post, Ikuturso hit a Blasted Lands mob using both combos Rod of the Sun King/Syphon for 30 minutes with each combo, and didn't use Stormstrike. My tests lasted over two hours with each combo and I used Stormstrike. His tests yielded ~5% difference in the percentage of WFs eaten by the MH between combos, and mine yielded ~3% difference. I can't really draw any conclusions except that there's a discrepancy, but I find any live tests shorter than an hour don't allow enough time to smooth proc streakiness. So maybe my test is more accurate, but it doesn't seem to be any more useful atm. Guess I should find the average WF and SS dmg for each combo so I can refute/support Ikuturso's findings
Here is the post with charts from simple sim showing how many WFs are "stolen" by another hand depending on different weapon speeds.
http://elitistjerks.com/455208-post1615.html
Charts are almost symmetric in 2.5-2.8 area and it was unclear from them, if 2.6/2.8 weapon combo is better over 2.8/2.6. Partially in attempt to find an answer I wrote complex sim and result it gives is 2.6/2.8=2.8/2.6.
Here is another, more clear combined chart for Malan's section of wiki:
http://elitistjerks.com/471640-post2280.html
Your data is of course valuable as it is from game.
#5854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nizghalad
I am really sorry if this has been asked, or if this isn't the place to ask, but I am levelling a shaman, and would like to know what stat to prioritize: str, agi, AP? And how to check this by myself?
Tried tinkering with Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo which hung up on me (guess it wasn't designed for values of a lvl22 shaman :p )
If someone has more general info/tips about pexing low level shammies, feel free to post or MP!
#5855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Straton
Originally Posted by Nizghalad
I am really sorry if this has been asked, or if this isn't the place to ask, but I am levelling a shaman, and would like to know what stat to prioritize: str, agi, AP? And how to check this by myself?
Tried tinkering with Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo which hung up on me (guess it wasn't designed for values of a lvl22 shaman :p )
If someone has more general info/tips about pexing low level shammies, feel free to post or MP!
I guess it's not that important at low levels, but generally Str > Agi > AP. Up to level 30, where you get Windfury, it might even be a good idea to collect a bit of spell damage to augment Flametongue. But below 60 (maybe even below 70) your best bet is to check the AH and do instances regularly to keep your gear up to date. In this thread (if you haven't read it already) you can find lots of great hints on how to improve your gear early on. And, by the way, how do you know the simulator has hung up? Depending on your PC and the number of hours you wanted it to simulate, it can take quite a while to finish. Try a really low hour setting (1 hr, maybe) and see if it runs through. Then work your way up.

On an unrelated note, I have a question myself. Various sources (most notably the "manual" for DisqoDice's WF cooldown timer) suggest that it is a good idea to wait with Stormstrike until the WF cooldown is ready again. Why is that? Maybe it would be a good idea to include the answer in the "Windfury Mechanics" section of the OP.
#5856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Straton
On an unrelated note, I have a question myself. Various sources (most notably the "manual" for DisqoDice's WF cooldown timer) suggest that it is a good idea to wait with Stormstrike until the WF cooldown is ready again. Why is that? Maybe it would be a good idea to include the answer in the "Windfury Mechanics" section of the OP.
Because Stormstrike can proc windfury, actually it's 2 hits so it has 2 chances of proccing windfury, if windfury isn't on "cooldown".
#5857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Straton
On an unrelated note, I have a question myself. Various sources (most notably the "manual" for DisqoDice's WF cooldown timer) suggest that it is a good idea to wait with Stormstrike until the WF cooldown is ready again. Why is that? Maybe it would be a good idea to include the answer in the "Windfury Mechanics" section of the OP.
Generally speaking it's only worth waiting if the WF CD is <1 sec left, if you start wasting time waiting for WF CD it's not going to improve your dps.
#5858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I really still need a link to that dev chat where a question was asked about WF vs FT scaling and the devs basically said "yah we know its better and no we don't plan to do anything about it." I've done some googling and checked the wow stratics dev chats and can't locate it, anyone remember which chat that was?
#5859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Nizghalad
I am really sorry if this has been asked, or if this isn't the place to ask, but I am levelling a shaman, and would like to know what stat to prioritize: str, agi, AP? And how to check this by myself?
Tried tinkering with Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo which hung up on me (guess it wasn't designed for values of a lvl22 shaman :p )
If someone has more general info/tips about pexing low level shammies, feel free to post or MP!
Others may disagree, but +hit is actually a very decent stat while leveling for any dual wielding class. Otherwise, I'd just try to keep a decent balance of crit and AP.
#5860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bufford
Originally Posted by panny
Others may disagree, but +hit is actually a very decent stat while leveling for any dual wielding class. Otherwise, I'd just try to keep a decent balance of crit and AP.
I don't think it is so much that as much as most people don't really bother min/maxing while they are leveling. Particularly with the speed of leveling now any gear you get at level 25 just makes less an less of a difference in your quest to make 70.

Now if we are talking BG twinking that is a different deal all together, but I don't think he was.
#5861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
If you're leveling a new shaman you need to avoid Dual Wielding for as long as possible, there's just not enough Hit Rating available until the mid to late 50s and you'll be very hard pressed to find slow enough weapons. Stick with slow 2H weapons until you're almost to Outland.
#5862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan
If you're leveling a new shaman you need to avoid Dual Wielding for as long as possible, there's just not enough Hit Rating available until the mid to late 50s and you'll be very hard pressed to find slow enough weapons. Stick with slow 2H weapons until you're almost to Outland.
Thought this called for simulation: 200 AP, 10% crit, 0% hit, no buffs, no shocks, talents commensurate with level 42 (Flurry, DW & SS), attacking a mob with 2000 armor.

2x 28.1dps 2.7s weapons: 170 dps
1x 35.7dps 3.4s weapon: 128 dps
2x 28.1dps 1.6s weapons: 145 dps

Of course, this is simulating a level 70 attacking a level 73 mob, but I think it's akin to a level 42 mob attacking a level 45 elite.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 12/28/07 at 5:24 PM.
#5863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
Personally, I'd say that you're absolutely fine to go DW once you hit level 44 and can be specced into Stormstrike and 3/3 Dual Wield Specialization. That's certainly enough hit rating to make it worthwhile.

The only downside is that you end up needing to find two nice one-hands, but if you can't find two slow weapons I don't think there's a big problem using a MH with WF and an OH with FT.
#5864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Pyre
Originally Posted by Malan
If you're leveling a new shaman you need to avoid Dual Wielding for as long as possible, there's just not enough Hit Rating available until the mid to late 50s and you'll be very hard pressed to find slow enough weapons. Stick with slow 2H weapons until you're almost to Outland.
I guess my AH must be more robust than most, since I've already got green offhand maces "of the Tiger" at level 42 (2.7 speed) and 48 (2.8 speed) stashed away for when my wee one gets to those levels. My playing around with the simulator gave similar results to Toots (although I used slightly higher numbers for AP and crit). I understand that the simulator may not be perfect for lower levels, but as I blast through levels I don't think it's going to be often that I'm fighting mobs more than +1, especially since the quest xp boosts mean I won't be grinding much, if at all. At those relative mob levels, is +hit really all that necessary?
#5865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Wundorn
Equal-speed weapons

Originally Posted by Yo!
Here is the post with charts from simple sim showing how many WFs are "stolen" by another hand depending on different weapon speeds.
http://elitistjerks.com/455208-post1615.html
Charts are almost symmetric in 2.5-2.8 area and it was unclear from them, if 2.6/2.8 weapon combo is better over 2.8/2.6. Partially in attempt to find an answer I wrote complex sim and result it gives is 2.6/2.8=2.8/2.6.
Here is another, more clear combined chart for Malan's section of wiki:
http://elitistjerks.com/471640-post2280.html
Your data is of course valuable as it is from game.
After this post there was a bit of discussion about theridge in the graph for equal-speed weapons. They appear inferior, but then someone asked if the sim took into account the benefit match-speed weapons had from both being haste for the final (third) hit in flurry. Yo said that the sim did not account for that. I did not see any further discussion about this on the following few pages.

Did further work show that the third-flurry-hit benefit outweighs the loss shown in the sim, for DWing identical-speed weapons?
#5866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Daagar
If you'd like to plug in some "accurate" numbers, I have a 45 shaman. I have 392 AP, 12.76% crit, 127 str, 86 agi. My weapons are 2.7/2.2 (I know I need a slower off-hand). Some +hit would certainly be nice... I do seem to have quite a miss rate.

For equipment choices, I've been using the "pre-raid" pawn string provided in the original post. I'm not sure how accurate it is for leveling up since it is designed for lvl 70 but it seems to have worked well thus far. My gear is all quest rewards or AH greens.

As Pyre mentions, it is usually not necessary to fight +1 or higher mobs a whole lot, since it is pretty effective to do lower quests and reap the extra quest xp via quicker killing.
#5867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
I have small problem (propably it's not a problem but low AP compared to rest of the stats I have). Been running Yo's sim for hours to get decent average values for stats. I should have kings changes added correctly and typical buffs I have tagged. Also simulator dps values are quite correct what I can do in "perfect" situation.

I really get low value for crit and agi compared to example stats on first post.

ArmorPenetration = 0.24,
CritRating = 1.5,
Strength= 2.2
Agility = 1.45
HitRating = 1.3
HasteRating = 1.45,

Armor pen, haste and hit rating looks pretty much ok but crit/agi values are quite low. It just might be that I have too low AP which would favour AP heavily for a while... Those values doesn't seem to affect that much for possible upgrades I could have in near future.
#5868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kyrryth
This is my shaman's armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

(It currently appears to be down for some reason, but I have 570 AP, 11.74% crit, and 6% hit, wielding a 2.7 speed 32.3 DPS MH and a 2.7 speed 28.1 DPS OH.)

Strength is actually significantly more important than agility/crit rating at earlier levels, due to crits scaling based on AP. It's easy to start DWing at 44 when you max out DW Specialization (even before) simply because having your AP scale better generally outweighs the misses. Not to mention it gives you a better chance of proccing WF, which is so much of your DPS.

Here's a sample of my EP values:

AP - 1
Crit rating - 0.99
Hit rating - 1.11
Haste rating - 0.54
Armor penetration - 0.11
Strength - 2
Agility - 0.88
Expertise rating - 1.18

That was only after one test at 10,000 hours, so it may not be incredibly accurate, but it's interesting, I think.

2.7 (32.1 DPS)/2.7 DW (28.1) (11.74% crit, 570 AP, 6% hit): 238 DPS
3.7 (43.4 DPS) (11.74% crit, 570 AP, 0% hit): 171 DPS
#5869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Blazingwater
I have a question here...And before you say anything, I've already read the entire thread, multiple times.

Just today I picked up Gladiator's Pummeler (2.6 speed, 91.2dps), and I need to know if I should replace my MH or OH with it. My current MH is Reflex Blades (2.7 speed, 71.7dps) and my OH is Stormreaver Warblades (1.6 speed, 71.6dps). I'm currently using WF on my Mh and FT on my OH. Should I use Gladiator's Pummeler as my OH and do WF/WF or use Gladiator's Pummeler as my MH and do WF/FT? Does the benefit of an epic on the MH with an OH with FT outweigh the effect of WF/WF with the epic in the OH?

I'm looking for the 2 weapons that will give me the most DPS, and (if you can figure it out) the best weapon combo for PvP.
#5870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
Originally Posted by Kyrryth
This is my shaman's armory:
Here's a sample of my EP values:
Crit rating - 0.99
Strength - 2
Agility - 0.88
That was only after one test at 10,000 hours, so it may not be incredibly accurate, but it's interesting, I think.
Well that also answers to my question, seems that my values from Yo's sim are right. Just start need to work AP heavily next.
#5871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
I've already read the entire thread, multiple times.

Just today I picked up Gladiator's Pummeler (2.6 speed, 91.2dps), and I need to know if I should replace my MH or OH with it. My current MH is Reflex Blades (2.7 speed, 71.7dps) and my OH is Stormreaver Warblades (1.6 speed, 71.6dps).
Come on, are you serious? You're going to claim to have read this entire thread multiple times, and yet you don't know which of a 2.7 or a 1.6 speed weapon you should replace with a 2.6 91 DPS weapon? Really?
#5872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Blazingwater
I remember reading in the post a section that the MH gets more EP from the dps of a weapon than the OH. So, that would mean putting the epic in the MH more value than to put it in the OH slot. Then, I thought, WF/WF always does better than WF/FT. Maybe I got confused with the conditions that the MH gets more EP...?


Anyone care to clean this up for me? I clearly seem to be confused with something.
#5873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Scheme
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
I remember reading in the post a section that the MH gets more EP from the dps of a weapon than the OH. So, that would mean putting the epic in the MH more value than to put it in the OH slot. Then, I thought, WF/WF always does better than WF/FT. Maybe I got confused with the conditions that the MH gets more EP...?


Anyone care to clean this up for me? I clearly seem to be confused with something.
Put the Pummeler in your MH and get a green 2.6 speed offhand. Your fist offhand is worthless, and offhanding the Pummeler in favor of keeping the fist MH is a gigantic waste.
#5874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Blazingwater
I guess what I'm really trying to ask here is....

WF/WF is obviously going to out dps WF/FT. Yet FT became more viable in 2.3. The question is, how viable? How close does WF/FT come to the dps WF/WF puts out? Does anyone have the math on that?
#5875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
I remember reading in the post a section that the MH gets more EP from the dps of a weapon than the OH. So, that would mean putting the epic in the MH more value than to put it in the OH slot. Then, I thought, WF/WF always does better than WF/FT. Maybe I got confused with the conditions that the MH gets more EP...?


Anyone care to clean this up for me? I clearly seem to be confused with something.
Sim it out with Yo's. You're probably going to find that the best option is to do what Scheme says, MH the Gladiator's and OH a 2.6 speed ~60 DPS green. There's really not math to determine WF/WF vs WF/FT for multiple combinations of weapons, since each weapon enchant scales with gear differently.

Last edited by Rob : 12/29/07 at 7:37 PM.
#5876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tumbo
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
#5877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
Originally Posted by Tumbo
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
Are you sure you read the first post completely? Try reading it again It has WF mechanics explained better then most of us could anyway.
#5878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draco Argentum
I'm trying to find the maths proving WF > GoA. Didn't the first post have the links at one point. It looks like Malan has cleaned it up and improved the formatting. At the same time the maths has gone. I'm trying to prove that we need WF in the melee group but without the maths all I have is argumentum ad verecundiam.
#5879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Vareyn
Originally Posted by Kyrryth
This is my shaman's armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
Here's a sample of my EP values:

AP - 1
Crit rating - 0.99
Hit rating - 1.11
Haste rating - 0.54
Armor penetration - 0.11
Strength - 2
Agility - 0.88
Expertise rating - 1.18

That was only after one test at 10,000 hours, so it may not be incredibly accurate, but it's interesting, I think.

2.7 (32.1 DPS)/2.7 DW (28.1) (11.74% crit, 570 AP, 6% hit): 238 DPS
3.7 (43.4 DPS) (11.74% crit, 570 AP, 0% hit): 171 DPS
Yo's sim is designed for level 70 in mind, and is hence converting the rating as if it was a level 70. You will have to do CritAEPx22.08 divided by however much rating gets you a percent critical strike at your level. Same can be applied to the hit and haste rating. I am also not sure how much agility differs in providing critical strike for lower levels.
#5880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Strygwyr
Just a random question here, does it make sense theoreticly that at a certain point of gear, crit rating will be worth more then strength?
#5881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
Just a random question here, does it make sense theoreticly that at a certain point of gear, crit rating will be worth more then strength?
Maybe if you had managed to gear yourself entirely in +Strength gear with absolutely no crit of any sort. Not sure if it would actually be worth *more* but it might approach the value. Strength will never be worth less than 2 since its 2 AP and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any sort of actual in-game gear that could make any stat worth more than that.
#5882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Karok(EU)
Originally Posted by Tumbo
If two weapons have the same speed, would one have to worry about the OH locking the MH from proccing WF?
I'm using two 2.7 speed maces, and I do get offhand procs, just fewer when compared to having a faster offhand.
#5883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Smokestomp
Not sure if this was covered somewhere in the threat, but its not in the OP afaik.

For enhance shamans that are enchanters aswell:

+2 weapon damage, or +4 stats for rings.

From what I understand, the +2 increases in value as attack speed increases through flurry/drums/heroism/DST. Is this the case with +4 stats aswell? Stats feels more well rounded and "hybrid" like, but for raw dps in PVE, I'm just not entirely decided.
#5884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Pitbuller
+2 damage to both weapons.(no oh penalty)
So AEP value for 2.6 speed weapons
2 *(2 / 2.6) = 1.538wDps
Using 8.48 ep per wDps +2dam = 13.05ep
But mental quickness inflate wDps ep by 0.85multiplier so its only 11.09ep.

Stats is superior.
16.8ep + 4* stamina, int & spi.


All stats scales when "attack speed increases through flurry/drums/heroism/DST." not just +2dmg.
#5885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0seminarca
Originally Posted by Malan
If you're leveling a new shaman you need to avoid Dual Wielding for as long as possible, there's just not enough Hit Rating available until the mid to late 50s and you'll be very hard pressed to find slow enough weapons. Stick with slow 2H weapons until you're almost to Outland.
I don't agree with that at all. I leveled an Enhancement Shaman a few months ago, and switched to dw just as soon as I could. I eyeball recap often while leveling, and noticed a significant jump in dps after switching, as well as higher flurry uptime.

Weapon availability is a potential issue, I used wowhead filters (this one is from lvl 40 to 50) and then scanned the AH for this stuff off and on. When I hit 42 I had two [Skullcrusher Mace] sitting in my mailbox, one of them had a bullshit enchant (of the Whale or something) but the weapon speed and dps was more important. [Corpse Harvester] at 50. Picked up a [Ripsaw] at some point in time, after the 2.3 revamp there's the excellent [Spirit of the Faerie Dragon] from a fairly trivial Feralas quest chain if you don't want to instance.
#5886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by seminarca
I don't agree with that at all. I leveled an Enhancement Shaman a few months ago, and switched to dw just as soon as I could. I eyeball recap often while leveling, and noticed a significant jump in dps after switching, as well as higher flurry uptime.
this is exactly the same thing I experienced, I switched to the highest dps weapons i could find and went DW or nothing and things were so much better past that point.

For weapons, the AH always served me well in that regard.
#5887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Strygwyr
Originally Posted by Malan
Maybe if you had managed to gear yourself entirely in +Strength gear with absolutely no crit of any sort. Not sure if it would actually be worth *more* but it might approach the value. Strength will never be worth less than 2 since its 2 AP and I think you'd be hard pressed to find any sort of actual in-game gear that could make any stat worth more than that.

Well, i did socket nearly all my gear with +8 str gems, currently 1650 AP and 29% crit, and Yo's sim is showing that crit rating is worth more for me then Str, i tested with 1000 hours and 10000 hours.
#5888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Diabolos
Weights -- Not directly addressed in the original post

I have noticed a few things about the shaman that I have yet to actually Read in any forums...

I've noticed that for every 100 AP, I recieve ~33.333 Bonus Spell DMG, regardless of if the AP bonus is from STR or raw AP. In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).

Also -- Considering the vast improvements in 2.3 to Mana Efficiency, Shocks are a notably larger contributor to DPS than before, assuming the Focused State & Water Shield will have a ~90% Uptime.
#5889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
Well, i did socket nearly all my gear with +8 str gems, currently 1650 AP and 29% crit, and Yo's sim is showing that crit rating is worth more for me then Str, i tested with 1000 hours and 10000 hours.
Well that is completely incorrect in that case. I would suggest that you double check what values you put in and screenshot it for Yo if it does it again.

Originally Posted by Diabolos
I have noticed a few things about the shaman that I have yet to actually Read in any forums...

I've noticed that for every 100 AP, I recieve ~33.333 Bonus Spell DMG, regardless of if the AP bonus is from STR or raw AP. In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).

Also -- Considering the vast improvements in 2.3 to Mana Efficiency, Shocks are a notably larger contributor to DPS than before, assuming the Focused State & Water Shield will have a ~90% Uptime.
Point 1 - well duh. Strength provides 2 AP. You have the mental quickness talent that gives 30% of your AP to spell damage. So no kidding, you've never seen that mentioned because its obvious.
Point 2 - No. Absolutely no. If you're going to make a ludicrous statement like that you'd *damn well* better have some combat logs or screenshots of the char screen to back it up, and it would still be a bug. Melee Critical Strike Rating is not intended to provide spell crit.
Point 3 - Its been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread you aren't telling us anything we aren't aware of.

Last edited by Malan : 12/30/07 at 1:59 PM.
#5890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Ilmatar
What is the Flurry uptime % from those sim runs, Strygwyr?

This is a total guess, and honestly I'm on vacation so I don't want to look up anything, but my guess is that you are going to see value on crit drop to a more normal value as soon as you get a bit over 30% crit. I think that the reason why crit may be showing up higher than strength is because the haste gained from attaining near 100% flurry uptime is going to increase your white dps significantly, due to the high AP you are packing. The other part of this valuing is Unleashed Rage uptime, as well, I think.

Just my shot in the dark. If I'm wrong, someone else can correct me

Edit:
In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).
I haven't noticed this but I also haven't looked. Has anyone else seen this? (Vacation also means WoW vacation, or I'd test it myself.)

Last edited by Ilmatar : 12/30/07 at 1:57 PM. Reason: Added question about m.c.r.->s.c.r.
#5891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Strygwyr
It shows my FLurry uptime to be 78%, probably because my MH speed and my OH speed dont match, i hve a 2.7 MH and 2.6 OH. Black planar Edge and Glads Cleaver, i also have a decapitator i could wield if it would increase my DPS.
#5892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
It shows my FLurry uptime to be 78%, probably because my MH speed and my OH speed dont match, i hve a 2.7 MH and 2.6 OH. Black planar Edge and Glads Cleaver, i also have a decapitator i could wield if it would increase my DPS.
Okay that's a reasonable flurry uptime, I think it's probably a result of the UR uptime, then; or bad input/bug.
#5893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0testthewest
Crit versus AP (Str)

Someone a few posts above mine said crit rating was affecting his dps more than strength. Some other person then replied that this isn't possible.

I would like to add, that theoretical it is possible, since AP (or Str) adds dmg linear, while Crit multiplies the dps you have.

Asuming you have a 100dps weapon, 4200 AP and 10% crit (I know: very strange values, but I wanna make a pont here; furthermore I ignore hit here for a sec).

then you have 400dps and 10% crit, which leads to 345dps.

Player A adds 22,1str, Player B adds 22,1 critrating.

Player A now has 4244,2 AP and still 10% crit:

=> 403,15718 * 1,10 = 442,47285dps

Player B still sits at 4200AP, but has 11% crit now.

=>400*1,11 = 444dps

As you see, adding crit improved the dps more than adding more AP.

The values for AP might seem high, but thats just to prove the point, and I'm too lazy to calculate flurry in, which will help crit even more, so that the breaking point, where crit gets better than AP is lower.
#5894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by testthewest
Someone a few posts above mine said crit rating was affecting his dps more than strength. Some other person then replied that this isn't possible.
No, the person said that the simulator was reporting an EP value of Crit as being higher than Strength (2 or 2.2 with Kings).
#5895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0testthewest
EP value misunderstandings?

Originally Posted by Malan
No, the person said that the simulator was reporting an EP value of Crit as being higher than Strength (2 or 2.2 with Kings).

Good Sir, I might have a huge misunderstanding here. I thought, the EP value was to compare the impact of stats on dps, in comparison to AP.

If this is true, its there can be no static value for crit rating (I know, old news).

The original poster wanted to know if under certain circumstance it is thinkable, that critrating has a higher impact on his dps, an therefore a higher EP value.
I gave an example.
#5896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Ok yah, thought you were referring to the guy a page back that had funny sim results. But yah I said the same thing earlier - for some obscene values of AP vs Crit you could have that happen, but its not like you could ever construct such a gear set from whats available anyways.
#5897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Daagar
Originally Posted by Vareyn
Yo's sim is designed for level 70 in mind, and is hence converting the rating as if it was a level 70. You will have to do CritAEPx22.08 divided by however much rating gets you a percent critical strike at your level. Same can be applied to the hit and haste rating. I am also not sure how much agility differs in providing critical strike for lower levels.
Thanks for pointing this out. For anyone else that wants to use Yo's sim prior to level 70, you need to correct crit strike/haste/hit/expertise as Vareyn describes above. The formula's for determining this are all available at: Combat rating system - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft under the "Combat Ratings formula" heading. Yes, this is probably obvious to most folks, but I had to go find it so hoping it helps someone else.

One value I didn't know how to correct for was Boss Armor. Obviously, 4400 is going to be too high... is there a formula or even a way to ballpark the values?
#5898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
First post, and a question...

Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.

Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting?

The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha
#5899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0DaveA50
Originally Posted by Diabolos
In addition, I have noticed that Critical Strike Rating (NOT Agility) yields a slight addition to Spell Critical Strike (Something like a 20% Yield. For every 1% Melee crit achieved from Crit Rating grants ~.2% Spell Crit).
Could it be that when you switched an item that had crit rating on it, that you gained int as well? Because int does add to spell crit rating...
#5900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by Ankha
Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.

Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting?

The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha
Very little in Raid PVE is groundable, making it effectively worthless. 2% dodge is 2% of attacks that won't kill you.

-ankha
#5901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
well

Originally Posted by Malan
Well that is completely incorrect in that case. I would suggest that you double check what values you put in and screenshot it for Yo if it does it again.



Point 1 - well duh. Strength provides 2 AP. You have the mental quickness talent that gives 30% of your AP to spell damage. So no kidding, you've never seen that mentioned because its obvious.
Point 2 - No. Absolutely no. If you're going to make a ludicrous statement like that you'd *damn well* better have some combat logs or screenshots of the char screen to back it up, and it would still be a bug. Melee Critical Strike Rating is not intended to provide spell crit.
Point 3 - Its been rehashed ad nauseam in this thread you aren't telling us anything we aren't aware of.
This person might simply be seeing effects form the +int on the items he is equipping.
#5902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kevagron
I'm struggling a bit with the "slow is better" concept although I understand the basic idea.

My quandary is that I recently killed Kovork on an alt and his Rattle dropped (38-72 dam, 3.00 speed, OH, 18.3 dps +2 str +5agi).

I'm level 55 and have Mass of McGowan banked for lvl 57 for MH but does the 0.2 slower speed of Kovork's make it better than Smashing Star of the Monkey (62-115, 2.8 speed, OH, 31.6 dps, 6 agi & stam)

I've just tried working through the maths for the OH and it says my damage (using max damage number) would be 258 with Kovork and 212 with Smashing Star. WF damage would be 340 with Kovork and 392 with Smashing Star.

Do these seem reasonable? Roughly 320 AP atm unbuffed/self buffed (yes, my gear sucks - bloody hunter mail)

Are my maths right? Is Kovork's a better OH than a lvl 48 mace that's only 0.2 seconds slower?

Thanks for any responses, I did try :-)
#5903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0beetlejuice
Originally Posted by Ankha
Ok its my first day on this site, and I had a talent question.

Why do so many talent builds choose 2 pts in Anticipation over 2 pts in Guardian Totems. Is there something I'm not getting?

The 1 sec reduced cooldown on the grounding totem seems like a very useful thing. -Ankha
To be honest, i prefer 2 points in Guardian totems as it's really usefull to have faster grounding cooldown in duels and battleground fun.

2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens.
#5904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by kevagron
My quandary is that I recently killed Kovork on an alt and his Rattle dropped (38-72 dam, 3.00 speed, OH, 18.3 dps +2 str +5agi).

I'm level 55 and have Mass of McGowan banked for lvl 57 for MH but does the 0.2 slower speed of Kovork's make it better than Smashing Star of the Monkey (62-115, 2.8 speed, OH, 31.6 dps, 6 agi & stam)
Look at the DPS. The Star is almost a 2x upgrade in damage. When in doubt, take the higher DPS if the speeds are roughly the same.
#5905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Martyrbg
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you Keep up the good work!
#5906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
To be honest, i prefer 2 points in Guardian totems as it's really usefull to have faster grounding cooldown in duels and battleground fun.

2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens.
Err, no, there are definitely times going from 20 to 22% will save you. Just because you don't actively see those 2 talent points doing anything doesn't mean they're not.

Don't forget dodging a Hamstring, Mortal Strike, or possible mace stun is pretty cool too, you just don't notice that 2% of the time when it was a result of your talent points.
#5907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
• Aeolian
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
To be honest, i prefer 2 points in Guardian totems as it's really usefull to have faster grounding cooldown in duels and battleground fun.

2% extra dodge won't save you, i mean, all experienced people know that you dodge certain times in a pve raid, you are not a target of a mob all the time. In these certain times, 20 or 22% dodge will have the same effect. To actualy see a difference in the dodges, means that you will get targeted and hit from mobs alot, which for our class and spec never happens.
I love those two points in Anticipation. I've found them to be much more helpful then Guardian Totems. But it all comes down to personal choice. It has even saved me in PvE content, such as Off-tanks dieing for some stupid reason on Supremus or even earlier on in Gruul's. I've literally dodged 4 Hateful Strikes on Gruul's which allowed us to actually kill him. My personal experience makes me an "Anticipation" person, you may have different experiences. On top of this, I rarely duel and I PvP / Arena as Elemental.

Originally Posted by Martyrbg
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you Keep up the good work!
I believe this has been brought up several times already. While it might be a good idea, it should be very apparent that those are the gems you need. The guide was designed to give you the foundation for your character, allowing you to maximize it yourself as you gain in progression. Malan gave you the best gem choices, when the epic Mount Hyjal and Black Temple gems become available to you, it should be obvious which ones you should take. This "foundation" principle is also why the post doesn't go into gear specifics, telling you exactly which gear pieces you should pick up. It gives you the tools to find out for yourself, instead of holding your hand through it.

Last edited by Aeolian : 12/31/07 at 3:05 PM.
#5908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Martyrbg
Hello, I greatly enjoyed reading this guide, it includes some awesome and well backed-up analysis that I used to maximize my enhancement shaman's DPS output. Just a tip: you may like to add epic BT/Hyjal gems to the gem itemization section, e.g. [Bold Crimson Spinel] instead of [Bold Living Ruby], [Inscribed Pyrestone] instead of [Inscribed Noble Topaz], [Sovereign Shadowsong Amethyst] instead of [Sovereign Nightseye]. These are currently the best non-BoP options around for anyone that has reached T6 level. I noticed this was suggested earlier in the thread and I would like to support it. If the guide is to include T6-level weapons, it would be logical to include T6-level gems as well, as the best top-end choice. I hope this post have been of use to you Keep up the good work!
The gems are left out because hopefully someone in T6 content(although sometimes I wonder) can piece together prefixes and realize that Bold = pure strength, Inscribed = str/crit, Sovereign = str/stam and apply that knowledge to the oh so difficult blue -> epic gem conversions of Ruby to Spinel, Topaz to Pyrestone, and Nightseye to Amethyst.
#5909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bladefire
Leather vs Mail Armor

I have recently started low level raids (Kara) at the beginning of November and am currently doing Gruul / some ZA now too. I have been following the principles set forth thread to properly gear my Shaman and I am producing amazing DPS as well as dying more often than I would like. I have been designing my character based on EP values which is pointing me in the direction of leather armor. Leather "Rogue" gear as you know has no int, less armor but generally has higher stam as well as overall EP. I thought the higher stam would offset the loss in armor from mail. I am not sure if I should stay with leather (minus the T4 shaman set which I will be wearing) or go with a mix or full mail?

Strength: 206
Agility: 364
Stamina: 428
Intellect: 165
Spirit: 128
Armor: 4146
Health: 7259

Damage: 478 - 639
Speed: 2.55
Power: 1444
Hit Rating: 130
Crit Chance: 27.67%
Expertise: 3

The World of Warcraft Armory

I know that I need to replace the helm (including meta gem but I didn't want to do this till I have a new helm), chest, waist, trinkets, etc. I just wanted to make sure before I spend a lot a badges in the direction that I am going that it's not wrong.

Second, since I started switching to some leather pieces I have changed my pawn value of stam to .25 so I can have a health increase. Why is there no Pawn value for stam or armor (depends on the answer to the above)? It would seem to me as armor decreases that the value of stam would increase.

I am not asking for gear choices as I can choose those from this amazingly informative thread but just to understand why that some top shaman wear just mail, some a mix and some leather. I want to be productive in my progression without having to backtrack and rebuild.

Thank you and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
#5910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0berg
Originally Posted by Bladefire
I want to be productive in my progression without having to backtrack and rebuild.

Thank you and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
You should not worry about possibly backtracking in your gear selections. I have seen this a few times in posts here but it is an imagined problem. It is true that stats change in value as your gear improves but the changes are minor.

I know that looking at the difference between Karazhan values and T6 values seems dramatic, but keep in mind that there are 3 dozen or so gear upgrades made in that span. If you have access to a piece of loot that is a clear upgrade now then go for it, you will not regret it.
#5911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bladefire
Leather vs Mail Armor

I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail. Is there a value or calcuation that can be applied to the armor value and stam to help evaluate pieces for us when we have this choice? What is the crossover point between armor and stam?

Example: It looks to me based on my armor that 1 point of armor equals .0068% reduction in damage.
#5912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Pyre
The question you're asking doesn't apply to stat evaluation very well, since the evalution is based on damage out, not damage in. The question I have is really why are you dying? If it's not an agro issue, and you're just dying on fights like Aran, Illhoof, Nightbane, etc., then adding armor won't help much, if at all. If it is an agro issue, then obviously correcting that will solve the problem itself.

You might want to consider continuing to use the spreadsheet for your regular gear kit, then selectively swapping into higher stamina pieces for the fights you're having difficulty with.
#5913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Bladefire
I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail.
I wear what I win when it drops. I can only loot so many items before I'm at the bottom of the priority list. There's a few slots where the mail and leather items are close enough in value that i told the rogues and our feral druid that I'd stick to mail on those items to lower the competition.
#5914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Bladefire
I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail. Is there a value or calcuation that can be applied to the armor value and stam to help evaluate pieces for us when we have this choice? What is the crossover point between armor and stam?

Example: It looks to me based on my armor that 1 point of armor equals .0068% reduction in damage.
Armor doesn't matter. If you take a hit from a boss you can't manage your aggro, your tank sucks, or the raid is wiping. If you pull aggro on trash you have the new SR, the ability to equip a shield, and two snares to use to escape.

Stamina is only as useful as any given encounter allows it to be. If an encounter has an ability that deals heavy damage you want more HP than that damage. If an encounter has two abilities that do moderate damage you want to have enough HP to survive both abilities because chances are they can be used in succession.

Stamina and armor really shouldn't play a role in your gear selections, although I am guilty of it myself, because you can always swap in items to help you meet the HP thresholds of any given fight.
#5915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Bladefire
Leather vs Mail Armor

Thanks for the responses.

No, I am not pulling aggo. If I do, yes, I deserve to die, final answer. We have a rule, you pull it you tank it.... doesn't work very well for Shaman, lol. You wipe the party by pulling aggro... you pay the bill.

Just died early on Gruul with other Rogues from the cave ins and what not.. but you all have answered my questions and I can continue on my course to Shaman glory.

Thank you.

P.S. I just wanted to thank everyone for your contributions to this thread. The theorycrafting article, mods (Pawn, Disco Dice), Yo's Sim..... it really helps alot of people. (Ok, I will disappear again. I am sure I will have a question in a few months).

Last edited by Bladefire : 01/01/08 at 2:15 PM.
#5916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0death_Phobos
t6 Values

Hi
I'm following this thread quite long, but now i have to ask something.

1)High Raid (T6) EP Values

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2.2 EP

Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18

How is it possible that without Kings Strenght has the Value 2.2 and Ap 1 ?
1.1 -> 2.2
OR
1.0 ->2.0


2) Is Kings not adding effectively 11% strength cause of UR ?
#5917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Aeolian
Shaman is a 6 letter word, Shammy isn't a word and is only one letter short of Shaman.
I think someone has a new year's eve hang over Shammy and Shaman are both the same length, the only difference being the last two letters.

And to add some content at least to this post a tip on how to avoid those Cave Ins for Bladefire. While having somewhat higher health and armor makes them easier to survive, the best thing you can do is install SCT and move whenever you see the Cave In debuff pop up on it. That way you should take perhaps a rare few ticks during the fight. Don't be afraid to move out of dps range for a while while doing that.
#5918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0gorsameth
That is with kings Death_phobos cause your right with 1 str being 2 ap.
As for your second question, this would also make 1 ap worth 1.1 ep. which pretty much screws it up as a baseline. so yes kings adds an effective 11% and not 10 but as 1 ap = 1ep this is pretty much ignored
#5919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Addon quetion

Anybody want to share any addons for shammys they couldnt see playing without? I downloaded Enhancer and Disqodice already but was unhappy with all the symbols around the character, should I just give it time and work through the distractions? I for one use another addon called Shamanfriend that gives info on alor of Shaman action in battle. -Ankha
#5920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by death_Phobos
Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2.2 EP


How is it possible that without Kings Strenght has the Value 2.2 and Ap 1 ?
1.1 -> 2.2
OR
1.0 ->2.0
Kings adds 10% of your base stats. AP is not affected by this, which means that 1 AP without kings is 1 AP with kings.
Strength goes from 2 to 2.2 AP because with kings you'll have 1.1 str for every point you have without it (thus, with kings it's AP value is 2.2).
#5921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quaunaut
Looking through the gem choices I've made in the past I'm suddenly wondering how AP can be so important a stat. Currently I have a 24.73% chance to crit, and 941 AP. If I was to switch out all my full yellow +8 crit rating gems for +4 crit rating and 4 str, I'd lose about .5%, while gaining only 24 AP. Would this truly be a boon to my DPS? That just seems horribly off.

Or is it that there is a cutoff point, where once you get so much crit when raid buffed, the AP overtakes as the important stat(because of temporary buff uptime)?
#5922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0vorda
Originally Posted by Quaunaut
Looking through the gem choices I've made in the past I'm suddenly wondering how AP can be so important a stat. Currently I have a 24.73% chance to crit, and 941 AP. If I was to switch out all my full yellow +8 crit rating gems for +4 crit rating and 4 str, I'd lose about .5%, while gaining only 24 AP. Would this truly be a boon to my DPS? That just seems horribly off.

Or is it that there is a cutoff point, where once you get so much crit when raid buffed, the AP overtakes as the important stat(because of temporary buff uptime)?
Have you considered reading the first post completely and then using Yo's sim abit?
#5923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• frotes
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Kings adds 10% of your base stats. AP is not affected by this, which means that 1 AP without kings is 1 AP with kings.
Strength goes from 2 to 2.2 AP because with kings you'll have 1.1 str for every point you have without it (thus, with kings it's AP value is 2.2).
I believe he means that there is a typo because it says WITHOUT kings str is 2.2 instead of WITH kings.
#5924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yes the T6 values do include Kings, sorry. Sebudai posted that he had used kings and I had missed it and forgot to update the post.
#5925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quaunaut
Originally Posted by vorda
Have you considered reading the first post completely and then using Yo's sim abit?
Didn't think to use the Calc. I've been reading this thread daily(and referencing the main post nearly as often to guildies/friends) for awhile. <3
#5926SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Quaunaut
Originally Posted by vorda
Have you considered reading the first post completely and then using Yo's sim abit?
Didn't think to use the Calc. I've been reading this thread daily(and referencing the main post nearly as often to guildies/friends) for awhile. <3
#5927SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Bladefire
I guess what I am asking is leather with a much higher EP and stam or mail with the lower EP value and higher armor? I have seen Beowolf's wonderful spreadsheet with the highest gear being leather, keiji wears a mix and other wear all mail. Is there a value or calcuation that can be applied to the armor value and stam to help evaluate pieces for us when we have this choice? What is the crossover point between armor and stam?

Example: It looks to me based on my armor that 1 point of armor equals .0068% reduction in damage.

I've always went by on the principle that the rogues can have the leather first, unless it's on an extraordinary item such as [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]. I would've loved to compete on bidding with them on this, but the habits of old have the rogues with a leather priority. Like I said however, I don't really mind them having it all first. Considering you are there to buff them, not epeen about your own DPS you should be of the same mindset.
#5928SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Originally Posted by Illundai
I've always went by on the principle that the rogues can have the leather first, unless it's on an extraordinary item such as [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]. I would've loved to compete on bidding with them on this, but the habits of old have the rogues with a leather priority. Like I said however, I don't really mind them having it all first. Considering you are there to buff them, not epeen about your own DPS you should be of the same mindset.
That is very bad reasoning imo. Yes, we make up our dps shortage from rogues with buffing. Despite that amount of dps we do is crucial, thats were you are wrong. I would say you should look more about the effect of the upgrade opposed to letting pure dps get item. I do not know how much of an upgrade it is relatively speaking from T6 or any other helm, but those enhance shamans who have equal chances on leather with rogues should find out and do their decision based on that.

Short version: We are there to buff, but overall goal is raid dps, not rogue dps. If you have equal rights to leather with rogues then go for leather upgrade if it is equal or bigger upgrade for you compared to rogues or dps warriors.
#5929SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Let's just say I disagree then. IMO, Leather is a luxury that is going to only offer a MARGINAL amount of DPS increase from your Mail. Some mail pieces are terrible, I'll agree with that, e.g. [Deadly Cuffs] vs [Wraps of Precise Flight], but in other slots the upgrade is really small; [Shadowmaster's Boots] vs [Softstep Boots of Tracking] / [Quickstrider Moccasins].

Don't get me wrong, I eventually do/did want those items, but I didn't mind waiting and using one of the mail equivalents, although they were a little worse. And yeah, of course your own dps DOES matter, but what is the difference between 10-30 DPS for you? What is that going to bring to the raid? Yeah, exactly - just as much as the 30 dps would've been to the raid when it came from the Rogue.
#5930SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0death_Phobos
Originally Posted by frotes
I believe he means that there is a typo because it says WITHOUT kings str is 2.2 instead of WITH kings.

Atleast someone understood my Question. THX for correcting the Typo.
#5931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0kriondt
haste/flurry

maybe this was already stated....but does haste and flurry share the same effect on WF?
#5932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mulgero
Originally Posted by Illundai
And yeah, of course your own dps DOES matter, but what is the difference between 10-30 DPS for you? What is that going to bring to the raid? Yeah, exactly - just as much as the 30 dps would've been to the raid when it came from the Rogue.
Well to be honest for dps group living shaman is more value than living rogue. Our buffs only last when we're alive, better gear will give more sta, more armor, more AP which will result more dps for us and we live longer. Also in form of UR our AP increase goes to your group. Selfish or not but enhance shaman is always worth more than any other dps member in your group.

You should be selfish but not stupid when choosing whether to get upgrade or not. Whole mail/leather argument is old and purely worthless as I could say pretty safely that in 80-90% cases leather will be superior to mail pieces and by quite large margin.
#5933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Jaggana
Hello,

I've read the 1st post but i have some problems to use Yo's Simulator, is there any tutorial to help me please ?
I'm french and my English a kind of an obstacle...

Thx for the post !!
#5934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Illundai
Let's just say I disagree then. IMO, Leather is a luxury that is going to only offer a MARGINAL amount of DPS increase from your Mail. Some mail pieces are terrible, I'll agree with that, e.g. [Deadly Cuffs] vs [Wraps of Precise Flight], but in other slots the upgrade is really small; [Shadowmaster's Boots] vs [Softstep Boots of Tracking] / [Quickstrider Moccasins].

Don't get me wrong, I eventually do/did want those items, but I didn't mind waiting and using one of the mail equivalents, although they were a little worse. And yeah, of course your own dps DOES matter, but what is the difference between 10-30 DPS for you? What is that going to bring to the raid? Yeah, exactly - just as much as the 30 dps would've been to the raid when it came from the Rogue.
Might be stupid of me, but don't hunters want mail? So it really doesn't matter what you go for, you're competing with a class eitherway. Personally I think DKP is there to award those who give an effort, no need to make arrangements on the side. If leather grants more, why settle for mail?
#5935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by kriondt
maybe this was already stated....but does haste and flurry share the same effect on WF?
What effect do they have at all on Windfury?

Originally Posted by Mulgero
Also in form of UR our AP increase goes to your group
No it doesn't, UR is 10% of the group member's AP, not 10% of your AP.
#5936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ung
Ok I couldn't find anywhere to ask this so I will ask here.

My guild atm is having the Windfury totem vs GoA Debate. As usual all the shamans druids and hunters thinks its evil to consider Windfury totem. One of the shamans came up with an interesting theory that Windfury gives 6% dps to rogues and Warriors while Goa is 3% more or less to every dps class ( not casters ofc ) So they are saying that the only time Windfury should be used is in groups like 2 warriors 2 rogues etc. Anything that even has 1 druid or hunter should be GoA

I was just wondering what exactly are that stats? Windfury vs GoA? I know the thread on page one says if warrior = in group then Windfury but I was wondering if there was any theorycraft to that?

Also any help in persuading them would be helpful
#5937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
They're just pulling numbers out of their ass.
#5938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Illundai
Let's just say I disagree then. IMO, Leather is a luxury that is going to only offer a MARGINAL amount of DPS increase from your Mail.
While this BECOMES true in T5/T6 content, it is NOT true at lower levels. In and below T4, the leather offers 10+% dps increases over the best mail.

According to MaxDPS (using defaults, YES not a perfect engine but nice for comparisons):
[Fiend Slayer Boots] vs [Edgewalker Longboots] a 10% difference
[Shifting Camouflage Pants] vs [Shallow-grave Trousers] an 18% difference
[Girdle of the Prowler] vs [Girdle of Treachery] a 19% difference

A shaman trying to up his DPS to enter that content would do well to replace his mail in at least some slots -- boots, bracers, belt and pants, for example, leaving head & shoulders or head & gloves for the excellent T4 2 piece set bonus.

Keep in mind, though: if you are dealing with drops OR rewards, if you know your EP, you can evaluate an upgrade very easily. Roll on big upgrades. Howver, if you do this and ONLY this, as I do, you will wind up wearing a lot of leather.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 12:30 PM.
#5939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
GoA is NOT 3% to all dps classes. It's 3.5% CRIT for shamans; other classes get different benefits due to different agi-> crit scaling and agi -> AP. But the benefit from GoA is not MORE than 3%, so let's run with it even though it's crap.

WF on the other hand is 13.2%+ (20%+ to 2/3) of a user's white damage (a straight 20%+ if they use 2H). Considering white damage makes up more than half of their numbers, DPS warriors and combat rogues see well more than the proposed 6% increase to total dps.

It all comes down to white damage percentage. All DPS being equal, two of your group get +13% to 60% of their damage, they're getting a larger benefit than if the whole group was getting 3%. (These are all conservative estimates.)

And all DPS is NOT equal. I have a sword rogue who does 900+ damage with GoA and 1000+ with Windfury. That's 50% more than what our feral puts out WITH GoA. Guess which totem I drop?

I mean, it's not like I *WANT* to drop it. Two weeks ago in Gruul's our raid leader (a hunter) put me in his group for GoA. I got second place in DPS, only a few points from our best sword rogue. Great for me -- not so great from the raid, who benefit so much from that rogue's output that we usually soulstone him.
#5940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Originally Posted by Capital
Might be stupid of me, but don't hunters want mail? So it really doesn't matter what you go for, you're competing with a class eitherway. Personally I think DKP is there to award those who give an effort, no need to make arrangements on the side. If leather grants more, why settle for mail?
That's the thing, you are claiming bidding rights on 2 armor proficiencies. I bet you wouldn't like it if the warriors and ret paladins started bidding on your mail either :P.

PS: It's no use discussing the leather vs mail, it's been beaten to death before and nothing constructive comes out of it.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/02/08 at 12:21 PM.
#5941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Its like every 10 pages we need to discuss this all over again.
#5942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
Ung, this has been beaten, like the leather Vs. mail debate, to death. It was once a horse, now it's a smear of glue - and people are still swinging. The basics are as the first post says...

Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group

Grace of Air should be considered for use only if the above are false, and under these conditions:
A feral druid tank is in the group (ie, bear... not kitty)
A prot warrior is in your group on a non threat limited fight with high damage components
Any combination of more than 2 hunter/druids is in the group

I believe the general equation was something like...
WF if 2*(Warrior+Sword Rogue) > (Hunter+Druid+Dagger Rogue)

Not to mention the excellent mathematical breakdown posted above. Unfortunately for our DPS, there are few times when GoA will ever outshine WF on a melee group.
#5943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Niacin
Originally Posted by Malan
They're just pulling numbers out of their ass.
Then please explain to me why my stats program, and other peoples stats programs report Windfury as between 4-6% total dps. Where is this 13+% you claim it gives?

GoA 3.5% crit to only shamans? You do realise that other classes also have reasonable crit rates from this totem. Rogues and Warriors gain about 2%.

If I actually saw the dps increase rates you were quoting, do you not think i would favor WF over GoA. The full explanation that i gave for my theorycraft of GoA vs WF, was based on sound common sense and ingame stats. It utilises ALL aspects of dps including dps from poisons, sharpening stones, bonus crit, and the basis of my post on our Guild site was to show that WF totem does not add 20% dps as was claimed during raids, and that GoA is not useless.

We had 1 Warrior, 2 Hunters in the grp. Another time we had 1 Warrior and 2 Hunters AND a Feral tank. You do not have the context with which to say "I have pulled numbers out of my ass."

But the benefit from GoA is not MORE than 3%
You are incorrect with regards to my Guild, because you are not counting dps increases from other sources that WF replaces. Rogues can gain almost 2.5% dps increase alone from the crit, and the addition of a MH poison should push it past 3%. Like many theorycrafters, I assume you are only looking at WF vs GoA w/o including the loss of dps through other temporary MH weapon enchants.
#5944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Niacin

If I actually saw the dps increase rates you were quoting
Since your profile says you have no WoW account, I'm going to assume you aren't seeing any DPS increases at all.

And what "stats programs" are you referring to? Sure as hell isn't the DPS warrior spreadsheet or the Rogue DPS spreadsheets which clearly indicate WF as superior.
#5945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ridan
Originally Posted by Niacin
Then please explain to me why my stats program, and other peoples stats programs report Windfury as between 4-6% total dps. Where is this 13+% you claim it gives?

WF on the other hand is 13.2%+ (20%+ to 2/3) of a user's white damage (a straight 20%+ if they use 2H)
Take time to read other's post please.



To add to this direct damage increase you have for warrior, to factor in the extra rage generated by windfury proc.
#5946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Nite_Moogle
Originally Posted by Niacin
Then please explain to me why my stats program, and other peoples stats programs report Windfury as between 4-6% total dps.
Your stats program is wrong. You will not beat Windfury with GoA+weapon enchants in any reasonable raid situation.
#5947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Niacin
You do not have the context with which to say "I have pulled numbers out of my ass."
And whose fault is this?

Your point about ignoring other mainhand imbues is valid. It never occurred to me because my guild fields a real live melee group (warrior, rogues, etc) and we had seen with our own eyes the value of Windfury as opposed to stones & poisons.

If you're grouping with two hunters, then yeah, it's worth re-evaluating. If you are comfortable with empirical results that claim a 6% increase between the Windfury imbue and some other MH imbue, then you have answered your own question and you don't need our help.

This context also begs the question of why you've got those hunters in your group. Hunters gain nothing from UR.
#5948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Areus
The math has been done, time and time again to show that WF is far superior to GoA whenever a warrior is present in the group. People have done the math to show that WF is the best MH combat enchant any melee class can put on thier weapon. However, it also boils down to personal preferance. If you are not min/maxing then GoA is fine. It makes you look really good on meters.

I use Recount as my damage meter and WWS on occasion when I can get enough people from my raid to help gather data for an accurate readout. What program are you using to show others WF damage? I just get the number of extra attacks that they gained. Nothing to show the extra damage that they did.

If you keep getting put into a group with hunters/ferals your raid is not utilizing you to your full potential. If people are mad that they are not getting GoA, learn how to twist totems to benefit the group even more. Although at a cost of your personal DPS.

This is an age-old argument that needs to end, and people just need to brush off other peoples stupidity. Its your class, dont let other people tell you how to optomize it. You tell them how you improve thier class. Remind your rogues to not poison/stone thier MH because they will be getting WF. Even dagger rogues see an increase in DPS with WF so there is no argument for any other rogue MH combat enchant.
#5949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Durigen
Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group
Tanking warriors take more damage with Windfury down due to increased numbers of parries. So this is where you would use your brain to determine if the threat is worth the damage.

I generally only drop WF (since the nerf) if I have 1+ DPS warrior or 3+ rogues with me. With 2 rogues and no warrior in a full dps group, it usually comes close to a wash on goa versus wf. So I'd drop GOA to spread the buffs around.
#5950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Remraf
Originally Posted by Ankha
Anybody want to share any addons for shammys they couldnt see playing without? I downloaded Enhancer and Disqodice already but was unhappy with all the symbols around the character, should I just give it time and work through the distractions? I for one use another addon called Shamanfriend that gives info on alor of Shaman action in battle. -Ankha

Personally, I like Totemus. It uses the Sphere mod, so you have lots of clickies in a close group, including all totems sorted by element. It also has totem cooldown timers, you can put your ankh timer on there.. i have it set up so it's left-click Purge, right-click Totemic call.. it's a really great addon you can find at wow.curse.com. That and Wf3sec (which I'm not sure is working atm) are pretty much all I need for shaman things.
#5951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You click to Purge? o.O
#5952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Durigen
Always use Windfury if the following conditions are True:
A DPS warrior is in your group
A warrior who is tanking is in your group
A warrior is in your group
If no warrior, more than 1 sword rogue is in the group
Actually I have to strongly disagree with this, for the following reason:

A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM.

So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading.
#5953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Remraf
Originally Posted by Malan
You click to Purge? o.O

Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys).
#5954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Many of the eternal debates posed in this forum are due to differences in philosophy. It boils down to which is more important to you: personal DPS, or raid DPS.

Personal DPS
Often marked by an elemental off spec.
Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type.
Drops GoA.
Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats.
Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP.

Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.

Most of the regulars here are very raid oriented. Most of the new people are having personal DPS issues, that's why there here. It makes sense these issues would keep coming up.

Incidentally: I am taking my guild's raid downtime to re-evaluate the elemental spec and am noticing a ~6% personal DPS increase. Today is my last day, though -- I miss the faster Healing Wave and bigger totem radius, and I'm seeing more shock resists making interrupts and snares less reliable.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 3:46 PM.
#5955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Remraf
Uh.. yea? I don't find myself needing to spam Purge that much.. so to have it on a nice big sphere right where my cursor usually is leads to quicker purges when i *do* need them. (I have it hotkeyed to 6, which is sorta far from the main usuable keys).
I pretty much spam purge constantly when in cooldown on shocks/SS our of habit. On mobs that need to be purged, you have to do it pretty much constantly to catch things quickly, and in PvP I'll moderate it a bit based on current mana and things like Lifebloom. But yeah, I don't think I'd be able to get anything done if purge was used for clicking.
#5956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Einahpets
I haven't gone through the last pages with a fine tooth comb or whatever, but I was wondering if it was at all possible, since you have commented the T6 content items and EP values on the main post, if you could possibly post which Hyjal/Black Temple gems are best suited for enhancement shamans? Thanks alot
#5957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Rob
They're obviously the purple versions of the blue gems that are listed in the main post.
#5958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Mox
Actually I have to strongly disagree with this, for the following reason:

A 2H (MS) warrior, should be using a slam cycle for maximum dps. Slam can't proc WF so they effectively only gain 3-5% more damage from WF, therefore if you were presented with a group such as MS warrior/hunter/hunter/rogue/shaman I would drop GoA, especially if the hunters are BM.

So yeah I don't like this broad statement that dps warrior = WF, is very misleading.
Out of interest, how does your MS Warrior generate rage while he is chain slamming?
I know that if I am a couple of seconds slow on my twisting due to having to heal or move some groups around mid combat my DPS Warrior lets me know about it!

However in the group you have quoted I don't argue the use of GoA, although I would personally twist.

Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
#5959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
#5960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Joy
Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
Refreshing totems on the run, spamming shocks/SS on the cooldown, watching the environment and your threat and your mana and being ready to Bloodlust/SR/interrupt/kite/splash heal isn't enough action for you?

I mean, it's not like we're Elemental over here.

Have you considered twisting Fire Nova and Searing/Magma? It's worth, like, 40 extra DPS for two actions every 15s and might get your heart rate up. Something to do with all that extra mana you'll have, too.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 6:49 PM.
#5961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Rob
They're obviously the purple versions of the blue gems that are listed in the main post.
Not really Rob.. at least for me maybe it's opposite for other shamans but :

10 Str > 5 Crit/5 Str for Pure dps.

Anybody in Tier 6 content finding that the 2xSONs (Syphon of the Natherizm) are better then the new S3 weapons for dps ?

Been running it in about 3 simulators & they all show that the SONs are better.
#5962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Bragor
Not really Rob.. at least for me maybe it's opposite for other shamans but :

10 Str > 5 Crit/5 Str for Pure dps.
What Rob meant I think was purple as in epic, and blue as in rare, not as in say Nightseye and Star of Elune
#5963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Personal DPS
Often marked by an elemental off spec.
Will roll on any upgrade, regardless of armor type.
Drops GoA.
Will sacrifice stam/armor for DPS stats.
Will sacrifice int/mp5 for DPS stats.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed 26.4 EP.
1. This has nothing to do with either raid dps or personal dps, it's preference.
2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps.
3. Thats just completely wrong.
4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me.
5. Same, mp/5 is way too expensive to award getting some.
6. Ah, well I must admit I changed it early, but thats because the item I wanted to get instead was about to be dissed. 12 str in a group that greatly consists of rogues isn't that great anyway.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.
1. Again, boils down to preference.
2. Thats just...wrong
3. 'meh, I'd say twisting is generally an aspect of the more raid concentrated shaman, I myself don't do it because I just can't see the fun in spamming buttons, and it generally takes my attention away from important events, such as death.
4. Stamina comes with the gear, It's really hard to have less than 11k health at T5 level with 2 warriors in your group.
5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all.

This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles.
#5964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Capital
1. This has nothing to do with either raid dps or personal dps, it's preference.
Elemental *IS* better DPS, and it comes at the cost of raid flexibilty. The preference stems from philosophy. Thank you for proving my point.
2. Again, doesn't affect raid dps.
If I choose not to roll on a leather item that is an upgrade, I choose to give it to somebody else. That indirectly affects the raid's DPS and directly undermines personal DPS.
3. Thats just completely wrong.
Dropping GoA, regardless of group makeup? I'd call it wrong, but it's still quite common, even among folks who are aware of the theory, even in successful endgame guilds. I know this because I occasionally have to explain to melee from other guilds what Windfury DOES. I can only assume this behavior comes from a desire to personally top the meters.
4. And so should every shaman, I can't even name 1 time where the added armor from mail would have saved me.
I agree, and yet it comes up ALL the time.
5. Int and MP/5 are really expensive stats for our class, you should -not- be aiming for it at all.
I agree -- but one of the main reasons all our gear HAS these stats is that Blizzard expects us to play a more dps AND splash heal role, even though such a role can often mean a chaotic raid. From page one of this thread there have been people who spout the importance of these stats in filling this role, which is why I brought it up.
This looks more of a good player vs bad player list than a well composed list of playstyles.
Hey, it was an idea I had over lunch; a bad lunch. I think that philosophies play a large part in the eternal arguments but maybe trying to codify these isn't as easy as it seemed at first.

How much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post? I tried to explain how opposing viewpoints on contentious issues may be attributed to philosophical differences, and you called them "wrong." I think so too. That's kind of my point.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/02/08 at 7:44 PM.
#5965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Capital
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Elemental *IS* better DPS, and it comes at the cost of raid flexibilty. The preference stems from philosophy. Thank you for proving my point.
It will not reduce raid damage in any way, it just puts extra strain on the shaman to make sure everyone gets the totems.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
If I choose not to roll on a leather item that is an upgrade, I choose to give it to somebody else. That directly affects the raid's DPS and directly undermines personal DPS.
Reduce your own dps by 5, add other players dps by 5, overall, it's still the same. It's an RPG, without the will to kit your character out, why play?
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Dropping GoA, regardless of group makeup? I'd call it wrong, but it's still quite common, even among folks who are aware of the theory, even in successful endgame guilds. I know this because I occasionally have to explain to melee from other guilds what Windfury DOES. I can only assume this behavior comes from a desire to personally top the meters.
I don't know, I'm generally the only shaman around but I have to say that every shaman I know, knows that windfury is better.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I agree -- but one of the main reasons all our gear HAS these stats is that Blizzard expects us to play a more dps AND splash heal role, even though such a role can often mean a chaotic raid. From page one of this thread there have been people who spout the importance of these stats in filling this role, which is why I brought it up.
Well, you can see it's mostly removed on tier 4 and 5, tier 6 being un-adjusted as of yet. Though I have to say healing is now a part of enhancement shamans as of patch 2.3. When there is a lot of damage going about that extra burst of healing from a shaman with 1k + healing can save the day. The reduction of the mana cost on shocks actually allows us to do just that.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Hey, it was an idea I had over lunch; a bad lunch. I think that philosophies play a large part in the eternal arguments but maybe trying to codify these isn't as easy as it seemed at first. Still -- how much did your own philosophy color your reading of the post?
People have preferences, it's a game and to a certain extent you should play it the way you want to. Some want to improve their own damage, others want to improve the general raid performance. Neither is bad.

To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air?
Reason I bring it up, when my guild does/did Morogrim, we would rather have a druid tank than a warrior, makes for some nice soaking. And druids just love agility, so we also give/gave him a Gift of Air totem. In the end what shaman you'd use boils down to if you want more damage or more stability in the fight.
What do you guys think would be the best shammy to sacrifice?
#5966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Capital
People have preferences ... some want to improve their own damage, others want to improve the general raid performance. Neither is bad.
Which was sort of my point. I tried to clump these preferences together to form cogent philosophies, schools of thought on different ways to play a shaman without playing it badly.

To not turn this into a quotewar, a point from me. Say you have 2 shamans, 1 resto and 1 enhancement. Who would you put with the tank for Gift of Air?
You're moving the resto from a healer group, I assume, and the enhance from a melee group. This means your healers are losing ~35+ mp5 and ~100 bonus healing, which should be way less than 10%. Your melee group is probably losing ~20% due to the loss of totems. I think it's gotta be the healer who moves, unless you have mana issues.
#5967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Originally Posted by Bragor
Anybody in Tier 6 content finding that the 2xSONs (Syphon of the Natherizm) are better then the new S3 weapons for dps ?

Been running it in about 3 simulators & they all show that the SONs are better.
I use 2x Syphons and Yo!'s sim shows 2x Vengeful axes to be better. The sim showed 1374 dps with syphons and 1401 with vengeful axes. Another thing a lot of people don't realize about Syphons is that the proc actually hurts shadow priest and warlock dps, it consumes imp shadowbolt charges. The locks and priests in my guild bitch about it constantly.

For reference:
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xsyphon.JPG
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xvengeful.JPG
#5968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shabadu
Originally Posted by spanko
I use 2x Syphons and Yo!'s sim shows 2x Vengeful axes to be better. The sim showed 1374 dps with syphons and 1401 with vengeful axes. Another thing a lot of people don't realize about Syphons is that the proc actually hurts shadow priest and warlock dps, it consumes imp shadowbolt charges. The locks and priests in my guild bitch about it constantly.

For reference:
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xsyphon.JPG
http://spanko.shackspace.com/2xvengeful.JPG
This is the biggest myth concerning Syphons. It does not consume imp shadowbolt.
#5969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
#5970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Gear question

I've been doing BG's since I hit 70 (1 month ago), and I got some honor and marks now.

Question: should I be purchasing the Sesion 1 gear?

Or save my honor points for other slots like rings and such that arnt arena gear options.

... I am getting my Arena batteles in, but arena points arnt really farmable as Honor is.
#5971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aett
Originally Posted by Ankha
I've been doing BG's since I hit 70 (1 month ago), and I got some honor and marks now.

Question: should I be purchasing the Sesion 1 gear?

Or save my honor points for other slots like rings and such that arnt arena gear options.

... I am getting my Arena batteles in, but arena points arnt really farmable as Honor is.
My take on it is to get two cheap pieces of season 1 and then focus on the vindicator gear with your honor. But that all depends on what you want. Do you want to spend more honor in the long run and get an immediate boost in resil? Or do you want to spend less and wait a while before getting good gear? To me having a semblance of survivability is more fun than being patient and waiting for gear.

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) there isn't much of any choice while gearing for PvP so I recommend just looking at what you can get, how much it costs, and how soon you can get it and then determine what your ideal plan is. Do it with pencil and paper if that is better for you. There isn't really any "better" way to go about it since you're going to wind up with the same gear in the end.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? is probably a better place for this discussion since it's becoming the de-facto enhancement PvP thread. If this answer isn't satisfactory I'd go ask the question again (maybe with a bit more detail) in that thread.
#5972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0rava
Originally Posted by Nemaa
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
Really? Your gear isn't that much different than mine and I have Vengeful coming out ahead by ~30 dps.
#5973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
Originally Posted by Kasi
A warrior uses slams in between auto attacks. You don't chain slams without due to the auto swing, otherwise it kills your dps. Thus a warrior still gets 20% of his white auto attacks into WF.
some do not:

Serida - WWS

amazing DPS, 0 slams.

Not sure why a warrior decide to never slam, seems like a good ability to me when quartz is enabled, but apperently there are other options.
#5974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
He is using hamstring with WF pre nerf.
#5975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Joy
He is using hamstring with WF pre nerf.
Ten hamstrings doesn't seem like that much to me. Shouldn't that number be higher if he was using it instead of slam?
#5976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Kasi
The fight was 3 minutes long. He has top of the line gear. He had a feral druid, had haste 4 times (probably DST), used deathwish, used recklessness and was bloodlusted all on a fight where there is some aoe damage that fuels his rage. I'd be surprised if he didn't pull those numbers considering the cooldowns he used.
#5977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Joy
Originally Posted by Kasi
The fight was 3 minutes long. He has top of the line gear. He had a feral druid, had haste 4 times (probably DST), used deathwish, used recklessness and was bloodlusted all on a fight where there is some aoe damage that fuels his rage. I'd be surprised if he didn't pull those numbers considering the cooldowns he used.
Yes all it proved is that he could have much higher dps if he maintained a proper slam cycle

edit waaaaay off topic, preaching to the converted etc
#5978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Seems thread broke 1 mil views :P

Anyways, concerning last few posts -- its a very short fight and all cooldowns used so if fight went 3 times as long his dps would take clear dive. 2 min fights are never good to compare regardless if it is shaman, warrior or any other class. Bloodlust is 10 min cooldown, Recklessness is 30 min cooldown and so on, so it can leave very skewed look from dps point of view.
#5979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0spanko
Originally Posted by Shabadu
This is the biggest myth concerning Syphons. It does not consume imp shadowbolt.
Really? I never tested it or anything, everyone just started bitching and I took their word for it. Think Ill grab one of these whiny locks and drag him out to blasted lands.
#5980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Draco Argentum
Originally Posted by Areus
The math has been done, time and time again to show that WF is far superior to GoA whenever a warrior is present in the group. People have done the math to show that WF is the best MH combat enchant any melee class can put on thier weapon.
But this maths was removed from the main post. A link should be put back, then telling people to go read the main post would be reasonable. At present the main post just has the answer with no backup, no wonder people want to question it.
#5981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0TradewindKlaatubarada
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Many of the eternal debates posed in this forum are due to differences in philosophy. It boils down to which is more important to you: personal DPS, or raid DPS.

Raid DPS
Often marked by a resto off spec.
Will pick up leather only if nobody else wants it, if at all.
Drops WF pretty much everywhere; may totem twist if mana allows.
Wants at least some stam/armor to make it easier for the healers.
Wants at least some int/mp5 to sustain shocks within a twisting cycle.
Keeps 2 pieces of T4 until upgrades exceed the benefit +12 STR offers the entire group.

Most of the regulars here are very raid oriented. Most of the new people are having personal DPS issues, that's why there here. It makes sense these issues would keep coming up.

Incidentally: I am taking my guild's raid downtime to re-evaluate the elemental spec and am noticing a ~6% personal DPS increase. Today is my last day, though -- I miss the faster Healing Wave and bigger totem radius, and I'm seeing more shock resists making interrupts and snares less reliable.
This reminds me of the old mentality that so much hurted the hybrid classes in the past. I pick leather as the first one if it means a bigger upgrade to me than to anyone else. AC does NOT matter in PvE as far as melee DPS is concerned, so items should be distributed according to it's stat budged solely.

Plus, as someone has commented previously, getting stam/armor makes no difference at all. If some fight requires stamina you equip your PvP gear to reach safe limits, as you do with SR and so on and so on. At most, you get hybrid stamina gems when socket bonus makes up for it without causing much of a loss.

Getting int/mp5 is just ridiculous, you didn't need mp5 before previous patch neither you do now that shocks cost more than a half less. Basically, mana has never been an issue for enhancement and you better go with extra AP to do more damage / regain more mana. That statement shows how clueless you are on enhancement shaman mechanics. There's an excellent first page where Malan trys to keep stuff up to date for a reason. Please, read it.

At this point there's no need to keep on commenting your post. We can continue this discussion as soon as you get a clue on enhancement mechanics.
#5982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Mox
Originally Posted by Joy
Out of interest, how does your MS Warrior generate rage while he is chain slamming?
I know that if I am a couple of seconds slow on my twisting due to having to heal or move some groups around mid combat my DPS Warrior lets me know about it!

However in the group you have quoted I don't argue the use of GoA, although I would personally twist.

Am I the only one praying twisting isn't removed because of how boring Enhance is without it?
Don't know, use uses a white attack/slam/instant attack/white attack/slam/instant attack cycle pretty much whole fight. I vaguely remember him saying something about if his whites don't crit he doesn't do the instant attack cause of rage but he stacks crit upto 40%+ in raids.

In his damage breakdown he usually has about 30% of total damage as slams and only 5% of dmg as WFs, rest is white/MS/whirlwinds.

This is comparable to our other MS warrior who rarely uses slam, his WF damage is about 15% or so of total damage but his overall damage is usually much less than the other using slam.

Theres also some fights, Illidari council/Illidan for example where we rotate out melee for ranged for obvious reasons, so often get a group like rogue/rogue/hunter/hunter/myself, the rogues happily use double poisons + GoA cause they know its better for hunters on those occasions. Alot of the omgomgomgomg WF/GoA comes from selfishness of players, I just adopt the "if more people get benefit from X than Y then drop X" and have never had any compliants.
#5983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
You have some interessting Rogues there ^^ Mine have learnedd the prefference of WF a long time ago and they woould definitely be bitching if I dropped GoA. Anyway doesn´t matter, cause twisting is about the only thing keeping me from falling asleep during Raids 8)

So go TWIST !!! anybody who´s group makeup is somewhat strange! All of your group members will love you!
#5984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Durigen
I could be wrong, and apologize if I am. But I believe it's generally agreed upon that the term "DPS Warrior", POST WF nerf, means a dual-wielding fury warrior. For them, with such a huge number of white damage attacks, the WF totem enchant is positively amazing.

If that WWS Parse is from Pre-WF-nerf then the DPS output will be on a level that all but the absolute best geared warriors cannot compare with. Pre-nerf the MS warrior was absolutely devastating. So while most MS warriors that raid, use a Slam cycle between white attacks. Generally the equation for WF totem is designed in reference to modern Fury warriors, and past MS warriors.
#5985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Urstroyer
Originally Posted by Nemaa
In my case Syphons were on par with the Vengeful weapons. The simulation result was 1504 DPS in both cases.
I suppose I have better stats than you, what made the 0.2 weapon speed of the syphons equal to the dps and stat advantage of the vengeful weapons. A 0.2 slower weapon hits harder with WF and SS. An Orc would make better use of the Vengeful Axes though.
Have you considered the stat increase on both weapons for your sim? I tested it on my gear too (almost every slot bt/hyjal gear) which resulted in a dps increase for about 40-50dps. if you haven't entered the new stats of the s3 gear your result would make sense to me.

If you trade your dual syphons for s3 weapons you gain the following stats:
-> -32 attack power ( 2x34ap vs. 2x 50ap)
-> +16 hit rating (2x 8 hit rating vs. 0 hit rating)
-> +42 crit rating (2x 21 crit rating vs. 0 crit rating)
-> +98 armor penetration (2x 49 armor penetration vs. 0 armor penetration)

based on the ep values for high end gear listed in malan's posting only the stat gain is worth about 102 ep (weapon speed and dps unconsidered).

i don't really know, how to weight the weapon proc of the syphons but i doubt they would make a big difference.
#5986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the warrior slam rotation discussion would best fit here - [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and not here - Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#5987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by TradewindKlaatubarada
At this point there's no need to keep on commenting your post. We can continue this discussion as soon as you get a clue on enhancement mechanics.
Tradewind, don't start. I was trying to codify the opinions that OTHER SHAMANS have, in the past, posted in this thread and attribute them to some body of belief about how to play a character (so we could avoid fighting over them in the future). I don't hold those views myself, which if you'd check my armory you'd understand. 80% leather, 7500 health, 5000 mana and very nice DPS stats.
#5988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Originally Posted by Urstroyer
Have you considered the stat increase on both weapons for your sim? I tested it on my gear too (almost every slot bt/hyjal gear) which resulted in a dps increase for about 40-50dps. if you haven't entered the new stats of the s3 gear your result would make sense to me.

If you trade your dual syphons for s3 weapons you gain the following stats:
-> -32 attack power ( 2x34ap vs. 2x 50ap)
-> +16 hit rating (2x 8 hit rating vs. 0 hit rating)
-> +42 crit rating (2x 21 crit rating vs. 0 crit rating)
-> +98 armor penetration (2x 49 armor penetration vs. 0 armor penetration)

based on the ep values for high end gear listed in malan's posting only the stat gain is worth about 102 ep (weapon speed and dps unconsidered).

i don't really know, how to weight the weapon proc of the syphons but i doubt they would make a big difference.
You are right. Checking back my input values I added only 8 hit rating, 21 crit rating and 49 armor penetration, but subtracted only 16 attack power. Anyway the difference shouldn't be relevant. I'll make an other simulation with correct values later today.

The proc of the double syphons are around 2500 damage in a 3 minute encounter (~14 DPS).
#5989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
The proc of the double syphons are around 2500 damage over 3 minutes (~14 DPS).
Its entirely dependent on how many attacks you can make in the timespan of the buff being active though.
#5990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Malan
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the warrior slam rotation discussion would best fit here - [Warrior] Future of a DPS Warrior
and not here - Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
It seems that they were arguing more wether WF is still better then goa if the war is slamming and not getting as many white attacks. Regardless, wf is still better even if the war is slamming. And just for an answer on why Serida dosent slam.. Slam is a loss of dps giving a decent amount of haste and a 3.5 wep (I.E. Cataclysms edge) Serida's Explination
#5991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ung
Hi thanks for the posts regarding WF totem a few pages back.

I was wondering if there was anywhere i can find the actual numbers for wf vs goa. I tried the search engine but all the results just basically said. WF if a warrior is in group etc. Which sadly is not enough to persuade the GoA lovers.

thanks.
#5992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
You can find some of the breakdown here - Windfury Totem Change
Not sure if non-benefactors can access it right now, that's in the archives which are currently not visible to the public for some reason. Results in that thread though showed that warriors still benefit far far more from WF than from GoA. Rogues that are combat sword still get more from WF than GoA, daggers its neck and neck with WF in a slight lead.

This thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15993-p...issues_signup/ was supposed to test this stuff but I don't recall whatever came of it.
#5993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Ung
Any chance you could PM./ post here the maths? pretty please ?

Last edited by Ung : 01/03/08 at 11:59 AM.
#5994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Well in the case of Rogues, Vulajin, who maintains the rogue spreadsheets, did some napkin math at the time and showed that WF totem should provide around 85 dps (+ extra energy procs that he didn't model the feedback for) compared to GoA adding around 41 dps. (note that this was all done immediately after the change to WF totem to only proc from white attacks)
#5995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Gehenna
Originally Posted by Tsalrioth
It seems that they were arguing more wether WF is still better then goa if the war is slamming and not getting as many white attacks. Regardless, wf is still better even if the war is slamming. And just for an answer on why Serida dosent slam.. Slam is a loss of dps giving a decent amount of haste and a 3.5 wep (I.E. Cataclysms edge) Serida's Explination
Thanks for the great link Tsalrioth.
#5996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ankha
Originally Posted by Aett
My take on it is to get two cheap pieces of season 1 and then focus on the vindicator gear with your honor. But that all depends on what you want. Do you want to spend more honor in the long run and get an immediate boost in resil? Or do you want to spend less and wait a while before getting good gear? To me having a semblance of survivability is more fun than being patient and waiting for gear.

Fortunately (or maybe unfortunately) there isn't much of any choice while gearing for PvP so I recommend just looking at what you can get, how much it costs, and how soon you can get it and then determine what your ideal plan is. Do it with pencil and paper if that is better for you. There isn't really any "better" way to go about it since you're going to wind up with the same gear in the end.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ? is probably a better place for this discussion since it's becoming the de-facto enhancement PvP thread. If this answer isn't satisfactory I'd go ask the question again (maybe with a bit more detail) in that thread.
I wish I was patient enough to wait for better Arena Gear, but part of me wants to pull up a chair and just farm honor and marks and buy the season 1 arena gear and Vindicator gear + rings and cloak. I got on paper all the honor costs and marks I will need for every slot. Then I realised I wasn't lookin at the "Merciless" cleaver as stated in the first post but a regular one and my plan took a crap on me. Now I cant decide if the Arena will work fast enough for me to replace my Fist of Reckoning X2 before I just buy the weaker 90 DPS Cleaver.... btw sorry if im asking and posting in the wrong thread.
#5997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Illundai
Let's just say I disagree then. IMO, Leather is a luxury that is going to only offer a MARGINAL amount of DPS increase from your Mail. Some mail pieces are terrible, I'll agree with that, e.g. [Deadly Cuffs] vs [Wraps of Precise Flight], but in other slots the upgrade is really small; [Shadowmaster's Boots] vs [Softstep Boots of Tracking] / [Quickstrider Moccasins].

Don't get me wrong, I eventually do/did want those items, but I didn't mind waiting and using one of the mail equivalents, although they were a little worse. And yeah, of course your own dps DOES matter, but what is the difference between 10-30 DPS for you? What is that going to bring to the raid? Yeah, exactly - just as much as the 30 dps would've been to the raid when it came from the Rogue.


Is it just my weird AEP numbers or aren't Softstep the best boots of them all? at least 20 AEP ahead of Shadowmaster's in my case. Would be nice to know what they look like for other peoples values.
#5998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dekkan
Originally Posted by Paradox
Is it just my weird AEP numbers or aren't Softstep the best boots of them all? at least 20 AEP ahead of Shadowmaster's in my case. Would be nice to know what they look like for other peoples values.
I rate Shadowmaster's as 4.6 AEP higher than Softstep. Not a huge difference, but better.
#5999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Tiny little bit better for me too. :P
#6000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0paulg002
I have been reading this thread for several months now. It is hands down, the best reference for Enhancement Shaman and thank you for putting this together.

Several posts have come close but have not actually answered a question I have. (If they are, please send me back in to find it, I would rather just find it 1st than waste everyone's time by repeating already answered questions.)

I have just hit 70 last week and I'm grinding EOTS for my off hand. I have already created my main hander, the Drakefist Hammer. As you know this is a 2.7 speed weapon. From what I have read, the goal would be to have 2 slow weapons but also of the same speed. Right now, I have this. I am off handing The Fist of reckoning. but this is a level 88 weapon and is very out dated. My options for an off hander at level 115 or better with a 2.7 or slower speed are out of the question for me at this point. It will have to be 2.6. This means that I will be using an offhanded that is faster than my main hander. Has anyone done any graphing that reflects some sort of DPS loss as the offhand weapon speed decreases relative to the main hand's?
#6001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
The reasoning for the same speed was that Flurry bugged out and gave 2 hasted hits from one charge or something along those lines? I never really got that part :P.
#6002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Illundai
Tiny little bit better for me too. :P

What are your AEP values? I'd like to test and see if my Enhancer isn't bugging or something.
#6003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
I believe it was due to flurry hasting your "next swing", but if both weapons swung at the same time, it wouldn't choose one over the other, so hasted both. Once you get a high enough crit to get near perma-flurry, it stops mattering though.
#6004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0diemos80
Sorry if this has been asked 1294801 times before, but is there a spreadsheet or other data file that rates gear by slot ala Binkenstein's Elemental Shaman ShamStats excel? Thanks!
#6005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aspartem
Well, its me again.. The Enhancer is still bugging around for God sake..
Everytime i try to copy+paste the String into the Addon the following Message appears: "Some AEP values was not included, please check the following AEP Values (Stamina, Resilience, WeaponExpertise, OhDps, MhDps).

I use this String: AP:100;CR:206;STR:200;AGI:182;HR:181;HsR:169;IA:031;ExP:335;
and this Command: /enhancer EpNumbers Crazyshamanimport (Copypasted String)
Hell.. Its the third week now, and the Addon still doesnt work correctly.. just cant find the mistake. Please, please help me, else i get totally crazy.

Greetings
Aspartem
#6006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by diemos80
Sorry if this has been asked 1294801 times before, but is there a spreadsheet or other data file that rates gear by slot ala Binkenstein's Elemental Shaman ShamStats excel? Thanks!
Due to the complexity that is WF mechanics, any item ranking system like mine would be extremely hard to design.
#6007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
The "two weapons of the same speed" hypotheses was based on a combination the observation that Flurry "occasionally" would affect 4 swings instead of 3 and the belief that having two weapons of the same speed would increase the number of mainhand windfury procs.

A lot of thought went into exploring these concepts, but to my mind the proposed benefit of having same-speed weapons was never proven to exceed the benefit of having a slower weapon in the first place.

I myself use Dragonmaw and a S1 axe; it's a great combo, especially considering how cheap it was. Stop resisting! There is NO better way to improve your overall DPS than improving your weapons.
#6008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Nacht
It wouldn't have to be as stand alone as your spreadsheet, Bink. No need to actively recalculate EP values based on current gear. We could still use Yo!'s sim to calculate our values. Just have a list, like yours, of our currently equipped gear on the first tab. But instead of referencing the EP of your gear to calculate stat weights, one could just manually plug in their EP values on one tab. Then, like yours, have a tab for each gear slot which calculates the EP for all possible gear that's been compiled into the spreadsheet. It would be fairly simple, as it would simply be a compilation of all available enhance gear in a nicely presented spreadsheet, similar to yours. One of the beauties of your spreadsheet is that it presents a very nice format for gear comparison and upgrade selection.

I have, in fact, taken your sheet and adjusted the % columns to be a percentage of total DEP/HEP from all of my gear instead of just the specific slot in order to determine if I should spend honor on ring or neck, badges on belt or trinket, by comparing how it would improve my overall DEP/HEP. The same can be done for an enhancement spreadsheet with EP.

Hmmm, now if only I had the time, I'd actually just do it myself.

Last edited by Nacht : 01/03/08 at 5:07 PM. Reason: typo
#6009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by diemos80
Sorry if this has been asked 1294801 times before, but is there a spreadsheet or other data file that rates gear by slot ala Binkenstein's Elemental Shaman ShamStats excel? Thanks!
No spreadsheets, but you have do have resources.

First, if you use Yo's Simulator to compute your personal AEP, it will output a URL you can plug into Thottbot to get your customized item score (make sure you hit the SAVE button to apply it). You can then search for weapons and armor using this score as a parameter, or drool over the top 50.

Second, you can use MaxDPS.com, which is less accurate but much easier to use. This accuracy can be an issue, for example because it does not allow me to enter all of my passive haste procs, it weighs haste rating much heavier than Yo's does. Its weapon scores are also WAY off, it'll suggest <2.2s speed weapons that no theorycraft aware shaman should use except in very extreme circumstances.

After every couple of upgrades, you should revisit your site of choice and reevaluate your stat weights. A little of some stats (like hit rating or haste rating) can got a long way to changing the value of your other stats. You should also reevaluate any time your buff makeup changes dramatically (say, you lose a feral druid or only raid with 2 paladins).
#6010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0diemos80
Heh yeah I TOTALLY rely on Bink's ShamStats for my elemental shammie, but since good elemental gear is pretty scarce I've been filling my bags with the rot offspec stuff and was hoping there was a similar collection to reference which to loot and which to D/E.

I hear ya Bink that a comprehensive build model would make for an incredibly difficult project. I like Nacht's idea, though, if even for a simple reference workbook. You could also add a 'TIER' modifier that would lookup different EP values based on the values in Post 1 to build in some additional functionality.

I'd be willing to collaborate on this if a few others want to lend a hand and if Bink doesn't mind if his spreadsheet is used as a template. A few ppl each taking a slot or 2 after the conversion would be pretty speedy!
#6011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Nacht
It wouldn't have to be as stand alone as your spreadsheet, Bink. No need to actively recalculate EP values based on current gear. We could still use Yo!'s sim to calculate our values. Just have a list, like yours, of our currently equipped gear on the first tab. But instead of referencing the EP of your gear to calculate stat weights, one could just manually plug in their EP values on one tab. Then, like yours, have a tab for each gear slot which calculates the EP for all possible gear that's been compiled into the spreadsheet. It would be fairly simple, as it would simply be a compilation of all available enhance gear in a nicely presented spreadsheet, similar to yours. One of the beauties of your spreadsheet is that it presents a very nice format for gear comparison and upgrade selection.

I have, in fact, taken your sheet and adjusted the % columns to be a percentage of total DEP/HEP from all of my gear instead of just the specific slot in order to determine if I should spend honor on ring or neck, badges on belt or trinket, by comparing how it would improve my overall DEP/HEP. The same can be done for and enhancement spreadsheet with EP.

Hmmm, now if only I had the time, I'd actually just do it myself.
Good idea actually, but I would recommend checking out the "upgrade" tab, which compares the current item against 3 other items you specify.

Originally Posted by diemos80
Heh yeah I TOTALLY rely on Bink's ShamStats for my elemental shammie, but since good elemental gear is pretty scarce I've been filling my bags with the rot offspec stuff and was hoping there was a similar collection to reference which to loot and which to D/E.

I hear ya Bink that a comprehensive build model would make for an incredibly difficult project. I like Nacht's idea, though, if even for a simple reference workbook. You could also add a 'TIER' modifier that would lookup different EP values based on the values in Post 1 to build in some additional functionality.

I'd be willing to collaborate on this if a few others want to lend a hand and if Bink doesn't mind if his spreadsheet is used as a template. A few ppl each taking a slot or 2 after the conversion would be pretty speedy!
I am doing some work around set bonuses, but following this suggestion I'm pretty sure I can hack up a decent copy for you guys to use (although filling out the item database will be up to you!).

Time to go play with Yo!'s calculator for a bit.
#6012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yah but why would you need a spreadsheet for that, you can go to thottbot and do the same thing with their item weight system.
#6013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nacht
I don't feel I have the kind of control over Thottbot, or any other website for that matter, that I'd like to have. The filters always fail to meet my needs. I prefer the presentation style of having it in a spreadsheet all together in which I can quickly go from comparing helms to shoulders, etc. And I can take a spreadsheet and tailor it to my specific needs. But that's just me.
#6014SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Hey, if somebody wants to make a spreadsheet of all the leather & mail DPS items in the game broken down by slot along with their agility, strength, hit rating, haste rating, crit rating, attack power, armor penetration, expertise, DPS, one/main/off handability, weapon speed, gem slots and equivalences for on-use and on-equip procs, they're welcome to do so.

I'd rather use Thottbot/MaxDPS, and spend those 100 hours doing something useful.
#6015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Pyre
I prefer Lootzor myself, but yeah, that's a hundred hours I can do better things.
#6016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Toots Hepcat
Has Lootzor been updated recently? Last time I was there it didn't have any of the badge or ZA gear, and that's what I'm concentrating on these days.
#6017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Pyre
Possibly not. My guild isn't that far along, though, and the layout's much better IMHO. I stand corrected.
#6018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0ChaguraED
Originally Posted by diemos80
Sorry if this has been asked 1294801 times before, but is there a spreadsheet or other data file that rates gear by slot ala Binkenstein's Elemental Shaman ShamStats excel? Thanks!
Aren't the Spreadsheets at bemory23 Profile, bemory23 Details - FileFront.com what we're looking for?
It's all done by EP values that you can adjust for your specific stats.


The are from a poster on this thread, about 50 pages back
#6019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Binkenstein
Well, that makes that easy.

If someone wants to butcher my spreadsheet to include that, feel free (just include me in the credits or something), but I've found a few things I need to fix in the Ele/Resto version now.
#6020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0• Shabadu
Originally Posted by paulg002
Has anyone done any graphing that reflects some sort of DPS loss as the offhand weapon speed decreases relative to the main hand's?
Pretty sure any higher listed DPS(+any stats) weapon within .2 speed of your MH will be better than a lvl 62 weapon. It's a matter of choosing your available offhands and testing/simulating to see which performs the best.
#6021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Nemaa
Here is the result of two simulation with Yo's using my stats. The left one is 2xSyphon, the right one is 2xVengeful weapon. Vengeful weapons beat Syphons with 20 DPS.
#6022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dindi
Malan, would it be possible for you to place a new section pointing out when new updated information in your post is made? Perhaps just highlighting particular sections in your contents with a new colour to indicate a change in that particular section such as a blue for changes made in the last week and green for changes made in the last month?

While I completely re-read your post every few weeks or so, to make sure I see all new content you place in it, I find that I come into this particular forum to read the new post more then anything else. Its pretty easy to see that the new graph for weapon speed is a new addition, but the last paragraph in the haste section could easily be missed on a quick look over. If I could see something saying "Hey this particular part of Malan's original post has now changed and you should read it as its pretty important" it would be great.
#6023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Paradox
Originally Posted by Dindi
Malan, would it be possible for you to place a new section pointing out when new updated information in your post is made? Perhaps just highlighting particular sections in your contents with a new colour to indicate a change in that particular section such as a blue for changes made in the last week and green for changes made in the last month?

While I completely re-read your post every few weeks or so, to make sure I see all new content you place in it, I find that I come into this particular forum to read the new post more then anything else. Its pretty easy to see that the new graph for weapon speed is a new addition, but the last paragraph in the haste section could easily be missed on a quick look over. If I could see something saying "Hey this particular part of Malan's original post has now changed and you should read it as its pretty important" it would be great.
I've been meaning to comment on this too, highlighting which topics have been updated would be great.
#6024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Embar
Originally Posted by Aspartem
Well, its me again.. The Enhancer is still bugging around for God sake..
Everytime i try to copy+paste the String into the Addon the following Message appears: "Some AEP values was not included, please check the following AEP Values (Stamina, Resilience, WeaponExpertise, OhDps, MhDps).
I regularly see that message myself. If you check your AEP values manually you should find that they were still input and should be working. The error message only means that the original string did not touch on values such as Stamina and Resilience.

By the way - don't sign your posts, we can see your profile.
#6025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0◊ Malan
Yah I'm just lazy. I'll try to do that, I added a section at the bottom for it.
#6026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Yah I'm just lazy. I'll try to do that, I added a section at the bottom for it.
#6027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Paradox
What are your AEP values? I'd like to test and see if my Enhancer isn't bugging or something.
AEP Values used:

AP: 1
Crit: 1.99
Hit: 1.8
Haste: 1.8
-Armor: 0.37
Strength: 2.2
Agility: 1.93
Expertise: 3.26

(including BoK ofcourse)

[Softstep Boots of Tracking] - 210.45 AEP
[Shadowmaster's Boots] + 2x[Bold Crimson Spinel] - 225.66 AEP

Bigger difference than last time I checked ;I. Have to rerun the sim a couple of times to get an average again though, only ran it once to check up on the new AEP values since I got a few upgrades since the last time I ran it.
#6028SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Raut
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah I'm just lazy. I'll try to do that, I added a section at the bottom for it.
Commit a changelog as a post at the end of this thread. So we can be lazy instead!
#6029SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
Concerning IV) Windfury mechanics there is following paragraph:

The attack power bonus from Windfury is not reduced by the 50% OH damage penalty from Dual Wielding.
StormStrike and Windfury are not normalized - their damage will increase with slower weapons.


-----------------------------------------------------------

SS is not normalised, WF is more complicated. Without 3 second cooldown WF itself would be normalised due to flat proc rate. Even then altough there would be small preference to slow weapons due to SS being able to proc WF. WF totem however is totally normalised as far as i know now that yellow attacks can't proc it anymore.


Also concerning the comparison to WF totem, it would be nice to note WF is 2 yellow attacks that do not have DW miss penalty and can not glance.
#6030SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah I'm just lazy. I'll try to do that, I added a section at the bottom for it.
Originally Posted by Illundai
AEP Values used:

AP: 1
Crit: 1.99
Hit: 1.8
Haste: 1.8
-Armor: 0.37
Strength: 2.2
Agility: 1.93
Expertise: 3.26

(including BoK ofcourse)

[Softstep Boots of Tracking] - 210.45 AEP
[Shadowmaster's Boots] + 2x[Bold Crimson Spinel] - 225.66 AEP

Bigger difference than last time I checked ;I. Have to rerun the sim a couple of times to get an average again though, only ran it once to check up on the new AEP values since I got a few upgrades since the last time I ran it.

Strange I did the math again for Shadow masters boots :

30 x 1.93 = 57.9
17 x 1.99 = 33.83
76 x 1.00 = 76
20 x 2.2 = 44

Net Gain = 211.73 EP

However if you switch the yellow socket with a 5str/5crit you gain 3 Crit from the socket bonus so the math changes a bit :

Raw = 167.73 EP
15 x 2.2 = 33 EP
8 x 1.99 = 15.92 EP

Net gain = 216.65 EP.

Even thought they are a very slight upgrade over softstep boots... they provide 38 stamina over them which in my own opinion is an upgrade on it's own with all of the random AOE damge we are seeing in boss fights.

Last edited by Bragor : 01/04/08 at 6:46 AM.
#6031SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Binkenstein
The "Stamina Question" is one I neatly sidestep by allowing for a user-defined Stam value (usually 1/4 of the primary stat, so 0.25 in this case) so that you can take that sort of difference into account.
#6032SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Bragor
Strange I did the math again for Shadow masters boots :

30 x 1.93 = 57.9
17 x 1.99 = 33.83
76 x 1.00 = 76
20 x 2.2 = 44

Net Gain = 211.73 EP

However if you switch the yellow socket with a 5str/5crit you gain 3 Crit from the socket bonus so the math changes a bit :

Raw = 167.73 EP
15 x 2.2 = 33 EP
8 x 1.99 = 15.92 EP

Net gain = 216.65 EP.

Even thought they are a very slight upgrade over softstep boots... they provide 38 stamina over them which in my own opinion is an upgrade on it's own with all of the random AOE damge we are seeing in boss fights.
Hm, I have wrong stats noted for Shadowmaster's, so that might explain the difference T_T.
#6033SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
Originally Posted by Illundai
Hm, I have wrong stats noted for Shadowmaster's, so that might explain the difference T_T.
No problem.. I blame the new year
#6034SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0
Edited onundefined
Paradox
Originally Posted by Illundai
AEP Values used:

AP: 1
Crit: 1.99
Hit: 1.8
Haste: 1.8
-Armor: 0.37
Strength: 2.2
Agility: 1.93
Expertise: 3.26

(including BoK ofcourse)

[Softstep Boots of Tracking] - 210.45 AEP
[Shadowmaster's Boots] + 2x[Bold Crimson Spinel] - 225.66 AEP

Bigger difference than last time I checked ;I. Have to rerun the sim a couple of times to get an average again though, only ran it once to check up on the new AEP values since I got a few upgrades since the last time I ran it.
Thanks, I figured out the 'problem', enhancer was using only Rare gems, when i'm certain i've changed it to use Epic quality gems a while ago.. must have reset in an update or something, so keep an eye out for that.

And yeah, it is a very minor upgrade and only with epic gems, Softstep for me are 219.70 while Shadowmaster's are 220.00 so a very tiny upgrade at the least.

How is [Shoulderpads of the Stranger](220.80) looking to people over [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator](211.60)? With a Spinel, they're slightly better for me as you can see, is this the case for everyone, are these random SSC shoulders our ultimate shoulder item? Shame my guild doesn't do SSC anymore ;(

Thanks again.

Last edited by Paradox : 01/04/08 at 10:37 AM.
#6035SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Atren
SS is not normalised, WF is more complicated. Without 3 second cooldown WF itself would be normalised due to flat proc rate. Even then altough there would be small preference to slow weapons due to SS being able to proc WF. WF totem however is totally normalised as far as i know now that yellow attacks can't proc it anymore.
You completely missed the mark at what 'normalized' means. Warrior Arms/Fury instant attacks for example, are normalized. Various ranges of weapon speeds are all assigned a "default" speed for the basis of the attack. If you have a weapon that is way slower than the normalized value, it does *nothing* to increase the damage of the attack. If you have one that is slightly faster, you actually benefit a little on the instant attack.

Windfury and SS on the other hand are not tied to a default speed for calculation, they use exactly whatever speed your weapon is.
#6036SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ castille
Originally Posted by Paradox
Thanks, I figured out the 'problem', enhancer was using only Rare gems, when i'm certain i've changed it to use Epic quality gems a while ago.. must have reset in an update or something, so keep an eye out for that.

And yeah, it is a very minor upgrade and only with epic gems, Softstep for me are 219.70 while Shadowmaster's are 220.00 so a very tiny upgrade at the least.

How is [Shoulderpads of the Stranger](220.80) looking to people over [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator](211.60)? With a Spinel, they're slightly better for me as you can see, is this the case for everyone, are these random SSC shoulders our ultimate shoulder item? Shame my guild doesn't do SSC anymore ;(

Thanks again.
For my money, I tend to look at it like this: you can socket for more AP, more strength, more crit, more hit, more *. You can't socket expertise or armor pen (and a couple of other stats, as well). Shoulderpads of the Stranger are one of the few items that offer good DPS stats along with a hard-to-obtain stat.
#6037SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Originally Posted by Paradox
How is [Shoulderpads of the Stranger](220.80) looking to people over [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator](211.60)? With a Spinel, they're slightly better for me as you can see, is this the case for everyone, are these random SSC shoulders our ultimate shoulder item? Shame my guild doesn't do SSC anymore ;(

Thanks again.
Due to rounding problems, those expertise items one for one aren't that good as it seems on the first view.

[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]

35 agility
10 strength
16 critical strike rating
8 expertise rating (assuming 1 expertise rating = 0.2536 expertise)
60 attack power

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
29 agility
20 strength
24 expertise rating
74 attack power

Using my following ep values
str 2,2 str
agi 1,86
stam 0
int 0
crit 1,92
hit 1,77
ap 1
haste 1,95
arp 0,3
er 3,39


So, hydross shoulderpads are only a 5 ep upgrade over the najentus ones. If you don't have them, don't worry about it. Most upgrades from good to superior items are in range of 15-25 ep (excluding illidan helmet, archimonde chest and vashj belt).

To the stamina question:
I'm actually playing around with about 11.000 hitpoints and i noticed the situations in our clears the last two ids when i was under 1.000 or .500 hitpoints and it happend "often". I won't really feel quite comfortable with only 10.000 hitpoints or even less.

For my situation, "upgrading" from
[Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] > [Softstep Boots of Tracking] -27 stam
[Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver] > [Syphon of the Nathrezim] -27 stam (maybe two!)
[Choker of Serrated Blades] > [Choker of Endless Nightmares] -37 stam
[Belt of Deep Shadow] > [Boneweave Girdle] -14 stam
[Band of the Eternal Champion] > [Signet of Primal Wrath] -13 stam

Over 1.000 hp difference even without kings.

Only way to wear all those non stamina items would be wearing 4 piece t6 for the huge amount of stamina on them. But with zero tier 6, i struggle.
#6038SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
I run at 10k health buffed and have no problems in T6 content. Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake. Boneweave girdle is hunter gear, skip it and use something like the Shadow Walkers Cord.
#6039SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Malan
I run at 10k health buffed and have no problems in T6 content. Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake. Boneweave girdle is hunter gear, skip it and use something like the Shadow Walkers Cord.
Actually, Boneweave Girdle comes out quite nicely with highend EP values, about 30 EP more then the belt from Anetheron, I plan on using it once I replace my boots with Shadowwalkers. I've got to concur that running around at 10k health is plenty for all the T6 content, though I sometimes wish there'd be more stamina on the gear when things go really really bad.
#6040SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Unaz
For people asking about Lootzor, check out Lootrank. Same concept, but has current items, and a couple other little features. Matches gems by stats/slot bonus as well.

Although as I make this post, the site seems to be offline with an ASP error, hopefully it should be back soon.
#6041SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by Atren
SS is not normalised, WF is more complicated. Without 3 second cooldown WF itself would be normalised due to flat proc rate. Even then altough there would be small preference to slow weapons due to SS being able to proc WF. WF totem however is totally normalised as far as i know now that yellow attacks can't proc it anymore.
"Normalized" has a very specific meaning in WoW. It does not mean that an ability's DPS does not scale with weapon speed -- MS is normalized, but it still does somewhat more damage with slower weapons. What it means is that the ability calculates the damage from AP based on a fixed weapon speed, rather than the speed of the actual weapon. This is not true for either WFW or WFT. For consistancy with other instant attacks SS probably should be normalized, but doing so would not have a meaningful effect on Enh Shaman gear choices or power level, so they've never bothered.
#6042SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Atren
I know what Normalization is and how it handle and i guess i wanted to point out WF by design is equal to all weapon speeds, just that 3 sec cooldown makes slow weapon better for it. Nevermind it :P
#6043SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Myul
i noticed the situations in our clears the last two ids when i was under 1.000 or .500 hitpoints and it happend "often"
And how much of this was this due to spot healers holding out until you were severely hurt before issuing heals? I think you'd see about the same affect with 13k or 9k health.

Everybody has to set their own limits...when I first started running Kara & Heroics I was successful with just over 6k health. Now I'm at 7500. I still take the same amount of damage, take the same amount of heals and need to be just as careful with threat to avoid being two-shot by a boss. All I've really added is the ability to pursue content where AOEs doing 7k damage are common. Outside of such content, if I could peel off 50 stamina and gain 10 AP, I'd do so in a heartbeat -- in fact, I have an 8k health suit that is more or less a 10 AP nerf and I never wear it.

Also, you're using the Greater Than symbol like an arrow. It doesn't do that. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] > [Softstep Boots of Tracking] to me means "Nyn'jah's are better than the Softstep."
#6044SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Atren
WF by design is equal to all weapon speeds, just that 3 sec cooldown makes slow weapon better for it.
For almost a year, the 3s cooldown has been PART of the Windfury design, as is the 36% proc rate. If it wasn't, we would have a very different class -- we'd still be aiming for slow weapons, but it wouldn't be as important and would be more likely that the other stats on a weapon would offset its speed. We'd also be stacking Haste like it was going out of style.
#6045SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Bragor
I am running around with 8k UB hp at the moment & I am doing fine in end game content. But, I keep my pvp gear near me to switch the a few pieces when I need a bit more stamina on certin boss fights.. namely Archie/Council where I hit 10k UB easily.

Like our raid leader always says : "A Dead DPS is no DPS".
#6046SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grzzt
Hey brothers and sisters, I've been trying to use Yo's sim at Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo for a few weeks now, but I simply cannot get it to load. I've tried three browsers (Mac Firefox 2, Mac Safari 3, and Windows IE 7) and get Java applet errors each time. (The exact error message is "load: class NewJApplet not found.") From the sounds of it, the site is working for most people, so I'm assuming it's something on my end. Suggestions on how to get the site working would be great. Thanks!
#6047SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Toots Hepcat
Grzzt -- you have encountered my only problem with Yo's sim, which is that it requires Java 1.6. (Seems silly to me; shouldn't take much effort to make it compatible with 1.5 but it's not my code).

Java 1.6 is available in beta for Mac, but I have yet to get it to work correctly under 10.5 (possibly because I haven't reboot since the 10.5.1 update). So I run it under Firefox for windows on a machine with more java runtimes than you can shake a stick at, including the latest 1.6.

The browser you run it on is of little consequence.
#6048SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Dekkan
Originally Posted by Malan
Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake.
Is this because of the proc on Syphon? I rate S2 weapons higher than Syphon in both the MH and the OH despite them being less weapon DPS, but I don't give any value to the Syphon proc because I'm not sure how to rate it.
#6049SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Rhagok
I really don´t think you have to rate the proc to see them being far superior, just run Yo´s Sim and you will see. It was no discussion for me at all and btw the stat changes aren´t that great anyway, you are gaining 20 AP per weapon with SON´s and are loosing 10 hit and 19 crit, which should be about 45 AEP so it´s 25 AEP more on the S2 wepons ... that should be easily surpassable with the greater damage and slower speed
#6050SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Dekkan
Is this because of the proc on Syphon? I rate S2 weapons higher than Syphon in both the MH and the OH despite them being less weapon DPS, but I don't give any value to the Syphon proc because I'm not sure how to rate it.
The proc is just for kicks I guess. It did like 5,000 dmg over a full hyjal clear I think, its not a big deal. The syphons and rising tide have higher DPS though, raising the average damage done.
#6051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Myul
Originally Posted by Malan
I run at 10k health buffed and have no problems in T6 content. Keeping the S2 weapons over a Syphon just because of the stamina would be a pretty big mistake. Boneweave girdle is hunter gear, skip it and use something like the Shadow Walkers Cord.
[Shadow-walker's Cord] is for me actually one EP better than [Belt of Deep Shadow] beside the stamina gain, i can't spend my dkp on this.
Boneweave is better than Don Alejandro's by a remarkable margin. Only vashj could compete (and beat it).

I won't keep my S2 weapon if i'm able to pick up a syphon, but picking up all items without stamina would bring me into some serious problems.
Showing up that's our raid is lacking campheal won't fix my the problem for me.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Also, you're using the Greater Than symbol like an arrow. It doesn't do that. [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] > [Softstep Boots of Tracking] to me means "Nyn'jah's are better than the Softstep."
Ahh, should be "Upgrading from x to y". An arrow like -> would have been better, i guess.
#6052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0death_Phobos
Something i would like to see on the Main Page

-New Trinket AEP Ranking using T6 Values
-New Meta Gem AEP using T6 Values
-A Final Sentence/decision, at wich point, or if ever Executioner > Mungo
#6076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Grzzt
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Grzzt -- you have encountered my only problem with Yo's sim, which is that it requires Java 1.6.
Ahh, ok, thanks for the clarification! Unfortunately I'm stuck on OS X 10.4 for the foreseeable future. The weird thing is that the "Windows" build I was trying was actually Parallels. My image does indeed have Java 1.6 installed, but Yo's site still doesn't work, so I'm assuming it's some weirdness with Parallels.

In any case, I can run the site just fine on a genuine Windows box. Thanks!
#6077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Fearlezz
I think we should wait till 2.4 when Blizz is gonna chance combat log mechanics so we can include totems in our damage too. But still, even now as enhc/restro spec shocks are around 10% of my damage (average, varies from 8-12% depending on the fight, really have no idea about my totem damage)
#6078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Acks
Originally Posted by Malan
The proc is just for kicks I guess. It did like 5,000 dmg over a full hyjal clear I think, its not a big deal. The syphons and rising tide have higher DPS though, raising the average damage done.
Sorry to resurrect this post, but I've been curious about the Syphon proc since I won this mace. I sometimes see procs for up to 42 leeched HP. I know it is shadow damage and thus buffed by shadoweaving, misery, etc, but 42? Thats more than 2x the original proc.

Here's our WWS from last night: Gnipgnop - WWS (please don't freak out at my dps. I completely overhauled my UI and it was a lot more difficult to manage than I anticipated :P)
#6079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Ilmatar
Comments on WoWHead indicate it's a 20dmg proc, effected by debuffs.
Your averages were 24 on Trash, 25 on Supremus and Teron, 26 on High Warlord, and a whopping 35 on Shade.

I am guessing that you hit the 42 on somewhere Shade, and that the proc can crit, getting +50% of the effect damage. That's where the 42 came from, probably a 34dmg proc that crit.
#6080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0testthewest
About Elemental spec....

I didnt find any satisfying reasons as to why Ele/Enh is worse than Resto/Enh.

Asuming just from the Enhance tree w/o any other points spend:
white dmg 40%
WF 35%
SS 15%
Shocks 10%

Restotree: +3 hit to melee/spells:
40% * 1,03 = 41,2% (the hit will increase the white dmg for about 3%)
35% * (1+(0,8*0,03) = 35,84% (about every fifth hit is from SS, so we have 2,4% more hits to procc WF)
15% = 15% (SS is capped w/o restotree)
10% * 1,03 = 10,3% (Shocks will hit 3% more)

41,2+35,84+15+10,3= 102,34% compared to nothing but Enh-tree


Eletree: +5% shockdmg, *20% faster CD
90% will be unchanced
10% *1,05*1,2=12,6

90% +12,6= 102,6% compared to only Enh-tree.

If you factor crit in both examples (which I'm to lazy for, since point is proven fr me now), the impact of crit will lessen even more, since in a one-roll system it wont raise the dps by one 1%.


Please prove me wrong, or help me to find a post in this overly huge thread which shows me better math (than my bad try at it).
#6081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Malan
Please take the Elem vs Resto discussion to the newly created thread for that purpose. That way we can restrict such discussion there so that people actually have a searchable/readable reference point for it.
#6082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
Hiya,

Something not mentioned in the relic slot section in the first post is the possibility of using both Stonebreaker's and Astral Wind Totems.

Why not macro /equip Stonebreaker's Totem before all your shocks, and then use another macro to immediately reequip Astral Winds? To make it super easy you could just bind /equip Totem of the Astral Winds to Stormstrike (since you're spamming the button regularly anyway).

I'd like to know if there's some problem with it before I start farming heroic mana tombs
#6083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0david0925
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
Hiya,

Something not mentioned in the relic slot section in the first post is the possibility of using both Stonebreaker's and Astral Wind Totems.

Why not macro /equip Stonebreaker's Totem before all your shocks, and then use another macro to immediately reequip Astral Winds? To make it super easy you could just bind /equip Totem of the Astral Winds to Stormstrike (since you're spamming the button regularly anyway).

I'd like to know if there's some problem with it before I start farming heroic mana tombs
Swapping totems causes global cooldown as well as swing time reset (This one im not sure), so it may actually be counterproductive
#6084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Simian LeSinge
Equipping relics doesn't trigger the GCD indicator on Quartz, but I did notice there was a pause when trying this out (equipping Totem of Healing Rains for Chain Heal). It's definitely a full GCD and swing reset then?

Spamming SS/Shock buttons a second before cooldowns are up would resolve that to some extent. But it depends how much GCD juggling you're doing at the time I suppose.
#6085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Acks
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
Equipping relics doesn't trigger the GCD indicator on Quartz, but I did notice there was a pause when trying this out (equipping Totem of Healing Rains for Chain Heal). Spamming SS/Shock buttons a second before cooldowns are up would resolve that to some extent. But it depends how much GCD juggling you're doing at the time I suppose.
Swapping relics works quite well for spell casting when there is a cast time involved (healing spells), but relic swapping doesn't work with instant casts in my experience.
#6086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Aknazer
Something I just noticed is that if my attacks land at the same time and neither crits then it only eats 1 flurry charge. Also if only 1 crits then it refreshes flurry to 3 and the other attack doesn't eat a charge (generally its assumed that when both hit at the same time the first attack is registered first, followed by the OH. Here if the MH crit the OH doesn't eat a flurry charge even though it's after the crit). Although if you manage to get your attacks to land at different times (I'm not exactly sure how it happens, but sometimes my attacks get out of synch even with same speed weapons) then it starts eating flurry charges normally.

Has anyone else noticed this behavior?
#6087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0mek
Yes, it's a well-known flurry bug (or "feature", it's been around a long time). As you've noticed it's difficult to control so it's hard to value the dps increase, but it is there.
#6088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0Blazingwater
I belive there's also a bug with it so if you crit on the last charge, it won't refresh flurry. Correct me if this has been fixed.
#6089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.0♦ Igniter
Originally Posted by testthewest
Please prove me wrong, or help me to find a post in this overly huge thread which shows me better math (than my bad try at it).
Prove it yourself for once. I've seen this question talked about at least five times in the thread. As you can imagine, most of the discussion would be near the part of the thread when we received talent changes.
#6090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
I belive there's also a bug with it so if you crit on the last charge, it won't refresh flurry. Correct me if this has been fixed.
Nope, still there. Is said to be scheduled for a fix in a "future" patch. T_T
#6091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Urstroyer
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
Hiya,

Something not mentioned in the relic slot section in the first post is the possibility of using both Stonebreaker's and Astral Wind Totems.

Why not macro /equip Stonebreaker's Totem before all your shocks, and then use another macro to immediately reequip Astral Winds? To make it super easy you could just bind /equip Totem of the Astral Winds to Stormstrike (since you're spamming the button regularly anyway).

I'd like to know if there's some problem with it before I start farming heroic mana tombs
You can switch the item in relict slot while casting a spell and works well for healing spells from my experience. Have anyone tried this already? Does the Stonebreaker Totem AP Buff stay if you switch back to Totem of Astral Winds and is the weapon swing timer affected?
#6092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Redback
You should probably add a mention of Lootrank - Its basically an updated version of Lootzor, with support for haste, expertise, and it doesn't seem to have lootzors irritating bugs, like gems that don't exist.
#6093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2mek
Originally Posted by Urstroyer
You can switch the item in relict slot while casting a spell and works well for healing spells from my experience. Have anyone tried this already? Does the Stonebreaker Totem AP Buff stay if you switch back to Totem of Astral Winds and is the weapon swing timer affected?
Any buff generated by an equipped item will be removed when that item is removed.
#6094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Simian LeSinge
Originally Posted by mek
Any buff generated by an equipped item will be removed when that item is removed.
Not true. Tested that with Stonebreaker's yesterday. Why attempt to shoot down ideas with incorrect assumptions?

edit - at least, the buff remained shown on the Blizz UI after switching Stonebreaker's out. Possibly the pic was there and the AP removed, I didn't check, but that doesn't sound right.

Double edit - Looking at the Feral druid thread stuff about switching relic slots, it looks like the swing timer reset would be the main issue with this. Does switching totem definitely reset swing timer? If so then it's likely david0259 is correct in saying it could well be counter-productive. Aw well, at least I won't have to farm mana tombs.

Last edited by Simian LeSinge : 01/08/08 at 12:05 PM.
#6095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mox
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
I belive there's also a bug with it so if you crit on the last charge, it won't refresh flurry. Correct me if this has been fixed.
I was pretty bored while clearing hyjal earlier in the week so watched my flurry buff for awhile and saw it tick down to 1 then back upto 3 on multiple occasions, don't have any logs though so could have been lag/multiple hits very close together.
#6096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Disquette
Can anyone tell me if DisqoDice watershield works? I forgot the patch was coming today until I read the thread in the public discussion forum (I haven't logged into wow for a couple weeks). So, I did the edits to the lua at my work computer and uploaded to curse, but I have no idea if I did them correctly or not since I can't test. I'd like to have the issue resolved before the big crunch comes when people get off of work/school this evening.
#6097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Originally Posted by Mox
I was pretty bored while clearing hyjal earlier in the week so watched my flurry buff for awhile and saw it tick down to 1 then back upto 3 on multiple occasions, don't have any logs though so could have been lag/multiple hits very close together.
I checked it out just today in ZA and it was still bugging for me. Crit on the last charge did not refresh Flurry T_T.
#6098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
I know I've said this in this thread...

Equipping a totem will trigger the GCD, but does not depend on the GCD. This means that a macro like so:
/cast Healing Wave
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
Will result in a Healing Wave, cast with the benefit of Totem of Healing Rains with one button. However:
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
/cast Healing Wave
Will equip the totem, trigger the GCD, and prevent Healing Wave from being cast.

Making a macro like this:
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
/cast Flame Shock
Will not work.

Now it may be interesting to set it up like so:

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
Obviously the 6 (or 5)s cooldown on shocks would mean you are getting off more shocks than SS so the rotation doesn't work out neatly. That's the only way it would work out w/ GCD's though.
#6099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Redback
Originally Posted by Disquette
Can anyone tell me if DisqoDice watershield works? I forgot the patch was coming today until I read the thread in the public discussion forum (I haven't logged into wow for a couple weeks). So, I did the edits to the lua at my work computer and uploaded to curse, but I have no idea if I did them correctly or not since I can't test. I'd like to have the issue resolved before the big crunch comes when people get off of work/school this evening.

Admittedly I had never used your mod before today, but I installed the new version and it seems to work fine.
#6100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2cerberos
Hello all,

I pretty confused as the last days 2 very good drops, dropped for me

At first, we did a Zul Aman Raid and dropped [Fury]. I put on it Executioner and have it. Then some hous ago, we did a farm raid on Al'ar, and [Netherbane] dropped. I couldnt leave it so i took it too...
Now my other weapon, is [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]. On it i have Mongoose.

As i read in the first post, Merciless > Fury. So according to first post, i have to use Merciless + Netherbane as offhand. Is that true really? I am pretty confused of what weapons to play, from these 3

Ps

Some say that having executioner in Offhand, is not so good. Do u agree on this statement? As Netherbane have executioner and merciless Mongoose.

Ty in advance, ok i dont complain they are very good loots for my level atm, (although the dkp cost is enormous !!)
#6101SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2cerberos
Ty for your fast reply indeed.

I see. So fury in the bank

Because of the fury that have a red gem, (which i put 16 ap), i lost also around to 15 ap with this combination.

Anyway, do you know if the executioner is on Offhand, i have any problems?
#6102SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
#6103SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Paradox
Originally Posted by Illundai
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
Would also like a conclusion to this as i'm in the same boat here.
#6104SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
I would use Fury over S2 Gladiator Offhand. Weighing in the weapon stats, I think that Fury edges out S2 by a small margin. Executioner is also what I'd put on it Grats.
#6105SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhagok
He uses S2 in the MH.

And concerning the MH - OH discussion on Execuctioner. I still think that the Mainhand is the favorable hand to have it on, because the hit that does proc the enchant does not benefit from it, so having it on the OH means your MH will be the first to profit from the Exec proc. and that is a good thing ^^
#6106SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2vorda
Originally Posted by Rhagok
He uses S2 in the MH.

And concerning the MH - OH discussion on Execuctioner. I still think that the Mainhand is the favorable hand to have it on, because the hit that does proc the enchant does not benefit from it, so having it on the OH means your MH will be the first to profit from the Exec proc. and that is a good thing ^^
I assume you mean 'offhand'?
#6107SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Disquette
Can anyone tell me if DisqoDice watershield works? I forgot the patch was coming today until I read the thread in the public discussion forum (I haven't logged into wow for a couple weeks). So, I did the edits to the lua at my work computer and uploaded to curse, but I have no idea if I did them correctly or not since I can't test. I'd like to have the issue resolved before the big crunch comes when people get off of work/school this evening.
It works but since the water shield now lasts 10 minutes I would suggest that you really don't need the blue bar up the entire time its active. Might be better just to have a red blinking bar when its off or something.
#6108SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
tzenes
Originally Posted by Ilmatar

Now it may be interesting to set it up like so:

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
Obviously the 6 (or 5)s cooldown on shocks would mean you are getting off more shocks than SS so the rotation doesn't work out neatly. That's the only way it would work out w/ GCD's though.
Tried this out, it does NOT work. 0 Stonebreaker Totem procs off flame shock.

However, if you do just the opposite

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
It does proc off of flame shock.

Despite the order, it seems as though the totem will effect whatever ability it is equiped after.

Please confirm this.

Last edited by tzenes : 01/08/08 at 11:03 PM.
#6109SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Binkenstein
The reason that it works for casting is that it is equipped when the spell is cast.

I think Ilmatar was trying to set up macros that equipped the totem for the next action, rather than the current one.

In either case though, I think it'll be a bit hard to manage efficently.
#6110SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Disquette
Originally Posted by Malan
It works but since the water shield now lasts 10 minutes I would suggest that you really don't need the blue bar up the entire time its active. Might be better just to have a red blinking bar when its off or something.
Thanks very much Malan! You can actually do that on your own by setting the alpha level to .01 (or maybe 0 works). I forget how I wrote it, but I'm pretty sure I put in the facility for people to turn it off when watershield was active, and only display full red when you don't have the buff.
#6111SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Birr
I am feeling incredibly weak as an enhancement shaman. I have read the first post, taken notes, and considered the aspects of my class and role before beginning to gear myself. I have been using Enhancer with my personal AEP values and Pawn with the Low Raid values to determine upgrades and gear choices. The problems comes down to the fact that I do not put out nearly the same amount of DPS as other melee DPS in my Kara raid group; unfortunately I cannot discover the true heart of the problem.

I think that it is either, 1) My off-hand weapon is so horrible that it is ruining my overall DPS; or 2) My hit rating is in fact too high and I have neglected the importance of Strength/AP and Crit.

Considering the first point I am currently using [Fist of Reckoning] as an off-hand. I know, I know, I can hear the groans now, but I have had extremely horrible luck in the level 70 instances, and I feel too weak to attempt a heroic or even find a group for one. My goal is to finish grinding out the honor for [Gladiator's Pummeler] so that I will be wielding two of them. I am hesitant to enchant either weapon before I know it will be worth the focus and money I am going to spend. I am incredibly confused because Enhancer is showing that the Pummeler is great for MH but I will get more benefit from [Fool's Bane] in OH. Is this because Fool's has more passive stats and Enhancer is ignoring the DPS difference?

For point two I simply think my hit rating is too high and have a negative effect on my DPS. I'm at 200 hit + 9% from talents but my Attack Power and Crit Rating seem to be suffering. I hit often but I hit for very little. Is this a combined problem between my weapon quality and my hit rating?

I am not asking for a gear check & personalized advice, but my guild has made it to Aran in Kara and I feel that I pale in comparison to our DPS warrior. I bring buffs to the table for him but I think my lackluster DPS is a huge detriment.
#6112SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Atren
OH difference is less than 2 dps which makes it so small difference once you also add AP to it. The stats on Fool are way better and therefor it is better weapon than S1 gladiator for OH. If you have Fool's you can use it over S1, but it is one of those will it drop and will i get it things.
#6113SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
xereva
I am feeling incredibly weak as an enhancement shaman.
You should focus now on AP/str and crit/agi i think. Try to get them some higher.

A nice craftable item which is a good upgrade is for example [Shadowprowler's Chestguard].
A [Gladiator's Pummeler] in your offhand would be great (and don't count on one specific drop to happen...) I would advice to enchant both with mongoose (yes, it is expensive...).

Also focus on you other enchants. Your bracers are 'missing' +12 str, your helm is 'missing' + [Glyph of Ferocity] (34 ap, 16 hit), you legs could use [Cobrahide Leg Armor] (40 ap, 10 crit), you shoulders can use [Inscription of Vengeance] (26 ap), you cloak can user the +12 agi enchant, you chest the +6 to all stats enchant, etc.

So just with good enchanting you can get like 24+ 34 + 40+ 26 + 12 = 136 ap and some crit (and hit).

So don't underestimate the use of good enchants...

Last edited by xereva : 01/09/08 at 4:48 AM.
#6114SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
If you cant get epic red gem [Netherbane] is better than [Fury] for my stat weights(I weight wDPS too. 0.85* 4.24ep for off hand) And dont bother with executioner before you get very high end gear. Its very easy to test with Yo's sim which one is better.(waepons or enchants)

Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/09/08 at 9:59 AM.
#6115SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2adlwow
Originally Posted by Birr
I am hesitant to enchant either weapon before I know it will be worth the focus and money I am going to spend.
Crusader is a pretty inexpensive enchant - under 100g for the mats on my server. Being a bit thrifty I've used that as a temporary enchant while waiting for better weapon to drop (but I didn't bother with enchants at all on blue weapons). Your hit is pretty high - you could try for a different trinket to replace the +hit one. Your dps will improve dramatically as you continue to raid and gain upgrades, just hang in there!
#6116SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Prost
Birr,
I struggled the same way when my guild was in your spot. As Adlwow said, crusader is an easy enchant to farm mats for and get on both weapons. Also, look into getting the Hourglass of the Unraveler from the second boss in Black Morass. When I finally got it, I was noticing a huge DPS increase from the three procs (at least at that point in content). Hope that helps.
#6117SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Birr
Originally Posted by Prost
Birr,
I struggled the same way when my guild was in your spot. As Adlwow said, crusader is an easy enchant to farm mats for and get on both weapons. Also, look into getting the Hourglass of the Unraveler from the second boss in Black Morass. When I finally got it, I was noticing a huge DPS increase from the three procs (at least at that point in content). Hope that helps.
Thank you for the replies, everyone! I'm 2/3 finished crafting the Ebon Netherscale set, all I have left is the chest piece so my funds will be going in to gems and enchants for that; Crusader looks like it will be my best bet until I am able to spend the money on Mongoose. Gear > Epic Flying in my case.

And yeah that hit trinket definitely needs to go. Temporus should be going down a lot more often as I help other people get keyed for Kara. /fingercross
#6118SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Delita
Originally Posted by Birr
I am incredibly confused because Enhancer is showing that the Pummeler is great for MH but I will get more benefit from [Fool's Bane] in OH.

That point is moot since Fool's Bane is MH only.

I had this same issue in Kara until I could obtain enough Primal Nethers for my 1Hed Axe I made from smithing.

Shamans have very little in weapon choices from PvE content until Al'ar and Netherbane (Your hunters will hate you btw) or conversely Rage/Fury from ZA. Your best bet is too keep trying for that S1 Pummeler and as was mentioned earlier, Crusader is a very easy enchant to buy, especially if you know someone that farms LBSes for the AH.
#6119SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
[Fool's Bane] and [The Decapitator] isn't mh only or unique anymore. Item link lies.
Thottbot World of Warcraft: Fool's Bane
Thottbot World of Warcraft: The Decapitator
#6120SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Delita
An interesting note I didn't know about, thanks for that.
#6121SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Simian LeSinge
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Tzenes
However, if you do just the opposite

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Stonebreaker Totem

and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Totem of Astral Winds

It does proc off of flame shock.
The reason that it works for casting is that it is equipped when the spell is cast.

I think Ilmatar was trying to set up macros that equipped the totem for the next action, rather than the current one.

In either case though, I think it'll be a bit hard to manage efficently.
How exactly do you mean "manage efficiently"?

If the totem equipping works as Tzenes states, then no thought is required on the part of the shammy to have stonebreaker equip for every shock, and to have increased WF damage for at least some of the rest of the time. All it takes is to macro the equips to your shocks and SS.

The main issue I can see with this at the moment is the possibility of it resetting the swing timer.
#6122SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Sufferings
Originally Posted by Illundai
Did anyone reach a final conclusion on the uptime of Dragonstrike? We finally got another Rising Tide this week which I picked up and I'd like to compare the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the sim provides an unreasonable uptime for the proc. At the moment I'm not convinced RT/Syphon is better than my previous DS/Syphon... so, does anyone have an more accurate uptime?
I am also interested in this,...I used dragonstrike/syphon currently. I am not so much concerned with the uptime of the haste proc as I am with the difference in the speed of it being 2.7, RT 2.6 and Syphon 2.8. Right now, it seems like I get slightly more OH procs than MH procs for WF with the dragonstrike. I have heard that having RT main hand will give you more MH WF procs, but this is something I want to hear about before burning dkp on both the RT and another Syphon.

Anyways, my dps can be very sporadic because of this. For something like Terron Gorefiend, I will range from 1100 to 1500 dps week to week, without any real gear changes and in the same group with the same group setup.

So ya, anyone here go from a dragonstrike to a RT and/or Syphon MH with preferably a Syphon OH?
#6123SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Durigen
If you feel your DPS is weak...

1) As was said early, get your enchants. They can and will make a huge difference.

Beyond that your hit could use to be cut in half, and that will award you a sizeable increase in AP and Crit. Don't worry about getting 'rogue' or 'feral' gear either. If your getting hit, your not doing your job right anyway (and if your DPS is so low you worry, then your not causing enough threat to pull aggro). Get the items that will maximize your role in the group DPS/Support. Also, watch your attack cycle. Alot of Enhancement Shamans seem to miss the standard rotation.

Stormstrike then Earth Shock, then Flame Shock. Rinse and repeat. Make certain your Earth Shock is taking advantage of the Stormstrike debuff, and your not wasting a charge of it using Flame Shock. Or conversely, if you don't have a raid with Curse of Elements, you can just keep an ES cycle between Stormstrikes.

You might want to look into some of the craftables too, just going into/conquering karazhan means that Drakefist/Dragonmaw is very very good mainhand for you (same with the axe equivalent). It takes a ton of work, granted, but I haven't even looked at another mainhand since I got mine. The haste procc (especially with 'on hit' trinkets like the Hourglass) can be huge.

Also, even if this doesn't help as much as you would wish. Remember the reason that DPS warrior is doing so well, is you
#6124SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
If the totem equipping works as Tzenes states, then no thought is required on the part of the shammy to have stonebreaker equip for every shock, and to have increased WF damage for at least some of the rest of the time. All it takes is to macro the equips to your shocks and SS.
That only works for spells with a cast time, as the totem equips *while* the spell is casting. For shocks, the totem won't equip in time to effect it, or will lag your shock while it is equipping beforehand. You could concievably micro it by mashing an equip macro when you have 2 seconds left on your shock, shocking, and then unequipping. But it's really not worth it, and would likely hurt your dps by messing with your GCDs a bit.
#6125SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bluhd Wuhlf
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.

I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway.

I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point.
#6126SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bluhd Wuhlf
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.

I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway.

I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point.
#6127SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Daler
Originally Posted by Bluhd Wuhlf
Dont forget the S1 gear is now available through honor and is reasonably easy/fast to get. It is a good jump start for kara as well.

I have had some bad luck on weapon drops, so am using a Emerald Ripper OH still with flametongue (I decided to get my S1 armor b4 a weapon). I have Dragonstrike as MH. My dps could definately be better, but isnt bad. So dont even though you know a slow OH is your goal, dont be afraid to take a kara dagger, especially if its just going to be sharded anyway.

I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value). I guess I made my goal as more of a support role, than trying to top the dps charts at this point.
As melee DPS, your weapon will have a greater impact on your DPS output than any other gear slot. Your OH should be the very next thing you upgrade.
#6128SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Areus
@Yo! - In one of your next Sim updates, would it be possible to include the Ret pally buffs in the Buffs/Debuffs tab. 3% crit to target with spells/melee from JoTC and Imp Sanctity Aura for 2% more raw damage.

My guild is currently running with a retPally instead of a druid in the melee group and would like to know if you can create checkboxes for thier buffs to the group as well.

Both are easy enough to just manually input into the proper windows. This is just a request.
#6129SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
Stonebreaker totem has a hidden cooldown of 10s, so it's possible that we could get benefit from using the macros I proposed (probably needs some tweeking). I've got farming tonight so, if I remember, I can give it a try since I have a good history of WWS data. I'll look for a drop in Stonebreaker uptime.
#6130SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Unaz
That only works for spells with a cast time, as the totem equips *while* the spell is casting. For shocks, the totem won't equip in time to effect it, or will lag your shock while it is equipping beforehand. You could concievably micro it by mashing an equip macro when you have 2 seconds left on your shock, shocking, and then unequipping. But it's really not worth it, and would likely hurt your dps by messing with your GCDs a bit.
Exactly. It'd be interesting to see if equipping a totem resets your swing timer as well (IIRC it does) which means you're reducing white damage as well.
#6131SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2T.K.
Malan - The hole AEP system is calculated generating weights to stats that we should look after considering the current gear we already have, right?

The end-game AEP weights were generated by Sebudai, considering the best gear currently in game in every slot or close to, so wouldn't that AEP weights be for the next level of gear, like Sunwell gear or alike? Shouldn't we get a set of gear around T6 content but not as good as top-end gear to calculate it more accuratly? I mean, wouldn't accounting the AEP for T6 helm or Forest Prowler be more accurate then using Cursed stats?


Yo - Not sure if it's a issue, but does your sim consider overlapping CDs? Like, when SS and shock get's CD at the same second, does your sim account for the GCD it has to wait before using the second skill? Even if it does or does not account for it, i don't know if would make any real difference in the end result of DPS or AEP calculation, but that's something that just happened to me, so pointing it out...


Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about...
#6132SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bluhd Wuhlf
Daler - If I could go back in time I would. I figured with my guilds raid needs and setup, I would easily get a weapon before other gear. Unfortunately, zero of the offhand 2.6 speed weapons have dropped for me .... Currently working on arena points for the merciless axe. My point to Birr was more that temporarily a epic dagger from kara w/ flametongue is worth grabbing if nothing better has come along.
#6133SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by T.K.
Malan - The hole AEP system is calculated generating weights to stats that we should look after considering the current gear we already have, right?

The end-game AEP weights were generated by Sebudai, considering the best gear currently in game in every slot or close to, so wouldn't that AEP weights be for the next level of gear, like Sunwell gear or alike? Shouldn't we get a set of gear around T6 content but not as good as top-end gear to calculate it more accuratly? I mean, wouldn't accounting the AEP for T6 helm or Forest Prowler be more accurate then using Cursed stats?


Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about...
EP value systems are usually calculated on a "how much would I gain from another point in X" perspective, but refer to the values of your gear at the current point in time.

As such, if we use AEP values for T6 best-in-slot gear, we have the values we want to select upgrades on until we get up to that point. This means there will be another set of AEP values for Sunwell gear once it is released.

The second Enhancement shaman can go into a group like that, or the MT group. Either would be a decent use, although the AP buff does not affect RAP.
#6134SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2testthewest
T5 4er bonus worth it?

Hi,
I currently have equipped:

Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger

I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest.
Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry).

Is it worth the dmg-stat loss?
#6135SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
Somebody start baning people please seeing that nobody from the new comers is reading the first post.

P.S. Nice not even an armory link to see how your stat weights are calculated.
#6136SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by testthewest
Hi,
I currently have equipped:

Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger

I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest.
Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry).

Is it worth the dmg-stat loss?
Run both combos through Yo's sim!

At the least, you'll need to keep Shoulderpads around for after your break the 4-set bonus.
#6137SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Bluhd Wuhlf
I generally fall in at 6-7 on the dps charts. But more importantly, i try to stay alive. I am grouped with 4 rogues generally when we raid 25 mans, and my totems and Unleashed rage have made a huge difference for the overall raid dps. I count that as part of my dps (value).
No reason you can't be both top of the dps charts AND play the support role.

PvP gear is a ridiculous cakewalk grind, especially if you don't get all hung up about "winning." You should not, however, waste your honor on S1 armor with intent to use it in PvE. First upgrade your weapons, then get the Vindicator pendant and ring even if they don't seem like substantial upgrades -- these are both better than anything in T4, you'll keep them for a long time.

Drinking the right pots and eating the right food is easily worth an extra ~40 dps at any gear level. Enchant EVERYTHING with the best enchants. Use big boy gems, not vendor crap -- Fel Leather gear outperforms a lot of epics with the right gems.

Never been lucky at drops, myself -- I'm decked out in mostly craftables, PvP gear, badge and rep rewards. Last night I put out 1065 dps on the Bear boss in ZA.
#6138SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
Originally Posted by testthewest
Hi,
I currently have equipped:

Ranger-General's Chestguard and Shoulderpads of the Stranger

I ask myself if it would be worth it to chance those for T5 Shoulders and Chest.
Both are individually worse than the stuff I have equipped now, but wouzld unlock the 4set bonus (5% more to flurry).

Is it worth the dmg-stat loss?
Im in a similar position (just waiting on a champion helm token to drop), so I calculated the AEP of the additional flurry (5% * 80% uptime). Ive since thrown out my actualy calculations, but the results were very clear. There is no combination of tier5-level gear that is better than 4piece tier5. Even if you use the very weakest tier5 pieces (shoulders/pants/gloves) the 4piece is still better than the best offset gear available. That said you want to get both helm/chest as soon as possible and ditch the tier5 shoulders (which are truly awful) for the stranger shoulders.
#6139SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Elaxion
+ Weapon Damage and Ring Enchants for Shaman

Now this one might sound stupid but i really have no idea and i havent found a post on it, would 4+ weapon damage or 4+ all stats be a significant bonus for a enhancement shaman. i have a 2 trinkets, one from Kara Romulo's poison and Crystalforged Trinket from Reverd Ogrila Again with the + Weapon Damage. is There anyone that can lead me through this? i know Enhance Shammys need a little bit of everything but im not sure how this + damage adds up Compaired to other stats like + hit.
#6140SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
shdrex21
Dont know if people have suggested or tought of this but a friend of mine (Sengiratolom) and i have found a interesting way to twist the Totem of the Astral Winds and the Stonebreaker's Totem to attempt improve dps by an certain amount.
As totems can now be switched in combat using the following macros to A) Equip the Stonebreaker's Totem whenever the shaman shocks. And B) After the shock clicking on the Stormstrike macro to equip the Astral Winds totem.
As the Stonebreaker Totem's buff doesnt dissipate when the totem is changed which could give and DPS increase.

Stormstrike Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/equip Totem of the Astral Winds
/cast Stormstrike

Earth Shock Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Earth Shock
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
/cast Earth Shock

Flame Shock Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Flame Shock
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
/cast Flame Shock

Frost Shock Macro:

#showtooltip
#show Earth Shock
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
/cast Frost Shock

We hope this information will be useful.

Last edited by shdrex21 : 01/09/08 at 11:21 PM.
#6141SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Phrentic
I tested it 3 weeks ago on live-server. Switching a totem will RESET your swing-timer. Due to the slow weapons u will lose too much white dmg and maybe WF-proccs by switching your totem to get 80 bonus ap on WF. And I tested it with a moonkin druid. It worked very well, but if you cancel the cast, the idol will be switched and the GCD will be triggered and you cant cast anything for 1.5 seconds which may sometimes result in a dps decrease.

I cant belive, that 4 pieces T5 bonus will out perform any non-set epics dropped in SSC/TK. Raid-buffed and potted my dps reaches 1100. The white dmg of this is around 39-42%. Thats about 450 dps. The set bouns is not 5% haste - it´s 5% more haste from flurry. So it will push your white dmg, which is allready pushed from flurry by 30% by additional 5%.

So 450 Dps without 4 pieces bouns will result in (450 / 130) * 135 = 467.30 dps with 4 p set bouns.

Wearing non-set epic will out perform the 4 pieces bonus of about 17 dps in my opinion.

Excuse my english - I´m german ;-)

Last edited by Phrentic : 01/09/08 at 11:37 PM.
#6142SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Welcome to Extra-GCD use.

See the last page or two on why having an /equip line prior to a /cast line is bad (Hint: it triggers something).
#6143SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by T.K.
Malan again^^ - Btw, not quite the main point in here, but my guild consistently raids with 2 enhancement shammies, so i'm almost all the time at a hunter/hunter/spriest/drood/me group. If you guys need data or whatever at setups like this as i saw people asking about...
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
#6144SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
Originally Posted by Phrentic
...set bouns is not 5% haste - it´s 5% more haste from flurry...
5% haste is 5% haste, regardless of whether its from flurry, or from haste rating. Assuming roughly 80% uptime on flurry, and valuing haste rating at about 1.7AEP I see the set bonus as worth about 107 AEP (5 * 80% * 15.7 * 1.7). Now for a worste case scenario we can compare Head/Shoulder/Hands/Legs.

Obviously your AEP will be slightly different, but I value Crit at 1.8, and Hit/Haste at 1.7, with Expertise about 3.1.

In both cases the Cataclysm helm will occupy the head slot, so we're only compating Shoulder/Hands/Legs. Stranger/Searing Grip/Skulkers are my choice of offset loot for those three slots.

Tier5:
Shoulder- 141
Hands- 160
Legs- 200
Total:: 501

Offset:
Shoulder- 195
Hands- 180
Legs- 221
Total:: 596

So the offset items are worth 95 more AEP, 12AEP less than the tier5 four-piece bonus. The shoulders are the only really really weak item, and if you were considering Head/Chest/Hands/Legs (tier5 v bloodsea) then the Cataclysm set is even better.
#6145SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by Malan
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
My old guild used to use a Feral Druid MT (seminarca on these forums) with an Enhancement Shaman and Warrior in his group. We did a VR where he held aggro from something like the third knockback to the last.
#6146SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Elaxion
Now this one might sound stupid but i really have no idea and i havent found a post on it, would 4+ weapon damage or 4+ all stats be a significant bonus for a enhancement shaman. i have a 2 trinkets, one from Kara Romulo's poison and Crystalforged Trinket from Reverd Ogrila Again with the + Weapon Damage. is There anyone that can lead me through this? i know Enhance Shammys need a little bit of everything but im not sure how this + damage adds up Compaired to other stats like + hit.
If you can find +4 weapon damage to rings take it. Otherwise use search function.
Ogrila trinket isn't worth much for slow weapons. Also Romulo's inst right trinket choice for us.
Get badge trinket and hourglass at BM.
You can calculate ep for +damage:
[(+X damage / mh weapon speed) + (X damage / oh weapon speed)] * 8.48 * 0.85 (mentall quickness inflation multiplier)

Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/10/08 at 6:07 AM.
#6147SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
testthewest
Originally Posted by Bragor
Somebody start baning people please seeing that nobody from the new comers is reading the first post.

P.S. Nice not even an armory link to see how your stat weights are calculated.

Maybe I'm still blind from the last rogue, but does the first post mention the worth of T5 4setbonus somewhere? I couldn't find it.


Big thanks to Wolflord!

I use the statsweightening for T5 level equip. Thats 2 for crit, 1,4 for hit and 1,48 for haste.
I think we are done with SSC and we will only kill Kael a few more time before we move on. So I guess the Chest is the only set-item I may have a shot at-

Last edited by testthewest : 01/10/08 at 8:04 AM.
#6148SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Vohbo
Holding aggro on Void Reaver has a lot more to do with how much of the knockbacks do not affect you than by raw TPS output. On several occasions I have not had a knockback until below 20 % after which it of course switched immediately.
Having an enhancement shaman in the main tank group provides only a small bonus to threat over having a resto shaman there.
#6149SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Ankha
Just a thought

with you all knowing alot more than me, I need some help. Im swinging two fist of Reckoning at the moment. When I get my first Merciless cleaver, should I hold it in my off hand or my main hand for more DPS? I was thinking MH but I know the pesky OH is a source for grief.

[Edit] After comparing it seems a larger benefit to start with the main hand. Leme know if im wrong.

Last edited by Ankha : 01/10/08 at 1:21 PM.
#6150SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Main Hand. Putting it in your Off Hand would result in a smaller damage increase because the OH deals half damage while dual wielding.

I assume you're asking this question because you're worried about the difference in weapon speeds between Fist of Reckoning and Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver effecting your damage in a negative way if you put the wrong weapon in your MH. As long as both weapons are reasonably slow, a difference in speed between the MH and OF doesn't really matter, regardless of which one is faster or slower. Just put your best weapon in your MH.

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/10/08 at 9:18 AM.
#6151SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Toots Hepcat
Malan -- set bonuses aren't random pieces, they're the baseline gear for each raiding tier. I think they're pretty important.

T5 has been valued elsewhere in this thread...basically, the bonus is worth is 5 * 15.8 * (flurry uptime percentage/100) * your haste EP value. So with 75% uptime and a haste EP of 1.48, four pieces is worth an extra 87 EP.

So:
2 piece T4: +26.4 EP (plus the benefit of +12 STR to your party, ask them)
4 piece T5: 79 * (uptime/100) * haste rating EP
4 piece T6: 70 EP
4 piece PVP: 47.4 * haste rating EP

No other set bonus has any EP weight.

PVP bonus explained: Bonus offers an additional swing with each hand every 90s. With 2.6s weapons, you would make 34.6 swings with each every 90s. It would take 3% haste to increase this to 35.6 swings. So way I see it, this bonus has the same effect as 3% haste would have...though it is obviously not a haste effect.
#6152SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
I didn't say they were random, I said I had no interest in it. Same reason that I haven't listed every single talent in the Enhancement tree and explained what it is and what it does, and here's all the totems and what they do... I don't think its necessary and I think all the tools are laid out that make it understandable how to figure most things out.
#6153SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
I calculate 4-set PVP bonus with YO's sim.

1. Calcualte dps with earth shaker.
1. Calculate dps without it.
3. dps(w - w/o) / dps value of 1 ap.

Set bonus worth 58.6ep with base stats.
#6154SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Gehenna
Agree

Originally Posted by Malan
We've been running 2 enhance shaman a lot lately too for some reason, putting one on the MT group is a great place for the 2nd one, the threat window that opens up is a huge boost for the entire raid.
A second enhance shaman in the MT group is by far the best place to put one.

Assuming you've got 2 warriors in there, he is getting battle shout just like the enhance shaman in the rogue group, so his damage is not subject to much change. In addition, his buffs will increase tank TPS.

Many high end guilds such as Blood Legion FSB and Drow run 2 melee groups.

Tank Group:

Prot Warrior
Prot Warrior
Feral Druid
Enhance Shaman
Rogue

Melee DPS Group:

Rogue
Rogue
Feral Druid
MS warrior
Enhance Shaman
#6155SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2T.K.
My tank's group is not the best place for the second enhance shamy at my raid setup.

Our tanks TPS are normally around 1000-1400 depending fights, so we rarelly have threat issues. We normally raid with salv and that along with classes agro dumb/reduced agro skills make for it.

We raid with BM hunter along with the other hunter, drood and spriest and me in the group, and the hunters DPS is a big chunk of our DPS, so that's why the group setup is made to improve their DPS so much.
#6156SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2pun650
wtb definite answer on weapon enchants.

I'll admit I'm far too lazy to go through this entire site to find info, and the search function on this site does NOT help at all.

5/6 3/4 enhancement shaman, top dpser for this guild, just hit 1850, buying weapons soon....wants to know what enchants.
#6157SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Omaris
weapon enchants

Originally Posted by pun650
wtb definite answer on weapon enchants.

I'll admit I'm far too lazy to go through this entire site to find info, and the search function on this site does NOT help at all.

5/6 3/4 enhancement shaman, top dpser for this guild, just hit 1850, buying weapons soon....wants to know what enchants.


Mongoose > Crusader > Potency, generally. None of them are wrong, it comes down to personal choice and what your gear favors. Mongoose provides 4.8% crit per proc (and stacks with double procs on MH/OH), Crusader provides 60 Strength (120 AP) at lvl 70 per proc, and Potency is a constant +20 Strength (40 AP).

Some information on Executioner can be found here. Executioner currently does not stack from multiple hands, each proc when DWing will simply refresh the buff. It is unknown if this is intended. Obviously the value of Executioner will increase as you gain more -Armor gear. At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond Executioner will be more valuable.

Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%. Dual Executioner may have as high as 70-75% uptime, but again, the effect does not stack.
That should answer it.
#6158SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Capital
First page, if you want to know which weapon enchant is best for you, go run the numbers through yo's sim.

Edit: Too slow ;<
#6159SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Karok(EU)
Would it perhaps be possible to get the stats (ap/crit/hit/haste/expertise/ArP etc) noted down that sebudai used to get the results posted on the front page?

If he allready had some expertise any subsequent expertise would be more valuable to people who have none yet.
If he had more ArP his ArP value would also be higher compared to people that have none etc.

Or maybe just a link to his post: http://elitistjerks.com/584821-post5816.html

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 01/10/08 at 7:20 PM.
#6160SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2benvegas
How does this look for LootRank:

Loot Rank
#6161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
"Evidence suggests that Mongoose and Executioner have nearly the same uptime and PPM, around 40-45%. Dual Executioner may have as high as 70-75% uptime, but again, the effect does not stack."

I think these are very optimist values. I done some test with Yo's sim.
Even with hit cap + 50% crit: flyrry uptime 92% you can get only 40% uptime to single exe or 64% to dual exe.
Even with expertice cap + hit cap + 94% flurry uptime you can get only 42% and 65% uptimes.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 01/10/08 at 8:23 PM.
#6162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Joy
Originally Posted by benvegas
How does this look for LootRank:

Loot Rank
I get 0 rating for melee crit on that which throws things out of whack.

You also don't include kings into the STR value, and you have AGI as valuable as STR which is near impossible unless you have massive AP and minute crit.


FYI these are the values I come up with for my gear (based on YO's 100k hours)
Loot Rank

WTB SSC >_<


A question or my own:

Given that 3 of our Priests have the Dagger off Illidan it occurred to me that it might be worth consideration, however when I plug it in as an offhand (its 106 dps 1.9speed) I get a higher DPS with WF/WF than WF/FT - is this correct?

Also a solid 100dps loss on double syphons.

Last edited by Joy : 01/10/08 at 10:01 PM.
#6163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by Vohbo
Holding aggro on Void Reaver has a lot more to do with how much of the knockbacks do not affect you than by raw TPS output. On several occasions I have not had a knockback until below 20 % after which it of course switched immediately.
Having an enhancement shaman in the main tank group provides only a small bonus to threat over having a resto shaman there.
From what I understand about Feral Druid aggro, alot more of their threat comes from things affected by crit/AP. But this is off topic.

Originally Posted by Joy
A question or my own:

Given that 3 of our Priests have the Dagger off Illidan it occurred to me that it might be worth consideration, however when I plug it in as an offhand (its 106 dps 1.9speed) I get a higher DPS with WF/WF than WF/FT - is this correct?

Also a solid 100dps loss on double syphons.
Quite possible, due to the fact the dagger is a very slow one. A quick speed is what makes FT favourable compared to WF on the offhand.
#6164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ston
the dagger has a very similar damage range to the S1 Gladiator weapons, just a faster speed. So it's not really that surprising that it's outperforming FT since FT bases its damage on weapon speed, not weapon DPS. The only thing that's probably happening is it's clipping the MH WF procs.
#6165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2testthewest
Originally Posted by Malan
I didn't say they were random, I said I had no interest in it. Same reason that I haven't listed every single talent in the Enhancement tree and explained what it is and what it does, and here's all the totems and what they do... I don't think its necessary and I think all the tools are laid out that make it understandable how to figure most things out.


Maybe it's the best to leave this topic simply in the discussion part, right here.
I never wanted it to be included, but I needed to defend myself vs people that told me, I wasn't reading before asking.
#6166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
I've been raiding 2 lockouts with Double Executioner now and I have to say it seems to absolutely have no significant difference from Mongoose/Executioner. Unfortunatly WWS is a bit borked to track uptime with it, so you're gonna have to believe the sim.
#6167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Rob
Originally Posted by benvegas
How does this look for LootRank:

Loot Rank
No value for crit rating or expertise? Bad.
I'd also set meta = 50, since RED is worth at least that much.
#6168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Illundai
I've been raiding 2 lockouts with Double Executioner now and I have to say it seems to absolutely have no significant difference from Mongoose/Executioner. Unfortunatly WWS is a bit borked to track uptime with it, so you're gonna have to believe the sim.
I did some tests with Yo's sim with your values and all raid buffs.

Mong/mong: 1756dps
Exe/mong: 1755dps
Mong/exe: 1756dps
Exe/exe: 1746dps

You have so high level gear that exe is par with mongoose.
But becouse its not stack double exe is just waste of potetial.
#6169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
That was the conclusion I came to, Pitbuller. I think that it's well worth having one weapon be Executioner (past certain EP numbers, see previous posts on this), as for which one, I don't think it matters because if the hit which procs windfury also procs another effect (Seen it with DST and Mongoose etc) than the buff is applied before the windfury strikes take place.
#6170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stigmata
Hi guys, Haven't been around since early November, good to see your still grinding away with the theory crafting.

I haven't logged onto my shaman or even spent the talent points from the 2.3 patch reset, but I'm still interested in how things are going.

My question is to do with expertise rating and what high end geared shaman are using nowadays, as I haven't been keeping up with this thread I am not sure who is still playing and who isn't.

So how much in general do people use and can someone link me the armory of a current gear capped player(s) who are still around please.
#6171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
To my ever lasting demise I can't got a hold of one viable expertise rated item currently (Unless you can count the neck piece from Badges but I ain't gonna touch one by a ten foot pole ).

I am also trying out Execuitoner (After forking out the cash for it) in PVE content and will provide what numbers I can parse.

<== Check his armory for gear and talents ^_^
#6172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
Hello Stigmata!
My gear is almost complete, missing a [Choker of Endless Nightmares], a [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape] and a [Madness of the Betrayer] instead of [Berserker's Call]. I don't feel like grinding two S3 weapons because the upgrade would be minimal (like +10-15 dps according to Yo's sim) and I don't really find PvP fun as an enhancement shaman.

Expertise is really good, the [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is still the top belt. Also [Grips of Damnation] is only a little bit better than [Gloves of the Searing Grip] (has 18 expertise rating, tooltip shows pre-2.3 values).

These are my preferences, I'm waiting for 2.4 to see the additional changes and available upgrades.
#6173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
I'm just missing Illidan ring and a Madness really. The only expertise item I feel is worth wearing is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Sadly none of our gear has any Expertise on it, but still has mp5!

P.S: I do have [Bow-stitched Leggings] & [Midnight Chestguard] for those who are going to nitpick. I just prefer to look cool!
#6174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2T.K.
Well, we're only up to Reliquary of Souls and luck haven't been on my side till here, but i got a couple decent stuff as people around.

At one of our "attune the new recruits" runs, i got a vashj belt. Shame on me that the shoulder AND the gloves with expertise dropped and i didn't grab them.

My armory is down at the moment, although there's much better ekipped enhances around i guess. But if any interest arises i'm Ryla in US WoW.
#6175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Vohbo
I don't think any of the other expertise items is worth wearing if you have access to T6 equivalent gear no, but at the lower end they are pretty easy to get and provide a significant boost in your dps. I'm still wearing my [Clefthoof Hide Leggings] and am pretty pleased with how few dodges I get.
#6176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Vohbo
I don't think any of the other expertise items is worth wearing if you have access to T6 equivalent gear no, but at the lower end they are pretty easy to get and provide a significant boost in your dps. I'm still wearing my [Clefthoof Hide Leggings] and am pretty pleased with how few dodges I get.
#6177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Paradox
Is the belt of one-hundred deaths really that good? I have passed on it at least twice when it has dropped, and now you're telling me it's the best belt obtainable? Christ.. big red warning sign next time please. Don't even run SSC anymore..
#6178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2vorda
Originally Posted by Paradox
Is the belt of one-hundred deaths really that good? I have passed on it at least twice when it has dropped, and now you're telling me it's the best belt obtainable? Christ.. big red warning sign next time please. Don't even run SSC anymore..
It's not really that new though

Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#6179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Also [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] is very good choise.
#6180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Paradox
Was never really defined as being the best :<


Like to point out these gems:
Smooth Ornate Dawnstone - Items - World of Warcraft
Inscribed Ornate Topaz - Items - World of Warcraft
Bold Ornate Ruby - Items - World of Warcraft

They are ranking pretty high with my current weights better than Rare gems and quite close to epic gems so nice placeholders if you're waiting for epic gems from guildbank.
#6181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Also [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] is very good choise.
With my current stat weightings these are best-in-game. At the moment I have the benefit of actually using all 10 expertise rating (2.5 expertise normally rounds down) due to other expertise gear, but even if you only consider the 8 expertise rating that gives guaranteed expertise these are still the best shoulders in the game (and thats without epic gems).
#6182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2beetlejuice
Hello, we all read and think about maximising dps of our enhancement shamans. i wanted to ask if u could make a "formula" where

Hit rating, Critical strike chance, Attack power, Haste, Armor penetration and Expertise

blend in a balance where the result is the maximised dps we seek.

It may sound insane but we have facts and theories as how each stat affects dps and especialy how the boost of each stat with specific gear upgrades may hinder other stat's essential overall number.

Like hit rating build up hinders critical chance and attack power. Or Haste stacking hinders critical chance (not talking theory only here, specific gear exists in wow). Or how armor penetration perfoms better the more you stack it. And so on.


If we test high end gear in certain mixes, in the current dps calculator tests or whatever they are called, could we get an ideal high end gear setup and put out some numbers on AP/Crit/Hit/ArP/Haste/Exp ?

Could we also do a % decrease in all stats and see if we get same % reduction in overal dps? Woud all this be correct? or i am getting obsessed with my enhancement shaman?

Also before burning me , please consider that theory is fine, but gear isn't, especialy high end. Gear choices on a certain slot, high end, are 3-6 different . Could we make some tests?
#6183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
Originally Posted by beetlejuice
Hello, we all read and think about maximising dps of our enhancement shamans. i wanted to ask if u could make a "formula" where

Hit rating, Critical strike chance, Attack power, Haste, Armor penetration and Expertise

blend in a balance where the result is the maximised dps we seek.

It may sound insane but we have facts and theories as how each stat affects dps and especialy how the boost of each stat with specific gear upgrades may hinder other stat's essential overall number.

Like hit rating build up hinders critical chance and attack power. Or Haste stacking hinders critical chance (not talking theory only here, specific gear exists in wow). Or how armor penetration perfoms better the more you stack it. And so on.


If we test high end gear in certain mixes, in the current dps calculator tests or whatever they are called, could we get an ideal high end gear setup and put out some numbers on AP/Crit/Hit/ArP/Haste/Exp ?

Could we also do a % decrease in all stats and see if we get same % reduction in overal dps? Woud all this be correct? or i am getting obsessed with my enhancement shaman?

Also before burning me , please consider that theory is fine, but gear isn't, especialy high end. Gear choices on a certain slot, high end, are 3-6 different . Could we make some tests?

1) Such formulas exist already, OP lists few open-source projects that are based on direct formulas (another approach being simulation), maxdps.com is also based on direct formulas that are listed for open view.
2) Ideal high end gear was posted in previous year . You can find it yourself using one of the tools too. In fact some items were designed to be the best for their slot and you would choose them over anything else without the need to run tests.
3) If you decrease all stats by 10%, your dps will fall more than that. Imagine multi-dimensional rectangle dps = ap*crit*hit*speed. When each side is shortened by 10%, the result is 0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9 = 0.66 of original. It is more complex of course, but the conclusion is that any small tweaks sum up to big boost in overall dps especially with high-end gear where sides are already long.
#6184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
Let me answer you by a simple way.. Who will do this huge calculation feat with nearly hundreds of combos of gear ?

It's Very simple.. It cannot be done due to the fact of too many variables gear wise & enviroment wise.

Also, There's the fact that the only cab readily attained (Of course any enhancement shaman that will gain it will be considered gimping himself in the current itemiztion scheme) is hit which is capped at 24%. Other then that any increased stat will net you an increase in Dps.
#6185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Yo!
1) Such formulas exist already, OP lists few open-source projects that are based on direct formulas (another approach being simulation), maxdps.com is also based on direct formulas that are listed for open view.
2) Ideal high end gear was posted in previous year . You can find it yourself using one of the tools too. In fact some items were designed to be the best for their slot and you would choose them over anything else without the need to run tests.
3) If you decrease all stats by 10%, your dps will fall more than that. Imagine multi-dimensional rectangle dps = ap*crit*hit*speed. When each side is shortened by 10%, the result is 0.9*0.9*0.9*0.9 = 0.66 of original. It is more complex of course, but the conclusion is that any small tweaks sum up to big boost in overall dps especially with high-end gear where sides are already long.
Sounds pretty familiar, Yo! ;-) Almost as if you'd said something like that a long time ago!
#6186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Chiapet
quick question

So we know that WF/WF is better dps even with flurry up but what about with added hast from gear?It looks like FT mite catch up if the speed gets high enough.I havent run it throu the sim yet but it looks close, any thoughts ?
#6187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
Originally Posted by Chiapet
So we know that WF/WF is better dps even with flurry up but what about with added hast from gear?It looks like FT mite catch up if the speed gets high enough.I havent run it throu the sim yet but it looks close, any thoughts ?
This has all ready been discussed and it has been proven that WF/WF is still the best enchant for maximum potential.

P.S. There's a search button AND also this :

Since everyone is asking, yes, FT will be a more viable OH weapon imbue in patch 2.3. Its not going to out DPS Windfury. The AP-->Spell Dmg talent change will make it easier for Shaman to find a good OH without having to carry around a low level green weapon. Before you debate this with us, please run a test for yourself on Yo!'s simulator (linked below).
On the First Post.
#6188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
Ring enchant
2 damage <= 0.8 raw dps (assuming 2.5 or slower weapons) = 0.8*14 ap = 11.2 EP
4 str = 8 EP (no BoK) V 8.8 EP (BoK)
4 agi = 6 to 8 EP for most setups
So, because shamans are forced to use slow weapons, +4 stats ring enchant is better for dps + there is stam&int bonus
#6189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Sancho
Originally Posted by Yo!
Ring enchant
2 damage <= 0.8 raw dps (assuming 2.5 or slower weapons) = 0.8*14 ap = 11.2 EP
4 str = 8 EP (no BoK) V 8.8 EP (BoK)
4 agi = 6 to 8 EP for most setups
So, because shamans are forced to use slow weapons, +4 stats ring enchant is better for dps + there is stam&int bonus
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought AP only gave half the benefit to the OH, whereas the +damage enchant would apply equally to both hands. Therefore, 1.0 DPS worth of +damage would actually be more valuable than 14AP.
#6190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Sancho
whereas the +damage enchant would apply equally to both hands
Is it so? If it is so, add 3.7EP * 0.8 (3.7 EP comes from OP - the part where MH DPS and OH DPS were assigned EP values for 2.6 speed weapons).
#6191SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
+2 damage to rings is 2 /2.6 * 8.48 * 2 * 0.85 = 11.05ep
Both hands get +2damage but ap is affected by unleashed rage and boost spell damage small amount.
#6192SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ankha
Meta blues, punn intended

Ok my Relentless earthstorm Diamond need 2 red, 2yellow, 2 blue gems. My problem is my suit of armor has only yellow and red sockets. I can use green and purple to count twards my 2 blue requirement right? What is the BEST choices.

I dont think the first post covered this problem.
#6193SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stolidus
You don't have to fulfill socket bonuses. Just put your blue colored gems, which should be sovereign nightseyes, as the first post states, into those sockets which give you socket bonuses that don't increase dps (i.e. stamina or int bonuses).
#6194SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ankha
Ahh so just so I get ya right, look for my spots that dont have socket bonuses adding to DPS, and drop in the blue Sovereign Nighteyes? I didnt know ya could do that...
#6195SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Morelis
I would think looking for items that give you socket bonuses that add to dps and happen to require blue gems would be the way to go.
#6196SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Morelis
I would think looking for items that give you socket bonuses that add to dps and happen to require blue gems would be the way to go.
That's always the way to go.

For example (and this is for elemental btw) I'm using purple gems in my helm/shoulders, because CSD requires 2 or more, I'm a JC so I've got a 12 spell crit gem to fit in somewhere, and the helm/shoulder T6 sockets are MB & BY respectively.
Outside of that, there's no reason to socket for the socket bonuses, as 1-3 12 dmg gems outweigh dmg/crit/stam stacking via getting set bonuses.

Simplifying: Socket bonus + best gems required to get bonus vs best gems.
For blue gems, it usually works out that getting the socket bonus is better, but for epics (MH/BT) it's best gem ignoring the bonuses (after considering meta requirements).
#6197SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2jindwaha
great post

exellent job this post helped a lot to maximize my dps.
finally somebody else thinks that ehancement is a viable raiding spec.
so much pressure to spec resto its ridiculous
#6198SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ankha
Originally Posted by Morelis
I would think looking for items that give you socket bonuses that add to dps and happen to require blue gems would be the way to go.
At the moment im comptelty focused on BG's and arena gear. Once Im completly decked out in epic, i will stop my pvp focus and go back to lookin for groups that earn me 20 Badge of Justice for my Stonebreaker.
#6199SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2punkrockrobot
I have an issue with gear. T4 has Str and Agility on it yet according to LootRank.com which this site suggests to use to find
the best gear ranks Mask of the Deceiver - Items - World of Warcraft above t4 helm and Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation - Items - World of Warcraft far above t4 gloves, but my guild mates say that site is wrong, because BoK makes T4 items better and that enhancement Shamans should always take Str

Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS

this is the template I used Loot Rank Forums :: View topic - [Template] - Enhancement Shamans
#6200SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Weem
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot
I have an issue with gear. T4 has Str and Agility on it yet according to LootRank.com which this site suggests to use to find
the best gear ranks Mask of the Deceiver - Items - World of Warcraft above t4 helm and Gloves of Dexterous Manipulation - Items - World of Warcraft far above t4 gloves, but my guild mates say that site is wrong, because BoK makes T4 items better and that enhancement Shamans should always take Str

Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS

this is the template I used Loot Rank Forums :: View topic - [Template] - Enhancement Shamans
You are correct and not your guild mates. Not only is Mask of the Deceiver better than T4, the quest reward Helm of the Claw is better as well. Regarding the gloves, you are also correct. T4 is comparatively worse than many other items available. Stay the course and follow what LootRank is suggesting gear wise.
#6201SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2automatica
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot
Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS
Works fine for me.
#6202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ChaguraED
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot
Since Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo doesn't work how do i find out the which items will improve my DPS

this is the template I used Loot Rank Forums :: View topic - [template] - Enhancement Shamans
I found that installing the latest version of Java solved this problem. It may help you out too.
#6203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Weem
You are correct and not your guild mates. Not only is Mask of the Deceiver better than T4, the quest reward Helm of the Claw is better as well. Regarding the gloves, you are also correct. T4 is comparatively worse than many other items available.
The thing to remember about T4 is you probably want to keep 2 pieces of it for a long time. +12 STR is an additional +24 personal EP and is a nice bonus for your group as well -- + 12 AP for each rogue & cat, +24 for your warrior. That's ~+84 AP in most groups.

Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces.
#6204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2lizard
alrite so im veryvery sorry if the following question has been asked already but i didnt have the patience to search through the entire thread. my question is the following:

if your WF is on CD and the SS CD runs out, how many seconds of the WF CD are worth waiting with SS to give it a chance to proc WF? it should be theorycraftable and as i see it, the number hardly depends on my gear level at all.
#6205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhagok
+ 12 AP for each rogue & cat
actually its about 30 AP for a cat, so many people do know so little about Druids, they also get 2 AP from 1 Str but with talents they can push that to about 2,47 ...
#6206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Jumbotron
I suppose I have a terribly noobish question, but I could really use some help.

I'm starting to accumulate some T5-level gear and Yo's calculator is valuing hit rating at 1.98 EP, yet according to this thread and my current understanding of enhancement shaman, hit rating should be a less valuable stat. Should I continue to gear and gem according to Yo's calculator or is something amiss?

My current unbuffed stats are 1448ap, 27.22% crit, 8 expertise(not rating), 138 hit rating, 30 haste rating and 168 armor penetration.
#6207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Nothing is amiss. All that is being said is "don't go out of your way to get +Hit." Ever seen a rogue get a new item? He has to juggle gems and old gear around to make room for it to make sure he's not dropping too much +Hit. We're saying that you don't need to worry about that. Don't gem for it, don't go replacing items that have less AP/Crit but have more Hit. Its still valuable, its just not a priority.
#6208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mbuzi
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.

Q: What stats do I need to input?
A: Stats from your paperdoll when out of raid buffs. That is stats from gear + "naked" stats + stats from talents. Use buffs page to select your buffs. The exception is Blessing of Kings (if you expect it) - you need both to input your paperdoll stats increased by 10% and turn BoK "on" on buffs tab. If some buffs are missing - input them directly to stats. Boss armor - reduced by all expected debuffs.
#6209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blargenheim
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
#6210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Is getting a decent group an option? If not, twist totems :P.

On a serious note, I'd drop WF I think.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/14/08 at 9:38 PM.
#6211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2iah
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
#6212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
The thing to remember about T4 is you probably want to keep 2 pieces of it for a long time. +12 STR is an additional +24 personal EP and is a nice bonus for your group as well -- + 12 AP for each rogue & cat, +24 for your warrior. That's ~+84 AP in most groups.

Helm and gloves are most likely the first pieces you'll pick up to complete the bonus. Shoulders and Gloves are your best bets if you're only keeping 2 pieces.
Another thing to remember is our 'Enhancing totems' talent, which put the bonus to an effective +14 STR, making it even more valuable
#6213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blazingwater
A question here for gear:

I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit.

Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me.
#6214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2seminarca
Top end just means you get the occassional big hit, always consider the average hit before you look at top end. Put the one with higher average hit in the mainhand, in this case it's Pummeler (237 average hit) mainhand and Bane (227.5 average hit) offhand.

More than for not running the sim, you deserve a /bonk for bringing up an age old Rogue myth.
#6215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Blargenheim
Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
If the feral is main tanking I'd go with GoA but that is a frigging horrible group setup and you really ought to get that changed.
#6216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Illundai
Originally Posted by iah
Mut gets nothing from it....only the warrior would....GoA a better choice
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?

Edit: If Mutilate really ends up closer than it used to do, I stand corrected - I only read the first few pages on most Rogue threads and there the conclusion was that it was ~200 dps less than Combat Daggers.
By the way, personally I'd twist my ass off in a group like that, due to it's uncommon nature - get the best of both worlds T_T.

Last edited by Illundai : 01/15/08 at 8:08 AM.
#6217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
panny
Originally Posted by Illundai
Yeah, but Mutilate is a shit spec anyhow. Why buff mediocre specs when you can buff one much superior one, which'll probably end up in more dps anyway?
Can we not jump to Official WoW forums vitriol here? From the threads around here, Mutilate is comparable to combat daggers and not far behind combat swords. Anyway, Mutilate does gain from WF (it's better than IP or DP) but it's a marginal gain. In that particular group, given equal skill/gear, I would use GoA.



I tanked heroic SV the other week but forgot to post my report in here. Anyway, I did it with using mostly PvP gear. In Vindicator's PvP gear, 3 pieces of Vengeful Gladiator's and a Merciless Gladiator's Shield Wall, I have 12.2k health and 11k armour. Adding in a food buff and Kings, I have 13.3k health and am crit immune from resilence. Since I was constantly being hit, Water Shield meant that I had infinite mana and so instead of using Shamanistic Rage for regen, it was purely a defensive measure. Party makeup was: Elemental Shaman, Fire Mage, Fury Warrior and a Holy Paladin as a healer. The Elemental Shaman was undergeared and the Fury Warrior was offhanding a skinning dagger because he hadn't levelled the right skill for his new weapon. The rest of us are T5 geared.

An Enhancement Shaman that wants to tank needs a Paladin because we get Parry through Spirit Weapons, which comes attached with threat reduction. Without Salvation on your DPS, they'll have to hold back alot, and I thought 5% Parry was too valuable to give up for survivability. My healer never had to pot, so I actually think it'd be better without it Spirit Weapons, though my Fire Mage said he was deliberately being difficult and the Shadow Priest was PvP specced with no threat reduction talents. I frequently forgot to wait for Shamanistic Rage to cooldown before tacking rough pulls and bosses, but it seemed to work out fine.

Spec used was 0/44/17 with a PvP slant (Guardian Totems over Enhancing Totems) but your average raiding spec should be fine anyway. The other noteable choice talent might be Shield Spec over Ancestral Knowledge, which I usually go for anyway, since the mana gains from AK are minimal.

My pull technique was to Chain Lightning and run over an Earthbind, letting me Chain Lightning again before closing in for melee, with spare Frost Shocks on loose mobs to hold them over heal aggro. This was enough to hold aggro most of the time, though Earthbind helped give me time to recover if I did lose it. AoE pulls were also a problem threat-wise, though no one died. I used Windfury Weapon on a Merciless Gladiator's weapon with Mongoose (for the dodge).

The toughest pulls were the Bog Overlords, which required the Elemental Shaman to help heal me, and for some of the heavier pulls, we had the Fury Warrior tank one mob, but since another class with Humanoid CC would've made this unnesscary, I didn't consider this to invalidate the experiment. :P

The first boss (Hydromancer), was a bit tough at first due to the fact we had no banish, and the Elementals are immune to the only threat heavy attack we have, Frost Shock. We ended up having the Fury offtank one Elemental (simulating a banish) while I focused on the other, and kept Frost Shocking Hydromancer to hold her over healing threat. We killed my Elemental, then the Warrior's, then the boss.

Engineer and Warlord were pretty easy, though I had to help DPS water tanks.

Last edited by panny : 01/14/08 at 11:37 PM.
#6218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
A question here for gear:

I just recently got [Fool's Bane] from KZ the other night, and I already have [Gladiator's Pummeler] and I need to know which is a better combo; Bane/S1 or S1/Bane. I see that the S1 weapon has more dps, but Bane has the higher top damage. Any suggestions? I'm running with around 1100Ap and 25% crit.

Oh, and before you club me over the head, know that the simulator's aren't working for me.
Well, simple question begets a simple answer. [Fool's Bane] is main hand only, so that answers it for you.

Panny,

Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread?

Edit: My bad, I was reading off of the item link which still says main hand. Goes to show what happens if you trust the interweb.

Last edited by frozndevl : 01/15/08 at 10:33 AM.
#6219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Sebudai
They changed Fool's Bane to One-Hand semi-recently.

Quick question here, I'll make it easy and short. Our current group composition is as follows, Fury Warrior, Feral(Tank) Druid, Mutilate Rogue, the Enh Shammy, and myself (Hunter, spec may vary.) WF or GoA?
GoA of course.
#6220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2seminarca
It's not, it was changed to One Hand in a recent patch.
#6221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by frozndevl
Well, simple question begets a simple answer. [Fool's Bane] is main hand only, so that answers it for you.

Panny,

Other than the shield and the minor spec change did you modify any of your gear to max out hp and defense, or were your stats still a result of maximum dps as explained in the thread?
In the Vindicator's gear (Neck/Bracers), I had [Steady Talasite]. In my head, I had an RED and a STR gem. Merciless Shoulders had double Solid Stars. Chest was full DPS gems, all enchants were DPS enchants except for boots, where I use Boar's Speed rather than Cat's Swiftness. Fairly standard PvP gearing. Shield was +stam of course. The Paladin healing me actually commented that it's harder to heal some PuG warriors.
#6222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
+ Added "wait with SS if less than xxx seconds are left of WF cooldown" option. While it shows that it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS, remember that you may miss or be forced to postpone some other abilities due to global cooldown, though you may be able to perform them while waiting with SS. I guess you'll need to substract 1-2 shocks per 2 minutes to simulate that but not sure about it
+ Corrected Grace of Air buff to 88 agi, not 97 like SoE
Originally Posted by Mbuzi
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.
Correct.
#6223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
#6224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2masso
hi, ive gotten 4/5 of the season 3 enhance gear now. and the stats there are pritty nice, but i was just wondering since my guild does TK/SSC, is the gear there better then season3 or aint it that big difference?
#6225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS.
#6226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nemaa
lizard:
As far as I know (and as Yo comfirmed it in his previous post) it is worth to wait even full 3 seconds before striking with SS.
#6227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2masso
could anyone just tell me if i should stick to my season 3 enhance gear or get the gear from TK/SSC? plx plx
#6228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Masso read first page. Then use loot rank. Or you can even run YO's sim for your own stat values. Or if you wanna be real lazy use MAXdps.
#6229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by lizard
if your WF is on CD and the SS CD runs out, how many seconds of the WF CD are worth waiting with SS to give it a chance to proc WF? it should be theorycraftable and as i see it, the number hardly depends on my gear level at all.
You're right, it shouldn't depend on your gear. And oh look, Yo has added this functionality. Thanks man.

I took the default stats, BUT added 20 shocks/2 minutes.

Wait 0s: 1147
Wait 1s: 1155
Wait 2s: 1160
Wait 3s: 1161

So hey, best case scenario you get 1.2% additional DPS by waiting your stormstrikes.

However, let's consider if you missed a SINGLE shock as a result of it:

Wait 3s, 19 shocks/minute: 1150.

You just lost most of your benefit.

One of the best things a shaman can do to optimize his DPS post-MQ is to hit shocks on the cooldown. If you're able to do this while also sleeping SS when you can do so without affecting your WF cycle, well you're in a hard to simulate but probably best-case mode.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/15/08 at 1:13 PM.
#6230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2frozndevl
Originally Posted by panny
In the Vindicator's gear (Neck/Bracers), I had [Steady Talasite]. In my head, I had an RED and a STR gem. Merciless Shoulders had double Solid Stars. Chest was full DPS gems, all enchants were DPS enchants except for boots, where I use Boar's Speed rather than Cat's Swiftness. Fairly standard PvP gearing. Shield was +stam of course. The Paladin healing me actually commented that it's harder to heal some PuG warriors.
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
#6231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Durigen
Well, I think a Resto-Shaman would be able to tank better than Enhancement (assume the Enhancer didn't take Anticipation). Thanks to Earth Shield and a physical Shield your survivability would be much higher (not to mention there's lots of very good healing mail, as opposed to mostly DPS leather). The biggest problem would be aggro. WF on your weapon, Frost Shock every chance you get... I would still think it's a bad idea unless your team is overgeared and your tanking the little things. Like some of the random little guys near the Philanthropists.
#6232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2drats
Originally Posted by frozndevl
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
In pvp gear I can offtank some of Kara, but there are certain mobs that hit entirely too hard to be tanked by a shaman. This isn't really any different from the heroics. Resto isn't better for tanking because of Shamanistic Rage, losing parry, and having to heal yourself (can't dodge).
#6233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
Concussion, Reverberation & Nature's Guidance would be the one talents we'd need to specify points for.
#6234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Unaz
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
You're right, it shouldn't depend on your gear. And oh look, Yo has added this functionality. Thanks man.

I took the default stats, BUT added 20 shocks/2 minutes.

Wait 0s: 1147
Wait 1s: 1155
Wait 2s: 1160
Wait 3s: 1161

So hey, best case scenario you get 1.2% additional DPS by waiting your stormstrikes.

However, let's consider if you missed a SINGLE shock as a result of it:

Wait 3s, 19 shocks/minute: 1150.

You just lost most of your benefit.

One of the best things a shaman can do to optimize his DPS post-MQ is to hit shocks on the cooldown. If you're able to do this while also sleeping SS when you can do so without affecting your WF cycle, well you're in a hard to simulate but probably best-case mode.

Nice post, I hadn't done the math on this myself, but have been timing my SS outside the cooldown for a while now. Often at the cost of a perfect shock rotation.

I'm going to try stormstriking every cooldown unless I just shocked for a bit and see if it's any noticeable improvement. Should be easier to maintain at least.
#6235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by frozndevl
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
You won't be able to tank boss level mobs due to crushing blows. Also, in a raid, you're more likely to have the buffs/debuffs that boost raid damage so much -your dps would have to hold back. You need a 'proper' offtank like a DPS warrior for bosses anyway, there's little reason to take over on trash (though it can be done). The closest you'll likely get to offtanking on bosses in Kara is probably Morroes or Wizard of Oz.
#6236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mox
Originally Posted by panny
You won't be able to tank boss level mobs due to crushing blows. Also, in a raid, you're more likely to have the buffs/debuffs that boost raid damage so much -your dps would have to hold back. You need a 'proper' offtank like a DPS warrior for bosses anyway, there's little reason to take over on trash (though it can be done). The closest you'll likely get to offtanking on bosses in Kara is probably Morroes or Wizard of Oz.
Kael'Thas!! I always used to pull aggro on the mace and just tank it rest of the way.

But let's be honest, tanking should be the last thing a shaman should do.. we don't want blizzard to get the idea people actually want these useless talents so they never change them.
#6237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blargenheim
Originally Posted by Malan
If the feral is main tanking I'd go with GoA but that is a frigging horrible group setup and you really ought to get that changed.
We only run Kara atm, so it's not as bad as one would think. I would prefer the rogue to be combat swords, but he likes his daggers. Basically since Kara is only a 10 man we compile the best synergized groups possible, there arent any other better options. Other grp is spriest, 2 pallies, lock and the other tank (warrior). Had to put the warrior somewhere and the feral druid just got more benefit from, and benfitted more to, the melee group.
#6238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhut
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...

Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?

Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out.
#6239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Illundai
That's the thing, you are claiming bidding rights on 2 armor proficiencies. I bet you wouldn't like it if the warriors and ret paladins started bidding on your mail either :P.
They do when it's an upgrade, and I don't have a problem with that.

Originally Posted by Rhut
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...

Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?

Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out.
There was some discussion with numbers a month or so ago and I think it was around ~70 AEP in most cases.

Last edited by Skiace : 01/16/08 at 3:09 AM.
#6240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Rhut
Wasn't in the main post and I would prefer not to scroll thru 250 pages of text to find it...

Is there an AEP value agreed upon for the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?

Or is this able to be calculated? I'm open to the fact that it's crit based and the value can vary, I just want to be able to figure it out.
Run Yo's with RED proc enabled. Note DPS.
Run Yo's with RED proc disabled. Note DPS.
Estimate AP you must add to make low DPS equal high DPS. Run Yo's with AP added and proc disabled.
Refine estimate and repeat.

(Commonly agreed upon value is 50-80 AP, I believe that the low number counts just the proc and the high number counts the agility as well.)
#6241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhut
Thanks. I was debating on using a [Coif of the Jungle Stalker] instead of my cyclone helm but didn't want to drop the meta.
#6242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Yo!
Originally Posted by Rob
Run Yo's with RED proc enabled. Note DPS.
Run Yo's with RED proc disabled. Note DPS.
Estimate AP you must add to make low DPS equal high DPS. Run Yo's with AP added and proc disabled.
Refine estimate and repeat.

(Commonly agreed upon value is 50-80 AP, I believe that the low number counts just the proc and the high number counts the agility as well.)
Another, faster way to get EP for RED proc (or any other proc or item) is:
1) Run sim with RED proc "on". Note DPS1.
2) Run sim with RED proc "off". Note DPS2.
3) EP of RED proc for person without RED = (DPS1-DPS2)/(DPS value of 1 EP from second sim run)
Add your EP value for agi on RED to get item's tota EP scorel.

Originally Posted by Malan
Yo, one thing we've been talking about in the resto/elemental subspec thread is the need for the sim to take different values of the elemental/resto talent points, so that someone could take 3% extra shock dmg for example. Think that's workable? Maybe some input boxes where they fill in their talents?
Will do.
#6243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
#6244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Rhut
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
At high end there's a blue socket open in chest and belt. Both of these items have either AP or agi/crit socket bonuses.

Items that come to mind...

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Belt of the Black Eagle]
[Bloodsea Brigand's Vest]
[Midnight Chestguard]

then there's always these...
[Bow-stitched Leggings]


Personally I prefer to meet socket bonuses as long as it's crit-agi/str-ap/hit. I know some shamans that socket for all +Str and have maybe 30-50 ap more than me, but they've also got 3% less crit than I do. I like having a balance of stats.

Last edited by Rhut : 01/16/08 at 7:39 AM.
#6245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Those all items still yield very minor ep loss without str gems.
#6246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhut
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you agreeing with me? Are you saying that I wouldn't lose much EP if I kept the socket bonuses in those items? If so, then I believe we're in agreement. If not, to each his own I guess. Like I said earlier, I like balancing my stats.
#6247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2SFACER
OK, I think I'm mildly retarded, because I can't work this out and I've read everything including the front pages thoroughly.

I'm an Orc, I have a [Netherbane] and a [Rising Tide] both mongoosed. The other night a [Syphon of the Nathrezim] dropped, and because I have a few T4 armour pieces I didn't want to put myself rock bottom of dkp behind all the Hunters and rogues and wait an enternity to upgrade armour and ,therefore , passed on it.

I also explained I'd lose my Orc racial on the [Netherbane], bit of a cop out really.

So, have any Orc's compared these 2 weapons, what is the overall dps difference. Simulators are blocked for at work, but I guess the proc makes it impossible to measure, but I'd like some opinion/input please.

It's playing on my mind that maybe I should have just grabbed it, have I passed on a minimal or major dps upgrade?
#6248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Sebudai
Pretty sure Netherbane is better than Syphon for orcs by a decent margin. The orc racial is really good, so that wasn't a cop out. Expertise blows every other stat out of the water once you're in T6 quality gear(can see its ridiculous EP value based off of my gear on the first page.) I'd have used 2x Rising Tide if I could have back when there weren't S3 axes. It's easy to figure out which is better using the simulator though, so I'd just run that when you're not at work.
#6249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2panny
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
RED ep value go down a bit becouse you have to use two blue gems. If there isnt hot socket bonus its -22ep for epic gems and -17.6 for normal gems.
Don't forget [Shifting Tanzanite]
#6250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Sengiratolom
sorry if this asked before.

i was wondering if it was possible to make a macro that resets when either of these criteria are met: target switching, out of combat, you press shift together with your macro hotkey

and that build into

#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/atack
/castsequence reset=10 Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock

thanks alot
#6251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
Yo!, love the simulator, as do many others. To continue it's growth, do you think you could change the Lootzor export string to use Loot Rank instead? For us challenged folks it also shows the optimum gemming, telling us if socketing str gems all the way through or actually hitting the slots will benefit us overall. And best of all, it's not a dead site.

Last edited by frozndevl : 01/16/08 at 1:16 PM.
#6252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ujai
Originally Posted by SFACER
OK, I think I'm mildly retarded, because I can't work this out and I've read everything including the front pages thoroughly.

I'm an Orc, I have a [Netherbane] and a [Rising Tide] both mongoosed. The other night a [Syphon of the Nathrezim] dropped, and because I have a few T4 armour pieces I didn't want to put myself rock bottom of dkp behind all the Hunters and rogues and wait an enternity to upgrade armour and ,therefore , passed on it.

I also explained I'd lose my Orc racial on the [Netherbane], bit of a cop out really.

So, have any Orc's compared these 2 weapons, what is the overall dps difference. Simulators are blocked for at work, but I guess the proc makes it impossible to measure, but I'd like some opinion/input please.

It's playing on my mind that maybe I should have just grabbed it, have I passed on a minimal or major dps upgrade?
Warrior in my guild told me that the orc racial works even if you only wield 1 axe (MH or OH doesn't matter).
Instantly respecced to hammersmith.
#6253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
[Shifting Tanzanite] is the reason I run H. Steamvaults twice a week. Have only seen one and my rogue stole it.

Anyhow, you shouldn't blindly match sockets "just to mix it up," nor should you ignore all bonuses. Know what the set bonus is offering and weigh the benefit of matching colours agains the loss.

[Master Assassin Wristwraps] gets an Inscribed Noble, because +6 Crit & + 4 Str is better than +8 Str. [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] got 3 BLRs, because +4 agi is not worth the blue.

Picking which items to put your two blues in should also be based on decent set bonuses:

[Midnight Legguards] got two BLRs and a Jagged Cryospase; [Cyclone Helm] got a Sovereign Tanzanite. Result was trading 17 STR for 8 hit rating and a gem activation.

(yeah, i realize i could regem the helm & chest, activate BOTH set bonuses, but -4 Str, +4 CR, +4 Agi isn't worth the -180g to me)

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/16/08 at 1:27 PM.
#6254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Ujai
Warrior in my guild told me that the orc racial works even if you only wield 1 axe (MH or OH doesn't matter).
Instantly respecced to hammersmith.
Of course it works, the racial is expertise when wielding an axe. It doesn't care what hand or whether both hands are axes, but the expertise only gets applied to the hand with the axe. So respeccing to hammer smith doesn't mean you get expertise applied to the dragonstrike just because you have a rising tide in your OH.
#6255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Ujai
Warrior in my guild told me that the orc racial works even if you only wield 1 axe (MH or OH doesn't matter).
Instantly respecced to hammersmith.
If you mean that it was applying to both hands, that was a bug which was fixed. It now works like Malan says above.
#6256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Lujaar
Does anyone have actual data on whether the orc racial applies to both hands if only one hand is an axe? Last time I tried to find real information on this there just wasn't any to be had.

It's a hideously difficult problem to test. You're looking for a 1.25% difference, which would require hours and hours of in-game swing time. You'd have to do the test under conditions where you can reliably distinguish between mainhand and offhand swings - i.e. naked and wielding a lv10 vendor offhand. If someone out there is masochistic enough to have actually done a decent test, I'd love to see the results.
#6257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Well one way to test that I could think of

[e] Nevermind you were talking about a different test.
#6258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Unaz
The only way to tell is to somehow cap your expertise with axes, and then stand in front of a mob hitting it with an axe and something else. The axe should never ever by dodged/parried, but the other hand should be eventually.

A warrior would probably have an easier time hitting the cap with the expertise talent.
#6259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ChaguraED
Originally Posted by Lujaar
Does anyone have actual data on whether the orc racial applies to both hands if only one hand is an axe? Last time I tried to find real information on this there just wasn't any to be had.

It's a hideously difficult problem to test. You're looking for a 1.25% difference, which would require hours and hours of in-game swing time. You'd have to do the test under conditions where you can reliably distinguish between mainhand and offhand swings - i.e. naked and wielding a lv10 vendor offhand. If someone out there is masochistic enough to have actually done a decent test, I'd love to see the results.
if you just went to a Servant in Blasted lands, you'd basically just have to worry about parries and dodges.
Then if you spent an hour with 2 axe, then an hour with an axe and a mace OH, you could look for a 2.5% variance (1.25% dodge and 1.25% parry) in the miss column of most DPS trackers.

Maybe more than an hour would be needed to ensure consistency, but would this be an appropriate test?
#6260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
No, the Blasted Lands Servants are not good for testing much of anything due to the level difference.
#6261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Horus
Deleted from user.
#6262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Lujaar
It's a hideously difficult problem to test. You're looking for a 1.25% difference, which would require hours and hours of in-game swing time. You'd have to do the test under conditions where you can reliably distinguish between mainhand and offhand swings - i.e. naked and wielding a lv10 vendor offhand. If someone out there is masochistic enough to have actually done a decent test, I'd love to see the results.
No, it would be extremely easy to test. Wield any axe, any hammer, same speed. Start WWS. Fight one boss. Look at Dodge percentage on melee attacks. Is it 4.75% -- both weapons getting 1.25% dodge reduction -- or some number between 5 and 6?

Originally Posted by Horus
Orc racial ? Expertise ? Call me stupid but the Orc racial is +1% crit. Did they change something ?
No need for name calling. Yes, on patch day the notes said that orcs got +1% crit, but actually they got 5 Expertise with axes. It was a late-in-the-process change that apparently nobody told the tech writers. I think even the interface got it wrong -- but the mechanics were there.
#6263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Macked
Hey, I've read your guide over quite a few times. Unless I missed it, I don't know how good the 4 set bonus for tier 4 is. It's the one that does 30 damage per weapon on a stormstrike. Here's the link to what I have:

Cyclone Gauntlets

Now, I was wondering if it's worthwhile to replace them with this:

Gauntlets of Sniping

The reason i'm asking is, it would break up my 4 set bonus. All I really want to know is how much the 4 set bonus helps.

From some basic calculations it's 30 damage per weapon, so 60 damage in total. Which would, sine there's a 10 sec cooldown, would be about 6 dps.

Thanks in advance for any help!
#6264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Pitbuller
Yo's sim value t4 4set bonus 8dps or 31ep with base values.
#6265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Originally Posted by frozndevl
Do you think that a shaman could offtank a raid in Kara or did this only work for you because you are very highly geared and it was only a 5-man, granted it was a heroic? I ask because I never really want to turn my enhance shaman into a resto or elemental spec, but having an option to be a tank some of the time would be interesting and offer some variety.
I off tanked the trash between chess and Prince in my S2/S1 gear... with a Merc Axe and a Triptych Shield. But yeah, as mentioned before, in a pinch, offtanking trash if you have poor group make up is fine, i.e. if you just have prince left, and need to clear trash, and don't wanna bring in 2 prot warriors, just for 3 trash mobs.

Last edited by Mengus : 01/16/08 at 11:14 PM.
#6266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2bobxii
Originally Posted by Macked
Hey, I've read your guide over quite a few times. Unless I missed it, I don't know how good the 4 set bonus for tier 4 is. It's the one that does 30 damage per weapon on a stormstrike. Here's the link to what I have:

Cyclone Gauntlets

Now, I was wondering if it's worthwhile to replace them with this:

Gauntlets of Sniping

The reason i'm asking is, it would break up my 4 set bonus. All I really want to know is how much the 4 set bonus helps.
!

Also check out Trickster's Stickyfingers.
#6267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mulgero
Originally Posted by bobxii
With 1st page T5 values those are 2EP worse with 8str + 4str/4crit gem not to mention if you put epic gems to those (due str gems regardless your personal stats sniping should be better in most cases). Also with sniping you'll get "free" 20int and 310 armor.
#6268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Pretty sure Netherbane is better than Syphon for orcs by a decent margin. The orc racial is really good, so that wasn't a cop out. Expertise blows every other stat out of the water once you're in T6 quality gear(can see its ridiculous EP value based off of my gear on the first page.) I'd have used 2x Rising Tide if I could have back when there weren't S3 axes. It's easy to figure out which is better using the simulator though, so I'd just run that when you're not at work.
This got me thinking about how you could calculate this. Is it as simple as multiplying 20 expertise rating (which is 5 expertise from the top of my head) with the EP value of expertise rating, dividing it by the amount of ap that should give you roughly 1 dps, and adding this amount to your weapon dps?

So in this case, using high end expertise values, it's 20*3.18/3, giving 21.2 dps added onto the weapons dps. If this is the case the orc racial is really insanely good.
#6269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nisall
The math looks sound, but 21.2dps is assuming you are standing infront of the mobs. Since mobs can't parry when you attack from behind therefore in general raid dps terms is worth 10.6 dps (still a lot).

Or does the EP value for expertise already take into account you are standing behind the mob?
#6270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Request: Looking for someone to make an easily understandable graphical representation of windfury cooldowns and MH/OH interactions. I had one for awhile but I decided I was doing a bad job with the representation of it.
#6271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Daler
Edit: Sorry, brain's not quite revved up this morning. Pay no attention to me.

Last edited by Daler : 01/17/08 at 12:26 PM. Reason: Need more coffee.
#6272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2hellraiser
Hello, ive got a problem with the totemtwisting macro, atm i use /castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem. but it only spams the wf totem not the agi one ..and the one on the front page does the same ..any help avalible?
#6273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2DarthCliche
Expose Weakness

I ran into a situation recently that has caused some debate among my guild members. In a party with two sword rogues and two hunters, one of whom has three ranks in expose weakness, which air totem should be dropped? The guide says with two sword rogues you drop WF totem but the hunters claim that expose weakness tips the balance in favor of grace of air totem.

Since, to my knowledge, this specific circumstance wasn't addressed in the front page guide, I'd appreciate any information that has been gathered on this scenario that I might have missed in the many following posts. Thank you all for your help, as this guide has been very helpful for me in the past.
#6274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Originally Posted by hellraiser
Hello, ive got a problem with the totemtwisting macro, atm i use /castsequence reset=8/combat/alt Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem. but it only spams the wf totem not the agi one ..and the one on the front page does the same ..any help avalible?
You can use just:

/castsequence reset=8 Windfury Totem,Grace of Air Totem

Note, make sure you don't have extra commas or typos, but should work fine.

If you have issues, get rid of the spaces after commas.

Last edited by Mengus : 01/17/08 at 4:04 PM.
#6275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mengus
Originally Posted by DarthCliche
I ran into a situation recently that has caused some debate among my guild members. In a party with two sword rogues and two hunters, one of whom has three ranks in expose weakness, which air totem should be dropped? The guide says with two sword rogues you drop WF totem but the hunters claim that expose weakness tips the balance in favor of grace of air totem.

Since, to my knowledge, this specific circumstance wasn't addressed in the front page guide, I'd appreciate any information that has been gathered on this scenario that I might have missed in the many following posts. Thank you all for your help, as this guide has been very helpful for me in the past.

You'd probably have to do the math on how much increase in AP the AGI from GoA would give the hunter to the raid, but I'd suspect with 2 combat rogues, WF is still the answer. Worse case, Totem Twist. Any loss in your personal DPS will be made up for in Expose Weakness buff in addition to the increase in DPS that the rogues AND hunters will get from WF + AGI.

Do you not have any DPS Warriors? Not having one in that grp makes me a sand panda Also, something to note with hunters and GoA... Are they even going to be in range of your GoA? If it's a mobile fight, the hunters may not even be getting the AGI buff, especially depending on your spec (too lazy to armory you). So that's another thing to keep in mind.

If you run heavy hunters, you might want to consider a Resto Shaman/Hunter/Hunter/Druid/Misc grp, with the RESTO Shaman dropping AGI. Chances are the Druid might lose some of the AGI buff due to range, but a Resto Shaman will be more easily able to drop a totem a little closer to the melee, while still being in range of hunters.
#6276SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2DarthCliche
It was a strange group make-up for sure and ended up only lasting for one boss before more melee came in, so I hadn't ever had the situation come up before. I just wanted to make sure I'd exhausted every option for determining that the course of action I took was indeed the correct one. My thanks for the quick response.

I don't intend to bother with totem twisting, but I think I'll research it just for personal edification.
#6277SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Mengus
I'm faced with a similar dillema regarding our plethora of hunters.

Unfortunately, they all whine that they want to milk the benefits of the ENH Shaman (AP and AGI), but as mentioned in previous posts, MELEE is the group than ENH Shaman buff up the best.

It's hard to find a spot for a hunter in the Melee Group, as you're ideally running with:
Enh Shaman
Combat Rogue/Ret Pally?
Combat Rogue
Fury Warrior
Feral Druid

We'll often toss a Resto Shaman in that group if there's no ENH available, and rarely would we raid with 2 ENH Shaman, unless it's on farm bosses..

For an Ele/Enh specced additional ENH Shaman, maybe the ideal group would be:

Ele/Enh Shaman
Feral Druid
Hunter Surv
Hunter BM
Shadow Priest
*I think a mutilate rogue might do well there, but Shadow Priest should have at least 3 mana users imo.

Any thoughts on this rare, but possibly interesting possibilty where GoA would be ideal

Last edited by Mengus : 01/17/08 at 4:27 PM. Reason: Nuking Post
#6278SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bargle
Hunters get very little benefit from being grouped with an enhancement shaman compared to any melee class. Unleashed Rage does NOT give ranged AP, so the only benefits they're getting is mana spring, agility (assuming GoA totem--meaning 1 or less rogue/warrior/retadin in the group), and some strenf for their pet. Hunters should never replace melee in an enhancement shaman's group, they should only be filler.
#6279SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Daler
Originally Posted by Mengus
For an Ele/Enh specced additional ENH Shaman, maybe the ideal group would be:

Ele/Enh Shaman
Feral Druid
Hunter Surv
Hunter BM
Shadow Priest
*I think a mutilate rogue might do well there, but Shadow Priest should have at least 3 mana users imo.

Any thoughts on this rare, but possibly interesting possibilty where GoA would be ideal
Is this a joke? There's nothing about that group that's even remotely ideal.

Whether a shaman is restoration sub-spec or elemental sub-spec doesn't change their group synergy capabilities one bit. Stick with the full melee group.
#6280SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Mengus
Originally Posted by Daler
Is this a joke? There's nothing about that group that's even remotely ideal.

Whether a shaman is restoration sub-spec or elemental sub-spec doesn't change their group synergy capabilities one bit. Stick with the full melee group.
This was postulating that you had a 2nd ENH Shaman, and conceivably the Melee grp is already ideal, but you now have a 'ghetto' grp that you don't know how to outfit. Hunters always seem to get the short end of the stick, and they can really put out some dps with a shadowpriest...
#6281SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Daler
Originally Posted by Mengus
This was postulating that you had a 2nd ENH Shaman, and conceivably the Melee grp is already ideal, but you now have a 'ghetto' grp that you don't know how to outfit. Hunters always seem to get the short end of the stick, and they can really put out some dps with a shadowpriest...
If you're serious, then sticking the elem/enh shaman in with hunters that, more likely than not, are going to outrange his 20 yard totems for the majority of the fight would be a bad idea anyways.
#6282SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rapparee
Mengus:
the best filler group if you have two enhancement shaman.... is to stick the crappier enhance in the main tank group.
He's only responsible for keeping windfury (agi if you have a bear MT), str and UR up on the tanks.

That gives everyone else in the raid a larger threat gap. I may be missing something here, but any 10man and up, the 2nd enhance shaman best serves the raid by buffing the tanks.
#6283SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Bragor
Very bad group syngraty (Sp ?) there. Best shaman to put with hunters is always a resto shaman. They benefit more from his mana tide then our str totem + unleashed rage give to his pet plus he's gonna be dropping agility totem for them.

Best group for Enhancement shaman to be utilized to his fullest potential is:

1x Fury Warrior.
2x Combat Rogues.
1x Enh. Shaman.
1x Hybrid Buffer (Feral Druid/Retri Pala/Another Warrior).

And Yes my current guild runs with a standard Retri paladin & we find them invaluable in healing/Mana intensive fights.
#6284SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2• Sebudai
First of all, hunters don't need a shadow priest to do great damage. Second of all, how ironic that these questions are popping up just a day after I was complaining about them in the EJBB.

Rogue/Rogue/Hunter/Hunter/Shaman is a retarded group. And personally, I'm not interested in theorycrafting the exact math for it. Do it yourself. I don't even have to theorycraft for that group though, because the answer is obvious. One of those hunters is Survival, drop GoA. Duh. Or you could just totem twist. There are a hundred different retarded group compositions we could theorycraft for, but they're retarded, so we don't. Are we really going to get questions like these every time some guild has wonky attendance and has to build a weird group?

Non-retarded group compositions:

Rogue/Feral Druid/Retribution Paladin
Rogue
Rogue
Arms/Fury Warrior
Enhancement Shaman

BM Hunter
BM Hunter
Survival Hunter
Feral Druid
Restoration Shaman

If you have a 2nd Enhancement shaman, put him in the MT group unless you don't have a restoration shaman for the hunter group.
#6285SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tristan
Originally Posted by Sengiratolom
sorry if this asked before.

i was wondering if it was possible to make a macro that resets when either of these criteria are met: target switching, out of combat, you press shift together with your macro hotkey

and that build into

#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/atack
/castsequence reset=10 Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock

thanks alot
This:
#showtooltip
#show Stormstrike
/startattack
/castsequence reset=10/shift/combat/target Flame Shock, Stormstrike, Earth Shock
Should work, not sure how it's affected by having the attack start before the cast sequence but I guess you'll have to test it with and without.
#6286SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zula
Hello. I always read this thread when i have a doubt, and usually solves it.

Now according to some other sites (maxdps) the best pieces for enha shaman, (i'm trying ssc and tk with my guild) are in leather, it's this probably true?
#6287SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Myul
The difference between wearing full T6 to best (leather) pieces around is a difference of around 30 attack power and 3% crit (rounded).

Have a look by yourself and check > this profile <.

Putting the values in Yo's Sim (battleshout instead of lotp, 19 shocks pm), T6 is around 1475 dps and the "best" gear avaible around 1550 dps, a possible gain of 5%.

If i would have to make the choice again between letting all rogues/ferals hating me for bidding on leather and simply pick up 5 tokens i would chose the tokens these days.
Stamina heavy, a lot of int to backup unlucky shamanistic rage usage and the droprate is fixed. Compare it to all the mail and leather random drops, i was very lucky to pick up my gear in a small time window.

Last edited by Myul : 01/18/08 at 9:53 AM. Reason: added dps numbers
#6288SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Zula
Deleted

Last edited by Zula : 01/18/08 at 10:19 AM.
#6289SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Myul
Well, that's easy. Put your stats into Yo's Sim and get your AEP. Then do the maths.

[Master Assassin Wristwraps] with a 4 str/4 crit gem:
50 ap
04 str
24 crit
17 agi

[Vindicator's Linked Bracers] with a 8 str gem:
33 str
21 crit

Crit is slighty less worthy then ap point per point. But the badges ones will net you much more crit.

Don't try to compare %, simply compare the aep.

For simply compare, use ap = 1, crit = 2, agi = 1.8 and str = 2.2.

50 ap * 1 = 50
04 str * 2.2 = 8.8
24 crit * 2 = 48
17 agi * 1.8 = 30.6
137.6 together.

33 str * 2.2 = 72.6
21 crit * 2 = 42
114.6 together

Difference of 23 or over 16%.

Hint: It's [ ITEM]ITEMNAME[ /ITEM].
#6290SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blazingwater
Say you have only 2 palidins in your raid. Do you take salv and kings or salv and might? I know might gives far more AP, but does the increased agil make up for the lost AP? I guess it really depends on your gear, but it would help me if you could answer this.
#6291SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Myul
Blessing of Might is 220 ap untalentated, 264 with talents.

your strength / 10 * 2.2 + your agility / 10 * 2.

With SoE, Roosted Clefthoof, MotW and your base statpoints you can break 600 strength and maybe 300 agility.

That's only less then 200 aep. If you don't need the +stamina and don't want a slighty bigger manapool, go for blessing of might.
#6292SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zula
according to Yo's simulator the ep value is different from the one Kenji provides in first post,
High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)
Yo's gives:
AP: 1
Crit: 1.29
Hit rating: 1,48
haste rating: 1.34
Armor Penetration: 0.23
strenght: 2.2
Agility:1.25
Expertise:2.71

So isn't Yo's no more good? in Yo's Hit>haste>Crit in this:Haste>Crit>hit
#6293SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
As a guess, you didn't input buffs correctly or run the sim nearly long enough, not to mention that those numbers are an average of 7 10k hour sim runs.
#6294SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Zula
Ok i use lootrank with the number you Provide, feel good
#6295SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Tambard
Recently, I have just stopped evaluating hit on items to find the best in the game, stats-wise. Given this, I've come to find myself at 68 hit. Wednesday night, [Forest Prowler's Helm] replaced my [Skyshatter Cover] (down to 48 hit). Thursday night I was a bit worried, so I used [Spicy Hot Talbuk], and I jumped from being around 7-8 on damage to Top 4 on every fight in Hyjal. Next week, I'm going to use [Roasted Clefthoof] and compare results... I noticed a few pages back that people were discouraging others from dropping below 100 hit, so I just thought I'd throw up a realtime counterpoint to those claims. I was also wondering if anyone else pretty much itemizes via pure stats or if they use the somewhat lofty hit values. Seems to me that the op contradicts itself in valuing hit so high, when it clearly states not to choose hit over stats.

Last edited by Tambard : 01/18/08 at 3:15 PM. Reason: Clarity
#6296SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tambard
Seems to me that the op contradicts itself in valuing hit so high, when it clearly states not to choose hit over stats.
Incorrect, you are misreading things.
#6297SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2jwwpua
@Yo: Resilience option for simulator?

@Yo:

Hey I've been using your simulator and it's really helpful. I was wondering if you would add an option to input target resilience, so that I could see how my stat weights in PvP. It would also help choose Mongoose or Executioner on 1 or both weapons.

On the one hand, 400 resilience will decrease chance to crit by ~10%, making me think it would value crit higher, but on the other hand, it decreases crit damage by ~20%, so I'm not sure how it would weigh out.

Anyways, just wondering, I understand it's for PvE dps but figured I'd ask!



thanks
#6298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Chutoi
Hey guys--I seem to have missed (if it is written up) what conversion rate may be used to compare EP (for stat weight comparisons) to actual dps. Thus, is a 10 EP upgrade a 1 dps upgrade? I suppose my question relates to how much of an upgrade a 2 EP item might actually be in terms of damage output.

Thanks, and sorry if I just missed it!

Chutoi

Last edited by Chutoi : 01/18/08 at 4:51 PM.
#6299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2jwwpua
Originally Posted by Chutoi
Hey guys--I seem to have missed (if it is writting up) what conversion rate may be used to compare EP (for stat weight comparisons) to actual dps. Thus, is a 10 EP upgrade a 1 dps upgrade? I suppose my question related to how much of an upgrade a 2 EP item might actually be in terms of damage output.

Thanks, and sorry if I just missed it!

Chutoi
If you choose the option "Find EP Weights", it will show you on the top right how much 1 EP equals in terms of DPS.

For example, mine shows 1 EP = 0.2333 DPS. So 10 EP = 2.333 DPS for me.
#6300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Chutoi
Thanks, Jwwpua. Apparently, I'm slower than normal today. I didn't see that!
#6301SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Chutoi
Thanks, Jwwpua. Apparently, I'm slower than normal today. I didn't see that!
#6302SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Nobunda
Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????

Last edited by Nobunda : 01/18/08 at 6:38 PM.
#6303SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Heroism will definitely benefit your warrior more. (Assuming he's a good player) More swings for your warrior = more rage = more abilities being used, especially when it comes to executes.
#6304SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Nobunda
Originally Posted by Malan
Heroism will definitely benefit your warrior more. (Assuming he's a good player) More swings for your warrior = more rage = more abilities being used, especially when it comes to executes.

Then im curious as to why they dont stack more haste... Guess I need to hit him up and see why. Thanks for pointing me in a direction, as I tend to argue with myself on certain matters especially when I have no knowledge of other classes.
#6305SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Freyalis
This is just an informed guess, but your warrior probably isnt stacking a lot of haste as past a certain point is has a negative impact on their Slam cycle. With some weapons, just flurry is enough to put them at an ideal attack speed where slam slots in between auto attacks without clipping them. Heroism however is such a huge buff that it would still be a DPS increase even if it takes your warrior past that point.
#6306SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2ChaguraED
hmm?

Originally Posted by Nobunda
Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????
Correct me if I'm wrong:

They are moving the Enhancement Shaman out of the melee group, so that the Ele shaman can be in it to BL?
Is this just for one Pull only while yours is on Cooldown? or a permanent thing?
#6307SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Katrael
Originally Posted by Nobunda
Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????
This sounds highly situational to me, at best. Most 2h warriors are better off keeping to they're normal slam rotations, even below 20%, so it's mostly a question of which of you has better personal DPS.
#6308SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Illundai
Originally Posted by ChaguraED
Correct me if I'm wrong:

They are moving the Enhancement Shaman out of the melee group, so that the Ele shaman can be in it to BL?
Is this just for one Pull only while yours is on Cooldown? or a permanent thing?
Rotating the lusts I suppose. Once the Enh Shaman's lust runs out, you put another shaman in there, he uses BL and then the enhancement shaman goes back.
#6309SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Illundai
Rotating the lusts I suppose. Once the Enh Shaman's lust runs out, you put another shaman in there, he uses BL and then the enhancement shaman goes back.
Exactly. For melee-centric fights like Kaz'rogal and Archimonde, rotating heroisms can be very effective, as well as the massive range on the buff itself.
#6310SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Nobunda
Then im curious as to why they dont stack more haste... Guess I need to hit him up and see why. Thanks for pointing me in a direction, as I tend to argue with myself on certain matters especially when I have no knowledge of other classes.
Improving slam beyond 1.5 seconds cast time is useless since you can't press the button faster than the global cooldown. Just as shaman value different stats higher than others, warriors value crit and AP much much higher than other stats.
#6311SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Wraithlin
Which asks the question, how much does heroism help a slam warrior.
Even using a 3.8 weapon, with both heroism and flurry up the warriors swing drops below 3seconds (2GCD's) so he will start clipping his autoattacks. I would be interested to see some simulation math on this as a friend of mine recently passed on DST for me for this very reason; he is respeccing Slam DPS.

Does anyone know if the cast time on slam is speeded up by heroism ?
Clipping wouldnt be anything like as severe as when the term is applied to hunters, but it would still cut into the dps gain significantly. Even without lag, (i.e. with perfec ttimings) the rotations would either look like this:

0 Swing + instant
1.5 Slam
2.8 <Clipped autoattack.
3.0 Slam finishes casting.

Or
0 Swing + instant
1.5 Slam
2.5 Slam finishes casting
2.8 Swing
3.0 Instant
4.5 Start casting slam
5.5 Slam casts
5.6 Autoattack
6.0 Instant
7.5 Start casting slam
8.4 < Clipped autoattack
8.5 Slam finishes casting+ Autoattack
9.0 Instant
10.5 start casting slam
11.2 < Clipped autoattack
11.5 Slam
#6312SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Wraithlin
Ignore, my search-fu was weak.
#6313SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Leonina
I am a kara-running enhance with resto subspec.
I have my 9% +hit from talents and only 84 hitrating from gear.

I thought that with the 9% hit from talents, my windfury and stormstrike wouldn't be dodged ? or parried if I'm stupid enough to stay in front of a mob.. Have I completly misunderstood the 9% ?
#6314SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Wraithlin
Hit only counters misses, dodge and parry are separate and only affected by expertise rating.
#6315SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Leonina
Thanks alot, that eases up a burden for me.
#6316SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolfsoka
Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but its been bothering me for a bit.

I've been looking into replacing my Decapitator in my main-hand with one of the Gladiator's Cleaver's from Honor, because the cleaver has better overall stats. I would much rather not do Arena, so its not an option. Anyway, I am curious as to how important damage range is to a shaman. The Gladiator's Cleaver is 189 to 285 damage range, will Decapitator is 167 to 312. Would I notice a particular large decrease in damage done?

I ask this because Yo's simulator doesn't seem to take damage ranges into account.
#6317SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Shha
Assuming ideal rotations for Slam heroism is still usually a bit wasted. Slowest realistic weapon would be Torch which is at 3.68 swing (when you calculate the haste on it). Flurry is generally 100% for a 2h (unlike DW, because of huge ratio of skills:swings). Assuming that slow of a weapon and no haste gear , swing with 3/5 flurry is at 3.2. Lust drops it to 2,46 which is below the theoretical "2.5" mark. Count some lag and you get more of a waste.

Same way faster weapons , that are usually prefered - like Cat's Edge at 3.5 drops to 3.04 speed with flurry . With some moderate amount of haste (lets say 1 piece for around 30) you can get more or less to 3.0. Lust drops it to 2.3 , which is a considerable waste.

Also, if the warrior isnt the only 2h warrior in the raid (we have 2), there is a chance he might be specced 5/5 flurry, or even full 2h fury. The waste can get pretty big there (5/5 flurry+1 haste piece+ cat's edge basically puts you at 2.75 speed, so heroism just cant have more then around 8% effect on your dps - even NOT counting lag.

To sum it up - it depends. The heroism effect on warriors varies from around 0-8% (5/5 flurry, 3.5 speed weapon) to 25-30% (Torch/no haste gear/3/5 flurry). The numbers range depends on your lag. Its pretty obvious its worth it to switch the warrior out in 1st case, and to switch the shaman in latter.

(speculations). As a raid leader i would probably look at weapon speed and set it around 3.0 flurried speed as the "limit" where the lust rotations would switch from prefering warrior to the shaman.
#6318SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Rhagok
Umm well I don´t see why we are discussing warriors here and their Slam Rotations and or HAste gear selections.

Anyway You should consider that if the second Bloodlust from the Ele / Resto Shaman is during the Execute phase then again the MS Warrior will gain a huge benefit over the Enh Shaman. I mean I usually kill all of our Warriors and most of the time one of our Rogues in DpS but the numbers which Warriors do put out in Execute Range is just totally crazy I mean a well geared Warrior puts out about 2,5 - 3k DpS during Execute. ^^ So well I don´t quite beat him there :P
#6319SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Wraithlin
Because the gains to a slam warrior from heroism are:
Slightly faster cast on Slam
Faster swing for white damage

The swing timer leads to a negligable gain in dps because it is dropping below the GCD, and so doesnt allow the warrior to use any more skill than he could anyway. So, if the faster swing time doesnt actually translate into more swings because of clipping, then the gain from heroism for the slam warrior is small/none and you would do better to swap the resto shaman for the slam warrior, heroism, and swap them back.

Last edited by Wraithlin : 01/19/08 at 11:02 AM.
#6320SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Crystael
I'm leveling an enhancement-specced Shaman at the moment and I was wondering at what point it's worth switching to dual wield. Intuition would tell me to wait til I've got 3/3 dual wield specialization; is this correct or should I start dual wielding as soon as I can?
#6321SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Wolfsoka
Forgive me if this question has already been asked, but its been bothering me for a bit.

I've been looking into replacing my Decapitator in my main-hand with one of the Gladiator's Cleaver's from Honor, because the cleaver has better overall stats. I would much rather not do Arena, so its not an option. Anyway, I am curious as to how important damage range is to a shaman. The Gladiator's Cleaver is 189 to 285 damage range, will Decapitator is 167 to 312. Would I notice a particular large decrease in damage done?

I ask this because Yo's simulator doesn't seem to take damage ranges into account.
There's nothing special about damage ranges for us, so weapon choices boil down to:

dps
weapon speed
stats

don't worry about a 100 - 200 weapon versus a 50 -250 weapon. They'll do identical damage over time.
#6322SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Wolfsoka
Originally Posted by Disquette
There's nothing special about damage ranges for us, so weapon choices boil down to:

dps
weapon speed
stats

don't worry about a 100 - 200 weapon versus a 50 -250 weapon. They'll do identical damage over time.
Thanks

So would the stats on Gladiator's outweigh the slightly lower DPS compared to Decapitator?

Well I suppose I could see for myself by comparing EP values.

Last edited by Wolfsoka : 01/19/08 at 1:23 PM.
#6323SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2automatica
Originally Posted by Wolfsoka
Thanks

So would the stats on Gladiator's outweigh the slightly lower DPS compared to Decapitator?

Well I suppose I could see for myself by comparing EP values.
Yes and yes.
#6324SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Blazingwater
Any chance you can post spell rotations with the 0/45/16 build and the 16/45/0 build? I know what my spell roation is with the resto sub-spec, but I'm sure people would want to know a roation with totem-twisting or the ele sub-spec. Thanks in advance.
#6325SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2mek
Originally Posted by Crystael
I'm leveling an enhancement-specced Shaman at the moment and I was wondering at what point it's worth switching to dual wield. Intuition would tell me to wait til I've got 3/3 dual wield specialization; is this correct or should I start dual wielding as soon as I can?
As soon as you can.
#6326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
Any chance you can post spell rotations with the 0/45/16 build and the 16/45/0 build? I know what my spell roation is with the resto sub-spec, but I'm sure people would want to know a roation with totem-twisting or the ele sub-spec. Thanks in advance.
This is still being worked out and hotly debated in the other thread.
#6327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2qualia
Originally Posted by Nobunda
Something that has been tugging at me lately... and my lack of knowledge with warriors has kept me from saying anything to our dps lead.

My question is... Does Heroism benefit a MS warrior more or a Enhancement shaman? Im always the one getting moved to another group for our resto/ele shamans to pop there heroism for melee. If our warrior was DW then I would have no beef as it makes as much sense as me having it as well. However having a 3.5+ weapon swing faster for 45sec doesnt make as much sense as having two 2.6-2.8 weapons recieving the same love. Anyone know of a way I could calculate his DPS gain to our DPS gain from heroism? Or am I just being selfish and shouldnt even bother????
For us, the Feral is the one that gets switched out. He benefits the least from BL I think.
#6328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Sebudai
I always swap out the feral druid for Bloodlust. Or if the group has 3 rogues instead of 2 rogues and a druid I'll swap myself out. I don't like swapping our warrior out because it removes Battle Shout(at least temporarily.) As far as I know Bloodlust is still great for an arms warrior. It affects the cast time of Slam and reduces the global cooldown.
#6329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Sebudai
reduces the global cooldown.
This was proven to be false a few months ago. It does not change the GCD.
#6330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Atren
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
#6331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Wraithlin
No, no, NO!
It has been proven, and it is a simple test, that bloodlust does not change the GCD.
#6332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Galine
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close, and was starting to think on how to improve my gear. The only thing I'm hesitant on is giving up my pure str stats for gear with higher AP - since, in raids and almost every group I am in, I have kings and salvation (we have a hell of a lot of paladins). Once I get my Vinidicator's neck with a str/crit gem, I'll be gemming up my T4 shoulders with an additional 8str gem. Also as was mentioned earlier, the T4 str bonus to the totem makes a huge difference with me, and I find that pretty valuable. What are your opinions on this and should I worry that much about the T4 bonus, or just go with the rogue badge rewards (other than the boots as I'm a pretty big fashion whore and they look really dumb on females).

Edit: Spelling... these keyboards at work suck, lol.

Edit 2: Forgot to mention, we're currently stuck at a cleared Kara, and can clear the first chest in ZA, with the 4 avatars down, as well as High King Maulgar... so, that's pretty much where my gear choices generally fall in to place.

Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 2:43 PM.
#6333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Atren
As far as i know it does reduce global cooldown, but normal haste items do not affect it.
We have a fair amount of evidence showing that it does not affect the GCD.

If you have proof to the contrary, document it and post it, otherwise stop posting claims like that.
#6334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rava
Originally Posted by Galine
Hey, I've been following the topic pretty close
Really? Admittedly I haven't been keeping up much on the thread but I can recall multiple discussions of the T4 2 piece and it's value within the last week. I'm glad that you found the thread and are trying to improve your character, but please take some time to use the "search this thread" function in the top right hand corner so the same question doesn't get asked for the thousandth time. If anything is unclear after that I'd be happy to help and answer you to the best of my ability.
#6335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
Galine
Edit: Yeah, I did find something, more or less gear suggestions for replacements and values for the set bonus which I wasn't exactly aiming for. The T4 set bonus wasn't really the main factor I was trying to address, more along the lines of the potential gain from kings. Guess I'll have to try the simulator later to see how much potential loss/gain I get from swapping out my other Str gear for AP pieces... too bad the site can't be proxied to at work. Math is really not my friend, at all... heh.

I'll post again if I'm confused, haha... thanks =)

Last edited by Galine : 01/20/08 at 6:17 PM. Reason: I'm dumb.
#6336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Itchen
Odd AEP numbers

My alt is an Enhancement Shaman and I am currently working on making him raid worthy on the off chance we end up needing another. I have been following this thread since before I even rolled him. My gear is middle of the road. Some Kara pieces, Ebon Netherscale Breastplate, Swiftstrike Shoulders and several instance blues. I was using Yo's simulator to try obtain my current AEP values. I got some very unexpected results based on what I was expecting from the first post.
  • Crit - 1.4
  • Hit - 1.19
  • Haste - 1.19
  • Armor Penetration - 0.19
  • Agility 1.24
  • Expertise Rating - 2.21
I wanted to find out if these numbers were accurate or if I had entered something wrongly on the simulator. I took paper doll AP, Hit rating converted to % + 9% from talents, Haste % went with the base 4400 Boss armor. I ran the simulation with no buffs besides GoA and SoE. Since the DPS I got was substantially higher then what I see in game and I had the odd AEP values I feel like I must have done something wrong.


I'll include an armory link for reference. I know I can get better DPS by switching some +4 Str +6 Stam gems out, and that I need to get an enchant on my off-hand. Kaltad
#6337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Wolflord
That makes sense, your AP is still pretty low. The low AEP is really just highly rating AP/str. Generally AP is universally useful and its only the difference between hit/crit/haste that really determines gear choices. You really dont find crit/hit becoming highly rated until over 1600 base AP.
#6338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Itchen
Thank you for the quick reply. That makes sense. I just thought it was a little odd considering the entry level AEP's given on the front page. Now that I think about it, a lot of the shamans (starting Kara) I've been seeing around have AP equivalent to mine but with much lower crit and hit ratings. So the simulator is basically telling me that crit/Agi is becoming much less valuable as I approach 100% UR uptime and 75% flurried hits.
#6339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ Toots Hepcat
The added value of crit from proc uptimes is less than the value of the dps from more critical strikes. It's not going to
cause a major fall-off in the value of any one stat.

It all comes down to buffs -- most of our simulations include BS and BoM, which together add 667 AP. You, in turn, have added 3.52% crit that most simulations don't factor in. More crit and less AP will devalue crit and value AP, which is exactly what you see.

People tend to ignore buffs when they list their simulation values, and I wish they'd stop it. Buffs change EP values dramatically.

Your stats aren't that strange, and if this shaman is for farming or PUGs you've actually got the right EP numbers in front of you.
#6340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tuili
Fast FT dagger OH

Yeah like we haven't discussed this before...

I use the gladiator 2.60 1h mace (~91dps) as main hand with windfury and until I get another one for my off-hand I'm using a 1.8 ~80dps dagger with flametongue. Now, what if I went for the 1.4 ~91dps dagger instead?

The WF proc is 20% which means that after the 3 sec CD I will get a WF effect every five hits. Here's the thing: with 2.6 speed I will only "waste" one hit during the CD and that will make an average of 6 hits per proc. I've used recount (ace2 addon) and found that my average WF proc is around 1300 dmg (don't laugh^^) Now six hits with flurry = 6x1.82 sec = 10,92 sec average per WF proc which means WF will add 1300/10,92 = 119 dps

My flametongue off-hand adds roughly 80 dps (recount). Total dps buff for my current WF / FT ~ 200dps

If I go for WF / WF instead this will happen: After a proc I will have three hits within the CD (if MH procs it'll be OH, MH, OH)

The WF proc rate when dual wielding is supposedly 36% (according to this thread) which means I will have 3 hits within the CD then an average of three hits before I get another proc. That next proc has a 50% chance of being a MH one. If it's an OH proc it'll be much lower (~700 says my recount when using the mace in OH).

(1300+700) / 2 = 1000 average proc when dual wielding. This will happen every sixth hit (3 hits within CD, three on average for the proc). With flurry that's 6x0,91 = 5,46 sec. Rendering the total WF dps buff 1000/5,46 = 183 dps

Because of the fact that the off-hand eats half of the procs it seems better to just use WF on the MH and always get the 100% WF effect and use FT on a fast OH instead.

Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better.
#6341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
2



Extra



Hits

If you could imbue your johnson with Windfury, it would boost your DPS, even if it stole both MH and OH procs.
#6342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Dariusx
dont forget about stormstrike - which will have much more benefit if your 2 weapons are slow.
and the better your gear the better wf will scale - ft not.
#6343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2drats
Originally Posted by Tuili
Reflections on this? I'm not saying this is correct, but I'd like someone to tell me exactly why WF WF is sooooo much better.
If by 'someone' you mean 'section IV of the original post', then here's the link: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

--

Just out of curiosity, does the WF cooldown affect WF totem hits as well? If not, my idea is that someone could make a mod to remove MH WF during the cooldown and drop the totem, then remove the totem buff and reapply WF when the cooldown was over. Just for fun that is, I don't think it would be feasible at all in raids.
#6344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Ilmatar
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post )
#6345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2rava
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
Windfury Totem is only 1 extra hit. If it applied to the off hand it might be worthwhile, but it's been tested and it's no good (see 1st post )
That isn't what he's saying. He is saying that inside of the 3 second cooldown remove WF from your weapon and drop a WF totem, then reapply WF after the cooldown is up.
#6346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
This is an insane concept that infuriates and intrigues me.

Some things to think about
- you'd have to not be GCD when WF procs.
- you'd have to be within the rare window where you neither have an SS coming, a shock coming or a totem to drop in the next 3s, else you'd be reducing your damage from other areas.
- you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried.
- you'd have to be able to manage these two actions and their GCDs within the confines of a 3s window.

My cycle is complex enough as is, thanks.

Also, fast daggers suck, mate. Just ask all the fast dagger shamans I've annihilated on the meters. Your math is flawed in a couple ways...for one, 3 hits between WF procs is not the average with dual WF. Your chance of getting WF the first hit outside of the cooldown is 36%, in one of the first two hits is 59%. Thus your "average" hits before proc outside the cooldown is going to be less than 2. For another, single WF has an outside of CD proc chance of 20%. By going WF/FT, you may actually decrease the WF dps from your main hand.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/21/08 at 6:23 PM.
#6347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Tuili
Ok I'm convinced. I'll just go grind those extra nine thou honor I need for the unfairly expensive off-hand (one hand) mace Thank you for the info!
#6348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2♦ stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
- you'd have to macro the "clicking off" of the totem's buff along the re-application of the standard buff. Assuming it CAN be clicked off; I've never tried.
It can be clicked off. I've made the mistake of forgetting to reapply the weapon buffs while clearing trash before. Drop my totems and see the phase "Extra Attack!" on SCT. Remove totems, click off buff, apply real buffs, redrop totems.

But as Ilmatar said, the totem is only 1 attack, the weapon buff is 2. More damage = better, that's the whole point of this thread, right? If the totem affected the offhand, it would still be worse than the weapon buff.
#6349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Stopokingme
Originally Posted by stabbymcgee
Remove totems, click off buff, apply real buffs, redrop totems.
You can also just click off the buff and just recast windfury weapon fast.
#6350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Kirion
Originally Posted by Stopokingme
You can also just click off the buff and just recast windfury weapon fast.
It's easier to use macro with /cancelaura. I don't think you can cast weapon buff fast enough without macro and i don't know if you can cancel wf totem buff.
#6351SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2Totalitar
Has anybody done the math on how good the [Skyguard Silver Cross] is on Hyjal trash like versus a [Bloodlust Brooch]?
#6352SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.2◊ Malan
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#6376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Illundai
With my stat weights [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is a lot better than [Boneweave Girdle]. I didn't double check with your stat weights, but they are only a little different from mine, so I'm pretty sure it'd come out on top for you too?
Yes, with his values...

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] = 237.52 EP
[Boneweave Girdle] = 211.71 ((I was generous and included hit))
#6377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Tambard
As I had previously noted, I'm not a big fan of including hit... So, I've been investigating the Haste Options, and the Bindings of Lightning Reflexes are 140.07 with your weights... And Insidious Bands are 148.22 with the hit included (20.52 of which is hit)... I dunno if the 12.35 EP worth of pure stats is worth losing for the hit.
Why aren't you a fan of including hit?

Originally Posted by Paradox
I included the socket bonus in my math, is it still not better? I must be missing something.
Lets see if I'm messing up.

Insidious Bands
28 Agility: (1.67*28) = 46.76 EP
Yellow Socket 5 Str/5 CR: (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
Socket Bonus: 2 Agi (2*1.67) = 3.34 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (46.76) + (19.6) + (3.34) + (20.52) + (58) = 148.22 EP

Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket 5 Str/5 CR: (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 12:38 PM.
#6378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.
#6379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Not messing it up, Deadly Cuffs come out by 2 AEP for me too. I have picked them up, just not quite sure what gem to put in it (we're running low on Pyrestones T_T)
#6380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Illundai
With my stat weights [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] is a lot better than [Boneweave Girdle]. I didn't double check with your stat weights, but they are only a little different from mine, so I'm pretty sure it'd come out on top for you too?
Ah yeah, Vashj belt is the best, sorry. I copied my list over from my guilds forums and since we don't raid SSC anymore I didn't include that belt on my original list. Edited my post to include it.

Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I let it be at 4400(as standard), and I can't really remember the EP for it, but I have -399 ArPen on my gear, can't run the sim from here.
It should be lower than that. I put it at 2930, which is the fully debuffed average between the two common boss armor values.
#6381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Why aren't you a fan of including hit?
No, you're 100% right in your calculations. I, personally, prefer to calculate based on pure stats. If they're within approx 4 or 5 EP, depending on the item, AND one has hit on it, I'll go with that; however, I don't like the concept of sacrificing 12-15 EP for Hit, when it doesn't make much of a difference.
#6382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Jamor
Originally Posted by Tambard
Yes, with his values...

[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] = 237.52 EP
[Boneweave Girdle] = 211.71 ((I was generous and included hit))

Do you seriously not weight hit when you are comparing loot for yourself?


EDIT: Sorry, you answered the question when I had the compose message up.

IMO you discount hit a little too much. White damage still makes a up a huge chunk of damage for a shaman.

Last edited by Jamor : 01/22/08 at 12:42 PM.
#6383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.
I wouldn't, but I'm sure a lot of people would. If you use a Spinel instead then Deadly Cuffs end up being .46 EP better than Insidious Bands.

Originally Posted by Tambard
No, you're 100% right in your calculations. I, personally, prefer to calculate based on pure stats. If they're within approx 4 or 5 EP, depending on the item, AND one has hit on it, I'll go with that; however, I don't like the concept of sacrificing 12-15 EP for Hit, when it doesn't make much of a difference.
There's nothing wrong with hit rating and it would be a mistake to discount it. It has an EP value just like any other stat. It's just barely worse than crit rating for me(as you can see by the EP values I posted previously.)

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 12:50 PM.
#6384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
I don't understand why you'd socket that with a pyrestone. It's simply better to go with the spinel and no stamina. As has been stated multiple times; stamina is a nonissue for most t6 content since we have enough on our 'best' gear as is.
#6385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tambard
Originally Posted by Jamor
Do you seriously not weight hit when you are comparing loot for yourself?


EDIT: Sorry, you answered the question when I had the compose message up.

IMO you discount hit a little too much. White damage still makes a up a huge chunk of damage for a shaman.
I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-

Edit: I still have a lot of the same final gear choices.

[Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
[Choker of Endless Nightmares]
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger] or [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator] ((For non-LWers))
[Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
[Midnight Chestguard]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Fists of Mukoa] / [Grips of Damnation]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (([Don Alejandro's Money Belt] otherwise))
[Bow-stitched Leggings]
[Shadowmaster's Boots]
[Signet of Primal Wrath]
[Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring]
[Madness of the Betrayer]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Dragonstrike] / [Syphon of the Nathrezim] ((I don't like to PvP))
[Syphon of the Nathrezim]
[Stonebreaker's Totem]

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 1:36 PM.
#6386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Dukanull
I don't understand why you'd socket that with a pyrestone. It's simply better to go with the spinel and no stamina. As has been stated multiple times; stamina is a nonissue for most t6 content since we have enough on our 'best' gear as is.
There's a few reasons I personally didn't socket mine with a Spinel, but I agree most people will. Considering the list I posted is supposed to be the "best" gear as far as damage output, I'll go ahead and switch it to include Deadly Cuffs.

Originally Posted by Tambard
I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-
That is some very flawed logic. What makes you think hit is being highly over-valued?
#6387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Strygwyr
For Tambards list, you might want to include that Wicked Edge of Planes and Rising Tide would be better for an orc shaman.
#6388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
I've updated my original list once again to include [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] since I had missed those. The list should be completely accurate now.
#6389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Tambard
I've been raiding with under 100 hit since I set foot in BT, and now at 48 hit, I'm landing in the Top 4 on pretty much every melee friendly encounter. I feel hit is being highly over-valued in the stat weights, so rather than take the time and find a decent value for it, I just ignore it, and my DPS has been steadily climbing. In my final item selection, I will have 75 hit, and that's more than enough for me. -shrug-

Edit: I still have a lot of the same final gear choices.

[Mail of Fevered Pursuit]
I know you're undervaluing hit, but even so how do you get the Mail of Fevered Pursuit over [Midnight Chestguard]? Due to the heavy itemweight of MP5, my EP for the Mail is considerably lower than the Chestguard.
#6390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tambard
Originally Posted by Sebudai
There's a few reasons I personally didn't socket mine with a Spinel, but I agree most people will. Considering the list I posted is supposed to be the "best" gear as far as damage output, I'll go ahead and switch it to include Deadly Cuffs.


That is some very flawed logic. What makes you think hit is being highly over-valued?
The T6 stat values put hit even with Agility. If you're going to tell me that I should be evaluating gear with a stat that is widely regarded as a lesser stat to a decent one, you're crazy. I'm not saying that I'd go all crazy and run with no hit whatsoever. I'd prefer to be around 75 (But I cannot seem to get the hit drops to come). There's no reason to do say...


Softstep Boots of Tracking
AGI = 45.09
Crit = 44.72
AP = 76
Hit = 29.07
____________
194.88 (165.81)


Shadowmaster's Boots
AGI = 50.1
Sockets + Bonues = 26.76
Crit = 29.24
AP = 76
____________
182.1


You're gonna sacrifice 16+ EP for some hit? I'm not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However, with your weights, even without hit... Midnight Chestguard is a better choice...
(My original Math on this was done before established weights came out for T6)

Midnight Chestguard
Sockets+Bonus = 60.6
Hit = 49.59
Crit = 79.12
AP = 106
_______________
295.31 ((245.72))

Mail of Fevered Pursuit
AGI = 81.83
Crit = 49.88
AP = 108
_______________
239.71

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 1:40 PM.
#6391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Ok, here's a question for you: Would you take 1 strength over 20 hit rating? Remember, strength is our best stat and hit rating is a "lesser stat".
#6392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tambard
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Ok, here's a question for you: Would you take 1 strength over 20 hit rating? Remember, strength is our best stat and hit rating is a "lesser stat".
It would depend on the outcome of the stats... If the difference was just that 2.2 EP vs. the 20 hit... No, I wouldn't. But to lose 16 EP for 17 hit... Not worth it in my opinion. If I were to give hit a value and try to evaluate stats with it... I'd say MAYBE... .75 But for me, I really just look at the outcome. If an item is way ahead in raw stats, I'm not giving that up for hit. I just don't see any justification for it.

Another Note: In my final setup (if you're using Shoulderpads of the Stranger), a Shaman would have 9 Expertise and 124 Hit. which even the pro-hit fiends would enjoy.


Edit: I'm not saying that I want to avoid hit at all costs... I'm just saying that sacrificing a large portion of stats for hit seems highly flawed to me. Especially when I've experienced in the game how little having low hit effects my DPS.

Or check out the belt you're using due to lack of SSC...

Boneweave Girdle
AGI = 63.46
Hit = 29.07
Crit = 41.28
AP = 76
____________
209.81(180.74)

Don Alejandro's Money Belt
AGI = 48.43
Socket + Bonues = 41.6
Crit = 32.68
AP + 76
____________
198.71


Worth the hit? :-\

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 4:13 PM.
#6393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Mox
Is it possible for you to get a WWS log of a raid or 2? You said earlier that you "get top 4 on dps", however with no numbers that means very little. For example you could be getting top 4 dmg with 1200 dps or top 4 dmg with 1800 dps and thats a huge difference.

If you want your theory to hold water you need to show some numbers.
As I said, I was mainly just posting due to my personal experience with Hit Rating. Malan wants to talk about simulators and this and that... Using information from YOUR THEORIES to further prove YOUR THEORIES is clearly better than realtime trials. I don't really care if my findings are widely accepted, as I've seen and discovered them to be accurate, but when Malan is clearly stating in his OP that "hit is just less important than the others[stats]" and then wants to justify that the OP is correct in it's ridiculously high value for Hit makes no sense to me. As my itemization on the previous page shows, I'm not running all over looking for items without hit. I'm doing what is suggested in the OP, and picking up the highest PURE STAT items in the game and picking up whatever hit comes along the way. I'd like Malan to show exactly how it's possible that, for a Shaman, Hit can possibly be worth as much as Agility... It makes no sense whatsoever, and I will never itemize as such.

If you guys want to, go right ahead! If it somehow makes sense to you, I fully support you, and I hope it works out for ya; however, I'm not just going to read a site and take what it tells me as fact until I can see some in-game evidence. And from everything I've experienced... As I swap hit items for stat items, DPS increases substantially.
#6394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Tambard
If that's not you saying hit rating is a lesser stat, then I don't know what is...
By your same monkey logic I guess we can conclude that Attack Power is also a 'lesser stat' and we should stop including it on EP values as well since its only worth 1 EP. May as well drop Haste off of it as well.
#6395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Wow... lagged like crazy.
#6396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Thanks a lot for the help, Sebudai. I have to go over the list and see what my options are.

Tambard: Since you are such a fan of theorycraft, do you agree that your white damage misses? And if it does, do you agree that increasing your hit rating will make you gain DPS by more white damage? Thus hit rating is a valuable stat, right? It may not be of equal value to str, AP, crit or ag, but it matters.

You should be very careful to claim stuff based on observations. Observations are seldom enough data for empirical evidence. And even if you do, look at your SWS data and figure out how much DPS gained you have from, say 5 AP or 20 hit rating. It should be doable to reverse engineer your attacks to apply the two additions. I expect you to see the hit gain come out on top.
#6397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
lol, as I said a few pages back. You guys can do whatever you want. Good luck with it! Using simulators with your theorycrafted information to further prove your theories is pretty nice. I was just noting what I had experienced in the actual game content and questioning how it's even fathomable for hit to be worth the ridiculous amount it's listed at. You're on a righteous crusade to defend the OP, when you won't even address the fact that you're defying your own written words, Malan. THAT is amusing.
#6398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Disquette
There's nothing special about damage ranges for us, so weapon choices boil down to:

dps
weapon speed
stats

don't worry about a 100 - 200 weapon versus a 50 -250 weapon. They'll do identical damage over time.
Possible benefit in PvP? The higher burst potential might be worthwhile... but as Disquette mentioned, for PvE, speed > damage range assuming equivalent dps.
#6399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Also keep in mind that the more haste gear you're sporting, might mean expertise and hit being more useful than it otherwise would be. Also, keep in mind that when raid buffed, you might possibly see some diminishing returns in the benefit of AP/STR over other 'minor' stats. I mean, if you're rocking out at something like 5K AP buffed, hit might be a more substantial investment. Also, keep track of your percentage of white damage... if it starts climbing higher, hit might become more important.
#6400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan
I challenge you to find any place where I or Yo or Disquette or Rob or Sebudai have said that Hit rating is "a lesser stat."
Okay... OP:

Originally Posted by Malan
We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others.
What do I win?
#6401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Tambard
It would depend on the outcome of the stats... If the difference was just that 2.2 EP vs. the 20 hit... No, I wouldn't. But to lose 16 EP for 17 hit... Not worth it in my opinion. If I were to give hit a value and try to evaluate stats with it... I'd say MAYBE... .75 But for me, I really just look at the outcome. If an item is way ahead in raw stats, I'm not giving that up for hit. I just don't see any justification for it.

Another Note: In my final setup (if you're using Shoulderpads of the Stranger), a Shaman would have 9 Expertise and 124 Hit. which even the pro-hit fiends would enjoy.
So you agree that a certain amount of the "lesser stat" will trump 1 of our best stat. My next question for you is how much hit rating would it take to outweigh 1 strength for you. And once you've answered that question my next question would be, what are you even basing your conclusions on?

I'm not sure why you would agree with and use the accepted EP values for things like CR, Agi, Str etc. only to arbitrarily discount the accepted EP value of hit rating. You're basically telling math to go fuck itself.
#6402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
You're taking what I've written in the OP to an extreme, like "to the moon" extreme.
#6403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by berg
No one here are pro-hit fiends. You are anti-hit and have provided nothing resembling data to support your stance.

You are effectively telling everyone to agree that 0.8 and 0.0 represent the same value.

I do not care what gear you put on your character but expecting everyone to assign a value of 0 to hit is completely absurd.
I don't expect that. I'm simply saying that valuing a commonly agreed lesser stat equal with Agility is ridiculous. As such, I simply ignore it, and the results I've experienced have been very positive. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all of theories, but it's almost as ludicrous as having a section on the site explaining how hit should not be valued as high as pure stats, then doing the exact opposite in stat evaluations.
#6404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
I agree with Don Alejandro's over boneweave, but mainly because of the flavor text.
#6405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tambard
I don't expect that. I'm simply saying that valuing a commonly agreed lesser stat equal with Agility is ridiculous. As such, I simply ignore it, and the results I've experienced have been very positive. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all of theories, but it's almost as ludicrous as having a section on the site explaining how hit should not be valued as high as pure stats, then doing the exact opposite in stat evaluations.
Your argument is ridiculous, not the stat weights. As Sebudai said, you're taking your "feelings" as facts, and saying the math can go fuck itself.

I challenge you to find any place where I or Yo or Disquette or Rob or Sebudai have said that Hit rating is "a lesser stat."

You say "sacrificing 17 hit isn't worth 16 EP" which is an ignorant statement. You're comparing apples and oranges. 17 would translate to well over 16 EP which makes your statement ludicrous at best and makes you look like you were too lazy to whip a calculator out. Even at the lowest value of "standardized" EP values in the OP (for entry level T4), 17 hit rating would be worth 22.78 EP. Is 22.78 > 16 EP? Yes, I think it is.
#6406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan
Your argument is ridiculous, not the stat weights. As Sebudai said, you're taking your "feelings" as facts, and saying the math can go fuck itself.
I could get SWS reports... Go and pick up the hit items, get SWS reports... And put it on "paper"... But I'm not really interrested if it's commonly accepted or not, nor am I interrested in picking up downgrades. It has proven true time and time again FOR ME that Hit is ridiculously overvalued on this site, and there has been no reasoning behind why it deserves the ridiculous stat weight it's given. Why not prove that it deserves the insane weight it has, rather than saying the math is right? I'm basing my claim on observations, while you're saying the unfounded math is correct when it contradicts commonly accepted theorycraft.


Originally Posted by Malan
Even at the lowest value of "standardized" EP values in the OP (for entry level T4), 17 hit rating would be worth 22.78 EP. Is 22.78 > 16 EP? Yes, I think it is.
And who says it's correct? It has been wrong many times before. Oh... And one more thing... From the OP:

Originally Posted by Malan
We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others.
If that's not you saying hit rating is a lesser stat, then I don't know what is...

Last edited by Tambard : 01/22/08 at 3:53 PM.
#6407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
No you're basing your BS on "wow look at my dmg meter on this 7 minute long fight" and then committing fallacies of logic. You're basing it on 2 things really - jack, and shit.

On the other hand we as a community base our valuations on a cumulative total of simulation hours that is approaching the millions of hours run, which have categorically been shown to be accurate through in game analysis, none of which you have shown.

Contradict common theorycraft? I think you're a little mixed up here bud, because whats in this thread is the accepted common theorycraft.
#6408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
Sebudai, we've got pretty much the same gear, but Berserker's Call comes out a tiny bit higher than Madness of the Betrayer for me, any ideas why?
Madness comes out at 160 EP for me, BC is 150 and I have almost identical gear to both Sebudai and Illundai. (However I use the BC because I prefer it to madness due to not needing the hit, I run at 200+ hit rating already just from using "the best" item in each slot, and because I like heroism + BC on use).

I ran the sim x5 @ 10,000 hours and got an average of:

1 AP
1.98 Crit
1.79 Hit
1.88 Haste
0.34 Armor pen
2.2 Str
1.93 Agility
3.31 Expertise

Thats for mongoose/Mongoose setup (if you use Mon/exe you get different EP values for crit/agility).

Although I don't know why my crit/agility values are much higher than Sebudai's, maybe buffs.. leader of pack? I Never have a feral in the dps group so could be that.
#6409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Tambard
I could get SWS reports... Go and pick up the hit items, get SWS reports... And put it on "paper"... But I'm not really interrested if it's commonly accepted or not, nor am I interrested in picking up downgrades.
Is it possible for you to get a WWS log of a raid or 2? You said earlier that you "get top 4 on dps", however with no numbers that means very little. For example you could be getting top 4 dmg with 1200 dps or top 4 dmg with 1800 dps and thats a huge difference.

If you want your theory to hold water you need to show some numbers.
#6410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Except I could post my own WWS of me undoubtedly doing more damage and since I have more hit rating I could somehow equate that to meaning hit rating is awesome. Shitty logic is shitty. Embrace the loving arms of math.
#6411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Tambard, maybe it you had more hit rating you could hit the submit button on the first try, and thus avoid multiple posts.

Most of us trust the simulator because the results are in line with what we see in game. I recently made an upgrade that decreased my critical chance by about 1% but added 30 hit rating and 20 AP. Simulator suggested it was a major upgrade, on the order of 10 dps, and that's about what I see -- an average of 10 more DPS on fights I did the previous week in a similar group.

Whenever I trust the EP, I seem to do well. Whenever I aim for a particular stat, I seem to get boned. If the EP says Hit Rating is worth 1.5 AP, I trust that at the very least, it'll be close to that. Our DPS is a feedback system and what the EP tells us is that balance is more important than min-maxing.
#6412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
We really have come full circle. First, it's "rofl why rnt u hit capped?" Now, it's "hit is worthless lol nub!" Suffice to say that if you just don't value hit at all, you *may* end up with the right items at the endgame, but you *will* get some of the wrong items along the way. (Skipping out on Skulker's Greaves is a huge mistake, for example.)

Originally Posted by Sebudai
Here's a list based off of my own stats. Keep in mind that this list assigns no value whatsoever to intellect or stamina:
This list is going to basically be consistent with any other shaman's list. (I.e. even though they have different customized EP values, these are just the best items in-game period.) S3 weapons are better than Syphons for any race. The only possible exceptions I see on your list are that Deadly Cuffs and Insidious Bands are functionally equivalent (honestly, it is roughly a 2 AP difference no matter how you socket), and Softstep are slightly better than Shadowmaster's if you are forced to socket with Rare-quality gems (instead of the Epic-quality gems that would be expected). I would also add that Shoulderpads of the Stranger only pull ahead of Shoulders of the Hidden Predator when socketed with an epic gem and the two items are really functionally equivalent as well.

I noticed you prefer Softstep and Fists of Mukoa, is this because you like wearing mail? The dilemma I face in choosing between these options and their leather near-equivalents is that the leather items do stack more Stamina and would probably produce more survivability in a raid environment, where IME armor is of little to no concern (and if you end up tanking something you throw a shield on until it can be taunted off of you). My guild is on Illidan at the moment, so I have seen most encounters that you have, but I don't have your level of gear to be able to say "oh, I've got plenty of stamina, no need to look for more."

Last edited by Rob : 01/22/08 at 5:04 PM.
#6413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zealoz
Well I am sporting an interesting Dilemma. My gear has improved greatly over the last 3 weeks with the additions of Syphon, T5 Helm, Insidious Bands, Mantle of Darkness, Nether Shadow Tunic. While my overall DPS has increased I have noticed (through WWS) an additional increase in Melee misses by nearly 5%on some encounters. And an increase in misses with SS/WF by nearly 1-2%. My damage allocation seems to be right on between Melee/Specials/Shocks. I have some WWS from early this month where I added the Syphon, Mantle of Darkness and T5 Helm. But our RL hasn't posted WWS from the last 2 weeks, probably because we have been working on Archimonde alot. But I will try to get them.

My armory is probably showing my PVP gear from last night but I run with unbuffed 1676 AP, 19.65% Hit, 28.84% Crit. And Expertise rating of I believe 25 (Orc + Belt on One-Hundred deaths) and zero haste.

Any thoughts as to why my misses are increasing, but my DPS is also increasing? I replaced S1 Cleaver/S2 Hacker (Hence the FT attacks in WWS) in OH with the Syphon. And running W.E.P. in MH. Am I missing something, doing something wrong? I have tried to model after Malan, Sebudai, Yo, and Disquette. So I am a little perplexed by this indication. Is this a normal expectation that as the damage output increases as does the number of misses or potential misses?

WWS
#6414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by Zealoz
And an increase in misses with SS/WF by nearly 1-2%.
Unless you're in Hyjal I don't even see how this is possible ...

your damage on Rage winterchill

6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.

Last edited by Mox : 01/22/08 at 5:20 PM.
#6415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zealoz
Most of the increases in miss% have come off the bosses in Hyjal. The BT Bosses that we have killed up to this point I haven't noticed that big of an increase in misses. Is the Armor rating of Hyjal Bosses that much higher?

Originally Posted by Mox
6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.
So that is interesting. I don't maintain the logs so I have no idea what happened.
#6416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Armor rating does not impact miss chance.

On the other hand, "Banshee Curse" from Banshees in Hyjal trash packs sure does.
#6417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Zealoz
Most of the increases in miss% have come off the bosses in Hyjal. The BT Bosses that we have killed up to this point I haven't noticed that big of an increase in misses. Is the Armor rating of Hyjal Bosses that much higher?
Armor rating has nothing to do with hit chance.

Are you using 3/3 DW spec and 3/3 natures guidance in your raid dps spec? If you are your stromstrike/WF have no chance to miss at all.
#6418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Mox
Unless you're in Hyjal I don't even see how this is possible ...

your damage on Rage winterchill

6.2% miss on stormstrike??? Not possible... something/someone is screwing up your logs.
What WWS refers to as misses is in fact the amount of attacks that were missed, dodged or parried. So a 6.2% "miss" on Stormstrike could very well just mean that 6.2% of the Stormstrikes that were done were dodged.
#6419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Dodge + parry shows up as miss in WWS if my memory serves me right..
#6420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zealoz
Originally Posted by Mox
Are you using 3/3 DW spec and 3/3 natures guidance in your raid dps spec? If you are your stromstrike/WF have no chance to miss at all.
I am 3/3 DW and 3/3 NG and was at 128 +Hit during these encounters.
#6421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Zealoz
I am 3/3 DW and 3/3 NG and was at 128 +Hit during these encounters.
Ok well like previous posters pointed out (and I had forgot) WWS includes parry/dodge as "misses". So if you have those talents + that hit rating your SS/WF are not missing at all, I recommend getting an ingame meter such as swstats or recount and actually checking this for yourself if you want.
#6422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Ahem -- this is generated by one of those stats parsers that merges Dodge/Block/Parry/Resist with true Miss for a combined Miss chance.

There isn't a whole lot of data for Stormstrikes and thus you can't trust the miss rate on any single parse for it. You'd need to fight for 16 minutes to see even 100 SS swings. I have seen parses where SS never misses and others where it misses 10% of the time. It's just random numbers with a small sample set dude.

Incidentally, what the HELL are you doing with Flamestrike on, man?
#6423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Rob
I noticed you prefer Softstep and Fists of Mukoa, is this because you like wearing mail? The dilemma I face in choosing between these options and their leather near-equivalents is that the leather items do stack more Stamina and would probably produce more survivability in a raid environment, where IME armor is of little to no concern (and if you end up tanking something you throw a shield on until it can be taunted off of you). My guild is on Illidan at the moment, so I have seen most encounters that you have, but I don't have your level of gear to be able to say "oh, I've got plenty of stamina, no need to look for more."
After your mana pool has shrunk a bunch from using a lot of leather, I think intellect actually starts to matter a little bit if you totem twist. While generally stats like mp5 and intellect are totally meaningless to us, you still do need a large enough base mana pool to sustain the twisting cycle in between SR's. Intellect and mp5 are definitely terrible. But at this point, when I'm deciding between two items that are equivalent dps-wise, I'll normally take whichever one has more intellect.

Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.

Last edited by Sebudai : 01/22/08 at 6:40 PM.
#6424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Poprostu
guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?

Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft
#6425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
[Earthen Netherscale Boots] 61.6ep + 6agility becouse you can chooce 12agility over cat swiftness enchant. I have to say: dont waste gold.
#6426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Hey guys.

Looking through the weaponry currently available for me, I am pondering what the next move to make is.

I am in a guild that is 5/6 SSC and 3/4 TK and we are STRICTLY working on Vashj. That means that going into TK and getting Netherbane is kind of a lost cause at this point.

I am currently wielding dual S1 Axes (both 2.6 speed obviously). I am 2 weeks away from the S2 Axe (need 600 more arena points). Once I get the S2 Axe, I plan to use it as my MH. In saying that, what is going to be my best bet for an OH until Alar drops Netherbane? Should I just stick with my S1 Axe in my OH for the time being?

Thanks for your help.
#6427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Areus
Run the sim. Its there for a reason, so that you can answer your own questions. Do more than 1 run to see if your DPS increases or decreases with different gear setups.
#6428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.
Thanks. I also wear mostly leather, just of lower ilvl than yours, so we have similar unbuffed mana pools. I was totem twisting tonight for the first six bosses of BT without any mana problems, but I was using rank 1 WFT rather than max rank. I will try twisting with max rank later this week, and see if I run into the same problems you describe. (As I'm a novice twister, it's also quite possible that I'm just less efficient in using my GCDs and so I get less GoA uptime and fewer shocks but use less mana.)
#6429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Darganis
- Windfury Weapon now only grants 1 extra attack and the bonus attack power granted has been reduced by approximately 19%, but the chance to proc has been increased. Overall shamans should see more consistent dps.
I found this here. What does this mean for us? Can anyone do some quick numbers? Because we will have to change our spec to make sure we get "Elemental Weapons" because of this:

- Elemental Weapons: This talent now increases the damage caused by Rockbiter Weapon by 10/20/30% and the attack power bonus of Windfury Weapon by 15/30/45%.
What is the future like for the Enh Shammy?
#6430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Iku
Originally Posted by Darganis
I found this here. What does this mean for us? Can anyone do some quick numbers? Because we will have to change our spec to make sure we get "Elemental Weapons" because of this:



What is the future like for the Enh Shammy?
First, those are probably fake patch notes. Second, even if they were valid (which would suck), every enhancement shaman already has the Elemental Weapons talent. It's the prerequisite for Stormstrike.
#6431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Deadly Cuffs
Yellow Socket: 5 Str/5 CR - (5*2.2) + (5*1.72) = 19.6 EP
12 HR: (12*1.71) = 20.52 EP
28 CR: (28*1.72) = 48.16
58 AP: (58*1) = 58 EP

Total: (19.6) + (20.52) + (48.16) + (58) = 146.28 EP

Wouldn't you socket these with a spinel? Can't see any reason to make a yellow socket bonus fit with stamina.
Ah yes, sorry, that's why they were coming out on top for me, I was assuming a Spinel socket, which wouldn't give the socket bonus (but even without the socket bonus, cuffs with a spinel still comes out on top, right?
#6432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Conq[SUN]
Leatherworking

Hi

Monster of a thread here. But I have found a lot of good useful information so far. Thanks.

My question is regarding professions, which I haven't been able to find anything about. Seems the best would probably be to get blacksmithing, but don't wanna do that again.

So I came up with leatherworking, which seems to be a bit useful. Was sure Dragonscale would be the specialization to get, but after looking into it I'm no longer sure. It seems Elemental is the way to go.

Looking at the epic pieces you can make Primalstrike comes out a little bit better with the wrists and waist, but only a bit, so you could justify getting the Netherscale for the extra armor and int. The Primalstrike chest seems so much better that the Netherscale though, meaning it is no longer justified getting Netherscale for the extra stats.

Is this conclusion right, or is there any other opinions?

Edit: Made an alliance shaman on another server to play with some friends. Meaning I probably won't have access to the same level of gear as my paladin.
#6433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tristan
Originally Posted by Conq[SUN]
So I came up with leatherworking, which seems to be a bit useful. Was sure Dragonscale would be the specialization to get, but after looking into it I'm no longer sure. It seems Elemental is the way to go.

Is this conclusion right, or is there any other opinions?
Don't specc , there's quite easily obtainable alternatives leaving the choice for another time and day when it's needed to pick one.

Chest: [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted, 2 nethers)
Wrists: [Vindicator's Linked Bracers] (Honor)
Waist: [Vindicator's Linked Girdle] (Honor)

I leveled Leatherworking just to make: [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes], and still haven't specced my leatherworking. I don't expect to choose one unless I find something in WotLK or some new items are added to the speccs.

Edit: Nether requirement for Shadowprowler's Chestguard

Last edited by Tristan : 01/29/08 at 6:12 AM.
#6434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jumbotron
Originally Posted by Mbuzi
I believe you have to manually add in your hit from talents to your paperdoll stats. So if your paper doll reads 7%, add 9% to that if specced for it. That is how I read the following from Yo's FAQ.
A belated thanks, that was my mistake exactly.


Thanks also to Malan and everyone who's contributed to the thread, there's not a more comprehensive guide to enhancement shaman on the net.
#6435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Conq[SUN]
Originally Posted by Tristan
Don't specc , there's quite easily obtainable alternatives leaving the choice for another time and day when it's needed to pick one.

Chest: [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] (Crafted, although 4 nethers so a bit of cash if you don't have the rep to make it yourself)
Wrists: [Vindicator's Linked Bracers] (Honor)
Waist: [Vindicator's Linked Girdle] (Honor)

I leveled Leatherworking just to make: [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes], and still haven't specced my leatherworking. I don't expect to choose one unless I find something in WotLK or some new items are added to the speccs.
Good advice although I would need to do Kara to get it, which I'm not sure I will ever do.
Think I will follow you advice and wait and see though. It seems the crafted armor you can get by speccing is not as good for shaman as it seems to be for other classes. Thanks.
#6436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Farstrider
[Shadowprowler's Chestguard] is only 2 nethers, not 4, so pretty achievable in an afternoon if you go with a guild group. Alternatively they are probably around 1,000-1,200 gold these days - they have been cheapened by the new badge loot alternatives.
#6437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Shadowprowlers is also a relatively small upgrade from the S1 Galdiator chest for its cost in time/money.
I actually have all the mats for a Shadowprowler's Chest but cant bring myself to craft and enchant it for what works out as around a 30EP gain with my current weightings.
#6438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skizzilini
Originally Posted by Poprostu
guys plz help me ... what u think about this boots ?

Earthen Netherscale Boots - Items - World of Warcraft
Is there a thread or post to answer questions like this? I know how you gauge EP values and such as static values, but at what point you switch to new gear and what point one stat become better than the other would be interesting to talk about. Some people don't know when they are T4, T5, T6, pre raid, or any other classification. Perhaps another thread to help gauge gear values?

Edit: I guess this post was deleted, but my question still remains.
#6439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Skizzilini
Is there a thread or post to answer questions like this? I know how you gauge EP values and such as static values, but at what point you switch to new gear and what point one stat become better than the other would be interesting to talk about. Some people don't know when they are T4, T5, T6, pre raid, or any other classification. Perhaps another thread to help gauge gear values?
This is what YO's simluator exists for.
Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent.

Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own.
#6440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Sebudai
After your mana pool has shrunk a bunch from using a lot of leather, I think intellect actually starts to matter a little bit if you totem twist. While generally stats like mp5 and intellect are totally meaningless to us, you still do need a large enough base mana pool to sustain the twisting cycle in between SR's. Intellect and mp5 are definitely terrible. But at this point, when I'm deciding between two items that are equivalent dps-wise, I'll normally take whichever one has more intellect.

Using Fists of Mukoa, Boneweave Girdle and Softstep Boots of Tracking gives me about an extra 30 seconds of totem twisting, which ends up mattering on encounters like Illidari Council, Mother Shahraz and Gurtogg. If I didn't totem twist it really would be impossible to run out of mana and I would definitely prefer the other options.
I pretty much follow this as well. Once a shamy hits enough of a mana pool to be able to sustain twisting until SR is back up, there is 0 need for int or mana/5 on gear. Sure the Souls leather gloves have 3 more agi then fists, but enhance does need a decent mana pool which depending on how much leather is used, can be a pain.

As said, for me Int and Stam are both tie-breakers in choosing gear. I wont use them in the initial calculations, but they help when theres a tiny EAP difference between 2 pieces of gear.
#6441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
This is what YO's simluator exists for.
Put your stats in the simulator, run it for 1000+ hours, write down your new AEP values; ifyou put those in enhancer it will even work out for you which items an an upgrade and how much of an upgrade they represent.

Really, it is all there if people were a little less lazy. I found all the information you just asked for, myself, less than a week ago, using the search functions of this forum and a little time of my own.
I agree, but you have situations where a list like the one I asked for and Sebudai provided is a great help. When you transfer from T5 content to T6, your upgrade path is unclear. Item A may be a better upgrade for me than item B, but after replacing maybe 60% of my set, B is the best in-slot item. AEP is dynamic and sometimes is near impossible to find the best in-slot item because you don't have the under-laying other best-in slot items to base your AEP on.

Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
#6442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Raut
Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
Loot Rank
#6443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Raut
I agree, but you have situations where a list like the one I asked for and Sebudai provided is a great help. When you transfer from T5 content to T6, your upgrade path is unclear. Item A may be a better upgrade for me than item B, but after replacing maybe 60% of my set, B is the best in-slot item. AEP is dynamic and sometimes is near impossible to find the best in-slot item because you don't have the under-laying other best-in slot items to base your AEP on.

Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
Actually, using entry level EP values will give you pretty much the same set of good gear as using end game EP values. Barring maybe one or two items. It really doesn't change that much
#6444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Ah. Well, further proof of my lack of enhance knowledge.
#6445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Oprahwinfury
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
#6446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Iku
Originally Posted by Oprahwinfury
When I weigh Expertise Rating at 3.52 on lootrank.com, [Gloves of the Searing Grip] gets a score 4 EP higher than [Fists of Mukoa]. Does this really mean the leather gloves are superior as the Expertise is rounded down to 4 from 4.57 on the character sheet? I don't have any other items with Expertise Rating on them.
I'm not that familiar with lootrank.com, but you should get an accurate result if you subtract (<expertise weight> * <unused expertise rating part>) from the specific item, in this case that would be 3.52 * 0.57, so subtract about 2 EP from the item value.
#6447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• ikillyouheal
I just ran the sim for my stats again, and it seems like I got some really high numbers for hit.

Thottbot World of Warcraft: Customize Item Score Multipliers

Seems like t5 Gloves are the best ones in the game for me at the moment.

I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times.

Any input?
#6448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Iku
The T5 enhancement glove score on Thottbot seems bugged and is far too high.
#6449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
I don't think 1500 hours is enough. I get some pretty big swings running it for 10,000 hours.
#6450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Maybe create a list in the OP with "Awesomest gear evar! STFU", so helpless nabbs like myself can look up what to aim for? It may be a flame magnet for some as we've seen with the recent "lol hit is bad kk", I don't know. It's useful information.
As has already been said, the "best" items are going to come out the same no matter what point you're at in gear progression, but the "better" items along the way may change with your EP fluctuations. Anyway, you can just look at the list Sebudai posted a few pages back and/or any of the LootRank links recently posted to get a list of the "best" for everything besides trinkets and weapons, which are addressed in the first post.
Originally Posted by ikillyouheal
I ran the sim for 1500 hours twice and came to the same conclusion both times.

Any input?
As has been said, the T5 glove score on Thottbot is bugged. For this and other reasons, I use LootRank instead. To get more accurate values, I would honestly recommend making an Excel spreadsheet, and running the sim 5 times for 10k hours each. Put the values from each trial into Excel and average them.
#6451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Darganis
Originally Posted by Iku
First, those are probably fake patch notes. Second, even if they were valid (which would suck), every enhancement shaman already has the Elemental Weapons talent. It's the prerequisite for Stormstrike.
I sure hope they are fake.
#6452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Darganis
I sure hope [the patch notes] are fake.
Me too. But those notes are awfully complex and comprehensive. They look real to me.

If they are real, then Bliz is really screwing us. Not because the changes are necessarily bad themselves, but because it looks like they think that the ghost wolf thing will solve our problems with CC. Maybe it'll help a bunch in PvP (imp GW will be mandatory), but it does nothing for us in PvE, where we need some sort of CC. Instead, they let rogues sap even in combat. Because everyone knows rogues don't get enough love, and they need more CC...

That aside, I have no problem with WF being less bursty. I'm generally smart enough now, and careful enough with Omen, to not die in the first 5 seconds of combat due to too-lucky crits with WF and SS... but it would be great not to have to think about that. It'll also help a lot for riding close to 110% threat, which is usually too dangerous right now. This all assumes that they don't nerf our total DPS- but sadly, I don't trust them at that either.

OTOH, if they totally got rid of the 3-sec hidden CD on WF, that would be a huge gain for us, because many more weapons would become tenable. Slow would still be better for SS, but it wouldn't be the huge issue it is today.
#6453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
There is no point to further debate about the 'patch' notes until the PTR goes back up. For rampant speculation please use a different threat, namely the sunwell thread.

edit: stupid typos
#6454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Unaz
Originally Posted by Raut
Once again, I'm sorry to ask such a horribly cliché of a question, but I don't have a base set of gear to figure out my upgrades from. Most of T6 content is a huge upgrade for me. Is there a shaman's profile or list I can base my project on?
I tried to compile a list here to answer this question. Some of the pieces need a bit of tweaking, but they are generally all the best-in-slot armor pieces, in order of power. The main area I'm sketchy on would be gloves though.

Running the sim on your own gear may change the priority slightly, but you won't go wrong by just following that list.

Most of the slots generally have a badge or pvp option in there to get you started.

Edit: Argh ignore this, this is what I get for leaving a browser window open at work from last week and not paying attention.

Last edited by Unaz : 01/23/08 at 3:45 PM.
#6455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hothgor
I appologize deeply if this has already been posted. That being said, the current but where flurry does not refresh itself if you crit with 1 charge left will be fixed after 2.3.2 (or has been fixed this last patch?):

WoW BlueTracker: [Warrior] Flurry / Whirlwind Bug Fixes?
#6456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I wouldn't, but I'm sure a lot of people would. If you use a Spinel instead then Deadly Cuffs end up being .46 EP better than Insidious Bands.
Erm, so I picked up a Spinel tonight, thinking I'd socket it on my Deadly Cuffs, but then I did some calculations...

These are my values:

AP = 1 AEP
Crit = 1.97 AEP
Hit = 1.77 AEP
Haste = 1.76 AEP
-Armor = 0.37 AEP
Strength = 2.2 AEP
Agility = 1.91 AEP
Expertise = 3.26 AEP

So, let me know if I'm messing this up. I don't want to waste a Spinel, so I'm doublechecking.

Deadly Cuffs + Bold Crimson Spinel

Str = 10 * 2.2 = 22 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
Crit = 28 * 1.97 = 55.16 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP

[top] 156.4 AEP

Insidious Bands + Inscribed Pyrestone

Agi


30 * 1.91 = 57.3 AEP
Str = 5 * 2.2 = 11 AEP
Crit = 5 *1.97 = 9.85 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP
= 157.39

Deadly Cuffs + Pyrestone ends up on 155.25 and Insidious Bands + Spinel ends up on 154.7 AEP.
I probably dropped the ball on some of my maths, but after second glance I didn't see any errors. Obviously your AEP values are going to be different, but I didn't think it'd tip the favour of Insidious Bands with a Pyrestone really.
#6457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Fully depends on one thing I guess, having kings, or not having kings. That might explain the difference?
#6458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'm pretty sure Sebudai includes Kings, as did I. I never, ever not have Kings, so no reason to leave it out.
#6459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Gentlemen:

It's less than 1 EP either way. Let it go.
#6460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
When comparing AEP values, I'd say if there's less than 5% difference, either item will be fine.

I picked 5 out of the air, feel free to use a lower value. The above case is a 0.6% difference.
#6461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Illundai
Erm, so I picked up a Spinel tonight, thinking I'd socket it on my Deadly Cuffs, but then I did some calculations...

These are my values:

AP = 1 AEP
Crit = 1.97 AEP
Hit = 1.77 AEP
Haste = 1.76 AEP
-Armor = 0.37 AEP
Strength = 2.2 AEP
Agility = 1.91 AEP
Expertise = 3.26 AEP

So, let me know if I'm messing this up. I don't want to waste a Spinel, so I'm doublechecking.

Deadly Cuffs + Bold Crimson Spinel

Str = 10 * 2.2 = 22 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
Crit = 28 * 1.97 = 55.16 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP

[top] 156.4 AEP

Insidious Bands + Inscribed Pyrestone

Agi


30 * 1.91 = 57.3 AEP
Str = 5 * 2.2 = 11 AEP
Crit = 5 *1.97 = 9.85 AEP
Hit = 12 * 1.77 = 21.24 AEP
AP = 58 * 1 = 58 AEP
= 157.39

Deadly Cuffs + Pyrestone ends up on 155.25 and Insidious Bands + Spinel ends up on 154.7 AEP.
I probably dropped the ball on some of my maths, but after second glance I didn't see any errors. Obviously your AEP values are going to be different, but I didn't think it'd tip the favour of Insidious Bands with a Pyrestone really.
Instead of running sim to get EP values and evaluating 2 pieces (sets) of gear with them, it is faster and more accurate to run sim twice with those 2 items' (sets) stats and compare DPS (and do not check compute EP values while doing so to speed up).
#6462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well yes, but doesn't the sims DPS vary too much to compare for just one item?
#6463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Illundai
Well yes, but doesn't the sims DPS vary too much to compare for just one item?
DPS vary much less than EP values. DPS becomes stable at 1000 hours and is dead-stable at 10k. DPS is what you are looking for, and items that have same EP may have different DPS contribution if one item has more spreaded, more "balanced" stats and another is focused solely on 1 stat. EP total for the item is not accounting how balanced stats are on that particular item. The difference is not really significant so that if the item is 10 EP more it will produce more DPS for sure but, if you want to go all the way in choosnig between 2 identical items from sim's point of view - comparing dps is correct. Well I am sure that dps will be the same too , but what I wanted to point to is how to compare 2 items without having to run lengthy calculations of EP.
#6464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macked
I don't know if this has been mentioned or covered or not. I've tried in tests with myself, and if I drop windfury totem, and instnatly dropped the agility totem. Once the windfury totem's buff runs out, i still have the buff for anywhere from 3-5 more seconds, can anyone confirm if this is actually happenning? If so, wouldn't it increase the amount of time we'd have to work with when totem twisting?
#6465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
So, i know this was already covered some times, and that the weapons are almost equal, varying like 1% or less, but...
Every time i input any of the high-end weapons, besides Dragonstrike, i get much less DPS then any other MH.

Is anyone getting same results with their AEP values?
#6466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Macked, Blizzard's code behaves weirdly. I think what you're seeing is akin to the flurry bug, by which we get more attacks flurried than we should. Or maybe not. But I know what you're talking about. It's like the server knows that the buff is gone, and your client knows that your buff is gone, but until the server tells your client that it knows it's gone, it hangs on your screen (and possibly your stats).
#6467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Macked
I don't know if this has been mentioned or covered or not. I've tried in tests with myself, and if I drop windfury totem, and instnatly dropped the agility totem. Once the windfury totem's buff runs out, i still have the buff for anywhere from 3-5 more seconds, can anyone confirm if this is actually happenning? If so, wouldn't it increase the amount of time we'd have to work with when totem twisting?
I'm a little confused by what you mean here. Do you mean the WF buff lasts longer than the 10s if you don't have the totem down? I see this as well, mostly when I forget to refresh WF and need to do it in battles. I've also noticed if I'm using CTbuffmod and refresh WF as soon as the WFT 10s is up, I'll have the buff name WFT but with a 30m timer.

I usually pay more attention to the timers on DQD (thanks Disquette!) than what the server tells me, because if I wait for CTmod then my rogues will complain about not having their WF buff. (Our rogues are pretty on the ball, if they see a string of hits without WF they yell at me in vent.)

If you're really having trouble refreshing WF, you can click off the WFT buff. It's been pretty responsive in my Barrier Hills test, but I haven't ignored WF long enough lately to try this in raids. (If you have WFT down and WF runs out, SCT will display an 'extra attack' pretty quickly. It lets me know when I'm zoning out.)
#6468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by T.K.
So, i know this was already covered some times, and that the weapons are almost equal, varying like 1% or less, but...
Every time i input any of the high-end weapons, besides Dragonstrike, i get much less DPS then any other MH.

Is anyone getting same results with their AEP values?
Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the sim. Still looking for "true" ppm, or in-game ppm or long-enough sample data. Hopefully it is the only proc that is modelled incorrectly now (few trinkets were too but changed them according to new findings some time ago).
#6469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Paradox
Originally Posted by Yo!
Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the sim. Still looking for "true" ppm, or in-game ppm or long-enough sample data. Hopefully it is the only proc that is modelled incorrectly now (few trinkets were too but changed them according to new findings some time ago).
How can you get this information? I have a dragonstrike, just tell me what addon I need to get and how long I need to sit whacking Servants for to get accurate data.

Also

"wait with SS if less than xxx seconds are left of WF cooldown"

The way that is worded greatly confuses me.. I just don't understand what that sentence means, but I know what you are trying to say with it...

Last edited by Paradox : 01/24/08 at 5:49 AM.
#6470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jingizu
it means if your wf is on cooldown you CAN wait for it until you use ss, which could theoretically deal more dmg. breaking your rotation just to wait for a possible wf (which could also procc on the swing just 0,2 sec before you hit that damn ss button) is in my opinion not a good option, but if you want to maximise your possible dps you may think about it.

regarding dragonstrike: the procc seems to be very irregular to figure out about a proc. if it is somethink like 1 ppm you may consider it (212 x 1.82) / 6 = 64,3 (I'm using t6 aep value, not my own), what makes it equal to syphon without it's procc (in other words: worse). on the other side, i don't know the exact ppm. so you may want to guess about that :P
#6471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Marsius
Originally Posted by blakest
I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but according to whats said in the Itemization for MH and OH weapons, wouldnt the season 3 axes/maces/fist weapons (assuming you got the 2.6 speed varients) be the best enhancement shaman weapons in the game? (Im new to posting on this site, so ill just write out the stats, sorry no link):
As annoying and sad as it is, generally the PvP weapons are the best for many classes. Ex. I'm coming from a Demo Sac/SnF warlock. This is a pure raid DPS spec and leaves my idea of PvP stuck as hiding somewhere and sniping with shadowbolts. My chances of great arena success? Very, very low. The best I can get for a main hand? Requires an 1850 rating.

And then I rolled an enhancement shammy where I will undoubtedly see great PvP success . . . or just enjoy a different playstyle. You know. Whatever.
#6472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
The irony is, PvP weapons HAVE to be good to penetrate all that high resistance PvP reward armor.

The weapons are the only PvP gear that are really good for shamans in PvE content. There are pieces (vindicator neck/ring, for example) that are great upgrades for many but hardly beat the best of T5. An enhancement shaman looking for full set upgrades in PvP is going to be let down (as I'm sure many are when I obliterate them in the battlegrounds).

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/24/08 at 2:13 PM.
#6473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Zinzoo
Originally Posted by Marsius
As annoying and sad as it is, generally the PvP weapons are the best for many classes. Ex. I'm coming from a Demo Sac/SnF warlock. This is a pure raid DPS spec and leaves my idea of PvP stuck as hiding somewhere and sniping with shadowbolts. My chances of great arena success? Very, very low. The best I can get for a main hand? Requires an 1850 rating.

And then I rolled an enhancement shammy where I will undoubtedly see great PvP success . . . or just enjoy a different playstyle. You know. Whatever.
Edit: I'm an idiot.

Last edited by Zinzoo : 01/24/08 at 3:42 PM.
#6474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Yo!
Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the sim. Still looking for "true" ppm, or in-game ppm or long-enough sample data. Hopefully it is the only proc that is modelled incorrectly now (few trinkets were too but changed them according to new findings some time ago).
For what it's worth, when I was testing stuff around the time of the haste changes I used to get an in-game uptime around 35%(it fluctuated from 30-40) over numerous 30 min sessions on BL mobs using WF+SS, there was no internal cooldown. I don't know if there's been any changes since then.
#6475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Zinzoo
I would like to note though. That I did not include the stat gains from the weapons, the only thing that was considered was the haste proc on dragonstike. So I may be a little biased there.
If you looked up five posts you'd discover that the Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the simulator. Even if it wasn't overvalued, ignoring the stats on the rest of the items makes your results meaningless. Why would you even use a sim to test whether a 97.6 dps, 2.7 speed weapon was better than a 97.6, 2.7 speed weapon that also has a useful proc?
#6476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Zinzoo
Originally Posted by Shalas
If you looked up five posts you'd discover that the Dragonstrike proc is overvalued in the simulator. Even if it wasn't overvalued, ignoring the stats on the rest of the items makes your results meaningless. Why would you even use a sim to test whether a 97.6 dps, 2.7 speed weapon was better than a 97.6, 2.7 speed weapon that also has a useful proc?
Then completely disregard my previous post. I try and keep track of this thread but I don't have enough time to read every post that is written (poor excuse I know). Seeing Yo post himself that there was an issue with the proc being valued too high in the simulator is news to me. I should not have posted my finds, it was my error. At the time I thought the proc for Dragonstrike had already been establish.

Edit: As for ignoring stats gained from other weapons, I worded that really poorly. Crit, AP, and Hit gained from the other weapons were included, it was weapon procs that I did not include, since the only one in this case was the Syphon's drain life proc (which I believe an accurate PPM still has not been established for).

Last edited by Zinzoo : 01/24/08 at 3:48 PM.
#6477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3calem
totem twisting clarification

Quick question to clarify my understanding. I just started totem twisting and have the cycle down pretty smooth. I've asked the rogues in my group and our raid leader if they see a difference with twisting, and none have been able to quantify it, myself included. Based on the community and basic math, it's doing something obviously, just don't know how much of an increase.

We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop.

I'm looking for confirmation on what I'm seeing and making sure I'm not accidentally lowering dps for my group. As windfury weapon imbue has a 3sec cooldown, does WF totem have a 9sec cooldown? If i left WF totem down the whole time, would the group still only have 32 procs, or would the buff refresh itself and be used more than once in 9 secs? I'm assuming it wouldn't or there would be some mention on these forums and twisting wouldn't be as useful.

I know this seems obvious, guess i'm just looking to make sure my thinking is correct.

WWS - WWS Teron Gorefiend
#6478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vim
While the Totem Imbue is on the party members weapons, they have a 20% chance to proc WF. Having it down all the time as opposed to twisting will not raise the number of procs. On the other hand, you have to be right on top of the twisting cycle so you always have the WF imbue on party members weapons. Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time. WF totem buffs are actually refreshed every 5 seconds, (periodic trigger) so I dont think that they are missing out on any procs unless you dont have WF down as soon as those 9 seconds are up.
#6479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by calem
We did Teron Gorefiend last night and as I was looking through my parse, I saw that I got 32 Windfury totems and 32 Grace of Air totems dropped. Then I looked at the rogues and saw they got 32 WF procs, which makes sense, 1 proc per totem drop.
Actually, according to the buffs&debuffs tab,
Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks:
Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems.
Dhegin got 31 WF attacks.

Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again....
#6480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3calem
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Actually, according to the buffs&debuffs tab,
Tinytalonius got 16 WF attacks:
Miniragnare got 32 WF attacks, which is just coincidence that you dropped 32 wf totems.
Dhegin got 31 WF attacks.

Your group does not gain one WF hit per time you cast WF totem.... If that was true, then this community would suggest that every avaialble cooldown of an enhancement shaman should be used to cast WF totem, again and again....
If you look at the presence section, Miniragnare was the only one to live the whole fight in the group with me. Tiny got shadow of death halfway through and dhegin got it shortly before the end.

The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe.

I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out?
#6481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Emaze
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?

AP - 1
Crit - 2.45
Hit - 1.71
Haste - 1.77
ArmPen - .29
Str - 2.2
Agi - 2.39
Expert - 3.51

And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.

Last edited by Emaze : 01/24/08 at 11:05 PM.
#6482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
If you look at the presence section, Miniragnare was the only one to live the whole fight in the group with me. Tiny got shadow of death halfway through and dhegin got it shortly before the end.

The more I think about this, there must be some kind of 9sec cooldown on WF procs from the totem, or something along those lines. Otherwise the more experienced members of the community would have found a major flaw in totem twisting. If the buff was consumed on proc and could be re-appliedd within 9sec by leaving the totem down, twisting GoA with WF wouldn't be more dps. So I assume the buff isn't consumed but doesn't proc again because of the cooldown. At least that's what the WWS leads me to believe.

I'm thinking out loud, anyone else understand what I'm saying, and more importantly trying to figure out?
There is no 9 second cooldown. It doesn't "consume" any buff or anything like that. Windfury Totem pulses a weapon buff immediately when it is cast and every 5 seconds after that. The buff has a duration of 10 seconds and gives each player a 20% chance to gain one free attack with bonus attack power every time they make an attack with their mainhand weapon.
#6483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Manifesto
There's something which has been irritating me for a while and no one has addressed it...
The front page references Searing totem as a great way to add 70-100 dps, when crowd control isn't an issue. (I actually doubt it's really that high for Enh)
What about the maths on Magma Totem? (Specificlly if you don't twist)

You're always at the bosses feet, so mobility isn't an issue on 9/10 fights. Mana should not be an issue, providing you're not twisting.

I know that Magma Pulses exactly every 2 seconds...
Searing, I believe, has a 2.5 second cast time, however sometimes it waits a little before firing... it can sometimes average a 3 second cast time.

Here's my attempt at some very quick maths...
700 spell damage from AP

Searing Totem 50-66 base damage, 8% spell damage coefficient. 2.5 second cast.
700x0.08 = 56, 106-122, 114 average, every 2.5 seconds. = 45.6 dps.
Call of Flame, 114 +(114x0.15) = 131.1 = 52.4 dps.

Magma Totem 97 base damage, from wowwikki, spell damage coefficient 66.7% (untested, across the entire DoT)
700x0.667 = 466.9 over a 20 second period. 10 pulses in 20 seconds. 46.69 dmg per pulse + base damage.
46.69 + 97 = 143.69. every 2 seconds. = 71.845 dps.
Call of Flame, 143.69 +(143.69x0.15) = 165.24 = 82.62 dps.

This doesn't include crit or resists... we'd also need to finalise those spell coefficients. (Before reading WoWWiki I was under the impression that Flametounge weapon, Searing and Magma totem all recieved 10% per pulse/hit)

Where did the alledged 70-100 dps from searing on the main page come from?
Um, diregard most of the above... Searing must get a significantly higher than 8% coefficient.
Also, I can confirm the cast is actually 2.2s!
EDIT: I got home and did some testing ingame...
With my 1630 Unbuffed Attack power, which obviously fluctuates in raids with procs.
It hits for about 170 ever 2.2s, Magma pulsing for 149/2 sec, So searing gets much more benefit from spell damage... and would scale very nicely.

Boy to I feel silly for all my Magma spam...

Is anyone interested in doing math for maintaining Searing, and dropping Fire Novas every 15 seconds?

Last edited by Manifesto : 01/24/08 at 11:25 PM.
#6484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
I'm not going to do a bunch of math but I will say my searing totem hits or a lot more than 131. With raid buffs it shoots for around 250 and according to Thottbot World of Warcraft: Attack it's a 2.2s cast. With the same buffs my magma totem ticks for about 170.

If we're only hitting one mob it seems pretty easy to figure out which one is better.
#6485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Smokestomp
Originally Posted by Emaze
I was wondering if someone could explain why my EP values in Yo!'s sim are so much different then the "stand" t6 list. Anyone else getting number completely different?

AP - 1
Crit - 2.45
Hit - 1.71
Haste - 1.77
ArmPen - .29
Str - 2.2
Agi - 2.39
Expert - 3.51

And my other question is about expertise. Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.
This doesn't look right. Why is crit and agility so valuable? It was my impressions they couldn't surpass Strength or AP as the primary stat. Interested to see more, as that ring would be upgrade for me if I could run the sim and achieve those values for expertise, atleast.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no?

High Raid (T6) EP Values
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.
Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)
#6486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Smokestomp
The T6 values on the main page need to be revised. Crit and Agility should be equivalent given BoK is assumed, no?
Even with kings crit rating is slightly better than agi for pure dps, most consider the extra dodge from agi to cancel out the meager difference though.
#6487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Emaze
Does that 3.51 rating mean [Shapeshifter's Signet] has a value of 129.95? I got around the same value for expertise when I did the formula.
Yes the Shapeshifter signet is now an amazing ring upgrade for anyone who hasn't gotten a T6 content ring yet.
#6488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes the Shapeshifter signet is now an amazing ring upgrade for anyone who hasn't gotten a T6 content ring yet.
Is there a way to update the mouseover on these forums?
I was very confused why we would want something with dagger skill and feral combat rating.

Also, my expertise value comes out at 2.5, that seems low relative to other peoples, but I do have 8 expertise already.
#6489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Monkeyfun
Ring Enchant

Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?

Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats?


Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long.
#6490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Monkeyfun
Which ring enchant is better for an enhancement shaman?

Increased Weapon damage or +4 to stats?


Sorry if this is a repeat question, the post is rather long.
Originally Posted by Malan
Amazingly, using the "Search this thread" function in the upper right with the terms "enchant ring damage stats" yields many applicable results, including one that directly answers your question. I will decline linking it for you, "Feed a man a fish..." and all that jazz you know.



Use search, really
#6491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Extenze
The Crystalforged Trinket, a Revered rep reward from Ogri'la, has an EP value of 134 (98 [+7 dmg = 98ap] + (216 * 10 / 60))

That would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision.

Last edited by Extenze : 01/25/08 at 1:30 PM.
#6492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Vim
Dropping it late can reduce the groups DPS significantly over time.
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of GoA considered as 3% of their white damage, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)

If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary.

What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS?

GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it).

What's the value of twisting?

They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6%

However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit

What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time?

You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff.

So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping?

(Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/27/08 at 8:56 PM.
#6493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Extenze
The Crystalforged Trinket, ... some bad math ... that would make it better than the Bloodlust Broach, and almost as good as the Ashtongue Talisman of Vision.
+7 DAMAGE = + (7/weapons speed) DPS
2x 2.6s weapons: +2.69 MH DPS, +2.69 OH DPS = ~32 EP + 36 proc = 68 EP.

That trinket is garbage and if you'd searched the thread, you'd have seen that.
#6494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of poison, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)

If I had a group of 1 warrior, three of my best rogue and me, and assuming we all did the same DPS, the average increase in DPS for the group would be 5.52% Your numbers can and will vary.

What's the value of GoA to a group's DPS?

GoA adds about 3% to each of us (the rogues get less crit, but they get AP which helps offset it).

What's the value of twisting?

They're multiplicative; 1.0552 * 1.03 = 8.6%

However, you lose GoA for the 1.5s after you drop WF. This will slightly decrease the benefit

What's the penalty for not dropping Windfury on time?

You go from an 8.2% buff to a 3% buff.

So what's the net benefit, over time, for twisting, w/r to slipping?

(Benefit of WF * 1.5 + Benefit of WF & GoA * 8.5s + Benefit of just GoA * time slipped) / total time

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.
Good mathing, Toots. I don't have the time to poke at it right now, unfortunatly, but knowing how much slip-time I theoretically have, when twisting, is good.

I try to keep slips to below 2s because that is >~MH speed of my sword rogues and ret pally. Worst case I want to keep their un-WF'd hits to a minimum of 1 for totem switches. That's how I've been estimating slip-impact.
#6495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Please, numbers when you use the word "significant." We all have different opinions of "significant;" I defined it as 1% of total DPS.

What's the value of Windfury to a group's DPS?

A contentious issue. Judging by last night's WWS, my Fury warrior gets 6% additional DPS, my best rogue 7.2%.

...

Slip by an average of 0s per cycle over time: 8.14% to total group DPS
Slip by an average of 1s per cycle over time: 7.67% (.47% lost)
Slip by an average of 2s per cycle over time: 7.28% (.86% lost)
Slip by an average of 3s per cycle over time: 6.95% (1.19% lost)

So, you can slip by up to 2s and not SIGNIFICANTLY reduce DPS, IMO.
Equally interesting, your math shows that you still increase DPS by twisting even if you miss by 2 seconds (since the largest benefit to your rogues was 7.2% from WFT). This does, of course, neglect the impact of missed shocks on group DPS, but I would tend to argue that number should be vanishingly slim if you are dropping totems 2s late regularly.
#6496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Subpar
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
#6497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bargle
Originally Posted by Subpar
With the introduction of s3 weapons, how do they stack up to Syphons? I'm newly entering Hyjal/BT and am lucky enough to have both s3 weapons. Should i be spending DKP on any Syphon that drops or are the s3 weapons just plain superior?
Run the sim.
#6498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
(I calculated this by taking a group that had no windfury, removing the benefit of poison, and calculating how much extra DPS they would see from an additonal 20% of 66% of their white damage)
You should take off-hand specialization into accounts and edit numbers to include that. Rogue Oh do 0.75 Mh damage and warrior Oh do 0.625 Mh damage.
#6499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stoneclaw
Concerning meta gem selection:

After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta?
If the RED gives roughly a dps boost of 1% given a crit rating of 30% or more and the BED gives 2% less threat, would that not in theory give a shaman the ability to do 100% damage at 98% threat (I know the calculation becomes a bit less accurate once you factor in Spirit Weapons and BoS, but hear me out) instead of 101% damage at 101% threat? Taking into account that at least some work is going into keeping threat down, there would be potential for dps that may be freed by using the BED.
Of course, this only makes sense if you need to actively decrease threat. But if you do, is it viable?

To finish with a table of what I mean:

If the damage is the limiting factor, not normalized:
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 98% threat
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 101% dmg - 101% threat

If the threat is the limiting factor, normalized to 100% threat:
[Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] - 102.04% dmg - 100% threat
[Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] - 100% dmg - 100% threat
#6500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Stoneclaw
After using the search and finding nothing on using [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond] as an enhancement shaman, here my question: Is it viable to replace the [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as meta?
Sure, if you are threat capped. However, more often, threat is not the limiting factor. If it is, you can always twist Tranquil Air, or if the tank's in your group, you can put Enchant Cloak: Subtlety on an old cloak and keep your RED.
#6501SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
There is no other slot in your equipment you can gain 3% crit damage. You can enchant your cloak with -2% threat. If you are so threat capped that you need an additional -2% threat, (which I think, at this point in passive threat reduction would be tanking problems) than sure...go for it, but I would advise not replacing the RED.
#6502SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
While it's an interesting idea, most of the time you shouldn't be threat-capped, and for those situations where you are you can twist WF/Tranquil Air. Tranquil Air is cheap enough that you should be able to sustain that even if you can't normally sustain twisting, and if you're threat-capped someone else in your group probably is too.

Post 2.3 the only fight where salv and tranquil air aren't enough for me is Gurtogg Bloodboil. Outside of that fight I'd blame threat issues on one of two things:

(1) Your tanks aren't generating as much threat as they should be.

(2) Your paladins aren't giving greater blessing of salvation to shamans, and aren't 10-minute buffing you.


Make sure those two issues are fixed before you gimp yourself by using a healing metagem.
#6503SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
My new "gearing up a tank" gear features a shag helm from Auchindown and a [Bracing Earthstorm Diamond]. The loss of the 3% crit and the stats on my helm combined with the -2% is enough that I can at least autoattack without pulling threat off my friend's freshly 70 warrior.

2.3 helped a lot with threat -- more than I thought it would. I'm not quite ready to get rid of -2% threat on my cape...but my NEXT cape will probably get agility on it.

As for totem twisting -- that's a good strategy provided you aren't grouped with a tank. Threat is never a problem for me in 25 man raids; it can be a problem in 5 and 10 man groups. Especially if I offspec Elemental.
#6504SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
You can simply use two green or only one weapon (and a shield..) if you are threatcapped with your regular gear.

I hardly doubt that those -4% aggro will change anything versus a +25 block value warrior, an 1500 attackpower bear or a 150 spelldamage tankadin.

There shouldn't be any fight in any tier instance where you are actually threatcapped with decent group setups on bossfights. Or your tank's tps is to low for any reason. But there's nothing you should fix then, only your tank. Twisting WF/TaT is nowadays enough for Voidreaver or Gurtogg.

In smaller raids i stop casting shocks, if i have aggro problems with my tanks. It's a large tps decrease for me. Rank 1 earthshock works for interrupts like rank 8 does.
#6505SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bladefire
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 EP
At a full stack, since this will take 10-15 sec to achieve, the EP might be considered less valuable.

Equip: Each time you deal melee or ranged damage to an opponent, you gain 6 attack power for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 20 times. Each time you land a harmful spell on an opponent, you gain 8 spell damage for the next 10 sec., stacking up to 10 times.

So, isn't the EP value of this card a little low since you also gain 8 spell damage from your shock for 10 seconds? Also, it would be interesting to know if this would proc from your searing or magma totem too (if not now in patch 2.4 when totems damage is assigned to you in the combat log.)

I don't have this deck but I would be interested in the results.
#6506SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Bragor
So, isn't the EP value of this card a little low since you also gain 8 spell damage from your shock for 10 seconds? Also, it would be interesting to know if this would proc from your searing or magma totem too (if not now in patch 2.4 when totems damage is assigned to you in the combat log.)
Lets do the math here.

80 (Full Stack) * 0.4 (Coefficient that a shock takes) * (10 Shocks per min/60 seconds) = 5.3 Dps increase.

That of course if you consider shocking each time the 6 second CD is up and you will not have any resists. 1 Resist & the stack will fall and you have to redo it again.

And to have a full stack up it means you will have to shock for about 1 min full time so in theroy you will have actually ~2.3 dps increase from that if it takes a linear line.

So.. in all effect it's very marginal increase for dps if you factor in spelldamge gained.

EDIT: Corrected the math a bit.

Last edited by Bragor : 01/27/08 at 3:16 PM.
#6507SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
If we use the old 1 AP ~= .25 dps calculation, the spell damage part of the trinket is worth ~21 EP.

Which means if you could keep both stacks up 100% of the time, it would be a leetle bit better than the [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision].

But since you can't, due to our shocks' 14% miss chance, it's not. So who cares?
#6508SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
You should take off-hand specialization into accounts and edit numbers to include that. Rogue Oh do 0.75 Mh damage and warrior Oh do 0.625 Mh damage.
Did not remember that. Also did not remember to remove poisons and did not include the numbers for the bonus AP.

Calculating the benefit of Windfury: Extra Attack
WF applies to 57% of a combat rogue's melee damage, 62% of a Fury warrior's, 66% of a hemo rogue's, and 100% of anybody who uses one weapon (MS warriors, tanks, ret pallies). It's an extra attack every five, or a 20% increase.

My fury warrior gets 43% of his damage from melee. 43*.61*.2 = a 5.3% benefit to total dps from an extra attack.
My combat rogue gets 56% of his damage from melee. 56*.57*.2= a 6.4% benefit to total dps from an extra attack.

Note that this also didn't consider the removal of poisons. At 1161 DPS, poisons make up 2% of my rogue's DPS. Which means the net benefit to him of Windfury is actually 4.3%. Since poisons don't scale with gear, the percentage benefit gained from WF will change as rogues progress.

Calculating the benefit of Windfury: AP on Extra Attack
Because there is no cooldown, the extra damage from AP can be reduced to a flat dps increase for all classes:

Extra AP on attack: 445 * 1.3 (enhanced totems) * 1.1 (UR) = 635
Extra damage per WF attack: (635 AP / 14 AP/dps) * weapon speed = 45.4 dps * weapon speed
Avg. Time per WF attack: 5*weapon speed
Extra DPS = extra dam/avg time = 45.4 dps * weapon speed / 5 * weapon speed = 9 dps
#6509SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Bladefire
[Darkmoon Card: Crusade] 120 EP

So, isn't the EP value of this card a little low since you also gain 8 spell damage from your shock for 10 seconds? Also, it would be interesting to know if this would proc from your searing or magma totem too (if not now in patch 2.4 when totems damage is assigned to you in the combat log.)
This does not proc off searing or magma totems, I checked this out a long time ago (maybe even before this thread?). Direct damage only, so flametounge doesn't work either. The other problem is that even with 5s shocks you can't stack this to full capacity with any resists on your target (which toots already pointed out.)

Don't bother with this trinket. It's a waste of money unless they change it to work with non direct spell damage sources. I suppose I'll have to check it again once 2.4 hits, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
#6510SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3peer
Eh, it depends on your level of progression. With my guild I doubt I'll ever see even a Tsunami Talisman, much less an Ashtongue trinket or Madness of the Betrayer, so I use the Crusade card with my DST and I'm very pleased with it (getting the card for cheap also helped). Sure, it's annoying that the spell damage stack falls off with the first Shock resist, but the 80 spell damage is such a minor DPS boost anyway that it shouldn't really affect your decision on whether or not to get the card. The AP stacks up quickly and doesn't require any attention, unlike Bloodlust Brooch or Berserker's Call, which is a blessing for a fairly casual player like me who sometimes forgets to activate on-use trinkets and thus doesn't get the full EP value.

I don't think an ilevel 100 trinket available to someone who just hit 70 is meant to compare to two ilevel 141 trinkets from the Black Temple, in any case
#6511SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
http://rogue.raidcal.com/

Nice toy.
I did have too much time and I played with rogue dps spreadsheet.
I inputed best gear avaible and all buffs/debuffs.
I noticed some wellknown facts and some little suprises.
Baseline is rogue without shaman buffs(no poison in mh) but wth all others stuf around.

Baseline DPS 2057.
If rogue get resto shaman dps will rise to 2243. 7.5% difference.
If rogue get selfish enhance shaman only drop GoA and tell rogue use poison dps will rise to 2365: 12.28% difference.
If rogue get selfish enhance shaman drop GoA and flametongue dps will rise to: 2384. 13% difference.
If rogue get lazy enhance shaman who dont twist dps will raise to 2392. 13.25% diffrence.
If rogue get enhance shaman who twist dps will raise to 2468. 15.9% difference.

Diffenrence beetween GoA + instant poison vs WF totem is suprising low. And its almoust +/- 0 when using lower tier gears without decents raid buffs. When totem twisting fix come and I found myself group with 3*rogue and feral druid I have to rethink what air totem I drop. I m almoust sure that me and feral get > 3 * 27dps benefit at GoA.
#6512SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Is there a way to do a search on only this thread?
#6513SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Is there a way to do a search on only this thread?
The "Search This Thread" box at the top right of the page might be a good place to start.
#6514SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by drats
The "Search This Thread" box at the top right of the page might be a good place to start.
oh crap. I overlooked that part. Was only looking under the Search for the main website.

Thanks
#6515SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Disagree on the card, but I didn't pay a ton of cash for it at all. I use Hourglass on trash and mobile fights, and Crusade on fights where I get to hit stuff a bunch. While I agree that the spell damage component isn't great, I stack it up to 20 for AP very quickly, and riding along at a stack of 3 or 4 for spell damage is just an added bonus. 120ap is decent. Is there better stuff out there? Yep.
#6516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
I m almoust sure that me and feral get > 3 * 27dps benefit at GoA.
I dunno... supposing you have Kings and are getting, say, 1.81 EP from Agil. My DPS:EP ratio is ~0.28. So 1.81 EP/AGI*0.28 DPS/EP*88 AGI = 44.6 DPS. Is the feral getting 36.4 DPS from 88 AGI? My guess would be "yes" in cat gear + cat form, "no" in bear gear + bear form.
#6517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Im trying to sum up the information and figure out if the Darkmoon Card: Crusader is worth it. It seems like there is a conflict of opinion for all you guys.

We just put kara on farm and started gruul so the likelyness of me seeing the DST is not good.

Just going off the Trinket section on the 1st page, I picked the 2 easiest (and best EP value trinekts to get): the crusader card and the bloodlust brooch.

So i have the full deck of blessings but now Im skeptical and considering selling it if its not really worth it.

I just want to make sure that bloodlust brooch + abacus/hourglass would a better overall dps opion(before i make a decision on keeping the crusader card)?

I wasn't sure if you guys were saying the crusader card wasn't good in later endgame conditions where you would already have DST and possibly have a chance for tsunami.

Also for those that use the crusader card, are you spec'd as ele/enh for faster shocks to get the spell damage stacking faster or are you keeping resto offspec for the +3% hit
#6518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
So i have the full deck of blessings but now Im skeptical and considering selling it if its not really worth it.

I just want to make sure that bloodlust brooch + abacus/hourglass would make a better combo ?
The value of that card is not *really* 120 EP since it will take at least 10-15 seconds to activate the full stack of AP. Hourglass and Brooch are much more consistent choices.
#6519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
That 27dps is only when Rogue get best avaible gear and double warglaives + every possible buff + debuff. In real situation dps difference with wf vs goa + poison is smaller. This is only speculation becouse twisting is so much better for everyone and when its get fixed there could be some other major changes too. I didnt test these things to justice dropping GoA I just wanted see some accurate numbers about dps difference.
#6520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3evilution
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Also for those that use the crusader card, are you spec'd as ele/enh for faster shocks to get the spell damage stacking faster or are you keeping resto offspec for the +3% hit
I have only ever been able to maintain a 10 stack of the spell damage buff on a boss when spec'd Ele / enh and even then it drops off eventually (2 resists in a row, re-dropping totems when you should have been shocking, etc). As Resto sub-spec it always seems to drop off around 3 or 4.
#6521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3peer
Surely one resist is enough to make the stack drop off, even with 5-second Shocks? After a resist, the stack should expire right as your Shock cooldown ends. If anything it should drop off LESS often as Enh/Resto because you'll have the 3% spell hit.
#6522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nobunda
Did some searching on this thread... and im a macro kinda guy that likes to take the human error element out. Thus I have been trying to make a couple macros or one macro that will take care of twisting/shocking (for SB totem buff).


#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=12/target/combat Stormstrike, Earthshock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Flameshock
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();
Has anyone else used this... or do you use a different macro. I currently use two macros for twisting.. one with

/castsequence reset=8 [combat] Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, EarthShock

and

/castsequence reset=8 [combat] Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, FlameShock

I just toggle between the two depending on who we have in the raid. There has to be a better way to use they two shocks in sequence as well as twist. Any suggestions?
#6523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
I generally lead with a Flame Shock, so that I can do the various twisting and such before my initial Storm Strike which is then followed up with an Earth Shock. I mainly do this so that it gives me a few to have agro generation.

Of course, in a macro, you might account for a manually initiated flame shock to start
#6524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Nobunda
So your saying something like this... (took the tooltip out as its not necessary IMO)


/castsequence reset=12/target/combat Stormstrike ,Flameshock, Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Earthshock
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear();

The only problem I see with leading off with a Flameshock... if your using the BT trinket [Ashtongue Talisman of Vision] (if it procs) you could get a benefit from the AP on your flameshock. More importantly.. my main concern is if theres any latency will WF drop off my rogues or warriors weapons (as well since I havent used the macro yet (at work currently), will WF drop off anyways due to lengthy macro time).

Last edited by Nobunda : 01/28/08 at 4:50 PM.
#6525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Nobunda
Did some searching on this thread... and im a macro kinda guy that likes to take the human error element out. Thus I have been trying to make a couple macros or one macro that will take care of twisting/shocking (for SB totem buff).




Has anyone else used this... or do you use a different macro. I currently use two macros for twisting.. one with

/castsequence reset=8 [combat] Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, EarthShock

and

/castsequence reset=8 [combat] Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike, FlameShock

I just toggle between the two depending on who we have in the raid. There has to be a better way to use they two shocks in sequence as well as twist. Any suggestions?
The problem with the quoted macro is your whole sequence gets delayed waiting for shocks. Small time line:

0: Stormstrike
1.5: ES
3: WF
4.5: GoA
7.5: FS
10: Stormstrike
13.5: ES
15: WF
16.5 GoA

So you are delaying your sequence by 2 seconds, it ends up being a clusterfuck and really not worth it. I've been doing something along the lines of SS->WF->GoA->FS->SS->WF->ES->GoA->FS->SS->WF->GoA->ES ect, not entirely sure on the accuracy there as it's a groove I fall into while playing.
#6526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nobunda
Originally Posted by rava
The problem with the quoted macro is your whole sequence gets delayed waiting for shocks. Small time line:

0: Stormstrike
1.5: ES
3: WF
4.5: GoA
7.5: FS
10: Stormstrike
13.5: ES
15: WF
16.5 GoA

So you are delaying your sequence by 2 seconds, it ends up being a clusterfuck and really not worth it. I've been doing something along the lines of SS->WF->GoA->FS->SS->WF->ES->GoA->FS->SS->WF->GoA->ES ect, not entirely sure on the accuracy there as it's a groove I fall into while playing.
Yea.. and theres no way to seperate the two by 6sec in a constant streaming macro that will maintain a constant WF imbue. Hmm... Back to the drawing board I guess.
#6527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
That 27dps is only when Rogue get best avaible gear and double warglaives + every possible buff + debuff. In real situation dps difference with wf vs goa + poison is smaller. This is only speculation becouse twisting is so much better for everyone and when its get fixed there could be some other major changes too. I didnt test these things to justice dropping GoA I just wanted see some accurate numbers about dps difference.
I put about as much trust in spreadsheets as I do in my own math (which is to say, not much -- one of the reasons I post here is for peer review), but the long and short of it remains:

- Twisting is best for everybody.
- If you can't/don't twist, WF is slightly better than GoA+Instant for rogues, much better for Fury warriors, much much better for Arms and Prot warriors

With all the zany "Wut u drop 4 tihs group" situations that come up here all the time, I think what might be useful is some quick way for non-twisters to tell, definitely, which totem to drop for best DPS in groups. Percentage benefits taking into account the whole picture (such as the loss of other imbues) would provide a means of doing that. Here's an arbitrary guesstimate for example's sake:

-Arms Warrior: WF 10%, GoA 3%
-Fury Warrior: WF 5.5%, GoA 3%
-Combat Rogue Warrior: WF 4.5%, GoA 3%
-Feral: WF 0%, GoA 3%
-Shaman: 0%, GoA 3%

This allows us to quickly gauge the group benefit of WF/GoA:
Group of Fury/3xC.Rogue/Shaman: avg benefit is WF 3.8%, GoA 3%
Group of Fury/2xC.Rogue/Feral/Shaman: avg benefit is WF 2.9%, GoA 3%
Group of Arms/Fury/2xC.Rogue/Shaman: avg benefit is WF 4.9%, GoA 3%

This would also allow us to compare usefulness of totems with unequal DPS output. Say I have the Fury/2xC.Rogue/Feral/Shaman group above. Say feral does 500 dps w/o a shaman, Fury does 600, CR1 1000, CR2 800, Shaman 700. You'd actually get a 3.1% benefit out of WF in that group.

All we need for this is definitive numbers showing the DPS breakdown of competent melee of various specs, trying their best, raid buffed, but with no shamans around.
#6528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by Malan
The value of that card is not *really* 120 EP since it will take at least 10-15 seconds to activate the full stack of AP. Hourglass and Brooch are much more consistent choices.

Just becuase its consistant, does it mean its better?

What if Im only concerned with boss fight dps? Where once the intial 10 seconds are gone and you have full stacks, you will have full stacks the rest of the fight? (will i lose stacks on say a Gruul shatter or)

Basically, what Im trying to get down to is on a boss fight, will I see better overall dps with the crusader card or the hourglass?

I already have the crusdader deck, i just need to turn it in. I can't seem to get the damned hourglass to drop though.

I just want to make sure before i put this damned thing back up on the auction house

Last edited by Jarlaxle : 01/28/08 at 6:01 PM.
#6529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Just becuase its consistant, does it mean its better?

What if Im only concerned with boss fight dps? Where once the intial 10 seconds are gone and you have full stacks, you will have full stacks the rest of the fight?
Yes, consistent is better. Think of it this way, until the buff is fully stacked you're getting only a fraction of the AP. Contrast that with the Bloodlust Brooch, where you're always getting a base amount of AP and occasionally you're getting a large buff.

No, this card functions as a stacking buff. You start with 1 and work your way up to a max of 10. If at any point you don't attack for 10 seconds the buff goes back to 0 and you need to start again.

We've been specifically talking about boss fight DPS this whole time. This card would be horrible for bosses like Gruul, Leo, etc. I tried using it while working on SSC/TK and found that it pales in comparison to a lot of the other trinkets on the OP.

If you really want to try it, go ahead. Just don't say we didn't warn you.

Edit: You edited while I was responding. Hourglass is better. And please spellcheck/capitalize properly before you get an infraction.
#6530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by drats
Yes, consistent is better. Think of it this way, until the buff is fully stacked you're getting only a fraction of the AP. Contrast that with the Bloodlust Brooch, where you're always getting a base amount of AP and occasionally you're getting a large buff.

No, this card functions as a stacking buff. You start with 1 and work your way up to a max of 10. If at any point you don't attack for 10 seconds the buff goes back to 0 and you need to start again.

We've been specifically talking about boss fight DPS this whole time. This card would be horrible for bosses like Gruul, Leo, etc. I tried using it while working on SSC/TK and found that it pales in comparison to a lot of the other trinkets on the OP.

If you really want to try it, go ahead. Just don't say we didn't warn you.

Edit: You edited while I was responding. Hourglass is better. And please spellcheck/capitalize properly before you get an infraction.

Okay. Thanks for the help drats, I really appriciate it. Im going to try and get the hourglass I suppose. I figured it would be bad for Gruul...and yes the leo fight would be awful with it.
#6531SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
One macro is really all you need.
/castsequence Windfury Totem, Grace of Air
You've got to press 4 keys then:
SS
Earth Shock
Flame Shock
Twist.

You *could* do a /castsequence Flame Shock, Earth Shock but then you lose the flexibility to Flame Shock again if it was resisted.
#6532SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Rob
One macro is really all you need.
/castsequence Windfury Totem, Grace of Air
You've got to press 4 keys then:
SS
Earth Shock
Flame Shock
Twist.

You *could* do a /castsequence Flame Shock, Earth Shock but then you lose the flexibility to Flame Shock again if it was resisted.
Yup this is exactly how I do it,

I have a SS key (say 1 for example), a ES key (2), a FS key (3) and a WF/GoA castsequence macro (4)

Before the fight starts I drop WF and rest of totems. Then soon as combat starts I simply get into my rountine of 1,4,4,3,1,4,4,2,1,4,4,3 rinse repeat. Theres bit of extra "free" time floating around during the sequence that I use for extra shocks, refreshing totems, pots etc. Once you I get into the routine I don't even look at disqodice bars any more I just base it purely around the 10 sec SS, soon as I SS I know WF will have ~1 second left and needs recasting.
#6533SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
Umm why do you say that Hourglass is the better Trinket over Crusader Card?? Hourglass is worth 109 aep and crusader card 120 I don´t see the point to justify subtracting 10% off Crusader Card, there are so many fights in which you can maybe subtract 1%!!

In SSC the stack should only fall off on LEotheras, in TK most likely on Al'ar Phase 1 ...

I used it a long time as it is technically better then Bloodlust Brooch anyway and I just replaced it with the Ashtongue Talisman.
#6534SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rhagok
Umm why do you say that Hourglass is the better Trinket over Crusader Card?? Hourglass is worth 109 aep and crusader card 120 I don´t see the point to justify subtracting 10% off Crusader Card, there are so many fights in which you can maybe subtract 1%!!
Are you serious? Did we not just go over this for the last page of posts?
#6535SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by Mox
Yup this is exactly how I do it,

I have a SS key (say 1 for example), a ES key (2), a FS key (3) and a WF/GoA castsequence macro (4)

Before the fight starts I drop WF and rest of totems. Then soon as combat starts I simply get into my rountine of 1,4,4,3,1,4,4,2,1,4,4,3 rinse repeat. Theres bit of extra "free" time floating around during the sequence that I use for extra shocks, refreshing totems, pots etc. Once you I get into the routine I don't even look at disqodice bars any more I just base it purely around the 10 sec SS, soon as I SS I know WF will have ~1 second left and needs recasting.
I want to really start trying this out. I figured though by the time I get the hang of it and make it efficient enough to use in raid conditions, the newest patch will come out and fix totem twisting. (or so I'm told)
#6536SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3TooGood
Overvalue of Dragonmaw proc on YO's

With all thats been said about the overvalue of the haste proc on YO's simulator for the Dragon line of BS hammers. I am going to throw my question to the wolves.

I have ran multipule simulations to figure out which combonation of current weapons would give me the best DPS but am concerned with weather the calculation's are correct. I currently have the Dragonmaw, Merc Glad and S1 Glad weapons. I have been using the Dragonmaw & Merc Glad for raiding currently. I havent yet obtained the Nether Vortex's needed to upgrade to the Dragonstrike since we have just started SSC. I am curious if i would benefit more from having Merc Glad MH and Glad OH over my current set up due to the greater DPS on MH and the added stat bonus over the haste rating proc and lower DPS MH. YO's gives a very very slight DPS advantage to the Dragonmaw MH combo, however if that is overvalueing the haste proc is that wrong?

I ran a seach on this topic and found that there is very little in reguards to Dragonmaw since most here are able to obtain the Dragonstrike.

Thank You
#6537SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by TooGood
With all thats been said about the overvalue of the haste proc on YO's simulator for the Dragon line of BS hammers. I am going to throw my question to the wolves.

I have ran multipule simulations to figure out which combonation of current weapons would give me the best DPS but am concerned with weather the calculation's are correct. I currently have the Dragonmaw, Merc Glad and S1 Glad weapons. I have been using the Dragonmaw & Merc Glad for raiding currently. I havent yet obtained the Nether Vortex's needed to upgrade to the Dragonstrike since we have just started SSC. I am curious if i would benefit more from having Merc Glad MH and Glad OH over my current set up due to the greater DPS on MH and the added stat bonus over the haste rating proc and lower DPS MH. YO's gives a very very slight DPS advantage to the Dragonmaw MH combo, however if that is overvalueing the haste proc is that wrong?

I ran a seach on this topic and found that there is very little in reguards to Dragonmaw since most here are able to obtain the Dragonstrike.

Thank You
If the sim is saying the dragonmaw MH/merc OH is best, then use it. The sim doesn't overvalue it to a large extent, and I believe Yo even posted recently saying he's cut the proc back alot in a recent update.

The stats on S1 weps aren't anything great either.
#6538SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
he newest patch will come out and fix totem twisting. (or so I'm told)
It won't. If by some act of god they do fix it I fear for my own sanity. I get bored enough with twisting so I can't imagine losing 50% of my buttons(although I suppose doing the same zone since June will have that effect ...).
#6539SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by rava
It won't. If by some act of god they do fix it I fear for my own sanity. I get bored enough with twisting so I can't imagine losing 50% of my buttons(although I suppose doing the same zone since June will have that effect ...).
We have more buttons to push than most classes, and timers to watch and totem ranges to stay in and various other things.
#6540SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Rava, if the loss of twisting is the only nerf we see in 2.4, I'll be happy.

And hey, you can always twist Fire Nova and Searing!
#6541SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Paradox
We have more buttons to push than most classes, and timers to watch and totem ranges to stay in and various other things.
Yeah we should think ourselves lucky! All our warlocks do for a whole raid is spam 1 button over and over.... shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt, now thats boring
#6542SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Powercut
hi to all.
First of all gratz for this useful forum
I'm sure somewhere there's already a question like this but i didn't found it
It's better executioner+mongoose or double executioner in terms of dps?
I'm going to take the s3 offhand and i don't really know which enchant do on that ... (i already have the executioner in MH).
For pvp i think double executioner would be better, but in pve? it could be good anyway? Or exe+mon will give a better dps boost?

Thx for the answers



(Sry for my bad english XD)
#6543SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nobunda
Originally Posted by Mox
Yup this is exactly how I do it,

I have a SS key (say 1 for example), a ES key (2), a FS key (3) and a WF/GoA castsequence macro (4)

Before the fight starts I drop WF and rest of totems. Then soon as combat starts I simply get into my rountine of 1,4,4,3,1,4,4,2,1,4,4,3 rinse repeat. Theres bit of extra "free" time floating around during the sequence that I use for extra shocks, refreshing totems, pots etc. Once you I get into the routine I don't even look at disqodice bars any more I just base it purely around the 10 sec SS, soon as I SS I know WF will have ~1 second left and needs recasting.

Last night I actually messed around with bars and came up with the exact same layout with a few alterations.

[1] /castrandom Stormstike, Purge
[2] Earthshock
[3] Flameshock
[4] Twist macro w/ Stormstrike added in (Stormstrike, WF, GOA)
[5] frostshock
[6] recall totems

With a fang keypad this seems to be my new fav set up. It seemed to work well as I was able to just spam [4] the whole time and alter between [2] & [3]. I like having the [1] key with SS/purge for pvp and the occasional mob that need alil purge'n.

Thanks for you help guys.
#6544SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nobunda
Originally Posted by Powercut
hi to all.
First of all gratz for this useful forum
I'm sure somewhere there's already a question like this but i didn't found it
It's better executioner+mongoose or double executioner in terms of dps?
I'm going to take the s3 offhand and i don't really know which enchant do on that ... (i already have the executioner in MH).
For pvp i think double executioner would be better, but in pve? it could be good anyway? Or exe+mon will give a better dps boost?

Thx for the answers



(Sry for my bad english XD)
The OP post has a section that covers your question.
#6545SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fluweel
Hello,

I am enhancement shaman for some days. And I find it difficult to go up in the 8 first to the dps (raid which has just fallen Magtheridon). Have you advice to ameliorate my equipment ?

Armory : Fluweel link
wow web stat : Gruul exemple


P.S. : Sorry for my english
#6546SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Marsius
Originally Posted by Mox
Yeah we should think ourselves lucky! All our warlocks do for a whole raid is spam 1 button over and over.... shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt shadowbolt, now thats boring
Playing a lock used to be a blast. Like any good lock I opened up my raiding career as affliction and didn't make the change over to destro until the gear and content was there. Affliction was fun. Seemingly always a button to press and eyes bouncing between Omen, DoTimer and the occasional glance at what was actually happening in the fight.

With destro it started with a total of four different buttons for most fights. Then three. Then two. My shadowbolt key on my lappy is somewhat loose now . . .

My shammy gets to stare at big numbers, big timers and big cooldowns. I'm definitely enjoying this one.
#6547SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macar
Originally Posted by Fluweel
Hello,

I am enhancement shaman for some days. And I find it difficult to go up in the 8 first to the dps (raid which has just fallen Magtheridon). Have you advice to ameliorate my equipment ?

Armory : Fluweel link
wow web stat : Gruul exemple


P.S. : Sorry for my english
Go to Crazy Shaman's DPS & AEP calculator (c) Yo and put in your stats there and let the calculator determine stat weights for you.

Then get over to Loot Rank and fill in those values you got from Yo!'s simulator. And you will see what equipment would be good for you.

And do not be afraid to use leather, if your guild allows you to roll/bid on it together with the Rogues and feral Druids.
#6548SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Can also check out maxdps.com, it's not quite as accurate as you would get from doing the work with the sim, but gives you a ballpark list of items to shoot for.
#6549SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
+ Redesigned Buffs&Debuffs page: implemented some new buffs, some obsolete buffs were removed. Consumables are not finished - those that are not coded are marked with //. DPS with default values shifted due to this. Please report bugs if found
+ Introduced Str and Agi fields for calculating bonus from King. (Used 300,300 as initial values - I was actually surprised, after browsing some armory profiles, how big variance is for those values, some have 100,400, some - other way around)
+ Lowered "true" ppm of Dragonstrike to 1 ppm (from 2). Now it is up about 25% as was reported in game (was about 40%). Blizz should make detailed info about various procs available. Still have no info on MH ring proc
#6550SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Yo did you change the java version required? I'm using build 1.5.0_14 at work and it failed to load today.

Nevermind, problem was my fault, bad soft link.

Last edited by Malan : 01/30/08 at 1:14 PM.
#6551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Yo did you change the java version required? I'm using build 1.5.0_14 at work and it failed to load today.

Nevermind, problem was my fault, bad soft link.

Last edited by Malan : 01/30/08 at 2:14 PM.
#6552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Macar
if your guild allows you to roll/bid on it together with the Rogues and feral Druids.
...which it should. In T4 content, leather generally has far better raid stats for Enh. shamans than mail does. If your rogues cry foul, remind them you're already sharing neck, ring, weapon and trinkets and that the DPS boost you get from leather is similar to or greater than what they would get, helping the whole raid. Just be careful: roll only on major upgrades, and you should have little drama.

Fluweel -- Your guild's DPS seems to be fairly flat, it shouldn't take much to lead the pack. Actually, considering your stats your personal DPS is quite good -- you're playing very well. Your gear isn't too bad -- some badge leather would give you a nice boost, but your weakest point is your rings and trinkets. They all suck.
#6553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Malan
Yo did you change the java version required?
No...
#6554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3similoski
dragonstrike

Atm I am using a Dragonstrike and a Netherbane, my guild has killed the first 3 bosses in Hyjal last night and are going into BT tonight... I am wondering should i go for a Rising Tide or a Syphon with my dragonstrike? or get both?
#6555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
No...
It was on my end after all. Anyhow, a lot of the labels on the sim isn't displaying properly in firefox, its like you made the width of the text field too short for the actual text labels, so all I can see is part of the label and a (...)

Also Lootzor is pretty much a dead site, you should change the export option to LootRank.com
#6556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalamadea
Spent some time messing around with Excel trying to come up with a castsequence macro:

My order came up with:

FS, WF, GoA, SS, ES, WF, GoA, Water Shield - Repeats from start.

Issues I'm seeing is the frequency of recasting WF/GoA totem. Would using rank 1 WF totem make this sustainable?

Also, there is a 2 sec delay in Stormstrikes between CD up and cast. Would the solid casts of Shocks make up for the additional delay on SS?
#6557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Yo!
+ Redesigned Buffs&Debuffs page: implemented some new buffs, some obsolete buffs were removed. Consumables are not finished - those that are not coded are marked with //. DPS with default values shifted due to this. Please report bugs if found
+ Introduced Str and Agi fields for calculating bonus from King. (Used 300,300 as initial values - I was actually surprised, after browsing some armory profiles, how big variance is for those values, some have 100,400, some - other way around)
+ Lowered "true" ppm of Dragonstrike to 1 ppm (from 2). Now it is up about 25% as was reported in game (was about 40%). Blizz should make detailed info about various procs available. Still have no info on MH ring proc
Having just gotten this ring myself, what sort of information would you need to come up with a reliable model for this ring? Would an uptimemeter screenshot of something like teron be enough? A combat log parse for a night's raiding? The last I remember this ring being mentioned was by Stigmata nearly 100 pages of posts ago.

Also, thank you for the str/agi fields for kings! I always felt silly wandering around Shat/IF asking for a kings buff.

edit:
@kala
I have no trouble sustaining my totem twisting when I bother to do it these days. On any fight that lends itself to twisting, it takes me far too long to run out of mana before SR comes back off cooldown. I have never really even considered downranking my WF totem. Better options if you find yourself managing to run out of mana would be to simply stop twisting for a short time until water shield catches back up or SR comes off cooldown (or take a pot).

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 01/30/08 at 2:37 PM.
#6558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
@kala
I have no trouble sustaining my totem twisting when I bother to do it these days. On any fight that lends itself to twisting, it takes me far too long to run out of mana before SR comes back off cooldown. I have never really even considered downranking my WF totem. Better options if you find yourself managing to run out of mana would be to simply stop twisting for a short time until water shield catches back up or SR comes off cooldown (or take a pot).
I also have found this to be the case, as Enh/Resto with 5 in Totemic Mastery, I have no major mana issues with twisting, and the only time I have an issue is if some mob is mana draining me, in which case SR / Pot and I'm golden. It may all be moot in a month or so anyway.
#6559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
For testing just the uptime of a proc, the blasted lands mobs should still be good. You should also grab procwatch, if you don't have it already.

Speaking of uptimes, does the DST proc happen less often since 2.3 or am I just horribly unlucky? According to the OP it's 1.5 but I know I see it a lot less than executioner and mongoose.
#6560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by drats
en less often since 2.3 or am I just horribly unlucky? According to the OP it's 1.5 but I know I see it a lot less than executioner and mongoose.

I'm not sure they messed with the proc rate, but perhaps it was a longer cooldown between procs? You know how Blizzard loves those 'hidden' cooldowns.
#6561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Kalamadea
Appologize for the length, trying to show the rotations.



Each tick represents .5 secs of time elapsed. FS/ES/SS is shown first by GCD use, then duration.

Last edited by Kalamadea : 01/30/08 at 4:06 PM.
#6562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fearlezz
Originally Posted by Kalamadea
Appologize for the length, trying to show the rotations.



Each tick represents .5 secs of time elapsed. FS/ES/SS is shown first by GCD use, then duration.
This might work if your ping was 0 and you had reflexes and timgin out of this world
#6563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Kalamadea
Appologize for the length, trying to show the rotations.
SS is your most powerful ability, why would you delay it?
#6564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by drats
For testing just the uptime of a proc, the blasted lands mobs should still be good. You should also grab procwatch, if you don't have it already.

Speaking of uptimes, does the DST proc happen less often since 2.3 or am I just horribly unlucky? According to the OP it's 1.5 but I know I see it a lot less than executioner and mongoose.
http://elitistjerks.com/500339-post451.html
#6565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Im starting to get into totem twisting and I think I am doing fairly well on my part. I remember reading in a previous post where a fellow shaman posted that he had dropped x number of WF totems and y number of GoA totems and saw that the everyone of the melee in his group did infact receive x number of WF hits.

Was wondering what mod that was?

Edit: Couldn't seem to come up with a search on add-ons or mods either.

Was curious what other mods you guys use that are good for enhc shamans other than Enhancer
#6566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Still have no info on MH ring proc
The MH exalted ring is ~1 ppm, thats the results I got while using it.
#6567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Kalamade that rotation would work for you if you want mash button and watch tv at same time. I tryed with sim how big the dps loss would be.
You get 20 shock isntead of 18 in 2minute window. Sim says that is about +22dps. 2s Delayed SS is about two times bigger loss than pvp 4-set bonus worth. Thats like -28dps loss. Also Wf totem uptime is only 10s/12s = 83.3% in best case scenario that would be like 0.25% dps loss for 3-4 group members this is about 10-20dps. You loss dps and gain boring spam game.
#6568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3katheavus
Flametongue totem

Hey guys, I'm new here so be nice! I've used the search function but have so far been unable to find what I'm looking for.

I have a question about how flametongue totem works

According to Wowwiki:

Summons a totem that enchants
Flametongue to all party members' main-hand weapons.
Each hit causes 19.4 to 59.7 additional Fire damage.

I'm curious as to how that works. I've thought up 2 ways.
1) Every strike will trigger additional fire damage proc for anywhere between 19.4 and 59.7 damage.
2) Every strike will trigger an additional fire damage proc, which will do damage depending on weapon speed.

Is the damage completely random or does it depend on weapon speed? (IE: 3.4 speed weapons get 59.7 fire damage per hit and 1.0 speed weapons get 19.4 fire damage? (just random examples, not based on any kind of math))

Thank you!
#6569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
It's based on weapon speed. It's a terrible totem that hasn't had any real purpose in the last 3 years.
#6570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3katheavus
I see, thank you.

Do you happen to know the exact formula?
The only reason I ask is I just used the rogue DPS spreadsheet and astonishingly it told me that Grace of Air + Flametongue > Windfury O_o
Kinda want to figure out how that happened
#6571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalamadea
Originally Posted by Yo!
SS is your most powerful ability, why would you delay it?

What's the ideal rotation then? Something has to give.
#6572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Thanks to Yo! for the updates.
#6573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I have never really even considered downranking my WF totem. Better options if you find yourself managing to run out of mana would be to simply stop twisting for a short time until water shield catches back up or SR comes off cooldown (or take a pot).
Even though it should never happen, going out of mana is BAD for a shaman. ~23% of our personal DPS comes directly from mana expenditures.

Downranking WF to rank 1 saves 184 mana every 10s. That's the equivalent of 92 mp5, at a cost of 6 dps per member receiving Windfury.

That's not a whole heck of a lot...it's only 24 party dps at most...and if your options are to drop a rank 1 WF totem OR miss out on some GoA and shocks/strikes, I have to imagine the downranked totem is the better option.
#6574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Yo!
SS is your most powerful ability, why would you delay it?
Stormstrike is our LEAST powerful ability until well into the end game.

Most of the WWS parses I've seen show strikes making up 8-10% of our personal damage. Post MQ, Shocks make up more like 12-16%.

WF adds at least 4% to other melee, GoA 3% to everybody. Assuming everybody does the same DPS, WF is worth at least 16% of our personal DPS, GoA around 15% of our dps.

So if you want to prioritize the three in terms of total party DPS output, it's WF, GoA, Shock, Strikes.

Avg shock dps:
Avg Shock Dam + (30% of AP * the average coefficient of FS & ES) / shock CD * hit chance
((736 + ((AP * .3) * .5))/6) * .86

Avg strike dps:
(MH strike + OH strike / ss CD ) * Crit chance
((((AP/14)+MH dps) * spd) + (((AP/14) + OH dps) * spd /2))/10) * crit chance

An absurd example:
100 dps 2.6s weapons, 40% crit chance, 2000 AP: shocks: 147 dps, strike: 130 dps
100 dps 2.6s weapons, 40% crit chance, 3000 AP: shocks: 177 dps, strike: 170 dps
100 dps 2.6s weapons, 40% crit chance, 4000 AP: shocks: 191 dps, strike: 210 dps

Keep in mind: shocks are going to be undervalued in simulation by about half in default simulations because the default is 10 shocks every 2 minutes. Even with heavy twisting your numbers shouldn't be that bad.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/30/08 at 7:39 PM.
#6575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Fearlezz
This might work if your ping was 0 and you had reflexes and timgin out of this world
Every rotation makes this assumption, because lag -- both human and mechanical -- is more or less constant to an individual on a machine. Within a given rotation, you can solve for the effects of a given amount of lag on that rotation to find out what you're losing and adjust accordingly. If you build lag into a rotation, you can't compare it to a rotation that doesn't build in lag.
#6576SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
The choice is which ability to delay. We don't care about which one contributes more to our total damage number. If both cooldowns are up, you should Stormstrike before shocking.
#6577SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Of course we care about it. We delay abilities such that we suffer the least from delay -- so we delay the one that contributes the least overall dps.

Course, I usually decide it like this: if Flame shock is next in the shock rotation, I shock first. If Earth shock is next, I strike first.
#6578SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
How do you factor in that SS is our only Instant that can proc WF. So I suppose you wait for WF CD to be up, otherwise you are gimping your DpS so ... Now if it is up you have a 36% chance on SS to proc a MH WF. And that one surely is our most powerful ability isn´t it.
#6579SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Course, I usually decide it like this: if Flame shock is next in the shock rotation, I shock first. If Earth shock is next, I strike first.
I'll usually do the opposite, but I guess that comes down to whether you A) raid with an elemental shaman, and B) care more about raid DPS than personal DPS.
#6580SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Stormstrike is our LEAST powerful ability until well into the end game.

Most of the WWS parses I've seen show strikes making up 8-10% of our personal damage. Post MQ, Shocks make up more like 12-16%.
This is false logic. You are comparing overall damage of SS limited by 10 s cooldown with shocks that have 5 or 6 s cooldown instead of comparing one SS to one shock. So you say that if you are given a choice what to do when cooldowns for SS and shock end at the same time you rather shock instead of SS with a chance for WF? What if SS would have 100 s cooldown and deal 10x damage that it is doing now?
#6581SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rhagok
How do you factor in that SS is our only Instant that can proc WF. So I suppose you wait for WF CD to be up, otherwise you are gimping your DpS so ... Now if it is up you have a 36% chance on SS to proc a MH WF. And that one surely is our most powerful ability isn´t it.
A few pages back, when Yo's simulator first included a "Sleep SS up to X s" button, I showed that you lose almost all the benefit from the extra chances to proc WF if you slip even one shock every 2 minutes.

Same holds true here.
#6582SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
I'll usually do the opposite, but I guess that comes down to whether you A) raid with an elemental shaman, and B) care more about raid DPS than personal DPS.
No, it doesn't. One Stormstrike will do more damage than one shock. You should always SS before shocking if you have to make that choice. How much each ability contributes to our total damage output is irrelevant. Shocks only contribute more total damage because they have a shorter cooldown. And actually, after you factor in Windfury procs from SS, I doubt shocks even contribute more total damage.

One Stormstrike will deal more damage than one shock. This is all that matters when making this decision. I do agree that totem twisting takes priority over both SS and shocking.
#6583SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
On top of doing more damage SS has chance to proc WF, flurry, on-hit trinkets etc...
Waiting for WF cooldown is not related to the perfect-rotation graph that was being discussed.
If you want to factor that methodic in - SS and shock won't overlap during WF cooldown in the first place because you are waiting with SS so the choice is limited to shock.
If you have to make a choice outside WF cooldown - SS is better.
What "same holds here" is here?
There is no point in upkeeping 24 shocks per 2 min by delaying SSs.
#6584SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Yo!
This is false logic. You are comparing overall damage of SS limited by 10 s cooldown with shocks that have 5 or 6 s cooldown instead of comparing one SS to one shock. So you say that if you are given a choice what to do when cooldowns for SS and shock end at the same time you rather shock instead of SS with a chance for WF?
Let's not toss around "false logic," here.

We don't compare ONE shock to ONE SS because we aren't REMOVING actions from the cycle, at least not directly -- we're delaying them, to make way for other actions. That action is still occurring, it's just occurring later.

DPS is damage over time...we aren't decreasing the damage, we're increasing the time it takes to deliver. If you slip 1s off one cycle or the other every minute, it takes 1.7% longer to deliver that amount of dps. It doesn't matter which cycle it is:

Strikes (considered as 8% of dps) takes 1.7% longer: (8% dps * 10s)/ (10s * 1.017) = 7.86%
Shocks (considered as 15% of dps) takes 1.7% longer: (15% dps * 6s)/ (6s * 1.017) = 14.74%

The chance for WF isn't a meaningless point, but look at it this way: SS offers us an extra 20 hits per 100s. Slipping by 1.7% would make this an average of 19.6 hits per 100s. What's the added value to WF for .4% hit?
#6585SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Yo!
There is no point in upkeeping 24 shocks per 2 min by delaying SSs.
Well, there's no argument there, either, since somebody maintaining a 5s shock cycle would never collide with their strike cycle. They also wouldn't be twisting, because that's insane.

Anyway, you're better equipped than I am to settle this debate, because you have a codebase and all I have is crazy math: Model the GCD. Give us the option to prioritize:
Strike over shock
Shock over strike
Flame shock over strike, strike over earth shock.
#6586SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Sebudai
I don't understand how you could make this so complicated. They're both instant. Stormstrike does more damage and costs less mana. If Stormstrike had a 3 minute cooldown and contributed only 1% to our total damage output you would still want to prioritize it over a shock. The amount of damage each ability contributes to our overall total is completely meaningless.
#6587SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Let's not toss around "false logic," here.

We don't compare ONE shock to ONE SS because we aren't REMOVING actions from the cycle, at least not directly -- we're delaying them, to make way for other actions. That action is still occurring, it's just occurring later.
How about if there is window for just one ability because after that you have to drop totem and you do not want to loose that? That's how "best possible cycles" are theorycrafted - almost all of the cooldowns are used and shock is lowest priority so you are actually going to loose it sometime. Or SS. Your choice?
#6588SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
I have to go with Sebudai here definitely. If you have one ability that does more damage than any other ability you have. It does not depend at all on which cooldown it is, you want to use it as often and therefore as soon as possible (And this ability is SS outside of WF CD just to make sure my words aren´t turned at me later). Otherwise it will result in a loss of DpS.
#6589SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3jwwpua
Yo!

Any possibility of adding a "target resilience" option to help weigh AP vs. crit in PvP? I ran tests such as lowering my crit % by 10% to sort of simulate hitting a target with 400 resilience. It gave me a crit rating of 2.14, but that doesn't factor in the reduced damage done from resilience (20% in that example).

Anyways, great work on the sim, very helpful!
#6590SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Stormstrike is our LEAST powerful ability until well into the end game.

Most of the WWS parses I've seen show strikes making up 8-10% of our personal damage. Post MQ, Shocks make up more like 12-16%.
SS procs WF, shocks don't. If you have a 2.6 weapon and are flurried 100% of the time ceteris paribus Stormstrike will account for 1/6 of your WF procs and damage. Since most of us aren't flurried 100% of the time, it's even more than that. Using some theoretical "8% SS, 12% shocks, 30% WF" numbers, SS accounts for a larger percentage of your damage.
#6591SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by jwwpua
Yo!

Any possibility of adding a "target resilience" option to help weigh AP vs. crit in PvP? I ran tests such as lowering my crit % by 10% to sort of simulate hitting a target with 400 resilience. It gave me a crit rating of 2.14, but that doesn't factor in the reduced damage done from resilience (20% in that example).

Anyways, great work on the sim, very helpful!
For pvp you also have no glancing blows and no level difference. I plan to add pvp option later though it will be of limited use as far as I understand challenges that we face in pvp. You will rely heavily on feelings what weight to assign to stam, dodge from agi etc... Interapts in dealing damage are also unpredictable and change quality of damage output.

SS procs WF, shocks don't. If you have a 2.6 weapon and are flurried 100% of the time ceteris paribus Stormstrike will account for 1/6 of your WF procs and damage. Since most of us aren't flurried 100% of the time, it's even more than that. Using some theoretical "8% SS, 12% shocks, 30% WF" numbers, SS accounts for a larger percentage of your damage.
Well, there is an option in the sim to disable SS so it is possible to find what truly deals more overall damage. Shocks deal more. In regards to WF it shows that SS increases WF damage by 10% only if not waiting for cooldown and by 20% if waiting. But overall damage is not a factor in choosing what instant ability to use.

Last edited by Yo! : 01/31/08 at 12:16 AM.
#6592SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Proposed change(s) to the main post -- comments?

Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3" so you'll probably want to fix one to be labeled VIII.4. I'm not sure how much of a priority continuing to maintain this thread is with the TTT coming along, so I guess don't bend over backwards to fix that.

VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons

Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Generally speaking, if you are an orc, you will want to choose axes for the +5 Expertise Bonus.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

-----

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.

Last edited by Rob : 01/31/08 at 12:56 AM.
#6593SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.
#6594SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.
Do you have a cite on that? My understanding was that the expertise will only apply to the hand using the axe if you are only wielding one axe.
#6595SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Iune
Wouldn't you ES or FS before SS if there was more than 1.5s of WF HCD still up? Could be a no-brainer though.
#6596SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
First time poster saying hi!

Anyway

I whored a second syphon the other week to replace my rising tide for my MH. Was this a good call? Yo's! sim shows my DPS should go up using 2 x Dual Syphons over Rising Tide/Syphon but it feels like im lower down in DPS. I dont have time to parse it with both combinations in BL. Only have time for raids and work!

So

Syphon(exe)/Syphon(mong) > Rising Tide(exe)/Syphon(Mong) ?

Thanks
#6597SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Paradox
Originally Posted by Khaul
First time poster saying hi!

Anyway

I whored a second syphon the other week to replace my rising tide for my MH. Was this a good call? Yo's! sim shows my DPS should go up using 2 x Dual Syphons over Rising Tide/Syphon but it feels like im lower down in DPS. I dont have time to parse it with both combinations in BL. Only have time for raids and work!

So

Syphon(exe)/Syphon(mong) > Rising Tide(exe)/Syphon(Mong) ?

Thanks
The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.
From first post.

A question about the sim... I noticed some new changes.

Do I input my stats WITH Kings now? Or just input all my base stats, including base agi/strength, and the sim will calculate BoK now?

And a suggestion/request, how about the ability to save profiles on the sim?

Last edited by Paradox : 01/31/08 at 8:38 AM.
#6598SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Paradox
From first post.
A question about the sim... I noticed some new changes.
Do I input my stats WITH Kings now? Or just input all my base stats, including base agi/strength, and the sim will calculate BoK now?
Base stats, including base agi/strength
#6599SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalamadea
When modeling the rotations need a clarification: WF totem applies the weapon buff every 5 secs. Does it last for 10 or 9 sec? When it applies the buff, should the model start the WF buff loss timer at the 0 sec mark, .5, 1, or 1.5 sec when GoA is dropped?
#6600SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Rob
Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3"
Oops. I blame that on the lack of foresight to split that wall of text into multiple posts to make editing easier.

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.
I'll see what I can whip up today. I'd love to do some general restructuring of the layout but its such a huge pain in the ass with the limited editing tools, even if I copy it to a word doc I still end up having to manually renumber sections and stuff.

[e] I would like to propose the following restructuring, which would also follow through to the ThinkTank wiki whenever Boe finally opens it.

1. General Intro
a) General idea of what the spec brings to a group
b) Overview that we are highly gear dependent, perhaps more than any other class. DPS is dependent on the gear more than on player input

2. Major Abilities
a) Windfury and its mechanics
b) Flametongue and its inbred cousin Frostbrand
c) Stormstrike
d) Shocks

3. Talent Builds
a) Elemental/Resto subspecs
b) The Myth of Elemental Devastation

4. Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman (Or, we know better than Blizzard does)
a) Stat Weights
...1) Examples
...2) Hit Rating
...3) Haste Rating
...4) Int/Mp5
...5) Expertise
b) Weapons
...1) MH
...2) OH
...3) 2H viability?
c) Relics
d) Gems and Meta Gems
e) Trinkets
f) Enchanting your gear
g) Consumables

5. In a group setting ...
a) Totem usage
b) Dealing with threat

6. For Raid Leaders ...
a) Group compositions
b) Evaluating Enhancement Shaman with WWS

7. Simulations

8. Itemization links and popular addons

9. Brief overview of Enhancement PvP

10. Changelog

Last edited by Malan : 01/31/08 at 10:34 AM.
#6601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob
SS procs WF, shocks don't. If you have a 2.6 weapon and are flurried 100% of the time ceteris paribus Stormstrike will account for 1/6 of your WF procs and damage. Since most of us aren't flurried 100% of the time, it's even more than that. Using some theoretical "8% SS, 12% shocks, 30% WF" numbers, SS accounts for a larger percentage of your damage.
Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine). Still, the effect of SS timing on Windfury should be similar to the effect of hit rating on Windfury -- if stacking hit rating isn't a huge buff, then slipping SS shouldn't be a huge hit.

Of course, if what we're talking about is folks with some zany cycle that is going to result in the sacrificing one ability or the other, then yes, this will add up to less WF. (I didn't realize this was the suggestion; I thought we were discussing the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s). With WF being such a feedback system, and considering that picking shocks vs strikes doesn't look like it'll have a 1% benefit in either direction, I'm going to shut up and wallow in my own wasted math.
#6602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
I don't know about this 31 second cycle with shock/stormstrike colliding. For me its occuring damn near every time SS comes up. Teron is a good example of that since I can just stand in one place for 4-5 minutes (if not ghosted) and focus completely on hitting shocks and SS as soon as the cooldown expires, and every single time that SS is off CD I have a shock coming off at the same time.
#6603SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
Should clarify that as an orc there's no added benefit for using 2 axes, only 1 is required.
This is actually not true, even though the character screen says you gain 5 expertise when wielding one axe, doesn't mean it's also applied to your other non axe weapon. The character screen just can't display expertise per hand (yet).
#6604SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Malan: Well, research done from this post actually shows two interactions cycling every 31s; the actual interactions occur at 13s and 31s:

0s   FS (CD up at 6s)
1.5  SS (CD up at 11.5s)
6    ES (CD up at 12s)
11.5 SS (CD up at 12.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13   FS (off by 1s due to GCD, CD up at 19s)
19   ES (CD up at 25s)
21.5 SS (CD up at 31.5s)
25   FS (CD up at 31)
31   ES (GCD up at 32.5)
32.5 SS (off by 1s due to GCD, then continues as at 1.5s above)
This is using a method we could call "Prioritize whatever's first" (first a shock, then a strike) for a total loss of 1s per cycle per 31s.

If you were to prioritize strikes, you'd see a different cycle resulting in the loss of 2s of shocks per 20 (or 1 whole shock per minute):
0    SS (CD up at 10s)
1.5  FS (CD up at 7.5s)
7.5  ES (CD up at 13.5s)
10   SS (CD up at 22.5s, GCD up at 13s)
13.5 FS (CD up at 19.5s)
20   SS (CD up at 25s)
21.5 ES (off by 2s due to GCD, repeating as 1.5s above)

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 01/31/08 at 1:13 PM.
#6605SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Now try it with a 50ms lag on each end of button push + notification of something being ready, and lets say another 0.75-0.5 sec or so of realizing that something is ready to be pushed.

(Also did you mean to write ES twice in that 2nd example?)
#6606SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
[e] I would like to propose the following restructuring, which would also follow through to the ThinkTank wiki whenever Boe finally opens it.
I like.
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Actually, considering the low amount of hit rating many shamans pack, SS can actually be worth closer to 1/5 of your WF procs (based on a WWS from last Thursday, it was responsible for exactly 20% of mine).
...
the SS/Shock race condition that occurs naturally every 31s
Yeah, it would be expected that it's 1/5 of your WF procs if you have 2.6 speed weapons and about 75-80% Flurry uptime as well (rather than the 100% I assumed), even before accounting for misses.

I can understand the tendency to want to model everything, but this is (to me) one of those cases where it just doesn't work out. You're essentially dealing with the interaction of two different overlapping timers (SS and shocks), which is easy, but you've also got to take into account another overlapping timer (autoattack) that has a semi-random duration (due to Flurry gaining/fading) which randomly procs another three-second timer. Oh, and don't forget that if WF is on cooldown, that ten second SS timer extends until WF is off cooldown. The fact that there are so many decision points influenced by random variables makes it so that we're not really talking about a simple ten-second timer anymore, and I think the modeling falls flat on its face at this point.

Now, obviously, if WF is on cooldown and shock and SS are both up at the same time, hitting shock is the best idea (since we know that delaying SS for WF to be off cooldown is a DPS increase). However, if WF is not on cooldown, hitting SS is the best idea, because you are looking at more potential damage from that SS. I think we can probably all agree on this, and it makes the discussion (which ability to delay?) rather moot.
#6607SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Can I solicit someone to give me an initial/rough writeup that covers Flametongue + Frostbrand?

Oh and also maybe a "brief intro to enhancement" that would cover 'what we bring to the raid' and basically explaining how we're highly tied to gear choices, procs, etc.
#6608SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Kalamadea
So if it can't be modeled, what's the priority list for Max DPS?

I think from reading WF totem buff > all the rest of our abilities (correct me if I'm wrong).

However, should you drop WF totem but delay dropping GoA for a shock or SS? Or does GoA > personal DPS at that point?

If SS and Shocks are up at the same time and WF is off CD, which should I do first? Which plays into the next question..

If WF is locked out, and SS is up and shocks are going to be off CD at the same time WF is off CD, should I go ahead and SS then shock? Or delay the SS and the shock to get a SS/WF combo?

If I have a moonkin/ele shaman in the raid, should I SS then ES immediately to use my debuff, or FS and let him use up both charges? (I think I know the answer just don't want to give up my 20% dmg boost. >.< )

If I can't model it, at least I'd like to know which is most important to keep up the highest damage.

Edit: Changed an on to an off.

Last edited by Kalamadea : 01/31/08 at 2:33 PM.
#6609SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
Malan, did you want it to be an intro to enhancement for new shamans, for raid leaders or explaining the abilitites we possess? I've already started, but I think from a raid leaders perspective they just want a quick and dirty explanation, whereas new shamans might want more in depth stuff.
#6610SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Quick and dirty. More like a "so you are considering rolling/taking an enhance shaman ..." sort of thing, 5-10 lines. Literally just an intro for the wiki article.
#6611SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
So you’ve found some crazy internet fiend to play an enhancement shaman in your raid. Great, they provide passive AP/Crit buffs from totems and procs, as well as the sought after Windfury all the rogues cry over. They are a HIGHLY proc based class that possess very few active abilities. They can replenish their mana pools based on Attack Power however, which is why you will see a lot of enhancement shaman in leather gear, increasing their crit rate to improve proc rates and increasing their attack power to return more mana per attack as well as straight DPS increases. What you can expect from an enhancement shaman is WF totem (sword spec + AP on a higher proc rate), 90 agility, 100 Str, 10% AP bonus to their group when they crit and a melee class that can heal themselves in a pinch. They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game, are good at kiting single targets that can be snared and are highly versatile in group compositions.

How's That?
#6612SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
I agree with Sebudai completly. Theres no reason why you should shock before ss. Look at it this way...

SS has a 10 sec cd and does roughly 1000 damage non crit (500 for each hand)
1000/10=100dps

Flame shock does more damage so we'll use it.
It has a 6 sec cd with about 500 inital damage non crit
Then about 130 damage every 3 seconds for 12 seconds(4 ticks)
For a total of 1020 in 12 sec and 760 in 6 seconds.
760/6=126.777dps
1020/12=85dps

Sure the raw dps is greater, but now consider that SS can proc WF and that should be plenty of evidence that SS > Shocks.

In short, if you have your SS and shocks come off of cd at the same time, SS first.
#6613SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.
#6614SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Delita
are good at kiting single targets that can be snared
I actually ended up kiting a ROS blue ghost around the bloodboil trash area for about 2 minutes while my guild screwed around with loot. When I pulled aggro I thought I was toast, but I was able to sheild/SR/earth elemental and get far enough away to start the kite. It was the most fun I've had in BT in weeks, I hope blizzard implements something like that in future raid encounters (more of the tin-man, I guess).

As far as the twisting macro is concerned, I've stayed away from them. There are times when I get behind in the rotation due to lag/reaction speed/etc where it's easier just to skip 3.5s of GoA in order to get a quick heal/warstomp or some other situational thing. An important part of being an enh shaman is maintaining your personal DPS and situational abilities, totem twisting shouldn't interfere with either of these things.
#6615SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan
Oops. I blame that on the lack of foresight to split that wall of text into multiple posts to make editing easier.
After maintaining an enchant thread for both of the guilds I was previously in, I learnt the wonders of multi-posting things.
Layout looks nice, and I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.
#6616SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
I guess there will be a Vol 2 in the near future.
I like that idea.
#6617SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Delita
They are also one of the highest threat building classes in the game
Since 2.2 it's not really true, our physical dps (~85% of the total) has the same aggro as a rogue's one. There's always the risk of some big windfury proc right at the first strike, but holding back a few seconds is enough for the tank to generate enough threat.
#6618SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kalamadea
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Kala, if you're going to twist, use the WF->GoA->SS macro, and shock whenever you can inside that framework.

I think it's becoming obvious that trying to prioritize while twisting and watching the WF cooldown will only result in confusion, latency and probably ulcers.
Thanks for the advice, I'll just live with shocking when I can and try and find my own rhythm.
#6619SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob
Proposed change(s) to the main post -- comments?

Malan, there are two sections labeled "VIII.3" so you'll probably want to fix one to be labeled VIII.4. I'm not sure how much of a priority continuing to maintain this thread is with the TTT coming along, so I guess don't bend over backwards to fix that.

VIII.7.1 Itemization - MH Weapons

Optimizing enhancement shaman DPS requires running two slow weapons with Windfury Weapon on both weapons.

The best way to choose between multiple items in the same slot is to run Yo's simulator, once for each item, using the stats that you would have with that item equipped. Do not post asking which weapon is best: find out for yourself by running the sim. That said, here are some general guidelines.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.

Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating.

Arena Season 2 weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]), [Dragonstrike], [Wicked Edge of the Planes], [Netherbane], and [Talon of the Phoenix] round out the list of third-best choices.

Generally speaking, if you are an orc, you will want to choose axes for the +5 Expertise Bonus.

The differences in DPS within these "tiers" are relatively minor. Which weapon is best for you, or which weapon to mainhand and which weapon to offhand, can only be found by using the simulator with your stats, and no general conclusions can be drawn.

-----

The "OH weapons" section could probably use an update too. Maybe just a redesign for the way these sections are laid out. I also don't know the ZA weapons off the top of my head, so add them to the above if I'm missing something.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?
#6620SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Morelis
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but every time I use the sim to measure MH weapon performance [Talon of the Phoenix] beats out both Syphon and RT, also the revised Dragonstrike proc modeling still puts it slightly above the T6 weapons. If we're going to be so adamant about recommending the sim as a basis for gear selection shouldn't the recommendations match the output it gives us? Or are my results just completely out of line with what others are seeing?
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
#6621SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Daler
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
Sure, I just use my base armory stats with DS(since it doesn't add any passives) then add in the appropriate passive stats and adjust the DPS/speed for whatever I'm testing.

AP 1782
Crit 32.77%
Hit 22% (resto sub-spec currently)
Haste 2.35%
Armor pen. 126
Str 201
Agi 332

Buffs/Debuffs
Imp GOTW, FF
Imp Hunter's mark, Expose
Imp scorch
BoK, Imp SotC, Imp BoM
Misery
SoE, GoA, No SS
CoE, Malediction, CoR
Imp BS, Sapphire, SA, BF
Flask, No pots, Clefthoof

The results have been very consistent over several months with many gear changes.
#6622SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
#6623SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by poofypajamas
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
Because hit rating value is related to your crit rating and AP values. The more you increase crit/AP, the more valuable hit becomes.

edit: about the values, you can always consider using Yo!'s simulator and get your own personalised values
#6624SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.

Most of the official forum people for some reason cannot process this fact, though at least some of them get it half right, thinking that they flurry % would be equal between fast and slow weapons.

This was the first time I'd thought to actually verify the hypothesis with the sim, and it worked just spiffy.

That's all, just sharing some vindication/happiness on a topic I wish I had the ability to concretely address months ago.
#6625SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Disquette
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.
Um... isn't this blindingly obvious? WF is not normalized, so you get more WFs per white attack with slower weapons. This is the basis of "shams need slow weapons". Given this fundamental tenet, it's not exactly a stretch to say that the more WFs per white, the more chances to flurry. Or is there some other issue I'm missing that complicates this?
#6626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
You're not missing anything. And I too feel it's blindingly obvious, as you put it. However for some reason many people don't seem to grasp this (also note that it's not just WF, it's also SS). This was the first time I made the conscious effort to look at that effect in a sim though.
#6627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by poofypajamas
Ok well, I realize I'm probably overlooking something pretty major here, but why is it that hit rating is considerably more valuable at the T6 raid item value than at the T5 or T4? I looked through the post and did not see the answer anywhere and unfortunately, I don't have the patience to look through 250 or so pages of posts to find the answer lol.

I have 1466 AP, with 29.81% crit, and 413 armor penetration unbuffed. Which simulator should I be primarily using with those stats, tier 5?
Hit has a higher value because it isn't as prevalent on gear in T6. There are a few nuggets like Illidan hat/ring and Archimonde bp but otherwise hit on gear is lacking in large quantities. There are not different versions of the sim, those values were just constructed with T5 level gear to save some time/give people an idea of how values change as you progress. "Search this thread" > "blablabla impatient can't read", it sifts through the posts for you and generally yields a response seeing as there hasn't been any new relevant info concerning shamans in months.
#6628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vokzhen
Just something interested I noticed and thought might be worth pointing out is [Grand Marshal's Handaxe]. It's one of the better leveling items, and a number of shammies I know grabbed it before heading to Outlands.

When I run the sim with fairly typical early-raid-level buffs (druid buffs minus IFF, no hunter buffs, BoMight, misery, SoE, CoE with no talents, and Shout/Sunder), I'm getting nearly equal damage as with [Bloodskull Destroyer] and [Runic Hammer]. I tested it out with [fresh level 70] and [very well-geared Gruul/ZA] gear sets. In all the sims I ran the differences between the three items was pretty much negligible with the variance in the sims (ran 10 100-hour for each, since my computer didn't seem to like running longer sims).

Of course, with S1 weapons available with a solid weekend of honor grinding, I'm not sure it matters, but thought I'd point it out anywho.
#6629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Raut
Originally Posted by Disquette
This post is just a happy "how bout that" moment. Because of a misguided post on the Blizzard forums, I was reminded to run Yo!'s sim to prove something that I've claimed for many months:

slower weapons = higher % of attacks are flurried.

Most of the official forum people for some reason cannot process this fact, though at least some of them get it half right, thinking that they flurry % would be equal between fast and slow weapons.
Actually, you've lost me. (Incoming Doh! moment) I do not know of the details of the Flurry bug, so if it's related, I'm in the dark.

Flurry is a result of a crit. Flurry is consumed by an attack. There are no cooldowns, not on getting Flurry nor consuming it. How can slower weapons mean more crits(to fuel Flurry)? WF doesn't change your crit chance on attacks. Is it due to large chance of WF to reduce the chance to miss?
This was the first time I'd thought to actually verify the hypothesis with the sim, and it worked just spiffy.

That's all, just sharing some vindication/happiness on a topic I wish I had the ability to concretely address months ago.
Verifying with a sim is far from proof. It may show a trend, but that's it. Unless it's proving a statement is false?

I bet this pre-first-cup-of-coffee post is going to bite me in the ass.

Last edited by Raut : 02/01/08 at 4:50 AM. Reason: SPELNG R HRD
#6630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Low Life
Originally Posted by vokzhen
Just something interested I noticed and thought might be worth pointing out is [Grand Marshal's Handaxe]. It's one of the better leveling items, and a number of shammies I know grabbed it before heading to Outlands.

When I run the sim with fairly typical early-raid-level buffs (druid buffs minus IFF, no hunter buffs, BoMight, misery, SoE, CoE with no talents, and Shout/Sunder), I'm getting nearly equal damage as with [Bloodskull Destroyer] and [Runic Hammer]. I tested it out with [fresh level 70] and [very well-geared Gruul/ZA] gear sets. In all the sims I ran the differences between the three items was pretty much negligible with the variance in the sims (ran 10 100-hour for each, since my computer didn't seem to like running longer sims).

Of course, with S1 weapons available with a solid weekend of honor grinding, I'm not sure it matters, but thought I'd point it out anywho.
Well, with 2.9 speed those weapons are amazing - I didn't even consider changing them (two HWL Maces) to any weapons before I got to 70 and snatched two of the Gladiator axes. If I remember correctly my Windfury damage dropped a bit even after that change. I'd say they're really worth the honor it takes to get them - at least on my server I didn't need to wait for longer than 5-10 minutes to get into the lowbie Alterac and those battles are a lot more fun than the high level ones.
#6631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Raut
Actually, you've lost me. (Incoming Doh! moment) I do not know of the details of the Flurry bug, so if it's related, I'm in the dark.

Flurry is a result of a crit. Flurry is consumed by an attack. There are no cooldowns, not on getting Flurry nor consuming it. How can slower weapons mean more crits(to fuel Flurry)? WF doesn't change you crit chance on attacks. Is it due to large chance of WF to reduce the chance to miss?

Verifying with a sim is far from proof. It may show a trend, but that's it. Unless it's proving a statement is false?

I bet this pre-first-cup-of-coffee post is going to bit me in the ass.
Because a higher percentage of your hits that have a chance to crit come from abilities that do not CONSUME a flurry charge but can CREATE flurry charges (SS and WF) wherein with fast weapons a higher percentage of your hits cannot proc windfury and more attacks occur between SS, therefore the same crit rate will actually result in fewer overall flurry charges.

Does that make sense?
#6632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
Does that make sense?
I think it does. Well, here is my Doh! moment. I did not know a WF proc didn't consume a Flurry token.
#6633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Wraithlin
Is it strange that Yo's sim is telling me hit rating is now worth as much to me as agility ?
(Both were 1.38, crit was 1.43)
#6634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
As always, my recommendation is to do multiple sim runs at 10,000 hours and then average them before making any conclusions about the EP values. I've seen some pretty crazy outliers but given enough runs they eventually settle at a more reasonable point.
#6635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Raut
I think it does. Well, here is my Doh! moment. I did not know a WF proc didn't consume a Flurry token.
yah, the easiest way to get the concept, imo, is to imagine a weapon with a 10 sec timer compared to a weapon with a 1.0 swing timer, and interpolate.

On average with a 10 sec weapon, you have 1 + 1 + .64 = 2.64 attacks / 10 sec, only 1 of which can consume a flurry charge. (SS + Auto +Expected#ofWF = 2.64)

I'm not going to post the backup here, but with a 1.0 speed weapon, instead of having a 1:2.64 ratio, you have roughly 10:15 consuming to producing ratio.

That is
10 speed weapon ~ 38% of attacks can consume a charge
1.0 speed weapon ~ 67% of attacks can consume a charge
#6636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Actually, disquette if you want to write a slightly longer rationale for that I'll include it in a "why slow weapons are better" section.
#6637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
That doesn't negate the fact rogues can feint (LOL) and vanish to remove their threat, we have a battle anhk? Ret pallies are still the outlier on threat, but I'm always way up on our threat meter.

Malan, does that intro work for you or do you want some reworking?
#6638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Jamor
Originally Posted by Yo!
On top of doing more damage SS has chance to proc WF, flurry, on-hit trinkets etc...
Waiting for WF cooldown is not related to the perfect-rotation graph that was being discussed.
If you want to factor that methodic in - SS and shock won't overlap during WF cooldown in the first place because you are waiting with SS so the choice is limited to shock.
If you have to make a choice outside WF cooldown - SS is better.
What "same holds here" is here?
There is no point in upkeeping 24 shocks per 2 min by delaying SSs.
Although I agree with prioritizing SS over a shock, one thing that was overlooked in this is that a shock can also proc (and will very often) proc the Stonebreaker's for an extra 110 AP.
#6639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
The 3 second cooldown on WF also makes slower weapons better concerning flurry. The reason for this is the ratio between hits that consume flurry charges to those that do not. Faster your weapon, the more hits that will consume flurry while the 3 sec cooldown causes WF (which does not consume flurry) hits to grow a lot slower. 2.6->1.3 weapon would doube white hits, but while number of WF's probably will grow it would be a lot less than 2x growth due to lot of new white hits would be inside 3 second rule.

Is that sufficient?
#6640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Hello beloved Enhance Shamans,

I'm a warrior. Since our Flurry works the same way I would like to hear your opinion, because it would be helpful for me. Your thread has ten times more views .
I claim that "Flurry is an aura, that you gain after a crit and loose after three autoattacks". It is refreshable.
Relevant posts http://elitistjerks.com/621396-post518.html and http://elitistjerks.com/621618-post522.html
Can anyone confirm or disprove this? I'm pretty sure I'm right.
#6641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kadah
Many apologies if this has been asked before, I read these fourms often and try not to post intill I have some valid reason, anyway on to the question. Has anyone seen a breakdown for Syphon versus ISB and the direct damage breakdown? I have just recieved the first non ninja'd syphon in my guild and have put my warlocks into a bit of an uproar. I have searched for any direct corelation for it versus shadow damage and the direct results of the loss of damage and if there is a topic it isnt one I have found. Does one exsist and can anyone help me find it?

Thank you for your time with this.
Kadah Earthen Ring
#6642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aett
Originally Posted by Kadah
Many apologies if this has been asked before, I read these fourms often and try not to post intill I have some valid reason, anyway on to the question. Has anyone seen a breakdown for Syphon versus ISB and the direct damage breakdown? I have just recieved the first non ninja'd syphon in my guild and have put my warlocks into a bit of an uproar. I have searched for any direct corelation for it versus shadow damage and the direct results of the loss of damage and if there is a topic it isnt one I have found. Does one exsist and can anyone help me find it?

Thank you for your time with this.
Kadah Earthen Ring
Don't sign and use the search feature before asking questions.

A quick search with the feature in the upper right of the screen called "Search this Thread" for "Syphon Shadowbolt" got me what I think you're looking for:
Originally Posted by Illundai
Syphon of the Nathrezim does not consume Improved Shadow Bolt charges. I tested this a while back.
#6643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shalas
Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3
I claim that "Flurry is an aura, that you gain after a crit and loose after three autoattacks". It is refreshable.
How is that different from what the tooltip says other than not losing charges on misses/etc. (which seems incredibly easy to test)?
#6644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Shalas
How is that different from what the tooltip says other than not losing charges on misses/etc. (which seems incredibly easy to test)?
Same speed weapons always hitting together for example, effectively providing 4 charges.
Instantcrits making Flurry less efficient.
#6645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Same speed weapons don't provide 4 charges on their own per se (that's what I find the data implies). Weapons that hit within a fraction of a second of each other, regardless of their paperdoll weapon speed, seem to get extra flurry charges. In that respect, flurry does seem to work like an aura.

However, with the search function (I actually like google's a lot better than the one in EJ.com), you can find a whole thread about this topic. I haven't done any testing or theorizing for months, so feel free to expand the data set if you'd like.

[Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?

Maybe I'll actually load WoW again and test some more, now that I have a different internet connection (and possibly a more stable ping).
#6646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
Error in writing -- Should be Vengeful not Merciless.

Current best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]).

Thanks.
#6647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Corrected, no idea how that got left in.
#6648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Atren
The 3 second cooldown on WF also makes slower weapons better concerning flurry. The reason for this is the ratio between hits that consume flurry charges to those that do not. Faster your weapon, the more hits that will consume flurry while the 3 sec cooldown causes WF (which does not consume flurry) hits to grow a lot slower. 2.6->1.3 weapon would doube white hits, but while number of WF's probably will grow it would be a lot less than 2x growth due to lot of new white hits would be inside 3 second rule.

Is that sufficient?
It's getting there, but it should include stormstrike also, as that's 2 more attacks per 10 sec that can proc but not consume flurry.

Another reason that slower weapons do higher dps, ceteris paribus, than faster weapons is the effect that weapon speed has on the ratio of yellow attacks to white attacks. Both yellow and white crits can proc/refresh flurry, but only white attacks consume them. It stands to reason (and can be seen in sims) that because slower weapons have a higher ratio of yellow to white attacks than fast weapons, there will be a higher % of flurry granting to flurry consuming attacks, and thus a higher flurry uptime ratio.

The reason that slower weapons have a higher yellow to white attack ratio comes from 2 primary sources. First, with the three second cooldown on windfury, with a faster weapon more white attacks will be happening within the window when windfury (a yellow attack) cannot happen. Secondly, Stormstrike will happen 10 seconds regardless of weaponspeed. It is fairly obvious that the ratio of Stormstrikes to white attacks increases as weaponspeed increases.

I'd do something like the above quote. But, I'm very longwinded, admittedly, and something simpler can probably convey the same amount of information in fewer words (perhaps altering Atren's attempt just a little to include Stormstrike)
#6649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette
However, with the search function (I actually like google's a lot better than the one in EJ.com), you can find a whole thread about this topic. I haven't done any testing or theorizing for months, so feel free to expand the data set if you'd like.

[Melee Combat] How does Flurry Work?
I've read the whole thread before I even started testing. My results are just different from what the guys in the thread got.
They think that Flurry acts like a buff for a whole swing.
#6650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Daler
That is certainly an odd result. Could you give the full list of inputs your using with Yo's sim to get those?
It's not that strange.

Talon vs Syphon:
-3.7 DPS
-6 HitR
+19 Crit
+ 6 AP

T5 values:
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -8.4 EP
+19 Crit ~ +38 EP
+ 6 AP
-41.8 + 44 = 2.2 EP, Talon better at T5 gear level

T6 values
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -10.14 EP
+19 Crit ~ 33.06
+ 6 AP ~
- 43.54 +39.06 = -4.48, Syphon better at T6 gear level

So, surprsingly, the Talon is better when you get it. And the Syphon is better when you get it.
#6651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.
#6652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
It's not that strange.

Talon vs Syphon:
-3.7 DPS
-6 HitR
+19 Crit
+ 6 AP

T5 values:
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -8.4 EP
+19 Crit ~ +38 EP
+ 6 AP
-41.8 + 44 = 2.2 EP, Talon better at T5 gear level

T6 values
-3.7 DPS ~ -33.4 EP
-6 HitR ~ -10.14 EP
+19 Crit ~ 33.06
+ 6 AP ~
- 43.54 +39.06 = -4.48, Syphon better at T6 gear level

So, surprsingly, the Talon is better when you get it. And the Syphon is better when you get it.
So why does the Talon beat Syphon at my gear level?(T6) I'd be really curious to see if someone can post their stats where Syphon ever comes out on top in the sim. Also the stat differences you list in your post are wrong.
#6653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Time to stock up on [Enscribed Fire Opal] and [Shifting Tanzanite].

EFO > Inscribed Noble Topaz already. EFO > BLR if your value for crit is greater than 1.65.

(Given their awful drop percentage, and also how annoying Mana Tombs is, I doubt I'll be stacking either one).
#6654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Malan
Well it looks like patch 2.4 is going to make heroic gem drops non-unique, so we may need to re-evaluate which gems are 'best in socket'.
The oddball str/agi Coilfang gem will be best for blue sockets(though it already was), don't think anything else would change.
#6655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.
#6656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Well, the EP weights that have the Talon lose are in the OP -- they're Sebudai's.

And yeah, I goofed -- I was comparing the Rising Tide to the talon, not the Syphon.
Ok, but those stats corrected would show it not losing, which is right. I'm just trying to figure out why something that performs better in the sim(which we base everything off) and more people have access to is being passed off as second class. The stats you listed aren't quite right for RT either and also neglect to take weapon speed into account, which is a significant factor.
#6657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
2H haste

Would the DPS be viable for a 2H during with a large amount of haste?
I'm looking to get a torch of the damned. 3.8 atk spd (with 50 haste). If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion the atk speed would be close to 1.75 (plus flurry) dont know exact numbers. with the highest top end in the game and that attack speed would it be viable dps while the haste buffs are up? It also seems that when i have all of my haste buffs and add dragonstrike 212 haste to that for my DW, the speed wastes a lot of white hits while wfcd is up.
#6658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by vaynous
If I pop bloodlust, drums of battle and haste potion
So you're asking if you'd be viable for 30 seconds every 10 minutes?
#6659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
ya 30 seconds every 10 min
#6660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I mean, you realize how ludicrous that is right?
#6661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
i use all of those items anyway. its either better or worse. what is your opinion?
#6662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
btw im DW when this isnt going on btw. just incase u think im using a 2H the whole time
#6663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
plus flurry and UR would be up when i switch from DW and i have all of my haste buffs
#6664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette
Hm. You stated you saw this, but I couldn't find the data points. Can I have the combat logs? I'd love to add new data, especially with your consistent low ping, to the thread.
First, a good place to test this are the mobs in the Blasted Lands. Go all out for a while, then let someone taunt. You run ooc. Now you have alle the time you want to attack from behind .

2.6speed, MH 100dps, OH 5dps, 4m:15s runtime, ~50ms (at night I get <30ms )
It's so synced, the hits even swap places sometimes. Two instances, where the hits were 0,4s apart (at 5403+5408). I blame lag. Some mongoose proc were in there too.
5319,465	You	hit	183
5319,767	You	crit	1156
5321,726	You	hit	183
5321,967	You	crit	977
5323,830	You	hit	183
5324,052	You	miss	0
5325,917	You	crit	378
5326,178	You	hit	534
5328,379	You	miss	0
5328,700	You	hit	550
5331,018	You	crit	376
5331,396	You	crit	974
5333,240	You	hit	183
5333,551	You	hit	556
5335,410	You	hit	183
5335,642	You	hit	499
5337,869	You	crit	377
5338,230	You	hit	560
5340,058	You	hit	183
5340,357	You	hit	472
5342,407	You	crit	378
5342,797	You	hit	497
5344,686	You	hit	182
5344,921	You	crit	924
5347,100	You	hit	183
5347,475	You	hit	563
5349,705	You	hit	183
5350,087	You	miss	0
5352,335	You	miss	0
5352,716	You	crit	1029
5354,717	You	hit	183
5354,955	You	crit	1010
5356,786	You	miss	0
5357,138	You	crit	1088
5358,862	You	crit	377
5359,245	You	hit	539
5400,969	You	hit	183
5401,298	You	hit	500
5403,271	You	crit	377
5403,706	You	hit	525
5405,464	You	miss	0
5405,810	You	hit	472
5407,857	You	crit	378
5408,320	You	hit	441
5410,072	You	hit	183
5410,437	You	crit	1125
5412,468	You	hit	183
5412,841	You	crit	989
5414,700	You	hit	183
5415,000	You	hit	468
5416,860	You	crit	377
5417,084	You	hit	443
5419,365	You	hit	183
5419,660	You	crit	938
5421,816	You	hit	183
5421,929	You	hit	547
5423,888	You	hit	183
5424,019	You	hit	471
5426,280	You	miss	0
5426,452	You	crit	976
5428,629	You	crit	377
5428,663	You	hit	547
5430,702	You	hit	183
5430,751	You	hit	542
5433,135	You	miss	0
5433,184	You	hit	518
5435,728	You	hit	184
5435,822	You	hit	472
5438,338	You	hit	183
5438,418	You	hit	489
5440,942	You	hit	183
5441,130	You	hit	521
5443,646	You	hit	183
5443,710	You	hit	543
5446,189	You	hit	183
5446,221	You	hit	474
5448,836	You	miss	0
5448,852	You	miss	0
5451,381	You	hit	468
5451,413	You	miss	0
5454,042	You	miss	0
5454,076	You	hit	533
5456,585	You	crit	1097
5456,618	You	miss	0
5458,670	You	hit	183
5458,702	You	crit	1053
5500,758	You	miss	0
5500,791	You	crit	1015
5502,842	You	hit	183
5502,876	You	hit	459
5504,924	You	crit	377
5504,957	You	hit	553
5507,438	You	crit	1126
5507,472	You	crit	377
5509,720	You	hit	530
5509,738	You	hit	182
5511,791	You	miss	0
5511,825	You	hit	183
5514,333	You	crit	993
5514,351	You	crit	377
5516,628	You	hit	183
5516,661	You	miss	0
5518,701	You	crit	376
5518,735	You	hit	478
5521,121	You	hit	182
5521,153	You	crit	1142
5523,271	You	hit	183
5523,305	You	hit	543
5525,423	You	crit	377
5525,457	You	hit	453
5527,894	You	crit	1162
5527,927	You	hit	183
5530,042	You	hit	184
5530,060	You	crit	915
5532,637	You	crit	378
5532,655	You	crit	1122
5534,877	You	hit	184
5534,895	You	hit	493
5536,961	You	hit	183
5536,980	You	crit	1010
5539,113	You	hit	183
5539,147	You	crit	1006
5541,197	You	crit	377
5541,215	You	crit	1127
5543,273	You	hit	183
5543,292	You	hit	476
5545,358	You	miss	0
5545,377	You	crit	376
5547,477	You	crit	378
5547,494	You	hit	555
5549,557	You	crit	376
5549,575	You	crit	939
5551,638	You	hit	183
5551,659	You	crit	996
5553,719	You	hit	184
5553,738	You	crit	935
5555,801	You	hit	183
5555,819	You	crit	966
5557,945	You	hit	183
5557,962	You	miss	0
5600,018	You	hit	501
5600,052	You	hit	183
5602,535	You	crit	1005
5602,568	You	hit	183
5604,773	You	crit	378
5604,792	You	crit	1061
5606,856	You	hit	183
5606,874	You	hit	504
5608,922	You	crit	985
5608,955	You	crit	378
5611,006	You	crit	971
5611,040	You	hit	183
5613,100	You	crit	377
5613,119	You	hit	532
5615,232	You	miss	0
5615,253	You	crit	1034
5617,671	You	crit	1112
5617,704	You	crit	376
5619,866	You	crit	990
5619,885	You	crit	378
5621,901	You	hit	183
5621,934	You	hit	516
5623,941	You	crit	378
5623,976	You	crit	997
5626,033	You	hit	182
5626,066	You	crit	988
5628,075	You	crit	377
5628,108	You	hit	527
5630,121	You	hit	183
5630,155	You	hit	474
5632,624	You	crit	1042
5632,641	You	miss	0
5634,701	You	hit	183
5634,767	You	hit	477
5636,827	You	hit	444
5636,827	You	crit	377
5638,840	You	crit	1130
5638,859	You	hit	184
5640,871	You	crit	961
5640,904	You	hit	184
5642,990	You	miss	0
5642,990	You	crit	378
5645,403	You	hit	183
5645,403	You	crit	1083
5647,578	You	hit	183
5647,595	You	crit	1009
5649,606	You	hit	184
5649,640	You	crit	999
5651,643	You	miss	0
5651,685	You	hit	465
5653,733	You	crit	1111
5653,752	You	crit	377
5655,849	You	hit	182
5655,882	You	hit	503
5657,929	You	hit	447
5657,961	You	miss	0
5700,366	You	hit	472
5700,399	You	crit	377
5702,614	You	hit	535
5702,632	You	crit	376
5704,697	You	hit	543
5704,761	You	hit	182
5706,820	You	hit	554
5706,854	You	hit	183
5709,463	You	hit	503
5709,463	You	hit	183
5712,101	You	hit	464
5712,135	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	183
5714,756	You	hit	447
5717,321	You	miss	0
5717,338	You	crit	946
5719,554	You	hit	183
5719,573	You	hit	559
5721,668	You	hit	182
5721,701	You	crit	1138
5723,768	You	hit	183
5723,786	You	hit	553
5725,831	You	crit	378
5725,867	You	hit	530
5728,268	You	hit	184
5728,301	You	miss	0
5730,924	You	hit	183
5730,926	You	crit	1047
5733,118	You	hit	183
5733,151	You	crit	971
5735,198	You	hit	183
5735,231	You	crit	1080
Link to Log (Excel)

Last edited by dr_AllCOM3 : 02/01/08 at 4:21 PM.
#6665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Thanks much for the link. Downloading the Office 2k7 compatability pack now to open the xlsx file.
#6666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Oh, I forgot about Excel2007. I changed the link to 2003/97.
#6667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
It's no prob, I needed to install the converter anyway. Get with the times, all that stuff ;-)

So, I opened it, and I guess the part that makes it difficult for me is that I can't see the flurry or mongoose or other procs. I'm sure you did a fine job in taking those into account, but with the raw data missing, I have trouble reconciling what you're seeing with what I saw in that other thread.

If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
#6668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette
If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
Uh, look at the bottom. The original is there too.
#6669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
My question above was not thorough enough.

I am DW for the encounter and for a short period of time, i.e. when flurry and UR are proc'ed and when i have used a haste potion 400 haste (10 second duration), Drums of Battle 80 haste and Bloodlust is it viable to switch to a 2H weapon such as Torch of the Damned 3.8 atkspd with 50 haste rating. Considering that with Dragonstrike proc adding an additional 212 haste rating, that would result in too many white hits. Basically is the 2H fast enough with the haste buffs? Or do the added white hits still outweigh the possible dps of the 2H with the increased speed? (I understand that this is a very short amount of time, I'm bored and I was just curious).
#6670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
I too am confused on your theorycrafting about the torch of the damned if fully hasted out the wazoo.....

On the front end it looks like you're just high. So let's look at some math and see what we get.

General assumptions: you kick it new-school with either S3 weapons or Torch of the Damned.
You have enough haste with Torch to hit 1.75s speed (for 30seconds, you've got double length haste pots and a horseshoe up your ass, whatever it takes).
Your S3 weapons instead of 2.6 would be 2.6/1.4(bloodlust)/1.25(flurry-it's permanent due to that horseshoe for luck)/**whatever haste -50 **

Near as I can tell, Your torch set of gear would have to be 378haste.
3.8/1.4/1.25/1.2411 = 1.75
24.107% haste *15.68ish = 378ish haste

Your S3 weapons are rolling in 50 haste slower or...
2.6/1.4/1.25/1.2092 = 1.23

Supposedly you instantly switch weapons to the Torch of the Damned as you cast lust + all that other hulabaloo... but I'm going to go ahead and say that you lose 1.75seconds + 1.23seconds of attacks out of a 31.23 second due to weapon swaps upsetting your swing timer. Perhaps I'm totally wrong on this count and you don't really lose these times. But I'm going to go ahead and assume that the swing timer resets.
Naturally the S3 weapons lose no time, since you would not be switching them around for that scenario.

TORCH OF THE DAMNED:
You get 17 hits, first one at 1.75 seconds, last one at 29.75seconds.
You get 3 stormstrikes (5% miss rate, out of your 20hits, i'm taking 1 away)
You get 4 windfuries, sorry buddy, but at 20% chance and only 20ish possible hits, 4 is your max.

S3 -VENGEFUL WEAPONS OF FAR TOO GOOD FOR PVE:
You'd get 25MH hits, 25OH hits, first two at 0.615seconds, last one at 30.135. I did the first hit at halfway through a hasted swing cycle, since you didn't switch weapons and the last hit is that free hit that not switching weapons gives you.
You get 3 stormstrikes (i'm going to say you miss 15%, so instead of 28MH, 28OH, it's 24 each)
You get 6 windfuries (roughly 48 chances at 20% is 9.6 WFs, There must be collision due to 3.0seconds so I took away 3 and truncated just to be brutal, we'll make 3MH, 3OH for simplicity)

Let's assume that there's no additional procs going on... no double mongoose of the executed dragonspine tsunamis.
You've got 3000 AP
Torch average hit = 496.5+814, 1310.5. average WF = 623APbonus so 1479.6
S3 average hit = 268+557, 825MH 412.5OH. average WF = 940.7MH, 528.2OH (the WF's AP is not halved for OH hits, as far as I remember)

TORCH TOTAL= 19*1310.5+8*1479.6 = 36717
S3 VENGEFUL TOTAL = 24MH*825+24OH*412.5+6MH*940.7+6OH*528.2=38519

Sorry, but that's 2000 damage in 30seconds... roughly speaking it's 5% more damage to stay dual wield. with my goofy assumptions.

shoot someone caught me while i was editting in some miss chances... i added in some miss chances to make it slightly more realistic. (as if 100% flurry was realistitc)

Last edited by Rapparee : 02/01/08 at 5:53 PM.
#6671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Isn't this all based on the idea that the 2H would hit on every attack as well? You have to factor in that you're losing 6% hit because you aren't dual wielding any more. Wouldn't one miss pretty much ruin the potential DPS benefit?
#6672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vaynous
Thank you kind sir.

Although I am not high, I would much rather be high than be on speed and PCP which is very obvious you are.
#6673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
I'm confused as to where this is going. Dual wielding does more damage than using a two-handed weapon regardless of the amount of haste you have. I don't see how haste somehow scales better with a two-handed weapon than it would while dual wielding.

Maybe I'm dumb. Please explain.
#6674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.
#6675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
#6676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Definetly worth getting 2x [Shifting Tanzanite] for the RED now, one for your Midnight chest and 1 for the Bow-Stitched legs
#6677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Krom[Fenris]
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.

Last edited by Krom[Fenris] : 02/01/08 at 8:32 PM.
#6678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sancho
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
Probably not needed, but [Sundered Chrysoprase] is not a bad 2nd choice to other options for a blue gem slot. You miss out on stamina while gaining your AEP, but it still gives you 5crit, and fills a blue slot.
At my current EP values, 5 crit is about equal to 4 str, and I'd much rather have the stam than the mp5. I don't think its worth noting.
#6679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Krom[Fenris]
Alright. I've been reading this thread for awhile and I'll be the first to admit that a lot of it goes over my head. I'm not as dedicated as a lot of you, and math is far from my strong suit. But I pick up useful information here and there that I can grasp. I've always been a bit wary about using Yo!'s simulator, but I finally took the plunge. A few questions:

- The option for Band of the Eternal Champion is greyed out for me. Is this just an incomplete feature?

- I use Pawn, not Enhancer. I assume I should take the EP values Yo!'s spits out after it's done and enter them into Pawn.

- I was shocked by some of my EP values. Using the baseline Atk 1 value, it has Crit 2.01 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.8 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.2 / Agi 1.96 / Expertise 3.38. Some of those were surprising. I was surprised Hit and Haste were valued so high.
Yes.
Yes.
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.
#6680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3CeNo65
2.8 vs 2.6

i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats
#6681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by CeNo65
i entered some basic numbers into yo's

i only changed atk,crit,haste, weapon speed and weapon dps.
1800 atk
36% crit
8% haste

100dps 2.8speed weapons x2 =1410

100dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1385
101dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1388
102dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1391
103dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1394
104dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1398
105dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1402
106dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1405
107dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1409
108dps 2.6speed weapons x2=1413

103dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1403
104dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1407
105dps 2.6speed / 100dps 2.8speed = 1410

Then the same inputs but with much lower crit (30%)
108dps 2.6speed = 1343
103dps 2.6speed = 1326
100dps 2.8speed = 1338

This test doesn't take into effect the weapon stats etc.



Basically I'm seeing that two Syphons are best until you have two 2.6 speed weapons with 108dps, or a 105dps 2.6 speed MH and a 100dps 2.8speed OH



I know its different for every ones values but i just stuck with top leather and full t6 stats
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
#6682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by rava
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
15.02% hit
1800 ap
33.15% crit
301 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
2.35% haste
16.04% hit
1768 ap
35.05% crit
399 armor ignore
6 expertise

@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
#6683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Paradox
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
#6684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
I wouldn't call S3 axes welfare weapons, since you need 1850 rating to get them.. If it was S1 sure, but it isn't. Hopefully Sunwell will add some new fun weapons to play with.
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
#6685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
'lo,

our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings,
We had a semi-decent try at it this week (but got unlucky with who got ghosts, so DPS dropped significantly ) and I was wondering after reviewing our WWS about trinket choice.

Khaelyn - WWS

This is the WWS. I had 3 Tsunami Talisman procs with Fury of the Crashing Waves and 4 DST Procs (-2 Haste buffs from Haste Potions).

The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.
#6686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Paradox
So what you're saying is, welfare epic weapons > any currently obtainable PvE weapon, for.. PvE?
That wasn't the intent, but I thought it was a given. I had my weapons in the first few days and it was hell, something that I am definitely not looking forward to whenever S4 hits. The system is amazing imo, not being limited by boss drops or weapon selection is just fantastic. If only they'd move bosses to a pure token system so the 3984892th zhardoom and 834292th cursed vision aren't de'd while we're sitting on 2 skulls, 3 rings, and a single offhand glaive after nearing 7 months of farm. /rant

Anyways, back on topic! The comparisons were to show the silly man that ignoring stat gains on weapons is retarded and leaving out xyz variable will give improper results.
#6687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Paradox
Well, for 1,000 gold on my server you can 'pay' people to boost you in 3v3, it takes a single evening... and you get 1850 rating and better than BT weapons. Sounds welfare to me.
With a decent team with the right matrix(war/pal/sham, druid/x/sham) 1850 is really easy. But finding a team already at 1900~2k, and playing 30ish games(winning most) will get you 1850 in a few hours; it's what I ended up doing.
#6688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Illundai
'lo,
The question I was wondering is PERSONAL experience with trinkets on such occasions, I know I could kinda model it with the sim, but that's not really what I'm looking for. As far as I know, the sim can't take into account fight length and that's the biggest factor here - how will I do the most DPS for a short period of time. The question arose to me when I realised I could use [Berserker's Call] twice, not to mention one of the would be up during a Heroism too, probably signifcantly spiking my burst DPS. I was wondering if any of you have already had this dilemma when trying such crazy things as to make fights a DPS fest.
I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
As such I thought I'd ask if there were others before me that have experimented.
I use a BC for that exact reason, so i can pop it when i use other cooldowns like haste pots, heroism, drums etc. Personally stacking buffs like that give me really good results, which is why I doubt i'll bother getting a MoTB/TT. The next trinket I'll get will be the sunwell one with expertise and on hit AP inc (If those loots do actually turn out to be true).
#6689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Question for twisters concerning the overlapping shock cd/wf reapplication.

I've been trying a different rotation to see a DPS improvement(SS, WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES, WF, GoA, FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES, so on) and I had one of the rogues yell at me that WF fell off their weapon. I went back to the 3 button deal but it made me wonder if the 1 second of WF uptime was more dps than a shock. So here's the math I did, tried to explain everything as best as I could.

Rogue DPS gain from WF:
Looking over a WWS, keep in mind this is without kings/battle shout/blood frenzy/flask/food so number is higher, but this is the only reliable info that I have.

max hit = 906(number is actually lower, but this is the closest thing to an actual WF hit I can get)
21% glance = 65%
6% dodge = 0%
36% crit = 200%
5% miss = 0%
32% normal = 100%

100 hits

21*906*.65 = 12366.9
+36*906*2 = 65232
+32*906 = 28992

= 106590.8(total)/100(# of swings) = 1065.9 damage per swing average

1065.9*.2(WF proc chance) = 213.18 dps(wing)

2.6speed mainhand/1.35(snd with 2 piece t6) = 1.92 so you are outside of <1.5 window where 2 swings could occur during the global

213.18*2(# of rogues) = 426.36

Warrior DPS gain from WF:
Have to go back a ways so numbers may not be entirely accurate here, our warrior has been busy with school/job so he hasn't been raiding. This is without flask/food.

max hit = 1590
29% glance = 65%
2% dodge = 0%
38% crit = 200%
8% miss = 0%
23% normal = 100%

100 hits

29*1590*.65 = 29971.5
+38*1590*2 = 120840
+23*1590 = 36570

= 187381.5(total)/100(# of swings) = 1873.81 damage per swing average

1873.81*.2(WF proc chance) = 374.76 dps(wing)

3.5 speed weapon/1.15(33/28 spec, 3/5 flurry) = 3.04 speed, well outside of the window

using 15d/4c+fs/2 = 15(1873.81)/4(274.7) + 3.5*3.5/2 = 31.77 rage, going to go with a single extra heroic strike, I'm pretty sure 2+ would delay the auto slam ms auto slam ww thing

1623 average hit hs
38% crit
5% dodge
57% normal = 2158.59 average damage, which changes 1873.81*.2 to (1873.81+2158.59)2, or 806.48dps(wing), but this is where I get tripped up. There's a >50% chance that missing the global on WF won't have any bearing on the warriors DPS, so do I halve this number?

If so I'm looking at 403.24 for a warrior, bringing the total of 2 rogues + 1 warrior to 829.6 dps from WF. This does not take Sword spec into account because I am entirely too lazy to try and figure out the math on that and obviously the rogue DPS would be a bit higher with a sensible group. If I were to ballpark the DPS gain from 829 to 1000(170, 85 dps per rogue) with blood frenzy and shout would that be sensible? Even then I'm seeing shocking as a better alternative to WF for that global as my average ES hovers around 1300 and FS around 825/267 ticks.
#6690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai
our guild has been beginning to try to push DPS on fights such as Teron to see how well we can do on the WWS rankings

I'm thinking [Berserker's Call] will provide me with more DPS than [Tsunami Talisman] but it's just a gut feeling.
Definitely, you're looking to push that fight down to 2-3 minutes so you'll want to shed trinkets that have a long internal cooldown.
#6691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well, the reason I was wondering is that I had more Tsunami procs than I would have BC activations. I was doubting - maybe the stats of TT would outweigh BC's extra AP I'd get.
#6692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Hi all, didn't see this discussed in here (and maybe it shouldn't be, but we'll get to that later). However, it's certainly something that I feel would be worth some intense theorycrafting. I also chose to ask in this forum instead of the elemental forum because of everyone's familiarity with enhance gear.

I also think that this is probably not a viable option for raiding, but I've been curious ever since the mental quickness change.

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

I became curious about this from hearing some elemental shamans that I know (who do very good dps) complain about the difficulty in breaking 1000 spell damage, and my own experience as enhance still having over 700 spell damage buffed in pre-T5 gear.

With all of the buffs to AP that can be applied to a shaman, is it possible to break 3333 AP?

Barring that, what would the dps be of a person in melee range, with melee weapons, using WF and auto attack (prolly it would be MH + caster dps off-hand OR a 2H weapon) who was spamming LB?

How much DPS would they need to achieve from auto-attacks in order to make up for the lost dps from not speccing fully into elemental? How much DPS would they need from their lightning bolts in order to make up for not speccing fully into enhance?

Would it be possible to make a character with this spec viable for raiding? (I expect this to be a no, but I'm still very curious)

Seems to me that the gear would need to be max STR and AP, have just enough hit to break the yellow damage hit cap (5% I think), and the play style would have to allow for melee and caster dps at the same time (assuming an auto attack in between every lightning bolt or every other lightning bolt, depending on weapon speed).

Obviously, you can get more +spell damage from wearing all caster gear, but then your melee attacks would hit for nothing (and most casters don't melee ever anyway). The point of this spec would be to have melee still be a significant portion of the dps of the character (LB would still take the lion's share though - I imagine). Likewise, you could gear and spec for full enhance, but then you'd be enhance and not melemental. There, I've created a good name for the spec, too.

Additionally, and I think this would probably be the biggest factor killing the spec: Would it be possible to sustain dps without completely running out of mana? Would threat be an issue without spirit weapons (and having to fight in melee range)?

I'm thinking that if you can do 2/3 of the damage of an ele shaman with full enhance gear on, that your melee auto-attacks with WF would easily make up the additional 1/3. But I haven't tried the spec and I don't really have the full STR + AP gear that would allow me to maximize a melemental spec.

Anyway, have fun with this one.
#6693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Unaz
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
Anyway, have fun with this one.
You either won't have the AP to sustain the spell damage, or won't have the mana to sustain the lightning bolts. And if you're meleeing in between while waiting on mana, your melee will run dry with that few points in Enhance.

You also won't have Totem of Wrath, or Unleashed Rage. Which are major reasons for having a shaman in your group.

Edit: Or weapon mastery, or DW unless you meant 28/33 instead of 33/28

Last edited by Unaz : 02/02/08 at 2:24 PM.
#6694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
# of procs themselves is great, but you also need to consider buff duration. BC is 20s, Tsunami is 10s, so now you'd need at least 3 TT procs to give about an equal amount of AP/s as well as modelling the other stats the items give. Assuming the items both 'go off' at exactly their CD end AND right @ 0:00 you can model an ideal situation (with everything else being equal) and if you want, take a sample and create a % proc coefficient for TT (BS would be 100% since its an on use trinket). No you're never going to get 2 boss attempts ever to have all things being equal to start building a statistical database, so all the theorycraft goes out the window and we come round to it being totally chance based and reliant on TT going off ASAP.

EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.
#6695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shabadu
Originally Posted by Kahdrick

Has anyone examined a 33/28/0 spec where the player would gear to max AP and then auto-attack while throwing lightning bolts?

Anyway, have fun with this one.
This makes next to no sense, because the second you start any spell with a cast time, you reset your swing timer, absolutely killing your autoattack dps. Only instants for paladins and shamans do not interrupt the swing timer. There's no way you could make up the lost dps for a 2 sec lb cast in 2sec of autoattack swing vs elemental, nor could you make up 2 sec of autoattack as full enhance with a 2.5 sec cast lb.
#6696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Nor would you have the mana pool or regen to sustain it.
#6697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ frmorrison
Originally Posted by Delita
EDIT: LOL, Casting any spell with a cast duration resets your wswing timer, GL with chain casting LBs with AA on.
Also if you cast a spell made instant (via 2 Tier 5 or Nature's Swiftness) that is not normally instant, it also resets the swing timer.
#6698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Felt like messing with Google Spreadsheets and I made a spreadsheet template for using Yo's simulator that does the averages for you and formats an enhancer string with the averaged values. I think the permissions are set so you can copy it and use the template for yourself.

Google Docs - AEP Averager
#6699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Malan
Run it for longer and more times and then take an average.
Alright, thanks. I ran it 6 times at 10,000 hours each and came up with the following:

AP 1 / Crit 1.91 / Hit 1.76 / Haste 1.91 / Armor Pen 0.31 / Str 2.20 / Agi 1.85 / Expertise 3.40

I'm going to guess 6 runs of it is enough but I could be wrong. Currently my haste is valued the same as crit, very interesting.
#6700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by rava
So basically you ignored all stat gains on the items and compared speed/dps. That would work if items had no stats, but they do.

2x syphons stats with buffs/debuffs:
@7700ac=1627, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200ac=1785, 1787, 1788, 1786

2x vengeful stats with same buffs/debuffs:
@7700 ac =1630, 1628, 1629, 1628
@6200 ac=1808, 1808, 1808, 1809

On higher AC mobs/phase 1 souls you'll see similar results between syphons and vengeful, get into lower ac mobs(Teron, Anetheron, others I don't remember) and the numbers swing more in vengeful's favor. Toss in the 2 armor ignore items that I am lacking and the margin grows further. Statistics are fun because you can make anything look better than what they actually are.
You left out the syphon shadow damage, which is somewhere between 0 and 5DPS per syphon (my average is 3.5ish). Which tips the favor to Syphon for high AC mobs. But like you said, as soon as one tacks in another item or two with more AC reduction it swings even more in the favor of the vengeful weapons.
#6701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Shabadu
This makes next to no sense, because the second you start any spell with a cast time, you reset your swing timer, absolutely killing your autoattack dps. Only instants for paladins and shamans do not interrupt the swing timer. There's no way you could make up the lost dps for a 2 sec lb cast in 2sec of autoattack swing vs elemental, nor could you make up 2 sec of autoattack as full enhance with a 2.5 sec cast lb.
Ahh, I forgot about swing timer. I guess if you had a speed 2.0 weapon you'd be sure to auto-attack at the end of every cast... Anyway, the responses are pretty much what I expected, thanks for indulging me.
#6702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Added page with the best possible set that sim suggests at current itemization available. Plan to update it as soon as 2.4 loot will be known for sure.
#6703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I'm trying to figure out how the heck I went from around 30% unbuffed crit on the paperdoll to only 26%. Did anyone else have a drop in crit rate like that as they started grabbing T6 gear?
#6704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bargle
My crit is going up...it's my hit that's suffering.
#6705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bdatik
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm trying to figure out how the heck I went from around 30% unbuffed crit on the paperdoll to only 26%. Did anyone else have a drop in crit rate like that as they started grabbing T6 gear?
My crit took a huge hit after i collected my haste gear. Went from like 30% to 26%, roughly the same as yourself. Taking a look at your armory, its the same 3 pieces of gear that i have that caused the drop (gloves, belt and ring).
#6706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3david0925
Originally Posted by Yo!
Added page with the best possible set that sim suggests at current itemization available. Plan to update it as soon as 2.4 loot will be known for sure.
Thanks for the update Yo on that, hopefully that finalizes the question about "HAI GUYZ WHICH IS BETTER"

However, I am wondering if Dragonstrike ranks higher with the presence of a Dragonspine Trophy (due to haste), we'll see what happens.

Edit: since this is the best possible "Gear Set" (which i didn't read, GG), Dragonstrike is probably still third
#6707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Bdatik
My crit took a huge hit after i collected my haste gear. Went from like 30% to 26%, roughly the same as yourself. Taking a look at your armory, its the same 3 pieces of gear that i have that caused the drop (gloves, belt and ring).
Hah, ok then. Since those are reasonably going to be replaced I won't worry about it. I keep looking over my gear wondering if I'd left off an enchant or had a Shadow Resist item on.
#6708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Bdatik
Originally Posted by Malan
Hah, ok then. Since those are reasonably going to be replaced I won't worry about it. I keep looking over my gear wondering if I'd left off an enchant or had a Shadow Resist item on.
I went through that same response when looking over my gear wondering what i was doing wrong. Luckily, I almost always have a feral in my group as the 5th person so the loss wasn't that huge of a deal.

Once we upgrade to [Boneweave Girdle] and [Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring], we should be back to where we were previously, but just a little shy of 30% with BoK.

Last edited by Bdatik : 02/03/08 at 10:46 PM.
#6709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Bargle
My crit is going up...it's my hit that's suffering.
This is how my gearing process has been going.

But basically, you would expect your crit, hit, and AP to drop slightly as you gain access to items with haste and armor penetration, since those items will be better but not *so much better* that your overall stats go up even as you add extra stats. From memory, I've dropped from 120 hit to about 90 hit but grabbed about 600 armor penetration and 1% crit.
#6710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by rava
I went back to the 3 button deal but it made me wonder if the 1 second of WF uptime was more dps than a shock.
Careful.

The question you have is whether losing 1s of WF is worth pushing back shocks by 1.5s. The immediate cost of this is 1/4 the cost of a single shock.
#6711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
Anyone know why my DPS crashes quite badly when i use 2 x syphons over rising tide/syphon?

Stats with rising/syphon - 1612 AP/27.36%crit/193 Hit
Stats with 2 x syphon - 1618/27.36%crit/172 hit

Yo!'s parses me higher with syphons and from what people saying, they also parse higher but my DPS really takes a hard drop. I struggle to keep flurry up and drop to the lower half of the DPS meter. Re-equip axe and i go back into the top 5. Baffled at why this is. Its not just on 1 fight, its happening alot and im bloody confused!
#6712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Did you maybe neglect to enchant/imbue one of your weapons before you switched?

This is the only reason I can think of that RT or Syphon would have a significant advantage over the other. Losing 1.33% hit is bad but shouldn't break you, since you have more than 100.

Also, if you're an orc, obviously the orc racial is worth a tremendous amount.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/04/08 at 1:37 PM.
#6713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.

Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is.
#6714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
Increasing Health

So I think I've done a pretty good job of obtaining among the best gear for each slot outside of heroics and raids (meaning from quests, regular instances, and an occasional crafted item). I've been using EP to build up as much DPS as possible. All but one of my gear is leather as I was advised in this thread that for instances/raids the favorable DPS stats from most of the leather (over mail) gear is much more important than extra armor (which if you manage threat and don't get hit too much shouldn't be much of a factor).

I'm now transitioning into Heroics and soon KZ. My GM suggested that I increase my health (which has dropped to under 6k unbuffed as I've been focusing on DPS over all else). I definitely see the need for increased health as certain AoE could wipe me out easily. I'm looking for some general direction regarding this issue (and confirmation that increasing health is important) and any specific recommendations that might be warranted.

Here is my current gear and thanks for your time:

[Helm of the Claw]
[Natasha's Choker]
[Blackened Leather Spaulders]
[Cloak of the Inciter]
[Chestguard of the Dark Stalker]
[Felstalker Bracers]
[Gloves of the Unbound]
[Rune-Engraved Belt]
[Shattrath Leggings]
[The Master's Treads]
[Ravenclaw Band]
[Overseer's Signet]
[Figurine - Felsteel Boar]
[Figurine - Nightseye Panther]
[Fist of Reckoning] x 2
[Totem of the Void]
#6715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Its almoust impossible notice any gear uprgrade or downgrade with only pure gut feeling. Check did you miss any buffs or debuffs those affects much more than any gear upgrades you can get. Buffs are easy to check but debuffs is little harder to see accurately. Imp. hunter mark 110ap or imp. JoC +3% crit is impossible to check for sure. Expose weakness uptime(>250ap) how you can measure it. Or maybe you have just very bad luck.
#6716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
It could be that you're getting more offhand WF procs using the dual syphons.

I'd say run recount/wws with both weapon configs up to be sure.
#6717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Amagnus
I'm now transitioning into Heroics and soon KZ. My GM suggested that I increase my health (which has dropped to under 6k unbuffed as I've been focusing on DPS over all else).
I raided Kara with less than 6k for a long time; in fact, I'd put the comfort spot at around 6500. Anything more than that is just a buffer for your healers. The only fight I had trouble with in Karazhan was Maiden; the others, a little more wouldn't make much of a difference. Sorcerous shades (the trash mobs that do AoE burst damage) are a pain but you just pop SR before you engage them and you should have no trouble.

A Flask of the Titans is an extra 400 health with no new gear needed; that combined with some stam food should carry you into Kara where you'll see a lot of upgrades with +stam. You can also take the piece of gear with the least EP on it and put some high stamina green in there, until you get your health up to spec.

But if you really want to get your best bang for buck, do Battlegrounds and get some Vindicator's gear. A few weeks running AV and you should have 1-2k more health. Or if you don't like PvP, you could find a leatherworker to make you some of the epic craftables that are better than anything you'll find in Karazhan anyway: such as [Shadowprowler's Chestguard] or [Cloak of Darkness]. A combination of the two would be ideal; the Vindicator's Ring and Pendant are better than anything you'll find in Kara.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/04/08 at 5:28 PM.
#6718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Khaul
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.

Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is.
Standard would be more like Mongoose/Mongoose?
#6719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
It doesn't matter what the 'standard' is, he's seeing a drop in-game while the sim with the same stats shows an improvement.

Khaul you're going to need to provide some WWS parses in order for anyone to help out.
#6720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Khaul
Dreani and didnt forget to enchant. Standard mongoose/exe combo.

Its werid, i dont know why the drop is that big. If it was only a slight drop, i would just put it down to a bad raid, more shock resists then normal etc. For a drop that big, im not sure what it is.
But did you forget WF imbue? That would be huge drop :P
#6721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
I'll get some parses when we do some melee friendly mobs with the new raid week. Najentus for example
#6722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Blizz itemization for us has been so poor (mana per 5 sec..., bad stats distribution ), that best pure DPS set (suggested by sim) contains only rogue leather items with one hunter piece (legs).

Assuming that Sunwell loot has iLevel =159 for set pieces (T4 = 120, T5=133, T6 = 146), iLevel = 154 for non-set items, iLevel = 164 for loot from end-bosses, using Item Level formula from wowwiki (very accurate), using EP values from sim from the best set available, assuming that there will be 7 stats on chest piece (as it is now on pvp chest), further assuming that only non-set pieces can contain no stam/int, it is possible to theorycraft chest armor that will be scored highest with abovementioned EP values (Math behind this is not hard but in order to verify the results one has to run discrete optimization algorithm anyway, so take it by word):

Elitist Jerkin
Binds when picked up
Chest Mail
1078 Armor
+20 Strength
+15 Agility
Durability 140 / 140
Requires Level 70
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14.
Equip: Improves haste rating by 17.
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 15.
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 51.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 696 of your opponent's armor.
"Yo!"
iLevel = 154
626 EP (Midnight is scored twice less)

Another theorycrafted piece of gear possible within iLevel = 154 that you can find interesting:
Dark Naaru Paradox
Binds when picked up
Chest Mail
1100 Armor
Requires Level 70
Equip: Your attacks ignore 1100 of your opponent's armor.

Last edited by Yo! : 02/05/08 at 9:51 AM. Reason: Recalculated stats because ap and str can not be found on one piece. Replaced ap with hit.
#6723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
It's stated that you will never see a str and AP item unless you get some silly <random> item. (Hardly the point though)

One of the basics is also that if you buff one stat far above the norm, it becomes more and more expensive in the item budget. Like "Ring of Pure Stamina" will not have the same point-by-point value of a three stat ring. (Can't find the source on wowwiki)
#6724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Originally Posted by Raut

One of the basics is also that if you buff one stat far above the norm, it becomes more and more expensive in the item budget.
This is accounted for, did not know about ap/str deal though (guessed it is like agi/crit rating) --> edited stats above.
Formulas:Item values - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Last edited by Yo! : 02/05/08 at 9:54 AM.
#6725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Amagnus
So I think I've done a pretty good job of obtaining among the best gear for each slot outside of heroics and raids (meaning from quests, regular instances, and an occasional crafted item). I've been using EP to build up as much DPS as possible. All but one of my gear is leather as I was advised in this thread that for instances/raids the favorable DPS stats from most of the leather (over mail) gear is much more important than extra armor (which if you manage threat and don't get hit too much shouldn't be much of a factor).
Overall, the kinds of gear you're collecting is right - but that's not unexpected if you're using EP and calculating what's an upgrade and what just looks shiny. However, your weapon choice, while excellent in the low- to mid-60s, could use a little work. Don't be afraid to use greens if they're better. Keep an eye out on the Auction House for 68-70 2.6 speed greens "of the Bandit" or "of the Soldier", or honestly basically anything. The 68-70 greens are (if I remember correctly) 62-64 DPS, as opposed to the 54 on your Fists.

Admittedly, you're probably going to be picking up a good main hand from Arc or Shattered Halls, and a good off-hand from heroic UB or Crypts (*shudder*), but don't be afraid to use greens in the meantime. I MH'd a [Dragonmaw] with an [Amani Tomahawk] of the something-or-other for a couple weeks while I was grinding arena points for my [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
#6726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Amagnus
So I think I've done a pretty good job of obtaining among the best gear for each slot outside of heroics and raids (meaning from quests, regular instances, and an occasional crafted item). I've been using EP to build up as much DPS as possible. All but one of my gear is leather as I was advised in this thread that for instances/raids the favorable DPS stats from most of the leather (over mail) gear is much more important than extra armor (which if you manage threat and don't get hit too much shouldn't be much of a factor).
Overall, the kinds of gear you're collecting is right - but that's not unexpected if you're using EP and calculating what's an upgrade and what just looks shiny. However, your weapon choice, while excellent in the low- to mid-60s, could use a little work. Don't be afraid to use greens if they're better. Keep an eye out on the Auction House for 68-70 2.6 speed greens "of the Bandit" or "of the Soldier", or honestly basically anything. The 68-70 greens are (if I remember correctly) 62-64 DPS, as opposed to the 54 on your Fists.

Admittedly, you're probably going to be picking up a good main hand from Arc or Shattered Halls, and a good off-hand from heroic UB or Crypts (*shudder*), but don't be afraid to use greens in the meantime. I MH'd a [Dragonmaw] with an [Amani Tomahawk] of the something-or-other for a couple weeks while I was grinding arena points for my [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler].
#6727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
So, we all know our T6 is less than optimal. However, I am now in the position where I am upgrading my 4 piece Tier 5 and generally other T5 items into random T6 non set items, and I am noticing a disturbing trend. My stamina is going down.

For all their faults, the tier sets have a lot of stamina. Here are a few of my recent upgrades:

T5 helm (46 stamina) -> Forest Prowler's Helm (29 Stamina)
Netherbane (21 Stamina ) -> Syphon (0 stamina)
Vindicator necklace (35 stamina) -> Choker of Endless Nightmares (0 stamina)
Dory's Embrace (34 Stamina) -> Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape (24 Stamina)


Looking ahead at my potential replacements I see Bow stitched leggings as best in slot (28 stamina vs. 58 on my T5 pants) and I'm getting worried. My HP are already the lowest among all the melee and many bosses deal a lot of unavoidable or hard to avoid AoE damage.

Do you guys worry about this at all?
#6728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
If you have 10k health while buffed, you have enough HP to survive every fight in BT.
#6729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Psibeast
So, we all know our T6 is less than optimal. However, I am now in the position where I am upgrading my 4 piece Tier 5 and generally other T5 items into random T6 non set items, and I am noticing a disturbing trend. My stamina is going down.

For all their faults, the tier sets have a lot of stamina. Here are a few of my recent upgrades:

T5 helm (46 stamina) -> Forest Prowler's Helm (29 Stamina)
Netherbane (21 Stamina ) -> Syphon (0 stamina)
Vindicator necklace (35 stamina) -> Choker of Endless Nightmares (0 stamina)
Dory's Embrace (34 Stamina) -> Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape (24 Stamina)


Looking ahead at my potential replacements I see Bow stitched leggings as best in slot (28 stamina vs. 58 on my T5 pants) and I'm getting worried. My HP are already the lowest among all the melee and many bosses deal a lot of unavoidable or hard to avoid AoE damage.

Do you guys worry about this at all?
Offset items have a lot less stamina than set stuff for sure, but the jewelry comes close to making up for it. Serrated Blades has a huge chunk of hp, around 15 more than it's T5 equivalent. Band of Devastation(I think these are the best outside of Illidan/Gurtogg/Exalted Hyjal/Chest) have ridiculous stam and you can sport two of them. You can also try to get some people together and take a run at 1850(most easily done as ele; purge purge purge purge purge purge, lb, lb, nsemcl, interrupt mana burns, bleh bleh bleh)the weapons have 30 stam each on them.

I don't really like wearing the 0 stam items even if the amount of HP that I have is borderline unnecessary, but it's fun being able to take hits from supremus while he's in kite phase(with a shield on of course).
#6730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
I agree with Rava.

Though for your particular guild the amount of stamina you need is directly related to you and your healers.

Can you run out of Rage's death and decay without taking a single tick? if yes; great, you can get away with less stamina.
Does the first heal after getting frostbolted by Rage take 5seconds to get to you? if yes; you're screwed you need 13k buffed hit points if you want to live.

I think only the Illidari Council drops almost 10k damage randomly on people. Very often, they land two spells on individuals that do almost 5k each.
#6731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Warstehgnome
Sorry to derail the current thought, but I have read over the last few pages and haven't seen anything on this topic. 270 pages is a lot to dig through. So, are the badge rewards with the armor ignore worth it?

Doesn't seem like that is covered in the opening post at all. Minus their EP values.
#6732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3spanko
All need to know about whether an item is "worth it" or not is its EP value. So yes, it is covered. Calculate how much EP the item is, if its higher than you have, and there isn't a better item you can get in the very near future, then yes it is "worth it".
#6733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
To take it a step further -- according to my EP values (in T4, ZA and badge gear, 133 armor pen and Exec), the badge rewards with Armor Pen, aside from the [Vestments of Hibernation], are worse than other badge rewards with no Armor Pen on them.

This is because the gear with Armor Pen is mostly mail, and it all has a good deal of its item budget spent on Intellect.

Armor Pen is great. Int still sucks. Get the leather badge rewards instead (except maybe [Gauntlets of Sniping], which due to those sockets compare pretty favorably).

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/05/08 at 6:20 PM.
#6734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rapparee
I think only the Illidari Council drops almost 10k damage randomly on people. Very often, they land two spells on individuals that do almost 5k each.
If you raid with slow healers, your best bet is to learn when they're going to be slow (due to running, AoE, big burst on the tank, etc) and heal yourself (pot, HS, etc).

If three spells of 5k will take you out, then it will take another 5k health to bump it up to four. By the time you've found 500 stamina, you've basically gimped your dps, and you'll be very safe, sitting back at the Inn in Shatt.
#6735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Warstehgnome
Thanks Toots(had to say that).

I'll break out the calculator today and wail em out.
#6736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Disquette
It's no prob, I needed to install the converter anyway. Get with the times, all that stuff ;-)

So, I opened it, and I guess the part that makes it difficult for me is that I can't see the flurry or mongoose or other procs. I'm sure you did a fine job in taking those into account, but with the raw data missing, I have trouble reconciling what you're seeing with what I saw in that other thread.

If there's anyway you'd be willing to do another blasted lands test and post the full combat log (the txt file, only trimming any data before or after the test) before parsing (and letting us know if you wore any haste gear), I'd be extremely grateful. I know those tests kind of suck though, so I completely understand if you decline.
Did you take a look into it?
#6737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vim
I looked through the last 4 pages of the 11 about expertise, and couldnt find an answer as to what the weight is to OH expertise (for orcs and axes). Is it the full weight, or only 50%? I ask this since OH damage increase from expertise is only 50%, unlike MH expertise. Am I mistaken in my assumption, or is this correct?

EDIT: I have an axe OH and MH. From what I understand, orc expetise applies to each weapon depending on if its an axe or not.
#6738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
Originally Posted by Vim
EDIT: I have an axe OH and MH. From what I understand, orc expetise applies to each weapon depending on if its an axe or not.
This was brought up before and it is a display limitation by the Blizz UI. You only get the expertise on any axe you wield. If you have one axe and one mace, only the axe get's the bonus.
#6739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vim
Originally Posted by frozndevl
This was brought up before and it is a display limitation by the Blizz UI. You only get the expertise on any axe you wield. If you have one axe and one mace, only the axe get's the bonus.
I understand that if I have an axe in my MH, it wont apply to a mace in my OH. What Im asking is if the stat weight for expertise is the same for MH and OH for Orcs and axes.
#6740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
weapons

Originally Posted by Yo!
Added page with the best possible set that sim suggests at current itemization available. Plan to update it as soon as 2.4 loot will be known for sure.
So talon/syphon DPS is = syphon/syphon DPS in these simulations?

I, for one, find that interesting.
#6741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
What's 'talon'? The TK weapon?
#6742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Vim
I looked through the last 4 pages of the 11 about expertise, and couldnt find an answer as to what the weight is to OH expertise (for orcs and axes). Is it the full weight, or only 50%? I ask this since OH damage increase from expertise is only 50%, unlike MH expertise. Am I mistaken in my assumption, or is this correct?

EDIT: I have an axe OH and MH. From what I understand, orc expetise applies to each weapon depending on if its an axe or not.
Uhh, I'm trying to figure out why you need to know a weight for "OH expertise", since any expertise on items will affect both your MH and your OH. But I'll suppose you are considering switching from a lower-DPS axe to a higher-DPS mace, or something like that. In that case, 2/3 of the value of expertise comes from its effect on your MH, and 1/3 of the value of expertise comes from its effect on your OH. The EP value of 5 expertise on the OH would thus be 5*3.95*(expertise rating EP)*1/3.
#6743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by rava
Band of Devastation(I think these are the best outside of Illidan/Gurtogg/Exalted Hyjal/Chest)
[Band of the Ranger-General] is also better with almost any set of EP values; [Ring of Lethality] , [Ring of a Thousand Marks], and [Ring of Reciprocity] are generally comparable DPS but with less stam; [Ring of Deceitful Intent] has about the same stam and DPS.
I don't really like wearing the 0 stam items even if the amount of HP that I have is borderline unnecessary
I agree and I tend to switch out any 0-stamina items for stamina-intensive fights such as Naj'entus or Supremus.

And the advice to grab [Choker of Serrated Blades] is good as well, next time it drops I'm taking it, because even though it's only a ~6 EP upgrade it's also another 15 STA.
#6744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
Originally Posted by Malan
If you have 10k health while buffed, you have enough HP to survive every fight in BT.
I have around 10,300 HP buffed after the recent upgrades when I was already hanging around 11k most of the time when I was mosly in Tier 5. The problem is not what I can theoretically survive, it's my survival statistics. The lower my HPs are, the more often statistically I die. Dead shammies do no damage, so that's why I was asking ppl on this thread what their experiences were when they started upgrading to T6 and if their stamina stats dropped as well, and if they made trade-offs using lower EP items just for the stamina.
#6745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Kalince
Originally Posted by Psibeast
I have around 10,300 HP buffed after the recent upgrades when I was already hanging around 11k most of the time when I was mosly in Tier 5. The problem is not what I can theoretically survive, it's my survival statistics. The lower my HPs are, the more often statistically I die. Dead shammies do no damage, so that's why I was asking ppl on this thread what their experiences were when they started upgrading to T6 and if their stamina stats dropped as well, and if they made trade-offs using lower EP items just for the stamina.
I have always just gone for the greatest DPS items. The fact that you get reincarnation and shamanistic rage means you can cheat quite a bit on your stamina. The only fight I think 10k hp buffed could be a detriment on is Naj'entus as if you die to slow spike removal you can't really be safe getting up without getting rebuffed.
#6746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Chaotic.XD
Hello.

I was wondering does anyone know the exact agility to crit formula, cause i've been trying the 25 / 1% crit and taking ingame actual numbers and making ratios and still failing at getting exact numbers in the end. I'm trying to input all my wishlist gear into excell to try to see what my stats in the end will be and what would i want/could change.

Cheers.

Last edited by Chaotic.XD : 02/06/08 at 7:00 AM. Reason: Typoes.
#6747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas
Stamina isnt such a problem... In stamina sensitive fights, grab yourself Vengeful Legs or Chestpiece loaded with 12/15 stamina gems + enchants... That should give you at least 800 hp increase, which should be enough to survive. Also, correct timing of SRage and the fact that you dont need mana pots leaves you with 30% dmg reduction for 30 sec, healing pot and mana pot cooldowns ready.

I managed to do full Hyjal run + 2 bosses in Black Temple and only died once on Azgalor and his f..kin' doom after which i ankhed up. Ended up as 2nd on damage meters. Only things i did was switch [Bow-stitched Leggings] for [Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Leggings] from time to time, where damage spikes could ruin my rotations ;-)
#6748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas
Spell Haste: Spell haste now reduces the global cooldown on spells, down to a minimum of 1 second. This change does not apply to melee and ranged abilities.


Has anyone done any simulator calculations with the new changes to haste?

Since spell haste will reduce global cooldown, and global cooldowns mess up your SS/shock rotation (the ugly moment when the cooldowns are ready at teh same time or really close to it due to lag) - it should mean a slight increase in dps... Nothing too fancy, I'm aware of that, but I'm interested in some simulation numbers and such...

It should also mean that haste EP will be a bit more valuable, would be really interesting to see how it reflects item AEP...
#6749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3gorsameth
As stated by blues only spell haste will affect gcd. and i do not think any shaman here would be even considering staking himself in spell haste to reduce gcd when it gimps you very very hard in every dps stat that matters.
#6750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Chaotic.XD
Hello.

I was wondering does anyone know the exact agility to crit formula, cause i've been trying the 25 / 1% crit and taking ingame actual numbers and making ratios and still failing at getting exact numbers in the end. I'm trying to input all my wishlist gear into excell to try to see what my stats in the end will be and what would i want/could change.

Cheers.
Base agility does not affect crit at the normal rate (no base stat gives standard bonuses). Only agility you add on works at 25/1.
#6751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas
Originally Posted by gorsameth
As stated by blues only spell haste will affect gcd. and i do not think any shaman here would be even considering staking himself in spell haste to reduce gcd when it gimps you very very hard in every dps stat that matters.
Meh, mistook it for haste and read as if it was giving reduced gcd on spells, not melee abilities. Forget it. Back to -armor and expertise stacking for me
#6752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chaotic.XD
Yes i know that base agi is different, 61, and gives 4.11 crit. I'm trying to calculate the bonus one and still coming up with 1% extra crit or so.
#6753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Is the tooltip saying you have ~1% more crit than you're calculating you should have, or 1% less? Does your calculation include Kings and you don't have it when you're checking your tooltip? Also, check your crit rating to crit% calculation and make sure it's exactly 22.08 rating per percent.

I haven't actually checked mine to see if I can reproduce the exact crit% displayed by the tooltip. Maybe I'll check when I get home.
#6754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
[Drums of Battle] gives also spellhaste and I think bloodlust could lower GCD after 2.4 too. These effect would be very minor but better than nothing.
#6755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
The only reason the change to the GCD would matter would be if you were shocking or dropping a totem prior to using a stormstrike, but if stormstrike was that close to coming off CD in the first place, you probably should have held off on any other actions to wait for it.

I suppose that it could allow you to refresh totems slightly faster while hasted though.
#6756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chaotic.XD
Thanks Rhaegal, I left the crit ratio that i calculated by the ingame numbers, and with the 22.08 works fine, Also an extra field had agi in it where it shouldnt have been messing the calculation up.

Cheers.
#6757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Faster gcd also yield better uptime for grace of air when twisting. 10s - gcd / 10s = 85%max but after 2.4 it could be 90% when bloodlust + drums are up.
#6758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Complete restructure of the OP is complete. Its in wiki format from the (unleased) wiki forum right now, I'll change it around to have bolded headings, etc in a little bit. Added some new stuff to it as well.

Need some input on what to write up for Flametongue/Frostbrand and Stormstrike. ie, whats useful to put there, any calculations that should be shown, etc.
#6759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Malan
Complete restructure of the OP is complete. Its in wiki format from the (unleased) wiki forum right now, I'll change it around to have bolded headings, etc in a little bit. Added some new stuff to it as well.
Nice work, looks good.

However I was reading it over and spotted a mistake you have made:

Rule 4 - If there is no Warrior, but 2 or more Combat Sword Rogues are in the group, they will benefit slightly more from Windfury-energy feedback than from Grace of Air.
This is not correct, rogue MH attacks do not provide any addtional energy gains, thus WF procs do not either. They are a plain white attack.

Thought this needed correcting because it could lead to a serious misconception of the "benefit" WF is to rogues.
#6760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Mox
This is not correct, rogue MH attacks do not provide any addtional energy gains, thus WF procs do not either. They are a plain white attack.

Thought this needed correcting because it could lead to a serious misconception of the "benefit" WF is to rogues.
Oops yah that should have been noted as opportunities for additional sword spec procs.
#6761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Eland
Given heroic gems will no longer be unique at patch it might be worth adding them to the gem section in the OP.

Enscribed Fire Opal - Items - World of Warcraft and Shifting Tanzanite - Items - World of Warcraft seem the best to me. The blue matching one can be particularly handy for hitting a socket bonus for good boost on some items.
#6762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
OK, so I was kind of intrigued by the fact that Yo's "best" list included a [Talon of the Phoenix] as the "second-best" weapon after S3. I did a bit of comparison using the weapon EP values we derived a while back, and I think he's probably right. Using those "weapon EP" number's, here are the two lists I got, all the way down to S1 weapons as a "baseline/any idiot can get these". Do note that this analysis does not take into account the differences between a 2.6 and a 2.8 weapon, but I can't be arsed to run every possible weapon through the sim. I did cheat a little bit and since I knew Dragonstrike/Dragonmaw were better than the axes for non-orcs, bumped them up (since I didn't do the math on the haste proc), and since I knew that Syphon was basically the same DPS as Rising Tide, I bumped it up (since I didn't do the math on the shadow proc). The weapons are listed in order from highest DPS to lowest DPS, and when there was a lower than ~5 EP difference I listed the weapons on the same line:

Main Hand:
S3 Weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver])
[Talon of the Phoenix]
[Rising Tide] / [Syphon of the Nathrezim]
[Dragonstrike] / [Wicked Edge of the Planes] (orcs)
S2 Weapons (e.g. [Merciless Gladiator's Cleaver]
[Netherbane] / [Rod of the Sun King]
[Rage]
[Dragonmaw] / [Black Planar Edge] (orcs)
S1 Weapons (e.g. [Gladiator's Cleaver])

Off Hand:
S3 Weapons
Rising Tide / Syphon of the Nathrezim
S2 Weapons / Netherbane
[Fury]
Rod of the Sun King / Fool’s Bane
S1 Weapons

Makes me wish I had a Talon of the Phoenix, just since it looks so cool and actually is great DPS

Last edited by Rob : 02/06/08 at 2:51 PM.
#6763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
http://elitistjerks.com/539182-post4574.html
http://elitistjerks.com/621082-post6619.html

Can I sneak in an "I told you so"?

In related news the revised proc modeling of [Dragonstrike] looks to be a bit conservative and even in that state it has a small advantage over Syphon/RT/Talon. So it's reasonable to suggest it is the best choice of non-S3 weapons.
#6764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis
Absolutely! Sorry that I've missed those posts in the past. This thread moves so quickly and while sometimes I can kind of stay on top of it, there are other times where I can't check in for 5 days and I'm bound to miss something.
In related news the revised proc modeling of [Dragonstrike] looks to be a bit conservative and even in that state it has a small advantage over Syphon/RT/Talon. So it's reasonable to suggest it is the best choice of non-S3 weapons.
OK. Then it would probably make sense to put the T3 BS weapons, the BT weapons, and Talon on the same level. In that case, the list looks pretty similar to what's in the main post right now but with just the Talon moved up as you have suggested already. Your posts suggest to me that maybe you've gone through and ran all the MH weapons against each other with your own stats -- is that the case? If so, care to reproduce the list for us? I know that this all might seem a bit unnecessary, but it seems to me that having a list of weapons for the main post (like a list of trinkets) is useful due to the complexity of many of the procs, weapon speed interactions, and the relative difficulty of summing weapon DPS EP and item EP, if for no other reason than to reduce the number of "what weapon is best?" questions. (Though those have been reduced in days past, so maybe the main post is already doing enough on this front.)

Last edited by Rob : 02/06/08 at 4:27 PM.
#6765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
I've tried asking this question on the PvP Shaman thread, but didn't see a for sure answer. I'm hoping for a solid 'it works this way' answer.

I'm trying to get clarification on the Purge mechanic when attempting to use it on either a NPC or PC.

When you cast Purge, it can dispell two enemy buffs. Is each chance to dispell rolled seperately? IE, If I'm attempting to purge a mob or a enemy in PvP, can I cast Purge, have one buff resist the purge, and the other buff be cleared? Or does a resist on one buff resist the purge to both buffs?

I know I've looked through a lot to try and find this but if I missed it I'm sorry. Thanks!
#6766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
I'm fairly certain that Purge is all-or-nothing. It's not the buffs that are resisting the spell, it's the player/NPC, and the target should only have one chance to roll a resist.
#6767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rob
Your posts suggest to me that maybe you've gone through and ran all the MH weapons against each other with your own stats -- is that the case? If so, care to reproduce the list for us?
I run through all the weapons I have access to(I don't pvp) whenever my gear changes a bunch or the sim gets a significant update, unfortunately I haven't recorded the results. The last time(2 more items from an ideal set) it came out DS>Talon>Syphon>RT all separated by a handful of DPS.

I think estimates based on the EP of the items are OK for the most part but not taking into account weapon speed seems to be a problem since it has a significant impact in the sim. As an example setting it up with Syphon/Syphon stats then dropping the MH from 2.8 to 2.6 results in a ~20DPS loss.
#6768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Vissi
I was going over the OP to read through the changes made. The link to Disquette's findings on 36% chance for wf to proc while DW is dead

Last edited by Vissi : 02/06/08 at 7:21 PM.
#6769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Experiment
When you cast Purge, it can dispell two enemy buffs. Is each chance to dispell rolled seperately? IE, If I'm attempting to purge a mob or a enemy in PvP, can I cast Purge, have one buff resist the purge, and the other buff be cleared? Or does a resist on one buff resist the purge to both buffs?
This is actually a reasonably easy to recreate scenario.
Grab a priest/druid/mage/pally, whoever can cast 2 or more buffs on themself.
Take off as much of your spell hit as you can.
Hopefully your buddy has the talents (if available) for XX% resistance to having buffs dispelled.
Challenge them to a duel.
They should have at least two purgeable buffs on themselves.
Purge them
Count how many were removed (or use an addon that announces for you).


That said, I've finally broken down and done some BGs on my shaman, I have seen several single buff removal purges while the target in question had a great many buffs still on them. I've seen at least as many times when I purge nothing. This is all adhoc information though. I don't have a screen cap of me purging some priest and only getting his shadow prot buff, but leaving fort/spirit/innerfire.

Last edited by Rapparee : 02/06/08 at 7:45 PM.
#6770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Heh, I never bothered to look back after getting Dragonstrike over Talon, it's a bit odd Talon is so good. I refuse to use it though, Draenei look retarded when they use Fists!

That being said, I finally broke down and got working on getting double S3 weapons. It's not a huge upgrade over what I'm using, but I like to min/max. Oh and for those that answered my question regarding Berserker's Call and Teron speedkills, I tried it out tonight. I messed up and didn't use it quick enough, though - so I only got about 10 second of my second use. I also messed up my shock rotation a little, so that kinda sucked. I also had a Feral this time, which I didn't have last time.

Here's the WWS if anyone is interested, ended up doing 2360 DPS.

WWS Loading...
#6771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Vissi
I was going over the OP to read through the changes made. The link to Disquette's findings on 36% chance for wf to proc while DW is dead
I guess the forum archive purged it. I'll have to reword that section now.
#6772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
how

Originally Posted by Illundai
Heh, I never bothered to look back after getting Dragonstrike over Talon, it's a bit odd Talon is so good. I refuse to use it though, Draenei look retarded when they use Fists!

That being said, I finally broke down and got working on getting double S3 weapons. It's not a huge upgrade over what I'm using, but I like to min/max. Oh and for those that answered my question regarding Berserker's Call and Teron speedkills, I tried it out tonight. I messed up and didn't use it quick enough, though - so I only got about 10 second of my second use. I also messed up my shock rotation a little, so that kinda sucked. I also had a Feral this time, which I didn't have last time.

Here's the WWS if anyone is interested, ended up doing 2360 DPS.

WWS Loading...
How do you feel using 4/5 T6 over "best in slot" items. I was considering going that route in the future, but i simply cannot tell if it would be worthwhile.
#6773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
To be honest, I've tried both gearsets on different lockouts and the difference is relatively small. Sometimes I didn't even notice anything different. For this particular parse I min/max though so I switch items.

[Skyshatter Pauldrons] -> [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]
[Skyshatter Tunic] -> [Midnight Chestguard]
[Skyshatter Grips] -> [Fists of Mukoa]
[Skyshatter Pants] -> [Bow-stitched Leggings]

I like to look good, so that's why I wear T6! To be fair, non-set probably is a little (notice little) more dps, but at the cost of looks and stamina. Personal choice imo, the difference is so marginally small.

Last edited by Illundai : 02/07/08 at 12:20 AM.
#6774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3jwwpua
(Nature's Guidance, Improved Dual Wielding and Thundering Strikes do not appear on the paperdoll)
This is incorrect. Thundering strikes is included in the Crit % on the paperdoll.
#6775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai
[Skyshatter Pauldrons] -> [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]
[Skyshatter Tunic] -> [Midnight Chestguard]
[Skyshatter Grips] -> [Fists of Mukoa]
[Skyshatter Pants] -> [Bow-stitched Leggings]

I like to look good, so that's why I wear T6! To be fair, non-set probably is a little (notice little) more dps, but at the cost of looks and stamina. Personal choice imo, the difference is so marginally small.
I don't agree. I inserted Sebudai's T6 EP values and got this list: Loot Rank (couldn't remember RED's value so I just made something up).

In the three most important armor slots, head, chest, legs, you lose a crapload of EP going for T6 over best in-slot.

Edit: Numbers show that you lose a whopping 181.21 EP by using T6 over the three best head, chest and leg items. That's the ~ EP value of shoulder/gloves. So in theory, you could take those three best in-slot items, and un-equip gloves and still be tied with T6. Funny thought.

Last edited by Raut : 02/07/08 at 7:03 AM.
#6776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
Does Yo's simulator take into account 4 piece T5 bonus?
How much EP is that bonus (5% extra speed on flurry) worth? (in other words, I'm trying to figure out what amount of EP I'd have to get from an item or two items together to make it worth it for me to break up the 4 piece bonus.)
#6777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Raut
I don't agree. I inserted Sebudai's T6 EP values and got this list: Loot Rank (couldn't remember RED's value so I just made something up).

In the three most important armor slots, head, chest, legs, you lose a crapload of EP going for T6 over best in-slot.

Edit: Numbers show that you lose a whopping 181.21 EP by using T6 over the three best head, chest and leg items. That's the ~ EP value of shoulder/gloves. So in theory, you could take those three best in-slot items, and un-equip gloves and still be tied with T6. Funny thought.
Also, look at my avatar and tell me I'm sacrificing looks for dps. Non-set has the total package, pal!

I finally got to try Teron with Berserker's Call this week, so of course I'm targeted with the first Shadow of Death.
#6778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
The sim... A perfect situation with no human error, no random factors, no nothing.

Personal experience tells me it doesn't matter much DPS wise. You'll notice a little drop to using Tier 6, but not much. Try it out, the difference is so marginally small. If you want, when we do this Teron speedkilling again, I'll use Tier 6 opposed to non-set items this week. I'm willing to bet you 100 euros that the difference will be smaller than 30 dps.
#6779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Psibeast
Does Yo's simulator take into account 4 piece T5 bonus?
How much EP is that bonus (5% extra speed on flurry) worth? (in other words, I'm trying to figure out what amount of EP I'd have to get from an item or two items together to make it worth it for me to break up the 4 piece bonus.)
In the best of all possible worlds, it would be worth what 5% haste is worth from your EP values. Now this assumes that flurry has a 100% uptime, but you can take that and multiply it by your flurry uptime if you have an uptime meter to get the true value for you.

For me I believe the bonus was very nearly worth replacing my current helm, chest, t6 gloves, and my t6 pants and putting back on the t5 gear over that. That set bonus is insane.
#6780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai
The sim... A perfect situation with no human error, no random factors, no nothing.
There are random factors. The whole sim is designed around pushing random numbers into it and see what happens. One swing, 40% crit, dice(100), 1-40 means a crit. Dice is random. This is theorycrafting.

Personal experience tells me it doesn't matter much DPS wise. You'll notice a little drop to using Tier 6, but not much. Try it out, the difference is so marginally small. If you want, when we do this Teron speedkilling again, I'll use Tier 6 opposed to non-set items this week. I'm willing to bet you 100 euros that the difference will be smaller than 30 dps.
So you base your theory around one kill? This is 5/10000*60 that of one of the recommended runs of the sim. Of course you will see different results. It's not statistically viable. The def facto standard(Yo!'s sim, the recommended norm in this thread) says you are wrong. If you want to argue otherwise, hand over some numbers. Single WWSes do not count.

Edit:
Wraithlin - yeah, I just inserted something random. No non-meta helm is able to compete anyway.

Sebudai - More pink!

Last edited by Raut : 02/07/08 at 8:22 AM.
#6781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'm not that dumb. I already said I ran with both gearsets for several lockouts and concluded that the difference is marginally small. It's not that hard to get.

P.S: The sim models a fight where the mob never turns around, never hits you with aoe so you have to slow down DPS, doesn't take into account all the random factors besides combat mechanics. It's a simulation of the perfect model. That's what it does!

P.S.2: I think it's wrong to tell people "OMG TIER 6 IS BAD!" when it obviously isn't all that bad. Yes, some itempoints are wasted on mp5, but the rest of it is fairly well itemized. I lose ~50 AP from using nonset and gain ~1,5% crit. I'd hardly call that a "world of difference". Yes, a difference - but a small one.

[e] What happened to personal choice and flavour? It's not because the sim disagrees with me (and is correct, nonset is a little more dps) that I all of the sudden are terrible for using tier 6. I mean, I don't have to back up any of my claims with numbers, I'm not telling anyone that what I'm saying is the absolute truth. Someone asked me how 4t6 was working out, so I did.
#6782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Raut
If you don't base your theory on theorycrafting, how can you claim you only lose a little DPS by wearing T6? There needs to be some merit to this claim. If you check the link with Seb's EP, you'll see that fx. the chest actually is a pretty lousy item compared to a lot of other options. Chest, legs and head are the three armor items with the largest item budget and if you use T6 in these slots, you are theoretically losing your gloves wroth of stats.

Your conclusion is drawn by, what? WWS? Do you agree that one run, which is packed by outside random events that contribute or remove benefits for your DPS, is a poor choice to base your views on? I buy the stam and even looks arguments, but not your "it's hardly noticeable DPS-loss".

Last edited by Raut : 02/07/08 at 8:38 AM. Reason: no not is not not -_-
#6783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
If you don't want to believe the difference in DPS, then check how much actual stats I would gain/lose from changing gear.

Let's see here, I wear 4 pieces of tier 6. Shoulders, Chest, Gloves & Legs. I'll not post what I have socketed everything with, I'll just post the raw stats. (*)

Skyshatter Pauldrons: 54 Strength, 30 AP, 11 Hit, 36 Crit
Skyshatter Tunic: 46 Strength, 52 Crit, 15 Hit
Skyshatter Grips: 44 Strength, 26 Crit, 13 Hit
Skyshatter Pants: 51 Strength, 56 Crit, 21 Hit, 50 AP

Total of: 579 AP (4t6 bonus), 170 Crit (7.70% Crit), 60 Hit.

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator: 38 Agility, 36 Crit, 106 AP
Midnight Tunic: 15 Strength, 56 Crit, 29 Hit, 106 AP
Fists of Mukoa: 25 Agility, 37 Haste (2.35%), 76 AP
Bow-Stitched Leggings: 42 Agility, 20 Strength, 37 Crit, 150 AP

Total of: 515 AP, 129 Crit (5.84% Crit), 115.5 Agility (4.62% Crit), 29 Hit, 2.35% Haste.

Nonset would make me lose: 64 AP, 31 Hit.
Nonset would make me gain: 2.76% Crit, 2.35% Haste.

I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.

(*) Awfully sleepy today, hope I didn't mess anything up.

[e] You also gain: 81.4 Stamina, 14.3 Int by wearing t6 over above listed items. The intellect difference would be larger if I were comparing it to Grips of the Damned & Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes.
[e2] This is all assuming Kings of course.

Last edited by Illundai : 02/07/08 at 9:22 AM.
#6784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Why not? If it's a personal view on it and he hardly notice any DPS loss why can't you just buy that?

Edit: Comment was to the tauren.
#6785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
You should actually be comparing the Hydross shoulders vs the T6 as best in slot.
#6786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
4

or LWing shoulders (like mine).

Also, the 4 piece set bonus from T6 has some EP value.
#6787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan
You should actually be comparing the Hydross shoulders vs the T6 as best in slot.
Well yah, I would but I don't have them. I was just comparing my options. It's all moot anyway. Nonset will provide more DPS. I never said it didn't. Just wanted to go in against the claims that it would be a "huge" difference.
#6788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Illundai - I dunno about you but using Warcrafter.net to compare all best slots vs T6 slots, enchanted and gemmed appropriately to meet RED requirements I'm seeing very different numbers from yours. In favor of the nonset - +80AP, 2.35% haste, -20 hit, +5% crit chance, +8.88 expertise.
[e] Actually I guess if you add in the 70 AP set bonus than its really only +10 AP for the nonset. But the crit, expertise and haste are going to amplify that.

I'd say that strongly suggests a hell of a lot more than a "non noticable" dps increase. I would in fact say its pretty a big gap. The only loss from the nonset was that T6 has 20 more hit rating.

To compare I took Yo's Warcrafter.net profile and duplicated it. So 1 profile was 'all best in slot nonT6' and then I simply replaced the helm/shoulders/chest/legs/gloves with T6 and enchanted/socketed it. Any slot that wasn't T6 remained the same between both sets.
#6789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ridan
Midnight Tunic: 15 Strength, 56 Crit, 29 Hit, 106 AP
Bow-Stitched Leggings: 42 Agility, 20 Strength, 37 Crit, 150 AP
Don't forget socket bonus (8 ap for the Midnight chestguard and 4 crit on the Bow-Stitched Leggings)
#6790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Uh, how are you getting such different numbers then? I'm prepared to go back on my statements if I were to be proven wrong somehow. Let's see here...

My sockets and enchants for Tier6:

[Skyshatter Tunic] + 6 All Stats + 1x[Jagged Seaspray Emerald] + 2x[Smooth Lionseye]
(I've considered to use 2 spinels rather than the 10 Crit gems, but using 10 Crit gems and my EP values the 10 Crit x2 came out better)
[Skyshatter Pauldrons] + Aldor Enchant + 2x[Bold Crimson Spinel]
[Skyshatter Gloves] + 15 Strength + [Inscribed Pyrestone]
[Skyshatter Pants] + Nethercobra Enchant + [Inscribed Pyrestone]

vs what? I'd be interested to see what you socket the best in slot with.
#6791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Oh you were only doing 4pc T6? I was comparing 5pc.
#6792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kint
[e] You posted right as I did.

Please note I didn't include enchants here because both items are going to have the same gains there.

t6 shoulders - 34 str 11 hit 26 crit 13 str 10 crit 2 pyrestones
t6 gloves - 39 str 13 hit 21 crit 7 str 5 crit 1 pyrestone
t6 chest - 46 str 15 hit 27 crit 19 str 10 crit 1 amethyst, 2 pyrestones
t6 legs - 46 str 21 hit 39 crit 7str 1 amethyst

Totals(with Kings) - 232.1 (464 ap, 534 with t6bonus) str 60 hit 138 (6.27%) crit

hidden predator - 38 agi 26 crit 76 ap
fists of mukkoa - 25 agi 37 haste 76 ap
midnight chestguard - 29 hit 46 crit 106 ap 20 str 5 crit 8 ap 1 spinel, 1 pyrestone, 1 amethyst
bow-stitched leggings - 42 agi 20 crit 100 ap 20 str 4 crit 1 spinel, 1 pyrestone, 1 amethyst

Totals(with Kings) - 454 ap 202.64 (9.21%) crit 37 haste
#6793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan
Oh you were only doing 4pc T6? I was comparing 5pc.
Yah. 4pieces (Shoulders, Chest, Legs & Gloves) + Cursed Vision. There's no way I'd not wear Cursed Vision, it's just too good.
#6794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
In the best of all possible worlds, it would be worth what 5% haste is worth from your EP values. Now this assumes that flurry has a 100% uptime, but you can take that and multiply it by your flurry uptime if you have an uptime meter to get the true value for you.

For me I believe the bonus was very nearly worth replacing my current helm, chest, t6 gloves, and my t6 pants and putting back on the t5 gear over that. That set bonus is insane.
Ok, unless I botched up my math I am getting something in the ballpark figure of 100-120 EP. So once I get upgrades worth more than that I should break up the set.

I'll really have a hard time letting go of the 2 piece bonus though That insta-heal may not translate into DPS directly, but I like being able to throw insta-heals once in a while. How could blizz put such awsome bonuses on T5 and such worthless crap bonuses on T6?
#6795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Interestingly enough, if you have both Shoulderpads of the Stranger (from Hydross) and Gloves of the Searing Grip (from Al'ar) the total expertise score rounds up making it one of the most powerful combination : 200.79 + 179.01 = 379.8 AEP

Shoulderpads of the Stranger + Grips of damnation makes 194.43 (due to 2 expertise score lost) + 188.97 = 383.4 AEP which is only a 1% increase.
#6796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Psibeast
I'll really have a hard time letting go of the 2 piece bonus though That insta-heal may not translate into DPS directly, but I like being able to throw insta-heals once in a while. How could blizz put such awsome bonuses on T5 and such worthless crap bonuses on T6?
I hope you are just joking. We are not really supposed to heal and this occasional instant LHW makes no difference in helping the healers. When I had this bonus I felt it's only for keeping myself busy when shocks and SS are on cooldown.
#6797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I don't think implied anything along the lines of being a replacement healer with the set bonus.
#6798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Yeah, I don't think he was talking about using it regularly as an actual reliable means of healing the raid. It's more of a handy, "oh, look, that guy just took a Static Disruption and got knocked into the air immediately after, and will die when he lands if no one else noticed" (on Eagle in ZA, since it's the first thing that came to mind). Yes, our first and foremost job is to DPS and to improve the DPS of everyone in our group, but (and I speak from the PoV of mostly 10-mans here, of course) never, ever forget that you have heal buttons you can use in emergencies. I would never specifically go for the T5 bonus just for the sake of having it over some actual DPS upgrade, but I'd definitely use it if I happened to have it.
#6799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Illundai
If you don't want to believe the difference in DPS, then check how much actual stats I would gain/lose from changing gear.

Let's see here, I wear 4 pieces of tier 6. Shoulders, Chest, Gloves & Legs. I'll not post what I have socketed everything with, I'll just post the raw stats. (*)

Skyshatter Pauldrons: 54 Strength, 30 AP, 11 Hit, 36 Crit
Skyshatter Tunic: 46 Strength, 52 Crit, 15 Hit
Skyshatter Grips: 44 Strength, 26 Crit, 13 Hit
Skyshatter Pants: 51 Strength, 56 Crit, 21 Hit, 50 AP

Total of: 579 AP (4t6 bonus), 170 Crit (7.70% Crit), 60 Hit.

Shoulders of the Hidden Predator: 38 Agility, 36 Crit, 106 AP
Midnight Tunic: 15 Strength, 56 Crit, 29 Hit, 106 AP
Fists of Mukoa: 25 Agility, 37 Haste (2.35%), 76 AP
Bow-Stitched Leggings: 42 Agility, 20 Strength, 37 Crit, 150 AP

Total of: 515 AP, 129 Crit (5.84% Crit), 115.5 Agility (4.62% Crit), 29 Hit, 2.35% Haste.

Nonset would make me lose: 64 AP, 31 Hit.
Nonset would make me gain: 2.76% Crit, 2.35% Haste.

I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.

(*) Awfully sleepy today, hope I didn't mess anything up.

[e] You also gain: 81.4 Stamina, 14.3 Int by wearing t6 over above listed items. The intellect difference would be larger if I were comparing it to Grips of the Damned & Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes.
[e2] This is all assuming Kings of course.

I wear the same as you stated that you had, 4p t6 with Cursed Vision, but for different reasons.

I have the [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] (and [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]), and the [Grips of Damnation] (and [Fists of Mukoa]), but I did not win the Bow-stitched or the Midnight chest.

Once I get one of those items, I'll be swapping out my 4p t6 for the off-set pieces. Simply more EP.

I know you agree that offset is more damage, but why argue wearing something less than the best? I don't think looking good in armor weighs as high as putting out more damage.
#6800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai
I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.
The problem is that the non-set is better at every step of the way. T6 only comes close when you add in the +70 AP set bonus. So for every piece of gear you grab until 4/5 T6, non-set is a lot better choice, then at 4/5 T6, non-set is a little better, then once you are in Sunwell and start losing T6, non-set is a lot better.
#6801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai
I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.
The problem is that the non-set is better at every step of the way. T6 only comes close when you add in the +70 AP set bonus. So for every piece of gear you grab until 4/5 T6, non-set is a lot better choice, then at 4/5 T6, non-set is a little better, then once you are in Sunwell and start losing T6, non-set is a lot better.
#6802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
The looks was just a joke...

Disregarding that, I prefer Tier 6 because it offers me more survivability for a little drop in DPS. It's also a hell of a lot easier to keep up Twisting with the added intellect. Don't get me wrong, I know you can sustain Twisting with the other set too (I've done it before) but the t6 gives me a little more leeway with it in case we have no Ret Paladin with us and JoW falls off. All in all it depends on my mood. If I want to break DPS records, I'll use nonset. If I want a calm evening with a little more leeway to survive AoE damage and whatever you want to name, I'll wear Tier 6.
#6803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
I talked about the small difference between FIVE piece t6 + mail drops (teron boots, ros belt) and all the random leather gear (hydross shoulder, vashj belt) a few pages back, with "perfect" gear in a perfect situation, the difference is around 5% dps or 60-80 dps.

Comparing the raw stats, you could think it should be a much bigger difference. But i did several (about 8-10 each) 50.000 hours simulations to proof this.

WoW Digger Profile

-Mail-
AP 1730
Crit 31.55
Hit 14.84
ArP 350
Haste 0%
Exp 0%
(+ ~ 3.000 mana to spent for twisting and +1.21% spellcrit)

-Leather-
AP 1828
Crit 34.41
Hit 11.54
ArP 350
Haste 2.35%
Exp -2%

Comparing items, which are on the same itemlevel but on our ep comparisons 20-30% better/worse and have in the end only such a small impact on your possible max dps makes me sad. There is no real need to buff tier 6, nor a season 3 over a bt weapon or cursed vision over tier 4 helmet improves our dps by such a wide margin like it does for other dps classes. It might feel better from looking at the back of your character and seeing differend shoulder design every few month, but my dps didn't jump like mad since i got my t4/t5 gear, but our rogues/fury ones did. Don't understand my wrong, i don't wand to make this post a whining post, just wanted to support Illundai claim by a personal note.
#6804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Also, look at my avatar and tell me I'm sacrificing looks for dps. Non-set has the total package, pal!
http://i30.tinypic.com/1onb5y.jpg > uggo orc

I am totally a replacement healer on raids. Every eye beam went on one side last week so I got to spam chain heal for 4 minutes. The beauty and glory of the yellow beams was overwhelming. Almost as overwhelming as a plastic bag,
#6805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai
I don't know about you, but I don't think that's going to make a HUGE difference as you're trying to claim. A difference, sure. But not a big one.
Oh, I'm not claiming HUGE differences in DPS. I'm saying I don't buy the original claim that "the difference is so marginally small". I didn't calculate the set bonus which will reduce the EP gap so it's not as terrifying as I first thought. I should of course have asked you what you meant "small" is in this case, but IMHO we should refrain from such without numbers in a theorycrafting thread.

PS: Raevii?
#6806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Raut
Oh, I'm not claiming HUGE differences in DPS. I'm saying I don't buy the original claim that "the difference is so marginally small". I didn't calculate the set bonus which will reduce the EP gap so it's not as terrifying as I first thought. I should of course have asked you what you meant "small" is in this case, but IMHO we should refrain from such without numbers in a theorycrafting thread.
Misunderstanding from both sides, which is okay. Maybe marginally small is exaggerated, but I honestly think it matters very little - it's personal flavour. Do you like the extra stam/int? Or do you not care and want to push DPS all the time? It's a bit like the Ele vs Resto discussion.
#6807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Looking like a clown > Looking Cool

Coming up as 2nd-3rd on Dps > Looking Cool

Huzzah !

P.S. Just for kicks

Pics of My own

Last edited by Bragor : 02/07/08 at 2:59 PM. Reason: Resizing
#6808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
I know this isn't theorycrafting, but damn Bragor, that is really a clown suit.
Wish I had some actual numbers to support/disprove T6 as a replacement. But all I've got is the same thing I harp on all the time.

STAMINA: tier 6 swims in the stuff.
Tier6 offers a gigantic bucket of stamina over the best non-tier pieces, and it reduces the cost of your shocks. These two benefits make it very appropriate for fighting the Illidari council where you won't get anywhere near a full shamanistic rage's worth of mana back.

YOUR RAID: our loot rules and raid luck have left me in non-tier healing pieces, ymmv.
Your raid's luck and loot rules will influence whether you wear cursed vision and midnight chest much, much, much more than whether non-set provides 100DPS more or just 20DPS more than taking tier6.
We've had 1 cursed vision drop and zero midnight chestguards, we only killed vashj 6 times or so, zero belts/shoulders but dammit we literally got 7 cobra-lash boots out of 6 kills (ok, that's an exaggeration).

Pretty soon, you'll get 3 tier6 tokens, but Archi will drop the same damn 2handed sword and bow again... week after week. Your rogues already 2 bristles each, but there it is again... If it wasn't for attunements, you'd have sold Archimonde slots to pug hunters because the bow will drop.... sorry for the rant.
#6809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Whodi
My rogues love me and gave me the first Midnight Chestguard that dropped for us last week. Its so awesome to have a melee group that works together and appreciates their Enhance Shaman
#6810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Whodi
My rogues love me and gave me the first Midnight Chestguard that dropped for us last week. Its so awesome to have a melee group that works together and appreciates their Enhance Shaman
WFT is the best hostage ever.

With the new talents the t6 2p is pretty much useless, I'm hoping the 6.5 itemization will be a little better.
#6811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by drats
WFT is the best hostage ever.
QFT. Since we mostly just do 10-mans, our "melee" group is really me, tanking warrior, feral druid, sword rogue, hunter. The rogue and I get along wonderfully, but I still threaten to take WF away from him when he does something stupid. It works every time.
#6812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
I have a question here. I have used the simulator but apparently cannot get the answer I want.

I am looking for a comparison between these two helms.

[Storm Helm] -- This is socketed with 3 [Bold Living Ruby] and the CE head enhant.

Overall Stats with helm equipped:

Strength: 359
Agility: 302
Stamina: 593
Intellect: 247
AP: 1550
Hit: 125
Crit: 30.49%

VERSUS

[Gladiator's Linked Helm] -- This is socketed with 1 [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] [Inscribed Noble Topaz] and the CE head enhant.

Strength: 373
Agility: 314
Stamina: 623
Intellect: 219
AP: 1534
Hit: 125
Crit: 31.33%

Now I am fully aware of the meta gem and what it brings to the table. I am just wondering and which helm would put out more stats in a raid environment.

Thank you for your help.
#6813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
It's rolled twice. I have have on more than one occation dispelled 3 buffs with 2 casts. (1 first time, 2 more second time).
This is regarding purge.

EDIT: Learn to refresh
#6814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
I was mentioning to a fairly skilled t6 raider on my server the other week that [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] were a bit better (~20 EP) than the [Cobra-Lash Boots] he was wearing.

His answer was, "Dude, if my raid saw I traded a Vashj drop for Karazhan badge gear, I'd never raid with them again."

He went on to mention that he doesn't drop WFT. Apparently in his raid, first priority goes to the raiders with the top numbers in parses. When he drops WFT, his DPS proportional to his rogues' DPS went way down, and he gets bumped for not pulling his weight. So he drops GoA.

Point is there's lots of reasons why we don't follow theorycraft. That doesn't change the theory.
#6815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
I am looking for a comparison between these two helms.
Hey, it's cool if you can't figure out tools like the simulator, because there are even easier tools that don't involve us doing your math homework. They're much less accurate, but they're easy. Go to MaxDPS.com - Enhancement Shaman DPS Gear Rankings and enter your stats. Notice how the one helm is really far down the list, and the other is sort of near the top? Guess which one's better!
#6816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
Now I am fully aware of the meta gem and what it brings to the table. I am just wondering and which helm would put out more stats in a raid environment.

Thank you for your help.
The Gladiator's helm with the meta will provide superior DPS. Even without the 3% crit damage, the overall AP/hit/crit stats point toward better damage with the Gladiator's helm. Add in the additional effect from the meta, and it gets even better. Hope that helps.



Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I was mentioning to a fairly skilled t6 raider on my server the other week that [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] were a bit better (~20 EP) than the [Cobra-Lash Boots] he was wearing.

His answer was, "Dude, if my raid saw I traded a Vashj drop for Karazhan badge gear, I'd never raid with them again."

He went on to mention that he doesn't drop WFT. Apparently in his raid, first priority goes to the raiders with the top numbers in parses. When he drops WFT, his DPS proportional to his rogues' DPS went way down, and he gets bumped for not pulling his weight. So he drops GoA.

Point is there's lots of reasons why we don't follow theorycraft. That doesn't change the theory.
Have him kindly point his raid leader to this thread and some math showing how to determine what gear is better than others. If my raid leader didn't trust that I know what I was doing upgrading from [Beastmaw Pauldrons] to [Wastewalker Shoulderpads] before I had ZA shoulders, I'd be Looking For Guild. Similarly, if his raid leader doesn't understand that an enhancement shaman brings his actual DPS + the sum of the DPS from buffs he gives his group, and that sometimes he is willing to sacrifice his own damage for the betterment of the raid, I'm very surprised they've gotten as far as they have. I'd also be Looking For Guild.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 02/07/08 at 5:35 PM.
#6817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
Ballpark "dps" for end-game bosses

Hello everyone. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to maybe add ballpark sustained dps figures to the wiki or this post for various end-game boss fights for people to use as a comparison.

Given average T5/T6 gear, and using the idea melee group listed on page one, is there a shaman out there who has a lot of WWS data available to provide these numbers?

E.g.

Teron Gorefiend: 1600 dps
Illidari Council: 1100 dps
etc.

Of course, dps changes from fight to fight depending on many factors including your gear, your group, etc, but thats why im stressing "ballpark" figures.

Good idea? Terrible idea?

Cheers all.
#6818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Sebudai probably has enough parses to give a good average on that kind of thing. I would have had enough too, if it wasn't for WWS deleting about 90% of my parses yesterday, so I only have about 3 weeks worth of parses >.>
#6819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Problem is the extreme differences between a guild farming BT and just having killed Illidan.
#6820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
Originally Posted by vorda
Problem is the extreme differences between a guild farming BT and just having killed Illidan.
Very true. And many other constraints like your group makeup, your gear level, tank threat generation, etc, etc.

I suppose that's why i suggested ball park values, perhaps even ranges.

So assuming threat's not an issue, its not your first kill, you have T5/T6 gear, and you're in an ideal Melee group:

Teron Gorefiend: 1500 - 1800 dps.
Illidan: 1 - 1600 dps

Or something like that.
#6821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Well I can give you numbers if all else fails, but I don't have more than 2 or 3 parses per boss.
#6822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Teron depends extremly on your fight lengths. How many heroism/drums/hastepots/trinket cooldowns you can use in this time and so on.

Twisting on Teron, Rage and Anetheron with your gear level, a fury warrior's battle shout OR a feral's lotp, zero drums or haste potions, no recklessness or expose armor and one heroism during an 5-6 minute fight -> 1000 dps.
Council 850 dps without twisting.
Mother 750 dps without twisting (for obvious reasons).

But why don't you ran the simulator and multiply the given dps with 0.8 (20% human error) or check the huge wws pool for some data.

Rage: If you have a lot of death and decay on your tank, you can't dps.
Anetheron: If you have all of the infernals on the melees, you have to save your ass.
Council: If you can't trust your camphealer for any reason (eg. they struggle or they are dead), have a lot of aoe in melee range beside the consecrate, you can't dps.

If someone didn't keep up an important buff all the time and you didn't realise it, the data will be corrupted.

If you can't reach the given number or break them easily, it says nothing. Did you shock enough and didn't break the record? Critluck was with everyone expect you? I have some parses with over 50% critrate and another log with +- 10 seconds lengths of the fight, same gear and makeup and 15% less crit.

Could continue forever but i hope you got it.
#6823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
Originally Posted by Myul
Could continue forever but i hope you got it.
Loud and clear. Ill try to scrape together some averages from the public WWS data available once the WWS site gets a little more stable (laggy for anyone else?). I would just like to see some averages, under normal circumstances, average fight durations, etc. Just something new shamans can use as an anchor in analyzing their own WWS reports (as opposed to linking them here :P).

Cheers
#6824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tatonka
does anyone have an aep value for the 4 pc t6 set bonus?
#6825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
~70EP

Little lower if you dont SS every 10-12s.

Yo's sim gives 62ep. w/o expertice gear if you wait 3s wf cd.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/07/08 at 8:20 PM.
#6826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Stoical
Originally Posted by Illundai
Well I can give you numbers if all else fails, but I don't have more than 2 or 3 parses per boss.
Changing the subject a bit, I didn't see any discussion of proper cooldown stacking in the OP. I noticed in your Teron kill, Illundai, that you didn't seem to stack haste cooldowns much. Is this intentional? I would think that using Drums of Battle/Haste Pot/Berserker's Call all together at the start would provide the largest benefit, and then 2m later you could use those 3 again along with Shamanistic Rage and Heroism. Or Shamanistic Rage earlier, if you don't want to wait the 2m to start getting mana back.

Forgive me if I'm missing some commonly known fact about haste usage on a shaman, trying to get some TC knowledge from this thread to prep for raiding on a shaman in the exp; currently I raid exclusively on a paladin.

Last edited by Stoical : 02/07/08 at 9:32 PM.
#6827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Myul
Mother 750 dps without twisting (for obvious reasons).
I don't actually have any problems twisting on Mother.

I find that the constant beams proc Water Shield very frequently so I never have mana problems. (JoW would be up around 50% of the time as well)
#6828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Stoical
Changing the subject a bit, I didn't see any discussion of proper cooldown stacking in the OP. I noticed in your Teron kill, Illundai, that you didn't seem to stack haste cooldowns much. Is this intentional? I would think that using Drums of Battle/Haste Pot/Berserker's Call all together at the start would provide the largest benefit, and then 2m later you could use those 3 again along with Shamanistic Rage and Heroism. Or Shamanistic Rage earlier, if you don't want to wait the 2m to start getting mana back.

Forgive me if I'm missing some commonly known fact about haste usage on a shaman, trying to get some TC knowledge from this thread to prep for raiding on a shaman in the exp; currently I raid exclusively on a paladin.
Well like I said, I messed up my BC's first use so I didn't get the max out of that. We had a ret paladin so Sham Rage was only used to shield myself from incoming damage when raid damage was at a high point. I used Haste pot as soon as aggro was stable during the heroism. We also had a bit of a messy Drums rotation, so we didn't get all of them rolling either.

Originally Posted by Joy
I don't actually have any problems twisting on Mother.

I find that the constant beams proc Water Shield very frequently so I never have mana problems. (JoW would be up around 50% of the time as well)
It's not only the mana, it's the silences too. Will and does mess up your rotation.
#6829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Illundai
It's not only the mana, it's the silences too. Will and does mess up your rotation.
I bet he can avoid it using cow range... bastard.
#6830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Morelis
I bet he can avoid it using cow range... bastard.

Too be honest I've never attempted to outrange it, I usually use deviates to minimize my FA hitbox.
Just never get silenced more than a handful of times.
#6831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Myul
Twisting on Teron, Rage and Anetheron with your gear level, a fury warrior's battle shout OR a feral's lotp, zero drums or haste potions, no recklessness or expose armor and one heroism during an 5-6 minute fight -> 1000 dps.
Council 850 dps without twisting.
Mother 750 dps without twisting (for obvious reasons).
These values seem very conservative, on Teron you should be aiming for atleast 1200 DPS I'd say, which should be easily achieved. I've not been below 1500 dps on teron for months and months now.

I can't see any reason to go below 1000 DPS on mother either, if you are severly gimping yourself with max SR gear (without enchants) then you really don't need too. I've found having around 250 buffed is sufficient for me especially with the use of SR on an attraction.

Council very much depends on your luck with the aoe, last kill I had 1500 dps but some weeks only 1000.

I think a reasonable "base" value for all BT/Hyjal raiding shamans would be 1000 DPS on each boss.
#6832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
I pulled 1400 DPS on Teron last night. 1 Heroism, 1 drum, lotp, BS and EW. No haste pots, no twisting.

I'm a resto shammy, and respecced last night just to see how my DPS would work out (mostly for fun, and we have no enh shammy atm).
I'm wearing quite a few Kara pieces and some end-game pieces, and also a blue ring from a regular 70 instance and lvl62 quest reward trinket from HP :P
I could use a regeming on my pants aswell (very old and did the geming very very long time ago).

Anyway, I dont even have a Enh totem in my totem slot.. My gear is far from optimal, and i still produced some decent numbers there, so yes I agree. 1k DPS on Teron seems modest if you are a raiding Enh shammy.
#6833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Kyuki
I pulled 1400 DPS on Teron last night. 1 Heroism, 1 drum, lotp, BS and EW. No haste pots, no twisting.

I'm a resto shammy, and respecced last night just to see how my DPS would work out (mostly for fun, and we have no enh shammy atm).
I'm wearing quite a few Kara pieces and some end-game pieces, and also a blue ring from a regular 70 instance and lvl62 quest reward trinket from HP :P
I could use a regeming on my pants aswell (very old and did the geming very very long time ago).

Anyway, I dont even have a Enh totem in my totem slot.. My gear is far from optimal, and i still produced some decent numbers there, so yes I agree. 1k DPS on Teron seems modest if you are a raiding Enh shammy.
This worries me a fair bit. I have quite decent gear, but I only managed to pull out 1100DPS on our last Teron kill with spamming a SS\WF\GoA\ES macro and three rogues and a feral druid in the group. I'm not very disappointed with my damage, but I feel it could be better over all.

WWS Loading...

(I got the boots the day after on Mother, and our JC who can cut the orange gem was MIA. )
#6834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Kyuki
I pulled 1400 DPS on Teron last night. 1 Heroism, 1 drum, lotp, BS and EW. No haste pots, no twisting.

I'm wearing quite a few Kara pieces and some end-game pieces, and also a blue ring from a regular 70 instance and lvl62 quest reward trinket from HP :P

Anyway, I dont even have a Enh totem in my totem slot.. My gear is far from optimal, and i still produced some decent numbers there, so yes I agree. 1k DPS on Teron seems modest if you are a raiding Enh shammy.
Got a WWS to back that up? Right now that's a pretty ridiculous claim given some of the gear you're using.
#6835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Kyuki please post the wws, your guild just killed bloodboil this month, so the fight should take a few more minutes then for a "game over" guild.
1400 dps with full support but no twisting is more than decent and i hardly doubt your number is correct for a 5+ minutes fight and your gear.
#6836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
This worries me a fair bit. I have quite decent gear, but I only managed to pull out 1100DPS on our last Teron kill with spamming a SS\WF\GoA\ES macro and three rogues and a feral druid in the group. I'm not very disappointed with my damage, but I feel it could be better over all.

WWS Loading...

(I got the boots the day after on Mother, and our JC who can cut the orange gem was MIA. )
Your WWS looks pretty normal to me, only real remark I can give currently is your leg gems. You gem hit and follow colors for a bonus that is worthless.
#6837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
No CoR or FF on your Teron kill? That's a big chunk of DPS there. You should definitely be doing more though, why are you not using Flame Shock?
#6838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
spamming a SS\WF\GoA\ES macro
Dude, we're not hunters. You can't just macro everything to one button and be done with it. SS/WFT/GoA is a fine macro, but you really should manage a FS/ES rotation outside of that cycle. You'll still get the same number of shocks per cycle with this rotation, but FS is a nice addition to your dps.

You're also going to see an 80-100 dps falloff from somebody who has a warrior for Battle Shout.

But I think this all comes down to priority. If you make twisting your primary goal, that comes at the expense of shocks & SS. You're going to do less DPS than somebody who's a bit more balanced.

Think about it: with your macro, your shock cooldown will ALWAYS be up a half second after SS is up. But you let that CD rest for 4 more seconds while you ride out the SS GCD and drop WFT/GoA. It's the equivalent of having shocks on a 10s timer, rather than a 6s timer, and

If you were instead to use the shock as soon as the SS GCD was up, you'd wind up with more shocks at the expense of 1.5s of WFT. It could be substantial (shocks make up 15% of my damage when not twisting, 12% when twisting "casually" and about 9% when prioritizing WFT). Question is, how much does it bother you?
#6839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Wow, quite interesting to see so many quick judges

I'm sorry I didnt post it right away (was in a hurry), but seriously, I've never posted anything on these boards (not that I've posted alot, but still), that has any indication of beeing a lie...
WWS Teron

I did exaggerate, I'm sorry. I did only pull 1358 DPS - which I still think is rather decent.
#6840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Boro
Good job Kyuki, you did an awesome job in that raid with your gear. I think at the same stage I used to do about 1100-1200 but my gear was better than yours. It was at this time I posted my posts about, how come DPS varies so much on WWS. Someone pointed out to me that average raid dps in my parse wasn't as high as say in Seb's and others.

I think someone else pointed out that comparisons across WWS parses are meaningless, but you are definately at the top end of what you could do with that gear. A perfect run in my opinion for you and well done again.
#6841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Was not my meaning to come here and boast of how awesome I am - I mean this is a off-spec of mine and just wanted to see how I fared on a night.

I just thought that 1000 DPS on average for Teron seems low, specially considering how I'm quite undergeared for the instance and did more. Nothing else.

--

As a sidenote, someone pointed out my guilds progression as something that made it even less likely that I could do 1400 DPS, yes our guild does not have the best progress, but we have banged our head against archimonde since before christmas and was up to about 100 attempts where we decided to go back to BT 1-2 weeks ago. It took us 8 attempts in total to kill Teron (was before christmas though), and 6 to kill bloodboil. Next time we face RoS, we'll down that too. We could've been deeper, that's what I'm saying, but Archi stood in the way (still does.. *Grr*).
#6842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Thanks however Boro - kind words.
#6843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
To be fair, you don't always get a feral druid.
#6844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Would that reduce my DPS with 300~?
#6845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
No, but I'm just mentioning it. I'm pretty sure 5% crit is close to 100 dps at least :P.
#6846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3johnnysd
GLooking for some simple advice

I think that this thread is great, although a bit too long to read every post.

I just reached 70, and while I am pretty uber in PVE soloing, I am not the greatest in instances from a DPS standpoint. I do OK but NOTHING like what people on here are doing.

The thing that strikes me is that this thread is so advanced that it is really not much use to someone like me. I had some I guess "noob" lvl 70 questions and I hope you can answer and not flame.

1. What is the sequence of skills you use to get the DPS you get. Do you completely SPAM SS-WFproc-ES? Or some other sequence?

2. What is the best approach to upgrading my gear allowing that I am not able to play 8 hours a day?

Here is my armory, sad as it is:

The World of Warcraft Armory
#6847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by johnnysd
The thing that strikes me is that this thread is so advanced that it is really not much use to someone like me. I had some I guess "noob" lvl 70 questions and I hope you can answer and not flame.
While it's true that the OP is pretty dense if you're just looking for general start-up tips for playing an enhancement shaman, if you look through it carefully you'll find what you're looking for. Take some time over a couple days and read through it if you really want to improve your performance in groups.

There's only one thing I'll stress, because it's the most common mistake newly-70 shamans make:

Don't use bad weapons. If your off-hand (or either hand for that matter) is much below 2.6, you're doing it wrong. Almost every single terrible enhancement shaman I've seen (and I've seen a lot) have been using fast off-hands. Read the OP if you don't understand why, but seriously. Slow. If it's not slow, it's not good, no matter what the DPS and stats are on it.

Looking at your armory, other than a ring and a trinket you've got the right idea. WF both weapons, try to time your Stormstrikes outside the WF CD (Enhancer is an excellent mod for that), and you should be fine.
#6848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Kyuki
Wow, quite interesting to see so many quick judges

I'm sorry I didnt post it right away (was in a hurry), but seriously, I've never posted anything on these boards (not that I've posted alot, but still), that has any indication of beeing a lie...
WWS Teron

I did exaggerate, I'm sorry. I did only pull 1358 DPS - which I still think is rather decent.
I'd like to see those numbers replicated on future attempts. Not trying to knock you, especially since you normally play resto, but my guess is that you just hit a pretty lucky streak. That's the wonderful and the terrible thing about Windfury. Sometimes you get lucky at it procs wonderfully and you hit big crits every time. Sometimes it doesn't proc all that well and you get rather mediocre crits. Of course the slumps can be mitigated by rolling with 2.6 speeders and whatnot, but you can still hit huge valleys for certain fights as well as huge peaks.

I've done entire SSC/TK runs where my damage was 100-200/300 DPS off my norm with no changes from the previous week. I'm talking same buffs, personnel, everything equal.

So, I think you'll probably be around 1000-1100 DPS normally (which is still awesome) and you got a nice fight in at 1358. Probably not consistently repeatable with that gear tho.
#6849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by johnnysd
1. What is the sequence of skills you use to get the DPS you get. Do you completely SPAM SS-WFproc-ES? Or some other sequence?
If your tank is good or your gear is bad you can open with Stormstrike, Flame Shock, totems, Earth Shock. If your tank needs time to grab aggro, drop totems first (WF if he's a warrior, it will give you more room on threat) and then start in on the DPS.
2. What is the best approach to upgrading my gear allowing that I am not able to play 8 hours a day?

Here is my armory, sad as it is:

The World of Warcraft Armory
Do at least the daily BG and save honor points for a [Gladiator's Cleaver]. Run 5-mans for good blues. Desolation is a pretty damn good starter set, and 3/5 of it can be obtained outside heroics. Make an effort to get at least 2 pieces since the 2-piece bonus is very nice. Ditch items that don't contribute at all to melee stats. Once you are geared enough to go to heroics, do so. Use the EP values with a tool like LootRank with the item level set low.

Last edited by Rob : 02/08/08 at 6:12 PM.
#6850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3johnnysd
Originally Posted by Rob
If your tank is good or your gear is bad you can open with Stormstrike, Flame Shock, totems, Earth Shock. If your tank needs time to grab aggro, drop totems first (WF if he's a warrior, it will give you more room on threat) and then start in on the DPS.

Do at least the daily BG and save honor points for a [Gladiator's Cleaver]. Run 5-mans for good blues. Desolation is a pretty damn good starter set, and 3/5 of it can be obtained outside heroics. Make an effort to get at least 2 pieces since the 2-piece bonus is very nice. Ditch items that don't contribute at all to melee stats. Once you are geared enough to go to heroics, do so. Use the EP values with a tool like LootRank with the item level set low.
I have not been opening with SS. That might make a difference. What is the daily BG?
#6851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Imperator
I'd like to see those numbers replicated on future attempts. Not trying to knock you, especially since you normally play resto, but my guess is that you just hit a pretty lucky streak.

So, I think you'll probably be around 1000-1100 DPS normally (which is still awesome) and you got a nice fight in at 1358. Probably not consistently repeatable with that gear tho.
That was pretty much my take on the WWS he posted as well. Considering the difference in gear between he and I, I'm consistently at about 1400-1450 on Teron, so when he said he was getting 1400 I was shocked. Even at 1358 I'm still surprised, since I would expect the gearing differences, weapons especially, to be more than 100 dps between he and I.
#6852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by johnnysd
What is the daily BG?
Offtopic for this thread, but here's a guide.
#6853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rob
If your tank is good or your gear is bad you can open with Stormstrike, Flame Shock, totems, Earth Shock. If your tank needs time to grab aggro, drop totems first (WF if he's a warrior, it will give you more room on threat) and then start in on the DPS.
Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that? Just eager to get started, or does dropping the totems start the timer WWS/Recount use to calculate your DPS (I assumed it wouldn't)?

I usually drop totems before the pull if possible, otherwise on the run in. If the tank has a good aggro footing, I open with flame shock while still closing the distance, SS, etc. Otherwise I just autoattack and ease into things.
#6854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Originally Posted by Joy
Too be honest I've never attempted to outrange it, I usually use deviates to minimize my FA hitbox.
Just never get silenced more than a handful of times.

I'm silenced for like half the time during that fight, granted i barely wear any SR, but it's one of the most annoying twisting situations in the world (next to being ele/enhance with a hunter in your group).
#6855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that? Just eager to get started, or does dropping the totems start the timer WWS/Recount use to calculate your DPS (I assumed it wouldn't)?

I usually drop totems before the pull if possible, otherwise on the run in. If the tank has a good aggro footing, I open with flame shock while still closing the distance, SS, etc. Otherwise I just autoattack and ease into things.
I run up, autoattack (seem to remember reading that opening with SS could mess up your wf and give the OH the benefit or something), SoE, wf, GoA, SS, then start my shock cycles. I also blow trinkets/haste pot/drums/heroism off the first 5 seconds of most fights as well, so i like to get all the buffs up since SoE/GoA/WFT scale so well with the haste I'm giving the group.
#6856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Originally Posted by Imperator
I'd like to see those numbers replicated on future attempts. Not trying to knock you, especially since you normally play resto, but my guess is that you just hit a pretty lucky streak. That's the wonderful and the terrible thing about Windfury. Sometimes you get lucky at it procs wonderfully and you hit big crits every time. Sometimes it doesn't proc all that well and you get rather mediocre crits. Of course the slumps can be mitigated by rolling with 2.6 speeders and whatnot, but you can still hit huge valleys for certain fights as well as huge peaks.

I've done entire SSC/TK runs where my damage was 100-200/300 DPS off my norm with no changes from the previous week. I'm talking same buffs, personnel, everything equal.

So, I think you'll probably be around 1000-1100 DPS normally (which is still awesome) and you got a nice fight in at 1358. Probably not consistently repeatable with that gear tho.
I seriously doubt that you actually looked at the parse (Malan, did you even?). I had a pretty bad streak on WF crits and SS crits. I'm almost at 33% crit unbuffed, and with kings and lotp I'm around 40. Let's add dual mongoose uptime and I'm closer to 45% than 35%.

I know the nature of procs and specials you use less often can vary alot, but it was clearly not like they were in my favor.

Why can't you use my log that I posted and tell me why we should just brush it off as luck instead of just doing what you're doing now. Implying.

Or, let's just wave it off as a lucky shot so we can make you happy. .

---

Illundai: The only reason I posted here to begin with was because I thought that 1000 DPS was the low end a enh shammy should do at Teron. I'd expect someone who has raided as enhancement up to Teron would have better gear than me, and while I produced 1350 DPS I questioned it - which wasnt very welcome obviously...

Also, just for fun, I plugged my values into Yo!s sim (10 000 hours), and let me see if I got this right:

Buffs and stuff to begin with:
gotw
lotp
FF
EW
Kings
imp might
Misery
SoE - Some other guy eating my SS.
CoE
Maledection
CoR
BS
SA
Commanding Pressence
and a Flask.

Double Mongoose
Hourglass
RED
Earth+Fire

1 AP = 1 EP?
1 EP = 0.3121 DPS (for me)

5% crit = 110 crit rating. Crit has a value of 1.78 for me.

5% = 61.8 EP for me in that case?

61.8 EP = 19.3 DPS? (0.3121 modifier)

Am I off on this? Can you even translate it like this?
If so, that would mean lotp would give me some 20~ DPS. That's not bad, but it's not really close to 100 (in my case).
#6857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
I just entered Kyuki yuor numbers + buffs + debuffs to YO's I also accounts bloodlust time + drums + 40shock/4:32.
1280 DPS w/o searing.

Lotp:
110*1.78 = 195.8ep
195.8 * 0.3121 = 61dps

Luck was +80dps factor.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/08/08 at 7:42 PM.
#6858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
I'm not that great with the tool, but how can you do that?
I just implemented my pure stats, and the buffs that I said in my previous post, and did a 10000 and came out with 1377 DPS, that would disclude any use of drums and bloodlust no?

Would love to know how you can see can add bloodlust and time spent in combat and all that.
#6859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
23:13'10.263 Smallo's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 150 (glancing) (6 resisted)
23:13'20.470 Kyuki's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 621

4:42 - 10s = 4min32s
Bloodlust is 40s
Drums...

You can calculate avarage haste and put it to haste box.(its not best way model it but its do the job)
#6860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Oki, did you then do DPS over a course of 4.32 in the sim?

And
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Lotp:
110*1.78 = 195.8ep
195.8 * 0.3121 = 61dps
Thanks, obvious mistake on my math there...
#6861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Okey, you can't do it for a 4.32 min duration, I get it now... Sorry.

Is my math wrong if Heroism of 4.32 min is 8.4% average Haste?
#6862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
I tryed do my best to emulate short fight with CD usage + buff modelling.

Edit: 40 / 272 * 0.4 = 5.9%
#6863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Did another sim for DPS, added exactly what I had buffwise in the raid, and removed what I didnt have.
Added exact value for my stats.

If heroism comes out as 8.4% average at 4.32 min fight I came out with 1438 DPS and I did not add the Drums haste.

Remove Searing Totem and I come out with 1371 DPS.

Luck factor was -12 DPS.
#6864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
What exactly are you discussing right now? I can't believe what I'm seeying.

First of all, modelling a xx:xx duration fight with the sim, including haste and all of that is never going to be accurate. It's a moot point to say: "HAH THE SIM SAYS I DID TOO LITTLE OR TOO MUCH DPS!".
Second of all, whats the big deal? He did 1400 dps with his crappy gear, good for him. He had buffs you didn't have perhaps, he had debuffs you didn't have perhaps. His WWS is tainted maybe, who knows. It's hardly relevant to anything to just start analyzing his WWS or his theoretical DPS. What IS relevant is to ask what he did different from you perhaps.

Next to all of that, I have a hard time believing 5% crit is only 60 DPS. For me, having LOTP or not having LOTP is huge.
#6865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Aye, my formula was off again...

Redid it again, and came out with 1350 sharp without Searing totem and no drums.

Am I right now? Sounds like I was close to Sim value on this fight then.
#6866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Illundai, I'm discussing about myself. Was me who did the 1400 DPS with my crappy gear...

I just want to know why it was brushed off as luck, and that's all.

Also, Lotp gave me those value. Obviously I do 1k less DPS than you on Teron Gorefiend. I'm sure lotp gives you a higher DPS value.
#6867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Kyuki
I seriously doubt that you actually looked at the parse (Malan, did you even?)
Yes, I did. And I said as much up above. I compared it to several of my own, and stated my conclusions.

which wasnt very welcome obviously...
Welcome had nothing to do with it. You stated that you had a DPS value which I thought was odd because it was above my own averages, and minus 1-2 items of gear I'd say that on average I out gear your enhancement set. Thats why we asked for the WWS parse. And lo and behold, your initial figure was wrong.

Nobody is attacking you here, but you're being overly defensive.


By the way, you didn't have any drums at all on that parse, so drop those out of your theoretical numbers from the sim.
Kyuki - WWS
#6868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I wasn't talking about just you, there were plenty of people who couldn't believe you would do 1400 DPS. I'm pretty sure I did 1400 with the kind of gear you're wearing too. I switched to Enhancement after being Resto for a looooong time after killing Illidan, wearing Tier 4 and I did 1200 dps on Teron multiple times.
#6869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
I noticed that the parse didnt show the drums aswell, but I really remember getting it, but I probably did at some other point during the raid in that case...

I might come out as overly defensive, but come on, the only reason I posted was to say that I thought that 1k DPS seems to be on the low end for a raiding Enh shammy on Teron. I then said how much DPS I created with my not up to par gear as a example to why I thought so.

Every direction after that was on how "rediculous" my statement was. Is it so strange that I go defensive mode then when getting attacked on something I didnt tried to point at (Even if it may have looked like it, first point still stands).
#6870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Kyuki
I noticed that the parse didnt show the drums aswell, but I really remember getting it, but I probably did at some other point during the raid in that case...

I might come out as overly defensive, but come on, the only reason I posted was to say that I thought that 1k DPS seems to be on the low end for a raiding Enh shammy on Teron. I then said how much DPS I created with my not up to par gear as a example to why I thought so.

Every direction after that was on how "rediculous" my statement was. Is it so strange that I go defensive mode then when getting attacked on something I didnt tried to point at (Even if it may have looked like it, first point still stands).
First of all, you are NOT the fury. There's a guy in my guild that runs an alt elemental shammy and he brought it into TK the other week with nothing but Kara gear and out-dpsed everyone but the rogues and I.

Second of all, nobody is knocking you at all. In fact, doing anywhere near that DPS on Teron (whom I haven't gotten to yet) is spectacular. Congrats!

Third of all, your assertion was that 1000 DPS was the "low" end for DPS on Teron. You then used your own experience as justification for that assertion. Well, everyone else knows what they did on him and obviously it was around what you were, but with better gear. Thus the reasonable conclusion that you had a fairly lucky streak going, especially since you yourself said that you were undergeared for the attempt. Your attempt got critiqued because it was what we had to go on.

There really isn't a "low" end for any fight. There's going to be enhancement shamans in BT pimping 1.5 speed OH daggers and with +hit gems all throughout their gear. For the people that follow the advice on this site maybe 1000 DPS is low, tho I would guess anything 1000+ is good for anyone making the attempt considering that most people are going to vary wildly on gear even when attempting Teron.

Finally, chill out bro! Obviously you know what you're doing to pimp that much DPS on Teron, luck or no. Thanks for making the Enhance Shammy population proud and smoke a bowl or two so next time when you throw up a post you don't freak out when someone doesn't slobber all over how swell it was.
#6871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Wait, you start in with DPS BEFORE you drop totems? What's your reasoning behind that?
My advice there was tuned to a 5-man instance. If you're moving quickly from pull to pull, yes, I do Stormstrike before I hit totems. In a raid, it depends. Do I have time to set up (e.g. Illidan)? Then of course I drop my totems first. If not, I may drop my totems on the run in if positioning dictates that I can (e.g. Hydross, where it's beneficial, or Naj'entus, where it doesn't matter) or I may wait until I'm on top of the boss before I drop totems (e.g. Archimonde, where I am worried about getting in the right position first). Obviously, I'll also open with FS if that's a smart idea. Overall, though, supposing we're talking about the last case, where you can either start DPS *or* drop totems, I definitely think it makes sense to at least get your autoattack going because it will be doing damage during the 4x1.5s GCDs where you're dropping totems, and I guarantee that the impact of you getting 4 white attacks and a possible WF proc is greater than the impact of that last totem being up slightly later. I have one key bound to "/cast Stormstrike /startattack", so I usually do open with Stormstrike before I even autoattack.
Originally Posted by Dukanull
I run up, autoattack (seem to remember reading that opening with SS could mess up your wf and give the OH the benefit or something)
My understanding is that if you turn on autoattack when you're not in range, you will attack first with the OH and if you are running two 2.6 speed weapons that gives your OH more WF procs over time. Stormstrike should not have this problem unless you use it when you're not in range (in which case autoattack would still have the problem).
#6872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Ahh, O_O

I still think 1k DPS is the lower end of what a enh shammy should do at Teron. :P
#6873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
1k DPS seems like a reasonable low end for Gorefiend to me, assuming you're not getting a free ride and are at a reasonable gear level given that your guild is at Teron.

Looking at my IM logs to my friend, on Jan 22nd I managed 1612 DPS, and I don't think my gear is that great. Buffs besides my own were BS, ret paladin, and 1 drums use, and I was twisting. I don't know what I got last week, but it was probably in the neighborhood of 1400 I'd guess. Didn't do Gorefiend this week.

Not that any of this really matters, but I wouldn't crucify the guy for suggesting that 1k DPS is a good floor on that particular fight.

Last edited by Rob : 02/08/08 at 10:51 PM.
#6874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
OK, here's about the only relevant 2.4 change to our DPS:
Warriors
* Flurry will properly refresh if a crit occurs with 1 charge left.

When PTRs come up, we need to ensure that applies to us as well.
#6875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
* Call of Thunder: (Rank 5) now gives 5% critical strike chance.
Is this a typo?
#6876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Uh, no. Call of Thunder increases the crit strike chance of LB and CL. Its not a typo, its a reference to a bug where Call of Thunder was giving incorrect values of crit on the last rank.
#6877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
Well, that's depressing that we don't get any real impacts. Obviously, the only spec I've ever played is enhance thanks to this thread!

Last edited by frozndevl : 02/09/08 at 1:32 AM.
#6878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan
Uh, no. Call of Thunder increases the crit strike chance of LB and CL. Its not a typo, its a reference to a bug where Call of Thunder was giving incorrect values of crit on the last rank.
The bug that has been in the game since release day as far as I'm aware, or at least the 1.X shaman "patches"
#6879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
well

The lack of changes is very disheartening.

We don't even want much as a class/spec, in PvE, we are doing fine. Just maybe some PvP love or some better itemization.

I don't even see any Sunwell weapons for us, unless one of those hammers will be slow and mean.
#6880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
I think there is one axe among them, praying it will be good one Also kinda disheartened to see that flurry bug only mentioned under warriors.
#6881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Toastradamus
Bink: Not that it makes much difference, but I'm pretty sure the 6% has been there since shamans have had talents. Granted, that's only what, a couple of weeks earlier than release day, but hey, anal is the new hip, right?

Regarding Sunwell weapons: the picture on mmo-champion shows 4 one-hand maces and 3 fist weapons, any of which could possibly be useful to us. That pic shows 0 one-hand axes though, and 4 one-hand swords and 7 (!) daggers. Yay.
#6882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
Hard to go back to place you didn't come from, however, post removed due to "General Idiocy".

Last edited by frozndevl : 02/09/08 at 1:28 PM.
#6883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Ah I knew I was missing something on that patch note.

As far as changes, this isn't much of a boost, but I'm going to dump my elemental points into ancestral healing for arena. Less chance SR is dispelled...I guess that is a win.
#6884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by frozndevl
No one-handed axes would be unfortunate for orcs because of the racial. And it's disappointing in terms of us not receiving any buffs, at least we weren't nerfed. I am still eagerly awaiting what other enhancements (pun intended) we get for WOTLK and what it will do to the TC.
Oh, i thought that 2h axe was 1-handed

Sigh, i don't get what blizzard item balancer is thinking First with Illidan they give him Legendary DW and then a dagger? Instead of that useless dagger (as i bet all rogues want legendaries) could have put an axe easily. Now this with no 1h axe
#6885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
I am having horrible trinket luck.

Right now I am using Bloodlust Brooch and Bladefist's Breadth.

I just got the Romulo trinket and was wondering if it would be better dps than the newbie Breadth.
#6886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
Romulo's trinket sucks balls. It's never worth considering for an enhancement shaman. [Bladefist's Breadth] is good to start. but you should try to get [Hourglass of the Unraveller], [Abacus of Violent Odds] or [Darkmoon Card: Crusade].

And reading the first post should give you this answer, to...

Regarding the patch notes, i will do random vashj runs then again every week, going straight for her. Chest, finger, mace and "our" belt are worthy that effort of ~ 1h raiding (include 2 vorthex, selling for ~ 2.000 on our server should pay the repair bill for all attendies.

Last edited by Myul : 02/09/08 at 2:50 AM.
#6887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
I have crappy luck on hourglass and abacus. I know the romulo trinket sucks, but the breadth isn't even on the list so I wasn't 100% sure.
#6888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
(( 26 * CritRating ) + ( 200 * 15 / 90 )) = 85
Slightly better then the vanilla trinkets.
#6889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Okay, thanks Myul. Just D/E the vial glass =/
#6890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas


How do these scale with EP? I know my expertise AEP value is over 3.1, so 44 expertise would be over 130 AEP mark, haste a lot lower, but haste trinket has 440 AP maximum proc that we could fully stack it up in 10 seconds without any problems... Proc, slam stormstrike, some lucky WF proc and it could be up in 7-8 sec... worst case scenario, thats 10 seconds full uptime of 440 AP, and 1-10 would be average, so around 220.... means it would give somewhere around 330ish AP on average during proc, only thing we should calculate is proc rate...

My haste is (from top of my head) rated at around 1.7 EP (might be wrong), so 54 should be around 90 EP, + average on that proc... They seem about equal on first glance, but then mobs cant parry from behind etc, so expertise might lose a bit here....
#6891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by oglas


How do these scale with EP? I know my expertise AEP value is over 3.1, so 44 expertise would be over 130 AEP mark, haste a lot lower, but haste trinket has 440 AP maximum proc that we could fully stack it up in 10 seconds without any problems... Proc, slam stormstrike, some lucky WF proc and it could be up in 7-8 sec... worst case scenario, thats 10 seconds full uptime of 440 AP, and 1-10 would be average, so around 220.... means it would give somewhere around 330ish AP on average during proc, only thing we should calculate is proc rate...

My haste is (from top of my head) rated at around 1.7 EP (might be wrong), so 54 should be around 90 EP, + average on that proc... They seem about equal on first glance, but then mobs cant parry from behind etc, so expertise might lose a bit here....
Expertise rating score of 3+ EP is assuming that you are behind the boss already. It doubles when fighting trash from front. All 3 trinkets are very good. The one with expertise and a proc will beat DST if ppm is 1+. Other 2 come ahead of Berserkers Call (most likely) so as soon as you will get one it will end up in your trinket slot.
#6892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kint
I'm glad there are no axes seen yet!! Orc Racial is imba.
#6893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
This is not the place to whine/complain about 2.4.
Take your tears elsewhere.
#6894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3robertsmb
So, ive seen some variance in the capabilities of the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

I currently have Berzerkers Call, Bloodlust Brooch and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Which trinks should I use for the best overall effect?

Would Darkmoon Card be better for boss fights where you can keep the 120 AP up? or is the click effect of the bloodlust every 2 mins superior??
#6895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Devnex
Originally Posted by robertsmb
So, ive seen some variance in the capabilities of the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

I currently have Berzerkers Call, Bloodlust Brooch and the Darkmoon Card: Crusade.

Which trinks should I use for the best overall effect?

Would Darkmoon Card be better for boss fights where you can keep the 120 AP up? or is the click effect of the bloodlust every 2 mins superior??
They both have similar EP values (118 versus 120) but the bloodlust allows you to control when you get that burst of AP. My personal preference would be to cascade the Zerkers/Bloodlust in fights where Heroism plays a large part of your dps (Rage, Anetheron, Gorefiend, RoS) and use the crusade for extended fights where you're likely to see more than 2 of the two minute cooldowns coming up (Council, Al'ar, Vashj, Kael, Bloodboil etc).

Last edited by Devnex : 02/09/08 at 11:04 AM. Reason: clarification
#6896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Originally Posted by oglas


How do these scale with EP? I know my expertise AEP value is over 3.1, so 44 expertise would be over 130 AEP mark, haste a lot lower, but haste trinket has 440 AP maximum proc that we could fully stack it up in 10 seconds without any problems... Proc, slam stormstrike, some lucky WF proc and it could be up in 7-8 sec... worst case scenario, thats 10 seconds full uptime of 440 AP, and 1-10 would be average, so around 220.... means it would give somewhere around 330ish AP on average during proc, only thing we should calculate is proc rate...
If the stacking mechanism of the proc is the same as DMC:Crusade, then it will take a little bit longer to ramp up to 440 AP, as extra swings from WF don't add stacks.
The expertise "tanking" trinket has a higher EP value than Beserker's Call... very interesting indeed.
#6897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
That expertise "tanking" trinket would be downright awesome as a secondary PvP trinket (i.e. in addition to your [Medallion of the Alliance]). To me, expertise seems like the best use of PvP item budget we could ask for -- ensuring that our Stormstrikes and Windfury procs connect is key, and the parry reduction aspect would be get used more than it is in PvE.
#6898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Courtesy WoR:


3 new pieces added to T6, obtainable from either Sunwell or Badges (we don't know yet).

Boots with an [Inscribed Pyrestone] come in at ~221 EP, ~20 EP above [Softstep Boots of Tracking].
Wrists with a [Bold Crimson Spinel] come in at ~166 EP, ~10 EP above [Insidious Bands].
Belt with a [Bold Crimson Spinel] comes in at ~235 EP, ~5 EP below [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].
If we consider that the [Fists of Mukoa] are about 20 EP better than the [Skyshatter Grips], you would easily be better off to wear T6 to grab the 4-piece bonus, for ~70 EP.

Last edited by Rob : 02/09/08 at 9:13 PM.
#6899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Sure but which of the original 5pc would we wear for the 4th? The helm works if you've had crap luck on the Council helm or are still in line for the CvoS. But after that?
#6900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
[Skyshatter Grips] is the best downgrade, as I tried to imply in my post. They're only a 17 EP loss from [Grips of Damnation], or a 14 EP loss from [Fists of Mukoa].

[Skyshatter Pauldrons] would also be worth switching to, as you lose only 18 EP there from [Shoulderpads of the Stranger].

Everything else is a much larger difference. Of course, as you say, if you haven't gotten a better helm, that's always an option.

Caveat theorycrafter: These numbers are with my own personal EP values and may not apply exactly to everyone else, but I would expect the results to be generally the same.
#6901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hodor
Seeing as how the three new pieces of Tier 6 are properly Itemised, I wonder if they maybe went over the "old" Tier 6 pieces too.

I'm trying to find out, but the PTR isn't quite working for me, maybe if someone else could find out?
#6902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
gloves

He said gloves...
#6903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Expertice

Assuming we will have access to some more expertise, what is the target number for expertise?
#6904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Rob
Courtesy WoR:
3 new pieces added to T6, obtainable from either Sunwell or Badges (we don't know yet).
That looks quite promising, though I'd love to see them replace the mp5 and 2p set bonus with something useful.

Back to my shit DPS. I didn't use flame shock because it wouldn't get it's full 12 second duration and with the limited understanding of debuffs and how they affect the magic DPS I found out that ES would do more damage as a spammer. My focus is to buff the other melee who at the moment are rogues, but we just guilded a new fury warrior and our Egyptian fury warrior got his internet sorted again so hopefully I'll get battle shout back soon. Anyway, because I want to keep WF on their weapons at all times I thought that twisting plus an earth shock would do fairly decent DPS. It seems that was wrong.

I realize I'm losing some dps by not using two shocks, but it should not be anywhere near 200dps with my gear? (that's considering the -100dps by not having battle shout Toots suggested)

I guess I should try to just try to not twist on our next go on Teron and see how that works out. Is it normal to spam fire nova totem whenever it's up and keep searing down when nova is on cooldown, I think I tried this once but scrapped it because I was too tired to be able to keep searing up in between.

Sorry for any bad spelling\grammar, it's 4 in the morning

Last edited by Ardonomus : 02/09/08 at 10:21 PM.
#6905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raziel
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013338.jpg

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013351.jpg

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013447.jpg

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013457.jpg

Chest 389.45
Shoulders 257.44
Legs 398.44
Helm 340.01

Problem is if we can take tokens for this items
#6906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Neithan
To be honest I did find new BoP JC neck interesting as well (stupid Supremus) + onehand healing mace is interesting option for me.
Lets hope that we can pick the rogue set or that "hunter" gear is really good.

Also new LW BoP chest is better than Midnight or SWP rogue/druid token one imo.

Last edited by Neithan : 02/09/08 at 11:05 PM.
#6907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Gehenna
Assuming we will have access to some more expertise, what is the target number for expertise?
There isn't a "target number" just like we don't target a hit number either.

There is a point where additional expertise rating would have extremely diminished returns, however. Against a boss mob, the base dodge chance is 5.40%. Since expertise doesn't round, you need enough expertise to cancel 5.5% dodge, or 22 Expertise. At 3.95 expertise rating/expertise, that's 87 expertise rating.
#6908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shabadu
Originally Posted by Malan
Sure but which of the original 5pc would we wear for the 4th? The helm works if you've had crap luck on the Council helm or are still in line for the CvoS. But after that?
He's saying wear gloves/belt/bracers/boots.

Wow massively beaten. I should stop drinking and posting.
#6909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Does anybody find it funny that our t6 bracers are itemized like generic dps bracers (aka AP instead of strength)? Seems a bit like an oversight.
It's a bit sad to think that hunter gear and enhancement shaman gear are the only types of gear that aren't interchangeable at the loot swap vendor. Apparently, even though strength is one of our main stats, we'll just end up getting stuck with +AP on all our Sunwell gear.
#6910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by Rob
There isn't a "target number" just like we don't target a hit number either.

There is a point where additional expertise rating would have extremely diminished returns, however. Against a boss mob, the base dodge chance is 5.40%. Since expertise doesn't round, you need enough expertise to cancel 5.5% dodge, or 22 Expertise. At 3.95 expertise rating/expertise, that's 87 expertise rating.
this is what i was asking, thanks.
#6911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Solomir
Does anybody find it funny that our t6 bracers are itemized like generic dps bracers (aka AP instead of strength)? Seems a bit like an oversight.
I noticed that too, I was guessing that the itemizer wanted all the new Shaman pieces to have "base stat, sta, int, and two equip bonuses" so they look pretty. It would be nice if they switch it to STR, but it's not a deal-breaker.
It's a bit sad to think that hunter gear and enhancement shaman gear are the only types of gear that aren't interchangeable at the loot swap vendor. Apparently, even though strength is one of our main stats, we'll just end up getting stuck with +AP on all our Sunwell gear.
Let's hope this is an oversight.
#6912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Weem
With all the new gear that will be on the test server and it not being in the Wowhead database (enabling it to show up in Loot Rank), I decided to update my High Raid Loot Comparison spreadsheet for ease in comparing the new items. All gem slots are assumed to be socketed with the gems to maximize the EP value (this includes having the socket bonus added to the stats). Just enter in your EP values and you're good to go. I'll continue to update as more loot is available until it starts showing up on Loot Rank.

bemory23 Profile, bemory23 Details - FileFront.com
#6913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Rob
I noticed that too, I was guessing that the itemizer wanted all the new Shaman pieces to have "base stat, sta, int, and two equip bonuses" so they look pretty. It would be nice if they switch it to STR, but it's not a deal-breaker.

Let's hope this is an oversight.
While it is not deal-breaker it shows trend which we really do not want to see. So far at least our Tier pieces have had strength opposed to AP, and now seems their becoming AP even there is rather troublesome for future if they should continue with this new trend. I seriously hope that oversight will be fixed.
#6914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Audrix
Originally Posted by Solomir
Does anybody find it funny that our t6 bracers are itemized like generic dps bracers (aka AP instead of strength)? Seems a bit like an oversight.
It's a bit sad to think that hunter gear and enhancement shaman gear are the only types of gear that aren't interchangeable at the loot swap vendor. Apparently, even though strength is one of our main stats, we'll just end up getting stuck with +AP on all our Sunwell gear.
New T6 2.4 pieces

Also that the other pieces have haste where the bracers have AP. Maybe it will change before it goes live.
#6915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
[Forest Prowler's Helm] (263) < [Item 'mask of furry hunter' not found!] (307) = [Surestrike Goggles v3.0] (309) < [Cursed Vision of Sargeras] (335) < [Duplicitous Guise] (377)

[Skyshatter Shoulderpads] (192) < [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] (206) < [Item 'shoulderpads of the vehemence' not found!] (256) < [Demontooth Shoulderpads] (264)

[Midnight Chestguard] (308) < [Item 'harness of the carnal instinct' not found!] (317) < [Embrace of the Phoenix] (346) < [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] (388) < [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (389)

[Bow-stitched Leggings] (279) < [Leggings of the Immortal Beast] (303) < [Leggings of the Immortal Night] (391)

[Insidious Bands] (156) < [Skyshatter Wristguards] (169)

[Skyshatter Grips] (174) < [Gloves of the Forest Drifter] (197) < [Grips of Damnation] (198) < [Item 'shadowed gauntles of paroxsym' not found!] (256) < [Item 'flechter's gloves of the phoenix' not found!] (265) < [Item 'gloves of the immortal dusk' not found!] (300)

[Boneweave Girdle] (196) < [Skyshatter Girdle] (244) < [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (248)

[Softstep Boots of Tracking] (210) < [Shadowmaster's Boots] (214) < [Skyshatter Greaves] (220)

[Signet of Primal Wrath] (148) < [Stormrage Signet Ring] (156) < [Hard Khorium Band] (172)

---

There is no way with all that gear avaible for you to not going for the 4 pieces t6 bonus. Those new stuff (especially professions ones) is just to good.

(links for the new items should work in a day or two)
#6916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
So, it's clear the T6 Boots, Belt and Bracers are going to be our best in slot for those (Assuming you don't have the Vashj belt), but what would be the 4th? Is the 4-peice T6 worth those huge downgrades in the other slots?
#6917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genzou
Originally Posted by Paradox
So, it's clear the T6 Boots, Belt and Bracers are going to be our best in slot for those (Assuming you don't have the Vashj belt), but what would be the 4th? Is the 4-peice T6 worth those huge downgrades in the other slots?
Shoulders if you look at the AEP difference, but even with 100% uptime on the 4 set bonus, you loose 2 AEP if you pick Demontooth Shoulderpads. Insignificant ofcourse, so it comes down to wich you get first (provided you have belt/boots/bracers) imo
#6918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Genzou
Shoulders if you look at the AEP difference, but even with 100% uptime on the 4 set bonus, you loose 2 AEP if you pick Demontooth Shoulderpads. Insignificant ofcourse, so it comes down to wich you get first (provided you have belt/boots/bracers) imo
Yes shoulders definitly.

On another note, those Leggings of the Immortal Night are so so amazingly good. If blizzard put class restrictions on the sunwell token drops then we're going to get totally screwed if you look at the current leather vs mail options.
#6919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hodor
Just checked the old Tier 6 stuff on the PTR, and it is still the same as before.
#6920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
This looked interesting - Righteous Weapon Coating - Spells - WOWDB, but of course it comes no way near windfury enchant.
#6921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by Genzou
Shoulders if you look at the AEP difference, but even with 100% uptime on the 4 set bonus, you loose 2 AEP if you pick Demontooth Shoulderpads. Insignificant ofcourse, so it comes down to wich you get first (provided you have belt/boots/bracers) imo
You should not forget, that those EP i used are for my actually gear and with all those haste on the sunwell gear, the haste value should skyrocket to ~ 2.1 ep.

Tier 6 remaining the same is quite annoying, but blizzard didn't removed the spirit from mage gear, that's why i doubt they will remove mp5 from our old items (even if the new parts have none, yay).
#6922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pearl
I have been using an old lootzor link to try and figure out what the best enhancement gear is at the moment. but seeing a couple posts above me ive noticed that it's not so black and white.

Im going to ask it, since i tried using simulators and what not but could not get an anwser, but is there a site or a list that everyone (alot of people) agree on what the best items are for each slot?

lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

this is the link i have been using for some time and i have pretty much collected every number 1 choice according to this. does this list stil stand? (ignoring the weapon/trinket/ring options)
#6923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Pearl
I have been using an old lootzor link to try and figure out what the best enhancement gear is at the moment. but seeing a couple posts above me ive noticed that it's not so black and white.

Im going to ask it, since i tried using simulators and what not but could not get an anwser, but is there a site or a list that everyone (alot of people) agree on what the best items are for each slot?

lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

this is the link i have been using for some time and i have pretty much collected every number 1 choice according to this. does this list stil stand? (ignoring the weapon/trinket/ring options)
Searching the thread ftw... or ftl I guess in this case if you don't bother doing it.

Theres been multiple "definitive" lists posted over the past few pages, theres even a list on Yo's sim.

Laziness is not an excuse :/
#6924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Myul
You should not forget, that those EP i used are for my actually gear and with all those haste on the sunwell gear, the haste value should skyrocket to ~ 2.1 ep.
The more of one stat you have the less profit per additional point of that stat you gain comparing to additional point of ap, exception being armor penetration.
#6925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Originally Posted by Myul
Tier 6 remaining the same is quite annoying, but blizzard didn't removed the spirit from mage gear, that's why i doubt they will remove mp5 from our old items (even if the new parts have none, yay).
It's only the same for now. Remember that the only spec's gear that was mentioned in the initial push of the PTR was ret pally. Considering we've probably got at least a month of PTR to go, it's possible that we can still get some love.
Who knows. We might get some REAL set bonuses.
#6926SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Myul
Very nice of you to put the list up, as I wasn't looking forward to taking the time to manually input all the values and calculate. Thanks much!
#6927SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
[Righteous Weapon Coating]
This might change what air totem rogues want.
#6928SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
EP for JC neck

I calculated ~T6 level gear EP for the new Jewelcrafting neck (didn't see it listed, forgive me if its already been posted).

Link: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...elringneck.jpg

Choker of Endless Nightmares (161.49) < Hardened Khorium Choker (187.28).

Let me know if im wrong here and ill amend the post.
#6929SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Guess my plans to go for the 4pc t6 bonus were short-lived. Doesn't seem worth sacrificing the large gains you can get on the hand or shoulder slot. And I'm a bit depressed that my Cursed Vision has been dethroned already. I <3 the blindfold!
#6930SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Weem
Rejoice!!

http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...gvengeance.jpg
#6931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Weem
Was about to post this, excellent news for us. There is also a matching MH (apparently).

Does anyone know if that ancient bug with the +hit talent not working with fist weps still exsists?
#6932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
That's news to me, I've never heard of that bug.
#6933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Holy shit, I just shouted in joy at the sight of that offhand.

Perfect speed, high DPS, high top damage and argueably the best stats for a t6 shaman on it. Not to mention 2 sockets, with a decent socketbonus and a BLUE socket! Something to dump a blue gem in.

Jesus, finally they make a Shaman weapon... Rising Tide was a start, but meh. Although, again from trash.. so perhaps lower iLevel again than KJ weapons, thus inferior yet again?
#6934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Razzan
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
#6935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Razzan
Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
I don't see how that's relevant or how any attempt to answer it would be anything other than speculation. However, I'll say that clearly the weapon is only useful for Fury warriors, Enhancement shamans, and trispec Hemo rogues.
#6936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?
#6937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Razzan
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
There are 3 fist weapons weapon models files, set and offhand.


Originally Posted by Illundai
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?

While i've never played DW Fury, from dps warrior thread it seems that at t6 level warriors prefer slow offhand.
#6938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Hm, our 2 Fury Warriors used the 1.5s offhand from trash until they both a Warglaive, maybe I should've shouted at them :o
#6939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?
Slow is slightly better due to the WW change. Before that, it didn't matter at all. Even now, it's nowhere near the benefit we see from using a slow OH.
#6940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
I am really quite shocked that there are upgrades in almost every slot (pleasantly surprised).

I haven't seen a new Totem though - seems bizarre that I will be using a Badge item with my Sunwell gear.
#6941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dr_AllCOM3
Originally Posted by Razzan
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
I'd like to have that weapon . Slow is nice with good stats.
#6942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Honestly, I wish they'd remove racial abilities that affect weapons. I hate feeling like I'm hindering myself by not using an axe.
#6943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Low Life
From the point of view of a shaman who's probably not going to be stepping into a 25-man dungeon before Wrath of the Lich King, the 2.4 patch seems to be bringing a lot of nice gear. The leather shoulders from heroic Kael'thas are better than Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless from Kara (about 150ep with my values vs 140ep), the BoE ring seems to be the best one before the TK version of Kael (around 120ep), and if I didn't do any horrible miscalculations the BoE leather gloves come out at incredible 250ep, which is a lot more than the ep of the best gloves in the game currently on my values, Gloves of the Searing Grip at 160ep. Add the possibility that the Surestrike goggles V3.0 schematic won't be BoP and I'm getting a huge boost in my gear. Then again, people might be charging ridiculous amounts for Sunmotes which would slow the gearing down, but that's only a minor problem.
#6944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
You can forget about getting any Sunmotes anytime soonish, with the amount of upgrades available from them id say itll be sometime before they are sold if ever (wotlk will most likely hit before that).
#6945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jyca
Originally Posted by Razzan
I felt relieved with that new fist weapon , it looks awesome. Could it be that blizz made this fist weapon ''set'' primarily for fury warriors tho?
I don't see how it's possible to make a weapon more desirable for a fury warrior than a shaman other than slapping a class restriction on it.
#6946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Razzan
Idd, class restriction would totally screw us over. I dont want to see that when 2.4 hits the live servers tbh . Anxious to see the Mainhand version of that fist weapon aswell.
#6947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Hey seriously. Quit the 2.4 talk unless it specifically relates to Enhancement issues, ie, gear analysis. Take your warrior talk, your drop rates, etc etc to the 2.4 thread.
#6948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pebblecrusher
Been reading as many of the posts on this thread as I could, but still a bit confused about a weapon choice. Read one post that states that The Decapitator is a good MH and Fool's Bane makes a good OH. Not a problem, I can see that. But I also have Malchazeen. Using Fool's Bane MH and Malchazeen OH yields more AP while only reducing the upper range of dmg by 20 or so. Then use WF and FT.

Agree?
#6949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
You need to re-read the entire section of the first post on Windfury.
#6950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
Run Yo's sim instead of asking here, I can bet its been asked before so search would also be a good idea but you really should get used to running the sim since the EP values will change over time and you shouldnt rely on the ones listed in the OP other than as a general guideline.

Oh btw: to really consider using fast OH with FT you really should have a 1.5 or faster weapon. Malchazeen is def. too slow to really make this an option.
#6951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
Run Yo's sim instead of asking here, I can bet its been asked before so search would also be a good idea but you really should get used to running the sim since the EP values will change over time and you shouldnt rely on the ones listed in the OP other than as a general guideline.

Oh btw: to really consider using fast OH with FT you really should have a 1.5 or faster weapon. Malchazeen is def. too slow to really make this an option.
#6952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pebblecrusher
Yes section 1 says WF is best on both weapons. Yet section 3.2.2 says FT is better on a fast weapon such as Malchazeen. Figured the specific info was better than the generalized.

I'll look into the sim. Thanks.
#6953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
No, 3.2.2 says that IF you are using a green OH, you might be able to temporarily replace it with an epic quality dagger using Flametongue. The same section says that this should not be a permanent weapon set up, its a stop gap measure if you're just having shitty luck with drops.

In other news, this looks pretty decent.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg
Using the T6 values that looks to be better than the DST at about 178 EP.
[e] see below

Last edited by Malan : 02/11/08 at 12:36 AM.
#6954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pebblecrusher
Valid points.

Edit:
So far the simulator shows higher DPS using Decapitator MH and Fool's Bane OH using WF on both. I set up using the simplest scenario. Basically had to. My trinkets are not listed and neither are the enchants I have or can afford atm. Very nice tool.

Last edited by Pebblecrusher : 02/11/08 at 12:19 AM.
#6955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan
No, 3.2.2 says that IF you are using a green OH, you might be able to temporarily replace it with an epic quality dagger using Flametongue. The same section says that this should not be a permanent weapon set up, its a stop gap measure if you're just having shitty luck with drops.

In other news, this looks pretty decent.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg
Using the T6 values that looks to be better than the DST at about 178 EP.
Not to mention it seems to drop inside Heroic Magister's Terrace! Could save some DKP by passing on Madness afterall :-)
#6956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Oof ok I take that back. The DST value I was looking at used the T5 (original) EP values. Using T6 values the DST is 187 EP. So at 178 the Shard of Contempt is still pretty damn good, and could be considered a valid side-grade quality item I suppose. Not best in slot though.
Its late and I'm dumb.

Last edited by Malan : 02/11/08 at 12:56 AM.
#6957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
Coming from a guy who is still doing pug Gruul raids for DST (Saw it drop 6 times.. lost all 6 even with rolling 95 in one of them)... LFG Heroic Magister's Terrace.
#6958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Illundai
Not to mention it seems to drop inside Heroic Magister's Terrace! Could save some DKP by passing on Madness afterall :-)
Are you sure that's where it drops? I see it in screenshots with Sunwell boss loot.


Originally Posted by Malan
Oof ok I take that back. The DST value I was looking at used the T5 (original) EP values. Using T6 values the DST is 187 EP. So at 178 the Shard of Contempt is still pretty damn good, and could be considered a valid side-grade quality item I suppose. Not best in slot though.
What is the correct equation for determining the proc? The way I calculated it (which very well could be wrong) shows it better than DST.
#6959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
.... Ok apparently I can't read. I calculated that trinket as though it were an On Use with a 2min cooldown. Oops.
#6960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Bragor
Well let me do the math :

44 Expertise Rating
Chance on hit 230 AP for 20 seconds.

Assuming internal cooldown of 45 seconds (General Rule) & an expertise value of 3.18 per rating.

(44x3.18) + ((230x20)/45)) = 139.92 + 102.22 = 242.14 EP

Am I doing something wrong here Oo ?

Let me redo the math but valuing the expertise as solid hit instead of expertise seeing in most cases we gonna be behind the mob :

(44x1.69) + 102.22 = 176.58 EP <== This is still good.

Also did the liberty of running Yo's Sim again with my current stats and having the hours set to 10'000 to get accurate numbers :

Attack Power = 1
Crit rating = 1.81
Hit rating = 1.68
Haste rating = 1.91
Armor penetration = 0.3
Strength = 2.2
Agility = 1.76
Expertise rating = 3.21

Last edited by Bragor : 02/11/08 at 1:11 AM. Reason: Added a bit more info
#6961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
You had the same idea that I did Bragor. According to the calc I did, just to be exactly as good at the DST it would need an internal cooldown of 2 minutes.
#6962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Weem
Are you sure that's where it drops? I see it in screenshots with Sunwell boss loot.
iLevel 115 = "other bosses" in Heroic Magister's Terrace. Sick.
#6963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Rob
iLevel 115 = "other bosses" in Heroic Magister's Terrace. Sick.
That is fantastic.
#6964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Bragor
I know it's not that confirmed but lets look at the other trinket found "Blackened Naaru Silver" Linky

54 Passive Haste rating.
Chance on hit to enter a battle stance in which on every hit you gain 44 Attack power stacking to 10 times. Expires in 20 seconds.

The Haste part is easy to calculate : (54x1.82) = 98.28 EP
The AP Part Is split into two parts : 1. Takes the Form of a linear curve.
2. Fully stacked & lasting to the end of the duration.

1st Part : Assume that you are dual wielding 2.8 speed weapons, They will go down due to passive haste & flurry to 1.9 speed. Per hit you gain 2 stacks. So.. 1.9 speed weapons hitting at the same time this means 2 hits per 1.9 seconds which means the durations of this phase is 9.5 Seconds.

2nd Part : (20s - 9.5) = 10.5 Seconds duration.

Assuming that the CD on the proc is 45 seconds also, Calculating the AP value part : ((138.95x9.5)+(440x10.5))/45 = (1320+ 4620)/45 = 132 EP.

Final Number is : 98.28 + 132 = 230.28 EP.

Am I still doing something wrong ? Oo

Or, Are the new trinkets too OPed ?

Last edited by Bragor : 02/11/08 at 2:04 AM. Reason: Added link
#6965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ruga
I got reeeeeeeeeeeeeally happy in my pants when I saw this Sunwell Plateau Trash drop:

Mounting Vengeance - Items - WOWDB


Mounting Vengeance
Binds when picked up
Off Hand Fist Weapon
196 - 365 Damage Speed 2.60
(107.9 damage per second)
+22 Stamina
Yellow Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 Strength
Durability 75 / 75
Requires Level 70
Equip: Increases attack power by 46.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 140 of your opponent's armor.
#6966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
How much of an upgrade is Mounting Vengeance over the S3 weapons? I guess the sockets are what really tip it, but the S3 weps have a lot of stats.
#6967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Good for you non-orcs, but what about us orcish shamans?

Anyways, concerning trinkets remember that you are comparing Gruul trinket to Sunwell trinket, it should be miles ahead. Just that other trinkets on the way are not that suitable for us. Also expertise has i think taken blizzard by suprise just how powerful it is.
#6968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Akkron
Originally Posted by Atren
Good for you non-orcs, but what about us orcish shamans?
Assuming T6 EP values and 1 OH DPS = 3.70 EP, lets compare the Vengeful Cleaver and Mounting Vengeance with the Orc racial expertise factored in.

Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver
(103.1 damage per second) - (381.47 EP)
+30 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 8 (0.51% @ L70). - (13.52 EP)
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 21 - (36.54 EP)
Equip: Increases attack power by 34. (34 EP)
Equip: Your attacks ignore 49 of your opponent's armor. (17.15 EP)
20 Expertise Rating (Orcish Racial) - (63.6 EP)
Total = 546.28 Offhand EP

Now if we only itemize Expertise at half its normal value due to it only affecting one hand (??) - (31.8 EP) which would result in a total EP of 514.48.

Mounting Vengeance
(107.9 damage per second) - (399.23 EP)
+22 Stamina
Yellow Socket (Assuming +10 STR Gem) - (22 EP)
Blue Socket (Assuming +10 STR Gem) - (22 EP)
Socket Bonus: +3 Strength (Not Applicable)
Equip: Increases attack power by 46. (46 EP)
Equip: Your attacks ignore 140 of your opponent's armor. (49 EP)
Total = 538.23 Offhand EP

Now the question is, would we value expertise rating so high when the racial expertise only affects the item in one hand?
#6969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Asirae
Just wanted to confirm some tests in-game with 3 monster types vs. my enhancement shaman. Also weapon choices in general based on pure dps and speed.

Weapons index for enhancement spec shamans:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Off-hand imbue tests for enhancement spec shamans:
Offhand Buff Matrix Raiding Enhancements - Shaman


Thanks to Malan and Disquette for all the input. Made my life easier.


- Asirae

Last edited by Asirae : 02/11/08 at 4:53 AM.
#6970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Expertise value is 3.18 when hitting mob at behind and 6.36 if you hitting at front.



Edit: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ofcontempt.jpg new dst.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/11/08 at 6:28 AM.
#6971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3kiyea
With regards to Mongoose. Is the haste portion of the buff a function similar to flurry or haste stats? Or more like Seal of the Crusader which reduces swing speed while reducing damage done. For a net of the same dps. Though with that sort of haste buff you lose dps on yellow damage.

According to wowwiki it functions in the 2nd manner. Making it a negative for the most part, but in particular for shaman.

Yet all the theorycrafting I've been able to find on Mongoose either glosses over the haste portion of the effect or assumes it to be a positive.

So how exactly does the haste function of mongoose work?
#6972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Bragor
I know it's not that confirmed but lets look at the other trinket found "Blackened Naaru Silver" Linky

54 Passive Haste rating.
Chance on hit to enter a battle stance in which on every hit you gain 44 Attack power stacking to 10 times. Expires in 20 seconds.

The Haste part is easy to calculate : (54x1.82) = 98.28 EP
The AP Part Is split into two parts : 1. Takes the Form of a linear curve.
2. Fully stacked & lasting to the end of the duration.

1st Part : Assume that you are dual wielding 2.8 speed weapons, They will go down due to passive haste & flurry to 1.9 speed. Per hit you gain 2 stacks. So.. 1.9 speed weapons hitting at the same time this means 2 hits per 1.9 seconds which means the durations of this phase is 9.5 Seconds.

2nd Part : (20s - 9.5) = 10.5 Seconds duration.

Assuming that the CD on the proc is 45 seconds also, Calculating the AP value part : ((138.95x9.5)+(440x10.5))/45 = (1320+ 4620)/45 = 132 EP.

Final Number is : 98.28 + 132 = 230.28 EP.

Am I still doing something wrong ? Oo

Or, Are the new trinkets too OPed ?
To be fair, generally speaking 20 sec duration procs/uses are on a 2 minute CD. They wouldn't (I don't think) put a 45 sec CD on a 20 sec duration buff, you'd have a very high uptime.

Also, in the calculation you could pretty much always assume that during the 9.5 seconds of "part 1 stacking time" that there will be a SS used, so knock off 1.9 secs there for the 2 instant attacks.
#6973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by kiyea
With regards to Mongoose. Is the haste portion of the buff a function similar to flurry or haste stats? Or more like Seal of the Crusader which reduces swing speed while reducing damage done. For a net of the same dps. Though with that sort of haste buff you lose dps on yellow damage.

According to wowwiki it functions in the 2nd manner. Making it a negative for the most part, but in particular for shaman.

Yet all the theorycrafting I've been able to find on Mongoose either glosses over the haste portion of the effect or assumes it to be a positive.

So how exactly does the haste function of mongoose work?
Mongoose is a flat multiplier haste effect, reduces your swing time by 2%. There is no damage reduction.
#6974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai
Perfect speed, high DPS, high top damage and argueably the best stats for a t6 shaman on it. Not to mention 2 sockets, with a decent socketbonus and a BLUE socket! Something to dump a blue gem in.

Jesus, finally they make a Shaman weapon... Rising Tide was a start, but meh. Although, again from trash.. so perhaps lower iLevel again than KJ weapons, thus inferior yet again?
DPS is all that matters, damage range doesn't matter at all, IIRC.

I don't think trash loot has to be inferior, look at [Band of Devastation]'s ilvl. Same as Illy/archy loot.

Originally Posted by Joy
I haven't seen a new Totem though - seems bizarre that I will be using a Badge item with my Sunwell gear.
Sup [Totem of Healing Rains]. Totems are usually a buff to one of you spells so unless they make a copy of an old one(there are a few) and bump it's stats from ilvl, you are stuck with it.
#6975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jingizu
I thought about applying the new enchant "Deathfrost" on my offhand. Supports the MT and he still has the possibility to get Mongoose on his weapon for even better avoidance stats. Any thoughts on that idea?
#6976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Asirae
Weapons index for enhancement spec shamans:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
Several of the weapons in that list don't at all agree with the testing that's been done here, particularly having the S3 weapons below Rod of the Sun King.
#6977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3berg
Some of the new loot looks really great but it is largely leather. I think that even hunters will be asking for leather drops this time around.
#6978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Taowth
In regards to the numbers people have done for the 2 new trinkets you both ask if you're missing something, and I see something big missing. The proc rate. Obviously we dont know it yet, but you cant just throw out numbers like that without even having proc rate as a variable (thus since its unknown the equation should end up with a (EP x PR) or something). You can guess a cooldown but even if its cooldown was 1 second what would it matter if the proc rate is 1%? Or 0.2 PPM? Etc.
Obviously we wont be seeing exact numbers without someone testing with it (hope my char gets copied over soon) with procwatch, but its still possible to boil the equation down to something x proc rate which can then put in multiple guesses of said proc rate to come with a decent range of numbers.
#6979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Taowth
Yea Berg i'm pretty much resigned to the fact blizzard wont be making non-set mail that appeals directly to enhancement, and that we're stuck with leather or hunter optimized stuff (which isnt bad once getting desired hit #s). Though if what they're trying with sunwell to where you can supposedly trade one "spec" of loot for another spec of same type, we could see some of the stuff being put in, and while it could potentially turn bad pitting every class against other specs (healing cloth taken by casters for a "respec" of the loot) it has some decent potential.
#6980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Well of course, and we stated exactly as such. The values we figured on the prior page all assumed that the proc rate would be similar to that of the DST. If that holds true, then as we illustrated the Shard of Contempt absolutely blows away the DST if it has anything less than a 2min cooldown. Hell, even if the proc rate is low with a 1 or 2 min internal cooldown its still going to be one of the best available trinkets. Just the EP value of the Expertise alone places it at 140 EP. It only needs to gain an additional 48 EP from the proc to place it on par with the DST.
#6981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Akkron
Now if we only itemize Expertise at half its normal value due to it only affecting one hand (??) - (31.8 EP) which would result in a total EP of 514.48.
MH does 100% damage. OH does 50% damage. 50%/150% = 1/3. Therefore it should be valued at 1/3 the full amount.
#6982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Hedin
PTR 2.4
I was looking at Epix which are changable at vendor Yrma (Sun's Reach Harbor) and found that there are NO Hunter/Enh Shaman Mail at all! I think that Blizzad just forgot to add them...

Last edited by Hedin : 02/11/08 at 1:58 PM.
#6983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tsalrioth
Originally Posted by Raut
DPS is all that matters, damage range doesn't matter at all, IIRC.

I don't think trash loot has to be inferior, look at [Band of Devastation]'s ilvl. Same as Illy/archy loot.


Sup [Totem of Healing Rains]. Totems are usually a buff to one of you spells so unless they make a copy of an old one(there are a few) and bump it's stats from ilvl, you are stuck with it.


Didn't Bliz acknowledge this as a bug? And that Band was supposed to be from illidan along with the other rings as a quest turnin, but they messed up? Im pretty sure that the ilvl will be less then end boss, and just gotta hope one the the remaining weps is slow, and from em.
#6984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emaze
Just an FYI for folks excited to buy s3 weps tommorow. If you have access to Sunwell trash, there is a new 2.6 wep offhand that is BETTER then s3. It's called mounting Vengeance.

196-365 damage 2.6 speed
107.9 dps
22 sta
yellow socket
blue socket
(bonus) 3 str
46ap
140 armor pen


not to bad imo
#6985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by Emaze
Just an FYI for folks excited to buy s3 weps tommorow. If you have access to Sunwell trash, there is a new 2.6 wep offhand that is BETTER then s3. It's called mounting Vengeance.

196-365 damage 2.6 speed
107.9 dps
22 sta
yellow socket
blue socket
(bonus) 3 str
46ap
140 armor pen


not to bad imo
You mean the one that has been posted in the previous page already?

Read before you reply please, especially with something that is front page news on WoR, MMO champion and the 2.4 topic.
#6986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Originally Posted by Illundai
Unless something drastically changed, Fury Warriors still prefer fast offhands over the slow offhands even after the WW change?
Most Fury warriors I know prefer slow offhand due to the WW change, They'd rather not have their OH eat too many Flurry charges as well, but I think their mechanics are such that they do fine with either slow or fast, as it evens out in the end. I think the biggest compelling reason for a Fury warrior to go fast OH is if they are rage starved, which tends not to be the case with well geared Fury warriors.

I think the general rule of thumb, is look at the pure DPS number, regardless of speed (for Fury OH choice). Though a Fury warrior with a lot of haste might prefer slow.

Last edited by Mengus : 02/11/08 at 3:10 PM.
#6987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Morelis
I was lucky enough to pick up a [shard of contempt] last night. Unfortunately uptimemeter/procwatch are both broken with the changes to the combat log so until someone finds a workaround or updates them it will be hard to measure ppm.

My initial impression is that the proc rate is fairly high(which matches with Item - Sunwell Dungeon Melee Trinket - Spells - World of Warcraft ) but the cooldown doesn't seem that bad, I'd bet it's less than 2 min. If I get some time tonight I'll try and record a log from an extended session on the BL mobs. We should be able to get a decent estimate from that at least.

edit:
Forgot I had the combatlog toggled on briefly last night to see the new format. Even in the short time I had it on I caught two procs fairly close together:


2/11 01:06:26.031 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000055C94C,Xerel,0x511,4 5053,Heroism,0x40,BUFF
2/11 01:06:45.781 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000055C94C,Xerel,0x511,4 5053,Heroism,0x40,BUFF
2/11 01:07:15.140 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0x000000000055C94C,Xerel,0x511,4 5053,Heroism,0x40,BUFF

So that's 2 procs in ~49s, looks pretty promising!

Last edited by Morelis : 02/11/08 at 3:51 PM. Reason: additional info
#6988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Az-
Originally Posted by Acks
I calculated ~T6 level gear EP for the new Jewelcrafting neck (didn't see it listed, forgive me if its already been posted).

Link: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...elringneck.jpg

Choker of Endless Nightmares (161.49) < Hardened Khorium Choker (187.28).

Let me know if im wrong here and ill amend the post.


The ring looks nice as well but I have not sat down long enough to get the values.
Hard Khorium Band - Items - WOWDB

Found an Axe as well from 2.4 that is 2.6 speed but it was only 92.1 DPS
Breeching Comet - Items - WOWDB

(ok figured out a link but not sure how you make it so when you hover over it it shows up.)

Last edited by Az- : 02/11/08 at 4:06 PM.
#6989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Morelis
So that's 2 procs in ~49s, looks pretty promising!
Then we're probably looking at the same effect as Tsunami Talisman, 10% proc rate with 45 sec internal cooldown, or perhaps a PPM mechanic with ~1 PPM.

Either way, we can probably thus expect something on the order of 20s/60s the buff being up. So 44 ER*3.15 EP + 230 EP*20/60 = 138.6+76.7 = ~215 EP. That's excellent, and especially so for being ilevel 115. I would not be terribly surprised if this got nerfed.

Last edited by Rob : 02/11/08 at 4:18 PM.
#6990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
Originally Posted by Morelis
I was lucky enough to pick up a [shard of contempt] last night.
May I ask, Morelis, where did you get it? Magister's Terrace/Sunwell Plateau?
#6991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Weem
Are you sure that's where it drops? I see it in screenshots with Sunwell boss loot.
Yeah, found this SS on the wow forums:
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y18...108_094601.jpg

Also, ran heroic MT myself and the new healing trinket dropped; so this is just a conjecture but I believe all those new trinkets all drop from that boss.
#6992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Patrik
May I ask, Morelis, where did you get it? Magister's Terrace/Sunwell Plateau?
Heroic Magister's Terrace, 3rd boss I believe.
#6993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
Originally Posted by Jingizu
I thought about applying the new enchant "Deathfrost" on my offhand. Supports the MT and he still has the possibility to get Mongoose on his weapon for even better avoidance stats. Any thoughts on that idea?
Depends what the CD is on Deathfrost, if there is one, and the proc chance. I'd probably say that someone with a much higher swing speed should see about getting their off hand enchanted, as long as there's debuff space available on the mob.

From a raid wide perspective, deathfrost it worth having on any boss. From there it's down to management as to who swings it imo.
#6994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Touf
Originally Posted by Kombinat
Depends what the CD is on Deathfrost, if there is one, and the proc chance. I'd probably say that someone with a much higher swing speed should see about getting their off hand enchanted, as long as there's debuff space available on the mob.

From a raid wide perspective, deathfrost it worth having on any boss. From there it's down to management as to who swings it imo.
Somehow I doubt it stacks with Thunder Clap or Curse of Tongues, making it worthless for the vast majority of raiding.
#6995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
It is very very unlikely that it would stack with current debuffs, or even work on raid bosses. It'll make a decent cheap enhancement pvp enchant though.
#6996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Asirae
Updated my weapons base index.

Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Note: these weapons are split for Main-hand vs. Off-hand and simply calc the raw weapon dps & speed. Doesn't include weapon enchants, +stats, +procs, +abilities.... just base enhancement weapons.

Next update: will modify weapons index on t4, t5, t6 EP based on 3.1 Enhancement Points (EP) Stat Weight System found in this topic Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I.

Thanks for all your inputs thus far. This is version 1.1, version 2.0 should be better.

- Asirae

Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
#6997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Asirae
Updated my weapons base index.

Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
Given current testing here, I think you are overvaluing weapon speed and undervaluing stats (which would also affect off hand weapon damage).
Rod of the sun king, for example, seems to be overvalued there.
#6998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Spuddelkopf
Originally Posted by Diogo
Given current testing here, I think you are overvaluing weapon speed and undervaluing stats (which would also affect off hand weapon damage).
Please read Asirae's post more carefully:
Originally Posted by Asirae
note: these weapons are split for Main-hand vs. Off-hand and simply calc the raw weapon dps & speed. Doesn't include weapon enchants, +stats, +procs, +abilities....
#6999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Hm. Just re-read the Sim part of the OP. It states that you should run Yo!'s sim five times and take the average of the test results generated. Would it not be better to take the median[1]? It would remove odd higher and lower results completely instead of baking the flaws into the result. Nit-picking, I know. :P


[1] Median - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
#7000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Asirae
Updated my weapons base index.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but ... why are you updating us on your blog?
#7001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Originally Posted by Asirae
Updated my weapons base index.

Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Note: these weapons are split for Main-hand vs. Off-hand and simply calc the raw weapon dps & speed. Doesn't include weapon enchants, +stats, +procs, +abilities.... just base enhancement weapons.
If you do not include stats, procs and similar stuff you are doing something terribly wrong. Stats increases dps as well as white dps on the weapon. Same for procs (like the Drakefist Hammer - Dragonmaw - Dragonstrike) one.

Plus Rage & Fury speed is 2.6 not 2.7. Those weapons are in no means better than merciless ones.
#7002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macar
Originally Posted by Malan
Maybe I'm missing something here, but ... why are you updating us on your blog?
Becasue it is theorycrafting?
#7003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
+ Added ranks to elemental talents
+ Added Call of Flame talent
+ Added support for Lootrank (link is very long so you need to scroll to copy it fully)
- Higher ranks of Reverbation produce slightly less dps with same number of shocks per 2 minures due ti the limited Global cooldown simulation. This is offset if you increase number of shocks (that is why you choose reverbation anyway)

What is the spell damage coefficient for Searing totem now?

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
WoWWiki claims it gets 8%.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by Macar
Becasue it is theorycrafting?
Theorycrafting that's intended to rate weapons but doesn't take into account stats/ap/procs.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3possmann
Shifting Tanzanite missing?

Is there any reason why the Shifting Tanzanite gem isn't listed in the gems section? I believe it is currently the best gem for maximizing shaman dps while fulfilling the blue gem requirements of meta gems or gem bonuses, and deserves mention as it is a fairly unique in this aspect.

Superb guide.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
Have you all talked about how general haste abilities (heroism/ bloodlust, drums) affect the global cooldown for spells in 2.4? When those two abilities are active, totem twisting seems much more fluid. I know it's fairly simple math, but I'd like to see the differences between being hasted/not hasted and how it affects shocking/ stormstriking.

There are also a couple new items to plug your values into:
Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB
[Clutch of Demise]

My aep for the neck is 167, same value as [Choker of Endless Nightmares].

Leggings give me 270 compared to 222 from [Bow-stitched Leggings].

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
I expect only spellhaste to have an effect on your global cooldown for twisting and shocking, won't it?

Neck is +- 2% as good as the chocker, but a decent stamina upgrade. And if your ferals/fury/rogues don't have it yet, i would pass on it for them. They really need the hit to dps, we don't.

The feral leggings are a ~ +5% sidegrade, the other ones are a huge boost of 40-50% for me. What ep are you using?

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Raut
Hm. Just re-read the Sim part of the OP. It states that you should run Yo!'s sim five times and take the average of the test results generated. Would it not be better to take the median[1]? It would remove odd higher and lower results completely instead of baking the flaws into the result. Nit-picking, I know. :P


[1] Median - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I dunno, really we should be establishing 95% confidence intervals, right? Seriously though, if you got a data set {1.60, 1.62, 1.70, 1.70, 1.74} for some EP value, the mean is 1.67 and the median is 1.70, but the most piece of data that looks most like an "outlier" is 1.74, so I'm not convinced that this technique will always work in your favor. Theoretically, yes, the median is more "outlier-resistant", but we aren't really dealing with large data sets, and we are using data coming from an algorithmic simulation, not the "real world" so I think that our sampling error is going to be much lower.

I guess I'm saying that we would need to see the distribution of EP values for a single stat from ~100 sims with the same inputs, to determine if tossing apparent outliers is a productive strategy or not.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim


Last edited by Rob : 02/12/08 at 12:49 PM.
#7010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by possmann
Is there any reason why the Shifting Tanzanite gem isn't listed in the gems section? I believe it is currently the best gem for maximizing shaman dps while fulfilling the blue gem requirements of meta gems or gem bonuses, and deserves mention as it is a fairly unique in this aspect.

Superb guide.
Because that is a gem drop from heroic SV, not a craftable gem. While it could be better than a +8 str gem, it's not easily attainable.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
We are dealing with large data-sets. The numbers we are dealing with are from 10k hours worth of simulated action. Maybe doing the mean over five sims is redundant; we could run 50k hours instead? The median will take the top or bottom of the worst cases, that is a good thing. Then again, if there are variations in the sims, people must be using too small data sets. Bump it to 100k hours. That should even out the 0.1 variations.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Because that is a gem drop from heroic SV, not a craftable gem. While it could be better than a +8 str gem, it's not easily attainable.
I think its more along the lines that these gems are still UE until the next patch, a single gem is not going to make a drastic change in how people gem their sockets.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
I think its more along the lines that these gems are still UE until the next patch, a single gem is not going to make a drastic change in how people gem their sockets.
There's also the drop factor to contend with, I know I've run Heroic SV upwards of 50 times, and have only seen the gem drop one run (though 2 drops that run). I think anyone with half a brain will recognize (upon reading the first post) that a STR/AGI gem > STR/STA gem. It's the same reason why the epic crafted gems don't need to be listed.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7014SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
Originally Posted by Myul
I expect only spellhaste to have an effect on your global cooldown for twisting and shocking, won't it?

Neck is +- 2% as good as the chocker, but a decent stamina upgrade. And if your ferals/fury/rogues don't have it yet, i would pass on it for them. They really need the hit to dps, we don't.

The feral leggings are a ~ +5% sidegrade, the other ones are a huge boost of 40-50% for me. What ep are you using?
Spellhaste is included in heroism/ drums of battle. Go on ptr and test it out, it's pretty awesome. Just pop hero/ lust and plop a few totems down.

About the leggings, I didn't calculate sockets in my last post. Here's all 4 leggings for comparion, sockets assume max dps. The values I'm using are the average numbers from 10 10,000 hours.

crit 2
hit 1.9
agi 1.94
haste 1.83
armor pen .4

[Bow-stitched Leggings] 287
Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB 335
[Leggings of the Immortal Beast] 332
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] 428

Pretty nice upgrade until you can get your hands on the rogue legs.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
Quick question: I was looking over one of our WWS parses when I noticed I had "misses" for WF and Stormstrike. I got the 9% hit talents and around 150 hit rating on top of that, shouldn't I get 0% misses for special attacks? Or are those attacks that were dodged/parried?

Psibeast - WWS

Thanks.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
WWS just counts dodges/ parries as misses

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
I'll be satisfied when Blizz actuitaly puts in mail thats for Enhance, not just some hunter hand-me-downs. The weapons are starting to look better though...Stalking Vengance is awsome

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Raut
We are dealing with large data-sets. The numbers we are dealing with are from 10k hours worth of simulated action. Maybe doing the mean over five sims is redundant; we could run 50k hours instead? The median will take the top or bottom of the worst cases, that is a good thing. Then again, if there are variations in the sims, people must be using too small data sets. Bump it to 100k hours. That should even out the 0.1 variations.
I don't know how "hours" impacts the EP calculations that Yo's sim does. But theoretically, if I make the same assumption that you do (hours impacts the quality of EP calculations), then using the average (not median) of 10 sets of 10k hours should deliver identical results to using the value of 1 set of 100k hours.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3jlavarj
Originally Posted by Draenorm
WWS just counts dodges/ parries as misses
If you expand the stats for an attack row item, it'll show the number of each for parries/dodges/miss

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Draenorm
[Bow-stitched Leggings] 287
Starstalker Legguards - Items - WOWDB 335
[Leggings of the Immortal Beast] 332
[Leggings of the Immortal Night] 428

Pretty nice upgrade until you can get your hands on the rogue legs.
If I remember correctly the feral legs transmute into the rogue ones, so if you had them you'd just have to turn them in with a sunmote(which are a common drop).

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by Psibeast
Quick question: I was looking over one of our WWS parses when I noticed I had "misses" for WF and Stormstrike. I got the 9% hit talents and around 150 hit rating on top of that, shouldn't I get 0% misses for special attacks? Or are those attacks that were dodged/parried?

Psibeast - WWS

Thanks.
I do get SS misses at times, i understand WWS may not show if you really missed or not, but i have seen "your Stormstrike misses X" before in my combat log.

I've always wondered why but never explored into it.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Gehenna
I do get SS misses at times, i understand WWS may not show if you really missed or not, but i have seen "your Stormstrike misses X" before in my combat log.

I've always wondered why but never explored into it.
Banshee wail from Hyjal trash causes this in the most common of cases, it adds a significant ammount of miss to all attacks, which of course includes specials. nothing makes me cringe more than a double miss WF.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Yo!
What is the spell damage coefficient for Searing totem now?
According to a WWS of mine from Jan 21st.
Searing totem had a max normal hit of 261 and I was wearing roughly 855spell damage (i was resto that night)
I also didn't have Call of Flame.

261 - 66(normal max damage on searing totem) = 195
195/855 = 22.8%

So 22.8% of spell damage is my guess as to how much spell damage searing totem receives per tick. I should go in game and test that 50-66 for the base numbers. Roughly 25% feels way too high.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Smokestomp
Originally Posted by Rapparee
According to a WWS of mine from Jan 21st.
Searing totem had a max normal hit of 261 and I was wearing roughly 855spell damage (i was resto that night)
I also didn't have Call of Flame.

261 - 66(normal max damage on searing totem) = 195
195/855 = 22.8%

So 22.8% of spell damage is my guess as to how much spell damage searing totem receives per tick. I should go in game and test that 50-66 for the base numbers. Roughly 25% feels way too high.
Given that spell dmg, you were raid buffed, and had imp scorch, COE, misery, etc.

[1] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[2] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[3] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[4] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[5] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[6] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[7] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[8] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[9] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[10] See this post by PsiVen.

[11] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[12] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[13] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[14] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

[15] This is actually 6.25 defense skill, defense skill is rounded down, so 15 defense rating is in practice a bit less than 1% uncrushability.

[16] With Blessing of Kings. Otherwise 25 agility is needed.

[17] This macro assumes you have 5/5 Anticipation specced. If you do not have 5/5 Anticipation, replace the "+ 20" with how much defense you are getting from Anticipation instead.

[18] There is a slight inaccuracy in this image in the text below the first hit table illustration, the "and crush" part should not have been included.

[19] All values are without any talents outside of Improved Righteous Fury. The Seal/Judgement of Vengeance numbers are when Seal of Vengeance is fully stacked. Seal of Blood is not mentioned because it does not scale with spell damage. Keep in mind that the threat per second values are also when you recast the spell exactly on the cooldown, this is unrealistic for spells like Hammer of Wrath.

[20] Threat per hit values are with a 1.8 speed weapon, the scaling for Seal of Righteousness is consistent in it's threat per second through all weapon speeds, as long as you use a one-handed weapon.

[21] This is with a spell damage weapon, Seal of Righteousness has a minor scaling component with the damage your weapon does, though this scaling is insignificant compared to it's scaling with spell damage.

[22] Per second values assume 3 blocks in a 10 second period.

[23] Thanks to Shalcker for testing this!

[24] See this post by PsiVen.

[25] Spell Power is not mentioned as it is practically always inferior to Threat; Spell Strike is inferior to Threat as well, but is included as it has a use for increasing threat reliability

[26] As there is no epic craftable Dodge/Stamina gem.

[27] With thanks to Bhrimstone of the Maintankadin forums, and Lookit for posting it here.

[28] Thanks to Bellator, Dodo and Morganim

#7025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Asirae
Ok. I've imported the basic stats to weapons and used T5 equiv. EP values.

Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

Basic formula:

EJ EP =
weapon dps * (( main-hand EJ EP 9.03 /2.6 ) * speed)
+ (strength * t5+kings modifier 2.2)
+ (agility * t5 modifier 2.0)
+ (crit rating * t5 modifier 2.0)
+ (hit rating * t5 modifier 1.4)
+ (haste rating * t5 modifier 1.5)
+ (armor penetration * t5 modifier 0.3)
+ (expertise rating * t5/t6 modifier of 3.0 (just guessing here))


My 1st question is.... how to measure (or estimate) the EP value of a proc like Dragonstrike's Chance on Hit: Increase Haste Rating by 212 for 10 seconds? I suppose I could extrapolate Proc Per Min and add that to the overall EP value.

Thoughts?
#7026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
You'd probably be better off ranking them using t6 values. Tier 5 will soon no longer be the median of raiding.
#7027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
It's been posted already but we didn't know what it looked it like, so here it is: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...gvengeance.jpg

Personally I prefer Axes/Maces to sleek rogue-type weapons on my shaman.. but whatever, it look
#7051SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sûl
Originally Posted by Rob
I don't know how "hours" impacts the EP calculations that Yo's sim does. But theoretically, if I make the same assumption that you do (hours impacts the quality of EP calculations), then using the average (not median) of 10 sets of 10k hours should deliver identical results to using the value of 1 set of 100k hours.
I've found this to be quite accurate. And therefore have been using single 100k hour simulationruns for my calculations.
#7052SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3muSashiSF
Just got the Shard of contempt and after 20 minutes of testing on the PTR I can confirm that the cooldown on the trinket proc is 45 seconds. That was the lowest I got atleast.
#7053SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Endralith
So whats the EP value of shard then? if the 45 sec CD is correct... it should be insane no?
#7054SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Endralith
So whats the EP value of shard then? if the 45 sec CD is correct... it should be insane no?
http://elitistjerks.com/634022-post6960.html
(44x3.18) + ((230x20)/45)) = 139.92 + 102.22 = 242.14 EP is the correct value I think.
#7055SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Khruschev
Second, it's been my experience that a Ret Paladin can fill that wildcard slot in the ideal melee DPS group at least as well as any of the other classes you listed.
My melee DPS group typically consists of myself, a feral druid, a combat swords rogue, a ret paladin and either an arms or fury warrior. The combination is pure damage.
#7056SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Nemaa
http://elitistjerks.com/634022-post6960.html
(44x3.18) + ((230x20)/45)) = 139.92 + 102.22 = 242.14 EP is the correct value I think.
Well that's slightly inaccurate. Bragor didn't account for the proc rate or ppm of the trinket, that calculation says that the AP benefit is triggered every 45 seconds on the dot. If the spell data that someone linked to was correct, its a 10% chance to proc on hit.
#7057SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nemaa
You are right. If there's a 45 second internal cooldown and the procrate is about 10% on hit (outside of the cd) the value of the trinket is slighlty lower. Considering we hit like 6-8 times in a 10 second period it's not a big deal.

Also Bragor's calculation on the other trinket (haste + stacking ap buff on proc) is not correct.
http://elitistjerks.com/634059-post6964.html
The "stacking up" phase will be shorter because of stormstrike and occasional WF procs. So the suggested AP value of the trinket is some kind of minimum value (if it's internal cd is really 45 sec). We need ingame testing of course.
#7058SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
(44x3.18) + ((230x20)/60)) = 139.92 + 76.67 = 216.6ep
This would be more accurate ep value of shard.
#7059SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Assuming it as an effective 1ppm, sure.
#7060SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ChaguraED
Originally Posted by Nemaa
The "stacking up" phase will be shorter because of stormstrike and occasional WF procs. So the suggested AP value of the trinket is some kind of minimum value (if it's internal cd is really 45 sec). We need ingame testing of course.
It may not be much shorter. The Stacking Buff from Darkmooncard:Crusade does not apply stacks for Windfury hits, only whites and Storm Strikes. So the added Stormstrike may shave off the 0.5 seconds.
#7061SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tuili
Lovely, lovely thread!

Last edited by Tuili : 02/14/08 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Updated profile
#7062SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sufferings
Has anyone experienced any bugs with Yo's sim? I don't know if I am inputting something wrong, but as of late, I am starting to get weird values. I ran it last night on 100k hours, current gear in armory. I got 2.33crit rating, 2.22 agil, which just seem way to high. As I had thought, strength never be lower than any other value. The only thing I can think of is that my crit is possibly a little low but my AP is high and that is making crit more valuable...but like I said I always thought strength would be the highest value.

Ran the sims from my stats, everything but a feral druid in the group. Any ideas?
#7063SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
It was probably just a typo in your input, there have been other reports of similar numbers talked about in the past in the thread. I'd try it again.
#7064SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sufferings
Originally Posted by frozndevl
It was probably just a typo in your input, there have been other reports of similar numbers talked about in the past in the thread. I'd try it again.

Actually I ran it many times, a few on 100k hours and probably about 15 tests on 10k hours. All came out with similar results, the 10k ones varied, but all showed crit rating above 2.2 every time.

Any help on this? Has worked great for me every time in the past.
#7065SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
The question is did you completely reload the sim every time or just recalculate? Ive run into issues where I TAB into a field and type and it doesn't overwrite the previous text, giving me ridiculous values. I just tested with the defaults and set AP to 2500. In a quick run and ended up with crit=2.65 and agil=2.57.

Running the default sim gave values of crit=1.68 and agil=1.63.

Granted, this is just a quick run, but the sim appears to be running correctly and just produces odd results when the input is odd.

Edit: After reading Vissi's post below, I went and tested with all hunter buffs, and adding madness, Cyclone Harness, and DST, and that gave me values of crit=2.8 and agil=2.72 on a short run. So it looks like that could be the real cause.

Last edited by frozndevl : 02/14/08 at 2:54 PM.
#7066SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vissi
Originally Posted by Sufferings
Actually I ran it many times, a few on 100k hours and probably about 15 tests on 10k hours. All came out with similar results, the 10k ones varied, but all showed crit rating above 2.2 every time.

Any help on this? Has worked great for me every time in the past.
I ran into a similar issue (crit was getting valued @ ~ 2.1 both with and without BoK). I talked to Yo! about it and he brought up that I probably had a large number of Hunter buff's in the group and on crit trinket procs (Tsunami) which made crit more valuable.
#7067SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
I don´t find it just now, but someone posted a Macro here which would be really interessting in Enhancement PvP it was something along the lines of

/castrandom Stormstrike, Purge(Rank2)

Now how does this work? Does it really choose randomly between those two spells and if so is there the chance that it does Purge instead of SS when CD is up? Because that would be really bad.

Is it possible to macro something that will SS anytime it is up and otherwise spam Purge on the target?
#7068SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Rhagok
I don´t find it just now, but someone posted a Macro here which would be really interessting in Enhancement PvP it was something along the lines of

/castrandom Stormstrike, Purge(Rank2)

Now how does this work? Does it really choose randomly between those two spells and if so is there the chance that it does Purge instead of SS when CD is up? Because that would be really bad.

Is it possible to macro something that will SS anytime it is up and otherwise spam Purge on the target?
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
#7069SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
..could someone please explain the bizarre logic behind the notion of NOT having any +hit beyond the usual 9% from talents? if white dmg is such a large % of your overall enhance raid dmg, then wouldnt it behoove you to be hitcapped as you would for any other class such as casters?

much ado is made of flurry. haste is godlike to be sure, but even a hasted attack can miss if youre not capped, and it likely will. the amount of dps youll do from a hasted attack that missed your target is 0.
#7070SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
Oh and you forgot that missing attacks can´t proc WF oh and they can´t CRIT too ... lol ^^ this is going to be so funny as you are about the 1,450,257 person to ask this 8)
#7071SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Storming
..could someone please explain the bizarre logic behind the notion of NOT having any +hit beyond the usual 9% from talents? if white dmg is such a large % of your overall enhance raid dmg, then wouldnt it behoove you to be hitcapped as you would for any other class such as casters?

much ado is made of flurry. haste is godlike to be sure, but even a hasted attack can miss if youre not capped, and it likely will. the amount of dps youll do from a hasted attack that missed your target is 0.
1. The 'bizarre logic' (as you put it) is clearly laid out in the first post in the Hit Rating section.

2. Nowhere, and never, has anyone in this community ever suggested that you take no hit beyond 9%. You have grossly misread the information here.
#7072SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Not only does the OP explain that hit rating, while somewhat useful, does not contribute as much to our dps as other stats such as AP and crit, but it also explains that haste rating is not nearly as useful as AP or crit either.

Hit is useful, it's not like you're avoiding it. It's just, other stats have a higher priority.
#7073SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
Wow, Malan himself. Much as you're likely tired of hearing it, kudos on the thread. It really is excellent stuff, through and through.

Moving right along.. lets ignore WF and crit. I never said anything about those in particular anyway.

I've read the OP, over and over and over. However, no logical justification is presented for not being hitcapped. Yes its true that our yellow dmg is capped from the 9% we get from our talents. Its true that other classes don't enjoy this situation, yes. However this in no way provides any logical premise that talented hit is 'good enough' and white dmg is to relegated to second fiddle just because our yellow dmg is capped.

So basically you're saying, BECAUSE specials are capped (and partly BECAUSE ap and crit apply to both white and yellow dmg), that's a reason to put all your eggs in that particular basket and let the white dmg fall where it may, and if you miss here and there, then whatever?

I'm really quite tired of my guild parroting back at me the stuff they read on this website, but it's as though they don't THINK about what they read. You're basically saying, its ok not to be hitcapped. But why? Just because our specials already are, as of the 9% from talents?

Saying 'it just is' isn't good enough. What logical justification could there possibly be to walk into a raid below the hitcap? Does any other class tolerate that? If a lock steps into BT with 130 hit about how long would it be before they're laughed out the door?

Crit has nothing to do with it, ditto for flurry/haste, etc. I'm not concerned with the whiz-bang dmg, not crit or haste or anything else, just plain hit/miss. Yes crit and ap are important, since strength works the same for us as for warriors, essentially. But what about the small percentage of dmg that you lose due to misses while being under the hitcap?
#7074SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Let's not ignore WF and crit. If our class only did white damage noncrit, your arguement might be valid, but that's not how our damage works.

Hit affects only white damage. AP, crit, and expertise affect all of our physical damage (and an insignificant amount of our shock damage).

Most warriors I know aren't stressing to get hit capped either.
#7075SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Diogo
I think you are still misinterpreting the original post.

At no point it says that you should avoid hit. Just that it is less valuable then other stats.

Let's imagine you have to choose between two pieces of gear: one with 100 ap and 20 crit, and the other with 100ap and 20 hit: the piece that will yield the greatest increase in dps is the one with crit. Hit wont affect your specials, while crit will. Now, if you have the to choose between the same 100ap/20crit and a piece with 100ap/40hit, the latter is better.

It is never about absolutes, just relative weights.
#7076SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
Originally Posted by Diogo
I think you are still misinterpreting the original post.

At no point it says that you should avoid hit. Just that it is less valuable then other stats.

Let's imagine you have to choose between two pieces of gear: one with 100 ap and 20 crit, and the other with 100ap and 20 hit: the piece that will yield the greatest increase in dps is the one with crit. Hit wont affect your specials, while crit will. Now, if you have the to choose between the same 100ap/20crit and a piece with 100ap/40hit, the latter is better.

It is never about absolutes, just relative weights.
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
#7077SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
As a follow-up to Diogo's comment, there is a theoretical point in the itemization where you would naturally become hit-capped because your total item budget would be so large that hit-capping would be an optimal use of that budget. However, we aren't at the ilvl where that would happen, and it is unlikely that it ever will with current mechanics. Simply put, between AP/Str, Crit, Agi, hit, expertise, haste, and hit, there are just too many stats to dump itemization points into, and a number of them give better returns per point than +hit, assuming that your gear is relatively balanced.
#7078SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
We aren't casters. Each spell a caster uses is affected by being hitcapped. Casters also require less hit rating to become hit capped compared to a dual wield class, and spell hit and melee hit cost equal in the item budget.
#7079SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
I'm not concerned with the whiz-bang dmg, not crit or haste or anything else, just plain hit/miss.
In this situation you are definitel right, if you do not account for dmg just for Hits and misses then definitely hit is a great stat ^^

If however you are just trying to do as much dmg as possible you should not gimp yourself so massively by choosing gear with lots of hit if there is better gear available.
#7080SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Storming
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
And that's why you're not raid leader?

Seriously, though. You don't need to provide justification for "not being hitcapped". You don't prove a negative. What you do is provide justification for being hitcapped. So far nobody has proven that doing so will produce better damage than not being hitcapped, because with current itemization it simply does not.

Here is an explanation for why pursuing hitcap is an unproductive strategy for enhancement shamans:
If you have 9% +hit from talents, or ~50 hit rating and 6% +hit from talents, your "yellow" attacks (Windfury and Stormstrike) will never miss. Therefore, hit rating affects only about 50% of your damage. Critical strike rating affects 90% of your damage, so it delivers better returns. Strength (and attack power) affect 100% of your damage, so they deliver the best returns.
#7081SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Diogo
Originally Posted by Storming
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
Simply put, it is better to have a lot of haste, a lot of crit and a lot of attack power than it is to have less of those in order to accomodate more hit rating.
#7082SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3dukes
Originally Posted by Storming
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped.
a) You prove your point before you start stating things. Even if that's two WWS parses of you doing more damage with hit cap than without, it's SOME kind of evidence.
b)
Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
c)
Effectively, because we can get a large quantity of +Hit from talents (9%), our special attacks (windfury and stormstrike) are already hit capped. All the extra +Hit rating on your gear is going toward improving white damage only, which typically comprises between 45%-50% of your total damage. When you consider the itemization costs of hit rating compared to crit rating and AP, which directly impact 90% of a shaman's total damage, you can see why hit rating is given lower precedence.
d) You're level 63. I understand you want to know about the mechanics before you get to a raid situation, but wtf?
e) If you still don't get it after this many people telling you and your only response being "I don't think being un-hitcapped is really a good thing", then you need to think about this more.
#7083SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.
#7084SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Or he should roll a rogue and hitcap that with combatspec
#7085SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Originally Posted by Storming
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.

but, ok. its good to be able to discuss things freely here without the usual 'lulz zomg wtfbbq!#$' nonsense of the wow forums.
Getting hitcapped would gimp your other stats. Proposing getting hitcapped is the same as proposing gimping strength for the purpose of hit.
#7086SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Scheme
Originally Posted by rava
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
#7087SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Penguin
Originally Posted by Storming
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
Yes you did. In order to reach the hit cap, you are going to have to equip gear that ignores str, ap or crit in favour of more hit in the budget. Even if you gem for it, those are sill gems that could be crit. You can't just say "add more hit", because it comes at a cost of stats that will produce better dps.
#7088SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Storming
I've read the OP, over and over and over. However, no logical justification is presented for not being hitcapped.
If we lived in a world where one could be hitcapped without sacrificing any other stat -- well then yes, it'd be worthwhile.

But consider: you have a yellow slot. You can get +8 Crit Rating gems, or +8 Hit Rating gems. The Crit Rating gem would increase your chance to crit by .36%, the hit rating gem would increase your chance to hit by .5%.

However, depending on your spec & cycle, crit applies to 80 to 90% of your damage. Above that first 9%, hit only applies to at best 50% of your damage. This makes the crit gem at worst a .288% increase to total DPS, while the hit rating gem is at best a .25% increase.

So, provided that you are not crit capped, a crit gem is always better than a hit gem. And a +8 strength gem is even better. This is true well into BT.

The itemization on gear makes a similar trade off to 1 STR = 1 CR = 1 HitR. Thus, if you hit cap, you're sacrificing potential STR and CR gear to do so. Because both those stats offer more gains than HitR, you will necessarily do worse DPS than a shaman who had more balanced gear with the same item level.

Hit rating doesn't suck; you're bound to wind up with some of it because there are no pieces of armor with, say, +100 STR and that's it. I've found a lot of upgrades that dropped some STR/AP and Crit/Agi for a large amount of HitR. But if you cap, you will suck compared to others at your level who didn't cap.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/14/08 at 4:03 PM.
#7089SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Storming
le sigh. i never proposed gimping strength for the purpose of hit either.
To elaborate on what Penguin said...

Yes, you absolutely are proposing gimping strength and crit for hit. You can't magically add hit onto a piece of gear without either (a) increasing its ilvl (and thus the location of the drop, making it inaccessible at the level of the original item), or (b) removing other stats.

Gems are an excellent example, where gemming for hit means that you're not gemming for strength, but the same logic applies when Blizzard assigns stats to gear. They can either put hit on something, or they can add to another stat on it. Therefore, you can't isolate hit into its own discussion, you can only talk about it in terms of how it weights in relation to our other key stats.

Certain other classes want to be hit capped because hit, up to the point where they are capped, affects their DPS more than any other stat. Not because there's some all-important plateau of DPS that you can only reach if you never miss. The hit cap for them is simply the point where the stat is no longer worth anything. For us, it's never (unless you're Enh/Elem instead of Enh/Resto) the case that hit is worth that much. It's that simple.
#7090SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Scheme
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
Wow, I'm dumb. I did not even think to go that simple.
#7091SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by rava
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!
As of now, there isn't a viable "conditional" for integrating purge into another hotkey. The best way to go about it is to have purge be the opening line on a macro that does something non-related to purge, such as mount.

For example, i use this:

#show Tawny Windrider
/stopcast
/cast [harm] Purge; [target=targettarget, harm] Purge
/userandom [nobutton:2, flyable, nomounted] Tawny Windrider; [nomounted] Horn of the Swift Brown Wolf, Horn of the Frostwolf Howler
/dismount
END

If someone knows another method, I'd love to know myself. I've been owrking to find a hotkey that i can make that purges when the target can be purged, and if not, use my cast sequence.

On another note, in the explanation about expertise on the front page, one sentence could perhaps be edited for clarity:

"To get around this, you first need to sum up the expertise rating across all your items, divide by 3.95, take the floor, and multiply by 3.95 again."

I just think "round down to the nearest whole integer" would be better than "take the floor" for those not not savvy with math jargon like this. Maybe I'm wrong, just a suggestion.
#7092SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Storming
i never said the OP specifically proposed to not bother with hit beyond talents.

i understand the concept of some situations showing stats to be greater overall benefit than hit. thats not what im talking about either.

im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
The justification for not being hit capped is this; If you select your gear based on which items will result in you dealing the most damage possible, you won't be hit capped. I attack 20 times and 10 of my attacks hit for 1100 damage each. You attack 20 times and they all hit for 500 damage each. Congratulations, you're hit capped. Too bad you're doing less damage than I am in this theoretical scenario. There is no special prize for being hit capped. Explain to us why never missing is necessary or even optimal based off of our current options gear-wise.

1 point of hit rating just plain provides a smaller damage increase than 1 point of crit rating. Why? I don't know. Ask Blizzard.

Hit rating isn't really a "lesser" stat. It does actually surpass stats like agility and haste rating in many situations. I've actually had hit rating get really close(.1 EP) to the value of crit rating based off of my own use of the simulator. I've never had it actually surpass crit though.

In short, hit rating is slightly less valuable than stats like strength, attack power, crit rating and expertise because math says it is. Math is a badass, so I wouldn't insult it if I were you.

Last edited by Sebudai : 02/14/08 at 5:08 PM.
#7093SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Binkenstein
Math for the new trinket!

I'm going to work on putting together a decent framework for looking at proc based trinkets. Also: full credit for the original equation to whoever it was that made it (can't remember names right now).
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
=(15/(DEP!$G$12/(Crit*0.2)+45))*190
This is the formula I'm using for the sextant proc on my spreadsheet atm.

One of the other guys (can't remember who atm) came up with it.

The basic framework works out at Duration/chance + cooldown, multiplied by bonus.
bonus\frac{Duration}{Chance + cooldown}\)

So for this we'd get the following:

230 * (20/(hits per second*0.1) + 45)

The reason that I included the hits per second value is that it will affect the proc chance.

[e]Regarding weapon speeds, a 1/Sa + 1/Sb will give hits per second for dual weild.
For 2.6/2.6 we'd see: 230*(20/(0.769/.1+45)) -> 230*(20/52.69) -> 87.3 AP

Full version for the trinket:
230\frac{20}{(1/Sa + 1/Sb)/0.1 + 45}

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/14/08 at 5:54 PM.
#7094SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Cuddly
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
#7095SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Should that formula take into account that Flurry makes a 2.6 speed weapon effectively 1.82? Plugging numbers back in, I get:

230*(20/(0.1*1.100+45)) = 102.0 AP
#7096SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Cuddly
While we are on the subject of hit rating, are we valuing the increased windfury procs due to not missing an attack that would proc it?
I hope you're kidding.
#7097SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mbuzi
Originally Posted by Storming
im talking about justification for not being hitcapped. so far im seeing alot of it, round-the-back circular logic for walking into a raid knowing you're gonna miss X% of your attacks. if i were raid leader, id call that unacceptable just as would be the case for a caster walking in without the usual 202.
I think (hope) I can solve this confusion. If the point of a raid was to make sure every attack hit, you'd be correct. However, the generally accepted principle is to maximize sustained DPS. The AEP system proposed here that values hit less than some stats is designed to maximize sustained dps, not to maximize # of attacks that hit. The reason casters (generally) cap their hit is because maxing spell hit is how a caster maximizes DPS.
#7098SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
Math for the new trinket!

...

So for this we'd get the following:

230 * (20/(hits per second*0.1) + 45)

The reason that I included the hits per second value is that it will affect the proc chance.

[e]Regarding weapon speeds, a 1/Sa + 1/Sb will give hits per second for dual weild.
For 2.6/2.6 we'd see: 230*(20/(0.769/.1+45)) -> 230*(20/52.69) -> 87.3 AP
Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?

Last edited by Ardonomus : 02/14/08 at 6:23 PM. Reason: Clarifying
#7099SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Can anyone explain to me why on maxdps.com, the 'EP' value of haste is so inflated? I'm thinking it's due to the modelling of WF to not include a 3s cooldown, but I'm not totally sure.

I was also thinking that with all the haste gear coming out in 2.4 we can do some tests to see if the 1.4-1.5 haste valley really exists. Looking at all the available passive haste gear so far available, we can get 444 haste rating/28.17% haste. We can probably run tests using a set of [Sun-forged Cleaver] to model the effect of adding/removing haste.

[edit] actually, all that haste is only enough to bring 2.6 down to 1.54 with 100% flurry. Seems we need just a little bit more haste (which is probably in the rest of the sunwell gear)
#7100SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grogimer
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
#7101SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grogimer
Solomir, As stated in the original post it was already disproved.
#7102SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
I believe the point disproving the haste valley was made in the context of the fact that you'd only be seeing speeds in that region when procs/BLust was active, and not passively over the course of a 5+ minute fight. If you were supposedly sitting at a 1.54 speed when flurried, and then another haste item dropped, could it actually lead to a drop in dps due to dropping below 1.5 speed? Obviously, no one at the moment would actually consider pursuing a full haste set (it requires the BT haste gear and the ZA cloak), but as item levels inflate, it is possible at some time that hitting that kind of passive haste is possible for top end gear, unless they rework how windfury works.
#7103SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Test haste valley with Yo's sim.

flurry off.
mongooses off.
Edit: haste pots off.
weapon speed 1.51

passive haste 0%
test run 1#
851dps.

passive haste 1%
test run 2#
809dps.



EDIT: Damn forget to take off haste pots. I tested with 1.51 too but 30passive haste was too much to ruin all results.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/15/08 at 5:27 AM.
#7104SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Am I misunderstanding or misreading something here, or is there a typo in there?

First you say it's *0.1)+45, and in the edit you type /.1+45. Shouldn't it be 230*(20/(0.769*.1+45)) -> 230*(20/45.0769) -> ~102,05EP, or do I lack some understanding here?

And if it is indeed just a typo, which one is correct?
No, using Excel math, multiplication & division are calculated before addition/subtraction, but to make it simple, /769*0.1)+45 is what it should read.

Revised formula (not tested) is TPC(A + B) + \frac{TP}{D}\ where T = duration, P = proc bonus, C = Proc chance, A/B = weapon speed A & B, D = cooldown
#7105SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Test haste valley with Yo's sim.
flurry off.
mongooses off.
weapon speed 1.50

passive haste 0%
test run 1#
820dps.

passive haste 1%
test run 2#
824dps.
To be fair, it's pretty easy to find the converse as well, provided you're geared for yellow damage more than white damage. For example, using the following two scenarios, only differentiated by run1: 0% haste, run2: 5% haste...

2500 AP
30% crit
15% hit
1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH
MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7
MH/OH expertise: 8
flurry off, crusader/crusader

0% haste: 1167 dps
5% haste: 1118 dps

The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents.

I think you get what you saw because of how yo! handles 1.5 speed (greater than versus greater-than/equal to). If you run your same test using 1.55 as the default weapon speed instead of 1.5, you'll see a rather enormous dps loss from 1% haste.
#7106SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Tier 6 Shaman Bracers were changed, 64 ap converted to 32 str, 22 agi converted to 22 hit rating.
#7107SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Okay so....

Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it.

I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore.

Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more?
#7108SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ frozndevl
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Okay so....

Over the past couple of days I have accumulated various pieces with armor ignore on it.

I've gotten Dory's Embrace 112 armor ignore, Vindicator's Badn of Triumph 56 armor ignore, and Bladeangel's Money Belt 77 armor ignore.

Is this enough of armor ignore to make Executioner on the MH worth it? Or do I still need to stack more?
Use Yo!'s sim, should be pretty easy to run it once with mongoose on one hand and again with executioner.

Last edited by frozndevl : 02/15/08 at 12:13 PM.
#7109SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Okay - I just freshly built my computer. I been hesitant to install random crap on it that i dont usualy use (java)
#7110SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
No, using Excel math, multiplication & division are calculated before addition/subtraction, but to make it simple, /769*0.1)+45 is what it should read.

Revised formula (not tested) is TPC(A + B) + \frac{TP}{D}\ where T = duration, P = proc bonus, C = Proc chance, A/B = weapon speed A & B, D = cooldown
Yes I'm well aware that multiplication and division are calculated before addition and subtraction, however my point was that in the original post you write .769 multiplied by 0.1, and later .769 divided by 0.1. The parenthesis (spelling?) was not what I was picking on

But if the *0.1 is correct compared to /0.1, then you get a slight difference of ~15EP in your formula due to the difference in the "chance" calculation you first posted, if I understand it correctly
#7111SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Rhagok
I don´t find it just now, but someone posted a Macro here which would be really interessting in Enhancement PvP it was something along the lines of

/castrandom Stormstrike, Purge(Rank2)

Now how does this work? Does it really choose randomly between those two spells and if so is there the chance that it does Purge instead of SS when CD is up? Because that would be really bad.

Is it possible to macro something that will SS anytime it is up and otherwise spam Purge on the target?
Besides the /stopcasting macro you got previously in this thread there is always:
/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge
#7112SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Originally Posted by Tristan
/castsequence reset=10 Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge
this will not reset every 10 seconds if spam clicked, and 8 purges are 12seconds global cd.

I would use:

/castsequence reset=shift Stormstrike, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge, Purge
this way you can reset the macro shift clicking it and it will reset to SS afte 6 Purges (6 *1.5 =9seconds).

I'm not sure if a Purge that receive a "nothing to dispell" error will still count as spell used in the castsequence, but I guess it does.
#7113SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Khlysti
Originally Posted by Disquette
To be fair, it's pretty easy to find the converse as well, provided you're geared for yellow damage more than white damage. For example, using the following two scenarios, only differentiated by run1: 0% haste, run2: 5% haste...

2500 AP
30% crit
15% hit
1.6 speed MH, 1.6 speed OH
MH DPS: 97.5, OH DPS: 93.7
MH/OH expertise: 8
flurry off, crusader/crusader

0% haste: 1167 dps
5% haste: 1118 dps

The valley certainly can exist, but I don't know how often a person would hit it using real life gear and talents.


This was entirely the point of the disproving.

With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation. Simply adding in flurry is enough that flurried speed going from above to below 1.5 is a dps increase (it is however a much smaller increase than adding the same amount of haste and not crossing that line). Once the use of haste pots, heroism/lust, drums and mongoose are added in (even more so if you use DST or dragonstrike) there is no single speed value you are at for long enough that going over the 1.5 line for that value will result in a decrease in overall dps.

The general point is, in a raid situation haste will provide a dps increase no matter what your current hasted weapon speed, but the haste item that takes you over the 1.5 point when flurried *may* have a slightly lower dps boost than it otherwise would if you don't use many proc / short term use haste effects.
#7114SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Disquette
Originally Posted by Khlysti
This was entirely the point of the disproving.

With no flurry or other proc style haste effects its a fairly simple math proof to show small amounts of haste that take you from >1.5 speed to <1.5 speed will lead to a small dps loss, however this is not (in all tests in game and sim runs I have done) reproducable in a 'real world' situation.

etc...
Of course. I was simply responding to someone who seemed to believe that the dps valley wasn't reproducable in a sim. They gave an example, I gave a counter example and explained why the test they ran didn't act the way we'd probably expect it to.

No new thoughts or anything like that, just making sure that Pitbuller understands how that particular aspect of Yo's sim acts.
#7115SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tuili
Originally Posted by Scheme
/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Stormstrike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine.
#7116SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Ezeckial
I've been pondering the possible dps viability of dual Deathfrost in PvE. I haven't seen anything about it's proc rate or the impacts of Dual Wielding on said proc rate.

Deathfrost Tooltip

Permanently enchant a weapon so your damaging spells and melee hits occasionally inflict an additional 150 Frost damage and reduce the target's melee, ranged, and casting speed by 15% for 4 sec.

Dual Wielding the enchant may double the proc rate on your shocks. Also due to the wording on the enchant it may double the proc rate on each of your melee hits. Most enchants say that the weapon has a chance to proc the effect. (I'm thinking misplaced servo arm mechanics, I remember getting a 2nd one was supposed to be a huge buff to dps)

Without numbers and knowing how having 2 weapons enchanted effects the proc rate on spells and melee hits it's all just conjecture. However I'd be interested in seeing how the numbers work out.

Last edited by Ezeckial : 02/15/08 at 11:19 AM.
#7117SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Jabor
Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me.

Last edited by Jabor : 02/15/08 at 12:05 PM. Reason: I fail at linking items
#7118SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
We noted several pages back that Deathfrost is highly unlikely to stack with Thunderclap/CoT or even work on raid bosses.
it's all just conjecture
Yes that's pretty much all it is at this point so let's move on for now.
#7119SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ezeckial
The deathfrost slowing effect is unlikely to work on raid bosses that's for sure. Even then Imp. T-clap is better and it would probably override.

I was considering it from a pure dps standpoint. Even if it's immune to the slowing effect, mobs will not be immune to the 150 frost damage. I'm just wondering if it would be like a super fiery. That also effects shocks.

But all this really depends as I said on proc rate and how having it on 2 weapons works.

Exocutioner/Mongoose or Mongoose/Mongoose will probably be better, but seeing some numbers still interests me. I just hadn't seen it looked at from this point of view yet, and don't have access to any numbers to present. So I was wondering if anyone else did.
#7120SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Jabor
Hello there, i have a question which i can't seem to find an answer to anywhere in your posts or in any of the reply'.
The other day i had the Coif of the jungle stalker drop from Hex lord, i am running around with my good old Cyclone helm and i was wondering what the rating of a meta socket should be, as in how i am to know if an item with a meta socket is better than one without even tho the item without has superior stats, i know that the meta socket will yield ~1 % dps increase, but i cant do the math, i hope you guys can help me.
You're joking, right? This exact question has been brought up multiple times, "Search this thread" = your bff.

As far as Deathfrost, I plan on putting it on two gutgores just to spit in warlocks' faces.
#7121SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
Alright, while reading through all of this "haste rating" talk, I get utterly confused.

I just got my first piece of Haste Rating gear last night -- [Grips of Damnation].

Quote from original post:

"Haste Rating will directly increase the contribution of white swings to your DPS - 1% Haste will generate 1% more auto attack DPS."

How much Haste Rating makes 1% haste? I am sure this has been answered elsewhere. I am just not finding it.
#7122SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
WowWiki.com and even the WoWhead link of the item in question would answer that question for you.
#7123SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shinanigans
Alright, so the data for you lazy people.

Directly from WoWWiki:

"Every 15.7 Points of Haste rating you will have 1% more Attack Speed."
#7124SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jabor
@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.
#7125SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Jabor
@rava, sorry for missing it, theres like 300 pages, i searched around 100 of em.
If you use the "Search this thread" tool, you search every page at once!
#7126SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Vissi
If you are taking leather you can swap a couple things
Grimgrin Faceguard
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest
#7127SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Vissi
If you are taking leather you can swap a couple things
Grimgrin Faceguard
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest
Bloodsea Brigand's Vest = Yes
Grimgrin Faceguard = No

Keep your Cataclysm Helm until a T6 option with a meta socket.
#7128SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Knar
Hi i'm new to EJ, but I have been a long time reader/worshipper of this thread. Im an enhance shammy in SSC/TK and my guild has currently cleared everything up to Kael'thas. using the itemization part of the post i made a list of the best gear I believe I can get before entering tier 6 content (from SSC, TK, Badges, and ZA). here is a link to it: 70 Draenei Shaman

I'm just curious if I have done all the right calculations and if there's any better gear I can get before I hit BT/Hyjal.

sorry if somebody has already mentioned, and thanks for taking the time to read this

EDIT: I forgot to mention i didnt included crafted weapons/armor because im not a LW or blacksmith.
Use the sim, that's the best way.
#7129SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
rava
New badge weapons for those who care:

[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

Going to run sim once we finish playing around with Brut.

S3(1770 ap, 36.27% crit, 17.37% hit, 2.35% haste, 224 arp, 2x 103.1 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 364 agi, mh mongoose, oh executioner, dst, stonebreaker, earth+fire, most raid buffs) :
7700 ac: 1489, 1491, 1491, 1490, 1489
6200 ac: 1637, 1638, 1639, 1637, 1638

Badge(1790 ap, 35.34% crit, 17.69% hit, 5.14% haste, 126 arp, 2x 103 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 386 agi, everything else the same) :
7700ac: 1482, 1481, 1482, 1479, 1480
6200ac: 1628, 1627, 1630, 1629, 1628

Pretty damn close. I expected a bigger gap with the speed difference but it is ~10 dps in most cases.

Last edited by rava : 02/16/08 at 2:13 AM.
#7130SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Originally Posted by rava
New badge weapons for those who care:

[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

Going to run sim once we finish playing around with Brut.

S3(1770 ap, 36.27% crit, 17.37% hit, 2.35% haste, 224 arp, 2x 103.1 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 364 agi, mh mongoose, oh executioner, dst, stonebreaker, earth+fire, most raid buffs) :
7700 ac: 1489, 1491, 1491, 1490, 1489
6200 ac: 1637, 1638, 1639, 1637, 1638

Badge(1790 ap, 35.34% crit, 17.69% hit, 5.14% haste, 126 arp, 2x 103 dps weps w/ 6 expertise, 206 str, 386 agi, everything else the same) :
7700ac: 1482, 1481, 1482, 1479, 1480
6200ac: 1628, 1627, 1630, 1629, 1628

Pretty damn close. I expected a bigger gap with the speed difference but it is ~10 dps in most cases.
According to Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery - Items - WOWDB the offhand is 1.5 speed. Did your sims count with 2.5 speed weapon or with 1.5 speed weapon? Would be bit strange seeing 2.5/1.5 weapons yielding only 1% DPS less than 2.6/2.6 weapons after the 'no fast offhands' crusade.
#7131SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by h4rr0d
According to Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery - Items - WOWDB the offhand is 1.5 speed. Did your sims count with 2.5 speed weapon or with 1.5 speed weapon? Would be bit strange seeing 2.5/1.5 weapons yielding only 1% DPS less than 2.6/2.6 weapons after the 'no fast offhands' crusade.
The slow offhand is Brutality, not Savagery.
#7132SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Oh, I didn't think there would be fast and slow offhand for us. Considering that all generic physical mail loot known so far is 4 hunter pieces from which there are 2 x leggings...
#7133SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
There are 3 "Vanir's..." fist weapons.

[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery]

The last one is not for us.
#7134SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
So.. Anybody going full out leather come Sunwell ?

I know I am after seeing the leather pieces... only question is.. is it worth ditching one of the pieces for a tier 6 part so to net the 4-piece set bonus from using tier 6 bracers - belt - boots ?
#7135SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
As was already nicely summarized by Myul and Genzou on page 277 of this thread, the difference is just 2 EP.

Anyway I know I'm going to wear leather, just as I'm doing now. I find stats on it more desirable. (Anyone else wished we could wear rouge T6?.. )
#7136SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bestpike
Guys id like to ask something. Why have we decided that S3 weapons are better than syphons of nathrezim? i thought weapon speed (and as the guide itself says) was the most important thing, and 0.2 seconds isnt something small. Only from the stormstrike damage, even if we assume it doesnt lead to a windfury proc, we get 2.5 more dps. So i was wondering... Maybe its the stats that the pvp weapons give? crit, hit etc
#7137SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Haven't you played a Shaman long enough to realize there is no one best stat, no one most important factor that, ignoring all else, will always result in the best dps?

Weapon DPS, weapon speed, weapon stats, weapon class (for orcs) all need to be properly balanced just like any other piece of gear. Simulations have shown the slow, slow Syphon beaten by Dragonstrike, RT, Talon and the S3 weapons -- all when calculated by different people with different stats, of course.

At T6, the S3 weapons ALMOST always win. Simulate it yourself, man! They're great weapons that make me wish I didn't hate arena so dang much.

My personal simulations seem to indicate that, all else being equal, each .1s a weapon is slower than 2.4s is worth around a .5% improvement in overall DPS. So a 2.8s weapon is going to be about 1% better overall DPS than a 2.6s weapon. The stats and weapon DPS on the VG weapons usually offer a larger benefit than that.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/16/08 at 4:13 PM.
#7138SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Patrik
Anyway I know I'm going to wear leather, just as I'm doing now. I find stats on it more desirable. (Anyone else wished we could wear rouge T6?.. )
We can...it's called season3 shaman pvp gear. jk sorry I felt inclined to make a rogue/rouge joke. The leather in sunwell is very, very nice! I am interested to see if they have plans of adding hunter/enh. shaman items to the sunwell vendor, because right now all the mail is just elemental gear
#7139SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
I think it's likely they just haven't added mail gear yet. This is all beta stuff, fun to talk about I guess but most of it's going to change so dramatically it's hardly theory fodder.
#7140SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
How good are the 2.5 speed weapons tho ? For someone without access to BT/MH or S3 weapons
#7141SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Really good. Try them in the sim.
#7142SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
ring enchants

I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, and sorry for asking, but is plus 4 to all stats superior or inferior to +2 weapon damage to rings?
#7143SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Leonina
How good are the 2.5 speed weapons tho ? For someone without access to BT/MH or S3 weapons
The answer was posted 11 posts ago: Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#7144SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Thanks! I just skimped that post, didn't read it I truly am sorry that I didn't take time to read it. Basically almost as good as S3, sweet! So, does this means they are the best to be gained from PvE?
#7145SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bragor
Originally Posted by poofypajamas
I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times, and sorry for asking, but is plus 4 to all stats superior or inferior to +2 weapon damage to rings?
Quoting this from the first post :

3.6.3 Enchants for the rest of your gear
Asked often enough that it ends up needing its own section. These are the enchants contributing the most to DPS. Stength is always preferred over AP due to the effects of BoK.

Helm - Glyph of Ferocity (34 AP, 16 Hit)
Shoulders - Greater Inscription of the Blade (15 Crit, 20 AP) or Greater Inscription of Vengeance (30 AP, 10 Crit)
Cloak - Greater Agility (+12 Agi) or Subtlety (-2% Threat) if you feel threat constrained
Chest - Exceptional Stats (+6 Str/Agi)
Bracers - Brawn (+12 Strength)
Gloves - Major Strength (+15 Strength)
Rings - (Enchanter Only) Stats (+4 Str/Agi)
Legs - Nethercobra Leg Armor (50 AP, 12 Crit)
Please read the initial post before posting stuff or just use the Search button.
#7146SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Originally Posted by Leonina
Thanks! I just skimped that post, didn't read it I truly am sorry that I didn't take time to read it. Basically almost as good as S3, sweet! So, does this means they are the best to be gained from PvE?
[Mounting Vengeance] should be better (and if you are raiding on your shaman also probably more accessible) offhand choice. I also hope that there will be mainhand weapon matching its model because it looks realy great and it would be shame to wield something else in mainhand.
#7147SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
Originally Posted by Malan
However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.

At entry raid level a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable.
These two statements seem to conflict to me. Is the OP saying that we should use Mongoose/Executioner or Double mongoose at the t6 level? Armor penetration becomes more accessible at these levels, but most of the gear I got from lootrank using Yo's doesn't have ArP except for a few choice pieces, and it's hardly stacked.

Using Yo's tells me that Mongoose/Executioner is better than Double Mongoose, and I think that's the point that OP is trying to make, but the wording seems confusing. If possible, could this section be clarified?
#7148SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?
#7149SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan
"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?
Maybe condensing it all as such:

At entry raid level, a shaman will probably gain more from dual Mongoose enchants. At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable; thus, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose at a pre-T6 level unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.
#7150SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
Looking through the new ptr loot, Shard of Contempt from the new heroic is stupidly good. I'm getting a bit over 130 AEP for the passive alone. Even assuming an ass-terrible proc rate of 0.5 ppm after specials, that's about 170 AEP total. Better than Dragonspine, and by extension every other trinket in WoW. Hopefully we'll see some data on the proc rate soon.

Speaking of expertise and loot, I can't make up my mind on Rising Tide vs the new badge fist for an orc. 1% crit and 3 weapon DPS vs 5 expertise and .1 speed. The deal-breakers seem to be whether the expertise applies to the offhand even if it's not an axe, and whether that graph Yo did holds up in actual gameplay (staggered weapon speeds > identical weapon speeds, so 2.5/2.6 > 2.6/2.6). WTB Fist to Axe Transmute so I don't have to figure this out.
#7151SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macar
Originally Posted by Lujaar
Looking through the new ptr loot, Shard of Contempt from the new heroic is stupidly good. I'm getting a bit over 130 AEP for the passive alone. Even assuming an ass-terrible proc rate of 0.5 ppm after specials, that's about 170 AEP total. Better than Dragonspine, and by extension every other trinket in WoW. Hopefully we'll see some data on the proc rate soon.

Speaking of expertise and loot, I can't make up my mind on Rising Tide vs the new badge fist for an orc. 1% crit and 3 weapon DPS vs 5 expertise and .1 speed. The deal-breakers seem to be whether the expertise applies to the offhand even if it's not an axe, and whether that graph Yo did holds up in actual gameplay (staggered weapon speeds > identical weapon speeds, so 2.5/2.6 > 2.6/2.6). WTB Fist to Axe Transmute so I don't have to figure this out.
A good idea would be to use Yo!'s simulator for this...
#7152SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
Lujaar: uhm, the trinket is already been discussed here, it's very high procrate, 45sec. internal cooldown. the AEP comes out at over 200.
#7153SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Malan
"nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration" is the key there.

But yah I've had 3 people now tell me that part is badly worded. Suggestions?

For entry raid enhancement shaman there will most likely be more gain from using double Mongoose; in order to make up for potential low crit rating if need be. In addition to potentially making up for lower crit rating, to have Mongoose/Executioner be viable you'd need an amount of ignore armor that is almost unobtainable to an enhancement shaman in the early stages of raiding. As you progress through endgame content more ignore armor gear will become available without sacrificing other stats to obtain it. At the this point Mongoose/Executioner becomes at least as viable, if not more so than double mongoose depending on how much ignore armor you have access to.

That's what I came up with D:
#7154SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:

[The Master's Treads]

This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina.

[Boots of the Endless Hunt]

This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5.

So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?

Thanks.
#7155SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Do you die alot ?
If the answer is yes, the stamina will help you.
If the answer is no the stamina has 0 net worth.
#7156SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Neithan
I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?
#7157SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Neithan
I was thinking of taking the T6 boots/belt/wrists (stupid vashj refusing to drop the belt), which T6 would you suggest to get to get 4pc set bonus? Seems like Shoulders so far, am I right?

yeah on page 276 Myul did a very nice AEP evaluation for all the pieces, and shoulders + the 70 AP bonus they give would yield 2 less AEP I believe it was, so they're looking like the best to wear to pick up the 4pc. The post can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/633050-post6916.html

sidenote:

[Band of Ruinous Delight] dropped for Vis Maior off the eredar twins a few hours ago.
Band of Ruinous Delight - Items - WOWDB

Very Similar stats to the Illidan ring; with crit rating instead of hit rating

Using imported "High Settings" on enhancer on PTR, I got ~178.AEP from the ring. Illidan ring being ~156, and the new JC ring being ~172
#7158SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Amagnus
I'm still trying to understand how to compare two similar pieces of gear. I completely understand EP but wonder what other factors are important when EP between two pieces is close (and in fact what close means in that respect). Here are two pieces of gear I have:

[The Master's Treads]

This item has about 111 EP. In addition, 191 Armor (Leather) along with +19 Stamina.

[Boots of the Endless Hunt]

This item has slightly less EP than the 1st at around 93. However, it's a mail item with 535 Armor. Stamina is the same as the 1st at +19 with +23 Intellect and 6 MP5.

So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?

Thanks.
Between 93 EP and 111 EP you have a ~20% difference that's what i would not call "slightly less", in fact it's a pretty huge difference (20% more EP is an entire tier difference, just compare T4 and T5 helms).

If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear).
#7159SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.

I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info
I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning.

So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on.

My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you.

Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes.
#7160SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
Between 93 EP and 111 EP you have a ~20% difference that's what i would not call "slightly less", in fact it's a pretty huge difference (20% more EP is an entire tier difference, just compare T4 and T5 helms).

If you have a very small difference (like <5%) between two item's EP then you can take into account 'comfort' stats like stamina or intel. As for mp5 since the recent changes to water shield it is now more worthless than ever. And if you pull aggro a few armor is not gonna save you (except maybe on karazhan trash), if you want increased survability dodge (and therefore agility) is a better life saver (I recently 'tanked' void reaver for the last 3% without dying thanks to my high dodge rate, a single hit would have totaly killed me even with tons of hp and full mail gear).
Thanks for your response. I ran Yo's simulator with the two boots and there was in fact a negligible difference in DPS. 658 with [Boots of the Endless Hunt] versus 661 with [The Master's Treads]. My suspicion based on the OP is that since most of the EP increase of [The Master's Treads] comes from hit rating, and my hit rating is already pretty high without the boots (166) that in this circumstance the extra EP doesn't translate into additional DPS. Thus, the other stats probably make it worthwhile.

Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense.

Thanks
#7161SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Aksing
Hey guys, i've been playing WoW for 2.5 years now and have spent 2.2 of those years playing a rogue in end game raiding. Combat Swords was my bread and butter. But a few months ago i decided to reroll enhancement shaman.

I was sick of not having one in the melee group. So i did some research, and ofc used this thread to get info
I am happy to say i'm loving it, and now that my gear has pretty much caught up to the rest of the guilds my own personal damage has gone up alot, and the melee dps overall in the raid is stunning.

So i guess thanks for converting me to enhancement :p And you'll be seeing aot more of me, as i was always a bit of a forum whore on my rogue, and seeing as this looks like THE place to discuss enhancement shaman stuff, i'll be an avid reader / contributor from now on.

My plans as far as Sunwell go are pretty much the same as most of you.

Belt, Bracers Boots & Shoulders of T6 then the leather stuff. Really is sick gear. And finally some enhancement weapons. Shame they're fists again. Would like to see some axes.
I don't understand why everyone is jumping at the 3 new/1 old thing. Going off of the list Myul made it's a 6ep gain going from Shadowmaster's to T6 and a 4ep loss going from Vashj belt to T6. The only piece that's really an "upgrade" is the bracers where you gain ~13, and even then there are a billion other things from the zone to pick up. Off the top of my head: LW BP, Mounting Vengeance, JC ring, and LW Gloves- 4 things that can drop from the first trash mob in the zone.

Do you really want to bog yourself down with 3 more items on top of that? -4(belt)+13(bracers)-14(shoulders)+6(boots)+68(69) vs -13(bracers)+58(shoulders)+4(belt)-6(boots)(43), is 26 ep worth 3 item slots when you can pick up 1 and be a mere 26ep behind? Almost every other slot is 50-100 ep better and unless you plan on picking up the entire zone uncontested. Use some common sense and see where your bigger upgrades are before you commit to 3 slots for 26 ep.
#7162SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Well, they're also from the first 3 bosses in Sunwell, which will be farmed quite a bit before the final gate opens. At 3 tokens each boss it won't be that long before they become cheap, barring extremely crappy drop luck. Oh and minor nitpick, you forgot the bit less then 70 ep from the 4 set bonus.
#7163SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
Originally Posted by Amagnus
Thanks for your response. I ran Yo's simulator with the two boots and there was in fact a negligible difference in DPS. 658 with [Boots of the Endless Hunt] versus 661 with [The Master's Treads]. My suspicion based on the OP is that since most of the EP increase of [The Master's Treads] comes from hit rating, and my hit rating is already pretty high without the boots (166) that in this circumstance the extra EP doesn't translate into additional DPS. Thus, the other stats probably make it worthwhile.

Yo's simulator was definitely helpful and re-reading the hit rating portion of the OP helped to make more sense.

Thanks
You have to remember that EP != DPS. If I was reading things right, the difference in EP was about 18 and I bet that the DPS value in Yo!'s sim is something around .2 - .25.

18 * .25 = 4.5 which is about the difference in the DPS you observed. This looks about right to me.
#7164SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aratheon
Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.
#7165SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
falonub
Originally Posted by Aratheon
Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.
Yes; I use both and both procs can occur at the same time.

edit after gehenna's post, yeah I took it at face value assuming both buffs up meaning both stack, but I'd assume so, and I hope so D:

Last edited by falonub : 02/18/08 at 1:17 AM.
#7166SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Gehenna
Originally Posted by falonub
Yes; I use both and both procs can occur at the same time.
That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.

Last edited by Gehenna : 02/17/08 at 9:32 PM.
#7167SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by rava
I don't understand why everyone is jumping at the 3 new/1 old thing. Going off of the list Myul made it's a 6ep gain going from Shadowmaster's to T6 and a 4ep loss going from Vashj belt to T6.
The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.
#7168SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Rob
The assumption is that it's going to be easier to get tokens than specific nonset drops, since each T6 and Sunwell boss will drop 3 set tokens/kill in 2.4.
Correct. It would be easier to get (as our rogues stated, that they are going for new items as well), plus its just theorycraft as we did not see any new boots/bracers/belt from SWP so far.
#7169SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Snowcold
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand
#7170SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3h4rr0d
Originally Posted by Aratheon
Hey guys.

I have a question about Armor Penetration: Do you have any information about wether or not the buff from [Madness of the Betrayer] and [Formula: Enchant Weapon - Executioner] do stack?
I've heard a rumor that Armor Penetration selfbuffs do not stack but cannot find any post, that would confirm this.
That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.

Originally Posted by Gehenna
That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.
Haste effect on the contrary can be tracked on paperdoll, and having ~100 haste myself, I can assure you that haste from mongoose does stack with passive haste (at least weapon speed changes on paperdoll...)
#7171SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Asirae
Originally Posted by Snowcold
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)

Just started to gear up and im Currently using [Malchazeen] as a offhand and [Fool's Bane] as a main hand. With this nice AV weekend got enough honor to buy a new main hand/offhand and i was hesitating between the gladiator S1 [Gladiator's Pummeler] / [Gladiator's Cleaver] or on the other hand [Gladiator's Right Ripper]you'll notice a slight difference between them since the fist weapon has a higher+ max damage but a lower min damage then the others but can only be used in main hand
Isn't that dagger just a little too fast? Try calculating the EP value of each.

off-hand: [Malchazeen]


I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons, but it is a work in progress: Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

I'd love to see a veteran EJ forum member here list weapons so I can compare and tweak my list.

Last edited by Asirae : 02/18/08 at 4:23 AM.
#7172SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Snowcold
Hello there,
im a bit new to this forum and recently fell in love with enhancement shaman ( thanks to this post partly)
And yet you clearly have not even read this post or you wouldnt be using that horrible horrible off hand.
#7173SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Snowcold
Tbh i have read the post, i just happened to have respec 2 days ago and didin't have much of a choice weapon wyse...


EDIT* took the ripper seems better according to your website thanks again for the help.

Last edited by Snowcold : 02/18/08 at 4:37 AM.
#7174SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
This doesn't matter. And the OP clearly states that you should run the sim to find this out for yourself.

Maybe the OP should have a "myth buster" section where these types of things is discarded?
#7175SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Honestly, it doesn't matter if it were in the OP or not. People will still ask these stupid questions =P.
#7176SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Honestly, it doesn't matter if it were in the OP or not. People will still ask these stupid questions =P.
#7177SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Originally Posted by Asirae
I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons, but it is a work in progress: Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
You know that what's best for you might not be best for another shamans? EP values change according to different stats.
#7178SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by h4rr0d
That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.
As of 2.4 it does actually show on the paperdoll. Highlight umm I think it was your hit rating, and it shows there. Atleast If I remember right. I'll try and log into PTR now and see if its been implemented yet.
#7179SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Yah, that's right. Hadn't noticed it myself, but just logged on to confirm it. Executioner stacks with armor penetration from your gear, but I don't have a Madness to check if that one stacks.
#7180SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
Originally Posted by h4rr0d
That rumor is probably based on fact that Executioner does not stack. Its stupid that APen is does not show anywhere, but i don't see any reason why it shouldn't stack if the items can proc together.
Ignore armor stat is displayed with hit rating in the new character pane in 2.4 build. I was looking forward to that one.

And I believe that Blizzard thinks two executioner procs stacking will be just too powerfull (-1680 ignore armor and then some passive armor penetration = scary numbers).

edit: argh, being slow
#7181SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lumb
It seems like whenever I run YO's simulator for more than 10,000 hours it always freezes up on me. How long should it take to complete, or is that entirely dependant on my processor speed?
#7182SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Amagnus
So, [The Master's Treads] has more EP but overall is it a superior piece of gear? I don't have mana issues too often but it seems like the additional armor has some benefit when I'm a bit squishy at this point.

In sum, should one always base gear selection factors on EP or are there times when other factors (like armor, intellect, MP5, etc.) should be considered when EP is close. Obviously if two pieces of gear have the same EP these additional factors would make one piece superior. How big of a difference in EP is necessary before one would pass up these additional features?
Additional armor has almost no benefit. For one, you should never be hit by any mob that does physical damage; most of the damage you take will be AoE magic for which armor is useless. Second, the difference between a shaman in ALL mail and a shaman in ALL leather is something like 10-15% DR and the difference between swapping out a single piece of mail for a single piece of leather is like 1% DR. Not negligible, but from a healer's perspective hardly noticeable.

Stamina is extremely useful, up to the point that you have enough for your healers to be able to keep you alive. Beyond that, it has little value aside from slightly de-stressing your healers. I keep a set of high(er) stam gear around for helping out new healers, but my raiding gear has 7800 health and I'd gladly sacrifice 800-1000 of that for more DPS.

When it comes to EP: I will take an upgrade that is ONE EP better than what I have, if it's going to get burnt otherwise. I will actively seek any upgrade that's 10 or more EP better than what I have. 90 EP vs 100 EP doesn't seem like a lot, but it's 2.5 DPS. Make that trade off on every armor slot, and you've just lost 30+ dps. If you wear

I almost never look at the other stats. Some items -- [Gauntlets of Sniping] vs [Trickster's Stickyfingers] (a 5 EP difference for me) -- are so close, I can almost convince myself it's worth the negligible survivability to pick mail. But these are rare, and I am aware that I am gimping myself.
#7183SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Asirae
I'm trying to compile a list of 'best' enhancement shaman weapons.
Please stop. Shaman DPS is a feedback system and the "best" weapons will vary dramatically by your EP, which changes every time you add an upgrade or change buffs you receive in raid. I dislike the concept of a "set" EP for T4/5/6 because this implies a level of homogeneity that does not exist. These are (I guess) useful from a theoretical standpoint, but bad when dealing with reality.

Shamans need to be mindful of this. A static list does not help them get there, it just reinforces a false assumption.

As an example -- a while back, [Fool's Bane] was about a 20 point upgrade for my offhand. Last I simulated it, it was nearly dead even -- because in the meantime, I'd added a lot of crit, hit rating, haste rating & armor pen, and the value of offhand weapon DPS went up.

What's more, what is important is not the BEST weapon, it's "is this weapon upgrade I am presented with worth the DKP/Honor/Grind cost" -- a question which can only be answered for an individual's gear. Malchazeen may well be an upgrade for some. It should also be a cue to farm up a better weapon.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/18/08 at 12:59 PM.
#7184SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Originally Posted by Lumb
It seems like whenever I run YO's simulator for more than 10,000 hours it always freezes up on me. How long should it take to complete, or is that entirely dependant on my processor speed?
Highly dependent on your computer and what else you're doing at the time. 10,000 hours seems to take about 5 min on a pretty decent system. If all you want is a DPS check, then don't select the EP option as that adds a lot of extra calculations.
#7185SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grundar
I have been thinking about this too, especially in regard to killing priests and pallys. Is there a way to tie a purge in to the stormstrike timer so that the purge comes right before the stormstrike?



Originally Posted by rava
It really chooses randomly. Yes there is a chance that it will purge instead of SS.

I'm not 100% positive on this, but the macro you want is conditional(if/then) and not allowed as of whatever patch was before TBC. Two buttons is some harsh work, though!

/cast Stormstrike
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

It's not that complicated.
#7186SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Out of curiosity I just opened 2 LootRank.com windows and input our Entry, Mid, and High end EP values into each one, excluded PvP items and set it to display leather only. With the exception of a few slots (low end placed cloaks and necks slightly different) the ordering of the top 5 'best items' in each slot was identical across the board. (Each slot generally had 1 item shifted slightly above/below one other item, but all of them agreed on what the top item was in each slot)

I'm questioning if we're going about this the right way. Clearly these values are not changing so radically between tiers of gear so that the best items are radically different depending on what you have equipped at the time. Are we missing something here?
#7187SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Malan
I'm questioning if we're going about this the right way. Clearly these values are not changing so radically between tiers of gear so that the best items are radically different depending on what you have equipped at the time. Are we missing something here?
Well, the problem with this test is that the "best in game" stuff isn't what an individual cares about ranking. It's immediate upgrades. There isn't a lot of "best" gear, it all comes from the same two dungeons, and it's already been mentioned that at T5 levels certain upgrades (the Talon is what I'm thinking of) actually outperform certain T6 upgrades. The BEST stuff outdoes them both.

The problem with evaluating the BEST is that the best isn't what's accessible in most cases. You really care about what's better, right now, for me. Caring ONLY about the best leads to DKP hoarding and other antisocial, DPS-nerfing behaviors.
#7188SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Weem
Originally Posted by Malan
Out of curiosity I just opened 2 LootRank.com windows and input our Entry, Mid, and High end EP values into each one, excluded PvP items and set it to display leather only. With the exception of a few slots (low end placed cloaks and necks slightly different) the ordering of the top 5 'best items' in each slot was identical across the board. (Each slot generally had 1 item shifted slightly above/below one other item, but all of them agreed on what the top item was in each slot)

I'm questioning if we're going about this the right way. Clearly these values are not changing so radically between tiers of gear so that the best items are radically different depending on what you have equipped at the time. Are we missing something here?
If I remember correctly, from editing my Loot Rank as my values changed, the order of the items were virtually identical, as you also witnessed.
#7189SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
But that's what I just described Toots - other than 1 or 2 items being listed differently, the order of upgrades using each of those values was identical.

Leave DKP and loot grabbing behaviors out of this. I'm not talking about how a guild decides loot order here at all. I'm talking about how we're deciding to evaluate gear stats and apply weights. I'm questioning the model that we're using.

The funny thing is that MaxDPS.com is producing the exact same lists.
#7190SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
The new Sunwell weapons that are becoming available, and the seeming lack of an axe to them has got me mulling over the actual impact the orc racial has on our weapon choice, or in other words, what is the actual value of Weapon expertise.

The best way seems to be calculating them into Weapon EP, considering it only affects that actual hand you're wielding the weapon in. The formula's I've come up with are these:

MH W-EP = 2/3 * 20 * Exp-EP
OH W-EP = 1/3 * 20 * Exp-EP

The 20 times expertise EP speaks for itself, that's just the EP value of the 5 expertise the racial gives. The 2/3 and 1/3 are based on the fact that the main hand does double the damage of the offhand, so the damage spread is 2/3 and 1/3 respectively.

Enhancer does the awesome job of already calculating W-EP, so just tag on the calculated added EP from the orc racial and you should be able to compare them with non axes for a quick and dirty check if something is actually better or not.

Anyway, my math has been proven to be wrong in the past, so I wanted to run it past you guys.

Another thing that sprung to my mind is because of the unique mechanics of the racial, is how much of an impact having a non axe would have on increasing main hand windfury procs. To my knowledge dodges can't proc windfury, so in essence with your offhand getting 1.25% more dodges you should force your main hand windfury ratio up a small notch, I doubt this will have a huge impact on dps, but it might actually be worth considering. I have no idea how to go about calculating this though.
#7191SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Leave DKP and loot grabbing behaviors out of this. I'm not talking about how a guild decides loot order here at all. I'm talking about how we're deciding to evaluate gear stats and apply weights. I'm questioning the model that we're using.
Well, we kind of already went over this discussion a while back. Disquette, Tornhoof, and others had introduced a way for us to obtain AEP values, and Yo! came in and said that hey, these aren't really static values, you guys shouldn't use this system. As I recall, I and Sebudai both said something like "well, it doesn't matter because the best in slot items are the same for everyone regardless", but since Yo's sim makes it so easy to get customized EP values, it makes sense to use that and then you will choose the right upgrades along the way as well.
#7192SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
Yah I know we've touched on it before... what I'm getting at though is that I think we're dancing around the solution here. If just about any (valid) result from the sim is going to produce (nearly) the same results in gear choices, doesn't that imply an underlying relationship that we're missing? It seems to me that we're about 1 step away from the 'grand unified theory of enhance shaman' that would give us 1 set of relationships that would work for everything.
#7193SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Stopokingme
MH W-EP = 2/3 * 20 * Exp-EP
OH W-EP = 1/3 * 20 * Exp-EP

Anyway, my math has been proven to be wrong in the past, so I wanted to run it past you guys.
Your math is right (I posted the same answer a few pages back when someone posed the question).
Another thing that sprung to my mind is because of the unique mechanics of the racial, is how much of an impact having a non axe would have on increasing main hand windfury procs. To my knowledge dodges can't proc windfury, so in essence with your offhand getting 1.25% more dodges you should force your main hand windfury ratio up a small notch, I doubt this will have a huge impact on dps, but it might actually be worth considering. I have no idea how to go about calculating this though.
Interesting idea, sim it.
#7194SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Yah I know we've touched on it before... what I'm getting at though is that I think we're dancing around the solution here. If just about any (valid) result from the sim is going to produce (nearly) the same results in gear choices, doesn't that imply an underlying relationship that we're missing?
It is not surprising that the sim gives similar results in gear choices given different starting points. The "underlying relationship" that you refer to is, simply put, shaman combat mechanics. The sim is using those to give an answer.
It seems to me that we're about 1 step away from the 'grand unified theory of enhance shaman' that would give us 1 set of relationships that would work for everything.
Well, we had a lot of people trying to find a "closed form" model that could accept parameters like AP, Crit, Hit as inputs and give DPS as output. You can do that *reasonably* well, which is what MaxDPS.com is doing. Tornhoof also produced something, and we had someone else coming in here who wanted to use a Cobb-Douglas function. There are currently a few problems with this approach. First, it's not easy to add extra procs like Mongoose, Stonebreaker Totem, or Madness of the Betrayer to this equation. Each variable introduces another level of complexity. Second, the best models produce something that appears to be less accurate than the margin of error in the simulation. Given the choice between the two, it appears that for now, simming is the way to go.
#7195SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Malan
What I'm getting at is that I think the sim can provide us with what we're looking for.
#7196SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Low Life
While I was checking Lootrank with my own values compared to the T6 level values presented in OP, I noticed a trend there. While a lot of items were at the same spot on both rankings, items with either haste rating or armor penetration varied immensely. Best example would be shoulders, where with T6 values [Swiftstrike Shoulders] ranked as the second best shoulders currently in game (4th overall), they were only 8th best with my values. A few posts back someone also mentioned [Gauntlets of Sniping] being slightly worse for him than [Trickster's Stickyfingers], while for me they're actually 17EP higher.

This made me think about items with these stats and choosing between two possible upgrades. If Item1 has 150EP with pure Agi/AP/Crit and Item2 has 140EP with AP/Crit and Haste rating on it, would Item2 actually turn out better in the long run, when I manage to find upgrades for my other slots? This would probably change my current "final" paperdoll with upgrades from ZA/Kara/Badges by quite a bit.

edit: My Lootrank
T6 Lootrank

The 2.4 items mess things up a bit there..

Last edited by Low Life : 02/18/08 at 4:59 PM.
#7197SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shalas
Using the T6 item values and lootrank, the order is almost always exactly what I would expect it to be with absolutely no knowledge about enhancement shaman at all. It's mostly sorted by item level, with exceptions exactly where you'd expect them: items with sockets appearing above items without sockets, items with more stats appearing above items with fewer stats, and items with caster stats appearing under items without caster stats. Take this lootrank search. If you sorted the top 5 items in each slot by ilvl with sockets giving +15 ilvls, one caster stat giving -15 ilvls and two giving -20 ilvls, you'd get the same best item in all but three slots, and only 11 items even change position.

The theoretical optimal items change significantly as your gear changes, but the items available do not. The optimal actual items don't change because there's very few items that have the budget spent in a decent way on stats that do anything at all. Does it really matter if hit or crit is worth more when the item selection is so bad that the third best hat has 28 int on it? I don't think there's any magical relevation to be found other than that the itemization available is really so bad that you're more concerned with finding items that actually spend all of thier points on useful stats and sockets than finding items which spend all of thier points of the right stats.
#7198SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
♦ Malan
Except I can get almost the same lists on LootRank if I input 1 (one) for all the values except Armor Penetration.

Last edited by Malan : 02/18/08 at 5:01 PM.
#7199SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
Except I can get almost the same lists on LootRank if I input 1 (one) for all the values except Armor Penetration.
This result is not surprising, though. The primary stats (everything to do with DPS except armor pen) all have the same "cost" on "item budget". To item designers, 1 STR = 1 AGI = 1 crit rating = 1 hit rating = 1 haste rating = 1 expertise rating = 2 AP. There is a second-order effect based on an exponential penalty for items which "stack" a stat, but we would not expect that to affect our results. If the game is properly designed, all these stats should impact us equally. However, there are some peculiarities to enhancement shaman mechanics, so for example, hit rating is worth more if you don't have 9% and less if you do. Kings makes strength and agility worth a bit more. Agility confers some "survival" benefits in addition to DPS benefits, so it's worth a bit less than crit rating. Again, we are basically discussing something months old here, Yo! said "well, if you want an EP system Blizzard already gave you one, it's called the item budget". The issue is that the game isn't perfectly balanced and that enhancement shamans do have some peculiarities, so the interesting choices are where the base stat values don't quite work out.
#7200SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3♦ Shalas
Assuming you mean all melee stats, that's pretty much my point. There's so few items that you can equip that spend itemization points on anything useful that choosing an optimal item is never an option. Once you get to raid gear, most of the time you aren't choosing between an item with the right melee stats or the wrong melee stats, you're choosing between items with the wrong melee stats, items with no sockets, items with the wrong melee stats that are a lower ilvl, and items with int/mana regen. Which stats you want only matters when you actually have a choice, but most of the time items with the right stats aren't even an option. There are zero items in the top 5 for each slot which have the right stats at all, much less the right stats in the correct proportions, which makes worrying about what those correct proportions are somewhat pointless most of the time.
#7201SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhagok
Isn´t the simplest answer to this that the itemdesign is the solution to this?

I see at the moment, as I´m discussing some of my gear choices with a fury warrior friend of mine, that some gear is simply the best ingame period. There are very few items that are so close to each other that EP values can make a difference there. For example Deadly Cuffs vs. Insidious Bands. There it is important how you weigh things to see which one is best. But you simply can´t have values that will make any head better then CVoS or Midnight Chestguard.

Some simple math Nethershadow Tunic vs. Midnight Chestguard. You gain 36 Agi and 6Hit vs 46 Crit and 20 AP
Given the fact that Agi will never outperform Crit and just for the sake of Math we will set Agi = Crit you have 6 Hit <-> 10 crit 20 AP

Now only if Hit had a value > 6 !!!!! will the Nethershadow Tunic outperform the Midnight Chest.
The regions in which our EP values for stats change are about .2 to .3 maybe?
So there is simply no way that this will have an impact on TOP END gear whatsoever (except some special cases like the bracers maybe)
However I think that EP are still a nice way for an Enhancer to gear up and make the right choices on the way to receiving those CVoS and Midnight Chestguards!
#7202SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Well, the two most variable stats, in my experience, are hit rating and crit rating/agi. Changes in these two seem to dramatically mix up what gear is best at a given level. (Makes sense -- armor pen, haste, strength, weapon dps, etc are almost always great).

Look at the gear for max iLvl 141 as I adjust these two stats to the T5 and T6 levels (all else the same):
Agi 1.8 CrR 2 HitR 1.4
Agi 1.69 CrR 1.74 HitR 1.69

Both the rankings and the best-in-class selections are pretty different. Yeah, you see a lot of the same gear in each -- but if you're a holder of one of those pieces, looking for an easy upgrade, accuracy of stat weights is important.

For example, I am considering whether it's worth more to farm badges for [Dory's Embrace] or farm gold & primals to get a tailor to make me a [Vengeance Wrap]. Depending on my stats, the one may be better than the other by 20 EP.

Course, once you add in Illidan gear, your top option is always the same.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/18/08 at 6:43 PM.
#7203SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Expertice value for each hand from Yo's sim.
2 *2.6 100dps weapons on both hands.

0 expertice: 1152dps(base value)
100 expertice for both hands: 1223dps(71dps gain)
100 expertice only for mh: 1204 dps(52dps gain = 0.73 = 73%)
100 expertice only for hh: 1173 dps(19dps gain = 0.27 = 27%)

Now if you wait for max. 3s if WF is cd.
0 expertice: 1169dps(base value)
100 expertice for both hands: 1239dps(70dps gain)
100 expertice only for mh: 1222 dps(53dps gain = 0.76 = 76%)
100 expertice only for hh: 1186 dps(187ps gain = 0.24 = 24%)


Stormstrike mechanic will boost mh expertice value and inflate oh expertice value.
#7204SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Not coincidentally, 76% and 24% are approximately equivalent to the relative ratios of the weapon DPS EP values we figured out a while back. (9.03+2.70 = 11.73, 9.03/11.73 = 77%) Anyway, those numbers should be more accurate than the 66/33 ratio and they also show that a strategy of using a non-axe offhand to get more MH WF procs is not beneficial.
#7205SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan
But that's what I just described Toots - other than 1 or 2 items being listed differently, the order of upgrades using each of those values was identical.

Leave DKP and loot grabbing behaviors out of this. I'm not talking about how a guild decides loot order here at all. I'm talking about how we're deciding to evaluate gear stats and apply weights. I'm questioning the model that we're using.

The funny thing is that MaxDPS.com is producing the exact same lists.
So if you use low/mid/high EP values, you get a similar breakdown over all/t5/t4 gear?

I tend to notice a similar thing for elemental gear, excepting when I start using my mana adjustment values.
#7206SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
]

Both the rankings and the best-in-class selections are pretty different. Yeah, you see a lot of the same gear in each -- but if you're a holder of one of those pieces, looking for an easy upgrade, accuracy of stat weights is important.
But they really aren't that different. In each slot maybe 1-2 items are shifted around a little bit, the most dramatic being in the Shoulders where the Swiftrike plummet to 10th place from 2nd, but you also changed the value of haste compared to everything else a LOT, so frankly I think your example is quite tainted anyways.
#7207SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Gehenna
That isn't exactly an answer to his question. My nature totem stacks with hunter NR Buff, but the effects do not stack.

In addition, i heard similar rumors, but about mongoose. I've been told mongoose haste does not stack with haste from passive abilities, but I've only heard this from one person.
I just tested and mongoose does stack with my passive 2.35% from the Fists of Mukoa.

I also tested the Madness of the Betrayer with passive -armor, and it stacks as well. Sadly I don't have Executioner so I can't check if the three of them stack.
#7208SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3punkrockrobot
Has anyone seen the new Badge Items?
What do you guys think of the new leather and Mail items?

The Fist MH and OH but both are 2.50 and both are 103.0 (Damage per sec). I was wondering how much would this effect dps compared to 2.60speed weapons and WF procs.
#7209SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot
Has anyone seen the new Badge Items?
What do you guys think of the new leather and Mail items?

The Fist MH and OH but both are 2.50 and both are 103.0 (Damage per sec). I was wondering how much would this effect dps compared to 2.60speed weapons and WF procs.
If you read a couple of posts before you ask you'd have seen that the new badge items has indeed been seen, theorycrafted, EP-valued and tested in simulations.

Yo!s simulator is your friend.
#7210SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Redback
Castsequence Shock Rotation?

Anyone use a cast sequence macro for one button shock rotation?

I have been using this and it works quite well.

/castsequence reset=12,combat,target Flame Shock, Earth Shock
#7211SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhahk
I remember reading at the beginning of this last patch that Relentless Earthstorm Diamond was bugged and did not work with white damage anymore. I also noticed something else with white damage that made me think it was all bugged (that is my crit rate against a high resilience person remaining same as on character screen for white damage but not for windfury/stormstrike). In light of this, I haven't been using my T4 helm with the Diamond in it, instead opting for the Coif of the Jungle Stalker with three 8 strength gems in it. I use MaxDPS.com religiously in my pursuit of better gear to obtain, and through it's advice have everything (with rare exception) gemmed with 8 strength gems and cannot even use the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond in any case.

The reason of my posting is basically, how wrong am I? It seemed a reasonable conclusion at the time, though I wonder if all of the facts are straight.
#7212SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Unless i remember wrong RED was fixed long ago. Relying on maxdps religiously is not that safe option really. You should do your own comparison spreadsheet if have time using personal values from Yo's simulator.
#7213SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Wraithlin
I suspect the loot ranking we see is an artifact of itemization.
In particular almost all the "best in slot" items are rogue leather which have the dps stats split between crit,agi,hit and AP. Crit and agi will always have a fixed AEP relationship, and items heavy with hit are strictly inferior to those light on hit at any reasonable set of AEP values. So immediately you get a ranking where items with alot of hit will sink to the bottom, everything else will move up and down at relatively the same rate because the AEP for crit and agi are correlated.

The key here is that the value of crit,agi, and hit tend to move very little relative to each other, usually less than 0.3 aep difference. Converting 20 crit to 20 hit is more often than not less than a 5AEP difference at any itemization level which is quickly absorbed by ilevels, so the relative rankings stay the same; items with alot of hit will stay at the bottom of the pile.

The value of these stats relative to strength is much more dynamic, but there is no good itemiszation (pre 2.4) which actually has any strength, so this does not impact the rankings. If more of the loot had str on it, then you would see a much greater fluctuation in the ranking of items short on str as the vales of crit/agi/hit fluctuate. Armor pen is another good example, it tends to change from 0.22 to 0.25, but even on an item of 200Armor Pen thats a less than 5 AEP change, so again its absorbed by the ilevels of various tiers.

The one stat that does show great variance is expertise, but it is very sparingly applied and applied generally as an "extra" stat and generally only on ilevel items; this goes for haste as well in many cases. So although those items with significant haste and Expertise may show a wide variance in their AEP worth at each gear level, they tend to already be at the top because of their ilevel and the fact their itemization is already spread between more stats and thus more efficiently.

A low level (T4) item with Str, AP and expertise would really move up and down the loot ranking alot at various gear levels; but that itemization does not yet exist.

Last edited by Wraithlin : 02/19/08 at 6:43 AM.
#7214SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Expertice value for each hand from Yo's sim.
2 *2.6 100dps weapons on both hands.

0 expertice: 1152dps(base value)
100 expertice for both hands: 1223dps(71dps gain)
100 expertice only for mh: 1204 dps(52dps gain = 0.73 = 73%)
100 expertice only for hh: 1173 dps(19dps gain = 0.27 = 27%)

Now if you wait for max. 3s if WF is cd.
0 expertice: 1169dps(base value)
100 expertice for both hands: 1239dps(70dps gain)
100 expertice only for mh: 1222 dps(53dps gain = 0.76 = 76%)
100 expertice only for hh: 1186 dps(187ps gain = 0.24 = 24%)


Stormstrike mechanic will boost mh expertice value and inflate oh expertice value.
Alright thanks a lot for this information. I figured SS would have some impact on offhand value of expertise, but didn't think it was this much.
#7215SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Wraithlin:
"A low level (T4) item with Str, AP and expertise would really move up and down the loot ranking alot at various gear levels; but that itemization does not yet exist."

[Clefthoof Hide Leggings] I want more this kind piece of jewelry. About ~218ep.

Edit: Expertice was feral skill rating. So Blizzard didnt intentionally desing these. Just like [Edgemaster's Handguards] was designed to crap and luckily turned twink diamond.
Edit2: link show old stats.

Edgemaster's Handguards
Equip: Improves hit rating by 19 (2.4%@49).
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 17 (8.6%@49).

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/19/08 at 11:56 AM.
#7216SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Well those were crap prior to the expertise change though, they had dagger skill or feral skill, something like that.
#7217SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hexxus
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot
Has anyone seen the new Badge Items?
What do you guys think of the new leather and Mail items?

The Fist MH and OH but both are 2.50 and both are 103.0 (Damage per sec). I was wondering how much would this effect dps compared to 2.60speed weapons and WF procs.
Using Mid-Level Raid EPs

Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP


Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Main Hand
180-335 Damage
Speed 2.50
103.0 damage per second (930.09 ep)
+23 agi (46 ep)
haste rating +21 (31.08 ep)
attkpwr +44 (44 ep)
TOTAL: 1051.17 ep

Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality
Off Hand
180-335 Damage
Speed 2.50
103.0 damage per second (381.1 ep)
haste +23 (34.04 ep)
hit +21 (35.49 ep)
attkpwr +44 (44 ep)
TOTAL: 494.63 ep

DPS values were using 2.6 EPs, which is obviously wrong.
1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP
DPS values are discussed here: http://elitistjerks.com/517715-post4039.html.
2.5 values should be less than the 2.6 values. But I'm not sure by how much.
#7218SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
If I calculate new wDps(post 2.3 mentall quickness change) Ep how many shock per 2 minute is good avarage?
This will lower wDps Ep values about 10-15%.

Edit: without reverbation 18shock/2min is absolute max when prior SS. I think 15 would be avarage. I suck at shocking when twisting (only 12-14/2min)

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/19/08 at 5:53 PM.
#7219SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
how many shock per 2 minute is good avarage?
If you're doing theoretical numbers, then 24 or 20 are the correct amount of shocks in terms of true potential DPS.

A few weeks ago, our new enhancement shaman did 15.6 shocks per 120 seconds on Teron. The other fights he was present for were Illidan and council, interrupting priest, neither of which is good for counting shocks.
#7220SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Rapparee
If you're doing theoretical numbers, then 24 or 20 are the correct amount of shocks in terms of true potential DPS.

A few weeks ago, our new enhancement shaman did 15.6 shocks per 120 seconds on Teron. The other fights he was present for were Illidan and council, interrupting priest, neither of which is good for counting shocks.
Looking at a few old personal WWS reports of Nalorakk, I find that in practice, 15 (give or take 2 depending on luck and other factors) is a good number for me, too, due to overlapping GCDs and occasionally waiting to push any buttons until WF CD is up.
#7221SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
Rather than focusing on a "rotation" (ie: you do this stuff in this order), would borrowing the affliction lock/shadow priest's "priority queue" system be better?

Ie: SS with WF coming off cooldown > SS > Flame SHock > Earth shock, with totem recasts put in there somewhere.

So if WF is coming off cooldown, and SS is up, wait and use SS. If not, SS if its up. Then Flame shock if the dot has expired, otherwise Earth shock if the shock CD is up
#7222SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Wraithlin
I already use that style for twisting, simply because if you delay for WF you cant hit anything close to a repeatable rotation. My priority order is usually: SS>WF (if the buff has or will expire)>FS(if the dot has run down)>ES>GoA. If SS has coolddown but WF has not Ill go on downt he priority chain until WF is off CD.

Im floating at around 1k DPS which is a little off my theoretical max but not a massive amount (Yo's sim puts me around 1100 theoretical max, I have hit 1140 on FLK if I dont twist).

Last edited by Wraithlin : 02/19/08 at 7:49 PM.
#7223SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
Executioner and [Madness of the Betrayer] proc do stack, I've just tried it on PTR. 1140 armor penetration combined.
#7224SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Renly
Hey,

Basically I can't get Yo!s calculator to work. I've searched the thread, and all the suggestions are to update to the latest version of Java. I've done this twice, and when I go to the calculator There's just a box with a broken graphics icon.

I'm running Firefox 2.0 and the latest version of Java I can find for Mac OS 10.4.

Alternately, is there another calculator/simulator as widely used as Yo!s? That's the only one I see mentioned with consistency

Thanks!

EDIT: fixed a typo
#7225SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Macar
Originally Posted by Renly
Hey,

Basically I can't get Yo!s calculator to work. I've searched the thread, and all the suggestions are to update to the latest version of Java. I've done this twice, and when I go to the calculator There's just a box with a broken graphics icon.

I'm running Firefox 2.0 and the latest version of Java I can find for Mac OS 10.4.

Alternately, is there another calculator/simulator as widely used as Yo!s? That's the only one I see mentioned with consistency

Thanks!

EDIT: fixed a typo
I am also having trouble to get it to work on Windows Vista, latest Java client and Mozilla Firefox. In Internet Explorer it works though. My suggestion is to try another web browser for his task.
#7226SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
New shoulders found from the twins, seem to be almost on par with the feral druid shoulders aep wise. Interesting note is it's a piece of mail with 0 intellect on it.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ldenforest.jpg

Pretty decent itemization. 279 ep compared to:

[Demontooth Shoulderpads] 286
[Shoulderpads of Vehemence] 261
#7227SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Post 2.3 wDPS ep.


I have calculated these values from Yo's sim using 15shock/2minute.
I used 2*2.6 weapons.

Mh wDPS ep: 7.4
Oh wDPS ep: 3.6


Edit: These numbers slighly scale with gear -+ 1%.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 02/20/08 at 9:29 AM.
#7228SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Renly
@ Pitbuller: I like your sig


Oh, and to people who are curious, the issue I posted about a few posts ago persists when I try using Safari instead of Firefox...I'll try IE tomorrow at work. I refuse to put such an evil browser on this computer.
#7229SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vokzhen
On Malan's statweight crisis:
It's really to be expected. There are a set number of items that drop in T5 and T6 instances, and for the most part can very clearly be split into "hunter stuff," "decent stuff" (generally lacking sockets and so on), and "good stuff." Changing stat weights is not going to make a hunter item suddenly good, nor a good item suddenly only decent. There are too few items with large enough differences between them (both ilvl wise and just how the points are spent) that it's fairly clear which items are best and which aren't.

Where this system really picks apart items is while still gearing up. Many people are or will be at the gear level that they must choose between Kara gear, badges gear, ZA gear, and possibly early T5 gear. There are so many items available at that level, often not so clearly identifiable as "best" or "decent," because people's gear itself is so different at that level.

Take cloaks, for a very clear example: Vengeance Wrap, Cloak of Fiends, Dory's Embrace, Cloak of Darkness, and Black-Iron Battlecloak are all available in post-Kara raiding, and none are clearly better or worse than another. With personal EP weights, it's much easier to determine which is the best cloak. However, it's not logical to expect that, with the limited number of T6-level cloaks (one), that any of them would compete. It's always going to be polarized with SMDestroyer's at the top, and others on down, no matter how much you mess with the numbers.
#7230SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Draenorm
New shoulders found from the twins, seem to be almost on par with the feral druid shoulders aep wise. Interesting note is it's a piece of mail with 0 intellect on it.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ldenforest.jpg

Pretty decent itemization. 279 ep compared to:

[Demontooth Shoulderpads] 286
[Shoulderpads of Vehemence] 261
The other day I was thinking about the fact that our item budget gets messed up by having STA + INT on items, and what Blizzard might do to stop us from preferring rogue items. The new Skyshatter pieces are fairly well itemized, but still some of them end up devoting excessive amounts of budget to non-DPS stats ([Skyshatter Greaves] has 43 sta and 20 int, for example.) I figured that we will see more items like the one you posted (which I consider analogous to [Shoulders of the Hidden Predator]) and more items with just INT and no STA (which I would consider analogous to [Softstep Boots of Tracking]). It will be interesting to see if that prediction comes true.

Last edited by Rob : 02/20/08 at 11:17 AM.
#7231SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hodor
Looking at the Tier 4/5/6 values on the front page and comparing them (a bit off because Tier 4 apparently doesn't include BoK, so I took the strength and agility values without agility and for the Tier 6 agility value subtracted 10% which should be close to its value without BoK):
                     Tier 4                   Tier 5                  Tier 6
Attack Power         1 EP                      1 EP                    1 EP 
Strength             2 EP                      2 EP                    2 EP
Agility              1.74 EP                   1.8 EP                  1.52 EP
Crit Rating          1.97 EP                   2 EP                    1.74 EP
Hit Rating           1.34 EP                   1.4 EP                  1.69 EP
Haste Rating         1.28 EP                   1.48 EP                 1.82 EP
Armor Penetration    0.22 EP                   0.28 EP                 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating                                                       3.18 EP
Lets look at the percentage difference between them (using Tier 4 value as a base line):
                     Tier 4                   Tier 5                 Tier 6
Attack Power          1 EP                     100                    100 
Strength              2 EP                     100                    100
Agility               1.74 EP                  103                    87
Crit Rating           1.97 EP                  102                    88
Hit Rating            1.34 EP                  104                    126
Haste Rating          1.28 EP                  115                    142
Armor Penetration     0.22 EP                  127                    159
Expertise Rating                                                      3.18 EP
Looking at the difference we can see the following:
Comparing Tier 4 and 5: Relatively small difference in haste rating (+15%), big difference in armor penetration (+27%)
Comparing Tier 4 and 6: Relatively small difference in Agility and crit rating (-13% and -12 %), big differences between hit rating (+26%), haste rating (+42%), and armor penetration (+59%).
I can't compare Expertise Rating because there aren't any values for Tier 4 and 5 in the opening post.

So from that we can gather the following: The EP of AP, Strength, Agility and crit rating stay relatively close to each other. Hit rating and haste rating only change in a significant way when you reach the Tier 6 EP. Armor Penetration sees the biggest difference in EP.

It would be nice to see what values were entered to get the Tier 4/5/6 EP in order to check the following:
Why do those EP that change signigicantly doso, is it because of all the values or only because of one or two values (for example the change in Armor Penetration could quite possibly be because more armor penetration was being worn when getting the Tier 6 EP in comparison to Tier 4/5).

What I'm trying to get at is the following: Would it be possible to assign a fixed EP for those stats that stay relatively unchanged, while only checking a few stats for those that change significantly. For example saying (arbitrary numbers): " Armor Penetration has a value of 0.22 EP. For every 100 Armor Penetration you are wearing add 0.05 to its EP." And so on.

Note: this is relatively unpolished and not entirely thought through and there are probably many things wrong with it. However, I first want to see if this approach is even worth pursuing before sticking a lot of work into it.

The goal of this approach would be to make it easier to get your EP values (since they do change to a certain amount accordingto your equipment). Because from experience (and reading this thread) it is quite obvious that many people have problems getting their own EP values. In addition they make a relatively small difference in item selection (as Malan noted, except for a few items, changing the EP values doesn't change the sorting of the items effectiveness too much). Using this approach could yield something along the lines of only having to check/enter a few numbers/values/stats in order to sort items correctly (for example only checking how much Armor Penetration I have in order to correctly wigh Armor Penetration).

Feel free to tear this post apart.
#7232SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Hodor
It would be nice to see what values were entered to get the Tier 4/5/6 EP in order to check the following:
Why do those EP that change signigicantly doso, is it because of all the values or only because of one or two values (for example the change in Armor Penetration could quite possibly be because more armor penetration was being worn when getting the Tier 6 EP in comparison to Tier 4/5).
That's pretty much exactly what happens, the more armor penetration you put on, the more valuable it becomes in the simulator.

I think you're hitting what I'm saying - that there might be more of a baseline valuation that could be used and adjusted from.

[e] http://elitistjerks.com/647684-post30.html Thoughts on this from the Math-magicians out there?

Last edited by Malan : 02/20/08 at 3:06 PM.
#7233SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lumb
Is it me or is Yo!'s website currently down?
#7234SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
He appears to be suggesting just creating a lookup table for Flurry uptime/etc. by just running the sim for enough weapon speed/crit combinations that you can easily interpolate the rest. With a large enough data set this would work -- even if you can't find an equation that matches the entire set of data, sufficient data points would let you get an accurate enough result anyway. With a simulator that can run batches and a lot of cpu time, it'd be pretty easy to build a closed-form model, but Yo!'s sim can't be automated and to the best of my knowledge all of the other sims have problems with thier models. If one of the open source sims is usable (or if Yo! adds automation support), the only problem remaining is that my napkin math says it'd take ~100 days of CPU time to build the dataset. It's an inheriently parallelizable task, so even that might be doable.
#7235SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3iconocclast
Gems

we all know that the Bold living ruby is the best answer for our gem needs BUT shouldnt the Ornate (20AP) and the Crimson Sun (24AP for us JCers) be accounted for as well?
#7236SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Go Go Godzilla
Originally Posted by Hexxus
Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
TOTAL: 1051.17 ep

Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality
TOTAL: 494.63 ep

DPS values were using 2.6 EPs, which is obviously wrong.
1 MH DPS = 9.03 AEP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 AEP
DPS values are discussed here: http://elitistjerks.com/517715-post4039.html.
2.5 values should be less than the 2.6 values. But I'm not sure by how much.
I wanted to get an idea of the EP values as well and, realizing that the 2.6 EP values for DPS would calculate unfairly in favor of the Vanir's Fists, I did a linear, algebraeic adjustment to the speed. I used:

MH – ((9.03 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 8.68 MH EP;
OH – ((3.7 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 3.56 OH EP

I know this isn't 100% on the mark, but I was hoping to get a slightly closer understanding of the value of the badge weapons versus some of the other weapons that are currently out there. My final result was 1489.24 EP (Vanir Right Fist - 1015.12 MH; Vanir Left Fist - 474.12 OH). My initial reaction to this is that the values would have to be whittled down a little beyond this, as this would technically place it higher than dual-wielding the Syphons from BT. But then again, a majority of the badge loot is quite impressive anyway.

By this estimation, the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver would still be a better weapon.

EDIT: Clarification and a little grammar, plus I typed a number wrong. Durr.

Last edited by Go Go Godzilla : 02/20/08 at 5:18 PM.
#7237SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by iconocclast
we all know that the Bold living ruby is the best answer for our gem needs BUT shouldnt the Ornate (20AP) and the Crimson Sun (24AP for us JCers) be accounted for as well?
Duh? I mean, obviously those are going to be better than something which gives 16 AP without Kings and 17.6 AP with Kings.
#7238SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Go Go Godzilla
I wanted to get an idea of the EP values as well and, realizing that the 2.6 EP values for DPS would calculate unfairly in favor of the Vanir's Fists, I did a linear, algebraeic adjustment to the speed. I used:

MH – ((9.06 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 8.68 MH EP;
OH – ((3.7 / 2.6) = (x / 2.5)) = 3.56 OH EP

I know this isn't 100% on the mark, but I was hoping to get a slightly closer understanding of the value of the badge weapons versus some of the other weapons that are currently out there. My final result was 1489.24 EP (Vanir Right Fist - 1015.12 MH; Vanir Left Fist - 474.12 OH). My initial reaction to this is that the values would have to be whittled down a little beyond this, as this would technically place it higher than dual-wielding the Syphons from BT. But then again, a majority of the badge loot is quite impressive anyway.

By this estimation, the Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver would still be a better weapon.

EDIT: Clarification and a little grammar.

Going at 2.6 * 2 weapon sto 2.5 * 2 weapons decrease physical damage only 1.1% and you suggest
(2.5/2.6 - 1) = -3.8%
So DONT over value speed factor. Allways use sim when compare weapons. Ep values for weapons isnt just enough accurate.
#7239SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Report from the PTR is that all the stamina has been removed from the new T6 items and they've been replaced with pure damage stats, making that much more attractive now.
#7240SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Malan
Report from the PTR is that all the stamina has been removed from the new T6 items and they've been replaced with pure damage stats, making that much more attractive now.
And holy shit at the buffs to it.

#7241SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Malan
Report from the PTR is that all the stamina has been removed from the new T6 items and they've been replaced with pure damage stats, making that much more attractive now.
That makes me happy
#7242SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jingizu
Originally Posted by rava
And holy shit at the buffs to it.
finally there's a better belt than the vashj one ...
#7243SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Whoah holy smokes, expertise on set items?
#7244SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Damn nice buff, though I wish they removed the int and put stamina in it's place instead :P At least on a few of them.

The amount of expertise on those, coupled with the trinket from Heroic Magister's Terrace will mean we're expertise capped for dodge as well. Wow. Makes me care a lot less about the apparent lack of axes in Sunwell as well :P
#7245SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Stopokingme
Damn nice buff, though I wish they removed the int and put stamina in it's place instead :P At least on a few of them.

The amount of expertise on those, coupled with the trinket from Heroic Magister's Terrace will mean we're expertise capped for dodge as well. Wow. Makes me care a lot less about the apparent lack of axes in Sunwell as well :P
With just those 3 items plus the shard, puts us at 112 expertise rating, where as we only need 90 to be capped for dodge and parry.
#7246SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
falonub
I think I just creamed my pants...all 3 pieces have expertise....Wow
these are too good to pass, time to start saving dkp for sunwell :P

Last edited by falonub : 02/20/08 at 6:05 PM.
#7247SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sebbie
Woah... If only they'd do that for some of our other gear.
#7248SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Othieus
With just those 3 items plus the shard, puts us at 112 expertise rating, where as we only need 90 to be capped for dodge and parry.
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
#7249SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
I have a bad feeling these new awesome set items will be nerfed one way or another before they go live... with my EP values the belt will be a ~60EP upgrade, the bracers a ~77.5EP upgrade and the boots a ~115EP upgrade from the current best-in-game slots.

But then again I guess that's what happens when we get proper itemized loot?
#7250SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Urstroyer
It seems, that finally Blizzard learned to create Items that fit perfectly to an enhancment shaman. Also the elemental parts are currently very well itemized -> pure caster stats without any mp5 which eats from the item level.

I really hope that we will see some more nice enhancement loot on the prt soon, perhaps some more items to trade at the transmuter npc, who knows.
#7251SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
#7252SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Devnex
Eh, I'd almost prefer they kill the haste itemization budget and throw back on some stamina. I find I'm one of the squishiest melee classes in almost any fight with environmental damage and losing 120+ stamina isn't my idea of a good time.
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
#7253SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by rava
I'm pretty sure it was a PVP change so stamina being readded isn't in the cards. With 0 stam people are less inclined to stack 4 piece PVP/PVE bonuses which are ridiculous in some cases.
I'm aware. However I'm disinclined to believe that our four set is so spectacular for arena that it warrants this kind of itemization-castration.

I'd be hard pressed to use more than one of these stamina-less items in what I've seen of current sunwell fights. The dps potential is obvious but there's not a single fight so far that the loss of over 1k hp isn't a big deal.
#7254SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
BoinKlasik
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.

edit: what devnix said

Last edited by BoinKlasik : 02/20/08 at 8:00 PM.
#7255SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by BoinKlasik
Do you really want NO stam on your tier pieces? Our optimal setup is already buffered by the high stam on t6 items when we take all the OTHER items that have no stam, can we really stay alive in raids with 3 more slots missing stam entirely? Dont get me wrong I would LOVE these kind of stats on all the items, but stam is an important stat nonetheless.
My current boots don't have any stam right now, and i'd have to say I would prefer that juicy expertise to some stam.
#7256SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
#7257SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
[e] Beaten to it by Malan.
#7258SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murk
So I am having a bit of a quandry: Take crit over +hit, or play it safe on my gear choices and try to take minimal hit losses.

This is my explanation: I am sitting at 119 +hit, but only 26.16% crit (talented, unbuffed) once I get my BT rep trinket. As with many situations, there are various obvious gear upgrade choices which would be easy to make if not for the fact that most suggestions on the upgrade sites (maxdps, lootrank) are so normalized. I could take, for example, Shoulders of the Hidden Predator but would sustain a loss of 20 +hit (bringing me to 99 hit, but giving me obvious improvements over Pauldrons of Primal Fury. INSTEAD OF this, I could opt for Skyshatter Pauldrons with an estimated 3 DPS loss from the Eyeball Happy Funbags. Would the +hit loss be worth it to get the Shoulders of the Hidden Predator, or should I play it safe with my +hit and opt for the Skyshatter?
#7259SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yuma
Originally Posted by Murk
So I am having a bit of a quandry...
When you run the simulations listed on the first page of this thread, what do they tell you?
#7260SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by rava
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
"Expertise against Bosses
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed."

Source: Formulas:Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

One of the two is wrong; unless theres something I'm missing. Which is quite possible as well.
#7261SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Devnex
Originally Posted by Malan
Wear stamina gear for fights that require it, wear the other stuff on any fight that doesn't. I don't see how that's hard to understand. At any rate, a discussion on lack of stamina on gear would fit best in another thread where all the classes can simultaneously complain about it, rather than in here.
My point was it seems like EVERY Sunwell fight is healing and raid-damage intensive making items with only juicy dps stats almost harmful. This probably isn't the place for this discussion though.

Edit: Its illogical to get raiding gear that you'd be foolish to use in 90% of the fights in the instance you get it in.

Last edited by Devnex : 02/20/08 at 8:59 PM. Reason: Clarification
#7262SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.
#7263SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Murk
Originally Posted by Yuma
When you run the simulations listed on the first page of this thread, what do they tell you?

That actually helped make the decision much more easily, thanks! The values I had input to lootrank were a bit skewed from the calc's values.
#7264SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Rob
Basically, we are getting interesting choices to make on our gear now. Previously there was always one clearly best item in slot, now there are going to be multiple items, and you will have to make a judgment call "is gaining 20 EP worth losing 30 STA?" Personally, I think that's OK.

I agree. No one forces you to use the gear all the time, or at all, there are already some very common no stam items; the best pieces in those slots; neck, belt (best mail belt), and boots. So surely is it no different to now you can choose the best in slot (by a fair way) or settle for second best with a chunk of stam. Or mix and match.

I currently have no items with 0 stam and just picked up one of the s3 axes which puts me around 11300 HP buffed (using a STR/spi food), so I will definitely be using these new items, additionally I will also gain stam when I replace my offhand either from a Mounting Vengeance (22) or another s3 axe (30).

I am a Tauren though ^_^


ps I am surprised to see people complaining since it was expertise added and we have all been dying a little inside every time a WF or a SS is dodged.
#7265SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
oglas
Ooooh nice, when I first saw T6 changes on those 3 items my first thought was "NAGA PLS!"... Seemed a bit drastic, although I'm quite happy because someone obviously taught Blizzard developers what a shaman brother needs.

Not gonna complain too much, it's really nice and welcome change, although they could have done it by changing ALL T6 items and replacing mp5 to lets say -armor, and just taking some stat points from stamina and converting them to DPS stats, instead of nuking stamina out and putting huge amounts of unnecessary expertise (Orcs benefit A LOT less from these, if the cap is what we think it is).

But well, cant wait until i get my hands on those :-P

Last edited by oglas : 02/23/08 at 3:45 AM.
#7266SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rounced
Originally Posted by Tuili
Well if you dislike error messages it is... Try:

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/cast Stormstrike
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
/script UIErrorsFrame:Show()
/stopcasting
/cast Purge

This way during the CD there will be no "Ability not ready" but you will still get the "Nothing to dispell" message, which has more relevance imo. If you want to hide that too (maybe you use an addon that tells you what was purged, and seeing that nothing was is enough for you) Just move the last two lines to within the UIErrors confine.
Just an aside - this macro doesn't work.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to get it to work?

I don't want to use a castsequence since there are always times when you don't want to spam purge but I love the idea of being able to use the binding to purge when stormstrike is on cooldown.
#7267SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deadstar
Interesting tidbit about the new PTR build:

The single target destruction of totems returns mana for the same amount you would get from Totemic Recall.

Single target doesn't activate the GCD and you can also destroy totems in Ghost Wolf without leaving form.

If it goes live untouched and we can figure out the command for manually destroying totems, you can probably macro it to work like Totemic Recall without wasting a GCD.
#7268SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ridan
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves.
#7269SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
I've been pondering which T6 item to grab now, before this nice change I though I would grab the helm and shoulders (due to the fact I'll most likely never see CVoS because of guild item-priorities, and I'd need 2xT6 since I have the Vashj belt). However, after this nice change all the T6 items are best-in-slot at their current state.

So.. to figure out the last piece, I've added 70EP to that T6 piece, and I came up with shoulders being a good slot to go for. I'm a leatherworker though, and Gloves of Immortal Dusk end up as the best-in-slot gloves for me which is why I'm hesitant to take the T6 gloves. T6+70EP = ~248EP vs the GoID at ~308EP.

However, the best-in-game shoulders at the moment are the Demontooth Shoulderpads at ~275EP, T6+70EP=266EP. So that's just a 9EP loss compared to a much higher loss in the other slots.

Pacifier's EP chart

There's the values I've used to calculate it, if that's any use for anyone else.
#7270SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3daruu
Hello!
This is the first post for me here(been a viewer for a long time though)

I decided to try out enhance after being ele and resto for a while now and its really fun!

The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions.

ATM i have 1178ap, 150 hit rating (+ talents) and 22.48% crit
This is oc course without totems or any buffs, in addition my gear isnt really enchanted and im using green gems
Most of it are from kara/heroics, but got some items from ssc/tk aswell

So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit?

(Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it)



- Ballzofsteel
#7271SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by daruu
The thing is i dont know too much about enhancement specc (or melee in general) and the first post didnt really help me answer my questions.

...

So, i was wondering if so much hit rating is needed? or can i sacrifice a bit for more ap/crit?

(Sorry if this has been answered before, but my quick search couldnt find it)

- Ballzofsteel
Just read again the OP, especially section 3.1.2 (and this must have been answered like... a hundred times)
#7272SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3daruu
Yes i have seen that

So basicly i shouldnt care about hit rating at all then, and rather go for crit and strength... (this seems a bit weird to me, i am still getting a lot of misses)

And what stats should a enhance shaman have at ssc/tk level then? (ap/crit)
#7273SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
To daaru.
Loot Rank

OP shows tons of tools how you can improve your dps/gear. Just learn use those. This isnt best place to ask what color shirt you should wearing. Allthought there is lots of infomation what you just have to read.
#7274SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Ridan
With these 3 new pieces being awesome, I guess it would be great to go and get another piece of T6 to get the 4 pieces bonus. While this piece won't be a best in slot, we would need a 70 EP difference to make the change worth it.
If I go with this, I would probably take the gloves.
I have a T6 shoulder token laying in the bank because I figured that much myself. But then I checked gloves and shoulder upgrades and best in-slot from Sunweel will be above the added 62-70 AP/EP from this one "old" item. The 4p bonus just isn't worth the lost EP from this slot.
#7275SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3death_Phobos
Originally Posted by Malan
Whoah holy smokes, expertise on set items?
Incredible good Items, i can't believe.
#7276SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Glayde
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
I have a bad feeling these new awesome set items will be nerfed one way or another before they go live... with my EP values the belt will be a ~60EP upgrade, the bracers a ~77.5EP upgrade and the boots a ~115EP upgrade from the current best-in-game slots.

But then again I guess that's what happens when we get proper itemized loot?
Higher item levels, removal of stamina and mainly the fact they gave us expertise which runs high aep wise for everyone.
#7277SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Patrik
Originally Posted by Devnex
I'd be hard pressed to use more than one of these stamina-less items in what I've seen of current sunwell fights. The dps potential is obvious but there's not a single fight so far that the loss of over 1k hp isn't a big deal.
Many of us are already wearing boots and belt without stamina on it, hence in many cases we are talking about loss of just ±30 stamina from bracers, and that ain't that big of a deal in my opinion.
#7278SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Shamans are wearing stam light gear now. At least with the new gear, you have the correct damage stats and if you end up light, you can gem/enchant stam. There is a thing as "too much stam", there is no "too much damage stats". Let the discussion die.
#7279SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Deadstar
Interesting tidbit about the new PTR build:

The single target destruction of totems returns mana for the same amount you would get from Totemic Recall.

Single target doesn't activate the GCD and you can also destroy totems in Ghost Wolf without leaving form.

If it goes live untouched and we can figure out the command for manually destroying totems, you can probably macro it to work like Totemic Recall without wasting a GCD.
This really is pretty nice. I'm sure that if you can do it through the standard UI that it would be available through the API as well. Thinking on what this means though, if its not a GCD destruction it'd be great to macro this into every totem cast so that you always get some mana back when you refresh an individual totem. Great for totem twisters if that works.
#7280SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mogonar
From http://wdnaddons.com/0407923/FrameXML/TotemFrame.lua:

DestroyTotem(TotemSlot)

The totem slots are defined as:

FIRE_TOTEM_SLOT = 1;
EARTH_TOTEM_SLOT = 2;
WATER_TOTEM_SLOT = 3;
AIR_TOTEM_SLOT = 4;

Enjoy!
#7281SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Incredibly neat stuff about the totems and T6 :-)

Also, I'm finally playing around with the new combatlog for updating the mod. The mod currently works for everything except for the WF cooldown bar, which is probably the part that I care about most, personally.
#7282SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Neithan
Originally Posted by Raut
I have a T6 shoulder token laying in the bank because I figured that much myself. But then I checked gloves and shoulder upgrades and best in-slot from Sunweel will be above the added 62-70 AP/EP from this one "old" item. The 4p bonus just isn't worth the lost EP from this slot.
A little bit of sta and int is not worth 6 EP loss?
#7283SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Weem
Originally Posted by Disquette
Incredibly neat stuff about the totems and T6 :-)

Also, I'm finally playing around with the new combatlog for updating the mod. The mod currently works for everything except for the WF cooldown bar, which is probably the part that I care about most, personally.
Maybe I'm missing something but I've been using your mod on test for twisting purposes without any problems.
#7284SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Weem
Maybe I'm missing something but I've been using your mod on test for twisting purposes without any problems.
Yah, it pretty much works (though I got rid of some extraneous stuff and embedded and reordered the ace2 libraries so that people wouldn't have to have Ace2 installed standalone).

If you're getting the Windfury cooldown bar overlayed on top of the stormstrike bar (the red on top of the yellow), then something is wonky with my configuration. And, since the old combat log no longer works, I don't actually see how that aspect could work at all without redoing the combat event handling.
#7285SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Deadstar
Originally Posted by Mogonar
From http://wdnaddons.com/0407923/FrameXML/TotemFrame.lua:

DestroyTotem(TotemSlot)

The totem slots are defined as:

FIRE_TOTEM_SLOT = 1;
EARTH_TOTEM_SLOT = 2;
WATER_TOTEM_SLOT = 3;
AIR_TOTEM_SLOT = 4;

Enjoy!
Thank you.

In addition to this post and a bit of help on the UI and Macro forums, I got the macro working on the PTR. It looks like this:

/run DestroyTotem(1) DestroyTotem(2) DestroyTotem(3) DestroyTotem(4)

Works like a charm. No GCD involved and can be done whenever.
#7286SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bloodbrave
Aggro Management

(Note: This is quite wordy, and covers info that I know you know, but I wanted to be complete. Also, it is mentioned in the guide that one can perform weapon swaps during a fight. My suggestion is to start a fight with said weapons for the reason below. This idea should of course be summarized if it were to be included in the guide.)

Hello. I would like to suggest a topic/idea that could be added to the 'managing threat' section (Sec. 4.2). The basic idea is to start attacking a target immediately using low dps weapons. This will provide the group with the Unleased Rage buff while not immediately drawing aggro and getting killed.

To delay attacking a target until a tank has a solid threat lead (over 5K, perhaps even 10k) is a sound principle. As any Shaman knows, a WF triple crit on your first attack is a good way to die if the tank only has a few thousand threat over you. One negative aspect of this tactic is that while a shaman is not attacking, the group can't benefit from Unleashed Rage. An Enhancement Shaman is of course a melee buff class and it would be optimal to have him performing that duty as much and as soon as possible. The key here is to attack in a manner that will provide the UR buff without drawing aggro and getting killed.

One method to provide the UR buff at the beginning of combat is to start with low dps weapons. Dual wielding such weapons, with out the Windfury buff, wil allow a shaman to proc UR without doing enough damage to draw aggro. Once the tank has a sufficient threat lead, a one button macro (Item Rack, etc.) can be used to switch to the main weapons. One item to note is that such weapons should have stamina bonuses equal to ones primary weapons. This will prevent someone from being down HP after the switch. Green weapons with the "... of Stamina" are ideal for this.


If this has already been brought up in this thread, then shame on me for not finding it. Flame as necessary...
#7287SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Deadstar
Thank you.

In addition to this post and a bit of help on the UI and Macro forums, I got the macro working on the PTR. It looks like this:

/run DestroyTotem(1) DestroyTotem(2) DestroyTotem(3) DestroyTotem(4)

Works like a charm. No GCD involved and can be done whenever.
So in that case, every totem should be wrapped with this right?

/run DestroyTotem(4)
/cast Windfury Totem
#7288SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Malan
So in that case, every totem should be wrapped with this right?

/run DestroyTotem(4)
/cast Windfury Totem
Is there a way to insert that /run command into a /castsequence macro for 1-button twisting?
#7289SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Disquette
Incredibly neat stuff about the totems and T6 :-)

Also, I'm finally playing around with the new combatlog for updating the mod. The mod currently works for everything except for the WF cooldown bar, which is probably the part that I care about most, personally.
I already updated my addon - you may look at it :-)
#7290SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by bloodbrave
(Note: This is quite wordy, and covers info that I know you know, but I wanted to be complete. Also, it is mentioned in the guide that one can perform weapon swaps during a fight. My suggestion is to start a fight with said weapons for the reason below. This idea should of course be summarized if it were to be included in the guide.)

Hello. I would like to suggest a topic/idea that could be added to the 'managing threat' section (Sec. 4.2). The basic idea is to start attacking a target immediately using low dps weapons. This will provide the group with the Unleased Rage buff while not immediately drawing aggro and getting killed.

To delay attacking a target until a tank has a solid threat lead (over 5K, perhaps even 10k) is a sound principle. As any Shaman knows, a WF triple crit on your first attack is a good way to die if the tank only has a few thousand threat over you. One negative aspect of this tactic is that while a shaman is not attacking, the group can't benefit from Unleashed Rage. An Enhancement Shaman is of course a melee buff class and it would be optimal to have him performing that duty as much and as soon as possible. The key here is to attack in a manner that will provide the UR buff without drawing aggro and getting killed.

One method to provide the UR buff at the beginning of combat is to start with low dps weapons. Dual wielding such weapons, with out the Windfury buff, wil allow a shaman to proc UR without doing enough damage to draw aggro. Once the tank has a sufficient threat lead, a one button macro (Item Rack, etc.) can be used to switch to the main weapons. One item to note is that such weapons should have stamina bonuses equal to ones primary weapons. This will prevent someone from being down HP after the switch. Green weapons with the "... of Stamina" are ideal for this.


If this has already been brought up in this thread, then shame on me for not finding it. Flame as necessary...
I dont think I've ever pulled aggro on a boss-pull. I do it all the time on trash but the tanks get it back quicker than the mob can kill me, unless they want me to die for unknown reasons... On bosses I usually just drop all of my totems before I start attacking, by the time I'm finished dropping them the tank has sufficient aggro for me to start attacking.

I'd much rather do that than fiddle around wiith weapon swaps.
#7291SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Deadstar
Originally Posted by Malan
So in that case, every totem should be wrapped with this right?

/run DestroyTotem(4)
/cast Windfury Totem
Correct. There'd be no good reason for not making a DestroyTotem macro for EVERY totem, then refreshing them as they're about to run out in a raid setting.

Originally Posted by Daler
Is there a way to insert that /run command into a /castsequence macro for 1-button twisting?
/run DestroyTotem (4)
/castsequence Windfury Totem(Rank 5), Grace of Air Totem(Rank 3)

Works fine.

God I hope this makes it to live.

Last edited by Deadstar : 02/21/08 at 6:35 PM.
#7292SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3panny
Only possible problem is if you're currently stuck in GCD and you spam a totem button. If you get CCed during that time, you'll be left without a totem. Still, that's a pretty rare occurance that can be minimalised with being more disciplined with mashing.
#7293SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Crazytrucker
I saw this mentioned in another thread, but not discussed here or on the new 2.4 thread so I figured I'd post it again.
Shifting Tanzanite changed from 5 str 4 agi to 5 agi 6 stam.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9...8182124sb8.jpg
#7294SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Crazytrucker
I saw this mentioned in another thread, but not discussed here or on the new 2.4 thread so I figured I'd post it again.
Shifting Tanzanite changed from 5 str 4 agi to 5 agi 6 stam.
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9...8182124sb8.jpg
Gah! Well at least I don't need to farm heroic SV now.
#7295SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Weem
Originally Posted by Disquette
Yah, it pretty much works (though I got rid of some extraneous stuff and embedded and reordered the ace2 libraries so that people wouldn't have to have Ace2 installed standalone).

If you're getting the Windfury cooldown bar overlayed on top of the stormstrike bar (the red on top of the yellow), then something is wonky with my configuration. And, since the old combat log no longer works, I don't actually see how that aspect could work at all without redoing the combat event handling.
I don't use the stormstrike bar which is probably why everything seems fine to me. =)
#7296SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
A couple of things in this post.
Firstly, i recently downloaded enhancer, and was wondering (as i haven't seen the question answered. Apologies if it has been), at what point does holding off to use Stormstrike when watching the WF cooldown icon become detrimental to dps? And even if it should be done at all?

Regarding the new info on the totem single target destruction without a gcd and the ensuing macro's. With all the totems we have it sure would be a giant pain in the ass to have to macro them all, so if i did, it would only be my most common totems, but i am asking myself if it is even necessary. I cannot think of one single instance where i have had mana problems in a raid. Do you really feel it is needed?

I also like the changes made to the T6 sunwell pieces, as atm i am sitting with around 13k health fully buffed (no commanding shout or imp) in a raid and losing some stamina for some dps stats, is in my case at least highly desirable. Of course now that i've said this, i'm likely to get smacked in the face for 1 point over my max stamina from a mob or boss in Sunwell and will most likely edit this bit out :p
#7297SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Snapps
Syphon of the Nathrezim Stealing imp SB?

Today when i logged into my guilds vent for raids, i came across a convorsation or argument if you will . Discussing how my two new syphons are stealing Imp shadowbolt charges..

I call BS , they dont seem to be. but i would like some professional Advice .. thank you

Snapps
#7298SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tidalclyps
Syphons do not steal the Imp SP buff. Take a lock from your guild and got to blasted lands, have him spam rank 1 sp till he crits and then pray for a syphon proc, watch the debuff stay on the mob.
#7299SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
They do however gain damage if it procs when IMP SB goes up.
#7300SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Hedin
I already updated my addon - you may look at it :-)
Awesome, thanks much :-)
#7301SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Neithan
A little bit of sta and int is not worth 6 EP loss?
With Sebudai's EP:
[Demontooth Shoulderpads] - 263.37
[Skyshatter Pauldrons] - 184.63

Yo!'s sim suggests the T6 4p bonus to be worth 62 EP because of uptime meaning the shoulderpads give 16.74 EP over 10 stam.

The gloves are even worse off.
#7302SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Lumb
Hi again,

Could anybody link to me to the addon 'Enhancer', I have searched and searched but to no avail. Have they stopped developing it?

Last edited by Lumb : 02/22/08 at 5:43 AM.
#7303SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Raut
With Sebudai's EP:
[Demontooth Shoulderpads] - 263.37
[Skyshatter Pauldrons] - 184.63

Yo!'s sim suggests the T6 4p bonus to be worth 62 EP because of uptime meaning the shoulderpads give 16.74 EP over 10 stam.

The gloves are even worse off.
Try value t6 bonus with max expertice and it will be 70ep.
3* new t6 + shard = expertice cap. But sadly it still lose. We only get horrible 2set bonus.
#7304SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Lumb
Hi again,

Could anybody link to me to the addon 'Enhancer', I have searched and searched but to no avail. Have they stopped developing it?
Not really.

I'm however porting it to Ace3, separating it into more then one AddOn (Equivalence Points is broken out into it's own AddOn etc), and some big changes for 2.4. While doing so I've not had a need to update the current version for a while though if something is broken and I find out I'll still update it of course.

Also I'm a lazy bastard so I've not been arsed to put it anywhere on the "normal" AddOn sites like Curse, WoWI only World of Warcraft Addons - WowAce.com
#7305SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Aksing
A couple of things in this post.
Firstly, i recently downloaded enhancer, and was wondering (as i haven't seen the question answered. Apologies if it has been), at what point does holding off to use Stormstrike when watching the WF cooldown icon become detrimental to dps? And even if it should be done at all?
You can sim this. There's an option where you specify the maximum amount of time you'll wait to Stormstrike if WF is on CD when SS comes up. Try 0, 1, 2, and 3 seconds and see what you get.



Also, in regards to the earlier question about weapon swapping to get UR up, I used to do this on fights where the positioning was such that I could get my totems down before the fight and immediately start hitting things, except instead of using two low-DPS weapons, I'd use two high-DPS but fast weapons (like the [Malchazeen] I picked up solely to poke fun at rogues), because the burst damage was low and the relative frequency of crits was high. That said, my tanks are good enough with snap aggro at the beginning of fights now that I haven't had to do that in a long time, and don't even carry the weapons with me anymore.

[Edit for spelling and grammar. I really shouldn't post right after getting out of bed.]

Last edited by Rhaegal : 02/22/08 at 9:27 AM.
#7306SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3British
@Yo!

Is there any chance to have an offline (or even standalone) version of your simulator ?

I have enough time at the office to run multiple sims (erm, don't ask), but unfortunately we're using some very old version of Java, and to access most sites, I have to go through a proxy that messes things up.
There's another computer, though, that has the lastest JRE, but it's not on the network...
#7307SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
[Bug] ? Totemic Recall still has GCD
Looks like either Totemic Recall should be off the GCD, or the new API changes are supposed to incur the GCD. One of the two is bugged.
#7308SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Do those singling totem destructions return any mana?
#7309SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Yes its like a selective Totemic Recall.
#7310SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
Aksing, why in the name of the Deeps God you have hit gems into your gear? Aaand a Posion Vial as trinket?


Oh, and another thing: I saw something around some pages ago about the DS proc into Yo's! sim...did he fix it?

I was getting pretty decent results with a Syphon/Rod of the Sun King combo, close to 5 DPS dif as double Syphon and thus was using it as my another Syphon is yet to drop. Although the sim shows DS/Syphon as higher dps still so i'd like to know if it's correct already.
#7311SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette
Also, I'm finally playing around with the new combatlog for updating the mod. The mod currently works for everything except for the WF cooldown bar, which is probably the part that I care about most, personally.
While you're working on that, is there any chance you can add a check if 4-piece Gladiator is equipped (and thus reduced SS cooldown by 1 second)?
#7312SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Lumb
Thanks for the info Tristan

Moving on,

Just entered my stats into YO!'s sim and I'm puzzled by the AEP values I have received.

AP - 1
Crit rating - 1.98
Hit rating - 3.19 (???)
Haste rating - 1.4
Armor Pen - 0.25
Strength - 2.2
Agility - 1.93
Expertise - 3.22

Also, the 'import from armory' has not yet been fully completed I presume?

Edit: I didn't add on the hit from talents, I guess thats the problem. Gonna go do that now

Last edited by Lumb : 02/22/08 at 12:32 PM.
#7313SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Rob
While you're working on that, is there any chance you can add a check if 4-piece Gladiator is equipped (and thus reduced SS cooldown by 1 second)?
I can do that, probably, but I'd be curious to know if the code part works first before writing a gear check (something I've only dabbled in before).

Can you see if this is all you need to do to the .lua file to make it work?

change
f2.statusbar:SetMinMaxValues(0,9)
to
f2.statusbar:SetMinMaxValues(0,10)

(just changing the 2nd value parameter).

then change:
function DisqoDice:SSBar()
f2:Show()
gogogoSS = true
SSTime = GetTime() + 10
SSmin, SSmax = f2.statusbar:GetMinMaxValues()

to
function DisqoDice:SSBar()
f2:Show()
gogogoSS = true
SSTime = GetTime() + 9
SSmin, SSmax = f2.statusbar:GetMinMaxValues()


Maybe that would do it. If so, I could build it in to a gear check, perhaps.
#7314SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Originally Posted by T.K.
Aksing, why in the name of the Deeps God you have hit gems into your gear? Aaand a Posion Vial as trinket?
Because i just recently rerolled from rogue and the poison vial dropped and i had nothing better. I will ding exalted with Ashtongue next reset so will use that trinket then. As for the hit gems, i don't know about you guys but pyrestones are very very limited so i can't regem atm. Though i will probably downgrade to noble topaz's until the pyrestones come my way.

I'm presuming the best trinket combo after 2.4 will be the one from magisters terrace and DST? Though with the drop rate on DST, Madness seems to be the more realistic option
#7315SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Autolycus
Hi, I play a rogue and I have a few questions in reguards to windfury and swing timers.

I looked through the Original post however I didn't see anything mentioned about swing timer resets due to windfury, so I'm curious if this still happens.

I know that there is a large difference between the way windfury on a shaman's weapon works, and windfury totem works. The shaman windfury lands as a yellow attack in the combat log and is incapable of a glancing blow, however, the proc'd extra attack from the windfury totem just says "You hit _____ for x damage." This is a white damage attack which IS capable of glancing blows. Other than the attack power buff you momentarily gain, the mechanics of this attack are more similar to sword specialization than to the actual shaman windfury weapon attacks.

Now a little while back sword specialization was changed to a yellow attack in the combat log, which meant two things:
1. It would no longer yield glancing blows
2. It reset the swing timer on the mainhand sword

They decided that it was too much of a buff and they reverted it back to the original mechanic of adding a white attack and NOT reseting the swing timer.

Anyways, my question is does the shaman windfury weapon proc reset the swing timer on whichever hand proc's it? That was my understanding, just looking for some clarification.

Thank you,
Auto
#7316SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
No it does not reset the swing timer, its just like sword proc.
#7317SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Othieus
EDIT: Malan got to it first

Last edited by Othieus : 02/22/08 at 1:25 PM.
#7318SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Disquette
I can do that, probably, but I'd be curious to know if the code part works first before writing a gear check (something I've only dabbled in before).

Well, if gear check is too complicated a toggle of a sort should be sufficient. Maybe even player set value in case we get more SS modifiers in future. Something like /dqd SStimer 9 to set it 9 seconds for example. Of course not sure if such not possible yet.
#7319SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Autolycus
Now a little while back sword specialization was changed to a yellow attack in the combat log, which meant two things:
1. It would no longer yield glancing blows
2. It reset the swing timer on the mainhand sword
Ok, explain this to me, how would resetting the swing timer be beneficial? Wouldn't that delay your next main hand attack, so end up as a dps loss? Or are you just talking about it being yellow and thus no glances?
#7320SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Yeah, from what I remember, the changes were a tradeoff. No glancing blows from Sword Spec procs, but less white MH hits. Since no-glancing-blows meant that the sword spec procs not only did more base damage, but also yielded more crits (though i could be wrong on that one since I don't remember if the procs used a 1 or 2 roll system), and only delayed the next MH by some fraction of its swing timer, the difference worked out to be a bigger buff to sword spec than Blizz intended.
#7321SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Atren
Well, if gear check is too complicated a toggle of a sort should be sufficient. Maybe even player set value in case we get more SS modifiers in future. Something like /dqd SStimer 9 to set it 9 seconds for example. Of course not sure if such not possible yet.
Possible? definitely. Easy? Given some of my coding decisions earlier - not so much ;-)

I really like the fact that the bars all reduce width at the same rate, so you don't have to guess which one is going to run out when, relative to the others. In the ugly but really quick "fix" I posted above, I think the bar would indeed run for 9 seconds and be done (not sure, but I think so). It would, however, do so at a different rate than the other bars.

Since it's only an 11% difference in rate, it's not a huge thing, especially if you can mentally correct for it a little bit, but it doesn't please me to have garbage code and/or presentation out there. I posted the quick version above because a couple people have asked for it over the months, and I feel bad for saying nothing yet. So this is a "something is better than nothing" hack, assuming it works.
#7322SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Has anyone ran the numbers on those 2.5 badge weps yet? And have any good main hands been found on Sunwell yet to go with that 2.6 offhand trash-drop?
#7323SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Urstroyer
I just logged into the newest build of the ptr and it seems that the talent Shamanistic Rage was fixed.

It isn't a magic buff anymore, so it's non-dispellable while active now. That seems to be our buff for arena or what?
#7324SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
All the T6 items had stamina added again, although they kept some of the old stat changes, looks like they did a full redistribution of the item points.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...6v3_shaman.jpg

Just confirmed SR is no longer removable on the PTR.
Also Shamanistic Focus no longer makes that annoying sound.

Last edited by Malan : 02/22/08 at 7:21 PM.
#7325SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stopokingme
Originally Posted by Malan
All the T6 items had stamina added again, although they kept some of the old stat changes, looks like they did a full redistribution of the item points.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...6v3_shaman.jpg

Just confirmed SR is no longer removable on the PTR.
Also Shamanistic Focus no longer makes that annoying sound.
Glad to see the expertise is still all there. And extremely glad to finally not hear clearcast noises every 2 seconds.
#7326SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nemaa
As I see each item got different type of stat nerfed to get back some of the stamina.
Feet lost some haste rating, waist lost some crit rating and wrist lost some hit rating. Every other stat remained the same. It's good that we have choices.
#7327SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nemaa
Originally Posted by Paradox
Has anyone ran the numbers on those 2.5 badge weps yet? And have any good main hands been found on Sunwell yet to go with that 2.6 offhand trash-drop?
http://elitistjerks.com/642438-post7130.html
#7328SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
That's pretty much exactly what I was looking for in the new tier 6 pieces. I'd easily wear all three in any fight now.
#7329SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
S3 being ultimately better?

Seems with the T6 Sunwell changes we've lost:

Greaves: 7 haste rating
Wrist: 5 hit rating
Girdle: 7 crit rating

In terms of dps stats anyway. PErsonally I could care less about stamina, so i'd rather have as much dps stats as possible but it doesn't too much of a nerf.
#7330SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
oglas
It's not a huge loss, indeed. Stamina IS needed, although it doesnt increase dps, but you cant dps in ghost form, so this only means we wont have to do "on the fly" replacements before bosses, just to be above 10k, etc.

This was basicaly what I had in mind, finally Blizzard made some pretty flawless items for us enhancers, can't complain about any of them, and as far as we know at the moment, they are the best items in their slot. However, there's a huge inconsistency now, since the old T6 items are still loaded with mp5 and not-so-good overall, so it still leaves us with the 4 piece set problem. :-(

Any enhancement T6 I can think of (old one) has some leather or maybe mail equivalent that is A LOT better, so it almost doesn't pay off to go for 4-piece bonus. I'm in a position where I can take T6 pieces, but pass them due to not being itemized properly, so I would get really annoyed if items get fixed after I passed the whole set 2-3 times...

Last edited by oglas : 02/23/08 at 4:13 AM.
#7331SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by oglas
Any enhancement T6 I can think of (old one) has some leather or maybe mail equivalent that is A LOT better, so it almost doesn't pay off to go for 4-piece bonus. I'm in a position where I can take T6 pieces, but pass them due to not being itemized properly, so I would get really annoyed if items get fixed after I passed the whole set 2-3 times...
Same here, I was actually thinking of going for a few peices just in case they redid the itemization on them, and then the Protector tokens refused to drop for a few weeks..
#7332SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
I think the stats on the three new pieces of T6 are nearly perfect. If there was a full set of gear like this I think I would wear it over the standard random pieces of leather. Hopefully this means that Blizzard has finally learned how to itemize for us, and we can expect more gear like this in the future.
#7333SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lambach
Whenever I talk to my enhance shaman I always come back here and it takes me a long while to find sebudais listing of top gear choices for t6 gearing. I was wondering if there could be a link in the first post to his post a few weeks back. I know for me personally I just bookmarked it, but I think it was useful info that other people might want to be able to quickly get a hold of.
#7334SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BoinKlasik
Originally Posted by Lambach
Whenever I talk to my enhance shaman I always come back here and it takes me a long while to find sebudais listing of top gear choices for t6 gearing. I was wondering if there could be a link in the first post to his post a few weeks back. I know for me personally I just bookmarked it, but I think it was useful info that other people might want to be able to quickly get a hold of.
Something like Enhancement Sandbox from http://elitistjerks.com/623888-post6703.html?

edit: didnt know how the URL tag system worked that's awsome.
#7335SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psibeast
Actually, Sebudai's list is better because it doesn't just give what's best in slot but also ranking for each slot together with EP values because sometimes an item drops that isn't the best in slot and you want to know how it fits in the big picture for that slot. Personally I'd go an make such a list for myself with my own personal EP weights.
#7336SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Bellante
Originally Posted by Paradox
Has anyone ran the numbers on those 2.5 badge weps yet? And have any good main hands been found on Sunwell yet to go with that 2.6 offhand trash-drop?
Ran a 100.000 hours (overkill perhaps ) sim on exchanging Talon mainhand with the 2.5 103 dps one. Lost 8 dps. Haven't tried the offhand yet.

Stats with my current gear:

Str: 226
Agility: 289
AP: 1734
Hit %: 18
Haste: 67 (4.25%)
Crit %: 30.37
Armor pen: 287
Spell crit%: 5.23%
Spell hit: 3%
MH dps/speed: 96.5/2.7
OH dps/speed: 100.2/2.6

8 shocks per minute, ashtongue talisman, berserker's call use added as 30 AP flat. Normal buffs.

Dps current gear: 1336
Dps changing to new MH 2.5 speed: 1328

I died a little inside.

Edit: Shocks were a brainfart, doesnt matter anyway, since spelldamage and crit was ~ the same in both simulations. The only effect of the error is that shocks account for too much dps, and the overall dps with those stats is too high. The relative dps change should be the same due to swapping weapons (AP is roughly the same in both simulations).

Last edited by Bellante : 02/23/08 at 8:31 AM.
#7337SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Maybe i'm being a nab here but how did you shock 20 times a minute?

Unless you spec into elemental then your shocks, like mine have a 6 second cooldown which means the maximum number you can use them is 10 times a minute.
#7338SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Urstroyer
I was just browsing in the shaman forums and found an interesting thread about the internal windfury cooldown.

Some guys just figured out, that haste rating seems to have impact on the internal windfury cd. There are already a couple of players who proved that in a test with haste rating gear and with little help of this addon here:

WFCDT - Shaman Mods - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More!

It tracks your shortest delay between you windfury procs. As a result it was possible to decrease the windfury cd to 2.8 secs and below with mungoprocs and haste potion f. e.

Has anyone experienced this before?
#7339SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
If that is true than shouldn't they be able to measure an even greater decrease through bloodlust and Drums of Battle? Or are they saying that its a bug with those particular items?

[e] In an excellent change, Blizzard has reduced the mat requirements for some of the crafted items and removed the Sunmotes from them! http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...sundusk_v2.jpg
#7340SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas
In the end, if it's true that HASTE rating decreases WF cooldown time, then we're going to see some increased EP values for haste... I like it, since all the new gear in Sunwell is loaded with haste, which turns out to be a good thing. It might put some items above others.

Could anyone try and test it with bloodlust, haste pots, drums... stacked up and see if it changes CD? I don't think Flurry makes any difference, as we would probably notice it a lot sooner.
#7341SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
If its true its got to be a bug anyways, there's no way that would be intentional.
#7342SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Why couldn't it be intentional? I think they were aware of our concerns regarding haste effects and the internal Windfury cooldown. It's possible that they attempted to account for it.
#7343SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Assuming everyone will be using a shard of contempt, it is worth mentioning that using T6 shoulders and the 3 new T6 items less viable now due to the combination of items giving you 112 expertise. something like 9 expertise wasted stat points.
#7344SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Anexor
did some testing in blasted lands with dragonstrike and heroism on, to push down the WF CD... here are the results (if the addon works properly):


edit: uptimemeter is tracking haste buff from DS
#7345SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I've got 6.6% haste from gear so I'll give it a shot later with drums and bloodlust.
#7346SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by Malan
I've got 6.6% haste from gear so I'll give it a shot later with drums and bloodlust.
It would probably be better if you tested it with things that didn't simultaneously haste your casting.
#7347SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
oglas
OK, did a 15 min pounding in Blasted Lands with 3.93% passive haste rating (got DST also). Here's the first results I got:

2.79 sec - DST and Mongoose active (no bloodlust)
2.93 sec - only passive haste

Around 15 minutes of pounding, 2 bloodlusts. It should take longer than that to get some more detailed results, but at least we have some sort of confirmation that some of those do influence Windfury cooldown.

Also noticed - I managed to pull off a 2.85-2.90 sec windfury according to timer, by waiting for the cooldown castbar come to around 2.5sec mark and then pushing stormstrike. Some reflex lag + game lag would time the windfury proc just about that.

Last edited by oglas : 02/23/08 at 11:48 AM.
#7348SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Have people testing this mod checked it on the live servers to make sure it just isn't retarded about parsing the combat log/displaying data?
#7349SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
I am, for one, VERY SKEPTICAL of stuff like this, given how badly lag plays with the combat log.

If haste affected WF's cooldown, then DST should make more than a (2.93 - 2.79) / 2.93 = 4.7% difference.

Moreover, as lag could easily explain this stuff, I'd want to see averages versus averages, not one minimum being less than another minimum.

Something was posted on the blizzard forums talking about the windfury cooldown not being 3 seconds, and used something similar as evidence.

Until I find it verified that lag cannot account for this difference, I don't believe it. It smacks way too much of the "bloodlust affect global cooldown" rumor (before it actually did!) ;-)

In short, with evidence, I'll have no problem believing it, but I find none of the evidence compelling so far.
#7350SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genzou
I managed 2.86 on live with Dragonstrike and no BL. I'm guessing those numbers are due to server/client latency and not haste affecting the cd on WF
#7351SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Genzou
I managed 2.86 on live with Dragonstrike and no BL. I'm guessing those numbers are due to server/client latency and not haste affecting the cd on WF
That's pretty much what I expected. It would have been a nice change, though.
#7352SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genshoku
Haste Question

Hey guys,
Long time troller of the EJ forums, first time poster. Thanks for all the work everyone has put into the Shaman theorycrafting, nothing better than empircal data to ensure you're putting out the highest dps possible.

I have a question about haste mechanics and figured this would be the best place to ask as it pertains to the shaman class in specific.

Givens:
Weapon speed - 2.8 (siphon)/ 2.6 (rising tide)
Full t6 equivalent gear minus a couple slots (Main spec is resto)

When a weapon is hasted to a lower speed it obviously increases white damage done, but does the proc modifier haste with it? I.e. a 2.8 speed weapon has a higher chance
#7376SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Can't tell you from personal experience but I see alot of MH exec OH mungo shamans.
#7377SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Lakai
I've been reading this thread almost since day one, and now after Executioner come out, and me beeing killing illidan for months and got all best shaman enhancement gear avaiable, i enchted one of my syphons with executioner, tho i never read on the forum is there is any diference betwen MH/OH enchts, so EXec/Mong or Mong/Exe? anyone got an idea?

Just got the S3 weapons and dont really know where to encht with what.
Horrible grammar aside... run the sim. It's quite simple. For me Exec/Mongoose was a little better, so I went for it.
#7378SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Lakai
I've been reading this thread almost since day one, and now after Executioner come out, and me beeing killing illidan for months and got all best shaman enhancement gear avaiable, i enchted one of my syphons with executioner, tho i never read on the forum is there is any diference betwen MH/OH enchts, so EXec/Mong or Mong/Exe? anyone got an idea?

Just got the S3 weapons and dont really know where to encht with what.
Simulation is your friend. Try all the combos.

[e] Damnit, beaten to it.
#7379SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Otion
I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
Time outside of the cooldown window is a meaningless number. In the range of weapon speeds (1.5, 3.0), the actual WF proc rate is constant if you ignore Flurry and SS (as within that range, you have exactly one swing with each hand that can't proc after each proc). With a constant proc rate, the number of procs is directly inversely proportional to the size of the procs, making the damage constant. However, SS is unnormalized, which vastly favors slow weapons. As a result, there's exactly one level where 2.0 speed weapons would be acceptable, and a good argument could be made for taking SS before DW anyway. There is no situation that doesn't involve very carefully stacked amounts of passive haste where 2.0/2.0 is better than 2.6/2.6.
#7380SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
Lakai-

Assuming you're using two weapons with the same speed - like your dual S3 - there shouldn't be any difference between Exe/Mongoose and Mongoose/Exe. If you see a difference in a sim, you're looking at the sim's margin of error. There *might* be a tiny difference if your weapons are different speeds, but even in that case you're more likely to see the sim's margin of error than anything real.

The difference between Mongoose and Exe is pretty small in the first place, and which you put on which speed weapon is going to make like a 1% difference in its proc rate. The difference is too small to simulate unless you're willing to run the sim for days on end.
#7381SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psykhe
Originally Posted by Lujaar
Assuming you're using two weapons with the same speed - like your dual S3 - there shouldn't be any difference between Exe/Mongoose and Mongoose/Exe. If you see a difference in a sim, you're looking at the sim's margin of error.
Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least). So if WF procs on the MH and OH at the same time only the MH WF proc will happen since the OHs WF will be canceled since it is then in the WF cooldown.

So, assuming WF isn't on cooldown because of a proc in the last 3 seconds, on the MH you have a 30% chance to proc WF while on the OH you have a 0.7 (no MH wf proc chance) * 0.3 (OH WF proc chance) -> 0.21 -> 21% chance to proc WF.

Same number of white damage + stormstrike attacks + ~50% more WF proc attacks on MH -> more MH weapon enchantment procs.
#7382SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tepee007
I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?
#7383SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
LazyJoe
You pretty well summarized the whole "Questions you shouldn't ask because you have the answer in the OP" thing.

Last edited by LazyJoe : 02/25/08 at 9:00 AM.
#7384SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Originally Posted by Kyuki
I pulled 1400 DPS on Teron last night. 1 Heroism, 1 drum, lotp, BS and EW. No haste pots, no twisting.

I'm a resto shammy, and respecced last night just to see how my DPS would work out (mostly for fun, and we have no enh shammy atm).
I'm wearing quite a few Kara pieces and some end-game pieces, and also a blue ring from a regular 70 instance and lvl62 quest reward trinket from HP :P
I could use a regeming on my pants aswell (very old and did the geming very very long time ago).

Anyway, I dont even have a Enh totem in my totem slot.. My gear is far from optimal, and i still produced some decent numbers there, so yes I agree. 1k DPS on Teron seems modest if you are a raiding Enh shammy.
I know it's been awhile since this post, but i thought i'd post a decent WWS from me to compare to Kyuki's.

Kwatee - WWS

I don't remember what gear she was using, but i know it wasn't optimal, and neither is mine, so perhaps we can get a decent comparison. Minus weapons, my gear is pretty close to Keiji's i think.
#7385SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Psykhe
Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least). So if WF procs on the MH and OH at the same time only the MH WF proc will happen since the OHs WF will be canceled since it is then in the WF cooldown.

So, assuming WF isn't on cooldown because of a proc in the last 3 seconds, on the MH you have a 30% chance to proc WF while on the OH you have a 0.7 (no MH wf proc chance) * 0.3 (OH WF proc chance) -> 0.21 -> 21% chance to proc WF.

Same number of white damage + stormstrike attacks + ~50% more WF proc attacks on MH -> more MH weapon enchantment procs.
I've never seen anything resembling this math, and it directly conflicts with the OP. Am I confused and misunderstanding you?
#7386SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Otion
I posted the following in the Wowhead forums where I was promptly challenged to repost it in this thread. I suppose I'm second guessing whatever you guys at EJ have already done to figure out why 2.6 s is the best weapon speed, but if someone could point out my mistake(s), I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
You're neglecting to account for both Stormstrike and each WF proc hitting a lot harder with slower weapons. Also, we don't base our gear around a 10 minute CD that doesn't even do as much for us as it does for other classes. 2.6 speed isn't some mystical "ideal speed," either--any good enh shaman will tell you that 2.8 > 2.7 > 2.6 > 2.5 etc etc.--every bit you can add to the speed of the weapon will, assuming all other stats are the same, increase your DPS. If you don't believe it, run the sim with a 2.6 spd and a 2.8 spd. Try 2.0 speed if you want.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but there are too many other factors that make it wrong. It's the same kind argument as someone made (believe it or not) in favor of rogues always using two very fast weapons because they'd get more MH poison applications with a faster one--true, but irrelevant when you consider the whole picture.
#7387SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Psykhe
Incorrect. The MH will attack and therefore proc its enchant slightly more often.

This is because of the WF cooldown. While the MH and OH attack at the same time the MH gets "priority" in the calculations (AFAIK, at least).
This has not been proven. It's possible to control which hand appears first in the combat log, but I've never seen a parse which clearly shows that the hand that appears first actually gets the first chance to proc WF. However, it has been demonstrated countless times that the order events appear in the combat log is not nessesarily the order that the server processed the events. If the OH does actually always proc second, it should be fairly easy to prove this, as it would give the OH a 36% (not 30%) lower proc rate than the MH.

However, if your weapons are different speeds, you want Executioner on the slower one (or no Executioner at all).
#7388SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Originally Posted by Gehenna
I know it's been awhile since this post, but i thought i'd post a decent WWS from me to compare to Kyuki's.

Kwatee - WWS

I don't remember what gear she was using, but i know it wasn't optimal, and neither is mine, so perhaps we can get a decent comparison. Minus weapons, my gear is pretty close to Keiji's i think.
What do you mean with comparision? I still only posted because I thought that enh shammies in guilds that kill Teron should produce more than 1k DPS, and I will still not bend to that, but it doesnt really have a meaning or point anyway.
#7389SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I guess to compare what separates a shaman from doing 1k DPS on Teron to one doing 1.4k to one doing 1.8k.

At any rate, i agree with you.
#7390SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Psykhe
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
I've never seen anything resembling this math, and it directly conflicts with the OP. Am I confused and misunderstanding you?
I think so. Please elaborate why you think it conflicts with the OP because I cannot see it.

(Exept me having a brainfart and using a 30% wf procrate. It is 20%.)

Originally Posted by Shalas
This has not been proven. It's possible to control which hand appears first in the combat log, but I've never seen a parse which clearly shows that the hand that appears first actually gets the first chance to proc WF. However, it has been demonstrated countless times that the order events appear in the combat log is not nessesarily the order that the server processed the events. If the OH does actually always proc second, it should be fairly easy to prove this, as it would give the OH a 36% (not 30%) lower proc rate than the MH.
Not..exactly.

Firstly, as said before, I used the incorrect WF procrate. It is 20%, not 30%.
Me playing a rogue 2 years ago still has some backlashes it seems, I keep using the deadly poison procrate for stuff like this if I am not thinking.

The 36% proc rate of the OP comes from *both* weapons.

It is standard probability math. Each weapon has a 20% to proc WF on attack, meaning it has a 80% chance NOT to proc it per attack. The chance for both weapons NOT to proc it is 0.8 * 0.8 -> 0.64 or 64%, meaning the chance to proc it with either MH or OH - or both - is 36%. If you ignore the dual wield miss chance.

But, yes, the OH should have a smaller amount of WF procs. 20% less than the MH, though, not 36%.



The thing about the "order" of attacks - if both attacks happen at the same time there can be three ways how WoW is calculating it:

- it always calculates MH first, OH second
- it always calculates OH first, MH second
- it uses a randomizer for each attack of both hands at the same time to see which hand is calculated first.

The second options seems kinda strange and illogical.
The 3rd option.. why use a randomizer? Having a fixed MH first, OH second is far simpler and uses fewer recources and I donot see any balance or gameplay reasons why they would have to make it more complex.
#7391SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Frostspock
My shammy recently acquired Fury in ZA. I did have dual Decaptitators (both w/ mongoose). However, from what I've read since Fury is a higher DPS weapon (and an OH weapon) I should just keep the Decapitator in my offhand cause it will hurt my dps? Is that right? Just wondering cause I just got mongoose put on the Fury off hand. Thanks guys this thread is incredibly useful for those of us still learning.
#7392SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Doora
Having more dps, same speed, and more valuable stats(30ap 8str 20hit vs 27crit), I'd say Fury should be a better off hand option than decapitator.

Unless running the sim point you to prioritize crit rating heavily, there is nothing agaist having more dps on your offhand than on your main hand
#7393SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rodandwa
Originally Posted by Frostspock
My shammy recently acquired Fury in ZA. I did have dual Decaptitators (both w/ mongoose). However, from what I've read since Fury is a higher DPS weapon (and an OH weapon) I should just keep the Decapitator in my offhand cause it will hurt my dps? Is that right? Just wondering cause I just got mongoose put on the Fury off hand. Thanks guys this thread is incredibly useful for those of us still learning.
Fury main hand, Decapitator off-hand would be the better DPS combo, but since Fury is off-hand only, off-handing it with Decapitator will not lower your DPS. Go Decapitator main/Fury off.
#7394SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Psykhe
Not..exactly.

Firstly, as said before, I used the incorrect WF procrate. It is 20%, not 30%.
Me playing a rogue 2 years ago still has some backlashes it seems, I keep using the deadly poison procrate for stuff like this if I am not thinking.

The 36% proc rate of the OP comes from *both* weapons.

It is standard probability math. Each weapon has a 20% to proc WF on attack, meaning it has a 80% chance NOT to proc it per attack. The chance for both weapons NOT to proc it is 0.8 * 0.8 -> 0.64 or 64%, meaning the chance to proc it with either MH or OH - or both - is 36%. If you ignore the dual wield miss chance.
When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented. Each "pair" of attacks has a 59.04% chance of a WF proc. This is a mostly meaningless number which says nothing useful, though.

Originally Posted by Psykhe
The thing about the "order" of attacks - if both attacks happen at the same time there can be three ways how WoW is calculating it:

- it always calculates MH first, OH second
- it always calculates OH first, MH second
- it uses a randomizer for each attack of both hands at the same time to see which hand is calculated first.

The second options seems kinda strange and illogical.
The 3rd option.. why use a randomizer? Having a fixed MH first, OH second is far simpler and uses fewer recources and I donot see any balance or gameplay reasons why they would have to make it more complex.
Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.
#7395SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Touf
Originally Posted by Gehenna
I guess to compare what separates a shaman from doing 1k DPS on Teron to one doing 1.4k to one doing 1.8k.
Fight length, mainly.
#7396SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shalas
Or it could work how everything else in WoW appears to work: There are seperate scheduled events for each hand. Each of these events have a very high chance of getting processed by different worker threads, and which one finishes first depends entirely on which one the thread manager happens to give more CPU time to. An entirely deterministic process, which from our perspective is nearly indistinguishable from random selection.
Actually, this is the definition of "indeterministic" process (one where two runs can produce different outcomes). You are right that it is random, but it really isn't the same as purposely "rolling," it's simply an accident of asynchronous processing.

The reason for it makes sense when you think about it. Despite some of the great speculation on the issue, there's nothing really all that special about having two weapons of the same speed. Two same speed weapons will still have two separate swing timers producing two separate cycles and there's not even any guarantee that two weapons of the same speed will swing at the same time -- indeed, if you start and stop autoattack in combat, your offhand will be at least half a cycle out of sync with your main hand. Thus, it makes sense that each hand is treated as its own separate entity for purposes of evaluation, and it also makes sense that these evaluations may occur in any order, provided that they occur at the same "instant."

Simulators, on the other hand, no doubt evaluate the MH first over the OH, which will give the MH a bias that may not exist in game (the "spikes" in the MH vs OH graph). Anybody got two same-speed weapons and a good, real-world evaluation of MH vs OH procs and a comparison with simulations of the same gear?
#7397SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by tepee007
I've got a few questions I hope some peeps can help me out with

1. What's the best shock rotation and or best way to do damage (ie flame shock stormstrike then earthshock), I'm having a hard time on meters and wondering if I'm doing something wrong.

2. What's more important crit or ap?

3. What is the best legendary weapon to use on the Kael fight?

4. I'm rocking mongoose/crusader right now, will mongoose/mongoose be a noticeable upgrade?

5. I'm setting at around 120ish on hit, is this enough after talents, should I get more or can I drop some?
This is sad.
You obviously didn't read the OP.....just like many, many others.
#7398SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Shalas
When you have two weapons with WFW on them, each individual hit has a 36% chance to proc WF. This is a bug which has always existed and is very well documented.
This is what I was referring to as Psycke contradicting the OP. I know 20% is what the tooltip on the skill says, but that's not the reality of the skill, based on extensive testing.
#7399SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i have not had a chance to read all 300 pages of this thread. i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here. for my rogue i have a exel spreadsheet that i can plug the armor that i currently have(armor, gems, weapons, enchants) and i can input my talent spec and then i hit a button and it lets me know a list of upgrades for that slot. Max DPS web site is close but doesn't have the plug in option my rogue one has. is there a exel spreadsheet file that i can download out there for enhancement shaman? if some1 has posted one in this thread that i have missed i am sorry but i missed it. i just want the number crunching to be a bit easier for me. i have a lot of good gear and am nowhere near what it seems i shood be in dps. granted i have been healing for 6 months and am not used to it but i shood be doing better IMO. i am a top 5 dps when i raid on my rogue so i know hoe to dps but need a lil help w/ my shammy.
#7400SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3tetracycloide
Originally Posted by buzzed1979
i have browsed alot of it but what i want doesn't seem to be in here.
Far be it from me to call you a liar but did it seems almost impossible that one could manage to browse 'alot of it' without managing to read the entire first post. Try looking under '3 Itemizing an Enhancement Shaman' for an answer to your query.
#7401SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i did say browsed. ty for the help. but when i click the link i don't see a speadsheet. there is a spot that is all grayed out at the top and then a bunch of q and a after it. am i missing something?
#7402SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Kasi
Well you can use Loot Rank. That seemed to work pretty well using the weight values given. However that just gives a rank of items, not a rank of items based off of items you already have. The other thing is that they don't seem to model RED very well.
#7403SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
The mathcraft for an enhancement shaman is more complex than a rogue. We don't use formulas, we use combat simulators and determine the impact of each stat.

Run yo's simulator with your stats and get your EP values. Copy them into lootrank to figure out what would the best upgrades for you.
#7404SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
the simulator does show for me all i get is a gray box w/ questions and answers under it. i go to the page and mouse over the box and it sez click to activate and use this control and when i do it just stays grayed out
#7405SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
i am running enhancer in game aswell
#7406SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
Originally Posted by buzzed1979
the simulator does show for me all i get is a gray box w/ questions and answers under it. i go to the page and mouse over the box and it sez click to activate and use this control and when i do it just stays grayed out
Try updating Java. And correct your grammar/capitalization/punctuation before a mod sees it.
#7407SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Executioner, again

A few posts back someone claimed that Exe/Mong was equivalent to Mong/Exe with equal-speed weapons. While other parts of his post have been discussed, this was pretty much ignored.

My understanding is that in the cases where Exe is superior to Mong (it depends on how much penetration you already have on your gear), it is superior on the MH ONLY, because it only applies to hits from the weapon it's on. Contrast this with Mongoose- when it procs, all attacks benefit from the additional Agi and haste.
#7408SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3buzzed1979
That worked thank you very much. I will try to capitolize from now on.
#7409SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Wundorn
A few posts back someone claimed that Exe/Mong was equivalent to Mong/Exe with equal-speed weapons. While other parts of his post have been discussed, this was pretty much ignored.

My understanding is that in the cases where Exe is superior to Mong (it depends on how much penetration you already have on your gear), it is superior on the MH ONLY, because it only applies to hits from the weapon it's on. Contrast this with Mongoose- when it procs, all attacks benefit from the additional Agi and haste.
Sim disagrees :S and to my knowledge I've never seen or been suggested executioner procs only allow the weapon it's enchanted on to gain the benefit. The reason MH vs OH enchant matters is for different speed weapons 2.6 vs 2.8, atleast is my understanding
#7410SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
I always thought that executioner applies to both weapons, which is why putting it on both hands causes it to refresh the duration instead of having two buffs.
#7411SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Shiyo
I always thought that executioner applies to both weapons, which is why putting it on both hands causes it to refresh the duration instead of having two buffs.
I believe the mechanics make it such that having Exe on MH provides most DPS because if the MH applies Exe, and then Procs WF, you get 2 Exe WF'd hits from the MH, which will do a lot more than the OH...

Simming might not be completely accurate for testing, as the underlying mechanics of which weapon hits first may not be modeled exactly as it works in game. However, it has been shown that stop attacking, and starting will generally cause the MH to get the first hit...
#7412SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Executioner is:
Occasionally ignore 840 of your enemy's armor.

Executiner is NOT:
Occasinal ignore 840 of your enemys's armor for only this hand weapon and if you use two executioner only one can be active at one time without any logigal reason.
Please dont post if you dont know what you are saying.
#7413SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
I just played around with Yo!s sim this afternoon to test the new 2.4 stuff and wether maybe there would be mail stuff worth picking up. I did use the EP-values given by Yo!s "best-dps" lootrank link and was very glad to find belt, shoes and wrist at topranked or on the second place. This made me test with the sim if there was any combination of those 3 t6 parts and any of the 5 others worth taking over all the rogue stuff (which sadly still dominates the enh-shamans best-loot-list) and came out with a rather close (but still) "NO".
(did use the same combination of buffs as Yo! and came up with 2379dps for the "rogue" version and 2364dps for the 4t6 version)
I just wanted to let you know that shaman itemisation still s%cks

If anyone want to verify for themselves:
shaman-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
rogue-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (topranked lootrank items)

I just modeled the proc of Shard of Contempt like a "230AP for 20sec every minute = 83AP" (though cd is only 45sec, just to be sure)

edit: Oh man, just found a typo in the "rogue" one. It's only 2322 dps. So, get yourself some mail
#7414SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Tier 6 pieces aren't upgraded to the actual "stamina" version. But the difference is still very small.

But the main point is, you are not competing for shoulder and the new tier slots, the only interesting items (for a leatherworker) are head/legs.

You should just wait, until the itemisation for hunter and shaman hit the patch until you try to compare all those things in detail. It can't be finished right now, we're still missing some pieces. Shoulders are hot, legs are decent. Chest and head are still missing as far as i know.

And a personal note, i would go for 4 t6 any day (with the three new pieces) for the style of the shoulders
#7415SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Omniro
I just played around with Yo!s sim this afternoon to test the new 2.4 stuff and wether maybe there would be mail stuff worth picking up. I did use the EP-values given by Yo!s "best-dps" lootrank link and was very glad to find belt, shoes and wrist at topranked or on the second place. This made me test with the sim if there was any combination of those 3 t6 parts and any of the 5 others worth taking over all the rogue stuff (which sadly still dominates the enh-shamans best-loot-list) and came out with a rather close (but still) "NO".
(did use the same combination of buffs as Yo! and came up with 2379dps for the "rogue" version and 2364dps for the 4t6 version)
I just wanted to let you know that shaman itemisation still s%cks

If anyone want to verify for themselves:
shaman-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
rogue-version: chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta (topranked lootrank items)

I just modeled the proc of Shard of Contempt like a "230AP for 20sec every minute = 83AP" (though cd is only 45sec, just to be sure)

edit: Oh man, just found a typo in the "rogue" one. It's only 2322 dps. So, get yourself some mail
I dont know about you, but for me the DST > Madness, so the two best trinkets would be DST+SoC for me at least. Any particular reason you've chosen Madness over DST?
#7416SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
Is there a way to see how stats will change with different gear so I can run Yo simulator to analyze which gear provides the best upgrade?
#7417SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34679

Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve - Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve - Items - World of Warcraft


Interesting notes about these pendants:

- Pendant of Might has a direct damage "Arcane Strike" if you're Scryer, and a 200ap/10sec buff if you're Aldor.
- Pendant of Resolve has a +100 expertise/10sec buff if you're Scryer.

Has anybody done any math on either to see if they may be secretly superior to Serrated Blades/Hard Khorium/Whatever?
#7418SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Since I can't get to my own personal EP values, I'll just use the T6 values listed on the front page:

18 Agi = 30.42 EP
64 AP = 64 EP
Passive EP: 94.4

If the proc has the same cooldown as all the trinkets, etc. (45 seconds), it's reasonable to assume that it will proc at worst once per minute for the sake of argument, so:

Scryer: (100 crit rating x 1.74 EP/crit) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 29 EP minimum
Aldor: (200 AP x 1EP/AP) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 33 EP minimum

Total ~124 EP for Scryer, 128 for Aldor. Not better than Serrated Blades, let alone the Hard Khorium neck. Obviously that assumes the typical trinket internal CD, which may be totally wrong for necks. My guess is that it won't be terribly far off, though, considering you can get it just for grinding rep. It's a pretty solid step above Kara loot, though, which makes it significantly better than all the other exalted faction rewards, even the expertise LC ring.

Obviously this is mostly meaningless speculation since we have no real data on the proc mechanics, so insert grains of salt as thou wilt.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 02/26/08 at 1:21 PM.
#7419SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
Since I can't get to my own personal EP values, I'll just use the T6 values listed on the front page:

18 Agi = 30.42 EP
64 AP = 64 EP
Passive EP: 94.4

If the proc has the same cooldown as all the trinkets, etc. (45 seconds), it's reasonable to assume that it will proc at worst once per minute for the sake of argument, so:

Scryer: (100 crit rating x 1.74 EP/crit) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 29 EP minimum
Aldor: (200 AP x 1EP/AP) x 10 sec / 60 sec = 33 EP minimum

Total ~124 EP for Scryer, 128 for Aldor. Not better than Serrated Blades, let alone the Hard Khorium neck. Obviously that assumes the typical trinket internal CD, which may be totally wrong for necks. My guess is that it won't be terribly far off, though, considering you can get it just for grinding rep. It's a pretty solid step above Kara loot, though, which makes it significantly better than all the other exalted faction rewards, even the expertise LC ring.

Obviously this is mostly meaningless speculation since we have no real data on the proc mechanics, so insert grains of salt as thou wilt.
FYI, the Scryer version does NOT grant crit rating. It actually procs a spell called Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike - Spells - World of Warcraft) that does 500 damage to the current target.

I'm also interested in the Pendent of Resolve with its huge Expertise proc..
#7420SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Has the internal cooldown on windfury on haste been completely shot down? I have hundreds of haste pots, dst, and quite a bit of haste gear paired with quite a bit of free time and a copy of my shaman on the ptr, if anyone could tell me how to test it (if it still needs testing). I grabbed the wf cd addon, anything else I need to know/download?
I did not see a response to this. Dukanull did you do any testing?
#7421SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
I dont know about you, but for me the DST > Madness, so the two best trinkets would be DST+SoC for me at least. Any particular reason you've chosen Madness over DST?
Well, I saw the very high Armor Penetration on the gear (over 1k) and also used Executioner on the MH. And as it is (I think) the more ArmorPen one has the better gets every next point of it. Madness provides an ArmorPen buff so it was about logical for me to go for that.
I'd be happy if you have time to run the numbers to prove me wrong or right
#7422SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Don't forget this beauty when comparing future trinket choices:

Blackened Naaru Sliver
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70.
Equip: Increases Haste Rating by 54.
Equip: Chance on hit to enter a Battle Trance, during which your melee or ranged attacks will grant 44 attack power, stacking up to 10 times. Expires after 20 sec.

Depending on the procrate on that, I'd say it's damn sexy.
#7423SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Grekk
EDIT: My assumption has been proven wrong, check the next page for the explanation.

Concerning Haste:

It may be true that any haste will increase your overall DPS even if it brings your speed below 1.5 but it has one side effect:

It decreases the relative weight of hasterating and therefore the use of Heroism/Bloodlust/Drums.

I did some testing using Yo!s Simulator (adding 30% haste) and got the following results:
(using 2.8MH and 2.6OH)
In my case the 5.9% passive haste combined with dual Mongoose and heroism (and of course flurry) will bring my
MH speed to about 1.5x, once i use drums it drops to 1.4x. (the Sim takes care of Mongoose and Flurry)

passive haste | dps
5.9% 1419
35.9% 1675

10.9%(drums) 1461
40.9% 1687

the DPS gain from drums without Heroism up: 42
the DPS gain from drums with Heroism up: 12

this leads me to the conclusion that the value of haste is lowered by a factor of (in my case) 0.286 once your are below 1.5 speed.

If you spent the entire fight hasted over this 'cap' the AEP weight of haste would drop by OVER 70%!
If you spent half of the fight hasted, it would still be over 35%, which is rather significant when choosing gear.

Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5. Any haste before this is worth exactly as much as Yos Simulator tells you. The new AEP weight is dependant on the length of the fight relative to the hasted time.
(the same with usable trinkets that are best if the fight is exactly 140 seconds long)

My calculated haste-AEP is 1.81.
If the fight is 3 minutes (180 seconds) long, i will spend 25% of the Time hasted to 1.4x.
So basically 25% of the time my haste (beyond the 'cap') is only worth 28.6% of it's original value (loses 71.4%).
Over the whole fight haste will therefore lose 0.25*0.714 = 0.1785 = 17.85% of it's original value.
My haste-AEP for a 3 minute fight where heroism always puts me below the 'cap' is (1-0.1785)*1.81 = 1.4869.

correct me if I'm wrong :P

Last edited by Grekk : 02/26/08 at 11:25 PM. Reason: clarification
#7424SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Illundai
Don't forget this beauty when comparing future trinket choices:

Blackened Naaru Sliver
Binkenstein was doing some leg work on figuring out how to model that stacking effect, I think he said he had it figured it out. I'll check with him about it.
#7425SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Grekk
Concerning Haste:

It may be true that any haste will increase your overall DPS even if it brings your speed below 1.5 but it has one side effect:

It decreases the relative weight of hasterating and therefore the use of Heroism/Bloodlust/Drums.

I did some testing using Yo!s Simulator (adding 30% haste) and got the following results:

passive haste | dps
5.9% 1419
35.9% 1675

10.9%(drums) 1461
40.9% 1687

the DPS gain from drums without Heroism up: 42
the DPS gain from drums with Heroism up: 12

this leads me to the conclusion that the value of haste is (in my case) lowered by a factor of 0.286 once your are below 1.5 speed.

If you spent the entire fight hasted over this 'cap' the AEP weight of haste would drop by OVER 70%!
If you spent half of the fight hasted, it would still be over 35%, which is rather significant when choosing gear.

correct me if I'm wrong :P
Expanding from this, it would also seem to show that you gain the most benefit from haste items (pots, bloodlust, and drums) by using them individually, rather than all at once. It looks like I should start using haste potions in rotation with my drums and bloodlust. Probably I'll be burning the drums first, since the buff is slightly smaller and I'll be less likely to pull aggro as a result.

Of course, that has nothing to do with AEP values for haste...

I'd guess that the AEP value doesn't magically plummet once you break 1.5, but rather that it scales proportionately, such that as you build haste rating, the value of additional points lessens. This means that there would be some theoretical point at which additional haste rating is worth less than any other stat. It's been a long time since I was interpolating graphs, but if you can get me, say, 5 points of data (evenly spaced by haste rating increases preferred), I can see if I can come up with a formula for calculating haste value. Sure hope I remember the math correctly - I'll post it all here so other people can verify it.

Keep in mind that pretty much any enhance shaman in a raid will have nearly 100% uptime of flurry, for an automatic 30% haste right off the bat.

Something else: As haste rating increases, and the cooldown of stormstrike (as well as the 3-second cooldown of WF) remains static, the percentage of hits that are white damage vs. those that are yellow damage will increase. Thus, hit rating will gain in value as haste rating increases. Might be worth investigating whether or not the percentage change in white hits vs. yellow hits is significant enough to warrant a greater AEP for hit rating when using lots of haste buffs.

Conversely, people with almost no haste rating on their gear may reach a point at which their weapons are so powerful and slow that the haste rating to gloves enchant outperforms 15 strength. I personally doubt it, but while I'm spouting ideas, I figured I'd throw this one out there, too.

Something else I thought of - as your haste rating increases, the number of hits that you get during the duration of timed buffs will increase, thus increasing the value of those buffs. Anyone want to run some sims and see if it's more valuable to stack haste potions and drums that increase AP than to rotate haste drums and haste potions? I'm assuming from the OP that stacking haste drums and haste pots is automatically less dps than rotating them.

Likewise, stacking more haste will increase the value of items that provide timed buffs, such as the stonebreaker's totem. I don't think that any significant changes in top gear will result though, since most of those buff items are either already top-level, or provide buffs of such short duration as to be relatively insignificant AEP changes from 1 or 2 extra hits of haste.
#7426SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Seidule
FYI, the Scryer version does NOT grant crit rating. It actually procs a spell called Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike - Spells - World of Warcraft) that does 500 damage to the current target.

I'm also interested in the Pendent of Resolve with its huge Expertise proc..
Ah! Interesting. I was going off what the people said in the wowhead comments and hadn't seen the Arcane Strike spell. Only the Aldor comparison is at all relevant then.

I think the Pendant of Resolve is going to be fairly useless for us, given that the expertise cap is ~90, and we'll have 44 from the trinket + whatever else you have from other gear. That trinket plus just the three new T6 pieces is well over the cap, which would make the proc do absolutely nothing. I'd much rather have passive expertise than to rely on a proc, or even an on use effect, for it.
#7427SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
I know I've said this in this thread...

Equipping a totem will trigger the GCD, but does not depend on the GCD. This means that a macro like so:
/cast Healing Wave
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
Will result in a Healing Wave, cast with the benefit of Totem of Healing Rains with one button. However:
/equip Totem of Healing Rains
/cast Healing Wave
Will equip the totem, trigger the GCD, and prevent Healing Wave from being cast.

Making a macro like this:
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
/cast Flame Shock
Will not work.

Now it may be interesting to set it up like so:

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker Totem
Obviously the 6 (or 5)s cooldown on shocks would mean you are getting off more shocks than SS so the rotation doesn't work out neatly. That's the only way it would work out w/ GCD's though.
Saw this older post and thought I'd add in a modification that would help to make sure you have Stonebreaker's Totem equipped before casting a shock:

set up both of the shocks as described, with

/cast Flame Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and

/cast Earth Shock
/equip Totem of Astral Winds
and then set up stormstrike and watershield to equip the stonebreaker's totem:

/cast Stormstrike
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
and

/cast Water Shield
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem
The reason for this is because water shield is not on any cooldown other than the GCD, it costs no mana, and it's something that I usually refresh all the time anyway. It also figures that the only time your casting macros wouldn't equip the stonebreaker's totem before a shock was being cast was when stormstrike was on a long cooldown, and you had just used a shock (thereby equipping the totem of astral winds). That's the perfect time to refresh water shield and equip your stonebreaker's - when the gcd is not going to interfere with your rotation.

Of course, you could just equip the stonebreaker's outside of the macro, but why not maximize the utility of a single button press?
#7428SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Othieus
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
Expanding from this, it would also seem to show that you gain the most benefit from haste items (pots, bloodlust, and drums) by using them individually, rather than all at once. It looks like I should start using haste potions in rotation with my drums and bloodlust. Probably I'll be burning the drums first, since the buff is slightly smaller and I'll be less likely to pull aggro as a result.

Of course, that has nothing to do with AEP values for haste...

I'd guess that the AEP value doesn't magically plummet once you break 1.5, but rather that it scales proportionately, such that as you build haste rating, the value of additional points lessens. This means that there would be some theoretical point at which additional haste rating is worth less than any other stat. It's been a long time since I was interpolating graphs, but if you can get me, say, 5 points of data (evenly spaced by haste rating increases preferred), I can see if I can come up with a formula for calculating haste value. Sure hope I remember the math correctly - I'll post it all here so other people can verify it.

Keep in mind that pretty much any enhance shaman in a raid will have nearly 100% uptime of flurry, for an automatic 30% haste right off the bat.

Something else: As haste rating increases, and the cooldown of stormstrike (as well as the 3-second cooldown of WF) remains static, the percentage of hits that are white damage vs. those that are yellow damage will increase. Thus, hit rating will gain in value as haste rating increases. Might be worth investigating whether or not the percentage change in white hits vs. yellow hits is significant enough to warrant a greater AEP for hit rating when using lots of haste buffs.

Conversely, people with almost no haste rating on their gear may reach a point at which their weapons are so powerful and slow that the haste rating to gloves enchant outperforms 15 strength. I personally doubt it, but while I'm spouting ideas, I figured I'd throw this one out there, too.

Something else I thought of - as your haste rating increases, the number of hits that you get during the duration of timed buffs will increase, thus increasing the value of those buffs. Anyone want to run some sims and see if it's more valuable to stack haste potions and drums that increase AP than to rotate haste drums and haste potions? I'm assuming from the OP that stacking haste drums and haste pots is automatically less dps than rotating them.

Likewise, stacking more haste will increase the value of items that provide timed buffs, such as the stonebreaker's totem. I don't think that any significant changes in top gear will result though, since most of those buff items are either already top-level, or provide buffs of such short duration as to be relatively insignificant AEP changes from 1 or 2 extra hits of haste.
So basicly you're saying that it works like Armor Penetration does, except opposite.
#7429SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Concerning haste I just steal the graphics from the Rawr-Thread (thx to the auther):
wf procs vs. haste rating


flurry uptime vs. haste rating


1% haste does increase dmg by roughly 1% (all that has no cd, so basicly white dmg) . White dmg is about 40% of our dmg. 1% haste = 0.4% dmg increase. But as you can see in the first image there is a point where windfury procrate is breaking in by 2.5% (WF being about 30%) so at this point 1%haste does lead to : +0.4% dmg - 0.75% dmg = -0.35%

I think this is about right, ain't it?
#7430SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3CeNo65
This is going to sound bad. I know it shouldn't work. I didn't think it would work. Yet, it does.

/castsequence reset=12/combat Flame Shock(Rank 7),Earth Shock(Rank 8)
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem

I tested swapping from no relic to Stonebreaker's and from a healing relic to Stonbreaker's. Latency might be the cause. In the first zone i tested it my latency was at 150ms. In the second zone it was 200ms. Any fios folks want to try this out? I am west coast and i believe my server is located in Boston.
#7431SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Omniro
Originally Posted by CeNo65
This is going to sound bad. I know it shouldn't work. I didn't think it would work. Yet, it does.

/castsequence reset=12/combat Flame Shock(Rank 7),Earth Shock(Rank 8)
/equip Stonebreaker's Totem

I tested swapping from no relic to Stonebreaker's and from a healing relic to Stonbreaker's. Latency might be the cause. In the first zone i tested it my latency was at 150ms. In the second zone it was 200ms. Any fios folks want to try this out? I am west coast and i believe my server is located in Boston.
Just a quick sidenote: It always DID work.. for any kind of "range" slot item. Librams, Idols, Totems.
Just as starting to cast a heal and swapping to healer weapon/shield does work. But not the other way around.
#7432SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan
Binkenstein was doing some leg work on figuring out how to model that stacking effect, I think he said he had it figured it out. I'll check with him about it.
I thought it was the blue expertise/flat ap buff item that you asked about?

That said, it spawned the whole proc rate discussion, and finding out that the rogues had a formula all along!
I'll see what I can work out for the stacking buff in an "average AP value" based on weapon speeds.

[e]there's nothing on wowhead, so I can't check the trance duration/chance either

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/26/08 at 5:58 PM.
#7433SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Post said formula please.
#7434SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
D = Duration of the buff
p = Chance the the buff procs on any given attack
v = Number of attacks that can trigger the proc that occur in a given second, and
c = Internal cooldown of the trinket
U = uptime, then

u=D/(c+(1/VP))

It's in the proc mechanics wiki entry (Malan can read it, the rest of you probably can't). Only difference is I went V/P rather than 1/VP, but it works out the same anyway.

DW V = AB/(A+B) where A & B = weapon speeds
#7435SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3kijik
Question in short, I have some badges saved up, but I am also looking to stack armor penetration to an extent, and thus I am pondering buying Dory's Embrace, BUT, Vanir's Right and Left Fist of Brutality are going to become available in 2.4, and I am wondering whether I should save badges for those, or go again and burn my dkp on Syphons in BT. Also, keep in mind that I do not have DST and do not forsee myself obtaining a DST in the near future, rather I will be picking up the Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's.

Thank you for any light you can shed on the subject.

Edit: Of course when I enter SWP with my guild I'll be picking up Mounting Vengeance ASAP.
#7436SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tulaugu
I've been studying the main post and the calculations now for a few days and first off all I'd like to say that it's impressive work, since it also seems to really work like mentioned above.
I only have two questions that keep bugging me a little bit.

1. Is there already any progress on "the most effective talent build"?
2. What's the EP value of a meta socket. Take for instance RED. It's not hard to calculate the EP value of 12 agility, tho the 3% crit damage seems a bit hard for me. I hope there is a solution for that.

My thanks

-Tulaugu-

p.s. Maybe it has already been asked before, if there is an awnser, please put it in the main post. I was not really motivated to dig through over 200 pages.
#7437SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Khlysti
Originally Posted by Grekk
Concerning Haste:

It may be true that any haste will increase your overall DPS even if it brings your speed below 1.5 but it has one side effect:

It decreases the relative weight of hasterating and therefore the use of Heroism/Bloodlust/Drums.

I did some testing using Yo!s Simulator (adding 30% haste) and got the following results:
(using 2.8MH and 2.6OH)
In my case the 5.9% passive haste combined with dual Mongoose and heroism (and of course flurry) will bring my
MH speed to about 1.5x, once i use drums it drops to 1.4x. (the Sim takes care of Mongoose and Flurry)

passive haste | dps
5.9% 1419
35.9% 1675

10.9%(drums) 1461
40.9% 1687

the DPS gain from drums without Heroism up: 42
the DPS gain from drums with Heroism up: 12

this leads me to the conclusion that the value of haste is lowered by a factor of (in my case) 0.286 once your are below 1.5 speed.

If you spent the entire fight hasted over this 'cap' the AEP weight of haste would drop by OVER 70%!
If you spent half of the fight hasted, it would still be over 35%, which is rather significant when choosing gear.

Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5. Any haste before this is worth exactly as much as Yos Simulator tells you. The new AEP weight is dependant on the length of the fight relative to the hasted time.
(the same with usable trinkets that are best if the fight is exactly 140 seconds long)

My calculated haste-AEP is 1.81.
If the fight is 3 minutes (180 seconds) long, i will spend 25% of the Time hasted to 1.4x.
So basically 25% of the time my haste (beyond the 'cap') is only worth 28.6% of it's original value (loses 71.4%).
Over the whole fight haste will therefore lose 0.25*0.714 = 0.1785 = 17.85% of it's original value.
My haste-AEP for a 3 minute fight where heroism always puts me below the 'cap' is (1-0.1785)*1.81 = 1.4869.

correct me if I'm wrong :P
Before I go any further, the important thing to always remember with the '1.5 speed point' is that while haste may have smaller returns in terms of dps when crossing this point, any meaningful amount will still be a dps increase.

Now, to give a full run down on the set I used for the sim, (as standard for me, I use my own char as a base).

AP: 1932 Crit: 31.48 Hit: 17.48 Haste: 4.76 Armour Penetration: 252
MHDPS: 100.3 MHSpeed: 2.8 MHExp: 0 OHDPS: 100.3 OHSpeed: 2.8 OHExp: 0
Spell Hit: 1 Spell Crit: 5 Strength: 216 Agility: 328

I used Dual Mongoose, Madness of the Betrayer, Stonebreaker Totem, 24 shocks per minute and no waiting for SS use.
5/5 Concussion, 3/3 Call of Flame and 5/5 Reverberation. (other talent tick boxes as default)
Default for Buffs/Debuffs except: Improved Hunter's Mark, Expose Weakness, CoR, Solarian's Sapphire.
Boss Armour was set to 6600 (yeah this number is odd, didn't notice till I was done, but it doesn't affect the result).
I also had no haste pots drums etc on the sim as these I would model myself.
Also note that Heroism is an extra 30% multiplier on weapon speed and cannot just be added as +30 to haste% on the sim.

With that listed on to the simming.

This setup gave me a baseline dps of 1853 on the sim.

For now lets assume the shaman is the only leatherworker in the group and as such we can have:
A: Drums + Hero for 30 secs, Hero for 10 secs, nothing for 30 secs or
B: Hero for 40 sec and Drums for 30 sec.

In this case A gives a 2055 average and B gives a 2068 average.

This would appear to suggest that option B (use seperate) is the best idea.
This however is not always true, option B wins here because the mongoose procs on top of drums flurry and hero are just enough to push us fractionally below the 1.5 point, while using drums seperate from hero means we never hit this point. With mongoose off A wins by ~15 dps, with it on B wins by ~13 dps. (the dps with mongoose on is vastly higher than that with it off).

Modifying haste rating to the point that we just clip the 1.5 point without needing mongoose procs sees option B pull out to ~20 dps ahead of option A.

This shows two basic points,
1) haste stacked with hero is better than the two separated
2) crossing the 1.5 point can cause haste to give lower returns

In our example above the clipping is enough that combined with how small the haste gains from the drums is we are better off seperating, we do however still gain dps from drums used during heroism. (I have no numbers here, but I assume that as a group drums + hero is still better than seperate since the other group members don't have the 3 sec WF cooldown to contend with).

We will now assume that drums have 100% uptime (by which I mean that for the peroid at and near to heroism use drums are up full time, this only needs 2-3 leatherworkers, easily achievable in a melee group wanting to max dps).

With haste potions we have a similar choice to before.
A: Hero + Pot for 15 secs, Hero for 25 secs, nothing for 15 secs
B: Hero for 40 secs, Pot for 15 secs.

Staying with the same details from earlier, but with the extra 80 haste rating from drums always on we get:
A = 2210 dps and B = 2203 dps. A having a 7 dps lead.

With no mongoose we see however that B is 9 dps ahead.

Once again this a 1.5 point factor, if Hero + mongoose + haste rating means you are already sub 1.5, then using the pot with the hero is better, if hero + mongoose + haste rating still leaves you just above 1.5, and using the pot on top of hero will take you under it may be better to use them seperately.

Other clickies used during hero will help sway to using a haste pot then too.

The conclusion then.

Whether or not to stack on use haste effects with heroism depends on whether the extra effect is what pushes you through 1.5 speed, if the on use does this it may be better to seperate, if you would cross it anyway then using together is better.

As to haste rating 'getting worse the more you have, as a sort of reverse of Armour Penetration', that is just pure silly talk. If you could hit enough passive haste to reach 1.5 with just passive / flurry / mongoose, then a piece taking you just over may be bad, but with the need to use very slow weapons that amount of haste is not realistic.

Once again (since this really does need saying as often as possible), passive haste that causes hero+flurry+mong to go over the 1.5 point is still a dps increase, just a slightly smaller once, any more passive haste past that point goes back to normal value again, it is just that one piece with a reduced return, and even then its a small reduction. Claims like 'Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5' are plain wrong, as once you have already crossed that point the value is the same as it would be higher than it, only the act of crossing is relevant.
#7438SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grekk
Originally Posted by Khlysti
Before I go any further, the important thing to always remember with the '1.5 speed point' is that while haste may have smaller returns in terms of dps when crossing this point, any meaningful amount will still be a dps increase.

(.toolongtoquote :P..)

Once again (since this really does need saying as often as possible), passive haste that causes hero+flurry+mong to go over the 1.5 point is still a dps increase, just a slightly smaller once, any more passive haste past that point goes back to normal value again, it is just that one piece with a reduced return, and even then its a small reduction. Claims like 'Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5' are plain wrong, as once you have already crossed that point the value is the same as it would be higher than it, only the act of crossing is relevant.
You're right, i just tried the numbers myself. :P

I guess that's what
There is no need to worry about the 1.51 - 1.41 hasted weapon range. The original claims about the supposed DPS loss had done no empirical or simulated testing to back up their modeling. More recent testing has indicated that whatever potential WF DPS is lost because of swing timer issues is more than made up for by the gigantic leap in autoattack DPS.
was about. Sorry to have wasted your time :P

Anyway even though the DPS loss from crossing the 1.5 point is small, wouldn't it still be better to 'invest AEP budget'
into other stats and prevent this happening altogether?
#7439SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Khlysti
As to haste rating 'getting worse the more you have, as a sort of reverse of Armour Penetration', that is just pure silly talk. If you could hit enough passive haste to reach 1.5 with just passive / flurry / mongoose, then a piece taking you just over may be bad, but with the need to use very slow weapons that amount of haste is not realistic.

Once again (since this really does need saying as often as possible), passive haste that causes hero+flurry+mong to go over the 1.5 point is still a dps increase, just a slightly smaller once, any more passive haste past that point goes back to normal value again, it is just that one piece with a reduced return, and even then its a small reduction. Claims like 'Haste AEP goes downhill AFTER your 'Heroism-Speed' is below 1.5' are plain wrong, as once you have already crossed that point the value is the same as it would be higher than it, only the act of crossing is relevant.
Hitting 1.5 with just flurry and passives isn't unrealistic -- it's impossible. Once 2.4 comes out, the absolute maximum passive haste possible for a shaman will be +29%, and +33% is needed. However, if you have 0 haste on your gear and no haste procs other than flurry/mongoose, 2.6 speed weapons will be hasted to almost exactly 1.5 under BL. As a result, the sim might be giving overinflated AEP values for haste. Depending on how it calculates AEP values, it could easily also be giving underinflated values for the first point of haste too, as adding 2 HR is enough to push you under 1.5 seconds with BL/Flurry/Mongoose x1.

With a DST, there's probably a small drop in haste value at 150 haste rating, but that really isn't worth worrying about.

Originally Posted by Grekk
Anyway even though the DPS loss from crossing the 1.5 point is small, wouldn't it still be better to 'invest AEP budget'
into other stats and prevent this happening altogether?
If you have any haste at all, you're already spending part of the fight under the 1.5 level. Adding more haste merely increases that time, which means that haste has a linear (upward) effect on your dps which should be accurately predicted by Yo!'s simulator. It's really not worth second guessing the sim -- if it says an item the best choice, it probably is.
#7440SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Binkenstein
D = Duration of the buff
p = Chance the the buff procs on any given attack
v = Number of attacks that can trigger the proc that occur in a given second, and
c = Internal cooldown of the trinket
U = uptime, then

u=D/(c+(1/VP))

It's in the proc mechanics wiki entry (Malan can read it, the rest of you probably can't). Only difference is I went V/P rather than 1/VP, but it works out the same anyway.

DW V = AB/(A+B) where A & B = weapon speeds
Right, updatery time.

Basic uptime assuming just white hits (I haven't even tried getting a WF model working yet)

A & B are the weapon speed values for calculating V from above.

\frac{AB}{A + B}\
But for simplifying the calculations, I will use V in place of the above.

U = \frac{D}{c + \frac{V}{P}\ }\

Now, the trick with a trinket like this is that we have to calculate the "ramp up" effect of the buff.
This is done using the following, where c is the per-charge buff value

\frac{c(0.5x^2 + 0.5x)}{xV}\ + cx(D-xV)

This should give us an overall buff ap value, which we simply multiply with U to get our average AP value for trinket comparison.

Might want to double check the math though.

[e]D is the duration of the "trance" plus 20 seconds after it.

Last edited by Binkenstein : 02/27/08 at 12:56 AM.
#7441SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
I'm a bit confused by the basic "hits that can proc per second" part:

Originally Posted by Binkenstein
A & B are the weapon speed values for calculating V from above.

\frac{AB}{A + B}\
But for simplifying the calculations, I will use V in place of the above.
putting in 2.6 and 2.6 for the weapon speeds, I get 1.3 hits per second. It seems to me both from that result, and from doing the algebra, that it should be the multiplicative inverse. Shouldn't it be 1/1.3 hits per second = 0.77 hits per second when dual wielding non-haste/flurry 2.6 weapons?

Mainhand / second = 1/speedMH
Offhand / second = 1/speedOH

Total hits / second =

[top] MainhandHPS + OffhandHPS


1/speedMH + 1/speedOH
= (speedOH + speedMH) / speedHM*speedOH

Or, in your terms:
\frac{A + B}{AB}\

I apologize if I'm just being obtuse. I don't try to be dumb, but sometimes it just comes natrually.
#7442SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Now I'm feeling *really* dumb, because there's another part I don't understand. Please feel free to PM me if you don't want to clutter the board. Let's take the formula in question...

Originally Posted by Binkenstein
U = \frac{D}{c + \frac{V}{P}\ }\
So, uptime% = all that jazz.

OK, so let's put some example numbers.
D, duration = 20 seconds
c, cooldown = 60 seconds
V, hits per second that can proc - this is going to be my example variable.
P, proc% per hit = 10%.

So, simplifying your equation, we have:
U = \frac{D}{c + \frac{V}{P}\ }\

U = \frac{20}{60 + \frac{V}{0.1}\ }\

So, all other things being equal, if you have a total of 1 attack per second, this is...
U = \frac{20}{60 + \frac{1}{0.1}\ }\

U = \frac{20}{70}\

U = 0.286

Or, all other things being equal, if you have a total of 2 attacks per second, this is...
U = \frac{20}{60 + \frac{2}{0.1}\ }\

U = \frac{20}{80}\

U = 0.25

Why is it that if you have more attacks per second, all other things remaining equal, that your uptime decreases? Well, I know the answer is "it doesn't", but I guess my real question is... where am I going wrong in understanding the formula?

Thanks much, and again, my apologies for cluttering the board, but I'd really like to understand this.
#7443SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Binkenstein
Ah yeah, sorry.

The variable description was copied from the Proc Mechanics wiki.

My biggest "problem" with algebra atm is handling all those "nested" divisors, but yes, I think you're right.

V = hits per second, so 2 hits would actually be 0.5/0.1 = 5 or 65 seconds rather than 70.

That's what I get for doing everything in my head >.<
#7444SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grekk
One last try to contribute something useful

Also note that Heroism is an extra 30% multiplier on weapon speed
we do however still gain dps from drums used during heroism.
Let us assume that this 30% multiplier increases the value of haste by 30%.

(all stat weights are for my gear, I use HR, DPS, AEP and HR interchangeably)

Using Yo!s simulator I found out that crossing the 1.5 point will cost me 22dps = 63 AEP = 34.8 HR.
To counter this loss, the 30% increase to haste with Heroism up needs to be greater than said 34.8 HR.
  • Using drums that take you below 1.5 when hasted increases their value by:
    80 HR * 0.3 = 24 HR, 24 HR - 34.8 HR = - 10.8 HR
    => You lose 10.8 HR compared to using them while unhasted.

  • Using a haste potion that takes you below 1.5 when hasted increases it's value by:
    400 HR * 0.3 = 120 HR, 120 HR - 34.8 HR = 85.2 HR
    => You gain 85.2 HR after compensationg for the loss.

    (strength should have it's value increased by 30% too, or am I mistaken?)
  • Using an insane strength potion when hasted increases it's value by:
    120 STR * 2.2 = 264 AP / 1.81 = 145.86 HR, 145.86 * 0.3 = 43.76 HR
    => You gain 43.76 HR by using insane strength potions during heroism.

Conclusion (for personal dps):
If drums take you below 1.5 speed, they are worth less than when they are used unhasted.
However if you were to have 100% uptime, canceling the buff is not an option,
as you will lose the (80 * 1.3 - 34.8) = 69.2 HR they still give you.
Even with 0% passive haste and a 2.8 speed weapon haste potions will always take you below 1.5 during Heroism.
Therefore they should be used while hasted as the 30% gain is higher than the 'cross-loss'.

So there are basically 4 possibilites:
(highest dmg first)

You have...
  1. .. so little haste that drums don't take you below 1.5 when hasted.
    => use drums while hasted.
    (unless there is some synergy with the potions if used at the same time that i am not aware of)

  2. .. enough passive haste that drums will take you below 1.5 when hasted.
    => use drums while not hasted.

  3. .. enough passive haste that you are always below 1.5 when hasted but using drums unhasted will not take you below 1.5.
    => use drums while not hasted

  4. .. (for some reason) enough passive haste that using drums will take you below 1.5 even unhasted.
    Unless you are wearing daggers (which you shouldn't) this should never be the case
    => use drums while hasted

Whenever you are in a group of non-shamans you are probably better off using drums when hasted,
as the other classes don't have 3s-WF-CD issues.
So basically it took me three hours to find out what everyone has probably been doing anyway:
Use everything while hasted only


feel free to pick this apart as it's built on assumptions + I was tired :P
#7445SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
I assume that trinkets, etc., can also proc off of specials like Windfury and Stormstrike, though, which is going to complicate that formula further. Add a term:

A = average number of other attacks per second

and leave V as is, the amount of time between each autoattack hit. The formula becomes:

u = D / (c + (1/(P/V + PA)))

Looking at some old WWS reports for the average frequency of WF hits, I get ~ 0.2 hits per second, and if I Stormstrike once every 12 seconds (accounting for waiting for WF to cool down, and latency), that's 2 hits per 12, or 0.17 his per second. V, as calculated for 2.6 speed weapons flurried to 1.82, is 0.91).

u = 20 / (45 + (1/( 0.1/0.91 + 0.1*0.37))) = 0.44

44% uptime seems kind of high, but then, I get 37% if I leave out WF and Stormstrike, so it's not a huge difference. The units work out, anyway. Do WF and SS not actually proc trinkets, and I'm an idiot for including them? Or did I include them incorrectly? (both reasonable possibilities)

[e] Just cleaned up the algebra a bit so it didn't look as messy. It's a little more clear this way, too, and makes me think I'm less crazy.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 02/27/08 at 1:08 PM.
#7446SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Gehenna
Originally Posted by Seidule
FYI, the Scryer version does NOT grant crit rating. It actually procs a spell called Arcane Strike (Arcane Strike - Spells - World of Warcraft) that does 500 damage to the current target.

I'm also interested in the Pendent of Resolve with its huge Expertise proc..
The pendent of resolve will not be good, you should have your expertise capped in 2.4, and +100 expertise will basically do nothing.

In Addition, do not bother with swapping totems as it resets the swing timers, you will not gain DPS, you will lose a massive amount.

Last edited by Gehenna : 02/27/08 at 11:44 AM.
#7447SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Camplord
Yo, a shaman buddy of mine told me to read this thread, OMG at the amount of pages, to find out whats best for offhand, slowwep with WF or fast with Flame. And im having quite a hard time finding it, read that stuff on the first page but there was just a place holder for WF vs Flame so wondering if someone knows on which page this is written if it is at all.

Right now i use Syphon for MH and Swiftsteel in offhand with Flame. In raids im a healer most of the time but once in a while when we have alot of healers signed i get to spec Enhancement aswell. And our ordinary Enhancement shammy uses what you have written in this thread, Syphon and Rising with WF in both and he has better gear then i do, not alot but better nevertheless. And i say this cause i win dps on 7 out of 10 bosses and on all trash, and still all shamans i know tell me to get a slow offhand and use WF on it, but i cant get myself to do it since none of these shamans has never outdpsed me. So i wanted you guys to explain to me=) my char name is Campsama, so if you check armory you should see my enhancement gear atm.

So from my point of view atm its like slow weps with WF in both hands has the potential to do more dmg but most of the time they dont, while fast offhand with flame gives a more stable but rather high dps. And it feels like a stable dps is better then a maybe high dps=)
#7448SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Camplord
Right now i use Syphon for MH and Swiftsteel in offhand with Flame. In raids im a healer most of the time but once in a while when we have alot of healers signed i get to spec Enhancement aswell. And our ordinary Enhancement shammy uses what you have written in this thread, Syphon and Rising with WF in both and he has better gear then i do, not alot but better nevertheless. And i say this cause i win dps on 7 out of 10 bosses and on all trash, and still all shamans i know tell me to get a slow offhand and use WF on it, but i cant get myself to do it since none of these shamans has never outdpsed me. So i wanted you guys to explain to me=) my char name is Campsama, so if you check armory you should see my enhancement gear atm.

So from my point of view atm its like slow weps with WF in both hands has the potential to do more dmg but most of the time they dont, while fast offhand with flame gives a more stable but rather high dps. And it feels like a stable dps is better then a maybe high dps=)
I can only assume the shamans on your server/that you play with are horribly bad and plain suck, theres no way that WF/Flame will beat WF/WF given the same circumstances. It's not a case of "potentially more dps" it's 100% certified a hundred times over.
#7449SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Camplord
Yo, a shaman buddy of mine told me to read this thread, OMG at the amount of pages, to find out whats best for offhand, slowwep with WF or fast with Flame. And im having quite a hard time finding it, read that stuff on the first page but there was just a place holder for WF vs Flame so wondering if someone knows on which page this is written if it is at all.

Right now i use Syphon for MH and Swiftsteel in offhand with Flame. In raids im a healer most of the time but once in a while when we have alot of healers signed i get to spec Enhancement aswell. And our ordinary Enhancement shammy uses what you have written in this thread, Syphon and Rising with WF in both and he has better gear then i do, not alot but better nevertheless. And i say this cause i win dps on 7 out of 10 bosses and on all trash, and still all shamans i know tell me to get a slow offhand and use WF on it, but i cant get myself to do it since none of these shamans has never outdpsed me. So i wanted you guys to explain to me=) my char name is Campsama, so if you check armory you should see my enhancement gear atm.

So from my point of view atm its like slow weps with WF in both hands has the potential to do more dmg but most of the time they dont, while fast offhand with flame gives a more stable but rather high dps. And it feels like a stable dps is better then a maybe high dps=)
I don't even know where to begin on this because the grammar made my head hurt.

It's an understood that slow/slow with WF imbued on both weapons will always outperform a fast offhand with FT or FB. You can read section 1.1.1 for further explanation.
#7450SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Gehenna
The pendent of resolve will not be good, you should have your expertise capped in 2.4, and +100 expertise will basically do nothing.

In Addition, do not bother with swapping totems as it resets the swing timers, you will not gain DPS, you will lose a massive amount.
Yeah -- I tried the totem swap thing last night and it was disaster. Woops!
#7451SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Camplord
Thanks for that nice and very meaningful comment on the grammar i dont even care about, hope it made you feel good.

I did read that under 1.1.1 but there wasnt any real wf vs flame but nwm.
#7452SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Camplord
Thanks for that nice and very meaningful comment on the grammar i dont even care about, hope it made you feel good.

I did read that under 1.1.1 but there wasnt any real wf vs flame but nwm.
If you read section 3.2.2, you'll notice a comment on using a fast OH and FT as a stopgap measure while you obtain a decent slow weapon for WF/WF (which is stated multiple times is the best weapon imbue combination). Skimming the first post is not the same as reading it. While Malan may not have updated the section specifically on FB and FT viability yet, a little critical thinking goes a long way. We're not here to do that for you.

And the mods take grammar, punctualization, and capitalization (among other things) seriously, so you may want to consider revising your posts.
#7453SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Despite this set back to shaman DPS (net loss of about 10-15% DPS for enhancement shaman), Windfury Weapon is still the best weapon imbue to use – former CM Tseric has stated that the devs have no plans to scale the other weapon buffs to match Windfury.
From the OP.

Flametongue is wrong. Fast weapons are wrong. Fast + flametongue is only a placeholder if for some reason you have a ridiculously high DPS fast off-hand, and your only other choice is a crappy green lvl 68 axe from the AH. If you're outdamaging people using 2 slow weapons with WF, then they either don't know how to gear and you somehow do, or for whatever reason they aren't DPSing to their potential.

And yeah. Part of the beauty of the EJ forums is that it's not the WoW forums. Please don't be lazy about your typing if you want people to respect your opinion here.
#7454SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
I assume that trinkets, etc., can also proc off of specials like Windfury and Stormstrike, though, which is going to complicate that formula further. Add a term:

A = average number of other attacks per second

and leave V as is, the amount of time between each autoattack hit. The formula becomes:

u = D / (c + (1/(P/V + PA)))

Looking at some old WWS reports for the average frequency of WF hits, I get ~ 0.2 hits per second, and if I Stormstrike once every 12 seconds (accounting for waiting for WF to cool down, and latency), that's 2 hits per 12, or 0.17 his per second. V, as calculated for 2.6 speed weapons flurried to 1.82, is 0.91).

u = 20 / (45 + (1/( 0.1/0.91 + 0.1*0.37))) = 0.44

44% uptime seems kind of high, but then, I get 37% if I leave out WF and Stormstrike, so it's not a huge difference. The units work out, anyway. Do WF and SS not actually proc trinkets, and I'm an idiot for including them? Or did I include them incorrectly? (both reasonable possibilities)

[e] Just cleaned up the algebra a bit so it didn't look as messy. It's a little more clear this way, too, and makes me think I'm less crazy.
That's a good way of handling it, although I'd add all the "hits per second" together, then divide by the proc chance, so we're more looking at how to modify V rather than the formula as a whole.

I'll latex everything into one post shortly.
#7455SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tulaugu
I wrote two questions on the previous page but I think they got spammed away a little bit. Is it possible to get some view from you guys on those questions. I'm waiting for the awnsers to move on with changing my shaman from pvp to pve and I'd value some input on those last two points from the elitist jerks community.

Thank you,

-Tulaugu-
#7456SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
This thread has a lot of debate between the two different "main" enhancement specs. There's quite a bit of info there if you're willing to wade through it... I recommend at least skimming. Quick summary, as I remember it, though: the Enh/elem build has the potential for more theoretical DPS, but all-but-prevents twisting, and the theoretical DPS advantage relies entirely on being able to shock every cooldown. Any delay shrinks the gap, and enough delay puts Enh/resto back on top. Enh/resto is the "safe" build, and I think still probably the most popular.

RED is difficult to model because it scales so much with crit and AP. I'd be impressed if anyone could give you any solid numbers that have meaning and aren't a complicated formula taking those two variables as input. Run Yo!'s sim at your current gear level with and without the RED effect.
#7457SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
The discussion of Enh/Ele vs. Enh/Resto has been carried over to another thread here. Without the option of totem twisting in 2.4, Enh/Ele should pull ahead slightly. The testing is still somewhat inconclusive, though.

As for the meta slot, searching through this thread reveals a handful of times where the conversation has come up, and the answer depends on your gear level and stat distribution. The RED is unquestionably the best meta gem slot, and it will provide better returns at higher crit rates. In various places the value of the RED has been tallied to be between 50 and 75 AP.

On these forums it is customary not to sign your posts. As to sifting through a daunting 200 page thread, the search feature can be very helpful. I'll certainly conceed that for your specific prompts a search is not immediate for results, but it is certainly a good place to start.
#7458SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tulaugu
Ah okay. Thank you. I'll dig throght the pages and find it.
If there are 2 specs that are considered best but different, wouldn't it be an idea to add that in the first/main post? That would help a lot and make it easyer for people in the future.

RED calculations are indeed very difficult, that's why I couldn't figure it out aswell probably. At the moment I'm calculating 30 ep's for a meta socket (T5 level). 24 for the agi and 6 for the 3% crit damage. Is that realistic? It would help me a lot for when I'm comparing things like T5 helm with Grimgrin Faceguard (ZA).

-Tulaugu-

[edit] it seems there was a nice response when I was writing this post. Thanks.
#7459SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Stoical
Originally Posted by Camplord
i say this cause i win dps on 7 out of 10 bosses and on all trash, and still all shamans i know tell me to get a slow offhand and use WF on it, but i cant get myself to do it since none of these shamans has never outdpsed me. So i wanted you guys to explain to me=) my char name is Campsama, so if you check armory you should see my enhancement gear atm.
I'm not sure who you're comparing yourself to, but looking at the other level 70 enhancement shaman in your guild, Soilsan and Tsinka are in questing blues/greens, Zorgin is in Kara-level gear w/ hit gems, ap on bracers instead of strength, and strength enchant on weapons instead of exec/mongoose (or even crusader for the cheaper mats), and Mag is in level 60 gear (including Sulfuras). That leaves you and Ugdum. Ugdum is in full PvP gear. You're in 5/5 t6, DST, and full PvE epics, mostly BT-level, except for the badge cloak and a PvP trinket.

I don't know what Ugdum's PvE set looks like, but with that gear disparity, you had better be outdpsing all the enhancement shaman in your guild, even making a massive mistake like equipping a fast OH with FT.
#7460SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
6 EP for +3% crit damage? That's way low.

Use Yo's sim to calculate your EP values WITHOUT RED. Write down the DPS and the DPS per AP. Next, run the sim without calculating EP (cos it's faster), but add RED. Subtract your total DPS WITH RED from the DPS you wrote down without it. Divide that by your DPS per AP without. That's the EP of RED's crit effect.

I got 58 EP when I evaluated it for my own gear.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/27/08 at 5:24 PM.
#7461SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3hozzer
I have not seen anything yet that indicates that totem twisting would not be possible in 2.4. Can you point me to a source for this information?
#7462SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by hozzer
I have not seen anything yet that indicates that totem twisting would not be possible in 2.4. Can you point me to a source for this information?
It is still possible to do it on the PTRs, so one would assume will still be possible after 2.4. Unless blizz change it between now and then (possible).
#7463SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tulaugu
Ah okay. Thank you. I'll dig throght the pages and find it.
If there are 2 specs that are considered best but different, wouldn't it be an idea to add that in the first/main post? That would help a lot and make it easyer for people in the future.
Yes I'll get around to it eventually.
#7464SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Draenorm
Has this been posted yet? Flametongue now reduces healing effects by 50% for 4 seconds when applied. Toughness now reduces the duration of movement impairing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.

Last edited by Draenorm : 02/27/08 at 11:52 PM.
#7465SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
It's being discussed on IRC as we speak.
The tooltips haven't been updated though.
#7466SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Febreze
erm wtf?

Heres a summary Screenshot, the forum posts i found em in are below...


hope the FT is as interesting to you all as it is to me, ill have to dig into my bank for malchazeen. However the SR change is ish



WoW Forums -> *NEW* Huge buffs on the PTR
WoW Forums -> New change on PTR
#7467SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Draenorm
Crappy change for shamanistic rage, I guess the devs felt it needed to be more balanced since we now have a much easier time escaping with instant ghostwolf and 50% duration on snares. An interesting bug with flametongue is it's actually increasing healing done to the target.
#7468SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Draenorm
Has this been posted yet? Flametongue now reduces healing effects by 50% for 5ish seconds when applied. Toughness now reduces the duration of movement imparing effects on you by 10/20/30/40/50%.
We must be come that which we most despise, in order to reach our ultimate form.
#7469SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ChaguraED
what's old is new again

I picture a bunch of shaman dusting off that old Gladiator's Hacker they were ridiculed for buying so long ago.
Least it'll serve them in PvP.
#7470SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Totem GCD reduced to 1second.

on mmo
#7471SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3oglas
New changes are weird. The totem GCD thing I approve of, was REALLY really needed in PVP, 1.5 sec GCD meant 6-7 seconds lost on dropping the essential totems, I wont even go into time loss if you had a rogue on your back while doing it. Its going to be a lot easier now.

The shamanistic rage thing I don't like at all. For one, it was great as a damage reducer in PVE, since it had long duration and some good timing on it would help a lot in overall survivability (RoS phase3, just as an example). In PVP it was even better, I loved my "shieldwall" macro (1h+shield+sham rage), not to mention that if you waited for warlock to put all his nice DOTs on you, then use sham rage, together with resilience it would almost make his DOTs do half damage.

Also, its another problem for threat sensitive fights with the new changes to SR. Before, gaining full mana during 30 seconds of SR meant increasing your TPS around 10-15% during 30 seconds, now it will become a 15 second 30% increase (those numbers are a rough estimate). Couple of lucky WF procs and lucky SR procs - HUGE threat burst.

Dunno what to think of FT yet, I'll wait until I try it out in arena...
#7472SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mulgero
FT change should be quite good for arena's maybe bg's too. Gonna love that fast dagger from ZA since FT doesn't loose that much damage compared to WF when target isn't 3+ level mob. Plus we might have some extra raid utility if bosses/trash aren't immune to it. Also question remains whether it stacks with MS or not.

Imp. gw, toughness (not sure if this still is so good at all), where to get enough points for these? Shamanistic rage change blows but shorter time to gain mana is great and I suppose now SR being immune to dispel 30sec is way too long pvpwise.
#7473SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3everwatch
Originally Posted by Mulgero
FT change should be quite good for arena's maybe bg's too. Gonna love that fast dagger from ZA since FT doesn't loose that much damage compared to WF when target isn't 3+ level mob. Plus we might have some extra raid utility if bosses/trash aren't immune to it. Also question remains whether it stacks with MS or not.

Imp. gw, toughness (not sure if this still is so good at all), where to get enough points for these? Shamanistic rage change blows but shorter time to gain mana is great and I suppose now SR being immune to dispel 30sec is way too long pvpwise.
I don't know if someone already said this. FT is bugged at the moment on PTR. Don't let people get you in duels or try this in BG's until you know it's fixed. Right now it's actually increasing heals by 50% on the target. I did an enhancement pvp spec and duelled a resto shaman for about 10 min before I finally just went oor of him and forced myself to forfeit the duel. It was misreable. He'd get off massive heals and go right back to full, it was BS. I realize it's a bug, just forwarning you to check it when you hit PTR for testing.

Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid.
#7474SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by everwatch
I don't know if someone already said this. FT is bugged at the moment on PTR. Don't let people get you in duels or try this in BG's until you know it's fixed. Right now it's actually increasing heals by 50% on the target. I did an enhancement pvp spec and duelled a resto shaman for about 10 min before I finally just went oor of him and forced myself to forfeit the duel. It was misreable. He'd get off massive heals and go right back to full, it was BS. I realize it's a bug, just forwarning you to check it when you hit PTR for testing.

Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid.
spamstring? they'll just have to put it on you twice as much; won't change much
#7475SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by everwatch
Instant GW + 50% slow duration decresed = OP fyi. You can kite anything except for a druid.
I can't see kiting any class, because kiting requires range.

I can see escaping:
Priests
Rogues without cooldowns
Some locks
Paladins

And two of those were already on the list.

I am severely underwhelmed with our mobility changes. This half-assed way of going about our problems sucks. Just give us the stupid OP druid ability, or give us a stupid OP warrior ability, or a stupid OP rogue ability. Getting it halfsies is a poorly though out move that further increases our role as a chance based class.

With a warrior or a hunter, you know you're going to get that MS affect onto someone, due to ranged application or charge/intercept. With a shaman, it's still a crapshoot.
#7476SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Squidfury
Originally Posted by falonub
spamstring? they'll just have to put it on you twice as much; won't change much

In GW, if you are hamstrung, and they are frost shocked, you will move much faster than they will. That said, you still arent going to get away from a warrior for long. As enhancement it would be better to just face them.

I can see forcing a rogue to sprint, but I wouldnt run too much from a rogue. Probably not worth trying to get them to blow sprint.

Anyway, its not an escape mechanism anyway ( at least reliably). What it does allow ,is us to catch every single class. Noone can escape. Its not a magical fix to the class in and of itself, but its a major buff in my opinion.

The change to flametongue definately makes us much more viable in 2v2. The most successful teams as enhancement seem to be dual DPS. Adding in a healing debuff makes that much better. Enhancement/frost mage will benefit greatly from this.
#7477SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.

Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
#7478SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3McMullet
My question is regarding Executioner and Cloth Bosses.

I know we are still preferred to have Mongoose/Mongoose as stated in the main page. However has anyone done any tests on bosses that are considered "Caster" Bosses (Solarian, Kael, Rage, etc?)

For myself I sport about 1620 AP, 29% crit and 140 Hit with about 120 Armor Ignore. This is my regular gear with Mongoose/Mongoose. This is what I use for most boss fights.

Now when I have been doing the cloth bosses I have been dropping to about 1500 AP and 28% crit, but keeping the 140 Hit and also hitting 520 unbuffed AI. In this case I am seeing some pretty impressive DPS numbers especially when executioner goes off. (Mongoose / Exec)

So my question is... Has there been any simulations run which would support Executioner as the preferred imbue given a cloth boss and a healthy dose of AI already?
#7479SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
Mana gained from a proc is buffed from 15% to 30% to compensate.
#7480SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
It's rediculous how fast you get a full mana bar now.

As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example. I think these latest changes will make enh shammys Very viable in 2's and 3's, with most DPS classes/specs. Going to be interesting to see how it pans out really.

The SR duration "nerf" is very well needed for the latest PvP changes I Think. I would hope for a revert on that, but I guess it's only fair?

The Totem GCD was about time! I think this will generally make life as any shaman spec during raids alot better, and not as frustrating as it can be now at times. Also very needed for PvP. Good change overall

*edit* I know this thread is not about PvP, but I hope it's ok to discuss PTR changes here anyway.
#7481SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Hi there,
I'm checking this thread nearly daily but most time as reader only. Now I have a small question, for which I hope I will not be flamed.

It's about weapon expertise and the AEP value.
There is this necklace available for heroic badges:
+48 Stamina
+22 Hitrating
+21 weapon expertise

To get AEP values i normally use Enhancer to just show me in the tooltip. But it has bugged me why this necklace is performing so miserable. Enhancer showed me an AEP value of 36.3.

My current weights for hitrating and weapon expertise are 1.65 and 3.1 (got with Yo's simulator)

So it's rather easy to calculate
22*1.65+21*3.1=101.4

Am I right or am I missing something?

The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3)

So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise.

If your not telling me I went somewhere wrong, I'll have a look at the code.

PS: If my English is quite bad, sorry I'm not a native speaker but I'm trying to do my best
#7482SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I am uncertain if twisting has been removed from 2.4; if it hasn't, then a 1s GCD for totems is a big deal for totem twisters.

Unfortunately, a 50% SR nerf means twisting is going to be that much harder. In fact, I'd wager that's one reason for the nerf. Why change the WFT mechanic when you can just make it prohibitively expensive to exploit? Twisting is more valuable to a raid than shocking with a resto spec; it's not better than shocking AND striking.
To deal with mana problems during fights I bound WS to my side mouse button and spam it when I have a GCD free. Ofcourse, when they fix WS that'll be out the door, but for now it seems to get me through fights where mana is an issue. I look forward to getting 800-1000 mana back from one SR proc, it might make it worth it to swap in windfuried daggers while SR is going on.
#7483SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Sounds like you already found the answer, its a problem with that mod.
#7484SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).

Any thoughts?
#7485SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
12str is better from a raiding PoV. Enchanting rings is always nice, and will probably benefit you more than most other profs.

The margins are so small however (imo) that I would just go for whatever you think is the most fun/profitable. Good thing that JC and enchanting is profitable when used correctly
#7486SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
Originally Posted by drats
To deal with mana problems during fights I bound WS to my side mouse button and spam it when I have a GCD free. Ofcourse, when they fix WS that'll be out the door, but for now it seems to get me through fights where mana is an issue. I look forward to getting 800-1000 mana back from one SR proc, it might make it worth it to swap in windfuried daggers while SR is going on.
When you say "fix WS" what are you referring to? As far as I have seen it is still working as it has been.
#7487SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Kyuki
As for the latest PTR changes, I really think they are good. If they are truly trying to balance this game, there is no point in giving us someting "OP" as what Disquette suggest for example.
I'll readily admit I'm not a hardcore, or even decent, pvp'er. My issue, in a theoretical sense, is that the changes seem to be akin to moving the branches 4" away from Tantalus instead of 8". But I think from here on I'll stop commenting until I can actually try it.
#7488SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Seidule
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).
Blacksmithing and Leatherworking both offer access to craftables that will help you save your DKP, but neither offer best-in-game items anymore. (Fingers crossed for a major upgrade for Dragonstrike).

However, Leatherworking allows access to drums of battle, which is the equivalent of 20 haste rating. 36.4 EP

2x Ring enchant is worth 8 STR 8 AGI that no other profession gets. 31.12 EP

JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP.

In summary: BS/Leatherworking will get you geared a little easier. If getting gear is not an issue, Leatherworking/Enchanting will give you a 67 EP edge.
#7489SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Seidule
Has anybody done any math to determine what professions would be best at an endgame level?

I'm thinking enchanting (2x ring enchants) and JC (+24 ap gem, etc).

Any thoughts?
Come 2.4 my values show at least two LW items that are top of the line, so LW still goes strong in my opinon. I regret spending the time and money leveling BS now though.
#7490SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vernichter
Seidule, this post from earlier in the thread gives an approximate break-down of the newly introduced Sunwell gear. Note that it was made before the updates to the T6 wrists, boots, and belt. I don't see any way for enchanting to beat out leatherworking in terms of end-game return. [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is very close to best in slot, and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] are by far the best in slot. Add the benefit of drums and leatherworking should be a clear best profession for the Sunwell.
#7491SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'm on PTR right now, twisting is still possible and it's ridiculously easy now with the new GCD. We're raiding Felmyst tonight, so we'll see how the new Shamanistic Rage works out but I'm expecting a similiar, perhaps little less mana regained from it. They had to shorten the duration when they made it undispellable, it would've been ridiculously OP in PvP.
#7492SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
One thing I would be interested to see is if this new FT debuff will have an impact on PVE. Admittedly, I don't do much high end raiding, but if the MS effect also works on NPCs then it might be viable in that situation as well. This would reduce our overall output in dps, but wouldn't this fill our main role of "enhancing" the rest of the raid in specific fights? Throwing a 1.5 speed OH with flametongue into the defaults of Yo!'s sim reduces overall DPS by about 50.
#7493SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
There aren't many fights that require a healing debuff though, and most that do can also be interrupted. Yah you can get 5 seconds of reduced healing on Najentus, maybe some lowered healing on Anetheron. That's about it for T6 content really.
#7494SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Yakout
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
JC offers a single 12 STR (vs 10 STR from a BCS) gem. 4 EP.
This is actually not true. There is, alas, no JC-only +Str gem (JC BoP gems); we must as usual settle for AP. However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades], which when stuck in the right yellow socket (e.g., [Insidious Bands]) can outperform a BCS, counts as a yellow stone for RED activation, and doesn't take a CS to cut.

2.4 shall also bring the [Choker of Endless Nightmares]-with-Stamina, [Hard Khorium Choker] (another fine candidate for socketing a SoB), as well as [Figurine - Shadowsong Panther] for those lower in progression or to whom the RNG has been particularly cruel in terms of trinket drops.

Last edited by Yakout : 02/28/08 at 1:04 PM.
#7495SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bruster
Has anyone done the path PvP wise for 2.4? That is if the changes last night will stay that way.

Would it be better to use a fast OH and FT now with the healing debuff? Or would it still be smarter to stay with the slow off hand with FT, plus if you're against dps team you could keep WF on the OH.
#7496SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
There's a pvp thread dedicated to that, direct your reading there.
#7497SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
Here's a quick link to the Enhancement PvP thread, it's linked to where the weapon speed and FT was mentioned with regards to the new patch...there's a lot of other little tid-bits on using a fast weapon and FT running around in many, many other locations.

[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ?

Conversation on weapon speeds looks to have started around post 366, no for sure answer yet. Looks like it will generally be up to personal prefference.
#7498SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
drats
Originally Posted by frozndevl
When you say "fix WS" what are you referring to? As far as I have seen it is still working as it has been.
Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.

@Seidule: When 2.4 hits I'm guessing JC/Leatherworking will be the best combination. Leatherworking for Drums and BOP gear, and JC for the SWP neck and epic BOP gems. Note: this is speculation until we've seen the full Sunwell loot table.

[e] Here's the JC neck I was talking about: Hard Khorium Choker - Items - World of Warcraft. There's also a nice haste ring, but I don't think it's better than the MH one: Hard Khorium Band - Items - World of Warcraft

Last edited by drats : 02/28/08 at 2:51 PM.
#7499SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
First: THANK YOU Hedin! <3 for the combat log help in the mod.

Second: The two different events - WF Mainhand Proc and WF Offhand Proc have separate event IDs in the combatlog. Now it will be a lot easier if people want to track stuff like that. (Note, I can't confirm what I just wrote, but so far event 33750 is always an offhand WF proc, and event 25504 is always a mainhand windfury. So, statistically that looks like a good bet so far).

I'm having a lot of fun with the new combat log stuff. Hedin Rocks.
#7500SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Yakout
However, that's not the only perk we have from JC pre-2.4; we also have [Stone of Blades]
Which is 1 EP better than Inscribed Pyrestone (20.8 EP vs. 19.7 EP).

Along with the +24 AP vs the BCS, which with kings is 22 AP (benefit 2 AP), total endgame benefit of JC gems: 3 EP

With the T6 EP values, [Hard Khorium Choker] is 26 EP better than [Clutch of Demise], both are better than [Choker of Endless Nightmares]. So JC is worth about 29 EP in the very top of the endgame; still be better off with LW/Enchanting.

However, at the not-quite-the-endgame, it could be pretty valuable -- the Hard Khorium neck is 55 EP better than the best neck in Black Temple.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/28/08 at 3:13 PM.
#7501SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Lujaar
I'm not sure how I feel about the SR change. On a fight where you're in no danger of getting forced out of melee it's a nerf. It's 15 fewer seconds of free mana and it makes your returns more random. A very good result will be wasted - you'll be topped off and unable to spend mana fast enough - but a very bad result will suck just as much as ever. On the other hand, if you sync your SR with Bloodlust Brooch/Zerker's Call you'll get better results now - 100% trinket uptime unstead of 66% - and it'll be easier to get a full SR off on add fights or bosses that force you out of melee. It's easier to find a 15-second window than a 30-second one.

EDIT: Shamanistic Rage seems to still be returning 15% AP right now, not the 30% listed in the tooltip. Hopefully this isn't intended.

Last edited by Lujaar : 02/28/08 at 4:14 PM.
#7502SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Vernichter
Seidule, this post from earlier in the thread gives an approximate break-down of the newly introduced Sunwell gear. Note that it was made before the updates to the T6 wrists, boots, and belt. I don't see any way for enchanting to beat out leatherworking in terms of end-game return. [Carapace of Sun and Shadow] is very close to best in slot, and [Gloves of Immortal Dusk] are by far the best in slot. Add the benefit of drums and leatherworking should be a clear best profession for the Sunwell.
The gloves are BoE so whether you're a leatherworker or not is a bit of a non-issue. That plus the BP not being the best (tho damned close) maintains the argument of not getting a significant benefit for being a leatherworker other than the drums.
#7503SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Malan
There aren't many fights that require a healing debuff though, and most that do can also be interrupted. Yah you can get 5 seconds of reduced healing on Najentus, maybe some lowered healing on Anetheron. That's about it for T6 content really.
Not to nitpick, but the most important one is probably Illidan :P.

About Shamanistic Rage, mine is also still only returning 15% rather than 30%. I'm assuming its a bug.
#7504SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
From a PvE perspective, I actually wish they would have given the MS effect to ROCKBITER. I mean, FT has viabilty, and is still used... Who uses Rockbiter anymore?

Though, Ele Shaman will use FT as it stands on PTR, no brainer... But I think it would have been interesting to give Rockbiter some viabilty... There's also the resist factor with FT to consider, though that's marginal imo.
#7505SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Alright, I have a question that has been bothering me since Executioner enchant came out with 2.3.

When I looking to be recruited by a new guild, both of their enhance shamans stated that dual Mongoose is inferior now, compared to Ex/Mon. Is there claim unfounded?

I am very curious as to where they are getting their information.

Thanks.
#7506SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
Alright, I have a question that has been bothering me since Executioner enchant came out with 2.3.

When I looking to be recruited by a new guild, both of their enhance shamans stated that dual Mongoose is inferior now, compared to Ex/Mon. Is there claim unfounded?

I am very curious as to where they are getting their information.

Thanks.
Repeated models based on my profile (clicky to the left) show a 10 dps improvement with executioner in the offhand versus Mongoose. Just sayin'.
#7507SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Has anybody on the PTR yet tried to macro the individual totem recall when twisting? Interested in the mana savings numbers.

Does anybody who twists on the PTR see an increase in shock damage? With 1s totem drops, a WFT/GoA/Shock/SS/Shock rotation may be possible.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 02/28/08 at 5:58 PM.
#7508SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
When I looking to be recruited by a new guild, both of their enhance shamans stated that dual Mongoose is inferior now, compared to Ex/Mon. Is there claim unfounded?
No. It's just oversimplified. Exec/Mongoose CAN be better than Mongoose/Mongoose, if you've got the gear to make Executioner worth while (that is to say, a good deal of armor pen & AP and a high enough crit rating that an extra 4.8% crit now and then isn't a big deal). Your raid debuffs are important, too...if you're not getting CoR, Faerie Fire and a full stack of sunders, Exec won't be as good.

For most shaman not at T6, Mongoose/Mongoose is slightly better.

I have Exec/Mongoose; I picked it up the first week ZA was out. It was expensive and I won't be replacing it -- Mongoose/Mongoose isn't that much better (I sim about a 3 dps difference). When I upgrade Dragonmaw (which will be tonight if the Vortexes drop), I will be putting Mongoose on it.
#7509SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
This is interesting as i was just about to make a post about this.

I've noticed recently that with Double Mongoose Procs, Flurry, and a rogue popping Drums of Battle, or me using Bloodlust my weapon speed drops perilously close to 1.5.

If i use BL whilst the drums are up it goes below 1.5 So atm i am waiting for the drums to run out before using BL. I never use my Haste pots anymore, and am wondering whether to either get Executioner enchanted in the offhand, even though i don't have all that much armour penetration, and whether to use Insane Strengths instead of Haste Pots, as like i said i'm very close to dropping below 1.5 weapon speed in my offhand (Not a prob for Main as it's Syphon with 2.8 speed)
#7510SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Again, even if a plateau at 1.5s wasn't a myth (which it is), you won't spend enough time there to notice.

As a troll with Dragonmaw, the Abacus, haste pots, drums, etc etc, I can get my weapon speed down to 1s or faster. End result? Lots of DPS.
#7511SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
I must've misunderstood then.

I was under the impression that reducing your weapon speed past 1.5 resulted in a net loss of dps
#7512SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Weem
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Has anybody on the PTR yet tried to macro the individual totem recall when twisting? Interested in the mana savings numbers.

Does anybody who twists on the PTR see an increase in shock damage? With 1s totem drops, a WFT/GoA/Shock/SS/Shock rotation may be possible.
I have it built into my twisting macro. I can't say I've noticed the extra mana (our pallies have been pretty good with JoW) or an increase in shock damage. I'll try and pay attention tonight.
#7513SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Aksing
I must've misunderstood then.

I was under the impression that reducing your weapon speed past 1.5 resulted in a net loss of dps
There is a very small range where your dps will theoretically drop. Even if you go out of your way to hit that range, it's very hard to spend a nontrivial amount of time in it, so it hasn't been proven that the dps drop actually exists. It's really not worth worrying about.
#7514SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by drats
Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.
Uh, that's probably your spirit regen kicking in.
#7515SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by drats
Right now you can spam WS and gain more than 50mp5 from it, due to the fact that it gives mana back right when it's cast. I suspect this is not 'working as intended' and will be fixed at some point in the future.
I remember this being tested in the resto topic and proven false.

Test was like this: empty mana bar and measure time needed to regen to full with just WS casted once. Then do the same with spamming WS. Both scenarios needed the same time to get the mana bar filled again.
#7516SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kween
"Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:

* Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
* Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
* Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
* Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage"


I am concerned about the fire totems. They are used to help overall damage but does it count as the actual Shaman dps? Or is it just another damaging agent? I guess I never really built up my fire totems..I think searing totem does what? 40 damage capped? Always seemed a bit weak to me. Any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and very nice work everyone who was involved in this. Helps me bunches.
#7517SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
goddi23a
Well, It depends on the tool you use to measure the dps if fire Totems are added to your dps.

But they do some nice dmg, even if you havent spec them through elemental talents.


Some wws Data, MH Azalgor trash waves:
Ability	             Hits  	Avg
Magma Totem          1158       133
Searing  	     210	169
Fire Nova 	     353	767

Don't forget the spelldmg you gain through MentalQ. !
( And with S.Rage you should have enough mana to set an Nova Totem on nearly every CD. )



P.S.Edit:
But what else can you do with the fire totem slot; FT is useless if WF totem is up ( witch is in most cases ) and FrostR. only make sense in a few encounters.

Last edited by goddi23a : 02/29/08 at 3:24 AM.
#7518SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kween
Ah looks pretty good. Yeah I will usually drop down Magma but Fire Nova is way expensive and Searing..I dunno I may have to pick it up.

Thanks.
#7519SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
My searing totem does about 50-75 DPS depending on actual attackpower. So its another 5% DPS which is easy to get. If you are using Recount as damagemeter, your totems won't show up because it's not save tracking them with the current combatlog. The author tries to get it to work with 2.4 when the new combatlog allows better tracking.
#7520SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ragzhi
Originally Posted by Kween
"Enhacement Shaman have four sources of damage:

* Windfury, a weapon imbue that gives the shaman a 20% proc of two instant attacks with a substantial AP bonus
* Stormstrike, a 10s cooldown instant attack with both weapons
* Elemental Shocks, shared cooldown instant elemental damage offering stealth prevention, snaring or interruption
* Fire Totems, pulsed direct or AoE fire damage"


I am concerned about the fire totems. They are used to help overall damage but does it count as the actual Shaman dps? Or is it just another damaging agent? I guess I never really built up my fire totems..I think searing totem does what? 40 damage capped? Always seemed a bit weak to me. Any help is greatly appreciated. Oh and very nice work everyone who was involved in this. Helps me bunches.
Well, it depends on who you ask, if you just look at the damage meters, it wont say that it's you're damage since it can't seperate your totem from any other shaman's totem. But if you hadn't been there dropping that totem, there wouldn't be some 40 dps on the boss for almost no effort.

So no, it wont show (unless someone know that you're the only one using searing totem & merging it to you on WWS) but it's still you're damage.

[E] Beaten.
#7521SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grekk
This is interesting as i was just about to make a post about this.

I've noticed recently that with Double Mongoose Procs, Flurry, and a rogue popping Drums of Battle, or me using Bloodlust my weapon speed drops perilously close to 1.5.

If i use BL whilst the drums are up it goes below 1.5 So atm i am waiting for the drums to run out before using BL. I never use my Haste pots anymore, and am wondering whether to either get Executioner enchanted in the offhand, even though i don't have all that much armour penetration, and whether to use Insane Strengths instead of Haste Pots, as like i said i'm very close to dropping below 1.5 weapon speed in my offhand (Not a prob for Main as it's Syphon with 2.8 speed)
I think there is some misunderstanding here.
Haste potions will ALWAYS increase you dps, and they will do even more so when you are on BL, as will drums.

Again, even if a plateau at 1.5s wasn't a myth (which it is), you won't spend enough time there to notice.
this is EJ, it's not really important if you NOTICE an increase, just whether it is there.

To build my post around drums and haste potions probably wasn't a good idea, so i will try a different approach.


Image you were to face Brutallus (6 minute fight) and you had to choose which bracers to wear.
Now imagine without bracers you had enough passive haste (around 15% i think) that your Mainhand will be just above 1.5 under the following conditions:

- you have Flurry
- you have BL/Hero up

Now let us assume I were to choose between the following two items:
[Master Assassin Wristwraps]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]

using my stat weights: Loot Rank

leads me to the conclusion, that [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes] should be better by 5.24 AEP

In my last post I calculated that I would loose 22 dps for the duration of time, that I spend below 1.5.
Now let's see what happens if I choose [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes].

- I gain 142.25 AEP which should be around 49.7 DPS for the whole duration of the fight
- I loose 22 dps for 40s/360s = 11% of the fight which equals a loss of 2.44 DPS over the whole fight

We see that considering the loss we actually only gain 47.26 DPS which is 135.33 AEP which is LESS than we gain from
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (137.01 AEP).
#7522SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tristan
Originally Posted by Mindrila
Neck
+48 Stamina
+22 Hitrating
+21 weapon expertise

The Enhancer value is just the hitrating (22*1.65=36.3)

So Enhancer is bugged and has to be fixed for correct evaluation of weapon expertise.
Enhancer has no logic to get get bonuses from items in it, instead it uses ItemBonusLib (on of the many ace libraries) for that. Possibly it doesn't capture the expertise if you're using a locale other then enUS or you have no value assigned to expertise? Either way I can't reproduce the error, both Enhancer and EquivalencePoints pick up the expertise for me:

(Ignore the gem just chugged an old gem I had lying around untill I get a resil gem)
#7523SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Mindrila
Yes I'm using deDE as locale.

Thanks for the hint, I'll go check the ItemBonusLib.

Edit:
Ok I've changed my ItemBonusLib so that weapon expertise is properly recognized for deDE. Now it works fine. Thank you.

Last edited by Mindrila : 02/29/08 at 7:42 AM.
#7524SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Originally Posted by Grekk
We see that considering the loss we actually only gain 47.26 DPS which is 135.33 AEP which is LESS than we gain from
[Master Assassin Wristwraps] (137.01 AEP).
So, essentially what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about dropping below 1.5 if it is via the useage of Haste Pots, BL, drums, or mongoose procs, but that i shouldn't take haste gear (which i don't anyway).

I ran Yo!'s sim for 5000 hours with my stats and with my gear the EP values came back as haste being worth 1.96 and hit and crit at 1.97 with ofc strength at 2.2 and expertise being 3.53 or something.

I know what i'm aiming for in Sunwell, and the new T6 pieces do have some haste rating on them. According to Yo!'s the haste rating is worth alot of EP atm, but as you just mentioned actually some pieces with haste can result in a loss of dps. So should a trade off be made? If i get the T6 pieces with haste on for example, should i lose some haste elsewhere by saying for example losing a mongoose for an executioner, to minimise the time spent at under 1.5 speed?
#7525SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Weem
I have it built into my twisting macro. I can't say I've noticed the extra mana (our pallies have been pretty good with JoW) or an increase in shock damage. I'll try and pay attention tonight.
Is anybody willing to share their Enh macros with the group?

I use a basic twisting/stormstrike cycle macro for my main button smash, a totem cycle macro to drop earth/fire/water, and a shock cycle macro to go between ES and FS. I'd like to know if anyone has something more advanced that:

- Uses drums when they are up
- Uses Haste pot when it is up
- Makes twisting more efficient than just cycling WF,GoA,SS.

Thanks!
#7526SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Aksing
to minimise the time spent at under 1.5 speed?
How many posts does it take of people saying stop worrying about the haste effect before you start reading them?
#7527SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Aksing
So, essentially what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about dropping below 1.5 if it is via the useage of Haste Pots, BL, drums, or mongoose procs, but that i shouldn't take haste gear (which i don't anyway).
No, what we're all saying -- what we've ALWAYS been saying -- is use the simulator, know your EP values and gear accordingly. The simulator will test your hast pots, BL, drums, mongoose, Troll berzerking, Dragonstrike, passive haste, etc etc, and give passive hast a value based on how much additional DPS it brings to the table.

You shouldn't worry about 1.5s because it MEANS NOTHING. And if it did mean something, the simulator would discover it and adjust your EP accordingly. Trust the simulator, it's a decent analyst and good at math.
#7528SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
Quoted from the 1st post just in case...

It is no longer believed that the 1.5 to 1.4 hasted speed will actually cause any decrease in DPS - you should notice an overall increase.

---

That being said, since it's been noted that so many of the new items from the 2.4 patch will give Expertise, does it have a point at which it stops being useful? I would assume since Expertise and hit rating impact dodge reduction...if I'm following this right...that it would stop being useful right around the same point as +hit? Unless I'm constantly standing in front of the Mob during a raid of course.

I'm sorry, but of all the sections in the 1st post, the Expertise section is the most confusing. If someone has another way to explain it then that would be helpful. It might just be a lack of exposure on my end. I did research on other forums and WoWWiki and such, and came up with Expertise of 103 from the non Human or Orc non talented listing on the Roguecraft 101 thread...not rating, just Expertise.

This is from the roguecraft 101 thread...
The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.


What sort of cap would we aim not to overshoot as Shamans? If this was mentioned in the last 302 pages then I missed it. At a certain point that stat can't be weighed as high as it starts out, right?...

Sorry for the confusion...
#7529SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Gehenna
roguecraft

Like you say, roguecraft says not to get more than 103.

That should make a boss encounter unable to dodge you.

So i would say get 103...

Last edited by Gehenna : 02/29/08 at 4:13 PM.
#7530SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
It stops being useful at the point where you cap your anti-dodge, ~5-6% against a boss.
(Was that really so hard to figure out?)
#7531SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
Thank you. I wanted to make sure the 103 or 5-6% usefullness limit posted there applied to us as well. Should that be included in the main post since it will become more of a concern with this patch?
#7532SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
If I'm not mistaken, 5.6% is the max dodge of l73 mobs. Because expertise is calculated in .25% chunks, after 5.75% dodge reduction you'll see NO benefit from expertise. 5.75% * (.25% dodge reduction/Experise) = 23 Expertise * (3.96 ER / Expertise) = 91 Expertise Rating.

Where the heck did they get 103? That would be a dodge of 6.5%. One of us is dyslexic (probably me).

In PvP, maybe stacking more will help against evading rogues and prot warriors. But not as much as good ole' AP, I imagine.
#7533SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Experiment
....they say 6.5%

Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103



WoWWiki states 5.6% according to the below...

A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed.



I'm going to go with the 5.6, and they're Dyslexic, not you.
#7534SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Experiment
I'm going to go with the 5.6, and they're Dyslexic, not you.
I've always thought that about rogues.

However, don't put too much trust in Wowwiki -- they claim you need 23 Expertise, that it's 3.94 ER per Expertise, and 89.7 ER to attain it. 23*3.94 is 90.62, not 89.7.
#7535SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hedin
Made the addon that changes your weapons 1.5 seconds before SS CD ends to 2hand and when SS CD starts - back to DW. Going to try it today in raid - wish me luck :-)
#7536SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
... what? Why in the hell would you do that? DW provides more SS damage. Go read the Enhancement pvp thread.
Its also going to reset your swing timer twice.
#7537SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hedin
Originally Posted by Malan
... what? Why in the hell would you do that? DW provides more SS damage. Go read the Enhancement pvp thread.
Its also going to reset your swing timer twice.
Yep, not as good as in PvP but if you change only totems you will be getting stronger WFs from SS with [Totem of the Astral Winds] and some AP from shocks with [Stonebreaker's Totem] and will not get reset of swing timer...
BTW it will force you not to Shock befor 1.5 of SS CD end...
#7538SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Hedin
Yep, not as good as in PvP but if you change only totems you will be getting stronger WFs from SS with [Totem of the Astral Winds] and some AP from shocks with [Stonebreaker's Totem] and will not get reset of swing timer...
BTW it will force you not to Shock befor 1.5 of SS CD end...
So you reset your swing timer and lose out on at least 2 white hits and reset your swing timer each time you equip a different totem all for the sake of a chance at bigger numbers?
#7539SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hedin
Originally Posted by rava
So you reset your swing timer and lose out on at least 2 white hits and reset your swing timer each time you equip a different totem all for the sake of a chance at bigger numbers?
Why should you get reset of swing timer if you don't change weapons? As far as I see changing totems don't reset it or am I wrong?
#7540SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Hedin
Why should you get reset of swing timer if you don't change weapons? As far as I see changing totems don't reset it or am I wrong?
Changing the item equipped in your ranged weapon slot counts as changing a weapon, which is why you can do it at all.
#7541SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Hedin
Yep, not as good as in PvP but if you change only totems you will be getting stronger WFs from SS with [Totem of the Astral Winds] and some AP from shocks with [Stonebreaker's Totem] and will not get reset of swing timer...
BTW it will force you not to Shock befor 1.5 of SS CD end...
But you didn't say that you were changing totems, you said you were changing from DW to 2H, which is what I said was silly.
#7542SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3drats
[e] Beaten
#7543SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hedin
/cry
Totem relics do reset swing timer... I was so close :-(
#7544SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
I hate being super lazy... but I'm not well versed in the losses these other classes would endure in the following situation.

Let's say you're a raid leader and are interested in keeping a 50% healing debuff on that tricky demon, Anetheron.

As near as I can tell, a generic raid leader has 4 choices:
warrior using mortal strike
rogue using wound poison
hunter using aimed shot
shaman using flame tongue

Which of these when tasked with keeping the healing debuff active, reduces the overall raid damage the least?

Some assumptions to make:
1. Each one is in an optimized group for them to otherwise do maximum dps.
2. None of them suck, die often, have crappy gear. They're all perfect raiders, top of the line choices.

My gut feeling is that the hunter applying the debuff will have the least impact to the raid

choices you can't use...
some resto shaman drops flametongue totem + flametongue weapon and that shaman+ 3 other healers in the group allow random auto-attacks to apply the debuff.
The shaman in the tank group drops flametongue and the tank keeps the debuff up all the time. ( to me this is the obvious choice to take, but that's not a very challenging task for you folks to theorize about).
#7545SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Kalince
Given I am not an expert on warrior pve mechanics but I would think MS is never not on cooldown for them to do their best damage. How is it any choice but the MS warrior?
#7546SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Chicken
I'd say that's very simple logic you can apply there.

If you have a Warrior with MS, that's the first choice. Using Mortal Strike is part of their standard DPS cycle, so there's no oppurtunity cost for them to keep it up.
Second option would be a rogue using wound poison instead of deadly poison.
Third option would probably be an enhancement shaman off-handing Flametongue.
Fourth option would be aimed shot; I'm pretty sure using Aimed Shot with any regularity absolutely kills hunter DPS.

Also remember that Windfury would still be a better threat option for a Warrior Tank, so if you have a fight where one really needs all the threat he can get and a mob heals, it might not always be the best choice. Such problems don't exist for Feral Druids (Because they don't benefit from weapon enchants) or Prot Paladins (Because they get a better threat upgrade from Wrath of Air).
#7547SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
For the warrior, I had assumed it was a fury warrior who is forced to run as Arms to provide the debuff. Doesn't a T6 fury warrior outperform arms by some margin?
#7548SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Rapparee
the shaman in the tank group drops flametongue and the tank keeps the debuff up all the time. ( to me this is the obvious choice to take, but that's not a very challenging task for you folks to theorize about).
Best choice if you want the debuff applied with zero effort. Some tanks actually prefer the use of GoA, I know that our MT has never had a issue with threat without WF. But this isn't a option if you happen to have a DPS warrior, or spare rogue in the MT group (Having a DPS warrior in MT group happens alot in my experience).
#7549SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Rapparee
For the warrior, I had assumed it was a fury warrior who is forced to run as Arms to provide the debuff. Doesn't a T6 fury warrior outperform arms by some margin?
While a tier 6 Fury Warrior does outdamage an Arms warrior, it's commonly accepted that the extra damage for the rest of the raid provided by Blood Frenzy equals or comes close to equaling the difference between the two.
#7550SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Paradox
So i've got offset peices and I have 4 peice T6, Helm/Shoulder/Glove/Legs. Offset is Forest Prowler, Bow-Stitched, Hidden-Predator, and Grips of Damnation.

I put the numbers in the sim, ran it for 20,000 hours with offset peices and I got a DPS of 1384, I swapped my gear over and changed all the stats, accounting for gems and added the 4-peice T6 bonus on in the sim, ran that for 20,000 hours and I got a DPS of 1437 which I was very suprised by, as, using my EP weights gained from the sim, every peice of non-set gear beats the T6. Buffs page was left as default and trinkets are Bloodlust Brooch / Ashtongue. Wait 3 sec to SS (another thing here, does this take into consideration the T6 4-peice?)

Could the T6 4-peice be pushing the DPS up that high? Should I actually ignore my EP weights and just go with the T6?

I re-ran the sim multiple times and the DPS didn't fluctuate at all, not a single point up or down.
Also tried changing the time down to 500 hours and so on, similar results not much fluctuation.l

Very confused!

Last edited by Paradox : 02/29/08 at 8:03 PM.
#7551SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Quick question:

Does anyone run a macro for their shock rotation? If so, how do you have it configured?

Thanks.
#7552SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Killme888
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
If I'm not mistaken, 5.6% is the max dodge of l73 mobs. Because expertise is calculated in .25% chunks, after 5.75% dodge reduction you'll see NO benefit from expertise. 5.75% * (.25% dodge reduction/Experise) = 23 Expertise * (3.96 ER / Expertise) = 91 Expertise Rating.

Where the heck did they get 103? That would be a dodge of 6.5%. One of us is dyslexic (probably me).

In PvP, maybe stacking more will help against evading rogues and prot warriors. But not as much as good ole' AP, I imagine.
Pretty sure they think it's 9% dodge vs 73 mobs, that's 36 expertise required to hit 0, but rogues have 10 expertise through talent, so 26.

26 * 3.94 = 102.44 aka 103.

So we just need to find out if it's 9% dodge or 5.6%. I can see why it could be 9% though, pre-BC miss rate vs 73 using 2H was also 5.6%, but it's been changed and now it's 9%.
#7553SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Paradox
So i've got offset peices and I have 4 peice T6, Helm/Shoulder/Glove/Legs. Offset is Forest Prowler, Bow-Stitched, Hidden-Predator, and Grips of Damnation.

I put the numbers in the sim, ran it for 20,000 hours with offset peices and I got a DPS of 1384, I swapped my gear over and changed all the stats, accounting for gems and added the 4-peice T6 bonus on in the sim, ran that for 20,000 hours and I got a DPS of 1437 which I was very suprised by, as, using my EP weights gained from the sim, every peice of non-set gear beats the T6. Buffs page was left as default and trinkets are Bloodlust Brooch / Ashtongue. Wait 3 sec to SS (another thing here, does this take into consideration the T6 4-peice?)

Could the T6 4-peice be pushing the DPS up that high? Should I actually ignore my EP weights and just go with the T6?

I re-ran the sim multiple times and the DPS didn't fluctuate at all, not a single point up or down.
Also tried changing the time down to 500 hours and so on, similar results not much fluctuation.l

Very confused!
Have you tried the T6 in a raid and checked the difference from earlier raids? I mean a DPS difference of 53 is quite a lot and this could be the simulator calculating the 4p bonus in a wierd way? I just dont see how a 70AP bonus can boost your DPS by 53 by itself.
#7554SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Paradox
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
Have you tried the T6 in a raid and checked the difference from earlier raids? I mean a DPS difference of 53 is quite a lot and this could be the simulator calculating the 4p bonus in a wierd way? I just dont see how a 70AP bonus can boost your DPS by 53 by itself.
I havn't tried it in a raid yet but I don't exactly keep track of my exact DPS on each boss, and even then it can vary quite a lot week to week.

Edit: Was also wondering how long a Fire Elemental is useful for until it's DPS is less than that of a searing totem? Anyone have an amount of time until it's mana gets fully drained or anything? Is it even better to drop if you have the CD up than a searing?

Last edited by Paradox : 03/01/08 at 11:34 AM.
#7555SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vindicated
Shard of Contempt EP Value

Just wanted to quickly check this. Would this be correct - just wondering for my personal use.
Shard of Contempt 206.28 EP = ( (44 * ExpertiseRating) + ( 230 * 20 * 0.9 / 60) )

Assuming ExpertiseRating = 3.12 (Tier 6 Value) and .9PPM
#7556SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yasuhiko
12:45 AM math has never been my specialty.....
I was going to say something, but after looking over my math, I somehow found out I was wrong, but don't quite believe myself.

I'm going to go back to theorizing on FT in arenas (which I believe is not as weak in PvP gear as it is in PvE gear becuase WF is more stat-scalar. Yeah, forget his post is here, carry on gents.)
#7557SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Hawkawkarl
There used to be a section in the opening post the gave some target numbers for what a shaman should have to start raiding 25mans. I think it was 1200ap and some number of crit. Has there been any discussion on what a shaman should have by the time they move to the next tier of rairdng.

ie You should have 1400ap/27% crit before walking TK/SSC and 1550ap/29% crit when walking into BT/MtH? Those numbers are abritrary but the concept is, what numbers should you have after rolling on the expected gear from a given tier of raiding.

Any thoughts to bring that back and expand on it?

edit: grammer/spelling

Last edited by Hawkawkarl : 03/04/08 at 2:41 PM.
#7558SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Paradox
Edit: Was also wondering how long a Fire Elemental is useful for until it's DPS is less than that of a searing totem? Anyone have an amount of time until it's mana gets fully drained or anything? Is it even better to drop if you have the CD up than a searing?
Pretty sure this point doesn't exist. Fire elementals seem to have a passive AoE Fire Shield that even against one target does more damage than a Searing Totem. Either that or it's an autoattack that he has that registers as a fire shield on my screen for some reason. Either way, its non-mana-based damage is greater than that of a Searing Totem, and they regen mana fairly quickly while they're just hitting passively.
#7559SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Some time ago we was talking stormstrike mechanich and how unique it is. There was some theory that SS is three phase spell. I was playing with my org gear([The Bladefist] + [Bulwark of Azzinoth]) and used SS to critter. Result was very odd there was single SS hit + 3 * flametongue totem proc. I tested also SS with DW and there was three procs too. Then I invited retri paladin and warrior to my group and we tested and tested. Whirlwind only procced one time. Seal of command procced it twice but there was little messy combat log results. Would it been that only SS is buggin with flametongue totem or is there big problem coming when 2.4 arrive and flame tongue totem got also ms effect. If anyone have spare time can you redo my SS test or explain me why SS is so bugged with this totem and other isntants arent.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 03/01/08 at 1:10 PM.
#7560SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Paradox
So i've got offset peices and I have 4 peice T6, Helm/Shoulder/Glove/Legs. Offset is Forest Prowler, Bow-Stitched, Hidden-Predator, and Grips of Damnation.

I put the numbers in the sim, ran it for 20,000 hours with offset peices and I got a DPS of 1384, I swapped my gear over and changed all the stats, accounting for gems and added the 4-peice T6 bonus on in the sim, ran that for 20,000 hours and I got a DPS of 1437 which I was very suprised by, as, using my EP weights gained from the sim, every peice of non-set gear beats the T6. Buffs page was left as default and trinkets are Bloodlust Brooch / Ashtongue. Wait 3 sec to SS (another thing here, does this take into consideration the T6 4-peice?)

Could the T6 4-peice be pushing the DPS up that high? Should I actually ignore my EP weights and just go with the T6?

I re-ran the sim multiple times and the DPS didn't fluctuate at all, not a single point up or down.
Also tried changing the time down to 500 hours and so on, similar results not much fluctuation.l

Very confused!
Ok, in an effort to get to the bottom of this I started doing it allover again and checking things, DPS with offset turned out the same, then I did the T6 again and I got a DPS of 1382 (2-3 dps less than offset). I guess it was some kind of bug I had yesterday showing it giving about 50 more DPS with T6? Still.. makes me consider wearing T6 since it looks much nicer, for a 2-3 dps loss..

Originally Posted by Rhaegal
Pretty sure this point doesn't exist. Fire elementals seem to have a passive AoE Fire Shield that even against one target does more damage than a Searing Totem. Either that or it's an autoattack that he has that registers as a fire shield on my screen for some reason. Either way, its non-mana-based damage is greater than that of a Searing Totem, and they regen mana fairly quickly while they're just hitting passively.
Thanks!
#7561SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Some time ago we was talking stormstrike mechanich and how unique it is. There was some theory that SS is three phase spell. I was playing with my org gear([The Bladefist] + [Bulwark of Azzinoth]) and used SS to critter. Result was very odd there was single SS hit + 3 * flametongue totem proc. I tested also SS with DW and there was three procs too. Then I invited retri paladin and warrior to my group and we tested and tested. Whirlwind only procced one time. Seal of command procced it twice but there was little messy combat log results. Would it been that only SS is buggin with flametongue totem or is there big problem coming when 2.4 arrive and flame tongue totem got also ms effect. If anyone have spare time can you redo my SS test or explain me why SS is so bugged with this totem and other isntants arent.
Is this on live? Just (right now) tested it on PTR and got this:

Stormstrike with FT Totem

MH SS
FT Proc - From totem
OH SS
FT Proc - From totem

[e] Confirmed 3 procs if you use FT totem + FT wep buff on OH.

FT Totem + FT buff

MH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
OH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
FT Proc (from OH buff) - 176 dmg

I guess the real (bug?) question here is why does the OH hit from stormstrike proc a MH wep imbue.

[e2] Just been playing around with different combos like FT totem + OH WF and stuff like that, and was able to get:

MH SS
FT Proc - from totem
OH SS
FT Proc - from totem
FT Proc - from totem

Using FT totem + OH WF. So yeah I'd say thats pretty conclusion that its very bugged!

FT and WF

It must be crazily bugged because the FT totem procs do not apply the healing debuff at all currently, even when they proc from a normal attack.

Last edited by Mox : 03/01/08 at 1:54 PM. Reason: Updating information
#7562SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Beowolf
Originally Posted by Mox
Is this on live? Just (right now) tested it on PTR and got this:

Stormstrike with FT Totem

MH SS
FT Proc - From totem
OH SS
FT Proc - From totem

[e] Confirmed 3 procs if you use FT totem + FT wep buff on OH.

FT Totem + FT buff

MH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
OH SS
FT Proc (from totem) - 43 dmg
FT Proc (from OH buff) - 176 dmg

I guess the real (bug?) question here is why does the OH hit from stormstrike proc a MH wep imbue.

[e2] Just been playing around with different combos like FT totem + OH WF and stuff like that, and was able to get:

MH SS
FT Proc - from totem
OH SS
FT Proc - from totem
FT Proc - from totem

Using FT totem + OH WF. So yeah I'd say thats pretty conclusion that its very bugged!

FT and WF

It must be crazily bugged because the FT totem procs do not apply the healing debuff at all currently, even when they proc from a normal attack.
It probably has to do with the fact that Stormstrike hit/miss/dodge/parry calculation affects the offhand as well. When you use SS and it misses, is dodged or parried, you wont get the second hit of the special. So essentially in this case, the FT Totem enchanting your MH gives your OH SS attack the enchant as well.
#7563SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dahri
I had a question regarding Yo's simulator. It currently doesn't work on OS X as far as I can tell. I had to reboot into Vista in order to use it.

This led me to wonder if the source code to the simulator has been made available at all. If so, I would be interested in writing a port of the simulator (as a native application on OS X).

While I could start from scratch when building a new simulator, I'd rather build on work that has already been done, so that I don't fall into any mathematical traps when coding my own.
#7564SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Its java, there is nothing to "port" as it is a multiplatform language. The problem is that OS X Leopard is not compatible with Java 6 yet.
#7565SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dahri
Originally Posted by Malan
Its java, there is nothing to "port" as it is a multiplatform language. The problem is that OS X Leopard is not compatible with Java 6 yet.
I'm aware of that. The lack of Java 6 on Leopard is why I was interested in coding a simulator in Objective-C. If Java 6 is going to be available soon, though, maybe it doesn't matter.
#7566SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Originally Posted by Dahri
I'm aware of that. The lack of Java 6 on Leopard is why I was interested in coding a simulator in Objective-C. If Java 6 is going to be available soon, though, maybe it doesn't matter.
Java 6 will come "eventually" but who knows when?

In the meantime, it would probably be much more efficient to modify the Java to run in 10.5.
#7567SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Ok, I know we're not supposed to do this, and normally I never would, but I'm just totally baffled at this point. I've followed this thread religiously to help me pick gear and determine what I do in my raid. However, I've been really doubting myself lately.

We don't always do this, but several times our raid will run 2 enhancement shamans. We couldn't be more different. I love the guy, but he's an "old school" shaman. He believes in wearing all mail and going for the set pieces. I'm totally down with that. Still, I'm picking leather DPS gear, using disqo dice, enhancer, etc. and he's still beating me on DPS in raids. What makes it worse? He's in the tank group getting at most a druid and a hunter buff and I'm in the melee group getting hunter, warrior, retadin, druid, etc. buffs. Hell, I think he constantly runs with Insane Stength potion instead of Relentless Flask.

There's a lot different between us. . .gear, group buffs, I'm twisting and he's not, etc. but I still don't see how I'm lower than him. I'm working my ass off and he's still out-dpsing me. It's seriously mind boggling. I don't know whether it's because other people in the raid aren't applying certain buffs, or what, but I should be at least a few hundred DPS over this guy, right? Hell, I'm even using Drums, Haste Pots, everything under the sun and it ain't helping. I've worked at spreading my stats out except for armor pen which I've tried to stack.

Anyway, this link will take you to our raid's WWS reports. We had some pretty messed up attempts with tanks dying and whatnot and we were short healers, but you can look at other dates to see other raids and whatnot. Karshie is our other Enhance Shaman and the report I'm linking should be Teron/4 bosses from Hyjal, but feel free to look at them all. At this point I'm just plain lost and looking for some help. I've played out Yo's sim over and over and I'm still stumped.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give.

Wow Web Stats
#7568SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vingumminr9
Ive been wondering a bit about how many EP the 3% increased crit dmg from [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]
is worth at my state (5/6 ssc - 2/4 tk ..soon 3/4 :P) and just in general
got 1600ap & 32% crit unbuffed atm, 133 hit rating, and 329 Ignore armor,
#7569SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Imperator
Ok, I know we're not supposed to do this, and normally I never would, but I'm just totally baffled at this point. I've followed this thread religiously to help me pick gear and determine what I do in my raid. However, I've been really doubting myself lately.

We don't always do this, but several times our raid will run 2 enhancement shamans. We couldn't be more different. I love the guy, but he's an "old school" shaman. He believes in wearing all mail and going for the set pieces. I'm totally down with that. Still, I'm picking leather DPS gear, using disqo dice, enhancer, etc. and he's still beating me on DPS in raids. What makes it worse? He's in the tank group getting at most a druid and a hunter buff and I'm in the melee group getting hunter, warrior, retadin, druid, etc. buffs. Hell, I think he constantly runs with Insane Stength potion instead of Relentless Flask.

There's a lot different between us. . .gear, group buffs, I'm twisting and he's not, etc. but I still don't see how I'm lower than him. I'm working my ass off and he's still out-dpsing me. It's seriously mind boggling. I don't know whether it's because other people in the raid aren't applying certain buffs, or what, but I should be at least a few hundred DPS over this guy, right? Hell, I'm even using Drums, Haste Pots, everything under the sun and it ain't helping. I've worked at spreading my stats out except for armor pen which I've tried to stack.

Anyway, this link will take you to our raid's WWS reports. We had some pretty messed up attempts with tanks dying and whatnot and we were short healers, but you can look at other dates to see other raids and whatnot. Karshie is our other Enhance Shaman and the report I'm linking should be Teron/4 bosses from Hyjal, but feel free to look at them all. At this point I'm just plain lost and looking for some help. I've played out Yo's sim over and over and I'm still stumped.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give.

Wow Web Stats

I glanced over the WWS a bit and concluded that it's very hard to judge from that parse as in a lot of attempts either you or him died early or whatever else random. What I did notice that he had a better shock rotation than you, you have too much FS uptime compared to your ES. Don't you overwrite FS debuffs with eachother? I also noticed in your Anetheron kill that he had a lot more Rallying Cry - Spells - World of Warcraft gains than you. That could explain the difference.

Then I looked at the Armory. It's very likely that the reason he's doing more DPS than you is that he is using the 4 piece Cataclysm bonus. Don't take me on my word for it, but I'm pretty sure that'll make him do more DPS than you until you get further into the content. You're also sporting quite a lot of -Armor which at your point of progression isn't very hot yet.

Again, don't take my word for the above. I can't back it up with any math, but I seem to recall the 5% more haste on Flurry being a significant buff.
And don't forget. Shaman DPS can vary a lot.
#7570SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Illundai
I glanced over the WWS a bit and concluded that it's very hard to judge from that parse as in a lot of attempts either you or him died early or whatever else random. What I did notice that he had a better shock rotation than you, you have too much FS uptime compared to your ES. Don't you overwrite FS debuffs with eachother? I also noticed in your Anetheron kill that he had a lot more Rallying Cry - Spells - World of Warcraft gains than you. That could explain the difference.

Then I looked at the Armory. It's very likely that the reason he's doing more DPS than you is that he is using the 4 piece Cataclysm bonus. Don't take me on my word for it, but I'm pretty sure that'll make him do more DPS than you until you get further into the content. You're also sporting quite a lot of -Armor which at your point of progression isn't very hot yet.

Again, don't take my word for the above. I can't back it up with any math, but I seem to recall the 5% more haste on Flurry being a significant buff.
And don't forget. Shaman DPS can vary a lot.
Yeah, when I'm twisting I can't keep the normal FS/ES/FS roatation. So often times I just have to reapply FS.

These are all our WWS reports, maybe you can see something better from these. I do agree that the T5 4 pc set bonus is pretty wicked. Still don't know whether it should be keeping him that high on his DPS tho.


Wow Web Stats
#7571SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xiongmao
Originally Posted by Imperator
Ok, I know we're not supposed to do this, and normally I never would, but I'm just totally baffled at this point. I've followed this thread religiously to help me pick gear and determine what I do in my raid. However, I've been really doubting myself lately.

We don't always do this, but several times our raid will run 2 enhancement shamans. We couldn't be more different. I love the guy, but he's an "old school" shaman. He believes in wearing all mail and going for the set pieces. I'm totally down with that. Still, I'm picking leather DPS gear, using disqo dice, enhancer, etc. and he's still beating me on DPS in raids. What makes it worse? He's in the tank group getting at most a druid and a hunter buff and I'm in the melee group getting hunter, warrior, retadin, druid, etc. buffs. Hell, I think he constantly runs with Insane Stength potion instead of Relentless Flask.

There's a lot different between us. . .gear, group buffs, I'm twisting and he's not, etc. but I still don't see how I'm lower than him. I'm working my ass off and he's still out-dpsing me. It's seriously mind boggling. I don't know whether it's because other people in the raid aren't applying certain buffs, or what, but I should be at least a few hundred DPS over this guy, right? Hell, I'm even using Drums, Haste Pots, everything under the sun and it ain't helping. I've worked at spreading my stats out except for armor pen which I've tried to stack.

Anyway, this link will take you to our raid's WWS reports. We had some pretty messed up attempts with tanks dying and whatnot and we were short healers, but you can look at other dates to see other raids and whatnot. Karshie is our other Enhance Shaman and the report I'm linking should be Teron/4 bosses from Hyjal, but feel free to look at them all. At this point I'm just plain lost and looking for some help. I've played out Yo's sim over and over and I'm still stumped.

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give.

Wow Web Stats
Just going with the Teron WWS parse:

For group composition, both of you received battle shout, and LoTP. The retribution paladin gives both of you 3% more crit and gives you 2% more damage, which relative to other buffs is not that major. Not sure about hunter, but I do not see Ferocious Inspiration, and I am not sure if TSA would show up on buff/debuffs in WWS. Thus in that particular encounter you both had similar buffs.

For totem twisting, you will actually see a lower shocks/minute than Karshie. Not 100% sure if the extra crit gained for 90% of the time makes up for this. Totem twisting is primarily to increase your group's total dps.

Teron is a short enough fight that RNG factors come into play, for example I have had parses with 50% crit rate on white attacks and 25% crit rate on Stormstrike, or some ridiculous miss% on my specials. In your WWS, while both your hit is similar, he had 5% less missed white attacks and 1% less missed WF attacks.

While you did less damage than he did, your dps was actually higher than his. Looking at both your DPS times, you have a 75% dps time, and he has a 97% dps time. The way WWS works, if you were to anhk after finishing your ghosts your dps would actually drop quite a bit.

These are just some things to note if you are trying to compare your DPS with him via WWS. Enhancement shaman dps is not very stable from week to week, especially with the short duration of "good" parse fights in Hyjal/BT. If Yo's simulator shows that you should be doing 200 more dps than him (there is an option for 4 piece t5 by the way, make sure to select that) and you consistently perform on or below par with him, it might be a playstyle issue. Simple things like hitting all cooldowns as soon as they are up GCD allowing; aggressiveness, running back in a couple ticks before Death and Decay finishes to do more dps; attentiveness, hell after a long week, there's been times the boss has been shifted and it takes me 5+ seconds to notice I am out of meelee range, etc. You say that you guys don't always have 2 enhancement shamans in the raid, thus it can be hard to compare your dps to his without a greater sample size.
#7572SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Xiongmao
Just going with the Teron WWS parse:

For group composition, both of you received battle shout, and LoTP. The retribution paladin gives both of you 3% more crit and gives you 2% more damage, which relative to other buffs is not that major. Not sure about hunter, but I do not see Ferocious Inspiration, and I am not sure if TSA would show up on buff/debuffs in WWS. Thus in that particular encounter you both had similar buffs.

For totem twisting, you will actually see a lower shocks/minute than Karshie. Not 100% sure if the extra crit gained for 90% of the time makes up for this. Totem twisting is primarily to increase your group's total dps.

Teron is a short enough fight that RNG factors come into play, for example I have had parses with 50% crit rate on white attacks and 25% crit rate on Stormstrike, or some ridiculous miss% on my specials. In your WWS, while both your hit is similar, he had 5% less missed white attacks and 1% less missed WF attacks.

While you did less damage than he did, your dps was actually higher than his. Looking at both your DPS times, you have a 75% dps time, and he has a 97% dps time. The way WWS works, if you were to anhk after finishing your ghosts your dps would actually drop quite a bit.

These are just some things to note if you are trying to compare your DPS with him via WWS. Enhancement shaman dps is not very stable from week to week, especially with the short duration of "good" parse fights in Hyjal/BT. If Yo's simulator shows that you should be doing 200 more dps than him (there is an option for 4 piece t5 by the way, make sure to select that) and you consistently perform on or below par with him, it might be a playstyle issue. Simple things like hitting all cooldowns as soon as they are up GCD allowing; aggressiveness, running back in a couple ticks before Death and Decay finishes to do more dps; attentiveness, hell after a long week, there's been times the boss has been shifted and it takes me 5+ seconds to notice I am out of meelee range, etc. You say that you guys don't always have 2 enhancement shamans in the raid, thus it can be hard to compare your dps to his without a greater sample size.
Ok, so is Battleshout a multi-party buff? Because Karshie was in the tank group which had no warrior. Also, I didn't have the ret pally in my group, but maybe he did? I can't really remember. I'm a little confused on that end. On that Teron fight I got ghosted somewhere midway and he got a full run on Teron. I tried rezzing and coming back to the fight. . .nobody healed me and I gotta insta-gibbed once I got back.

Like I was saying, I don't think it's a playstyle issue. I'm working my butt off hitting SS at the correct time, trying to keep my shock rotation up, etc. It isn't like he's blowing me away or whatever, it just seems like I should be quite a bit above him and I'm not.

On this subject. . .Sunder X5 is going to be exponentially better the more armor pen you're carrying, right? Our Warlocks don't use CoR....
#7573SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
That's confusing. From a quick glance, he was the only one who gained Battle Shout in that group? Did he get switched midfight into some other group perhaps? It's pretty weird.
#7574SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imperator
Originally Posted by Illundai
That's confusing. From a quick glance, he was the only one who gained Battle Shout in that group? Did he get switched midfight into some other group perhaps? It's pretty weird.
Actually, I think once I got ghosted I told the raid leader to switch us so the melee group could get totems. Maybe that's why he got Battleshout on the WWS report.
#7575SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
I've got two issues that came up in a Gruul raid today. I was in a group with 3 rogues and a holy paladin. This brought up two separate questions.

First, the raid leader said he wanted the paladin in our group because of aura, in this particular case Concentration Aura (gives a 35% chance of ignoring spell interruption when damaged to all party members within 30 yards). I'm not sure if this was the best aura to use for this group, but puttin that aside which is best: 1) a paladin using an aura appropriate for a melee group; or 2) substituting the paladin with aonther melee dps who can make better use of Windfury totem?

Second, one of the rogues had poisons on his daggers. We were trying to figure out why he wasn't getting any Windfury procs and finally figured that out. Does anyone have a good comparison of rogues using poisons versus utilizing Windfury?

Thanks.
#7576SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yasuhiko
2) Substituting the paladin for an Arms or Fury warrior would have upped the DPS tremendously.
A non-ret paladin in a melee DPS group is the wrong choice, period. Only sanctity aura provides some benfit, and the real reason you stick a ret-pally in you group is for WF totem.
#7577SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Imperator
Actually, I think once I got ghosted I told the raid leader to switch us so the melee group could get totems. Maybe that's why he got Battleshout on the WWS report.
I wasn't entirely happy with my DPS when I was twisting and screwing up my shock rotation, what I did was try to not twist for a while and see how my personal DPS altered. I went up about 400DPS on Teron (mainly due to an absolute horrid spam of earth shock when twisting compared to a FS\ES rotation). Though it might be worth checking your DPS against his when you play more like him and dont twist.
#7578SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kombinat
I ask the more learned shaman bretheren to critique this wws parse of my guild's first Morogrim tidewalker kill:Kombinat - WWS

I seek more knowledge in order to do better on subsequent attempts.

I'm twisiting, shocking where possible, delaying Stormstrikes until WF is off cd.

I've asked my guild to critique me, but they've not been able to find fault with my work. Please, help me better serve them.

[e] I got the DST the day after our first kill, so please don't assume I had it then.
#7579SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Kombinat
I'm twisiting, shocking where possible, delaying Stormstrikes until WF is off cd.
I can't see anything that stands out with the WWS - Dont know what you want exactly.

Does seem you are keeping GoA down for longer than it should be? Depends what rotation you use for twisting but generally twisting AND waiting to use SS doesn't work that well, you end up with either delaying twisting (WF drops off of party) or delaying SS to after twisting and wasting even more time.
#7580SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
YourFileHost.com - Free hosting for ALL your files S2
There is screenshot. One SS and three flametongue procs.

EDIT: actually its only 2 per SS
#7581SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Would not best be to use SS + Stop attack macro for testing it? Or does autoattack slip into it then too?
#7582SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Xoya
Edit: ugh, I'm dumb, I had my trinkets misordered. DST had 25% uptime and BT trinket had 47%. Ignore me! Yo's sim is fine!

Last edited by Xoya : 03/02/08 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Nevermind, I'm dumb.
#7583SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3McCloude
I apologize if this is redundant and already covered somewhere in these forums. I've spent the last hour or so trying to find it and haven't seen a thing. If this is in fact covered somewhere, please PM me and delete the post to reduce spam.



I was raiding last night. put in a tank group because they were having threat issues. This tank proceeded to explain the above to me and decided WF totem was a waste for him. I've never seen this anywhere on this Holy Grail to our spec. I'm checking with you before I say anything about it. I'm 99% certain what he says is false.

Sorry again if it's been covered, Thankyou.
#7584SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
It sounds like that guy is a dipshit, but I can't really tell what he's even saying WF supposedly does.
#7585SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
I think he's saying that only two people can proc windfury off the totem at any one time.

Which is incorrect.

WF in the tank group is for threat or rage issues for warriors.
#7586SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Amagnus
I'm having an issue with my guild's raid policy where I'm not being allowed to have top priority for rolling on leather items. The current policy is that top priority goes to those classes whose best (in terms of protection) armor is what is being rolled for. So in my case, rogues have priority over me for leather items despite those items being significant upgrades to my dps.

I've tried explaining the concepts in this thread, particularly those dealing with emphasizing dps on gear without consideration of armor type. I questioned this initially but it obviously makes sense that armor doesn't come into play 99% of the time and only when we take too much threat (a mistake) or the tank is down (in which case we're going to wipe most the time anyway). Sure there's the occasional fight where the threat table comes into play for the occasional attack but I've committed (mentally as well as badges and lots of gold) to the concept of maximizing dps as the only deciding factor in gear selection.

How have others dealt with this type of policy? Any recommendations on what can be said to the officers in question to get them to understand this point?

This is very frustrating as I like the guild a lot, we're starting to get into 25-mans, but to me this is a deciding factor. I don't see the point in staying with a raiding guild if they don't both understand this concept and have a loot policy that is consistent with it. Am I off base here?

Thanks.

Last edited by Amagnus : 03/02/08 at 8:16 PM.
#7587SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Areus
It is your own guilds perogative about what gear you can take. Yes you are melee. But while leather is the best for you, you do have the option to wear hunter mail. Some of which is not terrible.

In my guild, I just used primarily mail items until we finally finished all progression content. Because for progression I personally believe a rogue will get a lot more use out of a leather item than I will. Now that we are done with progression for the time being, I am picking up leather gear pissing off our newer rogues... Its all about how your guild treats you and how you want to play your role within the raid.

If your own personal DPS isnt terrible to begin with then does it really matter where the Armor piece goes as long as that person is an active raider? At least, thats my view on it.

@McCloud - Your tank is full of shit. WF totem can proc for anyone in the group whenever, as long as they have the imbue applied.
#7588SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Binkenstein
It comes back to what we've been discussing in the elemental thread.

If you're likely to pick up an upgrade that's fairly close to "best in slot" that you'll be able to use and the rogues won't, grab that rather than going for the leather item (unless none of the rogues are after it). More upgrades for everyone, and you don't piss people off.
#7589SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3muSashiSF
I'm top 1-3 dps in my guild so I take what is best for me, and for the most part that is leather, why should I feel sorry for the rogues? I have the same right to take an item if its an upgrade for me. I mean I make the tier 6 people happy cause I dont take tier 6 items, why shouldnt I be allowed to take what's best in slot for me? That's just stupid especially when I have a perfect attendance and I do very high dps compared to many other people in the guild.

If my guild treated me like that Amagnus I would try to find a new home. Cause then an enhancement shaman should never take an upgrade cause the most gear current ingame are "rogue and hunter loot". It's your time man, your DKP.
#7590SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Myul
As i had proven a few pages back, best in slot leather/mail vs 5/5 full mail is only a 5% dps upgrade.

What's your state of progression? Do you think you can reach illidan in time and every rogue can get a tier 6 chest? If not, don't grab. It's not worth the guild drama. You rogues can get nothing else and their only job is dealing damage. If your hybrid support chars like enhance shaman, elemental shaman, feral cats or shadow priests beat your main damage dealer on meters, it might be skill... but it might be true, that you grabbed all the gear on the road. I was allways en par or on top of our melees, but with the better gear of everyone i'm now in the top 10 at last. And that's the way it should be. Every main damage dealer behind us should be dead or occupied with something else.

I have knewn that we reach illidan in time and our rogues will throw away all pieces immideately after they get their hands on tier 6. So i didn't worry and got my few leather pieces i want.
But, let them get their bracer/boots/waist first was for us the better advice, i used the badges and later mail stuff until noone else really needed it.

Amangus is in early tier 5/late tier 4 i guess, so taking two pieces tier 4 and all the karazhan loot he desire shouldn't be a problem. Adding season 3 chest/head and you have a very decent starting gear.

Links:
-Gear-
Leather
Tier 6 Mail
Mail
Early T5
-Difference-
<3 search this thread

Last edited by Myul : 03/03/08 at 2:48 AM.
#7591SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mkael
Originally Posted by McCloude
I apologize if this is redundant and already covered somewhere in these forums. I've spent the last hour or so trying to find it and haven't seen a thing. If this is in fact covered somewhere, please PM me and delete the post to reduce spam.



I was raiding last night. put in a tank group because they were having threat issues. This tank proceeded to explain the above to me and decided WF totem was a waste for him. I've never seen this anywhere on this Holy Grail to our spec. I'm checking with you before I say anything about it. I'm 99% certain what he says is false.

Sorry again if it's been covered, Thankyou.
Well hard to say what he is getting at, I believe the 2ppl reference is about the group setup (otherwise it doesnt make any sense at all) 2 tanks, lock, pala and somethine else most likely so he believes the WF is a waste since only the tanks get it. However since the RL put you in the tank group for Threat I dont see why he is arguing with you, no other totem provide it in the same amount.
#7592SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3punkrockrobot
Lets talk Hit. Is there a Hit Cap?
I have like 206 now is that too much?

I just got my 1st t5 item (the shoulders), but from the looks of all t5 items they completely suck. I have the ZA Shoulders that drop from the bear. My second question is should I even use t5? Seems like it would gimp my dps
#7593SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
26.5% or 28% is needed to not miss while dual wielding (depends on who you ask ).

26.5%-9% (talents) = 17.5%

17.5*15.8=276.5 hit rating to maximise your hit.

Or 19*15.8=300.2 hit rating required.

So don't worry, without stacking for it (using hittrinkets and gems) you won't ever reach the cap.

4 piece t5 is very strong, but if you can get your hands on ZA loot and all the random pieces around in tier 5 instances, you shouldn't worry about it.
#7594SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aksing
Originally Posted by punkrockrobot
Lets talk Hit. Is there a Hit Cap?
I have like 206 now is that too much?

I just got my 1st t5 item (the shoulders), but from the looks of all t5 items they completely suck. I have the ZA Shoulders that drop from the bear. My second question is should I even use t5? Seems like it would gimp my dps
/golfclap at even bothering to read the OP

For you to not have T6 and have that much hit sounds like you've either gemmed for some, or have chosen pieces specifically for their hit rating. And no i cba to look at your armoury page.

The T5 enhancement set doesn't suck at all. It's actually pretty damn good, and the difference between T5 > T6 isn't as big as you may think, especially when they put mp5 on it >.>
#7595SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Aksing
/golfclap at even bothering to read the OP

For you to not have T6 and have that much hit sounds like you've either gemmed for some, or have chosen pieces specifically for their hit rating. And no i cba to look at your armoury page.
That's not really true. Your hit decreases from most of your gear as you progress further into content, it's just made up randomly by huge chunks on specific pieces. Remembering back I had quite a bit more hit than I do/did simply because it was included on almost every piece of dungeon gear.

T5 shoulders are also quite terrible, but the rest of the set isn't bad.
#7596SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
I have seen several people make comments on delaying stormstrike for the windfury cooldown. If there is a mod you are using to track the WF CD could you please share it?
#7597SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hornbreakerz
Sorry, but i really cba to look through a hundred pages to see if someone has already posted this...

But is there any Meta value for Relentless Earthstorm Diamond to put in Loot Rank?


Edit: Oh.. and Poofypajamas, i use Enhancer to do that, it's available through Ace, so download the thing called Aceupdater, u can get it there and also use it to update most of ur addons
#7598SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Amagnus
I'm having an issue with my guild's raid policy where I'm not being allowed to have top priority for rolling on leather items. The current policy is that top priority goes to those classes whose best (in terms of protection) armor is what is being rolled for. So in my case, rogues have priority over me for leather items despite those items being significant upgrades to my dps.
I don't know if this helps, but I'll tell you what I told my guild about this. I've done my research on gear; before I even step foot in an instance, I know what every boss in it drops, what items are upgrades, what items are the best on the list of upgrades, and what I might be able to get elsewhere that would be as good or better. I don't roll/bid on items that I'm not 100% sure I want. As an enhancement shaman, I will always be competing with either rogues or hunters. Period. It's (generally speaking) one or the other for each individual item. I can either compete with rogues for the items that are better, or I can compete with hunters for gear that might be best in slot for them, but I will most likely vendor in a week or two once the rogues have the item I really want.

Since then, I generally pass hunter gear to hunters unless there's none present or the item is best-in-slot for me as well, and compete on leather, instead of the other way around. It results in less wasted gear, less enchanting/gemming costs on my part, and ultimately better guild DPS. Your guild just has to trust that you know best when it comes to your gear. It's generally accepted in my guild that I know itemization better than Blizzard seems to, so it's not really a problem for us.
#7599SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by poofypajamas
I have seen several people make comments on delaying stormstrike for the windfury cooldown. If there is a mod you are using to track the WF CD could you please share it?
I use Enhancer. There are links for it floating around this thread, or you can get it from wowace.com I think. It does a lot of other handy things, like remind me when water shield isn't up, too.



Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz
Sorry, but i really cba to look through a hundred pages to see if someone has already posted this...

But is there any Meta value for Relentless Earthstorm Diamond to put in Loot Rank?
Also, I cba to answer a question that you could easily find the answer to by using the "Search this thread" feature.
#7600SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Hornbreakerz
Oh yeah, forgot that i can use that! Thanks for reminding me

Btw, for Enhancer.. it also reminds u when ur shields has run out and when ur weapons buffs run out aswell! It's really nice!

Last edited by Hornbreakerz : 03/03/08 at 11:37 AM.
#7601SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Amagnus
I'm having an issue with my guild's raid policy where I'm not being allowed to have top priority for rolling on leather items. The current policy is that top priority goes to those classes whose best (in terms of protection) armor is what is being rolled for. So in my case, rogues have priority over me for leather items despite those items being significant upgrades to my dps.
Well, you're up a certain creek, mate -- the mail gear at that tier is terrible!

My advice to you is simple: get your set pieces, get the shoulders off Nalorak, get the best weapons you can and spend the rest of your effort farming for badge gear. Master Assassin's Wristguards are cheap and way better than anything you'd roll on. Same with Ninjah's Tabi Boots.
#7602SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
<img src="/images/chestnut/misc/citation.gi
#7626SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by Fluweel
Hello,

Just a question, what is the best ? Flame tongue totem or deadly poison (or sharpening/weight stones) for a combat rogue ?

Thanks,

Fluweel.
I'm stunned. Honestly, I'm speechless.

I'd say windfury totem though, and recommend you to read the original post. I never thought I'd read that.
#7627SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dombrovo
Hey I was wondering if someone could explain how the EP of weapons, 9.03 MH and 3.7 OH, scales with their speed. For example I read on these forums that the EP of above is tuned for 2.60 speed weapons. I have also read that for different speed weapons, i.e 2.50 speed badge weapons and 2.80 speed Syphon, have varying EP values placed on DPS. So by what percentage the EP is reduced or increased in comparison to weapon speed.
Thank you in advance!
#7628SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Thank you for the tipps for Archimonde, I will talk to my raidleader and hopefully get into the meleegroup.

And Fluwell if you can't put down a wf totem the rogue should use his poisons (instantpoison on MH and deadly poison on offhand was what I saw just glancing at the Roguecraft 101 thread) I think.
#7629SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Fluweel
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
I'm stunned. Honestly, I'm speechless.

I'd say windfury totem though, and recommend you to read the original post. I never thought I'd read that.
Sorry for my english I'm french, I reformulate my question :

My feral druid have a low aggro and in certain situations I help with a goa totem. I don't like twisting therefore what is the best ? Flame tongue totem or self buff for combat rogue ?

Fluweel.
#7630SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
I am gearing up a shaman to be ready to raid as soon as possible.

But i want to know what EP values people are assigning to INT and STA.

Im guessing i will be using the middle Raid EP values for gearing up, and then calculating my own values when i have the gear.

Any advise on what values to use for INT and STA ?
#7631SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Leonina
0 for DPS.
#7632SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Grung
I am gearing up a shaman to be ready to raid as soon as possible.

But i want to know what EP values people are assigning to INT and STA.

Im guessing i will be using the middle Raid EP values for gearing up, and then calculating my own values when i have the gear.

Any advise on what values to use for INT and STA ?
Zero. Int and stamina have no effect whatsoever on DPS. Maybe some marginal amount of spell crit for shocks (lol), and technically a dead shaman can't do any damage, but you'll never have mana problems and you should never be worried about dying except on very specific fights. Without looking at my gear, I'm pretty sure I only have one item (a set hat) that even has int on it. Int and stam are worth zero DPS. Don't gear for them.
#7633SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
I know they are worth 0 as dps.

i was just wondering if anyone gearing up gave them a value like 0.1 EP or something, since when i start to raid i will jump right into BT, where stamina would mean a little on some fights.
#7634SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Grung, how would you propose that we relate Stamina to Attack Power? (because that's what an EP is)
#7635SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kirion
Originally Posted by Fluweel
Sorry for my english I'm french, I reformulate my question :

My feral druid have a low aggro and in certain situations I help with a goa totem. I don't like twisting therefore what is the best ? Flame tongue totem or self buff for combat rogue ?

Fluweel.
Poisons are better.
#7636SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
If you would trade 1AP for 15000 Extra HP, then stamina has some value to you. The question is just how much the value is.

But i got the point that you don't value stamina, and i would also like to hear if anyone actually do value it at some low value.
#7637SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Yes, we all value stam at some low value.

That value is zero.

Come on, seriously think this out on your own. If you had 10 slots of gear with no stamina on it and you could survive every fight, that would be perfect. If you need 10k HP for a fight, then wear 10k HP and take it off afterward. Its your and your raid's preference and I really question why anyone needs to keep asking about this.
#7638SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
You should go edit the front page post then, where you write

"Note that values are not assigned here to Stamina or Intellect; these stats do carry some value for raiding enhancement shamans, but any assignment of value to them would be arbitrary and is for each individual shaman to decide on her own."
#7639SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Myul, you've spun this yarn before, and you're comparing apples to oranges. Best in slot at T6 is not the same as best in slot at T4. Mail doesn't catch up to leather until you get to T5.
Don't get me wrong, i was only answering on the question about the best gear avaible. You are right, that leather is much stronger on the t4 progression state. But i really dislike wearing 110% damage 0% stats items. Al'ar, Voidreaver, Solarion, Vashj, Leotheras, Lurker - do you really want to fight them with ~ 8.000 hp buffed?

Value of stamina: 0 is you have enough and feel comfortable and y if you want to reach point x.
#7640SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Or, everyone could put on their thinking caps and figure that out for themselves. This isn't a primer on how to play the game, its an explanation of the mechanics behind Enhancement Shaman. Stamina has zero value to anyone who isn't the tank, this isn't new and this isn't rocket science.
#7641SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
If it makes you feel better, give it a non-zero value of ~0.0000000000001. That should be low enough that you'll never trade a DPS stat for it, but will take an item with identical stats but more stamina compared to what you have. Of course, I would call that common sense, but to each his own.
#7642SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Decide how much health you need to live through a fight. Equip the items with the highest EP values that give you that much health. If you can live through fights without difficulty, the value of stamina is zero. If you can't, the value of stamina is so incredibly high that it outweighs anything else you could get on your items. How much health you need to survive depends on so many factors (such as personal skill, healer skill, number of healers, strategy used for specific fights, etc.) that assigning a generalized number really isn't useful.
#7643SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shakkha
did someone link this thread to public board again today :s

Like other said Sta and Int have 0ep value. Which reflects their value in gearing up. If you want to put more sta in order to survive, you are sacrificating dps, this is showed by the loss of EP from gear change since you're now getting stats like Sta which contribute to 0 ep, so by doing so you decrese your dps potential.

I think it's kinda obvious.

Waiting for the 'what's the cap on hit rating' question to come now.
#7644SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Grung
You should go edit the front page post then, where you write

"Note that values are not assigned here to Stamina or Intellect; these stats do carry some value for raiding enhancement shamans, but any assignment of value to them would be arbitrary and is for each individual shaman to decide on her own."
Hang on a sec. You just quoted exactly what the OP says. What the hell are you saying I need to edit? It clearly states that Stamina and Int have arbitrary values that YOU need to decide on your own.
#7645SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Giving int and stamina a stat weight is pretty silly for anybody who isn't a tank or leveling solo. You're bound to get some pretty ridiculous selections that won't help your DPS in the long run.

Get the gear that has the DPS stats, and if you need more health: gem for it, chant for it, pot for it, eat stam food and be done with it. Then as you add gear that naturally has more stamina, you can slowly strip off the training wheels.

You're obviously in a rush. Why gear up twice?

Elixir of Fortification: 500 Health
Talbuk Steak: 200 Health
Fortitude to Boots: 120 Health
Fortitude to Bracers: 120 Health
Health to Chest: 150 Health
Nethercleft Leg Armor: 400 Health
Glyph of the Gladiator: 180 Health

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/04/08 at 10:36 AM.
#7646SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaz
Could someone please post rough EP values for metagems if possible? I'm using Pawn to calculate EP values for items, but headpieces with metagems get skewed values because I have no idea on what value to use for meta gems.

I'm most interested in the EP value for an [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] really, so if someone could post a EP value even for this one meta gem I'd be most pleased.
#7647SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Khaz
I'm most interested in the EP value for an [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] really, so if someone could post a EP value even for this one meta gem I'd be most pleased.
1) This was just discussed exactly ONE PAGE AGO, and about every fifth page before that, learn to search.
2) It depends on your stats.
3) You could easily simulate it. It would take about 5 minutes.
4) 70 EP is the value somebody came up with. It closely matches my own.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/04/08 at 10:49 AM.
#7648SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaz
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
1) This was just discussed exactly ONE PAGE AGO, and about every fifth page before that, learn to search.
2) It depends on your stats.
3) You could easily simulate it. It would take about 5 minutes.
4) 70 EP is the value somebody came up with. It closely matches my own.
Thanks. Forum is being slow to load, and not knowing exactly what page its on without searching (the search doesnt seem to be working for me either) made it a lot easier to just ask at the end of the entire thread.

Updating the First post with the information underneath the metagem section might be a good idea, as then I wouldnt have needed to ask the question.
#7649SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Oh my god an actual mechanics question

I was wondering if the order of on-action proc operations was deterministic, and more importantly whether procs resulting in damage were evaluated before or after procs that could potentially augment them.

For example, I have a swing that crits, proccing the Hourglass, Unleashed Rage and Windfury. Will Windfury get the benefit of the additional AP? Will the swing that crit get these benefits?

If a shock procs the Skyshatter totem, does that shock receive an extra 33 bonus damage?
#7650SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
The swing that crit will not get the effects of the bonuses that came off of it, only events that happen after. Similarly, the shock that procs Stonebreaker (if that's the one you meant?) won't get the bonus spell damage from AP.

I'm not entirely sure about the Windfury hits that come from a WF proc on that swing. My guess is that they do, as the WF proc event technically occurs after the swing, but then again so do the UR and Rage of the Unraveller procs.
#7651SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Dombrovo
Hey I was wondering if someone could explain how the EP of weapons, 9.03 MH and 3.7 OH, scales with their speed. For example I read on these forums that the EP of above is tuned for 2.60 speed weapons. I have also read that for different speed weapons, i.e 2.50 speed badge weapons and 2.80 speed Syphon, have varying EP values placed on DPS. So by what percentage the EP is reduced or increased in comparison to weapon speed.
Thank you in advance!
EP is based around ap which is bound directly to weapon dps, both are independent from weapon speed.
14/1.1 ap (1.1 comes from Unleashed Rage) is same as having raw dps on both weapons increased by 1. It goes other way around, regardless of weapon speed: EP value of mainhand dps + EP value of offhand DPS = 14/1.1
What can change is their proportion (8/4.73 instead of 9.03/3.7 for example).
The important parameter is DPS value per 1 EP (total DPS that you perform, not raw DPS) ,
One may say that slow weapons provide better EP to DPS conversion.
#7652SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Toots: I can link you, if need be, but what I did was go through the WWS logs for raids for a few weeks and browse my procs. The order in the combat log is Hit, Gain, always. If you hit, proc hourglass, and proc windfury, it will go: Hit, Gain (Hourglass), Gain (Windfury), Hit-Hit. The Windfury proc (Hit-Hit) will be made with the benifit of the Hourglass.

I haven't seen something like this:
Hit
Windfury
Proc
Windfury

But I'm not positive that it can't happen.
#7653SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Emily
Originally Posted by First Post
Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds..
Dumb question perhaps - what do T, t D and A represent?
#7654SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Season
Yes i know this has probally already been said..

But for you shammys out there,,,


How do you dps,, SS than earth/flame? and do you keep searing totems down all time? just wondering.

Thanks
#7655SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Emily
Dumb question perhaps - what do T, t D and A represent?
Let D be your dps without a boot enchant. For the run speed to provide more benefit, we need:
(D+12A)(T-t) < (D+6A)(T-t/1.08)
which simplifies to
T < [(1-k)D + (2-k)6A]t/(6A)
where k = 1/1.08. For example, gives A = .16286, and so we have
T < (.07581D + 1.074) t
Using some actual data, a shaman that does betwen 900 and 1000 dps will have T < 76.88t
For 5 minutes, we would need t > 3.90 seconds and for 6 minutes we would need t > 4.68 seconds..

Sorry, I didn't quote this very well.

"Let D be your dps without a boot enchant."
D = dps without a boot enchant

The comparison is agility enchant vs. run speed + agility enchant. The formulas use D+12A vs. D+6A.
A = dps that one agility would yield.

T and t are both units of time. T is the overall time, and little t is time spent running not doing dps. I figured this out by noticing that t was being divided by the bonus in run speed. Therefore t is time spent running, unable to DPS at all, which is why it represent a loss of dps.


Originally Posted by Season
Yes i know this has probally already been said..
How do you dps,, SS than earth/flame? and do you keep searing totems down all time? just wondering.
Thanks
Season, you will be banned from these forums if you post that you are refusing to use the search function. Your first statement clearly shows you refused to use it.

Use the search function with words like DPS cycle, DPS routine.
Alternatively you could rephrase your question to something more meaningful, like, "I currently use WF on both weapons, autoattack a creature, then stormstrike and earth shock whenever the cooldown is up. Is this the correct way for me to maximize my damage? I've read the first post and it does not mention what sort of damage routine I should be following."


p.s. Malan or Yo!, I know this sounds childish, but could you post how you think a shaman should be attacking?
Yo!, your simulator is being touted as the defacto standard for determining AEP, but we don't know how it determines what attacks it is using. Do you consider that searing totem is down before the pull and that it uses up a GCD every 60seconds? Does the code look for an open spot in the GCDs when the searing totem has less than 5seconds left? If we don't select wait on the WF 3sec. cooldown, does your sim choose stormstrike over shock if both cooldowns finish at the same time? Little questions like this could make sure we the users are doing the actions required to hit that potential dps.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/04/08 at 5:09 PM.
#7656SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
To my knowledge, Yo's sim does not simulate the GCD on SS, shocks or totem drops. It also does not simulate lag. This is why you need to specify you shocks per 2 minutes.
#7657SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Season
yes i know Yo! but it did not count totems or any of that stuff... i did the search tool.. all it said was flame shock with its DoT, but i mean some trash fights you kill the mob in like 5 seconds,, so why use flame? if the dot will not matter at all.

Totems wont plug into yo!

i was wondering like during a boss fight,, Searing over fire nova?

anyway,, ppl dont have to answer if they dont want. IDC it was just a question.. just when you search and no answer pops up shouldnt i post? lol
#7658SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Season
yes i know Yo! but it did not count totems or any of that stuff... i did the search tool.. all it said was flame shock with its DoT, but i mean some trash fights you kill the mob in like 5 seconds,, so why use flame? if the dot will not matter at all.

Totems wont plug into yo!

i was wondering like during a boss fight,, Searing over fire nova?

anyway,, ppl dont have to answer if they dont want. IDC it was just a question.. just when you search and no answer pops up shouldnt i post? lol
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

By the way, I found that post by searching for DPS sequence (no quotation marks). It was the third entry down.

Perhaps putting some thought and effort into your search would make your searches more helpful.
#7659SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Limited GCD support is implemented - SS is given higher priority if they both come out of cooldown at the same time with shock. It is not trying to fit totem GCDs. There are uncovered possible collisions that may happen in game when, for example, someone chooses to "wait 3 sec" and SS comes out of cooldown 2 sec before WF cooldown ends and you have to think ahead if you want to SS now and shock 1.5 seconds later or delay SS and miss shock entirely because the deadline for totem-refreshing is 1 sec after WF cooldown's end.. .
You have an option to account for such things as well as for your reaction time in sim with adjusting "number of shocks per 2 minutes" to what you actually perform in-game. Sim assumes that all of your totems are 100% time up from the start - if you selected agi and 24 shocks per 2 minutes sim takes no interest if you are twisting or not, it performs shocks on regular intervals (determined by "shocks per 2 minutes" parameter) as well as stormstriking (every 10/9 seconds). First SS is performed on 0 sec timeline (no "warm-up tank-building-agro period" that is not significant for the duration of the fight anyway), first shock on 1.5.
All procs are modeled as being triggered after the damage from the strike is calculated.

"How a shaman should be attacking?" is not easy.
One may choose to totem-twist, burn all available GCDs while constantly keeping close eye on WF cooldowns and instantly making decisions what ability to delay if they overlap, refresh ST and EoS totems beforehand in case their refresh time may overlap with another ability, plan lesser cooldowns around bigger ones such as bloodlust (easy example - activate 15-seconds-long ap-increasing trinket so that it covers 2 stormstrikes). That is not easy really and can be very frustrating.. Totem-twisting and SS-delay were invented out of boredom but combined with regular routine and encounter specials became time+nerve - consuming. Not funny thing is that you further try to increase your dps twisting fire nova/ST
Another shaman may choose to go with macros based around 10 seconds’ intervals, pressing just 2 keys for the duration of the fight, fitting big cooldowns sometimes.
DPS difference between the 2 will be 10% at most (likely <5%) because we are very gear-dependant class with relatively small part of dps being player-controlled. Biggest decision to be made is "to twist or not to twist". Totem twisting may be considered something that indicates hardcore-pve shaman and may appear as entry requirement for some guilds. High gear-dependence also results in that planning gear and theorycrafting before the fight can be rewarding more than to other classes.
#7660SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Jarlaxle
Hey guys, I need help with Yo! Simulator.

I am running some 2000hour simulations and I am not sure if the EP results are right.

Most of them seem okay, but the armor penetration seems really low.

Mystats:
AP - 1446.3 (added in bloodlust brooch)
Crit - 30.77%
Hit% - 15.2 (9% from talents and 95 rating)
329 - Armor Ignore
s1 Axes (orc)
335 STR
229 AGI

I am coming up with the following EP Weights
AP = 1
Crit Rating = 1.81
Hit Rating = 1.5
Armor Penetration = .28 ??
STR = 2.2
AGI - 1.76
Expertise = 3

Does armor pierce seem right to you guys? I would have expected higher with the amount I am carrying right now.

Last edited by Jarlaxle : 03/04/08 at 6:48 PM.
#7661SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Level (Item - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

Armor Pen is worth 0.15 in the item budget compared to str's 1 and AP's 0.5. It makes sense.

Edit: Which means that one ArPen rating is very cheap compared to str. You need lots of it to modify your DPS.
#7662SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by McCloude
Well To sum it up, I was put in a group with 3 warriors and a druid. That tank said that WF only procs for two people at any time so it's a waste. Which I said was BS. I have decided that the warrior is an idiot and that's it. I Feel like I'm pulling teeth for the RL's to put me in melee groups. Finally got in a melee group with this warrior again (dps spec this time). Go figure WF totem wasn't better than the +9 sharpening stone. His loss, I'm done trying to convince.
On a related note: Dont twist if you are put in the tank gorup to drop WFT.
On one of my trial raids I was put in the tank group on VR o help with threat. Halfway through the run I was moved out the group for dropping GoA (I was twisting). I explained to the raid leader, but to those 3/4 tanks I looked like an idiot becuase of their ignorance of our mechanics.

It sounds like oyu might be in similar company.

[e]
Question I have wanted to ask for a while.
How close should a totem-twister aim to get to their theoretical DPS from Yo's sim ?
Last Teron I posted 1070 DPS twisting for the full duration, and the sim posts my dps as being 1260 with the gear/buffs I recieved. Is this a reasonable performance or am I not hitting my potential, it would be nice to see how close others are managing to get to their "ideal".

Last edited by Wraithlin : 03/04/08 at 7:36 PM.
#7663SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Jarlaxle
Originally Posted by Raut
Level (Item - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

Armor Pen is worth 0.15 in the item budget compared to str's 1 and AP's 0.5. It makes sense.

Edit: Which means that one ArPen rating is very cheap compared to str. You need lots of it to modify your DPS.
Ahh I would have assume with the amount I have right now, it would be valued more. Guess not.

Executioner would result in a loss of DPS according to Yo!

Mongoose it is (still)
#7664SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3saintstryfe
Originally Posted by Jarlaxle
Ahh I would have assume with the amount I have right now, it would be valued more. Guess not.

Executioner would result in a loss of DPS according to Yo!

Mongoose it is (still)
that is what I found, even on a lower end of things.

I have two [Gladiator's Cleaver], one enchanted EXE and one with Mongoose. I kept Mongoose in my main while EXE in the off. Not bad DPS, but when I got [Fury] I accidently forgot to buy the STR potions, so I had it enchanted Mongoose as well. My DPS skyrocketed. Now, DPS and stat wise, the [Gladiator's Cleaver] is (very slightly) superior, so I have to think Mongoose was the reason my overall DPS went up.

(So why use Fury? Crit. I'm not into T5 content and yet I've got 29.79% crit unbuffed. and I still need epic rings.)
#7665SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3faight
Hey guys, a quick question:

Is there any place we can find a listinging of "Recommended" stats for each raid tier? I got my shaman to 70 a few months ago, but due to moving/new job/etc I missed a lot of raids and chances to gear up. However, my current guild is starting to do ZA and is implementing a "gear check" of sorts. I know this isn't as bit as running end-game raids, but it's new to us as we're a casual guild. Unfortunately for me, I'm rather far behind at the moment, and I've been trying to catch up. I'd rather not be a burden on DPS despite supplying WF and all the other goodies we have, and I have learned how to twist and do it constantly in our Kara runs. I never fall off the DPS charts completely, but I'm not tearing them apart either. I do read up on the strats for raids before we run them, which leaves me knowledgeable about the encounters, so I'm not sitting there saying "WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE DOES THAT THING WHERE OUR HP GOES TO 1?" during Prince or anything, I'm just undergeared.

So I guess my big question is: What sort of AP/crit/etc do you need for the dungeons as you progress? I know to aim for 30% crit, but other than that I am lost. A list would be nice. I swear I saw one in this thread before, but after searching it for a while I decided I would ask, and maybe there are other up and coming shaman who have the same question and could benefit from this information as well.

Basically I guess a list like this:

Kara Minimums
AP: 1000
Crit: 20%
Haste: X%
Armor Pierce: X
HP: (if there is an HP check)
Weapon Level: (S1, S2, S3, crafted epics, etc)

Etcetera. I don't know if I'm missing stats, and I just sort of put stuff in at random. I think I was told I needed at least 1000 AP to do decent in Kara, but I can't remember who told me.

Thank you in advance.
#7666SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
No, that is a stupid idea because it is going to vary with every guild and on every run. You won't "need" any level of gear in SSC if everyone else is wearing T6; on the other hand, you'll "need" to be wearing full T6-equivalents if you're shooting for a 4-chest run in ZA and most of the other people are in T5. If you want to see what kind of stats you "should" have, then use a character planner and equip the highest value items from each tier of gear (use LootRank with T4/5/6 EP values and pick the proper gear level (Heroic, T4 instances/kara, T5 instances/ZA, from the dropdown).
#7667SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
Question I have wanted to ask for a while.
How close should a totem-twister aim to get to their theoretical DPS from Yo's sim ?
Last Teron I posted 1070 DPS twisting for the full duration, and the sim posts my dps as being 1260 with the gear/buffs I recieved. Is this a reasonable performance or am I not hitting my potential, it would be nice to see how close others are managing to get to their "ideal".
On Teron you can definitely exceed the dps number from the simulator(on average), due to things like Bloodlust and the short duration of the encounter. Teron is weird though. The encounter is so short that luck can be a large factor. I'll have attempts in which I make plenty of mistakes and still break 2k+ dps, or other attempts in which I play nearly perfectly, receive multiple Bloodlusts and a permanent drum rotation, and only finish at like 1600 dps. Anyway, on average I would guess that my actual dps on Teron exceeds that of the simulator.
#7668SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tristan
Didn't see this before and actually never tried it on PTR neither (I mostly stand still in deserted places anyway): WoW Forums -> [Bug] ? Totemic Recall still has GCD Post #87

Going far out of range of totems trigger DestroyTotem() or at least destroys them with mana gain, anyone here that can verify it? Gonna pop on to PTR again tonight when I get back from work and test it.
#7669SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by faight
So I guess my big question is: What sort of AP/crit/etc do you need for the dungeons as you progress? I know to aim for 30% crit, but other than that I am lost. A list would be nice. I swear I saw one in this thread before, but after searching it for a while I decided I would ask, and maybe there are other up and coming shaman who have the same question and could benefit from this information as well.
I really try to stay away from hard minimums, with a few exceptions. For the most part, if you know how to gear yourself, you'll be in the best gear you can conceivably be in given the drops that you've been lucky (or unlucky, as the case may be) enough to have. The only time minimums come in handy are for what consumables you use. For example, you want to be at >= 30% crit raid buffed at all times (i.e., not including mongoose procs), to keep UR up for your group and Flurry up for yourself. If you find that you aren't, consider using [Elixir of Major Agility] over [Flask of Relentless Assault]. They're very similar in EP, but if you're learning content, you'll burn through a lot of elixirs. Worth it, though, if your crit is hurting.

Don't worry about haste - if you happen across a piece here and there, like [Cloak of Fiends], great, but in general it's not available on Kara/heroic gear. It's a nice stat, but not a required stat--even at a T6 level. Same with armor pen.

It sounds like you're doing a good job at trying to improve your performance, and looking in all the right places. I honestly wouldn't worry about twisting most of the time, especially in Kara - work on your personal DPS first, then work twisting into longer fights where it will make a difference, like Bear, Lynx, and maybe Nightbane for fun. If you find that you're still underperforming, then run heroics like there's no tomorrow on nights that you're not in Kara or ZA. Save the badges for 2.4, get the two slow fist weapons (what weapons are you using, anyway? I can't armory from work--if you don't have at least S1, get them immediately and start working on S2/3), then start in on the leather gear. Also consider your typical raid composition - if you run caster-heavy and don't usually have Leader of the Pack, Battle Shout, Expose Weakness, Sunderx5, Faerie Fire, or whatever else, while your casters have group synergies working for them, you may never catch up, and it's not because you're doing something wrong.
#7670SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
It's all about DPS. Stats should lead to higher DPS, but you can have one stat high and still suck because shaman DPS is a feedback system. Your Expertise gloves, for example, don't help your AP much but will help your DPS a lot.

So know your DPS. Know your EP and only take upgrades that have a higher EP. Stay away from, say, [Beastmaw Pauldrons] and other gear that wastes a lot of its budget on stats that won't give you better DPS. You have one of the best MH weapons in the game, put Mongoose on it. Your quickest upgrade is a decent offhand...the first boss in heroic Underbog has a very nice one.

What DPS is good enough for Kara? Well, I've been fortunate enough to see new alts and folks with bizarre PvP specs doing 200 or 300 dps in there on a full clear -- this is because I was in there doing 800. Your goal should be to be in the top 3, around 500 dps.
#7671SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
What DPS is good enough for Kara? Well, I've been fortunate enough to see new alts and folks with bizarre PvP specs doing 200 or 300 dps in there on a full clear -- this is because I was in there doing 800. Your goal should be to be in the top 3, around 500 dps.
This got me thinking about what my DPS was like when we first started Kara, and I didn't know what the hell I was doing, in addition to wearing mostly blues and whatever early-Kara stuff that had happened to drop. Aran has always been my benchmark, because at the time our raids were pretty threat-limited, and Aran is a very balls-to-the-walls-melee-awesome-fest. I think our first few Aran kills before I got anything resembling good gear, I was doing 800 DPS minimum on him, with a feral druid and battle shout.

Nalorakk is another good DPS benchmark. If you're doing ZA just to clear it, you should aim to be able to do 700-800 DPS on him. Down the road, if you're looking to do it on the timer, scrape together every buff you can (down to silly things like [Flame Cap]) and really try to break into 4-digit DPS; if you don't have at least 2-3 people who can break 1k DPS in the raid, you're not likely to get even the first chest, and this fight is very melee friendly so you can pull out all the stops.
#7672SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Ortis
Hydross the Unstable

Old question for most of you guys I am sure. What shock rotation do you use on hydross. Earth shock, flame shock while in Pure form, and frost shock, flame shock in Tainted form or do you just skip frost shocks in the rotation? Secondly do you guys avoid flame shock just before a transition so you don't grab aggro as soon as the flame shock ticks damage? Or do you simply make sure your but is across the line and hope the tank generates enough aggro fast enough not to get ganked?

I searched the forum, but mostly found discussions about totems on this fight.

Last edited by Ortis : 03/05/08 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Typos
#7673SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
For example, you want to be at >= 30% crit raid buffed at all times (i.e., not including mongoose procs), to keep UR up for your group and Flurry up for yourself.
Well, UR uptime is 98% with 20% crit and pushing it to 25% crit gives you 99% uptime, so that's not a real concern.

Flurry uptime is great for your DPS, but doesn't provide any other benefit besides possibly better mana regen during SR; anyway, it's 80% with 25% crit and 85% with 30% crit, so you're not going to be seeing a gigantic difference in terms of mana regen. So, I have to disagree with your idea to use Agility elixirs over FoRAs... use whatever EP (or the sim) suggests is better!
#7674SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Ortis
Old question for most of you guys I am sure. What shock rotation do you use on hydross. Earth shock, flame shock while in Pure form, and frost shock, flame shock in Tainted form or do you just skip frost shocks in the rotation?
Whether or not to skip frost shocks depends on your tank's TPS (i.e. skill) and your mana situation.
Secondly do you guys avoid flame shock just before a transition so you don't grab aggro as soon as the flame shock ticks damage?
Yep.
#7675SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Ortis
Old question for most of you guys I am sure. What shock rotation do you use on hydross. Earth shock, flame shock while in Pure form, and frost shock, flame shock in Tainted form or do you just skip frost shocks in the rotation? Secondly do you guys avoid flame shock just before a transition so you don't grab aggro as soon as the flame shock ticks damage? Or do you simply make sure your but is across the line and hope the tank generates enough aggro fast enough not to get ganked?

I searched the forum, but mostly found discussions about totems on this fight.
You didn't mention it but if you don't know, don't leave searing totem down either between switches... caused afew *ahem* moments in the past. Amazing how much aggro such a little totem can pull
#7676SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Doing Leo with, and without Searing Totem is a world of difference. If nobody runs anywhere stupid during whirlwind (or the damn hunters don't stop dps when they should), he goes right back to the tank spot and it makes DPS in elf form so much easier.
#7677SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Rob
Well, UR uptime is 98% with 20% crit and pushing it to 25% crit gives you 99% uptime, so that's not a real concern.

Flurry uptime is great for your DPS, but doesn't provide any other benefit besides possibly better mana regen during SR; anyway, it's 80% with 25% crit and 85% with 30% crit, so you're not going to be seeing a gigantic difference in terms of mana regen. So, I have to disagree with your idea to use Agility elixirs over FoRAs... use whatever EP (or the sim) suggests is better!
What +hit do you assume in those calculations? The math in the OP assumes 15% total (talents + ~95 rating, which is admittedly a bit low for a raiding shaman but possibly not low for early Kara-level), and comes out with < 98% UR uptime and 57% flurry uptime with 30% crit. (Though the Flurry math leaves out other sources of crits, like Windfury and Stormstrike, so it will actually be higher. I don't have a good way to model it at work, but I can't imagine it would be over 20% higher with 10% less crit chance by adding WF and SS.) Don't want to say you're absolutely wrong, but those uptimes seem unreasonably high for very low crit% without some math to back it up.

[e] Put another way, your autoattack Flurry uptime (i.e., not counting WF and SS) with 20% crit will be 42% with 13% total miss, using the formula on the front page (1 - (1-Crit%)^3)*(1-Miss%). I'm saying that I'm skeptical that adding in WF and SS, which for me are ~0.35 hits per second on average compared to ~0.78 autoattack hits per second with flurry down/~1.1 hits per second with flurry up, will almost double that uptime even though they can't miss.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 03/05/08 at 2:28 PM.
#7678SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Mox
You didn't mention it but if you don't know, don't leave searing totem down either between switches... caused afew *ahem* moments in the past. Amazing how much aggro such a little totem can pull
That's actually not that surprising - I don't remember if it was in this thread or one of the other shaman threads around here, but supposedly Searing Totem is basically the one thing in the game that doesn't get its aggro reset when mobs do a "full aggro reset," which makes it both useful on some fights to give the tanks a little time to track down the mob and build some threat, and horribly bad on fights where you don't want it running after a totem.
#7679SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ortis
Thanks guys. I am switching my main to an enhancement shaman as my guild currently raids with 0 shaman. This forum has been a huge help.
#7680SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
There are a number of mobs in Zul'Aman that split in two...if the tank isn't ready, or lags a bit, it's really easy to lose the split mob and with it a healer or two. Last night even Consecrate wasn't keeping the bears with their riders.

It is the only time I've ever found a use for the Stoneclaw totem. Dropped at 21%, every time the split mob went for the totem and remained within taunting distance of the tank.
#7681SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genshoku
With the sunwell being constantly fubard my guild has been hopping into the t5 instances and even gruul's for more DSTs in the past couple weeks since after the t6 clear we're all bored out of our minds. I happened to pick up a Shoulderpads of the Stranger this week and as far as my personal AEP goes, it's significantly higher depending on party makeup/buffs and my weapon choice. I tested it in raid and as a draenei shaman without any other expertise gear the .50% reduced dodge equated to somewhere around .7% over about 4 hours in hyjal and bt last night compared with the Hidden Predator shoulderpads last week.

The simulator indicates an approximate 3 dps increase with stranger over predator; real time testing indicates that they equate to about the same dps on trash with the leather giving a slight increase on bosses (10 dps average over 8 bosses). I've ran sims with and without kings/might/lotp and they all indicate the same pattern.

My question is this - at what level of expertise does the curve in dps gain justify equipping expertise at the loss of some crit? I.e. the curve stays level for a certain amount of expertise, starts gaining slope and hits a point where the slope is maximized, what is this point when the possible loss of crit is taken into account?
#7682SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
What +hit do you assume in those calculations? The math in the OP assumes 15% total (talents + ~95 rating, which is admittedly a bit low for a raiding shaman but possibly not low for early Kara-level), and comes out with < 98% UR uptime and 57% flurry uptime with 30% crit. (Though the Flurry math leaves out other sources of crits, like Windfury and Stormstrike, so it will actually be higher. I don't have a good way to model it at work, but I can't imagine it would be over 20% higher with 10% less crit chance by adding WF and SS.) Don't want to say you're absolutely wrong, but those uptimes seem unreasonably high for very low crit% without some math to back it up.
Leaving out WF and SS crits is a big, big weakness. Supposing you get 1 SS every 10 sec and 2 WF procs every 10 sec you are missing 2+2+2=6 crit chances. With 25% crit you would expect 1.5 Flurry refreshes, which could easily be another 3 sec of Flurry uptime. Remember we are talking every 10 seconds, so that's an extra 30% of Flurry uptime.

I'm using 15% hit and Yo's simulator, which tracks UR uptime on the main tab and Flurry uptime on the Forensic report tab. (Technically, it is "% strikes hasted by Flurry" which is slightly different from Flurry uptime, but I would feel that it is an equally useful measure.)
Originally Posted by Genshoku
My question is this - at what level of expertise does the curve in dps gain justify equipping expertise at the loss of some crit? I.e. the curve stays level for a certain amount of expertise, starts gaining slope and hits a point where the slope is maximized, what is this point when the possible loss of crit is taken into account?
Oh my gahhh.....
This question is meaningless without any parameters. Expertise is always worth giving up crit for, if it's enough expertise and little enough crit. Expertise is never worth giving up crit for, if it's a little bit of expertise and tons of crit. Use the simulator, use the EP numbers it spits out, and you won't have to ask these types of questions.
#7683SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Rob
Flurry uptime is great for your DPS, but doesn't provide any other benefit besides possibly better mana regen during SR
I seem to recall SR being a PPM buff. So any variation of 2h/DW and speed is irrelevant.
#7684SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mox
Originally Posted by Raut
I seem to recall SR being a PPM buff. So any variation of 2h/DW and speed is irrelevant.
I'd like to see some evidence of this.... sometimes when I use it I get 1k mana back and other times 7k, if it was PPM I would think it'd be alot less streaky.
#7685SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
This was a claim first made by Snorkle on Blizz EU shaman forums, IIRC. He claimed he had tested this over a long time and concluded this.
#7686SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Mox
I'd like to see some evidence of this.... sometimes when I use it I get 1k mana back and other times 7k, if it was PPM I would think it'd be alot less streaky.
I did some data parses of some shaman tests of SR and found that it was a chance on hit. However, my analyses weren't that great (though Oggie did a great job of gathering the data). So, I thought it was a flat chance on hit.

However, snorkle did longer tests and came to pretty convincing conclusions about it being PPM. His tests looked good enough that I didn't feel that it was justified to spend the time to confirm or deny - I've taken it for granted since then that it is indeed a PPM effect.

But, as always, blasted lands is --> that way if anyone feels bored and wants to do some testing for further confirmation or a possible denial :-)
#7687SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tri∆ngle
@Yo!
hello, i'm a long-time lurker of this thread, but this is the first post i've made.
since enh/ele was found to do comparable dps to enh/resto, i've been running with a 16/45 spec, and it works out pretty nicely. however, when running the simulator, if you have 0/3 or 3/3 elemental devestation, everything transpires exactly as you'd expect, but if you put in 1/3 or 2/3 (i currently have 1/3), then your crit chance drops to basically 0, you have 0 UR uptime, and your dps goes down by around 35-40%. i even tried adding an extra 0 to my crit chance, and at 300% crit, i have a UR uptime of 2% :[

for now i've just been testing with 0/3 elemental devestation, but i just thought i should make this bug known.

also, awesome simulator Yo!, mega-useful, despite this small discrepency :]
#7688SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Rob
Leaving out WF and SS crits is a big, big weakness. Supposing you get 1 SS every 10 sec and 2 WF procs every 10 sec you are missing 2+2+2=6 crit chances. With 25% crit you would expect 1.5 Flurry refreshes, which could easily be another 3 sec of Flurry uptime. Remember we are talking every 10 seconds, so that's an extra 30% of Flurry uptime.
The equation also ignores that three charges of Flurry will sometimes haste more than three swings. The flurry uptime equation is really only useful for showing the difference in UR uptime between DW/2h, and using it for anything else will just mislead you.

On a related note, does each hand roll independantly to crit with SS? It seems unlikely that they'd use the same hit roll (as they appear to) and different crit roles, but I also don't remember consistantly getting double SS crits.
#7689SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Well, we operate under the assumption that SS is a "two-roll" attack. Technically, it is a "three-roll" attack in that each hand has independent crit rolls.
#7690SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Well, apparently the healing debuff has been removed from Flametongue now, according to mmo-champion and worldofraids. I wonder if they're just abandoning the idea, or if it will be reintroduced in some way again before the patch is released.
#7691SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
I haven't seen the post myself, but apparently Kalgan directly stated that it was intentionally taken out, according to several people on the Blizzard forums.
#7692SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Disquette
I haven't seen the post myself, but apparently Kalgan directly stated that it was intentionally taken out, according to several people on the Blizzard forums.
WoW BlueTracker: Lifetap change reverted
Originally Posted by Kalgan
Yes the flametongue revert was intentional. After putting it through its paces we felt like we'd gone too far on that one.
As an aside, there is some interesting info in there on the under-/over-representation of certain classes at 1850+ and 2200+ ratings, for each bracket. Take it with a grain of salt though, it's based on the total number of max-level characters of each class, so classes with lots of max-level characters (Warrior) are "under-represented" even though they are found on many arena teams.
#7693SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Genshoku
Originally Posted by Rob
Oh my gahhh.....
This question is meaningless without any parameters. Expertise is always worth giving up crit for, if it's enough expertise and little enough crit. Expertise is never worth giving up crit for, if it's a little bit of expertise and tons of crit. Use the simulator, use the EP numbers it spits out, and you won't have to ask these types of questions.
It's a legitimate question and an "I don't know if anyone's taken the time to do this" would have sufficed instead of telling me to go do it.

My point in asking was to not waste 5 hours of plugging numbers into spreadsheets and then simulating 10 different sets of stats and gear if someone had already done it and was willing to share what the median line there is. You can't just play with numbers in the simulator and get correct dps, you have to take into account every piece of gear and every stat change that you would gain the expertise from or the AEP values mean nothing.

If I have time over the next few days I'll try to model and graph something as a relation between Expertise AEP and dps throughput with the new t6 and shard of contempt. While I'm doing that, if anyone has input regarding the relationship or general comments about when expertise becomes optimal, regardless of effect on other stats, i'd appreciate it. (If you don't know, then don't waste your time typing an answer)
#7694SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Genshoku
It's a legitimate question and an "I don't know if anyone's taken the time to do this" would have sufficed instead of telling me to go do it.

My point in asking was to not waste 5 hours of plugging numbers into spreadsheets and then simulating 10 different sets of stats and gear if someone had already done it and was willing to share what the median line there is. You can't just play with numbers in the simulator and get correct dps, you have to take into account every piece of gear and every stat change that you would gain the expertise from or the AEP values mean nothing.

If I have time over the next few days I'll try to model and graph something as a relation between Expertise AEP and dps throughput with the new t6 and shard of contempt. While I'm doing that, if anyone has input regarding the relationship or general comments about when expertise becomes optimal, regardless of effect on other stats, i'd appreciate it. (If you don't know, then don't waste your time typing an answer)
But that is what you need to do. Expertise has most of correlation (sp?) with hit, but very little with crit (yellow use 2 roll system, so it has small effect). So in order to determine how much crit you can trade for expertise you will have to get your own values for them and then do the math. Furtheron expertise has steps opposed to continual (linear, exponental etc) nature of all other stats i believe. And like hit and crit it also has maximum value that can be achieved. After 2.4 that maximum is actually not so hard to achieve btw. All expertise after that maximum (normally by maximum here it is considered for dodge as we do not get parries behind) will only affect parry for some time before becoming totally useless.
#7695SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Easiest way to compare different style of gears is put it them to two different warcrafter sheets. Then put these stats to YO's. Take about 5minute and you can see your looks too. Don't try manually calculate AP relationships. Just sim it and see dps. Simple.
#7696SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
There are a number of mobs in Zul'Aman that split in two...if the tank isn't ready, or lags a bit, it's really easy to lose the split mob and with it a healer or two. Last night even Consecrate wasn't keeping the bears with their riders.

It is the only time I've ever found a use for the Stoneclaw totem. Dropped at 21%, every time the split mob went for the totem and remained within taunting distance of the tank.
There's a quest in Blade's Edge where you have to fight off waves of mobs that use only AoE attacks. By dropping stoneclaw, which is immune to AoE damage, the quest is trivialized. It's one of the quests near the "other" dark portal.

Also, the mobs in mechanar that toss aoe grenades all day are easily handled with stoneclaw.
#7697SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Disquette
I did some data parses of some shaman tests of SR and found that it was a chance on hit. However, my analyses weren't that great (though Oggie did a great job of gathering the data). So, I thought it was a flat chance on hit.

However, snorkle did longer tests and came to pretty convincing conclusions about it being PPM. His tests looked good enough that I didn't feel that it was justified to spend the time to confirm or deny - I've taken it for granted since then that it is indeed a PPM effect.

But, as always, blasted lands is --> that way if anyone feels bored and wants to do some testing for further confirmation or a possible denial :-)
Edit: I'm tired, and I'm not sure that the below stuff actually conveys my meaning: PPM or no, the proc rate is high enough that you still benefit more from multiple, faster weapons (as far as mana regen is concerned). I don't think I'll be swapping to 1.3 speed daggers any time soon for mana regen purposes, but hey, you never know.

If it is PPM, it's significantly more procs per minute than I'm able to hit with a slow 2H, since I get more than double the number of procs when using my DW weapons compared to a 2H. I haven't timed this out and taken exact data, but I'm getting back more than double the mana DW than I am 2H.

That would mean that, even if it is PPM, it's such a high number of procs per minute that you will still benefit greatly from using DW instead of 2H. Possibly worth swapping in 1.3 speed weapons (like Finkle's skinner) during raids if you're really low on mana? I remember doing this when 2.0 first came out, but I don't think it would be much of a benefit given how few mana problems I really have in current raids.

Last edited by Kahdrick : 03/06/08 at 7:55 AM.
#7698SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
I remember some testing I did long ago, when the taletn appeared for the first time.

With a very slow 2-hander (3.9 speed) it proced almost on each hit, while with a fast dagger (1.4 speed) it proced like one third of the hits, so it always seemed to me that it's a ppm with very high procrate (and of course as a ppm you will get twice as much procs when dual-wielding).

Well it was more than a year ago so its mechanism may have changed in between....
#7699SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
Also, the mobs in mechanar that toss aoe grenades all day are easily handled with stoneclaw.
I never thought of that. Seems to me on heroic the mighty Stoneclaw totem could only take two of their AoE blasts before melting, and chances are I'd still be close enough during that period to take splash damage.
#7700SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
That would mean that, even if it is PPM, it's such a high number of procs per minute that you will still benefit greatly from using DW instead of 2H. Possibly worth swapping in 1.3 speed weapons (like Finkle's skinner) during raids if you're really low on mana? I remember doing this when 2.0 first came out, but I don't think it would be much of a benefit given how few mana problems I really have in current raids.
Obviously if you dual wield, you have twice as many chances to proc. That has to do with the number of chances, not the speed of the weapons.

You won't gain anything from swapping in faster weapons. Indeed, you'd actually have LESS mana returned. Here's why:

Let's say it's 10 PPM. With a 2.6s weapon, you swing 23 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 43.4%. With a 1.3s weapon, you swing 46 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 21.7.

Let's assume a really nasty miss chance: the full 15%, plus 6.5% dodge. With two arms swinging, at 2.6s, you'd have 18 successes inside of the 30s window. With two arms at 1.3s, you'd have 36. In either case, you'd have an average of 7.8 successful swings.

However, in both cases you'd also have a chance to proc off Windfury and Stormstrike. Assuming WF every 5s, and SS every 10, this is an additional 18 (minus dodge, 16.8) chances to proc SR returns -- at the same rate as your autoattack swings! With 2.6s weapons, this is an additional 7.3 procs. With 1.3s weapons, this is an additional 3.65 procs.

In conclusion: when nothing is normalized, slow weapons are a good thing. Didn't you hear?!

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/06/08 at 12:53 PM.
#7701SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I never thought of that. Seems to me on heroic the mighty Stoneclaw totem could only take two of their AoE blasts before melting, and chances are I'd still be close enough during that period to take splash damage.
Kahdrick also claimed in his post that Stoneclaw Totem is immune to AOE damage (which I wasn't aware of), and if this is the case then the grenades would not kill the totem at all.
#7702SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
All totems are immune to AoE effects. Totem pets (Fire Elemental, Earth Elemental) are not because they're, well, pets and count as NPCs, but the actual totems themselves are still immune. The bombs are a ground AoE, so even though the little demon guys in Mech might be targeting the totem, they won't actually be able to damage it unless they run up to it and melee. Pretty ingenious, actually.
#7703SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Genshoku
If I have time over the next few days I'll try to model and graph something as a relation between Expertise AEP and dps throughput with the new t6 and shard of contempt. While I'm doing that, if anyone has input regarding the relationship or general comments about when expertise becomes optimal, regardless of effect on other stats, i'd appreciate it. (If you don't know, then don't waste your time typing an answer)
Well, your question didn't ask "does a graph between Expertise EP and DPS exist", it asked "at what point is Expertise good enough that I should give up crit for Expertise" which is pretty different and a dumb question. (The EP for crit and EP for expertise rating exist so that you can answer it yourself.) I still don't know what you are really looking to learn from this exercise. I can tell you what your graph will look like. Assuming you are increasing DPS by adding additional expertise rating, then expertise EP is going to be slightly negatively correlated with DPS until you reach the cap (93 rating IIRC); once you get to the expertise cap, expertise EP will drop to 0. If that assumption is wrong and you are increasing DPS by adding AP, then expertise EP is going to be slightly positively correlated with DPS. If you are increasing DPS by adding crit, then expertise EP is going to be slightly negatively correlated with DPS (hits granted by expertise can't crit).

Last edited by Rob : 03/06/08 at 1:33 PM.
#7704SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Ignoring on-hit procs for a moment, both Expertise and Crit Rating have roughly the same task -- altering the attack table. Theoretically, 1% dodge reduction should result in the same increase in damage as 1% increased crit, because unlike hit rating (which beyond 9% hit only affects autoattack), both affect autoattack, SS and WF.

This means that 16 ER should be roughly worth 22.08 Crit Rating in a raid situation, and 4 ER should be worth 5.52 CR. It's harder to compare 1 ER to 1 CR, because ER only counts in blocks of 3.96, but assuming blocks of 4, 1 ER = 1.38 CR.

Looking at my freshly simulated EP values (I have no ER and average about 34% crit in raids), ER is worth 2.87 EP, while CR is worth 2.06 EP. Solving for ER, 1 ER = 1.39 CR. The extra .01 we can either chock up to standard deviation, or to my many on-hit procs (Dragonstrike, Windfury, 2xMongoose).

When soloing mobs that can parry, the value of ER is doubled, and when fighting mobs that cannot dodge, such as casters, it is 0.
#7705SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Rob
I still don't know what you are really looking to learn from this exercise.
I generall dislike speaking for others, but in the interest of brevity. It looks obvious to me that Genshoku is hoping that by graphing expertise's benefits, He can tell us that when a "normal" shaman is at 18% chance to crit, crit rating has the same EP as expertise rating.

However, that's very easy to do in just a few minutes using the simulator. *edit* i went to the simulator and came up with 15% crit (no feral druid buff). At 15% crit with 2500 AP and no feral buff, expertise rating and critical strike rating had essentially equal EP values. So I monkied around some more with Yo!'s sim and changed hit to zero and 40%, naturally this caused hit value to jump up and down, but crit rating and expertise still remained pretty even. I did not play with the sim long enough to say something like, at 21% crit, crit rating never has a higher EP value than expertise.


According to http://elitistjerks.com/659225-post7535.html 91 expertise rating for non-axe-wielding-orcs. That post is just a correction of the wowwiki.com expertise rating explanation which used math showing 90 as the most you'd want. I'm not sure if it's important for Malan to include that number in the first post.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/06/08 at 2:18 PM.
#7706SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Incidentally, I would love to have final confirmation on what the dodge % is for l73 mobs.

The rogues here say 6.5%, which would necessitate 103 ER. Wowwiki says 5.6%, which would necessitate 91 ER.

I think part of the question here is that WWS rounds dodge % to an integer. Browsing random WWS parses for a shaman who I know has no expertise, I see it's usually 5 or 6% dodge. That doesn't help me ken the exact number.
#7707SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Hytoshu
EP Values for Set Bonuses

I'm currently working on a project that, when done, will give me the complete itemization stats for enhance shamans based off of the EP values for t5 thread. I ultimately find that the high end models will be incorrect because they take in t6. This is what I've found true so far using a basic model.
-------LEGGINGS----------

Gladiator's Linked Leggings

Vendor: PvP reward

Armor 758
Armor Type

Str 30
Stam 54
Int 25
Crit 36
Res 28

Estimated EP = 138

----------------------------------

Cyclone War-Kilt

Vendor: Leggings of the Fallen Champion

Armor 740
Armor Type

Str 35
Agi 35
Stam 52
Int 24
Mp5 10

Estimated EP = 147

----------------------------------

Merciless Gladiator's Linked Leggings

Vendor: PvP reward

Armor 835
Armor Type

Str 34
Stam 60
Int 29
Crit 40
res 31

Estimated EP = 154.8

----------------------------------

Forestwalker = Kilt

Drop: Mana Tombs (Nexus-Prince Shaffar)

Armor 459
Armor Type Leather

Str 33
Agi 26
Stam 24
Int 27
red socket
blue socket
blue socket
(+4 str)

Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 177.4

Socketed 1 x 8 str, 2 x 4str/6stam
+20 str/+12 stam
Estimated EP = 168.6

----------------------------------

Midnight Legguards

Drop: Slave Pens

Armor 305
Armor Type Leather

Stam 30
red socket
red socket
blue socket
(+4 hit)
Hit 17
Crit 27
Ap 64

Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 194.6

Socketed 2x 8 str, 4str/6stam
+20 str/+4 hit/+6 stam
Estimated EP = 191.4

-----------------------------------

Vengeful Gladiator's Linked Leggings

Vendor: Leggings of teh Vanquished Champion

Armor 817
Armor Type Mail

Str 38
Stam 67
Int 33
Hit 12
Crit 36
Res 36
ArmPen 84

Estimated EP = 195.92

----------------------------------

Cataclysm Legplates

Vendor: Leggings of the Vanquished Champion

Armor 817
Armor Type Mail

Str 41
Agi 32
Stam 58
Int 31
red socket
(+2 Agi)
Hit 21

Socketed with 8 str gem
+8 str/+2 Agi
Estimated EP = 205.2

----------------------------------

Void Reaver Greaves

Drop: Tempest Keep (Void Reaver)

Armor 787
Armor Type Mail

Agi 37
Stam 33
Int 24
red socket
yellow socket
blue socket
(+4 Agi)
AP 88

Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP 214.8

Socketed 8 str, 4 str/6 stam, 4 crit/4 str
+16 str/4 crit/6 stam
Estimated EP = 205.2

----------------------------------

Shifting Camouflage Pants

Vendor: 75 Badge of Justice

Armor 787
Armor Type: Mail

Agi 34
Stam 45
Int 30
Ap 90
ArmPen 175

Estimated EP = 207

-----------------------------------

Skulker's Greaves

Drop: Karazhan (Netherspite)

Armor 319
Armor Type: 319

Agi 32
Stam 28
red socket
red socket
blue socket
(+4 dodge)
Hit 28
AP 64

Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 220

----------------------------------

Skyshatter Pants

Vendor: Leggings of the Forgotten Protector

Armor 894
Armor Type: Mail

Str 46
Stam 67
Int 31
blue socket
(+2 str)
hit 21
Crit 39
Mp5 9

Socketed 8 str gems only
+8 str
Estimated EP = 226.2

-----------------------------------

Shallow-grave Trousers

Vendor: 75 Badges of Justice

Armor 353
Armor Type Leather

Agi 45
Stam 46
Haste 30
AP 92

Estimated EP = 226.4

------------------------------------

Scaled Greaves of the Marksman

Drop: Doom Lord Kazzak

Armor 740
Armor Type Mail

Agi 37
red socket
red socket
red socket
(+4 Agi)
Hit 16
Ap 76

Socketed 8 str gems only
+24 str/+4 agi
Estimated EP 233.2

----------------------------------

Shady Dealer's Pantaloons

Drop: Mount Hyjal (Azgalor)

Armor 388
Armor Type: Leather

Agi 50
Stam 61
AP 102
ArmPen 175

Estimated EP = 251

-----------------------------------

Leggings of Murderous Intent

Drop: Tempest Keep (Kael'thas Sunstrider)

Armor 380
Armor Type: Leather

Agi 45
Stam 31
Crit 37
AP 92

Estimated EP = 256

-----------------------------------

Bow-stitched Leggings

Drop: Mount Hyjal (Azgalor)

Armor 864
Armor Type Mail

Agi 42
Stam 28
Int 28
red socket
yellow socket
blue socket
(+4 crit)
Crit 20
AP 100

Socketed with 8 str gems only
+24 str
Estimated EP = 276.8

Socketed with 8 str, 4 crit/4 str, 4 str/6stam
+16 str/+8 crit/+6 stam
Estimated EP = 275.2

-------END EP CALC----------
If this is true then it would be wise if we can get a rough estimate for what the EP values of set bonuses are. These are just legs and maybe there is a significant upgrade among tier pieces other then leggings but if this holds true it would be greatly beneficial to know.

I'm not sure if they have already been calculated so to save myself time I figured I would ask first. Thanks for reading.

Last edited by Hytoshu : 03/06/08 at 3:28 PM.
#7708SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bruster
Could someone link a good WF mod please?

I was looking at the addons thread but couldn't reall find anything.
#7709SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
It has been said many times, and in the OP I believe, Enhancer, found on wowace, is probably the best WF time tracking mod available. (for both totem and self weapon imbues)
#7710SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Daler
If this is true then it would be wise if we can get a rough estimate for what the EP values of set bonuses are. These are just legs and maybe there is a significant upgrade among tier pieces other then leggings but if this holds true it would be greatly beneficial to know.

I'm not sure if they have already been calculated so to save myself time I figured I would ask first. Thanks for reading.
2t4: 12 Str * (EP value for Str) = EP value for 2t4
4t4: 6 DPS * (EP value for 1 DPS) = EP value for 4t4

2t5: 0
4t5: 5 * 15.76 * Flurry uptime = EP value for 4t5

2t6: 0
4t6: 70 EP

You'd be better off just using the sim as Rob suggests below, but there's a rough guide you can plug in your EP values into.

Last edited by Daler : 03/06/08 at 3:38 PM.
#7711SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Ignoring on-hit procs for a moment, both Expertise and Crit Rating have roughly the same task -- altering the attack table. Theoretically, 1% dodge reduction should result in the same increase in damage as 1% increased crit, because unlike hit rating (which beyond 9% hit only affects autoattack), both affect autoattack, SS and WF.

This means that 16 ER should be roughly worth 22.08 Crit Rating in a raid situation, and 4 ER should be worth 5.52 CR. It's harder to compare 1 ER to 1 CR, because ER only counts in blocks of 3.96, but assuming blocks of 4, 1 ER = 1.38 CR.
This neglects that critical strikes refresh the Flurry buff; apart from that, I can get behind it.
Originally Posted by Rapparee
It looks obvious to me that Genshoku is hoping that by graphing expertise's benefits, He can tell us that when a "normal" shaman is at 18% chance to crit, crit rating has the same EP as expertise rating.

However, that's very easy to do in just a few minutes using the simulator.
Which I guess is why I'm confused as to why a graph and everything is needed.
#7712SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Hytoshu
If this is true then it would be wise if we can get a rough estimate for what the EP values of set bonuses are. These are just legs and maybe there is a significant upgrade among tier pieces other then leggings but if this holds true it would be greatly beneficial to know.

I'm not sure if they have already been calculated so to save myself time I figured I would ask first. Thanks for reading.
Use Yo's sim, put in your desired stats without the set bonus, run and get a DPS number. Then enable the set bonus, get a DPS number, turn on "calculate EP weights" and note the number that's like "1 AP = 0.28 DPS". Take DPS2, subtract DPS1, and then divide by the DPS weight of AP to get the EP of the set bonus.
#7713SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hytoshu
Originally Posted by Rob
Use Yo's sim, put in your desired stats without the set bonus, run and get a DPS number. Then enable the set bonus, get a DPS number, turn on "calculate EP weights" and note the number that's like "1 AP = 0.28 DPS". Take DPS2, subtract DPS1, and then divide by the DPS weight of AP to get the EP of the set bonus.
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.

This is not as simple as subtracted derived values from itself and only taking in a set bonus. According to my calculations the change from tier to even the peice off of Kazzak is such a extraordinary upgrade that if you extrapolate it over 2 or 4 pieces the dps gain/loss can be extreme.
#7714SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Hytoshu
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.

This is not as simple as subtracted derived values from itself and only taking in a set bonus. According to my calculations the change from tier to even the peice off of Kazzak is such a extraordinary upgrade that if you extrapolate it over 2 or 4 pieces the dps gain/loss can be extreme.
Step 1) Make two warcrafter.net sheets, one with the 4 tier pieces, one with the replacement pieces in question.
Step 2) Run the sim with both and compare.
Step 3) ????
Step 4) Profit.
#7715SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I think part of the question here is that WWS rounds dodge % to an integer. Browsing random WWS parses for a shaman who I know has no expertise, I see it's usually 5 or 6% dodge. That doesn't help me ken the exact number.
Doesn't the WWS tell you the number of dodges/misses?
I found a warrior and his auto attack for the entire raid had the following columns:
Landed Norm Dot Crit Glanc Crush All Miss Miss Resist Block Parry Dodge
Nb 1843 1125 1319 718 270 87 59 124

landed = 1843
normal = 1125
dot was blank
Crit = 1319
Glance = 718 (glanc + norm = landed, or at least it should)
Crush was blank
all miss = 270
miss = 87
resist was blank
block was blank
parry = 59
dodge = 124 (miss+block+parry+dodge = all miss for melee type attacks, or at least it should)


However, you have to know the bosses abilities. For instance, don't use Teron Gorefiend, Rage Winterchill and other bosses that turn around to target people for secondary spell abilities. Or if you do, remind yourself that the dodge/parry rates on those bosses will likely be higher.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/06/08 at 3:53 PM.
#7716SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Hytoshu
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.
Err, you're obviously going to be wearing T5 if you have the T5 set bonus active, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that you'd use T5 gear as your base for the simulation. Obviously it's just an estimate, but so are all EP calculations by their very nature.

Sometimes I just see the obsession with "precise" results that many posters have as bordering on absurdity. It's not vital to know 100% accurate EP valuations for every single item, it's only necessary to know which item is "better". And yes, [Insidious Bands] may be 2 EP better than [Deadly Cuffs] but you are never going to see that translate into an actual DPS increase in a raid, the difference is too small and our DPS is too random in nature. Whatever though, I'll just start ignoring these posts instead of trying to sway people over to my PoV.
#7717SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Hytoshu
That logic is ultimately flawed though because you're assuming you are using the same stats for both. If you do not use tier and instead use an item with a much higher EP value then you will see gains. In order to have any sort of accuracy you will have to compute the EP value of the set bonus per each tier and take in group build. If there is an estimated EP value for the set bonus you can add it to the EP value of the two or 4 peices you are comparing to gear which is not tier.
There was a big discussion several pages ago where Malan and others were talking about the fact that while EP values do change a little as you move from tier to tier, the differences between gear ilvl changes significantly more, making the EP value fluctuations meaningless except for a few specific items, notably ones with armor pen and haste. The net result was that you end up with the same relative order for almost every piece of gear available (obviously excepting those already mentioned.)

Point being, while you may find a value difference of a few EP for the different set bonuses as you change gear levels, I highly doubt there will be any practical application for that information, given that the difference in total EP for gear between tiers will be far greater than the EP difference of set bonuses evaluated at the different levels. If a set bonus is so amazing that you'd want to hold onto it for longer than the other gear at its level, like 3 pc Ten Storms, or rogue 2 pc T4, it would be pretty clear, and the point at which it's safe to get rid of it will also be pretty clear. If it's not, then you're talking about a low-single-digit EP difference like Rob mentioned, and at that point it boils down to personal preference.

In any case, it's going to be safer for people to just run the sim with their gear options to decide if a set bonus is worth breaking. If you really want to be anal about having an exact EP assignment for the bonuses, you'd have to consider an absurd amount of gear combinations... just let people figure it out on their own, in my opinion.
#7718SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Daler
2t4: 12 Str * (EP value for Str) = EP value for 2t4
4t4: 6 DPS * (EP value for 1 DPS) = EP value for 4t4

2t5: 0
4t5: 5 * 15.76 * Flurry uptime = EP value for 4t5

2t6: 0
4t6: 70 EP

You'd be better off just using the sim as Rob suggests below, but there's a rough guide you can plug in your EP values into.
AS for the 2t4 bonus, people seem to often get it wrong. You gain 12 strength to the BASE amount, but after the Enhancing Totems talent it becomes 14 (very easy to check).
#7719SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Dragonstrike PPM

I seem to remember some talk about the Dragonstrike uptime some time ago, someone wanted some parses for it I think. I just got ProcWatch and ran it through tonights raid and ended up with a PPM of ~1.

WWS Loading...



I didn't use any haste pots this run, so the haste proc should only be from the Dragonstrike. I should be logged out in my PVE gear if that matters.

I'd like to help by gathering parses, but I'm not entirely sure what it is you want to test. The blasted lands mobs are too low level and will skew the results due to the level difference, am I right? Should I force a tank and a healer to come with me to Halaa to just swing on a guard for a given amount of time without WF and SS, with SS and with SS and WF? How long should the parses be?

I'm sorry if I missed the testing of this already.
#7720SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Obviously if you dual wield, you have twice as many chances to proc. That has to do with the number of chances, not the speed of the weapons.

You won't gain anything from swapping in faster weapons. Indeed, you'd actually have LESS mana returned. Here's why:

Let's say it's 10 PPM. With a 2.6s weapon, you swing 23 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 43.4%. With a 1.3s weapon, you swing 46 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 21.7.

Let's assume a really nasty miss chance: the full 15%, plus 6.5% dodge. With two arms swinging, at 2.6s, you'd have 18 successes inside of the 30s window. With two arms at 1.3s, you'd have 36. In either case, you'd have an average of 7.8 successful swings.

However, in both cases you'd also have a chance to proc off Windfury and Stormstrike. Assuming WF every 5s, and SS every 10, this is an additional 18 (minus dodge, 16.8) chances to proc SR returns -- at the same rate as your autoattack swings! With 2.6s weapons, this is an additional 7.3 procs. With 1.3s weapons, this is an additional 3.65 procs.

In conclusion: when nothing is normalized, slow weapons are a good thing. Didn't you hear?!
I guess I'm confused about the PPM mechanic then. You're saying it's not affected by haste, so that if I have a item with 20 PPM, and 100% haste, it's effectively 40 PPM? And also that Procs per minute isn't capped by the PPM rate, thereby limiting additional procs from extra attacks due to WF and SS?

I thought the whole difference between the flat % chance on hit and the PPM mechanic was that % on hit wasn't normalized, but PPM was. Thus, if you had a 1% chance on hit proc on a .6 speed weapon, with a 99% miss rate, on that one hit you got per minute (on average), you would have a 1% chance to proc the effect, but that if you had a 1 PPM proc on that same weapon, you'd have a 100% chance to proc on that one hit per minute (theoretically).

From that assumption, if you take your scenario, the additional SS and WF hits would not increase the number of procs at all, unless there were so many procs available per minute (say, 60 PPM), that you were already proccing at 100%. And if you've got a nearly 100% proc rate, wouldn't faster weapons allow you to access more of those 60 PPM?

To take your math, if SR is 40 PPM, With a 2.6s weapon, you swing 23 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 100%. With a 1.3s weapon, you swing 46 times a minute. Your chance per hit would be 87.0%.

Let's assume a really nasty miss chance: the full 15%, plus 6.5% dodge. With two arms swinging, at 2.6s, you'd have 18 successes inside of the 30s window. With two arms at 1.3s, you'd have 36. With 2.6, you'd have an average of 18 successful swings, but with 1.3s, you'd have 31.

Since neither of these are up to 30, we can still get additional procs from WF and SS. Assuming WF every 5s, and SS every 10, this is an additional 18 (minus dodge, 16.8) chances to proc SR returns -- at the same rate as your autoattack swings! With 2.6s weapons, this is an additional 17 procs (I'm rounding, obviously) which would net you a total of 35. With 1.3s weapons, this is an additional 15 procs, which would break the maximum PPM and leave you at 40 (or, if your understanding of the PPM mechanic is correct, would leave you at 46).

With higher PPM rates, faster weapons provide a clear advantage over slower ones.

Regardless, your dps would suffer, but since SR is being reduced to only a 15 second duration, it might be worth it.

Can anyone clarify if I'm a moron when it comes to PPM mechanics?
#7721SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.

The bias towards slow weapons shows up when you consider that instant attacks like SS and WF can also proc these effects and as far as I know(please correct me if this is wrong) their chance to proc is based on the weapons adjusted chance to proc. so in the case of a 3.0 weapon each SS and WF hit have a 5% chance to proc the 1 ppm effect. A 1.0 speed weapon would only have 1.67% chance to proc the same effect on each attack including SS and WF. So although their white hits should result in the same number of procs, the higher chance on special attacks for the slow weapon skews the results in favor of it.
#7722SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Question: How much of a mana pool do enhance shamans need to be effective in BT/Hyjal raids?

I myself am currently sitting at 6k, but I am seeing that the author of this original thread + countless others are barely pushing 5k mana.
#7723SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Sebudai
5.5k to 6k unbuffed is a comfortable amount I think. With JoW you could probably get away with a lot less. There are some encounters where it's just not realistic for the paladin to keep it up though.
#7724SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shocktherapy
I got two questions for the community.
I was planning on buying the two new fistweapons that's purchasable with badgets in 2.4 since they seem very good. I'm having second thoughts now though cause since I'm an Orc would it actually be any point since they're pretty fast, and I'd lose the expertise bonus of wielding two axes? Would it be better to stick with my Wicked Edge of Planes and pick up Rising Tide in the offhand. Would the gain of a few dps on the new weapons actually win over two slower axes?

The second question is about Executioner enchant. My guild has cleared Hyjal and are currently working our way through BT, and as I understand it Executioner gets better the more actual Armor Penetration you have passively on your gear. I've currently got roughly 650 passive Armor Penetration, but thats mostly from my ZA and PvP gear. The more I gear up in Hyjal/BT the less Armor Penetration I'm gonna have. Would Executioner still be the best Main Hand enchant to wield?

Thanks in advance.
#7725SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hodor
Shocktherapy, use the Simulator. Thats what it is there for. Input your values with the different gear, and see which one gets a higher DPS number.



About the PPM thing. This is how I understand it (using unrealistically extreme examples, that should however get the point across):

Lets say you have a 60.0 speed weapon and a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 100% chance to proc per hit.
Now, lets say you have a 6.0 speed weapon and still a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 10% chance to proc per hit.

Now, assuming you have only white attacks, the 60.0 and the 6.0 speed weapons will have the same result.

However, if you have additional special attacks that can also proc, the situation changes.

Lets say you have one special attack every 6 seconds (10 in one Minute).

With the 60.0 speed weapon, this means you will have 1 proc from the white attacks plus an additional 10 procs from the special attacks. A total of 11 procs.

With the 6.0 speed weapon, you still have 1 proc from the white attacks, but now you have only a single additional proc from the special attacks, because your attacks only have a 10% proc chance. This means you only have 2 procs.

In short, slow weapons = more procs = better.
#7726SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
Shocktherapy:
1. YO's sim tell answer to you.
2. YO's sim tell answer to you.

Edit: too slow.
#7727SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Bellante
Originally Posted by Shocktherapy
I got two questions for the community.
I was planning on buying the two new fistweapons that's purchasable with badgets in 2.4 since they seem very good. I'm having second thoughts now though cause since I'm an Orc would it actually be any point since they're pretty fast, and I'd lose the expertise bonus of wielding two axes? Would it be better to stick with my Wicked Edge of Planes and pick up Rising Tide in the offhand. Would the gain of a few dps on the new weapons actually win over two slower axes?

The second question is about Executioner enchant. My guild has cleared Hyjal and are currently working our way through BT, and as I understand it Executioner gets better the more actual Armor Penetration you have passively on your gear. I've currently got roughly 650 passive Armor Penetration, but thats mostly from my ZA and PvP gear. The more I gear up in Hyjal/BT the less Armor Penetration I'm gonna have. Would Executioner still be the best Main Hand enchant to wield?

Thanks in advance.
The number of daily questions in this thread that can be answered with "just read the OP and learn to use yo!'s simulator" are getting sickening. Funny thing is, often the same people complain that the thread is over 300 pages long.

In short, use yo's simulator, check it all out with different gear combinations and enough hours (dont check EP calculations if you're just checking what gives most dps) of hack and slash.

I personally did some runs of the new badge weapons and found that swapping e.g. the main hand for my talon of the phoenix as mh (changed to syphon since), rising tide as oh, netted me a drop in dps.

You can do similar checks of weapon enchants. Now shoo.
#7728SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Morelis
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.

The bias towards slow weapons shows up when you consider that instant attacks like SS and WF can also proc these effects and as far as I know(please correct me if this is wrong) their chance to proc is based on the weapons adjusted chance to proc. so in the case of a 3.0 weapon each SS and WF hit have a 5% chance to proc the 1 ppm effect. A 1.0 speed weapon would only have 1.67% chance to proc the same effect on each attack including SS and WF. So although their white hits should result in the same number of procs, the higher chance on special attacks for the slow weapon skews the results in favor of it.
So if flurry is up, I have a smaller chance of WF proccing a PPM effect than if flurry is not up? I'm trying to make sure I get the gist of what you're saying. Also, is the PPM proc % recalculated when your weapon speed changes? Or will casting SR when you have 2.6 weapon speed lock in that %, even if you later - but during the duration of the buff - increase weapon speed, say, with flurry or bloodlust/heroism?

Originally Posted by Hodor
About the PPM thing. This is how I understand it (using unrealistically extreme examples, that should however get the point across):

Lets say you have a 60.0 speed weapon and a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 100% chance to proc per hit.
Now, lets say you have a 6.0 speed weapon and still a 1 PPM proc. This means you have a 10% chance to proc per hit.

Now, assuming you have only white attacks, the 60.0 and the 6.0 speed weapons will have the same result.

However, if you have additional special attacks that can also proc, the situation changes.

Lets say you have one special attack every 6 seconds (10 in one Minute).

With the 60.0 speed weapon, this means you will have 1 proc from the white attacks plus an additional 10 procs from the special attacks. A total of 11 procs.

With the 6.0 speed weapon, you still have 1 proc from the white attacks, but now you have only a single additional proc from the special attacks, because your attacks only have a 10% proc chance. This means you only have 2 procs.

In short, slow weapons = more procs = better.
Okay, so I get that slow weapons = more procs from instant attacks, and that instant attacks don't figure in to the PPM's proc % calculation, but isn't there still a possibility that the PPM rate could be so high as to give more procs on faster weapons? Using extreme examples, if an item is 60 PPM, using a 60.0 speed weapon will generate 1 proc, and using a 1.0 speed weapon will generate 60 procs. Add in as many instant attacks as you like, and you'll still get 100% proc rates from both speeds of weapon.

I suppose it boils down to: What's the PPM of SR? it seems really high to me, I proc on almost every hit with my 2.6 speed weapons.
#7729SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Imabug
I do have a question for my Shaman's mainhand: Currently, I've been using Fool's Bane in my mainhand on my Shaman, but I do have a Bladefist sitting in my bags currently. Normally, I'd run a sim of both, but there's a problem - How would I evaluate the Bladefist's Haste buff? Especially in a 'stop and go' situation? Since it's a PPM buff, not a percentile, the more downtime, obviously, the more valuable. But if I wanted to test between the two for a Void Reaver fight, for example, how would I judge it?

I thought for a while to judge it as a 1 PPM buff with the 180 Haste rating and listing it as +30 on the sim (Despite what WoWhead comments say, I haven't ever gotten more than 2 proc's in a minute, and that's EXTREMELY rare), but I wans't sure if that really would be viable, seeing as how the 180 Haste for 10 seconds might not really equal 30 constant, due to how it would affect my weapon speed, and if Mongoose went off at the same time.

Can anyone offer me an idea on how to 'sort of' estimate the Bladefist in the sim? Or do you think it would be perfectly acceptable to put in the 30 haste rating instead, without worrying about the windfury timer? Thanks!
#7730SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
So if flurry is up, I have a smaller chance of WF proccing a PPM effect than if flurry is not up? I'm trying to make sure I get the gist of what you're saying. Also, is the PPM proc % recalculated when your weapon speed changes? Or will casting SR when you have 2.6 weapon speed lock in that %, even if you later - but during the duration of the buff - increase weapon speed, say, with flurry or bloodlust/heroism?
Back when haste was still new and exciting I spent some time testing proc uptimes with lots of haste+flurry/no haste+flurry/no haste no flurry, and found that it didn't seem to make any difference. I was using a single mongoose enchant and over a bunch of 30min runs with many combinations of gear I always had consistent uptime around 50%. I can't say with certainty that it works this way but it sure seems to. As to how often the chance to proc is adjusted I can't say, it would seem logical to do it for every swing but maybe that would be too expensive to calculate, someone would need to do a lot of testing to know for sure.
#7731SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zoya
I have a question that i hope some of you might help me with.

I have two chestpieces and i cant figure out what to use.

I have the badge druid chestpiece Vestment of hibernation
I also have the mail chestpiece from Jan'alai Arrow-fall Chestguard

Do i pick haste over armor penetration? Or the other way around? With kings i can imagine the druid chestpiece is better. Also i realise that haste might have a negative influance on my windfury.
#7732SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Zoya
I have a question that i hope some of you might help me with.

I have two chestpieces and i cant figure out what to use.

I have the badge druid chestpiece Vestment of hibernation
I also have the mail chestpiece from Jan'alai Arrow-fall Chestguard

Do i pick haste over armor penetration? Or the other way around? With kings i can imagine the druid chestpiece is better. Also i realise that haste might have a negative influance on my windfury.
Read the OP. Use Yo's sim. These questions really shouldn't be coming up in the thread if you've even read the first post.
#7733SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Wundorn
Clarifying meaning of PPMs

Originally Posted by Morelis
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.
I was going to say that this was wrong, but then I recalled that I learned what I "know" from the WoW Forums, which are not the most reliable source of info. Nevertheless, here's what I think is true. It would be great if someone could issue an authoritative statement on this. (There's nothing in the OP I can see, certainly not in sec 3.1.3 = haste.)

PPM %ages DO NOT CHANGE when a weapon is hasted. That means that if you have a 1PPM weapon enchant, and you are hasted 30% by flurry and another 3.33% by passive haste, your will attack with your weapon 33% more often AND YOU WILL PROC 33% MORE OFTEN, or 1.33PPM.

There is another misconception a few posts down from the one I quoted, and I'm considerably more confident saying it's wrong. Discontinuous fights DO NOT increase the value of PPMs because they don't make procs more likely. If you hit a mob at time=1 sec with your 1PPM weapon, and then hit it again at time=61 seconds, you don't get a guaranteed proc. Each hit is totally random. (Except of course for the hidden CD, which makes the probability of procing 0 until it expires.)
#7734SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Wundorn
I was going to say that this was wrong, but then I recalled that I learned what I "know" from the WoW Forums, which are not the most reliable source of info. Nevertheless, here's what I think is true. It would be great if someone could issue an authoritative statement on this. (There's nothing in the OP I can see, certainly not in sec 3.1.3 = haste.)

PPM %ages DO NOT CHANGE when a weapon is hasted. That means that if you have a 1PPM weapon enchant, and you are hasted 30% by flurry and another 3.33% by passive haste, your will attack with your weapon 33% more often AND YOU WILL PROC 33% MORE OFTEN, or 1.33PPM.

There is another misconception a few posts down from the one I quoted, and I'm considerably more confident saying it's wrong. Discontinuous fights DO NOT increase the value of PPMs because they don't make procs more likely. If you hit a mob at time=1 sec with your 1PPM weapon, and then hit it again at time=61 seconds, you don't get a guaranteed proc. Each hit is totally random. (Except of course for the hidden CD, which makes the probability of procing 0 until it expires.)
I haven't followed this for a while, but I think the consensus from a few months ago in a thread here on EJ.com is that old world enchants act the way you describe (crusader is a good example) - they'll proc more with flurry. On the other hand, new world enchants (mongoose) seems to be based on current weapon speed, as opposed to item-listed weapon speed, so flurry wouldn't change mongoose's rate at all.

Man, I can't find that thread, so I can't be sure if my memory is right.
#7735SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Pitbuller
http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t15553-p...chanics_haste/
#7736SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I have assurances from Boethius that the Theorycraft Think Tank (the wiki project here) will be opening within 1-2 weeks, at which point we'll shut down this thread and there can just be an "Enhancement Shaman (I don't know how to play) Help Me Please" thread for the random questions. Over in the wiki I have moderation rights on the article so I'll be able to delete anything not directly related to adding new info to the article itself.

ie, the article's discussion is to revolve around the article only not discussions in general.

Heck maybe someone can start the "I don't know how to play an Enhance Shaman" thread now just to get the repetitive questions out of this one.
#7737SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Thanks much Pitbuller, that's the thread I was thinking of.
#7738SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Malan
Heck maybe someone can start the "I don't know how to play an Enhance Shaman" thread now just to get the repetitive questions out of this one.
I thought about that, but really, how many times is the answer anything other than "use Yo's simulator"?

Maybe we should just make an enh help thread that's just a how-to for Yo's simulator. As silly as that sounds to me, it's abundantly clear that a lot of people don't know how.
#7739SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ragga
Mind me asking Malan, why can't this thread just be moderated? Sure there is a lot of helpful information here, but then again the same questions being asked over and over are tiring, but is it really a reason to create a new place for discussion?

About the "use Yo's simulator" thread, people will always be lazy, sadly, its easier to make a stupid post then actually try figuring something out on your own.
#7740SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Daler
I thought about that, but really, how many times is the answer anything other than "use Yo's simulator"?

Maybe we should just make an enh help thread that's just a how-to for Yo's simulator. As silly as that sounds to me, it's abundantly clear that a lot of people don't know how.
That's a very good point, but I think instead of including it as a separate thread, it should be part of the OP in the more general "How do I play an enh shaman" thread. It's a pretty straightforward tool, and there's a lot of FAQ-type information included below it if I remember correctly, but a couple quick paragraphs on how to use it or some bullets on what to include and how might help. Similarly, include links to sites like Loot Rank or MaxDPS (what do people even use these days? I just use the sim and personal judgment).

I know a lot of this is already in the OP here, but it requires people to dig through the quite daunting post. While a lot of us love it and probably could recite most of it from memory, more casual players who are just looking for gear advice end up turning their brains off by the time they get to the 3-dimensional plot in section 1.1.1. I don't blame them--that's not what they're here for. If we don't want to deal with those kinds of questions in this thread, having the How-To thread will help a lot, I think.

(Also, Malan, I have to say that splitting off the theory into another thread/area is possibly the best news I've heard in weeks. Cheers!)
#7741SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by ragga
Mind me asking Malan, why can't this thread just be moderated? Sure there is a lot of helpful information here, but then again the same questions being asked over and over are tiring, but is it really a reason to create a new place for discussion?
The wiki has a special user group associated with it and has a special purpose - its not there to generate discussion, its there to serve as a resource for confirmed mechanics. I'm in the Editor user group there so I have pruning rights. The idea is that discussion about the article itself takes place in the wiki thread - "hey this is wrong" or "add a correction here" but that general discussion "I don't understand why I don't need +Hit!!!!!" takes place in the normal area of the forums.

[e] Shit. Someone a few days ago had posted something about "hey add this to the stormstrike section" I think it was rob, but I totally lost track of what I was supposed to add.
#7742SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
What is your mean DPS on Gorefiend?

I've obtained perhaps 1/2 of my T6 set, and I'm having trouble pushing my DPS (minus searing totem) over 1400.

I noticed last time, I had a rather large % of white damage (51%). I don't know many shaman to push white damage so high, and I am not sure it's good.

Kwatee - WWS

Malan commented on his dropping crit while gearing T6, and I have dropped quite a bit and picked up a great deal of haste, but i never expected my white DPS to be > 50%.

Either way, a crit percentage < 40% after buffs for me is dismal, and my miss rate seems high as well.

I'm hoping to grab Illidan's helm, and S3 weapons soon. the sim shows them being massive upgrades, but I hate being stuck at this 1400 shelf.

If anyone does see something that I'm missing (other than the fact my helm is garbage, I had to socked my vengeful for PvP), shout. I'm aware I'm losing a bit of my shock DPS from my twisting, but i would think the agi would fill in that gap.

P.S. If your spring break starts today, have a good one!
#7743SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Malan
[e] Shit. Someone a few days ago had posted something about "hey add this to the stormstrike section" I think it was rob, but I totally lost track of what I was supposed to add.
I believe this is what you're looking for:
http://elitistjerks.com/662066-post7620.html
#7744SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
Perhaps instead of saying SS can proc WF, it would be best to explain that yellow attacks can proc WF, but yellow attacks cannot proc WF totem.
#7745SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
That's not true either since Heroic Strike is a yellow attack but can proc WF because its a next-attack special. If people think we're talking about Windfury Totem in this thread/article, they're dumb.
#7746SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I was unaware that heroic strike could proc WF totem actually.

Egg on my face there.

Either way, to not know that stormstrike can proc WF probably equally ignorant.

And we have been known to talk about WF totem in this thread in response to rogues/warriors considering their theorycraft threads include very little information about how it functions.

It has been modified at least once.
#7747SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Rapparee
However, you have to know the bosses abilities. For instance, don't use Teron Gorefiend, Rage Winterchill and other bosses that turn around to target people for secondary spell abilities. Or if you do, remind yourself that the dodge/parry rates on those bosses will likely be higher.
1) Stats for an entire raid are no good, because it will include attacks on mobs that are not level 73. You can only look at bosses, and even still bosses that don't summon "lesser" mobs.

2) Turning mobs shouldn't have any effect on the dodge rate -- Parry doesn't push dodge off the attack table, it pushes hit off the attack table. Casting, on the other hand, will affect dodge percentages as casting mobs don't dodge while casting.

In conclusion, I need a good, long, tank n' spank fight. I have some stats from Nalorakk on Tuesday, I just need to up them to WWS.

Originally Posted by Morelis
My understanding on ppm mechanics is that they're applied as a % chance on hit based on current weapon speed. As your weapon speed changes the % chance to proc the ppm effect also changes. For an example lets say you have a trinket with some effect that is intended to be 1 ppm, with a single 3.0 weapon it would have 5% chance to proc on each hit, if you gain a bunch of haste and your weapon drops to 2.0 speed the chance to proc drops to 3.33% per swing.
This may be -- but I'm guessing, and it should be easy to test, that the PPM calculations don't take stormstrike or windfury into consideration, which means that with a relatively static number chances from WF and SS hits, a higher chance, and therefore a lower speed, would be preferred.

However, to your point: if PPM mechanics ARE based on current weapon speed (which, again, should be easy to test), then this means you'll return more mana from SR if you proc it when you aren't affected by a haste proc, e.g. Bloodlust, Berzerking, etc.

You can't trust simulations to answer these questions, so if anybody has any in-game data to confirm the mechanic I'd appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Imabug
I do have a question for my Shaman's mainhand: Currently, I've been using Fool's Bane in my mainhand on my Shaman, but I do have a Bladefist sitting in my bags currently. Normally, I'd run a sim of both, but there's a problem - How would I evaluate the Bladefist's Haste buff?
I always considered the Bladefist to be a poor man's Drakefist Hammer, so just select the "Dragonstrike" main hand option. The difference is maybe 32 haste rating when the proc goes off, which shouldn't be more than 1 dps.

It's almost guaranteed you'll do more dps with the Bladefist main handed and the Fool's Bane off.
#7748SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
1) Stats for an entire raid are no good, because it will include attacks on mobs that are not level 73. You can only look at bosses, and even still bosses that don't summon "lesser" mobs.

2) Turning mobs shouldn't have any effect on the dodge rate -- Parry doesn't push dodge off the attack table, it pushes hit off the attack table. Casting, on the other hand, will affect dodge percentages as casting mobs don't dodge while casting.
Only sort of true Toots.
The WWS tool for boss fights only lists your attacks per enemy, so even if the boss summons lesser adds... i.e. Solarian, you can still use that parse if you're using the WWS information.
I listed an entire raid's worth of detail to show that the raw number of hits, dodges, parries are available from the tool. So some adventurous type could go through their raid's backlog of boss fights and add up all the non-expertise wearer's values of hits/dodges/parries. This exercise is more than I have time for today, especially since our guild didn't pay our WWS bill and now we've got just one left online.

Your point numbered 2 is good. I totally forgot to mention those details.

Several people agree with TootsHepcat that bosses, while casting, can not dodge. Striking my contrary remarks.
Also, bosses aren't players. I'm fairly certain that even while they're casting they can dodge/parry/other mittigation. I don't have data that proves or disproves this. Sorry. I'm not 100% confident in this, so to the community take this last statement with a grain of salt.


Final note: Bosses that turn, get a bunch of parries from melee, which then allow the boss to gib your tank, what to do?
A rogue in our guild posited this little nugget of thought the other day. I forget if he mentioned reading it somewhere or not. Instead of tanking a boss in the following piss-poor standard stance: (M = melee, T=tank)
T-Boss-M - - - - - Ranged

In that scenario whenever the boss targets someone other than the tank, it necessarily turns towards melee and starts parry-gibbing tanks.

Stand like this.
M
__Boss - T (the underscores are just showing some space. I can use a preview button )



Ranged

If the post screwed over my textual spacing, basiscally the melee is to the side of the boss, still fighting it's back. The ranged off to the other side. The bulk of the time that the boss turns to target some non-tank, it's got at least a chance of not choosing a melee target and therefore will keep it's back to the melee. This should hopefully lower the amount of parries, and thus help your healer's out.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/07/08 at 3:19 PM. Reason: Others say that casting bosses can't dodge.
#7749SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
However, to your point: if PPM mechanics ARE based on current weapon speed (which, again, should be easy to test), then this means you'll return more mana from SR if you proc it when you aren't affected by a haste proc, e.g. Bloodlust, Berzerking, etc.
Perhaps my understanding is still flawed, but I think this isn't true based on the information here and in the proc mechancis thread linked above. If the PPM is constant independent of haste, the actual chance to proc on each hit scales down as your haste increases, to keep the PPM constant, resulting in the same total number of procs from your autoattack over the duration of the buff. Instant specials like WF and Stormstrike will still be based off of the original, unhasted weapon speed in either case, but you still can't SS more than once per 10 seconds, or WF more than once per 3. The only effect that could change the mana gained (unless I'm missing something else) is that in a hasted state there might be a small but real increase in the number of Windfuries gained as a result of less time between the WF CD expiring and the next melee attack, favoring hasted state ever so slightly.

Originally Posted by Rapparee
If the post screwed over my textual spacing, basiscally the melee is to the side of the boss, still fighting it's back. The ranged off to the other side. The bulk of the time that the boss turns to target some non-tank, it's got at least a chance of not choosing a melee target and therefore will keep it's back to the melee. This should hopefully lower the amount of parries, and thus help your healer's out.
Your textual diagram was pretty clear. It's a cool idea, and I'm pretty sure it could work, but the one failing of the text diagram is that it assumes 90 degree angles. I think, based on seeing a number of Backstab parries on some fights and some reading I've done elsewhere (I can try to find the source, but I honestly don't remember off the top of my head, so it may be completely irrelevant) that the parry arc is actually slightly over 180 degrees. Ideally, I think you'd want essentially a lopsided triangle, with the tank at one point, the melee at the short stubby second point, and the ranged on the farther 3rd point.

Of course, that assumes that the boss some sort of frontal cone ability. If not, might as well do:

Ranged


T
Boss
M

If you're feeling particularly sassy, you could even spread the melee out in an arc behind it, so if he turns to a melee on one side, almost half the rest of the melee also can't be parried. Cool idea, for fights that allow you to mess with positioning like this!
#7750SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by Rapparee
Also, bosses aren't players. I'm fairly certain that even while they're casting they can dodge/parry/other mittigation. I don't have data that proves or disproves this. Sorry. I'm not 100% confident in this, so to the community take this last statement with a grain of salt.
I think it's been pretty conclusively shown that this isn't the case, fights like reliquary and council would be much more painful if casting mobs could dodge. If a rogue ever tries to tell you his kick was dodged you can be pretty sure he was just late in kicking .
#7751SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Shade of Aran/Solarian data should show this easily.

Solarian, 1% melee dodged.
Void Reaver, 4% melee dodged.
#7752SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Amagnus
I think elaboration on how to use Yo's would be extremely helpful. The tool itself is pretty straightforward but there are a lot of nuances surrounding buffs, trinkets, and such where it becomes confusing.

I also cannot figure out how to compare the stat impact of gear that I'm considering. For example, it's obviously easy to pull up the paper doll in WoW and see your stats when wearing your current gear. But how do I figure out the impact of swapping my chest piece with one that is a possible upgrade? I presume we have to go through all the math manually, at least that's what I've been doing, to see the impact of adding and subtracting things. Is there an easier way?
#7753SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3frozndevl
I believe a site like warcrafter.net will allow you to pull up your paperdoll and swap in other pieces of gear and then look at the stats.
#7754SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BigZ
Hit Rating

So you say hit rating is the least important vs AP or crit, but when i use the calculator it ALWAYS shows that i would do more dps with the higher hit rating. Is there some magic number to look for? For example equiping my Kara ring with 25 hit rating and 56 AP vs my SSC ring with 32 strength and 21 agility it calculates a significant dps jump with the kara ring.

I also find it calculates more dps equiping T5 pants vs Void Reaver Greaves and equiping Belt of Deep Shadow vs Valestalker Girdle. It appears that it has very little value for haste.

What have others found comparing gear with hit vs AP or crit on the calculator recently?

BigZ
#7755SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by BigZ
So you say hit rating is the least important vs AP or crit, but when i use the calculator it ALWAYS shows that i would do more dps with the higher hit rating. Is there some magic number to look for?
I bristle every time I see this damn question.

READ THE FIRST POST!

There is no magic value of +Hit that an Enhance Shaman needs We need as much of every stat as we can get, but hit rating is just less important than the others. That does not mean that the goal is to have low hit rating either though.
As an aside, the mods here ask that you don't sign your posts. Might want to refrain from it in the future to avoid an infraction.
#7756SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
My current AEP value for hit is 1.65 for crit it is 1.86 and haste has a value of 1.6 (based on my current gear) and well I allready have 19.21% hit (including talents, ~160 hitrating on gear).

And as you see it is not the least important it's only not so important to say "You need x hitrating because else your damage is below the one from the tank"

Probably you have forgotten to put your hit from the talents also into the box? So for example I have to insert 10.21% + 9% = 19.21 % and not 10.21 % as it is shown in the paperdoll. (I made that mistake myself)
#7757SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Hey, if the simulator says hit rating is worth more than agility for your gear, I can't argue with it. Remember, hit rating isn't terrible, it just costs the same in terms of item budget as Crit Rating, which is always better. If you can choose crit rating over hit rating in the same amount, do so.

Agility, on the other hand, is more expensive. With my stats, hit rating often equals or even outvalues agility because I don't get Kings. I have never seen either outvalue crit rating.

Hit Rating: 15.8 for a 1% increase, but only affects white damage
Crit Rating: 22.08 for 1% increase, affects all damage.
Agility: 25 for 1% increase, affects all damage.
Agility (with kings): 22.7 for 1% increase, affects all damage.

There is a hit cap for shaman, below which hit rating has a higher value -- 9% hit. You have it from your talents. As the previous poster said, make sure you're testing with 15.79%, not 6.79%, which would put you under the hit cap.
#7758SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
If Agility outvalues Crit rating then something is really wrong :P Agility gets EP because it provides Crit rating, and only that. Due to fact 1 Agi produces less than 1 crit rating it will always be a bit less (25 agi for 22.7 crit rating or so i believe out of memory).
#7759SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3BigZ
Thanks...I did forget about adding the 9% in there. I will add it and rerun the different scenarios.
#7760SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
The more I think about a separate Help Desk style thread, the more I think it may be more beneficial to craft some sort of mini-tutorial on using warcrafter.net in conjunction with Yo's simulator to test gear questions.

Since the answer to so many questions in this mega-thread is simply "Read the OP and use Yo's sim", do you think the tutorial should be included in the first post or should we make a separate thread altogether?
#7761SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
What Atren said. Ag is to crit as str is to AP. They are completely locked against each other. Difference is that str > AP while (it is believed) ag < crit.

Some background(wowwiki):
1% crit per 23.6 crit rating.
-- Looking at Malan's armory profile, the 164 crit rating is said to give 7.43%; 22 crit rating per 1%
1% crit per 25 ag.
-- Armory says 22.2 ag per 1% crit
23 ag with BoK gives a total of 25.3 ag.
-- You need 20.18 ag to get 22.2 ag = 1% crit if armory is correct.
1 crit rating costs the same as 1 ag in the item budget.

Conclusion: Ag(with BoK) is a better stat than crit rating. You get slightly more crit from the item budget.

(Disclaimer: If the data provided by wowwiki is wrong, this is flawed. It may very well be as I find the above odd. )

Some data from OP:

T4:
Agility = 1.74 EP
Crit Rating = 1.97 EP
CR/Ag = 1.1322
-- Odd. Why are they so far apart? They both give crit.

T5:
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
CR/Ag = 1 (With Kings? Seems like sloppy numbers)
-- More in line with the above argument.

T6:
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
CR/Ag = 1.0296
-- Same, but favors crit over ag. This should be false given BoK and the numbers from wowwiki.

So what does this all mean?
1) Armory and wowwiki are not in agreement on crit rating and ag needed for 1% crit.
2) Ag seems to be a better stat than crit rationg when you have BoK. Both armory and wowwiki agree on this(I always thought CR was better)
3) Sample EP values show there are some oddities on CR and ag. They should follow each other like AP/str with a fixed modifier between them.
4) Raut is (possibly) high as a kite but is not aware of this fact.
#7762SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Daler
Since the answer to so many questions in this mega-thread is simply "Read the OP and use Yo's sim", do you think the tutorial should be included in the first post or should we make a separate thread altogether?
There is a tutorial for the sim in the OP already, its near the bottom of the article. I don't claim that its all inclusive, but it at least explains what values to input.
#7763SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Malan
There is a tutorial for the sim in the OP already, its near the bottom of the article. I don't claim that its all inclusive, but it at least explains what values to input.
Nothing more needs to be included in the tutorial that can't be figured out with a little common sense.
#7764SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Freyalis
1) Armory and wowwiki are not in agreement on crit rating and ag needed for 1% crit.
This. Crit rating has been tested numerous times, 22.1 rating = 1% Crit. (in this case wowwiki is wrong)
Agility is 25 AGI per 1% crit. Here it can be understood where you went wrong. I'm guessing here that you arrived at your value of 22.2 agi per crit by taking their total crit chance, subtracting the %ge supplied from crit rating and then dividing for total agility. The flaw here being that this doesnt take into account your base crit chance.

Both of the above can be very easily tested in game. Hence we come back to a point where given 221 stat point ( for rounding simplity),
spending them on crit gives 221/22.1 = 10% Crit, spending them on agility without BoK = 221/25 = 8.84% Crit, and spending on agility with kings grants 221*1.1/25 = 243/25 = 9.72% Crit.
#7765SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Concerning Agi and crit rating. As stated above each class has base value of crit which prevents straight agi calc (i.e crit/agi). You need to add/remove a piece of agility gear and then divide the agi change with crit change.

|(AGInow - AGIbefore)/(CRITnow - CRITbefore)|

Same time however the crit rating to crit can be done with simple division. You can see how much crit the crit rating giving ya and then just divide crit rating sum with crit it is reported to give ya.
#7766SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Okay, so now that we know PPM mechanics for "New-World" enchants such as mongoose (and, I assume, Shamanistic rage) are readjusted to current weapon speed, we can infer that you'll have a higher chance to get mana back from SS and WF if you SS while flurry is down (instant attacks don't affect PPM rates).

However, this still leaves the question: What's the actual PPM value of SR, and is it high enough that swapping out faster weapons during SR will return greater amounts of mana?

I ask because, with SR's duration being reduced to 15 seconds, the dps loss of switching to faster weapons for such a short time may be justified if the amount of mana returned is greater. I already did the math in an earlier post showing how, if SR is 40 PPM (or greater), it will clearly proc more times with 1.3 speed weapons than with 2.6 speed ones (and the math system used is agreeable with what the above quoted thread establishes).

The reason that ^ seems possible to me is that I have observed greater mana increases with faster weapons, though I haven't got the mods to tell if that's a fact or if I'm delusional. However, we all agree that you get more mana back when DW than when 2H, which is basically just saying that you get more mana back when you hit the target more often (I know this is a gross simplification). Thus, if we hit even *more* often, by using the fastest possible DW weapons during SR, it is assures us of maximum returns on mana. Fastest possible is 1.3 speed weapons, according to WoWhead; from there you'd have to stack haste rating gear in order to get the attacks as fast as possible. Once we know what the PPM value is, we can safely determine what the theoretical "fastest" weapons are that you would want in order to maximize procs during SR. God willing, 2.6 (or even 2.8) will be that number, but I think it may be faster.

So.. does anyone have in-game evidence that can tell us what the PPM number of SR is - using the fastest available weapons and/or several different weapon speeds for comparison?
#7767SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
So.. does anyone have in-game evidence that can tell us what the PPM number of SR is - using the fastest available weapons and/or several different weapon speeds for comparison?
Back in the day, Kara level gear, pre-T5/2.3 Badge rewards, I would always swap in my 1.8/1.5 speed daggers during SR for mana regen...

1) I had a larger mana pool then (probably close to 8.5k)
2) I had barely 1k AP

I found that daggers filled my mana pool, while my 2.5/2.6 BBW Paw and Blue UB Fist weapon did not. This was reliable enough over the course of many boss fights, that I ALWAYS swapped in daggers to fill up the mana pool...

Fast forward to today, with 1500 AP or so, and a smaller mana pool, 5.5-6k, I do not need to swap, yet still fill the mana pool. I think there's a point where AP is high enough that it doesn't matter anymore. Popping a trinket like bloodlust broach and getting UR to proc also help a lot more, than they did when I had 1k ap, 20% crit, and like 200 hit (;

So there's probably some magic AP/Crit number that yields 2.6 speed mana efficiency, I just don't know what it is, but guess it's around 1.2k or so when it starts to not matter.
#7768SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
I used the armory to get the 22,2%. The tooltip over agility claims 332 ag gives 14.95%. Guess it's flawed in including the base. Oh well.

My point was originally just what was wrong with the sample data. Given these new numbers, you need 22.1 CR or 22.73 Ag(there is no point in calculating without kings. Look at Str's static EP) for 1% crit. Why are the sample data on sets not always AG/CR = 22.73/22.1 = 1,03? The T6 EP values are, so I'm guessing the T4 and T5 ones are wrong.

Why does this matter, you ask? If Yo!'s sim generate EP values for Ag and CR that do not follow Ag/CR = 1.03, the sim must be flawed. Since the most of the EP examples seen here, and my own numbers, suggest the sim is correct, the T4 and T5 sample data in the OP are wrong.
#7769SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
ediar
Hi,my guild is just starting in bt & mh, the last save i Could get band of devastation,
but in a boss fight I saw that my OH speed drop down to 1.40 (BL, mongoose double proc, Flurry(35% 4 pieces t5)) .
Before I noticed that I wanted to get valestalker girdle and bindings of lightning reflexes , but seeing my offhand speed dropping down to 1.40 with only the band of devastation makes me rethink my plans.
I used Yo's sim to try to find if that will affect my dps(changing the haste % in runs of 1000 hours) and the results where

haste% White dps Wf dps
0 526 365
30 687 419
50 794 424
70 903 444

Input to the sim
Char Stats and weapon dps and speed(2.7 MH and 2.6 OH)
Added:
  • Hourglass of the unraveller
  • Orc Racial
  • Tier 5 bonus

Removed :
  • Haste potions

How could be that Wf dps where going up?
did i missed something?

Last edited by ediar : 03/08/08 at 3:07 PM. Reason: clarify the post
#7770SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3wallian
Hi I just wanted to let all know I downloaded Enhancer a couple nights back by following the link in the addons section of the OP and it contained an embedded keylogger and my account was hacked.
#7771SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
Hi, i just wanted to let you know that lot's and lot's of people in here have been using Enhancer for a couple of months by now that was downloaded by following the link in the addons section of the OP and none has reported anything similar to you, so if it had indeed an embedded keylogger, wouldn't like a LOT more people been hacked before you, because of it?
#7772SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Mengus
Back in the day, Kara level gear, pre-T5/2.3 Badge rewards, I would always swap in my 1.8/1.5 speed daggers during SR for mana regen...

1) I had a larger mana pool then (probably close to 8.5k)
2) I had barely 1k AP

I found that daggers filled my mana pool, while my 2.5/2.6 BBW Paw and Blue UB Fist weapon did not. This was reliable enough over the course of many boss fights, that I ALWAYS swapped in daggers to fill up the mana pool...

Fast forward to today, with 1500 AP or so, and a smaller mana pool, 5.5-6k, I do not need to swap, yet still fill the mana pool. I think there's a point where AP is high enough that it doesn't matter anymore. Popping a trinket like bloodlust broach and getting UR to proc also help a lot more, than they did when I had 1k ap, 20% crit, and like 200 hit (;

So there's probably some magic AP/Crit number that yields 2.6 speed mana efficiency, I just don't know what it is, but guess it's around 1.2k or so when it starts to not matter.
On most fights, it's true that the speed doesn't matter for purposes of mana regen because we just get so much mana back, but on some - Zul'Jin for example, where I'm doing a crapton of off-healing and don't necessarily get to just melee dps for the entire duration of SR, knowing that I can swap in faster weapons to get back more mana while I *can* dps will make a big difference. I would however like those weapons to be as slow as possible while still maximizing the mana gained so that my dps doesn't suffer too much... thus it would be nice to know what the actual PPM rate of SR is.
#7773SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3e30Birdy
Quick question i have a shaman and here is the link Shamlord

I have stacked around 273 armor pen atm and was wondering if it is worthwhile or if i should go for other pieces of gear and maybe even swap my mh enchant from exec to mongoose to up my dps!

Any answers would be appreciated even per email or pm!
#7774SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by e30Birdy
Quick question i have a shaman and here is the link Shamlord

I have stacked around 273 armor pen atm and was wondering if it is worthwhile or if i should go for other pieces of gear and maybe even swap my mh enchant from exec to mongoose to up my dps!

Any answers would be appreciated even per email or pm!
The answers you seek can be found in the OP and Yo's simulator.
#7775SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3e30Birdy
I have read it 500 times and wanted to know from peoples personal experience

i know that mongoose is vialble to a point and after that more crit doesnt give you as much benifit as would stacking armor pen!
#7776SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3poofypajamas
You want to know if the crit rating of mongoose would not be as helpful as the armor penetration on executioner... how could we possibly know for you unless we extensively researched your character, something which no one wants to do, GO USE YO'S
#7777SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
On most fights, it's true that the speed doesn't matter for purposes of mana regen because we just get so much mana back, but on some - Zul'Jin for example, where I'm doing a crapton of off-healing and don't necessarily get to just melee dps for the entire duration of SR, knowing that I can swap in faster weapons to get back more mana while I *can* dps will make a big difference. I would however like those weapons to be as slow as possible while still maximizing the mana gained so that my dps doesn't suffer too much... thus it would be nice to know what the actual PPM rate of SR is.
The only time you should find yourself healing on ZJ would be during lynx phase when he focuses on cloth wearers. I'll pop a PVP mana potion if necessary and use SR around 27% to get back to full in that 7%. If you're doing more healing than this, you should have a talk with your healers. =)
#7778SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by e30Birdy
I have read it 500 times and wanted to know from peoples personal experience

i know that mongoose is vialble to a point and after that more crit doesnt give you as much benifit as would stacking armor pen!
From the OP:

[Enchant Weapon - Executioner] is roughly equivalent at high T5/T6 levels of gearing to a single enchant of Mongoose. However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration.
#7779SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malayka
So a guildy, an enhance shaman, came to me with a problem. He was hitting 600 DPS in T 4 gear, but upwards edge of it. he felt he should be hitting higher, so he asked for suggestions. I gave them.

Anyway, he came later, and said he'd found another problem. He needed more hit rating! (He's currently at 109)

being the theorycrack child that I am, I laughed, and said no way, look at the EJ thread again. But he replied that it seemed wrong, that he was missing 30+% of his attacks, if you removed talents. So I decided to go to WWS to disprove it.

And I ran through a bunch of parses, looked at gear, and realized that I could see no other conclusion.

Either shaman's base miss % was 32%, or something wasn't working.



Anyone know what's up with this? Disprove me, please.
#7780SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
I'm having a little separate weird problem with yo!'s simulator, and I'm not sure why.

AEP values:
AP = 1
Hit = 1.67
Haste = 1.74
Armor Pen = 0.33
Strength = 2.2
Agility = 1.71
Expertise 3.24


My problem lies in that I was re-evaluating my two trinkets. One is DST of course, but for the second one I was running yo!'s sim to compare madness vs berserker's call since I have both. I put Berserker's Call at 130aep(added to my base AP in the sim) to account for if I use it late etc etc. This is the math I got with madness: (84+ (20*1.67) + (2.4*10/60*300*0.33) = 156.6 so for my values madness is ~26+ AEP higher than berserker. So I ran the sim using both and even though madness results in a higher single AEP value; the projected DPS is about ~20 lower compared to Berserker's. I'm a little puzzled. Am I hitting a retard block and not realizing it or?
#7781SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by falonub
So I ran the sim using both and even though madness results in a higher single AEP value; the projected DPS is about ~20 lower compared to Berserker's.
Only proc part of trinkets is being modelled. You have to input passive stats directly. The reason for this is that if you already have it equipped - those passive stats are already represented in the paperdoll.
#7782SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Malayka
So a guildy, an enhance shaman, came to me with a problem. He was hitting 600 DPS in T 4 gear, but upwards edge of it. he felt he should be hitting higher, so he asked for suggestions. I gave them.

Anyway, he came later, and said he'd found another problem. He needed more hit rating! (He's currently at 109)

being the theorycrack child that I am, I laughed, and said no way, look at the EJ thread again. But he replied that it seemed wrong, that he was missing 30+% of his attacks, if you removed talents. So I decided to go to WWS to disprove it.

And I ran through a bunch of parses, looked at gear, and realized that I could see no other conclusion.

Either shaman's base miss % was 32%, or something wasn't working.



Anyone know what's up with this? Disprove me, please.
As any dual-wielding class, shamans have a 28% base miss rate against a boss (9% miss rate + 19% dual-wield penalty).

So you're stating the parses you looked into are rather showing a miss rate equivalent to 32% bass miss rate ? (You are not very clear on this point).

There may be many explanations : a streak of bad luck (can definitely happen unless you have a very big parse of a few hundred hours of boss fights), or maybe the miss rate on your parse includes dodges. There may also be external factors like debuff lowering your chance to hit (Attumen comes to mind) or getting disarmed and hitting with a non-capped competence
#7783SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
suicidalkatt
Totem tossing?

Is it possible to use both Stonebreaker's Totem and Totem of Astral Winds by making a macro that would swap Stonebreaker's in before casting a shock spell and switch back to Astral winds?

All attempts i've made simply swap the items and have an occational shock pop out.

Any ideas? and if it were possible would it be beneficial?

Last edited by suicidalkatt : 03/09/08 at 1:21 AM.
#7784SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malayka
Originally Posted by LazyJoe
As any dual-wielding class, shamans have a 28% base miss rate against a boss (9% miss rate + 19% dual-wield penalty).

So you're stating the parses you looked into are rather showing a miss rate equivalent to 32% bass miss rate ? (You are not very clear on this point).

There may be many explanations : a streak of bad luck (can definitely happen unless you have a very big parse of a few hundred hours of boss fights), or maybe the miss rate on your parse includes dodges. There may also be external factors like debuff lowering your chance to hit (Attumen comes to mind) or getting disarmed and hitting with a non-capped competence
28? I always thought it was 24.

And the fights I used were Illidan (4 of them) and Void Reaver (once)

yes, it looked like people were having a 32% miss rate.
#7785SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Most likely parsing included dodges, also a stupid question probably: is his weapon skill maxed? :P
#7786SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Simian LeSinge
Originally Posted by suicidalkatt
...a macro that would swap Stonebreaker's in before casting a shock spell and switch back to Astral winds?
The big problem is that switching relic slot resets the swing timer, so it will dramatically reduce your white damage.
#7787SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3suicidalkatt
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
The big problem is that switching relic slot resets the swing timer, so it will dramatically reduce your white damage.
Alright so screw my idea :P i'm deciding to stick with Stone for raiding
#7788SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Simian LeSinge
For situations where I'm severely aggro-limited, I don't shock at all.
In those situations I really wish I'd put the effort in to farm MT for astral winds...
#7789SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
For situations where I'm severely aggro-limited, I don't shock at all.
In those situations I really wish I'd put the effort in to farm MT for astral winds...
Rank 1 shocks?
#7790SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Simian LeSinge
For situations where I'm severely aggro-limited, I don't shock at all.
In those situations I really wish I'd put the effort in to farm MT for astral winds...

Just use Flame Shock in this situation. Let it tick for the entire duration and then reapply it. The initial shock is rather weak compared to the others and the dot is very unlikely to pull aggro unless there is a complete aggro reset during the fight. And honestly I can not think of any fight that you would be so limited that you could not use a single shock.
#7791SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3panny
Originally Posted by Aeolian
Just use Flame Shock in this situation. Let it tick for the entire duration and then reapply it. The initial shock is rather weak compared to the others and the dot is very unlikely to pull aggro unless there is a complete aggro reset during the fight. And honestly I can not think of any fight that you would be so limited that you could not use a single shock.
Wha? Flame Shock is higher DPS if CoE or Imp. Scorch are up. Rank 1 shocks are the best solution.
#7792SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Aeolian
Well looking at the post I replied to, the point was using a different totem, understandably its a chance to proc mechanism, but for me it will proc almost instantly when the ICD is up. Granted not every time, but the majority of the time. My point was not to waste time using Rank 1 shocks if he is using Stonebreaker's and just use max rank flame shock every 10-12 seconds. The overall impact damage from Flame Shock is not dramatic enough to pull unless you are above the tank in threat already, and the tick is generally 200ish raid buffed.

From the OP:

Conclusion: The Stonebreaker totem should be superior to the Totem of Astral Winds on average if the shaman can shock at least once every 14 seconds. Note that Stonebreaker has a 10 second hidden cooldown.
At any rate, if you are threat capped to the point that you cant even flame shock you have bigger problems then what totem you are using. May want to consider replacing a tank. I can't think of fight that I am in a position I can't even use one shock. To each their own though, if you are in a position that you can't use a single max rank shocks, then Rank 1 would be the way to go to keep Stonebreaker's rolling.
#7793SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lumb
Hi, i'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this but..

A new rogue recruit to the guild that i'm in is claiming that GoA gives sword specced rogues better personal dps than windfury does, and the fact that the shaman also benefits from it means it benefits the overall raid dps even more. I am pretty sure he is wrong, but can I get some clarification on this because as far as I know windfury totem did get 'hotfixed' (nerfed) not so long ago?

Also

This is the group setup I am usually part of during 25 man raids

1x Enhancement Shaman
2x Sword Rogues
1x Fury warrior
1x Feral druid (usually the OT)

Now, he is also claiming that GoA would be better in this situation, but I am 90% sure he is wrong.

Could anybody shed some light?
#7794SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Shiyo
From my experience, if you're not twisting, the windfury totem isn't good as instant poison and GoA. Flametongue is even better than instant poison if the target has CoE and Scorch, but that would take away your ability to searing totem if you prefer that.
#7795SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I can't believe people still think that nonsense.
#7796SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
You feral will love you, your dps will be slightly higher - but your fury will lose about TWENTY PERCENT of his dps. Sword rogues raiding instances above karazhan will see slightly more dps from windfury totem with a small scale to dual legendary max hit 4 piece t6 rogues.

Simple math:
Rogue stay allmost same dps with both totems, about 1.000 dps.
Fury drives 1.000 dps without goa.
You drive 800 dps without goa.
Feral drive 800 dps without goa (while not tanking).

Run Yo! simulator, see the benefit from goa and run a spreadsheet for your feral.

GoA is only a good choice if your fury is a slacker (lack of gear/skill -> lack of damage) or your feral need max avoidance as an offtank (eg gruul).
#7797SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Simian LeSinge
The rank one shock suggestion to keep up Stonebreakers when on high threat is very helpful. Thank you.
#7798SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Sandron
Originally Posted by Lumb
Hi, i'm pretty sure I already know the answer to this but..

A new rogue recruit to the guild that i'm in is claiming that GoA gives sword specced rogues better personal dps than windfury does, and the fact that the shaman also benefits from it means it benefits the overall raid dps even more. I am pretty sure he is wrong, but can I get some clarification on this because as far as I know windfury totem did get 'hotfixed' (nerfed) not so long ago?

Also

This is the group setup I am usually part of during 25 man raids

1x Enhancement Shaman
2x Sword Rogues
1x Fury warrior
1x Feral druid (usually the OT)

Now, he is also claiming that GoA would be better in this situation, but I am 90% sure he is wrong.

Could anybody shed some light?
He is wrong.
WF benefits him and the war more than goa.
as for the druid, sure he doesnt see any benefit from WF but in all honesty, hes there to buff the rogues and the rest of the group


also just wanted to say that the original post is a great tool. Found exactly what i was looking for in less than 2 minutes.
keep up the good work
#7799SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tambard
I was curious as to whether or not anyone had considered the [Hand of Justice]. I've been thinking about running into BRD and grabbing one to check the proc rate, but I figured I'd check here first to see if anyone had thought about it or tried it out... Or happened to have any numbers at all regarding this trinket.
#7800SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Originally Posted by Tambard
I was curious as to whether or not anyone had considered the [Hand of Justice]. I've been thinking about running into BRD and grabbing one to check the proc rate, but I figured I'd check here first to see if anyone had thought about it or tried it out... Or happened to have any numbers at all regarding this trinket.
Well I don't have any numbers, but I have the trinket, it seemed to have an horrible procrate so it's gathering all the dust of my bank now. But perhaps I can get some numbers with procmeter or something like that.
#7801SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
<3 search this thread tool
#7802SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Paksenarrion
I just have 1 thing to ask. i know 2.6 weapons is what we should use.

The fists from badges in 2.4 are 2.5 speed ,but also seems to be a upgrade from the syphon/rising tide combo. So my question here is for the theorycrafters. How much dps will i loose from the occasional WF loss i get from 2.5 weapons. Or is it worth switching to those fists when 2.4 hits

Last edited by Paksenarrion : 03/10/08 at 6:59 AM.
#7803SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Originally Posted by Paksenarrion
I just have 1 thing to ask. i know 2.6 weapons is what we should use.

But, the fists from badges in 2.4 are 2.5 speed but aslo seems to be a upgrade from the syphon/rising tide combo. SO my question her eis for the theorycrafters. How much dps will i loose from the occasional WF loss i get from 2.5 weapons. Or is it worth switching to those fists when 2.4 hits
Did you consider using yo!'s sim? I recommend you read the first post again and use proper punctuation in your next posts, as this kind of posts will get you banned quickly here.
#7804SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paksenarrion
I would have if i could get the sim to work.

And i dident see much wrong with my punctuation. This might just be as english is not my first language
#7805SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ygidorp
Perfect gear?

I've been looking through some of the replies here but I gave up at some point. What I am looking for is a sheet showing the currently best gear an enhancement shaman can obtain if you ONLY consider DPS throughput. Anyone knows of such sheet? It might also be a nice section to add to the main post as well, seeing as the best weapons available already are listed.
#7806SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Take the EP numbers from the OP, import them into Lootrank, apply common sense, profit.
#7807SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Aeolian
Ygi, this thread isn't here to tell you what gear you should be wearing exactly. The thread is a guide to shaman mechanics and provides the tools for you to find out what gear you should be wearing, for yourself. The reason you haven't found something to that effect is because most people will tell you exactly what I just told you and what I am about to tell you: Use Yo's Simulator for your current gear and then do some math and find your own upgrades.

Edit: LootRank is another tool you could use.

Edit 2: Bah and Raut beat me to my edit.

Last edited by Aeolian : 03/10/08 at 7:51 AM.
#7808SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paksenarrion
How do you use that sim? All i get is a blank page under the heading. So i have no chance to test out my 2.5 speed 2.4 badges fists calc
#7809SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ragga
"Q: I do not see applet, what do I need to run it?
A: Download latest Java from Sun. Make sure that your browser's settings allow java. "

Reading does help sometimes :S
#7810SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paksenarrion
I have tried that ofc. It just wont work for me
#7811SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
What OS you have? What Browser you using. What Java version you have installed?
#7812SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
The number of stupid posts asking the same crap that's been asked a dozen times in this thread in the last 2 pages is astounding.

Read the OP. Search the thread (yes the entire thread) and THEN post.
#7813SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3automatica
Originally Posted by Paksenarrion
How do you use that sim? All i get is a blank page under the heading. So i have no chance to test out my 2.5 speed 2.4 badges fists calc
Take the time to read the FAQ for Yo's simulator and it CLEARLY spells out how to resolve the exact thing you're asking.

Q: I do not see applet, what do I need to run it?
A: Download latest Java from Sun. Make sure that your browser's settings allow java.
Edit: Just saw ragga's post. Apologies for repeating the obvious response.
#7814SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Originally Posted by Myul
Your right again, well there were some issues this morning with the forum and editing my post didn't work anymore.
Well Yo said he tuned it to be 1.33%, after 13 minutes bashing in blasted lands I got 1.6% but 13 minutes isn't long enough, well Yo also posted it gives an attack with the same hand it procced, well I'm wondering if that is true because I got in this 13 minutes only extradamage from my mainhand (well again 13 minutes are just too short so I have to hack a longer time there, it's just suspicious and could have some impact on itemization of HoJ)

But it's kind of hard analysing which weapon proct it and if it procs of windfury or not. I'll look into it.

Edit: Just a short question for those who have done similar research allready, what timeframe is there to tell this attack has procced that effect? Is it just normal lagtime e.g. 200ms or can there be a gap of 2 seconds?
#7815SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
It might be worth logging onto the PTR and asking a GM what the PPM on SR is, because the GMs on the PTR always seem a little more happy to divulge info like that, on the other hand, one could go to Blasted lands, and spend hours with and without weapon buffs with a 2Her and DW to see what the PPM is with WWS parsing (Remember NOT to use SS for some of the tests,a nd tehn use SS for others so everyone can see the change in PPM values so we can assess if SS even affects it). I can probably get to this next weekend, but if we all go do an hour or two and just look at a straight PPM value and not mana returned per attack we can see what we find.

If you have a nice little weapons cache, try this out with some daggers too, and 9% hit should be more than enough to cap us on the 60 mobs in blasted lands.
#7816SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
So I did some further hacking in blasted lands with Hand of Justice. Now it was for 52 minutes (well somehow I got bored and there is a raid waiting for me...)

Results:
Hits: 3284
Procs: 48
Time: 52 min
-> 1.46% chance
There seems to be a very small or even none hidden cooldown as I got 2 procs in 2.8 seconds (from combatlog)

As far as the extraattacks damage is shown quite fast (one lagtime ~200ms) after the actual gain of an extra attack it seems the extraattack is always the mainhand (and thus Yo's sim would be wrong).

Windfury didn't seem to proc HoJ (well there was some Blizzard poster saying no extraattack would proc another one or am I wrong?)

If someone wants my combatlog, I can send it, but it's in German and only 40 minutes because I forgot to start a new log for easier searching...
#7817SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Malystra
Is it possible to see the calculations used to model the DPS output for Windfury Totem? I'm having some issues with group compositions and which Air Totem to drop so I want to prove mathematically which Totem to use.
#7818SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Theoretically HoJ should have a 1.33% proc rate (2% at level 60 * 2/3), and 1.46% after only 50 minutes of testing seems like a reasonable level of error. With 2.6 speed weapons, this should give ~.75 procs per minute, which at 600 damage per MH swing would be 7.5 DPS, or a total EP of around 60. Being able to proc WF would only increase its damage by <30%, making it go up to about 70 EP, and still worse than leveling quest greens.
#7819SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Felguard

Might be a really stupid question, but I was wondering if anyone knew if Felguards received windfury, I would test it, but can't find a felguard lock on at the moment.
#7820SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
Tested this last time I ran a heroic with a felguard lock. Felguards do get windfury.

Druids in tree form also get windfury. Thank you, mana feeder packs, for this valuable information. Cat druids, however, still do not get windfury. Pointing out this contradiction is the best way I know to incite feral druids (besides taking their loot, of course).
#7821SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Delita
I don't think they do, as I believe all pets funtion on a feral druid esque basis in that they don't use a weapon skill per se in their attacks and although a Felguard may swing a weapon, it doesn't have weapon skills and the like, so I don't think they would recieve it, although receiving other totem passive buffs like SoE and GoA.

[e] beaten, and proven wrong.

Last edited by Delita : 03/10/08 at 8:48 PM.
#7822SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Malystra
Is it possible to see the calculations used to model the DPS output for Windfury Totem? I'm having some issues with group compositions and which Air Totem to drop so I want to prove mathematically which Totem to use.
At the risk of looking like a retard:

You can get a rough model by breaking down average damage per swing over 100 hits. G = %Glancing, C = %Crit, N = %Normal, X = Average WF Hit. (I haven't had algebra in a while, sorry if this looks terrible)

(((G*.65(glancing penalty)*X+C*2(crit multiplier)*X+N*X)/100(amount of swings))*.2(WF Proc Chance))/Average Weapon Speed

For example's sake, use these numbers:

Average WF hit = 1000
Glancing = 25%
Crit = 35%
Normal = 30%
Miss = 5%
Dodge = 5%
Average Weapon Speed = 1.5

(((25*.65*1000+35*2*1000+30*1000)/100)*.2)/1.5
((16250+70000+30000)/100)*.2)/1.5
(1162.5*.2)/1.5 = 155

In reality the average WF hit will be higher depending on your rogues gear level/consumables/raid composition, glancing will most likely be lower, and with expertise the dodge and miss will be lower as well.
#7823SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Originally Posted by Shalas
Theoretically HoJ should have a 1.33% proc rate (2% at level 60 * 2/3), and 1.46% after only 50 minutes of testing seems like a reasonable level of error. With 2.6 speed weapons, this should give ~.75 procs per minute, which at 600 damage per MH swing would be 7.5 DPS, or a total EP of around 60. Being able to proc WF would only increase its damage by <30%, making it go up to about 70 EP, and still worse than leveling quest greens.

Well perhaps just overwhelmed by our Archimonde firstkill, I went to the auctionhouse bought a grey dagger and went to the blasted lands again.

This time:
1653 hits
24 procs
28:13 min

-> 1.45% procrate

Well I had the idea of getting up the ppm of the trinket but well it just changed from 0.92 to 0.85, it just got worse (well as the procrate it seems to be getting closer to theoretical values), seems to be somehow a ppm effect or I just don't understand the mechanic of a chance based proc. (thought ppm would increase if I switch for a faster weapon)

Well 600 damage per MH swing seemed a bit low but 750 damage doesn't change the value to be superior to anything else easy obtainable...

I will look through the combatlog tommorow to investigate the thing if it only procs a MH swing or not. (At least this could be changed in Yos simulator then for the sake of correctness)
#7824SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Shinanigans
Good afternoon ladies and gents.

I am currently sitting at 188 passive haste rating and I am starting to wonder if I am overdoing it. I know that 2.4 is going to make haste a much more valuable stat, but I more worried about right now.

With my current haste rating, my attack speed is down to 2.32 -- I have Rising Tide MH and S2 Axe OH. Is this killing WF procs?

Also, if I was asked to explain why I have so much haste rating, what would be a solid answer to that question?

Thanks.
#7825SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
There is no solid answer, if you need to do something, just point and click to the simulator if it is infact a DPS upgrade.
#7826SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
Good afternoon ladies and gents.

I am currently sitting at 188 passive haste rating and I am starting to wonder if I am overdoing it. I know that 2.4 is going to make haste a much more valuable stat, but I more worried about right now.

With my current haste rating, my attack speed is down to 2.32 -- I have Rising Tide MH and S2 Axe OH. Is this killing WF procs?

Also, if I was asked to explain why I have so much haste rating, what would be a solid answer to that question?

Thanks.
The first post in section 3.1.3 clearly states that an increase of haste rating will increase white DPS. The theoretical valley with too much haste doesn't exist, so haste is good.

I'm not going to try and put words in your mouth, but shouldn't your answer to why you have so much haste is because you used Yo!'s simulator, calculated your personal EP values, and evaluated those specific items as upgrades to your previous gear?
#7827SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Chaotique
I am curious as to whether everyone equips separate gear sets for different encounters, or pretty much carries a single max-mean dps set. The reason is I am at very early raids in terms of progression (ZA, Gruul, etc.), and the bosses seem to have a huge armor disparity. I have been unable to find any quotes for ZA boss armor values (please tell me if you know of such a resource!), but my completely unrigorous and handwavy impression is that they are quite low compared to the normal 6.2k-7.7k range. On the other hand Gruul is highly armored, which makes ignore armor seem rather less valuable. Is there a common practice of carrying around multiple gear sets depending on the armor level of bosses?

Also, for the provided T4-T6 guideline EP values, is there a boss armor value assumption for the provided EP values of armor penetration? (I know I should just run Yo!'s sim, but I have a PPC Mac and can't run it on any Linux or Windows cluster machines at my university either... sigh.)
#7828SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Phany
Hit Rating Question

I know this has probably already been discussed in this thread, however I don't feel like searching for hours. Anyways, since our special attacks are hit-capped, and extra hit rating is just good to have, would there happen to be a point where your hit rating becomes capped? I wouldn't want to keep adding stat weights to hit rating if I'm already hit capped.
#7829SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Paradox
I don't know offhand what the hit-cap is but if you've been following the weights from the sim an gearing yourself like that you'll never get hit capped with the current itemization.
#7830SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Phany
I know this has probably already been discussed in this thread, however I don't feel like searching for hours. Anyways, since our special attacks are hit-capped, and extra hit rating is just good to have, would there happen to be a point where your hit rating becomes capped? I wouldn't want to keep adding stat weights to hit rating if I'm already hit capped.
Since people can't seem to grasp when this is typed out, perhaps illustrations will help.

#7831SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3ragga
Maybe that diagram should be added to the first page under a chapter "For the thick-headed".
#7832SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3qualia
Originally Posted by Phany
I know this has probably already been discussed in this thread, however I don't feel like searching for hours.
maybe you shouldn't feel like playing an enhancement too.
#7833SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3wesleyad
I have looked around for an answer regarding this issue but am having trouble. I've recently specced enhancement but have been building up gear for a while. Last night in eye I was raiding with another enhance shammy, very similar gearing to mine. My hit is slightly higher at 134 to his 86. This seems to be reflected in his melee miss being 20% to my 18%. However his wf miss rate was dramatically lower than mine at 7% to my 10%.

Our weapons are both 2.6 in both mh and oh so I don't think the reason is that I'm getting more oh wf.

The only major difference between gear is he has mongoose on both, i only have crusader at moment. I assume I've missed something obvious, but after browsing around for the last couple of hours, I have yet to find it.
#7834SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by wesleyad
I have looked around for an answer regarding this issue but am having trouble. I've recently specced enhancement but have been building up gear for a while. Last night in eye I was raiding with another enhance shammy, very similar gearing to mine. My hit is slightly higher at 134 to his 86. This seems to be reflected in his melee miss being 20% to my 18%. However his wf miss rate was dramatically lower than mine at 7% to my 10%.

Our weapons are both 2.6 in both mh and oh so I don't think the reason is that I'm getting more oh wf.

The only major difference between gear is he has mongoose on both, i only have crusader at moment. I assume I've missed something obvious, but after browsing around for the last couple of hours, I have yet to find it.
Provided you've chosen the 'common' enhancement build with +9% hit when dual wielding, your specials (WF+SS) should be hit capped and thus never miss. This means that the 'miss' from WWS are mostly dodges and some parry (probably from trash or you've been unlucky and hit a boss in the face). You can expand the column of the wws and you'll see what the misses really are. In my case a whole run contains a couple of parries (trash mobs mostly) and some dodge, but I've never seen a special miss recorded in any of our WWS parses.

Wild guess he has an item with expertise and you don't, or he's better at hitting stuff in the back. If you have a link to the WWS that would enable the rest of us to help you should anyone find the interest.
#7835SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Abakus
It might have also something to do with the instance you were in, as some mobs decrease your chance to hit (MH banshee curse).

If he resists it or is decursed earlier, your chance to hit be much lower.
#7836SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3wesleyad
Thjanks for that feedback, you are correct neither of us missed on any wf or ss attack and it appears the decrepancy does lie in my larger parried and dodged attacks. Bad positioning from me then I assume, at least this can be easily resolved. Although neither of us have any, I see now how a little expertise can go a long way. I look forward to al'ar's gloves dropping.
#7837SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Chaotique
The reason is I am at very early raids in terms of progression (ZA, Gruul, etc.), and the bosses seem to have a huge armor disparity. I have been unable to find any quotes for ZA boss armor values (please tell me if you know of such a resource!), but my completely unrigorous and handwavy impression is that they are quite low compared to the normal 6.2k-7.7k range.
Negative, every boss in ZA is either the High or Low armor value that every other boss in the game has. There is nothing special about the ZA bosses. You are perceiving a difference because your group is likely lacking some of the normal armor reduction debuffs that you are used to seeing in a full 25 man raid.
#7838SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
For the record, I just spent the last ~1h10m reading various search results. Found a few shiny objects and read them accordingly, but anyway, two questions..

"Reduced effect" on crusader above lv60.. reduced by how much? Does anyone know? I used to have crusader on my mid50s rogue and liked it. Very cool enchant, procs 'enough' imo and even looks nice. Bottom line, can't beat it for the price.. 80-120g depending on server.

But there the charm fades a little. I know, from said searching, that oldschool enchants DO benefit from haste as a result of how the PPM calcs work. My shaman is primarily used for pvp and things like Mongoose don't appeal to me that much.. the stick-and-move environment of pvp has nothing to do with the constant burn and drag of a 10min boss fight, so PPM is very much an issue.

Yeah yeah I know.. fiery. Based on fire dmg being unmitigated by armor, the sheer frequency of the proc, the superlow cost of the enchant, the fact that it can crit, and the fact that 40 dmg is still a significant percentage of the dmg done per swing, I decided fiery wasn't so bad. Don't shit a brick when you see fiery on my aging OH.

My other question is.. if the hallmark of an enh shaman is a slow weapon to cut down on the number of swings that occur while INSIDE the wf cooldown.. then, why isn't everyone using weapons with a speed that adds up to logical multiples of 3? Such as a weapon with a 1.5 swing;

0.000 swing axe, make priest piss his pants, proc wf
0.001 weapon timer spins, look at the pretty colors..
1.500 weapon timer resets, swing again at another priest whos still alive..
1.501 "while my DJ revolves it" ..
3.000 second swing timer reset, ready for 3rd swing, 3sec wf cooldown reset, ready to go?

..or is this an oversimplification?

I'll probly get crusader in any case but I believe that the degree to which the effect is 'reduced' just because I'm higher than lv60 is of some importance and DOES factor into the decision, as I see it. Potency I'm not real thrilled about. There's nothing wrong with it, its probly just not overall best since 40 ap per weapon is nice but nothing to write home about.
#7839SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3wesleyad
At level 70 crusader only gives 60 strength instead of the 100 at level 60.
#7840SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Storming
My other question is.. if the hallmark of an enh shaman is a slow weapon to cut down on the number of swings that occur while INSIDE the wf cooldown.. then, why isn't everyone using weapons with a speed that adds up to logical multiples of 3? Such as a weapon with a 1.5 swing;

0.000 swing axe, make priest piss his pants, proc wf
0.001 weapon timer spins, look at the pretty colors..
1.500 weapon timer resets, swing again at another priest whos still alive..
1.501 "while my DJ revolves it" ..
3.000 second swing timer reset, ready for 3rd swing, 3sec wf cooldown reset, ready to go?

..or is this an oversimplification?
Flurry and Mongoose mean that it's impossible to actually have a fixed swing time, and there's no benefit from minimizing the time between WF's cooldown ending and the next proc. Doing so maximizes the number of WF procs you get, but reduces the size of your WF procs at the exact same rate.
#7841SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Khaul
Is there a rough EP value for the 5% bonus haste to flurry from the T5 4 piece set? Curious as to how many item(s) EP value is needed to offset it.
#7842SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Storming
My other question is.. if the hallmark of an enh shaman is a slow weapon to cut down on the number of swings that occur while INSIDE the wf cooldown.. then, why isn't everyone using weapons with a speed that adds up to logical multiples of 3?
For one, Shamans are all about the haste proc. There's no such thing a constant speed for a shaman weapon; not with Flurry, Bloodlust, Mongoose, Dragonstrike, DST, haste pots, drums of battle and Berzerking.

Furthermore, cutting down the number of swings between windfuries is only PART of the value of a slow weapon. The main value of a slow weapon is that it is simply more damage per strike.

Let's call the average period between windfuries the Windfury Lag. The total dps of windfury could be stated thusly:

Windfury Damage / (3s + Windfury lag)

Windfury damage can be reduced to 2 * ((AP/14) + Weapon DPS) * Weapon speed. Windfury lag can similarly be reduced to some function of weapon speed. I don't know exactly what that function is -- it would include some combination of hit rating, expertise rating, haste rating, haste procs and your stormstrike strategy -- but no matter what it is, that 3s is ALWAYS there to prevent WF DPS from scaling with weapon speed.

This isn't to say that, given a slow weapon, you can't adjust some other component of the windfury lag (such as haste, your SS strategy, or switching from 2Hs to dual wield) and wind up with an increase in windfury output. You will have a net benefit to dps if you go with the slowest weapon you can find, and then speed it up.
#7843SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aximous
Originally Posted by Khaul
Is there a rough EP value for the 5% bonus haste to flurry from the T5 4 piece set? Curious as to how many item(s) EP value is needed to offset it.
Run the sim, check flurry uptime and divide by 100 then multiply by 5*15.7*<your haste ep>.
#7844SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
edit: apologies, I should have used the 'report' instead of 'reply' button.
#7845SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Shegokigo
Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons.

[Mounting Vengeance], drops off Sunwell trash, is the 2.4 Best in Slot OH weapon.

Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available.
Just a simple question due to a curiosity.

2.4 best weapon combos are

S3 MH + Mounting Vengeance = Best Mh/Oh setup in 2.4 ???

Vanir's Right Fist + Vanir's Left Fist > Syphon + Syphon in 2.4???

Just curious due to wanting to be carefull with my current bidding set up.

Last edited by Shegokigo : 03/11/08 at 9:14 PM.
#7846SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kyuki
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
For one, Shamans are all about the haste proc. There's no such thing a constant speed for a shaman weapon; not with Flurry, Bloodlust, Mongoose, Dragonstrike, DST, haste pots, drums of battle and Berzerking.

Furthermore, cutting down the number of swings between windfuries is only PART of the value of a slow weapon. The main value of a slow weapon is that it is simply more damage per strike.

Let's call the average period between windfuries the Windfury Lag. The total dps of windfury could be stated thusly:

Windfury Damage / (3s + Windfury lag)

Windfury damage can be reduced to 2 * ((AP/14) + Weapon DPS) * Weapon speed. Windfury lag can similarly be reduced to some function of weapon speed. I don't know exactly what that function is -- it would include some combination of hit rating, expertise rating, haste rating, haste procs and your stormstrike strategy -- but no matter what it is, that 3s is ALWAYS there to prevent WF DPS from scaling with weapon speed.

This isn't to say that, given a slow weapon, you can't adjust some other component of the windfury lag (such as haste, your SS strategy, or switching from 2Hs to dual wield) and wind up with an increase in windfury output. You will have a net benefit to dps if you go with the slowest weapon you can find, and then speed it up.
To short this explanation down abit: Neither WF or SS is normalized, meaning we still get the benefit of a slower speed. Normalized 1h speed (except for daggers) are at 2.4. Anything above will make that multiplier higher (regular 2.6 weps has a 2.6 mutliplier etc..)
So, what do we get from slower weps? Harder hits/more DPS.
#7847SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Illundai
<snip, needless whine>

I did some testing on the new Shamanistic Rage a few days back. I expected it to fill up my mana bar like it does on live, but unfortunatly it did not always do that. I can see this being extremely detrimental to people in full leather kits and getting a bit unlucky would result in a suboptimal amount of mana regained, or am I being too pessimistic here?

Last edited by Illundai : 03/12/08 at 12:14 AM. Reason: Editting whine out after coffee.
#7848SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Freyalis
But there the charm fades a little. I know, from said searching, that oldschool enchants DO benefit from haste as a result of how the PPM calcs work. My shaman is primarily used for pvp and things like Mongoose don't appeal to me that much.. the stick-and-move environment of pvp has nothing to do with the constant burn and drag of a 10min boss fight, so PPM is very much an issue.

Yeah yeah I know.. fiery. Based on fire dmg being unmitigated by armor, the sheer frequency of the proc, the superlow cost of the enchant, the fact that it can crit, and the fact that 40 dmg is still a significant percentage of the dmg done per swing, I decided fiery wasn't so bad. Don't shit a brick when you see fiery on my aging OH.
To shed some more light on this. Crusader and Fiery's chance to proc is based entirely on base weapon speed so the number of procs scales with haste. All new BC proc enchants chance to proc is based on current weapon speed ensuring the same number of average procs per minute regardless of weapon speed.

Fiery is 6 PPM (or 26% chance per hit with a 2.6 weapon) for 40 Fire damage.
It is affected by CoE, Misery and Imp Scorch.
It has a 5% resist chance vs lvl 70 players and creatures and a 17% Resist chance vs lvl 73 targets.

Crusader is 1 PPM (or 4.3% chance per hit with a 2.6 weapon) that grants 60 STR (120 AP) for 15s with no cooldown
It is of course affected by UR which boosts it to 132 AP, and blessing of Kings which boosts the net result to 145 AP.

Both are viable cheap enchants for weapons which you may not want to drop the money / mats for a mongoose enchant on. Mongoose does however trump both despite its non-scaling with haste. You are right in thinking that potency is rubbish for its cost.

What i'm really interested in though is the PPM and possible cooldown of the new deathfrost enchant. A PPM of 2 would put it into the low viability range from pure damage if there is no cooldown associated
#7849SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Illundai
<snip, needless whine>

I did some testing on the new Shamanistic Rage a few days back. I expected it to fill up my mana bar like it does on live, but unfortunatly it did not always do that. I can see this being extremely detrimental to people in full leather kits and getting a bit unlucky would result in a suboptimal amount of mana regained, or am I being too pessimistic here?
Mana pots are cheap. If you have large mana spendings and SR/WS can't get you back up, it's not that horrible to have to spend the odd pot.
#7850SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Kyuki
To short this explanation down abit: Neither WF or SS is normalized, meaning we still get the benefit of a slower speed. Normalized 1h speed (except for daggers) are at 2.4. Anything above will make that multiplier higher (regular 2.6 weps has a 2.6 mutliplier etc..)
So, what do we get from slower weps? Harder hits/more DPS.
WF is normalized by constant proc rate, or would be if the 3 second cooldown did not exist. SS however is totally unnormalised as is WF procced by that SS.

Mana pots maybe are cheap for you, but they are extra cost. Also they were kinda failsafe earlier to failed SR in encounters. Btw, i seem to recall someone reporting mana return still being 15% AP, but as i have no PTR myself i can't verify what is it now.
#7851SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Khlysti
It had been fixed to 30% (1000+ mana per proc) by the time M'uru was testable.
#7852SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Hello!

I am currently using a twisting macro consisting of a castsequence:

/startattack
/castsequence reset=12 Windfury Totem, Grace of Air Totem, Stormstrike
I would like to improve this macro by having it use Drums of Battle and Haste Potions when they are up. Any people good with the macro interface able to assist?

Thanks,
Andu
#7853SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Why don't you try the UI/Macro forum since that question doesn't have anything to do with Enhancement mechanics.
#7854SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Malan
Why don't you try the UI/Macro forum since that question doesn't have anything to do with Enhancement mechanics.
Apologies, Malan. I figured a macro like that would be useful to everyone who religiously reads the thread (like me!)
#7855SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Atren
WF is normalized by constant proc rate, or would be if the 3 second cooldown did not exist. SS however is totally unnormalised as is WF procced by that SS.
Remember -- in WoW, there's a special meaning of the term "normalization." Normalization is when a "special attack" does the same damage within a wide range of weapon speeds -- say, one value from 1.3 to 1.9, another from 2.0-2.8 and another with speeds slower than 3s.

The normalization you're talking about -- when the additional damage of an attack is offset by some other factor, such as proc rate -- might better be called "scaling with faster weapons" just to separate the two concepts.

SS is unnormalized and it doesn't scale because it does weapon damage from each weapon and it has a cooldown -- even if SS didn't proc WF, there would be a slight benefit to slower weapons. (MaxDPS.com, whose equations don't account for the WF cooldown or its ability to proc from SS, still shows a slight benefit to slower weapons because of SS).

As an aside, I'd really like to find some way to state the average lag between windfuries as a function.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/12/08 at 12:30 PM.
#7856SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Raut
Mana pots are cheap. If you have large mana spendings and SR/WS can't get you back up, it's not that horrible to have to spend the odd pot.
If you maximize DPS, you're chugging a Haste Potion every cooldown.

Originally Posted by Khlysti
It had been fixed to 30% (1000+ mana per proc) by the time M'uru was testable.
I forgot to add this was after the 30% fix, maybe it was me being unlucky or maybe not but I did not get full mana every time. In my opinion it's worth testing it a bit further before shrugging it off as bad luck.
#7857SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Visionnaire
Originally Posted by Raut
Mana pots are cheap. If you have large mana spendings and SR/WS can't get you back up, it's not that horrible to have to spend the odd pot.
Takes up a Haste Potion opportunity, though.

Edit: Sorry, somebody got to it before me.
#7858SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
So based on some of the testing people have done recently (within the past 6 pages), has it been concluded that using a haste potion or bloodlusting during shamanistic rage actually reduces our mana gained?
#7859SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Illundai
I forgot to add this was after the 30% fix, maybe it was me being unlucky or maybe not but I did not get full mana every time. In my opinion it's worth testing it a bit further before shrugging it off as bad luck.
I'd lean towards unlucky, as I haven't had any issues, but I'm still not terribly surprised. With a constant proc rate (assuming, of course, they have kept the same PPM), doubling the amount returned on each hit, and halving the duration, it's more likely to give abnormal total amounts of mana over the duration of the effect. It should still average out to be the same over all uses, but I'm expecting it to see both extremes occur more frequently (i.e., returning an inadequate amount of mana vs. filling it up way before the end of the effect--expect the same average return, but a higher standard deviation). Yay statistics.

Unfortunately I don't have time to confirm this week after work, though. If no one's addressed it by Saturday, I'll spend a few hours on live and test and compare logs.
#7860SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Joy
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
I'd lean towards unlucky, as I haven't had any issues, but I'm still not terribly surprised. With a constant proc rate (assuming, of course, they have kept the same PPM), doubling the amount returned on each hit, and halving the duration,.
My experiences on Brutallus (the only Sunwell fight I got to do as Enhance cause of attendance >_> ) was that I always had full mana with a few seconds to go on the buff. Mind you I wear full leather (ie a small mana pool) apart from my new peices of t6.

That being said, I certainly had more mana troubles than I do on live because you end up with 105 seconds to spend your mana rather than 90.

More annoyingly though is that I regularly tank the first killed mob on trash pulls if a tank is having afk on BT trash and this nerf will see me on the floor a fair bit more than currently.
#7861SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3slant
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Remember -- in WoW, there's a special meaning of the term "normalization." Normalization is when a "special attack" does the same damage within a wide range of weapon speeds -- say, one value from 1.3 to 1.9, another from 2.0-2.8 and another with speeds slower than 3s.
That's not exactly correct as the weapon's damage remains unchanged and weapons with a higher damage range (which are usually also slower) are still beneficial. Only the contribution from attack power is normalized. Thus weapon speed's effects on normalized instant attacks is minimized but not eliminated entirely.

Windfury doesn't need to be normalized as it's (supposedly) a set percentage of attacks. Stormstrike should be; they just missed it.
#7862SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by Joy
That being said, I certainly had more mana troubles than I do on live because you end up with 105 seconds to spend your mana rather than 90.
That's was really hurting us with the change. Before, you was full of mana at point X and twisted/shocked while SR was still up until point y when it was running out. If you have enough ap to regen to full in 15s before, it was fine. But the additional regen is needed to substain your full shock/twisting cycle on eg. Teron. I can not substain that full cycle nowadays on teron without a mana pot (no judgement normally) or only while wearing int heavy mail items (~ 6.5k manapool raidbuffed regulary). I'm running out of mana ~ 20s to early and with the hit of 2.4 it will be 35s every 2 minutes?

Additionally it helped also a lot to survive eg. RoS and Illidan phase 2 (as mentioned some pages before).
#7863SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3syrixx
I’m not good with math at all. This is purely theorycraft not tested in-game. Sure there are other rotations. Yes I am aware of lag and response time to the server. Yes I see that mistake there now that you have pointed it out, thank you. Please don’t hurt me.

Ability rotations:
*ability – wait seconds*
(A) Holding off on shocks to get SS every chance possible
Ss – 1.5 – Fs – 6 – Es – 2.5 – Ss – 3.5 – Fs – 6.5 – Ss – 1.5 – Es 6 – Fs – 2.5 – Ss – 3.5 – Es – 6.5
time – 40 seconds
Ss’s – 4
Fs’s – 3
Es’s – 3

(B) Pressing whatever is not on cooldown in SS/FS/ES order
Ss – 1.5 – Fs – 6 – Es – 2.5 – Ss – 3.5 – Fs – 6 – Es – 1.5 – SS – 4.5 – FS – 5.5 – SS – 1.5 - Es – 6 – Fs – 2.5 – SS – 5.5 – Es – 4.5
time – 51 seconds
Ss’s – 5
Fs’s – 4
Es’s – 4

COMPARE:
(A) in 2040 seconds (40*51)
Ss’s – 204
Fs’s – 153
Es’s – 153

(B) in 2040 seconds(51*40)
Ss’s – 200
Fs’s – 160
Es’s – 160

!RESULT:
(1) How much damage is 4 Ss’s?
(2) How much damage is 7 Fs’s + 7 Es’s?

The difference of 1 and 2 is how little difference the rotations make over a 34min period of time.

What’s the point Syrix?
Because I’ve heard enhance shaman arguing before over this exact nitpicky rotation difference.

G15 Keyboard Owners:
Put one of those rotations into a macro that repeats on toggle on/off. Now you can go afk to do a quest for your spouse…

afk 1min, a spider “as big as the cat!” has my wife cornered in the bathroom standing on the sink screaming obscenities…
#7864SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3panny
Petition for SR to have a 1 min cooldown instead?
#7865SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ardonomus
Originally Posted by panny
Petition for SR to have a 1 min cooldown instead?
"OMG Enhanc shammy OP IN PVP!!!11oneone"

I can just imagine that's the replies that will fly in our faces. Though it's a fair idea PVE wise.
#7866SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Remember -- in WoW, there's a special meaning of the term "normalization." Normalization is when a "special attack" does the same damage within a wide range of weapon speeds -- say, one value from 1.3 to 1.9, another from 2.0-2.8 and another with speeds slower than 3s.

The normalization you're talking about -- when the additional damage of an attack is offset by some other factor, such as proc rate -- might better be called "scaling with faster weapons" just to separate the two concepts.

SS is unnormalized and it doesn't scale because it does weapon damage from each weapon and it has a cooldown -- even if SS didn't proc WF, there would be a slight benefit to slower weapons. (MaxDPS.com, whose equations don't account for the WF cooldown or its ability to proc from SS, still shows a slight benefit to slower weapons because of SS).

As an aside, I'd really like to find some way to state the average lag between windfuries as a function.
Normalization is equalising all. There are several distinctive ways to do it:

1. Skills with cooldowns and ppm. Since it is obvious slower weapons would gain huge bonus over it, equalising here is done by giving the skills set speed for AP. Weapons damage still bring favor to slower ones, but difference is not that bad. Mortal Strike and SoC for example.

2. Flat rate procs. In this the proc rate itself normalizes the damage done. Faster weapons proc more often while slower ones proc for more damage. WF is perfect example of this.

3. Damage added per attack. In this case weapon speed affects amount of additional damage given. Because if it would not fast weapons would be clearly favored. Flametongue is perfect example of that.

Yes, in wow only first is mentioned because it had to be fixed in patch (and causing a lot of turmoil) as well as being most obvious.

Now concerning WF, as i said SS is what causes the emphasis to slower weapons even if 3 second cooldown did not exist. Same would apply to anything that can proc WF. So even if 3 sec cooldown would not exist slower weapons are better, but difference would be far less brutal than what it is at the moment.
#7867SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by syrixx
(A) Holding off on shocks to get SS every chance possible
(B) Pressing whatever is not on cooldown in SS/FS/ES order
What you're talking about is cycle prioritization, and there's a third option, which is to shock as often as possible and only use stormstrike when WF is off cooldown.

This rotation is harder to predict, but very simple to perform. First, get a copy of a windfury timer -- Enhancer has a good one. When your shocks and your stormstrike come off cooldown at the same time (which is the only time we really care about prioritizing them), if Windfury is off cooldown, you stormstrike. If windfury IS on cooldown, you shock...and don't strike until the cooldown is up.

You decrease your stormstrike damage, but it may be offset by also decreasing the lag between windfuries.
#7868SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3callidas
Originally Posted by Atren
Normalization is equalising all. There are several distinctive ways to do it:

3. Damage added per attack. In this case weapon speed affects amount of additional damage given. Because if it would not fast weapons would be clearly favored. Flametongue is perfect example of that.

Yes, in wow only first is mentioned because it had to be fixed in patch (and causing a lot of turmoil) as well as being most obvious.
Seal of Righteousness is normalised (sorry: prevented from scaling) in the 3rd way, faster weapons hitting for less holy damage.
#7869SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Atren
Originally Posted by callidas
Seal of Righteousness is normalised (sorry: prevented from scaling) in the 3rd way, faster weapons hitting for less holy damage.
Umm, that is exactly what third one says. It is just question if you choose base of fastest weapon or slowest weapon :P If fastest weapon it deals more damage and if slowest then it will deal less damage as goes faster. I guess this is one of those glass half full/empty things

Good point about that 15 second increase, and i think we can add Gurtrogg Fel Rage to those encounters where SR is very useful :P
#7870SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Storming
Yes but I'm distrustful of some of this, a bit. Its too easy for 'conventional wisdom' to become enfranchised especially here in this game where doing anything outside of the norm gets you lampooned. Cookie cutter specs or gtfo etcetc.

Concerning wf naturally meshing with weapons that have speeds complementary to an integer value of 3.0 (such as a 1.5speed axe) for pvp purposes, all of the stuff mentioned thus far is mostly a moot point at best.

I'm not even spec'd into flurry, for which I catch shit endlessly.. because your pvp target conveniently stands there til you get a crit, THEN stands around some more so that you can get a few hasted hits just so you get your money's worth from those talent points, right?

..right?

Haste is great and I'll get my piece of that pie as appropriate but its real value is surely pve, in environments where you can just stand behind a raid boss for 8min and drill away.

So assuming no haste and the usual stick-and-move pvp environment, would it be feasible to redress the age-old thing about weapon speed to see if its possible to make a different weapon 'fit' better? I got my offhand s1 axe also.. at the last second I came very close to getting the 1.5speed version just to see how things would go. But alas, I punked out and now DW the 2.6's with crusader on both. Once dual s3's are in hand, then itll be time for mongoose and all that good stuff.
#7871SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Originally Posted by Storming
Yes but I'm distrustful of some of this, a bit. Its too easy for 'conventional wisdom' to become enfranchised especially here in this game where doing anything outside of the norm gets you lampooned. Cookie cutter specs or gtfo etcetc.

Concerning wf naturally meshing with weapons that have speeds complementary to an integer value of 3.0 (such as a 1.5speed axe) for pvp purposes, all of the stuff mentioned thus far is mostly a moot point at best.

I'm not even spec'd into flurry, for which I catch shit endlessly.. because your pvp target conveniently stands there til you get a crit, THEN stands around some more so that you can get a few hasted hits just so you get your money's worth from those talent points, right?

..right?

Haste is great and I'll get my piece of that pie as appropriate but its real value is surely pve, in environments where you can just stand behind a raid boss for 8min and drill away.

So assuming no haste and the usual stick-and-move pvp environment, would it be feasible to redress the age-old thing about weapon speed to see if its possible to make a different weapon 'fit' better? I got my offhand s1 axe also.. at the last second I came very close to getting the 1.5speed version just to see how things would go. But alas, I punked out and now DW the 2.6's with crusader on both. Once dual s3's are in hand, then itll be time for mongoose and all that good stuff.
Having participated in arenas myself as enhance, I'd disagree with most of what you just posted. I've only really done 5s, and I'm usually not alive very long once they figure out I'm enhance. Basically, you want to inflict as much damage as possible before dying, so large, slow weapons would be the best to burst immediately with SS. Usually you'll crit and gain flurry, so follow the SS with a frost shock and stay within range as long as you can to inflict the most damage.

My understanding of PvP DPS is "burst is king", so if that theory holds correct, wouldn't you want to do as much damage in a short amount of time as possible?
#7872SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
[Shaman] PvP + Enhancement = ?

Might want to head over there for discussions about enh PvP.
#7873SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skyhoof
Can someone clarify the amount of expertise rating needed to become capped? Is it 90 or 103? And can we add the answer to 3.1.5 Expertise Rating? Prior to seeing the new gear in Patch 2.4, I never worried about being expertise capped before. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Killme888
Pretty sure they think it's 9% dodge vs 73 mobs, that's 36 expertise required to hit 0, but rogues have 10 expertise through talent, so 26.

26 * 3.94 = 102.44 aka 103.

So we just need to find out if it's 9% dodge or 5.6%. I can see why it could be 9% though, pre-BC miss rate vs 73 using 2H was also 5.6%, but it's been changed and now it's 9%.

Originally Posted by Othieus
"Expertise against Bosses
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed."

Source: Formulas:Expertise - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

One of the two is wrong; unless theres something I'm missing. Which is quite possible as well.

Originally Posted by rava
The expertise cap is 103 unless Roguecraft 101 is a dirty liar.
#7874SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Daler
The OP in Roguecraft 101 is claiming that the boss dodge rate is presumed to by 6.5% now...I'm still searching for the source data, and WWS is being unbelievably wonky for me today.

EDIT: After sifting through that thread some more, the 6.5% figure is apparently based on WWS parses showing average dodge rates on the boss between 6.3-6.6%. Once 2.4 releases, we should be able to get better data from the new abundance of expertise rating available to confirm/deny their conclusions. I guess for now we just go with the flow. /shrug

Last edited by Daler : 03/13/08 at 2:31 PM.
#7875SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Acks
2.4 Combat log changes

Will the changes to the combat logging in 2.4 allow parsers to include totem damage, or allow one to see how many main hand WF procs occured vs offhand procs? I was led to believe that the WF events have separate IDs associated with them, and that totems do as well, but a guildmate was telling me that although this is the case, parsers will not be able to differentiate this somehow.

I had been excited about the new combat log changes shedding better light on our mechanics and our group buffing in general, but it looks like this isn't the case. Anyone know definitively one way or the other?

Cheers
#7876SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
The 6.5% vs 5.x% dodge question looks like the detritus of an old calculation from back when weapon skill could exceed 350. Wowwiki being, well, wowwiki, nobody who knew what they were doing ever took the time to update the old page.

According to the rogues (who I trust on this matter, since not being missed or dodged is important to them), it seems that post 2.3, the base dual wield miss chance against l73 mobs went up to 28%, and the base dodge/parry rate went up to 6.5%. (This is opposed to 25.4% and 5.4% prior to 2.3).

If Yo's reading, I'd appreciate confirmation that these values are used by his simulator.
#7877SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
There is an attack table on Forensic Report tab.
28% miss, 5.6% dodge are being used (9% miss for specials)
checked again if it outputs same as coded - yes it does, you can check it with different hit/exp values
Bug found - uses same 28% miss for 2H weapons
Just give me community approval to change dodge to 6.5%. Did not find explanation in rogues thread though it is easy to check with wws (down at the moment)

Originally Posted by Mindrila
I will look through the combatlog tommorow to investigate the thing if it only procs a MH swing or not. (At least this could be changed in Yos simulator then for the sake of correctness)
I will change model if needed according to your final test results.
#7878SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
I could have sworn that we ruled in on this a couple of weeks ago and it was decided that the rogue website was dyslexic and that it was actually 5.6%.
#7879SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I don't think I'll be attempting/aiming to obtain more than 4-5% anti-dodge.

Reason being that the extra few points will not be helping me on trash or regular mobs, so in the long run, the advantages of capping versus a boss might really just equalize that stat weight.

Might pick up an extra item to cap it just for boss fights though.
#7880SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Well, you will really want the three new pieces of tier 6 (since there are no alternatives),
[Skyshatter Wristguards]
[Skyshatter Girdle]
[Skyshatter Greaves]
giving you 68 expertise rating or 18.5 expertise. That's 4.6% and should be enough.

For bosses or until you have your three pieces, you may want to wear [Shard of Contempt] and maybe add [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] and/or [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths].

Wearing Shard + DST should be the best combination until you are deep in sunwell content, where "Blackened Naaru Sliver" (that haste/battletrance one in the right bottom of the trinket section) could be nice, tough.

And for trash you will really want loads of expertise, since the mob's %parry from the front is higher than %dodge from the back and reducing it to avoid parry bombs on your tank is what you want (since you can't be on every camp 100% behind the mobs).
#7881SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Grung
Being a former rogue i can confirm there was something with hit/dodge mechanics in 2.3

The change was from Weapon skill to expertise rating, which changed things around quite a bit for the rogues who previously had +10 weapon skill from talents.
*EDIT* Was it actually in 2.3 it was changed ? Seems so long ago.

I never had enough weaponskill/expertise on my gear to actually be near the cap, so i didn't research the final conclusion of it.

With this new shaman and the new trinket coming out in 2.4 it all of the sudden became more important to me.

Im sure some of the rogues did in fact research this, and passed wws logs, but so far i cant find the results.

On a totally different note, is there something about the testing of procs and things like that i miss?

It seems most people test on the mobs in blasted lands, but i would think the spirits in Diremaul North would be much better. They don't hit back, and you can hit them in the back for 10+ hours while being afk. Are they special, or do people just use blasted land mobs because they are easy to get to ?

Last edited by Grung : 03/14/08 at 6:16 AM.
#7882SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Originally Posted by Grung
On a totally different note, is there something about the testing of procs and things like that i miss?

It seems most people test on the mobs in blasted lands, but i would think the spirits in Diremaul North would be much better. They don't hit back, and you can hit them in the back for 10+ hours while being afk. Are they special, or do people just use blasted land mobs because they are easy to get to ?
Well for me, I just didn't know about those spirits, back before TBC no one wanted to go there with me and now, well no one really cares about old instances anymore. But that's a nice hint and for vast testing I will go there and not blasted lands anymore, sometimes there are some unfriendly people around there messing up the whole testing because they want to kill me...
#7883SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
They are also quite nice to skill all those weapon skills to 350.

Go there, equip weapons, go to work, and when you come home you have 350.

The client tries to log you out since you are "afk" but since you are also in combat it can't log you out, so you end up with a chatlog spammed by blizzard with something like "We will log you out"....."you can't log out while in combat"... repeat.
#7884SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Here we go, from Nite_Moogle's "Working Theories of Theorycrafting as of 2.3" thread -
The estimated amount of Expertise to remove dodge from the combat table against bosses is 23 Expertise (91 Expertise Rating). Parry rates are unknown at this time but are estimated to be higher and are probably variable from one boss to the next.
I'll add that to the expertise section.
#7885SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
4 hr BT run:
(dodged normal attacks + dodged WF + dodged SS)/(landed normal non-crits + normal crits + non-crit WF + WF crits + non-crit SS + crit SS)
Shaman 1, no expertise
(232+88+16) /(2450+1370++1037+488+617+260) = 5.4 % dodges
Shaman 2, no expertise
(128+56+16)/(1144+836+496+282+252+156) = 6.3% dodges
Roques:
Rogue 1, expertise from talents only
(302+81)/(5762+3049+1206+626)=3.6% + 2.5% (talents only, no additional expertise) = 6.1%
Rogue 2, same story
(252+54)/(4821+2638+1005+520) = 3.4% + 2.5% = 5.9%
Meanwhile rogues stealthed to wowwiki and changed dodge there to 6.5%

Edit: 1) I took white + sisnister strike numbers for rogues
2) trash was included - this brings % down somewhat...

Last edited by Yo! : 03/14/08 at 1:31 PM.
#7886SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Rob
So that's a 5.9% average between 4 trials there, hardly conclusive evidence that we've exceeded 5.6%. Hmm. Who's got a lot of spare time and wants to look through their guild's WWS parses?
#7887SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Atren
I guess only way to find it out is someone with Expertise between those two values to check if gets dodge :P

Concerning rogues, did they have suprise attacks? That makes dodging their finishers impossible if i recall right? Since i can see Combat potency i am guessing they did have it.

Also if this is over 4 hours then it will have lot of thrash mobs and especially akama channelers cant dodge anything i believe and so on :P

EDIT: Added some thoughts :P

Last edited by Atren : 03/14/08 at 12:06 PM.
#7888SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
What is our allowable rate of error though? I had a parse that I showed Nite_moogle at one point where I had something like a 15% dodge rate on Windfury but it was simply because of the low numbers of procs.
#7889SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't trash skew the data? Looking at the specific boss fights though, for example, High Warlord, there were 69 melee hits with 6% of them dodged. There were 34 Windfury attacks, 1% of them dodged. I'm not sure the sample size is large enough to be conclusive.
#7890SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Malan
What is our allowable rate of error though?
I don't remember my stats well enough to say how many samples we need to have a 95% confidence that the mean is greater than 5.6%, but I'm sure that such a formula does exist. If someone can chime in that would be helpful.

This would be somewhat useful -- sample size for estimating means:

n is number of samples,
Zc is the critical value for confidence level c (so if we want confidence 95%, we need the Z-value where 95% of the samples are inside the normal distribution,
sigma is s.d.,
E is maximal error tolerance (so this might be like 0.1 if we can tolerate a 10% error)

The formula for "confidence mean is greater than X value" is probably more useful but I don't have my stats textbook on hand.

@ Ilmatar:
Yes, trash would skew the data. I was thinking that Yo summed up the boss numbers, didn't check to see if that was the case.

Last edited by Rob : 03/14/08 at 12:50 PM.
#7891SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
I just glanced at the numbers, but the hit counts that Yo was summing seemed to be the ones from the log overview, and not from specific bosses.
#7892SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
The only way to do this correctly is to add expertise as slowly as we can around where we feel the cap is (post 2.4 of course) and see when we push them off the table.
#7893SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
It is difficult to "add expertise as slowly as we can," because it's always in big blocks (10 ER or more) and often in odd quantities. I suppose some braniac could mine all the gear with expertise and set us up with combinations that amount to even "steppings" between 20 and 25 Expertise, and then some poor sap could go farm all said gear. But we don't need it.

If we find enough parses of enough boss fights with no adds and consistent dodge mechanics from non-Orc shaman with no expertise, we can merge them all together in a spreadsheet and figure out the true dodge rate. One column for dodges, another for every other combat result. (I assumed the Rogue theorycrafters had already done this, that their number was accurate and that it would be the same for shaman.)

Quick reminder:
1) A single parse isn't going to give us enough data to make a determination with any certainty -- we all know you can have bad fights or even bad nights where the "dice" aren't on your side. It would be nice to get something impressive, like a hundred thousand swings worth of data.
2) Some mobs have abilities (e.g. spells) which, when up, removes their dodge chance. Any parse used to determine the dodge rate will need to remove these from the dataset.
3) Trash mobs and level <73 boss adds will have a lower dodge chance than bosses. These would need to be removed from the dataset.
4) Windfury and auto attacks should have the same dodge chance, and I believe that Stormstrike as well. This means that results of all attacks can be merged together for the purposes of determining dodge chance.
#7894SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Chicken
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
4) Windfury and auto attacks should have the same dodge chance, and I believe that Stormstrike as well. This means that results of all attacks can be merged together for the purposes of determining dodge chance.
If Stormstrike is comparable to Mutilate I'm pretty certain that only one of the two attacks it makes can fail to connect, or in other words, if the main hand strike hits, the off-hand strike will automatically hit as well. That'd skew the numbers a bit, since you'd get double Stormstrike hits recorded for each succesful Stormstrike, but only one dodge recorded for a dodged Stormstrike.
#7895SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kahdrick
Originally Posted by automatica
The only time you should find yourself healing on ZJ would be during lynx phase when he focuses on cloth wearers. I'll pop a PVP mana potion if necessary and use SR around 27% to get back to full in that 7%. If you're doing more healing than this, you should have a talk with your healers. =)
Oh believe me, I have talked to them many times. The problem is that my guild isn't big/reliable enough to have a 10-man pro ZA team, so instead we take the first 10 people who fit the raid slots. This often leaves us with 1 good/geared healer and 2 baddies. It's enough to clear, but the rest of us are definitely picking up the slack.

I generally want to play at as pro a level as possible, regardless of the shortcomings of my fellow raiders, so any information that I can bring to the raid with me is helpful. Whether or not faster weapons will regen more mana during SR, for example :P
#7896SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Yo!
Checking if a coin is fair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Assuming that we know definetly that dodge chance is < 10% (therefore E<0.3*Z/sqrt(n), n<0,09*(Z/E)^2):
Total number of proper strikes (white + WF for shamans, white + sinister strikes for rogues) that are needed to determine dodge chance with maximum error of 0,001 (that is 5.7% instead of 5.6% for example) with 95,45% level of confidence = 360,000...
10,000 strikes with same level of confidence provide 0,6% maximum error and that is not acceptable (6% dodge found with 10,000 means it can actually be 5.4% or 6.6%)
100,00 hits provide 0,19% maximum error.
Approximately 13 long (BT) parses with 4-5 dpsers and removed trash and casting (non-dodging) bosses statistics are needed for 360,00 strikes.
Any dodge% reduced by expertise that players have (orcs+axes, gear, talents) has to be added as additional # of dodges for the combined record (if rogue performed 10,000 strikes with 2.5% dodge reduction - add 250 dodges).

Last edited by Yo! : 03/15/08 at 1:37 PM.
#7897SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Grung
Is there anything special that happens around level 70, or would a level 57 tested against level 60 mobs give the same results?

If a level57 could work, we should find someone with a level57 shaman, pop him into DM north, and have him hit the level 60 spirits in there for 24 hours.
#7898SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Veric
Crusade Card

Does the Crusade Card's effects both stack at same time? If they do wouldnt that add 120ap and 80sp, now if mental quickness is talented(like it should be) wouldnt that then convery 30% of add ap to more sp? It would make the card add 120ap and 120sp which is a phenomal sp increase, both effects are easily kept up in an FS/ES rotation, and would greatly benefit personal overall dps. The additional SP would increase FS ticks damage dependent to SP at time of cast, while this would take a full minute to reach this effect, it would still be increasingly large during longer fights, please comment back on this. i have not tested this effect yet as im still collecting cards.
#7899SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Read.The.Thread.

Or at least search in it. The card is less good than it looks because of our high spell miss rate. One shock resist and your spelldamage stacks will fall off.
#7900SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Nightowl@KJ
Hi guys,
need some help here ;-)

the last days i compared my Dragonstrike & Vanirs Right Fist of Brutality, using Yo!´s simulator several times...

To my surprise Dargonstrike was everytime ~10 dps better than the new fist.

This shocked me a little bit, because after reading this thread i thougt the two new fists, are the best choice
for shamans behind the Season3 weapons...

In my Opinion there are 3 solutions:

1. My gear (ssc,heroic badges) is to bad to support vanirs right fist correctly.

2. I´m too stupid to use Yo´s sim correctly

3. Dragonstrike is really better, but only at fights where you don´t move too much
and are able to take advantage of the haste proc every time...

Last edited by Nightowl@KJ : 03/16/08 at 10:42 AM.
#7901SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Yo!
Originally Posted by Nightowl@KJ
Hi guys,
need some help here ;-)
the last days i compared my Dragonstrike & Vanirs Right Fist of Brutality, using Yo!´s simulator several times...
To my surprise Dargonstrike was everytime ~10 dps better than the new fist.
Used your stats from armory to compare 2 brutality fists with dragonstrike+brutality. All default buffs, added crusade as static 120 ap, orc racial selected. Dragonstrike+brutality earned 1225 dps, 2 fists 1227 so with this settings they are almost identical. Buffs that you have can change which one comes first alot.
#7902SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
In preparation for the upcoming patch, I decided to do some weapon comparisons with the sim as well, and found some similar results. The actual DPS numbers seem a little high to me even for theoretical, but I was adding in some raid debuffs that I don't always have but probably will going forward (like CoR), so that could easily account for some of it. I also assumed that I had a [Shard of Contempt] (proc assumed to be ~90 AP passive). Everything is kept the same between attempts other than weapon information (double Mongoose on all, though), and modifying other stats based on stats that come on each weapon.

[Dragonstrike] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]: 1499
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]: 1501

[Dragonstrike] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]: 1513
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]: 1528

The difference between the first two is 2 DPS, while there's a 15 DPS difference between them when I upgrade my S2 OH to the badge OH. I'm sort of puzzled by this. I did all the calculations several times to make sure that I was modifying AP, crit, hit, and haste properly. I could understand a slight increase in preference for Vanir's MH when using the Vanir's OH due to better overall stats compared to Merc Glad's. Is it possible that it's a result of the DS proc messing with OH WF proc chances on a 2.5 speed weapon, and it's just not a problem with a 2.6 speed, so what I'm actually seeing is DS pushing down the potential DPS of Vanir's, instead of inflating that of the Merc Glad's OH?

[edited for typo in an item link]
#7903SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Zula
Hello.

my group is usually composed by

War dps
rogue
rogue
Shammo enha (hi mom)
hunter\dudu or ret pala


usually i love to have ret pala instead of hunter\dudu

which is the best composition which all these? and why my rogues use venom instead of windfury? are venom > WF?
#7904SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Just checked in at LootRank.com for some stuff and they are now supporting filtering of weapon types by speed.
#7905SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Myul
Originally Posted by Zula
Hello.
my group is usually composed by

War dps
rogue
rogue
Shammo enha (hi mom)
hunter\dudu or ret pala

usually i love to have ret pala instead of hunter\dudu

which is the best composition which all these? and why my rogues use venom instead of windfury? are venom > WF?
Group choice from your personal view:
1. Feral
2. Hunter / Ret

But having the Ret in your group is the best choice for his personal dps (Ret without a wf totem is as good as a dps warrior without it..) and putting feral and hunter in another group together should regulary give you the best result.

Are your rogues all mutilate? Only with that specc it could be preferable for them to chose poison over windfury. But without having agilty totem it's a absolute wrong choise. Only poison plus agility totem can compete with wf.
#7906SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
I also tested Dragonstrike vs the Left Hand and found DS to be about equal (+/- 2 dps difference).

This is a case where it would be nice to have some formula by which to quickly compare two weapons of unequal speed.

I started down the path of using Yo's to evaluate the WDPS -> AP, and quickly discovered (as has been mentioned before) that the number is the same for all weapon speeds (though my research showed an 8 AP to 1 WDPS MH conversion, implying that the conversion changes according to your stats).

What did change, however, was the AP -> Total DPS conversion. Slow weapons converted AP to DPS at a higher rate than slow ones given the same stats...at the most extreme, the conversion was around .21 DPS / AP for 1.5/1.5 weapons and .26 DPS / AP for 2.8/2.8 weapons.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/17/08 at 11:47 AM.
#7907SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Soryu
Originally Posted by Malan
[*][Darkmoon Card: Wrath] The value of this card is low once your buffed crit rate is 30% or higher.[/list]
Wouldn't This card still have alot of value in helping you shocks crit if your elemental subspec? Remember that the spell buff and the melee buff are separate effects so a melee crit will only reset your + melee crit bonus, while leaving your +spellcrit boost free to stack all the way up to crazy numbers (or some sort of cap if there is one).

According to a sim run from wowhead comments you would gain:

5% base spell crit --> 5% average spell crit gain. and
41% base melee crit --> 1% average melee crit gain.

Wouldn't that give you around double uptime on your Elemental devastation? Surely worth something.

Another value of it is that it helps reduce unlucky strings off no crits offsetting how likely it is for UR/Flurry to fade or stay down a long time. I don't think I got the math to prove this however but my general feeling is that it would since the stack will grow each time you don't crit.

In the case of UR Fading 10 noncrits in a row (roughly 10sec) would be 7.70% extra crit on your next swing (and growing).

For Flurry it would be 2.31% extra crit on your next swing after 3 noncrits (and growing).

Is this card really as worthless as you claim and do people who subspec elemental in endgame even run with only 5% spellcrit?

EDIT: I just read about our high spellmiss on shocks, But is it possible to get a second try with 5sec cooldowns if you miss one before the buff fades? Gah everything gets so complicated... How big impact does this have?

Last edited by Soryu : 03/17/08 at 4:22 PM.
#7908SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
IIRC, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]'s proc is a single buff that applies both physical and spell crit. That buff is then consumed by either a physical or spell crit, and then you start over (as opposed to [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], which stacks an AP buff and a +spell damage buff separately).

The calculation would be a bit tricky, but for elemental subspec, you'd have to calculate the number of swings you'd expect from WF and auto-attacks (including Flurry) in a 5 second interval, and then calculate the likelihood of you failing to score a single crit in that interval. That would give you both an expected benefit from the spell crit stack and an expected uptime for the stack buff as it pertains to your shock crit rate. From there, you'd have an adjusted spell crit modifier to calculate your expected average shock damage.

And to answer your edited comment, for the situation of a missed/non-shock crit, you'd have to do the above calculation for a 10 second interval and include the shock miss/non-crit probability. A similar calculation is done for computing expected UR uptime. It doesn't take especially high crit rates to get obscenely high UR uptimes.

TLDR: I'm not going to take the time to do the calculations for you, but given that you should be sporting around 30% crit by the time you hit SSC/TK, it really isn't worth it beyond T4 content, and probably not even then (Bloodlust + Hourglass/Abacus is a fine trinket combo, easily obtainable, and can last you up to, if not into, T6 content).

EDIT: I could, of course, be very wrong. But that's my napkin mathematic reasoning, and I'm sticking to it.
#7909SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Prost
Originally Posted by Daler
IIRC, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]'s proc is a single buff that applies both physical and spell crit. That buff is then consumed by either a physical or spell crit, and then you start over (as opposed to [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], which stacks an AP buff and a +spell damage buff separately).
That is exactly how this card works, it applies a single buff for both. I used this card when I was severely under-geared (ie - pre-kara in greens) to help me keep Shamanistic Rage up with pathetically low crit rating. With any decent level of gear, you're critting so much as it is that you're getting hardly any benefit from the buff because nine times out of ten your melee crits will consume the buff not your spell crits.
#7910SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Karok(EU)
@ Rhaegal:

I think you put in some wrong stats somewhere, With the gear I see in your current armory I come up with 1191 DPS (2/5 concussion and the buffs page default). Selecting every single buff/debuff would give 1616 DPS but not verry realistic since it would require: (a) a verry unrealistic group setup and (b) a several out-of-group specs that arent generally in the raid at all times.



I personally just use the base-line buff page with all default settings. Lately I've done some sims of my own to check the DPS differences between certain weapon setups while keeping the gear and other conditions the same. Here are my numbers (Since it's only a DPS and not a AEP calculation I ran each weapon setup for 10.000 hours only which should give a quite accurate DPS estimate). Both main and offhand are assumed to be enchanted with mongoose.

Setup 1: [Dragonstrike] + [Rod of the Sun King] -> 1380 DPS
Setup 2: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] -> 1400 DPS
Setup 3; [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Mounting Vengeance] -> 1412 DPS
Setup 4: [Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim] -> 1386 DPS
Setup 5: [Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Mounting Vengeance] -> 1403 DPS

Ofcourse these 5 setups don't cover the DW S3 axes or DS + <vanir/syphon/mounting> Which might or might not beat the Vanir's + Mounting I sim'd.

[e] On a side note, I also ran a 6th sim using weapon setup 3 and what I thought would be best-in-slot sunwell items. It came out at 1686 dps, quite a nice upgrade

Last edited by Karok(EU) : 03/17/08 at 6:41 PM.
#7911SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Soryu
Originally Posted by Daler
IIRC, [Darkmoon Card: Wrath]'s proc is a single buff that applies both physical and spell crit. That buff is then consumed by either a physical or spell crit, and then you start over (as opposed to [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], which stacks an AP buff and a +spell damage buff separately).
Ah yes ofcourse Im confusing It with Crusade, Ive used both of them but argh, why would they put in two very similar cards and give them totally different mechanics :S
#7912SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Blazingwater
Any help here?

My guild has recently recruited another enhance shaman, and I'm having some issues with him.
He has stated that yes, he has seen this site and the OP, but refuses to follow any of it. One thing is he uses a Slow/Fast weapon combo. Yet he uses WF/WF. He says that he dagger procs are still pretty big with WF and it's better because he gets more flurry/UR/SR procs with the dagger, which is better (in his mind). He also sockets AP, stam, and hit gems. I could see the stam gems because he does do a lot of PvP (yet has a rating of 1449). And his spec? WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator I admit, it could be worse. The only half-decent part of him is his armor. He's got the right idea about that (minus the trinket). Armory link is: The World of Warcraft Armory

Does anyone have any advice as what I should do about him? Any arguements that could help him, or anything that he could do? He argues that that's his play style, and I've got mine. I've just nearly given up on him.
#7913SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Devnex
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
My guild has recently recruited another enhance shaman, and I'm having some issues with him.
He has stated that yes, he has seen this site and the OP, but refuses to follow any of it. One thing is he uses a Slow/Fast weapon combo. Yet he uses WF/WF. He says that he dagger procs are still pretty big with WF and it's better because he gets more flurry/UR/SR procs with the dagger, which is better (in his mind). He also sockets AP, stam, and hit gems. I could see the stam gems because he does do a lot of PvP (yet has a rating of 1449). And his spec? WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Shaman -> Talent Calculator I admit, it could be worse. The only half-decent part of him is his armor. He's got the right idea about that (minus the trinket). Armory link is: The World of Warcraft Armory

Does anyone have any advice as what I should do about him? Any arguements that could help him, or anything that he could do? He argues that that's his play style, and I've got mine. I've just nearly given up on him.
Some people are beyond help. If he's still in the recruitment process get him cut. "Play style" isn't a valid excuse for willful ignorance.
#7914SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Enzyte
Gems are all wrong and using a fast off hand is just a big no no. I can't even imagine what his dps is like on WWS.


I would suggest him to change his ways or just kick him....there are other shaman out there that are willing to listen
and better themselves.
#7915SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Does anyone have any advice as what I should do about him? Any arguements that could help him
The first post (which he says he read) holds all the (extremely solid) math. If that isn't enough for him, get rid of him. And try telling him NOT to jump out of the window, you could do mankind a favor.

To not be completely unconstructive:
- SR: yes, it might proc more, but he shouldnt have problems filling his mana if he is geared correctly
- UR: If the uptime isnt 100%, he should turn autoattack back on
- Flurry: Right, fast weapon, crits more + hits more. Guess what this will do to your flurry
#7916SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Blazingwater
Ah...If only I could kick him. My guild's a very casual guild, and at the moment we're looking for raiders that can raid our times, are friendly, and have ok-decent gear. The only reason someone would get a /gkick would be because they were being completely rude and such. Our GM is a resto shaman, and one of her good friends that's she's known from basically the begining of when she played WoW is the shaman class leader (enhance actually). My class leader has the right spec and gear and such (minus the hunter PvP gear (agil instead of str)), but still has 1 +hit gem I believe...

So, I'm stuck with the newbie. All I can do now is to try and work him to be viable on the damage meters. I've actually gotton him to use slow/slow on one raid through the trash because I've been pushing him so much. Thing is he really made me look like an asshole in the process.
#7917SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Well he's wrong about the Flurry uptime anyways because the dagger will be consuming the charges faster than he can produce them.
#7918SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Blazingwater
Now to pund that in his head...

Oh, and on another note, it seems like we have another enhance shaman my GM is looking to try on one of our kz runs. Sad part is he has a fast OH, hit gems, etc... Let's see if this one will cooperate. It's amazing how many enhance shaman there are out there that don't know how to play their class to the fullest.

Excuse me while I try to make a minion.
#7919SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
This is what's wrong:
- Spec: Concussion? Toughness? WTF? His spec is pretty random at best.
- Gems: Hit gems are just stupid along with using AP gems over str. Wrong meta.
- Weapons: As stated, the fast OH is pure failure.
- Enchants: GG AP enchant on bracers, AC on cloak and +9 stam on boots.
- Trinkets: [Romulo's Poison Vial] is just bad.
#7920SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
It's amazing how many enhance shaman there are out there that don't know how to play their class to the fullest.
Its really not amazing at all though. The mechanics of this game and this class in particular are very counter intuitive in many ways. If you don't puzzle out the probabilities involved than something like DWing daggers can look pretty appealing.

I take a pretty soft approach when I see people on my server or in a BG doing things "incorrectly" and I try to give them some help if they haven't ever read any of this stuff. If someone researches and just chooses to ignore it, than yah at that point I'll label them as idiots.
#7921SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skrummel
Hi I'm new to the forums.


Tried to use the search tool but couldn't find what I was looking for.

This is my shaman:

The World of Warcraft Armory

I know I'm missing relic and another trinket :P


Here's my question:

As you can see on my items, I have some armor ignore, which I, before reading the OP, thought would be good, but the op states that it isn't all that good, except if you get near unobtainable amount of armor ignore.

I have 392 as is, and wondering how much armor ignore is the OP talking about?

And how much armor ignore matches haste?

Through items I have access to(but haven't dropped yet or missing badges for), I can get it to about 800, which coupled with executioner would be around 1600 when it procs.

So how much is optimal, and should I focus more on haste rating than armor ignore?
#7922SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Karok(EU)
@ Rhaegal:

I think you put in some wrong stats somewhere, With the gear I see in your current armory I come up with 1191 DPS (2/5 concussion and the buffs page default). Selecting every single buff/debuff would give 1616 DPS but not verry realistic since it would require: (a) a verry unrealistic group setup and (b) a several out-of-group specs that arent generally in the raid at all times.
Entirely possible. I did add a lot to the buff page, though, because my guild runs extremely heavy physical DPS, and we stack all sorts of things. We almost always have a Survival Hunter, always have imp BS and LotP and often Improved Judgment of Crusader and Sanctity Aura (though I can't remember if those are options in the sim), and obviously CoR. We only have one rogue, and he only raids occasionally, so our primary melee group tends to be more along the lines of: Enh Shaman + Ret Paladin + Feral Druid + Arms Warrior + Fury Warrior, so Blood Frenzy is up, too. I think I also logged out with a few PvP pieces (trinkets, mainly) on when you would have been armorying me, so add the effects of a [Bloodlust Brooch] and [Shard of Contempt]. Would all of those things plus new weapons add up to the 300 DPS difference between my calculations and yours? I don't know. I'm not saying I didn't mess up my calculations, just that I checked them 3 or 4 times every time I ran it, and if it's wrong it's because I don't know how to use it.

Anyway, my original observation hasn't really been addressed, and I'm still curious if anyone else can reproduce it with their gear. Specifically, does the DPS difference between [Dragonstrike] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] become larger when going from a 2.6 speed OH to a 2.5 speed?
#7923SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
My guild has recently recruited another enhance shaman, and I'm having some issues with him.
...
Does anyone have any advice as what I should do about him? Any arguements that could help him, or anything that he could do? He argues that that's his play style, and I've got mine. I've just nearly given up on him.
You're a casual guild. You got to live with folks like this.

He's not THAT bad, though. A slow offhand is dumb, but not as bad as a slow mainhand -- he'd maybe gain 7% dps by getting a slow offhand with the exact same stats. His hit rating gems really bug me, but considering maybe 1% of shamans truly understand hit rating I can't hate on them.

The thing that bug me the most is, he specced into Elemental and didn't get reverberation.

All told, I'd say he's doing 85-90% of the dps he COULD be doing with some theorycraft under his belt and 75% of the dps he could be doing if he had actively geared to the theory. Not ideal, but probably not enough to hold back your progression. I say you show him some WWS parses of theorycrafters at the same gear level and contrast them with his. Have him de-equip his offhand and see what his Flurry/UR uptime is. And if he still insists on playing his way, let him. Better to run a 25 man with a few misfits than not run it all due to lack of interest.
#7924SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Skrummel
As you can see on my items, I have some armor ignore, which I, before reading the OP, thought would be good, but the op states that it isn't all that good, except if you get near unobtainable amount of armor ignore.

I have 392 as is, and wondering how much armor ignore is the OP talking about?
You're missunderstanding the OP -- armor ignore is ALWAYS good, at least until you get a few thousand of it. The section at hand is just saying you'd need a whole freaking lot of it to make the Executioner chant better than mongoose. This doesn't mean AI is bad, it means that Mongoose is better than Executioner.

As for "going for haste vs AI," if you know your EP values you just pick the item that has the highest value, you never "go for" any other stat. How much IA is worth one haste? Depends on your gear. KNOW YOUR EP, and you know the answer.

Haste is good, because your autoattacks his faster, which in addition decreases the lag between windfuries and increases your proc rate for some chants and abilities. AI is good because it makes all of your damage more effective. Both are good pretty much forever; e.g. they do have caps but it is impossible to reach them.

I would never say no to either if they added up to higher EP. Nor would I take either one of them if I had a piece with higher EP but NO AI or haste. Thus I have about 200 AI, and about 25 haste.
#7925SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Skrummel
As you can see on my items, I have some armor ignore, which I, before reading the OP, thought would be good, but the op states that it isn't all that good, except if you get near unobtainable amount of armor ignore.
No, that's not what it says at all. It says that the executioner enchant is about equal to Mongoose and only better when you have a lot of Armor Penetration. This doesn't speak at all about what the value of armor penetration on gear is.
#7926SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
There's no +hit "goal" other than 9% including talents... which can be reached with only talents. Once you have that, you don't need more. It will always have some value until you're capped (which you shouldn't ever be), but as stated elsewhere in this thread repeatedly, that value is lower than that of any other stat. Get rid of all your hit and crit gems and replace them with +8 str, and you'll see a noticeable boost to your DPS. Our DPS is completely different from that of rogues, and should not be compared side-by-side in regards to misses.

Of course, you could have just searched the tread for any of the other times people have asked this exact question.
#7927SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Miztify
Thank you for your answer, and your lesson in forum searching too. Sorry - I had done a quick search but just seemed to find a lot of the theorycrafting that left me as confused as when I'd started.
#7928SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
T.K.
Nice work destroying your damage there with your gems! ^^

Really, i don't get why people compare apples to oranges all the time and think they are correct. You...are...not...a...rogue!

If they say that the rogue has tons of +hit more then you, then say "Nice, the rogue knows what he's doing and i know what i'm doing with my class".

Especially at the level of gear you are, the ilevel of it doesn't allow to have AP/str, crit AND hit, thus, you should aim to what it's more beneficial to your dps.

The melee atk table is not as they claim it to be, as you don't check misses first for then check if you can crit/hit/whatever. It's the other way around and as such, as your not at the crit cap, you are not losing damage by not stacking hit as your ultimost stat.

The sim at the front page is your friend and can give you the answers. Try it with a all str/str+crit gem setup and with your current gems and see what get's you more dps. Trust what it shows you.

So you have an idea that what i'm talking about is true...when i applied to my current guild they're still up to down Vashj back in the days and the guild i was at the time didn't even allow me to raid all the time because i was enhance. The guild i applied to, during my apply at their foruns asked me about my hit rating and why it was so low. I explained them the enhance mechanics and showed them reference to where i found that (here^^).

We are farming Illidan for sometime now, and they never refused getting me in or listening to me. They trust me and allow me to go for the gear i say them i need, because they realized i knew what i was doing with my class.

Last edited by T.K. : 03/18/08 at 11:44 AM.
#7929SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Blazingwater
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
He's not THAT bad, though. A slow offhand is dumb, but not as bad as a slow mainhand -- he'd maybe gain 7% dps by getting a slow offhand with the exact same stats.
I assume you mean a fast weapon?

Originally Posted by Malan
I take a pretty soft approach when I see people on my server or in a BG doing things "incorrectly" and I try to give them some help if they haven't ever read any of this stuff. If someone researches and just chooses to ignore it, than yah at that point I'll label them as idiots.
I do/have done the same thing. I don't go right up to em and be like "I'm right, you're wrong lolololol!!1!". Whenever I have the time to talk to an enhance shaman, I'll point him to this place, and tell him he could be doing so much more with his gear. Sad thing is that some of them just don't listen.



On another note (a bit random one too), do you guys know how much dps the 4 piece bonus of the Gladiator's set adds? Or it's EP value? I'm not looking for that to use, but I'm a bit curious.
#7930SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Miztify
Thank you T.K., I appreciate your reply, I'll work on stripping out the +hit gems tonight : )
#7931SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3xiaoxin21
I noticed on the main page at the T6 gear value , the value of AP'sEP is missing, is it stilll 1 EP? Also aglilty value didnt note whether kings is taken into account.

Also it seems that from what is shown, the value of hit increases as your weapon/armor gets better(guessing due to white damage being more significant) and the value of crit drops. Is it possible to reach a gear stage where per point, hit is better than crit?

If it is possible, what would be the hit cap for an enhancement shaman?
#7932SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mindrila
Originally Posted by xiaoxin21
I noticed on the main page at the T6 gear value , the value of AP'sEP is missing, is it stilll 1 EP? Also aglilty value didnt note whether kings is taken into account.

Also it seems that from what is shown, the value of hit increases as your weapon/armor gets better(guessing due to white damage being more significant) and the value of crit drops. Is it possible to reach a gear stage where per point, hit is better than crit?

If it is possible, what would be the hit cap for an enhancement shaman?
The AP's EP is always 1, all EP values are normalized to this point, making strength always worth 2 EP (2.2 with kings)

Well just read the text and not only look at the numbers and even if you only look at the numbers you could see 2.2 for strength which clearly says all values are including BoK:
These values were contributed by forum member Sebudai based on an end-game T6 gear set, essentially with best-in-slot items for all slots. These should be viewed as a rough estimate for shaman entering T6 content, and include Blessing of Kings.


Just guessing at your second question, if you are critcapped than hit is better than crit and if you ever reach that point your hitcap will be at 28%.
#7933SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by xiaoxin21
I noticed on the main page at the T6 gear value , the value of AP'sEP is missing, is it stilll 1 EP?
I have corrected that.
#7934SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Juzin
There's a discussion @German WoW-forums whether haste reduces the wf-cd ...

WoW-Europe.com Foren -> Windfury cooldown und haste? << perhaps few of you understand German...

Grognaz had written an addon that tracks the intervall between 2 wf-proccs and got few interesting values...
Some other shamans tested this addon as well and all got minimum intercalls < 3sec...

Either that addon has a mistake in it (dunno, I didnt test it yet) or the wf-cd is reduceable by haste

Maybe you wanna test it, too, and get few reliable conclusions out of that ^^

Greets,
Juzin


PS sry for my English
#7935SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Calling all mathematicians

Having discussed this briefly via PMs with Malan and Disquette, it seems clear to me that the equation in section 3.2.3 in the first post is...off. Whether it arrives at the correct values for UR uptime or not, there are parts that seem wholly misguided to me. However, I'm hardly the man to fix it, as it surpasses my skill in mathematics.

In that spirit, I thought I'd throw it out to the masses to see if someone can figure out what's going on, and more importantly, how to fix it.

Here's the calculations as they stand:

UR uptime = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^HitsPer10Sec)*(1-Miss Rate)

HitsPer10sec = ((10 * Num Wpns)/Wpn Spd)*(1-Miss Rate) + (10 * Num Wpns)/(Wpn Spd*1-0.3((1-(Crit Rate*Flurry)))*Windfury+1)

Windfury = 0.2 if Wpn Spd > 3, else 0.36*Wpn Spd/3

Flurry = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^3)*(1-Miss Rate)


My concern boils down to the inclusion of (1-Miss Rate) in what looks like a calculation of expected hits from white damage swings in a 10 second interval, which would ignore Miss Rate entirely thanks to the 1-roll system.

I confess to being at a loss, so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
#7936SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ujin
I've got a question on armor penetration, it seems from the comments that armor penetration scales better the more you have of it. I had always assumed that it would just increase damage by a certain % so, why is executioner suddenly better than mongoose if you have a theoretically a ton of armor penetration?

Also, what is the crit cap? I used to know, but I took a long break and can't remember hehe.
#7937SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Ujin
I've got a question on armor penetration, it seems from the comments that armor penetration scales better the more you have of it. I had always assumed that it would just increase damage by a certain % so, why is executioner suddenly better than mongoose if you have a theoretically a ton of armor penetration?

Also, what is the crit cap? I used to know, but I took a long break and can't remember hehe.
That would be true if the damage mitigation of armor was a linear function, but it is not. There's plenty of useful threads, particularly the prot warrior compendium, that discuss it in detail.

As for crit cap, it varies in relation to your hit and expertise rating. In any case, it's nothing to be concerned with in terms of gearing.

The DW white attack table against a boss (attacking from behind to remove block and parry) is:

Miss: 28% - Hit rate
Dodge: 6.5% - expertise
Parry: 0%
Glancing: 25%
Block: 0%
Crit: Crit rate
Crush: 0%
Hit: Whatever's left.

You should be able to easily figure it out yourself with that.
#7938SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Juzin
There's a discussion @German WoW-forums whether haste reduces the wf-cd ...

WoW-Europe.com Foren -> Windfury cooldown und haste? << perhaps few of you understand German...
Just saw this linked on my guild's forum. Link to the addon:
WFCDT - Shaman Mods - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More!

I'll install it and play around with it.
#7939SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Ujin
I've got a question on armor penetration, it seems from the comments that armor penetration scales better the more you have of it. I had always assumed that it would just increase damage by a certain % so, why is executioner suddenly better than mongoose if you have a theoretically a ton of armor penetration?

Also, what is the crit cap? I used to know, but I took a long break and can't remember hehe.

Just a quick sim test with default values, but increasing crit to 30% (to try and diminish the benefit of mongoose), still had 2x mongoose better than exe/mon at values of ignore armor from 250-1000, only 1000 hours, and with boss armor at 7700

Ignore Armor 2x Mongoose DPS Exe/Mon DPS
250 1208 1203
500 1225 1222
750 1243 1239
1000 1263 1259
1250 1282 1278

Now drop armor down to 4100 (typical well geared arena clothie)
Ignore Armor 2x Mongoose DPS Exe/Mon DPS
250 1539 1533
500 1570 1553
750 1602 1573
1000 1621 1584
1250 1622 1585

Frankly, I'd be curious to see what values would even give EXE a significant boost. It makes more sense in arena, where crits are highly mitigated, but otherwise, I just don't see the justification for Executioner, at least via simulator.
#7940SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skrummel
Thanks for your replies

Have another question regarding the OP:

"Attack Power = 1 EP
Strength = 2 EP (2.2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Agility = 1.8 EP (2 EP with Blessing of Kings)
Crit Rating = 2 EP
Hit Rating = 1.4 EP (explanation below at VIII.4 Itemization - Hit Rating)
Haste Rating = 1.48 EP (explanation below at VIII.3 Itemization - Haste Rating)
Armor Penetration = 0.28 EP
Expertise Rating = see the Expertise section below for an explanation"


Haste rating on items comes in flavours of about 30 typically, Arrow-fall from Jan'alai has 30. So 30 x 1.48 ep = 44.4 ep

Shadowtooth Trollskin cuirass from Jan'alai has 210 armor ignore. So is it 210 x 0.28 = 58.8 ep?

I know the other stats influence the overall ep but do I understand the ep values correct here?
#7941SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Mengus
Originally Posted by Skrummel
Thanks for your replies

Have another question regarding the OP:


Haste rating on items comes in flavours of about 30 typically, Arrow-fall from Jan'alai has 30. So 30 x 1.48 ep = 44.4 ep

Shadowtooth Trollskin cuirass from Jan'alai has 210 armor ignore. So is it 210 x 0.28 = 58.8 ep?

I know the other stats influence the overall ep but do I understand the ep values correct here?
Yes, but keep in mind that YOUR EP values may differ, based on your gear. You should always run the simulator, get the EP values for YOUR gear, as what you happen to have picked up, may have very different values from the 'standard' values. I.e. if you have 35% crit and no +hit, hit rating will have a very significant EP Value.
#7942SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Daler
My concern boils down to the inclusion of (1-Miss Rate) in what looks like a calculation of expected hits from white damage swings in a 10 second interval, which would ignore Miss Rate entirely thanks to the 1-roll system.
You're correct, but the whole equation looks pretty wonky to me. Flurry is way off.

Taking another stab:

AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)
Yeah, you need to know FlurryUptime to accurately compute FlurryUptime, just estimate for now.

AASwingsPer10sec=(10 * Num Wpns)/AvgWpnSpd
SSSwingsPer10sec= 2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 x (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag))
SwingsPer10sec = AASwingsPer10sec + SSSwingsPer10Sec + WFSwingsPer10sec
I don't know the equation for AvgWFLag. You can assume somewhere between 1 and 3 procs per 10)

ChanceToNotCritIn10s: (1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer10Sec
UR uptime = 1-ChanceToNotCritIn10s

TimeFor3AASwings= Min ((3 * AvgWeaponSpd / Num Weapons), 10)
SwingsPer3AASwings = (10/SwingsPer10s) * TimeFor3AASwings
ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp=(1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer3AASwings)
Flurry uptime= 1-ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 03/18/08 at 5:23 PM.
#7943SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
No math needed. Neither Miss chance not dodge chance has any affect on crit chance due to the attack table, so yes -- the inclusion of that clause of the equation is incorrect.
On white attacks, yes. But on WF procs and SS, both do (though only dodge in practice since we're all hit capped on yellows).

And flurry uptime should take into account expected crits from WF, so it should still be pertinent, I'm just not sure how to translate all that into a closed formula.
#7944SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skrummel
Originally Posted by Mengus
Yes, but keep in mind that YOUR EP values may differ, based on your gear. You should always run the simulator, get the EP values for YOUR gear, as what you happen to have picked up, may have very different values from the 'standard' values. I.e. if you have 35% crit and no +hit, hit rating will have a very significant EP Value.
Ah I see, thanks
#7945SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Raut
Just saw this linked on my guild's forum. Link to the addon:
WFCDT - Shaman Mods - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More!

I'll install it and play around with it.
Don't bother. Someone brought this same nonsense up a few weeks back, reposted from one of the other official boards, and it was already shot down.
#7946SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lujaar
Originally Posted by Mengus
Frankly, I'd be curious to see what values would even give EXE a significant boost. It makes more sense in arena, where crits are highly mitigated, but otherwise, I just don't see the justification for Executioner, at least via simulator.
As far as I can tell it takes full BT/Hyjal gear and a low-armor mob to make mongoose/exe better. Exe beats out mongoose for me on a sundered mob with 6200 armor, but just barely.
#7947SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3kemper12
I was wondering if anyone has any idea of how much a prot warrior's threat is increased by having an enhancement shaman in the group. This would be a 2nd enh shaman, our melee dps already has one.

We have just cleared BT and our dps (warlocks/mages) are already near being threat capped with none of them having 4piece t6. Our MT is good, but with our locks pulling close to 2k dps on some fights, it has become a general concern about threat when they should get 4piece t6.

If someone knows a link to a post directed at this or could supply some input; I would appreciate it.
#7948SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Daler
Having discussed this briefly via PMs with Malan and Disquette, it seems clear to me that the equation in section 3.2.3 in the first post is...off. Whether it arrives at the correct values for UR uptime or not, there are parts that seem wholly misguided to me. However, I'm hardly the man to fix it, as it surpasses my skill in mathematics.

In that spirit, I thought I'd throw it out to the masses to see if someone can figure out what's going on, and more importantly, how to fix it.

Here's the calculations as they stand:

UR uptime = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^HitsPer10Sec)*(1-Miss Rate)

HitsPer10sec = ((10 * Num Wpns)/Wpn Spd)*(1-Miss Rate) + (10 * Num Wpns)/(Wpn Spd*1-0.3((1-(Crit Rate*Flurry)))*Windfury+1)

Windfury = 0.2 if Wpn Spd > 3, else 0.36*Wpn Spd/3

Flurry = (1-(1-Crit Rate)^3)*(1-Miss Rate)


My concern boils down to the inclusion of (1-Miss Rate) in what looks like a calculation of expected hits from white damage swings in a 10 second interval, which would ignore Miss Rate entirely thanks to the 1-roll system.

I confess to being at a loss, so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Just throwing in my 2cents here to say that I agree with Daler's assessment. Here's a repost of my PM to him, in part, on this topic:

first off, the problem is that the exponent in the first formula shouldn't be "hits per second", it should be "attacks per second", because crit is (mostly) independent of hit.

secondly, the flurry rate also should have no "miss" term in it, for the same reason.

thirdly, since yellow damage is on a 2-roll system, you should technically have a dodge component (and thus expertise as well) in the flurry calculations, because a dodge *can* push a would-have-been crit off the yellow damage attack table. Ironic that white attacks are "better" at proc'ing flurry than yellow attacks, no? :-) stinking 2 roll systems, haha.

fourthly, I can't say it's wrong, because I haven't thought it through, but I don't know how the windfury component was deduced. It's a neatly acting formula though, so if it's right, mad props to whomever thought of that way of expressing it. I don't know why it's not showing 2 chances to proc flurry per windfury occurrence though. It looks like it's just showing one.

fifthly, in the denominator of the 2nd equation: hitsper10sec, think about what would happen if your crit rate goes up...:

crit goes up, so 1-crit*flurry goes down. To simplify, call that "Y"
Y goes down, so the equation:
Speed - 0.3*Y*wf +1 goes up. to simply, call that "Z"
"Z" goes up, so the second term of "Hitsper10sec":
10*NumWpns / Z goes down.

I don't know why if your crit rate goes up, you'd expect a decrease in the number of flurried attacks. This equation seems horribly wrong so far.

sixthly, where is stormstrike in all of this?

This equation might somehow, through things I'm missing, end up being right. But if so, it's in ways that I'm not seeing. I'd probably prefer to redo this thing from scratch, tbh.
I obviously haven't taken the time to redo the equations, but unless I'm missing something, I think that they need some attention.
#7949SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Juzin
There's a discussion @German WoW-forums whether haste reduces the wf-cd ...

WoW-Europe.com Foren -> Windfury cooldown und haste? << perhaps few of you understand German...

Grognaz had written an addon that tracks the intervall between 2 wf-proccs and got few interesting values...
Some other shamans tested this addon as well and all got minimum intercalls < 3sec...

Either that addon has a mistake in it (dunno, I didnt test it yet) or the wf-cd is reduceable by haste

Maybe you wanna test it, too, and get few reliable conclusions out of that ^^

Greets,
Juzin


PS sry for my English
I would suggest that before anyone does haste testing

1) use a shaman without any haste gear (and use a PTR toon if you have it, or burn some gold on respec'ing to not use flurry).

2) Beat on a servant in the blasted lands for 30 min

3) Find out if any WF magically happened under 3 sec from the last

I personally haven't done this, but I was involved in the sludge of a thread in the official forums. My rebuttal to this hypothesis, and his rebuttals in turn, can be found here:
WoW Forums -> WF Cooldown and Procrate Debunked
#7950SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by kemper12
I was wondering if anyone has any idea of how much a prot warrior's threat is increased by having an enhancement shaman in the group. This would be a 2nd enh shaman, our melee dps already has one.

We have just cleared BT and our dps (warlocks/mages) are already near being threat capped with none of them having 4piece t6. Our MT is good, but with our locks pulling close to 2k dps on some fights, it has become a general concern about threat when they should get 4piece t6.

If someone knows a link to a post directed at this or could supply some input; I would appreciate it.
There is a discussion of the threat from Windfury Totem in the OP here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/

Short version: Assuming unlimited rage, Windfury Totem provides ~40 TPS. If it's a fight where the tank is rage limited, it could be significantly more, but that will vary quite a lot depending on the fight and the tank's gear and can't really be estimated.
#7951SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Raut
Originally Posted by Malan
Don't bother. Someone brought this same nonsense up a few weeks back, reposted from one of the other official boards, and it was already shot down.
Ah. I just saw a bunch of gibberish in German and thought it was something ninja introduced. Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread before. Hoax, shit addon or nazi overlords trying to overthrow enhance shamans?
#7952SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Raut
Ah. I just saw a bunch of gibberish in German and thought it was something ninja introduced. Haven't seen it mentioned in this thread before. Hoax, shit addon or nazi overlords trying to overthrow enhance shamans?
Flawed testing. They got WF procs less than three seconds apart while wearing haste gear, and concluded that it was because the haste reduced the cooldown. Later testing showed that it was possible to get procs less than three seconds apart with zero haste (linked to by Disquette above), and showed that there was no correlation between haste rating and shortest gap between WFs. The gap between hits and the resulting WF proc is nowhere close to constant (glancing at some logs, I see gaps from .2 seconds to .9 seconds), so lag satisfactorily explains why this is possible.
#7953SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3david0925
Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.

(And i hope this is actually a legit question)
#7954SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Morelis
Originally Posted by david0925
Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.

(And i hope this is actually a legit question)
The proc rate was adjusted a while back and seems to be much more accurate now.
#7955SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Radditz
have a question about the simulator too regarding the input stats for hit% .. just input my armory/ingame hit: 9.45% (149) or WITH talents: 18.45% ? because my hitchance is about 91% with talents against lvl73 but the sim suggests a fairly high 1.28 (and even higher before some items with 1.45) value for hitrating and i thought reaching the hitcap is almost useless for us.

for example take my [Worgen Claw Necklace] against my [Mithril Chain of Heroism]. with the sims suggested values the Worgen Claw Necklace is better then the Mithril Chain of Heroism but for my understanding Mithril Chain of Heroism gives me more (especially with kings)

i know my gear is ... not so good im just collecting for a few weaks because i was resto before... the trinkets and rings are the best i can get in this time.. . maybe someone can overlook my char and give me a quick estimation if i had made some big errors in itemization/gems/enchants.
thank you very much

P.S. hope you understand me..english is not my primary lang
#7956SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Thorrgal
Originally Posted by david0925
Question about Yo!'s simulator. Does it still value the Dragonstrike proc a lot higher than its supposed value? Because when i run the sim I keep on getting Dragonstrike + Rising Tide > Rising Tide + Syphon, yet RT+Syphon is considered the better pair.
I have Exactly the same concern. I know the procc was fixed a while back, and I also remember when Dragonstrike was considered the best MH. Then this was changed and Dragosntrike was second option in MH slot after RT or Syphon..I didnt pay a lot of attention back then cause I thought I'll never reach Ilidan hehe. Anyway, now that I have and that I am first in line for the next Rising Tide and Syphon to drop, I did some calculations even if I thought a pair of Syphones or RT+Syphons would be the best as the OP say.

The results of the simulator were quite disturbing though, because Dragonstrike+ RT or Dragonstrike+ Syphon consistently performs better than RT+Syphon or Syphon+ RT....even more so, Dragosntrike + Merciless Gladiator Pummeler is almost the same as RT+Syphon or Syphon+ RT..

So taking into account Rhaegans post a page back comparing Dragonstrike with the sunwell fists that also showed Dragosntrike performing oustandingly, are we missing something here??

Is Dragosntrike really better than (or as good as) Rising Tide or Syphon for the MH?

or

Is the Simulator somehow giving wrong results?

or

am I missing something here? :P

Also, are RT and Syphon really the same or is Syphon better? (providing the perform the same without taking into account the Syphon's procc)

PS: Actual Data from the Sims for my base stats. ( AP:1502, Hit: 22.13, Crit:32.61, Ex:2, Haste:0, AP:192, STR:271, AGI:277)
[Dragonstrike] + [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]----------->1374 DPS
[Dragonstrike] + [Rising Tide] -------------------------------->1381 DPS
[Dragonstrike] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]------------------>1376 DPS
[Rising Tide] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]-------------------->1373 DPS
[Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Rising Tide] ------------------->1375 DPS
[Syphon of the Nathrezim] + [Syphon of the Nathrezim]----->1379 DPS

PSS: On a side note, how do you guys input the procc of the Syphon? I think most of the people just ignore it but playing with the search tool I found out someone saying ist the equivalent of 3000-4000 dmg per 5 min fight or 2350 dmg in a particular 3mins teron fight if DW syphons, so around 6 dps per syphon...That wouldnt change the fact that Dragosntrike is the best or just the same as the best (apart from S3) option for MH, will just make Syphon>>>RT (again contradicting OP)

Sorry for this long post mates, just wanted to know what is the best option before chosing one combo or the other, and maby helping the community by pointing what could be a discrepancy on the simulator, wich is a anyhow a wonderful wonderful tool (special thanks to YO!)

Last edited by Thorrgal : 03/19/08 at 12:14 PM.
#7957SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3david0925
Good to see that I'm not the only one with this result.

For those that have some time to run the test for the sake of consistency, here are my stats:
1620AP (1560AP + 60AP from use effect of Berserker's call)
27.45% Crit
18.64% Hit
2.35% Haste
Spell Hit: 3%
Spell Crit: 5%
Strength: 288
Agility: 346
#7958SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Radditz
have a question about the simulator too regarding the input stats for hit% .. just input my armory/ingame hit: 9.45% (149) or WITH talents: 18.45% ? because my hitchance is about 91% with talents against lvl73 but the sim suggests a fairly high 1.28 (and even higher before some items with 1.45) value for hitrating and i thought reaching the hitcap is almost useless for us.

for example take my [Worgen Claw Necklace] against my [Mithril Chain of Heroism]. with the sims suggested values the Worgen Claw Necklace is better then the Mithril Chain of Heroism but for my understanding Mithril Chain of Heroism gives me more (especially with kings)
Whenever I've generated EP values for myself at various gear levels, I've always found 1 hit rating to be worth more than 1 AP, so I wouldn't call 1.28 fairly high. Mine generally hovers between 1.3 and 1.5, not straying very much from the values listed as "generic" EP values in the OP. For me, the two necks are identical (I think the chain pulls ahead by 1 EP) with kings, with [Worgen Claw Necklace] pulling slightly ahead by 5-6 EP when I don't have kings. Your mileage may vary, depending on what the sim gives you for agility values.
#7959SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Disquette
I obviously haven't taken the time to redo the equations, but unless I'm missing something, I think that they need some attention.
Did you see my attempt to restate them?

There are a number of obvious problems with that the old equation -- for example, the effect of Flurry on weapon speed isn't calculated as Speed * (1-.3), it's calculated as Speed / (1 + .3). And the Flurry Uptime calculation doesn't take into account WF or SS mechanics at all, even though these may count for 60% of all crits.

The real key here is Average Speed, something which it should be easy to calculate in-game but is a bit harder to flatten because it feeds back to itself, and the number of windfuries per 10s (related to the average windfury lag, something which also should be easy to calculate in-game).
#7960SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Dukanull
Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.
#7961SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Did you see my attempt to restate them?

There are a number of obvious problems with that the old equation -- for example, the effect of Flurry on weapon speed isn't calculated as Speed * (1-.3), it's calculated as Speed / (1 + .3). And the Flurry Uptime calculation doesn't take into account WF or SS mechanics at all, even though these may count for 60% of all crits.

The real key here is Average Speed, something which it should be easy to calculate in-game but is a bit harder to flatten because it feeds back to itself, and the number of windfuries per 10s (related to the average windfury lag, something which also should be easy to calculate in-game).
The only problem I can see is that dodge rate and expertise aren't taken into account. As Disquette pointed out:
since yellow damage is on a 2-roll system, you should technically have a dodge component (and thus expertise as well) in the flurry calculations, because a dodge *can* push a would-have-been crit off the yellow damage attack table.
I'd imagine that takes effect on both the WF and SS contribution to flurry and UR uptime.
#7962SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Thorrgal
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.

Yes well I might as well wait for the Wotlk and of course get better weapons...point being 2.4 is not out yet, things may or may not change, and I would like to know what to do now...

Anyway, how do you know the badge main hand is better if the simulator may or may not be giving accurate results? Yo himself stated 2 pages back that "with this settings they are almost identical"...

So we have the same question again, if Dragonstrike is similar to the badge main hand and badge main hand+ off hand are just below S3 arena, were does this put the Rising Tide, the Syphon etc on the equation?

It may perfectly be that Dragonstrike + Syphon or DW Syphon are better if not equivalent to the badges MH+OH, so we would save 150+ badges right there, or the DKP equivalent if you want to look it the other way around, and maintaining the Dragonstrike would save both badges and DKP's

Also, getting the Rising Tide would be the wrong choice for both the MH and the OH...

I do need some specific answers mostly because telling my CL that I am passing on an (supposed) upgrade because in "3-6 weeks they will be better stuff" just won't do it....Furthermore, he also reads this forums (hi crazy Scotsman!) and at this moment believes the OP statement of both Rising Tide and Syphon being better than the Dragonstrike, and any combination of those 2 being equivalent to DW Syphons...wich is not clear to be true at all seeing some of the simulation results for me and the other concerned posters

Thanks to all the people that took the time to read this again too long of a post

EDIT:Spelling
#7963SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Hornbreakerz
Is it possible for me to turn EP points into DPS? I'm trying to find out how much the 4piece T4 set bonus would give, but I have no idea how to calculate DPS into EP.

Anyone who knows how to calculate or compare this or have the same problem?




Ps: Please don't post how much it give,s as I would like to calculate it myself.

Ps:Ps: This wasn't possible to search for.
#7964SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Daler
The only problem I can see is that dodge rate and expertise aren't taken into account. As Disquette pointed out:


I'd imagine that takes effect on both the WF and SS contribution to flurry and UR uptime.
I wasn't aware that WF used a two roll system -- thought it was just SS, but I guess that makes sense.

There's also the issue that if the MH swing of an SS is dodged, the offhand is ALSO dodged.

DodgeChance= .065 (or whatever)
YellowHitChance= 1 - Min(DodgeChance - .0025 * Expertise, 0)
MHSSSwingsPer10= YellowHitChance
OHSSSwingsPer10= MHSSSwingsPer10 * YellowHitChance
SSSwingsPer10sec= YellowHitChance + YellowHitChance^2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 * (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag)) * YellowHitChance
#7965SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz
Is it possible for me to turn EP points into DPS? I'm trying to find out how much the 4piece T4 set bonus would give, but I have no idea how to calculate DPS into EP.

Anyone who knows how to calculate or compare this or have the same problem?
Kudos for wanting to do the math yourself. However, if you've used Yo's simulator, which all enh shaman should, you'd notice in the AEP section of the first tab an EP -> DPS value for 1 point of AP.

Since 1 point of AP is always 1 EP, you can use that relation to convert the EP values for the rest of the stats to expected DPS contributions per stat point.

For example, using the default values on Yo's sim (I just went to the sim, set hours to 1k, clicked calculate AEP and run) results in an AP -> EP -> DPS conversion of 1:1:0.2569. Since strength is always valued at 2.2 EP, 1 point of STR = 2.2*0.2569 = 0.56518 DPS.

Just make sure to use your current stats, raid buffs, etc., and you'll be good to go.
#7966SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
automatica
Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz
Is it possible for me to turn EP points into DPS? I'm trying to find out how much the 4piece T4 set bonus would give, but I have no idea how to calculate DPS into EP.

Anyone who knows how to calculate or compare this or have the same problem?




Ps: Please don't post how much it give,s as I would like to calculate it myself.

Ps:Ps: This wasn't possible to search for.
Someone beat me to reply to this post. See post above.

Last edited by automatica : 03/19/08 at 2:06 PM. Reason: Someone beat me to it.
#7967SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Hornbreakerz
Ps:Ps: This wasn't possible to search for.
That's because it isn't yet possible to calculate. Our DPS is a feedback system, meaning that the results of one part of the equation feed another part of the equation which, in part, feeds back into the first. It should be possible to reduce this to an expression, but it will be a) terribly complex and b) will relies on two or three equations we haven't figured out yet.

If you use Yo's simulator -- which you should -- simulating for EP values also calculates the EP->DPS conversion factor. Values vary wildly from .2 to .3 DPS/EP or more. This variation is at least partly a factor of weapon speed -- slower weapons convert EP to DPS at a higher rate than faster ones.

Many of us use .25 as a back-of-the-envelope conversion factor, simply because 4 AP = 1 DPS is easy to calculate. A 40 EP upgrade? 10 more dps.
#7968SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
For the guys with DS/Syphon/RT problems...

I guess you guys didn't understand the hole point of AEP system.

During all this thread we have been trying to get people away from boxed answers, thus directing then to the sim or the formulas, so they could find their specific answers to each specific case. People didn't give straight answers, basically because they would be "bad" answers, as each specific case is unique and totally dif from each other.

The AEPs at front page represents the whereabouts of each stage of gear you should be in, but by no means i ever saw any of the theorycrafters in here stating that you should stick with tha till death.

Those numbers and information means that with the normally acquired itens, with the normally used gems and with the normally used enchants, you should most of the time be around those numbers.

The statement of the weapons is as such. Most of the time you can follow that and you have a great chance of doing right. Though, we have the sim for the exact purpose of showing you what's the best thing for your case.

The sim will show what it looks like at the gear you have atm. For me, the exact same sim you are using shows me that 2x Syphons are a 14ish DPS upgrade from my current DS+Syphon. And the exact same sim shows me that using the 2 new badges weapons nets me a 27ish DPS upgrade.

Neither the sim, nor the theory as it stands for now at least, is broken. They just show what's best for you at the time you do the sim, with your current gear.
#7969SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by T.K.
For the guys with DS/Syphon/RT problems...

I guess you guys didn't understand the hole point of AEP system.
To clarify the discussion thus far... the question is not "zomg which is better i need to kno!!1!" The question is: "Is there something strange that we don't understand going on with the Dragonstrike proc?" It goes beyond EP (which, yes, I calculate for myself regularly), and is a question of in-game vs. simulated mechanics. If the Dragonstrike proc is known to cause issues when using an OH below 2.6 speed (like the new badge OH), then that can't be modeled with EP but is still an important piece of information when planning out one's next few upgrades.
#7970SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3T.K.
that's what i'm saying. The sim shows me that with my gear 2xSyphon is an upgrade over DS/Syphon and the 2 new badge weapons are upgrades on top of that.

I can't see your concern on the sim. It shows me that with my gear, they are upgrade and as you said it, with yours, they are not.

Sorry, english not being my first language might be making me miss what your point is. o.o
#7971SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Lethnon
Originally Posted by Daler
For example, using the default values on Yo's sim (I just went to the sim, set hours to 1k, clicked calculate AEP and run) results in an AP -> EP -> DPS conversion of 1:1:0.2569. Since strength is always valued at 2.2 EP, 1 point of STR = 2.2*0.2569 = 0.56518 DPS.
ok. Let me make sure I get this right.

In essence, 1 EP = .2569 DPS.

So, using the T5 values from the first post:

1 AGI = 1.8*.2569 = .46242 DPS.

Meaning, a mongoose enchant should increase DPS by 55.4904 (approx. since the slight speed increase isn't included)
(120*.46242 = 55.4904).

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, how would you calculate damage into dps? I mean both damage from an effect (such at +150FR from Deathfrost) and +X to weapon damage? I don't want to make the mistake of assuming DPS = DMG.
#7972SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Lethnon
ok. Let me make sure I get this right.

In essence, 1 EP = .2569 DPS.

So, using the T5 values from the first post:

1 AGI = 1.8*.2569 = .46242 DPS.

Meaning, a mongoose enchant should increase DPS by 55.4904 (approx. since the slight speed increase isn't included)
(120*.46242 = 55.4904).

Am I understanding this correctly?

Also, how would you calculate damage into dps? I mean both damage from an effect (such at +150FR from Deathfrost) and +X to weapon damage? I don't want to make the mistake of assuming DPS = DMG.
Kinda. For determining Mongoose's DPS contribution, it'd be easier to run Yo's sim with and without the enchant for 5-10k hours, multiple times for each setup, average them out, and then subtract the difference. You can't expect 120 agi to be up 100% of the time, so that conversion is too simplistic for a proc effect like Mongoose.

As for the latter two questions, it's fairly simple for the plain +X to weapon damage. Let's assume you toss on +2 weapon damage on one ring. For each weapon, that would translate to 2 damage/weapon speed = Y DPS.

For something like Deathfrost, we'd first need to know it's proc rate to calculate the expected DPS benefit. I don't know if something's been done on the PTR to work that out, and you'll probably have to wait for 2.4 to go live for people to start testing it thoroughly (not to mention it could change between now and then). But the basic methodology for something like that is 150 damage * expected number of procs/unit time. Then you can convert whatever that is into DPS.

E.g., let's assume it has a 1 PPM proc rate. So enchanted on 1 weapon, you're looking at 150 damage/60 secs, or 2.5 DPS. That's overly simplistic, ignores haste effects and what not, but that's the general idea.
#7973SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Seidule
Originally Posted by Deadstar
Correct. There'd be no good reason for not making a DestroyTotem macro for EVERY totem, then refreshing them as they're about to run out in a raid setting.



/run DestroyTotem (4)
/castsequence Windfury Totem(Rank 5), Grace of Air Totem(Rank 3)

Works fine.

God I hope this makes it to live.
Since this change made it to live, might wanna put something in page 1 about it?
#7974SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nacht
From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem. With that information, what advantage would it provide including it in the macro then?
#7975SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Thorrgal
Originally Posted by T.K.
The sim shows me that with my gear 2xSyphon is an upgrade over DS/Syphon and the 2 new badge weapons are upgrades on top of that.
Thanks for your input TK. I was, like Rhaegan, concerned on how the sim takes into account th DS procc. Anyway, just out of curiosity, for how much were those convos better? And also, do you input the Syphon procc in anyway into the sim, consider it gives around 6dps as I did, or just ignore it altoguether?

Thanks again
#7976SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rapparee
Originally Posted by Seidule
Since this change made it to live, might wanna put something in page 1 about it?
What do you mean this change is live?
As far as I know, I'll still be raiding 2.3 style tonight.

My tests of it, showed no mana returns on the PTR, but I only did one night of tests. It was a crappy night, whole thing was laggy, I don't have 100% confidence in my tests, so I didn't post the results here. I hope this change goes through, leather wearers will get a decent benefit from it. More important personally is that I'll benefit from it as resto. So I hope it goes through, but I disagree with claiming it as fact, until it is fact.

Edit: for those wondering about Syphon, sometimes when the results are so close that you beg others to tell you there's a definitive answer; use the age-old wisdom of WDF.
Whatever Drops First - solves the problems of all these weapons are so close, I don't know what the RNG holds for my fate. You know your raiding guild better than we do. If you win syphon this week, and 2.4 comes out on Tuesday, and you buy all new badge weapon, then by some miracle Mounting Vengeance drops.... we can't answer if your raid is best served by someone else taking the MV instead of you. We don't know what every melee dps in your guild is currently wielding. No one can know that the very next tuesday your guild will finish a warglaive set. In fact we don't know if your guild has some loot distribution that requires you to sacrifice a duck anytime you get a mainhand upgrade. If so, get some ducks, you know that new weapons are coming.

Last edited by Rapparee : 03/19/08 at 6:28 PM.
#7977SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Nacht
From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem. With that information, what advantage would it provide including it in the macro then?
If I recall right, I too was worried that it wasn't returning any mana when I ran the DestroyTotem(4) command. But for some reason the combat log was registering a mana return for killing the totem. Sadly with the PTR down, it's virtually impossible to go back and double check this unless it works this way on the TTR.
#7978SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Kelvari
Misunderstanding

Everyone I come into contact with in my guild believes that my buffs are just icing on the cake, no more than AI, GotW, Fort, etc. and that i should be able to do as much damage as any pure dps class. I've tried explaining things and showing that I am a buff class and bring much more to a group than other buffs from other classes, and that when considering the dps i bring into the raid, you have to consider how much i increase the damage of those getting my buffs and that my straight dps isn't an accurate representation of all that I bring to the raid. I don't know what I can do to prove this beyond any objection, and question, any shred of doubt, and was hoping that you could clarify this, and validate it in such a way, so that I could post it and prove that my dps and buffs combined is at or better than a single person doing somewhat more pure dps than me.
#7979SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3vorda
Easiest solution is to plug your melee group into their spreadsheets and calculate their total dps with a copy of GenericRogue (so 4x rogue 1x warrior) and then do the same with you + 3 rogue + warrior. (all the spreadsheets have UR, WF and possibly Bloodlust under the buff section)

If that doesnt work, we'll give you the same advice we've given every "I raid with a bunch of retards because casual seems to be a synonym for retardism in some guilds"-post: get another guild.
One with people who have an idea of what they are doing.
#7980SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
You're correct, but the whole equation looks pretty wonky to me. Flurry is way off.

Taking another stab:

AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)
Yeah, you need to know FlurryUptime to accurately compute FlurryUptime, just estimate for now.

AASwingsPer10sec=(10 * Num Wpns)/AvgWpnSpd
SSSwingsPer10sec= 2
WFSwingsPer10sec= 2 x (10s / (3s+AvgWFLag))
SwingsPer10sec = AASwingsPer10sec + SSSwingsPer10Sec + WFSwingsPer10sec
I don't know the equation for AvgWFLag. You can assume somewhere between 1 and 3 procs per 10)

ChanceToNotCritIn10s: (1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer10Sec
UR uptime = 1-ChanceToNotCritIn10s

TimeFor3AASwings= Min ((3 * AvgWeaponSpd / Num Weapons), 10)
SwingsPer3AASwings = (10/SwingsPer10s) * TimeFor3AASwings
ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp=(1-Crit Rate)^SwingsPer3AASwings)
Flurry uptime= 1-ChanceToNotCritWhileFlurryIsUp

Solid start on this, imo, though it still needs some work to be accurate. One example is the AvgWFLag, as you acknowledged. The other is expertise/dodge. Thanks Toots.
#7981SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Last night someone approached me asking if it was true in 2.4 Drums of Battle no longer stack with Heroism/Bloodlust. I said that I wasn't sure, that I had done no additional testing.

According to this patch note:

General

* Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.
That may actually be true. Anyone that perhaps did some testing on this?
#7982SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aximous
Based on that note they should stack since from that two only bloodlust is % based.
#7983SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
I'll be damned, that's what I get for not having any wake up coffee. I'll just let it be there so no one comes in and asks the same (stupid) question. By the way, I went ahead and used the new macros posted a few pages back to totem twist and it was pretty sweet. I managed to keep up GoA for 7/9 seconds of Windfury, whilst shocking at least once per twist. The new global cooldown really makes twisting easier; which is weird, considering they explicitely said they didn't condone of it, yet they made it easier. Thank you PvP I guess, heh.
#7984SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
AvgWpnSpd = (((sum of speeds of all weapons)/ number of weapons) / 1 + (.3 * FlurryUptime)) / 1 + (Haste Rating / 15.7) / (the affect of any other percentile speed reducing abilities such as berzerking, bloodlust, mongoose, etc)
Just to be clear:

AvgWpnSpd = ((MH Spd + OH Spd)/NumWpns) / (1+(0.3*FlurryUptime)) / (1+(HasteRating/15.76)) / (1+(Other % haste increases)

Is that right? It looked like you were missing some parentheses originally. Just want to be sure I've got it right before trying to make sense of this all.

So for a simplified test case let's assume two 2.6 weapons, 0 haste rating, and ignore heroism, etc. Let AvgWpnSpd = X and FlurryUptime = Y.

X = (2.6) / (1 + (0.3 * Y))

Y = 1-((1-Crit Rate)^((10/(20/X + 2 + 2*(10s / (3s+AvgWFLag)))) * MIN((3X/2), 10)))

And upon trying to simplify further, I think my brain blew a fuse.
#7985SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3falonub
Originally Posted by Aximous
Based on that note they should stack since from that two only bloodlust is % based.
Yes, all the haste items we use, aside from bloodlust give a static amount of haste rating depending. Haste pots/Drums of Battle/Dragonspine Trophy increase haste rating, not haste percent per say.

I see the aforementioned change because of PvP, where they changed Power Infusion where it speeds casting by 20%, same with Icy Veins it increases cast speed by 20%.
#7986SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Shalas
Converting that to latex and dropping the min (worring about that case doesn't seem useful), we get:
X = \frac{2.6}{1 + (0.3 * Y)}

\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{\frac{30X}{2}}{\frac{20}{X} + 2 + 2*\frac{10s}{3s+AvgWFLag}}}\right)

Simplifying:
\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15X}{\frac{20+2X}{X}*\frac{20}{3+AvgWFLag}}}\right)

\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+40X}}\right)

\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

\huge Y - 1= \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}

Let U = Y - 1

\huge U = \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3(U + 1)}}}

\huge U = \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}}

\LARGE \ln U = \frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\LARGE \ln U = \frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)}{400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}}

\Large \left(400+\frac{104}{1.3 + .3U}\right)\ln U = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\Large \frac{624+120U}{1.3 + .3U}\ln U = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\frac{624+120(Y-1)}{1.3 + .3(Y-1)}\ln (Y-1) = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\frac{504+120Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = 15(3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)

I have no idea where to go from there, or even if it's going in a useful direction.
#7987SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Vistol
I'm curious if it would make sense to use a flame shock/frost Shock rotation and allow another player in the raid "steal" the storm strike debuff for a net raid dps increase?

I know there are numerous small damage sources that can eat the charge for a net dps loss (poison vials, lighting capacitors, some hunter pets, ect), and threat could also be a limiting factor. However if these issues do not come into play or are only a minor factor, one would think that letting an elemental shaman with their higher spell damage and better spell damage co-efficient with Lb/CL would result in a net dps gain.
#7988SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Daler
Originally Posted by Vistol
I'm curious if it would make sense to use a flame shock/frost Shock rotation and allow another player in the raid "steal" the storm strike debuff for a net raid dps increase?

I know there are numerous small damage sources that can eat the charge for a net dps loss (poison vials, lighting capacitors, some hunter pets, ect), and threat could also be a limiting factor. However if these issues do not come into play or are only a minor factor, one would think that letting an elemental shaman with their higher spell damage and better spell damage co-efficient with Lb/CL would result in a net dps gain.
You don't have to rotate to Fl/Fr. Just start off your normal rotation (Flame/Earth) and there should be enough time on your shock cooldown for an elem shaman to use both charges. Even with an elem subspec, the 5 sec CD is enough to squeeze in a CL and an LB (assuming no one else has that damn romulo vial...but that's a rant for another time).

At the absolute worst, macro a whisper to your elem shaman to let him know when SS is up.

And it's very much appreciated by your elem shaman.

@ Shalas: Many thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to do, but it's been about a decade since I studied math to any degree (god I'm getting old... ).

So now for the AvgWFLag....

Last edited by Daler : 03/20/08 at 3:01 PM. Reason: accuracy, grammer, etc.
#7989SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Nacht
From my testing on the PTR, /run DestroyTotem(4) did not return any mana for destroying the totem.
Did you verify this in the new combat log that no mana was returned?
#7990SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Nacht
Originally Posted by Malan
Did you verify this in the new combat log that no mana was returned?
Yes. I did a rather extensive test. Never once saw mana return in the combat log. I monitored the in-game log, setting it to "self" and also to "everything" to make sure I wasn't missing anything. Also, I recorded the log and went into the text file. No record of mana return for the macro. There is always a record of mana return for Totemic Call. I even created the following macro to simulate the Totemic Call spell.

/run DestroyTotem(1)
/run DestroyTotem(2)
/run DestroyTotem(3)
/run DestroyTotem(4)
The macro destroyed all four totems without returning any mana. There is no record in the log that the totems are destroyed when the /run command is used. Additionally, it destroyed all 4 totems with no GCD. Totemic Call initiates a 1.5s (not 1.0s) GCD, returns mana, and is recorded in the log.

I still have the combat log file saved in my PTR folder for reference, but I'm at work right now.
#7991SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Skiace
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Just wait the 3-6 weeks for patch and buy badge main hand, and grab the offhand off SW25 trash.
This isn't even a fool proof solution, as my sim results are showing the following:


bt + fist----------1251
dragon + fist----1250
fist + fist---------1249
fist + bt----------1244
dragon + bt------1241
dragon + s2-----1236

(Where "bt" is either siphon or rising tide, and "fist" are the badge reward weapons.)


Having just downed Kael last week (vashj already down), it looks like I should be trying to pick up one of the BT weapons and only the off-hand badge fist.
#7992SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rapparee
Originally Posted by Skiace
This isn't even a fool proof solution, as my sim results are showing the following:
bt + fist----------1251
dragon + fist----1250
fist + fist---------1249
fist + bt----------1244
dragon + bt------1241
dragon + s2-----1236
(Where "bt" is either siphon or rising tide, and "fist" are the badge reward weapons.)

Having just downed Kael last week (vashj already down), it looks like I should be trying to pick up one of the BT weapons and only the off-hand badge fist.
To be honest, your top 3 numbers are essentially identical. So if you fully trust the simulator, just buy the offhand fist.

If you're health is low and you die a lot, then cross your fingers that rising tide drops and you are able to get it. (this is situational, the simulator can't tell whether you abilities leave you prone to dying a lot)

The simulator doesn't model the syphon proc, my personal numbers say it's worthy of 3 to 5 dps on its own.
So truly your upcoming highest damage weapon situation (if you are strictly relegated to the choices you simulated above) would be Syphon + badge fist in 2.4.

Unless you didn't modiy your stats to include the individual weapons personal stats, such as AP and additional crit rating.
#7993SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Gehenna
I recently ran two sim that placed Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality combined with S3 offhand as a 5 and 10 DPS respectively increase over S3/S3.

Anyone else had this?

I assume it had to do with the offhand being slower, but I haven't tested it with the weapons reversed.
#7994SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Nacht
stuff
I'm pretty sure that I saw it put a [You] Totemic Recall [74] in my combat log when I did the run command. At first I thought that it wasn't but I kept looking and I'm sure it was returning mana. This was also one of the last builds of PTR before it went down. I could have just been seeing things or really high that night. Seems like I'm the only one who's saying its returning mana, so I could very well be wrong at this point.
#7995SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Unaz
I understand that people wanted to know the value of various pre-2.4 weapons to determine what was an upgrade, but why are dozens of posts being wasted on people who either can't be bothered to run the sim for their own weapon's values, or even worse arguing about something like how Syphon's proc compares to Rising Tide when the season 3 weapons have been shown to out-perform all other weapons currently in the game for us?

Stop fretting about the non 2.4 weapons when you could be getting your season 3 weapons and worrying about your upgrades from there. The theorycraft in modelling weapons in general is great, and figuring out the next upgrades after the patch is great, but getting mired in specifics of inferior weapons when obtainable superior weapons are available just boggles the mind.

And the argument of rating obtainability doesn't fly in a community like this. That's along the same lines of saying you can't kill Naj'entus because raiding is hard so why bother considering Rising Tide.
#7996SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Aximous
Originally Posted by falonub
Yes, all the haste items we use, aside from bloodlust give a static amount of haste rating depending. Haste pots/Drums of Battle/Dragonspine Trophy increase haste rating, not haste percent per say.

I see the aforementioned change because of PvP, where they changed Power Infusion where it speeds casting by 20%, same with Icy Veins it increases cast speed by 20%.
Don't forget it says that only non-self buffs won't stack so bl or pi will stack with icy veins but not with each other.
#7997SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Skiace
Originally Posted by Unaz
And the argument of rating obtainability doesn't fly in a community like this. That's along the same lines of saying you can't kill Naj'entus because raiding is hard so why bother considering Rising Tide.
I don't think it's an invalid excuse when the context is considered. Those of us making these decisions now are obviously still just progressing through t6 content, and aren't in the same league as those who've been farming those zones for 6 months. (who may be bored of the content and find gearing and competing with a sub-optimal pvp spec an entertaining distraction.) There are plenty in this community that have the min-max attitude and have followed this discussion since bc beta, but for whatever reason (personal schedule choices, breaks from the game, etc) are months behind the pack in pve progression. Furthermore, we all know that enhance is in general a weak pvp spec, if not one of the weakest in the game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are shaman out there with access to bt weapons that lack the resources to pick up season 3 weapons.

Last edited by Skiace : 03/20/08 at 7:53 PM.
#7998SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Shalas
\huge Y = 1-\left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

\huge Y - 1= \left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}
Biggest thing I noticed is that your - disappeared. Specifically, the second equation should be:

\huge Y - 1= - \left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

I don't think that helps too much, but even little errors like that can cause huge problems when you're trying to get things to cancel out.
#7999SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Starfox
Originally Posted by Xoya
Biggest thing I noticed is that your - disappeared. Specifically, the second equation should be:

\huge Y - 1= - \left(\left(1-Crit Rate\right)^{\frac{15(3+AvgWFLag)}{400+\frac{104}{1 + .3Y}}}\right)

I don't think that helps too much, but even little errors like that can cause huge problems when you're trying to get things to cancel out.
That turns

\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (Y-1) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)
which is wrong as you stated. Y \in [0,1] \Rightarrow Y-1 \in [-1,0], that would give some problems with that logarithm

just into

\frac{33.6+8Y}{1+.3Y}\ln (1-Y) = (3+AvgWFLag)\ln (1-Crit Rate)
#8000SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Skiace
I don't think it's an invalid excuse when the context is considered. Those of us making these decisions now are obviously still just progressing through t6 content, and aren't in the same league as those who've been farming those zones for 6 months. (who may be bored of the content and find gearing and competing with a sub-optimal pvp spec an entertaining distraction.) There are plenty in this community that have the min-max attitude and have followed this discussion since bc beta, but for whatever reason (personal schedule choices, breaks from the game, etc) are months behind the pack in pve progression. Furthermore, we all know that enhance is in general a weak pvp spec, if not one of the weakest in the game.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there are shaman out there with access to bt weapons that lack the resources to pick up season 3 weapons.
There are a lot of other options other than enhancement to pick up the weapons. I picked up the S1 elemental gear and ran with a 4dps team with 0 experience prior and hit 1850 the first week of S3. Granted, I had amazing teammates, but the spec is really easy to play(purge, purge, purge, heroism, lb, lb, lb, nsemcl, top group off, interrupt important things). I had a friend that hit it pretty early running paladin/shaman/warrior with minimal gear and I'd honestly think at this point in the season 1850 is very accessible if you have even a tiny bit of motivation.
#8001SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Grung
It seems most people test on the mobs in blasted lands, but i would think the spirits in Diremaul North would be much better. They don't hit back, and you can hit them in the back for 10+ hours while being afk. Are they special, or do people just use blasted land mobs because they are easy to get to ?
Kind of off-topic, but... Is there an easy way to get to these? DM is annoyingly buggy these days, and there's lots of groups that you have to kill in order to get there, going the normal way, some of which seem to be chain pulling more groups now. I just spent an hour or so trying to get there and died a few times to strange chain-aggro that shouldn't have happened, and my inner door key magically disappeared during one of the deaths, so I got annoyed and quit. I'm guessing you can't just sneak by Kromcrush, nor would I imagine he be easy even at 70. I'm probably making it a lot harder than it is, if these guys are actually a viable alternative to Blasted Lands mobs... I hope, anyway.

[e] Actually I tried again, and Kromcrush is easy with an earth elemental to play with the adds. Overall it's still a pain to get through solo, though.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 03/21/08 at 1:24 AM.
#8002SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Solomir
Does anybody have Executioner/Mongoose performing equivalently or better than double Mongoose right now? I was surprised to find that running double Mongoose with my current gear would result in a slight increase in dps (about 5 dps). This increase would be the same regardless of weapons (I was testing the dps increase of different weapon upgrades at the time).
#8003SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Draenorm
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.

Last edited by Draenorm : 03/21/08 at 7:27 AM.
#8004SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Oteb
Yo would it be possible to to model in resilence in your simulator? I know i can aritifically lower my crit rating but it does not factor in lowered damage on critical strikes. I plan to gear up for arenas with highest possible damage and I am not entirly sure if 2.11 eap on crit rating is actually better than 2 on str that i see in model.
#8005SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Illundai
Originally Posted by Draenorm
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.

I don't always wait, no. I do tend to wait if I have a lot of GCD incoming at the same time. On Teron I usually don't bother though, I just spam those buttons :P.

And Executioner/Mongoose comes out about 10 dps better for me, too.
#8006SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Oteb
Yo would it be possible to to model in resilence in your simulator? I know i can aritifically lower my crit rating but it does not factor in lowered damage on critical strikes. I plan to gear up for arenas with highest possible damage and I am not entirly sure if 2.11 eap on crit rating is actually better than 2 on str that i see in model.
This is a very Good Question, and there are others related to it, such as armor, that are equally important.

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks (I am preparing to gear up for a run on the arena), and I've come to the conclusion that EP just doesn't cut it for PvP. Personal survivability stats come into play as well, in a way they don't in PvE. I don't know what the answer is -- but in either case, it belongs in the PvP forums.
#8007SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Originally Posted by Draenorm
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.
With mods making this extremely easy, and with Yo!'s sim showing a dps increase being better with waiting all the way up to 3 seconds, why wouldn't you do this naturally? The only reason I would consider not waiting is if I had global cooldown bunching about to happen, which mods also show you.
#8008SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
One thing I've wondered if people have considered is that having an elemental shaman in your raid makes stormstriking on cooldown a little more worthwhile, since more of his lightning bolts will be affected by the debuff. How would we calculate this?
#8009SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Toots Hepcat
Windfury can proc from either autoattacks or stormstrike.

I have a pair of 2.6s weapons, whose average swing time is around 1.98 (after flurry, 2x mongoose, passive haste & Dragonstrike are accounted for).

These weapons swing about 10 times per 10s. Stormstrike swings 2 times per 10s. That means that, in the abstract, Stormstrike accounts for at least 1/6 of my chances to proc Windfury.

However, stormstrike can't miss. Autoattack swings can. I have about 17% to hit, giving my swings an 11% miss chance. This means that I actually have an average of around 8.9 swings per 10s. SS really accounts for around 18% of my WF proc chances.

But all this depends on using SS when Windfury is not on cooldown. You actually don't miss a lot of damage by holding back your stormstrikes, but you potentially gain a lot by shortening the windfury lag.

Shocks and strike should come off cooldown at the same time once every 16s or so. If they come off cooldown and WF is still in cooldown, I shock. If they come off cooldown and WF is NOT in cooldown, I strike. Decision is easy, and I put my WF cooldown counter (Enhancer -- thanks for this wicked tool) just on top of my SS and shock cycle keys on the hotbar so I always have the information I need to make it.
#8010SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Xoya
One thing I've wondered if people have considered is that having an elemental shaman in your raid makes stormstriking on cooldown a little more worthwhile, since more of his lightning bolts will be affected by the debuff. How would we calculate this?
It is my guess that it would be very, very difficult to modify Stormstrike usage by Boomkin/Elemental if there's any rogues. My gut feeling is that it would end up averaging to 'not matter all that much', but it depends on how many SS's you delay, and by how long. Unless the numbers add up to an extra 2 or 3 full Stormstrikes, it probably doesn't matter much at all. My assumption is that the Elemental/Boomkin will get 1/2 of the Stormstrike charges, per SS, on average.

It's entirely possible that I'm 100% wrong.
#8011SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
BTW, the newest version of dqd now supports a /dqd arena flag (thanks Rob!) which changes stormstrike to 9 seconds from the normal 10. I don't have it auto-check for 4 piece gladiator, but you can set it yourself. It also is now translated into french (thanks Fluweel!), and it supports windfury events both as they are now, and as they will be in 2.4 and onwards (Huge thanks to Hedin!).

Enhancer, of course, does a whole lot more than dqd does, but if you want the minimal set of bars, I plan on keeping it updated for stuff like this. My main project going forward will involve playing with Ace3, my rogue mod, and a new graphical affect (I think it's new) which should look pretty cool if I can make it work.
#8012SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Ilmatar
It is my guess that it would be very, very difficult to modify Stormstrike usage by Boomkin/Elemental if there's any rogues. My gut feeling is that it would end up averaging to 'not matter all that much', but it depends on how many SS's you delay, and by how long. Unless the numbers add up to an extra 2 or 3 full Stormstrikes, it probably doesn't matter much at all. My assumption is that the Elemental/Boomkin will get 1/2 of the Stormstrike charges, per SS, on average.

It's entirely possible that I'm 100% wrong.
Just to clarify, if rogues are using DP on the OH and getting WF on the MH and do not have romulo's vial equipped (I hate that f'ing trinket ), then they won't be stealing Stormstrike debuffs.
#8013SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Krom[Fenris]
Originally Posted by Draenorm
Exe/goose turns up a few dps better than double goose for me, even with only 224 armor pen. Base crit is almost 36%, so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

I've got a question of my own. How many of you end game shaman actually wait for windfury cooldown before stormstriking? I've never done this; it didn't seem like it'd make much of a difference since I had dragonstrike and dst. Since I've replaced my dragonstrike, I've been a bit curious. With totem gcd being 1 second in patch, I think the extra work would be worth it if it does in fact increase my dps by 20 like Yo!'s sim suggests.

Just looking for a little bit of feedback, exploring something new should be fun.
I didn't used to, but a few months ago I switched to waiting for the cooldown before SS'ing, and the increase in my DPS was very noticeable. Was like black and white. I very much encourage everyone to do this.
#8014SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Daler
Just to clarify, if rogues are using DP on the OH and getting WF on the MH and do not have romulo's vial equipped (I hate that f'ing trinket ), then they won't be stealing Stormstrike debuffs.
That is definitely the case. Also, our hunters don't use scorpid pets, so that is not a concern. If we assume an average of ~1 second.

Let's assume a 5 minute fight (300 seconds).

Stormstriking on Cooldown w/ twisting
Normal rotation: SS, FS, WF, GOA, ES, SS, WF, GOA, FS, SS, WF, GOA, ES -- repeat. This cycle takes 30 seconds and there is a small area where your shocks are on cooldown, but you don't want to earth shock immediately following the stormstrike application.
# of stormstrikes: 3 (1 SS per 10 seconds)
# of shocks: 2 FS, 2 ES (1 shock per 7.5 seconds)

Assuming stormstrike debuff stays up for 3 seconds (or two lightning bolts, one closely following the stormstrike and one 2 seconds later) every 10 seconds, then we have a straight 30% uptime over 300 seconds.

Stormstriking when WF Off Cooldown w/ twisting
This is where I'm not quite sure how to do things... but if we assume the stormstrike debuff still stays up for 3 seconds, but with a ~1 second delay on every stormstrike (stormstrike every 11 seconds instead of every 10 seconds), then we've got a 27% uptime on stormstrike over 300 seconds. Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's just something I've been tossing around for a while.
#8015SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Daler
Just to clarify, if rogues are using DP on the OH and getting WF on the MH and do not have romulo's vial equipped (I hate that f'ing trinket ), then they won't be stealing Stormstrike debuffs.
Good call, my bad.
#8016SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Xoya
That is definitely the case. Also, our hunters don't use scorpid pets, so that is not a concern. If we assume an average of ~1 second.

Let's assume a 5 minute fight (300 seconds).

Stormstriking on Cooldown w/ twisting
Normal rotation: SS, FS, WF, GOA, ES, SS, WF, GOA, FS, SS, WF, GOA, ES -- repeat. This cycle takes 30 seconds and there is a small area where your shocks are on cooldown, but you don't want to earth shock immediately following the stormstrike application.
# of stormstrikes: 3 (1 SS per 10 seconds)
# of shocks: 2 FS, 2 ES (1 shock per 7.5 seconds)

Assuming stormstrike debuff stays up for 3 seconds (or two lightning bolts, one closely following the stormstrike and one 2 seconds later) every 10 seconds, then we have a straight 30% uptime over 300 seconds.

Stormstriking when WF Off Cooldown w/ twisting
This is where I'm not quite sure how to do things... but if we assume the stormstrike debuff still stays up for 3 seconds, but with a ~1 second delay on every stormstrike (stormstrike every 11 seconds instead of every 10 seconds), then we've got a 27% uptime on stormstrike over 300 seconds. Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's just something I've been tossing around for a while.
That's all well and good, but the uptime isn't nearly as important as what is eating the SS charges. In fact, given that it's a two charge debuff with refreshes coming at best every 10 seconds, I'd say there's really no point at all in calculating the SS debuff uptime. You generally only care about debuff uptime when it's a persistent useful debuff (Imp Scorch, CoE, Misery, etc., etc.). If those fall off, it's a problem. If SS falls off, it almost definitely means those charges were used.

Ideally, it's an elem shaman since boomkin are generally sticking to arcane spells against bosses. If SS and FS are paired together, then even shocking on cooldown shouldn't eat a SS charge before the elem shaman can take advantage of it.
#8017SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Aeolian
Originally Posted by Xoya
That is definitely the case. Also, our hunters don't use scorpid pets, so that is not a concern. If we assume an average of ~1 second.

Let's assume a 5 minute fight (300 seconds).

Stormstriking on Cooldown w/ twisting
Normal rotation: SS, FS, WF, GOA, ES, SS, WF, GOA, FS, SS, WF, GOA, ES -- repeat. This cycle takes 30 seconds and there is a small area where your shocks are on cooldown, but you don't want to earth shock immediately following the stormstrike application.
# of stormstrikes: 3 (1 SS per 10 seconds)
# of shocks: 2 FS, 2 ES (1 shock per 7.5 seconds)

Assuming stormstrike debuff stays up for 3 seconds (or two lightning bolts, one closely following the stormstrike and one 2 seconds later) every 10 seconds, then we have a straight 30% uptime over 300 seconds.

Stormstriking when WF Off Cooldown w/ twisting
This is where I'm not quite sure how to do things... but if we assume the stormstrike debuff still stays up for 3 seconds, but with a ~1 second delay on every stormstrike (stormstrike every 11 seconds instead of every 10 seconds), then we've got a 27% uptime on stormstrike over 300 seconds. Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.

I don't know if that helps at all, but that's just something I've been tossing around for a while.
Just thought I would throw this out there, if you have BM hunters, they are most likely using Ravagers or Wind Serpents. The Wind Serpent special attack will eat your Stormstrike. As it's been said, its usually an Elemental Shaman, or in my case, Wind Serpents and Elemental Shaman (when we actually run with one) that steal my Stormstrike debuff most of the time.

And I thought I read something here on EJ that said that the initial application of a Deadly Poison stack, being the first one applied, will actually eat a Stormstrike charge, but the additional applications and DoT ticks do not. I will try to find out where it is and post a link. If it's wrong, ignore this.
#8018SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3rava
Originally Posted by Aeolian
And I thought I read something here on EJ that said that the initial application of a Deadly Poison stack, being the first one applied, will actually eat a Stormstrike charge
It does not. If it was posted it was misinformation.
#8019SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Xoya
Originally Posted by Daler
That's all well and good, but the uptime isn't nearly as important as what is eating the SS charges. In fact, given that it's a two charge debuff with refreshes coming at best every 10 seconds, I'd say there's really no point at all in calculating the SS debuff uptime.
Then take note of one of the things I said toward the end of the post:

Originally Posted by Xoya
Of particular note, 300/10 = 30 stormstrike debuffs. 300/11 = 27.27 stormstrike debuffs.
In my guild, if we have no elemental shaman present in the raid, it's typical for me to see stormstrike at 2 stacks until I earth shock, then 1 stack till I refresh it.
#8020SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Disquette
Solid start on this, imo, though it still needs some work to be accurate. One example is the AvgWFLag, as you acknowledged. The other is expertise/dodge. Thanks Toots.

Let's think a bit (since I'm a bit out of the enh stuff for awhile) about the flurry problem:
- basically we know, dodged/missed swings do not take up a load, while glancing does
- so we have several types of swings which can occure during flurry:
- - glancing white swing (can be skipped due to the attack table)
- - normal swing (non - crit)
- - crit swing
- - normal windfury (non - crit)
- - crit windfury
- - normal stormstrike (non - crit)
- - crit stormstrike

so let's sum up, (1 - dodge) is called dodge for simplicity here, I assume yellow hit cap

white swings: (1 - crit)^3 is the probability that we don't crit in 3 swings

Now for the following let's assume an average weapon speed of 2.6

So the next question simply is:
How much time do these 3 normal white swings take?
- 3 * 1.3s = 3.9s, we attack on average every 1.3 seconds, call it aatimefor3 for now.
But we're talking fully flurried, so it is 1. ((2.0/2)*3)

We can exactly have ONE windfury proc in these 3.9s, it does not matter which swing it procs, just if it does (and does crit) or does not.

So we get an additional: 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^3) swings from wf, basically the probability we proc wf in those 3 swings and we actually don't miss those swings.

And finally we get a certain amount of stormstrike swings in 3.9s, since we get 2*dodge in 10s:
2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10), we actually do have to add the stormstrike swings to the possible wf proccing swings too.

So at the end we have the following equation for flurry uptime:

flurry := 1 - (1- crit)^(3+ 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(3+2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10))) + 2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10));

Addendum:
One thing i forgot, if it actually procs windfury, the next round of flurried swings probably has no 3 swings to proc wf.
We need to actually include this, this gets complicated though:
For simplicity we could assume, that really only aatimefor3/3 swings can proc windfury, meaning instead of 3 swings we actually only have 1.0 swings, but that does not really solve the inclusion of stormstrike.
Worstcase scenario, our 3 swings don't proc wf, but stormstrike procs wf, which then crits. We only then have a 0.0 seconds window for wf to proc (3.0s - 3.0 cooldown).
I guess we should simplify that to: (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(3.0/3)

So the simplified version (with corrected wf cooldown) looks like:
flurry := 1 - (1- crit)^(3+ 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(aatimefor3/3)) + 2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10));

Plotted that looks like:

Last edited by Tornhoof : 03/23/08 at 5:18 AM.
#8021SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
Thanks for the detailed write up! I'm off to Pennsylvania atm, but will read it more carefully later.
#8022SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Tornhoof
Given the rewritten flurry equations + a few other fixes here and there for (close to optimal 2.4 gear) my current equivalency values are:
CR: 1.854 EP
HR: 1.831 EP
HasteR: 1.810 EP
Expertise: 3.156 EP
ArmorPen: 0.321 EP

This is fairly similar to the calculated values from Yo's sim. Keep in mind that especially CritRating,HitRating and HasteRating are very close together, so these exact values are correct for that gear only.

The gear for the above values is: Pastey.net - paste bin

I've added RC3 of my weo2 program with the changes described above.
#8023SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Daler
Originally Posted by Xoya
In my guild, if we have no elemental shaman present in the raid, it's typical for me to see stormstrike at 2 stacks until I earth shock, then 1 stack till I refresh it.
Well, the comparison would be rather simple.

Run two sims with you waiting to SS and you not waiting to SS. Note the DPS difference.

Take your elem shaman's avg. LB strike (accounting for hit/crit/raid buffs and debuffs/etc.) and multiply it by 1.2, subtract the original expected LB strike value, and multiply that difference by the # of stormstrike debuffs lost by waiting to SS outside of cooldown. Then divide that total by the length of the fight and compare with your expected personal DPS gained by waiting to SS outside of WF cooldown.

Whichever is the greater contribution to raid DPS should be the determining factor.

Shouldn't take you more than 5 minutes.
#8024SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3• Disquette
An interesting twist that would affect calculations *very slightly*, could happen if windfury works for us in a similar way that it works for classes who get it via totems. If you check the roguecraft 101 forums, you can see that windfury actually acts as a temporary buff that increases attack power (for ALL attacks) for a teeny bit of time.

http://elitistjerks.com/683746-post2062.html
#8025SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3panny
Originally Posted by Disquette
An interesting twist that would affect calculations *very slightly*, could happen if windfury works for us in a similar way that it works for classes who get it via totems. If you check the roguecraft 101 forums, you can see that windfury actually acts as a temporary buff that increases attack power (for ALL attacks) for a teeny bit of time.

http://elitistjerks.com/683746-post2062.html
From memory, this is how Windfury Weapon used to work when it was just an additional two white hits. You could open your stats page and see the AP value jump up when WF procced. I think it's pretty unlikely it still does since there are so many yellow attacks with "does weapon damage +x" (even though ours is the only one with +AP).
#8026SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3swiftcaller
I recon that some of his calculations are mistaken?!

I discovered while after mathing the calculations on the Earth shock - Flame shock cyclus that he has mistaken on the end facits, i found it to be:

((0.42×750+675)/10×1.26)+ ((0.67 ×750+797)/10×1.36)= 301.47200
#8027SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by swiftcaller
I discovered while after mathing the calculations on the Earth shock - Flame shock cyclus that he has mistaken on the end facits, i found it to be:

((0.42×750+675)/10×1.26)+ ((0.67 ×750+797)/10×1.36)= 301.47200
Well you are apparently trying to use 10 second rotations or something, which isn't a miscalculation on my part at all.
#8028SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3aikiwoce
Firstly, you have a great source of information here. I don't know if this is widely known, but our BM hunter said that his pet was getting windfury procs the other day. I'm trying to locate a WWS that shows this.

Also, I was always under the impression that potency/crusader was better than mongoose. Did this change recently? Which hands should Executioner/mongoose be placed on?
#8029SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Delita
I don't know where you'd get that impression.... and read the first post or search about info on where to put your enchants.

[e] spelling.
#8030SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3◊ Malan
Originally Posted by aikiwoce
our BM hunter said that his pet was getting windfury procs the other day.
The buff is applied to a weapon so I'm pretty doubtful of this claim. Is it possible that he has a pet the same name as a rogue/warrior/retadin in your raid and that a bad merge of WWS data took place?
#8031SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3aikiwoce
Originally Posted by Malan
The buff is applied to a weapon so I'm pretty doubtful of this claim. Is it possible that he has a pet the same name as a rogue/warrior/retadin in your raid and that a bad merge of WWS data took place?
I was unable to locate it in any recent WWS parse. It was quite a while back that our hunters commented on this. I'll see about trying to reproduce it
#8032SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3Rhaegal
Originally Posted by aikiwoce
Firstly, you have a great source of information here. I don't know if this is widely known, but our BM hunter said that his pet was getting windfury procs the other day. I'm trying to locate a WWS that shows this.
WWS report of a ZA run from last month where I was healing: Isurus - WWS

Charcaridon was in the tank/melee group with his pet wind serpent Isurus. You'll note that the pet is getting Battle Shout from Highwire, who is getting Windfury procs. Isurus never gains the Windfury proc buff.

I don't remember if we changed groups around much during the raid, but if you want to check, the other hunter pet in the raid was Journey (one of the cool spirit wolves from Dustwallow that you can't get anymore). He also did not gain any Windfury procs over the whole night.
#8033SourcePosted onPatch 2.3.3bestpike
I'd like to point out a mistake made on the BT rep trinket. The actual equal AP isnt 137.5 for the simple reason that if the Stormstrike misses you get no buff. That means, at an 6.5% dodge of a boss, only 93.5% of your SS will hit the target, that is if you have zero expertise, which is normal in 2.3. That lowers the actual equal ap of this trinket to 137.5x0.935=128.5AP. With the new T6 and that awesome trinket from Magisters terrace we will be able to get some expertise though and raise the equal ap of this trinket.
#8034SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Eltorronado
Haste after 2.4

Was wondering if stacking Haste would be advisable after 2.4. I was looking at gear and haste is becoming much more available. And I believe this can be done without sacrificing STG, STM. So, please let me know if this makes any sense at all..
#8035SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rhaegal
Sim the gear you have. Sim again with the gear you're looking to get. If your DPS is higher in the second sim, it makes sense. If not, it doesn't. Haste isn't so magical that you can't model it in the sim to get the answer.
#8036SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0SpottedCowz
Perhaps there's some info buried in the last hundred and some odd pages, but I haven't found anything looking through a few pages here and there. I noticed that the Yo! Calculator has a slot on the trinket section for HoJ out of BRD, but I don't see EP values for it anywhere. I'm actually not entirely certain how the math on that would work. If someone could give me a rough idea of where to start for a formula to weight that, I'd appreciate it.
#8037SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rhaegal
Try using the "Search this thread" option. I just ran a search for "Hand of Justice" and one of the first hits was:
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I

I don't think anyone's come up with an "exact" EP value for it (if such a thing is even possible, as it would scale with gear). Mostly because it's bad. As the person a couple posts down from what I linked implied, there are Outlands quest reward greens that are better.
#8038SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Devnex
2.4 is finally here, in preparation I've readied:
A regular 5 man for Heroic MT for [Shard of Contempt]
8 primal mights for [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
and mongoose mats for [Mounting Vengeance]

Am I missing anything?
#8039SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Zula
Hello, according to the site loot rank and yo's simulator stats, there will be(in the 2.4) no good MAIL leggins: [Item 'http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34914' not found!] are a less improvement than [Item 'http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34928' not found!] because of the hit rating. So it' sure we have to wear leather to max dps output? is this the way, even for the [Item 'http://www.wowhead.com/?item=34927' not found!]
#8040SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Brum
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
So the simplified version (with corrected wf cooldown) looks like:
flurry := 1 - (1- crit)^(3+ 2 * dodge * (1 - (1-wfprocprob)^(aatimefor3/3)) + 2*dodge*(aatimefor3/10));
Heya Tornhoof. I plugged the equation into 20 BT/Hyjal fights and came out with 6% greater flurry uptime than predicted. Fight data here

I used dodge and crit rates from each fight, 20% wf proc rate, 2.6/2.8 weaps for an aatimefor3 of 4.05. Then averaged the differences between actual and predicted flurry uptimes (weighted by # of swings) across all the fights. Link here to the .xls with the calcs

On another note, with 0% dodge and 37% crit, the equation predicts 75% uptime. Over an hour on Servants flurry meter showed 90% uptime with 0% dodge, 37% crit, 2% white miss, SS spam, 2.6/2.8 weaps
#8041SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Aximous
Originally Posted by Devnex
2.4 is finally here, in preparation I've readied:
A regular 5 man for Heroic MT for [Shard of Contempt]
8 primal mights for [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
and mongoose mats for [Mounting Vengeance]

Am I missing anything?
Mats for [Hard Khorium Band]

Originally Posted by Zula
Hello, according to the site loot rank and yo's simulator stats, there will be(in the 2.4) no good MAIL leggins: [Leggings of the Pursuit] are a less improvement than [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer] because of the hit rating. So it' sure we have to wear leather to max dps output? is this the way, even for the [Tunic of the Dark Hour]
You should be wearing the one that has the most ep value no matter of the stats on it. This has been brought up several times that hit rating isn't that important. You have the ep value for hit rating it is just as important as any other stat, you have your ep values from the sim, agree with those.
#8042SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Mox
Originally Posted by Aximous
Using my EP values I get that ring as 168.38 points, compared to 166.42 for Illidan ring/156.42 for ZA ring. Think if the guild/raid is fighting over sunmotes It'd be better to just wait till much later on for a minor upgrade like that. Oh the note of rings the [Band of Ruinous Delight] comes out at 186.69 and is pretty amazing!

Still waiting for M'uru loot though... theres zero MHs yet and no mail dps pieces (except the good shoulders from twins). Currently thanking the lord im JCing cause the [Design: Hard Khorium Choker] beats everything else hands down.

[e] With the standard set of raid debuffs/buffs, my gear/spec I get values significantly different to the "t6-end game" values given in OP, you might want to re-run them due to changes in the sim since then. These were 3x 15000 hours then averaged.

1 AP
1.9 Crit
1.78 Hit
1.96 Haste
0.37 Armor Pen
2.2 Str
1.85 Agility
3.33 Expertise

Last edited by Mox : 03/25/08 at 2:02 PM. Reason: EP values
#8043SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Glayde
I know it's not interactive for your particular own EP numbers but:

Static Excel with most new gear based on the t6 EP ratings in the first post.
Trinkets aren't done properly, and no socket bonuses are counted, and gems are counted socketed as color. Notes are also incomplete.
But it gives you a general idea looking at the new gear. I may have missed something, let me know.

(I generated the table from a microsoft access database and made it look readable by hand)

Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18 (Yo's Simulator recently changed to give EP weights to Expertise Rating)
Used weem's original (but now slightly incomplete) spreadsheet for a lot of the initial data.
I'm sure we're all feening for his new interactive!

http://webuser.bus.umich.edu/tle/t6ep_loot.xls
#8044SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Brum
Originally Posted by Glayde
I may have missed something, let me know.
...
http://webuser.bus.umich.edu/tle/t6ep_loot.xls
Here ya go:
[Mantle of the Golden Forest]
[Starstalker Legguards]

You might like to add notes for the expertise items; about becoming less valuable when you hit 6.5% antidodge (or whatever the actual % is).
#8045SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Lumpeh
I attempted to send you a message Malan but I'm unsure if it sent so I'll repost it here.

In Section 4.1.1 Totem Twisting, under the Cons of the art, you state that

The mana cost of refreshing 2 totems every 9 seconds while Stormstriking is roughly 14,000 mana every 2 minutes. This will limit the ability to use shocks, and requires very careful timing of Shamanistic Rage, may require JoW from a paladin, and definitely requires 5 points in Totemic Mastery.
This would actually require you to have 5 Points in Totemic Focus, not Totemic Mastery as Totemic Mastery is a single point part of the Resto tree that increases the range of your totems to thirty yards. Totemic Focus is the part of the Resto tree that reduces the mana cost of your totems by 25%.

Just thought I should point that out.
#8046SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Yes I got it, I'll fix that later.
#8047SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0qillie
Originally Posted by bestpike
I'd like to point out a mistake made on the BT rep trinket. The actual equal AP isnt 137.5 for the simple reason that if the Stormstrike misses you get no buff. That means, at an 6.5% dodge of a boss, only 93.5% of your SS will hit the target, that is if you have zero expertise, which is normal in 2.3. That lowers the actual equal ap of this trinket to 137.5x0.935=128.5AP. With the new T6 and that awesome trinket from Magisters terrace we will be able to get some expertise though and raise the equal ap of this trinket.
Also there is the the chance you dont Stormstrike every 10 sec exactly for example Lag - Global cd.
is this taken into the calculation?
#8048SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Brum
Heya Tornhoof. I plugged the equation into 20 BT/Hyjal fights and came out with 6% greater flurry uptime than predicted. Fight data here

I used dodge and crit rates from each fight, 20% wf proc rate, 2.6/2.8 weaps for an aatimefor3 of 4.05. Then averaged the differences between actual and predicted flurry uptimes (weighted by # of swings) across all the fights. Link here to the .xls with the calcs

On another note, with 0% dodge and 37% crit, the equation predicts 75% uptime. Over an hour on Servants flurry meter showed 90% uptime with 0% dodge, 37% crit, 2% white miss, SS spam, 2.6/2.8 weaps
Ah yes, nice data there:

A few notes: aatimefor3 needs the hasted speed of both weapons (e.g. for 2.8/2.6 with flurry only) it is ((2.8+2.6)/(1.3*4))*3

The wf proc rate is 36% (we assume one possible wf proc which could be done by either hand)

and your dodge should be 1-dodge (i assumed that a few lines above the calc for simplicity)

So for example:

=1 - (1- B18)^(3+ 2 * (1-B19) * (1 - (1-0,36)^(B28/3)) + 2*B19*(B28/10))

whith b28 being the new flurried aatimefor3.

I editited a few entries and your avg weighted diff is now 0.319


Same thing on your servants tests with the corrected equation (especially the dodge) the uptime is 87%

You actually are a bit more hasted for the servants, due to faster attack speed after parry.

Last edited by Tornhoof : 03/25/08 at 5:42 PM.
#8049SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0bestpike
Originally Posted by qillie
Also there is the the chance you dont Stormstrike every 10 sec exactly for example Lag - Global cd.
is this taken into the calculation?
Truth is i havent thought of that. I guess this lower's the trinket's value even more.

A similar phenomenon also happens for example for "use" trinkets (like Bloodlust brooch). Its assumed that they are used on cooldown, and i think in reality this never happens. we always forget to use them sometime, making trinkets that dont demand player action higher in value. imo.
#8050SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Joy
Originally Posted by bestpike
Truth is i havent thought of that. I guess this lower's the trinket's value even more.

A similar phenomenon also happens for example for "use" trinkets (like Bloodlust brooch). Its assumed that they are used on cooldown, and i think in reality this never happens. we always forget to use them sometime, making trinkets that dont demand player action higher in value. imo.

Or you can be lazy like me and bind it to Stormstrike. ( I also have a manual stormstrike button that I use for the first couple to wait for a threat gap before bloodlusting)
#8051SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0vikinghelmet
Totem twisting in 2.4

I had heard that in 2.4 casting totems reset the swing timer as a discouragement to totem-twisting, but now I can't find where I read it. I tried to test it live but I haven't been able to get it conclusively. Does anyone know the truth of this? Also, if it is true, does this invalidate twisting or is it still feasible?

Thanks.
#8052SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0aikiwoce
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...istsoffury.jpg

New enhancement shaman Hyjal Trash drop weapon set. *note the 1.5spd off-hand.
#8053SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Originally Posted by vikinghelmet
I had heard that in 2.4 casting totems reset the swing timer as a discouragement to totem-twisting, but now I can't find where I read it. I tried to test it live but I haven't been able to get it conclusively. Does anyone know the truth of this? Also, if it is true, does this invalidate twisting or is it still feasible?
Can you post a citation for this claim?

Anyway, twisting would *probably* still be feasible, but it would require closely monitoring your swing timers. Wait until swing goes off, drop WFT. Wait until swing goes off, drop GoA. It would definitely raise the effort level even farther than it already is, and would probably be enough to make me quit twisting, personally.

Of course it would also be a significant PvP nerf: no more dropping Grounding or Earthbind if you're in range of somebody. For that reason I hope and doubt that this change occurred.
Originally Posted by aikiwoce
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...istsoffury.jpg

New enhancement shaman Hyjal Trash drop weapon set. *note the 1.5spd off-hand.
Hmm, so one instance too late and a worthless offhand. Bleh.

+3.7DPS * 9.03 EP/DPS = +33.411 EP from DPS
-14 AP
-15 hit rating = ~ - 24 EP
20 agi vs 19 crit rating = wash

Yeah, so it's actually worse than [Talon of the Phoenix] except for the stam upgrade. (And the proc but the OH is worthless...) What a joke!

Last edited by Rob : 03/25/08 at 11:01 PM.
#8054SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Morelis
Originally Posted by aikiwoce
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...istsoffury.jpg

New enhancement shaman Hyjal Trash drop weapon set. *note the 1.5spd off-hand.
Seeing that really makes me curious as to how their itemization team works, you'd figure there would be some sort of sanity check along the way that would catch things like this. At the very least you'd wonder why those kinds of mistakes would still be happening in the first place, how hard could it be to draft up a set of rough guidelines when designing items for each class?

Last edited by Morelis : 03/25/08 at 11:21 PM. Reason: grammar
#8055SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• frmorrison
The set is decent for a Rogue (since they need a fast off-hand, and good fist weapons are rare), but I would use the MH over Talon even if it was lower dps just for looks alone.
#8056SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0faight
On the topic of twisting, I was playing with the new totem UI and I was overjoyed at being able to kill a single totem. Is there a text command for being able to do this that could be inserted in to macros for twisting to get back mana? I swear I saw it posted before, but I couldn't find it.
#8057SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Killme888
That was before when destroying single totems gave back mana, it doesn't anymore, unless it's not recorded in the combat logs.
#8058SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0ChaguraED
single destroys=no mana

I tested destroying a single totem while under 0 regen/5 and within the 5 second rule. Confirmed that no mana is returned from destroying a single totem. Ah well.
#8059SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0faight
Oh, nevermind then, I noticed that mana is returned seperately for each totem killed with Totemic Recall, but I didn't really sit down to test out the UI other than saying "Hey look now I can kill searing totem when I need to without killing all my other totems".
#8060SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Fearlezz


Still can't decide what word to use when looking at the OH speed, ironic or moronic. And they call it a "Shaman set". A "SHAMAN set". Geez...
#8061SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bragor
Seems we got our new Bling Bling weapons.

Same case for serious BT/MH Raiding enhancement shamans with tier 6 enhancement.. More Bling Bling
#8062SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0seminarca
Originally Posted by Fearlezz
Still can't decide what word to use when looking at the OH speed, ironic or moronic. And they call it a "Shaman set". A "SHAMAN set". Geez...
Who is "they"? And when/where has this been referred to as a "Shaman set"? All I see is people reacting to the graphics and auto-assuming it's meant for Shamans whereas it's entirely possible Blizzard's intent was to plug the T6 level PvE Fist Weapon itemization hole for Rogues. Whether that's an itemization hole that merits plugging is another question, but really ..
#8063SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Margot
They = mmo-champion.com, apparently. I guess reporting on WoW stuff isn't a good motivator to understand game mechanics.
#8064SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Atren
Not just they, those fist graphics were first associated with shaman by Blizzard ages ago. Not sure if it was Blizzcon or wherever, but i do remember them being *shaman*. I am very furious about this to be honest, who in the blazes came up with that offhand?
#8065SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Zack
Hi guys, i'm new and i'm not english so sorry for my bad english.

I want know the best skill rotation with totem twisting and without it after the patch 2.4(totem gcd 1 sec from 1.5)

(shock cooldown 6 sec., no talent for 5 sec.)

Now i always used : Flame Shock - SS - Earth Shock - repeat again and again and again and refresh windfury when needed but i want maximize my dps.

Thx.
#8066SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Glayde
Originally Posted by vikinghelmet
I had heard that in 2.4 casting totems reset the swing timer as a discouragement to totem-twisting, but now I can't find where I read it. I tried to test it live but I haven't been able to get it conclusively. Does anyone know the truth of this? Also, if it is true, does this invalidate twisting or is it still feasible?

Thanks.
You _heard_ this somewhere? How can you not test this conclusively live?

3/26 08:32:17.087 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF430004820003B24,"Warp Stalker",0x10a48,934,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/26 08:32:18.040 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8000000 0,25528,"Strength of Earth Totem",0x8
3/26 08:32:18.150 SPELL_SUMMON,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF130003C7701C7CB,"Strength of Earth Totem VI",0xa28,25528,"Strength of Earth Totem",0x8
3/26 08:32:19.869 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF430004820003B24,"Warp Stalker",0x10a48,1886,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
3/26 08:32:20.962 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8000000 0,25528,"Strength of Earth Totem",0x8
3/26 08:32:22.681 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF430004820003B24,"Warp Stalker",0x10a48,864,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/26 08:32:24.040 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8000000 0,25528,"Strength of Earth Totem",0x8
3/26 08:32:24.040 SPELL_SUMMON,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF130003C7701C7FA,"Strength of Earth Totem VI",0xa28,25528,"Strength of Earth Totem",0x8
3/26 08:32:25.509 SWING_DAMAGE,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF430004820003B24,"Warp Stalker",0x10a48,888,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/26 08:32:25.681 PARTY_KILL,0x0000000000181F26,"Glayde",0x511,0xF430004820003B24,"Warp Stalker",0x10a48
3/26 08:32:26.306 UNIT_DIED,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,0xF430004820003B24,"Warp Stalker",0x10a48
swings at 17.08 19.86, 22.68 and 25.51 (using a slow two hander), dropping totems between swings.
#8067SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Piestein
2nd edit: I think the original post got edited quite close to when I was posting and the post was about the shard of Contempt I just got.

I got a question tho. Obviously, DST and shard are top 2(btw the proc of the shard is REALLY NICE- the ppm is like the other ones, as far as I've noticed). But are they a good combo or is it better to have "on use" trink , like berserker's call?

Last edited by Piestein : 03/26/08 at 1:05 PM.
#8068SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Justin3563
can I get any output on this, it isn't written in the guide(I checked :P ).

[Hourglass of the Unraveller]


[Shard of Contempt]


[Shard of Contempt] from heroic Magister's Terrace will be as good, or better than, the DST.
check again top section of first page. DST is (before 2.4) the best Enhancement shaman trinket with the most EP points. so it being as good or better than DST would rank it in the top 3 at least.
#8069SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Justin3563
Originally Posted by Piestein
2nd edit: I think the original post got edited quite close to when I was posting and the post was about the shard of Contempt I just got.

I got a question tho. Obviously, DST and shard are top 2(btw the proc of the shard is REALLY NICE- the ppm is like the other ones, as far as I've noticed). But are they a good combo or is it better to have "on use" trink , like berserker's call?
with this and your tier 6 boots, belt, and writs from sunwell you will reach the expertise cap which is huge! You can use any other trinket you like just as long as the one in question is one of them :P
#8070SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0vikinghelmet
The reason I haven't tested the question myself is because my swingtimer mod has been acting up and there hasn't been a 2.4 update yet.

I've been looking for the quote for some time now but I can't seem to find it. I could have sworn that I saw it on this forum but it seems I was wrong.

Sorry for wasting your time.
#8071SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Unaz
Originally Posted by Joy
Or you can be lazy like me and bind it to Stormstrike. ( I also have a manual stormstrike button that I use for the first couple to wait for a threat gap before bloodlusting)
Try this out, will save you a keybind or four:

/startattack
/use [modifier:alt] Medallion of the Horde
/use [modifier:shift] Master Healthstone
/cast [modifier:ctrl] Bloodlust
/cast Stormstrike
Mash butan for stormstrike/attacking in general, hit ctrl when you want to Bloodlust.

And somewhat related (probably don't need the second two stopcasting lines, but doesn't hurt):

/stopcasting
/cast [nomodifier] Blood Fury
/stopcasting
/cast Shamanistic Rage
/stopcasting
/use Bloodlust Brooch

Last edited by Unaz : 03/26/08 at 2:59 PM.
#8072SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Devnex
Color me entirely unimpressed by the new Shamanistic Rage. In raid situations it's a guaranteed full mana bar but I find I waste most of the duration when grinding running between mobs and end up with less than half a bar every two minutes.
#8073SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Unaz
Originally Posted by Devnex
Color me entirely unimpressed by the new Shamanistic Rage. In raid situations it's a guaranteed full mana bar but I find I waste most of the duration when grinding running between mobs and end up with less than half a bar every two minutes.
Last night we ran about half of BT while people were getting used to changes, and I was constantly going near OOM without even doing anything like twisting. I can sustain it with the occasional combat pot, but this wasn't a concern before at all. This may be intentional on Blizzard's part though, who knows.

I think if I timed it a bit better with my mana bar it would have been fine, but again. this wasn't something that was a concern prior to 2.4.
#8074SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Dukanull
New shamanistic rage

Didn't get to raid too long last night due to crashing instance servers (QQ) but we did get within a trash pull of kalec and I was not having any problems with mana. I'm like the ADD type who never drinks either, seemed to take 5-6 swings for a full mana bar if I popped zerker's or blood fury during SR. This wass also sustaining a full twisting rotation. I was always stressed for mana on trash before due to targets dying to fast after i SR, no JoW, etc.
#8075SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Devnex
Well yes, any creature that lives as long as trash in Sunwell is fine for regenerating mana. I notice the pinch more when I'm questing/grinding. Travel time KILLS my regen.
#8076SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Xoya
I was having pretty big mana problems on bosses last night in BT and Hyjal. Toward the end of Naj'entus, I believe, I was relegated to stormstriking alone without twisting or shocking at all, and I had made sure to use my shamanistic rage at a proper time. I am almost wondering if this theory about haste negatively affecting shamanistic rage procs is true, and this lower duration is just making it more painfully obvious. Against bosses, we've got a 6.5% + ~15-20% chance to "miss". That's 25%+ of our attacks or more in 15 seconds that -can't- proc shamanistic rage, and we don't have all that many to begin with.
#8077SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nobunda
Originally Posted by Dukanull
Didn't get to raid too long last night due to crashing instance servers (QQ) but we did get within a trash pull of kalec and I was not having any problems with mana. I'm like the ADD type who never drinks either, seemed to take 5-6 swings for a full mana bar if I popped zerker's or blood fury during SR. This wass also sustaining a full twisting rotation. I was always stressed for mana on trash before due to targets dying to fast after i SR, no JoW, etc.

*/Wave*... I feel ya on ysera last night, I actually couldnt get in on the last hour due to connection issues with wow and missed our first OH drop (vengence).

I found myself getting anywhere up to 900-1000 mana back per swing (I bound berserker call and SR to a O.S. Mana macro). Im alil disappointed in the duration if your using it for damage reduction cause its terribly short... but im sure we will all adjust. Nonetheless I will say its nice to get that mana back alil quicker than before... even though with 340 mana/5 back showing on my character model... mana wasnt a real issue anyways. Only time I was needing to use this macro was on the mana destroying mobs in SWP.
#8078SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Tambard
Got the Mounting Vengeance off the first mob in Sunwell. That was pretty nice. Anyway... Has anyone seen the new Hyjal Fists? (obv, the mainhand) It seems like it will probably be inferior to even a Syphon.
#8079SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Aximous
Actually it seems worse than the al'ar fist with my values by like 40 EP, according to a short simming it seems to be equal with syphon not accounting syphon's proc.
#8080SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Beowolf
Originally Posted by Aximous
Actually it seems worse than the al'ar fist with my values by like 40 EP, according to a short simming it seems to be equal with syphon not accounting syphon's proc.
Does anyone know how often the set bonus procs, and if it procs off WF, and potentially FT, attacks? If I recall correctly, the mace from Naxx was a chance on any kind of melee hit, even if you only had one weapon. Might be interesting to test out, though I would much prefer the OH to be 2.7 speed as well.

Edit: Thottbot World of Warcraft: Misplaced Servo Arm
According to Thottbot, the proc rate on the old mace from Naxxramas was 30-40%. If thats the case for this set bonus, the proc alone might be worth upwards of 50 dps 'depending on how many WF/SS/FTs? you get and what your haste is. But can we get some hard data?

Last edited by Beowolf : 03/27/08 at 1:37 AM.
#8081SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0timkim
so there is a swing reset timer when dropping totems now huh? :T
#8082SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Xoya
Originally Posted by timkim
so there is a swing reset timer when dropping totems now huh? :T
This is only anecdotal, of course, but twisting tonight on Teron Gorefiend I managed over 1700 DPS, which is a new record for me, so I highly doubt this is true.
#8083SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Shiyo
Originally Posted by Hedin
/cry
Totem relics do reset swing timer... I was so close :-(
This is the post that probably caused the confusion.
#8084SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0timkim
i dunno i guess im not doing it right? on brutallus only doing like 1k dps with twist then ~1.5k dps without? what am i doing wrong? :T

oo nvm broken recount :T
#8085SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Ilmatar
Something has changed. I am seeing 51% of my damage coming from white damage, instead of closer to 43-46% pre-patch. Is anyone else seeing this?

Edit:
Actually, I guess it was only a 2-3% increase after looking at some more WWS's and this could be due to the Flurry fix and I picked up a tiny bit of expertise since the last WWS.

Last edited by Ilmatar : 03/27/08 at 12:13 AM.
#8086SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Draenorm
I was doing 1800ish on brut while twisting, I don't know what to tell you. Are you just comparing the two attempts, or are there multiple occurrences?

edit: Yeah recount's been kind of funky a good majority of the time.

Last edited by Draenorm : 03/27/08 at 12:13 AM.
#8087SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0timkim
yeha i see that now ilmater

actually im pretty new to twisting/shaman'ing...i just did it with new recount and did 1655 on brutallus.
#8088SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Muj
hey guys, just got my mounting vengeance too ^_^

Just wanna ask a question concerning some of the new gesr upgrades from sunwell, I'm torn between going for haste rating or armor pen from the leather/mail gear and crafted epics.

I can either go for both the crafted Leather chest ([Carapace of Sun and Shadow]) with the crafted mail gloves ([Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix]) or the chest off of felmyst ([Bladed Chaos Tunic]) and the crafted leather gloves ([Gloves of Immortal Dusk]).

Is there any solid theorycrafting on which is better yet?

Personally I want to lean towards the armor penetration items because of the mounting vengeance and because I use an executioner/mongoose set up and I'm looking to get the s3 axe ASAP.

Sorry if this was already talked about jsut posting quickly while server is resetting.
#8089SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Aximous
Originally Posted by Muj
hey guys, just got my mounting vengeance too ^_^

Just wanna ask a question concerning some of the new gesr upgrades from sunwell, I'm torn between going for haste rating or armor pen from the leather/mail gear and crafted epics.

I can either go for both the crafted Leather chest ([Carapace of Sun and Shadow]) with the crafted mail gloves ([Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix]) or the chest off of felmyst ([Bladed Chaos Tunic]) and the crafted leather gloves ([Gloves of Immortal Dusk]).

Is there any solid theorycrafting on which is better yet?

Personally I want to lean towards the armor penetration items because of the mounting vengeance and because I use an executioner/mongoose set up and I'm looking to get the s3 axe ASAP.

Sorry if this was already talked about jsut posting quickly while server is resetting.
Go get your ep values from the sim and it will quite obvious that which one is better, there's no point in stacking only one stat like haste or armor penetration where the items which has more ep for you.
#8090SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Gaise
Originally Posted by Muj
hey guys, just got my mounting vengeance too ^_^

Just wanna ask a question concerning some of the new gesr upgrades from sunwell, I'm torn between going for haste rating or armor pen from the leather/mail gear and crafted epics.

I can either go for both the crafted Leather chest ([Carapace of Sun and Shadow]) with the crafted mail gloves ([Fletcher's Gloves of the Phoenix]) or the chest off of felmyst ([Bladed Chaos Tunic]) and the crafted leather gloves ([Gloves of Immortal Dusk]).

Is there any solid theorycrafting on which is better yet?

Personally I want to lean towards the armor penetration items because of the mounting vengeance and because I use an executioner/mongoose set up and I'm looking to get the s3 axe ASAP.

Sorry if this was already talked about jsut posting quickly while server is resetting.
Loot Rank

That site plus EP values from the sim will give you the best theorycrafting available so far on any drop.
#8091SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mox
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but /run DestroyTotem() doesn't return any mana. So it's pretty useless to include it in any twisting macros or anything basically. Hope this bug gets fixed.
#8092SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Mox
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but /run DestroyTotem() doesn't return any mana. So it's pretty useless to include it in any twisting macros or anything basically. Hope this bug gets fixed.
Actually it was mentioned quite a bit on the last page.

I doubt it's a bug. Destroying totems one-by-one is a completely different action and serves a completely different purpose than Totemic Call, and doesn't cost you a GCD. It could also be "exploited" for twisting (which we were all planning on doing), which Blizzard has explicitly stated is unintended and will be addressed in the future. I really doubt it was ever intended that destroying totems one-by-one was ever intended to cause a mana gain.
#8093SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Dunno, last night I couldn't even destroy totems. Aye, I had some mana issues, but I think that if u have much ap, it's actually the same . U just must use it very precisely and u got to think when to use it.

TOtems DO NOT reset swing timer.

Btw, my new trinket gives me 60 dps alone according to yo's - I'm an orc with an axe MH .

is the /run destroy totem the macro?? Cuz if so, I am so gonna make searing totem macro for this.
#8094SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Blind
Whats the point of recalling one totem?

I haven't yet come up with a decent scenario when you would.
#8095SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Devnex
We should probably go about modelling the proc [Shard of Contempt]. I've not been able to get procwatch working yet but here are the things I know.

20 Second uptime.
45 second internal cooldown from the start of the effect (spent about 15 minutes timing this).
And I rarely go longer than 55-60 seconds without seeing it proc again (usually much sooner).

Anyone else come up with something a little more professional? I'm in love with this little guy and would like to see it take its place in the first post as best enhance trinket.
#8096SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Blind
Whats the point of recalling one totem?

I haven't yet come up with a decent scenario when you would.
I have a routine that I run through when I drop totems, because I'm almost always dropping the same four: SoE, MS, WF, Searing. I just run down the bar and click the same things every time without thinking out of habit. There are a lot of times where I've dropped all four, then realized that there's CC in the pull, and have to pick all four back up and re-drop everything but Searing. Yes, if I was paying more attention to every single pull, it's completely avoidable, but how many times have you dropped Searing then thought better of it? Or extra mobs added that could be CC'd, and you needed to get rid of it, but didn't want to waste four GCDs to get rid of it and get your other totems back down?

I'm sure it'll be useful for other things, but Searing is the main reason I'm happy about it.

[e] Right, right, you can drop FrR to get rid of Searing, so you wouldn't be wasting nearly as much time. I blame trying to think clearly in the mornings. Sorry! Main point still stands, though, and the convenience of being able to just destroy the totem without wasting mana or a GCD is nice.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 03/27/08 at 11:35 AM.
#8097SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Yes the real (only) benefit of being able to remove a single totem is to destroy a Fire totem without having to recall all of them or drop something like Frost Resist to kill just that one totem. Just saves you some mana in the long term that's all.

The totem timer addon GotWood has already implemented this, you can right click any of the CandyBars representing the totems and it will destroy that totem.
#8098SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Jheherrin
why not just drop Frost resist rather than recall and redrop all 4 ?
#8099SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0jlavarj
Searing totem wasn't attacking sheep or ice blocked hunter trapped targets for me the other night in Magister's Terrace.
#8100SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Jheherrin
why not just drop Frost resist rather than recall and redrop all 4 ?
No the idea is to kill ONLY the searing totem. Dropping a frost resist totem means that I just spent mana on a totem that I don't need. Its stupid. Recalling all 4 means that I have spend mana on 3 totems that were fine as they were, which is stupid. Being able to kill just the searing totem is the ideal solution. And hey look, we can do that now.

Originally Posted by jlavarj
Searing totem wasn't attacking sheep or ice blocked hunter trapped targets for me the other night in Magister's Terrace.
This is pretty basic. If a mob is under CC when you drop the totem, its not a valid target as long as it remains CCd. If the CC breaks, or if you dropped the totem prior to the CC being used, those mobs are valid targets and the searing can and will break it. Its not nearly as bad as it used to be when it would indiscriminately attack anything, but you can still manage to break CC with now.
#8101SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Got both a [Shard of Contempt] and [Mounting Vengeance] last night.

Ended gemming it with 10 str twice, stupid that it's a blue gem or I surely would have tried to get the relatively decent socket bonus.
Also, I enchanted it with Mongoose and to my great disappointment it doesn't glow
#8102SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Boneshaman
I see that other people have posted that they've noticed a increase in the amount of mana being used during fights, has any been able to figure out whats going on here? I've been able to raid without ever really worrying about going OOM before patch 2.4, but last night I found myself using mana pots that I keep around for when I'm needed for specing resto.
#8103SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Yeah, I actually went OOM on our Kalecgos kill. I just shrugged it off and put it down to having to redrop totems a lot more on that fight. Weird, though. I drop them just as often on Illidari Council and I've never gone OOM there pre-patch.
#8104SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Brum
Originally Posted by Tornhoof
Ah yes, nice data there:

A few notes: aatimefor3 needs the hasted speed of both weapons (e.g. for 2.8/2.6 with flurry only) it is ((2.8+2.6)/(1.3*4))*3

The wf proc rate is 36% (we assume one possible wf proc which could be done by either hand)

and your dodge should be 1-dodge (i assumed that a few lines above the calc for simplicity)

So for example:

=1 - (1- B18)^(3+ 2 * (1-B19) * (1 - (1-0,36)^(B28/3)) + 2*B19*(B28/10))

whith b28 being the new flurried aatimefor3.

I editited a few entries and your avg weighted diff is now 0.319


Same thing on your servants tests with the corrected equation (especially the dodge) the uptime is 87%

You actually are a bit more hasted for the servants, due to faster attack speed after parry.
Ah thanks. 3% is pretty close
#8105SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Anecdotal of course, but I haven't' had any trouble with SR at all since 2.4, in heroic Magisters last night it was returning over 700 mana per proc when I glanced at my combat log, I had a full mana bar in half the buff time.
#8106SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0frozndevl
I've also noticed my mana dropping much faster than previously. The only thing I can think of is since the GCD is up faster, I am not skipping as many shocks as I would when twisting. We ran Kara last night and though we ran it faster than we normally do, 2h45m for my guild, I used mana pots a few times on Prince and Netherspite when I have never needed to before.
#8107SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Jebes
I suspect that it isn't your mana that is being used faster, it's your regen has decreased due to the spirit->int mana regen change. I think this change has affected hunters in the same way. Since int as a stat isn't prioritized on enhance gear, the regen from a 5sr tick will probably be lower than in pre-2.4. Although you wouldn't get a tick while twisting, so what frozndevl said about above the 1 second totem GCD is also correct.

Last edited by Jebes : 03/27/08 at 2:32 PM. Reason: s/dropping/being used/
#8108SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Zealoz
Originally Posted by Malan
This is pretty basic. If a mob is under CC when you drop the totem, its not a valid target as long as it remains CCd. If the CC breaks, or if you dropped the totem prior to the CC being used, those mobs are valid targets and the searing can and will break it. Its not nearly as bad as it used to be when it would indiscriminately attack anything, but you can still manage to break CC with now.
Please don't take this for anything but an observation at this point. But last night in BT. After hearing of the changes to chain lightning not jumping to CC'ed targets, I was doing some testing with searing totem during the trash pulls up to Teron. I was dropping the totem before the trash was pulled and before CC's went out. Never once had the totem attack and break a CC'ed target. Going to confirm with WWS tonight and post either a retraction or the log showing.

Perhaps I got lucky, or perhaps this was an undocumented change with 2.4
#8109SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0SpottedCowz
The Claw of Molten Fury MH from Hyjal is kind of ass. It's strictly worse than Syphon as far as a MH goes (of course), and I was previously using Syphon MH and Fool's Bane(87.5DPS 2.6 speed) from Kara as my OH. I moved Syphon to OH and mained the Claw, then checked the Yo's simulator to see what kind of difference we were talking. Removing the enchants from the equation, I got ~roughly~ the same DPS either way. It looks like the Syphon/FB is actually slightly better than the CMF/Syphon combo. That's pretty sad. MH trash drop that doesn't increase my DPS from the Kara drop that I was using? Frankly, I'm a little irritated that I wasted the DKP on the claw. Don't get me wrong, it looks awesome, and I get a lot of comments on it, but still...
#8110SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0frozndevl
Originally Posted by Jebes
I suspect that it isn't your mana that is being used faster, it's your regen has decreased due to the spirit->int mana regen change. I think this change has affected hunters in the same way. Since int as a stat isn't prioritized on enhance gear, the regen from a 5sr tick will probably be lower than in pre-2.4. Although you wouldn't get a tick while twisting, so what frozndevl said about above the 1 second totem GCD is also correct.
I tried to find some other information and there was a thread over on the official forums that discusses the change to mana regen. I am only posting this because it can have an adverse effect on our overall dps output if it requires a change to twisting or shocking.

WoW Forums -> Mana Regen - 2.4

This links to the following image. http://www.wowwiki.com/images/6/6b/O...are_Priest.png

Even though the graph is kind of rough, it does make sense and what Jebes says matches. I have approximately 150 spirit and int and according to the graph I would have less mana regeneration in 2.4. Nothing we can do about it besides increasing our spirit and int, but I still don't think it is as much of an impact and I don't foresee many changing their itemization based on this.
#8111SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Jebes
I suspect that it isn't your mana that is being used faster, it's your regen has decreased due to the spirit->int mana regen change. I think this change has affected hunters in the same way. Since int as a stat isn't prioritized on enhance gear, the regen from a 5sr tick will probably be lower than in pre-2.4. Although you wouldn't get a tick while twisting, so what frozndevl said about above the 1 second totem GCD is also correct.
Even without twisting, an Enh Shaman should be spending very close to zero time out of the 5SR. With 6 second shocks, SS and shock cooldowns align such that you get one regen tick about once a minute. With 5 second shocks, it never happens.
#8112SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Zealoz
Perhaps I got lucky, or perhaps this was an undocumented change with 2.4
You were probably lucky, the totem should always try to attack the nearest target first (till its dead or out of range).
#8113SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Unaz
The change with SR isn't making it so that we don't fill up when we use it (except in high mobility situations.) I tick for over 1k with it raid buffed, so that's not the issue. It's the extra 15 seconds of not being mana capped.

Before we would have 30 seconds of infinite mana, ending at full, followed by 90 seconds of normal usage.

Now we have 15 seconds of infinite mana, usually ending at full, followed by 105 seconds of normal usage.

Assuming your shocks average at 150 mana (due to Shamanistic Focus), and in about a 7 second window, that would be about 15 shocks out of SR.

2250 mana

Stormstrike is every 10 seconds at about 220 mana I think. Which would be about 11 stormstrikes in the window.

2420 mana + 2250 = ~4670 used. Which is about a 2k window for error raid buffed.

Which is fine for the most part. And why I only used a couple mana pots. Any inefficiency (twisting totems as well, refreshing outside of SR) makes that margin for error mighty small. I'm not saying this is perfect usage, as typically you will have less shocks, but if you're twisting you use more as well.

The short version is you have about a 2k mana margin of error, and if you don't end your SR at full due to mobility or otehr reasons, you're more likely to run up against it. And when you start using expensive totems like elementals or bloodlusting, you can push it even further.

It's not game breaking, but it can be a factor where it previously wasn't. It does make the use of SR a bit more strategic, and I'll probably be unbinding my trinkets from it soon so I can continue to use them every cooldown while saving SR for when I really need it.
#8114SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rmagic16
Question about relic totems and trinkets

I am a troll enhancement shaman playing both pvp and pve

I am debating wither or not to get Totem of the Astral Winds or Stonebreaker's Totem. I have read that Stonebreak's totem is better then Astral but is this a pvp or pve relic. If these are for pve, is there a better Relic totem to get for pvp? If so please link me to it.

The next question is focused more on trinkets. There is a list of trinkets in the first post that shows the best trinkets in descending order. However are these also primarily for pve? Are there better ones specifically for pvp? If so what is the best 2 for pvp (link me)?

Thanks,
Rugal
#8115SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Krom[Fenris]
Did a BT clear last night and didn't have any mana problems, except when I was supposed to, namely Bloodboil fight because I'm usually trying to hold out on SR for if I get Fel Raged. I still don't like the SR change, but mostly because there were some cases where I'd rely on having 30 seconds of reduced damage (Blade Fury pulls for instance).

Going back into SP tonight, will see how it goes mana-wise.
#8116SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Ilmatar
I had 0 mana problems last night in SSC, but I'm Alliance so we have pallys out the ears, even Warriors get Wisdom

The interesting thing I noticed on Tidewalker (I healed this fight) was that, w/ the new Shamanistic Rage, I can actually swap to DW, and get about 75% of my mana back in healing gear. It was kind of cool. (BTW any Resto shaman looking for a 2-day/wk raid?)
#8117SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mindrila
We were running MH this evening and well I had no troubles with mana, I also could do a full DPS rotation at the mana leeching boss (can't remember the name, damn brain) and only to the end of the fight it got quite tight.

I had 0 mana problems last night in SSC, but I'm Alliance so we have pallys out the ears, even Warriors get Wisdom
I don't know what alliance has to do with the availability of paladins, I'm also alliance but it's a wonder if we have more than two paladins with us, sadly...
#8118SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mengus
Enhancer WF Cooldown Broken?

Just wanted to see if anyone is having any issues running Enhancer, and not getting the WF Cooldown?
#8119SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
well, I dont know , but I didn't have mana issues as well. I have to put some more thought into it thought.

I dislike the change tho. Now you have less time and if u dodge/ miss/ parry etc, stuff that COULD happen even if they shouldn't , your chances of getting mana back to full are diminishing with double the speed now.
#8120SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
I was wearing T6 on Brutallus today and I was planning to save my SR for Burn, that was a no go. Had to pretty much use it every cooldown to maintain my mana .
#8121SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Quaunaut
Originally Posted by Mengus
Just wanted to see if anyone is having any issues running Enhancer, and not getting the WF Cooldown?
I too am having the problem. Every other part is working well, however.
#8122SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0faight
Originally Posted by Mengus
Just wanted to see if anyone is having any issues running Enhancer, and not getting the WF Cooldown?
I'm having a few totem issues with Enhancer. It doesn't pick up single kills with the totem UI, and doesn't seem to be picking up when my Grounding totem gets eaten (I don't remember if it did before or not, I'm pretty sure it did). I noticed this on Kael during Heroic MT; I pretty much always have a grounding totem down on that fight, but I found myself relying on the built in UI rather than enhancer for it.

It would be awesome if enhancer could hook in to the totem UI and you could kill totems by right clicking on the icons in enhancer. I've gotten so used to haveing the four totems up in the HUD style that I can't see going to anything else right now.
#8123SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Quaunaut
I too am having the problem. Every other part is working well, however.
I'm not getting the WF cooldown box to work, or the Purge announcement to work either.
#8124SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Killme888
Probably haven't gotten around to change the code to watch out for the new combat logs. Should be pretty easy to fix once they get around to it.
#8125SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0iconocclast
yea.. was in hyjal 2nite and my mana was getting owned.... questing on the island as well, i NEVER used to have mana issues.
#8126SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Ruga
Originally Posted by Mengus
Just wanted to see if anyone is having any issues running Enhancer, and not getting the WF Cooldown?
Yeah, it's not working. Guess you just gotta stick to counting to 3 in your head again ;P
I'm sure it'll be fixed soon enough. Weekends always give plenty of time for the code monkeys to get to work (no offense ;P )

As for mana, with the gear I got equipped (see profile), I got around 6.4kish mana and don't have any problems with it. We're on Kalecgos.
#8127SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Kletha
When we're talking about wfcooldownmeters.

Anyone using WF3Sec? Or if the author (Hedin?) is reading this...

I got it to work today again (was broken right at patch) but it doesn't behave as it shoud, I've also had this before 2.4 but then I just retained an old version that worked properly.

The issue is that now the 3 secs show up just in the left most part of the bar, it looks as if the resolution of the bar is 10 secs now and since WFCD only is 3 secs it starts at the 3 sec mark and go down making it a lot harder to see.

Anyone else who has this problem?
#8128SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
I use DisqoDice-there's a link in the Enhancement Bible(aka the big guide for shamans ). It does show you the cooldown of Windfury, has twist options, other cooldown options etc. Compact and light addon. Although it doesn't show about your totems- just twist really. I also heard TotemTimer is a nice addon.

Btw, I have some problems with destroying totems- I simply can't. Clicking on em(right-click, left-click , whatever really) doesn't destroy them. <--- Using Blizzard ui for the buffs, minimalist as well( tho for some odd reason, it doesn't work for the buff section currently) and AG_unitframes. Can anyone help me out with this?
#8129SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• Disquette
Originally Posted by Piestein
I use DisqoDice-there's a link in the Enhancement Bible(aka the big guide for shamans ). It does show you the cooldown of Windfury, has twist options, other cooldown options etc. Compact and light addon. Although it doesn't show about your totems- just twist really. I also heard TotemTimer is a nice addon.

Btw, I have some problems with destroying totems- I simply can't. Clicking on em(right-click, left-click , whatever really) doesn't destroy them. <--- Using Blizzard ui for the buffs, minimalist as well( tho for some odd reason, it doesn't work for the buff section currently) and AG_unitframes. Can anyone help me out with this?
Yep, i figured other people could do totems better, but there wasn't a twisting mod, and I wanted the stormstrike/windfury/shocks stuff for my own purposes.
#8130SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Hedin
Originally Posted by Kletha
When we're talking about wfcooldownmeters.

Anyone using WF3Sec? Or if the author (Hedin?) is reading this...

I got it to work today again (was broken right at patch) but it doesn't behave as it shoud, I've also had this before 2.4 but then I just retained an old version that worked properly.

The issue is that now the 3 secs show up just in the left most part of the bar, it looks as if the resolution of the bar is 10 secs now and since WFCD only is 3 secs it starts at the 3 sec mark and go down making it a lot harder to see.

Anyone else who has this problem?
Yep, I made every bar 10 seconds long so that now you can see if there is time to shock if SS CD ended in progress of WF CD. Maybe in next version I'll recolor SS bar for last 1.5 seconds so you can time GCD from shocks :-)
#8131SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Aximous
Anyone noticed aggro issues after the patch? Last night in bt I managed to pull aggro of gurtogg twice and even ros in p2 both with vashj trinket equipped and twisting tq, never pulled any aggro on any of those fight so I was pretty amused that how that happened . The interesting is that I didn't pull either najentus or teron and while I wasn't twisting nor had the vashj tirnket equipped. The tanks and group setup was regular.

Last edited by Aximous : 03/28/08 at 9:41 AM.
#8132SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Kletha
Originally Posted by Hedin
Yep, I made every bar 10 seconds long so that now you can see if there is time to shock if SS CD ended in progress of WF CD. Maybe in next version I'll recolor SS bar for last 1.5 seconds so you can time GCD from shocks :-)
Oh.

Is there any possibility to set the WFcd (or all) bar to whatever long you want it or could it be implemented?
I'm currently using another addon to show me the cooldown on skills and similar stuff.
#8133SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nevets_69
Originally Posted by Illundai
I was wearing T6 on Brutallus today and I was planning to save my SR for Burn, that was a no go. Had to pretty much use it every cooldown to maintain my mana .
Sounds like you weren't getting Wisdom on the boss from the paladins.

I did a full night of Brutallus attempts last night (with three different 1-3% wipes), and I found that I could keep full mana with just JoW on the boss. I never used my SR except to mitigate the last 15 seconds of burn. Saving the SR for burn really helps out the healers, and combined with a healthstone I can pretty much guarantee I'll survive.

Not sure what your raid composition looks like, but with a Ret Paladin in the raid to refresh blessings, and never having to move, EVER. The holy paladins can toss Judgements of Light and Wisdom once at the start of the fight, and they pretty much just don't fall off (rare exception is the Ret Paladin gets back to back dodged/missed Crusader Strikes).

But overall, on this fight my mana regen is higher in combat than out because of Judgement of Wisdom.
#8134SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Yo!
Checking if a coin is fair - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Assuming that we know definetly that dodge chance is < 10% (therefore E<0.3*Z/sqrt(n), n<0,09*(Z/E)^2):
Total number of proper strikes (white + WF for shamans, white + sinister strikes for rogues) that are needed to determine dodge chance with maximum error of 0,001 (that is 5.7% instead of 5.6% for example) with 95,45% level of confidence = 360,000...
10,000 strikes with same level of confidence provide 0,6% maximum error and that is not acceptable (6% dodge found with 10,000 means it can actually be 5.4% or 6.6%)
100,00 hits provide 0,19% maximum error.
Approximately 13 long (BT) parses with 4-5 dpsers and removed trash and casting (non-dodging) bosses statistics are needed for 360,00 strikes.
Any dodge% reduced by expertise that players have (orcs+axes, gear, talents) has to be added as additional # of dodges for the combined record (if rogue performed 10,000 strikes with 2.5% dodge reduction - add 250 dodges).
I've read through the pages since this, and either I missed the result or no one's pursued this (admittedly fairly monumental) undertaking, or prove the 5.6% vs 6.5% debate by another means. With the [Shard of Contempt] available now, it's actually fairly important that this be cleared up, so we can determine if 91 expertise rating is capped, or if it takes 103 rating. Again, I may have missed something searching around here and in the rogue thread, but this still seems very ambiguous to me. I don't want to write off one side as being dyslexic, because it feels like just picking a side at random--yes, the math on WoWWiki says 5.6% and it makes some fair amount of sense, but it wouldn't be the first time info there was wrong. It could just as easily be 0.1% dodge per defense point higher than the attacker's weapon skill, instead of 0.04%, without some solid evidence.

If this understanding is still lacking, I'd be happy to dig through other peoples' WWS reports (probably tomorrow) if they could provide me with spec/gear/race info for the appropriate members of the raid (particularly if the rogues have the expertise talent and if they're human, if any shaman are orcs, how much expertise people had on their gear, yadda yadda). I don't have enough reports from my own raids to do this, though I can certainly add the data I do have into the mix if needed.

...or if I'm dumb and someone's already solved this, I'd love to have a link to that post so I can bookmark it and stop coming back to this topic.

[e] This will probably take a pretty large number of reports to get near the confidence level we need, and I don't want to flood the thread--probably best to PM me your data. Also, if you're an orc, please either be DW axes or not using an axe in either hand. I could technically average the expertise for each hand, but I'd rather work with fewer assumptions. Same goes for rogue data, if a human is fist/sword, I can't use their autoattack damage for this without making a similar assumption.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 03/28/08 at 11:40 AM.
#8135SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nevets_69
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
If this understanding is still lacking, I'd be happy to dig through other peoples' WWS reports (probably tomorrow) if they could provide me with spec/gear/race info for the appropriate members of the raid (particularly if the rogues have the expertise talent and if they're human, if any shaman are orcs, how much expertise people had on their gear, yadda yadda). I don't have enough reports from my own raids to do this, though I can certainly add the data I do have into the mix if needed.
Here's a link to the WWS Report for our Brutallus attempts last night.

This should be a good report to test on since in almost every attempt I'm behind the boss 100% of the time.

I'm an Orc Shaman dual wielding Vengeful Axes, and I also had the [Shard of Contempt] equipped all night. Hope this helps, would love to see the results.

Edit: I fail at english.
#8136SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
It's a fairly low amount of dodged attacks to be honest. And that is only with 16 expertise(shard + 5 expertise). Note that it's expertise, NOT expertise RATING. It's an interesting debate for the expertise cap,in my opinion, so can we get any maths for that, please?

Btw, Disquette, I find the timers for SS / shocks/ WF and all that much better then my blizzard ones. Because I can time my twist more precisely, acknowledging other spells. I can also re-cast the twist like 1 sec earlier, but get less GCD on my shock/ SS, therefore lose less dps :P .
Did you update the water totem addon btw? Last time I checked, it was still on the 1-min cd. Haven't checked still with the latest version though.
#8137SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• Disquette
Yes, it's on a 10 minute timer now, and the version is updated to show WF cooldown properly with the new combat log (in large part thanks to Hedin).
#8138SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Genzou
Originally Posted by Aximous
Anyone noticed aggro issues after the patch? Last night in bt I managed to pull aggro of gurtogg twice and even ros in p2 both with vashj trinket equipped and twisting tq, never pulled any aggro on any of those fight so I was pretty amused that how that happened . The interesting is that I didn't pull either najentus or teron and while I wasn't twisting nor had the vashj tirnket equipped. The tanks and group setup was regular.
There are some claims that UR generates aggro again. (no raid till sunday, so haven't checked my own aggro yet). hopefully unintended if it's the case.
#8139SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Tornhoof
Originally Posted by Brum
Ah thanks. 3% is pretty close
Yes, you could even argue if the WF proc probability is 40% but not 36% in this case (since we already exclude proc chains or similar), then it is even a bit more correct.
Anyway as for now I'm fairly happy with the formula.
#8140SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Totalitar
Originally Posted by Illundai
I was wearing T6 on Brutallus today and I was planning to save my SR for Burn, that was a no go. Had to pretty much use it every cooldown to maintain my mana .
I'd say you didn't have BoW up as this happened to me. I'm actually trying twisting with 16/45 and 2 shocks per twist which just destroys the blue bar and without BoW I was oom in maybe 40 seconds it seemed. With BoW I was able to keep my mana above 50% the entire time and I'm pretty sure I used more mana in 10 seconds then you would have unless you're crazy like me, heh.
#8141SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mox
Originally Posted by Totalitar
I'd say you didn't have BoW up as this happened to me. I'm actually trying twisting with 16/45 and 2 shocks per twist which just destroys the blue bar and without BoW I was oom in maybe 40 seconds it seemed. With BoW I was able to keep my mana above 50% the entire time and I'm pretty sure I used more mana in 10 seconds then you would have unless you're crazy like me, heh.
I want to try this on our brutallus trys, what rotation were you using? ss, fs, wf/goa, es. rinse repeat?
#8142SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Hedin
Redone my addon so now it will NOT show WF CD alone it just corrects SS CD if it gets into WF CD...
#8143SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0polocabbit
I just noticed something for Yo's Sim. The actual weights displayed on the main tab do not match the values for the enhancer string in the import/export tab.

I ran the sim a few times. This is an example of what I got.

AP:100;CR:202;STR:200;AGI:179;HR:180;HsR:200;IA:034;ExP:361;

AP - 100
crit - 202
hit - 180
haste -200
ArP - 034
str - 220
agi - 197
ExpR - 361
Although only 2 values don't match (strength and agility), I'm hoping this is just user error on my part. But it is something to take note of.

Apologizes if this was already mentioned before.
#8144SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Areus
The Agi and Str values that are input to Enhancer from Yo!'s sim do not match up directly because they are affected by BoK whereas the other stats you are inputting are not.

If you have BoK checked, the values will be different, if you uncheck it, the values should match it 1 to 1.
#8145SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Shegokigo
Any idea when Yo's will update with Shard of Contempt as a chooseable "2nd trinket"?

Or can we use it with just the 2nd trinket slot being "Nothing" and still get correct AEP?
#8146SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mindrila
Until now there is (as far as i have seen) no known mechanic for the shard, well sort of but no ppm only a guess at an internal cooldown of 45 seconds but as long as there are no definite numbers accepted by the whole community I don't think it will be put there. Just enter your expertise gained and well add a random amount of attackpower (perhaps 80) and I believe your ep values won't be that far off.
#8147SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
[Scroll of Strength V] how many use these with regualar consumables? Daily quest mobs + chest drops those in sunwell and price went down.

Edit: I just bought 50*1g each. Droprate is now awesome.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 03/29/08 at 12:24 PM.
#8148SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Mindrila
Until now there is (as far as i have seen) no known mechanic for the shard, well sort of but no ppm only a guess at an internal cooldown of 45 seconds but as long as there are no definite numbers accepted by the whole community I don't think it will be put there. Just enter your expertise gained and well add a random amount of attackpower (perhaps 80) and I believe your ep values won't be that far off.
My rogues that have are saying that the info they have shows 60% proc rate or around a 2 PPM. They didn't say where they got that info though, but if that's legit than the shard is definitely better than the DST.

@Pitbuller - I don't make a habit of buying them, but if I see them on a vendor (limited item) in ZA or get them from drops I'll usually use them on things like Teron, Mother, Council, things where it behooves us to finish the fight as fast as possible before someone fucks it up.
#8149SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• Weem
Originally Posted by Mindrila
Until now there is (as far as i have seen) no known mechanic for the shard, well sort of but no ppm only a guess at an internal cooldown of 45 seconds but as long as there are no definite numbers accepted by the whole community I don't think it will be put there. Just enter your expertise gained and well add a random amount of attackpower (perhaps 80) and I believe your ep values won't be that far off.
I tested it on the PTR and there is indeed a 45 second internal cooldown.
#8150SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0mjgunn
Noob question that I'm sure has been asked many times before (but searching for syphon & EP doesn't work, Syphon alone comes up with a a loooooooot of hits, etc), how do you figure out the EP of the Syphon? Going strictly by the DPS and the AP, the two stats that EP assigns value to, its EP is relatively low, but that's without figuring in the proc which I'm assuming is what makes it so good. Would just like to know exactly what the EP value of the weapon is and how it was figured. Thanks!
#8151SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Shegokigo
Originally Posted by Malan
My rogues that have are saying that the info they have shows 60% proc rate or around a 2 PPM. They didn't say where they got that info though, but if that's legit than the shard is definitely better than the DST.
Well that wasn't my original question, I was simply asking how to consider the "Shard of Contempt" in Yo's Simulator since he doesn't have a "choice" for it in the trinket section.
#8152SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
That's why we need to know the PPM, so we can calculate the average of attack power you'd have from the proc over a minute. For the expertise, you'll just have to add that to the paperdoll stats, like all other trinkets.
#8153SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Totalitar
Originally Posted by Mox
I want to try this on our brutallus trys, what rotation were you using? ss, fs, wf/goa, es. rinse repeat?
WF, GoA, FS, SS, ES

I'm not 100% sure if this is good in the long run because I get in an extra shock but WF totem is only down 90% of the time for the rogues.
#8154SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
FS, SS, WF, GoA, ES. You'll have to make decisions on the fly what to delay from time to time, but that's what makes twisting fun and challenging.
a) In case all both SS & Twist come up, I reason: Is WF on CD? Yes? Twist. Is WF not on CD? SS. Then twist.
b) Twist + Shock. Twist. Always.
c) All 3? Do a) followed by a shock.

Or sometimes I just skip one cycle of a Twist and leave WF up for 5s.
#8155SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Before 2.4, using DisqoDice, it was very, VERY easy for me to spot ~3-4 seconds earlier if they would come together. Then, I just twisted a bit earlier so that when the TCD(totem cd) ends, I'd have a spell ready with no lost time (or lost time down to a minimum). Don't know if any of you ever thought of doing that, but before that, as I had NO mana issues, it did work for me. Still yet to see how things go now.
#8156SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Roywyn
Originally Posted by mjgunn
Noob question that I'm sure has been asked many times before (but searching for syphon & EP doesn't work, Syphon alone comes up with a a loooooooot of hits, etc), how do you figure out the EP of the Syphon? Going strictly by the DPS and the AP, the two stats that EP assigns value to, its EP is relatively low, but that's without figuring in the proc which I'm assuming is what makes it so good. Would just like to know exactly what the EP value of the weapon is and how it was figured. Thanks!
The proc sucks pretty hard. Our shaman DWs syphons, and the proc makes ~0.7% of his total damage. Usually bit less, sometimes a bit more. Try estimating it maybe as 10 crit rating per syphon or so, DWing them makes it 20 crit, a bit less than 1%, should be in line with a 0.7% total damage increase.

What makes them so good is that they are 2.8s speed weapons.
#8157SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Xamanes
season 3 and syphon

I tried using the search yet it didn't work so here is my question.

say you have dual wield season 3 weapons and a syphon drops, would it be a good idea to go for syphon for a main hand and offhand with the season 3? or just stick with the season 3 weapon?

also i currently use a dragonstrike with executioner MH and a merciless gladiator pummler with potency ( i know its bad but i didn't want to get something nice on it ) OH. and my guild is 3 bosses into hyjal and starting BT tomorrow. and i have roughly 1700 rating in my arena teams climbing slowly. and have a monopoly on the dkp over the competition for Raid gear.

so my question is what should i shoot for getting The BT Syphons or Season 3 axes?
#8158SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Originally thought to just say"check original post" , but I am actually too bored, so will quote anyways:

"3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available."
"Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating."
"3.2.2Off Hand
Current 2nd(I add this myself , because of the 2.4 offhand from sunwell best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]). "
"Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons."- 150 badges.

Those are your choices. I say just see what you could get easier. Do NOT pass syphon if you don't have the rest, but don't whore your dkp for it either. There are just 3 minor tricks to each of em really.
1st) U need tons of badges, tho they're not hard to get. Just a lot- for the brutality fists.
2nd) Syphon drops from 2nd BT boss who is relatively easy to get to and down. Problem is, drop rate is low.
3rd) vengeful weapons are uber. But you need the personal rating for them .

The choice is yours , I hope I helped.

And just check the original post, it is all summed up there.
#8159SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Xamanes
Originally Posted by Piestein
Originally thought to just say"check original post" , but I am actually too bored, so will quote anyways:

"3.2.1 Main Hand
Arena Season 3 weapons (e.g. [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]) are the best currently available."
"Any combo of [Rising Tide] and [Syphon of the Nathrezim] or a pair of Syphons is the second-best option for those unable to attain an 1850 arena rating."
"3.2.2Off Hand
Current 2nd(I add this myself , because of the 2.4 offhand from sunwell best choice for an offhand is any of the Season 3 Arena weapons ([Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver]). "
"Sunwell badge loot [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] and [Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality] are just under ~10 DPS of the S3 weapons."- 150 badges.

Those are your choices. I say just see what you could get easier. Do NOT pass syphon if you don't have the rest, but don't whore your dkp for it either. There are just 3 minor tricks to each of em really.
1st) U need tons of badges, tho they're not hard to get. Just a lot- for the brutality fists.
2nd) Syphon drops from 2nd BT boss who is relatively easy to get to and down. Problem is, drop rate is low.
3rd) vengeful weapons are uber. But you need the personal rating for them .

The choice is yours , I hope I helped.

And just check the original post, it is all summed up there.

thats not quite what i meant.... but thank you for helping sort of.
#8160SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
philomon
I'd like to make a point of clarity for the main post, regarding the shock rotation for enhancement. Flame shock spam is NOT ideal.

Flame shock does not have a flat 67% coeffecient. Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coeffecient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion. At home testing states ~21% on the instant portion and ~40% on the dot portion. With +657 dmg, my flame shock did 518 (377 + .21(657)) on the instant and 170.5 damage per tick for a total of 682 (420 + .4(657)) for the dot portion.

It doesn't add up to 67%, first, but those are the numbers. But the fact that a split coeffecient is present at least really shoots down the viability of flame shock spam as proposed. Using my coeffecients, the 6 second dps of a flame shock is:

((377 + (.21 * 750) + (420 + (.4 * 750)) / 2) / 6) * 1.36 =
(535 + 360) / 6 * 1.36 = 202.9 dps

202.9 dps is less than what earth shock offers over 6 seconds, especially since one must wait a fraction of a second for the 2nd flame shock tick after the next shock is ready. Using slant's numbers, the result dps is identical, oddly enough.

The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit

Last edited by philomon : 03/29/08 at 10:02 PM.
#8161SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Zoya
Originally Posted by Genzou
There are some claims that UR generates aggro again. (no raid till sunday, so haven't checked my own aggro yet). hopefully unintended if it's the case.
I have noticed this in Zul' Aman today, we had a patroll add and the warrior tank went to them and had agro. I wasnt even near them yet i got all of them come for me from range (and ofcourse kill me). Somehow I caused more threat then rage and HoTs.
#8162SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pitbuller
"I have noticed this in Zul' Aman today, we had a patroll add and the warrior tank went to them and had agro. I wasnt even near them yet i got all of them come for me from range (and ofcourse kill me). Somehow I caused more threat then rage and HoTs."

Same thing in heroic magister to me. I overagroed when there was offtanked mobs. Healer was doing over 100tps to every mob so this is pretty big bug. Pretty insane repair bill with warrior tank. Only with protadin if this keep poking me in live.
#8163SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by philomon
The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit
If you want to argue that the coefficients for Flame Shock are wrong on wowwiki etc, than we can explore that. If you are arguing that my math is wrong with the assumption that the coefficients are right, you're incorrect. I did it both ways (split the DD and the DoT and added the dmg together vs doing them in one calc) just to be sure and they both came out the same.

I will admit that I didn't check into the number of DoTs and when they'd be ticking vs when the next shock would be ready, but lets be realistic here, nobody has a 0 ping to be hitting shocks back to back anyways.
#8164SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Binkenstein
There's also the point that not using SS charges (or using them as little as possible) will give more benefit to other people, most notably the Elemental Shaman (like me). Rough estimate is a 6.7% dps boost if I get both charges, although I haven't taken into account overload eating the second charge itself (which may reduce it to 6.3%).
#8165SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Rapparee
Originally Posted by Xamanes
I tried using the search yet it didn't work so here is my question.
syphon for a main hand and offhand with the season 3?
or just stick with the season 3 weapon?
also i currently use a dragonstrike with executioner MH and a merciless gladiator pummler with potency

so my question is what should i shoot for getting The BT Syphons or Season 3 axes?
Xam, this is the kind of post that will get you banned form the forums. This thread is not for "what gear should I get?" That is exactly what you asked.

The first post in this thread clearly spells out that season 3 outperforms any weapons from Hyjal or BT.
The author hated having to put that information in there, because the entire point of this thread is teach people how to figure that information out for themselves. There is a simulator for determing what weapon suits you best, please use it.

About the syphon proc, I feel your pain. A long time ago, I answered that a single syphon was 3 to 5 dps for me according to WWS reports. That post is so ancient it doesn't show up in the first few pages of a search. Because my values come from straight data, not a mathematical formula for determing the value of the proc, it's not contained in the simulator.
#8166SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
From wowwiki again.
" * Flame Shock is benefited from the Mage talent Improved Scorch
* Flame shock is benefited from the Warlock curse Curse of the Elements "
Therefore, it would do more damage if the target has those debuffs , plus it will not anger your elemental shaman. Another thing(again from wowwiki):
"This is considered the most mana efficient shock"
Usually, I'd say that mana doesn't matter, but since we have only 15 seconds of eternal mana, we should start taking notes for this as well in my oppinion. There are many shamans that complain of getting oom even.Oh, and where is it said that the coefficient of flame shock is wrong in the post? Sorry, couldn't see it.
#8167SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mindrila
Well I don't exactly know how accurate DrDamage is but for my warlock it seemed very very precise. And it's showing me that flameshock does around 1250 damage and earthshock only does around 1k, so only if I use my own SS charges earthshock is comparable or better, but in a raid even without an elemental shaman there are only few situations where I can use my own charges so better stick with FS/ES rotation.
#8168SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
There are SOME suggestions of the proc already. Quote from wowhead.com:
10%-ish proc rate, 20-second duration, 45-second hidden cooldown. So that's pretty much nearly a 50% uptime rate for 230 AP. So yeah the proc is amazing, and that's why this isn't a gimmicky "let's cap Expertise and stand in the frontal arc of anything that doesn't cleave!" item. It's just a winner and if you see one drop, stab the rest of your group to equip it.
I know it ain't exact numbers, but it's a start. Or so I hope.
#8169SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Piestein
Oh, and where is it said that the coefficient of flame shock is wrong in the post? Sorry, couldn't see it.
In the OP it doesn't, I use 67%. Philomon disagreed, it was just a few posts up but here's the portion he mentions it -

Originally Posted by philomon
Flame shock does not have a flat 67% coeffecient. Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coeffecient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion. At home testing states ~21% on the instant portion and ~40% on the dot portion. With +657 dmg, my flame shock did 518 (377 + .21(657)) on the instant and 170.5 damage per tick for a total of 682 (420 + .4(657)) for the dot portion.

It doesn't add up to 67%, first, but those are the numbers. But the fact that a split coeffecient is present at least really shoots down the viability of flame shock spam as proposed. Using my coeffecients, the 6 second dps of a flame shock is:
)
And yes, its not a "Flat coeffecient", it is indeed split between the DoT and the DD. But he's incorrect to say that I have to split that and can't add it up to 67%.
a% * X + b% * Y= (a%+b%) * (X + Y). As I said, I did it both ways just to verify when I was writing that section and the results were identical. The only point I'm willing to concede is that the coefficients themselves (which I grabbed from wowwiki) might be incorrect.
#8170SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Maybe you've understood me wrong- my question was different.. The link philomon gave to provide evidence to his theory : I didn't see where it says that the coefficient is not 67%- saw an interesting post, but nothing about flame shock. Philomon, can you quote from the link that you provided, please? Because this is what you say:
"Older testing on the WoW shaman forum (TBC Shaman FAQ) states the coefficient is broken down to 15% on the instant portion of the shock, and 51% on the dot portion."
Can we all see this statement? Or can you tell me where it is in the original post?
#8171SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Yah in fact that link he posted says :
Flame Shock - 67% (15% on shock, 52% over the DoT)
Which is the exact set of values that I used for the equations in the article.
#8172SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Piestein
There are SOME suggestions of the proc already. Quote from wowhead.com:
10%-ish proc rate, 20-second duration, 45-second hidden cooldown. So that's pretty much nearly a 50% uptime rate for 230 AP. So yeah the proc is amazing, and that's why this isn't a gimmicky "let's cap Expertise and stand in the frontal arc of anything that doesn't cleave!" item. It's just a winner and if you see one drop, stab the rest of your group to equip it.
I know it ain't exact numbers, but it's a start. Or so I hope.
230ap * 20s duration / (45s cd + avarage time to get buff + 20s duration)
With 10% change avarage time to get buff is. Using 1hit per second model. x is then hit or second.
0.9 ^ x = 0.5
x = 6.57.
Let say 7 hit or second.

230ap * 20s / (72s) = 64ap = 64ep or 28% uptime.


64ep + 44expertice ep value.
Its huge its best but no that good that someones have hyped it.
Last and least. I got it and I like it.
#8173SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Oteb
Ok. guys help out. I am going insane here. I have been pve raiding shaman. Then resto pvp for god damn long time. Now going back to enh for pvp. Long story short I had a long break with melee.

I am noticing something that as i recall melee mechanic should not ever happen.
I have maxxed axe skill of course.
Wielding 2 axes.
Having around 12% in pvp gear.

And i am getting glancing blows vs level 70 mobs.
Werent glancing limited to only higher level mobs? Did anything change? Am i losing my mind?
The combat log clearly states: (glancing)

W T F is going on?
#8174SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0slant
Originally Posted by Piestein
Can we all see this statement? Or can you tell me where it is in the original post?
It goes on for several posts. My FAQ contains basically the same information as this thread, presented differently for a somewhat less sophisticated audience. Many of the spell coefficients haven't been tested since 2.1; if they've changed that would be good to know.
#8175SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Lethnon
I have a quick question....

The main page states:

"However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration."

I am getting SSC/TK/T5 geared, and I am saving badges for the fists (I admit, I suck at PVP). Obviously I will be re-enchanting my weapons. But I couldn't find any mention of the value of Armor Pen that would be necessary, and I am a bit confused because later the main page says:

"At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable."

So, how do I determine the crossover point for a double mongoose vs. an executioner/mongoose? And, assuming the latter, which one would be the preferred on the MH?
#8176SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Daler
Originally Posted by philomon
The conclusion, therefore, is that for 6 seconds flame shock isn't superior. Please edit
That's a big leap from what little evidence you provide for the alternative coefficients. Could you elaborate more on what your own testing methodology included and how you arrived at the different coefficients?

Since the total coefficient you're quoting is a 6% reduction over previous known values, it wouldn't be a shock that FS decreases in DPS over any time interval. So we really need evidence for the different coefficients if we're to make any conclusions regarding the current math.
#8177SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
• Exewut
If your weapons have the same speed then it doesn't matter which hand you use executioner/mongoose in. If one is faster than the other and executioner/mongoose is better than mongoose², then you should put executioner on the slowest, but the difference in uptime should be very small (compared to putting executioner on the fastest). To see if executioner is better you should just plug in the value's of the gear that you'll be using in the sim and run it. That should answer your question.

[e] this is in reference to post #8175

Last edited by Exewut : 03/30/08 at 12:59 PM.
#8178SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mano
Originally Posted by Malan
And yes, its not a "Flat coeffecient", it is indeed split between the DoT and the DD. But he's incorrect to say that I have to split that and can't add it up to 67%.
a% * X + b% * Y= (a%+b%) * (X + Y).

erm. Let's see, some (not so ) random values: a=30%, b=15%, X=100, Y=200.

30%* 100 + 15% * 200= 30 +30 = 60
(15%+30%) * (100+200)= 45%*300 = 135

therefore a% * X + b% * Y != (a%+b%) * (X + Y) in general.

EXCEPT for X==Y (and thus for X~=Y this approaches).


Not that this necessarily is relevant to the discussion if it's 67% coefficient for FlameShock.
#8179SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Atren
Originally Posted by Mano
erm. Let's see, some (not so ) random values: a=30%, b=15%, X=100, Y=200.

30%* 100 + 15% * 200= 30 +30 = 60
(15%+30%) * (100+200)= 45%*300 = 135

therefore a% * X + b% * Y != (a%+b%) * (X + Y) in general.

EXCEPT for X==Y (and thus for X~=Y this approaches).


Not that this necessarily is relevant to the discussion if it's 67% coefficient for FlameShock.
Thing you are missing it can still be equal to 67%. Just that A (instant) + B (Dot) =/= 67 does not mean their sum is not 67%. Now has anyone got actual numbers?
#8180SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Daler
Originally Posted by Atren
Thing you are missing it can still be equal to 67%. Just that A (instant) + B (Dot) =/= 67 does not mean their sum is not 67%. Now has anyone got actual numbers?
Actually. I believe what he was showing is that A*X + B*Y doesn't factor into (A + B)(X + Y) for all values of X and Y.

The latter becomes AX + AY + BX + BY, if basic algebra does not fail me this hungover Sunday afternoon.

However, what we're really looking at is A*X + B*X, so it doesn't matter if we do it as separate coefficients or combine them, as A*X + B*X does factor into (A+B)*X, where A and B are the coefficients and X is the spell damage.

I still would like to see Philomon's testing methodology for coming up with a 6% reduction in spell coefficients for Flame Shock, though. That would be significant.
#8181SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• Exewut
I have 3/5 consussion (+3% damage on shocks)

Tested on wetched fiends (the ones on the new island)

With 435 +fire damage: 484 + 153 153 153 damage
With 100 +fire damage: 410 + 119 118 118 damage

Without the talent that would be (divide above results with 1,03):

With 435 +fire damage: 470 + 446 damage
With 100 +fire damage: 398 + 345 damage



So 335 extra spelldamage gives 72 extra damage on the instant part (21% of the spelldamage) and 101 extra damage on the dot part (30% of the spelldamage), which adds up to 51%. Which is kind off, odd. Am I missing something obvious here?
#8182SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Daler
Actually. I believe what he was showing is that A*X + B*Y doesn't factor into (A + B)(X + Y) for all values of X and Y.

The latter becomes AX + AY + BX + BY, if basic algebra does not fail me this hungover Sunday afternoon.

However, what we're really looking at is A*X + B*X, so it doesn't matter if we do it as separate coefficients or combine them, as A*X + B*X does factor into (A+B)*X, where A and B are the coefficients and X is the spell damage.
Yes, Daler has the right idea of what I was getting at. Coefficients can be added together and multiplied by the total damage and it gives the same result. I should have made it Sum note instead to indicate that the summation takes priority over the multiplication.
#8183SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Wow Web Stats

This is our Brutallus kill on Saturday, I had Shard of Contempt equipped. If anyone wants to try to determine PPM from that. And before anyone asks, yeah that's in Tier 6.

(World first kill of Brutallus with no rogues! WTB better attendance on the slackers)
#8184SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Illundai
Wow Web Stats

This is our Brutallus kill on Saturday, I had Shard of Contempt equipped. If anyone wants to try to determine PPM from that. And before anyone asks, yeah that's in Tier 6.
You gained "Heroism" 8 times. Presumably one of these was you using your Heroism ability, but did you get Heroism from anyone else? If not, that means your trinket procced 7 times, and thus has a ~1 PPM. This is consistent with a 45 sec ICD and 10% proc rate.
#8185SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Ah yeah, no stacking Heroism. So 7 procs, yep.
Both Zaralol and Liight had it equipped too, they got 7 and 8 procs respectively.
#8186SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Furanon
I've noticed a peculiarity in the log Illundai has posted. While comparing it to my own and that of EJ's Shabadu I noticed you managed to use Stormstrike 47 times. This seems an odd number, particularly because the fight practically allows only 36 uses of this spell (6 minutes = 360 seconds, 360/10 = 36, discounting gcd and initial aggro limitations, enrage timer).

The numbers for the shocks seem to be accurate however. In all probablity combatlog data hasn't been archived properly, although I'm not quite sure why it didn't show for Shabadu's log, or any other I've seen thus far for Brutallus.

Last edited by Furanon : 03/31/08 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Spelling
#8187SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
◊ Rob
Stormstrike hits twice when you're dual wielding. By your math, you'd expect a bit under 72 hits. On that WWS, I see 47 non-crit hits and 21 crits for a total of 68 hits.

Last edited by Rob : 03/31/08 at 2:25 AM.
#8188SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Shakkha
Originally Posted by Rob
You gained "Heroism" 8 times. Presumably one of these was you using your Heroism ability, but did you get Heroism from anyone else? If not, that means your trinket procced 7 times, and thus has a ~1 PPM. This is consistent with a 45 sec ICD and 10% proc rate.
It's friggin annoying they called that proc Heroism... what idiot came up with that name?

Besides screwing up wws, I keep seeing gain heroism and wonder if i hit the wrong key :s
#8189SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Morelis
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
230ap * 20s duration / (45s cd + avarage time to get buff + 20s duration)...

Its huge its best but no that good that someones have hyped it.
Last and least. I got it and I like it.
The internal cooldown starts from when the proc happens, not when it expires. The trinket is extremely good, just wish I could get one to drop.
#8190SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Patrik
This seems to be a trend, as [Dragonspine Trophy]'s proc and buff from [Haste Potion] are also both called Haste.
#8191SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Pitbuller
230ap * 20s duration / (45s cd + avarage time to get buff) = 0.38uptime or 88ep

Thanks for noticing my oblivious mistake.
#8192SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Macar
Originally Posted by Lethnon
I have a quick question....

The main page states:

"However, Mongoose/Executioner or double Executioner will not outperform the dps benefit of double Mongoose unless the Enhancement Shaman is geared with nearly unobtainable values of Armor Penetration."

I am getting SSC/TK/T5 geared, and I am saving badges for the fists (I admit, I suck at PVP). Obviously I will be re-enchanting my weapons. But I couldn't find any mention of the value of Armor Pen that would be necessary, and I am a bit confused because later the main page says:

"At high T5 content and beyond, Executioner will become more valuable."

So, how do I determine the crossover point for a double mongoose vs. an executioner/mongoose? And, assuming the latter, which one would be the preferred on the MH?
Use Yo!'s simulator.
#8193SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Paksenarrion
Macros

If i have missed this at any point i am sorry.
And i suck at macro making


First of let me say that the Totem Twist macro on the front page aint working for me.
But now for my question. Is there anyway to make the totem twist macro show like a countdown on the Agi totem.

So after i press it the 2nd time to replace WF with AGi that it starts counting down so i see when to twist again. Or even just send me a /w or something
#8194SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Well, with my values Expertise has a value of 3.38.

(3.38 * 44) + 88 = 236.72. Considering the best next trinket is 160 AEP (DST) I'd say it is pretty damned good.
#8195SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Absolutely. It gives you AMAZING amount of expertise. It's just below your cap, so this means that with just one heroic, you're halfway capped with expertise. I mean, it's so big, it's noticeable.

Paksenarrion, if the macro isn't working for you, you could always download an addon that gives you timers for it. DisqoDice has a universal twist macro- it doesn't "care" if you're twisting with agility or with tranquil air totem, or with even spell dmg(tho why would you twist with spell dmg is beyond me, this is just an example).

Then again, I suppose one less bar on your screen would make it more clear, so you could always wait for more information about your problem with the macro.
#8196SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Nemaa
With Shard os Contempt, Belt of One Hundred Deaths and a gloves from Al'ar I managed to reach -5.5% dodge. During yesterday's Felmyst tries for about 6 hours 1.1% of my attacks were dodged. That sounds bosses have more than 5.6% dodge. So we need 103 expertise rating to reach the cap, right?
#8197SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bellante
Originally Posted by Paksenarrion
First of let me say that the Totem Twist macro on the front page aint working for me.
Doesn't work for me either, I just have shift+mousewheelup = WF, shift+mousewheeldown = Agi, fairly easy to control. Oh, and Disqodice ofc.
#8198SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Yo!
+ Added simulation for 6 most popular "on use" trinkets
+ Added Darkmoon Card: Wrath (reports uptime for at least 1 crit stack)
+ Added Darkmoon Card: Crusade (reports uptime for at least 1 spell stack)
+ Added Shard of Contempt as 10% for +230 ap for 20 sec outside 45 sec hidden cooldown
+ Added Improved Sancity Aura to buffs page
+ Added 3 static food alternatives
+ Added Stormchops! (to test its synergy with Elemental Devastation and/or Wrath Card - suprisingly it outperforms +20 str food sometimes) - adds to shocks in report
+ Re-enabled Drums (select how many drums are being played over 2 minutes - 4 means constant +80 haste rating)
+ Fixed bug with ranks 1&2 of Elemental Devastation
+ Fixed bug with dual-wielding miss chance being used when not dual-wielding
+ Fixed bug with Roasted Clefthoof providing no benefit

Have a question - zone 5% buff, pala 2% aura, hunter's ferocious inspiration - do they affect Searing Totem damage?
#8199SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Yo!
Have a question - zone 5% buff, pala 2% aura, hunter's ferocious inspiration - do they affect Searing Totem damage?
Zone buffs only work in 5 mans, so I'm not sure I see the point of implementing them.
#8200SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bragor
So did anybody start using instant ghost wolf in most encounters ?

Been using it like a nut case on Kalegcos to run faster to the portals & Really saved my butt a few times.
#8201SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bargle
Here's a log from Illidari Council last night w/ Shard of Contempt.
Wow Web Stats

14 Shard procs (2 shaman heroisms) for ~40.8% uptime.
Kyawwin also had 14 shard procs (1 shaman heroism) for ~41.1% uptime.
#8202SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
frozndevl
This is a question or two about comparing the results of Yo!'s sim to actual in game results, and yes, I do understand that the simulator is best case scenario which never quite happens. Using the sim, I get somewhere around 1250-1300dps in my results; I have just been accepting the default buffs while changing to Agility Elixirs, no pots, and adding 1 drum rotation. My paperdoll is a bit messed up as I was wearing all my Karazhan and Zul'Aman gear for kicks when I logged out last night. Off the top of my head I've got unbuffed stats of

1490ap
29.2% crit
110 hit rating
7% haste
252 Armor Penetration
S1 Gladiator Axes with Mongoose
Hourglass, Abacus for trinkets
~240str and ~230agil

I've only recently started 25-mans and have successfully run Gruul, Mag (pre- and post- nerf), and an unsuccesful Void Reaver last week. In these fights the highest sustained DPS I've been able to manage is 800. I'm a clicker on Mag and melee is always running in and out on VR, so I can see why those would be lower. My shock rotation is a bit off as it is reflect to still use ES whenever cooldown is up, and I am twisting which slows down some usage of other abilities. I am also holding off on my SS if it is within 2-3 seconds.

We are going to give Lurker a try this week and...

1) Is this sort of dropoff from sim to reality customary?
2) Is lurker a better indicator or not because of the adds?
3) Is my sim result just completely off?

Last edited by frozndevl : 03/31/08 at 11:59 AM.
#8203SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
/cast [nostance] Ghost Wolf
Spammable macro.
Its only use ghost wolf if you are regualar form. In ghost wolf form it do nothing.
No wasted mana or gCD and never accident cancel form.
I use it when running between trash mobs in sunwell or when I have to catch portal.
By the way its reset swing timer.

I would say that 0/45/16 with improved ghost wolf is new cookie cutter spec.



Edit: Thanks Bren, /cast [nostance, outdoors] Ghost Wolf
I didnt want to add all modiefier that I use myself. I just wanted it look simple.
Same button can also be your land/fly mount button but this is other section stuff.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 03/31/08 at 1:07 PM.
#8204SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Mindrila
Well doing MH yesterday with instant ghostwolf was really nice, running after all those adds becomes quite enjoyable.
Also running away with doom is so easy I got boered waiting for death.

For me it's really a nice skill and well 2% decreased dodge rate won't kill me that often.
#8205SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0ChaguraED
Yo!'s Sim - Darkmoon Card: Crusade

Quick question,

With the addition of Darkmoon Card: Crusade to Yo!'s Sim, should I not be adding it's 120AP to my base stats now?

I tested with and without and it appears to add the 120AP on it's own now, I just wanted to confirm.

Thanks
#8206SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Malan
That's correct. Note however that if you decide to test something like Shard of Contempt, that you need to add the expertise to the stats section, as that is not accounted for when you add it as a trinket. (I found out when I tried replacing a trinket with the shard and my DPS shot down by 30-40 dps)
#8207SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Bren
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
/cast [nostance] Ghost Wolf
Spammable macro.
Its only use ghost wolf if you are regualar form. In ghost wolf form it do nothing.
No wasted mana or gCD and never accident cancel form.
I use it when running between trash mobs in sunwell or when I have to catch portal.
By the way its reset swing timer.

I would say that 0/45/16 with improved ghost wolf is new cookie cutter spec.
/cast [nostance, outdoors] Ghost Wolf
get's rid of the error message when indoors.
#8208SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Piestein
Wonderful , but can we confirm that it is better then the 2% Avoidance? I mean, it should be for encounters where you got to run a lot: Mount Hyjal, Black Temple, Sunwell(haven't been there yet, but soon will be). And 2 % avoidance always seemed to me like a filler : you shouldn't get attacked anyways in most cases and even if you do, those 2% will do very little to save you.
#8209SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Rob
2% dodge always has been a filler, just to dodge that cleave when you were lined up wrong or dodge that hit when somebody pulled aggro an extra 1 out of 50 times.

Imp Ghost Wolf is easily worth taking for the PvP and non-raid PvE utility IMO.
#8210SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Strygwyr
Can anyone please explain why it is that Yo's simulator gives me such a low value for expertise now that i have 18 expertise rating on each hand? maybe a rather simple question, but it is puzzling me.
#8211SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0• Vissi
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
Can anyone please explain why it is that Yo's simulator gives me such a low value for expertise now that i have 18 expertise rating on each hand? maybe a rather simple question, but it is puzzling me.
Because you are closer to the Expertise cap.
#8212SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Meso
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
Can anyone please explain why it is that Yo's simulator gives me such a low value for expertise now that i have 18 expertise rating on each hand? maybe a rather simple question, but it is puzzling me.
Same thing happened to me. After getting Shard of Contempt and the T6 belt my Shoulderpads of the Stranger went down to 181.25 AEP so I could finally replace them with my banked Mantle of Darkness (198.28 AEP).
#8213SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Rob
Originally Posted by Meso
Same thing happened to me. After getting Shard of Contempt and the T6 belt my Shoulderpads of the Stranger went down to 181.25 AEP so I could finally replace them with my banked Mantle of Darkness (198.28 AEP).
I hope you tried running the two gear combos against each other and comparing DPS, because if I saw a sharp drop in the EP of expertise I'd wonder if the sim was hitting the cap when it calculated the value of additional expertise.
#8214SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Meso
Originally Posted by Rob
I hope you tried running the two gear combos against each other and comparing DPS, because if I saw a sharp drop in the EP of expertise I'd wonder if the sim was hitting the cap when it calculated the value of additional expertise.
Ok, I should have done that. I got 1718 dps with Shoulderpads of the Stranger and 1716 dps with Mantle of Darkness, but its still tempting to use them just to get rid of those horrible looking Shoulderpads of the Stranger. >>
#8215SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0◊ Binkenstein
Expertise is like hit in a way.

It's useful up until the "cap", then any extra points will be worthless. So if you have a potential dps gain from attaining the expertise cap of X, and require Y rating to get there (I don't know the exact figure) as we go over Y each additional rating (A) will reduce the EP value for expertise rating (Z)

\frac {X}{Y+A}\ = Z
#8216SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Undernet01
Wait a sec,

The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
#8217SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.0Illundai
Originally Posted by Undernet01
Wait a sec,

The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
The increase in white damage evens it out.
#8218SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1panta
Originally Posted by Illundai
The increase in white damage evens it out.
Though that makes me wonder a bit. We don't need +hit rating that much simply because our white dmg makes out about 40-45% of our overall dmg, the rest of it is allready hit capped by talents (not counting shocks ofc). When enh shaman starts to boost his haste rating, starts to loose some wf procs and the percentage of white swings increases respectively. Is my logic right when i say: "the more haste rating i have, the more plus hit i'd need to compensate the increase of contribution of white swings in overall dmg". That kind of gets me to the point where i wonder if it is that much of a needed stat at all.

Of course i don't have a testing background behind this and i would just like to know whether i'm thinking right.
#8219SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1falonub
Originally Posted by panta
Though that makes me wonder a bit. We don't need +hit rating that much simply because our white dmg makes out about 40-45% of our overall dmg, the rest of it is allready hit capped by talents (not counting shocks ofc). When enh shaman starts to boost his haste rating, starts to loose some wf procs and the percentage of white swings increases respectively. Is my logic right when i say: "the more haste rating i have, the more plus hit i'd need to compensate the increase of contribution of white swings in overall dmg". That kind of gets me to the point where i wonder if it is that much of a needed stat at all.

Of course i don't have a testing background behind this and i would just like to know whether i'm thinking right.
The more haste you have, the higher the AEP value of your hit rating will become. That is my remembering from reading replies awhile back.
#8220SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Thats why we have Yo's Sim and ep values. Don't try manually calculate what is good or not. Check it with sim in every case.
#8221SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tana Umaga
Okay, what happened to me yesterday...

I saw a lot of misses on my WF attacks, something that didn´t happen before... (or at least I wasn´t aware). As I have 0/45/16 standart builld, I should be hit capped for yellow damage, and even with a 1% unavoidable miss chance, I missed quite a lot. Is there any kind of mechanics I don´t know about, or has something secretly changed in 2.4? Or is just a (huge) bunch of bad luck? I even got 2 misses in a single WF combo...

PD Can´t wait to purchase the new badge fist-weapon combo... (i know, no one cares and unrelated, but just couldn´t hide it xDD)
#8222SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Tana Umaga
Okay, what happened to me yesterday...

I saw a lot of misses on my WF attacks, something that didn´t happen before... (or at least I wasn´t aware). As I have 0/45/16 standart builld, I should be hit capped for yellow damage, and even with a 1% unavoidable miss chance, I missed quite a lot. Is there any kind of mechanics I don´t know about, or has something secretly changed in 2.4? Or is just a (huge) bunch of bad luck? I even got 2 misses in a single WF combo...

PD Can´t wait to purchase the new badge fist-weapon combo... (i know, no one cares and unrelated, but just couldn´t hide it xDD)
"I saw a lot of misses on my WF attacks." Prove it?
"Even with a 1% unavoidable miss chance." WRONG.
You was in hyjal? right? Check if you have curse -66% to hit.

"Can´t wait to purchase the new badge fist-weapon combo..." Boring.

Last edited by Pitbuller : 04/01/08 at 6:15 AM.
#8223SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1david0925
Originally Posted by Undernet01
Wait a sec,

The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
The idea is that Slow weapon is better than fast weapon, all else set equal.

When you add haste rating into the equation, Slower weapons are still slower than the faster options. The chances of it proccing windfury is still a flat 20%, although if you haste it enough you might have possible proc not going off due to 3 second cooldown. And yes, when you reach that point (i doubt anyone can aside from using Hyjal necromancer's Unholy Frenzy) your gain in white attacks will vastly outpace the loss of yellow through loss of possible windfury procs.
#8224SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1david0925
Originally Posted by Tana Umaga
Okay, what happened to me yesterday...

I saw a lot of misses on my WF attacks, something that didn´t happen before... (or at least I wasn´t aware). As I have 0/45/16 standart builld, I should be hit capped for yellow damage, and even with a 1% unavoidable miss chance, I missed quite a lot. Is there any kind of mechanics I don´t know about, or has something secretly changed in 2.4? Or is just a (huge) bunch of bad luck? I even got 2 misses in a single WF combo...

PD Can´t wait to purchase the new badge fist-weapon combo... (i know, no one cares and unrelated, but just couldn´t hide it xDD)
You cannot miss yellow unless you were during Hyjal and got cursed by the banshee. The curse reduces hit chance by 66%. If that's not the case, we'll need a screenshot of your combat log or miss coming out of your head. Until then we'll probably not take you very seriously.

There's no "unavoidable 1% miss chance". That only applies to spells, not physical abilities.
#8225SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
The chances of proccing windfury is still a flat 36%
#8226SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
david0925
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
The chances of proccing windfury is still a flat 36%
Do you mean stormstrike when you said 36%? Since it is attacking with both weapons. On white hits, each hit should be 20%, unless i'm missing something.

edit: resolved.

Last edited by david0925 : 04/01/08 at 7:24 AM.
#8227SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1mek
No, he meant 36%, you are missing something.

The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
It may not significantly increase your windfury proc rate, since it is capped, but hitting more could never significantly reduce your windfury proc rate. It was theorized that this could be possible in very special circumstances but modelling has demonstrated that haste always increases dps.
#8228SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1david0925
Originally Posted by mek
No, he meant 36%, you are missing something.



It may not significantly increase your windfury proc rate, since it is capped, but hitting more could never significantly reduce your windfury proc rate. It was theorized that this could be possible in very special circumstances but modelling has demonstrated that haste always increases dps.
yeah, I went over the first page again. Seems like just a bit of minor misunderstanding and communication on my part.
#8229SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Merple
Ok, this question isn't specific to Enhancement Shamans alone, but this is probably the best place to ask it.

If you've got a 10-man crew with a Ret Paladin and a Fury Warrior, with a bear tanking, is there any _possible_ class configuration that would justify putting the shaman in the other group for WoA?
#8230SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bren
Someone talked about Unleashed Rage generating threat again some pages ago. So I tested it with another guildmember: He bodypulled a mob and I attacked the next one to proc Unleashed Rage. I didn't pull aggro off him with proccing several times (and I made sure he got the buff). This was in Nagrand, so unless there's some weird special case in instances or with specific mobs Unleashed Rage still doesn't generate threat.
#8231SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• fangar
Originally Posted by Merple
Ok, this question isn't specific to Enhancement Shamans alone, but this is probably the best place to ask it.

If you've got a 10-man crew with a Ret Paladin and a Fury Warrior, with a bear tanking, is there any _possible_ class configuration that would justify putting the shaman in the other group for WoA?
Get out...

(think about warrior and paladin mechanics and the answer should be clear though in that WF or nothing)
#8232SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Originally Posted by mek
No, he meant 36%, you are missing something.



It may not significantly increase your windfury proc rate, since it is capped, but hitting more could never significantly reduce your windfury proc rate. It was theorized that this could be possible in very special circumstances but modelling has demonstrated that haste always increases dps.
I'd amend that to say:

Originally Posted by mek
It was theorized and shown in very controlled models that lowering dps via haste rating is easily achievable with the right combinations of talents, gear, and procs, but the same modelling has also demonstrated that haste always increases dps when using realistic in-game talents, gear, and procs.
#8233SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Undernet01
The idea is that an item with a 2.6 makes a Windfury proc more than with a fast weapon, such as a Dagger... But then we get into the talk about Haste Rating... Haste Rating changes the Weapon Speed, giving you a faster weapon... Though wouldn't that make your Windfury's Proc Rate considerably less?
You got it wrong. It's not that a 2.6s weapon makes Windfury proc MORE than a fast weapon, it's that a 2.6s weapon hits HARDER than a fast weapon. A fast weapon actually will proc windfury more often than a slow one; however, the cooldown means you're never going to get more than one proc every three seconds. This means you never get enough additional WF procs due to speed to make up for the lower damage of a fast weapon.

Besides; even without the WF cooldown, you'd get more benefit from a slower weapon due to Stormstrike.

Haste speeds a weapon up while keeping its damage constant. Thus, in addition to increasing your autoattack dps, you get the benefit of slightly increased Windfury procs without the penalty of doing less damage. Haste is a good thing; and the more hit/crit/armor pen/AP you have, the better it gets.
#8234SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Physics
this has prob been asked, just too much info to read threw. I am currently using syphon/tide. My question is i am considering using the 2 badge fist weapons. The haste is very tempting. My only concern is the weapon speed. 2.50 is abit fast compaired to what we have been taught and from what we have been using.
#8235SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Merple
If you've got a 10-man crew with a Ret Paladin and a Fury Warrior, with a bear tanking, is there any _possible_ class configuration that would justify putting the shaman in the other group for WoA?
Sure. Three enhancement shamans. Put the one that sucks in group 2. If none of them suck, the one in group 2 should drop GoA for himself.

The only time I ever drop WoA is in 5-mans consisting of a paladin tank and three casters, and even then it's mostly out of courtesy.
#8236SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Physics
this has prob been asked, just too much info to read threw.
Yes, it has been asked. Repeatedly. And none of us are going to give you an answer because this is asked on every single page and the answer is always the same.
#8237SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1automatica
Originally Posted by Physics
this has prob been asked, just too much info to read threw. I am currently using syphon/tide. My question is i am considering using the 2 badge fist weapons. The haste is very tempting. My only concern is the weapon speed. 2.50 is abit fast compaired to what we have been taught and from what we have been using.
There's no need to read "through" every page to find the answer. The search utility is very friendly and you'll find many responses. The easiest place to find your answer is on page 1.
#8238SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Bren
Someone talked about Unleashed Rage generating threat again some pages ago. So I tested it with another guildmember: He bodypulled a mob and I attacked the next one to proc Unleashed Rage. I didn't pull aggro off him with proccing several times (and I made sure he got the buff). This was in Nagrand, so unless there's some weird special case in instances or with specific mobs Unleashed Rage still doesn't generate threat.
Something is generating AoE threat. Maybe it's Flurry. I don't know what it is, but something is. I sacrificed a 40g repair bill last night in heroic MrT showing this on several pulls in a row to prove the point to the others in the group. I was running with:

Prot Paladin
Holy Paladin
Fire Mage
Survival Hunter

Prot paladin would pull a big group (5-6 mobs including the warlock's imp pet) using Avenger's Shield. I stand in one place, wait for imp to come by, hit Stormstrike (imp was always dead long before the GCD was up to Shock it, so it wasn't a [Stonebreaker's Totem] proc), and every mob that wasn't hit by Avenger's Shield would turn and start killing me. I did this on 5 or 6 separate pulls with the exact same effect every time. If I just Earth Shocked the imp from range and didn't melee (i.e., didn't proc UR or Flurry), everything else would completely ignore me and keep running at the tank. Similarly, if the tank didn't pull perfectly out of LoS and a caster could keep shooting him without stepping on the consecrate, I would occasionally end up with it on me after hitting the primary DPS target.

However, I realize this contradicts your testing in Nagrand. I honestly don't know what the difference is, which is why I provided the group makeup on the chance I'm missing some key element. The only thing I can figure out is maybe my [Hourglass of the Unraveller] procced every single time I tried, but that seems unlikely--I admit I didn't look for it in my combat log, though.

[e] It's also possible that mobs will occasionally stop following whoever they're after if someone new pops onto their threat table and both players have zero actual threat on the mob, and the original player is out of LoS while the new one is immediately available to be hit. I honestly don't know.

Last edited by Rhaegal : 04/01/08 at 1:51 PM.
#8239SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1BoinKlasik
water shield proc?
#8240SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Daler
Please delete

Last edited by Daler : 04/01/08 at 2:18 PM. Reason: Need to learn to read :(
#8241SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
He means the trash mobs not the boss pull.

At any rate, I'd say that you aren't doing a very controlled test of this. If the paladin is pulling with shield and then running out of LoS, and you are the closest valid target then of course they're going to shift to you.

Unleashed Rage is probably applying some very small amount of threat as a buff gain, same as most abilities do, but what you're describing is not UR "yanking" in an AoE manner. Note that bren who posted above you tested in a much more controlled environment and was unable to yank off someone who body pulled a mob.
#8242SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Daler
From what I've read and experienced, the adds on Delrissa don't follow a threat table in the usual manner, so that's probably not the best encounter to test AoE threat from procs.
Malan is correct. As I stated above, I tested this on many different trash pulls, not on that boss.

It was also not a water shield proc, at least not on the imp-killing scenarios - those imps don't have a melee attack, and nothing else was doing anything to cause a proc.

This was mainly annoying because it was acting differently than I've experienced in the past. MrT is hardly the only instance that has pulls with a low-hp, low-damage add that can be insta-killed on pull - Shadow Labyrinth is a prime example, which I've run on heroic many times pre-patch with the same tank and never had a similar experience. The difference there is LoS--it's not as handy to pull those groups around a corner, so they didn't switch targets.

Perhaps the whole thing can just be explained by line of sight, and the ones that didn't appear to have a problem hitting the tank ended up on me because of a water shield proc from a glaive throw, or a totem proc, or an hourglass proc, or any number of other things. If I can get some people to help, I'll try to do some more controlled tests, but all I can really offer in the meantime is that it feels like it's generating some small amount of threat. I'll see if I can wrangle someone into helping out.
#8243SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
#8244SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Saliik
Expertise question

I've been searching this thread all morning, but not been able to come across anyone addressing this issue. If it's a duplicate question, I apologize, so feel free to delete it.

I've recently been running Yo's simulator with the added expertise values I expect to get from the [Shard of Contempt], and I noticed an odd effect. With 5 expertise, the EP is around 2.88, which seems to be consistent with what has been posted in other locations. However, when I increase my expertise to 16, the EP drops to 1.8 or so. I know that stat changes will alter the EP somewhat, but I wouldn't expect this amount of shift, as to my knowledge, there aren't really any diminishing returns on expertise.

My guess is it has something to do with the calculation of expertise EP by checking the difference of +10 exp. If you are within 10 exp of the cap, this will naturally result in a much smaller gain than 10x the value of 1 exp. Or am I just off base, and this is expected behavior of increasing expertise?

Also, I noticed that in the OP it says bosses are believed to have a 5.6% dodge (23 exp cap), but then a few weeks ago, there was some discussion about determining boss dodge rates. However, that discussion seems to have died with no result posted. Is 5.6% still the assumed dodge chance, or is that still in question?
#8245SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1automatica
Originally Posted by iconocclast
My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
The best thing you can do is run comparisons with Yo's simulator. Run it once with the stats from your 4-piece T5 gear and run it a second time with the stats from the badge pieces you're interested in.
#8246SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1automatica
Originally Posted by Saliik
I've been searching this thread all morning, but not been able to come across anyone addressing this issue. If it's a duplicate question, I apologize, so feel free to delete it.

I've recently been running Yo's simulator with the added expertise values I expect to get from the [Shard of Contempt], and I noticed an odd effect. With 5 expertise, the EP is around 2.88, which seems to be consistent with what has been posted in other locations. However, when I increase my expertise to 16, the EP drops to 1.8 or so. I know that stat changes will alter the EP somewhat, but I wouldn't expect this amount of shift, as to my knowledge, there aren't really any diminishing returns on expertise.

My guess is it has something to do with the calculation of expertise EP by checking the difference of +10 exp. If you are within 10 exp of the cap, this will naturally result in a much smaller gain than 10x the value of 1 exp. Or am I just off base, and this is expected behavior of increasing expertise?

Also, I noticed that in the OP it says bosses are believed to have a 5.6% dodge (23 exp cap), but then a few weeks ago, there was some discussion about determining boss dodge rates. However, that discussion seems to have died with no result posted. Is 5.6% still the assumed dodge chance, or is that still in question?
There's a conversation regarding this on the previous page.
#8247SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daler
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
Malan is correct. As I stated above, I tested this on many different trash pulls, not on that boss.

It was also not a water shield proc, at least not on the imp-killing scenarios - those imps don't have a melee attack, and nothing else was doing anything to cause a proc.

This was mainly annoying because it was acting differently than I've experienced in the past. MrT is hardly the only instance that has pulls with a low-hp, low-damage add that can be insta-killed on pull - Shadow Labyrinth is a prime example, which I've run on heroic many times pre-patch with the same tank and never had a similar experience. The difference there is LoS--it's not as handy to pull those groups around a corner, so they didn't switch targets.

Perhaps the whole thing can just be explained by line of sight, and the ones that didn't appear to have a problem hitting the tank ended up on me because of a water shield proc from a glaive throw, or a totem proc, or an hourglass proc, or any number of other things. If I can get some people to help, I'll try to do some more controlled tests, but all I can really offer in the meantime is that it feels like it's generating some small amount of threat. I'll see if I can wrangle someone into helping out.
If it's not a water shield proc, the mana spring tick could still do it. As small as it is, the power gain does cause some global threat, so for the mobs that don't get hit by Avenger's Shield, it makes sense that a MS totem tick could cause you to pull aggro.

I'd say eliminate any power gains and see if it still happens. If you've already done this, then I'm as confused as you are.
#8248SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by iconocclast
Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
To break the 4 piece bonus, the combined increase in EP of the upgrades you're switching to will need to exceed the value of the bonus.

The flurry bonus is worth 5 * 15.7 * your flurry uptime * your haste rating EP value.

So let's say your flurry uptime is 75%. If Haste Rating is worth 1.4 EP, then the bonus is worth 82 EP. I seriously doubt the badge chestpiece is an 82 EP upgrade for you...so unless you intend on swapping 2 or 3 pieces, I'd stick with the chest.
#8249SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Saliik
Originally Posted by automatica
There's a conversation regarding this on the previous page.
Ah, my apologies, not sure how I missed that. Rob's comment seems to be along the lines of what I was suspecting.


So, is there way to get accurate EP values for expertise values between 13 and 23? (assuming the cap is still considered 23). It seems just because the sim is hitting the cap, I shouldn't lower the value of each point until I hit the cap. Or is the only real way to just compare DPS values for any changes in gear involving exp items?

Edit:
I did some math to figure out what the EP should be with the given results from the sim. I made the assumption that the sim basically takes the change in DPS from adding 10 Exp, and then divides it by (10 * DPS per EP). If I'm at 16 expertise, I'd have to "undo" this calculation part way to get the DPS change, then divide by (7 * DPS per EP). The change in DPS as well as the DPS per EP both cancel out, and I'm left with the formula:

real Expertise EP = (10*EP)/(23-Exp)

where EP is the amount shown in Yo's sim, and Exp is the current amount of expertise I have. This results in an EP of 2.63 which is much more in line with what I would have expected, given the prior value of expertise.

Last edited by Saliik : 04/01/08 at 5:06 PM.
#8250SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Undernet01
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
You got it wrong. It's not that a 2.6s weapon makes Windfury proc MORE than a fast weapon, it's that a 2.6s weapon hits HARDER than a fast weapon. A fast weapon actually will proc windfury more often than a slow one; however, the cooldown means you're never going to get more than one proc every three seconds. This means you never get enough additional WF procs due to speed to make up for the lower damage of a fast weapon.

Besides; even without the WF cooldown, you'd get more benefit from a slower weapon due to Stormstrike.

Haste speeds a weapon up while keeping its damage constant. Thus, in addition to increasing your autoattack dps, you get the benefit of slightly increased Windfury procs without the penalty of doing less damage. Haste is a good thing; and the more hit/crit/armor pen/AP you have, the better it gets.
Hmm, I'm still not convinced, but then again I just might not be on the same page as everyone else here... /confused.
#8251SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Hedin
Redone my WF3sec, It's now for China players only...

#8252SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Hedin, that's awesome! Grats on the Eastern uptake :-)
#8253SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Psychodays
Brutalis WWS

I checked out the top 20 Brutalis WWS to look at the different enhance shamans. On the low side Morphling with 1639 dps. Notice his 15.9% swing miss rate and 1.6% WF/SS miss rate. At the top Tommyw and Reuben with ~1850 dps

Reubens armory is similar to Morphlings but, Rueben had the benefits of both a Retadin and Oomkin. That put his crits over 40% and decreased his miss rates. Tommyw really stood out though, check out his 4.7% miss rate with his regular swings. Armory shows him at 22 expertise and 210 hit

Pretty interesting how much expertise/hit improve dps.
#8254SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
Boss mobs are currently believed to have 5.6% dodge vs a player. It will take 23 Expertise (91 Rating) to remove Dodge from the attack table versus a boss mob.

Out of curiosity, why is that listed in the OP under 3.1.3 HASTE RATING?
#8255SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tana Umaga
Here´s the proof.

WFmiss

I was wrong, ok, no 1% unavoidable miss chance. So why WF miss?
#8256SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by iconocclast
Out of curiosity, why is that listed in the OP under 3.1.3 HASTE RATING?
Failure on my part to insert text properly I guess.
#8257SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rapparee
Originally Posted by Tana Umaga
Here´s the proof.

WFmiss

I was wrong, ok, no 1% unavoidable miss chance. So why WF miss?
yellow text in the right side of your screenshot
white hit 233
WF parried
WF hit 444

blue text on the left side of the screen
OH windfury 677 (1 miss)
#8258SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Hey, I just noticed [Seeker's Gavel] and [K'iru's Presage] are one handed...once enchanted & oiled, they'll offer 351 +heal and 211 +spell damage respectively. This is a few times more than the best shields or offhand "frills". Dual wielded with decent main hands (such as the Shatar/LC maces), they should offer a nice mid-fight swappable boost for top-up healing, LB spam on fight segments that aren't melee friendly or for pre-pull boosts for the Searing Totem.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 04/01/08 at 5:15 PM.
#8259SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Grizlor
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Hey, I just noticed [Seeker's Gavel] and [K'iru's Presage] are one handed...once enchanted & oiled, they'll offer 351 +heal and 211 +spell damage respectively. This is a few times more than the best shields or offhand "frills". Dual wielded with decent main hands (such as the Shatar/LC maces), they should offer a nice mid-fight swappable boost for top-up healing, LB spam on fight segments that aren't melee friendly or for pre-pull boosts for the Searing Totem.

Nerfed in today's patch.
#8260SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Strygwyr
Wow Web Stats WWS for our most recent BT clear with Shard of Contempt.
From what I can tell, the shard PPM was 1.2 for me.
Works out at about 50 seconds. My estimate for a base 2.6/2.6 speed was 53 seconds, so I'd say that's fairly accurate.
#8261SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mengus
Originally Posted by Rapparee
yellow text in the right side of your screenshot
white hit 233
WF parried
WF hit 444

blue text on the left side of the screen
OH windfury 677 (1 miss)
The same reason you have to expand the detail in WWS, parries, dodges, blocks are counted as 'misses' until you drill down.
#8262SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Mengus
The same reason you have to expand the detail in WWS, parries, dodges, blocks are counted as 'misses' until you drill down.
Yeah -- if you eyeball the numbers going down the RIGHT side of the screen, we have a white attack for 233, a WF parry, and a WF attack for 444. Add 'em all up, and you've got 677 damage for the "attack," plus one non-hit, which your SCT mod is calling a "miss."
#8263SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Aximous
Originally Posted by Saliik
Also, I noticed that in the OP it says bosses are believed to have a 5.6% dodge (23 exp cap), but then a few weeks ago, there was some discussion about determining boss dodge rates. However, that discussion seems to have died with no result posted. Is 5.6% still the assumed dodge chance, or is that still in question?
The other assumption was 6,5% dodge rate, just did some trys on illidan with the shard with a total of 6% dodge reduction from expertise, and I still got dodges on stormstrike. So 6,5% seems a little more correct value.
WWS
#8264SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yakout
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Hey, I just noticed [Seeker's Gavel] and [K'iru's Presage] are one handed...once enchanted & oiled, they'll offer 351 +heal and 211 +spell damage respectively. This is a few times more than the best shields or offhand "frills". Dual wielded with decent main hands (such as the Shatar/LC maces), they should offer a nice mid-fight swappable boost for top-up healing, LB spam on fight segments that aren't melee friendly or for pre-pull boosts for the Searing Totem.
This was, alas, hotfixed out of existence last week, and confirmed dead with this week's patch. They nailed [Terokk's Gavel] and the other lingering 1h spell damage weapons at the same time.

If you still want to go this route, your remaining best recourse is a 70 random green DPS axe, fist, or mace "of the Invoker/Sorcerer", but at +138/83 or +96 (healing or spell damage enchants, respectively, plus oil) it's a lot less appealing than a "real" caster weapon in the offhand. Still, for offspec healing (cringe) it'll beat most shields, at least after oiling...
#8265SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Occultus456
Originally Posted by Psychodays
I checked out the top 20 Brutalis WWS to look at the different enhance shamans. On the low side Morphling with 1639 dps. Notice his 15.9% swing miss rate and 1.6% WF/SS miss rate. At the top Tommyw and Reuben with ~1850 dps

Reubens armory is similar to Morphlings but, Rueben had the benefits of both a Retadin and Oomkin. That put his crits over 40% and decreased his miss rates. Tommyw really stood out though, check out his 4.7% miss rate with his regular swings. Armory shows him at 22 expertise and 210 hit

Pretty interesting how much expertise/hit improve dps.
Got 1881DPS today @our Killing Try with only 135 Hit and 44 Expertise Rating (Shard of Conempt), but with high Armor Penetration (1519 with Executioner Proc).
Here is my Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory

There are missing several items from BT and MH, so i think its an encounter where you can get the 2k DPS with some lucky WF Crits. We are using Retribution Paladin,SV Hunter, but no Moonkin.

All in all VERY nice encounter for Enhancement Shamans i think. Any other experiences @Brut with Armor Pen. Gear?

Recount Screen: http://s5.directupload.net/images/080401/7d2xjscb.jpg
#8266SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Stormstrike and windfury are actually pretty poor indicators of what the dodge rate is. The number of procs/usages you get from those 2 abilities during even a full BT clear of bosses is low enough that adding 1 or 2 more missed would pretty significantly fuck up your percentages.

Originally Posted by Occultus456
ut with high Armor Penetration (1519 with Executioner Proc).[/url]
Call me crazy but even if I decided to count executioner as the full 840 Armor Pen, your belt, cloak and neck do not add up to 700 additional penetration.
#8267SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tana Umaga
Originally Posted by Rapparee
yellow text in the right side of your screenshot
white hit 233
WF parried
WF hit 444

blue text on the left side of the screen
OH windfury 677 (1 miss)
Okay, fake. I see your point and I see the fail must be on SCT, because i´ve been closely reviewing the combat log and no wf miss appears (what made me panic is that both SCT and Shaman Friend showed WF doged, WF parried and WF missed).

Sorry for the inconvinience.
#8268SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tambard
Originally Posted by Malan
Stormstrike and windfury are actually pretty poor indicators of what the dodge rate is. The number of procs/usages you get from those 2 abilities during even a full BT clear of bosses is low enough that adding 1 or 2 more missed would pretty significantly fuck up your percentages.


Call me crazy but even if I decided to count executioner as the full 840 Armor Pen, your belt, cloak and neck do not add up to 700 additional penetration.
Choker - 175
Cloak - 112
MH - 49
OH - 140
Belt - 77
Ring - 126
__________
679
#8269SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Geims
Hi.
I love this forum and specially this thread.

I'm Skyshaker and I have a question.

I use [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Dragonspine Trophy].

I just crafted [Alchemist's Stone] becouse I want to craft [Assassin's Alchemist Stone]...

Can you add those two trinket in section 3.5 with the EP?

It's [Alchemist's Stone] better than [Hourglass of the Unraveller]?



Edited wrong english words... If you see other error please help me to save my idiocy.
Have a good life. =)
Geims

Last edited by Geims : 04/02/08 at 8:20 PM.
#8270SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Undernet01
One of the more prevalent suggestions is that Enhance Shaman should optimize their DPS by speccing into Elemental for a 5 second shock cooldown, 5% increased shock damage, and of course the Elemental Devastation Talent, typically achieved by removing points from Mental Quickness and/or Improved Weapon Totems for an 18/43/0 build.

The logic of this build is fundamentally flawed. A properly geared Enhancement Shaman will have at most a 6% spell crit rate from Intellect. Under perfect conditions this will amount to a 1% crit gain from Elemental Devastation. Under not-so-perfect conditions, this talent would be negligible and worthless to an Enhancement shaman.
The probability of getting 2 crit shocks in a row at 6% spell crit, in order to sustain the extra melee crit bonus of Elemental Devastation, is 1-(1- 0.6)^2 = 0.118. That's about 12% uptime of an extra 1% crit from 3 talent points.



Can you please elaborate on which Spec would be best for an Enhancement Shaman? (Possibility of using a Talent Calculator and linking to that?)

I did Search for the Answers but wasn't really able to find anything relative.
#8271SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Undernet01
Can you please elaborate on which Spec would be best for an Enhancement Shaman? (Possibility of using a Talent Calculator and linking to that?)

I did Search for the Answers but wasn't really able to find anything relative.
What you're looking for is this thread: Enhancement Cage Match: Two specs enter, One spec leaves
#8272SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Rob
I'm a fan of this build for having almost everything you'd want for PvE and almost everything you'd want for PvP. (Got us to 2126 5v5 in two nights.)
#8273SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Brasidas
Originally Posted by Psychodays
I checked out the top 20 Brutalis WWS to look at the different enhance shamans. On the low side Morphling with 1639 dps. Notice his 15.9% swing miss rate and 1.6% WF/SS miss rate. At the top Tommyw and Reuben with ~1850 dps

Reubens armory is similar to Morphlings but, Rueben had the benefits of both a Retadin and Oomkin. That put his crits over 40% and decreased his miss rates. Tommyw really stood out though, check out his 4.7% miss rate with his regular swings. Armory shows him at 22 expertise and 210 hit

Pretty interesting how much expertise/hit improve dps.
Nothing like having a Retadin and Oomkin in a raid (GO Illthia and Obbee) 3 Lw's in the group rocks aswell, drum cycles ftw. Would of been awesome if we had a critbear in group though. I agree with you in regards to Tommy the 4.7% miss really stands out, atleast compared to my 12.5%. Personally i wouldnt go with 210 hit, but looking forward to stealing expertise from some sunwell bosses.
#8274SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Originally Posted by Geims
Hi.
I love this forum and specially this t3d.

I'm Skyshaker and I have a question.

I use [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Dragonspine Trophy].

I just crafted [Alchemist's Stone] becouse I want to craft [Assassin's Alchemist Stone]...

Can you add those two trinket in section 3.5 with the EP?

It's [Alchemist's Stone] better than [Hourglass of the Unraveller]?
At the risk of possibly gaining myself an infraction for making a "useless post", may I be the first to say "Wow!"
#8275SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1diggidy
executioner

Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.
#8276SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Macar
Originally Posted by iconocclast
My guild is currently working on Achimonde in Hyjal and I have a question on whether or not to lose my 4 set T5 bonus for the new badge loot that is coming out. Right now the only piece of T5 I am missing is the chest off Kael so obviously that will be a buy asap. Just want to know if the lovely flurry bonus is worth not getting more pieces from badges prior to me getting more gear via the T6 content we are on now.
Try using Yo!'s simulator.

Edit: automatica beat me to it.
#8277SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Macar
Originally Posted by diggidy
Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.
Try using Yo!'s simulator.
#8278SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Scav
Question regarding EP values

Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

On the other hand, if no other raidbuffs(or debuffs) are included in your calculation, -Armor would be much better then written in the EP section because of debuffs like Sunder Armor, CoR, FearyFire. Can you help me here?

Thanks in advance
próno, EU-Kil'Jaeden

Last edited by Scav : 04/02/08 at 3:37 AM.
#8279SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1testthewest
Originally Posted by Scav
Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.

On the other hand, if no other raidbuffs(or debuffs) are included in your calculation, -Armor would be much better then written in the EP section because of debuffs like Sunder Armor, CoR, FearyFire. Can you help me here?

Thanks in advance
próno, EU-Kil'Jaeden

These ratings all compare stats to AP, which is defined to be 1. So if you suggest AP should be 1,1, you suggest AP should be 1,1 the value of......AP. Does this make sense for you?
#8280SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Exewut
Originally Posted by diggidy
Well I have 2 syphon of nathrezims and a rising tide and everyone says that the best way to go is to do executioner/ mongoose. Does anyone know which weapon is better to put executioner on and what hand i should put it in. I really cant figure out which is better.
It's not that hard if you use logic.

For Mongoose/executioner to be better than Mongoose/mongoose, executioner has to be better than mongoose, right?
Which means that you'll need to put executioner on the weapon which will cause it to proc most, which will be the slowest weapon.
#8281SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Scav
Reply to #8280:
Originally Posted by testthewest
These ratings all compare stats to AP, which is defined to be 1. So if you suggest AP should be 1,1, you suggest AP should be 1,1 the value of......AP. Does this make sense for you?
You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.
#8282SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Omniro
Originally Posted by Scav
Reply to #8280:


You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.
What he wanted to tell you with the 1AP=1.1AP was that you don't need to change any other EP values other than AP..
Say you use engame EP values as statet in the OP:

Strength = 2.2 EP
Agility = 1.69 EP
Crit Rating = 1.74 EP
Hit Rating = 1.69
Haste Rating = 1.82
Attack Power = 1
Armor Penetration = 0.35 EP
Expertise Rating = 3.18
You can leave everything as it is, but assign 1.1 points per AP. Not so hard realy

edit: Now it dawns on me that this would be very incomplete, just looking at Str which would also gain 10% and surely crit would benefit (for higher AP meaning crit influencing dmg more) and haste/hit/expertise-rating concering the "hitting-more-often" of a mob...
ah well. for me i'll stick to what stands there and just believe that because it basicly changes every stats value, it will balance out in the end (silly me...)

Last edited by Omniro : 04/02/08 at 5:12 AM.
#8283SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Raut
Originally Posted by Scav
Reply to #8280:


You're right, it makes not much sense to say that 1 AP is 1,1 AP. But what I'm trying to say is that most people (including myself) use the EP to decide about which item fits best in a Slot. What happens now is the following, you calculate the EP for 2 items and decide to wear item A (e.g. with high crit rating and -Armor) because it has the higher amount of EP, but the EP didn't consider that you have 10% bonus AP so actually in a raid Item B(e.g. with high Str/AP value) might be better.
It does. If AP becomes more valuable for you, it deflates other values. The actual numbers matters nothing, the ratio between them do. Since EP=AP, AP can never change from 1 EP.

This issue is discussed several times already.

Edit: Btw, AP can of course be bumped to 1.1 EP, but all it does is inflate all other EP values by 10%. I don't see the gain in doing this.
#8284SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Freyalis
Hi,
I got a question regarding EP values(T6):
Your EP values include the 10% bonus of Blessing of Kings, but what other raidbuffs are included in your calculation?
E.g. the 10% AP Bonus from Unleashed Rage is always up in a raid environment, wouldn't this make 2.42 EP for Strengh and 1.1 EP for AP?
This would make some "AP/Str" Items superior comparing to "Armor Penetration" Items, because -Armor ist not affected by Unleashed Rage.
Aswell as what other posters have said about the relationships between AP, STR and the others stats. Remember that these EP values are generated by a simulator that takes into account UR already before it gives you the EP values. So you dont need to take UR into account afterwards.

So if you have an item liek you say with high crit and ArPen with a higher value than a piece with more STR then use the higher EP item.
#8285SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Scav
Ok, thank you for your answers
#8286SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Kocmoc
Well, after a few words i just will copy/paste a post i made on our guildshaman forum.

A few infos... Finally we was at brutallus, where u first time ever in late t6 area, u got the chance to compare gear/dps. Simply as u wipe a lot, before that many claim the teronfight, but by oneshotting him u have chance to compare with 1 fight each week.

This said. I tested around with S3-axe, rising, Syph and i tested the different enchants in OH, so i started with mongoose on rising and later i enchanted it with exe (since its unique weap, u cant get 2 of it).

I also played around with, madness and Beserker. Since Madness-procc should make sense to stack up for better armourpene.

Needless to say, that we use any possible boost, ret pala, frenzy war, pots, damonelixir....u get it.

Nr1. S3-MH Mongoose / Syphon-OH Mongoose

It seems that the executioner effect is pretty low (at least on this boss with 8k Armour), so the extra mongoose procc gave more dps. Also the 0,2 slower weap in OH raise the chance on a WF in MH a lot. The difference is like 15-20% more WFs for MH.

Note: this is completly against any opinion Jerks post. They claim that it doesnt has effect, if u got a slower Oh.

With a war who got frenzy, i saw full potted mostly a DPS range around 1700-1900.
This i did with Madness trinket.

Note: Jerks consider "Berserker trinket" as better, i tested it a lot. For me it seems that i can spike a lot more with it, but since we did lack tries with 2x lust it is very hard to say if beserker will be better. Imo its around same. I can imagin, that in a killtry beserker would be better since id used it twice on lust.


Nr.2 S3-MH Mongoose / Syphon-OH Executioner

To make this count, i have to stack as much armour penetration as possible. So madness is a must. I have no time to check when the boff proccs are up same time, but exe is up pretty much and the madness procc is also proccing around 2 ppm.

I lack other armourpenetration pieces. Im sure i would scale a lot better, with 500-1000 more, but i couldnt get that yet.

I say, this combo is like 50-100 dps below the Nr.1.

Note: with frenzy and the meta (3% more critdamage) crit simply scale best. Im sure, that exe even with more armour penetration never can get up to mongoose, at least with a frenzy war in grp.

DPS is around 1600-1700.


Nr.3 S3-MH Mongoose / Rising-OH Mongoose

Well, not much to say. First day i had mongoose on rising, than i changed the enchant to executioner.

With 2x 2.6 weap u get a lot more "luck" DPS, so sometimes i saw me on 1800+ and than next try i could only make it to 1500.

In Average the DPS is slightly lower than the Nr.2, i say its around 1550-1650.


Nr.4 S3-MH Mongoose / Rising-OH Executioner

This is the worst combo by far.

I was like 1400-1550 DPS in most tries, like i said earlyer, a lucky try i had surely once 1700, but in average its crap.

We had around 40-50 tries, this is based on average DPS.

With frenzy war, the extra damage raised by mongoose-crit seems to scale better than executioner (Brutallus has 8k armour as far i know).

The Slow OH, raised my WF average damage always. I dont got a second S3 axe, coz lack of time and lazyness .
So its possible, that the S3 in OH would beat the Syph.

Trinkets, I switched Beserker with madness 50% of time (trophy is my other trinket), since u have to spike ur Blood fury - Beserker - hastepot + Lust to make it really scale, i have to admit that there was tries where i wasnt able to use lust at 2 min, simply as we did wipe before.

We use doublelust at timer of 2 and 4 mins, based by the CD`s of bloodfury/hastepot/rogue-CD`s.
If someone is interested i can look further in this and only compare tries where we at least got to the 4,5 min.

One thing i saw in initial post, why there isnt the 100death-belt mentioned, i still use it and for me its scaling best.
Especially as orc with already 5 expertice u go for 11 if u use axes, which gets u to 2,75%. At least till u get ur hands on the new t6 pieces, this belt seems best to me.

edit: I also would love to see "Damon Elixir" added, since in sunwell melee will mostly use this over flasks, at least on kill tries.

Koc

Last edited by Kocmoc : 04/02/08 at 7:23 AM.
#8287SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mox
Brtuallus has 8.8k armor (Atleast unless my mod lies) so that means armor penetration suffers from reduced DPS returns (think of the DPS curve, this much armor is on the steep part of curve so any move downwards has minor damage effect). From multiple sims I've done mongoose/mongoose has always out performed or equalled execution untill you get to <2k armor on a boss. With brutallus you're looking at 4.5-5k armor AFTER raid debuffs so it's pretty obvious that executioner isn't going to beat mongoose.
#8288SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
◊ Wraithlin
Originally Posted by Kocmoc
Hi Guys,
Ive made a post somewhere else and I think its so good Im going to make the same post here, with some quotes to divide the old stuff (awsome), from the new stuff (extra-awsome).

I decided to ignore the simulator and look at my recount even though our damage is very fluctuational, now I will make some baseless conclusions drawn from my tiny data set. Then Sebudai will come and post his meters showing him getting bigger numbers using the talent/gear/spec I just discredited.

to mak it xtra awsum I will also use lots of lol-abbreviations so u find it painful2 read.

Koc
Dont do this.

[e]
Damon Elixir probably isn't on Yo's simulator for the very good reason that it doesnt exist; Im sure the Damon population are releaved to hear this news.

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

It also says that executioner will only beat Mongoose when the Boss's effective armor is very low (i.e you have alot of passive armor reduction), so it should be obvious that executioner will be the inferior enchant on a high armor boss such as Brutallus.

Last edited by Wraithlin : 04/02/08 at 7:51 AM.
#8289SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Kocmoc
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
Dont do this.

[e]
Damon Elixir probably isn't on Yo's simulator for the very good reason that it doesnt exist; Im sure the Damon population are releaved to hear this news.

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.

It also says that executioner will only beat Mongoose when the Boss's effective armor is very low (i.e you have alot of passive armor reduction), so it should be obvious that executioner will be the inferior enchant on a high armor boss such as Brutallus.
Ignorance brings u nowhere.

Elixir of Demonslaying - no idea why u think it doesnt exists. Now if ur smart, and u act like ur, than u prolly can spent u time usefull and actual find out what this pot is doin, isntead to write some smart post like u just did.


Since there are hardly any fights where u really can compare on a long scale, apart from teron and brutallus, i thought its worth to post some of infos i could gather. Same with 100belt, the belt should get mentioned, since it scales best by far. Id loved to see some basic thought about ppm effected by drums (full sircle 80 haste) and hastepots (down CD 50 haste average).

alle the best and maybe u surprise people with another smart post


edit:

[ee]
Nowhere does it say speed isnt important, what you are probably referring to is the fact that if you have two weapons which are equivalent except for their speed then the MH/OH dps curve is symmetrycal (i.e 2.6/2.8 is the same as 2.8/2.6). Pretty much everywhere it says, use Yo!'s simulator if in doubt.
Well, maybe i didnt point it out too well, but exactly this i doubt. Months ago people did also claim that there is a downmove of DPS from 1,4 - 1,5, which obviously wasnt the case. I had the same discussions at those times as i already stated that i cant notice this "downgoin".

Now i also cant agree about what u said. U can use the simulator and u can run ur stuff many times as real testing.
I noticed a signifant difference, if i used a 2.8/2.6 combo compared with 2.6/2.8.
Problem (for me at least, who kinda trust real raid testing above simulators) is that not many fights are good to collect relevant infos.

Anyway, my damageoutput is higher with a 2.8 in OH, which is clearly shown in the WF averagedamageoutput.

Last edited by Kocmoc : 04/02/08 at 8:12 AM.
#8290SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Illundai
Originally Posted by Kocmoc
Ignorance brings u nowhere.

Elixir of Demonslaying - no idea why u think it doesnt exists. Now if ur smart, and u act like ur, than u prolly can spent u time usefull and actual find out what this pot is doin, isntead to write some smart post like u just did.


Since there are hardly any fights where u really can compare on a long scale, apart from teron and brutallus, i thought its worth to post some of infos i could gather. Same with 100belt, the belt should get mentioned, since it scales best by far. Id loved to see some basic thought about ppm effected by drums (full sircle 80 haste) and hastepots (down CD 50 haste average).

alle the best and maybe u surprise people with another smart post

You should look up what a damon is, then look at your previous post. Yeah, you'll figure it out. Anyhow, maybe you should look up what a simulator does. Then you'll know why your post is dumb.
#8291SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ forostie
In an effort to be constructive:

Kocmoc: You do raise some valid points, but you're conveying them terribly. If you want people to take your work seriously you should read the posting guidelines and use your head.

What Wrathlin said I have to agree with also, the extra crit from Mongoose will be better than Executioner in most cases unless you have quite a decent amount of -AP.
#8292SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
◊ Wraithlin
If you use a tool such as Loot Rank it would be obvious that the Vashj belt is best in slot, it is however a rare drop from a boss most people will kill once or twice ever, which is why it doesnt get much mention.

[e]
We use the simulator for a reason, that reason being it is impossible to gather statistically relevant data.
6 minutes is nothing, we can collect hours of data from the unkillable mobs in blasted lands, it still isnt statistically significant.

Last edited by Wraithlin : 04/02/08 at 8:26 AM.
#8293SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kletha
Originally Posted by Kocmoc
Now i also cant agree about what u said. U can use the simulator and u can run ur stuff many times as real testing.
I noticed a signifant difference, if i used a 2.8/2.6 combo compared with 2.6/2.8.
Problem (for me at least, who kinda trust real raid testing above simulators) is that not many fights are good to collect relevant infos.

Anyway, my damageoutput is higher with a 2.8 in OH, which is clearly shown in the WF averagedamageoutput.
First off, if you keep going like this (lol-chat-language) and "abusive"-talk toward other forum members you're gonna get banned. Both are frowned upon.

Also, the reasons the sim should be trusted over real-raid testing are quite many. Let me give you a few of them:

1. killing bosses (that are useful to test on) usually takes less than 10 mins. This is faar too little with the spiky dps we got. You'd have to do several 1000's of kills before you got a sample that's reliable enough.
2. the sim provides unlimited dps with no considerations. In a raid you have to consider so many things ranging from threat to lag to reaction time when hitting spells to having to possibly move due to other people etc etc etc.
3. the ways of gathering data in raids is fairly limited when compared to a sim where you can look at precisly what you want at what time you want.

When looking at raids there's always the "feeling" you get... A lot of people speak about this feeling but have nothing to back it up with. That's where the idea that being hasted between 1.4 and 1.5 speed would make a lot of difference in dps, something it didn't and several similar issues.
#8294SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1WantImages
Im realy upsett with the new fist set "Fists of Fury" that drop in MH. With the stats and the 1.5 off hand the set just don't work for us, right?

By the looks of the fists its just calling for shamans to use. Its 100% shaman t5 but still...

Is there any spec "new" (enhancement / elem) that can match our curent specs (enhancement / resto ---- enhancement) and make the fists more shamans'ish by letting us use them?

Enchanting the weapons,

(WF / FG, WF / RG, and not WF / WF)

If not, can everyone reading this thread help us (Melee shamans) and make Blizzard change the stats and speed on the first? Please!
#8295SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Rhaegal
Originally Posted by WantImages
Im realy upsett with the new fist set "Fists of Fury" that drop in MH. With the stats and the 1.5 off hand the set just don't work for us, right?

By the looks of the fists its just calling for shamans to use. Its 100% shaman t5 but still...

Is there any spec "new" (enhancement / elem) that can match our curent specs (enhancement / resto ---- enhancement) and make the fists more shamans'ish by letting us use them?

Enchanting the weapons,

(WF / FG, WF / RG, and not WF / WF)

If not, can everyone reading this thread help us (Melee shamans) and make Blizzard change the stats and speed on the first? Please!
I assume by FG and RG you mean FT (Flametongue) and RB (Rockbiter). Either way, the answer is 'no.' As should be very clear from the OP, there is never a situation where using a fast off-hand with any weapon imbue will compare to a slow OH and WF/WF.

An epic dagger with high dps (such as [Malchazeen] or [Guile of Khoraazi])and imbued with Flametongue can be used to temporarily replace a green or blue OH weapon. This comes at the cost of reduced Windfury procs, reduced Stormstrike damage, and a reduction in Flurry uptime. This should be seen as a stopgap measure only, not a weapon that you should commit to using for long periods of time.
In other words, yet another question that could have been answered by reading the OP and applying some logic.

[e] (That said, these weapons do suffer from a very bad case of The Dumb, and Blizzard really shouldn't have bothered. No one will ever use the off-hand, because it's terrible for us, and if a rogue is using a fist MH, they're generally using a sword OH. The only application I can imagine is an arms warrior picking it up for rage gen for execute spam, and even that's stretching it.)

Last edited by Rhaegal : 04/02/08 at 10:01 AM.
#8296SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rapparee
Originally Posted by Kocmoc
in initial post, why there isnt the 100death-belt mentioned
"Damon Elixir" added
Those are the only two things I found in your post.
This thread is for theorycrafting. The main intention is to teach everyone how to determine what gear is best for them. Listing gear and calling it best is not the same as teaching people how to come up with a formula. Malan had no choice but to list the best weapons, due to the sheer volume of people who simply post to ask what weapon is best.

Elixir of Demonslaying is in fact in Yo's simulator. It was there before you posted this. Go to the tab for "Buff & Debuffs", in the bottom left is a selector for what flask/elixir you want to be buffed with.


Finally, did you have any actual theorycrafting questions or perhaps something more than anecdotal data to present to the community? Posting that you did 1450 dps with one weapon, but 1600 with two different weapons is not meaningful. You neglected to inform us whether your survival hunter had crit streaks during the 1600 attempts, or that you wiped at 2mins every 1600 attempt, but wiped at 3.5 mins in the 1450 attempts. Also, I don't know about you, but DPS for me as enhance on brut was very streaky. If I was getting lucky crits, and we wiped at 4minutes.... most likely Brut was turning on the melee and killing me right after killing the fury warrior. Which makes my DPS look great.... I die right in the middle of doing great DPS.
If the wipes occured at enrage, I wasn't so fortunate. Normally at enrage, Brut was chasing down warlocks who hadn't soul shattered in a while. So I had to chase him to continue DPS... naturally my DPS dropped like a rock when Brut was able to outrun me for 20seconds out of 380seconds.
#8297SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nahela
Has anybody gotten any math down on the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]? I did a search but there was no concrete math done yet, just assumptions and guesses. Going to hit exalted quite soon, so I'm trying to figure out if it's worthwhile.
#8298SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
I assume by FG and RG you mean FT (Flametongue) and RB (Rockbiter). Either way, the answer is 'no.' As should be very clear from the OP, there is never a situation where using a fast off-hand with any weapon imbue will compare to a slow OH and WF/WF.

In other words, yet another question that could have been answered by reading the OP and applying some logic.

[e] (That said, these weapons do suffer from a very bad case of The Dumb, and Blizzard really shouldn't have bothered. No one will ever use the off-hand, because it's terrible for us, and if a rogue is using a fist MH, they're generally using a sword OH. The only application I can imagine is an arms warrior picking it up for rage gen for execute spam, and even that's stretching it.)
Normally, I'd say that would be the correct answer.

However, there's the set bonus to take into account (how often it procs, what the cooldown is if there is one at all, whether it is affected by magic/fire debuffs and spell damage). It will still probably be less damage than the SSO badge fists, but it would still be interesting to see how it compares in general.
#8299SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Nahela
Has anybody gotten any math down on the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]? I did a search but there was no concrete math done yet, just assumptions and guesses. Going to hit exalted quite soon, so I'm trying to figure out if it's worthwhile.
That's because it really depends on the proc rate. I don't think I've seen a definitive answer on that yet.

If the proc is about 1PPM...for Scryers it's about 400 damage every 60s, or roughly 27 EP at .25 DPS/EP. For Aldor, 1 PPM is ~ 33 EP.

Incidentally, the Scryer bonus on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] is sort of ridiculous. +100 Expertise Rating means that, when it procs, you'll be way OVER the expertise cap (it's a 6.25% reduction to dodge/parry, not counting the passive bonus). Either somebody at Blizzard is bad at math, or there's something about Expertise that we aren't getting.
#8300SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Kletha
Also, the reasons the sim should be trusted over real-raid testing are quite many. Let me give you a few of them:

1. killing bosses (that are useful to test on) usually takes less than 10 mins. This is faar too little with the spiky dps we got. You'd have to do several 1000's of kills before you got a sample that's reliable enough.
2. the sim provides unlimited dps with no considerations. In a raid you have to consider so many things ranging from threat to lag to reaction time when hitting spells to having to possibly move due to other people etc etc etc.
3. the ways of gathering data in raids is fairly limited when compared to a sim where you can look at precisly what you want at what time you want.

When looking at raids there's always the "feeling" you get... A lot of people speak about this feeling but have nothing to back it up with. That's where the idea that being hasted between 1.4 and 1.5 speed would make a lot of difference in dps, something it didn't and several similar issues.
That may be the worst thing I've read in this thread. The only reason we run sims or crunch numbers is to guide us for real raid scenarios. What you're saying is completely backwards.

Honestly sometimes all of this is just too ridiculous. Who cares what you'd expect to see if you stood there and beat on the same boss for 416 game days? Who is going to spend that much game time on one mob? Plus, how does that have any merit on what you actually observed in last week's raid? Just because you only killed each boss ONCE last week, doesn't automatically mean your numbers you actually observed from killing those bosses are wrong or irrelevant.

Let me put it this way, sample size is important for the government or insurance agencies. Sample size means exactly squat to us. If you want to know how you performed in last weeks raid, look at the numbers. Then if you still can't get your mind around it, assume that last week's raid was 100% of the population for the study on last week's raid.

Computer random number generators are not random. In theory you could flip a coin 10,000 times and end up with heads each time. In the computer you wouldn't because they programmed it to approximate what we expect to be random. Since there is no "random" in the random number generator, there really is no point to a random sampling of an extremely large population. The whole point of increasing the size of the population you're studying is to counter "random" to get as close to possible to "actual".

As far as feel goes, "feel" is just another word for experience. There is no random. Therefore a sample that's only 1 raid large is large enough to know what you need to know. It might not tell you everything you'd like to know about bosses that you have no idea of what their abilities and defenses are, but it will tell you everything you need to know about that specific raid.
#8301SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1frozndevl
I don't even know where to begin with regards to statistically relevant populations in regards to 1 raid being enough to base a conclusion. In short 1 boss fight can fluctuate extremely based on our melee mechanics, therefore relying on 1 boss to fight to create a conclusion is just bad math/modeling/stats/etc.

And as is quoted on a blog I frequent, results based analysis does not adequately predict future performance.
#8302SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
...
PRNGs do not work how you think they do. Statistics does not work how think it does.

Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
Incidentally, the Scryer bonus on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] is sort of ridiculous. +100 Expertise Rating means that, when it procs, you'll be way OVER the expertise cap (it's a 6.25% reduction to dodge/parry, not counting the passive bonus). Either somebody at Blizzard is bad at math, or there's something about Expertise that we aren't getting.
The obvious explaination to me is that they consider the parry reduction much more useful than we do, and even with the proc active it's hard to cap that. The dodge cap is pretty well confirmed, so I'm not sure what else it could be other than just a badly chosen stat for the effect.
#8303SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
As far as feel goes, "feel" is just another word for experience. There is no random. Therefore a sample that's only 1 raid large is large enough to know what you need to know. It might not tell you everything you'd like to know about bosses that you have no idea of what their abilities and defenses are, but it will tell you everything you need to know about that specific raid.
No, it doesn't. Reading through this thread, and through personal experience, you would notice that enhancement DPS can vary significantly on the same encounter on different nights, by the same shaman in the same gear pressing all the right buttons at the right times. Our DPS is much more prone to random factors than most other classes simply due to Windfury mechanics.

Yes, I say random factors. Do some research on how "random" numbers are generated in computing, and you'll know that your point is not valid. Random elements generated by programs are just as prone to streaks as real-life "random" situations like flipping a coin (assuming, of course, it's using a halfway decent algorithm, but that's a different story entirely--I like to hope that Blizzard's RNG is halfway decent).

The sim tells us what we can expect to see on average under ideal conditions (i.e., not running around chasing a boss, warlocks/druids not allowing CoR/FF to fall off on accident, not threat-limited, etc.). In other words, it tells us what our best potential DPS could be, averaging out good/bad luck streaks. That sort of information simply can't be produced in-game.
#8304SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by frozndevl
I don't even know where to begin with regards to statistically relevant populations in regards to 1 raid being enough to base a conclusion. In short 1 boss fight can fluctuate extremely based on our melee mechanics, therefore relying on 1 boss to fight to create a conclusion is just bad math/modeling/stats/etc.

And as is quoted on a blog I frequent, results based analysis does not adequately predict future performance.
I know where you can begin; you can start with the fact that the random number generator is not random. Then you can progress with the fact that you and everyone who has EVER played this game has never observed 2 boss fights that were substantially different when ALL ELSE WAS EQUAL. You can finish with the fact that real world math/modeling/stats/etc loose their value when you remove the "real world" from the equation.
#8305SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
I've been to Magister's Terrace three times in three days. Same gear and group each time.

One night I did 921 dps. Once, 814. And once, 791.

That's a deviation of 17%! That's why a single parse is irrelevant to theorycrafting. If I had to rely solely on parses to evaluate gear, specs and strategy, I could never do so reliably. As much as you seem to think there's some magic behind computer-generated randomness that makes it different from a roll of the dice (Stephen Wolfram would agree with you), the fact is that everybody has good nights and bad nights.

Furthermore, the equations we use to calculate things like "DPS" can be gamed through playstyle. For example, if I have to run out of melee range and stay there for longer than 3s, I'm going to shoot off a lightning bolt. Guess what? This means my DPS stats will actually be lower than if I hadn't done anything.

This is why we have formulas. This is why we have EP. This is why we have the simulator. And they all work very well.

The second you start trusting your "feelings" more than reason, you're resigning yourself to making poor choices. Such as making foolish statements like "everyone who has EVER played this game has never observed 2 boss fights that were substantially different when ALL ELSE WAS EQUAL." On the contrary; i don't think I've ever had two such fights where the results were the same.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 04/02/08 at 5:11 PM.
#8306SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
No, it doesn't. Reading through this thread, and through personal experience, you would notice that enhancement DPS can vary significantly on the same encounter on different nights, by the same shaman in the same gear pressing all the right buttons at the right times. Our DPS is much more prone to random factors than most other classes simply due to Windfury mechanics.

Yes, I say random factors. Do some research on how "random" numbers are generated in computing, and you'll know that your point is not valid. Random elements generated by programs are just as prone to streaks as real-life "random" situations like flipping a coin (assuming, of course, it's using a halfway decent algorithm, but that's a different story entirely--I like to hope that Blizzard's RNG is halfway decent).

The sim tells us what we can expect to see on average under ideal conditions (i.e., not running around chasing a boss, warlocks/druids not allowing CoR/FF to fall off on accident, not threat-limited, etc.). In other words, it tells us what our best potential DPS could be, averaging out good/bad luck streaks. That sort of information simply can't be produced in-game.
This is actually the biggest problem with this thread. It gets ahead of itself. If you saved every WWS and gear selection from every raid you've ever been on, you would have a 100% sample size of your performance. To then say that those numbers don't matter because you only went on 1 raid a week for 4 years = 208 raids instead of 10,000 raids (1 raid a week for 192 years) is just silly. Worse than silly, it just doesn't matter.

Listen, to take information obtained from a sim over actually information obtained in-game is nonsense. The sim does not kill bosses, your actually performance does. The fact that you might have to run around and your only dps, while you're moving will be shocks is important. It might not be important to tank and spank fights, but it's important to movement fights.

If you're after your average expected output under ideal conditions, you wouldn't use a sim; you’d use a spread sheet. It's a lot easier to calculate a 30% proc rate in a spread sheet than it is in a sim. This may come as a surprise, but a spread sheet will return 30% if you ask it to calculate a 30% proc rate.

A sim is trying to tell us what we'd actually expect to see in a raid. So then you guys take what you actually saw in the raid and say it means nothing because your sim said something different, as if the sim is going to magically post-hoc ankh those bosses you killed and undo everything you did.
#8307SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
Just looking for a few ideas as to after clicking "Theorycraft" is there a typical time that Yo!'s takes to complete?
#8308SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Monkeysnarf
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I've been to Magister's Terrace three times in three days. Same gear and group each time.

One night I did 921 dps. Once, 814. And once, 791.

That's a deviation of 17%! That's why a single parse is irrelevant to theorycrafting. If I had to rely solely on parses to evaluate gear, specs and strategy, I could never do so reliably. As much as you seem to think there's some magic behind computer-generated randomness that makes it different from a roll of the dice (Stephen Wolfram would agree with you), the fact is that everybody has good nights and bad nights.

Furthermore, the equations we use to calculate things like "DPS" can be gamed through playstyle. For example, if I have to run out of melee range and stay there for longer than 3s, I'm going to shoot off a lightning bolt. Guess what? This means my DPS stats will actually be lower than if I hadn't done anything.

This is why we have formulas. This is why we have EP. This is why we have the simulator. And they all work very well.

The second you start trusting your "feelings" more than reason, you're resigning yourself to making poor choices. Such as making foolish statements like "everyone who has EVER played this game has never observed 2 boss fights that were substantially different when ALL ELSE WAS EQUAL." On the contrary; i don't think I've ever had two such fights where the results were the same.
I bet if you posted those 3 WWS we could see exactly where YOU (party make up, buffs, other players, etc.) made the difference through play style and button mashing than where the random generator screwed you on 1 day and bless you on the other.
#8309SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by iconocclast
Just looking for a few ideas as to after clicking "Theorycraft" is there a typical time that Yo!'s takes to complete?
10k hours with stat weights enabled takes about 5 minutes on a 2 Ghz Pentium M for me.
#8310SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
[e] Nevermind, I'm stepping out of this argument.
#8311SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Kasi
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
This is actually the biggest problem with this thread. It gets ahead of itself. If you saved every WWS and gear selection from every raid you've ever been on, you would have a 100% sample size of your performance. To then say that those numbers don't matter because you only went on 1 raid a week for 4 years = 208 raids instead of 10,000 raids (1 raid a week for 192 years) is just silly. Worse than silly, it just doesn't matter.

Listen, to take information obtained from a sim over actually information obtained in-game is nonsense. The sim does not kill bosses, your actually performance does. The fact that you might have to run around and your only dps, while you're moving will be shocks is important. It might not be important to tank and spank fights, but it's important to movement fights.

If you're after your average expected output under ideal conditions, you wouldn't use a sim; you’d use a spread sheet. It's a lot easier to calculate a 30% proc rate in a spread sheet than it is in a sim. This may come as a surprise, but a spread sheet will return 30% if you ask it to calculate a 30% proc rate.

A sim is trying to tell us what we'd actually expect to see in a raid. So then you guys take what you actually saw in the raid and say it means nothing because your sim said something different, as if the sim is going to magically post-hoc ankh those bosses you killed and undo everything you did.
You seem to be missing something here. Of course there are things like AoEs, stuff like being slept on Anatheron, where the Gathios kiter moves him, other boss movements, being the victim of the RNG, having horrible luck on crits. None of these you have much control over. And the ones you do can never be explained through a simulator or TC anyway. I play mostly as elemental, but what explains that I do more dps than the mages in my raid? Because I do things to maximize my dps both pre battle and during battle. During battle is the things I listed above. Keeping uptime on bosses, not wasting time, minimizing movement, knowing when to redrop totems, knowing when to pop trinkets/cooldowns, knowing how to stay alive. None of this can ever be explained in a theorycrafting thread other than basics. (well the trinkets can, little else though no) For damn sure none of it can ever be measured and quantified.

What this thread is for though is the pre fight preparation. What buffs to use, what gear to use, group comp, enchants, gem choices. This is to ensure that before you go through all the random crap that deviates you from doing what you want (staying on a bosses ass never moving and doing your cycle perfectly as you can) your dps is as high as it can be. This thread deals with the pre fight work. To say that it doesn't matter is stupid.
#8312SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Joy
Having just done Brutallus for the first time yesterday it must be said that this fight is amazingly fun for melee.

I respeced an elemental subspec for the first time and had moderate results Wow Web Stats .

I was consistently able to sustain just under 2100 dps while twisting, on the kill I forgot to repot after my elixir of demonslaying wore off so lost a bit of DPS there. I had never been ele before so wasn't sure about whether to keep a 1;1 rotation so ended up doing 1;2 letting Flameshock get it's last tick. I also ran oom for about 10s because JoW was knocked off and not reapplied.

There were a few times my rotation fell apart because I was leading the raid and had to move groups or type something out. 3 drummers in the group and about every buff imaginable bar world buffs.

With a Mounting Vengeance and a SoC I think I could comfortably get around 2120 dps.

Anyway as I said I loved this fight and will look forward to it every week.


Edit -sorry linked a wws that didn't include pets. Wow Web Stats should be correct.

Last edited by Joy : 04/02/08 at 6:04 PM.
#8313SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1philomon
Originally Posted by Malan
If you want to argue that the coefficients for Flame Shock are wrong on wowwiki etc, than we can explore that. If you are arguing that my math is wrong with the assumption that the coefficients are right, you're incorrect. I did it both ways (split the DD and the DoT and added the dmg together vs doing them in one calc) just to be sure and they both came out the same.
I'll make a case for differing coeffecients in a subsequent post with a little more rigor (thankfully there's very little variance to account for =D) and various levels of +dmg to verify everything. I linked to the article to display older findings, but then posted personal findings that differered. The point of either number set was to point out that a correction was needed in flame shock's 6 sec dps.

But using the numbers from wowwiki (15 and 52), the 6 sec dps of flame shock is once again:

(((377 + (750 * .15) + (.5(420 + (750 * .52))) / 6 ) * 1.36 =
((489.5 + 405) / 6 ) * 1.36 = 202.75 dps

(not 246.9, and now less than earth shock in terms of 6 second output)

With a split coeffecient, the instant portion of the damage is devalued and the dot is meatier, rather than your current inception that results in the instant portion doing a lot more than it should, thus skewing the 6 second output.
#8314SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Yakout
[e] Deleted. No good reason to waste thread space trying to clarify basic principles of statistics or clear up misconceptions regarding the fundamental nature of PRNGs.

Last edited by Yakout : 04/02/08 at 10:12 PM.
#8315SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
Streaks are not "non-random". Not seeing streaks in small sample sizes incredibly frequently would be non-random.

Barring data corruption PRNGs are technically deterministic, but I don't think it's any coincidence that every person I've ever seen point out that PRNGs are not random has demonstrated a complete lack of understanding of how PRNGs work. In WoW's case, (++i % 100) would probably be indistinguishable from a real RNG in most cases. The timing data from user input is considered random for the same reason that rolling a die is considered random, and WoW's combat system is full of that. With a real PRNG like IBAA combined with that random data the result is nearly identical to a quantum RNG.
#8316SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
I can't believe I'm taking a bite on a total troll cookie, but here goes...

Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf
This is actually the biggest problem with this thread. It gets ahead of itself. If you saved every WWS and gear selection from every raid you've ever been on, you would have a 100% sample size of your performance. To then say that those numbers don't matter because you only went on 1 raid a week for 4 years = 208 raids instead of 10,000 raids (1 raid a week for 192 years) is just silly. Worse than silly, it just doesn't matter.
Wrong. It's not a 100% sample size of your performance. It's a 100% sample size of your past performance. Hey, if you flip a coin 3 times and it's heads every time, are you going to tell me that real life experiences mean that you should expect heads 100% of the time for the next 3000 flips? No, of course not, because you're smarter than that.

Also, it's just plain ignorant to say "well it's all in the wws, so you can account for all the variables". We would get no where if the only way to predict dps was by running regression analyses with the variables of all the movements, party makeup, consumable uses, etc etc. A sim is a way to look at your own dps, ceteris paribus.

Listen, to take information obtained from a sim over actually information obtained in-game is nonsense. The sim does not kill bosses, your actually performance does. The fact that you might have to run around and your only dps, while you're moving will be shocks is important. It might not be important to tank and spank fights, but it's important to movement fights.
True, the sim can't kill things for you, but it can tell you what the optimal gearing is for a controlled situation, and we have taken it as a given that the best gear for a tank 'n spank is often going to be the best gear for most fights. If you're basing objections on the fact that sometimes we're not able to do our job, then that's your prerogative, but I personally would find it silly to discount all the rogue theory crafting based on the fact that I would shoot my bow for a lot of the time on Baron Gheddon.

If you're after your average expected output under ideal conditions, you wouldn't use a sim; you’d use a spread sheet. It's a lot easier to calculate a 30% proc rate in a spread sheet than it is in a sim. This may come as a surprise, but a spread sheet will return 30% if you ask it to calculate a 30% proc rate.
If you don't realize why the majority of people here are laughing at the naivety contained in the paragraph quoted above, then you obviously don't understand shaman issues. With a nod to Tornhoof, who has done an excellent job, the sims don't have to worry about being good approximations, they can simply be the best that we have available.

A sim is trying to tell us what we'd actually expect to see in a raid. So then you guys take what you actually saw in the raid and say it means nothing because your sim said something different, as if the sim is going to magically post-hoc ankh those bosses you killed and undo everything you did.
See my first example with the coin flips. If I get really high dps 3 raids in a row, should I expect it in the fourth? Maybe I was lucky and didn't get ported? Maybe it was good group composition? Maybe I had extra consumables? Maybe it was my stormstrike timing? Maybe it was a nice string of crits? Maybe it was a combination of all the above?

The sim takes all of the variance that is possible out of the equation so that you don't have to spend quite literally hours of time scrutinizing every aspect of a WWS parse, combined with frame-by-frame Fraps, in order to achieve the same result.

Sorry to the rest of you for prolonging this garbage of a sub-thread.
#8317SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vellius
Originally Posted by Shalas
PRNGs do not work how you think they do. Statistics does not work how think it does.


The obvious explaination to me is that they consider the parry reduction much more useful than we do, and even with the proc active it's hard to cap that. The dodge cap is pretty well confirmed, so I'm not sure what else it could be other than just a badly chosen stat for the effect.

I... would imagine that the far more obvious explanation is that it's intended for tanks, given the 48 stamina and complete lack of pure DPS stats; hit and expertise have a definite place for threat sets, after all.

Also, I guess, there's the fact that the Scryer proc is +100 dodge, which couldn't even begin to be construed as a DPS proc.
#8318SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lethnon
good day everyone!

I have a simple question today. Does anyone know of an addon that will let you know of the cataclysm 2 piece bonus proc? I realize it isn't all that, but hey, an instant heal is an instant heal, might as well take advantage of it. I haven't had any luck on WoWAce or Curse.

Thanks in advance!
#8319SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
Originally Posted by Macar
Try using Yo!'s simulator.

Edit: automatica beat me to it.
Originally Posted by Lethnon
good day everyone!

I have a simple question today. Does anyone know of an addon that will let you know of the cataclysm 2 piece bonus proc? I realize it isn't all that, but hey, an instant heal is an instant heal, might as well take advantage of it. I haven't had any luck on WoWAce or Curse.

Thanks in advance!

Enhancer
#8320SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Mengus
Originally Posted by Vellius
I... would imagine that the far more obvious explanation is that it's intended for tanks, given the 48 stamina and complete lack of pure DPS stats; hit and expertise have a definite place for threat sets, after all.

Also, I guess, there's the fact that the Scryer proc is +100 dodge, which couldn't even begin to be construed as a DPS proc.
I'm scryer, and it proced a 100 Exp Rating proc for me... I use it in PVP, where it can come in handy... I'm not thinking of using it for DPS, but since pvp gear doesn't have expertise, it's STA and static Expertise along with the proc makes it worth consideration.

Last edited by Mengus : 04/03/08 at 2:23 AM.
#8321SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
Originally Posted by Lethnon
good day everyone!

I have a simple question today. Does anyone know of an addon that will let you know of the cataclysm 2 piece bonus proc? I realize it isn't all that, but hey, an instant heal is an instant heal, might as well take advantage of it. I haven't had any luck on WoWAce or Curse.

Thanks in advance!
Just a little remainder that the instant heal will reset swing timer.

Expertise is very powerful tanking stat for threat and avoiding parry burst. Since parry is a lot higher than dodge then it also has much more room before cases to be useful for tanks.
#8322SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1kronchev
Originally Posted by Monkeysnarf

Let me put it this way, sample size is important for the government or insurance agencies. Sample size means exactly squat to us. If you want to know how you performed in last weeks raid, look at the numbers. Then if you still can't get your mind around it, assume that last week's raid was 100% of the population for the study on last week's raid.
Are we setting out on the Failboat now? I suppose so, because this is pretty much a terrible statement.

What exactly makes other numbers somehow "more" or "less" prone to spikes in data collected? Nothing, at all. You are ignoring the fact that the whole point of accurate sims is that they minimize the things in the post you quoted. The reason we need a huge sample size, much bigger than anyones total raiding time, is to minimize these spikes. If you start saying "well our own collected performance is 'good enough'", then you pretty much have shot theorycrafting in the foot.
#8323SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1vorda
Originally Posted by Mengus
I'm scryer, and it proced a 100 Exp Rating proc for me... I use it in PVP, where it can come in handy... I'm not thinking of using it for DPS, but since pvp gear doesn't have expertise, it's STA and static Expertise along with the proc makes it worth consideration.
He meant 'aldor' instead of scryer.
#8324SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Vellius
Quite, was my mistake. Wasn't paying good attention. Still, though.
#8325SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Theorycraft Think Tank is now live, the Enhancement Article can be found here - http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20765-enhancement_shaman/

Please note that the Wiki is not a place to argue about things, ask questions about the sim, or ask dumb questions about "wut geer do i use", it is a repository of information. Discussion in the Wiki should only deal with making corrections or adding new information to the wiki. For discussion about something that you think is wrong or needs to be looked at further, make a thread or post out here in the normal forums.

Also, the article still has some of the errors that I've recently corrected in this thread, I have to copy the changes over so give me a few days before you start whining.
#8326SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1ragga
Thanks for the update Malan.
#8327SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Atren
Read it through, nice work

Anyways, little correction to Managing your threat part -- as Retribution paladins now have talent for 30% thread reduction to all (opposed to our physical only) i doubt the part referring to them in there anymore is true.

EDIT: Clarified my sentence.

Last edited by Atren : 04/03/08 at 8:25 AM.
#8328SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
You can post corrections directly to the wiki article.
I'm checking to see whats desired, but we might end up closing this thread (archiving it) and then any discussion on "what weapon is best" etc etc would need to start a new thread.
#8329SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sintor
Not to be daft but is there a directory or perhaps a listing of some sample Yo! simulator runs for people of appropriate t6 gear levels? We are working on Brutallus and as such I am trying to make sure that my personal contribution is up to snuff, and I want to compare it to some of you who have been in on kills. I realize I can go look at WWS for the "actual" versus the "theoretical" but I am trying to make sure that the gear is there before I worry about the group-stack and method.

Thanks a bunch.
#8330SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
2.4 wDPS ep.

I have calculated these values from Yo's sim using 15shock/2minute.
I used 2*2.6 weapons.

Mh wDPS ep: 7.4
Oh wDPS ep: 3.6


These numbers slighly scale with gear -+ 1%.

Wiki version say:

Weapon DPS EP Values
Pitbuller and Rob have shown that it is possible to convert weapon DPS into EP values. This is useful to compute the total EP of a weapon in order to compare two weapons, as seen in this post (link to where you or someone compared Netherbane to MG Cleaver). The following values are only valid for a 2.6 speed weapon. EP would need to be recalculated for any other speeds. These are presented here because 2.6 is the most common speed for weapons.

1 MH DPS = 9.03 EP
1 OH DPS = 3.70 EP



Wich numbers you wanna use there? Or do someone retest this math with sim?
#8331SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Audrix
Comment and Question

Comment:

On section 3.1.1 Using EP - Examples for the [Valestalker Girdle] you are using (T5) EP Values would it not be more appropiate to use the High Raid (T6) EP Values since the item drops in T6 instance.

Question:

I understand that [Claw of Molten Fury] is a set and we might as shamans find it quite insulting since the OH is of 1.50 speed which no ehn. shaman will use and probaly will never whish to obtain until everyone that wishes the item has it. According to my calculation its a 982.8 AEP doesn't this make the item desireable if all luck to get a [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] has been lost?

Last edited by Audrix : 04/03/08 at 7:34 PM.
#8332SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Sintor
Originally Posted by Audrix
Coment and Question

Coment:

On section 3.1.1 Using EP - Examples for the [Valestalker Girdle] you are using (T5) EP Values would it not be more appropiate to use the High Raid (T6) EP Values since the item drops in T6 instance.

Question:

I understand that [Claw of Molten Fury] is a set and we might as shamans find it quite insulting since the OH is of 1.50 which no ehn. shaman will use and probaly will never whish to obtain until everyone that wishes the item has it. According to my calculation its a 982.8 AEP doesn't this make the item desireable if all luck to get a [Rising Tide] or [Syphon of the Nathrezim] has been lost?
In Yo!'s sim, [Claw of Molten Fury] with [Syphon of the Nathrezim] came out to better dps for me than the Tide/Syphon combo. I believe the claw is on the list of "Second only to season 3", but it just didn't make the OP as it was undiscovered trash loot until right before 2.4.
#8333SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kaladian
Originally Posted by Joy
Having just done Brutallus for the first time yesterday it must be said that this fight is amazingly fun for melee.

I respeced an elemental subspec for the first time and had moderate results Wow Web Stats .

I was consistently able to sustain just under 2100 dps while twisting, on the kill I forgot to repot after my elixir of demonslaying wore off so lost a bit of DPS there. I had never been ele before so wasn't sure about whether to keep a 1;1 rotation so ended up doing 1;2 letting Flameshock get it's last tick. I also ran oom for about 10s because JoW was knocked off and not reapplied.

There were a few times my rotation fell apart because I was leading the raid and had to move groups or type something out. 3 drummers in the group and about every buff imaginable bar world buffs.

With a Mounting Vengeance and a SoC I think I could comfortably get around 2120 dps.

Anyway as I said I loved this fight and will look forward to it every week.


Edit -sorry linked a wws that didn't include pets. Wow Web Stats should be correct.

Joy thanks for the post, that is great information for shaman working on Brut. I just wished you would have logged out in your enhancement gear instead of healing =). 2100 dps is very impressive.
#8334SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Aksing
I am currently working on Brutallus myself, and am pushing for that 2k barrier.

I have always noticed when simulating how the more of a stat you have the less EP it usually gives. Ofc there are obvious exceptions, but you see where i'm going here. It's usually the stats you have less of that offer the biggest EP gain. That said, on Brutallus when you have every buff available, and are having drums of battle chained on you all the time, i was wondering whether anyone has found Insane Strength Pots to offer up more dps boost than a haste pot?

Or whether the haste would still offer the biggest dps gain, even with Bloodlust, and drums etc.

Was pushing 1900 dps last time without a ret pally or arms warrior. Going in with them next time so really hoping to see that 2k mark reached.
#8335SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Audrix
Coment and Question

Coment:

On section 3.1.1 Using EP - Examples for the [Valestalker Girdle] you are using (T5) EP Values would it not be more appropiate to use the High Raid (T6) EP Values since the item drops in T6 instance.
This is precisely the type of comment that should have been a reply to the wiki, not here.
#8336SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ogniac
New badge loot

I've been considering this for along time.

Now when patch 2.4 has been realesed and the new badge loot comes you can now buy the fist weps:
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
And:
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

I currently have Gladiator's Cleaver in main hand and Boggspine Knuckles in offhand (Wich is kinda sucks).

So my question is, should i buy the fist weps or should i spend them on armor gear like chest and legs. And i've heard from friends that buying the fist weps will decrease my dps since the haste screws up the WF mechanics. But wouldn't the white swings make up for my Wf procs?

Yeah, overall the weps are an upgrade. Just alittle confused about the haste.
#8337SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
Originally Posted by Aksing
I am currently working on Brutallus myself, and am pushing for that 2k barrier.

I have always noticed when simulating how the more of a stat you have the less EP it usually gives. Ofc there are obvious exceptions, but you see where i'm going here. It's usually the stats you have less of that offer the biggest EP gain. That said, on Brutallus when you have every buff available, and are having drums of battle chained on you all the time, i was wondering whether anyone has found Insane Strength Pots to offer up more dps boost than a haste pot?

Or whether the haste would still offer the biggest dps gain, even with Bloodlust, and drums etc.

Was pushing 1900 dps last time without a ret pally or arms warrior. Going in with them next time so really hoping to see that 2k mark reached.

Do you have a WWS parse showing around 1900 and what is your group setup? How many BL and drums do you have? Our gear is not a lot different and I have been trying everything I know (3 drums, 3 haste pots, 2 bloodlusts) and I can't seem to get over 1700.

Haste pots seemed to be better for me. I use bloodlust for my group off the start, then 45seconds later I hit haste pot/berserking then just use everything as the cooldown comes up.
#8338SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yinn
EP for Shattered Sun Pendant of Might?

Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
#8339SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1automatica
Originally Posted by Ogniac
I've been considering this for along time.

Now when patch 2.4 has been realesed and the new badge loot comes you can now buy the fist weps:
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
And:
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

I currently have Gladiator's Cleaver in main hand and Boggspine Knuckles in offhand (Wich is kinda sucks).

So my question is, should i buy the fist weps or should i spend them on armor gear like chest and legs. And i've heard from friends that buying the fist weps will decrease my dps since the haste screws up the WF mechanics. But wouldn't the white swings make up for my Wf procs?

Yeah, overall the weps are an upgrade. Just alittle confused about the haste.
/broken record

Use the simulator linked in the OP. Run 3 sims.

Current Gear
Gear with 2.4 badge fists
Gear with 2.4 armor pieces

Compare results and figure out what will give the biggest bang for the buck immediately.

Also, refer to the OP in regards to haste.
#8340SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Killme888
Originally Posted by Totalitar
Do you have a WWS parse showing around 1900 and what is your group setup? How many BL and drums do you have? Our gear is not a lot different and I have been trying everything I know (3 drums, 3 haste pots, 2 bloodlusts) and I can't seem to get over 1700.

Haste pots seemed to be better for me. I use bloodlust for my group off the start, then 45seconds later I hit haste pot/berserking then just use everything as the cooldown comes up.
Your spec confuses me, no Call of Flame, one of the main reason to spec elemental. Elemental Focus...? That's even worse than Elemental Devastation. Elemental Warding also helps tons with burns for Brutallis, with SR and Elemental Warding I think the final ticks were doing about 1k per tick instead of 1.5k.
#8341SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daler
Originally Posted by Yinn
Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
Just to clarify, you can reach the expertise cap for melee DPS prior to the new sunwell gear.

[Shoulderpads of the Stranger]
[Gloves of the Searing Grip]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Shard of Contempt]
[Shapeshifter's Signet]

Grand total is 117 expertise rating, 14 over the presumed cap for alliance/non-orc shaman (or orcs not wielding axes).
#8342SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nahela
Anybody know if Enhancer is broken at the moment? I can't get any of the menu commands to work and anytime I drop a totem I get a massive error. Fresh install of the latest build.
#8343SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
Originally Posted by Killme888
Your spec confuses me, no Call of Flame, one of the main reason to spec elemental. Elemental Focus...? That's even worse than Elemental Devastation. Elemental Warding also helps tons with burns for Brutallis, with SR and Elemental Warding I think the final ticks were doing about 1k per tick instead of 1.5k.
I was trying to sava mana last night because our ret paladin was not on but I still wanted to be able to do 2 shocks per twist. In the end it didn't help much anyways to have 5/5 convection. Usually I have concussion/warding/CoF/reverb.
#8344SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Yinn
Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
Maybe I'm missing something, but why would it matter if you're at the expertise cap for this item? Because the Aldor proc is AP, its EP value won't change depending on the rest of your gear. The Scryer proc is direct elemental damage, and I'm not sure yet whether it can be dodged (more likely it's subject to resists), and if so, whether its dodge chance can be modified by your expertise.
#8345SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
I think a lot of people are confusing [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might].

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] = Aldor: +100 dodge, Scryer: +100 expertise.
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] = Aldor: +200atk, Scryer: ~400 arcane dmg proc.
#8346SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mezzeric
Originally Posted by Wundorn
After this post there was a bit of discussion about theridge in the graph for equal-speed weapons. They appear inferior, but then someone asked if the sim took into account the benefit match-speed weapons had from both being haste for the final (third) hit in flurry. Yo said that the sim did not account for that. I did not see any further discussion about this on the following few pages.

Did further work show that the third-flurry-hit benefit outweighs the loss shown in the sim, for DWing identical-speed weapons?
This is something I have been wondering myself, and I havent been able to find any other posts that adress the issue with a solid answer. Is the extra attack under flurry (and subsequently the extra flurry uptime) enough to remove the dps lost to the extra offhand WF procs? Or is the one extra attack trivial and the loss from WF too substantial?
#8347SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1actiQ
WF timer is not working in Enhancer.
#8348SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by actiQ
WF timer is not working in Enhancer.
It hasn't worked since 2.4 came out. There are a few other mods that will show the WF cooldown though. Actually, Enhancer is broken completely it seems atm. Time to find another one!
#8349SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1drastic
Can someone help me understand why the slowest possible MH weap is the best? If we are trying to get as many MH WF procs as possible, wouldn't a "fastest" MH and "slowest" OH be the best dps combo? I just don't get why you want the slowest of both... thx for any input
#8350SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Sebudai
I was running some simulations today with Yo's! simulator and I was getting some weird EP values for haste rating. Based off of my current gear it was averaging out at 0.44 EP, which seems really low. The last time I ran the simulator haste was coming in at an EP value of 2.0, and the only thing that has changed for me since then is I picked up a Shard of Contempt and T6 bracers.

Was this already mentioned? I searched the thread but didn't see anything.
#8351SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
First I've heard it mentioned.
#8352SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mox
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I was running some simulations today with Yo's! simulator and I was getting some weird EP values for haste rating. Based off of my current gear it was averaging out at 0.44 EP, which seems really low. The last time I ran the simulator haste was coming in at an EP value of 2.0, and the only thing that has changed for me since then is I picked up a Shard of Contempt and T6 bracers.

Was this already mentioned? I searched the thread but didn't see anything.
Been running sims today and was getting normal 1.9ish values for haste. Are you sure you didn't enter a strange value for haste %? Maybe missed a decimal or something.

o you have a WWS parse showing around 1900 and what is your group setup? How many BL and drums do you have? Our gear is not a lot different and I have been trying everything I know (3 drums, 3 haste pots, 2 bloodlusts) and I can't seem to get over 1700.
I've been gettng easily over 1800 DPS on brut, occasionally breaking 2k DPS with a full twist + 2 shocks cycle. Call of flame is pretty nice damage buff, was getting 115 DPS from searing totem alone. Will upload some WWS tomorrow, had ret pally + MS warrior in group.
#8353SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Audrix
Originally Posted by Malan
This is precisely the type of comment that should have been a reply to the wiki, not here.
It had a typo so maybe a good thing I didn't :P Plus its new thread and I wasn't comfortable posting there yet.
#8354SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by drastic
Can someone help me understand why the slowest possible MH weap is the best? If we are trying to get as many MH WF procs as possible, wouldn't a "fastest" MH and "slowest" OH be the best dps combo? I just don't get why you want the slowest of both... thx for any input
Because our damage isn't normalized.

Damage per hit is calculated by taking the DPS of a weapon and dividing that by the weapon's base speed. Faster weapons do less damage per hit, proportional to their swing time.

damage per hit = weapon dps * weapon spd.

When an attack is normalized, a weapon that hits half as often hits twice as hard to balance it out. Thus, our autoattack damage is normalized.

AA dps = damage per hit / weapon spd

However, Stormstrike ALWAYS hits at the same rate -- once every ten seconds. A faster weapon doesn't hit more often, and as a result can never recoup the damage lost by being faster.

SS dps = damage per hit / 10s.

Windfury is also not normalized. True, you will proc WF a bit more often with a faster weapon, but you can never proc it more than once every three seconds. Thus, there's a hard limit to the increase in the number of hits over time.

WF dps = 2x damage per hit / (3s + <some lag, shortened by weapon speed>)

Getting a faster mainhand would help get a few more mainhand procs, but you'll be losing damage on both WF and SS and if you simulate it you'll notice that the effect of increased MH procs doesn't offset the effect of lost damage due to our un-normalized attacks.

Your main hand weapon will naturally proc a bit more than your offhand, because the mainhand is always evaluated first after a Stormstrike.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 04/03/08 at 7:47 PM.
#8355SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Sebudai
Originally Posted by Mox
Been running sims today and was getting normal 1.9ish values for haste. Are you sure you didn't enter a strange value for haste %? Maybe missed a decimal or something.
Yeah, I still have the window with my values open and I've checked every tab multiple times now. I've input 3.93% haste.

Also, I'm getting really low values for expertise rating, which I assume is because I've gained a bunch of expertise lately. However, it seems weird that the value would drop so dramatically. I'm not capped yet, and it seems like the last few points should at least be in the same realm of value as the first few. Pre-Shard of Contempt/T6 bracers my EP value for expertise was 3.18. Now it's coming in at 0.77.
#8356SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Quaunaut
A new version of Enhancer was just released, but as far as I can tell, it does nothing, and the AEP setting on it is gone as well, though he says in the "News" part that has now split into another mod(which the URL to doesn't work).

Heres to hoping its back soon 'nuf.
#8357SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yo!
Originally Posted by Saliik
It seems just because the sim is hitting the cap, I shouldn't lower the value of each point until I hit the cap.
+ Changed step used for calculating EP value of expertise from 10 expertise (2.5% dodge reduction) to 1% dodge reduction (hit, crit, haste all use 1% steps) and even lower if approaching expertise cup (but be aware of reduced stability of EP value for expertise in such case)
#8358SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Voss
Aye, I downloaded it and promptly lost all of my totem timers as well. =(
#8359SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Wraithlin
I was getting the pposite sebudai, really high values (like 1.9 for crit, 1.8 for haste).
#8360SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Yinn
Has anyone found a definitive answer on the proc rate for:

Shattered Sun Pendant of Might - [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

I'd be curious as to the differences in EP values between Aldor and Scryer, assuming basic tier 6 (BT/MH aka sub-expertise cap) gear levels.
First, a link to a useful post: http://elitistjerks.com/699120-post122.html

The conclusion tunah came to about [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] was that it has a 45 sec internal cooldown, with a 15% proc rate. More importantly, that thread has a link to the library he wrote to take as input data from the new combat log, and output the information we're looking for.

Anyway, my shaman is currently sitting in Dire Maul whacking one of the spirits there, and will be until morning. I'll see what I can do about either running that on my log or making a buddy of mine (who is significantly more well versed than I) do so. Worst case, I'll PM the author and see if he can run it real quick on my data, since he's already been doing work on one of the necks.
#8361SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I confess I'm a bit intimidated by over 300 pages of posts. If I'm repeating, I apologize. That said, I recently got a Breeching Comet drop on my alt shammy. I'm planning to get the badge fists of brutality when my server builds the anvil, so I was crunching some numbers on a cheap temporary enchant for my new axe. I didn't find any EP values for enchantments in a brief skim of this thread, so I ran the numbers myself, and then got a bit carried away:

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 25.9   25.9   25.9  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 63.2   63.2   63.2  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
#8362SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mengus
Originally Posted by Jessamy
t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 25.9   25.9   25.9  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 63.2   63.2   63.2  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime

Interesting finding on Striking on MH... With Potency, did you add kings for the t6 ep? (2.2 for str there as opposed to 2 for the other two?
#8363SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
25.9   25.9   25.9  striking oh +7 dmg oh
63.2   63.2   63.2  striking mh +7 dmg mh
Not quite. WDPS is kinda tricky. +7dmg is not +7wdps its +7damage / speed

7 / 2.6 = 2.7wdps
2.7 * 9.03 = 24.3ep

Also + damage enchants dont suffer OH penalty so strinking for oh is bad as its for mh.
#8364SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Originally Posted by Jessamy
t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str

Originally Posted by Mengus
Interesting finding on Striking on MH... With Potency, did you add kings for the t6 ep? (2.2 for str there as opposed to 2 for the other two?
I lolled
#8365SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1iconocclast
Originally Posted by drastic
Can someone help me understand why the slowest possible MH weap is the best? If we are trying to get as many MH WF procs as possible, wouldn't a "fastest" MH and "slowest" OH be the best dps combo? I just don't get why you want the slowest of both... thx for any input

you want every possible swing to have teh chance to WF and it has a 3 sec vd. read the first post or dont post again imo.
#8366SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Audrix
Originally Posted by Quaunaut
A new version of Enhancer was just released, but as far as I can tell, it does nothing, and the AEP setting on it is gone as well, though he says in the "News" part that has now split into another mod(which the URL to doesn't work).

Heres to hoping its back soon 'nuf.
EquivalencePoints can be downloaded at World of Warcraft Addons - WowAce.com or using WowAceUpdater

Hope it helps

The defualt values from the high level Enh Shammy set are kinda wierd maybe it might be better to import your personal values. Haven't had a chance to really tweak and test it to be honest.
#8367SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kint
I apologize in advance for the newb question, and I have already used the search thread feature but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I always just took Sebudai's t6 EP values as my own when planning out what gear I wanted, but lately have been more interested in messing around with Yo's a bit myself, sooooo...

When you input your MH and OH dps you just do the actual weapon DPS, not the value calculated after Haste and AP correct? It's what I have been doing so far, and the numbers seem in line with what I expect, just want to make sure I'm not doing it wrong.
#8368SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Joy
Originally Posted by Kint
I apologize in advance for the newb question, and I have already used the search thread feature but couldn't find what I was looking for.

I always just took Sebudai's t6 EP values as my own when planning out what gear I wanted, but lately have been more interested in messing around with Yo's a bit myself, sooooo...

When you input your MH and OH dps you just do the actual weapon DPS, not the value calculated after Haste and AP correct? It's what I have been doing so far, and the numbers seem in line with what I expect, just want to make sure I'm not doing it wrong.
Aye standard weapon speed. Haste and Flurry are added elsewhere (Flurry is enabled by default).
#8369SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
Aw dang I knew it was too good to be true. Even with my bad numbers it still wasn't good enough anyway. Here's my spreadsheet with corrected numbers:

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 10.0   10.0   10.0  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
This puts striking back down into the realm of not worth mentioning (as the OP rightly didn't). I still find it fun to have hard numbers for the rest of the choices.
#8370SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Slightly more Re: [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

WWS of "Arcane Strike" ability from last night's quick required-bosses-in-Kara run: Wow Web Stats (ignore the wipes... we were running with 2 healers, both of which are alts of people who'd never healed a raid before... I never thought I'd have to explain to someone that they can drag raid frames from the fault UI out onto their screen...)

90 total hits of Arcane Strike, 30 crits = based on melee crit rate. Crits for 2x, but since the max non-crit is 404 and the max crit is 831, I suspect that it's affected by [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. Will know for sure after messing around with my combat log from last night's Dire Maul marathon.

Amusingly, I had zero dodges or resists, but it was parried twice on trash, implying that it's subject to parry/dodge mechanics instead of resists, which is consistent with its crit mechanics. However, it is, interestingly enough, subject to partial resists, which I saw 9 of last night.

Dire Maul data pending, doubt I'll have any more info until I can parse it tomorrow.
#8371SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Originally Posted by Jessamy
Aw dang I knew it was too good to be true. Even with my bad numbers it still wasn't good enough anyway. Here's my spreadsheet with corrected numbers:

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 10.0   10.0   10.0  striking oh +7 dmg oh
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking mh +7 dmg mh
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
This puts striking back down into the realm of not worth mentioning (as the OP rightly didn't). I still find it fun to have hard numbers for the rest of the choices.
Still wrong Oh strinking value.
"Also + damage enchants dont suffer OH penalty so strinking for oh is bad as its for mh."
#8372SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
Hopefully I can stop being wrong and go back to learning.

t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking    +7 dmg
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 54.0   54.0   59.4  crusader    60 str, 45% uptime
 83.2  105.8  132.3  executioner 840 armor pen, 45% uptime
112.0  118.1  116.9  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 45% uptime
#8373SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolflord
I just picked up the [Fist of Molten Fury] to complete the set for looks. We had a fun little jaunt into TK for shoulders and I decided to try it out (unenchanted). Testing was just to see if the set bonus proc was worth the 100 or so dps loss of switching to a fast/flametongue offhand. It isnt. It procs often enough, but the damage is miniscule, worked out as under 1% of my damage. Still running the instance, so no WWS yet, but can post later if anyone is interested.
#8374SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Roonie
Hi all

Is there any reason why [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] is no longer listed as a reccomended MH weapon?

I see the offhand is still stated as a good choice on the updated front page. - Is this an oversight or is there more to it?


Cheers.

R
#8375SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Haven't gotten around to it, I'm in the middle of a busy period at work, my wedding is in 22 days, and I'm still trying to raid.
#8376SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Fola
Originally Posted by Wolflord
I just picked up the [Fist of Molten Fury] to complete the set for looks. We had a fun little jaunt into TK for shoulders and I decided to try it out (unenchanted). Testing was just to see if the set bonus proc was worth the 100 or so dps loss of switching to a fast/flametongue offhand. It isnt. It procs often enough, but the damage is miniscule, worked out as under 1% of my damage. Still running the instance, so no WWS yet, but can post later if anyone is interested.
I would be interested to see the WWS just for fun, I picked up the MH the other day in Hyjal mostly for looks. Just in case they fix the speed of the OH I am curious to know what the proc is like. What does the animation look like when it procs? Does the proc just look life a Fiery Weapon Enchant animation or something different?
#8377SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Aksing
So i've been searching for a temporary replacement to enhancer whilst it gets fixed.

I did download the equivalent points addon from wowace, and it's not displaying properly on in game items.
Not like it used to anyway.

All that i've found so far is some totem timer addons like gotwood, and wf3 for wf cooldown bars.

If anyone else has any to recommend please do.

And if anyone has an eta on enhancer actually working that would be great.
#8378SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1automatica
Originally Posted by Malan
my wedding is in 22 days
Congratulations. =)
#8379SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Jessamy
Hopefully I can stop being wrong and go back to learning.
Being wrong is a big part of learning.

Your numbers look OK -- well, actually they look high, I though Mongoose et al had an average uptime of around 35%. However, I have a concern about Crusader -- a few (dozen) pages back, somebody mentioned a theory that while BC enchants adjust their proc rate according to your current weapon speed, "Vanilla WoW" enchants, such as Crusader, have a constant proc rate based on the weapon's unhasted speed. Meaning that any haste buffs will, essentially, add more chances to proc and should increase the uptime as a result.

Confirmation on this would be nice, since most shamans' average weapon speed is much faster than at rest.

Last edited by Toots Hepcat : 04/04/08 at 1:16 PM.
#8380SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolflord
Originally Posted by Fola
I would be interested to see the WWS just for fun, I picked up the MH the other day in Hyjal mostly for looks. Just in case they fix the speed of the OH I am curious to know what the proc is like. What does the animation look like when it procs? Does the proc just look life a Fiery Weapon Enchant animation or something different?
Heres the WWS: Bjeoran - WWS
Its probably misleading however. Youll notice we took a scraps raid into TK so i was only self buffed. As all other damage scales with buffs Id expect the proc to be worth less than 1%. The WWS dosnt cover trash, though it was exactly 1% of my dmg for trash too. (Off topic: it must be noted watching the ranged get annihilated by the 'new' VR was excellent).

I didnt notice the graphic on the proc (SCT was not prepared for so many numbers) so I beat on some mobs outside Shatt. Just a nice boring explosion on proc:


The only true use Ive found for the offhand fist is to wear with 8pieces of t5 graphicced armour and just strut around Shatt, and it does excel at that. If they ever did 'fix' the speed it would make an excellent offhand, but I wouldnt hold my breath.
#8381SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1frozndevl
Originally Posted by Aksing
So i've been searching for a temporary replacement to enhancer whilst it gets fixed.

I did download the equivalent points addon from wowace, and it's not displaying properly on in game items.
Not like it used to anyway.

All that i've found so far is some totem timer addons like gotwood, and wf3 for wf cooldown bars.

If anyone else has any to recommend please do.

And if anyone has an eta on enhancer actually working that would be great.
I've been using gotwood for the totem timers and Disqodice for my windfury, stormstrike, water shield, and twisting bars.

DisqoDice | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse
#8382SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I'm not sure how I got my 45% uptime for Crusader -- apparently some flawed late night arithmetic. I found
Chance on hit (%) = weapon speed * 1.82
(source)

WoWWiki has a slightly different number
% to Proc = Weapon Speed * 1.667
(source)

So depending on which number is more authoritative, either 1.1 ppm or 1.0 ppm. Either way, more like 25% uptime than 45%.

For Mongoose and Executioner, I saw "40-45%" in Keiji's original post, looked at my calculated uptime for Crusader of almost exactly 45%, and made a brash assumption that I had discovered a Blizzard standard.

My numbers are looking less and less hard -- but oh well I put Mongoose on my Breeching Comet anyway.
#8383SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Yo's sim gives me a Mongoose and Executioner uptime of ~36% MH and 31% OH. I get the same for Crusader, and all three seem to scale up with haste, implying that the model does not match the theory (myth?) I referenced above.

Is that calculated uptime for single or dual Crusader? And do you have a Mongoose parse to compare it to?
#8384SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
People have demonstrated elsewhere that the simulator is more accurate than spreadsheets. I therefore shall assume your 36% number is more accurate than my numbers.

I'm not sure I understand your question regarding Mongoose. Perhaps this touches on that subject?
Although the supposed proc rate is approximately the same as Crusader (1 ppm), this enchant can proc multiple times in a row even on 2h weapons. It does not appear to have a hidden cooldown. The proc is most likely normalized to 1ppm, but not strictly bound to it.
(source)

My calculations have all been for single-wield. Since everything except Executioner stacks, I was considering the MH & OH EP values separately in my table. The buff will have more total uptime, but I the uptime benefit from the individual enchant is separated. This fails when Executioner is enchanted on both MH & OH. The buff will have more uptime than from a single enchant, but the added benefit from the second weapon is much less. The math gets harder to demonstrate, but I conjecture that the reduced benefit means Executioner-Mongoose is the high-end best combination.

Anyway, here are some new numbers for my table:
t4 ep  t5 ep  t6 ep
 24.3   24.3   24.3  striking    +7 dmg
 34.8   36.0   33.8  greater agi 20 agi
 40.0   40.0   44.0  potency     20 str
 43.2   43.2   47.5  crusader    60 str, 36% uptime
 66.5   84.7  105.8  executioner 840 armor pen, 36% uptime
 89.6   94.5   95.7  mongoose    120 agi, 2% haste (31.4 haste rating), 36% uptime
#8385SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Roonie
Originally Posted by Malan
Haven't gotten around to it, I'm in the middle of a busy period at work, my wedding is in 22 days, and I'm still trying to raid.
Congrats
#8386SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Piestein
Originally Posted by Malan
Haven't gotten around to it, I'm in the middle of a busy period at work, my wedding is in 22 days, and I'm still trying to raid.
Congratulations.

Now on topic, so that I don't get a warning. Jessamy suggests Executioner EP bigger then Mongoose for t6 equivalence, but I believe that should be only in case that you have t6 ArP gear: I will run some tests to see if my assumption is correct, but I believe it is so- it was stated somewhere in the previous pages, but I just can't remember which one exactly. It is also possible that those stats are highly dependant on the current boss fight: Brutallus has high armor like stated above, some other bosses however- just normal armor. This is just a mere suggestion though, since the time I am posting at and the fact that you probably spend a lot more time than me for calculating. But still, if every boss has different armor, would Executioner demanding a more "special environment" influent on the importance of the enchant?
#8387SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lujaar
Originally Posted by Rhaegal
Slightly more Re: [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]

90 total hits of Arcane Strike, 30 crits = based on melee crit rate. Crits for 2x, but since the max non-crit is 404 and the max crit is 831, I suspect that it's affected by [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. Will know for sure after messing around with my combat log from last night's Dire Maul marathon.

Amusingly, I had zero dodges or resists, but it was parried twice on trash, implying that it's subject to parry/dodge mechanics instead of resists, which is consistent with its crit mechanics. However, it is, interestingly enough, subject to partial resists, which I saw 9 of last night.
Did a few sessions in the blasted lands while waiting for someone to log on and give me something to do, and I'm seeing about the same thing. Seems to be based on melee crit rate, hits for a little under 400 on average.

Proc rate seems to be a little under 1.5 PPM in actual play (taking into WF and SS and its internal cooldown and whatever else).

Damage doesn't seem to scale with any stat other than crit. I was landing 400-ish arcane strikes naked and meleeing with my healing mace.
#8388SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Oprahwinfury
Does anyone know how big DPS increase we get from [Flame Cap], using the standard FS/ES rotation and having Searing Totem up?
#8389SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Fire spell damage portion is 7dps when used. One minute effect and three minute cooldown. So +2.33dps. Do someone know what is proc rate?
#8390SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Wrathblood
A quick follow-up on the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might. Got one last night and did a few minutes of testing on various elites around Skettis and Terokkar to check the proc rate.

With a 1.6 speed weapon single-wielded I had 7 procs in exactly 7 minutes of fighting which included 216 regular melee hits/crits/blocks (can't recall if there were any glancing blows or not). 1 proc was parried.

With a 3.6 speed 2h weapon, I had 7 procs in 8:10 encompassing 146 regular melee hits/crits/blocks.

Its a small data sample, but suggests that the 15% proc rate and 45 second hidden cooldown of the other Shattered Sun neck proc applies to this one as well. IMO, this results in 5-7 dps depending on weapon speed and arguably makes it comparable to the Vindicator neck.

Last edited by Wrathblood : 04/05/08 at 6:01 PM.
#8391SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Devnex
Has there been any headway made into the 5.6 versus 6.5% dodge discussion? Last I'd heard Rhaegal was collecting WWS's. Any updates?
#8392SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
From WoW Forums -> 2.4 Known Issues list

The Arcane Strike proc from Shattered Sun Pendant of Might is breaking crowd control effects such as Scatter Shot.
It is possible to dodge, block, and parry the proc Arcane Strike from the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might

Since it is known bug list i guess it will soon no longer be dodged, blocked or parried. Since it already can be partially resisted according to someone i guess it somehow atm suffers both spell and melee effects. I hope it stays on melee crit as while it has not been mentioned there, would not be suprised if it was a side effect of whatever wrong there as well.
#8393SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Oprahwinfury
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Fire spell damage portion is 7dps when used. One minute effect and three minute cooldown. So +2.33dps. Do someone know what is proc rate?
I could try and figure it out if someone would tell me how to do so
#8394SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1falonub
Running the sim, it says I should be getting 10-15 more DPS using Shard/Berserker's Call compared to Shard/DST. Using 1.92 as my EP for haste, I'm confused because DST(196 AEP) comes out ahead of Berserker's Call(150). So wouldn't that result in this proof(A = Shard, B = DST, C = Berserker's Call): A > C, B > C then A + B > A + C; but that disagrees with what the sim is telling me after repeated runs. Is this because AP is better for WF & melee than the haste proc just for auto attacking?
#8395SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1qualia
Originally Posted by falonub
Running the sim, it says I should be getting 10-15 more DPS using Shard/Berserker's Call compared to Shard/DST. Using 1.92 as my EP for haste, I'm confused because DST(196 AEP) comes out ahead of Berserker's Call(150). So wouldn't that result in this proof(A = Shard, B = DST, C = Berserker's Call): A > C, B > C then A + B > A + C; but that disagrees with what the sim is telling me after repeated runs. Is this because AP is better for WF & melee than the haste proc just for auto attacking?
I've been wondering that abit myself too. Does the sim assume that we pop all CDs at once? If so, that could perhaps explain the decrease in dps.

To explain,
The more CDs you have, the greater you can 'stack' them together. While I am not sure about the exact math, off the hand thinking seems to justify this.

Consider that if I am doing 1000 damage per 2 seconds. Over one minute, my DPS would be 500DPS.
Now if I had a trinket which decreases my swing timer to 1 second for 20 seconds, my resulting DPS would be 667DPS.
Similarly, if I had a trinket which increases my damage per swing to 2000 for 20 seconds, my resulting DPS would be 667DPS.
Now, if I were using both trinkets (but only one after the other), then my resulting DPS would be 833DPS.
Finally, if I were using BOTH trinkets together at the same time, my resulting DPS would be 1000DPS.

From these considerations, I believe that even though both DST and Shard might be INDIVIDUALLY better than Berserker's Call. The fact that you can 'stack' Berserker's Call with your other CDs might (requesting real maths pls!) provide it with the crucial edge over using the Shard + DST combo.
#8396SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
h4rr0d
Has anyone done research for [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for Aldors (as in AEP value of the proc)?

Last edited by h4rr0d : 04/07/08 at 5:55 AM.
#8397SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
200ep * (10s / (45s cd + 5s time to proc)) = 40ep
#8398SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1wanieczki
I have a simple question. Are you all totem twsiting on whole fights? Or You simple dont twist.
#8399SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bellante
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I was running some simulations today with Yo's! simulator and I was getting some weird EP values for haste rating. Based off of my current gear it was averaging out at 0.44 EP, which seems really low. The last time I ran the simulator haste was coming in at an EP value of 2.0, and the only thing that has changed for me since then is I picked up a Shard of Contempt and T6 bracers.

Was this already mentioned? I searched the thread but didn't see anything.
I've been seeing some instability in my own EP, haste seems to be going up as I get more expertise, which makes sense, but I've also seen some really unstable hit rating EP's, which worries me. Calculations were running during raids, didn't notice any wrongly entered inputs, but I'm a bit worried that there's something in the sim's handling of expertise that isn't making sense. Given that no-one has reported anything except Sebudai and me, I'm guessing that the error is on my end, but I'll get back to you once I have some more solid data.
#8400SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Sebudai
I discovered why my haste rating EP was dropping so low. With my settings, and various common procs(like DST), I was spiking to roughly 1.51 speed and thus demolishing the value of additional haste(since dipping into the 1.41-1.49 range is not so great.) Unselecting the Haste Potion option seemed to fix this as my EP value for haste went from 0.44 back up to 2.01. I use Haste Potions, but the way the simulator models them can be misleading since they're not actually a static 50 haste rating.
#8401SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nemaa
Originally Posted by wanieczki
I have a simple question. Are you all totem twsiting on whole fights? Or You simple dont twist.
I have a simple answer for this question: no.

This 1.41-1.49 weapon speed range should not cause such drastic change of haste values. Isn't it possible that this is some kind of bug in the simulator? There is no real ingame confirmation for this "damage loss" at 1.41-1.49 weapon speed range, as far as I know.
#8402SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Nemaa
This 1.41-1.49 weapon speed range should not cause such drastic change of haste values. Isn't it possible that this is some kind of bug in the simulator? There is no real ingame confirmation for this "damage loss" at 1.41-1.49 weapon speed range, as far as I know.
Sebudai said exactly what the bug is in his post -- the sim is modeling haste potions as a passive 50 haste, which is very different from 400 haste one eighth of the time. It's still not reporting a damage loss (or the value of haste would be negative), just a drastically reduced value.
#8403SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nemaa
Either it's a passive 50 or a 400 haste for 15 sec every 2 minutes, it shouldn't cause such a drastic change in the AP value of haste rating.
#8404SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lumb
Hi again, I have another probably annoying and obvious question.. but here goes. On the sim, what does "OH expertise" and "MH expertise" actually mean? As far as I was aware, expertise was just a static value and had nothing to do with weapons? I must be missing something.
#8405SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nemaa
Originally Posted by Lumb
Hi again, I have another probably annoying and obvious question.. but here goes. On the sim, what does "OH expertise" and "MH expertise" actually mean? As far as I was aware, expertise was just a static value and had nothing to do with weapons? I must be missing something.
If you are an Orc and you use one axe instead of two, these input values might be useful.
#8406SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Lumb
Originally Posted by Nemaa
If you are an Orc and you use one axe instead of two, these input values might be useful.
Oh, i see. So for me (being a tauren) as long as I put in the expertise value in either OH or MH, it wont make a difference?
#8407SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Lumb
Oh, i see. So for me (being a tauren) as long as I put in the expertise value in either OH or MH, it wont make a difference?
You'll want to put the same value in for both. Since you don't have to worry about a racial, whatever your character sheet expertise value is should go into both fields, not just one.
#8408SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I discovered why my haste rating EP was dropping so low. With my settings, and various common procs(like DST), I was spiking to roughly 1.51 speed and thus demolishing the value of additional haste(since dipping into the 1.41-1.49 range is not so great.) Unselecting the Haste Potion option seemed to fix this as my EP value for haste went from 0.44 back up to 2.01. I use Haste Potions, but the way the simulator models them can be misleading since they're not actually a static 50 haste rating.
I'm a troll with Dragonstrike; I regularly dip below 1s and have never had this trouble.

'Course, the real problem isn't liable to be dips, but median swing speed -- the speed you spend the most time at. If yours was around 1.51...and the sim is looking for 1% increases, as Yo has mentioned...it would take more HR to hit that point, giving you a bit of a false reading. The median wouldn't need to be AT 1.51...so long as it was close, and you crossed the threshhold when looking for an increase, you could see strange behavior.

Just because adding haste rating is always good doesn't mean it's good at a constant rate. So what weapon speeds, haste percent, procs, imbues and crit rate were you using?
#8409SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
You guys are really missing the forest for the trees of what Sebudai said.
#8410SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1NihilX
Tonight I decided to log only boss fights and wear a full-expertise setup:

[Gloves of the Searing Grip] +18 expertise rating
[Shoulderpads of the Stranger] +10 expertise rating
[Shard of Contempt] +44 expertise rating
[Shapeshifter's Signet] +20 expertise rating
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] +18 expertise rating
Total: 110 expertise rating. Usable expertise rating: 108 as in 26 raw expertise or 6.75% chance to not being dodged/parried.

My hit table was as follows:
Melee swings: 1211 landed 0 dodged 8 parried
Windfury hits: 505 landed 0 dodged 1 parried
Stormstrike hits: 192 landed 0 dodged 1 parried

The parse covered two encounters: Teron Gorefiend (1-shot) and Gurtogg Bloodboil (5 tries + death).
The parries were from when I had the Bloodboil tanking debuff, so I was facing the boss, as well as a random parry or two when the bosses switched.

Differential was made with yesterday's Archimonde parse, where with 92 expertise rating I had 18 dodged melee hits in a similar number of swings, hence could safetly conclude the Expertise cap for Dodge is not 90 (5.6%) but in fact higher, so could safetly conclude that Wowwiki is wrong (not really much of a surprise there).

My conclusions:
1. - Dodges are totally taken out of the hit table at 94+ rating (5.75% and upwards). 6.75% aka 108 expertise is enough to cap it for sure. My best bet would be 100 expertise rating (6%, aka 25 expertise).
2. - Parry has a different expertise cap higher than 108. This would explain the use of the Scryer version of the above-used Neck piece, which gives you +100 expertise rating for 10 seconds (I recall someone was wondering a few pages back why it overcapped you).
#8411SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
◊ Kasi
Edit: Nm, found it out with some personal testing.

Last edited by Kasi : 04/07/08 at 8:56 PM.
#8412SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Nice work thanks. Would you please repost that in the wiki for posterity?
#8413SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Shild
Is there any plan to make WF3sec available in the US, and if not
I've tried enhancer and that WFCD doesn't seem to be working, what are some other reliable bar WFCD addons?
#8414SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
alucardv
sorry i got confused by lootzor site
lootzor.com - World of Warcraft search and rate items - profile your wow character

every blue gem was socketed with +8 agility, didn't notice it said (Test soulbound gem)

Last edited by alucardv : 04/08/08 at 1:11 AM.
#8415SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
Originally Posted by alucardv
Hi, I have a question about blue gem socket, you recommanded [Sovereign Nightseye] +4str +6stam for a blue socket which has a 4str x2 = 8 EP, but alternativly there is the +8 agi gem which fits blue socket that gives more EP (8agix1.8=14.4EP). why do you suggest [Sovereign Nightseye]?
Is not +8 agi Red gem? Like this [Delicate Living Ruby]
#8416SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1h4rr0d
Originally Posted by Shild
Is there any plan to make WF3sec available in the US, and if not
I've tried enhancer and that WFCD doesn't seem to be working, what are some other reliable bar WFCD addons?
DisqoDice | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse isn't working in the US neither? Because this addon is 100% fixed and working in ENGB version of the client.
#8417SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1mesh
hi all,

i have a question about enhancer.

Since patch 2.4 was released there is no longer an AEP configuration menu for me. I already downloaded EquivalencePoints, but i can't find an according option.

It's a bug isn't it?

mesh
#8418SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Bellante
Originally Posted by Sebudai
I discovered why my haste rating EP was dropping so low. With my settings, and various common procs(like DST), I was spiking to roughly 1.51 speed and thus demolishing the value of additional haste(since dipping into the 1.41-1.49 range is not so great.) Unselecting the Haste Potion option seemed to fix this as my EP value for haste went from 0.44 back up to 2.01. I use Haste Potions, but the way the simulator models them can be misleading since they're not actually a static 50 haste rating.
Ah yes, I've always been unselecting the haste pot for EP calculation, was figuring that 50 extra haste would scew the results somehow. I didn't actually ever test if it was so, however.

Ah well, still haven't figured out what's wrong with my own EP's

EDIT: Ok, the results of having gained Expertise is that my haste EP has gone up, which I guess makes sense, more hits going in, haste is better. The thing that had me a bit confused was that hit went up in EP value also, but I guess that also makes sense, since when haste gets better, it needs more hit too, since white damage goes up. Haste, and as a result, hit, does seem to vary about 0.1 in EP value though, which is a bit much for my liking (10000 hours sim per run), but I guess there's not much to do about that than run longer or more sims. Anyone else seeing such instability in their EP's, or am I just being overcautious?.

Last edited by Bellante : 04/08/08 at 8:34 AM.
#8419SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daer
Originally Posted by mesh
hi all,

i have a question about enhancer.

Since patch 2.4 was released there is no longer an AEP configuration menu for me. I already downloaded EquivalencePoints, but i can't find an according option.

It's a bug isn't it?

mesh
/equivalencepoints config

I hope the author will inform us when the new Enchancer will be available.
#8420SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Fearlezz
It is available, just misses A LOT of options
#8421SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
Originally Posted by Bellante
Ah yes, I've always been unselecting the haste pot for EP calculation, was figuring that 50 extra haste would scew the results somehow. I didn't actually ever test if it was so, however.

Ah well, still haven't figured out what's wrong with my own EP's

EDIT: Ok, the results of having gained Expertise is that my haste EP has gone up, which I guess makes sense, more hits going in, haste is better. The thing that had me a bit confused was that hit went up in EP value also, but I guess that also makes sense, since when haste gets better, it needs more hit too, since white damage goes up. Haste, and as a result, hit, does seem to vary about 0.1 in EP value though, which is a bit much for my liking (10000 hours sim per run), but I guess there's not much to do about that than run longer or more sims. Anyone else seeing such instability in their EP's, or am I just being overcautious?.
Expertise increasing hit does not actually make sense. Maybe it was just one extreeme of spectrum of values for hit. Expertise converts dodges into hits as far as i know, hit has nothing to do with it. Perhaps i am missing something here, but i doubt.

EDIT:

Oh, on what expense did you gain expertise? If you swapped hit to expertise then it would make sense for hit to be more worth.
#8422SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bellante
Well, my thesis is that Expertise = more yellow and white hits = haste is good, but as haste gets more attractive, it's also affecting white damage = hit goes up (a bit). I've done some more sims, it's definately gone up, but not as significantly as I first observed.
#8423SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
NihilX
I will add the expertise findings to the wiki, however I want to test again, with +100 usable expertise rating this time.
If I get a single dodge in any ammount of hits, then the limit is either 104 or 108 (I know for sure it's capped at 108 already, however I don't know if it's lower)
If i don't get a dodged attack on a relevant number of swings/wf procs/SS' then it means it caps at either 96 or 100 (I know for sure it's not capped at 92).

Unfortunately, missing Vashj's belt as well as Sunwell tier parts, I am unable to verify for 96 and 104 respectively, so I can only get as close as these two possible intervals.

These would be the gear setups pre-Sunwell that would give these two results:
10 (shoulders) + 20 (ring) + 44 (shard) + 25 (belt) = 99 ER = 96 usable ER.
10 (shoulders) + 44 (shard) + 18 (gloves/rep neck) + 25 (belt) = 107 ER = 104 usable ER.

The possible setups I can get now are either 92 (tested already) or 100 (using some other shoulders instead of [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] ).

Another setup I can get to would be 113 ER (112 usable ER) with [Brooch of Deftness] however I do have other badge priorities at the moment and very little time on my hand for grinding. The result would go to proving Parry ER limits only, anyway.

Last edited by NihilX : 04/08/08 at 12:46 PM. Reason: Item links
#8424SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Right EP values with haste pots.

Run sim with no haste pots selected. Write down ep values.
Run sim with passive 400haste rating. Write down ep values.

Multiple first ep values with 7/8.
Multiple last ep values with 1/8.

Sum ep values.
#8425SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Vissi
Originally Posted by NihilX
I will add the expertise findings to the wiki, however I want to test again, with +100 usable expertise rating this time.
If I get a single dodge in any ammount of hits, then the limit is either 104 or 108 (I know for sure it's capped at 108 already, however I don't know if it's lower)
If i don't get a dodged attack on a relevant number of swings/wf procs/SS' then it means it caps at either 96 or 100 (I know for sure it's not capped at 92).

Unfortunately, missing Vashj's belt as well as Sunwell tier parts, I am unable to verify for 96 and 104 respectively, so I can only get as close as these two possible intervals.

These would be the gear setups pre-Sunwell that would give these two results:
10 (shoulders) + 20 (ring) + 44 (shard) + 25 (belt) = 99 ER = 96 usable ER.
10 (shoulders) + 44 (shard) + 18 (gloves/rep neck) + 25 (belt) = 107 ER = 104 usable ER.

The possible setups I can get now are either 92 (tested already) or 100 (using some other shoulders instead of [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] ).

Another setup I can get to would be 113 ER (112 usable ER) with [Brooch of Deftness] however I do have other badge priorities at the moment and very little time on my hand for grinding. The result would go to proving Parry ER limits only, anyway.

I can test 96 now (Belt + Gloves + Shoulder + Shard = 97, 96 usable) and 104 (Belt + Gloves + Signet + Shard = 107, 104 usable). What is the best way to test it?
#8426SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Find a raid boss and whack on it with some friends, come back with a combat log.
#8427SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1drumbum
The rogue theorycrafters on these forums have come up with a 6.5% dodge rate on bosses (i.e. 103 expertise rating or 26 expertise), although I'm not sure where that originally was tested. You can see this is mentioned in the Roguecraft 101 thread. If your tests can either confirm or refute this, I'm sure we'd be glad to hear about your results.

If you're looking for reasonable test points, you should probably try 25 (6.25%) and 26 (6.5%) expertise.
#8428SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1NihilX
Test 96 please, I've just tested 100 and I've got 0 dodges out of 187 swings, 96 windfury procs and 36 SS.

I know it's not a really relevant sample, however we bloody 1-shotted RoS, and as Mother is next I cannot test further tonight.

But as a focus strategy, get 96 tested first I think.
#8429SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Vissi
I will test 96 tonight. I looked through a couple of last weeks WWS parses added everything up and realized I was using different gear for Najentus, Terron and Bloodboil.

Akama was a really short test sample but here it is w/96:

Physical hits: 27 hits 2 parry 0 dodge
WindFury Hits: 9 hits 0 Parry 0 Dodge
Stormestrike hits: 6 hits 0 Parry 0 Dodge
#8430SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
100 = 25 Expertise = 6.25% reduction (NihilX shows no dodges)
96 = 24 Expertise = 6% reduction (Vissi shows no dodges)

This would refute those rogues' numbers, albeit with a small sample set. Still, I see no point in testing MORE than 100 for purposes of finding the dodge limit.

I'd like to see a parse with 22 Expertise (87-90 ER) and another with 21 Expertise (83-86 ER). If the number is 5.5%, we should see no dodges with 22, and few dodges with 21.

Shard + Belt + Ring = 89 (22 Expertise)

I don't think there are any combos for exactly 21 Expertise, but
gloves + rep neck + ring + belt = 81 (20 Experise)
#8431SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1NihilX
As stated in my first post, I knew 92 would not be sufficient to cap expertise, as I had a previous parse clearly proving it.

Parse with 92 ER showed:

617 melee swings: 19 dodges 9 parries
291 WF procs: 1 dodge 1 parry
146 SS: 1 dodge 0 parry

Akama was indeed a very short test, we need a span of over 500 hits to have something concludent.
Remember that if you get only 1 dodge in no matter how many hits is sufficient to get the conclusion wanted - which is the cap limit.

From there we can use a higher number of parses with different expertise values (20, 21, 22...25,26 etc) and plot it nicely to check where an optimal balance would be, as not all items are good enough for regular use and would prove overall detrimental to gimp our stats for a 1-2% gap.
#8432SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Kahdrick
This thread will soon be closed. All the information has been moved to the Theorycraft Think Tank at Shaman: Enhancement.

Please update your links and note that the wiki is not to be used for questions/discussion. Post only corrections or change requests there. Discussion and questions ("guys should I use double syphon???") should go in a relevant thread here in the forums.
So at the risk of sounding like a complete moron, if discussion about theorycrafting is not to be done at the wiki page, and this thread (the theorycrafting thread) is about to be closed, does that mean that we are no longer permitted to discuss theorycrafting? I would assume not, but I don't see another thread that relates to the topic. Is a replacement thread going to be made when this is closed? Or should someone take it upon themselves?

-------------------

Also, Malan, I posted a correction in the wiki that was deleted (presumably because I did it in more of a "discussion" manner): The Skyguard Silver Cross is a pretty decent trinket (68 AEP not even counting the proc for an additional 120 AP after killing something - I figure it to be 128 AEP (50% uptime based on internal 1 min cooldown and 30s proc duration) for fights with numerous adds and 68 AEP on boss-only fights. In either case, it is certainly superior to some of the other listed trinkets (Romul's Poison Vial, for example). Since this is such an easy trinket to get, I think it would help out new enhance shammies to have its value expressly dictated to them.

(edit: I accidentally pointed the second comment at the wrong person originally... sorry!)

Last edited by Kahdrick : 04/08/08 at 7:11 PM. Reason: Whoops, wrong name!
#8433SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Originally Posted by Kahdrick
So at the risk of sounding like a complete moron, if discussion about theorycrafting is not to be done at the wiki page, and this thread (the theorycrafting thread) is about to be closed, does that mean that we are no longer permitted to discuss theorycrafting? I would assume not, but I don't see another thread that relates to the topic. Is a replacement thread going to be made when this is closed? Or should someone take it upon themselves?

This thread is for discussion of theorycrafting. The wiki article is for ideas which have made it through all the vetting, and resultantly we have consensus on the conclusion. This is our sandbox. That is our final painting at any given time.
#8434SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kahdrick
Originally Posted by Disquette
This thread is for discussion of theorycrafting. The wiki article is for ideas which have made it through all the vetting, and resultantly we have consensus on the conclusion. This is our sandbox. That is our final painting at any given time.
Right, but this thread is going to be closed.
#8435SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Nemaa
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
I'd like to see a parse with 22 Expertise (87-90 ER) and another with 21 Expertise (83-86 ER). If the number is 5.5%, we should see no dodges with 22, and few dodges with 21.
I'm in 22 expertise (5.5% reduction) for more than two weeks and I saw dodges. Recount says usually 1-1.5% of my attacks were dodged.

But check my post here:
http://elitistjerks.com/692944-post8196.html
#8436SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by NihilX
Test 96 please, I've just tested 100 and I've got 0 dodges out of 187 swings, 96 windfury procs and 36 SS.

I know it's not a really relevant sample, however we bloody 1-shotted RoS, and as Mother is next I cannot test further tonight.
You are aware that RoS cannot dodge while casting right? It sort of negates testing for dodge on that particular mob.

Originally Posted by Kahdrick
So at the risk of sounding like a complete moron, if discussion about theorycrafting is not to be done at the wiki page, and this thread (the theorycrafting thread) is about to be closed, does that mean that we are no longer permitted to discuss theorycrafting? I would assume not, but I don't see another thread that relates to the topic. Is a replacement thread going to be made when this is closed? Or should someone take it upon themselves?

-------------------

Also, Malan, I posted a correction in the wiki that was deleted (presumably because I did it in more of a "discussion" manner):
Yes that's why it was removed, someone should figure it out and then post the relevant info to the wiki for addition.

This thread is going to be closed because its a frigging monstrosity that prevents people from really finding any information in it, or even being able to follow it at the pace it moves. Someone will just need to start up new threads after this, Boethius' hope is that instead of "Enhance Shaman Mega Thread" we will have "Shaman thread subtopic 1" and "Shaman thread subtopic 2" and so on and so forth.
#8437SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1NihilX
Yes, was aware RoS is not the ideal candidate for that kind of test of course, but was out of bosses at the time.

Just completed a very late night Kara run now and I got dodged while using the 100 ER setup twice in 362 melee swings, thus concluding dodge cap is either 103 as rogues figured it out, or 108 (highly improbable to be honest).
#8438SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Spasticon
Originally Posted by Malan
Yes that's why it was removed, someone should figure it out and then post the relevant info to the wiki for addition.

This thread is going to be closed because its a frigging monstrosity that prevents people from really finding any information in it, or even being able to follow it at the pace it moves. Someone will just need to start up new threads after this, Boethius' hope is that instead of "Enhance Shaman Mega Thread" we will have "Shaman thread subtopic 1" and "Shaman thread subtopic 2" and so on and so forth.
So I have been reading through the thread for Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality infos and haven't found much. Is there info posted on the wiki (which I can't find a link to and am assuming because it's not fully public yet) which isn't in the thread? Are you able to provide the link to the wiki yet?

P.S. thanks for all the hard work. You guys make being enhancement fulfilling.
#8439SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
• Vissi
Wow Web Stats

5 Doges on the night w/96.

Physical:
2411 hits 11 parry 5 Dodge
Windfury:
970 hits 0 parry 0 dodge
Stormstrike:
567 hits 1 parry 0 dodge

Last edited by Vissi : 04/09/08 at 1:32 PM. Reason: Added more detailed information
#8440SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kletha
Originally Posted by Spasticon
Is there info posted on the wiki (which I can't find a link to and am assuming because it's not fully public yet) which isn't in the thread? Are you able to provide the link to the wiki yet?

P.S. thanks for all the hard work. You guys make being enhancement fulfilling.
You didn't check the first page.

EDIT: Also, Malan. I can't seem to find a change log on the Wiki. It's soo much easier to just check that section if anything new has come than to read the entire thing through.
#8441SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Simprider
Originally Posted by Nemaa
I'm in 22 expertise (5.5% reduction) for more than two weeks and I saw dodges. Recount says usually 1-1.5% of my attacks were dodged.
Confirmed with same amount of expertise.
#8442SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Zula
I read this thread very often to see if there is something new in simulation, or in weight stats for the EP calculation.
About weapon i have something to say: the dps of a weapon is the number that identify the medium damage (for example 97,5 of a [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]. But this weapon has a range of dps (177-330) that has a lower one of 177.

another weapon [Claw of Molten Fury] is usually consider a wrong choice but it has a range of 216-325 so the minimum is higher than 177.

Now, i know that there are other difference (like + hit rating, + ap etc etc) to consider in the choice of a weapon, but
have you consider in your simulation that a closer range means a costant dps? and a wide range (like the merciless one) means that you do some swing whit very low damage from the weapon? or maybe you think that is not rilevant?

I'm sorry for my english, i'm italian and i don't write in english often
#8443SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Originally Posted by Zula
I read this thread very often to see if there is something new in simulation, or in weight stats for the EP calculation.
About weapon i have something to say: the dps of a weapon is the number that identify the medium damage (for example 97,5 of a [Merciless Gladiator's Pummeler]. But this weapon has a range of dps (177-330) that has a lower one of 177.

another weapon [Claw of Molten Fury] is usually consider a wrong choice but it has a range of 216-325 so the minimum is higher than 177.

Now, i know that there are other difference (like + hit rating, + ap etc etc) to consider in the choice of a weapon, but
have you consider in your simulation that a closer range means a costant dps? and a wide range (like the merciless one) means that you do some swing whit very low damage from the weapon? or maybe you think that is not rilevant?

I'm sorry for my english, i'm italian and i don't write in english often
Watch your terminology a bit. DPS = damage per second, and describes the 97.5 on the S2 mace, whereas the actual damage is 177-330.

Anyway, the range on a weapon's damage is irrelevant, as its actual damage will average out over time. (Specifically, those little Windfuries and Stormstrikes you get on the low-end of the range will be offset by big ones that fall on the high end.) You can pretty much ignore the actual damage values (e.g., 177-330 vs. 216-325) and focus only on the DPS (97.5 vs. 100.2, with the 100.2 being superior) and the speed (2.6 vs. 2.7, where 2.7 is superior). Even then, though, that just gives you a quick estimate of which will be better, ignoring stats--your best bet is always to use Yo!'s sim. In this case, the S2 mace has ever so slightly better stats, almost certainly not enough to overcome the DPS and speed difference, but again, the sim is how you can find out for sure.
#8444SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Zula, over time you're going to roll high with the same frequency as you're going to roll low.

Thus, the damage range plays no role in PvE DPS. Consistency may be another issue, though one assumes there are so many other random factors -- the attack table, windfury, on-hit/crit procs, etc -- that "consistency" in weapon damage will be almost undetectible. Choosing a weapon with lower dps but a tighter range will result in something detectible -- less overall DPS.

But why is the Claw a wrong choice? It's a trash drop, and may be a bit better than Rising Tide thanks to being a bit slower. Besides, if it's better than what you got, pick it up!
#8445SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Kletha
EDIT: Also, Malan. I can't seem to find a change log on the Wiki. It's soo much easier to just check that section if anything new has come than to read the entire thing through.
Down at the very bottom of the article there's a row of buttons, one of which says History. Takes you here - http://elitistjerks.com/nuwiki.php?do=history&t=20765 where you can view diffs of recent changes.
#8446SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yakout
The History link does not, alas, work; one suspects it's only usable by those with editing privileges on the wiki. (I.e., going to the wiki page I don't even see said row of buttons.)
#8447SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
I'll mention that to Boethius, the diffs should be visible to everyone.
#8448SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ardonomus
With regards to the expertise stuff, here's a combat log of tonights raid up to Mother. The log is a bit messed up, I dont know what happened, perhaps I did something wrong or it's just the natural progression of the 2.4 Beta WWS client. It's worth noting that I didn't start recording after Naj'entus due to the simple fact that I forgot to do /combatlog!

107 Expertise Rating (27 Expertise, 6.75%), no dodges. Pacifier - WWS
Expertise gear used:
[Shard of Contempt]
[Shapeshifter's Signet]
[Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
[Gloves of the Searing Grip]

I'll do tomorrows raid (Finish BT, start Hyjal) with 103 rating (26 Expertise, -6.50%)and see if I get any dodges then.
Expertise gear going to be used:
[Shard of Contempt]
[Shapeshifter's Signet]
[Brooch of Deftness]
[Gloves of the Searing Grip]

Hopefully I'll remember to /combatlog at zone-in tomorrow.
#8449SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Shinanigans
Alright, I have read a ton of shit on the topic, but I just want to come back to the masters before I come to final conclusion.

I am currently sitting at 211 passive haste rating and 111 hit. I have read on the WoW Shaman forums that a complete hit cap (221 hit) is needed to be reached in order for anything over 200 haste rating to actual make a very solid impact on white damage.

Current Haste Gear (211 haste rating):

[Cloak of Fiends]
[Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes]
[Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
[Grips of Damnation]
[Band of Devastation] X 2
[Vanir's Left Fist of Brutality]

I can drop both of my rings for some less stellar ones to drop my haste rating down to 149 if that would help my overall DPS. The two rings that I would replace them with are [Vindicator's Band of Triumph] [Band of Eternity] (The Revered version).

My main question to you all is whether it is true that you must be hit capped (Not sure if this exists at 221. Just going off what I read.) for 211 haste rating to be truly effective? If you do need to be hit capped for it, how much haste rating could I get away with with 111 hit rating?

Thank you very much for your time and guidance.
#8450SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Shakkha
Welcome to the no-offhand club! Stinky thing only dropped the one time i was sitting out. :s

However I agree, Brutallus is the new patchwerk for melee dps, quite a fun benchmark.

Too bad wws seems bugged for pet damage at the moment your hunter did a lot more damage that showed here i hope for him.

Our wws for yesterday's kill is bugged as hell for that, but if you want to something to compare yours: Wow Web Stats

It would be nice if you guys could link some of your brutallus kills i think it's interesting, although the current buggy state of wws make it somewhat hard to be relevant, our hunters all performed better than showed.

Still it's interesting to see the difference between 7 and 8 healers setup imo.
#8451SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mox
Also remember searing totem is currently bugged on WWS too, so if you keep a 100% uptime with a 3/3 call of flame you're looking at about 115-125 DPS more than whats shown on WWS at the moment. According to recount (that counts totem dmg) I did 2098.6 DPS / 759339 Damage on the kill so searing totem did ~47k damage.

Brutallus first kill

Thats with 16/45/0 spec, twisting + 2 shocks/10 secs. Often did back to back ES to avoid FS clipping since I have both SS charges. FS/ES/ES/FS/ES/ES was basically it.
#8452SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Thais
hi,

when i run yo's simulator with raidbuffs marked i get an aep-value for haste of 1.09. last time i checked ( several weeks ago ) it was much more and in the first post the estimated value for end game is 1.69.

i'm a little bit confused, can anybody help?
#8453SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Thais test without hastepots.


To Mox:
"Fs/es vs. fs/es/es

24 shocks per 2 minutes, Reverberation fs/es: 216DPS

8 shocks per 2 minutes fs only: 68DPS
16 shocks per 2minutes es only 118DPS
total:
24 shocks per 2minute fs/es/es 186DPS

Even if you can get SS debuff for every es its only +22dps and total 208DPS.
Even without scorch + CoE and with SS fs/es is better than fs/es/es. 204dps vs 194dps

Edit: numbers dont include conclusion but its change nothing for results its just multplier"

Old math but its show that fs with only three tick is superrior to SS charge boosted ES.
#8454SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
Originally Posted by Shinanigans
My main question to you all is whether it is true that you must be hit capped (Not sure if this exists at 221. Just going off what I read.) for 211 haste rating to be truly effective? If you do need to be hit capped for it, how much haste rating could I get away with with 111 hit rating?
Regardless of class or spec, if someone tells you that you need X of some stat to be effective, they're almost certainly wrong. Run the simulator, get stat weights, see if any of the items you could be wearing are better for you than the items you are wearing.
#8455SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Illundai
Originally Posted by Mox
Also remember searing totem is currently bugged on WWS too, so if you keep a 100% uptime with a 3/3 call of flame you're looking at about 115-125 DPS more than whats shown on WWS at the moment. According to recount (that counts totem dmg) I did 2098.6 DPS / 759339 Damage on the kill so searing totem did ~47k damage.

Brutallus first kill

Thats with 16/45/0 spec, twisting + 2 shocks/10 secs. Often did back to back ES to avoid FS clipping since I have both SS charges. FS/ES/ES/FS/ES/ES was basically it.
Khaelyn - WWS

Last night's kill. So add about 85-95 dps from Searing Totem for a total of ~1950 DPS. I was doing 2.1k dps until my Demonslaying faded (which I only realised after the fight... sigh) and I went OOM at some point due to having to blow SRage too early (Burn forced me to use it, I was dropping low)
#8456SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
All info from the OP wiped clean. Wiki is the sole point of reference now.
#8457SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ribbitjones
Improved WWS report

You can view the improved WWS report accounting damage for your Fire totems.

Look on your report you should see this sentence:
"This report might have some bugs, and will improve as the dev goes on."
Click on the dot at the end of the sentence.

Thank you to my fellow enh shaman - Nia - for finding that out.

Example:
http://wowwebstats.com/wxmqw6tuhfqgw
#8458SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Illundai
Originally Posted by Ribbitjones
You can view the improved WWS report accounting damage for your Fire totems.

Look on your report you should see this sentence:
"This report might have some bugs, and will improve as the dev goes on."
Click on the dot at the end of the sentence.

Thank you to my fellow enh shaman - Nia - for finding that out.

Example:
http://wowwebstats.com/wxmqw6tuhfqgw
Then it doesn't split into boss attempts for my parses.
#8459SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Xiongmao
Originally Posted by Illundai
Khaelyn - WWS

Last night's kill. So add about 85-95 dps from Searing Totem for a total of ~1950 DPS. I was doing 2.1k dps until my Demonslaying faded (which I only realised after the fight... sigh) and I went OOM at some point due to having to blow SRage too early (Burn forced me to use it, I was dropping low)
I had that problem too, so I justed started popping them right before the pull, and another one at 3minutes, bit more expensive on wipes, but at least it's rarer to forget. I just park an alt in hinterlands cave to farm 2-3 ghost mushrooms before I log on to my main.

Thanks for the searing totem reminder by the way, I'm closer to 2k dps!

As for what ribbitjones was saying, try: Wow Web Stats and click on the period right after "dev goes on". Though I'm not 100% sure it's accurate because I know I had 100% uptime on searing totem and the report shows it only adding 26 dps.

Edit: spelling

Second Edit: after further investigation, it's probably just a bug in the new engine. From Laeth's wws, the searing totem did ~32k damage, while from mine it shows ~7k damage.

Last edited by Xiongmao : 04/10/08 at 12:16 PM.
#8460SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Spasticon
Originally Posted by Illundai
Then it doesn't split into boss attempts for my parses.
It's still very early alpha preview of the new parser. Good news is it credits us with our totems.
#8461SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pathbearer
I have a silly and (hopefully) easy question regarding Yo!'s simulator that I can't seem to find an answer to in here, or on the simulator itself.

Regarding the Haste% field, when you start the simulator up it has a default of 5% entered already. Now, is this like Spell hit% in that it's a standard talent bonus (3% listed for Nature's Guidance), like some averaged Flurry addition, or is it an arbitrary number put in the simulator when you start it up? I've always wondered if I'm throwing up my Weights because I have been entering my base value of haste off my character screen (which is way under 5%).
#8462SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
That's just a sample value, if you have no haste gear, enter 0. Don't enter anything for flurry.
#8463SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pathbearer
Originally Posted by Malan
That's just a sample value, if you have no haste gear, enter 0. Don't enter anything for flurry.
Thank you very much! I figured as much, but again, I didn't want to throw off my Weights and calculations on an assumption.
#8464SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Shalas
Originally Posted by Shenanigans
My main question to you all is whether it is true that you must be hit capped (Not sure if this exists at 221. Just going off what I read.) for 211 haste rating to be truly effective? If you do need to be hit capped for it, how much haste rating could I get away with with 111 hit rating?
Regardless of class or spec, if someone tells you that you need X of some stat to be effective, they're almost certainly wrong. Run the simulator, get stat weights, see if any of the items you could be wearing are better for you than the items you are wearing.
Corollary: if it's on the WoW forums, and it isn't in blue, it's probably wrong.

For example: 221 hit rating would put you at 14% hit. Our miss chance is 28% and we get 9% from talents, so you'd still have a miss chance of 5% at that point. The hit cap has been 300 for about 6 months.

211 haste rating is 13.4% haste; I don't see what's so damn special about that number. With flurry it'd put your 2.6s weapons at 1.76. The only theoretical reduction in haste rating's efficacy I'm aware of would be the amount that would drop you from 1.51 to 1.5s, and even still you'd see an increase in DPS.

Haste is ALWAYS good. Even if you miss a lot, it's better to miss fast than miss slow. There are surely gear levels where 1 point of hit rating will have more value than 1 point of haste rating, but rarely is that the choice you have to make.

Planning an upgrade? It's easy! Just know your EP, and stop reading the WoW forums.
#8465SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ilmatar
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
stop reading the WoW forums.
This is the very best advice, second only to "Read the OP".
#8466SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Wolfhand
Hello, here's a small set of questions regarding haste.

I raid with my guild as Enhancement and have been doing fairly well for myself in BT/Hyjal recently. Haste rating has been creeping into my gear as of late, and the prospect of maximizing it has been kind of tantalizing, although I'm kind of loathe to trade it for hit. But then I got a different idea.

I've been putting together a rough "best-in-slot" profile for solely going after haste rating as Enhancement, and have run into a few problems along the way while testing how it might work numerically. I've looked around somewhat for definitive answers, but the wowwiki page didn't really help and pretty much all my searches regarding 'haste' turn up '15.76 haste rating is 1%' or something similar.

The %haste bonuses from Flurry and Bloodlust seem to benefit my weapon speed in a different manner than haste rating to some degree. What exactly is going on there? Up until now, I thought that obtaining 100% haste would cut my weapon speed in half, 200% to a fourth, and so on. But between a Dragonspine proc(20~%) and Flurry/BL(30%/30%), my weapon speed is cut by more than half.

This is going to sound silly, but my ultimate goal in seeing what one can do by stacking enough haste doesn't really have anything to do with maximizing DPS; it's to see if I make your average grinding experience with a two-handed weapon enjoyable. I am well aware that 2h is completely inferior for any cases where sustained damage is involved, but I enjoy using them from time to time and would like to get more use out of them in solo play. Since(as aforementioned) most haste gear has little to no hit and already packs a decent balance of agility/crit rating and ATP, I don't have to tweak much to test it out if I collect haste gear exclusively.

Ultimately, I figure it has to come down to the two-handed weapon to become capable of swinging nearly twice(with haste) in the same timeframe that your average dual-wielder swings once with both weapons(without haste). So when the max amount of haste % I was able to dredge up ideally didn't break 30% by itself, I thought I was wasting my time.

But if haste rating from gear and % haste effects have some sort of varying impact, then I figured it was still worth looking into.

The ideal profile I could come up with picking out mail and leather pieces with haste rating taking that into consideration(using WoWHead to rifle through potential equipment):

Chest:       Embrace of the Phoenix                - 44 Haste (2.79%)
Feet:        Skyshatter Greaves                    - 20 Haste (1.27%)
Hands:       Fists of Mukoa                        - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Head:        Duplicitous Guise                     - 34 Haste (2.16%)
Legs:        Shallow-grave Trousers                - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Shoulders:   Swiftstrike Shoulders                 - 38 Haste (2.41%)
Waist:       Shadow-walker's Cord                  - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Wrist:       Bindings of Lightning Reflexes        - 27 Haste (1.71%)
Neck:        Clutch of Demise                      - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Finger1:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Finger2:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Back:        Cloak of Fiends                       - 25 Haste (1.59%)
Weapon:      The Blade of Harbingers               - 53 Haste (3.36%)

Total                                              - 437 Haste(27.73%)

Flurry                                                        (30.00%)?
Bloodlust                                                     (30.00%)?

Dragonspine Trophy                                 - 325 Haste(20.62%)

Normal max:					             (108.35%)?
So, I figured where better to ask? What exactly am I missing here, guys?

Last edited by Wolfhand : 04/10/08 at 6:51 PM.
#8467SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ardonomus
Had another expertise-raid tonight with 103 expertise rating. No dodges with expertise gear. WWS Loading...

The log shows up 15 swing dodges, 2 WF dodges and 1 SS dodge. This is because I somehow managed to die on the council, and at some point during the fight I had clicked my hotkey for closetgnome to swap me into my PVP gear without noticing. This resulted in me ankhing with PVP gear on, you could say I was well annoyed when I ankhed with 0 expertise. However, the only dodges in the parse are on the Council kill parse, which means none of my other swings with expertise gear was dodged. I could of course have been dodged when in my expertise gear half of that parse though, so I dont know if I'll have to do another raid in the same gear just to make sure.
#8468SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deetz
I've been trying to find out which to use, i have my hit rating at 13.44% and expertise at 2.75% but im trying to decide which is best for my neck peice and its rather [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] this neck which will give me about 1% to expertise and hit rating by equipping, but the proc is 100 expertise that procs quite a lot (which goes to 10.25% expertise when proc'd) but doing so i lose 64AP .......
Or should i use [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] which will give me that 64AP when equipped and procs for 333-388 damage or so, and can crit but isnt affected by +spelldamage ....Im having a hard time choosing because they both help, one for good bursts, the other for some good over time damage but they seem almost the same..... If you want to see my toon on the Armory its Deetz, on Kirin tor a troll shaman...... I've seen everyones info, and it has helped me, and im hoping you could help me with this now. please and thanks
#8469SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I've been wondering the same thing, and I think my question boils down to this -- is there a way to assign an EP value to spell damage procs (Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom, Romulo's Poison Vial, Shattered Sun Pendant of Might, etc)? If I had an EP value, then I could simply calculate which is better rather than which i like more.

On a different subject, once this thread is closed, the plan is to start new discussion threads for different aspects of Enhancement theorycrafting. Could links to those threads be added to the wiki? I don't want to wander around lost and find myself in, for example, the "[Shaman] Elemental v. Enhance - balance QQ thread."
#8470SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Yes you just need to figure out what the damage proc is, what its "average value" is based on uptime, and then figure out how much attack power in the sim it takes to yield that same DPS increase.
#8471SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I just realized I have a contribution for the wiki. Mark of Vindication has a higher EP value than Romulo's Poison Vial, is farmable, and is available at level 62 for the up-and-coming shaman too!
#8472SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1keltzed
Originally Posted by Wolfhand
Hello, here's a small set of questions regarding haste.

Chest:       Embrace of the Phoenix                - 44 Haste (2.79%)
Feet:        Skyshatter Greaves                    - 20 Haste (1.27%)
Hands:       Fists of Mukoa                        - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Head:        Duplicitous Guise                     - 34 Haste (2.16%)
Legs:        Shallow-grave Trousers                - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Shoulders:   Swiftstrike Shoulders                 - 38 Haste (2.41%)
Waist:       Shadow-walker's Cord                  - 37 Haste (2.35%)
Wrist:       Bindings of Lightning Reflexes        - 27 Haste (1.71%)
Neck:        Clutch of Demise                      - 30 Haste (1.90%)
Finger1:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Finger2:     Band of Devastation                   - 31 Haste (1.97%)
Back:        Cloak of Fiends                       - 25 Haste (1.59%)
Weapon:      The Blade of Harbingers               - 53 Haste (3.36%)

Total                                              - 437 Haste(27.73%)

Flurry                                                        (30.00%)?
Bloodlust                                                     (30.00%)?

Dragonspine Trophy                                 - 325 Haste(20.62%)

Normal max:					             (108.35%)?
So, I figured where better to ask? What exactly am I missing here, guys?
My understanding is that different haste effects stack differently than you're applying them here. Percent-based haste effects stack multiplicatively, and all of your haste rating numbers get added together, converted to one percentage, and then that stacks as a multiplier on your other haste effects. For example, if you just have Flurry and Bloodlust up, rather than attacking at (100% - 30%) - 30% = 40% of your base attack time (60% haste), you attack at (100% - 30%) * (100% - 30%) = 70% * 70% = 49% of your base attack time = 51% haste.

So for your numbers, you'd get your best-caste haste by adding together the haste rating from all of your static haste items and the Dragonspine Trophy to get 762 haste rating (48.35%, though I didn't check your haste rating -> haste %age) math, and then apply that as a multiplier on the haste from Flurry and Bloodlust. (100% - 30%) * (100% - 30%) * (100% - 48.35%) = 70% * 70% * 51.65% = 25.3% of base attack rate or 74.7% haste.
#8473SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
So in this case, 100% haste actually means infinite weapon speed. Huh. And it's set up so that that divide-by-zero situation couldn't occur unless you had 100% haste from a single source, since it's multiplicative. 1576 haste rating to crash the game if Blizzard is sloppy!

Thanks a lot, this clears up the discrepancies I had pretty cleanly.
#8474SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
No actually, 100% haste does *not* mean a weapon speed of zero. I can't remember the actual method, I'm sure someone knows, but its not just WpnSpeed * Haste%. Its not possible to reach zero weapon speed.

[e] Ah here it is. NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (1 + HASTE_PERCENT)
#8475SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
Okay, now I'm confused again. Am I wrong in thinking putting %100 into that formula would mean

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (2) ?

That is to say, having 100% haste is only 50% of base attack rate? That's what I initially thought it was until a contradicting situation came up(flurry/dragonspine haste/BL cut my base attack rate by more than 50%, and this combination is not 100% haste).

Can someone explain how this formula works in context?
#8476SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Buanna
100% haste means you get 100% more attacks in the same unit time.

If you normally got 20 swings in 20 seconds and some how managed to gain 100% haste, you'd get 40 swings in 20 seconds; a 100% increase in swings.
#8477SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daler
Originally Posted by Wolfhand
Okay, now I'm confused again. Am I wrong in thinking putting %100 into that formula would mean

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (2) ?

That is to say, having 100% haste is only 50% of base attack rate? That's what I initially thought it was until a contradicting situation came up(flurry/dragonspine haste/BL cut my base attack rate by more than 50%, and this combination is not 100% haste).

Can someone explain how this formula works in context?
If I remember correctly, % haste modifiers are separately multiplicative and plain haste rating (passive and procs) is additive.

NEW_SPEED = OLD_SPEED / (1 + Haste % modifiers) / (1 + Haste rating/15.67/100)

So the above gear set would yield: NEW_SPEED = 3.5 / 1.3 / 1.3 / (1 + 762/15.76/100) = 1.4 secs

The problem with the first post in this discussion is that all haste effects were treated additively, which I'm fairly certain isn't the case.
#8478SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Hedin
Why you think that 2.6 sec = SPEED?! It's Swing Time!
Speed=1/Swing_Time
Haste effects Speed like New_speed=Old_speed*Haste
So New_Swing_Time=Old_Swing_Time/Haste
where Haste=(1+Haste_from_flurry)*(1+Haste_from_largest_nonself_modifier)*(1+Haste_rating/15.67/100)
#8479SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Wolfhand
Allright, I think I get it.

So if you had say, a 3.0 speed weapon and 52% haste from gear, then

NEW_SPEED = 3.0 / (1.52) = 1.97, and while the swing time has been cut by something closer to 33% the amount of attacks you gain in a normal timeframe using this weapon increases by 52%.

Adding in Flurry,

NEW_SPEED = 3.0 / ((1.52) * (1.3)) = 1.51, the swing time has been cut nearly in half, increasing the number of attacks you gain in a normal timeframe by 97-98%.

I just interpreted what %haste meant incorrectly the first time, then. Thanks a lot, everyone!
#8480SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
I have 4% haste from armor items.
Hasted Speed = 2.6 / (1 + 0.04) = 2.5

I have 50% haste from items.
Hasted speed = 2.6 / (1 + 0.5) = 1.73

Here's another way to look at it.

2.0sec / swing = 30 swing/min
30 swing/min * 1.3 = 39 swing/min
60 seconds/min / 39 swing/min = 1.538 seconds / swing

The easiest way to look at haste is that it is increasing the number of swings per minute that you can have. 50% haste isn't really reducing your swing timer per se (inded there are values of haste% where your swing timer won't match up with the value!) its increasing your number of attacks in a minute by 50%. The system that blizzard is using ensures that you can never reach a 0 attack speed.

Last edited by Malan : 04/11/08 at 9:40 AM.
#8481SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Deetz
Alright for [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] i found out the proc rate, its about every 40-45seconds or so, and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] procs a lot more, about about every 30-35seconds or so (i spent a good 45min testing this out myself) And sorta in a way i think the expertise one is better because of the proc of gaining more hits, over the instant damage......but just for second thoughts what do you all think? :P
#8482SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
That's not the proc rate, you're observing the cooldown on the proc. We need to know at what rate it procs when not on cooldown, that requires a long log file.
#8483SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1kelben
Shrug - tell me how to take a log file for this proc, and i'll submit it. Oh i'm still needing a good place to test it... no more doc boom since I'm melee now.

edit: WoW Combat Log Parser is this the mod I should use?
#8484SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Abakus
Procc Rate Determination is easy in Blasted Lands.
Just fight Servants of xxx, unless you follow the quest line, they are invincible and do not hit that hard.
#8485SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhagok
I have a question about twisting with the new mechanic of being able to destroy single totems. How would a macro look like that would be for twisting which would destroy the current air totem before placing a new one? Or well simply the Macro code for the destruction of the air totem would suffice, I think I can work out the rest myself ^^

Anyway I think it would help sustain twisting after 2.4 as our manareg got severly nurfed due to the int/spirit change. I for one got me 2 full stacks of Demonic Runes as of now to sustain full twisting on Brutallus.
#8486SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Shipo
The command is something like /totemdestroy(totem nr) but it won't help with twisting due to the fact that it will simply kill the totem, not recall it. We dont get any mana back if we kill it .

Untill they change the destroy mechanic casting the new totem will still be better.

PS: found it after a few more google atempts.


/run DestroyTotem(#)

Replace # with 1-4 (1 being Earth, and so on).
#8487SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Rhagok
after 2.4 as our manareg got severly nurfed due to the int/spirit change
Say what?
#8488SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
On my shaman, I get a lot of mp5 mana regen from Water Shield and Mana Spring totem. Shamanistic Rage is a nice button to push. In a raid environment shadow priest vampirism or paladin JoW & BoW also help. As far as I know, none of these have changed with 2.4.

On my holy priest, the new int / spir synergy has given me a significant increase to spirit-based mana regen, both I5SR & OO5SR. This makes my /stopcasting macro even more fun and useful for long encounters. None of this was really relevant to my shaman, and as far as I know still isn't.

So unless I'm missing something, shaman (any spec) didn't lose any mana regen with the patch, but perhaps didn't gain as much as a priest, druid, or mage did. A relative loss, I suppose.
#8489SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
I guess he referring to the natural regen outside 5s rule. In that we might have lost i guess.

Blizzard hotfixed SSO exalted necklace. Can it still be dodged, parried and etc. or they fixed that too beside proc problem?
#8490SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
If you are outside the 5 second rule as an enhancement shaman, you're doing it wrong.
#8491SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Binkenstein
Originally Posted by Malan
If you are outside the 5 second rule as a shaman, you're doing it wrong.
I think it applies to all specs, really.
#8492SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
I know it's a crime to put hit rating gems in one's yellow sockets. But I feel I have reason to do so. Here's the Yo sim to back me up: *Clicky*. Linked to save space. I have the standard enhancement build with full hit talents.

The image shows the sim of my gear with inscribed in the three sockets I -could- put rigid (hit) in. Am I loosing my mind or is that a 3 in the hit rating weight?! Ran the sim several times and it came out with the same ratio every time.
#8493SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Leonina
As "standard build" you have +9% hit, so how can you only have 7% inputted on the calc?
#8494SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1LazyJoe
Originally Posted by Tuili
I know it's a crime to put hit rating gems in one's yellow sockets. But I feel I have reason to do so. Here's the Yo sim to back me up: *Clicky*. Linked to save space. I have the standard enhancement build with full hit talents.

The image shows the sim of my gear with inscribed in the three sockets I -could- put rigid (hit) in. Am I loosing my mind or is that a 3 in the hit rating weight?! Ran the sim several times and it came out with the same ratio every time.
Nothing surprising. You have to inputyou total hit% in the sim, including talents (your value should be 16,42% so). With 7,42% hit you wouldn't even be capped for special attacks, so your hit rating would be around twice as valuable
#8495SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Thank you. Can't believe I didn't realise that. Edit: I was for some reason under the impression that the sim used the "mouse over" values from the paper doll and had the 9% hit by default. Sorry for polluting the thread.
#8496SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhagok
There is no default 9% Hit, some people who still try an Elemental Subspec they only have 6% by themselves so you have to add it manually.
#8497SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• frmorrison
Originally Posted by Atren
Blizzard hotfixed SSO exalted necklace. Can it still be dodged, parried and etc. or they fixed that too beside proc problem?
The scyrer proc counts as a melee attack, so it can still be dodged, parried, missed, etc.
#8498SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Blazingwater
Originally Posted by Deetz
Alright for [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] i found out the proc rate, its about every 40-45seconds or so, and [Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] procs a lot more, about about every 30-35seconds or so (i spent a good 45min testing this out myself) And sorta in a way i think the expertise one is better because of the proc of gaining more hits, over the instant damage......but just for second thoughts what do you all think? :P
Do we yet have an EP value on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for Aldor? Seems to be of better use than the Scryer proc.
#8499SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Originally Posted by kelben
... Oh i'm still needing a good place to test it... no more doc boom since I'm melee now.
Serve the servant. At 1ish % HP he gains an absorb all shield, only penetrable with a quest item. You can bash away for hours. Oh, and tell him I said hi.
#8500SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Blazingwater
Do we yet have an EP value on [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] for Aldor? Seems to be of better use than the Scryer proc.
I would have to guess it would be a ((200 * 10 * 0.9)/60) or 30EP for the aldor proc. This is, of course, figuring it's a 0.9 ppm.
#8501SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Artoxia
Hello (first post ever :-) )

At first, i want to say "thanks" to all who brought up this Theroycraft for enhancement shamans. Since i started playing my shaman, i came here to get anwers for my questions.

Link to my Character if you want to have a Look:
The World of Warcraft Armory

What I want to discuss is the choice of weapons.

In your post, you recommend that Vanir's Righ Fist would be the best choice (except from Season3 Weapon) for main hand. After we got the new badge vendor on our realm, I switched from my old combination (rising Tide / Syphon) to Vanir's / Syphon. As expected, I mentioned an increase of DPS.

I used Yo's simulator (Crazy Shaman's DPS Calculator) to proof my new combination of weapons. The result was around 1380 DPS (6200 boss armor). I changed the setup to "dual syphon" (replaced Vanir's stats by Syphon stats). Against my expectations, the DPS result was higher (1460 DPS).

I don't know, how the simulator works and how reliable it is... do you think that Syphon/Syphon could be still the best combination for me?

A short overview for my stats:

1718 AttackPower
29.32 % Crit
111 Hitrating

With best regards,

Artoxia
#8502SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ardonomus
I had some strange values with regards to weapon choice as well. I ended up at Vanir's MH and Syphon OH would be the best for me now. This combo was superior even to S3/S3, which I found to be strange so I'm not convinced this is correct.
#8503SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Artoxia
Originally Posted by Ardonomus
I had some strange values with regards to weapon choice as well. I ended up at Vanir's MH and Syphon OH would be the best for me now. This combo was superior even to S3/S3, which I found to be strange so I'm not convinced this is correct.
Do you have 2 Syphons to make some tests? If you can believe in the results of Yo's simulator, the Syphon/Syphon combo can be even better than Vanir's/Syphon....

I'm still waiting for my second Syphon.. therefore I cant give it a try at the moment...
#8504SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Wraithlin
Some weapon speeds interact in unusual ways, for me the badge MH is a downgrade from the MH claw Al'ar drops.
#8505SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Artoxia
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
Some weapon speeds interact in unusual ways, for me the badge MH is a downgrade from the MH claw Al'ar drops.
Can't confirm that... my experiences show that Vanir's > rising tide > al'ar MH
#8506SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Originally Posted by stabbymcgee
I would have to guess it would be a ((200 * 10 * 0.9)/60) or 30EP for the aldor proc. This is, of course, figuring it's a 0.9 ppm.
Bah too bad, guess it was too much to hope for an upgrade over [Choker of Serrated Blades] which comes in at around 130 EP. The stats on the SSO neck are worth around 90, so a decent item for a T5 shaman at most.

Multiple runs of the sims just now with my stats showed the 2 badge weapons to be about equivalent to using a Rising Tide and Syphon combo. Swapping a badge weapon for either the Tide or Syphone brought my average DPS down a little bit, but it was capable of hitting the same numbers in the sim as my normal weapons. I wouldn't say the badge weapons are "best" by any means, they're simply a way for non-T6 shaman to pick up 2 weapon upgrades rapidly. Anyone with T6 weapons is probably better off sticking with them.

Last edited by Malan : 04/14/08 at 10:58 AM.
#8507SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Artoxia
Originally Posted by Malan
Bah too bad, guess it was too much to hope for an upgrade over [Choker of Serrated Blades] which comes in at around 130 EP. The stats on the SSO neck are worth around 90, so a decent item for a T5 shaman at most.

Multiple runs of the sims just now with my stats showed the 2 badge weapons to be about equivalent to using a Rising Tide and Syphon combo. Swapping a badge weapon for either the Tide or Syphone brought my average DPS down a little bit, but it was capable of hitting the same numbers in the sim as my normal weapons. I wouldn't say the badge weapons are "best" by any means, they're simply a way for non-T6 shaman to pick up 2 weapon upgrades rapidly. Anyone with T6 weapons is probably better off sticking with them.
Maybe you should add this to your entrance posting. There you recommend Vanir's as the best choice after the Season3 axe...
#8508SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Tuili
Remove please. Lag doubled the post, sorry.

Last edited by Tuili : 04/14/08 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Dounble post. Please remove this.
#8509SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Best combo in game now for me is to get the Mount H trash [Claw of Molten Fury] for Main Hand and to put my Syphon in the off hand. Never underestimate:

1. The power of slow weapons. (This combo is (2.7 / 2.8) Top damage > all
2. The power of a slightly faster weapon in the MH. Not a big thing, but it does give more MH WFs in the long run.

Putting the 2.6 ~108 dps Mounting V in OH (in the sim) gives less total DPS on my 10.000 hours + sims.
#8510SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Artoxia
Maybe you should add this to your entrance posting. There you recommend Vanir's as the best choice after the Season3 axe...
That's not what it says at all.
Shaman: Enhancement
Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality from the Sunwell badge vendor is simulated at within ~10 dps of the Season 3 weapons.
It doesn't say its the best choice other than a S3. I'll reword it since people insist on reading into things, but its really slightly less dps than any of the T6 weapons.
#8511SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Wraithlin
I would say the badge weapons are basically a victory for the "Use the simulator crowd".

My numbers:
Talon + S1 axe: 1630
Badge MH+ S1 axe: 1627
Talon + Badge OH: 1655
Badge MH + OH: 1648

People are going to have to plug in numbers and see what happens.
#8512SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Right and my figures were like this (numbers are lower than Wraiths in part because I don't get Kings on raids) -
Rising Tide + Syphon - 1580
Rising Tide + Badge OH - 1575
Badge MH + Syphon - 1578-1580

I didn't check replacing both, but its definitely not worth replacing 1 of the weapons at a time.
#8513SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
Originally Posted by Wraithlin
Some weapon speeds interact in unusual ways, for me the badge MH is a downgrade from the MH claw Al'ar drops.
"Some weapon speeds," dunno what you mean by this. In my testing, for weapons slower than 2.2s, moving from a slow weapon to a fast weapon decreases TOTAL melee dps by a factor of about .5-.6% per .1s faster. Thus, a 2.7s weapon is going to do about 1% more total damage than a 2.5s weapon.

This 1% reflects the fact that your SS and WF damage will be lessened slightly with a faster weapon, and that this has a compound effect on the rest of your stats. E.g. you get more out of each point of AP, each percentage of crit rating, with a slower weapon.

This should be the only "interaction" needed to explain why sims show the Al'ar talon as being best-in-game. You also may have stats that weigh crit rating higher than haste.

Also:

Originally Posted by Tulli
1. The power of slow weapons. (This combo is (2.7 / 2.8) Top damage > all
2. The power of a slightly faster weapon in the MH. Not a big thing, but it does give more MH WFs in the long run.
1) "Top damage" means nothing. Only DPS.
2) No, it bloody well does not. Even if you did MH proc more -- which is debatable -- and even if hitting more offset the damage lost from using a faster weapon -- which it can't -- one undocumented simulation wouldn't change the large body of theory that says with comparable 2.7/2.8s weapons, it really doesn't matter which hand they're in.
#8514SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Rising mh + sunwell oh = 1706
Badge mh + sunwell oh = 1719
Syphon mh + sunwell oh = 1714

Syphon get par when calculating proc for 5dps.

I gonna still keep syphon.

All T6 weapons is almoust par(again) and we can't just say what is best combo for all shamans. Use what you got.
#8515SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Toots Hepcat
More importantly, if we're talking about badge weapons, what's important is getting the best bang for your badge. If a weapon is 105 badges, and only a 5 dps upgrade, then at .25 EP/DPS it's a .19 EP/Badge upgrade. Meanwhile, a Bold Crimson Spinel is a .29 EP/Badge upgrade.

That OH fist is an insane bargain from this perspective.
#8516SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
Originally Posted by Toots Hepcat
1) "Top damage" means nothing. Only DPS.
Now we both know if that were true [Fang of Kalecgos] would be the best shammy weapon... But ok. Top damage was the wrong phrasing I guess. What I mean is out of two weapons with the same DPS the slower one will be the best choice: 1. Because of the WF mechanic 2. Because the damage done when the weapon hits is more important than the damage done over time. That's what I meant by top damage. Call it average hit damage or whatever.
#8517SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tuili
From the original Collected Works:
For PvE, either [Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE.

Good tip! I had the cat one for a while, until my guild started doing Black Temple regularly. After a few runs I swapped to Surefooted and it's the best DPS buff ever. Supremus trash, Teron trash, bloodboil trash... they all have snare effects that render both the agility and the swiftness enchants worthless. I even had my pvp trinket equipped to be able to get out of them. Surefooted has a surprisingly high proc rate and I'm often free as a bird when the other melee get rooted. Mind you we do have dispellers, but their focus is mainly the tanks/OTs. I guess you want the math on this now. I'll keep it in mind for the next run.
#8518SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Tuili
After a few runs I swapped to Surefooted and it's the best DPS buff ever
Is this a joke?
#8519SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Daler
Originally Posted by Tuili
From the original Collected Works:
For PvE, either [Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed] or [Enchant Boots - Cat's Swiftness] are going to be big payoffs. Increased run speed is hands down the best enchant you can get for PvE.

Good tip! I had the cat one for a while, until my guild started doing Black Temple regularly. After a few runs I swapped to Surefooted and it's the best DPS buff ever. Supremus trash, Teron trash, bloodboil trash... they all have snare effects that render both the agility and the swiftness enchants worthless. I even had my pvp trinket equipped to be able to get out of them. Surefooted has a surprisingly high proc rate and I'm often free as a bird when the other melee get rooted. Mind you we do have dispellers, but their focus is mainly the tanks/OTs. I guess you want the math on this now. I'll keep it in mind for the next run.
First, agility has no effect on snares whatsoever (and vice versa). Second, taking a boot enchant for performance on trash as opposed to performance on boss is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. Now, bringing two pairs of boots, one with each, might make sense for some cases. But the speed increase will vastly outperform 10 hit rating on bosses, which should be your gearing priority.
#8520SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• fangar
I think what he is referring to is that if you are snared and not DPSing you do not benefit from the agi or run speed as you are just sitting there.

Of course my response, is who cares about trash DPS? That and find new priests if they cannot dispel you with the changes made to mass dispel. Using Surefooted, while cutesy for those limited situations where you get frost novaed is just short sited. If getting rooted is your fear then start raiding with 300+ Frost resistance and never fear getting rooted.
#8521SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cabal
Regarding Scryer necklace

Everyone seems to be dismissing the Scryer version of the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] as rubbish. However, i bought it for kicks, and took it for some kalecgos, and trash leading up to, attempts. I have to say it doesnt seem all that bad. My other necklace is [Choker of Serrated Blades], which from stats alone gives me 26 more EP. But i was getting arcane strikes (the proc name), for an impressive 940+, critical. And recount was telling me it had around a 30% chance to crit. The lowest i had non crit was 410. And being magical damage, it is not mitigated by armor (i was however getting it dodged). It is, I should think, getting benefited by things like curse of shadows, misery, etc.

Granted, im terrible at math, im not even going to try to quantify the proc into AEP. But from my experience, and if you dont have best in slot necklaces, like me, it seems at least decent.

Just my experience with it, since i hadnt read much about others actually trying it out, instead of instantly dismissing it and cursing being scryer.
#8522SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Cabal
And recount was telling me it had around a 30% chance to crit.
Lets say you had 3 procs. 1 of them crit. Recount says 30%. That doesn't mean it has a 30% crit rate, that means that 30% of your observed procs were crits, and for very low numbers of procs this number becomes pretty inflated. Its the same reason people flip out when they see something like a 15% dodge rate on Storm Strike, until its pointed out that their WWS parse only had like 10 total Storm Strikes. You need a much larger sample size.

Here's a comment from WoWHead -
Just done an hour long test of the Aldor version, with my feral druid, whacking the Servant of Grol with an unmodified 1.0s attack speed.

*
In 60 minutes (3600 seconds), it procced 71 times.
*
On average, it took 51 seconds to proc again (45 seconds of which was the internal cooldown)
*
It therefore had an uptime of (710/3600*100) 19.722%.
*
This gives an average base AP increase of (0.19722*200) 39.44 AP.
*
Therefore, the Equip: bonus is roughly equivalent to 20 strength (or 40, for rogues).

It's worth bearing in mind that using specials will likely reduce the time taken slightly (to a minimum of 45 seconds), increasing the overall AP gain slightly.
If this guy's testing is accurate then the Pendant of Might (Aldor) is basically equivalent to the Choker of Serrated Blades.

Last edited by Malan : 04/14/08 at 2:53 PM.
#8523SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Cabal
My fault for not being more specific, that 30% came after around 4 hours of raiding sunwell plateau, forgot to check number of procs as raid ended somewhat late. I will try it again tonight, for more demon on dragon action, and will report back with more accurate numbers. Unfortunately i also have no WWS to present for yesterday, as the one who takes care of it forgot to make a log...
#8524SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
• stabbymcgee
Thats basically it Malan. I believe with the T6 values, the Hyjal trash neck is about 132.xx, with the aldor might being about 124.xx. Almost on par essentially. Its a good neck for a shaman not in T6 content, so there you go.

[e] My math could be wrong on the EP value on the proc. Its almost the same proc as Hourglass, so I used that math. 200ap for 10 seconds with about a 1ppm.

Last edited by stabbymcgee : 04/14/08 at 3:37 PM.
#8525SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Cabal
My fault for not being more specific, that 30% came after around 4 hours of raiding sunwell plateau, forgot to check number of procs as raid ended somewhat late. I will try it again tonight, for more demon on dragon action, and will report back with more accurate numbers. Unfortunately i also have no WWS to present for yesterday, as the one who takes care of it forgot to make a log...
Kalecgos is a horrible fight to test anything on if you aren't personally logging it, anyone on a different portal rotation than you is out of logging range.

@stabby - both the neck and the Hourglass have a 45 second cooldown, they aren't pure PPM trinkets.
#8526SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• stabbymcgee
Yea, but your math shows a 0.9ppm according to the TTT thread. Perhaps that should be revised then?
#8527SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Hm that's true. I don't follow that stuff enough to know if it works out to be the same thing, I just posted the agreed upon figures!
#8528SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1shockeffect
My guild is currently 3/4 tk and 5/6 ssc, and with the new badge vendor finally up i am getting the badge OH for 45 badges. My MH is breeching comet, as this is actually mostly an offset for me, cause my guild is low on geared resto shams. I was wondering tho, if at this point it would be worthwhile for me to put executioner on my new OH, as it will likely be with me for a while, as opposed to dual mongoose (mongoose is already on my MH).
#8529SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Philondra
Originally Posted by shockeffect
My guild is currently 3/4 tk and 5/6 ssc, and with the new badge vendor finally up i am getting the badge OH for 45 badges. My MH is breeching comet, as this is actually mostly an offset for me, cause my guild is low on geared resto shams. I was wondering tho, if at this point it would be worthwhile for me to put executioner on my new OH, as it will likely be with me for a while, as opposed to dual mongoose (mongoose is already on my MH).
This has been answered multiple times. Read the Theorycraft Wiki section regarding the break even point of Executioner vs. Mongoose. Failing that, run Yo!'s simulator to see results for your gear setup.

(Hint: If your guild hasn't even set foot in BT, it's unlikely that you have a high amount of armor penetration on your gear.)
#8530SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bragor
Well Just came back From using Yo's Sim for the weapon Choices :

2xSyphons : 1669 DPS
Badges Fist MH/Syphon OH : 1681 DPS
Badges Fist MH/Sunwell Trash Fist OH : 1697 DPS

Decent upgrade I would say if you can't get the S3 weapons (Or S4 weapons when they are released).
#8531SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Artoxia
Originally Posted by Bragor
Double post.

Delete it If Possible.
Can you post your enhancer stats? I would be interested how far they differ from my stats. For my stats, the Syphon / Syphon combination would lead to a better damage output than Badge Fist MH / Syphon OH...

my actual stats:

1770 AP
29.70% Crit
111 Hit
0 Expertise
140 Armor Penetration

based on 333 Strengh and 442 Agility.
#8532SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
You know you can just click his armory link and view them yourself right?
#8533SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bragor
Don't think thats possible Malan since I speced resto for Brut last night.

Anywhy off of my mind :

1780+ AP
18.9% hit (From Both gear & Talents)
126 ArP
33.89% Crit.
2.35% Haste
11 Expertise

I will correct them once I respec as enhancement.
#8534SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
I've got around 300 more armor pen than you and 2% more haste, about 100 less AP and 3% less crit, and the sim shows a definite DPS drop from replacing a syphon with a badge weapon.
#8535SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bragor
Stats without holding any weapons are:

AP : 1692
Haste : 2.35%
ArP : 126
Hit Rating : 153
Expertise Rating : 44

Trinkets Used : Berserkers Call, Shard of Contempt.

Weapon Enchants : Executioner On MH, Mongoose On OH.

Raid target : Level 73 Boss With 7700 Armor (Can anybody confirm that Brut is a 8800 armor boss ?)

Raid Buffs : Kings, Improved Might, Improved Mark Of The Wild, Faerie Fire, Curse Of Recklessness, Expose Weakness, Battle Shout, Blood Frenzy, Sunder Armor, Retri Pala buffs, Haste Potion, Roasted Clefthoof Meet, Flask Of Relentless Assualt (Might Change it to Demonslaying elixir).

Raid Buffs Not Included in the Calculations: Leader Of The Pack

Still Showing a ~15 DPS increase if I put the MH badge Fist instead of a Syphon.
#8536SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
Your trinket table in the wiki has Romulo's Poison Vial listed twice. Also, Mark of Vindication has slightly better EP value (54) at t4 & t5 coefficients (and into t6 content there's much better available than either).

horde version
alliance version

Also I know it's off-topic but I can't figure out how to make a signature. I'd like to include my shaman's armory link in my posts for credibility.
#8537SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Skrummel
I am doing ZA and we got lynx boss down, and we heard that the offtank should not be hitting the boss because any parries resets timer for swings done by boss. Does Windfury totem procs reset the swing timer as well, or is the proc avoiding that mechanic?
#8538SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
Bosses can't parry attacks made from behind. Melee DPS attacks from behind.
#8539SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Skrummel
Originally Posted by Jessamy
Bosses can't parry attacks made from behind. Melee DPS attacks from behind.
True, but it's more concerning the tank who is getting the totem, he will also proc from the totem, and will that proc reset the timer?
#8540SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
Parries don't reset the swing timer, they speed up the current swing. More info: [Melee Combat] Riddle me this - Parry Mechanics

And whether a hit is from Windfury or not is irrelevant. If either of the WF hits gets parried, then yes, it'll speed up the boss's swing timer. If neither the WF hit or the hit that procced it get parried, then it won't. Yes, WF will increase the chance a parry will happen, but that's only because the OT will be hitting the boss more, not because of special parry-inducing mechanic of Windfury. On the other hand, if the OT turns off his autoattack, he won't induce any parries whatsoever, regardless of whether or not he has Windfury.

[e] Apparently I fail at grammar right after lunch.
#8541SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kalyke
Originally Posted by Skrummel
True, but it's more concerning the tank who is getting the totem, he will also proc from the totem, and will that proc reset the timer?
Windfury Procs can be dodged, parried, blocked just like any other melee attack. If the Windfury Proc is parried by the boss the same hasting of the boss's next attack will occur. It is not a reset of the boss's swing timer, rather when the boss parries, his next melee attack is hasted by up to 40% depending on where the boss was within the current swing cycle. You can read up more about the hasting aspect of parry in the Protection Warrior mechanics thread. I'm sure it's listed in other areas too but that is where I read up on it.

It's really a matter of balance though, WF totem will help your tank with threat (assuming Warrior tank here since the other tanks would get different totems). If your tank is getting wtfpwned from spike damage then you may not want to give WF which could increase the chances of significant tank spike damage. If your tank(s) are doing alright and not having issues with spike damage, then more threat is always better. Tanks can counteract parry spike damage from bosses by incorporating weapon expertise into their gear as well. Boss parry percentages are used in tuning bosses and are often rather high, 10-15%+ so they probably won't be able to negate parries with expertise but they can diminish it significantly.
#8542SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by Jessamy
Your trinket table in the wiki has Romulo's Poison Vial listed twice. Also, Mark of Vindication has slightly better EP value (54) at t4 & t5 coefficients (and into t6 content there's much better available than either).
Its a problem that Boethius is looking into with the table code.

ABC
123
With the header row it duplicates the bottom row.
With no header it appears fine.
ABC
123

I am not going to list each and every single trinket out there, its already a pain in the ass to maintain. Romulo's is only the because people take it all the time and so its an illustration of the lower value of hit.
#2SourcePosted onundefined2
#8543SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Skrummel
Thanks for clarifying these things, it definitely makes more sense to me now. And will help choose appropriate totem depending on tank's gear.

Edit: But there is something I'm not sure on here though, if WF procs is an either/or concerning parries, why would the chance be higher for a parry to occur?

Last edited by Skrummel : 04/15/08 at 1:12 PM.
#8544SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1gorsameth
The chance will not be higher but the tank will make more attacks and so will get parried more often.

But the only reason to drop a wf totem for a tank is if threat is an issue. Peronaly i prefer GoA altough i am never with the tanks.
#8545SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Rhaegal
The chance each hit will be parried is exactly the same no matter what kind of hit it is (unless there's some weird talent I don't know about, like the 41 point combat talent for rogues, but for parry). Windfury just adds another hit that also has a chance to be parried. If one hit has a 10% chance to be parried, then two hits have a ~19% chance for one of them to be parried. Again, Windfury doesn't increase the chance for each hit to be parried, it just increases the number of hits that can be parried, which will result in a net increase in total number of parries. The percentage of hits that are parried remains the same.
#8546SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Mengus
Originally Posted by Bragor
Stats without holding any weapons are:

ArP : 126

Trinkets Used : Berserkers Call, Shard of Contempt.
Weapon Enchants : Executioner On MH, Mongoose On OH.
Still Showing a ~15 DPS increase if I put the MH badge Fist instead of a Syphon.
You might wanna try doing 2x Mongoose in the sim, as with your Armor Pen, I'd suspect you'll see better results with Mongoose over Executioner. That could be one of the factors differeing between you and Malan.
#8547SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Wraithlin
Sebudai said earlier that because of the way the simulator handles haste pots, he was being put in to the speed range where haste had a very low AEP. Is it possible that this is affecting the value of the badge weapons which both carry a fair chunk of hast rating ? Has anyone run the numbers without haste pots turned on ?
#8548SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• sordee
My half day wasted on trying to prove my guild shaman wrong.

TLDR intro:
So this started with me using the accepted beliefs that 100dps 2.6 or greater weapons are god, and better than the Badge items. And the current enhance was speculating to get the Vanir's Left and replace his Rising Tide. And, I'm like, uh, Rising Tide is better, clearly. Read the EJ thread, etc... But then he pointed me to some EP calculation page and showed Rising Tide as being lower than Fury. And I'm like that is totally bogus. But of course that got me going to the sim to prove him and everything else wrong. Also I forgotten too much in thread, so I figured the Sim should be gospel, no?

So on to a few Sim tests. Tests were avg of 3x1000hrs.

Base stats used:
Tauren Shaman
AP = 1640
Cr = 27.17
Haste = 2.35
Expertise = 11
Hit = 15%
Dual Mongoose, Shard of Contempt, Bezerker's Call

1) First task, with his current Setup: Is Sypon/Rising Tide better or worse than Rising Tide/Syphon. (i.e. does 2.8/2.6 matter vs 2.6/2.8)

Syphon/RT = 1289
RT/Syphon = 1288

Huh, virtual dead heat. 1DPS difference? So does order really matter? Or is sim not able to detect a difference? (And what happened to you wanted faster in the MH theory?)

2) Lets move on with the Syphon in the MH and add the OH Badge Item.

Initially when just subbing in increased Damage but slower speed for Rising Tide, i get:
Syphon/OH Badge = 1285
Ok a little bit lost by using the OH Badge, but oh wait, I forgot to add the Haste.

Syphon/OH Badge w/ 1.46 haste = 1298.

Wow, that's a bit of an eye opener.

3) Now for kicks, lets sub out the Syphon for a the MH Badge. Because surely the Syphon at 2.8 is still very good, right?

MH Badge/Oh Badge w/1.46 haste = 1284

But, whoops, forgot to add the 1% crit from the 23 agi and an additional 1.33 haste.(and -4 AP from Syphon)

MH Badge/OH Badge w/2.79 haste, 1%crit, -4 AP = 1306


Conclusions....: With the amount of haste on the Left and Right Fist, going by the Sim, it seems well over-compensate the faster speeds then all the T5/T6 weapons. Plus additional other stats make them better.
or.... The Sim is wrong?
Caveat: Haven't modeled the S3 weapons yet.


Edit 1: Is the starting haste value of 2.35, causing Haste to have a lot higher value?
#8549SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bragor
WWS For Todays Brut Kill :

http://wowwebstats.com/pfksbfnavc625?s=11091-11466

Totem Twisting is in effect too.
#8550SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
I was sure I had seen someone say that OH WF procs aren't subject to the OH damage penalty. However reading back through the history on this thread I find no such statement. Maybe my memory is making things up out of wishful thinking. Can anyone confirm this is true or definitely state this is not true?
#8551SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Freefall
Im currently running with syphon/mounting vengeanse.

With my gear im seeing about 3-4dps increase in Yo's sim if i would change to badge MH but sim doesnt take the syphon's proc in count which seems to be around 5-6dps

With syphon im @
1746ap
33,72% crit
14,9% hit
679 armor pen
2,35% haste
6 expertise
DST/tsunami
dual mongoose (i know executioneer would give increase)

235 stre / 376 agi

Last edited by Freefall : 04/16/08 at 10:04 AM.
#8552SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Morelis
Originally Posted by Jessamy
I was sure I had seen someone say that OH WF procs aren't subject to the OH damage penalty. However reading back through the history on this thread I find no such statement. Maybe my memory is making things up out of wishful thinking. Can anyone confirm this is true or definitely state this is not true?
If my memory serves me correctly the damage added by the AP bonus on the WF proc is not subject to the OH penalty, the weapon damage however is.
#8553SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
vestibule
I am doing more DPS with the badge MH 2.5 speed or not. THese badge weapons are an enhanced shaman's wet dream if you haven't been to SW yet.

Like to see some real time data on S3 MH and MV OH

Ok thanks,

Last edited by vestibule : 04/15/08 at 7:30 PM.
#8554SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• sordee
Did a few more sims starting at 5% haste, and still see increases benefiting from the Haste using Badge Weapons over Syphon. However as Freefall points out, I was unable to factor in the dps from the Syphon proc. Is there a generally accepted value for this?

New updated sim numbers modeling S3 weapons.
BaseStats again (no weapons):
AP= 1600
Crit = 27%
Hit = 15%
Haste = 5% (base)
ArP = 1000 (Big jump from earlier model to more reflect some T6 gear)
Expertise = 11 (Using Shard as one trinket)

Naked w/o stats with Dual 2.6 - 103.1 DPS = 1377DPS

Adding dual S3 stats:
AP + 34x2
Crit + 1%x2
Hit + .5%x2
ArP + 49x2

Dual S3 with right stats = 1441DPS

Now lets run a dual Badge Weapon:
AP + 44 + 44
Crit + 1% (23 agi)
Hit + 1.33% (OH)
Haste + 1.33 + 1.46

Dual Badge Weapon w/ stats = 1439

And with a mixed setup: (pre SW)
S3 MH + Badge OH
AP + 34 + 44
Crit + 1%
Hit + .5 + 1.33%
Haste + 1.46
ArP + 49

S3 MH + Badge OH = 1440 DPS

Two observations: S3 is generally better since you get freebie Stam and Resillience. But DPS wise is virtually the same as MH.
Playing with different values of starting Armor Penetration (or adding Curse of Weakness) affects how valuable the 40 ArP on each S3 1-H is worth.

I will contend at lower ArP, Badge weapons are better, and higher ArP S3 will pull ahead.
#8555SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Sordee - the Syphon proc is pretty negligible. Over the course of a full BT clear 2 weeks ago my syphon did 19k damage, less than 1% of my total damage for the entire evening.

I will say this - your shaman that said Rising Tide is worse than the ZA fist weapon is flat out wrong on that one.
#8556SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Philondra
Originally Posted by Morelis
If my memory serves me correctly the damage added by the AP bonus on the WF proc is not subject to the OH penalty, the weapon damage however is.
This is in response to Jessamy as well, and is provided simply for historical reasons:

Pre 2.1 and the WF5/WF4 bug fix, the 50% offhand damage penalty was being applied twice: once to the damage dealt by the two windfury attacks (which was not a bug) and once to the attack power gained by the strikes (which was a bug). In other words, the main hand was getting the full 445 AP, whereas the offhand was only getting 222.5 AP -- and then getting reduced further once the offhand penalty was factored in. Therefore, given the exact same weapons in both hands, OH windfury attacks were actually dealing slightly less than 50% of the MH damage, rather than the expected 50%.

There are several reasons why most of the community didn't notice that this was occuring:
1.) It was much less common to have two of the same weapon equipped because pre-2.1 the only decent slow offhand weapons were from arena, heroics, or Tempest Keep (Al'ar)
2.) At higher levels of gear, that AP bonus gets lost in the noise unless one is specifically looking for it
3.) Even if people used the same weapons for MH/OH, most of us Min/Maxers used WF5/WF4, meaning that we were expecting that our OH WF damage would be slightly less than 50% of our MH WF damage.

Last edited by Philondra : 04/15/08 at 9:17 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity
#8557SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Gehenna
Well, for a time now the shaman community has accepted a couple rules when considering weapons (unless I've missed the boat on that topic).

1: Slow Main hand weapons with high damage (syphon, talon) will perform well with WF and Stormstrike.

2: Slow off-hands can take less windfury procs from the main hand.

When looking at the very best choices, we know mounting vengeance is the best off-hand weapon, so will the badge main hand, creating a 2.5/2.6 scenario, outperform the higher damage of a S3 main hand in most situations? The main reason I would think this possible is the steadily increasing white damage numbers I have seen in recent WWS. I know I've gone from the low 40s to numbers around 50/51%.

Lastly, for two pages there was a rather drawn out conversation involving how weapon haste functions. It seems to me that haste should be rather simple to model with a simple asymptote right? At least its effects on white damage. Now, I haven't done much math for quite a few years, but I would think such a graph could demonstrate severe diminishing returns on haste at some (perhaps un-obtainable) point. Am i wrong?
#8558SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• sordee
Originally Posted by Malan
I will say this - your shaman that said Rising Tide is worse than the ZA fist weapon is flat out wrong on that one.
Right, and every thing I know tells me the same thing, so I thought he was ludicrous
But for reference, he pointed out this site, where someone has calculated MH/OH EP for many weapons:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman

And this was all in reference that he currently is using a Syphon/Rising Tide setup and was contemplating getting the Badge OH to replace the Rising Tide.
This is why I had to go to the sim directly to figure out the true numbers.
#8559SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Pitbuller
Dragonstrike + Mounting = 1832
Syphon + Mounting = 1828

Even dragonstrike want "not so easy to choose which is best weapon club"
We should be happy that we have so much "best" weapons. It's darn easy to get weapon novaday.

About Sim: Can you Yo model haste potion like trinkets([Abacus of Violent Odds]). It's kinda slow get pair of ep numbers one without haste potions and one whit 400haste rating and sum them up(7/8 + 1/8).
#8560SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Kletha
Originally Posted by sordee
Right, and every thing I know tells me the same thing, so I thought he was ludicrous
But for reference, he pointed out this site, where someone has calculated MH/OH EP for many weapons:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
Well, he also says that [Shiv of Exsanguination] is on 8th place for OH. This is a 1.8 speed dagger.
#8561SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1jrsama123
Like to see some real time data on S3 MH and MV OH

Ok thanks,
Did 1850 easily on Brutallus with 1 heroism. Sorry, didn't parse =(
#8562SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Atren
Originally Posted by Kletha
Well, he also says that [Shiv of Exsanguination] is on 8th place for OH. This is a 1.8 speed dagger.
Hmm, that dagger has lot of stats on as well as have clearly above others dps rating. But still, i do think it is too high in listing. Most likely culprit might be the speed modifier for his formula. Only way to verify would be to run them through simulator.
#8563SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Originally Posted by sordee
Right, and every thing I know tells me the same thing, so I thought he was ludicrous
But for reference, he pointed out this site, where someone has calculated MH/OH EP for many weapons:
Weapons Index Raiding Enhancements - Shaman
That website is a crock of shit.
#8564SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Shalas
weapon dps * (( main-hand EJ EP 9.03 /2.6 ) * speed)
Weapon speed for enhancement shaman does not work that way, and any calculation involving that is pretty much worthless. That significantly overestimates the impact of changing speed for some ranges, and significantly underestimates it for other ranges.
#8565SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Bragor
Originally Posted by Malan
That website is a crock of shit.
More like a complete overview of what is discussed on the blizzard forums. In Other Words, Bullshit.
#8566SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Jessamy
As far as I can tell, he took the EP values for 2.6 weapons, put them into a calculator or spreadsheet, and adjusted for differing weapon speeds. To quote the wiki,

The following values are only valid for a 2.6 speed weapon. EP would need to be recalculated for any other speeds. These are presented here because 2.6 is the most common speed for weapons.
I don't like the results his adjustment formula derived. Simulation would seem to be a more universal tool.

Edit: I also don't like how he only provides one column of "EJ EP" values. My shaman's gear is entry-level T5. It would be inappropriate for me to use T6 EP values to make gearing choices for upgrading my current gear.
#8567SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yakout
I think all that needs noted about that site's utility is that it puts [The Decapitator] above [Talon of the Phoenix] in for MH and [Breeching Comet] above [Rising Tide] for OH.
#8568SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1◊ Malan
Which was noted to him when he posted that stuff in here a few months ago. Its inaccurate, its misleading, nobody should be basing their gear off of that site. If you have a shaman doing so, they need a swift kick in the ass.
#8569SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Tornhoof
They are for certain, just look at any wws log and take a look at the min/max values.
#8570SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1
Edited onundefined
Tornhoof
I thought about Executioner a bit, the reason is quite simple, currently in weo2, executioner is a simple 0.35*840 armorPen (35% uptime), but ArmorPen gets better the more you get and so it's not a really a constant value of armorpen, but a short dps spike. The question is now how can I find a closed form to model this short dps spike.

The idea is simple: Take the dmg increase by 840 ArmorPen in percent, multiple with uptime (35%) and calculate the new armor reduction:

exec_armorpen := 840;
exec_uptime := 0.35;
armor_after := armor_before - exec_armorpen;
dmgincrease := ((armor_before + 10557.5)/(armor_after+10557.5) -1)*exec_uptime+1;
armor_final := solve((armor_before + 10557.5)/(armor_after_new+10557.5) = dmgincrease, armor_after_new);
armor_before := 7700 - 5*520 - 610 - 800;
armor_factor := 1 - (armor_final/(10557.5+armor_final));

the final equation is:
21115.*(20023.+2.*armor_before)/(4.*armor_before^2+81100.*armor_before+410370025.)
Example

armor_before = 7700 - 5*520 - 610 - 800 = 3690
armor_factor = .7572560188
armor_final = 3384.284202
So basically with a fully debuffed bossmob of 7700 armor executioner with 35% uptime is worth a static ~306 ArmorPenetration

The break even with mongoose depends on gear and additional armorPen and MobArmor but should be around 330 ArmorPen

Basically, with an Uptime of 35% it will never properly reach Mongoose with the current gear, an uptime of 40% is required to be beat Mongoose in all areas.
It will beat Mongoose with maximized Sunwell gear on low armor (6200 base armor) mobs though. No luck on high armor boss mobs though. Get's close.

Edit: simplified Equation for effective ArmorPen:

eff_armor_pen := exec_armorpen*exec_uptime*(2.*armor_before+21115.)/(21115.+2.*exec_armorpen*exec_uptime+2.*armor_before-2.*exec_armorpen)

Last edited by Tornhoof : 04/16/08 at 3:27 PM.
#8571SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Yo!
+ Changed default Boss dodge to 6.5% up from 5.6%
+ Added correct models for potions instead of static values
+ Enabled Band of Eternal Champion selection (1 ppm, 60s hidden cooldown)
+ Added Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve Scryer (15% chance for +100 expertise rating for 10 s, 45 s hidden cooldown)
+ Added Shattered Sun Pendant of Might Scryer (15% chance for 350 damage, uses melee combat table, melee& crit damage multipliers, 45 s hidden cooldown, can not proc on-hit abilities, reports as white damage in the sim)
+ Added Shattered Sun Pendant of Might Aldor (15% chance for +200 ap for 10 s, 45 s hidden cooldown)
#8572SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1• Disquette
Thank you Yo!.
#8573SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Totalitar
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but are you saying that if I have over 330 ArP executioner is better then Mongoose?

I have 679 armor penetration and the sim still shows 2xmongoose as about 4dps better.
#8574SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1Ardonomus
Just picked up a [Mounting Vengeance], and I ran the sim a few times trying to figure out which weapon would be the superior choice for the main hand in combination with this new toy. What I found out was that it doesn't really matter which weapon I use, I tried [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Cleaver].

Even on different armor bosses, these weapons in combination with the MV would perform approximately the same. Are my values screwed or is this what others are experiencing as well?
#8575SourcePosted onPatch 2.4.1cloakedling
Windfury confusion

I am slightly confused by the mechanics of windfury and was hoping that someone could inform me. Why is it that the damage from dual-windfury greatly exceeds that of the sum of using windfury on just one weapon (ie windfury on just mainhand might produce wf dps of 100, just on offhand wf = 60dps, but windfury on both weapons would produce wf damage of 200dps)? At first I thought it was just a by-product of increased flurry and ua uptime, but similar results occur even when disabling those talents on Yo's simulator. Any insights into the functioning of windfury would be greatly appreciated.